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all right everybody welcome back to the all in
podcast we're here with Jamal Paula Hypatia David
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Freiburg and David sacks our usual usual foursome
as we chop up the business news and what's going
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on and just as a point of order the frequency of
the show is well don't don't ask as we feel like
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it as we feel like it correct so do not ask me
to advertise on the podcast because Tremont band
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advertising and do not ask me when the next one is
the next one is when trauma the sides he wants to
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go on a rant but well how are you holding up best
EC best he's doing pretty well yeah and the family
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everything or have you come out of quarantine in
any way so the first question I have for people is
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has your behavior change now as we go into I think
what most people are calling phase two any change
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in what you're doing in the risk you're willing to
take come off it's a really good question you know
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i i i've kind of ventured out a little bit but i
just kind of put on a mask the only place i don't
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wear a mask is when i walk around my house just
because it's you know i live in the suburbs and
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so there's just so much space between people that
you don't really run into anybody but if I have to
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go to Walgreens or CVS or whatever I always bring
a mask and gloves so I've got I've ventured out a
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little bit but you know nothing nothing meaningful
to be quite honest and Saks you're still out of
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the country in an undisclosed location how are
you feeling about what risks you're willing to
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take I you know small groups of people are you
going out to a restaurant are you seeing other
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people how do you look at the risk you're willing
to take personally I've adjusted my risk profile I
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think quite a bit so I mean that the the learning
over the past few months was just that relatively
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that the fatality rate for say relatively healthy
people under 50 without risk factors is you know
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fifty times lower then say you know someone under
over 60 or someone who has risk factors and so I'm
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not being reckless but I'm willing to kind of rien
social behavior among groups of friends and on the
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theory that you know all my friends have been
locked down I was I was in total lockdown for
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two months sort of my friends and so you know I
have several questions the first is I mean how
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will do you look like 90 roughly how old are you
exactly so how does how did the risk factors apply
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to you second you have friends no there's three
on this call Zach C Pugh I love you I miss ya no
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I mean you raise a good point I mean my physical
age might be 90 but my lungs are only 48 years
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old so my my hopefully my my lungs are you know
qualifying that under 50 category so you know
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I've been playing golf with friends you know I've
I've kind of widened the the circle of people I'm
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willing to let into my quarantine basically so
by a dozen by a hundred by about I've actually
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let in at not all at once but at different times
probably about twenty people got it so you feel
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comfortable and those people you do ask them have
you quarantined have you been wearing masks have
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you been tested or are you just like I kind of
I mean I I generally know that people I mean
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now this may change over the next few months but
everyone's been kind of under shelter in place
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and so if you were gonna start to socializing or
with your friends this would be the safest time
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to do it because everybody has been sort of locked
down to some degree and you know most places have
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been closed and so you know if your friends having
gotten it they're probably pretty safe all right
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swinging over to you Dave Friedberg tell me what
you think of Sachs's position obviously Tremont's
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still in quarantine you know venturing off to
the store once in a while sacks opening up to
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you know 20 people or whatever in small groups
playing golf outdoors but I'm assuming he's not
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having like an indoor party for 50 obviously how
would you look at the risk he's taking and what
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risk are you taking Friedberg personally in your
life I'm not too dissimilar I've got about eight
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buddies coming over to the pool this afternoon
we're gonna do kind of like a Father's Day hang
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session but we're gonna be outside and I've
done a lot of hiking without masks and going
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outside without maths I'm not really too concerned
about outdoor behavior there was a good analysis
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done that showed increasing cases where they
actually found the origin of where transmission
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occurred ninety seven percent occurred indoors
so generally speaking like outdoor activity to
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me is like pretty reasonable to do so I'm pretty
free with like doing stuff outside meeting friends
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outside hanging out by the pool and I've got a
bunch of people come by and hang out and then
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indoor stuff I try and avoid so if I'm gonna go
into a supermarket I'll wear or grocery store
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I'll wear a mask and I'll be in there as short a
time period as I need to be and I'm certainly not
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going into restaurants and stuff like that but you
would sit outdoors at a restaurant I would assume
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if the tables were six feet apart would you go to
a restaurant and sit in the recipe yeah I'm not
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rushing to do that just yet there's just something
a little bit weird about the way some of those are
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configured but generally yes like outdoor seems
fine you know but like the way they set it up
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it's almost like you're exposing yourself to a
bunch of people around you because they're pretty
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confined spaces if they're setting up these
tables at and that but yeah sunlight and wind
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effectively will you know break apart the protein
that that is the virus and and you will not have
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this kind of infectious viral particle and so
that's a pretty you know well understood thing
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at this point and you know but it's not spoken
about as much by public health officials because
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they don't want to kind of mitigate the concern
and they don't want people to start taking off
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maps and you know taking on very risky behavior
but yeah generally speaking I think kind of like
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outdoor behavior is pretty pretty safe and non
non transmissible I the risky stuff I'm doing is
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you know we had a you know just having like folks
come back to the house and that's where I kind of
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still try and draw the line which is having people
in the house and you don't know where they've been
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and so that's a little bit concerning inside the
house the spittle particles with Kovan 19 in of
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them if they did would be lingering that is what
I'm sorry to be graphic but that is the concern
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correct Freiburg is that when you're outdoors the
spittle would blow away and the dirt is right I
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mean it really doesn't happen so the liquid that
holds the protein because the protein needs to be
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in a liquid to kind of maintain its integrity
when that evaporates and it'll evaporate from
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wind or from Sun and that protein will degrade
it becomes kind of a non-infectious particle at
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that point and so when you're inside and you don't
have those mechanisms that particle can just float
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around in the air and that's how it gets spread
and that's why in the tracing work that was done
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it shows like 97% of cases happen in an indoor
environment just like this and I don't believe
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in the 6-foot thing I think it's [ __ ] like
if you're 6 foot away from someone in a room
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people are coughing and that room gets filled with
those particles over a one hour period it doesn't
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matter if you're [ __ ] six feet away or 20 feet
away that stuff's in the air so this whole notion
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about like hey distance yourself in a restaurant
indoor space it's like no that's actually not
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going to necessarily solve a problem maybe if
someone immediately sneezed you'll avoid it but
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I mean certainly since active advocacy for mass
he free burgers are you is that an aura ring your
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own yeah have you tried it yeah I I actually just
bought it a few weeks ago and I've been using it
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to monitor my sleep but the there was an article
that said that you know I think that all the NBA
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players are going to be given these aura rings as
well because it can apparently detect coronavirus
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three days ahead of other people other other ways
because it can see a change in your basal sort of
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body temperature yes so UCSF ran this beta with
them and they developed this algorithm that they
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think it's pretty predictive so we'll see if it
works in production but yeah that's the theory
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well there's also this connected thermometer
that if you use it I forgot the name of it
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it sends all the data to a central repository
and they've been able to predict it as well and
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this just when we look at how the government I
think it's called rekt attempt wrecked attempt
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it has to go in your rectum yeah just whatever
is going out of your rectum it goes right to who
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the government now it there and but this is an
interesting thing when you think about low-cost
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ways to deal with this the amount of money we
pour it into the system shamov is so great that
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if we just sent every single person in America
and aura ring or one of these thermometers and
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said just take your Thurmont your temperature all
the day we would know where the outbreaks were
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and that would be a lot less expensive than a lot
of the stimulus we're doing to try to cure what's
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going on do you agree that we should maybe include
that in some sort of approach look I think that I
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think the basic issue is that something really
odd has happened in the United States and we
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were talking about this in our group chat which is
that we have managed to find a way to politicize
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absolutely everything and you know some things
for example like universal basic income or you
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know what is our national policy towards China
those are political issues but things of public
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health when they get sort of distorted and viewed
through a political lens or just idiotic you know
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we view masks as a political statement we view
we would view these aura rings as you know people
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being afraid that the government was going to
track them so we'll find every good will find a
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lot of excuses in order to blow up any good idea
at this point because we can politicize anything
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and we do it better than any other country in
the world you know it's an interesting point
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you make there and I'm gonna I'm gonna go to you
in a second Sachs if you pull up my computer for
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a second Nick one thing I cannot understand when
I watch the media or I watch this discussion and
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we haven't seen doctor foul Chi in about 60 days
I don't know where they buried him but he's been
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put in a bunker somewhere but the number of
deaths in the United States continues to go
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down massively now I know New York was a big
outbreak and that contributes to it but at the
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same time if you look and you compare deaths to
new cases you know the new cases has increased
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in some regions and testing has gone way up so in
trying to interpret this data I don't understand
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why there's not somebody saying listen here's
the newse debts are going way down testing is
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going way up and here's what we should take from
that sax I think you and I are might be slightly
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different sides of the aisle when it comes to
to politics how do you look at this in terms of
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leadership at a federal level and then the media
and how you know to jamaat's point we politicize
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this yeah well I agree that that things get overly
politicized and mass is a is a really good example
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it's just a really common sense easy solution you
know I wrote a blog that we covered on this pod
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two and a half months ago saying that I thought
math should be public mass wearing should be
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policy it should be the law little did I know
that I was taking a left-wing position yeah did
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you lose any friends over that right still talking
to you I mean I know you guys have me on the show
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as the the token right winger but actually I
just appear at CNN just asked me to be on the
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show today to explain why mass should be policy so
I I just thought that was a common-sense thing you
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know I'm normally very receptive to libertarian
arguments but you know like like we talked about
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the boundaries of libertarianism are you know you
only have the freedom to wave your arms until your
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fist hits my nose you know and something similar
is true about in when your infectious particles
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hit my nose you know there there are reasonable
boundaries to freedom there in the interests of
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other people's health and and you know that that
blog a lot of public pronouncements about kovat if
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not aged very well over the last couple of months
I think that blog actually is aged pretty well by
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comparison and because you just look at all the
countries that have been successful at fighting
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kovat I mean Japan has 135 million people it's an
old population and they've had under a thousand
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deaths South Korea 51 million people under 300
deaths you take a Western European nation like
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Czech Republic they had a huge kovat outbreak
spike just like the rest of Europe they went
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all-in on mass wearing and they've completely
controlled the viruses knocked out and so it's
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really crazy to me that we just can't get on the
same page as a country about something as obvious
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and easy as mass wearing and it's because we the
the the the left wants to get Trump out of office
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so badly and they're so triggered by him and they
hate him so much whether that's valid or not we'll
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leave aside that they want to and then he wants to
say no mask I don't understand his motivation what
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do you what do you think Trump is thinking and
who's advising him that he should be anti mask
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I I think somehow it's for the right has become
an act of defiance and I understand that to some
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degree because I do think that the lockdowns went
on too long they with I think with 20/20 hindsight
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we would say the lockdowns weren't necessary
if we had just gone all-in on a mass policy
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that's what they did in Japan right and so you
you know the the problem the problem with kind
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of the the politicians in charge is that you know
well backing up a second I think the right policy
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is to end lockdowns but where mass and the problem
with the politicians is half of them didn't want
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to end lockdowns and the other half didn't want to
wear masks and that's kind of the the weird way in
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which has become this political football Trump was
trying to do this as an act of defiance what was
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the left trying to accomplish do you think what
would be your cynical or charitable approach to
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what their reaction to this and locking down
so severely well I just I I think that what
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was the purpose of lockdowns I think it was the
I think the initial reaction was it was based on
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what happened in Italy right and so in Italy we
had kind of had this worst-case scenario where
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the hospital system got overwhelmed you know
tremendous fatality rate from the virus and
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then we started to see the same thing happening
in New York and and I think you know blocking
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down briefly in New York to get a handle on the
situation I think was justified I don't think
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again with 20/20 hindsight that we needed to do it
anywhere else in the country if we had instead you
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know just worn masks do you think the left though
perpetrated a perpetual lockdown this is the most
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cynical view that I've heard and I don't think you
hear this often and that's part of why we do this
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pockets is to sort of explore these you know kind
of takes that you hear on the inside but not maybe
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on CNN the cynical interpretation was they wanted
to keep locked down to crash the economy to make
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Trump look bad to get him out of the office do
you think there's anything valid to that argument
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I you know I I don't know I yeah I mean I don't
it's certainly possible I think that it's possible
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though that the left just kind of under weights
you know the economic damage of lockdowns you
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know I heard a lot of arguments about from from
the left that if you wanted to end lockdowns then
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you care more about money than lives you can't
put a price on a life which is literally what we
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do all the time like insurance health care we put
up price on life free birth but but I was never
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in favor of doing nothing I mean I you know I was
tweeting weeks ago that we should end lock downs
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but we're a mass and so my argument would be look
at Japan you do more for lives and the economy by
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having a mass policy instead of lockdowns Freiberg
what's your take on sacks estate no I don't
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disagree I mean I you know I'm not I'm not a great
expert on kind of the politics and you know I can
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kind of comment on policy I think in terms of what
I think is reasonable and not I certainly you know
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thought that the lock downs were unreasonable in
the extent but then the problem was they weren't
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followed so they were all for waste so the worst
of all the worst of all outcomes yeah but there
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wasn't all huge I liked until they actually went
into effect there wasn't a huge amount of debate
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about theirs it was just like oh [ __ ] we better
all go into lockdown what happens this is almost
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like the human conscious and unconscious mind like
you know the conscious mind rationalizes what the
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unconscious already decided to do so everyone
freaked out everyone had a great deal of fear
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we shut everything down and then the left and the
right had their own rationalization after the fact
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you know what that meant was it good was it bad
did we overreact and we under react should we have
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done more and so I feel like the narrative told
a little bit too late here where we all kind of
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like have these commentaries about left and right
Paul it's politics after the fact and you know I
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don't think it's really meaningful to be honest
it's just almost like let's what's the windy what
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happened story with our own point of view based
on our cried for whatever we sit in so trimethyl
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weird how do we get out of this now because the
debts are going to hangover out we're at we're up
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the the genies out of the bottle look the reality
is there is not a single country government that
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can tolerate future lockdowns because I think the
populations will revolt and so we're going to have
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to deal with cases as they crop up and we're gonna
have to deal with infection rates popping up and
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you know we'll have to deal with these bursty
economic landscape today Apple just announced
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you're closing a bunch of stores and a few in a
few states though I'm sure they'll reopen them
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in a few weeks but we're gonna be in this sort
of start and stop mode now for the foreseeable
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future but it's just not possible to ask people
now to go back into any form of quarantine or
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shelter-in-place I just don't think they'll do
it right and people people only do lockdowns
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until there's some activity that they they want
to engage in that they think is essential right
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and so you saw with the protests if you believe
that the civil rights protests are essential you
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believe that you're out of lockdown and you
know and if you want to go to a trump rally
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you believe that's essential and you're out of
lockdown and so you know so everybody you know
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you have the case in Texas of the woman who wanted
to open her air cut salon and so you know you were
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never gonna get good compliance with a lockdown
plan in addition to the damage and destruction
00:19:31
it caused it was never very effective because
people weren't willing to do it and I think
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the big public policy mistake here was the
politicians squandering their credibility on
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lock down so we're never very feasible instead
of just going all in on mass and it would have
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been a lot cheaper I've yet by the way the other
thing is we need to push mask-wearing back into a
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public health debate and you know Newsom yesterday
gavin newsom the governor of california basically
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said masks are not mandatory in California the
thing is you have to add fines if you don't wear
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them where you know people can be cited and fined
and then the other thing and David you said this
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earlier is you have to be criminally culpable
at some level if you go out of your way to not
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wear a mask and infect somebody and there is a a
bunch of you know case law on how this can be true
00:20:25
and so I think that you know we need to we need
to solve these things because you need to have
00:20:31
good hygiene around mask wearing and what the
consequences are if you choose to not wear one
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well you know chop it's interesting you bring
that up there was a there have been cases of
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people purposely infecting people with the HIV
virus and going to jail for it and being liable
00:20:47
for it so there is I think and I'm different
different coughing in somebody's face versus
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having sex with them when you know you're infected
what is the difference well that wouldn't have you
00:20:57
saw this viral video of the the Karen which is
a so many Karen's these days so many Karen's and
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Aunt Karen just like got upset that somebody was
calling around for not wearing a mask in a cafe
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and she literally coughed on the person I know
did you see that video how is yeah person not
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in jail I mean it's I think that was in New York
right and I think it was New York and the woman
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didn't know she was being filmed but oh my lord
I mean the great thing about the internet right
00:21:23
now is like if anybody basically transgresses they
are identified in about a nanosecond and I mean I
00:21:30
saw that because on sound the Saturday morning she
coughed on this person who was complaining about
00:21:36
her not wearing a mask and within 15 minutes they
had her LinkedIn they had contacted Weill Medical
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Center where she worked and then while put out
a press release basically saying we had fired
00:21:49
her you know for being a dummy well before the
mask thing and so the whole thing now just gets
00:21:56
so adjudicated and resolved so quickly it's it's
it's incredible we basically moved to judge dredd
00:22:02
now it's like the the social media is the judge
the jury and the cops in this entire equation
00:22:08
the one that I loved actually that that really
actually frankly I look forward to was the the the
00:22:15
cyclists in Maryland I mean you know you cannot
go after kids touching another person's child and
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and women and like attacking them for putting
up you know blacklivesmatter posters like and
00:22:32
then to attack these but then again it was the sub
community on reddit and it was amazing it was the
00:22:38
actual like Maryland subreddit who knows what's
going on in the Maryland subreddit on reddit what
00:22:45
could they be talking about but they identified
this guy and he was fired he was arrested and
00:22:50
it all happened with him you know probably 36
hours but you got you guys know in that story
00:22:55
there was another guy who was identified first
and he's my lease officer and people went after
00:23:00
him and he basically had his life ruined within
those first 24 hours and he will God yeah yeah
00:23:07
he went the guy the way they died was dystrophy a
data right like he had they found a guy on Slavia
00:23:13
who had promised whatever a guy was using stevia
the app that does for the bike people and they
00:23:22
monetize that app through subscriptions correct
don't make fun of my dyslexia your mob bully me
00:23:32
on my own podcast you say monetize on CNBC in
front of millions of people it's a label you've
00:23:38
tried to teach you how to pronounce that word for
15 years I know but I say it on purpose now and
00:23:42
I lean into it now Moni is slightly pornographic
later okay go back to your stevia story what is it
00:23:54
wait right so so so what happened is this guy got
in trouble and this is my point about the problem
00:23:58
with the groupthink hivemind approach to these
issues is you can end up not when you don't follow
00:24:03
a predefined due process and you let the mob kind
of rule over these moments bad [ __ ] can happen
00:24:09
too and so what happened what happened to the cop
the cop II like everyone started chasing him down
00:24:16
and like you know his whole life got ruined every
was like death threats and [ __ ] with him and all
00:24:20
that sort of stuff how calling his employer
calling people who no invited but they found
00:24:24
his phone number they found to address a dacha
turned upside down yeah and but basically like
00:24:28
the fact that they found out that it was someone
else doesn't resolve the fact that there are now
00:24:32
hundreds of people after this guy and they don't
pay attention that it wasn't him and you know due
00:24:37
process has a role in a civilized society where
you can actually create structure and resolve
00:24:42
these things in a proper way as opposed to letting
mob mentality kind of rule I mean otherwise you
00:24:47
know this stuff can get it pretty ugly pretty
fast as we saw as this being just a really you
00:24:51
know pretty lightweight example but I'm not sure
I'm a huge advocate of this like chase the guy
00:24:57
down and then punish him at once and cancel this
cancel culture is a little bit ugly right now you
00:25:01
don't have all the facts in this stuff in a lot
of these cases yeah there is definitely it's great
00:25:07
that you can find criminals so quickly and I'm
curious what people think and obviously you just
00:25:13
don't want to miss target somebody so there's
if you do find somebody's targeted like give
00:25:16
the information to the authorities but you may
not want to DOX them immediately and and try to
00:25:22
ruin their lives before you actually know what's
going on a lot of companies now Microsoft IBM and
00:25:27
others Amazon I think are saying we don't want to
we're going to take a pause on facial recognition
00:25:34
I'm curious what your each of your thoughts are
on law enforcement and we'll get into the law
00:25:41
enforcement discussion and race relations here in
this country and what we went through we look we
00:25:47
we have been we have been we've been arming our
police force mistakenly like our military and
00:25:54
we've been doing it for you know decades now and
it makes no sense there was this crazy tweet I saw
00:26:02
today maybe we can find a OC tweeted out where she
found this announcement from some like long tail
00:26:09
Police Department somewhere who basically got a
free armored truck carrier and you know they're
00:26:17
they're they're driving it around town or whatever
pulling it out of the garage it looks like
00:26:22
downtown Baghdad and you're like I mean they're in
like Fargo North Dakota wherever they are I mean
00:26:26
like it's just so it makes no sense I don't think
I don't think any of us thought that we wanted
00:26:31
to apportion our tax dollars to build a second
shadow army I think we all want an arm Navy and
00:26:40
Marines and an Air Force we want you know aircraft
carriers and f-16s and tanks and machine guns and
00:26:48
all that stuff but we want them with our military
and then we want cops I think to be extremely well
00:26:54
trained I mean half the time you know cops are you
know you ask them to be mental health counselors
00:26:59
other times you're asking them to be you know
CPR givers other times you're asking them to be
00:27:05
criminal apprehend errs the job is too complicated
they clearly can't do it they're poorly trained
00:27:10
and then you arm them on top of all of that and
you have this shitshow that we have today yeah
00:27:14
it's not like there's an AED waiting somewhere for
them to drive over where they need metal plating
00:27:20
on the bottom of the vehicle that's not what
they're dealing with every day at a minimum let's
00:27:24
like look I I'm a huge fan of ending qualified
immunity I think that doesn't make any sense
00:27:29
I think we have to stop arming our police like
their military don't train them like the military
00:27:35
trained them like a different kind of service
and we may need to go back to first principles to
00:27:40
figure out how to actually train them properly
to spot abuse to deal with mental health and
00:27:46
just to be you know a little bit more patient and
understanding and empathetic versus trigger-happy
00:27:51
can ask you can ask you a question on that so a
lot of the actions that police take when it comes
00:27:58
to lethal action is defended by the notion that
my life was under threat as a cop and that sources
00:28:06
from the fact that we have a Second Amendment in
this country where a lot of people are you know
00:28:10
you know gun carriers in Orlando to have arms so
our police force has had to respond with the fact
00:28:16
that there are a lot of guns in this country with
defensive principles and defensive mechanisms to
00:28:21
defend themselves against the loss of life due
to a gun and that makes the United States really
00:28:26
unique in terms of the the circumstance versus if
you look at the United Kingdom where they don't
00:28:31
have a second Amendment right to bear arms the
police aren't armed and the police behavior is
00:28:36
significantly different you can look at this in
any country where there isn't a right to bear
00:28:39
arms do we not have a fundamental problem in this
country that stems from the fact that the police
00:28:43
feel or can justify that they're always under
threat of loss of life due to arms being out
00:28:48
in the Contra I think is a fabulous question
the Contra example I would say is if look at
00:28:53
Switzerland where the per capita gun ownership is
really high Canada where per capita gun ownership
00:28:58
is really high what I would tell you is there's
a different kind of psychological training that
00:29:02
police people go through before they're put on the
streets and that is fundamentally different here
00:29:07
the job as is defined to them here is different
than it is in Canada or Switzerland where you
00:29:14
know gun ownership levels are quite robust and
I think it all comes down to incentives and the
00:29:20
reality is is that there is a to your point David
this amplification of this idea that everybody is
00:29:27
armed which i think is fundamentally mostly not
true in the day to day course of like living
00:29:33
one's life but I think police people tend to be
very amplified around that threat and as a result
00:29:40
the unions have basically written contracts that
protect their use of force the law is written in a
00:29:48
way that protects their use of force and so all of
it comes from to your point the defensive posture
00:29:54
of fear but if you actually tried to train these
people differently I think you'd have a different
00:29:59
outcome because what I can tell you is the police
in Canada do behave differently they don't reach
00:30:04
for their gun every second it's an interest
I think there's a very interesting example
00:30:09
and I know we don't want to like just take one
anecdotal incident and then you know make a big
00:30:15
sweeping generalization with it but if you look
at the gentleman in Atlanta who was shot in the
00:30:21
back twice Rasheed Brooks Rashard Rashard Brooks
Rashard Brooks this example to me is so a luxury
00:30:29
of the problem they spent 40 minutes talking with
this individual who was absolutely not a threat
00:30:38
they had frisked him they knew he was not armed
he was intoxicated he's in a drive-through of all
00:30:45
the ways you could have dealt with the situation
and I come from a family of police officers and I
00:30:52
can tell you a lot of stories about cops letting
people go obviously white people with warnings in
00:30:58
this situation letting him sleep it off taking
his keys letting him run away you know who it
00:31:03
is you have his driver's license you have his
car you have skis let him run away under what
00:31:08
circumstances would you feel justified shooting a
person when there were so many other options and I
00:31:13
it comes exactly I believe Chamath from two things
you pointed out one they're in a very defensive
00:31:19
position into the training they're trained to use
lethal force and if you're in a situation where
00:31:25
you feel threatened you just shoot that's it and
if you shoot you shoot to the center of the body
00:31:30
to kill the person and in their training they're
not trained to think how do i disarm the situation
00:31:37
defuse the situation and what are the other
options this person is obviously not a threat
00:31:42
and you knew the Taser was fired twice I'm not
saying the person should have resisted arrest I'm
00:31:46
not saying the person shouldn't have aimed that
the Taser at the person but they should be trained
00:31:51
to protect life and defuse situations at all costs
Jason like think about the incentives they should
00:31:57
have been trained maybe to just walk into the
Wendy's by this guy coffee and then drive him to
00:32:03
the motel that he said that he was staying at yes
or they should or they should have been trained to
00:32:08
just write a ticket and say listen here's a you
know here's a citation for being drunk because
00:32:13
you did technically kind of drive and I'm gonna
leave it alone they could have done many things
00:32:16
that they chose not to do because the incentive
was to you know project power in that situation
00:32:23
versus project any kind of empathy and compassion
right and and the selection of people who go into
00:32:28
the police department and I come from a family
of police officers and firefighters brother uncle
00:32:34
cousin grandfather up and down the line Irish cops
and firefighters big tradition of my family and I
00:32:43
can tell you that there is a contingent of people
who go into the police who are power-tripping or
00:32:49
maybe didn't get wherever else they wanted to be
in life and the job of seeing people in dealing
00:32:56
with the bad stuff that you pointed out you know
people in domestic domestic violence situations
00:33:02
people who are mentally ill homeless addicted
addiction problems all of that then trains these
00:33:10
peoples to see the worst in humanity and then
they just look at their job as just this dystopian
00:33:15
horrible experience and they are in that defense
of whereas we need to train people and I made this
00:33:23
tweet where we should have a new class of police
officer that is more like a Jedi Knight you know
00:33:29
they get paid twice as much they have master's
degree in social work of psychology and when that
00:33:34
call comes in for an emotionally disturbed
person a person who's intoxicated on drugs
00:33:40
a domestic violence situation you don't want to
send the average beat cop to that you want to send
00:33:45
the Jedi no but Jason make it even easier like
when you go in and again a 9-1-1 call and it's
00:33:51
you know there could be it's it's it's somebody
who's in sort of like mental distress or you're
00:33:55
gonna do a mental health check why don't you send
a really well-trained social worker absolutely and
00:34:03
the reason is why don't we have a whole you know a
whole force of social workers that we pay $100,000
00:34:09
a year absolutely and and that's what these police
officer making and there is an argument to not
00:34:15
have them armed there's an argument for them
to be armed but maybe they're so enlightened
00:34:20
and trained so well I think the training in the
United States is in the low hundreds of hours in
00:34:25
other countries it's thousands of hours I mean if
a person has a gun I think police should not get
00:34:31
their gun until they've completed maybe two or
three thousand hours on the job in other words
00:34:36
they get to their second or third year so the
first year when you're a Probie why even have a
00:34:39
gun why not just have them doing things without a
gun and then when you get that gun maybe you need
00:34:45
to have the equivalent of a master's degree you
know maybe you need to have a level of training
00:34:49
and we need to go to first principles like you're
saying trim off and rethink this whole thing in
00:34:53
any startup or any problem-solving you would
look at the show me the thousand calls how did
00:34:57
they break down what were the outcomes and if you
look at the outcomes of dealing with mentally ill
00:35:01
people or people who are addiction or domestic
disputes the outcomes are things that police are
00:35:08
not trained for that's got to be a very high
percentage of these situations let alone the
00:35:13
no-knock warrant which makes absolutely no sense
I mean I think I think there's there's just a lot
00:35:19
of look there's a lot of change coming I think
that there's a lot of legislation afoot at every
00:35:25
sort of level of government and I think the good
news is that it's going to be hard for people to
00:35:32
sit on their hands on I don't think it's going to
be universally across the country but I do think
00:35:37
that you know people will then again self select
and want to live in places where you know sort of
00:35:43
like the laws match their ideals and this is going
to be an area of tremendous reform and change you
00:35:50
know what's interesting about all of this is like
if you actually go back to the Republican ideology
00:35:54
it's interesting to me why Republicans aren't
the first ones to try to embrace rewriting you
00:36:00
know the union contracts and actually decreasing
unionized power because that's sort of like has
00:36:06
generally been 1/10 whole theme of Republican
ideology but then as it gets applied to cops I
00:36:12
think they kind of just abdicate responsibility
so there's a lot of reasons where you could have
00:36:15
bipartisan agreement on a bunch of these things
but again I think we're we're we kind of like get
00:36:21
caught up and we refuse to see the forest from the
trees and want to fix these things but I suspect
00:36:26
that a lot of these changes will happen just
because they're so bloody obvious and depending
00:36:32
on your ideology you can frame the same reason for
completely different motives and get to the same
00:36:39
answer yeah nobody nobody wants this Sachs what do
you think about the union issue as our token right
00:36:46
winger I think yeah I think I think the police
unions have too much power all the public employee
00:36:53
unions do I think you know just like the teachers
unions have thwarted school choice and education
00:36:59
reform I think we're seeing the police unions
toward a lot of sensible reforms around the use
00:37:03
of force you know I our our friend bill girl he's
been tweeting a lot of great research that around
00:37:11
police departments that are unionized there's a
lot more complaints against them there's a lot
00:37:16
more examples of the use of force and unwarranted
use of force and so clearly there's a connection
00:37:23
here between police unions and the forwarding of
common-sense reforms and I saw someone someone
00:37:31
tweeted this idea that you know the reason I
know is taking on the police unions is because
00:37:35
the Republicans see the word police and Democrats
see the word union and they're both fans of those
00:37:40
things and so who's who's gonna take them on yeah
I mean and teachers unions is the same thing and
00:37:47
the political system the political power of the
unions is so entrenched that in order to get in
00:37:54
office for in most cases you're going to need to
have the support of those unions and if you don't
00:37:59
they're going to tell people to explicitly not
to vote for you yeah I mean well well look I mean
00:38:03
you look at the cities that have had the biggest
problems here I mean starting with Minneapolis and
00:38:08
these are Democrat controlled cities these are
not you know Republican controlled cities and
00:38:13
the politicians are very much you know in cahoots
with the big Union the unions there including the
00:38:21
police and the teachers unions of all that and so
you know both parties need to to be open to reform
00:38:27
to your point David there's a there's a story that
came out last or last couple of days about the DA
00:38:35
in Atlanta who pressed charges against the two
officers but the narrative was about how the DA
00:38:42
is being investigated for getting a hundred
and forty K in kickbacks from a non-profit
00:38:47
tied to something and then he was claiming that
his main opponent who's right who could could
00:38:54
because these you know district attorneys are
politically elected officials right where she
00:38:59
had basically done a side deal with the police
to not to not go after you know use of force in
00:39:06
return for their endorsement and you know what
a what a horribly messy like complicated growth
00:39:12
situation irrespective of whoever turns out to
be right there so to your point they've become
00:39:17
so entrenched and it's just so low level that then
you know what should be obvious justice basically
00:39:24
just gets thrown away for what's expedient and
convenient yeah well you know this is another
00:39:29
example where like like with the mass I felt
like there were you know I wasn't violating
00:39:37
conservative principles I thought there really
was a conservative principle I think with you know
00:39:40
with with this example of the overuse of force by
police you go back to what Lord Acton said which
00:39:46
is power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely if there's no one standing up to
00:39:51
the police unions politically they have absolute
power and that's going to lead to corruption so I
00:39:57
do think like Republicans should be looking
into this now I think part of the reason
00:40:01
and why Republicans want to defend the police's
because we've also had these examples of looting
00:40:06
and rioting and lawlessness you know after the the
civil rights protests and I think that again we're
00:40:14
kind of dividing up and into sides and there's
too much justification of bad behavior on both
00:40:21
sides because of what the other side is doing you
know and I heard people on the Left justifying the
00:40:28
the looting and rioting on the grounds that you
know it was a legitimate expression of you know
00:40:34
opposition is a legitimate protest as a legitimate
expression of opposition to to the police violence
00:40:39
and I think that that is wrong and I think it's
wrong for people on the right to defend this
00:40:45
police the successive use of force by police on
the grounds that somehow it's justified because we
00:40:51
need to control the lawlessness and the rioting
and you know I think both are wrong and and we
00:40:57
lack a federal leadership to not make this overly
political but when Trump then tear gases with the
00:41:05
military protesters to go to a photo opportunity
you know it's sending the message that he want
00:41:11
and he wants to be the law and order president
now you're just charging things up instead of
00:41:16
just going on TV and just saying something to
bring people back to the concept that we're all
00:41:23
Americans we're all in this together and we rise
and fall together it's such an easy statement
00:41:27
listen the protesters have valid concerns we need
to work on this issue and yes if you see people
00:41:33
doing any vandalism you have we have to stop them
please make sure that doesn't happen because it
00:41:38
it works against the very valid criticism and
protests that are going on that need to go on
00:41:46
and in the fact that the president can't say that
is crazy well what do you guys think about what he
00:41:51
has been saying and how Twitter and Facebook have
basically taken different sides of Freiberg go
00:41:56
ahead where Trump's been saying yeah should food
should Twitter be censoring him / putting warnings
00:42:02
on his posts when he's like crazy I think so yeah
look I mean it's such a slippery slope and there's
00:42:08
too much room for interpretation I'm just saying
the obvious but you know if you're a platform
00:42:13
you're a platform you you let the things get built
on top of you sure you can have some some rules
00:42:18
around what can be built but as soon as you start
you know saying what is true and what is not true
00:42:25
and you become the arbiter of truth you're no
longer an agnostic platform and I think that you
00:42:32
know that is a big dangerous risk to take because
as you guys know something maybe and I think we
00:42:38
saw this with the what's that Twitter accounts
euro hedge was the pinnacle hedge they got an and
00:42:44
then they came back because it turns out what they
said wasn't necessarily as untrue with Twitter at
00:42:49
first thought that they were saying was untrue so
you know it was a great example of how you know a
00:42:54
point of interpretation can very quickly kind of
reverse course and you can look extremely biased
00:43:01
in making that decision at that time when the
YouTube took Susan Wojcicki took the what Jackie
00:43:07
took the position at YouTube that we're going to
allow people to talk about coronavirus if what
00:43:12
they're saying is in sync with the World Health
Organization yeah and by the way the World Health
00:43:17
Organization I've had an issue with since well
before Co vyd just from another life they I won't
00:43:24
get into it but they've said some stuff publicly
that was just flat-out [ __ ] wrong scientifically
00:43:29
and invalid and it was politicized and we we kind
of got to the root of the political driver behind
00:43:34
it so I've long held kind of disbelief in the
World Health Organization as a trusted source of
00:43:39
scientific fact and to Sax's previous point you
want to be able to check power and if the World
00:43:48
Health Organization is this incredibly powerful
organization who got it wrong with masks and
00:43:52
didn't even you know like David Sachs is getting
it right some venture capitalist in the Bay Area
00:43:57
gets it right about mask in the World Health
Organization gets it wrong well he's in Mexico but
00:44:01
yeah undisclosed location but okay Sachs should
they should they be putting labels and warnings
00:44:13
on politicians when they say things that are
consensus wrong yeah I mean call me old-fashioned
00:44:20
but I'm very much in favor of free speech and I'm
against censorship and you know fact-checking your
00:44:28
politicians you don't like is is a is basically
bias it's soft censorship I mean they're being
00:44:35
very selective in who they decide to fact-check
and you know there's no good way to do it right I
00:44:41
mean there is no truth API that they can just plug
in to fact-check people the way that you deal with
00:44:46
with bad speech is more speech I think it's a line
from Justice Brandeis that is the way historically
00:44:52
that we have in this country that we've dealt with
speech by people we don't like which is you have
00:44:57
more speech and and I I don't think censorship or
warnings is the right way to go mouth what do you
00:45:04
think having worked at Facebook okay I think it
exposes a couple things one is that the Twitter
00:45:10
product is is still relatively brittle I mean like
at least Facebook has a whole suite of emoticons
00:45:16
to say something is a crock of [ __ ] you know and
it makes you feel bad or you know makes you feel
00:45:22
angry or thumbs down or whatever and so Twitter's
reactionary feedback mechanism to its algorithms
00:45:29
is very brittle and so if you were gonna try to
algorithmically tune down the distribution of you
00:45:34
know a trump tweet you know you could see where
you could balance thumbs up or hearts in this case
00:45:40
with other ways of signaling that this is either
wrong or hate-filled or you know instigating and
00:45:48
and I think like a little bit more self policing
is probably the only scalable solution all of that
00:45:55
said here's what I will say I think basically
that Facebook is is becoming Middle America and
00:46:00
Twitter is becoming sort of the coasts and you
know Facebook is basically a product of Middle
00:46:08
America plus kind of like countries outside the
United States and fit you know Twitter's about you
00:46:13
know rich coastal kind of people and you can see
that the way that the content ABB's inflows and
00:46:20
you know the kind of content problems like just
for an example you know what is what is Twitter's
00:46:25
latest content problem it was that Donald Trump
tweeted a video from CNN that was doctored you
00:46:32
know and it and it only showed a clip of a you
know a black toddler running away from a white
00:46:36
toddler and the caption was you know the chyron
said something about racism it turned out to not
00:46:41
be wrong blah blah blah what is Facebook's issue
two days ago it was that you know the Boogaloo
00:46:46
movement which is you know a bunch of people who
believe in the militia and an impending Civil War
00:46:51
principally use Facebook and Facebook groups
to organize and they found out that they were
00:46:56
distributing and you know driving you know viewers
and usage and content so it just kind of tells you
00:47:03
like and if you break down the issues and you know
there's a there's a couple of people who tweet out
00:47:08
the most popular tweets on Twitter versus the
most popular content on Facebook what you see is
00:47:14
the left and right distribution and so I think
that the audiences are segregating themselves
00:47:19
into into into using products that basically feed
them what they want to hear well let me ask you a
00:47:25
question about the leadership we you work directly
with Zuckerberg for many years and we all know
00:47:31
jack from Twitter from various projects what is
Zuckerberg politics is he a secret trump supporter
00:47:42
is just Peter Thiel who's on the board and your
good friends would Peter Taylor and worked with
00:47:46
Peter Thiel Sachs I'm curious what you think goes
on inside the brain of Mark Zuckerberg in terms of
00:47:54
making these decisions is he scared that Facebook
has become dependent on the right and is that true
00:48:01
moth that it is a right thing and is he right or
left what is his politics I don't think that's the
00:48:07
right framing I think that if you're running a big
Network like this you have to remember the you you
00:48:13
know you're one of the five or six most valuable
companies in the world you yourself have you know
00:48:18
50 60 70 billion dollars basically the world is
your oyster and what you've seen over the last
00:48:24
five or six years is that there is an increasing
regulatory headwind and if you basically play the
00:48:31
game theory out you know these companies are gonna
get regulated and they're gonna get over tax and
00:48:37
they're gonna get kind of slowed down at a minimum
and broken up at the maximum and so if you're
00:48:41
running one of these companies I think the only
thing you can do is hold on and so if you're gonna
00:48:46
hold on there's no point in making any of these
changes because it minimized the amount of cash
00:48:50
you can make in the amount of you know support
you'll have so you might as well pick a side SF
00:48:55
effectively by doing nothing and waiting and I and
I and I think that's that's largely what all these
00:49:02
guys have decided to do they've essentially said
we're not gonna sort of take a side here well no
00:49:08
Twitter has taken a side Twitter because they're
small enough they can survive they're not going to
00:49:12
get broken up but if you're one of the top four
or five look at the position they've taken the
00:49:17
position they've taken is we have no position
that's Facebook's position we have no position
00:49:21
we're not gonna police adds no hold on it's also
Google's it's also Microsoft it's also apples and
00:49:27
it's also Amazon's and in fairness to Facebook all
big five tech companies have said our position is
00:49:32
no position and the reason is because that's
the only thing they can do to keep that market
00:49:36
cap and to hold on to the economic vibrancy of
their businesses for longer sex why did Twitter
00:49:43
and Jack actually take a position because this
cannot happen if jack is not a hundred percent
00:49:47
supportive of it he is the driver of it and the
person who okay's it and then what do you think
00:49:52
Zuckerberg bought didn't want to answer this but
I want you to try to answer it what is Zuckerberg
00:49:59
relationship with Peter TL and his thinking on
a political basis in your mind without you know
00:50:04
giving up your relationship with Peter about what
is his politics and and what is their relationship
00:50:09
well I I don't know exactly what sucks politics
are and or not even exactly I have no idea what
00:50:15
his politics are not remotely and I do remember
the time when Peter supported Trump during the
00:50:21
election and the rest of the board wanted to
run him off the board so clearly it's not like
00:50:25
I highly doubt Facebook as a bastion of right-wing
thinking but why would Zuckerberg keep him on the
00:50:31
board then in defiance of everybody else who hates
him maybe he simply believes that supporting the
00:50:38
Republican candidate and a presidential election
is not grounds for removal from a board maybe he
00:50:42
simply is not that intolerant I think I mean I'm
gonna actually go out on a limb here and defend
00:50:48
Zuckerberg a little bit which is my impression
of what Zuckerberg is trying to do is simply
00:50:54
maintain Facebook as a speech platform and you
know if you're gonna be a speech platform you're
00:50:59
going to be caught in the crosshairs of all these
very controversial debates and you know people
00:51:06
are gonna publish things that other people hate
in fact even that the majority hates but isn't
00:51:11
that the type of speech that the ACLU historically
defended you know it feels to me like there's been
00:51:16
a rise mainly on the left in terms of intolerance
for speech they don't like that they consider to
00:51:24
be 100 it sufficiently what yeah you saw that with
the New York Times newsroom I think you tweeted a
00:51:31
tweet storm from an opinion writer there is around
the the Tom cotton editorial which you know it's
00:51:36
not like I agreed with it but they kind of had
a they basically fire the opinion page editor
00:51:41
because they realized they published and by the
way sorry just to build on your point the title
00:51:46
which wasn't even written by Tom cotton was I
would say an order of magnitude worse than the
00:51:52
article if you read the whole article right but
the title was really offensive wasn't even written
00:51:58
by them who's written I think by the editor that
got fired but the article itself was kind of bad
00:52:03
but not nearly as bad as the title would she do
this because Freiberg twenty years ago when we
00:52:08
were all as Gen Xers coming up we were taught to
defend freedom of speech this is a core tenant
00:52:13
of a vibrant democracy and that you need to be
able to read unpopular opinions in fact the KKK
00:52:21
needs to be able to march down Main Street and
we need to protect that ugly speech in order
00:52:27
for everybody else to have it and here we have a
you know an editorial which obviously none of us
00:52:31
agree with is is is this an existential threat to
America that we are now going to say freedom of
00:52:40
speech is not a core tenant of the of the American
experiment I'm just looking for the term that was
00:52:47
used but what's the other New York Times opinion
writer I forgot her name static maybe you'll help
00:52:52
me but she talks about like a comfort culture
or so basically we used to pride ourselves on
00:52:59
a culture that enabled freedom of speech and and
and that was that was cherished and heralded and
00:53:06
what is cherished and heralded now is a culture
that protects people from hearing offensive and
00:53:14
scary things that they don't want to hear and
that shift you know those of us who are Gen
00:53:20
X which I think I am out born in 1980 into the
Millennial gems II and beyond kind of generation
00:53:27
has occurred and it is fundamentally changing the
the nature of how we find truth and how we find
00:53:35
you know coalesce around decisions as a society
and we're excluding the things that are offensive
00:53:42
and it's a little bit scary to think about from
my point of view that you know we can't explore
00:53:46
all options we can't hear all dissenting points of
view this is certainly a very deep argument about
00:53:53
how our society and our democracy operates but it
is happening and so the point was like we are we
00:54:00
are starting to shift towards valuing comfort
over over freedom of expression and and that's
00:54:06
that's just kind of the big the big change that's
occurring and look we do live in a democracy so
00:54:13
the votes are going to be what ultimately decides
what happens here votes in terms of who's using
00:54:18
Facebook versus Twitter and votes in terms of
who's voting for what presidential candidate and
00:54:23
what governor and what mayor and so we'll see you
know it's it's it's it's it's a it's a sea change
00:54:31
in how this democracy operate yeah I think it's a
sea change going back very far because the the the
00:54:37
whole principle of the Enlightenment going back
hundreds of years was stated by Voltaire which is
00:54:42
that I may disagree with what you have to say but
I'll defend to the death your right to say it who
00:54:47
today is willing to do that I mean that was the
the idea that led to political liberalisation in
00:54:54
the West it's really a unique feature of Western
democracies and liberalism you go to anywhere
00:55:02
else in the world I guarantee you people aren't
defending to the death your right to say things
00:55:08
they disagree with I don't think they're you know
I don't think she's you're paying a recruit and
00:55:12
is defending your right to hear things that
they don't want you to so you know this is
00:55:17
a very foundational part of of American and you
know Western political liberalism and it's being
00:55:25
challenged now and I think you know we should have
more self confidence in our ideas to worry so much
00:55:32
about Donald Trump's tweets which are ephemeral
be forgotten very soon that we're willing to
00:55:38
throw out freedom of speech well yeah I mean this
is the thing I don't understand about labeling
00:55:43
his tweets is you know I mean it's anybody not
think that this guy is hopped up on adderall or
00:55:50
a complete [ __ ] like or any of those things
like we all know he's an idiot who just tweets
00:55:54
50 times a day and he's too scared you know that
he's not gonna win his you know reelection and
00:55:59
that he's a real he's a little a reality store
so who do you mean by when you say we we all cuz
00:56:05
it's a different way that I think you're saying
that I think other people would be saying yeah
00:56:09
but we represent right I mean that's I think the
generational divide here is I don't know if it's
00:56:15
generational I think there's a lot of dimensions
across which these differences of perspective
00:56:19
occur and I've said this for amongst our group for
a long time but there's a huge difference between
00:56:23
a rural population and urban population in the
United States in terms of what their priorities
00:56:29
are and I think that difference in priorities
is unconscious and that's where things really
00:56:33
resonate that Trump says and that really moved
the needle for a lot of folks the priority of
00:56:39
civil rights is not as it might be an urban center
is not a priority in a rural center and in a rural
00:56:45
population there's a different priority Trump no
matter what how he says it the things he's saying
00:56:51
are different than what I'm tearing from the urban
population which is where the media comes from and
00:56:55
so on and so forth and so Trump resonates with
me I don't care if he sounds a little bit wacky
00:57:00
I need wacky cuz it needs to be different then
than standard and it's just there's a lot of
00:57:05
divides here and a lot of dimensions across yeah I
think I think that we absolutely should not throw
00:57:13
the baby out with the bathwater we should never
attack this very basic principle of free speech
00:57:18
because we will never forgive ourselves if we
do but then this is why I think we come back
00:57:24
to we should be a little bit more resilient to
build products and services that allow a little
00:57:36
bit more texture in the discussion so that you
actually can have free speech floor more in a
00:57:46
more transparent way so David to your point you
know how do you drown out you know hate speech
00:57:51
it's with more speech well these products don't
necessarily even enable that and so I do think
00:57:56
that we have this you know sort of an issue where
the products and services that billions of people
00:58:01
use to consume their information and construct a
worldview today they neither will allow things to
00:58:09
be flagged nor will they increment the feature
surface area so that you can actually have so
00:58:15
then that's why I think people then get into this
place where everybody feels cornered and nobody
00:58:22
likes what's happening and so I think that's kind
of what we're in I think that if we had a little
00:58:27
bit more ingenuity and thinking by the folks at
you know Twitter and Facebook it would go a long
00:58:32
long way yeah I do think there's something I mean
the conundrum of Twitter is simultaneously it's
00:58:40
the main way I get my news information but I also
see it as a huge source of groupthink and kind of
00:58:47
mob mentality and so you you know the more time
you spend on Twitter I mean I see a lot people
00:58:52
saying the more unhappy they are and so you do
wonder whether it's making you more informed or
00:58:57
whether it's just making you buy into some sort
of mass psychosis well it could be you could
00:59:02
becoming more informed and you could be going into
a psychosis which we have a lot of friends who are
00:59:07
high-profile who like their behavior on Twitter
is a separate thing than who they actually are
00:59:14
right like they just lose their [ __ ] on Twitter
and you know they the the is really a very strange
00:59:21
place to be sure can we talk by the way could we
just talk about this Bolton book I mean what the
00:59:31
[ __ ] I mean he he did ask you jimping to help
him win the election and he bartered buy soybeans
00:59:37
to help me win the election I mean this is insane
I think I think we need to we need to first of
00:59:46
all you always got a look at the source here so
I don't know how somebody commentator who's as
00:59:51
far right as you could go well who was picked by
Trump himself well he was a very weird choice for
00:59:58
Trump because one of the main reasons why Trump
won the Republican nomination as he promised
01:00:03
no more bushes meaning an end to these crazy vo
neocon wars of intervention and this guy bolton
01:00:11
like he's right out of that playbook yeah yeah
he's the like Hawk of hawks there's not a war
01:00:16
he doesn't want to get us into he wanted to get
us into our war with Iran they never made any
01:00:21
sense for Trump to hire them in the first place
so do you know why he hired him I stated in the
01:00:25
book I've heard I've heard the explanation that he
liked I think he said something like when when he
01:00:30
sends Bolton into a room he likes it he like he
thinks it strengthens this negotiating position
01:00:35
because the other side thinks that they were about
us is about to invade or something when born and
01:00:40
it's also Trump was like I love hearing you talk
eh just like FoxNews like that's the quote is so
01:00:46
he literally picks people base I mean and he
picked Ludlow right for his you know he picks
01:00:54
them based on being TV personalities I just think
this Bolton guy is like you know this is crazy
01:01:01
war hawk who also is this kind of like a weasel
and I don't know how he creates a 500 page book
01:01:08
out of spending 17 months in the White House
I guess he's writing down every I'm surprised
01:01:13
it's not five thousand yes that should be like
tokens Lord of the Rings trilogy I'm gonna put
01:01:19
this other if he can produce the note that Pompeo
gave him that said Trump is so full of [ __ ] that
01:01:26
thing at auction I'm telling you now what do you
each bid for it five hundred thousand dollars at
01:01:32
least five hundred thousand if that note actually
exists and he has it oh it's not I mean it's it's
01:01:38
but I just think to me first of all it's a
little ludicrous that this guy he is a bit
01:01:43
of a weasel because like where were you during the
impeachment a he made an economic calculation that
01:01:47
his book was more important than the future of the
country so first of all you know kind of go [ __ ]
01:01:52
go [ __ ] yourself to that but the the other thing
though is that you know be beyond his sort of like
01:01:58
character flaws it's just the story after story
after story it's just kind of from the bizarre to
01:02:06
be absurd like Finland's a part of Russia England
doesn't have nuclear weapons please buy so you you
01:02:12
are part of me you are part of the nuclear powers
UK really the United Kingdom has nukes Wow what
01:02:20
if India gets um it but every every one of these
insider tell-all books always makes the you know
01:02:25
always makes the president look bad I mean it's
not it's not a hard task was there anything though
01:02:30
that was surprising to anyone the XI Jingping
enough blockbuster vision thinking did catch me
01:02:35
off guard that he was that brazen and kind of sad
it's alright you I mean like like the fact that it
01:02:41
was said but like the motivation the attention no
to your point Mike my expectations are so low it's
01:02:49
it's like teaching a kid to poop in the toilet for
the first time you know as long as it doesn't poop
01:02:56
on the floor even if he does it in his diaper
you know everything looks like success as long
01:03:00
as there is just not raw feces on my hardwood if
he if he sat on the potty its success its success
01:03:08
even if the pants weren't pulled down if he poops
his pants everybody tell me about tell me about I
01:03:14
just want to switch topics tell me about vaccines
because it seems to me that there's like a growing
01:03:19
Court of people and I'm not gonna put moderna in
this camp but like maybe they did that were very
01:03:26
opportunistically out there generating a ton of
PR but what if you had to pick a time and a time
01:03:33
frame and then a manufacturing time frame can you
just tell me what was the over-under so we commit
01:03:39
we can bet aligned on it so there's gonna I think
there's gonna be a staged release of vaccines
01:03:44
that'll probably believe it or not starting q4
of this year and there's been production ramped
01:03:51
up going on in parallel to testing so you know to
get these vaccines produced whether you're talking
01:03:57
about the MRNA vaccine or you're talking about
the viral vaccine like they did in China which
01:04:02
they actually do have in production there's a
bunch of different challenges with scaling up
01:04:08
and ramping production and then you know what's
called downstream processing and filtering and
01:04:12
then packaging and all this stuff anyway it's a
it's a big [ __ ] exercise so what's gone on is
01:04:18
there's been a parallel effort to actually
scale up production of these things before
01:04:23
we've actually completed the testing them to make
sure that they're safe and efficacious and as a
01:04:28
result and some of this came out of that first
or second stimulus bill some of it came from
01:04:32
private funding and then other governments are
just straight up paying for it and so there are
01:04:37
a number of facilities that are actually ramping
production right now if they don't worry if the
01:04:41
vaccines ultimately don't pass muster just gonna
be a write-off of a couple billion dollars and
01:04:46
so theoretically we could have doses that are
available for distribution to healthcare workers
01:04:50
and frontline people in queue for this year's is
what I would kind of set the over-under at but do
01:04:55
you know do these vaccines are like flu vaccines
which is like fifty sixty percent effective at
01:05:00
best um yeah I don't really know the answer to
that I would say that these things are probably
01:05:07
pretty effective I would say the flu vaccine is
just a high rate of mutation and also a low rate
01:05:13
of utilization and a high rate of infection
so we're gonna have a lower rate of infection
01:05:16
probably a more moderate rate of mutation as
a result and so we should be more in control
01:05:22
if we get something that works with the current
strains and the way that this this SARS Coby to
01:05:29
the most of the vaccines are Deltora the seven
I think major targets around the spike protein
01:05:36
and in different epitopes across the spike protein
and so you know your if you see a great degree of
01:05:42
mutation across that protein it's likely going to
be less infected infective and less effective as
01:05:47
of that as a virus and so it'll go away and so
I think that we've got a really good shot here
01:05:52
what what are the odds that somebody politicizes
the vaccine and America doesn't get it doesn't get
01:06:01
it Oh place is a 100% yeah yeah I mean look we
politicize [ __ ] Meisel 30% of people of kids
01:06:07
now aren't getting vaccinated for measles which
is crazy another's measles outbreaks happening
01:06:11
in the US which is just you know mind-boggling
so that's just happening in Marin where you are
01:06:15
yeah that's it easy the highest percentage of
graduate degrees in the country yeah no but I
01:06:25
mean it's it's inevitable 'ti that they get SARS
but David like how does how does the distribution
01:06:29
of these vaccines work meaning like let's just
let's just say that it's like Sanofi for example
01:06:35
because I saw that the French government made a
large investment and the Germans did as well to
01:06:39
essentially like onshore a bunch of their you know
companies who had promising vaccine candidates and
01:06:48
so if you assume that there's a distribution of
these vaccines let's just say the most efficacious
01:06:51
ones in China are they just gonna dole this out
to whoever's willing to buy it or they're gonna
01:06:56
decide on a political basis how to basically give
these and then when they come to the United States
01:07:00
how do we know that it comes to Texas before it
comes to Wyoming versus California versus New
01:07:05
York so I think the ones that are getting federal
support which all of them are pretty much at this
01:07:10
point are you know going to be federally mandated
in terms of distribution and it's probably some
01:07:15
commercial agreement that none of us have seen in
terms of like what that looks like so chocolate
01:07:20
into the swing states where he's behind is what
you're saying well I think this I think it'll
01:07:24
probably be delegated down to Health and Human
Services what are the chances that there's a
01:07:28
trump logo on the side of the your Trump vaccine
there's a Trump vaccine to save your life okay is
01:07:35
a good point for us to kind of wrap around the
horn choo moth and I think a lot of people were
01:07:40
convinced that Trump was gonna sail into office
now everything is showing you Fox News poll CNBC
01:07:48
polls SurveyMonkey polls that Trump is very far
behind especially in the swing states what are
01:07:55
the chances Trump wins the election sacks I think
he's well I think kovetz really hurt him because
01:08:04
the sort of feather in his cap the thing it really
I going for him was the economy that's been hurt
01:08:09
but it's coming back you know the situation could
look very different six months from now right
01:08:14
now it looks pretty bleak because I do think that
his reaction to the the crisis was seen as a very
01:08:20
inflammatory but I think six months from now could
be arriving a story five months so so you don't
01:08:26
think he's gonna win right now but you're today if
the election were today he would lose but you know
01:08:34
the economy we're seeing a v-shaped recovery which
i think is surprising all of us and if that holds
01:08:40
up and we get past the civil unrest that we've had
and you know peace offspring's so inflammatory on
01:08:48
those issues i think that you know the situation
could look very different in five months you got
01:08:52
to remember the other thing which is Biden at
some point is going to have to enter it to some
01:08:57
presidential debates and you know doesn't know if
he's gonna be there what you're saying cognitively
01:09:03
yeah I mean that's to talk about but you actually
think there's a cognitive issue yes or no probably
01:09:09
yeah it's uncomfortable to say for some reason
yeah but it's I mean at a minimum look I there's
01:09:16
a problem with the way he speaks I don't know
if there's a which is indicative of a problem
01:09:21
with the way he thinks but you know like when
if they're on stage for two hours in the debate
01:09:26
I think we're gonna find out really quick and I
and I think those debates are pretty unavoidable
01:09:31
I don't think Bynes can go to figure out a way to
get out of it so you know I think a lot of people
01:09:36
think that he can just be propped up by a staff
and they can to some extent but I think at some
01:09:42
point you know we're gonna have to take a look at
your Biden shabbath Trump wins Trump loses right
01:09:52
now it's sort of 75 25 he loses okay I think
that's gonna get closer to 55 45 as the date
01:10:01
comes close I think it actually comes down to
two issues number one is who does Biden pick as
01:10:08
a running mate and can you lock up the the swing
states with that running mate and number two which
01:10:18
i think is probably going to play an enormous role
if if the community organizing that saw the black
01:10:25
lives matter movement get to this next level is
avoiding and preventing voter suppression you
01:10:34
know LeBron I think is about to start an enormous
campaign with a lot of very well-heeled well-known
01:10:40
celebrities to get out the vote but if there's
a concerted effort to prevent voter suppression
01:10:46
and get young people and people of color to the
polls it's a Biden landslide but now we've gone
01:10:55
from a trump landslide just six months ago in all
of our minds to a Biden landslide Freiburg where
01:11:01
are you at I still think Chrome's gonna win I'd
say 70% chance Trump wins and I'll tell you why
01:11:08
I think there's still there's not going to be
structural improvement between now and November
01:11:14
for the majority of people that voted for Trump
in the last election there are going to be a large
01:11:21
number of people in blue-collar and rural areas
that remain challenged with their life and feel
01:11:28
like they're missing out and they're missing and
and this may even be true in inner-city districts
01:11:33
but but the big kind of flip vote in the rural
and blue-collar areas is gonna say I still need
01:11:39
change I need things fixed and Trump is the agent
of change Biden he has always been the agent of
01:11:45
change and I'll tell you the other things that
he's also a master of he's laying blame and so
01:11:50
Trump is incredible at pointing a finger at some
third party and saying that's the enemy I'm the
01:11:55
guy who's gonna go defeat him for a year and I
think that's what won in the election last time
01:11:59
and I think it could win it might be elected
again this time no matter what [ __ ] happens
01:12:03
between now and November he will find a way
to make the story about how some third party
01:12:08
or some process or some deep state it's still
responsible for that outcome that's keeping you
01:12:13
down mr. blue-collar factory worker and I will
be the person to vanquish that problem Biden is
01:12:19
the old state he's the old guard he's the guy
from before and we haven't changed anything in
01:12:24
the last four years where people feel happy and
secure about their lives I think to Sax's point
01:12:28
if the economy was even stronger it may hurt
Trump's chances sure a lot of folks might say
01:12:34
great Trump's responsible let's give them a thumbs
up but the more people are feeling pain the more
01:12:39
they're looking for an agent of change and I
think scrumpy against Biden is still gonna be
01:12:43
that agent it makes me the deciding either tie or
swing vote I believe Biden wins I believe Trump
01:12:50
is absolutely lost his ability to win this because
he made two critical errors two saxes very astute
01:12:59
point he just complete blunder on wearing masks
and leadership during kovat and complete blunder
01:13:05
in terms of dealing with the social unrest which
he could have acted as an reconciliation agent
01:13:10
and he's his own worst enemy and couldn't do
those two very simple things I think Biden
01:13:14
wins big if he takes the following strategy
which I will call the Avenger strategy which
01:13:20
is it's not just about him he gets an incredible
running mate to Tremont's point but not only that
01:13:26
he pre announces his cabinet Avenger style and
they start hosting hala Cuomo in New York daily
01:13:35
briefings where they talk about what the country
needs to do with a brain trust in a round table
01:13:41
with five or six people pre-selected so you're not
voting for Biden who might have cognitive issues
01:13:48
and Sachs is correct he could fumble under Trump's
greatest strength which is demolishing people in
01:13:56
debates which we ourselves all watched we watched
Hillary get absolutely beat up in those debates
01:14:03
and that was our I remember those nights when we
were watching about your house cometh and we our
01:14:07
eyes opened right up like holy cow Hillary's in
trouble here he's just really good at this type of
01:14:14
maniac boxing that he does with little mark Rubio
and everybody else here nightly but if he picks
01:14:21
the right VP candidate and I want to know as we
close here who is the VP candidate that you think
01:14:27
he should pick Amy Klobuchar are just bowed out
and said a woman is not enough you need to have
01:14:34
a black woman so Chamath who is the ideal running
mate Sachs who scares you the most since you know
01:14:42
the GOP is gonna lose this time around who's the
scariest for you and Freiberg who do you think you
01:14:47
should pick give it some thought or you do not
have a consensus choice I'll leave my statement
01:14:53
to the end okay sack C poop you know like this and
pick somebody you want him to pick cause it helps
01:14:59
him lose well III don't know the the backbencher
Democrat politicians well enough to say exactly I
01:15:05
don't have a pick I would just say I would really
like for him to pick a great crisis manager an
01:15:10
operator somebody who's been there somebody
who's been tested in a crisis because there's
01:15:15
a very high chance that this VP pick will become
the president given Biden's age and everything
01:15:21
going on in the world and we've just seen crisis
after crisis this year I think there's gonna be
01:15:26
more shoes to drop and this person that we don't
even know yet could very easily be the president
01:15:31
itíd states in the next two years so I just hope
you pick someone who is good at handling a crisis
01:15:35
okay so that would mean Oprah perhaps God you just
pick my five is that really her picture oh yeah
01:15:44
yeah Oprah Winfrey I mean she would be she would
be incredible oh my god what a wild every state
01:15:54
oh she's incredible Oprah Winfrey for the win I
mean if you're gonna pick somebody Biden Winfrey
01:16:02
it's got a red got so many dunks a slam dunk I'm
sorry better than Michelle Obama a.m. dunk better
01:16:07
than Michelle Obama slam dunk I'm gonna email
blinken and Evan Ryan right now Oprah Winfrey
01:16:14
okay Freiberg you have a better candidate who's
your choice provider III don't have I don't have a
01:16:19
choice I mean I'm not gonna make a choice here but
I I think the challenge he's gonna face is finding
01:16:25
a black woman who can appeal to the blue-collar
and rural vote in these areas where he needs to
01:16:29
kind of win some win some folks over and so he's
going to end up in these urban districts like the
01:16:35
Atlanta mayor or like Kamala Harris and they're
they're not gonna they're not gonna bring that
01:16:41
vote so he isn't a little bit of a pickle here
because the Amy Klobuchar hour helped him bridge
01:16:46
the rural divide but you know he's got a he's got
a I do I named this there's gonna be a bit of a
01:16:52
search here the idea of going with Oprah because
it just becomes she is such a reconciler now it
01:17:02
doesn't fit the execution in a crisis to Sax's
desire and I had actually just build a bigger
01:17:09
business Trump I mean what do you but that is what
is about to get to is I think she's so successful
01:17:13
and she's such a great leader and so charismatic
she would bring in better operators than Trump and
01:17:21
pence ever could I mean look at the shitshow of
people who came in and out of the cabinet it was
01:17:25
one goofball an incompetent [ __ ] after another
sorry to get a little frisky here at the end but I
01:17:32
feel like we're at the poker game Trump's cabinet
was in an embarrassment almost universally correct
01:17:38
sacks well look I here's the problem with Oprah or
if you want you know any other Hollywood celebrity
01:17:46
a George Clooney or what have you they're just
they're not used to getting beat up the way that
01:17:51
politicians in our country get beat up you know
they're used to having people catering to them
01:17:55
they're used to having the star trailer and the
star treatment and you know they tend to have
01:18:00
a glass jaw and politics Pacifica's never been
put in an environment where there's constantly
01:18:03
assaulted Trump I mean was a celebrity but he was
used to he kind of grew up in that whole New York
01:18:10
tabloid environment and was used to punching and
Counting embraced it in fact he was his own fake
01:18:16
PR person he was ruling the post yeah it's you
know said old saying about you know wrestling
01:18:21
with a pig you know everyone gets dirty but the
pig likes it I mean Trump is kind of like the
01:18:25
pig who likes it you know mostly celebrities don't
like having to get beat up you know they're used
01:18:31
to being very popular and and that's why they
tend to be I think tough picks politically is
01:18:38
they don't they tend to have a glass jaw all
right on that like free Biden winfrey love
01:18:44
you let's play poker outside we'll see you
all next time on the all end podcast bye-bye
