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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello and welcome to episode 86
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer after much fanfare and lots
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of requests we're back with a second ask
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me anything episode or AMA episode here
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on the best interest podcast if you're
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interested episode 81 was our first AMA
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episode and it shot through the roof in
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terms of being the most listened to
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episode so far in podcast history and
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today we're back with some great
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questions from you listeners about
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social security about annuities uh a
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question about compound growth another
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one about using retirement assets to pay
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off a mortgage early that's an
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interesting planning question and
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another financial plan question about
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defining the risks or the lack of risks
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in someone's retirement plan but before
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we get to the first question let's do a
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customary review of the week this one
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comes from listener years y e iirs years
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who left a five-star rating and wrote in
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very helpful I came across the podcast
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about a week ago and have since listened
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to eight episodes in no particular order
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as a newbie I find it immensely helpful
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and easy to follow which is exactly what
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I needed the variety of guests on the
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show discussing different topics has
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also been very helpful I look forward to
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discovering more valuable content in the
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Content Library on the blogs and on
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future episodes to come Years thank you
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very much for those kind words shoot me
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an email uh to Jesse best bestin
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interest. blog and we'll get you hooked
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up with a super soft bestest t-shirt now
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on to the AMA questions the first
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question comes from Mindy who wrote in
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and said I'd love to be used as a
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non-traditional case study I'm 50 and
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was widowed last year at age 49 my
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daughter is currently receiving survivor
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benefits and I will be able to collect
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Widow benefits at age 60 unless I
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remarry I've thought about my potential
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benefit in a lump sum dollar amount that
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would produce 4% per year just like he
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stated in your article and unless some
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dude is willing to sign a prenup with a
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non-refundable deposit of $800,000 to $1
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million I'm not remarrying what are your
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thoughts Jesse so Mindy sorry for your
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loss that is far too young to lose a
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spouse and you present a very
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interesting question which listeners IND
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is alluding to an article I wrote which
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we will link in the show notes that
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talks about thinking of your Social
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Security or your pension or any other
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sort of fixed income stream as a lump
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sum right because you can use the 4%
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rule or potentially a different rule I
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actually recommend using more of a five
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or 6% rule you can use it forwards or
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backwards meaning you can take your
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lumpsum portfolio and think about it
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using the 4% rule as a a stream of
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income out into the future or you can
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take a stream of income come out into
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the future like Social Security or a
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pension and divide it by 4% or 5% or 6%
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to work your way into a lump sum amount
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let me start with a caveat to all your
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listeners when it comes to part of
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Mindy's question and the caveat is that
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the world of Social Security spousal
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benefits and Social Security survivor
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benefits it is a deep and nuanced and
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confusing world it is not a casual
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personal finance topic and so I highly
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recommend there are tools out there on
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the internet that you can use and
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calculators that you can use to do some
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math on your own to try to understand
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how it works the language if you spend
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enough time it's all English words right
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we should be able to understand it but
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even then rules have changed over time
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not every resource that you find on the
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internet will get those rules correct
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and this is the kind of thing that you
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want to make sure you get it right it
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might be worth sitting down with a
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certified financial planner even if only
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for an hour to make sure that your plan
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is working correctly and that your
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understanding of spousal benefits or
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survivor benefits is correct so in
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Mindy's case we would need to start by
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asking her questions like is Mindy
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caring for a child under the age of 16
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is Mindy caring for a child with a
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disability is Mindy herself disabled
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does Mindy or was her husband before her
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husband's death caring for her husband's
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elderly parents all of those kind of
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questions can qualify or potentially
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disqualify Mindy for various different
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types or levels of survivor benefits but
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as Mindy alluded to she's likely going
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to wait at least until age 60 to start
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collecting her survivor benefits and
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she's not planning on remarrying now why
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is that well for starters if Mindy's own
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future benefit you know the benefit that
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she's earned through her own work and
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through her own Social Security taxes
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and through her own earnings if Mindy's
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own future benefit is lower than what
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her husband's benefit would have been
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then Mindy will be best served in the
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long run by collecting a Survivor
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benefit which will take the place and
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Will supersede her own benefit so to be
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clear she doesn't get to collect both
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benefits she doesn't get to collect her
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own earned benefit and her husband's
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Survivor benefit she only gets to
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collect the higher of the two but if her
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husband's benefit is higher then that's
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going to be the one she's going to want
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to collect now if Mindy remarries and
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depending on the age at which Mindy
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remarries she could disqualify herself
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from collecting that Survivor benefit
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from her husband's passing if she
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remarries before the age of 50 then
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Mindy is not going to be eligible for
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any survivor benefits unless and this is
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where it gets nuanced and and it you
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really have to be careful here unless
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Mindy later divorces the remarried
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husband then potentially Mindy can
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become eligible again for survivor
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benefits via the death of her first
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husband nuanced nuanced nuanced now if
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Mindy remarries between ages 50 and 5 9
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then no survivor benefits are available
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for Mindy at all and then if Mindy does
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get remarried after age 60 then survivor
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benefits may be available for her it it
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depends again there there are more
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Corner cases and if then scenarios
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divorce throws another monkey wrench
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into this conversation so just a quick
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example now let's say Bob and Sharon are
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our favorite couple let's say they're
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they're married couple and they've been
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married from ages 25 to 45 after which
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they divorce and for the sake of example
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we're going to say Bob was the main
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bread winner in the family while Sharon
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stayed at home with the kids mostly so
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Bob's Social Security earnings history
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is great while Sharon's is not now in
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that scenario even after their divorce
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at the age of 45 Sharon will eventually
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be able to collect a spousal Social
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Security benefit based on Bob's earning
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record and that fact that Sharon is
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collecting based on Bob's record it
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doesn't negatively affect Bob's own
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benefit at all now some of the
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qualifications and the reasons why this
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is possible for Sharon is that their
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marriage lasted at least 10 years it's
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based on the fact of Sharon not
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remarrying in the future it's also based
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on the fact that Sharon's ex Bob would
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be eligible on his own to collect Social
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Security or disability benefits meaning
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Sharon can start collecting a spousal
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benefit once Bob is old enough to start
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collecting his own social security
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benefit right Bob has to have reached
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age 62 again we have to do a comparison
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in almost every case that I'm aware of a
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person can can only collect one type of
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social security benefit at a time so
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Sharon would have to compare her own
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earned benefits to the spousal benefit
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from Bob and Sharon's going to collect
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whichever one is greater it's also
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dependent on Sharon being a full
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retirement age of 67 years or older and
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the divorce has to have occurred at
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least two years ago okay lots of little
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nuances and lots of rules around this
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but back to Mindy who asked us this
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question in the first place Mindy said
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I've thought of my potential benefit in
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a lumpsum dollar amount which would
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produce 4% per year as you stated in
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your article on the best interest and
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unless some dude is willing to sign a
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prenup with a non-refundable deposit of
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a million dollar I'm not remarrying so
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again Mindy's referring to an article I
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wrote which we will throw in the show
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notes that encourages all of you
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listening to consider your Social
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Security your pension or any stream of
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income benefit as if it were a lump sum
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of fixed income in your portfolio now is
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Mindy's Survivor benefit actually worth
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a million dollars I'm not sure of the
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details but I will say that the average
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person's Social Security is about $1,800
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per month for about 20 years of their
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life which if we use what I think we
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should use which is about a 6% rule not
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the 4% rule that Mindy recommended but
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either way it equates that social
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security benefit equates to a fixed
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income lump sum of about
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$350,000 if Mindy's husband was a high
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earner if Mindy's going to be collecting
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that benefit for a long period of time
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maybe she's very healthy it could be
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realistic to think of her Survivor
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benefit as more than twice of what the
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average person's benefit is it might be
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3/4 of a million dollars or more and
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depending on the rest of Mindy's
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financial situation that kind of benefit
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3/4 of a million dollars more than that
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that benefit could be a keystone that
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remarrying might remove from her plan
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and potentially damage her retirement so
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I don't want to encourage Mindy or any
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of you to put money above love but I do
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think it's simply Smart Financial
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Planning to consider how your
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relationship can and will affect your
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finances Mindy is right to think this
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through these are the kinds of questions
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and scenarios and if then logic that a
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team of professionals whether it's a
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family attorney or a cfp financial
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planner can help you work through so
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Mindy best of luck and thank you for the
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great question okay next question Bob
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wrote in and this is different by the
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way than Bob and Sharon completely
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different Bob sorry for the the double
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use of the name here Bob wrote in and
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asked Jesse I'm a new listener to your
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podcast I love the content I'm going
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through the many episodes that interest
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me and I've been enjoying all of them
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well thank you very much Bob I recently
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started working with a Vanguard cfp and
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I'd like to get your opinion on our
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future plans from a financial
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perspective before I float this question
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to our adviser my wife and I are in our
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late 50s and we have $1.2 million in our
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retirement savings we're planning to
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retire in 5 to 10 years we also want to
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sell our home and move to a newer home
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we owe about $150,000 on our existing
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mortgage at about a 4% rate and we have
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estimated on a 600,00 ,000 sale price
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the new homes we're looking at would
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cost about
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$700,000 so if you do the math it means
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that we would need a $200 to $300,000
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mortgage on our new home my question is
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do we use some of our retirement savings
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to lower the cost of our monthly
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mortgage payment or should we
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potentially use our retirement savings
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to have no mortgage altogether in other
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words to to make up that $200 to
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$300,000 gap or should we just take the
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mortgage leave our retirements savings
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as is and simply make the monthly
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payments until the mortgage runs out
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okay great question Bob a perfect
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perfect financial planning question
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because you have lots of options various
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knobs to turn and most likely there is
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an optimal decision out there that does
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exist if we can find it so for starters
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you listeners I did ask Bob for a bit
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more information about the various
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puzzle pieces in his life I wanted to
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know more about his family's total
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assets any debts their current income
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their projected social security income
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and a few more it
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the reason is it's hard to give advice
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without knowing all of the potential
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consequences and it's hard to know all
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of those consequences unless you really
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have all the chips on the table as far
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as I'm aware the cfps the certified
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financial planners who I know who are
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worth their salt they insist upon
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collecting as much information as
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possible before ever giving advice and
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this is why a good financial planner
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will often give the frustrating answer
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of it depends if you ask them a question
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about your life but they don't know all
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the details about your life the only
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responsible answer they can give is well
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it depends so Bob gave me a lot more
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information most of which falls into the
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camp of reasonable typical pre- retiree
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info there's nothing too crazy in Bob's
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situation that I'm aware of and that
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allowed me to make the following
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recommendations for Bob so what Bob
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doesn't want to do in my opinion is use
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$300,000 of his retirement accounts all
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at once to pay off or eliminate the
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mortgage now why the main reason why is
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because that would realize
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$300,000 of extra income into one tax
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year it would push Bob's marginal
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federal tax rate into the 32% tax
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bracket maybe even into the 35% tax
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bracket and depending on what state Bob
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lives in it would also Spike his State
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marginal tax bracket a cfp Worth or salt
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will analyze this kind of question will
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give a very confident answer to Bob I
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have a safer path that I've laid out for
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him but these are the kind of analyses
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that I think doing a home ownership
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analysis typically for a younger family
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who might be buying their first home
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it's something I've done a number of
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times at work very very fun to do in
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part because it's such a local problem
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right it can depend on the specific
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metro area where someone's looking to
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buy a home and what the home prices are
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there it can depend on certain County
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taxes a really fun one we did was for a
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couple who lives in Washington DC and
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depending on if they lived in Washington
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DC itself or in Maryland or in Virginia
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their state income tax would change so
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not only is it a housing question itself
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of the cost of the house and and the
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mortgage rate and all those kind of
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things and what their income is but
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there's also this part of the question
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which is to say well depending on which
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state or DC in which they live their
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income for quite a long period of time
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will get taxed at a different rate so
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anyway very fun questions that a cfp can
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help provide answers to but here are
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some of my thoughts for Bob a safer path
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I think would be to get the mortgage as
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soon as you're ready as soon as you
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found the house that you want go ahead
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get that $300,000 mortgage but do not
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pay it down early at least not yet the
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next step is at the end of the the
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current tax year whatever year this ends
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up being at the end of the current tax
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year you need to ask yourself a do you
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have extra room in your current tax
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bracket that you haven't realized the
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income to fill up that particular tax
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bracket and then B is that current tax
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bracket relatively even to your future
00:14:28
expected tax bracket in other words are
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you paying a 22% marginal tax today and
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also expecting to pay a 22% tax
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throughout retirement you might not know
00:14:39
the answer to that your financial
00:14:40
planner should be able to help you with
00:14:42
that question now if you answered those
00:14:44
questions yes and yes if you have extra
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room in your tax bracket and your
00:14:49
current tax bracket is relatively even
00:14:51
or favorable compared to your future tax
00:14:54
bracket then you can and should fill up
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your current tax bracket with extra r
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drawals to pay down your mortgage and
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then you can rinse and repeat for future
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years so again to break that down
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potentially in an even more simple way
00:15:07
is to say if Bob is in a favorable tax
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situation as compared to the future if
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he's paying less taxes now then he'll
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pay in the future then he should go
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ahead take some retirement assets out of
00:15:20
his retirement accounts pay those taxes
00:15:22
because we've just established they're
00:15:23
relatively low right now and then he can
00:15:26
use the the proceeds to pay down his
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mortgage but if Bob's in a situation
00:15:30
where right now he's in a pretty high
00:15:32
tax bracket and in the future he'll be
00:15:34
in a much lower tax bracket it does not
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make sense to pay high taxes right now
00:15:40
simply to pay off a a 7% mortgage or
00:15:43
something like this now most likely this
00:15:46
will result in Bob paying off his
00:15:47
mortgage considerably early but over the
00:15:50
course of multiple years the rate at
00:15:52
which he's paying off the mortgage will
00:15:54
increase dramatically once both Bob and
00:15:56
his wife are fully retired right they'll
00:15:59
have no more W2 income they'll be in
00:16:01
very low tax brackets with lots of extra
00:16:04
room for those mortgage payments so in
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other words Bob your best bet might be
00:16:09
that you have the mortgage in full while
00:16:10
you're still working and then you pay it
00:16:12
off rapidly once you fully retire now
00:16:15
this also means that Bob should likely
00:16:17
delay taking social security until after
00:16:19
the mortgage is paid off because there's
00:16:21
no sense in taking social security in
00:16:24
years when you are intentionally and
00:16:26
knowingly increasing your taxable income
00:16:29
right Social Security can be partially
00:16:31
taxable and the rate at which it's
00:16:33
taxable increases the more money you
00:16:35
earn so what's the point in taking
00:16:37
social security and paying extra taxes
00:16:39
on it in years when you know that you're
00:16:42
going to be increasing your taxable
00:16:43
income to pay off your mortgage so pay
00:16:46
off the mortgage first with those years
00:16:48
of higher taxable income and then once
00:16:50
you're done paying off the mortgage then
00:16:51
you can turn on Social Security all of
00:16:53
this too we should say is based on the
00:16:56
assumption that Bob's mortgage rate will
00:16:58
be in the roughly 7% or so range because
00:17:02
as I'm talking to you right now in in
00:17:03
June of 2024 7% is about the prevailing
00:17:06
mortgage rate so with a 7% guaranteed
00:17:10
return from paying down the mortgage
00:17:12
that's worth pursuing that's worth
00:17:14
potentially you know realizing some
00:17:16
taxes to to pay off that mortgage early
00:17:18
but if you were to ask me this question
00:17:20
again next year and mortgage rates were
00:17:22
back in say the 4% range my answer would
00:17:25
absolutely change there's no need to pay
00:17:27
down that 4% mortgage early you'd much
00:17:30
rather keep the tax deferred money where
00:17:32
it is in the ira in the retirement
00:17:34
account growing at what's likely a much
00:17:36
greater than 4% per year Bob then asked
00:17:39
a quick follow-up question which is how
00:17:41
to balance Roth conversions with this
00:17:43
idea so again we're throwing a little
00:17:45
bit more complexity into the situation
00:17:47
not only is Bob looking to pay down his
00:17:48
mortgage early he's also hoping to
00:17:51
potentially do Roth conversions so again
00:17:53
Bob this comes down to a mortgage rate
00:17:56
and a tax rate question depending on the
00:17:58
mortgage the mortgage rate you might be
00:18:00
best served by drawing on your IRA
00:18:03
paying income taxes to pay down your
00:18:05
mortgage early in that case your best
00:18:07
bet is likely to pay down the mortgage
00:18:09
completely before changing your
00:18:10
attention over to Ral conversions but
00:18:13
with a low enough mortgage rate I
00:18:15
wouldn't worry about the Mortgage Debt
00:18:16
at all and then assuming you in your
00:18:18
lower earning years potentially your
00:18:20
earliest retirement years with no W2
00:18:23
income but before you've turned on
00:18:24
Social Security well those are the
00:18:26
perfect years to use your low marginal
00:18:29
tax rate to conduct Roth conversions so
00:18:32
Bob best of luck with these choices feel
00:18:34
free to let me know let us know what
00:18:36
your Vanguard cfp says and if you're
00:18:38
interested in a second opinion from my
00:18:39
colleagues we can certainly talk here's
00:18:42
a quick ad and then we'll get back to
00:18:44
the show serious question why do
00:18:47
podcasters constantly ask for ratings
00:18:49
and reviews yes they do help highlight
00:18:51
our shows to new listeners they help
00:18:53
strangers find us on Apple podcast and
00:18:55
Spotify it's totally true and a good
00:18:57
reason to ask for reads and reviews but
00:19:00
I have something more important at least
00:19:02
more important to me I want to know if
00:19:04
you like this stuff I want to know if
00:19:06
you like my podcast episodes my
00:19:08
monologues my guests the information I
00:19:10
share with you and the stories I tell I
00:19:12
want to improve and make your listening
00:19:14
more enjoyable in the process so yeah I
00:19:16
would love to read your reviews and sure
00:19:18
if you throw a rating in there too
00:19:20
that's great if you like what I'm doing
00:19:22
please share it with me it's such a
00:19:24
great feeling to read your feedback I'd
00:19:27
love to read your review or see a rating
00:19:29
on Apple podcast or Spotify thank you
00:19:33
next question Ted wrote in and said hey
00:19:35
Jesse we all know leaving one's money
00:19:37
alone in an investment account is
00:19:39
advantageous over many years due to the
00:19:41
magic of compound interest I've heard
00:19:44
this hundreds of times from many
00:19:45
personal finance bloggers however when
00:19:47
explaining this to a novice investor I
00:19:49
stumbled on how exactly this works for
00:19:52
stocks for stock mutual funds and stock
00:19:54
index funds it's easy to explain for a
00:19:57
savings account at a bank but there's no
00:19:59
interest earned from stocks so would you
00:20:01
please explain the math taking into
00:20:03
account that some stocks pay little or
00:20:05
no dividends at all and would you reach
00:20:07
out to other bloggers and podcasters to
00:20:09
stop using the phrase compound interest
00:20:11
when explaining this phenomenon and as
00:20:14
long as we're down this Rabbit Hole
00:20:15
please confirm that this does not apply
00:20:18
at all to bonds or bond funds I love
00:20:20
your show thanks well Ted very very
00:20:23
interesting question you're right
00:20:25
compound interest is quite often a nomer
00:20:29
I think the more appropriate verbiage
00:20:31
and perhaps the more all-encompassing
00:20:33
verbiage is compound growth all right so
00:20:36
forgive me if I ever use the word
00:20:38
compound interest here you get the
00:20:40
principle but I think compound growth
00:20:42
captures the principle more widely for
00:20:45
all different investment products
00:20:46
because as Ted pointed out some types of
00:20:48
Investments do Shed off interest other
00:20:51
types of Investments simply grow and
00:20:53
there is a a Nuance different there
00:20:55
which we will get to in this answer so
00:20:58
the question then from Tad is how does
00:21:00
compound Growth work for a stock first
00:21:03
we need to remember that owning a stock
00:21:05
is simply a different way of saying
00:21:07
owning a company right stocks are
00:21:10
businesses stocks are companies how does
00:21:12
compound Growth work for a business or
00:21:14
for a company let's go simple let's
00:21:16
think of a lemonade stand okay so the
00:21:18
first summer you are the one and only
00:21:20
employee of the lemonade stand Tad then
00:21:22
there's one stand at the end of your one
00:21:25
driveway and you sell 100 cups of
00:21:27
lemonade per day and over the course of
00:21:29
the summer you earn $1,000 in profit
00:21:32
good for you fast forward to the second
00:21:33
summer you have your $1,000 in profit
00:21:36
and you decide to use that to hire a
00:21:38
second employee and to build a second
00:21:40
lemonade stand on some other Corner in
00:21:42
another part of town you essentially
00:21:44
double your efforts and sure enough at
00:21:46
the end of the summer you now have
00:21:48
$2,000 in profit enter the third summer
00:21:51
you use your $2,000 in profit to rinse
00:21:54
and repeat the same thing you now have
00:21:56
employees three and four and lemonade
00:21:58
stands three and four and you earn
00:22:00
$4,000 in profit now oversimplified yes
00:22:04
but if I keep going in this business
00:22:06
you'll see that my profits are doubling
00:22:08
every year that is compound growth and
00:22:11
as my profits grow I'm able to reinvest
00:22:13
those profits and increase the amount of
00:22:15
growth the following year my business is
00:22:19
not only is my Revenue growing but the
00:22:20
overall value of my business is growing
00:22:23
too and not only is the business growing
00:22:26
but the rate of growth as measured in of
00:22:29
profit is actually accelerating it went
00:22:31
from a new business to $1,000 in profit
00:22:34
to 2,000 in profit to $4,000 in profit
00:22:37
ostensibly next summer it would be 8,000
00:22:39
in profit then 16,000 in profit right
00:22:42
the Delta between each summer is
00:22:44
accelerating and that's the goal for
00:22:46
most businesses if you own a portion of
00:22:48
the lemonade stand with me then the
00:22:50
value of your ownership would be growing
00:22:53
and the rate of the value growth is
00:22:55
accelerating your investment is
00:22:57
experiencing compound grow now let's
00:22:59
bundle M lemonade stand with your
00:23:01
bicycle shop with the local ice cream
00:23:03
shop with a local accountant etc etc etc
00:23:06
we now have a fund of many different
00:23:08
businesses all of which are trying to
00:23:10
grow now some succeed and some fail uh
00:23:12
some grow quickly some grow slowly but
00:23:15
on average growth is achieved and on net
00:23:17
that growth is accelerating over time
00:23:20
this fund which we could call in the
00:23:22
stock World a mutual fund is also
00:23:24
experiencing compound growth so Tad that
00:23:28
is how compound growth works for stocks
00:23:30
you have businesses that are growing and
00:23:33
that are trying to accelerate their
00:23:34
growth over time and that leads to a a
00:23:37
net compound growth for anyone who owns
00:23:39
those businesses and we as stockholders
00:23:42
are owners of those businesses but then
00:23:44
Tad also asked please confirm that this
00:23:46
does not apply to bonds or bond funds
00:23:49
Tad let's start with the basics what's a
00:23:51
bond a bond is when you own someone
00:23:53
else's debt for example a US treasury
00:23:55
bond is literally the fact that you are
00:23:58
Lending ending the US government your
00:23:59
money and the US government is promising
00:24:02
to repay you over a certain period of
00:24:03
time with interest payments along the
00:24:06
way you own the US's debt and the us is
00:24:09
going to repay you in time with interest
00:24:11
so if you're collecting 5% interest
00:24:13
payments from the US government you have
00:24:15
a couple options of what to do with that
00:24:17
so the first option is you could take
00:24:18
the interest payment and you could just
00:24:20
stick it under your mattress where it
00:24:21
will sit there and it will not grow at
00:24:23
all but the second option and the better
00:24:26
option is that you take your interest
00:24:27
payment and you reinvest it you can
00:24:30
reinvest that interest payment into more
00:24:31
bonds or into stocks or to something
00:24:34
else that's growing some other type of
00:24:35
investment and in this case I hope you
00:24:37
can see that we are taking the profits
00:24:40
from the investment just like we took
00:24:42
the profits from our lemonade stand and
00:24:44
we are putting those profits to use to
00:24:46
create even more profits so by
00:24:48
reinvesting our bond income we will
00:24:51
achieve compound growth anything that's
00:24:53
growing as long as the profits are used
00:24:55
to generate more profits you will
00:24:57
achieve compound growth in the case of
00:24:59
companies it might look like the company
00:25:01
itself reinvesting in their own business
00:25:04
if the company does provide you
00:25:05
dividends which was part of your
00:25:07
question Tad well now you have that cash
00:25:09
on hand you can stick it under your bed
00:25:10
if you want or you can choose to
00:25:12
reinvest it in the case of a savings
00:25:14
account or bonds or real estate rent
00:25:17
which is another example they all
00:25:19
require you as the investor to take your
00:25:22
proceeds to take the cash that you have
00:25:24
earned from the investment and to
00:25:26
reinvest it yourself so either way
00:25:28
reinvested Capital that is the
00:25:30
underpinning of all compound growth
00:25:33
whether it's compound interest or
00:25:35
whether it's occurring inside of a
00:25:36
company inside of a stock as long as
00:25:38
capital is being reinvested in the
00:25:40
pursuit of more Revenue more profits
00:25:42
that is the underpinning of compound
00:25:44
growth so Tad I hope that answers your
00:25:47
terrific question thank you for writing
00:25:49
in the next question comes from Dan Dan
00:25:51
wrote in and said Jesse I'm in
00:25:53
retirement to me bonds are useful to
00:25:55
help stabilize my investments by
00:25:57
operating opposite of stocks however I
00:26:00
have four pensions of which three are
00:26:02
indexed to inflation the pensions cover
00:26:05
about 80% of my household budget and
00:26:08
cover all of my must pay bills I've set
00:26:11
aside some money in CDs or certificates
00:26:13
of deposit to cover several years of a
00:26:16
potential down Market I also have term
00:26:18
life insurance which I do plan to end in
00:26:20
a few years so I've treated the pensions
00:26:23
as the stabilizing bucket the CDs as a a
00:26:26
risk management against down markets and
00:26:28
I've ignored bonds altogether putting
00:26:30
all of my remaining investment dollars
00:26:32
into stocks to be clear my wife and I
00:26:35
have
00:26:36
$137,000 in annual pensions while I am
00:26:38
living and my wife will have $442,000 in
00:26:42
pensions if I were to die so I'm trying
00:26:45
to live as long as possible to leave
00:26:47
more investment money to her in the
00:26:48
future financial planner looked at my
00:26:51
plan and said that my Approach was high
00:26:53
risk because I had no bonds what are
00:26:55
your thoughts Jesse so Dan very
00:26:58
interesting question and and listeners
00:27:00
first off you should know that Dan did
00:27:02
share a few more specific details with
00:27:03
me which I've left out for the sake of
00:27:05
brevity the main details are that Dan
00:27:07
and his wife will also be eligible for
00:27:09
Social Security and once you account for
00:27:11
the fact that 80% of their spending is
00:27:13
covered by pensions and Social Security
00:27:15
Dan needs to cover the remaining 20% of
00:27:18
his annual spending somehow and if you
00:27:20
actually run the math and you look at
00:27:22
Dan's CD safety net plus his stock
00:27:25
portfolio Dan has about 50 years worth
00:27:28
of money Dan only needs to cover 20% of
00:27:31
his annual spending the rest is covered
00:27:33
by his pensions so to cover that small
00:27:35
20% slice Dan's got about 50 years of
00:27:38
that sitting in stocks so between cash
00:27:41
and CDs Dan has about 10 years worth of
00:27:44
coverage sitting there to help cover for
00:27:46
that 20% slice that isn't covered by his
00:27:49
pensions and then if you look at stocks
00:27:51
Dan has about 40 years worth of spending
00:27:53
in stocks again 40 years worth of those
00:27:56
20% slices in stock index funds so is
00:28:00
Dan at high risk now it's hard for me to
00:28:03
say yes I certainly wouldn't use the
00:28:05
term high risk but if there is a risk in
00:28:07
Dan's retirement plan we should ask at
00:28:10
risk of what there are different types
00:28:12
of risk we'll get into this in the next
00:28:13
question there's the risk that someone
00:28:15
dies early there's also a risk that
00:28:17
someone lives a really long time there's
00:28:19
the risk that markets tank there's a
00:28:21
risk of high inflation there are all
00:28:23
these different types of risk in
00:28:24
retirement and some assets are really
00:28:26
good at addressing some types of of risk
00:28:28
while bad at addressing other types of
00:28:30
risk and to me I do see one risk in the
00:28:33
details that Dan has shared with us that
00:28:36
risk in my opinion is the risk of Dan's
00:28:39
death you know as Dan pointed out the
00:28:41
family's pension income would drop from
00:28:43
$137,000 a year to $42,000 a year if Dan
00:28:47
died that's a 70% decrease when a spouse
00:28:51
passes away the household spending does
00:28:53
typically decrease but it doesn't get
00:28:55
cut in half only certain expenses get
00:28:57
cut and half many expenses some expenses
00:29:00
they stay exactly the same so the total
00:29:02
household spending might only drop by
00:29:04
30% or 40% so we have a a 30% drop in
00:29:08
spending upon Dan's death but a 70%
00:29:11
decrease in the pension income that
00:29:13
presents a potential risk and it's worth
00:29:16
Dan going through that math to first off
00:29:19
to verify whether the numbers actually
00:29:21
bear that risk out is it real if that
00:29:23
were to happen does Dan have enough cash
00:29:26
and stocks to kind of mitigate that risk
00:29:29
but if it is still there then Dan might
00:29:31
have to find a way to mitigate that risk
00:29:32
in some other way or at least to talk
00:29:34
through what kind of knobs are left to
00:29:36
turn in the event of Dan's death he
00:29:38
should talk about that risk now and and
00:29:40
put together a plan now while Dan is
00:29:42
still alive and sure while listening to
00:29:44
the best interest podcast so in my
00:29:46
opinion the most objective investment
00:29:48
approach is for Dan and his spouse to
00:29:50
look at their assets to assign those
00:29:52
dollars to specific goals in their life
00:29:54
because they have so much pension income
00:29:56
those goals might not be day-to-day
00:29:59
Lifestyle the goals might be something
00:30:01
else it might be something extravagant
00:30:03
it might be something soon it might be
00:30:04
something in the next decade some of
00:30:06
those goals might be at death you know
00:30:08
they might have a goal to say whenever
00:30:09
we die who knows when it'll be we're
00:30:11
going to leave some of our money to the
00:30:12
kids we're going to leave some of our
00:30:14
money to charity that kind of thing and
00:30:16
then Dan should find appropriate
00:30:18
Investments based on those timelines it
00:30:21
might lead and it probably will lead to
00:30:23
a very small Bond allocation to ensure
00:30:26
that Dan's nearest term go goals are
00:30:28
sufficiently met but with the amount of
00:30:30
pension income that Dan is receiving to
00:30:32
cover day-to-day life there is a high
00:30:34
likelihood that a vast majority stock
00:30:36
portfolio is totally appropriate for Dan
00:30:39
now I haven't written this article yet
00:30:41
but by the time this podcast airs I hope
00:30:43
to have written a blog post about need
00:30:46
ability and willingness those are the
00:30:48
three words to consider when an investor
00:30:50
thinks about risk in their portfolio
00:30:53
does Dan have the need to take on risk
00:30:56
does Dan have the ability to take on
00:30:58
risk and does Dan have the willingness
00:31:00
to suffer the downsides of risk in order
00:31:03
to achieve the upsides need ability and
00:31:06
willingness now need and ability are
00:31:08
objective right those are numbers based
00:31:10
so Dan has so much pension income he
00:31:13
likely doesn't mathematically need to
00:31:16
take on risk or to seek large investment
00:31:18
returns in order to live his preferred
00:31:20
lifestyle right he could probably take
00:31:22
his stock Investments put them all into
00:31:24
a high interest savings account and he
00:31:27
could Cruise for the rest of his life
00:31:28
now I might be wrong there but it's
00:31:30
certainly the impression I get he
00:31:31
doesn't need to take on risk however Dan
00:31:33
does have the ability to take on lots of
00:31:35
risk because his short-term cash flow
00:31:37
needs are so well covered Dan can
00:31:40
earmark a lot of his dollars for long
00:31:42
long periods of time in the future and
00:31:44
take on investment risk because of that
00:31:46
and then as far as willingness goes
00:31:48
willingness is more subjective he he
00:31:50
sounds like he's willing to take on risk
00:31:52
so because Dan has the ability and the
00:31:54
willingness to take on risk even though
00:31:56
he doesn't have much need it's probably
00:31:58
okay for him to take on risk so that's
00:32:00
another way I would approach the problem
00:32:01
Dan I think about your need and ability
00:32:04
and willingness to take on risk and find
00:32:07
a balance between those three words it's
00:32:09
mostly objective but with a pretty solid
00:32:11
sprinkling of personal subjectivity
00:32:14
based on your personality Dan and then
00:32:16
once you find a balance between those
00:32:17
three words you invest accordingly so
00:32:20
thank you Dan for the great question
00:32:22
here's a quick ad and then we'll get
00:32:24
back to the show one of the more common
00:32:26
questions I hear is Jesse what do you
00:32:29
like in use books blogs podcasts even
00:32:32
Banks and brokerage firms what are your
00:32:34
recommendations so to answer that
00:32:36
question I put together a web page you
00:32:39
can check it out at bestin interest.
00:32:41
blog reccommendations again that's
00:32:44
bestin interest. blog reccommendations
00:32:47
to check out how I'm improving my
00:32:50
financial life and now we have our last
00:32:53
question from Amy it's a short question
00:32:55
but it's a doozy Amy wrote in and said
00:32:57
said hey Jesse I've heard a segment on
00:33:00
another show about having an annuity set
00:33:03
up from your 401k to create a quote
00:33:05
unquote paycheck in retirement it sounds
00:33:08
convenient but there were downsides of
00:33:10
course it seemed like a topic that might
00:33:12
be fun for you to unpack thanks for the
00:33:14
question Amy and yes when I hear
00:33:16
annuities are paychecks I do get a
00:33:18
little nervous a little concerned it's
00:33:21
not because of a factual error but
00:33:23
instead it's because it sounds a little
00:33:25
bit like a sales pitch to me and while
00:33:27
certainly not all sales pitches are
00:33:29
inherently bad there's nothing wrong
00:33:31
with a sales pitch per se but with
00:33:34
annuities the problem is that probably
00:33:36
about 99% of annuities are raw deals for
00:33:40
the investors in them and also about 99%
00:33:43
of annuities are are sold in other words
00:33:45
they're pushed instead of being bought
00:33:47
or sought after by the investor by the
00:33:49
consumer so when we have mostly bad
00:33:52
products which are mostly being pushed
00:33:55
or sold via Shady or airor ridden sales
00:33:58
tactics when I hear a sales tactic like
00:34:00
ooh an annuity is like a paycheck in
00:34:02
your retirement my my alarm Bells go up
00:34:04
a little bit so that all being said I've
00:34:07
kind of painted a bad picture of annuity
00:34:09
so far and I think they deserve to have
00:34:10
a bad picture painted of them but I also
00:34:13
think it's interesting to approach the
00:34:14
problem from the Steelman point of view
00:34:17
so to speak right you've heard of straw
00:34:19
Manning straw Manning is where you build
00:34:21
up an argument in a kind of a less than
00:34:23
ideal way and then you tear that
00:34:25
argument down steel Manning is the
00:34:27
opposite where where you intentionally
00:34:29
force yourself to make good Arguments
00:34:31
for something even if it's something
00:34:32
that you disagree with so even though I
00:34:34
disagree with annuities for the most
00:34:36
part and and what they represent I'm
00:34:38
going to paint you an ideal picture
00:34:40
right now of annuities and so let's
00:34:42
assume that all annuities out there have
00:34:45
absolutely zero fees associated with
00:34:46
them great they're completely free
00:34:48
products maybe they're sponsored by the
00:34:50
government or something like that how
00:34:52
exactly would that work imagine we have
00:34:54
100 people who buy my free annuities
00:34:57
each person uses a million dollarss to
00:34:59
buy their annuity and then they
00:35:01
immediately start to receive a monthly
00:35:02
payout from the annuity just like the
00:35:04
paycheck that Amy referred to in our
00:35:06
question so now we have this pot 100
00:35:08
people put a million dollars each we
00:35:10
have a pot of $100 million which is
00:35:12
sending out 100 paychecks every single
00:35:14
month now this is my hypothetical so
00:35:16
we're going to continue down this path
00:35:18
of it being a perfect Ideal World and
00:35:20
the question is does this pot of money
00:35:22
have any risks associated with it and it
00:35:25
does the main risk for the pot of money
00:35:28
essentially for the annuity company
00:35:30
itself is that too many of the 100
00:35:32
people live too long and thus I'm
00:35:35
sending out too many paychecks over
00:35:37
their lives and the hundred million pot
00:35:39
essentially runs out and that problem is
00:35:42
why annuities are run by insurance
00:35:44
companies the the the problem is well
00:35:47
when are these people going to die it's
00:35:48
hard to know when a single person is
00:35:50
going to die but when you group many
00:35:52
many people together hundreds thousands
00:35:54
tens of thousands even more and you get
00:35:56
a large data set a large population well
00:35:59
you can use Actuarial math to find the
00:36:02
probabilities and the averages of how
00:36:04
many people are going to live a certain
00:36:06
amount of time that is the fundamental
00:36:08
mathematical problem that all life
00:36:10
insurance companies need to answer the
00:36:12
cost of say a life insurance policy it
00:36:15
has to be based on the probability of a
00:36:17
person dying based on their age their
00:36:19
gender their health their habits all
00:36:21
that kind of stuff and similarly the
00:36:23
promised monthly payout of an annuity
00:36:26
also has to be based on the probability
00:36:28
of a person dying now with term life
00:36:31
insurance let's compare life insurance
00:36:33
to an annuity because they're very
00:36:34
similar in some ways but they're kind of
00:36:36
the opposite side of the coin in other
00:36:38
ways we'll start with life insurance
00:36:40
with term life insurance if you die
00:36:41
early your beneficiary will receive much
00:36:44
more in a lump sum than you ever paid in
00:36:47
in premiums but if you don't die early
00:36:50
and the policy lapses you and your
00:36:52
beneficiary will receive zero payout
00:36:54
despite all the premiums you paid that
00:36:57
is the probabilistic wager when buying
00:36:59
term life insurance all the people who
00:37:01
survive they pay all these premiums in
00:37:04
and the people who die they get the lump
00:37:06
sums or their beneficiaries get the lump
00:37:08
sums going out now the benefit of the
00:37:11
security both Financial Security and
00:37:13
emotional security of having term life
00:37:16
insurance that benefit comes with a
00:37:17
price and with term life insurance that
00:37:20
price is usually appropriate and well
00:37:22
worth paying right most of us most of
00:37:24
the time are saying yeah I'm going to
00:37:26
buy term life insurance for the the next
00:37:27
30 Years I understand I'm going to be
00:37:29
paying a a monthly premium and I kind of
00:37:32
want to survive so I'm actually hoping
00:37:35
that I put all this money into the term
00:37:36
life insurance policy and I'm hoping I
00:37:39
never pull anything back out I hope that
00:37:41
it's a quote unquote waste of money
00:37:43
because on the off chance that I get hit
00:37:45
by a bus I want to have that security
00:37:48
for my family I want the financial
00:37:50
security and I want to have the
00:37:51
emotional security that allows me to
00:37:53
sleep at night while I am living because
00:37:55
I know they'll be taken care of so
00:37:57
that's ter life insurance now with an
00:37:58
annuity if you die late then you will
00:38:02
have received much more in monthly
00:38:04
payouts than you paid up front it's the
00:38:06
opposite of the term policy term life
00:38:08
insurance if you die early you get more
00:38:10
than your fair share well with an
00:38:12
annuity if you die late you get more
00:38:15
than your fair share but if with an
00:38:17
annuity if you die early then you'll
00:38:19
likely receive much less in payouts than
00:38:21
you paid upfront so while term life
00:38:24
insurance protects against an early
00:38:26
death annuities protect against a late
00:38:28
death that's why they're sometimes
00:38:30
called Longevity insurance it's an
00:38:32
insurance against the fact that you
00:38:34
might live until you're 95 or 100 and if
00:38:37
annuities were free or low cost like in
00:38:39
my ideal world then the benefit of
00:38:41
having that longevity insurance would
00:38:43
likely be appropriate and well worth
00:38:45
paying right if we're all putting our
00:38:47
money into this annuity pool together
00:38:49
with the understanding that some of us
00:38:51
are going to die early and others are
00:38:53
going to die late and we're all sharing
00:38:55
the risk and we know that some people
00:38:57
might benefit more than others but we're
00:38:58
okay with it because the costs are
00:39:00
really low okay that seems like a
00:39:02
reasonably fair deal but I have reviewed
00:39:05
annuities for many clients who came to
00:39:07
work with us they weren't happy with
00:39:09
their annuities they wanted to work
00:39:10
instead with a the only a fiduciary a
00:39:13
planning heavy team a traditional
00:39:16
investing firm and those annuities that
00:39:19
I've seen the the statements and and the
00:39:20
policies with my my own two eyes the
00:39:23
fees are often in the the 2 to 3% range
00:39:25
per year traditional Stock Investing you
00:39:28
you can build a portfolio of stocks and
00:39:29
bonds in the tenths of a percent range
00:39:32
and these annuities had fees 25 or 30 or
00:39:35
hundreds of times greater than that and
00:39:37
then the annuities some of which do have
00:39:40
an underlying investment product tied to
00:39:42
them I mean there's a million different
00:39:44
types of annuities and we're not going
00:39:45
to get into that here but the growth
00:39:47
rates on the annuities that I've seen
00:39:49
tended to be under 2% or under 3% per
00:39:52
year even over the past 15 years which
00:39:54
was one of the best periods for public
00:39:56
market investors in history
00:39:58
so in other words these were not
00:40:00
appropriately priced products and
00:40:02
they're certainly not a product in terms
00:40:03
of growth that you want to have all of
00:40:06
your assets in and because of that even
00:40:08
when you look at the payout structure of
00:40:09
someone who gets lucky with their
00:40:11
annuity and lives for a ridiculously
00:40:13
long time someone who has 50 or 60 years
00:40:16
worth of annuity payments or even
00:40:18
something unrealistic someone who has a
00:40:20
100 years worth of annuitized payments
00:40:22
you can calculate the return on
00:40:24
investment of that annuity so if I give
00:40:27
give you a million dollar today and then
00:40:29
I wait 10 years because that is the way
00:40:31
a lot of annuities work for what it's
00:40:32
worth there's a delay between when you
00:40:34
put the money in when you can start to
00:40:36
take the money out so I give you a
00:40:38
million dollars today and then I wait 10
00:40:40
years and then you have to start paying
00:40:42
me $10,000 a month for the next 50 years
00:40:46
$10,000 a month on a million dollar
00:40:48
investment I mean that's 1% a month
00:40:50
that's a 12% per year annual return for
00:40:53
the next 50 years and I can look at that
00:40:55
and say what's my return on invest
00:40:57
for what it's worth that's a very
00:40:59
typical type of promised return from
00:41:01
this type of annuity it's simple in
00:41:03
Microsoft Excel to do what's called an
00:41:05
internal rate of return or irr it's a
00:41:07
problem that is very easily solved and
00:41:10
you might be thinking well yeah okay 1%
00:41:12
per month a 12% annual return that's
00:41:14
huge but it only kicks in after the
00:41:17
first 10 years and meanwhile the $1
00:41:19
million original investment it's locked
00:41:21
up it's ill liquid just some basic off
00:41:24
the top of the head math it'll take 9
00:41:26
years of payments of $120,000 per year
00:41:29
for us to get our $1 million back so
00:41:32
after 10 years of nothing it then takes
00:41:34
another 9 years for us to get our money
00:41:36
back in other words our internal rate of
00:41:39
return our irr it's negative for the
00:41:42
first 18 years of that investment a
00:41:45
negative return for the first 18 years
00:41:47
of the investment not ideal so let's
00:41:48
keep going after 25 total years that's
00:41:51
10 years of waiting plus 15 years of
00:41:53
payment our irr does increase it's now
00:41:56
positive thankfully and it's 3.6% per
00:41:58
year again 25 years 3.6% per year return
00:42:03
after 40 years our IR is about
00:42:06
5.9% and if we go out to Infinity you
00:42:09
know the irr curve eventually flattens
00:42:11
out it reaches a a local limit and if we
00:42:14
have an annuity for an infinite number
00:42:15
of years our irr Max is out at about
00:42:19
6.7% so just to be clear do I want to
00:42:21
pursue an investment that is il liquid
00:42:24
has a negative rate of return for the
00:42:25
first 18 years of its life
00:42:27
and if I literally held it forever would
00:42:29
max out at a 6.7% rate of return to me
00:42:33
that is not what I'm going after in the
00:42:35
investment universe and if I have to pay
00:42:37
a 2% fee on top of that because this was
00:42:39
a feess annuity so if I have to pay a 2%
00:42:42
fee on top of that it's a non-starter so
00:42:45
now let's pivot there are a class of
00:42:47
annuities that Jonathan Clemens
00:42:49
mentioned here on the best interest
00:42:50
podcast in episode 82 that work a little
00:42:52
bit differently in fact they work so
00:42:54
much differently that Jonathan is is
00:42:56
using one in his own retirement plan
00:42:58
it's a super simple generally low fee
00:43:01
type of annuity and therefore because
00:43:03
it's low fee and has a low commission
00:43:05
it's not pushed by Insurance salespeople
00:43:08
and so far so good that's what we want
00:43:10
this type of annuity goes by a few
00:43:12
different names but you'll often hear
00:43:13
the words immediate and fixed involved
00:43:17
in the titles of these annuities
00:43:18
something like an immediate fixed
00:43:20
lifetime annuity the immediate means
00:43:23
there's no waiting period to start your
00:43:25
monthly collection and the fixed portion
00:43:27
means that your returns are not based on
00:43:29
market performance unlike the far more
00:43:32
common variable annuities which are
00:43:34
based on market performance so immediate
00:43:36
fixed annuities is what we're looking
00:43:38
after here so I went to the Schwab
00:43:40
website and I got some numbers on their
00:43:42
immediate fixed annuities I assumed it
00:43:44
was a $1 million annuity for in this
00:43:47
example I decided to use a 64y old man
00:43:50
64y old man seems like a reasonable age
00:43:53
and type of person who would be looking
00:43:54
for an immediate fixed annuity Schwab
00:43:57
would start paying this man
00:43:59
$73,000 per year right away so let's
00:44:02
plug this into Microsoft Excel let's do
00:44:04
our internal rate of return our irr it
00:44:07
takes 14 years for this guy to get his
00:44:09
money back so for the first 13 years
00:44:12
he's got a negative IR if the guy lives
00:44:15
to 84 which right 20 years of payment
00:44:17
his irr will be
00:44:19
4.5% if he lives to 90 with 26 years of
00:44:23
payment his irr jumps to 6.1% if he
00:44:26
lives to 100 years old his irr will be
00:44:30
7.2% again an annuity is longevity
00:44:33
insurance if you die early you probably
00:44:36
shouldn't expect for something called
00:44:38
Longevity Insurance to work in your
00:44:40
favor that's just the way it is but if
00:44:42
you do live to 100 which was 36 years of
00:44:45
life for this uh 64y old guy if you do
00:44:48
live to 100 is an annual rate of return
00:44:51
of 7.2% what you're looking for now my
00:44:54
honest answer is I kind of want to think
00:44:56
about it some more I'm interested to
00:44:57
know what you guys think because on the
00:44:59
one hand you could say well a 30-year
00:45:01
Bond right now is only returning 4.5%
00:45:04
per year so 7.2% sounds pretty good but
00:45:08
if I die early with a million dollars in
00:45:10
bonds I will get to pass that million
00:45:12
dollar onto my wife so she can use it
00:45:15
it's an asset that I can pass on but if
00:45:17
I die early with a million dollars in
00:45:19
immediate annuity I cannot pass those
00:45:22
dollars on to my family the money is
00:45:24
essentially gobbled up by the insurance
00:45:26
company because they have to cover the
00:45:28
risk of other people living longer that
00:45:31
is just how Insurance pools work and of
00:45:34
course many people hate this idea
00:45:36
understandably so and insurance
00:45:38
companies understand that so they do
00:45:40
offer immediate fixed annuities with a
00:45:42
Survivor benefit but nothing is free so
00:45:45
in that case the rate of return on the
00:45:47
annuity is lowered and not only is the
00:45:50
rate of return of the unity lowered but
00:45:52
the most your beneficiaries can receive
00:45:54
is the amount of your original lump sum
00:45:56
min is the amount of benefits you've
00:45:58
been given they give you your million
00:46:00
dollars back minus any payouts which I
00:46:02
think is relatively understandable but
00:46:05
why do I need an insurance company to do
00:46:06
that for me when a well-constructed
00:46:08
Investment Portfolio does the same thing
00:46:11
in my opinion but better with higher
00:46:14
long-term returns with lower fees with
00:46:17
more liquidity with more flexibility and
00:46:20
with a return on investment starting
00:46:22
from day one right I don't have to wait
00:46:23
14 years to have a positive return on
00:46:25
investment and and there's just an
00:46:27
easier inheritance plan for my heirs I
00:46:29
just get to pass the assets on to them I
00:46:31
don't have to wait for a check from an
00:46:33
insurance company so I don't see the
00:46:35
appeal of annuities necessarily even
00:46:37
when they are put in the best light
00:46:40
maybe there's a corner case where it's
00:46:41
the right tool for the right person but
00:46:43
I think those cases are are relatively
00:46:46
few and far between and to me the
00:46:48
benefits of a traditional and even a
00:46:50
conservative Investment Portfolio it's
00:46:53
better early on than the annuity and
00:46:56
it's better later on than the annuity so
00:46:58
I just don't see the appeal but Amy
00:47:00
thank you for the terrific question
00:47:02
because I think it it spawned a very
00:47:03
interesting answer and it allowed me to
00:47:05
dive deep on a topic that I haven't gone
00:47:07
too deep on before so that's it for
00:47:09
today everybody thank you for all the
00:47:11
great questions to those of you who have
00:47:13
written in I am keeping a very active
00:47:15
spreadsheet list of all the AMA
00:47:17
questions that come in and I'll do my
00:47:19
best to touch them all or to get to them
00:47:21
all if there comes a point when it's
00:47:23
just too much and too overwhelming and I
00:47:24
can't put out enough AMA episodes Maybe
00:47:26
just have to trim to the best ones but
00:47:28
keep them coming you can send your AMA
00:47:30
questions email them please to Jesse
00:47:33
bestin interest. blog and as always
00:47:35
thank you for listening to the best
00:47:37
interest
00:47:38
[Music]
00:47:40
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00:47:42
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00:47:44
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00:47:46
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00:47:49
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00:47:52
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00:47:55
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00:48:18
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00:48:21
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