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Adam thanks so much for joining us today
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thank you for having me great well uh so
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we're talking about your book and uh I I
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read in in what you said that Apple
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didn't make available Steve Jobs Tim
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Cook or any Apple executive or employees
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for interviews in your book uh so you've
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written inside apple as it were from
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outside Apple yes how did you manage to
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do that well I um I interviewed many
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many many people who worked at Apple at
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some point and also their partners and
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suppliers and other people who've dealt
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with them in one way or another my bias
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for the research on the book was over
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the last 15 years I I wanted since I was
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since I wrote a book about how Apple
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operates I wanted to talk to people who
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uh who were there while they were in
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their their radical wonderful
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transformation since 1997 so I spoke
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with very senior people and very Junior
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people and everybody in between and my
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perspective on that is that their
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perspectives were as valuable to my task
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as what I would have gotten had I had
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senior level interviews with apple
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Executives so uh of course apple is so
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close closely ident identified with
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Steve Jobs he was such a larger than
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life person and so closely identified
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with the company's identity uh how has
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Apple changed and not changed after he
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passed away last year so far Apple has
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not changed much at all so because
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there's such intense interest in the
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company I I feel like the people who
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watch Apple are grasping at straws to
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try to discern a change so there have
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been Little Things Tim Cook the new CEO
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instituted uh us philanthropic uh
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matching Grant shortly after he became
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CEO and before before Steve Jobs died uh
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more recently Apple has begun has
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announced that it is going to begin
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paying a dividend for the first time in
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many years and people want to latch on
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to these things and say ah this is the
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new Apple and I don't believe it for a
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second these are changes sure but Apple
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was changing all the time I think the
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culture their ways of doing business
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their tone their behavior uh everything
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is exactly in place for the time being
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from the way it was when Steve Jobs died
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do you think it should change I I think
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Apple will change it will have to change
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if for no other reason because it's so
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much bigger and so much more complex
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than it than it was 15 years ago when
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Steve Jobs came back to the company that
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he had co-founded so um should it change
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sure they will have to adapt to a new
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reality of being big of having more
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scrutiny for example their secrecy will
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become more more difficult over time and
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I suspect they will try an intelligent
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approach to adapting to that difficulty
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rather than just trying to hold things
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off as long as possible we'll come back
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in a bit to the question on secrecy
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about which I have a few questions but
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for now why don't we talk about Tim Cook
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and his leadership style u do you have a
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sense of how is uh how cook is putting
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his stamp on Apple and how he should in
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some ways think different by not
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emulating jobs and everything he does
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one thing that cook has going for him is
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that he is not Steve Jobs and my
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impression of the man is that he's not
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confused at all about this he is
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extremely different from jobs in almost
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every way he's not an emotional person
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he doesn't have a creative or artistic
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background the the way jobs did he's
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passionate about Apple he's passionate
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about business he's passionate about
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operational excellence some of the
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things that that have made Apple great
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so um I I think eventually he will put
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his stamp on Apple in that it will
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um it will it will be more professional
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and that it will do more things and it
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may be more evenhanded and less quirky
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but I think he'll do these things over
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time and how and what ways is he
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different than jobs cook is different
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from jobs in in almost every way so uh
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educational background
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demeanor um the things that they're
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personally interested in so cook has
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cook is a is a workaholic as was jobs
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but he's somebody who doesn't have a lot
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of outside interests he's interested in
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uh Fitness and and in sports and then
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not much else he doesn't seem to be
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interested in the Finer Things in life
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jobs let a relatively simple life for a
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multi-billionaire but did have some some
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expensive habits and tastes jobs was a
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product person and there's no indication
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that cook is uh now let's come back to
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the question of uh secrecy uh as as we
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all know Apple's corporate culture is
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notoriously and even obsessively
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secretive uh what do you think are the
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pros and cons uh for Apple well let's
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start with the pros of of secrecy um
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secrecy taken to its EXT dream as Apple
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does makes Apple an incredibly focused
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and disciplined company it's people do
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not typically multitask they focus on
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one thing they don't get
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distracted because they're trying to pay
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attention to somebody else's business
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they pay attention to their business and
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and only that Apple does a very good job
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of not letting its competitors know what
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it's working on and apple does a very
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good job of not confusing customers by
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causing them to anticipate what the next
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new thing is going to be and then
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causing those customers not to buy the
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products that are on the shelves now um
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there's obviously a negative of this
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secrecy apple is so secretive internally
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they keep secrets from each other at
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some point you would assume that that
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would hurt morale that that would make
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people not feel good about working at a
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place where they're where they're
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treated like uh horses fitted with
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blinders on they're not supposed to look
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right or left they supposed to just
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charge forward uh playing for a winning
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team or or having a winning team has
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covered up what we might otherwise
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expect to Bubble Up in terms of poor
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morale up until now i' heard from some
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people that Apple has been known to hire
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people into fake jobs did you to find
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out any of that in your reporting yes I
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I refer to these as dummy positions in
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other words you're told that you're
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coming to work at Apple you may even be
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told broadly what kind of project you
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might be working on but you're not told
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specifically what you're being hired for
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the fact that you've been vetted and
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that you've been hired to work at Apple
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should be good enough for you for the
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time being and furthermore even though
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we've hired you frankly we haven't
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decided if we can trust you yet and once
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you're learned once we figured out that
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you can be trusted then you'll get the
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uh you you'll find out the specifics of
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your position is cook as obsessive about
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secrecy as Jobs used to be uh there may
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be reason to believe that cook is more
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obsessed with secrecy we'll find out but
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as secretive as Jobs was he would go
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ahead and Spill the Beans when he felt
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like it so he would give press
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interviews and he would explain what was
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going on at Apple and he did this in an
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orchestrated calculated way and with
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great great effect in terms of publicity
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and promotion so far there's there's
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less evidence of cook behaving that way
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but we don't have as much a time to look
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at and by the way it's been an
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extraordinarily difficult time because
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this his short tenure as CEO he's had to
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deal with first the resignation of of a
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founding genius his boss and then that
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person's death now continuing along the
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same uh secrecy uh uh theme the details
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of the iPad three sort of were known
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before the launch do you think this was
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an intentional change in strategy well
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it's interesting you refer to it as the
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iPad 3 because that was one of the
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rumors is that that was what that was
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what was known before the launch and of
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course Apple chose not to call it the
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iPad 3 they chose to call it the new
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iPad
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uh It's Not Unusual in past years for
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aspects of the of new products to leak
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out ahead of time I I think this is the
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dribble has become a little bit more of
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a flow so no it it it wasn't a huge
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shocker there were still Surprises with
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this announcement if we looked at the
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transition from from iPad 1 to iPad 2 we
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might have assumed that the iPad 2 would
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be phased out it's not going to be
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phased out of course the name the name
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also was a surprise but no I don't think
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it's terribly shocking that that we knew
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that they were going to go to better
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screen resolution these things will come
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out because suppliers can't be can't be
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kept completely quiet now your book has
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an unconventional organization chart
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right in the beginning called Apple
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score uh help us understand how do you
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think Apple's hierarchy Works do the
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people operate in work ways that are
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independent of the OG chart and if so
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how apple is a military like command and
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control uh organization where people
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lower down in the organization manage up
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they are constantly preparing their boss
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who may be preparing their boss and
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their boss for a presentation to the CEO
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or to the executive team so people below
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manage up and people at the top manage
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down where information is held very
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tightly at the top and only the only
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information that seeps down is the
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information that Senior Management wants
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to seep down which includes by the way
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rapid and thorough feedback on product
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development that is that is underway um
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so the the org chart is such that the
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CEO can reach does not have to reach far
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down into the organization to get very
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good information and I presented the or
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chart of my own design of our design
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actually at Fortune Magazine as a circle
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this isn't necessarily this this this
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does not mean that this is how Apple
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draws the or chart they don't draw an
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org chart by the way because they don't
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like org charts they don't want to
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disclose what it looks like but the
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circle enables me to show how close the
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CEO is to everybody who's doing the work
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in the
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organization uh you ask do people
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operate independently of the orc chart
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there is an individual contributor
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culture in apple and there is a history
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of people being pulled off of one group
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and moving on moving to another group
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this would not necessarily be the vice
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presidents in the in the inner or outer
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ring of Senior Management this would
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rather be typically talented uh
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Engineers whose skills would be required
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elsewhere now despite having almost
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hundred billion dollars in cash U Apple
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doesn't have a history of acquiring
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other technology firms unlike say
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companies like Cisco or Oracle is this a
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prudent strategy in the IT
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world Apple's uh lack of of major
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Acquisitions to date is beyond prudent I
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I think it's almost a a a
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truism uh that if this is the way the
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world's most valuable company does it
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then it must be it must have been
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prudent for them and what about the
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future but well let's let's let's dive
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into the past for a moment then we then
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we can look at the future so you're
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right Apple has done relatively few
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Acquisitions they have never been the
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kind of Blockbuster multi-billion dollar
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Mega Acquisitions that Google and Cisco
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and HP and Oracle and Microsoft and
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others have have all done they typically
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acquire small companies for the people
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or for the intellectual property not for
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the revenues and uh I I think the
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academic research would would bear out
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that most of these Mega Acquisitions are
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disas
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most of them hurt the culture of the
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company few of them create the vaunted
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synergies that they're supposed to
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create and so yes I I will go so far as
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to say that I do not see apple doing uh
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a mega acquisition for the foreseeable
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future and if they do it will be a sure
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sign that their culture has changed
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radically will Apple find it easier or
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harder to hire disciples without the
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lure of jobs
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uh Apple will find anything that
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requires a uh a personal touch to be
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harder without Steve Jobs Steve Jobs for
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all of his many qualities was an
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incredibly charming and charismatic
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Suitor he could woo Talent like nobody
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else and he would paint a very
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compelling Vision about why you want to
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come at work come to work at Apple now
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part of the script will remain and it
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will be accurate and it won't
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necessarily require Steve Jobs's reality
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Distortion field Tim Cook and others
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will still be able to look a recruit in
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the eye and say if you want to come do
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the best work of your career if you want
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to come to the only company that created
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the iPad the iPhone and the iPod and so
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on then come to Apple but I would if if
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by the by I think I infer from your
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question that it won't be the same if
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the message is not delivered by the
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master I would agree what do you think
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is the biggest threat facing Apple
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today
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um I think Apple's biggest threat today
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is its size and complexity this company
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has thrived on Simplicity it has
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mastered the art of Simplicity for such
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a big company
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but that will not be an easy trick to
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maintain so there are other risks they
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have good competitors who are watching
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them carefully competitors like Google
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and Samsung to name two they have to get
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the next major shift in the industry
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correct as they've done the last few
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shifts and I'm not smart enough to know
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what that what that shift is but they
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will need to but they also just have
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more balls in the air than they've had
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at any point in the last 15 years and
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they're either going to have to figure
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out how to continue to keep those balls
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in the air or they're going to need some
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radical new thinking about how to comp
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how to compartmentalize the things that
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they do you know every tech company
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today wants to be be like
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apple uh is Apple so much of an outlier
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that it's almost dangerous for them to
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try to emulate it and should they even
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try I think if companies want to emulate
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Apple they they need to take it as they
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they need to take a peac meal approach
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to it they need to write down what they
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perceive to be Apple's attributes as I
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write them down in the book and then and
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then ask themselves can we do this or
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can't we do do this um not every company
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is going to have the courage to bet the
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company every 3 or four years on one
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major product uh as Apple has done
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successfully I think every company can
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say to itself are we doing a good enough
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job of saying no when we evaluate a new
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project or have we said yes too easily
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because that's a Hallmark of Apple I
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think every company can say are we being
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clear enough in our message and are we
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being tight enough about uh about how we
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deliver it I think every company can say
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have we adequately or sufficiently
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focused our people on their task do we
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care that our people are off doing this
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and off doing that maybe that's a part
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of our company's culture we're and we're
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going to continue but maybe that is
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something where we want to be more like
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apple and the list goes on like that one
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last question uh what was your biggest
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surprise in writing this book my biggest
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surp surprise was my realization about
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Apple's internal secrecy I understood
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external secrecy I understood already
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that they want to keep secrets from
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people like me what I didn't understand
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until I researched it was how much they
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try to keep secrets from each other it's
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astounding how little information an
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Apple employee has that's why by the way
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Apple employees go to a a c company
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cafeteria to watch Major product
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Launches on closed circuit television
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because they don't know
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what the what's being announced in
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public that day even if they worked on
00:17:03
the product they typically only will be
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familiar with some feature or subfeature
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on the product I think um there's an you
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know people people thinking about this
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will see an obvious downside that can't
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be good for someone's esteem to be so in
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the dark all the time on the other hand
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um I I came to have an understanding of
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how focused Apple employees are because
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of this internal secrecy because because
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of this lack of information I'm not sure
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that it's a model for other companies to
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follow but I think it ill illustrates
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Apple's Excellence really well Adam
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thanks so much for speaking with us
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today it's been my pleasure thank you
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