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[Music]
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[Music]
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it's a pleasure to have this opportunity
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to talk with you both CB and shenar uh I
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really enjoyed reading your book on
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corporate responsibility I think it
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offers a great uh framework uh and a
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strong evidentiary base spanning lab
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experiments the recent headlines
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Financial economics um I guess I'd like
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to start by asking you why you think
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CEOs board members stakeholders more
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broadly are increasingly focused on
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corporate responsibility and hungry uh
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for the kind of framework that you
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provide in this
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book one of the reasons is that
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stakeholders today are increasingly
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conscious of not just buying a good
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product but also kind of where does the
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product come from so who's the company
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that stands behind the product so that's
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something that we've seen in the
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consumer space and so they increasing
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pressure on companies to kind of deliver
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and make themselves you know look
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responsible in in the eyes of the market
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the same way employees today they don't
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want just a paycheck I mean they want
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something more from a company they want
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a sense of fulfillment of in terms of
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where they work so companies again you
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know even in a reactive mode they have
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to kind of you know uh get into the act
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of of being good corporate citizens uh
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investors as an investor movement as
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well uh so multiple stakeholders have um
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or you can say society as a whole have
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kind of uh risen up to the idea that we
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need to um be more responsible as
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organizations um and as corporate
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citizens and all of that has put kind of
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of course the the global warming and and
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the climate change movement all of this
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the human rights Everything Has Come
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Together to kind of suddenly catapult
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corporate responsibility I guess uh to
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the Forefront great and what motivated
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you personally to meet this Demand by
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writing this book how did you personally
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become interested in the
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topic I met the CEO of Ben and Jerry's
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uh Ben Goen a long time ago in the
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mid90s and he asked a very interesting
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question of me and he said can you tell
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me whether consumers would buy our brand
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rather than a competitor's brand because
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of the things that we are doing in the
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social and environmental realm uh being
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a marketing scholar this was clearly a
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marketing question but I had never
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thought of you know social
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responsibility as a driver of of
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consumer purchase and that's when I
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looked to my good friend here and I said
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okay maybe we need to kind of do
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something about this and indeed that was
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our our U first kind of dive into into
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this area of corporate responsibility
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and how stakeholders react to company's
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corporate responsibility initiatives
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over the years there are many other
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companies who came to us with similar uh
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questions you know uh PNG General Mills
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uh Target Denon I mean all of these
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companies kind of had seemed to have
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similar questions in mind and so our
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body of work just kind of kept growing
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plus there were the the whole
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theoretical space was wide open so there
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was question after question that one
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could answer and at some point it looked
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like hey I mean we've got you know a
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portfolio here that perhaps we can
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distill kind of and and disseminate the
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findings to you know to to a wider
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audience than just those who read
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scholarly journals and I think as an
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academic one of the things I saw um that
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was missing the space is what CB talked
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about which is uh the lack of an
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academic or conceptual uh uh perspective
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and rigor to a lot of the work that I
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was seeing and we were seeing in in this
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area and so we we thought that was a
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really interesting opportunity to kind
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of bring some of that as academics given
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our unique backgrounds to the to the
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questions that were raised in this area
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so do you think the the two main
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differences between this book and some
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of the other pieces in the field are
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this academic focus and the marketing as
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a discipline um or are there other key
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dri key differentiators of the book
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those are two of the key ones yes I mean
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the stakeholder perspective is is of
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course I think um a big differentiator
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of of this book from others no one
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really has or prior to this no one
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really had studied consumers and
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employees to find out kind of from the
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eyes of the beholder if you will kind of
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you know what do they feel about a
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company's um corporate responsibility um
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if you look at websites every company
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says that they're doing great work and
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fantastic work uh but this was an
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opportunity to kind of look at it from
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from the other side and what we found
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was uh as you can tell from the book um
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quite quite quite telling so I would add
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to that the you know the the fact that
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we're looking at it through the lens of
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the stakeholder is a big
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differentiator I was curious about the
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labeling there's so many top uh labels
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turned around responsibility social
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responsibility sustain ability uh how do
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you differentiate corporate
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responsibility uh from some of these
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other um some of these other topics
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these other
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labels
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uh the way I address it typically is
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that corporate responsibility is U kind
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of a means to an end and and the end
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would really be sustainability where we
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are thinking of uh the people the planet
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and as businesses of course we're
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thinking of profit so that triple bottom
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line is where we want to get to
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and companies are but one of the agents
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that can kind of take us there and when
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companies engage in what it takes to get
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to fulfill that triple bottom line uh we
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call that corporate responsibility we
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we've clarified that kind of in the book
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in in in very simple terms and because
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we are not dealing with the the other
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actors such as responsible consumerism I
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mean that's a big field in of itself
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that's that's emerging now um you know
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or or or any uh social entrepreneurship
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which is another thing that's kind of
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leading into it we figured that
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corporate responsibility was perhaps the
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best label um and the most honest label
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for for us in this book okay um you
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ground a lot of the analysis in the book
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at the level of the individual uh
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drawing on psychological research and
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experiments uh including many that
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you've conducted yourself uh could you
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highlight some of the key insights that
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come out of this research for people who
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are interested in corporate
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responsibility um well we we from the
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very beginning we took a very contingent
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approach in trying to understand
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stakeholder reactions our basic premise
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was that not everyone is going to react
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the same way which is very consistent
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with our understanding of how human
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beings behave and think and react to not
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only what companies do but what happens
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in the world around them so uh in that
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sense uh so that's the approach that we
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took and what we found were uh as it
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summarized in the book there was some
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key insights the first is that uh a lot
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of the people we talk to are not really
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fully understanding of what exactly
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companies were doing so awareness was
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very low uh we found that uh even when
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they knew what was happening there were
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certain dimensions of their
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understanding that really mattered when
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it came to how stakeholders at
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particular consumers React to what
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companies do uh that included uh things
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like uh what kind of attributions they
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made about why a company is doing what
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it's doing which is very key as you know
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in this space uh it also related to uh
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what expectations they had coming into
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what a company should be doing so those
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were some of the things and then um uh
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finally one of the key things that we
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thought really ma what we found really
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mattered is uh are are the the consumers
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feeling that what the companies are
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doing really does something for them
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personally and that's very much in line
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with the entire uh uh perspective on
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consumer needs and things like that so
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um I would say those are the key things
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anything else yeah I mean in simple
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terms we were able to distill this into
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the form of of a of of a model um that
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folks might find easier to remember and
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we call it the three use model and and
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we label them understanding usefulness
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and unity and unity is really the sense
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of belongingness between the company and
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the individual uh which drives outcomes
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such as kind of loyalty positive word of
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mouth resilience to negative information
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so we studied outcomes that are really
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of interest to to businesses I mean they
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and uh businesses have been coveting
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these outcomes for a long time and what
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we are able to do through this uh micr
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psychological perspective is we are able
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to show that corporate responsibility
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indeed can contribute to these outcomes
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even when you hold you know all else all
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else all else constant so we are able to
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show Fairly convincingly that this is an
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additional driver of kind of you know uh
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marketing uh and and business coveted
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coveted outcomes one of the things
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that's interesting is you're able to
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draw a contrast you're able to say it's
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not just what the company is doing that
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may or may not be responsible but how
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it's perceived uh and so the perceptions
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among consumers and employees are really
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what drives outcomes um that gives a
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real prominence to the media strategy
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and the communication strategy uh that
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the company employs can you speak a
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little bit about your findings there
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yeah I mean communication becomes
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absolutely key I mean as I said one
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thing was that first of all we found
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awareness to be low and a very simple
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truth is that if people don't know what
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you're doing there is no way that they
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can reward you so companies will have to
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work on increasing that awareness
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however that's a slippery slope because
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in our research we found that you know
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stakeholders often times uh you know
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receive these messages as kind of
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propaganda from from from companies or
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self-promotion so one of the
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implications that we kind of highlight
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in the book is that when it comes to
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talking about your corporate
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responsibility you know tell don't sell
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so so don't try to make more of it than
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you actually have uh but rather give the
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facts out there what we find is that
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stakeholders really want companies to be
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outcome focused rather than input
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focused and what that means is that in
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uh don't say that we are spending
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hundreds of millions of dollars on on
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solving this crisis but rather say that
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we've actually saved 100 lives or or
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we've kept you know 200 people warm from
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the cold winter so if you focus on what
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you've achieved as a company in the
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corporate responsibility realm that
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makes a much bigger difference than kind
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of if you just keep on saying that yes
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we are you know we we are trying so we
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do list these implications um which you
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know if companies follow that in their
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communication strategy and media
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strategy I think they can navigate
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what's a reasonably complicated path
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it's not straightforward because you
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know unlike advertising which which
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everybody accepts as okay I mean
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Company's trying to sell stuff in when
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it comes to corporate responsibility um
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there's far more skepticism and and what
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we are able to to do in in the
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communication strategies is we are
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suggesting kind of ways to to to
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navigate this path and uh achieve kind
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of a a good outcome for the companies
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the the one thing I would add to that is
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uh also in terms of communication one of
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the things we found is that if you can
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really address in your Communications
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what is it that you're doing in terms of
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the needs of your consumer your
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stakeholders and if you can address that
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very clearly I don't know if you
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remember the shell example that we had
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in uh one of the earlier chapters where
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uh we think one of the key uh issues
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there was that they did not really think
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about okay what is it that the this
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community needs as we're trying to do
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good in the environmental space and they
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didn't communicate that
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effectively so and in what form of media
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I mean are we talking about using U
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broadcast media using printed media
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using social media how do you integrate
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these these different forms of the
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communication strategy to Target
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individual stakeholders with the message
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of the outcomes and your uh your efforts
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in this
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area I I think it spans all of them uh
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in our book at this point we did not get
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into that level of the kind of the media
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planning strategy and and kind of at
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what point um or or with which Target
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segment a particular media strategy
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might be more effective um than another
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I think that would have to be kind of on
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a case-by Case basis depending on on the
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company and and and the context um if
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you look at the real world I mean there
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is a fair amount of print media as far
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as corporate responsibility is concerned
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and that's clearly an important one
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because people do get a little bit of
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time to kind of process the information
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that's given uh but social media clearly
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you know um things like uh Facebook and
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so on have have become also increasingly
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prominent um I don't think that what
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have the the implications that we've
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come up with are kind of more applicable
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to a certain form of media or less
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applicable to a certain form of media
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but rather I think it's best to say that
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we would work that out depending on a
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particular company context and I think
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one of the key points we make is that
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when it comes to your media strategy you
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have to again segment you know your
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stakeholders in your market in terms of
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you know what messages you want to go to
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which group at what stage of the
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evolution of your uh corporate
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responsibility
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initiatives um uh so you know if you
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take if you take Nestle as an example
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you know they they identify thought
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leaders in the space and they send them
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personal Communications whereas they
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might put out General ads and then they
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have their corporate responsibility
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reports so it's really a mixture of and
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then they have to address you know if an
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NGO attacks them in the social media
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space they'd have to be Savvy enough to
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to um you know address that issue in
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that space
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um throughout the book you you provide a
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wealth of of great anecdotes and
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experiences of individual companies with
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with whom you've worked I wonder how
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different you feel the the the
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perception and the Sea Suite is about
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the respons the importance of
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sustainability corporate responsibility
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uh from the classroom from future
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managers and and what explains that
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Gap well you know evidence recent
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evidence suggests that the SE Suite is
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uh taking notice of of of what's going
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on and there was a recent stud by
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accenta that was actually published in
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Business Week where they surveyed um
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CEOs and seite U managers and they all
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had very um strong unequivocal concerns
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about kind of uh sustainability and the
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important role that sustainability would
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would play kind of in the um um in the
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corporate world kind of in in the years
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to come um are they actually going to
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take note of the details no perhaps not
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so for them the message is very simple
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from our book I think for the sea Suite
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that the message is that the only way
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corporate responsibility makes uh a
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difference both to society as well as to
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the bottom line of the company is if it
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is fully integrated into the strategy of
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the company that it ought not to be kind
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of a Bolton and um you know if if you
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give it that respect and if you if you
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think about it similar to what you would
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think about your business strategy
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overall then and only then can you
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actually create create value and one
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important message that we emphasize is
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that the only way to creating value
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through corporate responsibility U
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business value through corporate
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responsibility is to create social value
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first so creating social value when I
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say social I mean environmental as well
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so creating social and or environmental
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value is a prerequisite to creating
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business value through corporate
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responsibility in other words there are
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no shortcuts and if if this is a message
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that we can actually communicate to the
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SE Suite in in simple terms and I have
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some tangible examples of where managers
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have taken one slide kind of you know
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from from our presentation and say okay
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this is the one we're going to show um
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and uh then I think you know all they
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need to do is to then you know give give
00:16:12
go down the chain of command and say
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okay guys we need to think about this uh
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a little bit differently and uh then
00:16:18
hopefully we'll make a difference so the
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this um Bears a lot of similarity to
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Michael Porter's recent work on shared
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value with Mark Kramer um it's a
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seductive appeal to say we can do do
00:16:29
well create profits and create value for
00:16:31
all stakeholders but at the end of the
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day we also have to capture that value
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uh for our shareholders capture our
00:16:36
share of it uh if we just create social
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uh welfare if we just create uh total
00:16:41
benefits uh how do we know that in the
00:16:43
end we'll sustain ourselves as a company
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so what advice do you have in terms of
00:16:47
making sure that the company captures
00:16:48
its share of the value it's creating as
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opposed to it all being distributed to
00:16:52
external
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stakeholders in the approach we take I
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mean if if you think about the outcomes
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that we study I mean you know if if a
00:17:02
consumer is more loyal to the company's
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products or says good things about the
00:17:09
company then that value is acing to to
00:17:13
to the company I mean in in our
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framework there is we we are looking at
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social value and environmental value and
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we're looking at um you know business
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value so and our models and and
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uh statistical models as as well as the
00:17:30
conceptual Frameworks are able to
00:17:32
demarcate you know between between the
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the the creating value for the society
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part as well as creating value for for
00:17:40
the company part uh so when an employee
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basically stays longer at the company or
00:17:44
is going to be more productive which we
00:17:46
also able to show statistically then
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that value is essentially being you know
00:17:51
uh is is essentially being captured or
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is acing to to to the company and we
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don't see that Danger of of it being
00:17:59
lost I think it comes back to the basic
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premise of our book which is that there
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is a demand for for uh corporate
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responsibility and sustainability from
00:18:09
the companies from the external
00:18:10
stakeholders and so if a company does
00:18:14
that then the stakeholders will reward
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them because their needs are being
00:18:18
fulfilled it's also obvious from reading
00:18:20
the book that you're drawing a lot on
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statistical studies lab experiments I
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wonder you know if there's one that you
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think is uh particularly powerful that
00:18:27
you'd like to share with us uh and share
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with the
00:18:29
audience one all right well you start
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the one the one that stands out for me
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always uh is the work that we did with
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uh yogurt companies yogurt brands um we
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we
00:18:41
contrasted uh Stony field which is very
00:18:44
well known for its work in the uh
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corporate responsibility space with
00:18:49
other brands which actually are you
00:18:51
could argue equally involved but are not
00:18:55
really positioned completely or not
00:18:57
fully identified with that and what we
00:19:00
found was very interesting um in that uh
00:19:04
the consumers of Stonyfield felt much
00:19:07
closer to the brand identified felt more
00:19:10
Unity with the brand and ultimately
00:19:13
rewarded the brand more than consumers
00:19:14
of the other brands even though all the
00:19:16
other brands uh were quite actively
00:19:19
engaged in corporate responsibility and
00:19:21
I think to me that really encapsulates
00:19:24
the essence of the book uh which is that
00:19:27
you know if you really understand your
00:19:29
stakeholders if you really know what
00:19:30
they're looking for and if you can uh
00:19:33
deliver on that as part of your
00:19:34
corporate responsibility uh initiatives
00:19:38
then that's going to going back to your
00:19:40
previous question that's going to uh
00:19:43
help you capture more of the value from
00:19:45
it than if you're just kind of doing it
00:19:47
in a sort of scatter shock way let me
00:19:50
add a quick one if I may and this is a
00:19:53
different methodology and this was a
00:19:54
secondary uh data study where uh with
00:19:58
another co-author actually uh uh not the
00:20:01
three who wrote the book but with
00:20:02
another co-author I studied uh Fortune
00:20:04
1,000 companies and what we did was we
00:20:07
related corporate responsibility to the
00:20:09
market value of the firm and what we
00:20:11
found there was that there was these
00:20:13
interesting interactions between
00:20:14
corporate responsibility and the product
00:20:17
quality of the firm and and
00:20:18
innovativeness of the firm and this data
00:20:20
we got from Fortune's most admired
00:20:22
companies and it turned out that you
00:20:24
know corporate responsibility you know
00:20:27
positively contributed to market value
00:20:30
only in those contexts where the firm
00:20:32
was perceived to have good product
00:20:34
quality and was perceived to be
00:20:35
Innovative uh which is interesting
00:20:37
because it shows that mere engagement in
00:20:39
corporate responsibility does not
00:20:41
necessarily yield to kind of you know uh
00:20:43
Better Business returns for for for the
00:20:45
company but you have to as a company you
00:20:48
have to have your house in order so to
00:20:50
speak and you have to make sure that you
00:20:52
know the fundamentals such as product
00:20:54
quality and Innovation uh must be also
00:20:57
up to Snuff you know before a firm goes
00:20:59
out and kind of engages in in in in
00:21:01
corporate responsibility so this one
00:21:03
helps to tie the role of corporate
00:21:06
responsibility with other kind of
00:21:08
strategic elements of the firm in in a
00:21:10
very nice way and again kind of makes it
00:21:12
easier to for for Senior Management to
00:21:15
see why corporate responsibility
00:21:17
actually needs to be integrated into the
00:21:18
business strategy great um what do you
00:21:21
think is the most important Point uh
00:21:22
managers need to remember about
00:21:23
corporate responsibility uh that should
00:21:25
guide their actions today and in the
00:21:27
future
00:21:29
okay
00:21:31
um they should they should basically
00:21:33
remember that again corporate
00:21:36
responsibility has to be thought of in
00:21:38
terms of a long run strategy that it
00:21:41
it's not something that gives immediate
00:21:43
returns you cannot make a difference uh
00:21:46
in the immediate run and you have to
00:21:49
kind of um work hard at it so if there's
00:21:52
one thing we learned from the book is
00:21:54
that it pays to be responsible only when
00:21:59
your stakeholders perceive that there's
00:22:02
some difference that you're making to
00:22:03
the community and and and to the
00:22:05
environment so the sincerity of the firm
00:22:09
um is kind of you know is absolutely has
00:22:12
to be U unquestionably there and if you
00:22:16
make that difference then and only then
00:22:18
can you can you reap reap the value so
00:22:20
we say that there is value to be
00:22:22
extracted but it's not it's not kind of
00:22:26
you know um there to be grabbed it's
00:22:28
it's not simple so you have to kind of
00:22:30
work hard and make a difference to
00:22:32
society and the environment to kind of
00:22:34
kind of get that value out but it's a
00:22:36
win-win for for all so the triple bottom
00:22:39
line is not a zero sum game in other
00:22:41
words which is seems to be kind of a
00:22:44
belief in the in the corporate world
00:22:45
that if we do uh invest in corporate
00:22:48
responsibility we're doing that at the
00:22:50
cost of our business I think our book
00:22:51
clearly shows that that's that's not the
00:22:53
case and the only thing I would add to
00:22:55
that is
00:22:56
um understand and respond to your
00:22:59
stakeholders and it's easy to say but
00:23:02
it's I think quite challenging at the
00:23:04
operational level and I think if
00:23:06
companies can figure out how to do that
00:23:08
effectively um I think that would make a
00:23:10
big
00:23:11
difference thank you very much thank you
00:23:14
thank you for having us
00:23:22
[Music]
