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[Music]
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Kiwis love a thirst.
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Like Finn, we're making waves.
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[Music]
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Generate switch online today.
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Cecilia Robinson, welcome to my podcast.
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Thank you for having me. I I don't know
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if anyone's made this connection with
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you before, but um very very strong
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Simon and Garuncle link. Yes. I love it.
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Yeah. It's actually surprising how many
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people actually don't. Maybe it's just
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an age thing, but yes, I certainly hear
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it's Cecilia Robinson. It says a lot,
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right? Yeah. Cuz Yeah. What was your
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name before you married Mr. Robinson? It
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was Hall. I definitely feel like it
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upgraded from being like a hallway
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effectively to Robinson. It feels Yeah,
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that was an improvement. Yeah. For
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anyone that doesn't know what we're
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talking about, two of Simon and
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Garuncle's biggest songs. Cecilia. Not
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know though, but I don't know. There's
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all sorts of different people listening.
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Cecilia and Mrs. Robinson. Two absolute
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bangers. And you've you've got the the
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double barrel. They are they are great
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songs. They're good hits. Yeah. So, um
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absolute powerhouse on the podcast
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today. Um there's just an embarrassment
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of awards. New Zealand Innovator of the
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Year 2024, um Supreme Winner, Woman of
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Influence Awards, Next Magazine
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Businesswoman of the Year, Young
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Entrepreneur of the Year. Um that feels
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a long time ago. That's that's really
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reaching. And um the her h businesswoman
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of the year 2012. Um you've done so much
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over so many years. Yeah, it is feel
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like it's been a long time. Yeah. Yeah.
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What's um one thing that you wish people
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would stop asking you in interviews and
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what's something that you wish people
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would ask you in interviews? Oh, I think
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that's really interesting. I mean
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overall I think people are amazing
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because they really ask insightful
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questions and so you know I like to talk
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about healthcare because I think you
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know we don't have enough people talking
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about what's actually happening in
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health side. I want to talk more about
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what we're actually seeing um and how we
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can actually you know part of our
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purpose at TED is to help uh you know
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New Zealanders be the healthiest people
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in the world and so I love kind of
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talking about that and talking about you
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know that recent piece of work maybe
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than going too kind of far back into the
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the past. So you like talking about
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yourself or you just prefer more to talk
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about what you do? Well I think that's a
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really interesting question as well.
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Well, I think part of what you do is a
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story of who you are and so it's
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relevant, right? Like why did we go into
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healthcare um feeds into the story about
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our life, you know, and so that's
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definitely relevant and so kind of enjoy
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talking about, you know, aspects of that
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and there's always things that are hard
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to talk about, but I think you have to
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have those hard conversations as well.
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Yeah. So I find by having these
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conversations with people, you can in in
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a way almost like deconstruct success.
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Yeah. You work backwards and figure out
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how someone was so successful. Um, yeah,
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another successful New Zealander that
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I've had on the podcast, Sir Peter Beck
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from Rocket Lab. Um, he had a quote, and
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I want to share this with you and see if
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you agree. Um, ask any founder running a
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company, it does feel like a fire hose
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of [ __ ] 100% of the time. I totally
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agree with that. Really a fire hose of
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[ __ ] Yes, it does. Yeah. I mean, I
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normally say it feels like we're
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drinking from a fire hose, but yeah,
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that is what it feels like on a
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dayto-day, week to week, month to month,
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year to year basis. Yeah, that's it. He
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said 100% of the time and I thought
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surely that's that's drastic. No, it is.
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I mean I feel like I'm in the middle of
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that currently and my way of dealing
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with that my coping mechanism is to
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become incredibly calm basically. Um
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because otherwise you just see all the
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things that have the potential to go
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wrong or the things that might not work
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out. And so I think being an eternal
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optimist while you're drinking [ __ ] is
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is kind of the most important thing.
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Right. Well, why why do you keep going
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then? Look, it's a really good question.
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I think for me the short answer is this
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is my probably last startup that I'll
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do. You know, we've landed in a place
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that is really purposeful in an area
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that we feel like we can drive a real
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big difference. And so I don't think I'd
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do another startup after this. I don't
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think my nerves can cope any longer
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because it is really hard. And I think
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that the level of scrutiny and public
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criticism, all of these things that come
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with putting yourself out there, you
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know, you can only go so long, you know.
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So I think that's that's part of it,
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too. M I I promise this will be the last
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um name I drop in the podcast, but um I
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had had Anna Mobre on as well and she I
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asked her the same sort of question. I'm
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like, "Okay, you cashed out of Zuru. You
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got a a billion dollars if what we read
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is to be believed. Um why not just kick
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back? Yeah. Go on the board of trustees
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for your kids or just do some altruistic
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sort of things." And she sort of
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described it as um like Zuru being a
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mountain to climb. Yeah. And there's
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many more mountains that she wishes to
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climb. feel like it's the same sort of
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thing with you in a way. Yeah,
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certainly. I think for us, you know, at
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the end of the day, what we really are
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focused on is we want to do things that,
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you know, are really purposeful and can
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drive change. And so, you know, big
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exponential change. And so, you know, my
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husband and I, you know, tackling
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healthcare, it's one of the most
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complicated issues that we can see in
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New Zealand, but it also has so much
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opportunity to actually be able to
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positively change, you know, um,
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everything for the future of our people
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and for our Tamariki. So I think that
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bigger purpose that it's not just about
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you, you know, it's not you lounging on
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a yacht in the med and thinking life is
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great. You have to actually look at the
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society that you want to build around
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you for your kids, you know, and the
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legacy and for us that legacy is really
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important.
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Could you have, you know, the legacy and
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make your kids proud and still do the
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yacht in the Mediterranean? Yeah. I
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mean, like I feel like there's
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definitely there is common ground there.
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There's definitely, you know, you can,
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you know, there is merit in in taking a
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bit of time off, I think. And look, we
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did that, you know. um we have done that
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in periods and you know we've enjoyed
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that right and I still there are things
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that I don't compromise on in my
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day-to-day life and the way that I live
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and I was just saying to you outside
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that you know I do come in to work you
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know at like 9:15 I drop my kids at
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kindi you know I pick them up um in the
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afternoon from school and activities
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we're really present parents and like
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that comes at the cost of working late
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into the evening or on weekends and you
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know the way that you know we balance
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our life is that we're intentfully
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really present with our kids and they
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expect us to show up for them and that's
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a really important part of, you know,
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our happiness. Is part of it for you
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like um a boredom thing like you need to
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be active, you need to be busy cuz I
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mean you I'm guessing after after the
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success of my food bag, you could have
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just kicked back and done nothing if you
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wished. Yes, we could have chosen to do
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that. And I think for us, you know, we
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did that for maybe 6 months. Okay. So,
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we did quite a bit of travel. Um we took
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some time off. Uh you know, we you know,
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did lots of things like that. And it did
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become boring. Like I kind of figured
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out that I thought I'd start drinking
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coffee, but you know, still not a coffee
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drinker. I thought I'd start playing
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tennis and turns out I'm pretty rubbish
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at it. I'm lucky that I haven't taken
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out any windows in the process. So like
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you do find stuff that you think that
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you're going to do or spend your time
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doing. And part of the reason actually
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why we founded 10 was because we did
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look at a lot of kind of charitable
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vehicles and we did kind of go ahead and
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make a lot of donations in that space.
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And what we found was that it was
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actually better to apply our skill set
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alongside our capital to try to drive
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change rather than just kind of provide
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the capital and not be able to make a
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big impact. And so that's how we landed
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where we are today. Well, you've got so
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much to offer, don't you? And skills and
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lessons and learnings and um you'd hope
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so. Yeah. Tend you've mentioned Tend a
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couple of times. Um we will get into
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that deeper later on, but um yeah,
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elevator pitch. What is what is tend? So
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tend is a technology powered healthcare
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company. um that is transforming the way
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that we're delivering healthcare in New
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Zealand. Like it's it's a it's a
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fantastic kind of once in a generation
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opportunity to really think about how we
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re rebuild primary care. And so that's
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what I spend my day today doing like how
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do we solve this crisis that we have on
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our hands. To use the the mountain an
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analogy, this is a big one. Yeah, it's a
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huge mountain to climb. And I think
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often when you start climbing those
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mountains, you might be a little bit
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naive, like super curious and a little
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bit naive about the challenge ahead. I
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think probably without a little bit of
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navity and a lot of curiosity, you
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probably wouldn't get climbing. And so,
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you know, I look at it now versus where
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we were when we started back in 2019 and
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and it's been, you know, one hell of a
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journey. Yeah, cuz you've been going
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with 10 for like 5 years now. Yeah, it's
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a long time. So, if uh if if this was
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Everest, are you at base camp yet or
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you? Yeah. I mean, I keep saying to
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people in terms of driving change, we're
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probably only 5% of the way through
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where we want to get to. And so it's a
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huge mountain ahead, but we've really
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laid the foundation and the groundwork
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on Ash. And I think that's what's been,
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you know, just so powerful is actually
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having that platform now to be able to
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drive, you know, significant change.
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I heard in another interview you talking
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about um ideas and startups. You said
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it's 1% the idea, 99% of the execution.
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Absolutely. Yeah. What other ideas have
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you had that you never implemented? I
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have I have like a a list of things, you
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know, uh really when we came out of my
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food bag, we looked at kind of like
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starting like a mentoring company or
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something like like like mentor me or
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something to actually be able to um kind
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of give, you know, give more time back
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into the community. I mean, we already
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do a lot of that work kind of for the
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Kings Trust in New Zealand, but how you
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kind of formalize that. But what I like
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is tackling really big systematic issues
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and I think we've landed in the space
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where we can look at things like
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healthcare and see a lot of the problems
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that are contributing to where we are
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today but also the solutions leading
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through that and that's what is you know
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so interesting is solving some of those
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big ticket items
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as well as t another thing you've been
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busy on at the moment is this um B416
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campaign um to make social media illegal
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for under 16 or unac
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So what we're looking to do is introduce
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a minimum age for social media of 16.
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And so, you know, like there's been a
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lot of research over a long period of
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time that has demonstrated that there is
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something that's happened in our young
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people from when the introduction of the
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smartphone when the camera was
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introduced. Um, and also when social
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media really started to take off, right?
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And we're seeing these um exploding
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mental health presentations and you
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know, one in every four teens in New
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Zealand um is presenting with severe or
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very severe mental health illness and
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that was one of the eye opening moments
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that I had coming into healthcare. I was
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shocked at how many young people um
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we're seeing in our primary healthcare
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system. And what you have to understand
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about primary care is that while primary
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care also incorporates mental health,
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that's not been the role for a lot of
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GPS. And in fact, a lot of GPS will say
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that, you know, I came here to kind of
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treat, you know, physical injuries and
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while my role has expanded, this is not
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what I was qualified to do. And so, you
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know, hearing and listening to the
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narrative and trying to understand, you
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know, what what is the source of the
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problem here? And I think it's really
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interesting how we go out of our way to
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really protect our children in the real
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world. You know, you remember and like I
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love that you relate to this cuz
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sometimes I say this and people glaze
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over, but you know the video video store
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days where you know there'd be like that
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18 plus area that was like you know the
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area that had corn and you know squeaky
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doors and it was a little bit creepy,
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right? And you know there are ratings on
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movies about how we think that children
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should be watching different content
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depending on what their age is. So, for
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a long time, we've gone out of our way
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to protect our kids. And, you know,
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we've got a minimum driving age. We've
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got a minimum age for you to purchase
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alcohol, a minimum age for you to um,
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you know, purchase tobacco products.
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But, there's no minimum aid for social
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media. And the reality of it is that it
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is changing the way that the chemistry
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in our children's brain is developing.
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And that is not a good thing from what
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we're seeing in in in the in the health
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system. And so, we cannot afford as a
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country to have, you know, the ambulance
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at the bottom of the cliff. we we have
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to put the fence up and you know I think
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the most pragmatic way to do that is to
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really change social norming around it
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and by social morning norming I mean you
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know it's really hard to be the parent
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that says no to your kids like it's hard
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to be the one person that steps up and
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goes actually you can't have Snapchat
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and of of course I am the parent that
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says no to that but the consequence of
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that is social exclusion so I think what
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we need to do is introduce a minimum age
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to enable parents to have a tool to say
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no and you know aspirationally work
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towards onboarding you know 80 90% of
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our population onto this idea that
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actually we need to protect them not
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just in the physical world but also in
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the online world.
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Yeah. When I heard that I thought it was
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an absolute no-brainer. It seems to make
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common sense. But then then I saw some
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um a couple of posts online from um Jazz
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Thornton and Genevie Moira from Voices
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of Hope. Yeah. Who've done a lot in the
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mental health space and they offered
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sort of a counter argument and I thought
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okay I can see it from their point too.
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Now I suppose that's that's just me. I'm
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moldable. But their sort of thing is
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there's a lot of, you know, people that
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that feel, you know, I don't know,
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isolated or marginalized and social
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media lets them find a connection or
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find those people. Well, actually, the
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research actually demonstrates that the
00:12:32
children who are most at risk actually
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suffer more um harm from being online
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and being in those environments. So,
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while it might be a support network
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currently for those that are
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experiencing it, it's not a go forward
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position. And so we also have to ask
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questions around how some of the you
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know mental health charities and those
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types of entities are funded in this
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country because you know what's
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interesting about the likes of you know
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social media companies is that a lot of
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them are acting in a way like tobacco
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companies have been for a long period of
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time right and so they're trying to fund
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initiatives to you know um put the put
00:13:06
the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
00:13:07
right and so you have to ask questions
00:13:09
around why is that happening and you
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know do we genuinely believe as adults
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that this is the safe place for our
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children. And you know, you and I talked
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about it before we started filming
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because I think most parents, most
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adults will look themselves in the
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mirror and say, "I am addicted to social
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media. I'm addicted to my phone." And I
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recognize that that's a problem. But how
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do you break that habit? How do you
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break that cycle? And what children
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actually need is they need the
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one-on-one engagement. They need to be
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out with a ball on the grounds on a
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weekend and spending 42 hours online,
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which is the average for New Zealand
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children, which is an outofdate um
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statistic from 42 hours. children in New
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Zealand spend 42 hours online per week
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per week and so that is a full-time job
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and you know they're getting you know
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290 notifications a day and again I was
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saying to you walking in that I feel
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guilt because you know my friends will
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message me on WhatsApp on Instagram on
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Facebook Messenger they'll text me
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they'll email me and I'm constantly
00:14:04
lagging behind and I'm an adult dealing
00:14:06
with that pressure but it's not a
00:14:08
pressure that we should be putting on
00:14:09
our children while they still have
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developing brains right and So the
00:14:13
reason why I came into this was me very
00:14:16
much from a public health point of view.
00:14:17
I was becoming a mom of a of a you know
00:14:20
a 10-year-old or 11 year old at the
00:14:21
time. He's turning 13 this year. And I
00:14:23
started looking at it going this really
00:14:24
doesn't make sense. And so it is quite
00:14:27
hard to understand the problem if you're
00:14:29
not an adult um seeing what these
00:14:32
children are battling on a day-to-day
00:14:34
basis. And so is there a space online
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for children um to be able to have
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conversations about you know their life
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and their identity and all these things?
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Does it need to happen before the age of
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16? Probably not, right? And so at
00:14:46
before that age, we need to be
00:14:47
encouraging them to be engaging with
00:14:49
their communities, you know, doing
00:14:51
sports, you know, reading books, you
00:14:53
know, listening to music, being bored.
00:14:56
Isn't boredom one of the most wonderful
00:14:57
things in the world? That's totally
00:14:58
underrated, right? And so those are the
00:15:01
types of things we need to be bringing
00:15:02
into the conversation about how we, you
00:15:04
know, mentally equip and, you know,
00:15:06
build emotional resilience in our young
00:15:08
people. Um because as someone who's
00:15:10
running a startup, I can tell you the
00:15:11
qualities that I'm looking for in people
00:15:13
coming on board with tend. It's like I
00:15:15
need people who are emotionally
00:15:16
resilient. I need people who are able to
00:15:18
actually deal with adversity. And we're
00:15:19
not building that well in the online
00:15:21
world, you know. Um so yeah, that's how
00:15:23
I think about it.
00:15:26
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um I think everyone
00:15:28
to some degree is subjected to some sort
00:15:30
of bullying at school. E like it's I
00:15:32
kids are just nasty. But like when I was
00:15:34
growing up um home was sort of like a
00:15:36
sanctuary like say you know it was the
00:15:38
the the reprieve for a few hours a day.
00:15:40
So I can't imagine what it's like you
00:15:41
know the bullies having access to you
00:15:43
24/7. This is what our pediatrician Dr.
00:15:45
Mines diva talks about and he talks
00:15:48
about what he's seeing in the hospital
00:15:49
system currently and you know he talks
00:15:51
about how children used to go home and
00:15:53
as you say it was a safe haven but
00:15:54
what's actually happening now is that
00:15:56
that is a time that we see most and
00:15:58
worse presentations in our system
00:16:00
because over the school week you know
00:16:02
children have an opportunity to see each
00:16:04
other the next day and work out their
00:16:05
issues right but the problem is school
00:16:07
holidays weekends it just becomes really
00:16:09
nasty and spirals um online and there's
00:16:12
no opportunity for these children to
00:16:14
kind of resolve their issues in person
00:16:15
and so it spirals and it gets out of
00:16:17
control and then they see that
00:16:19
presenting in the hospital system and I
00:16:20
think it's actually really interesting
00:16:21
here because you know we're calling for
00:16:23
more uh resource for mental health right
00:16:25
and that's a really important part
00:16:27
although you know as a country we
00:16:28
actually fund health well and so if you
00:16:30
go back to 2018 we were funding health
00:16:33
about 17 billion a year we found at 30
00:16:35
billion now but our healthcare outcomes
00:16:36
are worse and so you have to say how do
00:16:39
you push the fence at the top of the
00:16:40
cliff how do you ensure that we actually
00:16:42
have appropriate resource available And
00:16:45
we cannot burn out our workforce in that
00:16:47
process. And so that's kind of how I
00:16:49
think about it. Like we we can't just,
00:16:51
you know, we know already what the harm
00:16:53
we're seeing from social media. What
00:16:55
will that look like in 5 years time if
00:16:57
we do nothing? I don't think we're in a
00:16:59
position when we can do nothing. You
00:17:01
know, I genuinely don't. Well, good on
00:17:03
you and thanks for this. And it's going
00:17:05
to be very interesting to follow the
00:17:06
progress of B416 and see where it lands.
00:17:09
Right. Let's go back to um the early
00:17:11
years. Yes. Of Cecilia Robinson. So, um,
00:17:14
you're from Sweden? Yes. Yeah. What are
00:17:17
you, what are your early memories of
00:17:19
Sweden? What are your earliest sort of
00:17:20
memories? I, um, I mean, Sweden is a
00:17:23
really interesting place to grow up and
00:17:24
I feel incredibly privileged to live,
00:17:27
you know, you know, and have been been
00:17:29
from Sweden. But I guess part of my
00:17:30
early memories is that my dad was from
00:17:32
the UK, and I always had a really strong
00:17:34
sense of belonging, not necessarily to
00:17:36
Sweden, but more probably to the
00:17:37
Anglo-Saxon culture. And so I often felt
00:17:40
a little bit out of place, you know,
00:17:42
like I didn't quite fit in in Sweden,
00:17:43
didn't quite fit in in the UK, didn't
00:17:45
quite understand, you know, you know,
00:17:46
where I would find my path in life. And
00:17:48
so, you know, while it was a really
00:17:50
amazing place to grow up and Sweden's
00:17:52
got so many fantastic things about it,
00:17:54
you know, in terms of how we think about
00:17:56
public funding, how our school systems
00:17:58
are structured broadly from a from a um
00:18:00
from a taxpayer point of view, you know,
00:18:02
we've got really high taxes, but that's
00:18:03
kind of rewarded through infrastructure
00:18:05
and through public schooling and through
00:18:07
our health system, etc., right? Um, but
00:18:10
there's also lots of, you know, over
00:18:11
time there's become quite a lot of issue
00:18:13
socialists in Sweden. So since, you
00:18:15
know, I moved to New Zealand, you know,
00:18:16
the nicest thing I think someone ever
00:18:18
said about me was that while I wasn't
00:18:19
New Zealand born, I've been New Zealand
00:18:21
made and so this is my country and I
00:18:23
100% feel like I belong here. So I found
00:18:26
that. Oh no, we we're very lucky to have
00:18:28
you. Um yeah, you've made a massive
00:18:29
difference to New Zealand society. Um so
00:18:32
so your parents are both teachers and
00:18:34
I've heard you describe yourself as um
00:18:35
like lower to middle class. Yeah. Um
00:18:38
yeah. What does lower to middle class
00:18:40
look like in Sweden? Well, probably
00:18:41
middle class, right? It's probably where
00:18:42
you know we belong. I mean my parents
00:18:44
worked really really hard. Money was
00:18:45
always a conversation that was difficult
00:18:47
in our family. And so, you know, yeah,
00:18:49
and I think constantly, you know, a
00:18:51
source of like argument and discussion
00:18:53
and friction, right? And so, I remember
00:18:55
thinking when I was quite young from an
00:18:57
early age that I wanted to grow up and
00:18:58
be financially free. And my husband and
00:19:00
I was actually just having this
00:19:01
conversation with me on the weekend and
00:19:02
he was saying to me like he was talking
00:19:04
to me about before 16 and the drivers
00:19:06
behind while I was doing it. And when I
00:19:08
met him when I was only 20, I'd said to
00:19:10
him, I wanted to be a lawyer and I
00:19:11
wanted to be, you know, I wanted to work
00:19:13
for the prosecution. I wanted to work on
00:19:14
the side of good. I like that's where I
00:19:16
wanted to spend my life. But I also
00:19:18
wanted to ensure that I had, you know,
00:19:20
that I was in an occupation where I was
00:19:21
paid well, but I could also make change.
00:19:23
Right? So he's like, "What you're doing
00:19:24
now isn't different from where you
00:19:25
started, just not just just not how you
00:19:27
imagined it quite right." And so it was
00:19:29
a good reminder of, you know, how you
00:19:31
know, you shape your conversation over
00:19:32
time and how you shape, you know, the
00:19:35
maybe the dreams that you had into
00:19:36
something different, but it still lands
00:19:37
you where you thought you'd be, right?
00:19:39
So yeah, it was what about the family
00:19:41
your family values and and mindset like
00:19:43
uh was there anything to suggest that
00:19:44
you'd be an entrepreneur or was it was
00:19:46
just like the fear of poverty or knowing
00:19:47
that you wanted something? Well, I think
00:19:49
like my dad my parents always um worked
00:19:52
really hard. So my dad had his own
00:19:54
company. So my dad is a teacher or not
00:19:57
fundamentally actually has a degree in
00:19:59
economics from um a university in
00:20:01
London. But he when he came to Sweden at
00:20:03
like 25 didn't speak the language had
00:20:06
met my mom you know 10 or so a little
00:20:08
bit less less than a decade earlier and
00:20:10
had to start from scratch right because
00:20:11
your a degree means nothing in a country
00:20:13
where you don't speak the language and
00:20:15
so he had to learn Swedish from scratch
00:20:17
um you know try to integrate into
00:20:19
society which was very different than
00:20:21
you know um in the 70s versus what you
00:20:24
know it is today it's much easier to be
00:20:25
someone from the UK and Sweden now and
00:20:28
what happened with him was that he went
00:20:29
away and he and he and he realized He
00:20:31
actually learned Swedish. He speaks
00:20:32
better Swedish than I do. And he's very
00:20:34
kind of eloquent both in writing and um
00:20:36
the way he articulates himself. And I
00:20:38
discovered a niche in terms of being
00:20:40
able to kind of teach um business
00:20:42
English to corporates like Scania. And
00:20:44
so he'd translate kind of the difficult
00:20:46
technical language between Swedish and
00:20:48
English and had his own business. But I
00:20:50
remember vividly my dad getting up at
00:20:52
5:00 a.m. in the morning every day and
00:20:53
not getting home until 7 or 8:00 at
00:20:55
night, right? And he'd drive an hour in
00:20:57
each direction. He was always commuting,
00:20:59
always on the road, working really hard.
00:21:01
And my mom was working as a teacher at a
00:21:03
school that was maybe maybe about 20
00:21:04
minutes half an hour away from our house
00:21:06
and you know just that kind of
00:21:08
discipline around working really hard
00:21:10
and it is different living in Sweden.
00:21:11
You've got a whole different you know
00:21:12
conditions you know you're dealing with
00:21:14
snow and ice and grit and so the
00:21:15
environment is quite different on a
00:21:17
day-to-day basis how you live your life
00:21:18
and you know my parents always you know
00:21:21
showed up and was you know they were
00:21:22
really clear around the fact that you
00:21:24
know having a career working hard was
00:21:26
really important because if you don't
00:21:28
you know things can quickly spiral away
00:21:30
from you. So yeah, it wasn't necessarily
00:21:32
I wouldn't say it was an expectation,
00:21:34
but it was certainly part of the way
00:21:35
that we were brought up, you know, to be
00:21:37
resilient. You know, biking home by
00:21:39
yourself was, you know, the common
00:21:40
thing. You'd get home and you'd make
00:21:41
yourself afternoon tea. And I remember I
00:21:43
went through this phase and it must have
00:21:44
been about 9 and I was responsible for
00:21:46
cooking dinner and like we'd literally
00:21:48
eat tomato soup like every night of the
00:21:50
week because I was cooking dinner and it
00:21:51
was the only thing I knew how to cook.
00:21:53
And so yeah, keep teaching kids
00:21:56
independence and resilience through, you
00:21:58
know, allowing them to be able to do
00:22:00
different things was important. Why
00:22:01
don't you just go to IKEA for lunch
00:22:03
every day? That's a good question. I
00:22:05
mean, they do amazing meatballs. And I'm
00:22:06
not going to lie, I'm very excited about
00:22:08
IKEA coming and having meatballs for
00:22:10
lunch. My kids are like amped. In fact,
00:22:12
you will probably laugh about this, but
00:22:14
I literally did have Swedish. So, I
00:22:15
packed their lunch boxes this morning
00:22:17
and made them. They have mash with
00:22:19
Swedish meatballs and lingberry jam in
00:22:21
their lunch boxes today. So yeah, that
00:22:23
was a that's a lunch and I'm a little
00:22:25
bit jealous actually. How good. Um, so
00:22:27
yeah, you see you pursued your dream.
00:22:29
You went to law school. You went to
00:22:30
university to study law. Very briefly.
00:22:32
Yeah. Yeah. How long? Um so I um started
00:22:36
a degree in Sweden and then um that was
00:22:40
about you know maybe three or four
00:22:41
months and then I came back to New
00:22:42
Zealand and I was meant to just kind of
00:22:44
come back and travel here and then ended
00:22:45
up staying and then I started a degree
00:22:47
at Oakland University and at the same
00:22:49
time would start at Opal Link and um in
00:22:51
the end probably after a year or two of
00:22:53
study maybe 18 months of Oakland
00:22:55
University studying u my mentor at the
00:22:57
time said you can't do everything you
00:22:58
can't work full-time have OP link
00:23:00
full-time and study full-time that's a
00:23:01
lot of full-time that's like 20 hours a
00:23:03
week and so what something he has to
00:23:05
give and what are you going to give up
00:23:06
and I was like university. He was like
00:23:08
that sounds sensible. So oh okay that
00:23:10
makes sense. I I thought um I thought
00:23:12
there might be some story like you you
00:23:13
studied studied law and then you
00:23:15
realized you were disillusioned and okay
00:23:17
so so the issue was you were like an
00:23:19
entrepreneur and a student at the same
00:23:21
time. Yeah. Oh okay. I didn't realize it
00:23:22
was and also worked at the same time and
00:23:24
so I was trying to do everything. What
00:23:25
what what job were you doing? I was
00:23:27
working as a as an administrator for a
00:23:29
company called Beyond Recruitment at
00:23:30
that point. um just off Simon Street
00:23:32
quite convenient because university just
00:23:33
down the road so I'd be able to kind of
00:23:34
juggle both right and um I was quite
00:23:37
speedy in the way that I did my work and
00:23:38
I kind of kept asking them to give me
00:23:40
more but they didn't have much more work
00:23:41
and so in the end I actually end up
00:23:43
starting OP from their offices because I
00:23:46
was bored I'd get through the work that
00:23:47
I was meant to do in a day in a couple
00:23:49
of hours and then I just started
00:23:51
dabbling with other stuff so thanks
00:23:53
beyond recruitment. Yeah. So, um, so
00:23:57
from what I can gather, you moved to New
00:23:58
Zealand. Um, you met your husband the
00:24:01
day you arrived. Yeah. The night I
00:24:02
arrived. Yeah. Through through your he's
00:24:05
a friend of your brothers. Yeah. So, the
00:24:07
story kind of goes, my brother moved to
00:24:08
New Zealand first and um he had a
00:24:10
girlfriend that he him and him him and
00:24:13
his girlfriend moved to New Zealand and
00:24:14
then they kind of broke up and she went
00:24:15
back to Sweden and I was quite concerned
00:24:17
about him at that point. I was concerned
00:24:19
about him being alone in this, you know,
00:24:20
new country and not having a good
00:24:21
support mechanism in place. And so I
00:24:24
asked him from a um kind of keeping tabs
00:24:26
on him point of view to give me the
00:24:28
details of one of his mates and I'd
00:24:29
connect with him and talk to him
00:24:30
regularly about whether you know how he
00:24:32
was tracking. And so he actually gave me
00:24:34
James' contact details. So we actually
00:24:35
started chatting for MSN 6 months before
00:24:37
I came to New Zealand. And it kind of
00:24:39
started out us talking about my brother
00:24:40
and how he was going and what they were
00:24:42
doing and, you know, evolved into, you
00:24:46
know, deeper conversations about kind of
00:24:48
all the things that I guess you don't
00:24:49
explore for a long time in your
00:24:50
relationships like politics, religion,
00:24:52
having kids, and then when I arrived in
00:24:54
New Zealand, we fell in love. So yeah,
00:24:56
that was kind of cool. Oh, so you were
00:24:57
having these conversations over MSN
00:24:59
before we'd ever met. Right. Right.
00:25:02
Okay. So it was almost like almost like
00:25:03
a pen pal situation kind of. Yeah. Very
00:25:05
like modern day pen pal. Yeah. So when
00:25:07
when you got here, were you excited
00:25:08
about meeting him? Because did you know
00:25:10
what he looked like? I did. He was
00:25:11
definitely cute. So yeah. Right. There
00:25:13
would have been social media then in
00:25:14
terms of like MySpace or Bieber. Oh
00:25:16
yeah, totally. But we weren't on it like
00:25:18
Did you know what he looked like or I
00:25:19
did? Yeah, I did know. Yeah. Right.
00:25:21
Yeah. So did you do you think um in
00:25:23
hindsight you or him were falling in
00:25:25
love with over the messaging? I don't
00:25:27
know. I mean uh I mean you know gosh I
00:25:31
probably you know I yeah potentially
00:25:33
like at least starting to like each
00:25:34
other and enjoy each other's company and
00:25:36
being able to have quite open
00:25:37
conversations. So when you were flying
00:25:39
here did you have sort of butterflies? I
00:25:41
was definitely interested in meeting him
00:25:42
although again like I kind of I I was
00:25:44
definitely it was very um you know the
00:25:46
conversations that we had were very much
00:25:47
in in regards to kind of broad stuff and
00:25:49
it never kind of passed any you know
00:25:51
into another area until we you know we
00:25:53
met in person. I also, you know, I
00:25:54
actually probably had a boyfriend back
00:25:56
in Sweden at that point. At that point,
00:25:57
that probably wouldn't have been, you
00:25:59
know, the right way to go down. Oh. Oh,
00:26:01
what happened to him? Did you Did you
00:26:02
jump before you got on the plane or
00:26:04
borderline? Yeah, definitely didn't. No
00:26:06
comment on this one. Were you not your
00:26:08
proudest moment? Probably not entirely.
00:26:10
So, yeah. Right. So, um, this is a great
00:26:13
story, eh? Yeah, it's a good story.
00:26:15
Yeah, especially like you're still
00:26:16
together. You got three kids. You've
00:26:17
been you've set up these amazing
00:26:18
business. We've been together like half
00:26:19
our half my life. So, we met when I was
00:26:21
20. And so actually in September this
00:26:23
year, we would have been together for
00:26:25
half my life. Yeah. So So when you get
00:26:27
to New Zealand and you meet, it's like
00:26:28
it's a fairly instant sort of Yeah. I
00:26:30
mean within like I think uh you know we
00:26:33
we kind of discussed went back and forth
00:26:35
and you know started seeing each other
00:26:37
but then I was always going to go back
00:26:39
to Sweden and Yeah. And then but yeah,
00:26:41
my husband is quite good like he kind of
00:26:43
nailed me down and asked me to be his
00:26:44
girlfriend and you know and then you
00:26:46
know 6 months or so later you know asked
00:26:48
me to move in with him and um you know
00:26:50
we were married by the time I was 23 and
00:26:52
so it was you know it was a whirlwind
00:26:54
and you know what I've been really
00:26:56
grateful for is just the fact that I get
00:26:57
to do every day with my best friend like
00:26:59
we know each other inside and out. We
00:27:00
understand each other's stories you know
00:27:02
we trust each other implicitly. we get
00:27:04
to do everything together and he's so
00:27:06
incredibly humble in regards to the work
00:27:08
that we do cuz we've always done it
00:27:10
together and somehow I end up fronting
00:27:11
it. It's not necessarily because that's
00:27:13
my comfortable spot either. Um but
00:27:15
that's how it's turned out and you know
00:27:17
he contributes just as much as I do work
00:27:19
alongside each other every day managing
00:27:21
different sides of our businesses
00:27:22
throughout this entire period and um and
00:27:24
yeah we're just lucky to do it together.
00:27:26
Yeah, you're a good team. So I'm sorry
00:27:28
just skipping back a couple of steps.
00:27:30
Did you break up with the guy in Sweden
00:27:32
or I did actually break up? No, my
00:27:34
girlfriend's in New Zealand. Yeah. No,
00:27:36
there was definitely, you know, um there
00:27:38
was definitely some conversations that
00:27:40
were had once I came into New Zealand
00:27:41
and realized that I had met someone
00:27:42
different, you know, and so yeah, you
00:27:45
know, um yeah, you've it's an
00:27:47
interesting phase to go through. Um
00:27:50
yeah, how how do you think uh your life
00:27:52
and career would look now if you hadn't
00:27:53
met James and and vice versa? Yeah,
00:27:55
completely different, you know. I think
00:27:57
you're a formidable team, eh? We've done
00:27:58
all these businesses together. Yeah, and
00:28:00
we do it really well together. And I
00:28:01
think, you know, I am in naturally the
00:28:02
risk taker and he is, you know, a really
00:28:05
good person to, you know, risk manage.
00:28:08
Although, you know, great entrepreneurs
00:28:10
are really great risk ma managers. Like,
00:28:12
you know, you have to be able to
00:28:13
understand and manage your risk, right?
00:28:14
That's your job. But I've probably got a
00:28:16
higher risk appetite than what he does.
00:28:18
And so, we balance each other out really
00:28:20
well. You know, we found a rhythm of
00:28:22
working together that we established
00:28:23
back in Opelink days, which has kind of
00:28:26
remained true to this day. um through my
00:28:28
food bag and and tend where we manage
00:28:31
quite distinctly different sides of the
00:28:32
business but we work really closely
00:28:33
together and so you know I think it
00:28:36
drives a culture inside your leadership
00:28:38
team of really strong collaboration
00:28:39
because it's not like you know a king or
00:28:42
queen sitting on top of a council making
00:28:43
decisions you're actually working so
00:28:45
closely together with your team because
00:28:47
you're aiming for consensus and you're
00:28:48
aiming for robust discussions and so
00:28:51
yeah it's worked out really well
00:28:54
do you do you have like a hard and fast
00:28:56
rule about not talking about work at
00:28:58
home or do you find it's just sometimes
00:29:00
comes to your mind? No, no, James will
00:29:02
literally like roll over to me at 11:30
00:29:03
in bed and talk to me about the upcoming
00:29:05
meeting or whatever is top of mind for
00:29:07
him and like 6:00 a.m. you know, the
00:29:09
next morning it starts again. So, you
00:29:11
know, it would probably be healthy to
00:29:13
have some more barriers, but also in a
00:29:15
way I don't think it would be healthy
00:29:17
because if you start to kind of like,
00:29:18
you know, I guess compartmentamentalize
00:29:21
part of your life, then that becomes
00:29:24
really problematic. And so instead kind
00:29:26
of having these constant discussions
00:29:28
about you know what's top of mind for
00:29:30
you is important. Um but it is there's
00:29:33
no boundaries between work and life. It
00:29:35
is just life for us and and that's the
00:29:36
way that we manage it. Yeah. And some
00:29:39
people would see that as um potentially
00:29:41
problematic but that's up to them. Like
00:29:43
when I s Peter back on the podcast he
00:29:44
said um you for what he's trying to
00:29:46
achieve and if you're trying to achieve
00:29:47
a big thing you can't really do it on a
00:29:48
9 to5 schedule. Yeah. No it doesn't work
00:29:50
like that. Yeah. And each to your own
00:29:52
like um yeah who is anyone else to
00:29:54
judge. Yeah. I mean some days we wish we
00:29:55
had a 9 to5 schedule right and like that
00:29:57
you didn't have all the pressure or the
00:29:59
scrutiny or the you know the
00:30:01
responsibility on your shoulders but
00:30:03
also you know when we have those moments
00:30:05
I kind of look at him or he looks at me
00:30:07
and we go like and if it's not us and
00:30:09
who like how are we going to resolve
00:30:10
these systematic problems that we have
00:30:12
and so you feel kind of a a lot of
00:30:14
accountability and responsibility in
00:30:16
that space as well. So you and James um
00:30:19
are parents to three kids. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:21
What are their what are their ages?
00:30:22
There's there's a big gap between two
00:30:24
and three co baby. We had a co baby. We
00:30:27
were one of those people. Um so we have
00:30:29
an almost 13y old and then we have a
00:30:31
nineyear-old. Um and like we had you
00:30:33
know I look at it now and you know
00:30:35
knowing you know having had fertilities
00:30:37
journeys as well you know it was a
00:30:39
really challenging period for us and um
00:30:42
you know we had a stillborn baby then we
00:30:44
lost another baby at 17 weeks and so our
00:30:46
daughter came along quite later from
00:30:47
what we initially imagined. So our son
00:30:49
was almost four at that point and then
00:30:52
um we kind of got to some of the we
00:30:54
understood what was driving the issues
00:30:56
that we were having and when CO happened
00:30:59
you know um we decided well you know
00:31:01
we'll see if this can happen again
00:31:02
because we didn't feel like our family
00:31:04
was quite complete and you know Charlie
00:31:07
came along um which was quite a a
00:31:09
delightful surprise to both James and I
00:31:11
and so yeah really lucky but he is three
00:31:13
and you know the whole raising a toddler
00:31:15
at the same time as raising a teenager
00:31:17
it brings complexity. I did not think
00:31:19
that through, you know, I did not think
00:31:21
and I'm normally quite a structured
00:31:23
person who who gives a lot of thought
00:31:25
into how something will look into the
00:31:26
future, but I didn't think that I'd be
00:31:28
talking to my 13-year-old about, you
00:31:30
know, puberty and my three-year-old
00:31:32
about putting pulling his pants up,
00:31:34
right? You know, like it's it's a very
00:31:36
different different life stages.
00:31:37
Different life stages, you know, there's
00:31:39
something for everyone in there, you
00:31:40
know, and it's relentless, right? It's
00:31:42
relentless because, you know, our
00:31:44
13-year-old, like last night, he is
00:31:46
debating practice after school. He
00:31:47
doesn't get back home until 8:00. He has
00:31:49
soccer six night six nights a week. The
00:31:51
little ones still get up sick the other
00:31:53
night. So, you know, it's you are living
00:31:56
off fumes because you're constantly
00:31:58
someone needs you the whole time. And
00:31:59
you, you know, the needs, they don't
00:32:01
stop needing you because they get
00:32:02
bigger. They just need you in a
00:32:03
different way. They need you to show up
00:32:04
for them, to be there at soccer
00:32:06
practice, to be there for games, to be
00:32:07
there for debating, all of these things,
00:32:09
right? And so, it's a juggle. Um, but,
00:32:12
you know, God, are we, you know, we're
00:32:13
so lucky to have them. So, yeah. for for
00:32:15
the for the the older two. Did you have
00:32:17
any um sort of uh medical intervention
00:32:19
like IVF or um Well, we actually didn't.
00:32:21
So, with uh Tom, we had multiple
00:32:24
miscarriages before we had him and then
00:32:26
we were lucky. he ended up on clicksane
00:32:27
and and I was able to um carry him to
00:32:29
full term and then with Ila they did a
00:32:33
similar intervention for us to be able
00:32:34
to get pregnant and but then the problem
00:32:37
was that I couldn't stay pregnant and so
00:32:39
like that's quite traumatizing clearly
00:32:41
um you know when you have you know you
00:32:44
know we went for over 20 weeks with our
00:32:46
first uh baby that was still born and
00:32:47
that was really difficult right and so
00:32:52
um you know and then the I think the
00:32:55
problematic thing was after that that
00:32:57
the clinicians or the doctors at that
00:32:59
point kind of said oh well look
00:33:00
lightning doesn't strike twice you
00:33:02
should just go again there's nothing
00:33:03
wrong with you and then we had a similar
00:33:05
experience the next year losing another
00:33:06
baby at 17 weeks and I lost the the
00:33:09
girls within a day of each other so the
00:33:11
year prior on like June 24th I'd found
00:33:13
out that we lost the baby and on June
00:33:14
23rd the next year I lost the second
00:33:16
baby and that was um emotionally
00:33:18
physically you know for everyone it was
00:33:20
really hard right and you just don't
00:33:22
know what's wrong but you know for us
00:33:24
and for me like I kind of just ended up
00:33:26
on this, you know, problem-solving
00:33:28
mission to try to identify what was
00:33:30
going wrong and what was happening and
00:33:34
um you know didn't take the advice that
00:33:37
lightning doesn't happen three times and
00:33:39
actually went to get appropriate advice
00:33:40
from the right people who then we were
00:33:43
lucky enough to be able to have Ila and
00:33:44
carry her for through for to full term
00:33:45
which we were incredibly grateful for
00:33:47
and then go on to have Charie in a
00:33:48
similar way. So yeah, it was it's been
00:33:51
one heck of a journey and I often think
00:33:52
when people look at us now or they see
00:33:54
photos of Instagram like it is you know
00:33:57
it's not an overnight success story like
00:33:59
you know you don't just have it's not
00:34:00
easy and so really acknowledging that on
00:34:02
Mother's Day as well because I always
00:34:04
think about the fact that you know 11
00:34:06
years ago James gave me this gorgeous
00:34:07
little outfit for our baby girl that we
00:34:09
knew we were expecting and then you know
00:34:11
eight weeks later we lost her and so you
00:34:13
just don't know what people's journeys
00:34:15
look like right you just have no clue
00:34:16
and you can't assume just because they
00:34:18
kind of have everything that they've
00:34:19
wanted that they can't empathize with
00:34:20
you because in fact many people can.
00:34:22
Right. And so yeah, it's it's a hard
00:34:25
thing.
00:34:27
Yeah. I I don't have any kids of my own.
00:34:29
Um when JJ and I were together, we we
00:34:31
went through years and years of um
00:34:33
fertility treatment. Um the closest we
00:34:36
got was um during IVF where um there's
00:34:41
the embryo and it divides and it splits
00:34:43
and then it gets re-implanted. Um, so we
00:34:46
we were technically pregnant I think for
00:34:48
maybe a week or a couple of weeks before
00:34:50
she lost it. And that was um uh I mean
00:34:54
so much work went in to get to that
00:34:56
point. Um it was [ __ ] heartbreaking.
00:34:59
It was devastating. So I I cannot
00:35:01
imagine um just how devastating it is to
00:35:04
be like mid midway through your second
00:35:05
trimester pretty much and to lose a
00:35:07
child then. Yeah, it was really hard and
00:35:09
I think the circumstances made it even
00:35:11
more difficult because uh Tom was quite
00:35:14
little. He was only 18 months and um
00:35:16
we'd recently moved to Australia and so
00:35:19
uh we packed up kind of our family. I
00:35:21
didn't pack any clothes that weren't
00:35:23
maternity wear and so it wasn't like I
00:35:25
was in Oakuckland and you know I arrived
00:35:27
into Australia. We were launching my
00:35:29
food bag into Australia. We were still
00:35:31
running my food bag in New Zealand. We
00:35:32
were still running OP link in re in New
00:35:34
Zealand. We were selling Opal Link in
00:35:36
New Zealand. And so we had a lot of
00:35:38
pressure and I think um you know when we
00:35:40
lost that first baby I really felt like
00:35:42
it was my fault like the amount of
00:35:43
pressure I'd put myself under and my
00:35:45
body in particular you know um dealing
00:35:48
with that level of um ongoing kind of
00:35:50
stress and also when you know the doctor
00:35:53
said well there's kind of nothing wrong
00:35:54
with you there's nothing wrong with your
00:35:55
husband you know the baby was fully
00:35:57
healthy so this is like her heart's just
00:35:59
stopped beating and and two things that
00:36:01
they said one is that you're probably
00:36:02
lucky cuz there might have been
00:36:03
something seriously wrong and you know
00:36:05
two lightning doesn't happen twice so
00:36:06
you should just go again. Um, but I
00:36:08
remember vividly, you know, um, you
00:36:11
know, James having to drag me out to to
00:36:13
buy clothes because like, you know, I'd
00:36:15
only packed maternity wear with me and
00:36:16
it was the most, you know, um, kind of
00:36:19
awful thing to have to go through and
00:36:21
and just think about like, oh, well, I'm
00:36:23
no longer pregnant. You know, I have to
00:36:25
buy things to wear cuz I have to rock up
00:36:26
to, you know, work. And so, um, it was
00:36:30
very tangible the loss. And you know,
00:36:32
you go from having a baby that is, you
00:36:35
know, kicking and, you know, arms
00:36:37
flanging and, you know, you know, you're
00:36:38
having a girl and you're quite excited
00:36:40
to then being blindsided cuz, you know,
00:36:42
I didn't bleed or anything. We literally
00:36:44
just walked into a scan and her heart
00:36:46
was no longer beating and there's just
00:36:48
no explanation. And so that that was
00:36:50
really difficult and it was something
00:36:52
that I was never prepared to go through.
00:36:54
So, you know, they put the probe on on
00:36:55
your tummy and you're expecting to see
00:36:56
your baby and you know, instead they go,
00:36:59
"Oh, you know, look, we need to go and
00:37:01
get a doctor and someone else needs to
00:37:02
assess this and then you just don't
00:37:03
know." So, that was incredibly hard
00:37:06
going through the health system and you
00:37:09
know, um we had quite a big um
00:37:11
discussion with the clinician
00:37:14
because I'd had a really difficult birth
00:37:16
with Thomas. um they had said to me to
00:37:17
never attempt birth again and they
00:37:20
wanted me to birth the baby because of
00:37:22
how late in pregnancy I was and um
00:37:27
and I just refused because I didn't want
00:37:29
to go through that and I didn't think it
00:37:31
was healthy for me and I didn't think
00:37:32
that it would help my healing to hold
00:37:35
the baby and um we ended up in a really
00:37:38
kind of like a standoff for probably
00:37:39
about an hour and James just stepped in
00:37:42
at the end and asked obstitrician you
00:37:43
know like if this was your wife what
00:37:45
would you be recommending Yeah, cuz of
00:37:46
course, you know, like it's I guess it
00:37:49
was it was funny cuz we actually had
00:37:50
health insurance in Australia and we
00:37:51
ended up having to, you know, had a
00:37:53
procedure to have the baby and um it's
00:37:56
probably cheaper for the system and this
00:37:57
is me talking like a health system
00:37:58
person now to give someone medication
00:38:00
and make them have the baby and there's
00:38:01
obviously a lot of mental health
00:38:03
benefits for a lot of people, but I
00:38:04
didn't feel like that was my rights
00:38:05
choice and I feel like women should have
00:38:07
the right to choose when they're in a in
00:38:09
in a circumstance like that and so um
00:38:13
you know it was it was hard and you know
00:38:15
That day that we
00:38:18
um ended up in hospital having the baby
00:38:20
um
00:38:22
was the day that we were expecting to
00:38:24
have bids um to sell Opelink in New
00:38:26
Zealand. So that was a day we were
00:38:28
expecting people to tell us whether or
00:38:30
not um you know we could let go of one
00:38:31
of his distresses in our life and
00:38:33
whether Opelink would sell. And that
00:38:35
Sunday we were launching my food bag
00:38:36
into Australia. And so, you know, we had
00:38:38
this runway of stuff that had to be done
00:38:40
and and I had to be in hospital and it
00:38:42
was, you know, I woke up and, you know,
00:38:44
one of the first questions I asked my
00:38:45
husband, which, you know, was like, did
00:38:47
we sell OPINK? Because I just and he was
00:38:50
like, why are you asking me that? Like,
00:38:52
that is the least important thing. And I
00:38:53
was like, well, we have to take away one
00:38:54
of the pressures. Of course, we hadn't
00:38:56
had any bids for OP. So, it made that
00:38:57
weekend even worse in that instance. So,
00:39:00
look, it was really, really hard. And
00:39:02
you know um it builds your resilience
00:39:05
and like I look at my daughter today and
00:39:07
I wouldn't have it any other way. And I
00:39:09
also acknowledge that there are so many
00:39:10
people that don't have my ending. And so
00:39:12
I am grateful, you know, um but I'm also
00:39:15
prepared to be a fierce advocate for
00:39:16
those um that have gone through this and
00:39:19
are going through this because the
00:39:21
system needs to be able to meet the
00:39:22
needs of our patients, right? And so
00:39:24
yeah. Yeah. I think trauma is shapes you
00:39:27
there, right?
00:39:30
How how big's the fetus at that point?
00:39:33
Um is it like a a fist? It's a proper
00:39:35
baby. Like it's a proper baby. And I
00:39:37
remember them saying in Australia
00:39:38
because like they talk about you know
00:39:40
how early and you know how you can go to
00:39:42
you know 23 weeks and and you know you
00:39:44
can deliver and even if you know the
00:39:45
baby will often have a lot of
00:39:46
complications they can still go on to
00:39:48
live. So I was like oh my god I'm just a
00:39:49
few weeks off this kind of like
00:39:51
milestone and how did we end up in this
00:39:54
position because you are fully pregnant.
00:39:55
you've got a belly, you know, your
00:39:56
breasts have expanded significantly, you
00:39:58
know, you're feeling all the emotions,
00:40:00
you know, and so it felt um you know, it
00:40:05
was it was really hard and it's a lot of
00:40:07
that process going through the health
00:40:09
system that shaped our thinking around
00:40:10
it. you know I remember you know kind of
00:40:12
being and this is probably quite this is
00:40:14
quite you know a lot for people to
00:40:15
manage but um or to you know hear was
00:40:17
that when we went for the Australian
00:40:19
process they kind of said well look you
00:40:20
kind of have two choices you know we
00:40:22
either do like a proper autopsy to
00:40:24
understand what's happened or you know
00:40:25
you kind of get to take her home and I
00:40:27
was like I I want to understand what's
00:40:28
happened because you know this is not
00:40:31
normal and you know and they completed
00:40:33
that process and told us that you know
00:40:35
there was nothing wrong with our baby
00:40:36
and so I was like well why are we in
00:40:37
this position then you know I want to
00:40:39
understand why um but Then also you
00:40:41
don't have the same closure and so yeah
00:40:44
um really difficult really difficult.
00:40:47
Yeah.
00:40:49
And do you allow yourself to grieve or
00:40:51
or are you so busy at the time you pack
00:40:53
the grief and deal with it a later time
00:40:55
or um yeah I mean we definitely grieved
00:40:57
that weekend and we definitely grieved
00:41:00
for a long period afterwards. It's
00:41:01
heartbreaking. you know, it was really
00:41:03
heartbreaking and you know, I think what
00:41:04
was hard about Australia was that we
00:41:06
were only about, you know, 6 weeks into
00:41:08
our time there and um you know, we
00:41:13
didn't have a support network in place
00:41:14
in Australia. You know, we were lucky.
00:41:16
We we brought our OP with us from New
00:41:18
Zealand who's Swedish, funny, who I
00:41:19
adore. she's actually just had a second
00:41:21
baby and um and she was there and she
00:41:24
canceled all of her you know trips that
00:41:25
she had planned and and she was amazing
00:41:28
and really kind of stepped up and um you
00:41:31
know James and I lean into each other
00:41:33
like you know we're each other's biggest
00:41:34
support network um but I do remember
00:41:37
that you know in that phase you know
00:41:39
Nadia Lim's husband Carlos who's one of
00:41:41
the most epic human beings in the world
00:41:43
who I adore you know um promptly kind of
00:41:46
dropped everything and just um came over
00:41:48
to Australia to help us and this was in
00:41:49
the same phase that Nadia's dad was
00:41:51
quite sick and later passed away and he
00:41:54
um he literally changed like his travel
00:41:56
plans and he just he was there you know
00:41:58
and it was a big deal you know to just
00:42:00
do that and to take the pressure off us
00:42:01
in Australia so yeah it's so humbling
00:42:04
it's so beautiful isn't it you really
00:42:07
find out um who your support network is
00:42:09
yeah and like he just I mean it was just
00:42:11
um yeah love them you know and so so
00:42:14
yeah
00:42:16
and like do you do you think about those
00:42:18
kids Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of having
00:42:21
this conversation and I think about a
00:42:22
lot of of Mother's Day. You know, I I
00:42:25
think, you know, look, it's funny
00:42:27
because I'm not a hugely philosophical
00:42:28
person, but I do look at my daughter
00:42:30
who's a very stubborn thing, right? Like
00:42:32
she's a pretty much a mirror image of of
00:42:34
her mother. And I often say to my
00:42:37
husband that like Ila just kept coming
00:42:38
back to us. And so like I I I think
00:42:42
about it in a way that, you know, it was
00:42:43
kind of a really long journey to have
00:42:45
her. So, you know, intellectually I
00:42:47
understand that these are different, you
00:42:49
know, fetuses and like you've had
00:42:51
different babies and, you know, and
00:42:52
we've gone through this loss twice
00:42:54
before we had her, but um when I think
00:42:56
about it, I think about all of this love
00:42:58
and energy and channeling into Ila and
00:43:01
so
00:43:03
that's how I think about it and that's
00:43:04
how I choose to think about it. And you
00:43:06
know, like I'm sure people think about
00:43:07
these things different ways, right? But
00:43:10
and everyone deals with it differently,
00:43:12
but you know, we have open conversations
00:43:13
with the kids about it. I understand Ila
00:43:15
will often crack open like when she
00:43:16
meets new people there should have been
00:43:17
five of us and I'm like oh gosh I would
00:43:19
have never been a mother of five so you
00:43:21
know um but yeah like I I I like to
00:43:24
think that you know we have and actually
00:43:26
my um when I lived in in as America um
00:43:32
I my host mother over there um she said
00:43:35
to me you have the children that you're
00:43:36
meant to have and so you know um and and
00:43:39
that was really amazing because it kind
00:43:40
of gave me context right and so so yeah
00:43:43
that's how I tried to think about it.
00:43:46
Did do you have any therapy or anything
00:43:48
to Yeah. And look, this is again where I
00:43:50
felt really let down by that and this is
00:43:51
how we ended up doing what we're doing
00:43:52
today with tend and so um there is such
00:43:56
a big uh lack of kind of support in this
00:43:59
area and how people reach into the
00:44:01
system and the things that are made
00:44:02
available to you. So the short answer is
00:44:04
like maybe a session but not a lot. And
00:44:07
so like and and it was very much just
00:44:09
grief counseling in relation to what
00:44:10
we'd gone through rather than kind of
00:44:12
preparing you for the phase that happens
00:44:13
after that. And so um no and I think
00:44:17
that that is a really important part of
00:44:19
the puzzle right but actually for me I'm
00:44:21
quite an actionorientated highly
00:44:23
resilient human being and so I often
00:44:25
just needs to kind of like okay this is
00:44:27
a problem now how do I work on the
00:44:28
solution? How do I fix this? Like what's
00:44:31
wrong? Well, therapy is not not for
00:44:32
everyone, but um yeah, I just have an
00:44:35
issue with people that um knock it
00:44:37
before trying it. Try it and it may not
00:44:38
be for you. Maybe I don't like who
00:44:40
knocks it though nowadays. I mean, it's
00:44:41
such an important way to have a
00:44:42
conversation about it like and you know,
00:44:45
I think um often, you know, you're a lot
00:44:48
of people around you, you know, I think
00:44:50
that there's a place for all different
00:44:51
types of therapy as well, but also
00:44:52
leaning into your community and talking
00:44:54
to people who have had similar
00:44:55
experiences. And that's where I found a
00:44:56
lot of peace and a lot of comfort was
00:44:59
talking to people who had had similar
00:45:00
experiences and working through that.
00:45:02
And then also when I saw other women and
00:45:04
this happened to other women after me
00:45:06
being the person that reaches out and
00:45:07
saying, "Hey, look, how can I help? This
00:45:09
is my experience. This is the things
00:45:10
that you need to be thinking about. Here
00:45:12
are some of my connections like you know
00:45:14
that that was really valuable to me and
00:45:16
I'm hoping it's valuable to other people
00:45:17
as well."
00:45:19
Was it Thanks for being so open about
00:45:21
this. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, I'm sure
00:45:22
it's not easy to talk about. had another
00:45:24
guest on the podcast who's um who lost
00:45:26
his son to suicide and I asked him if he
00:45:28
wants to talk about it and he said not
00:45:29
he said not really and he said the
00:45:31
reason being it's when he talks about it
00:45:33
hurts so he just doesn't doesn't like to
00:45:35
talk about it which makes perfect sense
00:45:37
but oh look I just I mean and I think
00:45:39
this is where cuz I had these
00:45:40
conversations with people I don't think
00:45:42
that you can I don't think that it's
00:45:43
healthy to um kind of um measure
00:45:47
different griefs but as a mother of
00:45:49
three children at the ages that I have
00:45:51
now it is unimaginable for someone to
00:45:52
lose a child. It is a different thing to
00:45:54
lose a baby and you know pregnancy uh
00:45:58
versus you know losing a baby you know
00:46:00
within like it is a very it's a very
00:46:03
different it's a very different I can
00:46:05
only and I hope I never you know like
00:46:07
this is you don't want to compare grief
00:46:10
but I do think that like that is
00:46:12
unimaginable and I can totally
00:46:13
understand the position of not wanting
00:46:15
to talk about it and look it was a long
00:46:16
period for me where I didn't talk about
00:46:18
it where I found it you know I remember
00:46:20
when we lost our second baby um the year
00:46:22
after we'd lost our first one. um
00:46:25
working at my food bag and you know it's
00:46:27
not an easy environment to be pregnant
00:46:29
in because you're constantly bloody
00:46:30
cooking which is amazing but painful if
00:46:32
you're pregnant because you know it's
00:46:33
stinky and you're just vomiting the
00:46:34
whole time and so it was really visible
00:46:36
to our team that I was pregnant and so I
00:46:39
had to kind of early announce you know
00:46:40
at about 12 weeks that I was pregnant
00:46:42
again and that we were doing everything
00:46:44
that we could for me to you know be be
00:46:46
healthy but then rocking up to our team
00:46:48
and saying hey look guys this has
00:46:49
happened again you know taking Tom in to
00:46:51
work with us and saying hey look we're
00:46:52
really blessed we have Tom we're okay
00:46:54
I'm okay. I'm still your leader. Like, I
00:46:56
can still be here and we're going
00:46:57
through this and it's really it's hard.
00:47:00
Uh but I still need to show up for my
00:47:01
team. And so, there is a balance there
00:47:03
of me needing to be a leader uh for the
00:47:06
people who look to me on a day-to-day
00:47:08
basis and to show that level of um you
00:47:11
know, vulnerability, but also at the
00:47:13
same time being able to say to my team,
00:47:15
I'm still here and I know that you need
00:47:17
me and so I can just, you know, and so
00:47:20
there's there's a fine balance there.
00:47:21
And I've always given that a lot of
00:47:23
thought, right? And so, yeah. Were you
00:47:26
were you [ __ ] scared um after losing
00:47:28
those two, getting pregnant again? Oh,
00:47:30
it was awful. Like I haven't enjoyed a
00:47:32
pregnancy since, you know, and you know
00:47:34
what I found really traumatizing was um
00:47:36
and this only was by the time we were
00:47:38
pregnant with Ila. So during my second
00:47:40
pregnancy, you know, they still kept
00:47:42
putting the probe on my tummy. And I
00:47:43
remember I had an obstatrician in
00:47:44
Oakland and it was difficult because
00:47:47
they didn't understand my fear or
00:47:49
concern coming back into New Zealand
00:47:50
after what had happened in Australia.
00:47:51
They had very little information. We'd
00:47:52
sent over all our medical notes and the
00:47:54
obstatrician just kept saying, "You're
00:47:56
fine. This is fine. This is easy. Great
00:47:57
pregnancy. Everything's tracking. We do
00:47:59
scans." And then kind of going in at 14
00:48:01
weeks and me saying, "Oh, like I don't
00:48:03
feel comfortable. I need another scan."
00:48:04
And so they did one and they labeled it
00:48:06
a reassurance scan and the baby was
00:48:08
fine. And then again I was like, "I
00:48:10
don't feel comfortable. or there's
00:48:11
something that's not right at 17 weeks
00:48:12
this time and they you know sent me for
00:48:14
another reassurance scan and that time
00:48:16
putting the probe on my tummy again. Um
00:48:18
you know with a big kind of video image
00:48:21
for those of you who haven't been
00:48:22
pregnant there's a big TV and you can
00:48:24
literally see that the baby isn't moving
00:48:25
and something is wrong and that's really
00:48:26
traumatizing. I remember the first time
00:48:28
I saw it I was like ah cool like she's
00:48:30
sleeping or like what is she doing and
00:48:32
then going like this is not normal. But
00:48:34
the second time just going oh my god
00:48:36
like that is that is just horrific. This
00:48:38
has just happened again. And that was
00:48:40
the thing that Keithing and I remember
00:48:41
we had I think we had a Welsh or a
00:48:43
Scottish um radio radiographer that did
00:48:45
the scan and he obviously knew that we'd
00:48:47
had repeat miscarriages because it was
00:48:48
written on my form and he known that
00:48:50
we'd had a stillborn baby and I remember
00:48:52
him you know expressively uh using
00:48:55
language going you know [ __ ] you know
00:48:57
because he himself was so shocked at
00:48:59
what he was seeing it wasn't what he was
00:49:00
expecting and so after that we actually
00:49:04
ended up in the public healthare system
00:49:05
and I just insisted that they don't turn
00:49:07
any of the screens on until they had a
00:49:09
heartbeat. And so that was a rule with
00:49:11
Ila and Maturally. They never turned the
00:49:12
screens on until they were comfortable
00:49:14
that everything was fine and then we
00:49:15
could turn it on and look at it because
00:49:16
I just didn't once you've seen that, you
00:49:18
don't want to ever see it again, right?
00:49:20
And so yeah, there's a lot of triggers
00:49:22
and and you know, I think it helps to
00:49:24
talk about it openly and how you can
00:49:26
help kind of mitigate that stress and
00:49:28
discomfort for other people is really
00:49:29
important to me.
00:49:31
Your marriage seems seems rock solid. It
00:49:34
must have been tough on it at the time
00:49:36
though. Yeah, I think James and I when
00:49:38
we go through hard times brings us
00:49:39
closer together rather than a apart. And
00:49:42
so, you know, he's my biggest rock, my
00:49:45
biggest important, you know, he's like,
00:49:46
you know, look, we don't need to go for
00:49:48
more kids. If this is too hard for you,
00:49:49
then, you know, but also equally um
00:49:52
prepared to rock up by my side and be
00:49:54
like, no, actually, my wife wants this
00:49:55
and like you need to hear her. Um
00:49:58
because these are the things that, you
00:49:59
know, are important to her. And so,
00:50:01
yeah, James has always been in my
00:50:03
corner, right beside me. He's never
00:50:05
missed an appointment. like he's there
00:50:06
for everything and that was actually
00:50:07
quite hard during co because he was kind
00:50:09
of forced to miss appointments like
00:50:10
appointments that he could go to right
00:50:11
but when we co happened with Charlie I'd
00:50:13
literally have to go into scans by
00:50:15
myself
00:50:16
um and you know I gave birth to Charlie
00:50:18
in level three and he wasn't allowed to
00:50:19
be there in recovery with me and some of
00:50:21
that stuff you know um it's hard but um
00:50:23
but yeah I'm really lucky um to have
00:50:26
found someone who I've been able to you
00:50:28
know from an early age but for him and
00:50:30
me like we're helping to shape each
00:50:31
other into better people and you know
00:50:33
that is you know very, you know, such a
00:50:36
privilege, you know. Yeah. Cuz I suppose
00:50:38
in adversity like that, it can either
00:50:40
bring you closer together or, you know,
00:50:41
te couples apart, I think with with um
00:50:44
JJ and I without fertility stuff, like
00:50:46
it was um so I had I had a procedure
00:50:49
that left me um with the fertility
00:50:50
problems and then um the man's
00:50:53
involvement in the fertility treatment
00:50:54
is very very minimal like J in a cup and
00:50:57
that's basically it. And she had to
00:50:59
inject herself for nights and nights on
00:51:01
end and then he would do all the hard
00:51:03
work. You know, I think for me it
00:51:04
brought a lot of sort of guilt and
00:51:06
shame. Yeah, it's a really hard thing. I
00:51:08
mean, I totally understand. And I think
00:51:09
what James really struggled with was
00:51:11
when I was pregnant with Ila. Um
00:51:15
I ended up on uh blood thinners and I
00:51:17
had to inject myself every day with
00:51:19
blood thinners and so my belly literally
00:51:21
went blue over a period of time and
00:51:22
James would you know I think he would
00:51:25
feel extremely uncomfortable and you
00:51:27
know just really aware of my well-being
00:51:29
and you know just on edge because you
00:51:30
know something can happen at any any
00:51:32
point and so you know you're just going
00:51:34
through it and you just there's not much
00:51:35
you can do you know you just you have to
00:51:37
just show up and like that's the most
00:51:39
important thing is just showing up being
00:51:41
beside someone and and empathizing with,
00:51:43
you know, the situation that you're in,
00:51:45
but you can't take that pain away, you
00:51:47
know, you can't take the physical
00:51:48
discomfort away. You just got to be
00:51:49
there and just be prepared to, you know,
00:51:51
be the support person. So, yeah, it's
00:51:53
hard. I can see how it can break people.
00:51:55
I totally understand that. I can see how
00:51:57
it can break relationships and I think
00:51:59
that, you know, it is, you know, a
00:52:02
really challenging thing to have to go
00:52:04
through and it's not something that you
00:52:05
wish on anyone, right? So, yeah. Well, I
00:52:07
appreciate you sharing all that,
00:52:08
Cecilia. I know the these are tough
00:52:10
conversations to have, but I think
00:52:11
they're they're important to have as
00:52:12
well. Yeah. So, someone might be
00:52:14
listening to this and realize that and
00:52:15
and not feel so alone, which is cool.
00:52:17
Oh, totally. And like that's where, you
00:52:18
know, for me, I was like, I'd never
00:52:20
heard of someone my age because I was
00:52:21
very young when all of this happened.
00:52:23
You know, I was 30 um 29 actually when
00:52:26
we lost um our first when we had our
00:52:28
first stillborn baby. And you know, I
00:52:30
just didn't think it happened to women
00:52:31
my age. Like what was wrong with me?
00:52:33
like why was I unable to do was it
00:52:35
because of and I think you internalize
00:52:37
the fact that it's your fault and
00:52:39
particular particular when you're in a
00:52:41
in a high stress role and you're
00:52:43
managing a lot of things you as a woman
00:52:45
you look at yourself and go it's my
00:52:46
fault right and it's taken me a long
00:52:48
time to understand that like that did
00:52:49
not contribute to the reasons that I had
00:52:51
and when once you know you know a
00:52:54
problem was identified and there were
00:52:55
ways to resolve that um you know I felt
00:52:59
better because it just wasn't all on me
00:53:01
you know is this the the I guess
00:53:03
personal adversity you've gone through.
00:53:04
Yeah, definitely. I'd say this is the
00:53:06
hardest thing we've ever had to go
00:53:07
through. Yeah. Yeah. The life of a
00:53:10
serial entrepreneur, you go through a
00:53:11
lot of adversity. Oh, you honestly do.
00:53:13
And you know, we when Charlie was born,
00:53:15
they suspected that he had quite a a
00:53:17
severe um a disability. And we went for
00:53:20
about 5 days between them kind of
00:53:22
telling us that they had a suspicion to
00:53:24
um kind of going through um testing. And
00:53:26
it wasn't until he was much um older
00:53:28
that they actually confirmed that what
00:53:29
they suspected he had, he didn't
00:53:30
actually have. And um and that was
00:53:33
really hard as well, but it was a
00:53:34
different type of hard because this was
00:53:35
a human and we loved him and he was here
00:53:37
and it was still so rewarding to just
00:53:39
have him. Um but when we went through
00:53:42
the pregnancy losses, all we had were
00:53:44
loss. Like that was all we had. We just
00:53:45
had loss and that was really hard.
00:53:49
Thanks so much for that. Yeah. You want
00:53:51
a sip? Yeah, probably need a sip. Yeah.
00:53:53
What do you have in here as a question?
00:53:56
We need some vodka or gin if you want.
00:53:58
Yeah. All right. Should we move on to
00:53:59
some um there's some fun stuff?
00:54:01
business. I feel like you you much more
00:54:03
comfortable talking about the business
00:54:04
stuff than Yeah. I appreciate you being
00:54:07
so open today. Yeah. No, absolutely. And
00:54:09
look, it's important for other people to
00:54:10
hear your journey because otherwise they
00:54:11
just see a slice of where you are. Yeah.
00:54:13
Um Yeah. But I know it's sort of, you
00:54:16
know, opening old wounds, I guess, in a
00:54:17
way. So, so you move to New Zealand, you
00:54:20
meet James, then you're studying um at
00:54:23
university, you work at this recruitment
00:54:24
place, and you start this company called
00:54:26
Opink. Yes. Um
00:54:29
Yeah. What sort of money do you have to
00:54:30
start? like how do you how do you start
00:54:32
a business at 20 with a student loan
00:54:33
that was not meant to be used to start a
00:54:35
business as a student loan out of Sweden
00:54:37
actually I did pay it back quite
00:54:38
promptly when I could later and so yeah
00:54:41
I mean yeah we I started literally with
00:54:43
a student loan um because in Sweden what
00:54:46
actually happened was that if you study
00:54:47
overseas this is a really bad story by
00:54:49
the way makes me sound like a bad person
00:54:50
but um they give you an allowance to
00:54:52
study overseas in international areas
00:54:53
and when you're not normally if you're a
00:54:55
start student in Sweden it's like a
00:54:56
monthly allowance but in Sweden they
00:54:58
give you a bulk payment if you're
00:54:59
studying overseas cuz I'm assuming I
00:55:00
mean this is at least this is what it
00:55:02
was like 20 years ago. Who knows what
00:55:03
they do now. So I used my bulk payment
00:55:05
to start opaling. I had like 500 bucks
00:55:07
and I started the website and then um I
00:55:10
bought a car so I could drive to
00:55:11
people's houses and interview them to
00:55:12
get an oper and that's how it started.
00:55:15
And was it successful straight away?
00:55:17
Like did did you just have some good
00:55:19
luck or did you It took quite a while
00:55:20
for it to be I mean I think what
00:55:22
happened with Opeling is that we started
00:55:24
getting like phone calls at like 7:00
00:55:25
a.m. in the morning and 9:00 p.m. at
00:55:26
night from people that wanted an Opia.
00:55:28
And so James is like, "That's kind of
00:55:29
weird. Clearly there's like a market
00:55:31
there." And so, but like it depends on
00:55:33
how you define success, right? Because
00:55:35
it was really hard. And even when we
00:55:36
sold Opal Inc. Like it wasn't a massive
00:55:38
company. I think we're turning over
00:55:39
about $7 million, which sounds like a
00:55:41
lot of money, but like if a lot of that
00:55:42
is cost, then, you know, you're not
00:55:45
making much and you're paying yourself a
00:55:46
minimal amount and that's really hard.
00:55:48
And so, you know, that was a really
00:55:51
formative journey for us to be able to
00:55:52
find refine our business skills and to
00:55:54
be able to understand, you know, become
00:55:56
really focused on our customers and our
00:55:57
journeys. And that was that was really
00:55:59
helpful for us. Yeah. Yeah. That that
00:56:01
must be the strange time because you're
00:56:03
building this company and clearly it's
00:56:05
um successful, but um you still feel
00:56:07
like a broke ass. Yeah. Yes. Like
00:56:09
everything you've got, I suppose, is
00:56:11
paying expenses or going back into the
00:56:12
business. I mean, you're literally I
00:56:14
mean, I remember when we made the
00:56:15
decision for me to work full-time on
00:56:17
Opal Inc. Um, you know, and it was it
00:56:22
was really hard because it wasn't
00:56:23
earning much money. Couldn't really
00:56:25
justify it. And so, what would happen is
00:56:26
that James was working full-time in a
00:56:28
corporate job and then his salary would
00:56:29
come in to pay the salary of our team
00:56:30
inside, right? And so, we literally
00:56:33
lived off very little. Right. It was it
00:56:35
was really hard.
00:56:38
Did you have any mentors or like who did
00:56:40
you go to for advice? Um so I mean we
00:56:42
tried a lot of kind of different mentors
00:56:43
over time. One of the early people that
00:56:45
I met was someone called Dr. Lima Feice
00:56:47
who joined our advisory board in Sardo
00:56:49
Pelank. And then I met Theresa Gatting
00:56:53
through um Dame Theresa Gatting. Gosh,
00:56:55
you beat me with a stick. These people
00:56:58
earn these titles. Dame Theresa Gatting
00:57:00
or I call her T. So um we met T through
00:57:03
um she was doing a road show for her
00:57:05
book that she'd recently published and I
00:57:06
asked her to join our advisory board. So
00:57:09
um um Dame Theresa and Dr. Lee, you
00:57:12
know, initially in that capacity
00:57:13
supporting us inside Opelink was really
00:57:15
helpful. What's um what's Dame T like?
00:57:18
I'd love to have her on the podcast.
00:57:20
Honestly, she is um a really funny she's
00:57:24
not a corporate like you'd you'd assume
00:57:26
as you know being the first CEO of a
00:57:28
public listed company in New Zealand
00:57:30
that she'd be like this kind of cookie
00:57:33
cut corporate lady and she's like the
00:57:34
opposite. like she's an exotic I used to
00:57:36
call her an exotic like cat lady but now
00:57:38
she has a dog called Olly who's named
00:57:39
after her cat that she used to have and
00:57:42
so she is yeah she's a she's a force to
00:57:44
be reckoned with that's for sure I can't
00:57:46
imagine the stories she have like but
00:57:48
like she was CEO of telecom at a time
00:57:50
where there were no very few women in
00:57:52
positions like the [ __ ] she must
00:57:55
have had to cut through for sure like
00:57:57
and she's seen everything right so it's
00:57:58
quite helpful and you know like um yeah
00:58:01
she's she's a phenomenal lady and
00:58:03
someone who you know obviously is one of
00:58:05
my best friends and someone who I'm
00:58:06
incredibly close to and who, you know, I
00:58:08
talk to all the time. Right. So, yeah.
00:58:11
So, um you you you managed to sell Opel
00:58:14
link. Do you do it right out of that? Do
00:58:15
you talk about figures and things or I
00:58:16
don't talk about figures, but no, we um
00:58:18
so we sold Opink. Um that was really,
00:58:21
you know, we were able to buy our first
00:58:22
home with the proceeds from that. So,
00:58:24
you know, that was really fantastic.
00:58:26
And, you know, still with a mortgage
00:58:28
though, obviously, um at the time, but
00:58:30
yeah, we were able to buy our first
00:58:31
home. And I think often I look back and
00:58:33
I kind of go if we would have been in
00:58:34
good corporate careers, we probably
00:58:35
would have earned a similar amount to
00:58:37
get us to that point, but the lessons
00:58:38
that we learned were priceless, right?
00:58:39
So that's really what we took away out
00:58:41
of it. Yeah. So the the so the business
00:58:43
So from there you went into my food bag.
00:58:45
Um so very very different business going
00:58:46
from like nanny and kids to food. Um,
00:58:49
but I suppose there's a lot of
00:58:50
principles in business and
00:58:51
entrepreneurship. Yeah, totally. And
00:58:52
it's like that relentless focus on the
00:58:53
customer, right? And it doesn't matter
00:58:54
what you're doing that actually being
00:58:56
really focused on the customer is
00:58:57
probably the most important thing and
00:58:58
being successful in business. And so we
00:59:01
really um honed that skill set and made
00:59:03
sure that we were relentlessly customer
00:59:06
focused. And we'd actually started, you
00:59:08
know, my food bag at the same time as we
00:59:10
had Opal Inc. And that was obviously
00:59:11
what was driving some of the stress for
00:59:13
me as well. And you know my food bag
00:59:15
kind of did become an overnight success
00:59:16
in a way like we went from you know zero
00:59:18
revenue to turning over 100 million
00:59:20
within the space of less than a year two
00:59:22
years and that was you know exponential
00:59:24
growth at that I mean I remember Sam
00:59:25
Morgan saying to me like trade me didn't
00:59:26
even do that Cecilia like give yourself
00:59:28
cut yourself some slack you know like um
00:59:30
don't be so hard on yourself and so but
00:59:32
do you know Sam? Yeah I like we've got a
00:59:35
you know we chat occasionally and so
00:59:37
what's he doing now? That's a name I
00:59:38
haven't heard in maybe a decade. Yeah.
00:59:40
Yeah. No, he's a quality person. He does
00:59:42
a lot of charitable stuff and does it
00:59:43
incredibly quietly and you know he is a
00:59:46
person that is incredibly philanthropic.
00:59:50
Um and you know someone who I've got a
00:59:52
huge amount of respect and admiration
00:59:54
for. Yeah. For anyone that doesn't know
00:59:56
Sam Morgan um started trade me in New
00:59:57
Zealand and sold it to Fairfax for
00:59:59
something like $700 million. His dad's
01:00:01
um his dad's the crazy cat man. Yes.
01:00:03
Yeah. We should get Gareth Morgan and
01:00:05
Dame Theres in a room together. That
01:00:06
would actually be really funny. It would
01:00:08
actually that would be quality. That
01:00:10
would be good TV. Yeah. Um, I've got the
01:00:12
timeline here for my food bag and it's
01:00:14
seems all all very neat. So, how are you
01:00:16
doing for time? I see. I probably have
01:00:17
10 more minutes. Yeah. Is that okay?
01:00:19
Sorry. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so 2010 you
01:00:22
had the idea for my food bag while
01:00:23
you're in Sweden. 2012 it's launched.
01:00:26
2014 it's up to 65 million turnover.
01:00:29
Yeah. And then 2016 sold. Yeah. Wow.
01:00:32
Yeah. Crazy. How how do you start with
01:00:35
an idea as daunting as my food bag? Like
01:00:37
where do you begin? Um, I think again
01:00:39
naivity and curiosity. So, we'd seen
01:00:41
this kind of concept over in, you know,
01:00:43
Europe. Um, and, um, you know, I have
01:00:46
got one of those husbands who kind of
01:00:48
like loves to eat, hates to cook, and
01:00:49
would constantly in a standoff about,
01:00:51
you know, what are we having for dinner
01:00:52
tonight? And he'd be like, whatever is
01:00:53
easy. And I'm like, it's not easy to
01:00:54
come up with it. So, um, so saw the
01:00:57
concept for my food bag. I was pregnant
01:00:58
with Tom at that point and went on
01:01:00
maternity leave and I kind of done
01:01:01
everything that you're meant to do,
01:01:02
which is, you know, like fill the
01:01:04
freezer and cook and clean and set up
01:01:06
the nursery. and then in between him
01:01:09
being late, I was convinced he was going
01:01:10
to be Swedish and turned out being on
01:01:12
time, but he wasn't. And so, um, wrote
01:01:15
the business plan and kind of pressed,
01:01:17
you know, save and then went into labor
01:01:19
and then 6 weeks later we're presenting
01:01:21
it, I actually think it was 3 weeks
01:01:22
later to Op's board. So, it went really
01:01:25
quickly and I think, you know, I look
01:01:26
back at that journey and I go, probably
01:01:27
some of the decisions that we made
01:01:29
coming out of it wouldn't have been the
01:01:30
same if we hadn't gone through the
01:01:31
personal trauma that we did. You know, I
01:01:33
think, you know, we lost the baby in
01:01:34
2014, we lost the baby in 2015 and then,
01:01:37
you know, we had Leila in 2016 and very
01:01:39
close to her being born, you know, we
01:01:41
sold the business broadly or largely,
01:01:43
you know, 70% of it. And so, you know, I
01:01:46
think all of those kind of decisions
01:01:47
that you have in your personal life kind
01:01:48
of shapes your business decision and we
01:01:49
were just exhausted at that point. What
01:01:52
was what was the biggest obstacle to
01:01:53
getting my food bag off the ground? Um,
01:01:55
I think that, you know, I remember
01:01:56
someone saying to me like, "This is kind
01:01:58
of like doing a photo shoot with like
01:02:00
kittens and babies. Like, you don't want
01:02:01
to do that. like what are you doing? And
01:02:02
it's a logistical challenge of it like
01:02:04
trying to bring you know fresh food to
01:02:06
people's houses um is really hard like
01:02:09
the cold chain um and the risk that you
01:02:11
carry and particularly no one done it
01:02:12
before like nowadays it just seems
01:02:13
common you know practice but back in the
01:02:15
days when we did it you know it was it
01:02:18
was you know completely unique and new
01:02:19
and so there were lots of complexity and
01:02:21
learning on the job and um but I love
01:02:23
the challenge of it. Yes. One one thing
01:02:25
I find amazing, sometimes I'll go to
01:02:26
McDonald's and I'll there'll be
01:02:27
something missing from my bag. But my
01:02:29
food bag, there's never been a missing
01:02:31
spring onion. E, I'm glad that's Yeah,
01:02:34
you know, but it seems like there
01:02:35
there's a huge amount of scope for
01:02:37
things to go wrong and um there is.
01:02:39
Yeah, I mean all of our, you know, our
01:02:41
key performance indicators that we've
01:02:42
had from we've always tracked that the
01:02:43
number of, you know, mispicks or, you
01:02:45
know, the delivery time frames that you
01:02:47
have. All of those are key things that
01:02:48
you look at as a business as a key
01:02:49
metric to measure your success from that
01:02:51
past weekend. And there have been weeks
01:02:53
that our metrics in particular in the
01:02:55
early days weren't great and you know
01:02:56
you look yourself in a mirror as a CEO
01:02:58
and you try to do better right and
01:02:59
you're constantly holding yourself to
01:03:00
the highest account there. So yeah, it's
01:03:02
it's a lot of things that go on. And I
01:03:04
remember, you know, in my food bag, I
01:03:05
think what was hard was that because my
01:03:07
food bag was a weekend business, you'd
01:03:08
work all week and then we'd be doing
01:03:10
packing Friday, Saturday, and we
01:03:11
delivered on a Sunday. And so you never
01:03:13
had a day off. Like there it was just
01:03:15
relentless. And if something went wrong,
01:03:16
it would always go wrong on Sunday. And
01:03:18
so, you know, you dread Sunday, right?
01:03:20
Because that would be the day of the
01:03:21
week that you know, everything if
01:03:22
something was bad, that's a day that it
01:03:24
would happen. And so I said to someone
01:03:26
the other day, I was actually joking
01:03:27
because I just recently turned 40. And
01:03:30
one of my birthdays, um, Nadia actually
01:03:33
had her first baby, Bodie, on my
01:03:34
birthday. But that year that I was
01:03:36
pregnant with Ila in 2016, I was
01:03:38
literally barefoot and pregnant inside
01:03:41
my food bags, um, customer service um,
01:03:44
office um, because we'd identified a
01:03:47
case of lististeria in our spinach and
01:03:49
we needed to go through and and and
01:03:50
manage that. And meanwhile, Nadia was
01:03:52
opting out of it, giving birth. you know
01:03:53
how inconsiderate, right?
01:03:56
Priorities, Nadia. I was like, what are
01:03:58
you doing? Um, thankfully it was on my
01:04:00
birthday though, so I feel like I could
01:04:01
forgive her for that. But those are the
01:04:02
days that you remember, right? Like you
01:04:04
know how you you know, again, you're
01:04:06
just fronting up, you know, you're
01:04:08
highly and it doesn't matter. You just,
01:04:09
you know, it's it was hard. How did you
01:04:12
get Nadia involved? She was sort of a
01:04:13
key component in it, I feel. Yeah, she
01:04:14
was. I actually um we'd looked at like a
01:04:17
range of different people who we wanted
01:04:18
to be part of the business. people like
01:04:19
Josh Emador um Chelsea at that point who
01:04:22
had recently won Master Chef and Nadia
01:04:24
had won the year prior and so um I'd
01:04:27
worked her into the business plan and
01:04:28
actually developed a business plan for
01:04:30
her which was called um my food bag
01:04:32
without NLM because I didn't want her to
01:04:33
know how much we actually wanted her and
01:04:35
so I reached out to her had a response
01:04:36
from her husband Carlos who um you know
01:04:39
came straight back to us and said cool
01:04:41
let's catch up he thought we were going
01:04:42
to do something like baby food um but
01:04:44
actually obviously it was my food bag
01:04:45
instead and they jumped on a flight to
01:04:47
Europe and then came back 3 weeks later
01:04:49
and told us that they were in. So, it
01:04:50
was pretty cool. Yeah. Being um you
01:04:53
mentioned um her husband Carlos before
01:04:54
and just how much of a sport he was. So,
01:04:57
you obviously had a great relationship
01:04:58
with those. Um there was an incident a
01:05:01
few years ago where some some some rich
01:05:04
guy criticized her, called her like Euro
01:05:06
Asian fluff or something. It's a real uh
01:05:09
nasty um character attack. As a as a
01:05:12
friend, like how is that for you? Like
01:05:15
what do you do? Um well I mean I I'm
01:05:19
still mad about it. It still makes me
01:05:21
incredibly angry. And just for context
01:05:23
there you know Nadia um because it was
01:05:26
in regards to my food bags IPO which
01:05:28
happened in 2021. There was a lot of
01:05:29
companies that listed in that period and
01:05:31
the share markets as we all know have
01:05:32
been really wobbly on and off since that
01:05:34
period. Um and Nadia was criticized for
01:05:38
her involvement in the IPO which was um
01:05:40
completely irrelevant to be completely
01:05:42
blunt. There was one photo of Nadia in
01:05:44
the prospectus docu document which was
01:05:46
you know a completely normal photo of
01:05:48
someone and you know this person picked
01:05:50
up on it and I don't even want to say
01:05:52
his name and um it was just it was just
01:05:55
wild and what was frustrating I think
01:05:56
was that you know the founder group had
01:05:59
sold my fur bag you know four or five
01:06:02
years before it listed you know we were
01:06:03
no longer CEOs we were no longer on the
01:06:05
board and we had no control of the
01:06:07
company and suddenly this group of women
01:06:09
are being blamed for something that
01:06:10
wasn't of our
01:06:12
um by someone who didn't know what they
01:06:14
were talking about and he got all this
01:06:15
air time to undermine her. So, I mean,
01:06:17
what do you do? I'm a kind of an actions
01:06:18
and solutions person. So, you know, in
01:06:21
that period after that had happened, you
01:06:23
know, went back um onto my food banks
01:06:25
board and obviously supported Nadia and
01:06:28
like I'm really proud, you know, our CEO
01:06:29
who's come in who's a guy called Mark
01:06:31
Winter came in in that same phase as I
01:06:32
came back. He's done a phenomenal job
01:06:34
with the business, right? He's one of
01:06:35
the most amazing leaders in this country
01:06:38
and you know I'm just so proud to be
01:06:40
involved with the business again today.
01:06:42
Um but that was a really hard period for
01:06:44
all of us and you know I think what you
01:06:46
do you're measured by your actions right
01:06:47
and our action was to take action to you
01:06:50
know to make sure that we were involved
01:06:52
again and me in particular and you know
01:06:54
bringing in a new CEO who's proven to be
01:06:56
incredibly capable and and a phenomenal
01:06:58
leader you know. Yeah. Yeah. She must
01:07:02
have been so hurt and humiliated. Oh,
01:07:03
look, it's a difficult thing. It would
01:07:05
be for anyone, right? You know, and
01:07:06
Nadia is just like me, we're both really
01:07:08
resilient human beings. And so, you
01:07:11
know, it's just about um you know, I
01:07:14
think the hardest thing is when people
01:07:15
make assertations about you now in
01:07:18
public and even if they're completely
01:07:19
inaccurate or um you know, they still
01:07:22
get that air time on it. And so there's
01:07:24
no you know, there's no consequence for
01:07:26
people spouting off things that are
01:07:27
simply not true and that you can prove
01:07:29
are not true. and you know there's
01:07:32
already you know you know 50 or
01:07:33
different you know other people
01:07:34
retweeting or saying whatever the heck
01:07:36
they want and there's no repercussions
01:07:37
for that and that's a hard thing right
01:07:40
what was the um what was the day like
01:07:42
when when you finally sell my food bag
01:07:45
what's that like being in that it's a
01:07:46
situation that most people listening to
01:07:48
this or watching this will never
01:07:49
experience yeah is it um yeah is it a h
01:07:53
like a champagne day or it was funny
01:07:55
like my husband literally came home I
01:07:57
remember because I'd got home earlier
01:07:58
than him and he must have been doing
01:08:00
something in the office to kind of close
01:08:01
it. And um I was home with Tom and um
01:08:04
and Ila who was very little at that
01:08:06
point and he kind of you know um grabbed
01:08:09
a beer out of the fridge and he was like
01:08:11
okay yeah like big day but you know it a
01:08:14
lot of things didn't change for us as a
01:08:15
family like we stayed living in the same
01:08:17
little bungalow that we'd had before we'
01:08:18
had that transaction and we lived in
01:08:21
that house for like another 4 years
01:08:22
after it. um we made sure that you know
01:08:25
with our parents um that it was a real
01:08:28
priority for us to ensure that our
01:08:29
parents had a lot of um support around
01:08:31
them. So you know we we made sure that
01:08:33
you know we helped our parents with that
01:08:35
and that they have got you know um
01:08:37
financial security and all of those
01:08:39
things that was important for us as
01:08:40
well. So you know you choose how it
01:08:42
changes you right you know James and I
01:08:43
have always been focused on giving back
01:08:45
to our community. We've always been
01:08:46
focused on being present parents and you
01:08:48
know you choose the type of person that
01:08:50
you want to be and you acknowledge the
01:08:51
fact that you are incredibly privileged
01:08:52
and yeah that's how we think about it.
01:08:54
Did you buy anything cool? Um did you
01:08:57
treat yourself? The first car that we
01:08:58
bought after this and it's actually
01:09:00
quite funny. He bought us like a TIG one
01:09:01
like it was like he bought us which we
01:09:03
still have we still have that one. So
01:09:06
that's not overly extravagant. Um we did
01:09:07
buy a beach house. That was kind of the
01:09:09
key thing that we really wanted and we
01:09:10
kind of identified a spot that we
01:09:12
wanted. That was kind of the key thing
01:09:13
that we did for ourselves after. Um, but
01:09:16
yeah, that was kind of it. And so we
01:09:18
were just happy. Like, you know, I think
01:09:20
that, you know,
01:09:22
happiness isn't getting what you want,
01:09:24
it's wanting what you have. And like, we
01:09:27
wanted what we already had. We loved our
01:09:28
little house that we were in with our
01:09:30
family. We, you know, were so lucky that
01:09:32
we had healthy children, that we'd
01:09:34
finally had Ila, you know, and so we
01:09:37
wanted what we already had. It didn't
01:09:38
change us. It didn't change the
01:09:39
happiness that we had, you know, if that
01:09:41
makes sense. But, you know, I'm not
01:09:42
going to say that it doesn't make a big
01:09:44
difference to have financial freedom
01:09:45
because it absolutely does. Like, you
01:09:47
know, it changes, you know. Yeah. It
01:09:49
hasn't changed your hunger though. Your
01:09:51
hunger or your drive? Was part of you
01:09:53
worried that it potentially would? No, I
01:09:55
don't think I'd ever worried about that.
01:09:57
No, I just I I did just your your
01:10:00
problems that you want to solve for are
01:10:01
much bigger. And so, you know, I that
01:10:03
never it didn't kind of strike me as if
01:10:05
that would be a risk. You know,
01:10:08
this has been so much fun. There was so
01:10:10
so much more to talk about. But we
01:10:11
barely touched. I'm sorry. We're you're
01:10:13
a busy lady. Where are you off to next?
01:10:14
I'm actually going into meeting with
01:10:16
Natif Fat Or who is a really amazing
01:10:18
partner of TENS and we do a lot of work
01:10:20
in the healthcare space together. And
01:10:22
so, you know, I'm really passionate
01:10:24
about health equity um and health
01:10:26
access. And you know, I think it's, you
01:10:28
know, it's a really interesting
01:10:30
conversation to be had around how we can
01:10:32
reach our communities throughout New
01:10:33
Zealand. And you know many people say
01:10:35
that the health system is really um you
01:10:37
know the system will say that people are
01:10:39
really hard to reach and bring into the
01:10:40
system but actually the system is hard
01:10:42
to reach and you know for people trying
01:10:44
to engage with it. And so I'm really
01:10:46
interested in how do you break down
01:10:48
barriers? How do you make sure that
01:10:49
people access the care when they need it
01:10:51
and in the way that is most suitable to
01:10:52
them at a price that you know they can
01:10:54
afford. And so yeah those are the types
01:10:57
of things that are you know top of mind
01:10:59
and ensuring that we can kind of build a
01:11:00
sustainable healthare system into the
01:11:02
future. And I feel quite amped about
01:11:04
that like I genuinely think that we can
01:11:06
build the best best healthare system in
01:11:07
the world. You know I look at our
01:11:09
problems and I see opportunities. And so
01:11:11
if I look back at this uh you know at
01:11:13
the end of my life and I can see that we
01:11:16
have significantly changed healthcare
01:11:18
outcomes that all of these articles that
01:11:20
we will see every winter about how
01:11:21
access is terrible and all of these
01:11:23
things. If we can get a handle on some
01:11:25
of those things and genuinely make a
01:11:27
turn the corner on, you know, how we can
01:11:29
build healthier communities into the
01:11:31
future, that is like that would be the
01:11:33
most amazing reward, right? So, yeah.
01:11:35
Well, thanks for choosing New Zealand.
01:11:36
We're lucky to have you. Thank you. Um,
01:11:38
and this meeting sounds very, very
01:11:39
important. I don't think you can walk
01:11:41
into that room and say, "Sorry, I'm I
01:11:43
was late. I was doing Dom's podcast."
01:11:44
Oh, no. I definitely will, though. I
01:11:46
absolutely will. I will blame you. I'll
01:11:48
blame you. Hey, um, can we just end with
01:11:50
some quickfire for my um, sponsors? the
01:11:52
Generate Kiwi Saver scheme have been
01:11:54
wonderful. Um, $500 to a charity of your
01:11:57
choice. If you answer these questions,
01:11:58
what what what's your favorite charity?
01:11:59
Um, where would you like the money to
01:12:01
go? Oh, it's a really hard question
01:12:02
because we support a broad range of
01:12:04
charities. Um, just because I was
01:12:08
recently there and I saw how phenomenal
01:12:10
they are. The team at Starship is always
01:12:12
outstanding and I think there's a lot of
01:12:14
work that can be continued to be done in
01:12:15
that space, but there's probably, you
01:12:17
know, variety would be another one. So,
01:12:19
yeah, quickfire. You said that. I'll
01:12:21
I'll stop talking now. Okay. Maybe uh
01:12:23
maybe we can do two. Variety and um
01:12:26
Starship. Okay. Cecilia Robinson, what's
01:12:28
the best piece of advice you've been
01:12:29
given about money? Ooh. Um.
01:12:33
Oh, what's the best piece of advice I've
01:12:35
been given about money? I think, you
01:12:37
know, you always have to budget as if
01:12:39
you don't have it. You know, I think
01:12:40
that's really important. And so, just
01:12:42
making sure that, you know, you are
01:12:44
really conscious about the decisions
01:12:45
that you make and is it a want or is it
01:12:47
a need, right? And that's still a
01:12:48
question that you know it doesn't matter
01:12:50
what your kind of you know financial
01:12:52
position should be. You should ask
01:12:53
yourself this. Is it a want or is it a
01:12:55
need? And and then you have to be
01:12:56
comfortable with what the answer is.
01:12:57
What's been your worst money mistake?
01:13:00
Ooh worst money mistake. Um probably
01:13:02
buying a car that rusted out in about
01:13:05
the space of a year and should have
01:13:06
probably looked into the type of car but
01:13:08
closer. What was it? I can actually It
01:13:11
was It was They probably will get them
01:13:13
and No, I won't I won't say what brand
01:13:14
it was. Does money buy you happiness?
01:13:16
Uh, absolutely not.
01:13:19
No. Are you a spender or a saver? A
01:13:22
saver. What's been your biggest money
01:13:24
mistake? Oh, we've passed that one.
01:13:26
Worst money. Um, where would you like to
01:13:28
retire? In New Zealand on a beach on a
01:13:30
tangy.
01:13:32
Oh, in Wick. Yes, 100%. Why? Sorry.
01:13:35
That's where our beach house is. So,
01:13:36
yeah, that's where, you know, that's I
01:13:37
love that space. It's got a really
01:13:39
special place in our hearts. How much of
01:13:41
a nest egg do you think would be a good
01:13:43
amount for retirement for someone? Well,
01:13:45
look, I mean, I think that when you're
01:13:46
thinking this is a much broader I and
01:13:48
because I'm also a director of a of a
01:13:50
Kiwi saver company, I would say um you
01:13:54
know, I think when you say a quantum
01:13:56
like a million dollars, it sounds like a
01:13:57
lot to people, but actually we have to
01:13:58
prepare for the fact that we have to
01:13:59
live for much longer and we have to
01:14:02
think about the mechanics of how that
01:14:03
works. So, I don't have probably an easy
01:14:04
answer, but I think you need a lot more
01:14:05
than what you think you do. What's some
01:14:07
Kiwi Saver advice you'd give to
01:14:09
everyone? Um, Kiwi Saver is really
01:14:11
important and if you're not joined up,
01:14:12
join like make sure that you're part of
01:14:14
a program. Make sure that you know that
01:14:16
you're making your contributions. Make
01:14:17
sure that you maximizing them because I
01:14:19
think what's really important about it
01:14:20
is that, you know, it's really easy to
01:14:22
think about what your um wants are
01:14:25
today, but actually your needs in the
01:14:27
future are really equally important. And
01:14:29
so separating those two things out, you
01:14:31
know, um is really important and and I
01:14:33
think it's a phenomenal thing to be part
01:14:34
of. And last one, best thing about being
01:14:37
a Kiwi? Everything. Everything. I love
01:14:40
being in Kiwi. I'm so lucky to be the
01:14:42
fact that I don't just feel lucky to be
01:14:44
here, but I feel like the fact that I've
01:14:45
got my citizenship and this is my home,
01:14:47
right? So, I'm a chosen Kiwi and and I
01:14:50
love it. Well, thanks so much for
01:14:51
choosing New Zealand. Sweden. We're
01:14:53
sorry. She's ours and we love her. Thank
01:14:56
you.
