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you know the idea that the world is just
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so convenient for everyone in the
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business world that you know doing
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what's kind of maximally good from the
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perspective of profit making will just
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always be consistent with kind of doing
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their part from a moral perspective to
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kind of address the threat of climate
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change this seems so improbable that
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there's just no good reason to believe
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it right I mean there's no evidence that
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tends to be kind of presented for this
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it's generally kind of Highly
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speculative
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welcome to the ripple effect the podcast
00:00:32
that takes you on a journey through the
00:00:34
minds of work and faculty I'm your host
00:00:36
Dan Loney and in each episode we'll be
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diving deep into the inspiration behind
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the groundbreaking research that Wharton
00:00:43
professors have conducted and exploring
00:00:46
how their findings resonate with the
00:00:47
world today we'll be covering a diverse
00:00:50
range of topics bringing you the latest
00:00:52
insights and knowledge that you can
00:00:54
apply to your life into work so get
00:00:57
ready to dive into new ideas with the
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ripple effect
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start I guess just where your interests
00:01:05
around the issue of ethics and climate
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change really kind of formulated
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yeah so I wrote my dissertation
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um finished all the way back in in 2012
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uh on our obligations to the global poor
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uh that was kind of the case that kind
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of focused my my theorizing
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um and one of the issues that I
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discussed uh is kind of how demanding
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our obligations can be there's kind of a
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debate in moral philosophy about what we
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call the demandingness of morality how
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much relatively well-off people are
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obligated to sacrifice in order to make
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the world a better place relieve
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suffering help people who are unjustly
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disadvantaged and so on uh and similar
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issues arise of course uh with respect
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to climate change uh although there
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um the challenge is that
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um the main kind of moral obligation
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that it seems like we have is to protect
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environmental conditions for future
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generations for people who don't already
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exist and there are a lot of kind of
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interesting philosophical puzzles about
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how we can have obligations to future
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people who don't yet exist what the
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nature of those obligations might be
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might be how we can explain them and
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then our answers to these questions have
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implications for uh what and exactly how
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much we ought to do in the face of the
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threat of climate change so that was uh
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a set of issues that I kind of took up
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after finishing my dissertation uh when
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I was in my first uh postdoctoral
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position
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how much do you think the question of
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Ethics around climate change comes up in
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a lot of the conversation today I think
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you know you get a lot about the data
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and and where we need to go but I'm
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wondering if the ethics side of it and
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the obligation as you said the moral
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obligations of companies and people kind
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of in this process comes up enough
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so I don't think it comes up enough I
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think there's a divide I think uh there
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are kind of people
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um
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who have certain kinds of
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um
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approaches to thinking about the
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challenge of climate change
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um
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that are such that in effect they really
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are kind of generally talking about
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ethics even if they're not kind of
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talking about it the way that you know
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people like me who are trained in moral
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philosophy talk about it right but
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they're thinking about uh you know am I
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required to uh you know Drive less and
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live in a smaller home and fly less and
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uh eat a vegan diet and you know do all
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of the kinds of things that
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um we as individuals can do to reduce
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our contributions to climate change
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they're also thinking about things like
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what sort of public policies we ought to
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have what sort of you know regulations
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we ought to have and thinking about it
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in the way that's characteristic of
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um ethical reasoning right they're
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thinking about you know what does
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Justice require that we do for future
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generations and so on
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um in other circles discussions of
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ethics
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seemed to me to happen much less right
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the goal uh that others have in kind of
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thinking about how we ought to approach
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climate change seems to be like trying
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to figure out kind of Technical
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Solutions
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um
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or uh you know kind of win-win Solutions
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ways that you know we might be able to
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kind of make progress on dealing with
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climate change without any of the
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relevant uh actors having to really
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sacrifice anything right uh and
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to the extent that it's possible to deal
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with climate change in this kind of way
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um you know we should kind of take
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advantage of of those opportunities but
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the worry that I have about this is that
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um it may not be possible to do that and
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you know we're kind of uh now especially
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short on time right we haven't done
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nearly enough or uh you know 30 plus
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years and so limiting our discussions to
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you know something like the question of
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uh is there a way that we can you know
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reduce our emissions enough to keep
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warming under two degrees or under 1.5
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degrees without you know having to
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sacrifice anything in the way of our
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current Lifestyles or corporate profits
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or other kinds of things that might in
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fact actually need to be kind of traded
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off uh against the aim of
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addressing climate change in a serious
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way
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um is I think it's kind of dangerous to
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kind of approach the issue only in that
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way so then potentially are we kind of
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in a pivot moment do you think at this
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time in terms of what's occurred in the
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past where we are at the moment and
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obviously as you said where we need to
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go in a relatively short time that that
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this is the time where action uh is is
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very important to move forward
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I mean action is certainly important at
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this point uh we we've done far too
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little for a very long time since we've
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known about the threat
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um that climate change poses and we
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really are running out of time right uh
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the experts now seem to think that uh
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you know we basically have less than 10
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years at this point to bring about a
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pretty radical shift in emissions
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trajectories uh I mean if we're going to
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reach the goal of limiting warming to
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1.5 degrees uh the most recent estimates
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suggest that we need to get to net zero
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emissions globally by 2050. and we need
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to make significant reductions by 2030.
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um
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that requires
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a great deal of change in a very short
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amount of time and given that what we've
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seen over the past 30 plus years is
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relatively little progress
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um you know the the sort of shift that
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is required
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um is you know to some extent kind of
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hard to get our minds around right I
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mean it would it would be quite
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transformational in ways that it's not
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obvious that we're prepared for
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you've talked uh in other interviews and
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other papers I remember about a climate
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of a climate imperative for business
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take us through what that is and and how
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you think this will factor in
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yeah so um I've got a paper that my
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colleague Eric ortz and I have been
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working on
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um in which we argue that uh
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approaches to business decision making
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that have kind of have kind of become
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standard
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um you know over the last you know say
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50 years or so
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um that involve focusing at least
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primarily if not exclusively on uh
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increasing profits kind of within the
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limits of the law
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um
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has to be rejected in a pretty
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significant way uh in the face of of the
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threat of climate change uh the climate
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imperative idea
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is that
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whatever approach to business decision
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making we endorse it has to be
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consistent with a kind of serious
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commitment to do what's necessary uh and
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within business practices to
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sufficiently address the climate threat
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and so the imperative says that uh each
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business decision maker or say you know
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an executive of a corporation is
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obligated to take the threat of climate
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change into account in their decision
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making in a way that leads them to
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ensure that their firms emissions
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[Music]
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um
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are kind of no higher than is compatible
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with
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[Music]
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um
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basically doing their fair share right
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kind of on the assumption that everyone
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else is doing their fair share too
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in order to uh
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ensure that we kind of do enough to uh
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to mitigate the threat of climate change
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and for a lot of firms that would
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require pretty radically transforming
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the way that they do business and the
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way that their key decision makers go
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about reasoning about
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um
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you know how operations are going to be
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structured and what priorities are going
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to be
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um this is just necessary if we're going
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to
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um successfully deal with the threat
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so there is also the uh argument that
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climate of imperative and profit
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maximizing are compatible how do you
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look at that
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yeah so this is kind of what I was
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talking about a little bit before
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um so some people
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um suggest not always
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you know all that explicitly but you
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know they seem to kind of have in mind
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that uh
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firms don't really have to give up much
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if anything in the way of profits in
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order to kind of do their part when it
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comes to dealing with climate change you
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know people talk about you know
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opportunities to kind of shift business
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models in ways that will you know be
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even more profitable in the future uh
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but there's a degree of optimism that
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comes out of some hoarders that seems to
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me
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um at the very least exaggerated
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um you know the idea that the world is
00:11:07
just so convenient for everyone in the
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business world that you know doing
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what's kind of maximally good from the
00:11:13
perspective of profit making will just
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always be consistent with kind of doing
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their part from a moral perspective uh
00:11:21
to kind of address the threat of climate
00:11:22
change this seems so improbable that
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um there's just no good reason to
00:11:29
believe it right I mean there's no
00:11:30
evidence that tends to be kind of
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presented for this it's generally kind
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of Highly speculative and you know
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um of course there's something appealing
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about this kind of optimism it would be
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great if the world were like this and
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you know sometimes there are these sort
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of fortunate uh situations where there
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aren't kind of serious trade-offs that
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have to be made between competing and
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priorities but you know the world isn't
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always like that
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um you know one of the obvious examples
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to point to of course is
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um
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oil companies uh you know companies that
00:12:04
are in the fossil fuel extraction
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business if you kind of look at
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um
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their plans right there were some
00:12:11
articles uh
00:12:14
that got some attention back in I think
00:12:16
2019 2020 that
00:12:18
um highlighted that uh a number of the
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major Global fossil fuel firms uh are
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planning increased extraction uh up
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through about 2030 or the early 2030s uh
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that's their current business plan and
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so uh those who think that there's no
00:12:38
conflict between profit maximizing and
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the climate imperative have to either
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think that uh you know the decision
00:12:45
makers that these firms are just really
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bad business people they're really bad
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at you know pursuing profits in the best
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possible way they're just making a kind
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of deep mistake about what's going to be
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you know best in terms of profits for
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their firms because that's you know
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surely that's kind of what's driving
00:13:01
these these decisions but in fact you
00:13:04
know if the optimists are right these
00:13:07
firms would do better by you know
00:13:09
planning to reduce extraction and move
00:13:11
in different directions but you know
00:13:13
that just seems like like um
00:13:17
it's unlikely to be true right uh the
00:13:20
people who are making these decisions
00:13:22
are well informed they kind of know what
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they're doing they're competent business
00:13:25
people
00:13:27
um from my perspective they're just
00:13:28
making decisions that are ethically
00:13:30
problematic yeah uh they're not kind of
00:13:33
taking the the moral importance of
00:13:35
dealing with the climate threat
00:13:36
sufficiently seriously but they probably
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are doing what's best in terms of
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profits for uh for their firms
00:13:44
right and that hence brings us to the
00:13:46
topic of green watching uh which is a a
00:13:49
term that you know comes up quite often
00:13:52
these days and you know basically the
00:13:55
philosophy of a company saying one thing
00:13:57
and doing another
00:13:58
basically looking out for the profits
00:14:00
and maybe not necessarily looking out
00:14:02
for what they said that they were going
00:14:04
to do and I guess the question is how
00:14:06
prevalent do you think that is these
00:14:08
days and how much impact is it having on
00:14:11
the overall discussion around climate
00:14:13
right now to begin with
00:14:14
yeah I mean unfortunately uh you know I
00:14:17
think it's fairly common
00:14:19
um there is I think increasing pressure
00:14:22
on firms to
00:14:25
say the right things about you know
00:14:28
their commitments on climate and kind of
00:14:30
environmental issues more broadly
00:14:33
um unfortunately for kind of reasons
00:14:36
having to do with uh
00:14:40
information that uh you know ordinary
00:14:44
individuals can kind of uh realistically
00:14:47
kind of uh process and so on
00:14:51
um there's less pressure on firms to
00:14:53
actually do all of the good things that
00:14:56
they might be claiming to do
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um
00:14:59
uh you know it's often possible for
00:15:02
firms to kind of engage in
00:15:04
um you know rhetoric that makes it kind
00:15:06
of sound like they have all these really
00:15:08
good commitments without
00:15:10
um you know doing nearly as much as the
00:15:13
rhetoric suggests they're doing and
00:15:16
given that
00:15:18
um you know there's still
00:15:20
um a kind of dominant practice in
00:15:24
business decision making of aiming again
00:15:27
primarily if not exclusively at
00:15:29
maximizing profits within constraints
00:15:32
like the law
00:15:33
um
00:15:34
it's not surprising that uh it's fairly
00:15:38
common for firms to kind of exaggerate
00:15:41
how much good they're doing for you know
00:15:44
climate or or kind of other uh you know
00:15:46
other important purposes
00:15:49
um you know in large part as a kind of
00:15:52
marketing tool right uh given that a lot
00:15:54
of people
00:15:55
um do care about these issues
00:15:58
so then what do you think needs to
00:16:00
change at this point
00:16:02
playing off of the mindset that as you
00:16:04
alluded to before that you know change
00:16:07
needs to occur and it needs to occur in
00:16:09
a fairly quick fashion in order to be
00:16:11
able to meet some of the targets that uh
00:16:15
that experts have talked about what
00:16:18
needs to change either from a corporate
00:16:20
or a public perspective
00:16:23
uh angle in order to make the change and
00:16:27
get to the right uh to the right level
00:16:29
uh of dealing with this issue yeah I
00:16:33
mean quite a few things need to change I
00:16:35
mean we're in a situation where we need
00:16:36
to accomplish a great deal uh in a short
00:16:39
period of time and make pretty
00:16:41
significant changes to
00:16:43
you know the way that businesses do
00:16:45
things the way that kind of we as
00:16:46
individuals do things in our in our
00:16:48
personal lives and and so on um so uh I
00:16:53
mean there are kind of multiple
00:16:54
Dimensions to uh kind of what needs to
00:16:57
to happen so you know as uh Eric Gordon
00:17:01
and I have argued uh one of the things
00:17:02
that needs to happen is that uh the
00:17:05
norms for business decision making uh
00:17:08
need to change in some pretty
00:17:10
significant ways
00:17:12
um you know corporate Executives and
00:17:14
kind of others who have have impacts on
00:17:16
on the way that businesses operate need
00:17:19
to be taking the threat of climate
00:17:21
change much more directly into account
00:17:23
than they have been for for a long time
00:17:26
uh in deciding
00:17:28
um
00:17:29
you know what their what the policies of
00:17:32
of their organizations are going to look
00:17:34
like what practices they're going to
00:17:35
adopt and things like this
00:17:38
um and sometimes they're going to have
00:17:39
to
00:17:40
make choices that involve sacrificing at
00:17:43
least some degree of profitability for
00:17:45
the sake of making a greater
00:17:47
contribution to dealing with the threat
00:17:50
of climate change uh the other side of
00:17:52
that is we all as consumers need to
00:17:55
change the way that we think about kind
00:17:57
of how we interact with with firms what
00:18:00
kinds of purchasing decisions we make
00:18:02
um you know ultimately dealing with the
00:18:05
threat of climate change is going to
00:18:06
require
00:18:07
[Music]
00:18:08
um
00:18:09
I think some fairly significant cultural
00:18:12
changes right people need to be willing
00:18:14
to make some choices about how they kind
00:18:18
of live their own lives that are
00:18:20
different from the ones
00:18:21
that we're used to making so we need to
00:18:24
um
00:18:26
buy less stuff that's climate that's uh
00:18:29
yeah emissions intensive to produce uh
00:18:32
you know we need to be willing to you
00:18:33
know okay
00:18:34
take public transit when it's available
00:18:36
rather than driving everywhere
00:18:40
in uh you know smaller homes that uh
00:18:44
it's energy to heat and heat and cool
00:18:46
you know things like this I mentioned
00:18:49
earlier adopting a vegan or at least a
00:18:51
vegetarian diet
00:18:53
um you know is one way of uh reducing
00:18:56
one's kind of personal uh contributions
00:18:59
to greenhouse gas emissions
00:19:03
it's morally good for other reasons too
00:19:06
so there are all kinds of things like
00:19:09
this and of course
00:19:10
um
00:19:11
the choices at the different levels
00:19:15
impact each other right the more
00:19:17
consumer Behavior changes in the
00:19:20
directions that I'm describing the more
00:19:22
that firms will have to
00:19:24
um change their business practices to
00:19:28
kind of cater to the changing consumer
00:19:30
preferences right so right you know if a
00:19:33
lot of people start
00:19:35
um adopting a vegan diet right that's
00:19:37
going to require
00:19:39
um uh you know companies that are
00:19:41
producing
00:19:43
um you know meat and dairy to produce
00:19:46
less and maybe move into producing uh
00:19:49
different kinds of options that are less
00:19:51
carbon intensive uh you know the same
00:19:53
goes for uh you know kind of other areas
00:19:56
in which we might uh change our choices
00:19:59
as as individuals
00:20:02
so can you look out then five years ten
00:20:05
years
00:20:06
and think about where you think we need
00:20:10
to be at that point uh and I would say
00:20:13
it's not even hoping but but you know
00:20:16
wanting to see significant change and
00:20:18
and where we might be on a lot of these
00:20:21
issues in the next decade or so
00:20:23
yeah
00:20:24
um
00:20:26
you know it's hard to kind of paint a
00:20:28
detailed picture in our minds of kind of
00:20:30
what the world would have to look like
00:20:31
if we're going to actually succeed in
00:20:34
dealing with the threat
00:20:37
um
00:20:38
you know one of the
00:20:40
sources of some optimism is that uh you
00:20:45
know younger people seem to care about
00:20:46
this issue a great deal uh that's not
00:20:49
surprising uh they're going to be around
00:20:51
a lot longer than uh than people who are
00:20:53
a bit older and uh you know are going to
00:20:56
have to live through some of the you
00:20:58
know the really kind of troubling
00:20:59
effects that you know we're already
00:21:01
starting to see
00:21:03
um now
00:21:05
um
00:21:06
so certain kinds of policy changes that
00:21:10
have been resisted for a long time uh
00:21:13
might be possible
00:21:15
um as uh you know more and more younger
00:21:18
people are involved in the political
00:21:20
process and you know frankly as uh kind
00:21:24
of more members of older Generations are
00:21:26
no longer around to vote uh but you know
00:21:31
there's
00:21:33
um
00:21:35
some concern about that too because uh
00:21:39
there are kind of structural incentives
00:21:42
in the climate change case uh to always
00:21:45
kind of put off action a little bit
00:21:48
longer and a little bit longer and a
00:21:49
little bit longer right because when we
00:21:52
actually do start uh
00:21:56
doing more uh you know in a serious way
00:21:59
to kind of address the threat than at
00:22:01
least if I'm right uh you know that's
00:22:03
likely to involve some genuine
00:22:05
sacrifices for
00:22:07
um
00:22:09
you know people who are around when uh
00:22:12
when we start making those changes uh
00:22:15
and it's always kind of easy to say well
00:22:17
you know a little bit longer won't hurt
00:22:18
a little bit longer won't hurt but
00:22:20
there's some kind of interesting
00:22:22
um
00:22:23
philosophical papers that kind of
00:22:25
highlight in in detail kind of why this
00:22:28
structure
00:22:29
um makes dealing with a problem like
00:22:31
climate change so challenging it's
00:22:34
unlike most of the other uh
00:22:39
problems that we faced uh in uh in
00:22:43
society and kind of globally throughout
00:22:45
history
00:22:47
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:22:49
effect we hope you found this episode
00:22:51
informative and engaging don't forget to
00:22:53
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00:22:55
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Insight from the Wharton School
