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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer welcome everybody to episode 63
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer today on the episode we
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have have an interesting gentleman his
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name is Carl Jensen some people call him
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Mr
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1500 Carl for a long time and and still
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does write a blog called 1500 days to
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Freedom he was one of the original and
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big Financial Independence bloggers and
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his blog title 1500 days to Freedom
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describes his journey over a five or so
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year timeline from when he made up his
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mind that he wanted to Achieve Financial
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Independence until when he eventually
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did it but more recently Carl got a lot
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of press a lot of interesting press and
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I shouldn't say it wasn't Carl alone it
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was also Carl's wife Mindy Mindy is one
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of the co-hosts of the Bigger Pockets
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money podcast and Mindy was kind enough
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to invite me on last year we'll throw
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that link down in the show notes it's
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one of the biggest personal finance
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podcasts out there but back to the point
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of today's episode Carl and Mindy they
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recently appeared in an interview with
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RIT seti if you don't know RIT he wrote
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I will teach you to be rich he is
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probably top five top 10 personal
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finance creators and influencers in the
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world and he interviewed Carl and Mindy
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in a very public way about their money
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scenario it's a very intriguing
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interview and and as you listen to Carl
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and I talk today you might be inspired
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to go listen to that original interview
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yourselves so we'll make sure we throw
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that link down in the show notes but
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their conversation the conversation
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between RIT and Carl and Carl's wife
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Mindy it inspired articles in Fortune
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Magazine it inspired articles in Yahoo
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finance and Carl reached out to me
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afterwards and and we were kind of
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talking back and forth and I I invited
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him on the podcast and he says you know
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Jesse actually I have a pretty
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interesting topic in mind I want to dive
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deeper into some of the things that
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remit didn't end up publishing so that's
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what we're going to do in today's
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episode we're going to dive into some of
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the backstory some of the interesting
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ways in which Carl's childhood both
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personally and financially have rippled
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into the future to affect his Current
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financial life and I think there's some
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interesting lessons that we can all take
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away from Carl's example but before we
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get to Carl let's discuss some other
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interesting topics in regards to kind of
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family circumstances and personal
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finance a study that came out in 2019 by
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Harris poll in TD Merit trade it showed
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that the most significant influence on
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the way Millennials handle their
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finances is the way their parents
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handled their money followed up closely
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by the financial state of the household
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when they grew up this is a conclusion
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that at least in my mind promotes
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teaching financial literacy to children
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but the the tacit implication in the
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article is that there's a positive
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correlation between our childhood
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exposure and how we act as adults the
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way that growing children view finances
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becomes their their normal and that
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normal is what they will tend to revert
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to as adults in other words Frugal
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parents tend to lead to more frugal
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children households that save tend to
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lead children who save households in
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debt they tend to lead to children who
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take on debt and households that
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scramble to pay the bills tend to lead
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to children who scramble to pay the
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bills etc etc ET Etc all the way down
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the line now I'm sure there are plenty
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of people out there who experience the
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opposite of this they experience some
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sort of negative correlation it's
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something that I've heard before someone
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will come out and say well actually my
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parents were terrible with money and now
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I'm going to learn my lesson from them
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and I'm going to choose to be good with
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my money that's wonderful I I hope
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people choose that path but this poll
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this TD am Merit trade and Harris poll
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suggests that that's actually an
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uncommon result so what does that mean
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for us moving forward I see two big
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takeaways the first takeaway is that we
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should learn from others it's how we're
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wired as humans and the second is that
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we should set a good example for others
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because they will benefit from our good
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example
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teach your children
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well their father's
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H humans we are curious Learners we seek
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patterns we seek reason we model our own
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actions on what we see around us so with
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that in mind think about the people in
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your life think about some of the
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financial decisions you see them make
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and if you're comfortable enough ask
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them some questions when did they start
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thinking about retirement how do they
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handle the finances inside of their
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marriage what purchases have they loved
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or what purchases have they regretted
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the more you learn about other people
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the more information you will have to
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make your own decisions in your life
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some of the biggest decisions I've made
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in the past few years have been direct
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result of knowledge that I've learned
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from others for example how do I feel
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comfortable buying my house rather than
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continuing to rent why do I have
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multiple retirement accounts right why
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do I have a 401k and a Roth IRA and an
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HSA and how do I divide up the money
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that goes into those three different
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accounts why did I open a high yield
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savings account with Ali bank and
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another high yield savings account with
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flourish cash all of these decisions
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were based on ideas that I learned from
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others a great example the bogleheads
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guide to investing a wonderful book it
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taught me multiple investing ideas that
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I immediately put into practice after
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realizing this is going back many years
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that I was only getting a0 2% interest
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rate on my long-term banking my
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long-term savings I asked a family
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member where he kept his savings the
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next week I had opened my Ali bank
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account which at that time was paying
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2.2% it was an 11 times increase in my
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monthly interest that I got for my
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savings I can comfortably admit that
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everything I know I learned from others
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and you're probably the same from your
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parents to your teachers to your friends
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everything you learn you've learned from
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someone else so it seems to me that we
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can also choose to be examples for
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others maybe it's your children your
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present children or your future children
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maybe it's a friend a sibling a partner
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someone in your life good habits rub off
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on other people my wife for example has
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started me to get into a habit of making
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my bed now I know I'm a 33-year-old man
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and I don't always make my bed honestly
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going back to Childhood I never quite
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understood why making the bed is so
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necessary like what's the big deal but I
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do have to agree with her a made bed it
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does look better and it's nice to climb
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into at night it's a good habit it's a
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good habit fair enough so much in the
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same light as my wife teaching me to
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make the bed we all have the potential
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to spread good financial habits to those
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close to us in our lives but unlike the
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maid bed which subjectively you could
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say isn't that big of a deal financial
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habits they are a big deal they
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significantly impact Our Lives setting a
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good example for another can create a
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huge net positive in that person's life
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and then across enough people it creates
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a huge net positive for society when you
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think of personal finance celebrities
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even ones who maybe you don't own always
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agree with think of someone like Dave
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Ramsey well he's influenced hundreds of
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thousands of people into better
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financial habits especially on the
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budgeting side and the savings side and
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the paying off debt his investment
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advice has been put down enough we all
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kind of know that it's got its faults
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but he has helped hundreds of thousands
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of people get out of debt stay out of
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debt do things like that that's amazing
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that's an amazing influence and amazing
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ability to teach people that he's had
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now we won't all achieve that same level
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of reach or the level of celebrity that
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someone like Dave Ramsey has but we can
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certainly reach our own circle of family
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and friends it's a worthwhile Pursuit
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and it's certainly the main reason why I
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continue to write on the best interest
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and continue to publish the best
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interest podcast now changing gears a
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little bit closer to Carl and Mindy's
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story and today's conversation let's
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talk about the two roads to financial
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Independence two roads diverged in a
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word and I I took the One Less Traveled
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by and that has made all the
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difference now some of you will
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recognize that poem that was just read
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that is Robert Frost's famous poem The
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Road Not Taken now especially the last
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few lines of that poem that you just
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heard that's the the most famous part of
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the poem and most people interpret that
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poem and those lines as as if to say
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Frost's Choice it made all the
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difference in a good way it was a good
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difference that it made robbert Frost is
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telling us to to break the mold to be
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different to create an extraordinary
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life because that's inherently a good
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thing however if you read the whole poem
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you'll notice that Frost makes no such
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claim The Road Less Traveled it's
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neither good nor bad Frost is not
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passing any sort of judgment on the path
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that one takes in instead Frost's point
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is that the decisions that we make in
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life just like a fork in the road they
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steer you in a direction that cannot be
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undone the other way of thinking about
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it is the statement that there are no
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counterfactuals once you take the left
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Road you cannot take the right Road
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anymore you've made your decision and
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because of that even a tiny decision in
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life can make all the difference perhaps
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in a good way perhaps in a bad way one
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road it leads to another road and then
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to another road and then to another road
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now Robert Frost would never again find
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himself at the particular intersection
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that he was writing about his choice
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left or right it led to another future
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Choice and then another future choice
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and another future choice but those
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choices would never lead him back to
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where he stood at that moment to that
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particular decision yet knowing her way
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leads on the way I doubt it if I should
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ever come back in the long run a simple
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fork in the road it can fundamentally
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change your life this idea is chaos
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theory it's nonlinear it's just like the
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apocryphal idea that a butterfly's
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flight in South America it can change
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the direction of a major hurricane over
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the Atlantic small changes in input can
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cause massive shifts in output now in
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this case a small change in the path you
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take and a particular Trail in the woods
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that might cause some sort of
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fundamental shift in your life time only
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moves in One Direction we can't say
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things like well if I'd done this
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instead of that then I'd be here instead
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of there you you can pretend like you
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know what would have happened but you
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can't be certain nevertheless we dwell
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on opportunities misss you know if I had
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gone to that party in college I probably
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would be married to Margo Robbie right
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now you just can't say that you you
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can't know that to be true but we don't
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even really begin to think about
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disasters that we've averted I think
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that's something that more and more
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people ought to be thinking about if I
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had gone to that party maybe a
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distracted driver would have T-boned my
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car at the stoplight and broken my leg I
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mean just think about it I bet that
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fewer than 1% of people out there have
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actually had thoughts like this before
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we've all had accidents happen to us and
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we think about the bad luck that fell
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upon us and we'd say man if I was if I
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was 5 seconds later or 5 Seconds earlier
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this accident would have been completely
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avoided but because of my timing I got
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screwed
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we never think about the fact that
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sometimes we cruise to work perfectly
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safe and sound and we aren't even aware
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of the fact that if we had been 30
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seconds later coming out of the door
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that morning some random driver would
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have T-boned us going through a red
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light instead we passed through the
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green light 30 seconds before that other
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guy ran the red light safely luckily 30
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seconds later and we never thought about
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it we never met that person but those
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things have happened in life we're just
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blissfully unaware of them so think
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about it when was the last time you
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considered that a few mundane choices in
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your past have probably saved your life
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by avoiding a fatal accident you might
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scoff it's certainly a train of thought
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Less Traveled than be one
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traveler long I stood looked down one as
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far as I
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could to where it bent in the
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undergrowth
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then took the other as just as Fair okay
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so now that's the first path of this
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train of thought let's go to a second
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path of today's thought the Fire or the
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financial Independence and retiring
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early movement strikes me as some sort
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of frosti and bargain now the basics of
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fire are pretty straightforward if you
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earn more and you spend less you can
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become financially independent no longer
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tied to for example your employer
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mandates and then you can retire much
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earlier than traditional Western
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retirement dates fire folks they
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generally take Frost's path they take
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the path lest traveled they isue the
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common 9 to-5 for 40 years style of
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career by striving for higher incomes
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more investing and less spending that
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combination it makes all the difference
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for them but just like those who misread
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Frost's poem the fire movement
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occasionally conflates different with
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better it makes all the difference
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to take the fire path but is it always
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better those two are not the same thing
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and and below here are five headlines
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from the financial Independence
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subreddit forum and I want to ask you
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can you spot the Common Thread amongst
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these five headlines number one I
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retired early at 36 it's been 2 years
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and I'm feeling lost number two your
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fire Obsession may be a symptom of
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stress number three I fired at 30 and
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now I'm lost depressed and don't know
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what to do number four living in the
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future or why Fire won't make you happy
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and number five is the pursuit of fire
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just a temporary distraction from
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happiness now of course I cherry-picked
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these headlines there are also many
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stories of terrific Financial
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Independence success and The Road Less
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Traveled as we talked about before it
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can make all the difference in both
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directions good and bad fire is a Road
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Less Traveled but it's not necessarily a
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better Road my personal story is another
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example fire was a big part probably the
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biggest part of my initial interest in
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personal finance and investing that
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interest led to the creation of the best
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interest this podcast and the blog that
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you're listening to right now and and
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that's huge in my life and and it's a
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small part of your life so thank you to
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the fire movement and I still plan on
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getting financially independent we'll
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talk about that in a a second I was full
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steam ahead on the fire path in my old
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engineering career I was on basically as
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fast a path to fire as I could muster I
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was eating cheaply I was doing coffee at
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home and brown bag lunches I was saving
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every dollar I could but just like the
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headlines that I read you before
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something in my life wasn't quite right
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I was asking myself I'm on a I'm on a
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better path right now right like that
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that's that's what I'm doing fire must
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be a better path but if it's a better
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path why doesn't it exact feel better
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for years I couldn't really put my
00:16:31
finger on the problem now coincidentally
00:16:34
the work I'm doing here on the best
00:16:35
interest it helped me discovered my
00:16:37
issue simply put I didn't enjoy the
00:16:40
day-to-day work of my former engineering
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career rather than running towards early
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retirement I was using fire to run away
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from an unfulfilling job the Mind Rebels
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I discovered when you force it to be
00:16:53
passionate about
00:16:55
escapism but I did love the work of
00:16:57
writing of podcasting helping my readers
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and listeners achieve their financial
00:17:01
goals I wasn't looking to escape from
00:17:05
that part of my life I wanted more time
00:17:07
if anything more writing time more
00:17:09
helping time more podcasting time to
00:17:11
talk to you guys and now that I've been
00:17:13
working for what a year and a half 20
00:17:15
months full-time in wealth management
00:17:17
I'm no longer focused on fire sure
00:17:20
Financial Independence might come but I
00:17:22
love what I do I'm not looking to retire
00:17:24
early so yes I'm still maintaining a
00:17:27
budget I'm still investing money wisely
00:17:29
I'm still following those personal
00:17:31
finance principles but I've separated
00:17:33
the FI from the re Financial
00:17:36
Independence is something that I think
00:17:38
we all should strive for but early
00:17:41
retirement I'm certainly no longer
00:17:43
racing toward it instead I'm on the slow
00:17:46
fi path right now I'm saving a little
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bit less and I'm spending a little bit
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more I'm enjoying the present rather
00:17:53
than just wishing it away rather than
00:17:55
straining towards this supposedly better
00:17:57
future and that makes me an outlier
00:18:00
compared to other Finance bloggers that
00:18:02
I read or some of my fire heroes and
00:18:04
spreadsheet nerds I'm on the road less
00:18:06
taken but for me it's making all the
00:18:10
difference here's a quick ad and then
00:18:12
we'll get back to the show serious
00:18:14
question why do podcasters constantly
00:18:16
ask for ratings and reviews yes they do
00:18:19
help highlight our shows to new
00:18:21
listeners they help strangers find us on
00:18:23
Apple podcast and Spotify it's totally
00:18:25
true and a good reason to ask for
00:18:27
ratings and reviews but
00:18:28
I have something more important at least
00:18:30
more important to me I want to know if
00:18:33
you like this stuff I want to know if
00:18:35
you like my podcast episodes my
00:18:36
monologues my guests the information I
00:18:38
share with you and the stories I tell I
00:18:40
want to improve and make your listening
00:18:42
more enjoyable in the process so yeah I
00:18:45
would love to read your reviews and sure
00:18:47
if you throw a rating in there too
00:18:49
that's great if you like what I'm doing
00:18:51
please share it with me it's such a
00:18:53
great feeling to read your feedback I'd
00:18:55
love to read your review or see a rating
00:18:58
on Apple podcast or Spotify thank you
00:19:01
all right Carl Jensen is now gonna hop
00:19:03
on the podcast with me as I mentioned
00:19:05
before I first crossed paths with Carl
00:19:08
via his blog 1500 days to Freedom he
00:19:11
started the blog in 2013 to Chronicle
00:19:13
his journey to financial Independence
00:19:15
sharing the wins and losses along the
00:19:17
way I then wrote a guest post and an
00:19:20
interview for Carl published on 1500
00:19:22
days that was in September 2020 exactly
00:19:25
one year later I got to meet Carl in
00:19:27
person in Austin Texas at fincon I also
00:19:30
met a gentleman named Doug cunnington
00:19:32
there Carl and Doug are co-hosts of the
00:19:34
highly acclaimed Mile High fi podcast
00:19:38
then last September I appeared on Bigger
00:19:41
Pockets money hosted by Mindy Jensen who
00:19:43
I mentioned before and her guest host on
00:19:46
that particular day was none other than
00:19:48
her husband Carl Carl and Mindy they're
00:19:50
a power couple in the financial
00:19:52
independence movement and they recently
00:19:53
appeared on an episode of RIT sa's
00:19:55
podcast I will teach you to be rich and
00:19:58
that brings us to today Carl and Mindy's
00:20:01
episode with RIT it made headlines all
00:20:03
over on Yahoo Fortune they wrote
00:20:05
articles about it tens of thousands of
00:20:07
people listen to it but most of the
00:20:09
headlines missed some important Nuance
00:20:12
an example of the headlines quote a
00:20:14
couple who retired early with $4.3
00:20:16
million say the fire lifestyle is
00:20:19
wearing thin we don't want to just keep
00:20:21
throwing money on the pile and keep
00:20:23
being cheap end quote so yes that is
00:20:27
part of the conversation they had and
00:20:29
remit plays the role of financial
00:20:31
therapist Carl and Mindy they went to
00:20:33
remit and they said hey we'd love to
00:20:35
hear your thoughts on our life situation
00:20:36
we're in a great place financially but
00:20:38
we feel some anxiety and some hesitation
00:20:40
over actually spending our hard-earned
00:20:43
money the full podcast link is down in
00:20:46
the show notes go ahead and listen to it
00:20:48
I think it might be valuable and I think
00:20:50
especially as you listen to Carl and I
00:20:52
talk today you might be inspired to go
00:20:54
back and listen to the original podcast
00:20:56
episode but as I alluded to way back at
00:20:59
the beginning there are some things some
00:21:01
important aspects that remit skipped
00:21:04
over or ended up editing out that Carl
00:21:06
thought were important to talk about so
00:21:08
let's bring Carl on the Pod to chat a
00:21:11
bit about his conversation with RIT and
00:21:14
to dive deeper into some of the Nuance
00:21:18
[Music]
00:21:25
aspects all right Carl wel welcome to
00:21:28
the best interest podcast and I was
00:21:30
thinking we could start off with a quick
00:21:32
little game of Peaks and valleys maybe
00:21:35
in honor of you out there in the in the
00:21:36
Mountain West so going back to your
00:21:39
conversation with RIT what were some of
00:21:41
the highlights of the conversation and
00:21:43
maybe what were some of the the the the
00:21:45
low points the pain points the less than
00:21:47
ideal moments from from your point of
00:21:50
view wow wa a start big nothing like
00:21:53
how's your day going or anything like
00:21:55
that I would say and
00:21:58
I'll qualify this in a second but I
00:22:00
think the whole conversation was pretty
00:22:02
much a low point and very difficult yeah
00:22:05
but but it was really good I'm not
00:22:07
saying that in a negative way so when we
00:22:09
approached ramit Mindy had already
00:22:11
talked to him she had interviewed him a
00:22:13
couple times on the Bigger Pockets
00:22:15
podcast so I thought hey this is going
00:22:17
to be easy it'll be like talking to a
00:22:19
friend he'll go easy on us if you heard
00:22:22
it that's not how it turned out he was
00:22:24
like a therapist he would ask a
00:22:26
difficult question and then stare at us
00:22:28
for as long as it took for us to open
00:22:29
our mouths but I'm trying to think of
00:22:32
what was specifically great
00:22:35
or maybe a low point of the whole thing
00:22:38
I guess the the low point is
00:22:42
juicier yeah so now I feel like I'm
00:22:44
talking to REM again because I'm trying
00:22:46
to uh it's a difficult question I can
00:22:49
certainly I can certainly I mean I'm
00:22:51
just curious I mean were any of the
00:22:52
questions was it the overly personal
00:22:56
nature was it you know kind of asking
00:22:57
you to to really dig down deep into
00:23:00
yourself and and to expose these
00:23:02
personal stories was it more I mean r
00:23:06
has an interesting style as you've
00:23:07
alluded to he doesn't really pull
00:23:09
punches I mean was any of it just like
00:23:11
kind of like in your face like whoa that
00:23:13
that is a pretty intense question for
00:23:15
this kind of conversation I mean what
00:23:17
any thoughts along those lines yeah he
00:23:19
did say in the middle of it or towards
00:23:21
the end and I'll I'll say before I I
00:23:24
State this like the conversation was
00:23:26
almost three and half hours long and I
00:23:28
think the edited version was under an
00:23:30
hour and a half but I know this part
00:23:32
made it I haven't listened to it but at
00:23:34
one point he's like I don't think you
00:23:35
two want to change I'm like no we
00:23:37
actually do I realize we've probably
00:23:40
been defending ourselves the whole time
00:23:41
so maybe it sounds like we don't want
00:23:43
to we do want to change and that's why
00:23:46
we volunteered and even requested to
00:23:48
come on here in the first place I guess
00:23:52
the difficult thing and maybe the main
00:23:54
realization I had was I'm an Optimizer
00:23:56
and you can definitely take it too far
00:24:00
the thing about financial Independence
00:24:02
is the qualities that will make you
00:24:03
financially independent aren't
00:24:05
necessarily the qualities that are going
00:24:07
to lead to a happy life and they're they
00:24:10
might not serve you after you've made it
00:24:14
I've got a lot of thoughts about that
00:24:15
maybe if you have to Pivot once you
00:24:18
become fi you did it wrong in the first
00:24:20
place you should have not optimized so
00:24:23
much but yeah if I had to say one thing
00:24:25
Jesse it was him calling me out on all
00:24:27
my optimization BS can I swear on this I
00:24:31
don't want to swear you're it out
00:24:33
totally swear okay my optimization
00:24:37
one thing you just mentioned
00:24:39
there Carl that anyone who's listened to
00:24:42
the podcast with RIT will remember this
00:24:44
but maybe those who haven't listened to
00:24:46
it aren't aware of it I mean he does
00:24:48
call you out maybe two-thirds of the way
00:24:50
through the episode as published he
00:24:51
calls you and Mindy out and he says
00:24:53
listen guys I don't think you want to
00:24:55
change and I'll I'll just not to defend
00:24:59
you simply because you're here but one
00:25:02
thing that I think got lost in the
00:25:03
shuffle maybe from rit's point of view
00:25:05
was he was asking you lots of questions
00:25:08
about your past how you got here this
00:25:11
financial decisions you've made along
00:25:13
the way Frugal decisions you've made
00:25:14
along the way and I thought you and
00:25:16
Mindy kind of explained oh here's what
00:25:18
we were thinking when we made that
00:25:19
decision here's why we chose to live a
00:25:21
life of frugality in these ways and then
00:25:24
at least from my point of view as a
00:25:25
listener RIT took your stories of kind
00:25:28
of maybe defending your actions or at
00:25:30
the very least explaining your past
00:25:32
actions and then he kind of pivoted that
00:25:34
into a hey I don't think you want to
00:25:36
change which I'm not sure that's how I
00:25:39
would have interpreted your and Mindy's
00:25:41
stories but I am
00:25:43
curious maybe you can dive into in a
00:25:46
couple minutes for our listeners I mean
00:25:49
from your and Mindy's Point what is your
00:25:51
core thesis of maybe how you've looked
00:25:54
at money in the past and at least how
00:25:56
you'd like to change your money Outlook
00:25:58
in the future oh yeah we have to go way
00:26:02
back down memory lane and I don't know
00:26:03
if this came up in the podcast but at
00:26:05
the very end rid looked at me and he's
00:26:07
like you know what I'm like no what's
00:26:09
going on rid he's like I think you need
00:26:10
therapy did that come up in the podcast
00:26:13
I didn't actually I don't think it I
00:26:14
don't think it came up in rit's episode
00:26:16
but I heard in your follow-up episode on
00:26:18
the mile high fi podcast you you
00:26:20
mentioned that yeah so my money
00:26:23
situation and I think the way I am is
00:26:25
yeah I had some trauma in my childhood
00:26:28
my dad I think he was a really good
00:26:30
person at his core but he himself had a
00:26:33
difficult childhood and he struggled
00:26:36
with alcohol and mental disease
00:26:38
specifically
00:26:39
bipolar and yeah there's some really
00:26:42
there were some really tough spots some
00:26:43
some bad memories and I hesitate to say
00:26:46
that my parents weren't good with money
00:26:48
they just didn't have the knowledge like
00:26:50
we do now like they didn't know what an
00:26:52
index fund was and so you group all the
00:26:56
stuff together by D alcohol issues is
00:26:58
bipolar and the lack of money and it led
00:27:00
to some pretty uh difficult times and my
00:27:04
solution to that is I need to I need to
00:27:06
go to school I need to educate myself so
00:27:08
I can get a well-paying job and money
00:27:11
became my security blanket of that way I
00:27:13
thought
00:27:14
money was an escape out of this life I
00:27:17
told myself when I was young I remember
00:27:19
having these difficult conversations
00:27:21
even when I was like eight how my dad
00:27:23
would lose his job and it wasn't
00:27:24
anything to do with his issues he was
00:27:26
just an construction worker and there'd
00:27:30
be high times and low times and then my
00:27:32
family would struggle and yeah the thing
00:27:34
I told myself was I never want to have
00:27:36
these struggles when I'm older I'm GNA
00:27:37
get a good job and when I do finally
00:27:40
have money I'm going to Sock it away so
00:27:42
I think I was I might have been the
00:27:44
first one in my entire family to go to
00:27:46
school there might have been one other
00:27:48
and when I did I I specifically chose a
00:27:50
job that I didn't know if I would like I
00:27:53
chose one because I knew it would pay me
00:27:55
a lot of money which I don't think is a
00:27:57
healthy way to go about it and then it
00:27:59
turned out I did enjoy the job so that
00:28:01
part magically worked out and one of the
00:28:03
best decisions of my life but when I did
00:28:05
get that money I just hoarded it I
00:28:07
sucked it away so one thing that I
00:28:10
always have to remind people is people
00:28:12
will say oh it's so cool how you saved
00:28:14
all that money tell me how you've done
00:28:15
it because our net worth is substantial
00:28:17
I'm like
00:28:18
well I don't think you should admire me
00:28:21
for that it should be quite the opposite
00:28:22
because this was a reaction to a bad
00:28:24
situation and if I was better adjust Ed
00:28:27
I probably wouldn't have had all the
00:28:29
money because it was my security blanket
00:28:31
and it was what I needed to make me feel
00:28:33
good and safe in life Jesse I don't
00:28:37
remember what your original question was
00:28:39
or if if I even answered it no I I I
00:28:41
think you have I think you have and and
00:28:43
I want to pry into that a little bit
00:28:45
more Carl you wrote a blog post after
00:28:48
the publication of the episode and the
00:28:49
blog post is called why RIT and we'll
00:28:52
throw a link in the show notes for
00:28:53
anyone who wants to listen to that but
00:28:54
I'm going to quote you here you said
00:28:57
I've never had a good relationship with
00:28:58
money parts of my childhood were chaotic
00:29:00
money always felt like a security
00:29:02
blanket it's not a resource to be spent
00:29:04
on happiness but one to defend against
00:29:07
problems and so I I want to dive into
00:29:09
that last statement money is not a
00:29:11
resource to be spent on happiness but
00:29:13
one to defend against problems I'm
00:29:16
curious I mean you you mentioned maybe
00:29:18
where some of that comes from in your
00:29:20
childhood thoughts even when you were a
00:29:22
young
00:29:23
boy is that still an active thought in
00:29:25
your mind do you think today or does it
00:29:27
live kind of under the surface or is it
00:29:29
is it a combination of of the of the two
00:29:32
yeah I'm getting over it and that was
00:29:34
probably the main reason I wanted to be
00:29:36
on RIT I'll back up a second some person
00:29:38
who was kind of nasty left a comment
00:29:40
someone else said I try not to read any
00:29:42
comments or any stuff about myself
00:29:44
online but I got sucked into one and
00:29:46
someone's like ah these people are fools
00:29:48
I can't relate to them and my response
00:29:51
was I think you're right I can't really
00:29:53
relate to myself either this feels weird
00:29:56
I feel like I'm here and I've got this
00:29:58
big chunk of money over here on the
00:29:59
other side that I don't know what to do
00:30:02
with or even know how to process because
00:30:04
I accumulated this but I did it for the
00:30:07
wrong reasons you asked me about I
00:30:09
accumulated this to it's not to be spent
00:30:12
it's to right it's not a resource to be
00:30:14
spent on happiness but one to defend
00:30:16
against problems so that you know you're
00:30:18
viewing this this money as essentially
00:30:20
as a wall against some problems as
00:30:24
opposed to maybe something that you can
00:30:25
actually utilize for productive happy
00:30:28
things yeah yeah and money's a safeguard
00:30:30
if you've got a big chunk of money
00:30:32
you're not going to lose your house if
00:30:33
you've got a health issue you can deal
00:30:35
with that it's going to do a lot for you
00:30:39
but the thing is most of those things
00:30:42
are never going to come up and if you
00:30:45
think that's the only use for money I
00:30:47
think you have an unhealthy relationship
00:30:49
with it there there's a Mark Twain quote
00:30:51
I really like but I apparently I don't
00:30:52
like so much that I can't quoted
00:30:54
verbatim but it's it goes something like
00:30:56
I have worried about many things in my
00:30:57
life none of which ever happened or
00:30:59
something like that and I I think that's
00:31:01
the case with me too I accumulated all
00:31:03
this because I was afraid I'd lose my
00:31:05
job and there goes my security and then
00:31:08
all the bad things I had in my head
00:31:09
never showed up so we wanted to go on
00:31:11
REM meet to improve our relationship and
00:31:14
have a better relationship with it in my
00:31:18
mind Carl I feel like that it's possible
00:31:21
to look at money in a very binary black
00:31:24
and white way I'm not saying that this
00:31:26
is the way you were looking at it but it
00:31:27
is very possible to say it's either a
00:31:30
zero or a one it's either to be used for
00:31:33
defense or used for happiness and I know
00:31:36
that from the fire mindset one thing we
00:31:39
worry about is this kind of chronic
00:31:41
overspending or the fact that we won't
00:31:43
have safety nets in place the fact that
00:31:44
we won't be able to retire early we're
00:31:46
going to outspend our 4% Rule and then
00:31:49
we're going to end up at 75 years old
00:31:50
pennes and and in in trouble so I I
00:31:53
understand protecting against that but
00:31:55
I'm just wondering after the episode
00:31:57
with RIT after that conversation are you
00:32:02
and I don't want you to have to speak
00:32:03
for Mindy I'll just ask you like are you
00:32:05
finding yourself kind of moving back
00:32:06
towards maybe the center in between
00:32:09
these two opposing thoughts of using
00:32:11
money as defense versus using it for
00:32:14
some fun productive day-to-day use yeah
00:32:18
oh geez we could talk forever about this
00:32:20
I've oh I've thought about money like
00:32:22
constantly ever since the REM show and
00:32:24
one thing I thought of like as a kid I
00:32:26
always lost after these sports cars I
00:32:28
was a kid who had posters of them on my
00:32:31
walls and I actually did have one had
00:32:32
one I had an Acura NSX for a while which
00:32:34
is a fancy Japanese sports car but then
00:32:38
you get the money and it's kind of
00:32:39
interesting how maybe you don't want
00:32:41
those things anymore it was a lot more
00:32:43
the object was a lot more desirable when
00:32:45
you couldn't have it and once you can
00:32:47
have it it's not as desirable as it
00:32:49
was so yes I have moved to the center
00:32:53
and some very and I've recently bought
00:32:56
some experience experiences with it we
00:32:58
went on a helicopter ride in Hawaii
00:33:00
which set us back about $1,300 this
00:33:02
weekend this past Saturday Taylor Swift
00:33:05
was in Denver and my kid had a ticket to
00:33:07
her show and she could only get one
00:33:08
ticket she was like a verified fan or
00:33:10
something like that and by the time she
00:33:12
got through the queue she could only buy
00:33:14
one ticket and I'm not a huge Taylor
00:33:15
Swift fan I would say I'm a casual fan I
00:33:18
can recognize maybe 10 or 20 of her
00:33:20
songs so anyway I went to the stadium
00:33:22
and dropped her off I walked the two
00:33:24
miles back to our our hotel and like man
00:33:27
I I kind of feel like I'm missing out on
00:33:29
that I'm going to go online and see how
00:33:30
much a ticket cost and I I had been
00:33:32
checking them before and they were super
00:33:34
expensive like $2 to $10,000 and I went
00:33:38
online and because the opening band was
00:33:40
already there I saw I could get a ticket
00:33:42
for a, which is still a lot and
00:33:44
something I probably would have never
00:33:46
ever done before REM I'm like you know
00:33:48
what if I don't go to this I'm going to
00:33:52
regret going so I should just do it so I
00:33:54
did it I paid a th000 bucks for the
00:33:55
ticket hustled my ass back to the show
00:33:57
and got to my seat 10 seconds before she
00:33:59
went on and it was great another thing
00:34:02
we're going to do I was going to rent a
00:34:04
car and I went on turo and I probably
00:34:06
won't ever own a fancy car again but for
00:34:08
just a little bit more instead of 500
00:34:10
for 800 I could have a brand new
00:34:12
Corvette so a fan of Mage and sports
00:34:15
cars I did that and then the other one
00:34:17
we're going to do is we're going to see
00:34:19
you two in Las Vegas you might have
00:34:21
heard about this new spherical theater
00:34:23
thing they've got going yeah that
00:34:25
experience will probably cost us at
00:34:26
least $1,000 so like four experiences
00:34:29
that cost us about $1,000 each so we're
00:34:32
definitely learning to let go but the
00:34:34
other thing I think about this is $1,000
00:34:38
sounds like a lot but it's not going to
00:34:41
break our bank it's nothing compared to
00:34:43
having a huge house or an $800 a month
00:34:46
car payment which I know some people
00:34:48
have these are random things that we'll
00:34:50
spend money on once in a while the main
00:34:52
thought I've come to is I'm really
00:34:54
satisfied with our daily life our daily
00:34:57
life is great we have a nice house our
00:34:58
neighbors are great the cars are fine
00:35:01
although I might get a Tesla at some
00:35:02
point so where can I deploy money for
00:35:05
happiness and that's on these random
00:35:07
maybe once in a while experiences
00:35:09
something I would have not considered
00:35:11
before but why not a thousand bucks
00:35:12
ain't gonna break the bank I oversaved
00:35:15
tremendously so why not go on a
00:35:17
helicopter every once in a while and by
00:35:19
the way that helicopter ride was a first
00:35:21
one I ever went out of my life and it
00:35:23
was kind of terrifying but spectacular I
00:35:25
would do it again in a second
00:35:28
I think when you're telling these
00:35:29
stories Carl one thought I had going
00:35:31
through my head kind of preparing for
00:35:32
this interview is this idea of exposure
00:35:34
therapy where say someone's afraid of
00:35:36
spiders so they they gradually they
00:35:38
choose to interact with a spider from
00:35:40
like 10 feet away there's a spider in
00:35:42
the corner and and it's a little
00:35:43
stressful for them it's a little
00:35:44
anxiety-provoking but eventually their
00:35:47
brain and their body become attuned or
00:35:50
they get used to that and it helps them
00:35:52
get over some of that anxiety I don't
00:35:54
want to play armchair psychologist here
00:35:56
but I'm just curious I me did you feel
00:35:58
any sort of anxiety from these various
00:36:00
expenditures over the past month since
00:36:02
the podcast and and and whether you did
00:36:05
or didn't do you plan on kind of slowly
00:36:08
dialing yourself up to a place of
00:36:12
spending that maybe you and Mindy had in
00:36:14
mind before you sat down with remat some
00:36:17
sort of goal that you had set for
00:36:18
yourself o first of all I really really
00:36:21
like the exposure therapy but first I
00:36:23
want to answer your other question and
00:36:25
then I'll have something to say about
00:36:26
this and I'll say yeah I think every
00:36:28
single time I had a little bit of
00:36:30
anxiety like you put your credit card
00:36:31
number in the computer I'm like ah this
00:36:34
feels a little bit weird about to blow
00:36:36
a$ thousand dollar on three hours with
00:36:38
Taylor Swift or on the
00:36:40
helicopter and then pretty much the
00:36:43
second after I clicked the submit button
00:36:45
I was good with it I'm like oh this
00:36:46
feels really good I'm really happy I did
00:36:49
it and none of those experiences I
00:36:51
regret but I want to talk a little bit
00:36:53
about your exposure
00:36:55
therapy even if I would have regretted
00:36:58
it I think it's worthwhile because you
00:37:00
have to fail sometimes and maybe not all
00:37:03
of these experiences are going to be a
00:37:05
winner like maybe you two will sucker
00:37:07
renting the Corvette won't be all I
00:37:09
thought it would be but I would have had
00:37:13
something more powerful I if I hadn't
00:37:16
done it and that would have been the
00:37:17
regret of not doing it and the learnings
00:37:20
from the experiment like I think it'll
00:37:23
actually be pretty great if I rent the
00:37:24
Corvette and I hate it cuz then I'll
00:37:26
never have the urge to buy another fancy
00:37:30
car again I think as much as I like cars
00:37:32
I think they're kind of silly
00:37:33
expenditures if if you sucks at this
00:37:36
sphere Stadium great I won't ever have
00:37:38
to see him again but I won't regret not
00:37:40
doing it so I think you have to push
00:37:43
yourself out of these Comfort zones and
00:37:46
do things for the heck of it even if you
00:37:48
think it might not be perfect and that
00:37:50
again that's getting away from the
00:37:52
optimization I can't optimize for
00:37:54
happiness with every single experience
00:37:57
but how am I going to know what makes me
00:37:58
happy if I don't do these
00:38:00
experiments I just took a note on that
00:38:03
and the note I took I called it
00:38:04
optimizing experiences I know optimize
00:38:06
is now the O word that that we're not
00:38:08
allowed to quite say it but you could
00:38:10
almost reframe the scenario that you
00:38:12
find yourself in as you know what am I
00:38:15
going to enjoy going to these Elite
00:38:17
Musical shows I'm not really sure but
00:38:20
I'll try Taylor Swift I'll try You2
00:38:22
maybe I'll give it a third shot and if I
00:38:24
look back on those three and say eh that
00:38:26
wasn't quite worth it maybe you now have
00:38:28
your answer whereas taking helicopter
00:38:31
rides or doing other I know you're kind
00:38:33
of a big aeronautical fan engineering
00:38:35
fan you're a big Tesla fan but maybe
00:38:37
things like the Corvette a Tesla a
00:38:39
helicopter ride maybe you'll be three
00:38:41
for three on those were so cool and now
00:38:44
you have more Direction on how to
00:38:46
optimize your future spending yeah I
00:38:48
didn't answer part of your question and
00:38:50
I'll answer that now one of the things
00:38:52
with REM was you should spend money on
00:38:54
things you enjoy so I started thinking
00:38:56
about like what kind of things do I
00:38:58
really enjoy in life and I think
00:38:59
everyone should ask themselves is like
00:39:01
what are just do a whole retrospective
00:39:05
over your whole life and consider what
00:39:07
the happiest moments you ever had in
00:39:09
life and I started thinking about that
00:39:11
and my happiest moments are probably
00:39:13
just simple ones like spending time with
00:39:15
friends and family so another thing I
00:39:17
did is I bought a cruise for my family
00:39:20
and that that sent me back 10,000 so my
00:39:23
mom has always wanted to go on a cruise
00:39:24
to Alaska so I'm going to take my mom
00:39:27
and my two sisters and their Partners on
00:39:29
this cruise to Alaska because it'll be
00:39:32
quality time with family and the other
00:39:34
thing I'm gonna do which will be big and
00:39:36
this might benefit you too Jesse because
00:39:38
I consider you a friend of mine is the
00:39:40
thought I had was I really like all this
00:39:42
time I spent with friends but how could
00:39:44
I possibly make that experience a little
00:39:47
bit better maybe a little bit happier
00:39:49
and the thing I came to is why don't I
00:39:51
rent like a mansion or a castle in a
00:39:54
really cool part of the world and I
00:39:57
think Pete Mr Money mustach originally
00:39:59
had this idea but why don't I do this
00:40:01
and just have an open invitation to all
00:40:03
my friends like the one rule is they
00:40:05
can't give me any money and they have to
00:40:07
get themselves there so I guess two
00:40:08
roles but after that you're just going
00:40:10
to come and hang out it'll be a fun
00:40:12
place there will be stuff to do there it
00:40:14
might be a castle in Scotland or a a
00:40:16
mansion on the beach in Florida if you
00:40:18
have ideas for location I'm still trying
00:40:19
to figure this out but this will
00:40:21
probably be a summer of 2024 thinking
00:40:24
how cool would that be or maybe even
00:40:26
rent like a block get a block of rooms
00:40:27
on a cruise ship and just invite a bunch
00:40:29
of people and that's it just just come
00:40:31
hang out with me for a week or two and
00:40:33
here's the Excel spreadsheet tell me
00:40:34
what times you're going to be there so
00:40:36
we don't over allocate and that'll be it
00:40:39
so that might be the that might be the
00:40:41
Pinnacle of my spending so look for that
00:40:43
in summer of 2024 probably that's
00:40:46
awesome that is awesome and a pattern
00:40:49
I've noticed Carl just in this
00:40:50
conversation with you is that a lot of
00:40:53
these bigger expenditures that you're
00:40:55
talking about things you've now decided
00:40:57
to do over the last couple months they
00:40:59
all involve other people it's probably
00:41:02
something you knew even before going
00:41:03
into the conversation with RIT but it
00:41:06
seems like you get a lot of joy out of
00:41:09
making experiences sure for yourself but
00:41:12
for the other people around you and and
00:41:15
you get some sort of secondhand benefit
00:41:17
of of internal happiness just from
00:41:19
seeing Mindy and your daughters happy in
00:41:22
this trip in Hawaii seeing your your
00:41:24
sisters their spouses your mother
00:41:26
they're happy on this future cruise to
00:41:28
Alaska and and so I mean is that
00:41:30
something that you've actively thought
00:41:31
about is is that nature of your spending
00:41:34
it's something I totally think about
00:41:36
just not for myself I think it's human
00:41:38
nature because I would consider myself a
00:41:40
pretty severe introvert but even me and
00:41:43
most humans even if you consider
00:41:44
yourself that we're tribal animals so if
00:41:46
you think about going to a football game
00:41:50
you're going to watch the football game
00:41:51
but you're probably going to go with
00:41:52
friends and that's what really makes the
00:41:55
experience great you're going to drive
00:41:56
down with him you're going to tailgate
00:41:58
you're going to sit there and give him
00:41:59
high fives when your team
00:42:01
scores and I think that's what most of
00:42:04
life is about it's not so much the
00:42:05
experience it's about sharing these
00:42:07
experiences with friends I even changed
00:42:10
the way I travel after I thought about
00:42:12
this so like for example we went to
00:42:14
Edinburgh which I thought would be great
00:42:16
but the main reason I went there was to
00:42:17
visit the uh mad scientist Brandon who
00:42:20
is a friend of mine and that made the
00:42:21
trip so much better because we got to
00:42:23
see all the stuff but we got to have
00:42:25
drinks and dinner and hang out with
00:42:27
people who we really enjoyed and I'm
00:42:30
trying to think of other examples of of
00:42:32
fun with friends but I think yeah that's
00:42:34
where most of life's great experiences
00:42:37
come from Carl let's take a step back
00:42:40
actually and go back to that that idea
00:42:41
of exposure therapy I wanted to pry into
00:42:43
your brain a little bit more just in
00:42:45
terms of kind of how is that going how
00:42:47
has some of the anxiety of spending felt
00:42:50
and now as you're doing it a bit more
00:42:52
and a bit more and maybe exposing
00:42:54
yourself more in terms of I don't know
00:42:56
some some bigger spending or some more
00:42:59
outof the-box spending compared to what
00:43:00
you used to do how have your feelings
00:43:04
evolved yeah I'm going to back up a
00:43:06
second and say if there's anything you
00:43:08
fear in life you should approach that
00:43:10
thing head on and try to overcome it one
00:43:12
big one for me was public speaking as a
00:43:15
kid I used to have speech impediments I
00:43:16
had years of speech therapy because I
00:43:18
stuttered and I couldn't pronounce words
00:43:19
for some reason I couldn't pronounce any
00:43:21
word that had sh in it so I couldn't say
00:43:23
the word shirt and now I can't say that
00:43:26
so I can swear freely if you see where
00:43:28
I'm going with that and uh but anyway
00:43:31
what I did was I took on public speaking
00:43:33
which scared the out of me see
00:43:34
there's the word I could say it now and
00:43:37
now I'm a much better person it's great
00:43:39
to be able to speak well in public but
00:43:41
what I found is it made me a more
00:43:43
confident better adjusted person I do
00:43:45
better in social
00:43:46
situations so now I'm trying to do a
00:43:49
similar thing with money and how
00:43:51
fortunate am I to be able to say I get
00:43:54
to spend money is an experiment
00:43:56
so it it's difficult like with the
00:43:58
Taylor Swift thing my my first response
00:44:00
to that was oh no there's no way I'm
00:44:02
going to pay this I'm like no nope you
00:44:04
have to catch yourself like this is what
00:44:07
you should do because you don't want to
00:44:09
do it and you should consider how you
00:44:13
felt I need to consider how I felt
00:44:15
buying the ticket and then how I felt
00:44:17
afterwards so I think by modus operan
00:44:20
going forward is whenever there's an
00:44:22
opportunity to spend money on something
00:44:25
fun that'll enhance Our Lives I need to
00:44:27
just pull the triger and do it one
00:44:29
example is and this came out of remet 2
00:44:32
we gave each of our children a trip so
00:44:36
we said hey up to like $5,000 you could
00:44:38
go anywhere and do anything and I think
00:44:41
we actually made the limit 10,000 after
00:44:43
after we're meet so our younger kid is
00:44:46
like yeah I'd love to do all these shows
00:44:47
in New York I'm like okay great we'll do
00:44:49
them and they're not cheap they're more
00:44:51
expensive than I thought they would be
00:44:53
but still cheaper than a for Taylor
00:44:54
Swift tickets
00:44:56
so we're doing that and you had asked me
00:44:58
previously about the RIT show and and
00:45:01
one thing that really stuck out about
00:45:02
this is this came more from Mindy but I
00:45:05
was thinking it when REM had asked us
00:45:07
about the trip to Germany Mindy opened
00:45:09
up with well we had to pay like 6,000
00:45:12
bucks for plane tickets and I was
00:45:13
thinking the same thing and then raid is
00:45:16
like why did you open with that did you
00:45:17
have a good time I'm like yeah it was
00:45:19
great our kid talks about it all the
00:45:21
time he's like why didn't you open up
00:45:23
with that then and he's so damn right
00:45:26
like why aren we prioritizing these
00:45:29
things that we could have these
00:45:30
experiences with our kids our kids are
00:45:32
13 and 16 our time with them is almost
00:45:34
done so why aren't we just if we can to
00:45:38
spend money on some experience that
00:45:40
they're going to remember forever why
00:45:42
aren't we doing that so yeah Jesse
00:45:44
whenever I have an opportunity now I
00:45:46
pull the trigger and spend some money
00:45:48
maybe there's a little bit of
00:45:49
apprehension there maybe I should do
00:45:51
something on the blog or with you like
00:45:53
someone will tell me some really silly
00:45:54
thing to spend money on and I'll see if
00:45:56
I can make myself do it and one other
00:45:59
thing I have to say is this all this
00:46:01
conversation I always feel a little
00:46:03
weird about talking about these things
00:46:05
because they sound kind of selfish but
00:46:06
one thing you can also do which we've
00:46:08
done is give money away too A lot of
00:46:11
people put it in their will but why wait
00:46:13
till you're dead to give all the money
00:46:14
away why not do it when you're alive and
00:46:16
can see your money in action and doing
00:46:18
good things so I don't want to die with
00:46:20
zero like the book but I want to die
00:46:23
with a lot less than I had previously
00:46:25
planned totally true I
00:46:27
mean something I end up talking about a
00:46:30
lot at work or through the blog to
00:46:32
readers is it is that there's a fine
00:46:34
balance there is a balance between
00:46:37
saving for the long run but enjoying the
00:46:40
money while you can while you're young
00:46:42
enough one of my best friends he was the
00:46:44
efficient in my wedding he had a
00:46:46
opportunity around the age 28 he could
00:46:48
either kind of commit to this career
00:46:50
path and he would have had to buy a car
00:46:53
to help with some of the commute to his
00:46:55
job and so he had like $25,000 earmarked
00:46:58
for the car or one thing he'd always
00:47:00
wanted to do was take a serious hiking
00:47:03
journey and so one night he sat down he
00:47:06
did the math and his serious hiking
00:47:08
Journey which was going to last about a
00:47:10
year would have cost him right around
00:47:12
that
00:47:12
$25,000 price tag and so he said I'm
00:47:16
only young once I don't want to look
00:47:18
back at age 50 and and regret not going
00:47:20
on this hike so he did the hike it
00:47:22
really fundamentally changed his life
00:47:24
path and for those wondering he did the
00:47:27
Pacific Crest Trail the T AOA in New
00:47:30
Zealand which is north to south in New
00:47:32
Zealand and the Appalachian Trail all in
00:47:34
13 months it was about 8,000 miles in 13
00:47:37
months he just did it because he said
00:47:40
kind of like you said Carl like you know
00:47:41
I might as well do it while I'm here on
00:47:43
Earth while I'm young enough to do it
00:47:44
young enough to enjoy it to see the
00:47:46
benefits and I think that's an important
00:47:48
money spending mindset heck yeah Jesse
00:47:51
your friend is my hero someone had asked
00:47:54
me at a conference at the campf I went
00:47:56
to recently like what was your biggest
00:47:58
money mistake and I said mine was I have
00:48:00
too much I wish I would have let it go a
00:48:03
little bit earlier your body is decline
00:48:05
after about age 30 like you don't see
00:48:07
any 42y old professional tennis players
00:48:09
or maybe you do but they're ranked like
00:48:11
200 in the world and we might not notice
00:48:13
it because we're not Peak Olympic
00:48:16
athletes or whatever but it's happening
00:48:18
and one day you won't be able to do
00:48:20
these things your window is going to
00:48:22
close and if you don't do it now you
00:48:24
might never be able to do it how about
00:48:26
you Jesse do you struggle with any of
00:48:28
these issues is it okay if I uh ask you
00:48:30
some of these same questions or by all
00:48:33
means by all means I I would say Carl I
00:48:36
struggle I was thinking about this this
00:48:38
morning as I was thinking about how this
00:48:40
conversation would go I have found
00:48:42
myself struggling at times on both sides
00:48:44
of the Ledger and what I mean by that is
00:48:47
there are sometimes where I I should
00:48:49
have spent more on some sort of
00:48:52
experience or I should have what does
00:48:54
RIT even say I think I think it's one of
00:48:55
her's quotes is like spend lavishly on
00:48:58
the things that bring you Joy and cut
00:49:00
mercilessly on the things that don't and
00:49:03
I I've struggled spending lavishly on
00:49:06
the things I really enjoy and then also
00:49:08
sometimes I look back and I realize I
00:49:10
didn't cut mercilessly enough on the
00:49:12
things that didn't bring me joy so yeah
00:49:15
it it is a struggle and even despite
00:49:17
kind of what I know despite reading all
00:49:20
the blogs and listening to the podcasts
00:49:22
and reading the
00:49:23
books that
00:49:26
understanding isn't always enough to
00:49:28
kind of internalize it and turn that
00:49:31
understanding into
00:49:33
practice yes so I have a friend I'd be
00:49:35
curious to know what you think about
00:49:36
this you might have met him his name is
00:49:38
Mark Troutman he has a Blog I think at
00:49:40
marks money mind.com and what he does is
00:49:44
he created this concept of a fun bucket
00:49:46
where he puts like x amount of money in
00:49:48
this bucket and he has to have fun with
00:49:51
that money he has to go on a cruise or a
00:49:52
vacation he cannot like use it to pay
00:49:55
pay a utility bill and I think that's a
00:49:58
great way to maybe Mind Trick yourself
00:50:00
into letting go of money a little bit
00:50:03
more hey I I've got this money it's
00:50:05
compartmentalized I can't use it for
00:50:07
anything else and it's there for
00:50:08
whatever I want to do I might do
00:50:10
something like that in the future just
00:50:12
put a bucket of money in some investment
00:50:14
or some I think he does a high yield
00:50:16
savings account and say you know I've
00:50:18
got like a year or four years or
00:50:20
whatever timeline you want and I need to
00:50:21
spend this money on something fun or at
00:50:23
the end I'll I'll give it away to
00:50:25
worthwhile organization is that what
00:50:27
some of us need to do trick ourselves to
00:50:29
spend our money or give it
00:50:31
away yeah I I could probably benefit
00:50:34
from that and I I think on the budgeting
00:50:36
side I do a reasonable job but yeah I
00:50:39
think one thing one place where maybe I
00:50:40
struggle is that longer term fun
00:50:44
spending like planning that out you know
00:50:46
if I said my wife and I are hoping to go
00:50:48
to Ireland in September and the fact
00:50:51
that we actually haven't planned the
00:50:52
trip or bought plane tickets yet might
00:50:54
be a bit of an issue but I think that
00:50:56
one place where I struggle is that idea
00:50:58
of okay we we've been talking about this
00:50:59
trip for months but it's out in the
00:51:02
future it's going to involve a few
00:51:03
thousand dollar worth of spending and
00:51:05
sometimes I struggle sitting down and
00:51:07
really planning that out and committing
00:51:09
to that spending it might be for
00:51:11
financial reasons it might just be some
00:51:14
sort of mental block when it comes to
00:51:17
planning for today versus planning for a
00:51:20
100 days from now maybe I I struggle in
00:51:22
some way there it's definitely
00:51:24
interesting to kind of learn your own
00:51:26
brain and try to uncover why you're
00:51:28
thinking what you're thinking it it
00:51:30
really is this common thread of this
00:51:31
conversation
00:51:33
today yeah so I'm kind of curious what
00:51:35
could we make you do to go buy the
00:51:37
Ireland SHP because I'm sure it'll be
00:51:39
great I've been through there once it
00:51:40
was it was so beautiful like that whole
00:51:42
part of the world is just fantastic and
00:51:45
you'd have the time of your life I don't
00:51:46
think you would regret a thing and you
00:51:49
you don't have any kids right like no
00:51:51
obligations with that not yet y okay
00:51:54
yeah and once you if I I don't know if
00:51:55
you're planning to have kids I don't
00:51:56
need to pry there or anything like that
00:51:58
but once you do all that stuff becomes
00:52:01
much much more difficult and it's great
00:52:03
but your life will change so yeah you've
00:52:06
got a limited window there Jesse and I I
00:52:08
would I would encourage you to uh do the
00:52:11
same as me become uncomfortable every
00:52:13
once in a while spend a little thanks
00:52:15
Carl I I hope I am I certainly can
00:52:19
relate to what you said earlier about
00:52:21
you know your body starts to get a
00:52:22
little bit more sore and you're breaking
00:52:24
down and and and some things aren't as
00:52:26
easy as they once were I'm I'm 33 but I
00:52:29
already kind of look in the mirror and
00:52:32
think to myself that if I don't actively
00:52:34
try to maintain my strength and
00:52:36
athleticism then then I'm going to fade
00:52:39
into a middle-aged body that I'm not
00:52:41
happy with but similarly I I think to
00:52:43
myself that if I don't take advantage of
00:52:45
this time in some way that I'm going to
00:52:48
look back with some sort of regret in
00:52:50
the future and I I don't really want to
00:52:51
do that so it really is just about
00:52:54
translating that that that knowledge
00:52:56
right it's easy to sit here and think I
00:52:59
should be in better shape it's easier to
00:53:01
think I should be taking advantage of my
00:53:02
time more but then I need to really turn
00:53:04
around and and apply that into practice
00:53:07
and and do the things that I'm thinking
00:53:09
which you know is is a different skill
00:53:10
set yeah and one of the great gifts of
00:53:13
time is getting your ass in shape I'm in
00:53:15
I'm 49 and I'm in better shape now than
00:53:17
I was at 39 which is great and the only
00:53:20
reason I am is because I don't sit
00:53:21
behind a computer for eight hours a day
00:53:23
I can get my ass out I try to watch
00:53:25
25,000 steps a day and oh amazing that
00:53:28
doesn't cost anything except the
00:53:30
opportunity cost of not doing something
00:53:32
to earn money but super worthwhile
00:53:34
there's nothing more worthwhile than
00:53:35
your health totally and that that in
00:53:38
itself is an amazing takeaway I should
00:53:40
probably devote more episodes here to
00:53:41
health recently I'm trying to remember
00:53:44
who I was speaking to I think it was
00:53:46
Nick mauli who you might be familiar
00:53:48
with Nick muli y but we were uh Peter AA
00:53:51
came up in our conversation because Nick
00:53:53
had something very similar to say which
00:53:55
is that really Nick used his statistic
00:53:59
that every hour that you work out
00:54:02
earlier in life correlates roughly to
00:54:04
six to eight hours of extended LIF span
00:54:08
at the end of life now of course it has
00:54:10
its limits because you can't just work
00:54:12
out four hours a day to gain a Day of
00:54:15
Future life otherwise you could work out
00:54:17
four hours a day and live forever right
00:54:19
if you expand that out but but in
00:54:21
essence if you are the kind of person
00:54:23
who works out for an hour a day just
00:54:25
you're dedicated you are absolutely
00:54:28
going to live longer zero doubts about
00:54:30
it and you just have to sit down and
00:54:32
decide to get your ass in shape and
00:54:34
that's the hard part yeah and this isn't
00:54:36
a fitness blog but you Jesse like it's
00:54:38
much easier to gain strength when you're
00:54:40
young and that strength will serve you
00:54:42
for the rest of your life if you listen
00:54:43
to petera you know how terrible it is to
00:54:46
break a hip I think if you do it after
00:54:48
65 there's like a 50% chance you'll be
00:54:51
dead in 18 months it's something severe
00:54:53
like that but if you get your strength
00:54:54
up while you're you're young and you
00:54:56
have better balance you're much less
00:54:58
likely to have a catastrophic accident
00:55:01
when you're older but you have to do it
00:55:02
now right right here's a quick ad and
00:55:06
then we'll get back to the show did you
00:55:08
know my written Blog the best interest
00:55:11
was nominated for 2022 personal finance
00:55:13
blog of the year and it's been
00:55:15
highlighted in the Wall Street Journal
00:55:16
yahooo finance and on CNBC I love
00:55:19
writing especially when that writing is
00:55:21
to share financial education and I
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usually write one or two articles per
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week you can read them all at bestter
00:55:28
interest. blog again the web address is
00:55:31
bestter interest. blog check it out I I
00:55:35
would love to hear your thoughts on
00:55:37
going back to one of the earlier topics
00:55:39
and digging in a little bit more to like
00:55:41
your childhood sure we definitely talked
00:55:43
about it before were there more things
00:55:46
you wanted to talk about do you want to
00:55:47
talk about your dad your father anymore
00:55:50
because you know you mentioned him more
00:55:52
here than maybe you did on Mile High fi
00:55:54
or with meet but is is there more there
00:55:58
that you think listeners would benefit
00:56:00
from kind of understanding your your
00:56:02
story and your background yeah I mean we
00:56:04
would have these sad conversations
00:56:06
around the dinner table where my dad
00:56:07
would lose his job and we had to to
00:56:09
buckle down and I would notice my
00:56:11
parents spending was directly related to
00:56:13
if my dad had a job or not like they'd
00:56:15
be going crazy buying all the stuff when
00:56:17
my dad at work and then as soon as he
00:56:19
didn't they'd cut back instantly so even
00:56:22
as a kid I remember thinking like well
00:56:24
why don't they just
00:56:25
save a little bit to try to even out
00:56:28
these rough patches and the the other
00:56:31
thing about myself is I would say I was
00:56:33
a born saver and that's probably because
00:56:35
of insecurity but like my sisters used
00:56:37
to call me Mr Cheapo as a kid because I
00:56:40
like to save the money and put it away
00:56:42
where they would like to spend it I mean
00:56:44
even a subtle thing is like that
00:56:47
nickname Mr Cheapo I mean maybe it was
00:56:49
made in Jess but it's not necessarily
00:56:51
the nicest nickname and like it's
00:56:53
interesting that even then there's a
00:56:56
there at at all ages there there can be
00:56:59
stigmas against being cheap or there can
00:57:01
also be stigmas against being wasteful
00:57:04
but one thing in particular that I did
00:57:06
want to touch on Carl I was listening to
00:57:09
a rich role interview this morning and
00:57:12
Rich R mentioned that he in his past he
00:57:15
had dealt with severe alcoholism in his
00:57:18
20s and 30s and he talked about how even
00:57:21
though his parents were loving and and
00:57:24
in his case they were loving parents
00:57:26
they were supportive parents but he
00:57:29
still had some serious childhood trauma
00:57:32
that he needed to work out it's not like
00:57:33
he was abused anything like that but
00:57:35
just like things happened to him as a
00:57:37
kid that really affected the way he
00:57:39
acted in his 20s and 30s and his Outlet
00:57:42
happened to be alcohol and one thing I
00:57:44
thought was interesting was you talked
00:57:45
about how your parents were absolutely
00:57:47
loving that your father was a good man
00:57:49
but still there were things out of their
00:57:52
control to some extent whether it's a
00:57:54
mental health issue with bipolar
00:57:56
disorder whether it's an employment
00:57:58
issue with being in the construction
00:57:59
industry that ended up having these
00:58:01
Ripple effects on you as a child and
00:58:05
then eventually into you as an adult
00:58:07
yeah so Jesse one thing I think it's
00:58:09
interesting I ask people all the time
00:58:11
about their childhood experiences with
00:58:14
money and then how that
00:58:16
manifested itself as an adult like I've
00:58:20
got a couple friends who grew up in
00:58:22
similar situations and what happened to
00:58:25
them is they just blew all the money as
00:58:27
soon as they could because they thought
00:58:28
it was this great thing they thought it
00:58:29
was fleeting and it was more of a
00:58:32
reaction against a tough upbringing like
00:58:35
I didn't have this when I was young so
00:58:37
now I'm going to have everything now in
00:58:40
my case we would have these and I
00:58:42
remember these they would happen every
00:58:43
year we'd have a a sad conversation
00:58:45
around the dinner table it would happen
00:58:48
like in the winter time because that's
00:58:49
when construction slowed down so we'd
00:58:52
all sit down and after a couple of these
00:58:54
I knew it was coming my mom would say
00:58:55
hey your dad's out of work again we're
00:58:57
going to buckle down and there was one
00:58:59
point where my sister's like oh no are
00:59:02
we going to lose our house and in my
00:59:04
head I thought to myself I'm like oh no
00:59:06
this happens every year that there's no
00:59:08
way that's that's going to happen this
00:59:10
happens like the past five years and
00:59:12
we're still in the same house and my
00:59:13
mom's like well no I I don't think
00:59:15
that's going to happen and I'm like
00:59:17
these alarm belts go off in my head like
00:59:19
she said I don't think it's going to
00:59:21
happen that is not 100% certainty like
00:59:24
holy sh like this could be the end
00:59:26
of our life as we know it and I don't
00:59:29
think it affected my sisters in the same
00:59:31
way it affected me but yeah my reaction
00:59:34
to that was man I I don't ever want to
00:59:37
have to go through this stuff as an
00:59:40
adult I'm gonna get a job I'm gonna get
00:59:41
a stable job and not have have to do it
00:59:44
but then on the other hand my sisters
00:59:46
didn't have the same reaction maybe it
00:59:48
was shorter memory like later on when I
00:59:50
was a bit older and things were a bit
00:59:52
more stable I still had my saving ways I
00:59:55
would love to save money and if there
00:59:57
was anything I would want to buy I would
00:59:59
sit there and think about it for like
01:00:01
months on end like I remember I wanted
01:00:03
like a a disc man the Sony like CD
01:00:06
player I think it took me like six
01:00:08
months to buy it and I was talking to my
01:00:11
sisters one day about that they're like
01:00:12
oh just buy it I'm like yeah you know
01:00:14
what I gotta make sure I really want
01:00:17
this and this is a good use of my money
01:00:19
and then both of them started going Mr
01:00:21
Cheapo Mr Cheapo and that became name
01:00:24
their nickname for me for a certain
01:00:27
period of time so I I don't begrudge
01:00:29
them everyone has a different reaction
01:00:31
to trauma and what happened I think
01:00:34
perhaps I just had a bit of a longer
01:00:36
memory than they did that also shares an
01:00:40
interesting point as you know when you
01:00:42
have two children you said 16 and 13
01:00:44
Carl I don't have any kids but my wife
01:00:47
and I are planning on starting a family
01:00:49
soon tons of people in my life right now
01:00:52
and and many listeners of the podcast
01:00:53
have young children children our our
01:00:55
listeners tend to be maybe in that 25 to
01:00:57
40 range is where most of the listeners
01:00:59
of the podcast are and it's so
01:01:01
interesting and challenging to think
01:01:04
about how different scenarios can impact
01:01:07
your children in really different ways
01:01:09
and and so this is kind of again this is
01:01:11
just a weird tangent but being a parent
01:01:13
is really hard and you never know that
01:01:15
you know one of your kids gets stung by
01:01:17
a bee and they Shake It Off and never
01:01:19
think about it again the other one gets
01:01:21
stung by a bee and they develop a phobia
01:01:24
of bees that's hard yeah that's a great
01:01:27
point there is no one right answer to
01:01:29
teaching kids about money because every
01:01:30
human is so different the favorite
01:01:32
example I like to give about my kids was
01:01:34
my older one is a lot like me she's very
01:01:37
conservative so she would get money for
01:01:39
her birthday and then we'd go to Target
01:01:42
and she decides she wanted to buy
01:01:43
something and I would say hey Claire you
01:01:45
can buy that but if you buy it like that
01:01:47
$10 has gone forever and you'll never be
01:01:49
able to buy anything else with the $10
01:01:51
because you bought the thing and and
01:01:53
usually she would put the thing back in
01:01:54
the cart I think like almost every time
01:01:56
and then I would do the same trick with
01:01:58
my younger kid and she'd be like okay
01:02:00
Dad that's nice let's go to the cash
01:02:02
register and buy this thing and not that
01:02:05
she won't be good with money or the
01:02:06
older one will be great it's just that
01:02:08
like you said the thing that resonates
01:02:10
with one human is gonna bounce off the
01:02:12
other one and not work I think the only
01:02:15
thing we can do is set a really good
01:02:16
example let them know how hard we work
01:02:19
for our money and the appreciation we
01:02:21
have for it not spend on silly things
01:02:23
and that's it that at some point we have
01:02:26
to let go and hope for the best but
01:02:29
Jesse I've tried to bribe my children
01:02:31
have you read die with zero yet or I
01:02:33
have not I have not it's on my list
01:02:35
though yeah one real quick tangent is in
01:02:37
that book he makes the case for giving
01:02:40
your kids substantial sums of money when
01:02:43
they're in their 30s instead of waiting
01:02:45
till you die because well I I hope when
01:02:47
I die my kids are old and by that point
01:02:51
if everything has gone well they'll be
01:02:53
set any money I could leave them is
01:02:54
going to be a diminishing return because
01:02:57
hopefully they've already made it but if
01:02:59
your kids are on solid Financial footing
01:03:01
when they're like 30 or 32 or 34 and if
01:03:04
you've got substantial wealth maybe buy
01:03:06
them a house because that is gonna
01:03:09
absolutely change their life so I've
01:03:12
bribed my kids I'm like you know what I
01:03:13
listened to this dial with zero book and
01:03:14
I told them what I just told you like if
01:03:17
I feel you're doing really well and
01:03:18
you're smart with money I might give you
01:03:20
a lot more but you have to prove
01:03:23
yourself to me and straight so I hope
01:03:26
that motivates them a little bit that'll
01:03:28
probably backfire on me somehow and
01:03:30
we'll be in some reality TV show or
01:03:33
something and everything will blow up no
01:03:35
I think it'll be fine but I don't know
01:03:37
there's no good answers for I think
01:03:39
there are good answers for how to teach
01:03:42
kids about money but there's not one
01:03:44
good formula right right and that's a
01:03:47
really interesting concept I've I've
01:03:48
heard people talk about that concept
01:03:50
from die with zero before as someone in
01:03:52
his young to mid-30s right now hey I I
01:03:55
support that idea but it is actually
01:03:57
interesting I I do feel like this is
01:03:59
that point of life where life gets
01:04:02
pretty expensive between you know you're
01:04:05
still kind of earlier in your career so
01:04:07
maybe you're not at your Peak earning
01:04:08
Years yet but you're looking for maybe a
01:04:12
first home or a forever home so like
01:04:15
there's a big real estate purchase maybe
01:04:16
on the horizon you're either already
01:04:18
have young kids or you're looking to
01:04:20
start a family children are very
01:04:22
expensive and meanwhile while you're
01:04:25
being taught that you need to put money
01:04:26
away for the long run and you still want
01:04:28
to have fun with friends and so life
01:04:31
gets expensive and pretty quickly I I
01:04:33
can tell you from my experience I have
01:04:36
cut my savings rate pretty significantly
01:04:39
in the last 12 months because of all
01:04:42
those things I just talked about I I
01:04:44
hope that two or three years from now
01:04:46
it'll bounce back to where it was before
01:04:48
but a little cash injection would go a
01:04:51
long way right now so anyway I support
01:04:53
it maybe you should buy your parents die
01:04:55
with zero or interview Bill Perkins hey
01:04:58
hey parents listen to this
01:05:01
right Carl thank you so much for sitting
01:05:04
down with us if anyone wants to reach
01:05:06
out to you or maybe they want to stay in
01:05:08
touch and and hear your follow-ups as
01:05:10
you spend more money and and as your
01:05:13
attitude towards spending kind of
01:05:15
evolves in the future how can they
01:05:17
follow along yeah my blog is 1500
01:05:21
days.com that's the amount of time I
01:05:23
thought it would take me to to
01:05:24
accumulate enough money to retire and I
01:05:26
also have a podcast at Mile
01:05:29
high.com just fi.com
01:05:32
Carl Jensen Mr 1500 thank you for
01:05:35
sitting down with us on the best
01:05:37
interest podcast yeah thank you so much
01:05:39
for having me Jesse fun
01:05:41
[Music]
01:05:44
conversation thanks for tuning in to
01:05:46
this episode of the best interest
01:05:48
podcast if you have a question for Jesse
01:05:50
to answer on a future episode send him
01:05:52
an email at Jesse best bestter interest.
01:05:55
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01:05:58
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01:06:00
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01:06:03
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01:06:07
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01:06:11
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01:06:13
[Music]
01:06:15
podcast the best interest podcast is a
01:06:18
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01:06:20
entertainment it should not be taken as
01:06:22
Financial advice and is not prescriptive
01:06:25
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01:06:27
situation