00:00:00
you know the idea that the world is just so convenient for everyone in the business world that you know doing
00:00:07
what's kind of maximally good from the perspective of profit making will just
00:00:11
always be consistent with kind of doing their part from a moral perspective to kind of address the threat of climate
00:00:18
change this seems so improbable that there's just no good reason to believe it right I mean there's no evidence that
00:00:24
tends to be kind of presented for this it's generally kind of Highly speculative
00:00:30
welcome to the ripple effect the podcast that takes you on a journey through the
00:00:34
minds of work and faculty I'm your host Dan Loney and in each episode we'll be
00:00:39
diving deep into the inspiration behind the groundbreaking research that Wharton
00:00:43
professors have conducted and exploring how their findings resonate with the world today we'll be covering a diverse
00:00:50
range of topics bringing you the latest insights and knowledge that you can apply to your life into work so get
00:00:57
ready to dive into new ideas with the ripple effect start I guess just where your interests
00:01:05
around the issue of ethics and climate change really kind of formulated yeah so I wrote my dissertation
00:01:14
um finished all the way back in in 2012 uh on our obligations to the global poor
00:01:20
uh that was kind of the case that kind of focused my my theorizing um and one of the issues that I
00:01:30
discussed uh is kind of how demanding our obligations can be there's kind of a
00:01:34
debate in moral philosophy about what we call the demandingness of morality how much relatively well-off people are
00:01:41
obligated to sacrifice in order to make the world a better place relieve suffering help people who are unjustly
00:01:48
disadvantaged and so on uh and similar issues arise of course uh with respect to climate change uh although there
00:01:57
um the challenge is that um the main kind of moral obligation that it seems like we have is to protect
00:02:08
environmental conditions for future generations for people who don't already
00:02:12
exist and there are a lot of kind of interesting philosophical puzzles about how we can have obligations to future
00:02:19
people who don't yet exist what the nature of those obligations might be might be how we can explain them and
00:02:27
then our answers to these questions have implications for uh what and exactly how
00:02:32
much we ought to do in the face of the threat of climate change so that was uh a set of issues that I kind of took up
00:02:41
after finishing my dissertation uh when I was in my first uh postdoctoral position
00:02:47
how much do you think the question of Ethics around climate change comes up in a lot of the conversation today I think
00:02:55
you know you get a lot about the data and and where we need to go but I'm wondering if the ethics side of it and
00:03:03
the obligation as you said the moral obligations of companies and people kind of in this process comes up enough
00:03:10
so I don't think it comes up enough I think there's a divide I think uh there
00:03:14
are kind of people um who have certain kinds of um approaches to thinking about the
00:03:23
challenge of climate change um that are such that in effect they really are kind of generally talking about
00:03:30
ethics even if they're not kind of talking about it the way that you know people like me who are trained in moral
00:03:35
philosophy talk about it right but they're thinking about uh you know am I required to uh you know Drive less and
00:03:43
live in a smaller home and fly less and uh eat a vegan diet and you know do all of the kinds of things that
00:03:52
um we as individuals can do to reduce our contributions to climate change they're also thinking about things like
00:03:59
what sort of public policies we ought to have what sort of you know regulations we ought to have and thinking about it
00:04:05
in the way that's characteristic of um ethical reasoning right they're thinking about you know what does
00:04:12
Justice require that we do for future generations and so on um in other circles discussions of
00:04:21
ethics seemed to me to happen much less right the goal uh that others have in kind of
00:04:29
thinking about how we ought to approach climate change seems to be like trying to figure out kind of Technical
00:04:35
Solutions um or uh you know kind of win-win Solutions ways that you know we might be able to
00:04:44
kind of make progress on dealing with climate change without any of the relevant uh actors having to really
00:04:50
sacrifice anything right uh and to the extent that it's possible to deal with climate change in this kind of way
00:05:02
um you know we should kind of take advantage of of those opportunities but the worry that I have about this is that
00:05:08
um it may not be possible to do that and you know we're kind of uh now especially
00:05:13
short on time right we haven't done nearly enough or uh you know 30 plus years and so limiting our discussions to
00:05:22
you know something like the question of uh is there a way that we can you know reduce our emissions enough to keep
00:05:29
warming under two degrees or under 1.5 degrees without you know having to sacrifice anything in the way of our
00:05:36
current Lifestyles or corporate profits or other kinds of things that might in fact actually need to be kind of traded
00:05:43
off uh against the aim of addressing climate change in a serious way um is I think it's kind of dangerous to
00:05:53
kind of approach the issue only in that way so then potentially are we kind of in a pivot moment do you think at this
00:06:00
time in terms of what's occurred in the past where we are at the moment and obviously as you said where we need to
00:06:08
go in a relatively short time that that this is the time where action uh is is very important to move forward
00:06:16
I mean action is certainly important at this point uh we we've done far too little for a very long time since we've
00:06:25
known about the threat um that climate change poses and we really are running out of time right uh
00:06:32
the experts now seem to think that uh you know we basically have less than 10 years at this point to bring about a
00:06:42
pretty radical shift in emissions trajectories uh I mean if we're going to reach the goal of limiting warming to
00:06:51
1.5 degrees uh the most recent estimates suggest that we need to get to net zero
00:06:57
emissions globally by 2050. and we need to make significant reductions by 2030. um
00:07:05
that requires a great deal of change in a very short amount of time and given that what we've
00:07:14
seen over the past 30 plus years is relatively little progress um you know the the sort of shift that
00:07:22
is required um is you know to some extent kind of hard to get our minds around right I
00:07:29
mean it would it would be quite transformational in ways that it's not obvious that we're prepared for
00:07:36
you've talked uh in other interviews and other papers I remember about a climate
00:07:42
of a climate imperative for business take us through what that is and and how you think this will factor in
00:07:50
yeah so um I've got a paper that my colleague Eric ortz and I have been working on
00:07:57
um in which we argue that uh approaches to business decision making that have kind of have kind of become
00:08:08
standard um you know over the last you know say 50 years or so um that involve focusing at least
00:08:17
primarily if not exclusively on uh increasing profits kind of within the limits of the law
00:08:25
um has to be rejected in a pretty significant way uh in the face of of the threat of climate change uh the climate
00:08:35
imperative idea is that whatever approach to business decision making we endorse it has to be
00:08:46
consistent with a kind of serious commitment to do what's necessary uh and within business practices to
00:08:55
sufficiently address the climate threat and so the imperative says that uh each business decision maker or say you know
00:09:04
an executive of a corporation is obligated to take the threat of climate change into account in their decision
00:09:11
making in a way that leads them to ensure that their firms emissions [Music] um are kind of no higher than is compatible
00:09:22
with [Music] um basically doing their fair share right kind of on the assumption that everyone
00:09:29
else is doing their fair share too in order to uh ensure that we kind of do enough to uh
00:09:37
to mitigate the threat of climate change and for a lot of firms that would require pretty radically transforming
00:09:44
the way that they do business and the way that their key decision makers go about reasoning about
00:09:51
um you know how operations are going to be structured and what priorities are going
00:09:56
to be um this is just necessary if we're going to um successfully deal with the threat
00:10:04
so there is also the uh argument that climate of imperative and profit maximizing are compatible how do you
00:10:14
look at that yeah so this is kind of what I was talking about a little bit before
00:10:21
um so some people um suggest not always you know all that explicitly but you know they seem to kind of have in mind
00:10:32
that uh firms don't really have to give up much if anything in the way of profits in
00:10:40
order to kind of do their part when it comes to dealing with climate change you know people talk about you know
00:10:45
opportunities to kind of shift business models in ways that will you know be even more profitable in the future uh
00:10:53
but there's a degree of optimism that comes out of some hoarders that seems to
00:11:00
me um at the very least exaggerated um you know the idea that the world is just so convenient for everyone in the
00:11:10
business world that you know doing what's kind of maximally good from the perspective of profit making will just
00:11:15
always be consistent with kind of doing their part from a moral perspective uh to kind of address the threat of climate
00:11:22
change this seems so improbable that um there's just no good reason to believe it right I mean there's no
00:11:30
evidence that tends to be kind of presented for this it's generally kind of Highly speculative and you know
00:11:37
um of course there's something appealing about this kind of optimism it would be
00:11:40
great if the world were like this and you know sometimes there are these sort of fortunate uh situations where there
00:11:48
aren't kind of serious trade-offs that have to be made between competing and
00:11:53
priorities but you know the world isn't always like that um you know one of the obvious examples
00:11:58
to point to of course is um oil companies uh you know companies that are in the fossil fuel extraction
00:12:05
business if you kind of look at um their plans right there were some articles uh
00:12:14
that got some attention back in I think 2019 2020 that um highlighted that uh a number of the
00:12:21
major Global fossil fuel firms uh are planning increased extraction uh up through about 2030 or the early 2030s uh
00:12:33
that's their current business plan and so uh those who think that there's no
00:12:38
conflict between profit maximizing and the climate imperative have to either think that uh you know the decision
00:12:45
makers that these firms are just really bad business people they're really bad
00:12:50
at you know pursuing profits in the best possible way they're just making a kind
00:12:54
of deep mistake about what's going to be you know best in terms of profits for
00:12:58
their firms because that's you know surely that's kind of what's driving
00:13:01
these these decisions but in fact you know if the optimists are right these firms would do better by you know
00:13:09
planning to reduce extraction and move in different directions but you know that just seems like like um
00:13:17
it's unlikely to be true right uh the people who are making these decisions are well informed they kind of know what
00:13:24
they're doing they're competent business people um from my perspective they're just
00:13:28
making decisions that are ethically problematic yeah uh they're not kind of taking the the moral importance of
00:13:35
dealing with the climate threat sufficiently seriously but they probably are doing what's best in terms of
00:13:41
profits for uh for their firms right and that hence brings us to the topic of green watching uh which is a a
00:13:49
term that you know comes up quite often these days and you know basically the philosophy of a company saying one thing
00:13:57
and doing another basically looking out for the profits and maybe not necessarily looking out
00:14:02
for what they said that they were going to do and I guess the question is how prevalent do you think that is these
00:14:08
days and how much impact is it having on the overall discussion around climate right now to begin with
00:14:14
yeah I mean unfortunately uh you know I think it's fairly common um there is I think increasing pressure
00:14:22
on firms to say the right things about you know their commitments on climate and kind of
00:14:30
environmental issues more broadly um unfortunately for kind of reasons having to do with uh
00:14:40
information that uh you know ordinary individuals can kind of uh realistically kind of uh process and so on
00:14:51
um there's less pressure on firms to actually do all of the good things that
00:14:56
they might be claiming to do um uh you know it's often possible for firms to kind of engage in
00:15:04
um you know rhetoric that makes it kind of sound like they have all these really
00:15:08
good commitments without um you know doing nearly as much as the rhetoric suggests they're doing and
00:15:16
given that um you know there's still um a kind of dominant practice in business decision making of aiming again
00:15:27
primarily if not exclusively at maximizing profits within constraints like the law
00:15:33
um it's not surprising that uh it's fairly common for firms to kind of exaggerate
00:15:41
how much good they're doing for you know climate or or kind of other uh you know
00:15:46
other important purposes um you know in large part as a kind of marketing tool right uh given that a lot
00:15:54
of people um do care about these issues so then what do you think needs to change at this point
00:16:02
playing off of the mindset that as you alluded to before that you know change needs to occur and it needs to occur in
00:16:09
a fairly quick fashion in order to be able to meet some of the targets that uh that experts have talked about what
00:16:18
needs to change either from a corporate or a public perspective uh angle in order to make the change and
00:16:27
get to the right uh to the right level uh of dealing with this issue yeah I mean quite a few things need to change I
00:16:35
mean we're in a situation where we need to accomplish a great deal uh in a short
00:16:39
period of time and make pretty significant changes to you know the way that businesses do
00:16:45
things the way that kind of we as individuals do things in our in our personal lives and and so on um so uh I
00:16:53
mean there are kind of multiple Dimensions to uh kind of what needs to to happen so you know as uh Eric Gordon
00:17:01
and I have argued uh one of the things that needs to happen is that uh the norms for business decision making uh
00:17:08
need to change in some pretty significant ways um you know corporate Executives and
00:17:14
kind of others who have have impacts on on the way that businesses operate need to be taking the threat of climate
00:17:21
change much more directly into account than they have been for for a long time uh in deciding
00:17:28
um you know what their what the policies of of their organizations are going to look
00:17:34
like what practices they're going to adopt and things like this um and sometimes they're going to have
00:17:39
to make choices that involve sacrificing at least some degree of profitability for
00:17:45
the sake of making a greater contribution to dealing with the threat of climate change uh the other side of
00:17:52
that is we all as consumers need to change the way that we think about kind of how we interact with with firms what
00:18:00
kinds of purchasing decisions we make um you know ultimately dealing with the threat of climate change is going to
00:18:06
require [Music] um I think some fairly significant cultural changes right people need to be willing
00:18:14
to make some choices about how they kind of live their own lives that are different from the ones
00:18:21
that we're used to making so we need to um buy less stuff that's climate that's uh
00:18:29
yeah emissions intensive to produce uh you know we need to be willing to you know okay
00:18:34
take public transit when it's available rather than driving everywhere in uh you know smaller homes that uh
00:18:44
it's energy to heat and heat and cool you know things like this I mentioned earlier adopting a vegan or at least a
00:18:51
vegetarian diet um you know is one way of uh reducing one's kind of personal uh contributions
00:18:59
to greenhouse gas emissions it's morally good for other reasons too so there are all kinds of things like
00:19:09
this and of course um the choices at the different levels impact each other right the more
00:19:17
consumer Behavior changes in the directions that I'm describing the more that firms will have to
00:19:24
um change their business practices to kind of cater to the changing consumer preferences right so right you know if a
00:19:33
lot of people start um adopting a vegan diet right that's going to require um uh you know companies that are
00:19:41
producing um you know meat and dairy to produce less and maybe move into producing uh
00:19:49
different kinds of options that are less carbon intensive uh you know the same goes for uh you know kind of other areas
00:19:56
in which we might uh change our choices as as individuals so can you look out then five years ten
00:20:05
years and think about where you think we need to be at that point uh and I would say
00:20:13
it's not even hoping but but you know wanting to see significant change and and where we might be on a lot of these
00:20:21
issues in the next decade or so yeah um you know it's hard to kind of paint a
00:20:28
detailed picture in our minds of kind of what the world would have to look like if we're going to actually succeed in
00:20:34
dealing with the threat um you know one of the sources of some optimism is that uh you
00:20:45
know younger people seem to care about this issue a great deal uh that's not
00:20:49
surprising uh they're going to be around a lot longer than uh than people who are
00:20:53
a bit older and uh you know are going to have to live through some of the you know the really kind of troubling
00:20:59
effects that you know we're already starting to see um now um so certain kinds of policy changes that
00:21:10
have been resisted for a long time uh might be possible um as uh you know more and more younger
00:21:18
people are involved in the political process and you know frankly as uh kind of more members of older Generations are
00:21:26
no longer around to vote uh but you know there's um some concern about that too because uh
00:21:39
there are kind of structural incentives in the climate change case uh to always kind of put off action a little bit
00:21:48
longer and a little bit longer and a little bit longer right because when we actually do start uh
00:21:56
doing more uh you know in a serious way to kind of address the threat than at least if I'm right uh you know that's
00:22:03
likely to involve some genuine sacrifices for um you know people who are around when uh
00:22:12
when we start making those changes uh and it's always kind of easy to say well
00:22:17
you know a little bit longer won't hurt a little bit longer won't hurt but
00:22:20
there's some kind of interesting um philosophical papers that kind of highlight in in detail kind of why this
00:22:28
structure um makes dealing with a problem like climate change so challenging it's
00:22:34
unlike most of the other uh problems that we faced uh in uh in society and kind of globally throughout
00:22:45
history thank you for listening to the ripple effect we hope you found this episode
00:22:51
informative and engaging don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review so that
00:22:55
we can continue to bring you the best Insight from the Wharton School