00:00:00
I don't think that your presidential chances are related to your social media clout.
00:00:05
Yeah, though he does look good. A stride an eagle with a chest. He does look good.
00:00:16
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser. Welcome back
00:00:22
to Scott August. [Music]
00:00:29
Scott is still away, so I have yet another fantastic co-host, Abby Phillip, the anchor of CNN's News Night with Abby
00:00:36
Phillip. Abby, welcome. I am so honored to be here when Scott is not around.
00:00:41
I know we can do all kinds of naughty things. Just I don't know if you listen to Rachel last week, but this last week,
00:00:46
but we can do whatever we want. It was very It was great. Yeah. You also get a little break
00:00:52
because you're usually the host. Yours is the wrangler, so I will wrangle you if you don't mind. Great.
00:00:57
Yeah. So, I know you're um I want to talk a little bit on a couple things you're up to. Um one is your show. Your
00:01:04
show, which has been very successful, incredibly busy, as I said, wrangling and sometimes wrestling to the ground, all sorts of personalities on your five
00:01:10
nights a week show this week. Incredibly, you have a lot of viral moments. It's usually with Scott
00:01:16
Jennings. We're not getting into Scott Jennings here, but I have to say the Jillian Michaels thing um really took
00:01:21
off this week. Um, I'm gonna play the the exchange um that she had and how you
00:01:27
dealt with her. Let's listen. He forgives. He's not whitewashing slavery. So, he's not he's not. No, he's he's not.
00:01:34
And you cannot tie imperialism and racism and slavery to just one race,
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which is pretty much what every single exhibit does. But let's talk about the fact that when you anti
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slavery in America was supremac less than 2% of white Americans own slaves but it was a system of white supremacy
00:01:53
slavery is thousands of years old white people were slave owners and the first race techro
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I'm very surprised in historical revisionism I'm really racism do you realize
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Jillian I'm surprised that you're trying to litigate um who was the beneficiary
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of slavery and Okay, you handled that really well. I don't know how you jumped in there, but
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that was nuts what she was saying in my opinion. It I mean it it was wild. I look,
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everybody was shocked. It it was unexpected to be frank because we were not really in a
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discussion about that at the table when she just brings it up. And um you know,
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my philosophy about the show, first of all, I I think I've I've seen some people questioning why was she even
00:02:40
there? She's a fitness guru. All of that. I believe text to do that. Well, no, no, not just you, but a lot of
00:02:46
people have said that. I'm just saying I I get it. Um I understand that there
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are some characters in our politics today who are like, "How did this person even get here?" But the truth is is that she represents
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that point of view. And um and and just like we have um not that I'm comparing
00:03:10
the two, but we have comedians and actors, we have Roywood Jr. come on, we have Wendell Pierce, we have people who
00:03:17
are not Washington voices come on and share their views. Um Jillian Michaels has views that
00:03:25
represent about half the country. So there's that. The second thing is that
00:03:31
you heard me there not really weighing in when she started talking. there were other guests weighing in and and part of
00:03:36
it was because I was literally listening to her trying to understand what the heck she was talking about. Um, and then
00:03:42
when it became clear that that she was trying to sort of downplay slavery, I was just like shocked like are you
00:03:48
really going to do this on national television, giving her an opportunity to not do it? But she continued on and and
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then later on she said that she got this list of talking points from the White
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House about exhibits that they wanted to dispute and frankly it's it was pretty
00:04:06
ignorant. I look I don't like to talk about negatively about guests who come on the show because I just don't think that's
00:04:12
good form. Um even when I disagree with people I respect their right to uh
00:04:18
embarrass themselves on national television. I think it it it is their right to do that.
00:04:23
But I and I don't want to um I don't want to disparrage people even when they disparage me to be quite frank online.
00:04:30
But I but I'll just state as a factual matter what I told her which is that um it is nonsensical to suggest that
00:04:37
slavery in the United States was something was about something other than race. A. And B um even this idea that 2%
00:04:44
of white people own slaves. That that is such a ridiculous point because you don't have to own slaves to enforce
00:04:51
white supremacy and slavery to benefit from it uh to gain generational wealth
00:04:56
as a result of it. And um and the percentage of Americans where slavery
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was lawful who had slaves or participated in slavery is much larger
00:05:07
than 2%. So it's completely disingenuous. This whole thing is ridiculous. I It's embarrassing
00:05:13
more for her than anything else. Yeah. But um but but look, I I also, you know,
00:05:19
I'm I've been on this earth long enough that I know many people believe this. I have not that was not the first time
00:05:25
that I had heard that argument. Me neither. Okay. I've heard it from her. You've heard it, right? So we've heard this before. So let's be honest, like
00:05:32
people believe this stuff, right? And don't be shocked when they come out and say it on national television.
00:05:37
Yeah, that was a really smart thing you said. You're trying to litigate who was the beneficiary. You were very evenhanded but also smart-minded. talk a
00:05:45
little bit about how you do that, how you think about what your job is there. I I'm never bringing people on to say
00:05:51
crazy things. Let's be frank about that. That is never the intention, okay? People's decisions to say crazy things
00:05:58
are never expected or predictable. Um, however, I mean, and I know that that
00:06:04
folks um really dislike Scott for his his views, but but I would say that, um,
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you know, there are views that you don't like, that you think are unfounded, um,
00:06:19
but that are pretty widely shared. And I think Scott falls into that category.
00:06:25
Now, there are definitely times if you watch the show, um, that we have
00:06:30
conversations where I will say to Scott and others, just stop because we're not
00:06:37
playing whatever game it is that you want to play in this moment. Just so we're going to clarify, by the
00:06:42
way, we're talking about your Scott, not our Scott. Just not your Yeah. Which is a point of major
00:06:48
confusion between us, Cara, all the time. You will say, "Oh, I did this thing with Scott." And I'm like, "You did? I
00:06:54
thought you Yes, off screen Jennings and I are really we play pickle ball together. We
00:07:01
do not That would be good though. I would beat him. But I do think that what I what I try to
00:07:08
say is if if I if I detect that what you're doing is playing a game of um let
00:07:16
me say something that I think is going to go viral. Let me misrepresent what's being said here to try to create a
00:07:22
moment. I will stop that. Yeah, you did that in Gaza. Who was that? There was
00:07:27
one in I mean I Scott was involved in that one. I mean Scott is often involved in those
00:07:32
moments when I say no, we're we're stopping. And um and I think that there
00:07:40
there are guard rails, but I also think it's, you know, this is an imperfect
00:07:45
exercise, right? So what you think is what you think should be a guardrail, I may not think should be a guardrail. I
00:07:50
try to give people a decent amount of leeway to express their points of view,
00:07:56
liberal and conservative. And I will tell you that there are times when many times, frankly, when liberals
00:08:03
cross a line. Yes. And um and and again, the same leeway that I
00:08:08
give to the conservative guests, I give to the liberal guests to express themselves. But there are times when I have to I
00:08:13
have to stop things to keep things on the rails to, you know, we don't want to liel people on television. We don't want
00:08:18
to we I I don't like the personal attacks which actually do happen more than I would like them to.
00:08:24
Um so you know I again but I think the the bottom line is
00:08:30
there's an acknowledgement of the imperfection of this right. This is a conversation.
00:08:35
Oh I think you handle it. Sometimes I want to send you a bottle of tequila. I mean sometimes I need I can see the
00:08:42
exasperated look on I couldn't do it. I would sometimes I need it. I mean there are look I there are there times when I'm
00:08:48
like that was absolutely ridiculous. Mhm. Abs totally totally and but um but
00:08:55
somebody's got to do it. Yeah. And somebody's got to do it. Um so so last question on this. When you
00:09:01
think about shows like this and the sort of the partisanship, one of the things I remember you and I talked about was
00:09:07
breaking having real discussions and breaking partisans. And you think it's gotten not necessarily on your show, but
00:09:13
worse or better, or how do you look at sort of the landscape and what you're trying to do here in in general in this
00:09:20
country? I don't think that we're solving the issue of partisanship on our show by any
00:09:25
stretch of the imagination. I think what we are doing is um creating a platform for us to really be honest about what
00:09:32
the contours of the debate really are. And one thing that I've grown to really
00:09:37
have very little tolerance for, just personally, I just find it to be boring,
00:09:42
but also a little bit disingenuous, is when we have partisans kind of talking past each other,
00:09:48
right? Where they're sort of like, you know, they're kind of like on parallel roads and they never really intersect.
00:09:53
And I just I don't think that that really is a accurate reflection of where the country is. So, we're in a a
00:10:00
hyperartisan moment. And do I think it's getting better? Not really. But do I
00:10:06
think that we need to better understand where we kind of agree and disagree?
00:10:12
Yes. And the only way to do that is to really take that on head on. And I like that what we do is actually we get into
00:10:19
the nitty-gritty about what it says about us
00:10:24
that some people, you know, everything that Trump does they love. Some people
00:10:31
think that it's the dawn of fascism and I think that we have those values debates and those conversations are
00:10:39
important to look we have to understand our neighbors cuz these are people that we know right like actually more more of
00:10:48
your neighbors than you think than you think probably voted for or supported Trump
00:10:54
and I think we need to understand them a little bit better but we also need to have a little bit more honesty about what it says about our um democracy, our
00:11:02
values as individuals and as a community that we want certain things for our country or we don't. So that's what I
00:11:12
think we we are doing. I I think when wrestling metaphors are used, I don't love that, right? Like the
00:11:17
idea of wrestling because then it's a game, then it's the game. I mean, I think that's the difficult part that you
00:11:23
face. I I don't I don't uh envy you in that regard. But let me ask you about
00:11:28
something else you're working on. you have a book coming out in October and it's sort of in that genre. It's um it's called A Dream Defer Jesse Jackson and
00:11:35
the Fight for Black Political Power. It focuses on Jackson's presidential runs in 1984 and 1988. Um I I'm surprised
00:11:42
this is your first book for some reason. I would imagine you have written books before, but um why did you want to write
00:11:47
about Jesse Jackson who is he's not gone from our our history, but in a way he
00:11:54
is. He was such a he was such an enormous figure for so long. um at least in my political upbringing um
00:12:01
you know Jesse Jackson was a permanent figure in politics. Talk a little bit about what you've learned and what will
00:12:08
people be surprised to learn. I think it's exactly for the reason that you just laid out that I decided to write
00:12:16
this book because he is both this everpresent seemingly everpresent figure
00:12:22
in our understanding of the world and also somebody that has
00:12:28
kind of faded from memory in recent years especially and I don't think has
00:12:34
really ever been well understood. And I thought that um there had been it there
00:12:42
had been so many years that had passed since there was a real kind of comprehensive book about Jesse Jackson.
00:12:47
The last one was in the mid '90s. Oh wow. And so since then, as you can imagine, a
00:12:53
lot has happened with him, with our politics. There was the Barack Obama of it all. There was
00:12:59
the Donald Trump of it all. Um Joe Biden of it all. And all of those those events
00:13:06
that have occurred since then I think actually need it it forced a re forces a
00:13:14
reframing of Jesse Jackson's legacy and that's what this book is about is really just to understand what let's really
00:13:20
look back now that he is in his 80s um he as you know know is suffering from
00:13:26
Parkinson's disease I think is not really um in a position to be a participant in the framing of his own
00:13:33
legacy And so let's you honestly couldn't talk to him.
00:13:39
Correct. I did talk to him actually quite a you know I started working on this book and right as co was happening in 2020 and I
00:13:47
went to Chicago. He's had Parkinson's then but he could still talk and we had a lengthy interview and we've talked a
00:13:53
lot over the years sometimes about the book sometimes not. Um increasingly he
00:13:58
has not been able to speak. So I was able to talk to him in just enough when he was verbal. Um,
00:14:06
and so he has Parkinson's but not dementia. Correct. Or he Yes, he has Parkinson's
00:14:15
but not dementia as far as I know. I don't want to speak too much about his medical diagnosis because I don't I'm not fully read in on the latest on that.
00:14:23
But but as of right now, he has a lot of difficulty speaking. And that was beginning, you know, 5 years ago when I
00:14:30
first started talking to him about this book. So, one of the things about Jesse Jackson is
00:14:37
that a lot of people don't even remember if you didn't live through it, that first of all, he was insanely famous. He
00:14:46
was like he was a level of fame that people compared to Michael Jackson and
00:14:52
to you know these massive celebrities. It too he was a black man who grew up in
00:14:58
the segregated South who um really kind of came from a very
00:15:05
not wellto-do family. I mean he his his mother um he his father was his next
00:15:12
door neighbor and his mother became pregnant with him when she was unmarried and um and the his biological father had
00:15:20
a whole other family. So he his improbable rise I think was part of the story but I mean he was also the
00:15:27
celebrity candidate before Donald Trump was a celebrity candidate. He was and had a long political history before
00:15:33
that. Yeah, he was a populist candidate before Bernie Sanders was a populist
00:15:40
candidate. He was um he
00:15:45
ran came in second place in the 1988 campaign before Barack Obama became the
00:15:51
nominee. And had he not won concessions from the Democratic party to change the rules of how you nominate uh candidates,
00:15:59
Barack Obama probably would not have been the nominee in 2008. So there are
00:16:04
so many aspects of his legacy that I think just are not very well understood.
00:16:11
I think he is a very complicated figure which makes made writing this book very
00:16:16
interesting because it's a lot of good things and bad things. like personality traits that we see in politicians,
00:16:23
arrogance, um, narcissism, grandiosity, you know,
00:16:28
um, all of that incredible eloquence along with um,
00:16:34
you know, just they're they're tied together. The good and the bad are very much tied together. But I think
00:16:40
fundamentally um his story of running two presidential campaigns at a time when the Ku Klux
00:16:46
Clan was still running rallies in Georgia is incredible. Yeah, it it's an incredible story.
00:16:53
Yeah. And what made you I'm just very briefly because I want to get to other stuff, but what made you um want to do
00:17:01
cover him? I think that um I I would I would just
00:17:06
start by saying I wasn't really jazzed about writing a book just in general because I
00:17:11
I'm not the type of Some people are like I was born to write a book. I need my name on a book. I'm not one of those
00:17:16
people. I was like if I have something to say I will say it. I don't really want to write a book just for the sake of
00:17:22
writing a book. But I did I was convinced um a little bit frankly from
00:17:28
my agent to that there was some responsibility that I had as a
00:17:34
journalist, a woman, a black woman journalist in this moment to participate in the telling of history. And um and I
00:17:44
think as a political journalist, I wanted to choose um a political figure whose story was not that well
00:17:50
understood. And and I think Jesse Jackson's story was I realized as I was researching it was not terribly well
00:17:57
understood but super relevant in this moment of you know rising economic
00:18:02
populism of um questions about what whether or not the Democratic Party
00:18:08
should have a coalition that is actually diverse that represents you know black
00:18:13
people, white people, Asian people, Native American people, LGBTQ people, all of that. He was the person who
00:18:19
really explicitly said that is what the party should look like and that is why the Democratic party looks like that
00:18:25
right now. So I felt like okay yeah I do have a responsibility to tell
00:18:30
these stories and to tell it um with an understanding of the community that he spoke to which
00:18:36
is black Americans. realize that
00:18:42
he was always through the lens of journalists who discounted him, who um
00:18:48
who minimized him, who did not understand his appeal among black Americans, who largely saw him as a
00:18:55
heroic figure, who saw him as a kind of um manifestation of their dreams and
00:19:01
their aspirations. And I think that was never fully represented in the media.
00:19:07
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, of course, his involvement with Martin Luther King and the Southern uh
00:19:13
uh Christian Leadership Conference was also important, but he was really one of the first I remember being struck by um
00:19:20
his um talking about economic issues over even though he's think thought of as a racial figure, you know, I mean,
00:19:26
like that kind of thing. The way he was portrayed, he had one quote um and I'm going to read I found it. when we change
00:19:32
the race problem into a class fight between the halves and have nots, then we're going to have a new ball game. I
00:19:37
mean, I think he clocked that. Same thing with Sanders. Same thing with a lot, you know, in AOC in some ways. I
00:19:43
mean, that's and and Mumani really in a lot of ways. I mean, people misrepresent
00:19:48
him as this person who's like all about race, but when you look at his actual campaigns, he was actually arguing that
00:19:55
the real commonality between people should be their interests, their class
00:20:00
interests, their economic interests. He was rallying farmers in Missouri and in rural states and in Iowa um on the basis
00:20:08
of what we have in common is our need to be treated fairly economically. That was
00:20:16
the basis of his campaign, not a racial appeal, which is contra how he was con
00:20:22
conveyed to the public during his campaigns, right? Because he did suffer from ego,
00:20:27
you know, and look at me, you know, everything he did was sort of and he was fantastic looking person, right? He wanted to look at him um in a lot of
00:20:34
ways, but an important figure. I'm excited. We we'll talk about it more on on when it comes out um hopefully a longer interview about it. Um, but we've
00:20:41
got a lot to get to today, including Gavin Newsome trolling Trump and the Costco abortion pill controversy, among
00:20:46
other things. But first, President Trump is set to meet Ukraine's President Zalinsky and European leaders of the White House, as we record on Monday.
00:20:53
This follows Trump's summit with Putin in Alaska on Friday, where he rolled out the red carpet, but no deal was made.
00:21:00
Trump seems to be siding with Putin right now after going in not siding with him, saying over the weekend the best way to end the war is to go directly to
00:21:06
a peace agreement, not negotiate a ceasefire, which he was talking about. He's also telling Ukraine to give up on
00:21:11
getting back Russia annex Crimea or joining NATO. Um you were part of CNN's
00:21:16
live coverage of the Alaska summit. I just loved your thoughts and the last time Zinsky was in the White House
00:21:22
things got pretty ugly. Vance kind of trolled him. Um he's bringing backup this time um and others. Uh he may wear
00:21:29
a suit which is so innane but there you have it. They were making comments about his outfit which was a military outfit.
00:21:35
Um, talk to me a little bit about this. Even though it it's going to go by the time we do, but how are you going into
00:21:41
this? How do you look at it? Especially from the Alaska summit. I think it's extraordinary that this is
00:21:47
even happening. I mean, think about the fact that you have a a fall of European
00:21:52
leaders getting on planes at a moment's notice to flock to Washington to give
00:21:58
Zalinsky backup in this meeting with Trump. That's a level of concern that I think
00:22:04
some people say hasn't been demonstrated since 9/11. Um, and it reflects a deep worry about
00:22:13
Trump's decision-m and his need to be surrounded by a certain point of view in
00:22:21
order to come to what they view as the right conclusion. So, so I think that alone, I mean, says a lot. And I I think
00:22:30
that, you know, I said this on Friday. I mean, Trump
00:22:35
really believes that he can get Putin to the desired outcome by simply treating
00:22:42
him right, by giving him the red carpet, by giving him, you know, the military
00:22:49
welcome, by the smiles, the round of applause, all of that, which is what he wants.
00:22:56
right, which would work for him. But Putin doesn't really care about those things.
00:23:01
He wants what he wants in the interest of Russian Empire, which is what he wants to reestablish. And so I I still
00:23:09
think we don't know terribly much about what was talked about and
00:23:15
decided. There was some talk of security guarantees that do not involve NATO. So
00:23:20
the obvious question is what does that really look like? But I think that the devil is 100 1,000% in the details here,
00:23:28
which is not Trump's strong suit. Not exactly. I I do think that's the problem is that Putin is worried about
00:23:34
the details. Trump not so much. And the the details also become insanely
00:23:40
important to Ukraine because they have been in a situation before where they've been given security guarantees and it's
00:23:46
just they've still been bulldozed as a result of it. Putin also wants to divide
00:23:51
the United States and Europe. So it is also in Putin's interest to disentangle Ukraine's security from Europe and NATO.
00:24:01
And so it it does work in Putin's favor to say, well, we'll give you security guarantees, but it's not going to involve NATO. So will that fly?
00:24:10
Something tells me no, it will not because that because he will he will say we'll do it and then won't do it, right? Won't send
00:24:16
US troops approaching. Exactly. Exactly. I also just wonder, I mean, how does the America First crowd
00:24:22
feel about Trump giving security guarantees unilaterally perhaps? Like, are we going
00:24:30
to be sending troops? Right. That's the thing if Russia invades because that's literally the thing that that the
00:24:36
America first crowd said that they did not want. So I I think that um there are a lot of
00:24:44
words being spoken right now, but you know, time will tell. I mean, I
00:24:50
think it's very important. What was your takeaway from the summit itself? Obviously, the Trump people were trying to spin it as something positive,
00:24:55
but nobody is. There's not even coverage even on I think it was not much. It was
00:25:02
much to do about nothing. And that was that was told by the way that they came
00:25:07
out of the meeting. They they came out of the meeting, they said almost nothing. Um there was there was no sort
00:25:15
of paper. There was no joint agreement. Nei Putin and Trump were saying different things. Then over the weekend,
00:25:22
you had Marco Rubio also downplaying it, saying, "Hey, we have a long way to go,
00:25:27
right?" And and the ceasefire thing is super important. Putin wants to continue to pummel
00:25:34
Ukraine, right, while he spins his wheels on an end to the war. And that's what Trump is
00:25:41
allowing him to get, right? So why the wheel?
00:25:48
Because that's what Putin wants. Mhm. But why Trump's shift in that in that meeting? Nobody knows.
00:25:55
Right. But you know the readout from the call with Silinski seemed to point to
00:26:02
what is happening here is that Putin is convincing Trump of a particular
00:26:08
military out um reality on the ground that Zillinsky disputes which is that
00:26:13
they're winning right and Zalinsky disputes that. And my question is Trump has a whole military and a national
00:26:20
security apparatus and an intelligence apparatus who he can ask
00:26:25
about what is happening on the ground. So, I am confused about why Trump would
00:26:32
not ask those experts about what's happening and not take Putin's word for it and why he would regurgitate Putin's
00:26:39
view of the war to Zalinski without filtering it through what we know to be
00:26:45
true about what's happening on the ground. It still reminds you of the hold that Putin has on Trump, you know, over and
00:26:50
over again. we seem to get the same result every time he walks in a room with him and comes out he comes out
00:26:55
different as if his brain has been fried or something. I think Trump is super impressed by the
00:27:01
way Cara by Putin. That's I think that's a big part of it there. He's just very impressed by him. He thinks that he's
00:27:06
got it figured out that he's he's arranged Russian society in a way that he admires.
00:27:12
He I think Trump really just thinks Putin is doing it better than anybody else. Right. and um he's not concerned about
00:27:19
the moral quandry of Putin killing dissident and perhaps doing war crimes and all of that
00:27:25
stuff. It's it's an admiration at at the heart of it and he doesn't admire someone like
00:27:31
Zalinsky. Um by the way, first lady Melania Trump entered the chat oddly. She wrote what's being called a peace
00:27:37
letter to Putin that Trump handd delivered at the summit. In the letter she tells Putin it's time to protect children and says he can single-handedly
00:27:43
restore their uh melodic laughter. It was a strange letter, but I see her point. Some people are wondering if the
00:27:49
letter was AI generated. They don't know. Um, it's about the children that Russia has taken from Ukraine and are
00:27:55
bringing to Russia. It's really quite a heinous act on behalf of uh of uh of the
00:28:01
Russians. Um, any thoughts on this? Were you surprised?
00:28:06
I'm not surprised. No, because I I I think this is how Melania likes to engage in these things. She
00:28:14
picks an aspect of it that she thinks is sort of universal, which I think this
00:28:20
probably is, and weighs in. Um, and I think it's it's fine. I think it's it's
00:28:26
good and it's nice. Do I think it matters? No. No. Yeah. She's somewhat anti-Putin from
00:28:32
what I can read that she's the one shifting him over a little more against She's obviously from where this,
00:28:39
right? Yeah. I mean, I think that would make sense just like given her background, but but I also think that I
00:28:47
mean she has a lot of influence over her husband. So she does. If it if it were me, I think that's
00:28:53
probably the best place to exert influence is with the president of the United States.
00:28:58
Yeah, presumably. Yeah, I was sort of surprised by it was a strange letter, but I was like, okay, sure. We'll see
00:29:04
what happens. Um, talk a little bit about uh this takeover of Washington. and you don't live there any longer, but
00:29:10
um he's Republican governors from three states are sending National Guard troops to DC, joining already 800 mobilized in
00:29:16
the capital. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that guard troops may soon be carrying weapons, which is frightening for a DC resident like myself. A
00:29:23
reversal from the original orders, but the Trump administration has backed off its official push to take over the
00:29:29
police force after the city filed an emergency restraining order calling Trump's actions a hostile takeover. It's
00:29:35
been one week since Trump announced the takeover. is obviously putting uh troops on display in places where there's not
00:29:40
high crime um such as at Union Station or on 14th. I mean, there is there's
00:29:46
petty crime in 14th Street really for the most part, but what do you think about what's happening there as a former
00:29:52
DC resident and what it represents? Um alongside
00:29:59
yeah alongside I mean I you know Cara I was there on Friday um briefly very
00:30:05
briefly and I don't know if you feel this way I don't I don't know how recently you were because you travel so much but I was shocked by how quiet and
00:30:16
almost deserted the city felt. Well, it could be the summer, but yeah, it could be the summer, but it was
00:30:24
striking. And then, so I say that and I that was my gut feeling. I was like, this is odd. I was in the middle of
00:30:30
Chinatown. There were no people. Yeah. Restaurants are down. Restaurant reservations. So then
00:30:36
there's this reporting about the a dramatic drop. 25% 33% in restaurant um
00:30:42
reservations and foot traffic and bars. bars or you know these businesses are just saying this is totally
00:30:48
unsustainable and look I we will know more later but I'm starting there just
00:30:54
because the the premise of this whole thing is that DC residents want this deep down
00:31:01
inside because they want to feel safer so that they can go about their lives without fear a threat of violence
00:31:09
against them fear that but go ahead but the reality of it is that people are avoiding
00:31:14
being in the city right now because nobody wants to live in a society that is militarized,
00:31:20
right? I don't like going to countries that are milit when you go. Nobody likes going to countries that are militarized. When we travel, I've been
00:31:27
to places that are more militarized than here and you see the tanks in the street
00:31:32
and the the the guards where, you know, with the with the um semi-automatic we
00:31:37
long guns and all that stuff. It does not make you feel more safe. It makes you feel surveiled.
00:31:44
And I think that the the the proof is in the pudding. So even if you take their premise that
00:31:51
DC is so unsafe that there's a quiet support for this in among people who
00:31:57
live there, I think the proof is that that's not the case cuz otherwise they would be running around like you know
00:32:05
overwhelming city with yeah now we can finally do all the things. No, they're avoiding being in parts of the city.
00:32:12
That's the first thing. And I think the second thing is that I DC is the place that they are doing it because they can.
00:32:19
And that's the challenge with DC is that truly the the the citizens of the
00:32:24
District of Columbia have very few rights compared to other people in this
00:32:29
country. None. No. None virtually. And and our representative seems to be
00:32:35
Yeah. aged and not speaking out. But and and so but even if they were, I mean, he can do this.
00:32:41
Yeah, he can do this. And so should he do it? Probably not, but he can. And and I and
00:32:47
and as you pointed out, I mean, where are they sending these troops? It's not to the places where the crime is
00:32:53
actually happening. And they're also predominantly doing immigration arrests, just pulling um undocumented immigrants
00:33:01
from mopeds and delivering um iced coffees from Bluestone Lane.
00:33:06
So I just think the reality versus the rhetoric is so stark here. I want DC to be safe. I think crime is
00:33:13
absolutely a problem in the city, but I also think that the people who need protecting protecting are not being
00:33:20
protected. And it's also racial, right? It's like scary city
00:33:25
run by black people. Like I think that's a lot of it. Like the visuals is what they're going for in some fashion and
00:33:31
then doing nothing. Like they're at Union Station. I mean maybe at 1:00 in the morning, Union
00:33:36
Station's a little sketchy, but otherwise not at all. It's it's a very strange. I don't know where it's going to go. We'll see if he extends it to
00:33:42
other cities like New York if Have you also noticed, Cara, like I mean the thing that I think we should keep an eye on with this is the videos of the
00:33:50
the masked agents um the ones who there was the one that
00:33:56
went viral over the weekend where one of them said, you know, liberals have already ruined
00:34:02
America. Yeah. The the degree to which Trump has successfully turned
00:34:08
immigration agents, now the Secret Service, um you know, HSI, which
00:34:14
typically are tasked with some of the most sensitive, you know, federal law enforcement investigations
00:34:20
into his personal police force. that are aligned with him,
00:34:25
I think is one of the most important developments in the last several months and it's gone almost entirely unchecked
00:34:31
and it will only be exacerbated as we go down the road. Yeah, I don't think it's a long trip,
00:34:37
Abby. I think these people were already down that road in a lot of ways, but wearing of the mask is he's creating his
00:34:42
own personal stasia and that's what's really disturbing and it's going to be hard to put them back in the box for sure. Um, okay, let's go on a quick
00:34:49
break. We come back, how Gavin Newsome has become the ultimate Trump troll. Support for the show comes from Upwork.
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00:35:58
Abby, we're back. California Governor Gavin Newsome can play President Trump's social media game, too. He's quite good
00:36:04
at it. Newsome's press office uh social media feed has been focused on capital letters and AI memes mocking the
00:36:09
president's tactics and it's winning the attention game. The strategy is part of Newsome's response to Trump backed
00:36:14
redistricting plan in Texas. That's where it began. The California governor has responded by saying he would pursue
00:36:19
a special election to redraw California's congressional maps to offset Republican gains. It's a dicey
00:36:25
thing to do because other states could also participate. A post from uh Newsome's office reads in all caps,
00:36:30
Donald Trump the lowest polling president in recent history. This is your second to last warning. Stand down now or California will counter strike in
00:36:37
parenthesis legally to destroy your illegal crooked maps in red states. Meme posts include comparing Steve Miller to
00:36:43
Lord Voldemort. Responding to a photo of a rainbow over Marine One with happy pride, an image of Newsome on the cover
00:36:50
of Time magazine saying, "Long live the king." Meanwhile, Texas Democrats who fled the state to stall redistricting
00:36:56
plans have returned. The state legislature wrapped its first special session last week with Governor Greg Abbott quickly calling for a second
00:37:02
special session. Talk about what Newsome's doing here and your thoughts. You know, the the right is trying very hard to say he's cringey and this and
00:37:08
that. I think he's very funny. Um it's getting a lot of attention and certainly a lot of views etc. But what what is
00:37:15
happening here from your perspective with him and has he break the code on how to break through in the Trump era?
00:37:22
You know, I my views on Newsome are that he's trying to get attention and he's getting attention and I think I think
00:37:28
that you enjoy it. I I'm neutral on it. I
00:37:33
don't I It's all just trolling. Fine. My filter on some of this stuff is
00:37:41
what's the actual electoral impact? Because you can rally the base. You can make Democrats, you can tickle their
00:37:47
funny bone with this stuff. And that's great, but at the end of the day, Democrats
00:37:54
need to start winning elections. So, after all of this is done, what I want to know is what are they actually
00:38:01
doing to change the electoral reality in the country because that's the
00:38:06
ultimately the only thing that matters. I mean, on the redistricting bit of it, is it a race to a bottom? AB:
00:38:12
Absolutely. Um it it's interesting that um Arnold
00:38:18
Schwarzenegger is like very much opposed to this. Yeah. He had a when he was governor he
00:38:23
passed something that could they couldn't do this. He was trying to get to and has made it more difficult and and even within that paradigm you know Gavin
00:38:29
Newsome is still trying to actually I mean it's the hard way. You have to take it to a referendum in order to get this
00:38:34
to happen. So, I mean, look, if he's able to take it to a referendum and get a get approval from voters to
00:38:40
redistrict, then by I I guess by all means, but
00:38:45
I do think, and I see this a lot, Democrats do get held to a higher sort
00:38:53
of almost like moral standard than Republicans do on stuff like this. Um,
00:38:59
there's always the question of why aren't you moving to the middle? Why aren't you trying to appeal to
00:39:04
moderates? Meanwhile, the the fact of the matter is is that Trumpism and the rise of MAGA has
00:39:10
occurred by completely ignoring this even the mildest concept of moderation.
00:39:17
I mean, Trump and and Republicans have gone as farther to the right than they have been,
00:39:23
right? They don't care about a very long time, the rhinos at all. They don't So, I do think that it's worthwhile Democrats
00:39:29
saying, "Okay, let's let's really address the desires of voters here." And if this is what
00:39:36
their voters are asking for, I think that that politics is the business of um you know, adding and not subtracting.
00:39:42
So, building support for for people with
00:39:47
people for the things that you want to accomplish. And I think Democrats probably do need to start listening to their voters more. And I'm not sure how
00:39:54
many of them are asking for this sort of like mushy middle. They're asking for people to stand up
00:39:59
for something. And what that thing is, I think they're going to have to figure out, but they do need to start standing
00:40:06
up for something as opposed to trying to be in this weird like neither here nor there. Neither place. Yeah, we're supposed to
00:40:11
be real nice and the others can do whatever they want. In other words, um so when when you look at the Texas Democrats standing up, which they did,
00:40:17
they fled the state to stall these plans. It does may not work. Um but they did it. That's sort of a version of
00:40:23
leadership. And then what Nuome's doing, how do you compare them? Like what is do Democrats have to be doing things like
00:40:29
this that show some level of backbone? Because a lot of complaints you hear from Democrats are everyone's a noodle
00:40:36
like Chuck Schumer or what whoever it happens to be. Noodles noodles noodles
00:40:41
everywhere and they are kind of like this. Do you think it pays off from a from a political point of view for Newsome or these Texas Democrats? I I
00:40:49
think the Texas Democrats and it's an it's an exercise in futility, but there was also a precedent for doing it. There
00:40:55
was an attempt to do this very same thing in Texas um in the early 2000s. They they they did the same thing. They
00:41:01
left the state. Uh but ultimately the court sided with Texas Republicans in
00:41:06
the redistricting fight. So they knew that this was going to end the way that it is ending. But but more, you know, I
00:41:13
think if they want to make a statement by leaving the state, then fine. And I think that's totally fine to do. And I
00:41:19
think that there is some value in showing your voters that you care enough
00:41:25
to put yourself on the line even if it's going to end a certain way.
00:41:30
Right. On the Newsome part of it, I mean, same thing really. I mean,
00:41:36
Democrats have to figure out how they fight back and they may need to fight back by simply fighting fire with fire.
00:41:43
But um because I don't think that by Democrats sort of mut unilaterally disarming you're going to resolve the
00:41:49
problem of gerrymandering in this country. Jerry mandering needs to be resolved but
00:41:54
it's not going to be resolved by one side just kind of laying down and getting rolled over while the other side
00:42:01
gerrymanders. Um, right. Although some Republican state governors have resisted in New Hampshire and
00:42:07
elsewhere. They don't want to be pulled down into this muck, but they might probably will be presumably.
00:42:12
And and and and we should be clear that the some of the most gerrymandered states are not just Republican states.
00:42:18
Places like Illinois are heavily gerrymandered. So it's not to say that gerrymandering is the domain of one
00:42:25
party over another, although Republicans do utilize it heavily, especially in southern states. But um and and I would
00:42:33
also add that Democrats nationally have been way more willing to
00:42:39
say we would like to take this off the table for everyone, ourselves included, whereas Republicans have not said that.
00:42:46
And so there is it for the midterms for him and they don't want to not use utilize
00:42:52
gerrymandering. Yeah. Period. So, so I I mean in this moment
00:42:58
I think it makes sense what Gavin Newsome is doing if he's and and and I
00:43:04
think it helps. But you're neutral. It's interesting. You're like I'm not amused at Gav. I think I think that the Twitter
00:43:11
Yeah. X whatever I guess I should call it X. The X shenanigans
00:43:17
do not move me at all. Like I find them to be very unimpressive. not important, does not
00:43:25
matter to the average person, but it tickles people's fancy, so great. Go for it. Yeah, it's giving him a lot of impressions on
00:43:31
social media. Great. Go for it. Does that help his presidential chances from your perspective? No, that's that's
00:43:37
starting now, right? That's another discussion for another day. But I will just say that
00:43:44
I don't think that your presidential chances are related to your social media clout.
00:43:49
Yeah. So he does look good a strided eagle with a chest. He does you are you will become well known but
00:43:56
that doesn't mean that you are more likely to correct be elected president. And so that's the
00:44:02
other part of this that I think is why I'm kind of super neutral about it is that I just feel like people often
00:44:08
mistake those two things is does this person go viral on social media versus can they actually bank votes and those
00:44:16
things are not the same. And pe the folks who um are interested in Democrats
00:44:22
beating Republicans should pay very close attention to the to that distinction because that's also one of
00:44:28
the reasons why they didn't see Kla Harris's loss coming because they falsely believed that chatter on social
00:44:34
media was related to right votes and it and it's not. It's not. Snakes on a plane. That's what
00:44:40
they're called. Um which was very popular and then didn't do a movie because it was a bad movie. But it's
00:44:45
still iconic and it's it is still iconic. Yeah, still has to be a good movie. That's what I say. All right, Abby,
00:44:51
let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the Trump administration's plan to rank companies.
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Abby, we're back with one more story. The Trump administration has reportedly created a scoring system to rank 553
00:46:21
companies and trade associations based on support and promotion of Trump's big beautiful bill. Um factors in the rating
00:46:27
include social media posts, press releases, ads, and attendance in White House events. It's very similar what they're doing to people who are
00:46:33
immigrants, looking at their social media, looking at them and law firms and universities, etc. Companies that have
00:46:39
had the honor of being labeled highly include Uber, uh, Door Dash, United, and AT&T. And one company may be looking to
00:46:46
work its way up the rankings. Costco announced it wouldn't dispense mythic Presstone, the abortion medication at
00:46:51
itsies. The company said the decision was made due to lack of demand. Uh, groups from both the left and right have
00:46:57
been placing political pressure on Costco. Should we expect even more corporate sucking up in response to this
00:47:03
ranking? Why not? The law firms have and others have uh other administrations obviously have corporate favorites and
00:47:10
they play it more quietly. Um how do you look at this ranking? It's sort of the list. You're on our list kind of thing
00:47:16
which Trump has done any number of ways with other groups of people. Yeah. I mean it's not surprising at all.
00:47:22
I mean, I I know many people who um work on K Street and they've been operating in this environment since the very
00:47:28
beginning with Trump where there's a clear there has always been a clear sense that you have to prove your
00:47:36
loyalty to Trump by um things that you say publicly, things that you say
00:47:41
privately, um your willingness to put money behind the things that you do. They that's how they've been operating
00:47:47
from the beginning. So now we just know that there's like a spreadsheet that they're using to keep track,
00:47:52
right? Yeah. But but the truth of the matter is is that um the way I look at this is that corporations um especially
00:47:59
multinational ones, which is what we're talking about here in most cases, they operate all over the world. They operate
00:48:05
in free countries and they operate in unfree countries. They operate with strong men and they operate with
00:48:11
democratically elected leaders. And so they have been doing this dance in other parts of the world for a very
00:48:17
long time. They are not new to this. So they know how to operate in Trump's America. Their willingness to very
00:48:24
quickly adjust to a White House that A wants loyalty, b wants control. I mean,
00:48:31
Trump doesn't just want them to say nice things. He also wants to own shares of
00:48:37
private corporations. He wants to tell them how to operate their boards. He wants to hire their economists. He wants
00:48:43
to all of it. He wants his hand in all of it. Right. But they know how to deal with that and
00:48:49
they and they and I think if people thought that corporate America was going to be like the place where there's going
00:48:55
to be resistance to Trump, you are not paying attention. Yeah. Know it's the last place, right?
00:49:00
It's particularly anxious and and repulsive, but you know, it's they they have a fiduciary
00:49:06
responsibility to their shareholders to do what they need to do in order to
00:49:13
to to sail through this era of American history. Yeah. Kim Cook giving that
00:49:18
giving that statue. Everyone was so upset. I was like, "Are you kidding?" Totally. They are they are going to do
00:49:24
it. If you think that there is not a thing that they're willing to do, you are wrong. Yep. Totally wrong. They will do it. All of
00:49:31
it. They will say, "Yes, Mr. Trump, you can own shares of our company. Yes, Mr.
00:49:36
Trump, you can select members of our board. Yes, Mr. Trump, we will stop um
00:49:41
utilizing hiring practices that you don't like." Yeah. all of it. They will
00:49:47
do all of it. And um they will do it because they know that it's for a time,
00:49:52
maybe four years, maybe something else will come after that, but they just have to weather this storm and maximize the
00:49:58
shareholder value and they will do that. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. I
00:50:04
certain groups will resist, certain companies will, but Costco is quite a liberal company and resisted DEI uh
00:50:11
pushing on DEI. um they may be telling the truth about lack of demand or they just are like gh this is just causing us
00:50:17
so much of a headache we'll just do it. I wonder if they're afraid also of lawsuits because I think there's a
00:50:23
little bit of with the myth Presstone. I do think that there is a sort of
00:50:28
almost like it's different from the DEI thing, there's like a threat of yeah, you know, lawsuits about the safety even
00:50:34
though the the methopressone is a safe drug. There are these organizations that have been threatening
00:50:41
um on safety grounds to go after companies that provide it to patients.
00:50:46
And so there are layers to this with the medical stuff that I think are different. Yeah, you can see you can be in those
00:50:52
rooms like gh let's just get this off our plate. Let's give them a gold statue. It's fine. Whatever. Um these
00:50:58
are small little things to them. They aren't ultimately because it creates us it feels very Putin, right? It feels um
00:51:06
you know he doesn't have to like kill them to get them to do these things the way Putin does of course with his
00:51:11
enemies. Um but it's a version of that. And don't be surprised for companies. I'm not some people I'm more surprised
00:51:18
of by others, but last week I was talking to Rachel about university. It's not like they were the an ad for
00:51:23
tolerance and and anti you know wokeism any of those university presidents ever
00:51:29
like if you've ever met one um including corporate owners corporate owners of
00:51:35
media and things like that. You've seen it all over the place. Um all right, Abby, one more quick break. We'll be
00:51:40
back for wins and fails. Okay, Abby, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first or I can very
00:51:46
quickly? You can go first. Um I think my um my win is Steve Waznjak. He is the co-founder of Apple
00:51:53
uh computer with Steve Jobs. Um he he made an appearance in a thread about his lawsuit against YouTube over internet
00:52:00
scammers using his likeness which happens by the way to you Abby and to me and everyone else all across the
00:52:05
internet. He said, "I gave all my Apple wealth away because wealth and power are not what I live for. I have a lot of fun
00:52:11
and happiness. I funded a lot of important museums and arts groups in San Jose, the city of my birth, and they named a street after me for being good.
00:52:17
He liked that. I remember him telling me about it. Um he he he has about $10 million, I think he's of all the money
00:52:24
he's made. Um and he's always been like this. And I just like a reminder of someone like this. Um in this sort of
00:52:31
get get while the getting's good kind of thing. He's been he is a very happy jolly person. Um and I find it really
00:52:38
nice that he you know, there are other kinds of billionaires. they're not all the same or very wealthy people and he
00:52:44
certainly has his impact has been massive on us. Steve Jobs gets all the attention but Steve Waznjak was also
00:52:51
critical to Apple which we all use today and so I really like that. Um my fail is
00:52:56
something I talked about with Rachel last week was the name Versent um which is the new company about to um come out
00:53:03
and we were joking it sounds like you know a medication that would be advertised on late night cable uh to res
00:53:09
resolve your w your rash and results may vary um but they're they're now having to change MSNBC which when it was
00:53:16
started it was Microsoft NBC that's where it came from. I was there when it was started uh when they had that deal a
00:53:22
long time ago. Um, now it's changed to MS MS Now, which is short for my source
00:53:29
news opinion world. What uh Semaphor's Josh Binsson said, MS Now sounds like a
00:53:35
short-lived Windows operating system for the early 2000s that needlessly redesigned too much and failed to be
00:53:40
adopted by a mass critical. This This is bad, Cara. I know MS. Sorry to say, but it's
00:53:47
you can say it doesn't roll. It doesn't roll off the tongue. does not roll off the I don't
00:53:52
know what you do you have a name you'd call it right any anything that's the thing it's like how do you how to rename a thing
00:53:59
in this day and age it's so hard I mean I I I empathize because there are no there are no good choices here
00:54:06
no to be fright MS now is my my source
00:54:13
they made me download MS now and I hate it it's like chat GBC 5 those people are
00:54:18
all upset they don't have chat GBT40 But whatever. Um, uh, it's just like, h,
00:54:24
come on. It'll matter how they do ultimately. Not the name because, you know, HBO Now, HBO then, HBO this,
00:54:34
uh, uh, Max, this and that happens all the time, but it's a particularly bad name. Sorry.
00:54:39
I thought it was I thought it was Yeah, I know we love Rebecca, but it's not her fault. It's I thought it was um
00:54:45
It was nice to hear Rachel being so optimistic about it. Um, yeah. I mean, I and I think she's right. I I think this
00:54:51
is nothing but opportunity going forward. And maybe it doesn't matter what it's coming for you. I mean, that's
00:54:56
what they're saying. Exactly. Right. Like, but who cares what it's called? I mean, at the end of the day, it's that's not what matters.
00:55:03
Yeah. You get to keep CNN. There's no names. Name conflict over there. And it should
00:55:08
keep CNN. It's a global. No. No. I don't think CNN is I mean, I I don't know, but I don't think CNN is
00:55:13
going anywhere in terms of Well, you're about to go on that journey, too. And it's all about being an entrepreneur. be a fun little trip
00:55:18
that we'll be on. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll see. All right, your wins and fail. My turn. Okay. Should I Let me start
00:55:24
with my fail cuz I want to end on a high note. Okay. Um my fail is the president of the
00:55:31
United States going on this bizarre mail anti-malein voting uh screed over the
00:55:38
weekend about how he's going to he wants to outlaw mailin voting. Maybe this is
00:55:44
because Putin brought this up with him on Friday as a way to try to flatter him. But he said all kinds of false
00:55:53
things, including some things that led me to question whether anyone had shown
00:55:59
him the actual Constitution because he does he does claim that the states are merely
00:56:06
an agent for the federal government in counting and tabulating the votes, which
00:56:12
is needless to say not what the Constitution says. No, I cannot wait to hear how uh states
00:56:21
rights conservatives defend this because not only does it
00:56:26
make no sense at all, but his opposition to mailin voting just defies reality. If
00:56:34
Democrats were so good at rigging voting votes, do you think that he would have won in 2024?
00:56:41
Truly, I mean, no. Right. So yeah, Democrats have done a really crappy job
00:56:47
of rigging elections with mailin votes. I think he's trying to deal with 2026, either the census or the voting, right?
00:56:55
Yeah. Yes. And he says he wants to do it before right before the midterms, but I mean I I I say this in as you know, it's
00:57:03
not a joke, but a little somewhat light-heartedly, but is also super important and terrible at the same time.
00:57:10
I I do think that this is just a bald-faced lie that ought to be immediately
00:57:15
and voting machine. Same thing. He wants to get literally rocks. Everyone gets a rock.
00:57:20
He wants um he said something about watermarked paper. Yeah. I I don't I can't even begin to unpack
00:57:28
that one. But distrust in voting. That's that's my fail. Continue. Okay. He just wants more He wants more paper,
00:57:35
which I I don't know what to tell you. Paper. My win is
00:57:41
uh I have a four-year-old now, Cara, and I successfully executed a four-year-old
00:57:47
birthday party this weekend. And I will tell you that um this one was hard. It
00:57:54
was harder than the ones that came before because they she had so many freaking opinions
00:58:01
about this party and about the gifts that she was expecting and about, you
00:58:06
know, I mean, I was like tracking down the RSVPs like it was my party like is her best friend coming, you know, like
00:58:14
oh my god, what if there are not these people that she really loves? And yeah,
00:58:19
I just I'm glad to be through it. But that's my win. I I first of all, I've
00:58:25
kept a human alive for four years. Yeah. I successfully planned a birthday party
00:58:30
for said human. Yeah. Um I still have my my hearing because the kids screamed
00:58:37
like banshees for at least 45 minutes at the start of this party. Yeah. Just non-stop running around and
00:58:44
screaming. Yeah. And I'm here to live to tell the tale. Oh, happy. You have no idea what's
00:58:50
coming. I'm on I have four kids in Vermont right now and let me just tell you it's you're
00:58:57
going to love sevens and 10 and 13. Oh yeah. I mean I'm worried because the
00:59:02
way four went I was like wait a second you better get some endurance going here
00:59:08
Abby. You're not supposed to do it. Yeah. She also asked me for a gift that then she told me that she didn't want
00:59:14
anymore. Seven and that I should return. I'm going to give you some advice. 7 10 13 16 Let me just 20 20. I didn't have
00:59:23
the right yogurt this morning. Sleep for his macros. Don't even talk to me. I had to buy two chickens.
00:59:29
The macros, not the macros. Don't even I'm not even going to let you know about that yet. You're You got a protein monster in your
00:59:35
house. I can tell. Don't even talk to me. Don't Everyone has a different situation. Anyway, um
00:59:43
congratulations on that and and get ready. That's all I have to say. Um, we want to hear from you. Send us your
00:59:49
questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or
00:59:54
call 8551 pivot. Elsewhere this week, I talked to philosopher and author Jason
01:00:00
Stanley about fascism in the Trump era for just a light interview. Let's listen to a clip.
01:00:05
It's a kind of paint by numbers fascist dictatorship that is emerging. It's not
01:00:12
it's it's something that you would read a book and it says this is what they do and that's what they're doing. Um
01:00:19
sometimes I feel like they're reading my books. Uh so so you know it's not it's
01:00:25
it's not hidden. And so it's it's not it's it's not a sophisticated
01:00:30
version of of authoritarianism. Not even as sophisticated as Putin. But it does it have to be.
01:00:36
It doesn't appear so. It it appears that the United States is exceptionally vulnerable to fascism.
01:00:44
Just what you were saying, Abby. Um he's really an interesting fellow. He's the one that moved to Canada. Um which I
01:00:49
chastised him for. Can I say one quick thing about that just cuz I first of all that's super interesting. The one thing I would say
01:00:56
is that even though I think it's super important to understand the history of all of this, I think people need to be
01:01:02
very focused on the here and now in terms of tactically what is being done
01:01:09
to if you disagree with what Trump is doing to address it. And I think people forget about that as they are sort of
01:01:15
like well this is like what happened you know x number of years ago or over there
01:01:20
and the question is how do you convince your neighbors to vote for something different the next time around right although he did point out there
01:01:26
are primmers of how to resist a civil rights movement speaking of which you just wrote wrote a book about this there
01:01:32
in the civil rights movement the images that worked there um especially the the brutality
01:01:38
moved over a group of people mostly white that the suddenly he became empathetic and things changed, right?
01:01:45
And totally more and more protests happened. So, and Jackson was part of that, right? Calling attention to it.
01:01:50
Um, as you noted, so we'll see. He's an interesting guy. Um, okay, that's the show. Abby, thank
01:01:56
you for joining me. I I I really appreciate it. And people can watch you on News Night every weekn night on CNN.
01:02:02
And your book, A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson, The Fight for Black Political Power, comes out in October. And again,
01:02:08
we're going to have you on on to talk about that. Uh, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you, Cara. Thank you, Cara. I
01:02:14
really appreciate it. We did it. We did it. Anyway, everybody, thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and
01:02:20
subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing by leaps and bounds. Uh we'll be back because now podcasting is video
01:02:25
Abby. I don't know if you know that, but FYI. Um we'll we'll be back on Friday
01:02:30
and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie
01:02:36
Anderdat engineered this episode. Jim Mackel edited the video. Nishad Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of
01:02:43
podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot on from New York
01:02:48
Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for
01:02:55
another breakdown of all things tech and business. Again, thank you Abby. And say hi to your Scott. I will. Okay. All
01:03:02
right. Thanks, Abby. [Music]