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[Music] okay welcome back to another episode of the waveform podcast we're your hosts i'm marquez and i'm andrew
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and i'm david hi that was so smooth thank you yeah that was incredible i've been told i'm a very smooth
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person david welcome to the podcast uh you've been on audio episodes before but happy to have you here
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we've talked about what we're gonna do in this episode which is a sort of a larger conversation or uh
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exploration repair the topic is incredibly complicated and has a lot of different perspectives and facets to it
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i feel like we're gonna explore and dive into as many as we can but the whole point of this is to uh is to understand it better
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and there's uh there's not a whole lot that hasn't been talked about in different places we're just bringing it all in one
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place here uh so if you haven't already watched the right to repair video on the main mkbhd
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channel do watch it it's like 20 minutes long and has some interviews in it we'll be talking about more than that
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and clearly for longer than 20 minutes here so this is uh this is a little extra on top anyway all
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right where do we even start i don't know how to start this okay i i want to bring up something that like
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got me thinking about right to repair in the first place and then had me coming out and asking you are we ever
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gonna do that right to repair video yeah and it was actually related to the boosted episode
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so okay if you guys haven't like heard the boosted episode yet you should listen to it um i did some
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follow-up interviews after the boosted episode and there are these kids they go to this college and they're trying to
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keep boosted boards working uh so i'm david and i am the founder of xr general hospital
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and i fix boosted boards and they have these uh they basically call it a boosted
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hospital where they have people that send in their boards and they fix them and they've like worked with
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manufacturers in china to get these parts that they only made for boosted the company and they're trying to keep them alive
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and it turns out they are really big right to repair advocates imaginably so when they brought that up
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to me i was like you know marquez did mention he wanted to do a red repair video um maybe this could kind of turn
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into something so that's kind of what really got the wheels turning right so if you haven't seen first of
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all the boosted episode is great it's a whole exploration of like the rise and fall of boosted boards
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and how that i mean had a really high apex and then a really low uh trough at the bottom but it's a really good like overall story to follow but for me right to repair is
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interesting because uh the more i look into it especially for the video that we ended up making the more i ended up being on
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the side of like it seems really really difficult for for like any one final conclusion to
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work because there are two forces that are going to always be working against each other which is tech getting more and more well
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integrated and and better and harder and harder to repair and then people wanting to be able to
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repair that stuff and they will always be at odds with each other and that was the part i had
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the hardest time with spoke to lewis rossman about it he gave me his two cents which i really liked
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which was i just wanted to be if you're gonna glue something into the device whatever it is i'm willing to jump
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through all those hoops to to fix it but don't tell the company that made this part they're not allowed to
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sell it to me it may seem hard to understand that this stuff is going to continue to get harder to repair but they're up for that
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challenge people who actually repair these things also evolve with the tech now we were talking about this before like i don't know how deep that goes like when you're talking like
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soldering the memory to the sensor of a camera or or literally just combining parts that used
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to be three different pieces into one piece like you could say that's done to make it
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obsolete later you could say that's done to make it harder to repair but also typically it makes it better like
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the the image processing happens faster when it's on a chip closer to the image that needs to be
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processed so all this stuff is is always at odds but i'm curious what other stuff you've dug up
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uh maybe there's a devil's advocate side of like the anti-right to repair movement i
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don't even i don't think it's even a movement it's more of just like yeah the constant lobbying and conversation from those who
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don't support right trip yeah i mean just to like play off your point there i mean like ibm last week announced two nanometer processors right
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two nanometers yeah okay with a whole new architecture type so they're not even using finfet anymore
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and this is just an example of like how deeply integrated tech is getting like they're using ultraviolet light to
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create these chips because the visible light spectrum has too big of a wavelength
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to actually fit transistors so like this is the point in which no you can't go in there and fix these things because they're thinner than a strand of dna
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it's not like it's not like you can go in there with tools right but once we get to that point you
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know there's so many benefits four times better battery life with two nanometer your phone could last
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five days on a single charge you know it's like very very useful yeah um but regardless
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yeah i tried to i tried to talk to as many people on as many sides as we could get a hold of um got lucky
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and was able to speak to the julian sanchez i'm the director of emerging technologies at john deere which sounds i always find this part
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interesting when like this like we are so focused in the tech world but tech has
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tech like enthusiasts and right to repair enthusiasts have like made this alliance with these
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farmers and a lot of them are like it's very based in nebraska it feels like i know my sister-in-law is a reporter in
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nebraska and they cover a ton and just like john deere has created the same kind of problem that we're seeing with like apple where it's like these farmers want to be able to repair these machines and therefore
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is stopping in a similar way apple is so now you don't really see farmers and tech nerds like banding together too often but
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but here we are but also everything is tech like when yeah i learned so much watching those john
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deere videos about how high-tech those tractors are when i think of a tractor i just think everything you pour gasoline in and drive across the field but like
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they have so many automated systems to the point where like they save lots of money by relying on the tech in
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these tractors and how how exactly the irrigation is distributing like you know pesticides and things like that
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like it's it's really high-tech stuff so in 2021 you can find a tech argument or a tech
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angle to almost everything so it almost doesn't surprise me that tractors are looped into that
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which is why like this general discussion right now is gonna have such big precedent for the future
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um and i think the reason it becomes such a discussion and the reason we really dove into it other than you talked to the people with
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boosted it brought up the conversation we all sat down one day and had like a three hour conversation about what we were because like it's really hard to pick one side
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there's i think most of us would lean towards the right to repair side obviously but there's a lot of times when these bigger
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companies bring up points that total are hard to argue exactly it's really really hard to argue some of
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those points so that's why i think we reached out to all these different people to try and get a better idea
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from people in the the realm of what's going on you want to get a more balanced you know
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viewpoint right because it's like i obviously like you said we we're all going to kind of like
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lean towards right to repair yeah but talking to the cto of john deere i was like oh wow like the amount of things that are benefited by the amount of
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technology that they put in these tractors and first of all i just want to say like i loved that it we ended up taking this
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like tractor angle because when you think of tech and then you think of farming i think that's not the
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first thing that comes to mind it's not a but then you say like everything is tech and it's like oh yeah and a really good point that um
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the cto brought up to me was that farming is kind of a unique industry because this is one of the great things
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about agriculture which is that environmental sustainability and profitability are actually
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one and the same in a lot of space in a lot of spaces you have to sort of sacrifice something in order to get environmental sustainability
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in farming if you can ultimately get to a point where you don't have to apply or use as much stuff
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you are making money and you are benefiting the environment so they actually have a benefit like
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they have this incentive to optimize better and farming is all about optimization right
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like how much water exactly can you use to get the most crops possible he told me that one of their tractors that they have right now can use ai to determine what is a weed
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and what is a plant while it is driving over these crops and then it will only spray the
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pesticides on the weeds and they save 90 of the pesticides that they were spraying before they use this tractor with this ai which is insane and again it's like good for the environment
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way less pesticides it saves the farmers tons of money um this is why it was hard for me
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because like i like i fall on the side of yes we should have right to repair and that's where i landed with the video
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but i also want tech to get better exactly like i want that 90 savings and i want the obvious
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benefits that come with optimization to be available to all and to keep moving forward so like all of those
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arguments that i fully understand like it's it's easy to take aside if you work for one of these companies
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absolutely so i can imagine if you work for not just john deere but you know tesla or apple or any number of
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companies that as lewis as lewis rossman would put it pretty much every company has some sort of anti-right to repair stance
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um i could see how they would land on the don't you want us to make our stuff better don't you want those
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savings don't you want the tech to continue to move forward that's going to be the argument every time and that's why it's hard to argue
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but else on the other side we're like well the screen breaks i don't want to have to yeah the whole thing out yeah it's it's
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it's really interesting because uh you know i was kind of pressing him on like because we watched these videos
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from like motherboard did a video on like uh this movement with these farmers to get
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the tractors more uh repairable i guess i guess the the main problem that they have right now is that these tractors at
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this point are all very integrated like we talked about earlier like the more integrated the better the technology gets
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and so because of this there's sensors all over the tractor they can determine and things are going wrong and they can
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throw error codes if they throw specific error codes you can't really use the tractor until
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you bring it into a service center or what he said is that a service center agent will actually get dispatched out
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to you because they also have lte and as soon as it noticed that there is an issue it will send a text message to the farmer and say hey this has an issue that needs to be
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worked on by a service person do you want us to dispatch someone right now or do you want to bring it in
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there's a lot of cases where the dealer will call the customer ahead of time and say hey have you seen the trouble code oh no
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i'm really busy okay well we saw it and there's there is a repair person on the way to to help you out um
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so that's that's kind of crazy too and what these farmers are basically pushing for is like they don't want to have to deal with the
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time it takes to have one of these out of commission but something that and i'm again i'm playing devil's ad kit i
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don't want to be like uh just a marketing mouthpiece for john deere well let's be clear about talking for
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sure um but he did tell me that 95 of the problems on the tractors can be fixed with just standard tools and you don't need anybody out there like he said the tractor is able to
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determine problems with like if you have a leaky um hose of some kind that like a pressure hose it knows that that is
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leaky because it's not getting certain pressure readings off of this pressure sensor and you can replace that with any third-party part
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he said 90 95 times out of 100 you are able to fix that as a farmer it's just when you get these specific error error codes where like things are a bigger problem and their
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worry there is like if you've seen these tractors like at ces they have these characters that they started um they're bigger than this room they're freaking massive they are so big
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and like you don't want to risk the chance of like you know something major malfunctioning because it's a very
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computerized thing and they've run themselves and they are self-driving like autopilot tractors yeah like at
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this point it is just an operator sitting in the seat that kind of pivots like you're in a starship
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or something and you're not even really pressing anything you're just making sure that you're not running over anything
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terrible because you said something that's kind of funny that they have not yet figured out is uh there are no
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systems at the moment in uh commercialized that are doing obstacle recognition and therefore avoidance they
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have self-driving but like if you've got like i don't know a barrel in the field or something it'll just run right over
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it okay we gotta work on that one so they've got all this technology but they don't have that which is kind of funny
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um but anyway yeah i know i would love to hear you guys thoughts on that i mean yeah when i okay so we can go we'll
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start with the tractor stuff i feel like uh obviously i'm not a farmer so i'm not going to have the educated opinion about
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what tractors should and shouldn't do but no it makes a lot of sense i i keep hearing that as soon as something goes down
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farmers are dealing with the downtime but they're also dealing with the amount of money it takes them to bring
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the tractor into wherever that service center for john deere is to have it fixed and then to get it all the way back it could be thousands of
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dollars and so if the farmer had the ability to fix any and every problem that would help
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their business that would help their their downtime everything would be better for the farmer john deere sees it as a liability the
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way i understand it where if someone does go into those five percent of problems where it really
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shouldn't be touched by someone who doesn't know what they're doing and then they hurt themselves or they damage the whole tractor
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then it looks bad to john deere and now john deere has to deal with even more stuff so they just want to limit that liability which is
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what companies do i get it um so i don't even again i don't have a conclusion or a side to
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take it's just like that's the way it's going to look i think it's always going to be
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maybe not easy but there will always be an argument because even if it's 95 of the time even if john deere's
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customer service is incredible there's going to be a time where that five percent happens on
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a really bad day for that farmer that they need their stuff right away they're on a really bad time crunch it's going
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to happen and they can't wait for that and if they they know if they have the tools they could fix it and no matter what no matter how good
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everyone works those complaints are going to be pushed to the front yeah we're always going to see that as an issue and the minute one farmer talks
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to all their other farmers i mean this isn't just farmers this is people using iphones this is people using computers
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like if i have a problem with something and i can't get it fixed right away or i get inconvenienced i'm going to complain to
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everybody yeah no it's it's this weird balance right because obviously if you're using 90 less
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pesticides you are much more fuel efficient because it is you know driving itself so you're
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not driving over the same path multiple times or like this is all optimization so you have to balance like
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that potential downtime that you're going to have with the benefit of like how much extra crop are you
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going to have and it just becomes this like sure this is going to be very difficult
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to deal with like twice a year yeah but all the benefits that you're getting from that like does that outweigh that potential
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downtime you have i i want to pivot to tesla because i think this can kind of encapsulate a bunch of versions of this
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and of course i like talking about tesla all the time so you know here we are um so i my first car was a
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was a hybrid it was a toyota camry hybrid right and when i was shopping for cars one of
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the things i kept hearing from dealerships was if you have a regular gas car and something breaks
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it's pretty easy and pretty good chance that you're going to find a way to fix that now obviously you can
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do oil changes and you can do simple fixes but if uh if something breaks in the gas car there's going to be someone at a
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shop nearby who can know what to do with it and if you get a hybrid they kept telling me this if you get a
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hybrid not too many people are going to want to touch that there's just way more electrical in there if you get a prius if you get a
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camera hybrid any of these things like you'll have better mileage you'll have an overall better it's more
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fuel efficient and all these things will be better about it you have eco mode you have like an electric only mode
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but if something breaks no one's gonna really want to touch it and then my next car was electric
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and it's the extreme end of that which is if literally anything breaks whether it's something with the computer or the electrical or the motors or the battery or any other part of this car yeah no
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one in any regular third-party shop is going to want to touch that you have to go back to tesla
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but it's the best car i've ever had right is that trade-off that's the worth fit yeah to people i'm
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doing air quotes for audio listeners is that worth it and i think one of the potential questions is are these
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newer more high-tech more well-integrated things breaking less often than the previous older
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things that were easier to fix so if something's 10 times harder to repair but only breaks
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one out of every you know one-tenth of the amount of times that the old-school stuff broke is it worth the trade-off right curious
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what you guys think of that yeah and i think this is a conversation that we had for like three hours in the office because you
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can take anything to the nth degree right so for if we're like okay uh you have these future m5 max
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that are so integrated they use two nanometer everything and like the processor is like you know this
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big but like everything is so deeply integrated but because it's so deeply integrated individual modules don't really break
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and the whole thing falls apart 1 100th of the time but then you do just have to buy a new one if it
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breaks down it's like where does that trade off become useful and it becomes profitable for the
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company but it's also pro when does it be also become profitable for the consumer because the whole point of right to
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repair is yeah you don't want to lose money by having to replace a whole thing instead
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of just a part exactly but it's more cost effective i think that that like curve i don't know how to
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explain this but it rel it lands somewhere in the value of that thing to you so if it's my phone and you told me you
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could have an unbreakable phone but or an almost unbreakable phone but an almost completely unrepairable phone i would take that yeah but if you told me i have to have a car or something i
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rely on every day and i can't quickly get a new one and it's almost unbreakable but if it does break you
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just have to get rid of that car i would be less likely to take that risk so i'm saying if it's a more disposable thing
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i'm willing to take that because the price pretty much if it's a if it's a lower value thing i'm i'm willing to
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sacrifice the right to repair but if it's a high value thing i still want that ability to repair i think i i think
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one thing though in this this debate about more unbreakable versus more repairable
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is user error that we're not talking about right now because in all these situations that makes
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perfect sense if the phone's used correctly or whatever but how many broken screens are there how many destroyed corners or
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charging ports get destroyed from somebody or and yes i know we will get to the point where that's getting harder and harder to break but i
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guarantee you we will break them or with a car like you're like a tesla makes perfect sense there are way few
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moving parts so if you use your car perfectly all the time it will most likely outlast a motor i
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mean we haven't gotten official stuff on that but chance there's way less things to do
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so it's easier to mess up but you can mess it up and when you do or yours wasn't even your fault a tractor trailer
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sideswiped you yeah no other car would take two months to fix that part right because it happened that did
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there's there's always this user error aspect of it and i feel like i probably i'd love to ask lewis how many things does he get
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brought into him tech wise at least that are because apple messed up and it broke or because a user messed up and it broke so yeah i
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when we talk about user error we're just you know talking about how many of the repairs do you think are happening
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because somebody did something wrong and their thing broke or just because they were using it like it was perfectly intended
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to and it just happened to break i would be so curious about those ratios in a bunch of different like industries
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exactly because i feel like cars like obviously you hit something you're gonna have to get your car repaired but you're right but if you drive a
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tesla the exact same way that you drive a normal gas car the brake pads on the tesla will last
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50 100 times as long because you don't use brake pads nearly as much because of regenerative braking from the motors
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so the brake pads are just rated to last the lifetime of the car which is insane there's just one less moving part one
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less thing to have to replace or break or fix that i mean they still have brake pads because you don't always regenerative
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brake but it's just one less part that is likely to eventually reach the end of its life in your car and that's the type of thing
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that i think cars of the future are going to continue to improve on there's going to be more things where it's like well cars in the past used to have a
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whole moving steering wheel inside the car and now we don't have those anymore because they would break eventually i guess um
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bad example but i was going to say yeah nobody knows nobody breaks the stairs but i'm sure there's lots of
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switches inside there that people are like breaking off where plastic would break but that's the that's the inevitable
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future it's like okay cars are just going to keep getting more and more well integrated and they will ideally last longer and longer
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but if they ever have something that breaks because of user error they will immediately be subject to a way longer process of going
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back to the manufacturer versus a regular gas car where you could have fixed it yourself right so that that is
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an exact example of uh when i talk to fairphone something that they're trying to fix
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okay so it's funny that you bring up like user air and system error because at some point they almost kind of converge right every
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single year apple releases a new iphone they always talk about how the screen is better it's less shadow resistant right
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that's like a combination more more shadow resistance or more shadows in theory anyway yeah in theory yeah you
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know it's like they're talking about like it will crack less and all this stuff and it becomes like a feature of the
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phone so in that way it's also like a feature but then it's also a user area when you break it so i don't
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either way uh fairphone was really interesting to talk to they actually contacted us after the wretch repair video went live
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because they wanted to chat about their phone uh they're this company from amsterdam and they make phones that are supposed
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to be as basically like repairable as possible um they are not the newest phones i think the newest one is still running on android 10 and they use like generally lower end
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qualcomm processors um but for people who like really care about like replacing individual things
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in their phones they make it really easy so you can either swap out the screen everything is it's almost like project
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aura in a way from google if you guys remember that yeah okay very similar like they have these modules um
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the fairphone 3 plus is actually just the fairphone 3 but they released some updated camera modules so if you don't
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want to buy it three plus you can actually swap out the cameras in the three and then you have a three
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plus right so anything that breaks or if things get better you can sort of just upgrade it almost like a pc
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but then again you get that downside of okay i asked him in particular i was like well a lot of people replace their phones because they start to feel slow right and if you're using these like mid-range older qualcomm processors
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like our people are really going to be excited about that i mean a big part of the marketing in like any new chipset launch or any
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new phone launch is how much faster the new processor the best processor we've ever made right um but
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fairphone wants to take a different approach and this was really interesting to me they said ideally they would like their
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customers to have one of their phones for seven years even with spare parts even with having
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to change your battery after two years and a half and doing the the some upgrades
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when you want you still end up in those uh 30 reduction if we even push it to seven years which
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might sound super crazy but it's technologically not impossible we think you would be
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talking about 45 percent reduction and that's using the same type of phones right we're only talking about
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extending the use uh the use face because the refresh cycle of general phones is like two to three now and you know if you're a real tech head you replace your phone
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like every year so they want people to use these phones and they're like okay my screen broke
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i'll buy a new screen module slap it on my camera broke i'll buy a new camera module slap it on
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right um but again you've got all these downsides which is like you can't make it faster
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they do guarantee five years of software updates okay but they said only when it's
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needed so it's also a hard guarantee when you want seven year life to not guarantee yeah and also and also
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like a chipset doesn't necessarily support you know the software that long so it's kind of a
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it's a weird thing a big part of the way they made the company is because they are actually trying to make the
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world like more sustainable he brought up this good point of the fact that like so if you if you look at the at the
00:26:02
whole um ecosystem of materials um every year only around 10 percent actually less so there's some reports that say like somewhere between nine and ten percent
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of material that is used in industry and all the different industries not only in the consumer electronics industry
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only ten percent gets recycled so the other 90 percent is just stuff that ends up
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either in hibernation so in the drawers in our homes or in a landfill but it does not get
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recycled and this is so every year i just want to make this picture every year 90
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comes from the ground from a mine let's say and gets landfill to make it super simplistic it
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does not get recycled the amount of devices that we have just sitting in our drawers and stuff
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not being utilized when they could be utilized and then other people are going out and buying new things but there's there's actually a cobalt
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shortage right now which is rare earth metal that's used in a lot of batteries and a lot of devices and it's just using a ton of devices
00:27:02
and they've been working really really hard to try to make the minds of these cobalt minds
00:27:08
like have better working conditions and to get more value out of the minds while also like treating the people
00:27:13
better because obviously it's like really bad not great and it's it's it's we're at this point where it's like kind of sad because we have all these devices sitting in our drawers that have cobalt
00:27:24
in them and if you you can recycle i think he said about 90 80 to 90 percent of the cobalt in
00:27:30
devices pretty effectively and yet there's a shortage when we have all these devices every single person has an old phone or an old this or that that has cobalt in it it creates a lot
00:27:42
of waste and being in that kind of environmentalist front as an architecture student i have to
00:27:48
worry a lot about where these products that i'm using for my education go it's kind of
00:27:53
antithetical if i'm you know practicing sustainable building and sustainable uh design i need to make sure that the
00:27:59
things i'm using do not contribute to something that i'm trying to stop yeah this is really curious to me i'm going to try to make
00:28:06
an analogy but it will see if it works or not but i think it's really interesting that they still
00:28:11
despite being modular expect it to last seven years and then you get rid of it and i wonder what that limiting factor is is it just because it's gonna get too slow after seven years and won't support
00:28:23
the software anymore or is it just because peop well the other thing is how many people want to buy a phone that
00:28:29
isn't as performant because it will be more repairable in the future um and you're talking about how there's so much cobalt in the world but it's inside of gadgets that we don't use anymore and i'm thinking like
00:28:41
i remember when i get like a a notebook for school and i would like take notes on like half the pages and
00:28:47
then once the class was over i didn't need to take notes on it anymore and i just got rid of that notebook i didn't use
00:28:53
the last 50 pages in the book they're perfectly usable blank pages but i just don't
00:28:58
feel the need to use those because they're part of something i'm done using right and it's like is there going to be
00:29:04
any way to get people to want to use their old gadgets to want to repair to want to take advantage of
00:29:11
these extra resources we know we have or do people just want the newest thing no matter what it feels like that's kind of
00:29:16
yeah and it's it's like where capitalism is at i think that's what you know people always want the newest thing yeah it's just that conversation was so
00:29:23
interesting to me because it's another angle of right to repair there's so many angles now there's the like you should be able to do whatever
00:29:29
you want with the devices you own there's the you should be able to fix anything and have access to the parts
00:29:34
that the manufacturers have and then there's also the sustainability angle of like we are destroying our
00:29:40
planet by just like replacing our devices constantly and so that's like that's like three or four different major angles to to this idea
00:29:47
yeah and i think that's also a lit i don't want to say it's downfall but a reason why the messaging has not been
00:29:54
really loud yeah it's not it's not as easy to lump everything into one easy to adjustable sentence you know um can we talk about the printer thing from that video yes i just want to i
00:30:04
just want to bring this up because we we do research for videos and it just takes us down random paths and i just
00:30:10
felt the need to tell people about this okay so the example we used in the beginning of the write to repair video
00:30:15
can you do anything you want with the thing you own and you buy an object you get to use it
00:30:22
however you want but if you buy like a potentially dangerous object you can't use it to harm people that's against the law
00:30:27
but like what if you just buy a printer you can just do whatever you want with the printer right you can put it on whatever table in any room you want
00:30:34
you can plug it in any outlet you please like connect it to any wi-fi yeah it feels like it
00:30:39
potentially but you get it working and you can just go ham get whatever paper you want print
00:30:46
on napkins print on regular paper print red white and blue i wouldn't suggest snapping yes i wouldn't suggest it but
00:30:52
you can if you want to um but if you try to photocopy money currency legal tender it actually won't let you do it or print
00:31:03
either or print it at all and that's because the printer well not the printer so it is illegal to
00:31:09
print money and so the printer companies have built in a way of recognizing when some sort of
00:31:16
legal tender is being printed or photocopied there's actually a really specific dot pattern that has a name
00:31:21
that appears on many major currencies and they're all like you can find it on the dollar and
00:31:27
the euro and every every like piece of paper money has this dot pattern and you can just put that dot pattern on
00:31:34
a piece of paper and it won't print it so if you try to photocopy some money like some printers will throw up an
00:31:40
error message on the screen like i won't do this some will get halfway through then see
00:31:45
the dot pattern then blank the rest of the page so you get like half a dollar bill it's really interesting seeing this happen
00:31:51
but this isn't because like there is some physical limitation of the printer this is something that you bought that you own that is perfectly capable of doing this thing
00:32:02
but they're not going to let you because they don't want to have that liability on themselves somebody printed money
00:32:07
with an epson printer and now epson looks bad so i don't know that's just like a random uh
00:32:13
quirk of like the the ownership like we all think of ownership as being able to do whatever you want that it is physically able to do and if you're able to repair the thing physically speaking i'm just going to do
00:32:25
it no one should be able to stop me uh but that's that's there's no yet another wrinkle in
00:32:30
that because there's always going to be people trying to stop you to do trying to stop you from doing things that you should be able to do
00:32:36
yeah it's it's funny um that photocopy thing actually even transcends to a lot of photo editing software i tried to
00:32:41
open a 10 bill in photoshop oh yeah it throws this random error code that references this law from like the 80s or
00:32:50
something yeah it makes perfect sense like you and if you draw if you drag a png of money into photoshop because
00:32:57
i'm not touching this you can't have this in a layer it's funny because we were doing a video on a 300 phone i think and i had
00:33:06
200 bills for the thumbnail i needed one more and i was like all right we'll just photoshop like we'll just copy another
00:33:12
one because i can't i can't print money obviously so we'll just make another one and we couldn't even do that i forgot how we actually figured that out
00:33:19
i don't remember either yet but that that's just such a random it's a great yeah no i mean it's that's another it's like that's a whole other angle to write to repair too is like the
00:33:29
the ability to do whatever you want with the things you you own right and that's i think that's what these um
00:33:35
the farmers are angry at there's a lot of people who you know there's these stories about people who put the
00:33:40
autopilot stuff on their teslas and it's like they shouldn't be doing that and the car gets mad at them and then tesla doesn't want to be liable when
00:33:46
people hurt themselves but then you were talking to simone right and she said that like yeah the
00:33:52
project got so much traction that it would like look really bad for them to go after me
00:33:57
but it's also like i i mean i i remember um scheduling a service appointment because
00:34:04
i wasn't i had some software issues and the service tech before i came in called and was like hey i know who you are and i know what you've done to your car
00:34:16
and i was so freaked out that i actually didn't go and it's kind of weird that like you're scared of a company punishing you
00:34:23
for doing something with their product simone's story was interesting uh so if you haven't seen what simone
00:34:30
did with her model 3 which she still drives by the way which is amazing uh she took the back half of off of it and
00:34:36
turned into a pickup truck like i still get alarms going off in my car being like hey your seat belt and the rear seat isn't plugged in and i'm like there is no rear seat that's what you
00:34:48
don't know and the project is great and i wanted to keep as much of the structural integrity of the original model 3 as possible but
00:34:55
like you see that thing driving around on the street and you're like i've never seen anything like that before it's so cool um but when you go to that length to
00:35:03
modify your car sawing off beams and like putting other truck parts in there obviously that's not covered under any sort of warranty not only that but it'll probably be strongly discouraged by tesla
00:35:15
and whenever something happens to a tesla that is against their like terms of use
00:35:21
basically they have every right to shut that car off of software updates to blacklist that car's vin number from supercharging to do whatever they want to essentially
00:35:32
discourage the continued use of that car and also probably safety um they didn't
00:35:37
do any of that with simon's car they still let her supercharge you still get software updates the only thing it does is it keeps
00:35:43
pinging her to buckle the back seat of the car but there is no back seat of the car uh but that's just a funny like okay if
00:35:51
tesla sees this one project and it's really good pr and they don't want to do anything about it they don't have to
00:35:57
but at the same time if you're somewhere in the middle if you're somewhere and i just want to i don't know chop out the
00:36:03
back seats in my car and put in different back seats like i don't think they're going to do that and there's there's a very good
00:36:09
chance they have a good reason for you to not do that it's like the farmers are they don't they don't like that they physically can't use their tractor when it throws
00:36:15
these error codes that's that's the biggest issue for them is like they are like i bought this why
00:36:20
does it just not work now and i don't have control over that and that's what they like very much dislike
00:36:26
but it's the exact same thing as tesla where like it could be a major safety concern because these these like tractors are freaking huge so
00:36:33
really it's this conversation of like do you have the right to be dangerous with the stuff that you bought from
00:36:38
other people yeah that's kind of like we'll start with yeah also to take it back to printers which
00:36:44
are not risky at all why can't you print things with black ink when you're out of yellow ink like seriously that's like big printer
00:36:51
it's it's completely physically possible for me to change the text in my document to blue
00:36:57
and print it in blue and i'm out of black ink just printed in blue and it's like i can't print anything right now
00:37:02
like why that doesn't make any sense it's a big printer man to go back though on like we're talking
00:37:07
about safety that i think the safety excuse for companies makes way more sense for like tesla and john deere because those
00:37:13
are things that not only can like can hurt the the users but like potentially hurt other people
00:37:19
so i could comment about this a little this is a little harder when it comes to an iphone yes there are battery issues obviously
00:37:25
yeah that can cause damage but a lot of iphone macbook i shouldn't just say that
00:37:30
there's plenty of you know computer smartphone general consumer goods they're a lot less dangerous if
00:37:36
something bad would happen yes you can get a battery that explodes but like that's much different than
00:37:41
a tesla like not being able to brake as it's flying down the highway so it's very different i find that
00:37:48
excuse me much harder by these big tech companies to throw out there this is actually one of the things i saw a lot in the youtube comments section still valuable to this day um which was
00:38:00
that basically everything is dangerous that was their argument where they'd say all right tesla won't
00:38:06
let you dig into like you know snipping wires and getting into the batteries of the car because you might hurt yourself
00:38:12
but anyone can change their brakes anyone can do a tire rotation and if you mess that up you will crash and hurt at least
00:38:19
yourself but probably more people so maybe tesla shouldn't have that excuse if you can go into your iphone
00:38:25
you can probably break the battery and that will hurt you a lot like everything is dangerous was their argument so there should not
00:38:32
be any right to repair like division between non-dangerous and dangerous things their argument is everything can hurt somebody probably even printers and you should just not be
00:38:43
able to repair anything or you should be able to repair everything it's it's one or the other i don't i mean it's hard to argue that
00:38:49
that logic but i think generally my assumption would be a lot of these companies use safety
00:38:55
as a nicer way of them saying we don't want the bad pr for something like ability yeah yeah
00:39:01
it's like it's much more image based on them than it is on them caring about if you like this
00:39:07
sounds pretty bad but i'm sure a lot of these companies care more about the article that says someone died because
00:39:12
of their product and less about the actual person yeah it's just it's definitely it's
00:39:17
funny that tesla will let you change your wheels as much as you want totally allowed and you can mess up a couple bolts and
00:39:24
the wheel falls off and like that's definitely going to hurt some people but there's just like a level of risk
00:39:30
that tesla's calculated that they're willing to accept before they will straight up like
00:39:35
blacklist your car and you that you shouldn't touch the stuff on that side of the space i think that's the specific point where it becomes user error versus
00:39:41
manufacturing yeah right like imagine if tesla didn't let you change your wheels that would just be like
00:39:47
literal zero customization by the person like would you could you say they have control over
00:39:53
could they theoretically ever have control over your wheels that's the thing i mean i guess they could physically i'm sure they could find a
00:40:00
way i mean i'm sure they could find a way yeah because there's always tools for you to do whatever like they they're if i want to go in and remove the
00:40:07
computer and put in a different one i physically could do that with enough screws and wires but like
00:40:13
it's not going to work but all they would have to do is find some sort of sensor that doesn't get triggered when you change
00:40:18
the wheel and then bricks the car yeah i mean potentially potentially i'm just saying
00:40:24
wheels are like a pretty standard thing i think we've all come to the the understanding that wheels at at
00:40:30
least at this point we don't know in the future are something that users change although they're low risk
00:40:35
they're very low risk i change them all the time with a low percent of failure and that's good yeah so like a certain number of things
00:40:41
people don't change all the time with that low of a risk and that's where they yeah change your computer out in your
00:40:47
tesla yeah all right well i want to talk about some of the like final like the conclusion
00:40:52
type stuff that's actually happening around write to repair so probably the number one thing that's come up especially in
00:40:57
youtube comments sections and it came up in our research but it didn't make it into the 20 minute video is the right to repair or the
00:41:04
repairability scores that we're starting to see and i think there's specifically
00:41:09
ratings given to products in correct me if i'm wrong is it france that has stickers on boxes now can you
00:41:15
explain what's happening there yeah so i talked to taylor from ifixit and he brought this up and then also when i was
00:41:20
talking to fairphone they also brought this up but basically i'm not sure if you know about france's
00:41:27
new repair scoring system that they just implemented so in france they just came out with a
00:41:34
whole repair ability scoring system that manufacturers are required to score their own product based on the availability of parts how hard the thing is to disassemble and
00:41:47
so france legally obligates every company within certain categories to do uh this to assign this repair score right now this is only in france um but it's kind of populating
00:41:58
throughout the eu slowly and the eu actually seems a lot more willing to put these kind of legislation
00:42:04
pieces into place this is something we talked about the very end of our video right it was like what are the next steps legislation has
00:42:11
got to be the next thing i know in the states it's much more like per uh state actually
00:42:17
uh in in the eu we have this new grim deal from i think it's already one year and a half
00:42:22
ago and there's this uh circular economy package that is being put into place so i think steps are being done really
00:42:30
uh really fast here when it comes to legislation but also um yeah let's say putting pushing a little bit the the the brands
00:42:41
to have that responsibility into the market but in france they actually have these repairability scores
00:42:47
that have to go on certain electronics so right now it's not on everything it's on like smartphones and laptops and things that
00:42:53
you would think would have potentially some replaceable parts um but effectively
00:42:59
there's it's a score from one to ten even though there's there's like it's there's decimal so it's technically one to a hundred but
00:43:05
you have a very strict list of things like okay how repairable is the screen how repairable is this part how repairable is this part and then right now the manufacturers themselves are the
00:43:18
ones that give themselves a score which doesn't seem great uh he did say that friends tried to make
00:43:23
these as robust as possible so that you couldn't like cheat but you know if something was between a 4.6 and a 4.7
00:43:29
good chance they're going to give it a 4.7 but um turns out this is actually having a
00:43:35
lot of impact on consumers which is not something i wouldn't early but i guess if you think about
00:43:41
like i would like to know how much those like uh warnings on cigarette packages like if you've seen the the cigarette warnings in like australia they're like you are going to die if you smoke these
00:43:53
in big bold letters your lungs will explode this is a picture of it it's a similar thing so like these scores
00:43:58
are not only saying like hey by the way you'll be able to keep this thing longer because you can fix it but also that
00:44:05
it's better for the environment and apparently that's actually having a really big impact on consumers really okay i was gonna ask there's
00:44:10
there's so many i have so many questions about it um okay number one so how do they decide what gets the score and what doesn't because you said there's smartphones and computers and things
00:44:24
that should have replaceable parts but that's been a moving goal over time like today it's easy to
00:44:30
put smartphones and laptops on one side of that line and maybe smaller accessories i'm just
00:44:35
going to say headphones for example on the other side of that line but 40 years ago the line was over here right so i guess the line's here today
00:44:42
but does that law define what gets a score i don't know what's the computer yeah not really sure
00:44:49
about that but um the other is as you said the companies yeah make their own scores how
00:44:56
do you define a five out of ten repair ability is it just for how many parts of the
00:45:02
phone so they have a checklist they have a checklist of like can you replace this part can you
00:45:07
replace this part can you replace this part and that's why it's based on product category right now okay like laptops versus phones versus this
00:45:14
and it's kind of like it's kind of like youtube right like there are so many hours of video uploaded per second that you cannot
00:45:20
physically have enough human beings on the earth to do this it's obviously scaled down for
00:45:25
product launches but there are a lot of products that are being launched all the time yeah you can't have someone
00:45:30
from france that has paid to do this full time because they will never catch up so this makes me think like if i am a
00:45:36
company i am immediately planning on maximizing my score and probably trying to do whatever i can
00:45:42
despite the product's lack of repair ability to maximize my score yeah i'm trying to think because like in a uh
00:45:49
in the epa rating for how many miles per gallon your car gets there's a standard test and you you run through the test and companies
00:45:55
have tried to cheat this test but yeah you eventually land on a standardized score i'm wondering
00:46:01
if there's going to be parts that are technically replaceable but that there are no available replacements for it
00:46:07
like where you'll technically be able to say yes you can do you can replace the charge port with three easy screws but we won't sell you
00:46:14
that yeah like they'll get a high repairability score despite not really you know making a better product
00:46:20
for right to repair you know what's funny is when i asked i was fair phone about this and they said that most companies in like europe are like
00:46:28
happy to sell you the the parts like he he he was actually kind of surprised or i mean he knows about apple obviously but when i asked him that i was like so theoretically because i asked him do
00:46:39
you guys have like repair centers for people that don't want to repair their phones even though it's fairly easy with fairphone
00:46:44
it's like yeah we have one repair center in uh in france and i was like okay well like what about
00:46:50
third parties you know do they have access to these parts and he was like well we're a small company we only have
00:46:56
200 000 customers right now but yeah why not in the end then a fair phone will be repaired faster and a customer will be happy again so
00:47:07
why not i mean if we scaled up over the size of apple we'd happily give every part we have available to a
00:47:14
third party because that just means more people using our phones like he seems like
00:47:19
perplexed that i was asking this question i i love that philosophy i don't think it scales
00:47:25
yeah like if you are apple easy to say at least when you're small-scale yeah because when you get to these
00:47:30
bigger companies who are rightfully arguably anti-competitive or they are in ruthless competition where if they do make parts available and they do have to deal with more reliability and more headlines that's
00:47:43
worse for them yeah so they have more incentive to not allow that sort of stuff to happen and just just send us back your phone we'll fix
00:47:49
it for you for 150 bucks like that's what the bigger more competitive companies are going to do so yeah i guess i'm not surprised that a
00:47:55
company like fairphone or at least position like fairphone is perfectly happy to sell you parts and be a an advocate for right to repair but
00:48:02
i'm so curious about those stickers and like how many companies are specifically going to try to maximize their score
00:48:08
while not actually doing anything good for right trippy yeah i think i think everyone is obviously always trying to
00:48:14
optimize their score but it did i did get a general sense that in the eu it is at least more of a consideration than it is here and i think that is backed up by the fact that
00:48:26
legislation passes more easily whether or not we like it i think the legislation that passes
00:48:32
is kind of like a distilled sense of what the people in that area care about and obviously people here they care about the environment they
00:48:43
care about right to repair but they're not like allowed about it you know and in the eu people are louder
00:48:49
about it and that's why they only cell phones in the eu right now so on the score
00:48:54
you're saying there's like a checklist and it's based on if you can repair it does it have anything to do with who can
00:48:59
repair it that's in that would be something i'd have to look up because i'll tell you that that like the first thing i can think of
00:49:05
is yeah apple can maximize their score they can repair everything you just have to do it through them
00:49:11
and whether that is going to delete everything on your storage in the process or louis has talked about
00:49:18
and i i don't remember the exact specifics but there's certain components in a macbook where if apple were to try and replace that they
00:49:25
would say they can't recover anything from your hard drive where he has ways where or at least he digs a
00:49:31
little deeper and can find different ways that might actually be able to save you like all the information you had which
00:49:36
is super super important to a lot of people so the the score sounds fantastic i do agree
00:49:42
with you that i'm sure outside of the us i bet people care about that score a little much i would
00:49:47
i would like to see if anyone gave it but it's also a better gold on the front of the packaging i think that actually does make a big difference
00:49:54
i i would love to see that might be the most important part of the legislation like yeah if everyone's required to give
00:50:00
a mile per gallon but then nobody has to tell you what it is versus it's in this sticker on the
00:50:06
window like that number is going to mean something so you might not care at all about repairability but
00:50:11
when you get to the store and you you know this new legislation passes and suddenly there's two phones next to each other one of them says
00:50:17
three out of ten one of them says eight out of ten maybe you are swayed a little bit yeah a little bit and this
00:50:22
almost comes out sorry well let me talk one second yeah this almost comes back to we had this conversation before about
00:50:27
like reviews and like how people like micro differences and reviews on amazon something's a 4.7 something's a 4.6 always gonna go with that 4.7 like it's
00:50:38
it's the things that are in the consumer peripherals that has a big influence on what they buy
00:50:43
i think what i would specifically be interested in though is apple obviously sells their phones in
00:50:49
their own stores somebody who's not us we would all kind of understand what a repairability score is most people would not they would immediately ask a question and now who's
00:50:59
the person they're asking the question to the apple employee that's inside the apple store how is that going
00:51:04
so what about the verizon store you know if the iphone has a three you're assuming the verizon store actually has any customer support
00:51:11
at all oh sorry bad joke in the us people buy their phones no no yeah yeah exactly so i'm thinking i'm just saying
00:51:18
if they're actually helpful but like if you if you're just looking at the box or looking at the sticker
00:51:23
which i think it's a nice like understandable logo it's an out of 10 rating clearly that's cool
00:51:29
but yeah like what do you think if they saw a lower rating and especially i guess a difference
00:51:36
and to throw another wrench in it no pun intended there's uh there's gonna be like apple has like their name
00:51:42
recognition and if apple ships their phones out there and they get it one out of ten i think people care less about their reparability score because they know the good phone has a 1
00:51:54
out of 10 so it must not mean much does that make sense i i kind of disagree with that really yeah i think that i mean i think people
00:52:00
buy iphones because they've always bought iphones right i've talked to people who had an lg phone and i was like oh wow like you know i don't see a lot of people
00:52:06
using lg phones they just say i've used lg phones since the flip phones and so like people stick with what they know
00:52:12
but i do think that like putting this information in their face when directly compared against something right next to it does have an impact on people and like it's very hard to sway people
00:52:24
off of platforms and i think a lot of people will just stay on the iphone even if it has a one out of ten and the fair phones right
00:52:30
next to it with a nine out of 10. yeah but i think there will be a sizable amount of people who would at least
00:52:35
think about it yeah i think there's there are people i guess there's like two types of shoppers there's shoppers that go into
00:52:42
the store knowing what they want ah my iphone's getting kind of old part of it's broken i'm going to the store to get the new
00:52:48
iphone tell me where the store is son i'm going to get a new iphone from the verizon store and they walk in and they're like which
00:52:54
one's the new one i'll buy it and it has a one out of 10 and they go oh okay oh well i'm really getting one
00:53:00
out of ten i really think that would make that an impact that's one type of person okay okay the other type of person is going in
00:53:05
ready to cross shop and they're gonna go i would like a big screen phone i don't know which one yet but i would like a big screen phone and
00:53:11
they walk in and there's three or four big screen phones and they might ask a question or two and they might shop around and pick two of them up
00:53:16
and one of them has a higher score than the other that person's probably going to think about that score a little more but i think there's a lot of people who
00:53:22
you say buy lg lg lg lg because they're familiar and even if they recognize something's not that great about it at least they
00:53:28
know lg stuff and there's a lot of iphone users who are just on that track and they just know their their airpods are going to work
00:53:35
and then the mac is going to work with it and they're just going to get an iphone and that's what they're here for and oh it's got a 1 out of 10. this
00:53:40
other phone's got a 10 out of 10 but it doesn't work with my airpods i don't really care so i think those people will see the scores and go i guess one out of 10 is
00:53:48
not so bad because the iphone just works with all my stuff already so i'm curious what type of effect those stickers
00:53:53
may or may not have on those groups of people but that's just a thought like you said i think that it's it's extremely dependent on the type of
00:53:59
customer yeah but but i i still think that it will have an effect on all customers
00:54:05
whether or not it actually changes the customers that just know what they want i don't know but at least they'll think about it for a second it's like when you
00:54:11
watch a documentary it's like you watch that documentary about like how bad mcdonald's is for you
00:54:16
and then everyone's like i'm a vegan now and then the next day they're eating mcdonald's there's this is one more really good
00:54:22
lewis rossman point which is i don't think most people know it's an issue until there it's
00:54:28
you know long after they bought it and that's part of it so i think they care after they've had the experience so you
00:54:34
know when someone brings me a machine that's like four thousand bucks and i say this would usually be a three hundred dollar repair but the manufacturer
00:54:40
don't doesn't allow me to get this chip so you gotta buy a new one that that sticks with them and then the
00:54:46
next time they'll say i care about this but i don't most people don't care until they're made aware of it as a
00:54:51
problem or just like most problems you know most people don't care until it personally affects them and so if you go your whole life never having to replace
00:54:57
a single part in your car you honestly probably don't care how replay repairable or replaceable the parts are
00:55:03
or tech for that matter or your tractor whatever if it works it works this is probably why john deere has so much leverages because their
00:55:09
tractors are probably really good they're really good if the repair ability thing is such a big problem buy a different tractor would be a
00:55:15
really good answer but john deere stuff is so good and so dominant that people just keep using that stuff but when the day
00:55:21
finally comes where something breaks and you actually do have to repair something you're gonna care a lot more
00:55:27
about right to repair about how repairable the thing is that you bought about the repairability score you
00:55:32
ignored before all that stuff comes right to the top and you you'd be a right to repair advocate
00:55:37
from nothing as soon as something needs to be replaced so it's so funny because when we think about it i think you can
00:55:43
actually make the analogy that john deere is basically the apple of tractors right like they make the one i don't
00:55:49
actually know any other tractor companies when i try to think off the top of my head if someone said name a tractor company i'd say john deere say tonka i
00:55:55
don't even know if they make traction i don't know and so like and i think that's how a lot of consumers feel in the u.s people say
00:56:01
oh give me your iphone but they don't you know nobody knows what oneplus is unless you're like in
00:56:07
the tech community right so it's kind of like yeah and at the same time they make
00:56:12
really good stuff that works with all its parts they have an app on your phone that will tell you like what parts of the tractor are
00:56:19
having issues if you can fix it yourself and all this stuff and it's like very high tech very this
00:56:24
this um but yet they at the end of the day they control the ecosystem and it's really similar in that way yeah
00:56:31
that's that's always uh it always comes back to the illusion of choice yeah it's like listen you don't like the
00:56:38
way we do things buy a different one tesla's like you don't like the way we handle repairs with our electric cars
00:56:43
fine buy a different one yeah guess how much fun you're going to have yeah not as much you don't want to buy a job you don't want to buy
00:56:48
bro buy another tractor what other tracks what other tractor exactly so if you're out here buying
00:56:54
phones and you realize at the end of the day apple has a lot of leverage and a lot of control and people are just here for the iphone anyway
00:57:01
they can this is something i talk about all the time they can use their good product as leverage
00:57:06
for bad behavior and this is just another one of those examples of anti-write to repair is just another bad behavior that people are willing
00:57:12
sometimes to deal with because the iphone is so good to them right i think that's basically it until
00:57:18
it breaks then then we uh revisit the right to repair video that marquez made and angry it's that extreme frustration of
00:57:25
like oh i hate them as a company but oh the product is so good that's what everybody feels about apple and that's pretty much what these
00:57:31
farmers feel about john deere too product is king product is gang well yeah i think that's that's kind of the
00:57:36
moral of the story i think honestly if you were to distill pretty much every video i make
00:57:43
into like one sentence it would be like how good the product is is the only thing that matters and when we talk about right to repair the only reason it's an issue is because
00:57:53
people still keep wanting to buy these things despite their poor repairability scores and there's going to be
00:57:58
little features that are bad in otherwise great products and people are still going to want to buy the otherwise great product
00:58:05
there's always going to be stuff that comes up to make you question the overall quality of
00:58:10
a usually pretty great product and how important each of these factors is to you is going to determine how important you know the overall product experience is to you but
00:58:21
generally typically product is king and if you make a good product everything else comes after that
00:58:27
you know at the end of the day we have to worry about the limited resources that we have
00:58:32
so it's a question of safety people's lives are not replaceable people's limbs are not replaceable yet so
00:58:43
it's a question of safety and humanity at the end of the day it's more ethics than it is legality and
00:58:48
we need to worry about holding you know people above above money and that's that's just
00:58:55
that's that will always be the answer to every question yeah yeah and people can't really question that either right
00:59:01
yeah well that's been i i feel like we've talked our faces off again pretty good for uh waveform but we'll be
00:59:08
back next week with a a more uh regularly structured episode of current events let us know what you think something
00:59:13
crazy comes out i mean there's always a chance but uh there's there's plenty of videos planned on all the channels so let us
00:59:19
know what you think of this type of this this style table yeah round table of format if you will um there's always room to edit and improve but you can discuss it on the new discord channel
00:59:30
you can discuss it on discord we are on youtube so you can leave it in the comments section you can tweet at
00:59:36
us now we're all so many platforms this is great maybe the best platform win uh all right that's been it talk to you
00:59:42
guys later peace
