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Dan Loney: Have you ever seen a
situation where, in the office,
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there's a superstar employee,
but maybe he just doesn't fit
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into the mindset of the office?
If you're a manager in such a
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situation, how do you handle
that? Well, recently, the Boston
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Red Sox traded their best player
and highest paid player after
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there were disagreements with
leadership. And while this was
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occurring in baseball, there are
potentially some correlations to
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what we see play out in the
business world. Pleasure to be
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joined by Maurice Schweitzer,
who's a Professor of Operations,
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Information and Decisions here
at the Wharton School. Hi,
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Maurice, how are you, sir?
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Oh, great to be back with you.
Thank you.
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You know, in many cases, the
world of sports may not be
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applicable to the business
world, but it seems like in this
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case, it very well could be. And
I'm guessing there probably
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have been instances where a
superstar employee may be great
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for business, but maybe not great
for the overall setting of the office.
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I think that's exactly right.
And I think— I mean, I think of
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sports, the world of sports, as a
place where it's— those are
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important organizations. And
they're— those are real
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businesses. I mean, the people
running them, the people
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supporting them, they're— that's a
business. I think we can learn
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a lot from sports, but there are
many business cases where there
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are star employees that have
clashed with senior leadership.
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In many cases, these stars end
up either coming back to the
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organization or becoming stars
in other organizations. I mean,
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one of the most famous is Lee
Iacocca, who was at Ford, and—
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this is back in the '70s. And Lee
Iacocca was really a great
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rising star. He was in charge of
the Mustang. But Henry Ford the
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Second, related to the founder of
Ford, really clashed with him,
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and Lee Iacocca was fired in
1978. And Iacocca went on to
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become the CEO of Chrysler, and
revived Chrysler and really
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became this icon of a leader.
But he did not get along
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with Henry Ford, the Second.
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So when you have a situation
like this, I guess, let me ask
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you how you look at it from two
perspectives— one being maybe
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the manager who's overseeing
that employee, but also, number
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two, the other employees in the
office who are obviously dealing
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with this as well.
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Yeah. I mean, let me share another
example. So, I mean, we all know
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Jamie Dimon as the CEO of JP
Morgan Chase, and he's one of
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the leading financial experts of
our time. But he struggled with
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Sandy Weill when he was at
Citigroup. He was the COO there.
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There was a succession, so there
were other people in the mix.
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And at Citigroup, he got pushed
out in 1998. And what's, I
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think, so interesting is, you
know, he really was this protege
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of Sandy Weill, but they
didn't get along. There were
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other people involved. And the
dynamics there, you know, pushed
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Jamie Dimon out. But he was a
star. And he ended up becoming
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this superstar at a different
bank.
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Does the position of where that
employee is within the company
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hierarchy make a difference as
to how you deal with the issues
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that are at hand?
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Yeah, I think
that's absolutely right.
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I mean, another example— like
Sheryl Sandberg at Facebook had
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difference of opinions with Mark
Zuckerberg, particularly around
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the regulation and
responsibility sort of
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initiatives. And she was the CEO
there, COO, and she ended up
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leaving in 2022, where she felt
like her vision for the company
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just wasn't the same as Mark
Zuckerberg's. And Mark Zuckerberg
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took a big bet on virtual
reality, and now he's taking a
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big bet on AI. He's been leading
Facebook. And, you know, Sheryl
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Sandberg ended up going in a
very different direction, sort
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of doing more, you know, writing
and other philanthropy work.
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How does a situation like
this, then, potentially impact
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the company moving forward? And
do they have to kind of look at
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their structure and look at
their rules and regulations in
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place, and whether or not there
need to be tweaks made to some
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of those along the way?
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Yeah, I like that idea about
thinking about the sort of
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process and regulation. So often
it comes down to personality
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clashes. Like Elon Musk and
Tesla had these personality
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clashes. And actually, Musk was
forced to step down as chairman
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of the board in 2018 but then
clearly Musk took over later.
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I was thinking, we started
off talking about sports. I
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mean, Tom Brady and Bill
Belichick had this conflict and
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clashed, and Brady ended up
leaving for Tampa Bay and then
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won a Super Bowl. I think you
want to think carefully about
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sort of process. But so many of
these iconic examples are with
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personalities at the top. And I
mean, I keep coming up with
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examples that— where the person
that was pushed out ends up
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becoming someone that was
incredibly valuable. So, like
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Steve Jobs versus John Sculley.
Back when Apple was founded,
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Steve Jobs was forced out in
1985. He didn't come back until
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1997. And when he came back in
1997, Apple was not in good
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shape. I mean, like it's— it's
hard to imagine, but John
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Sculley had a vision. It was
very different from Steve Jobs.
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Steve Jobs is famously difficult
to work with, but this brilliant
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leader who completely turned
around Apple when he came back.
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Personality versus the bottom
line is probably the ultimate
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kind of story to this. And as
you kind of alluded to, in many
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cases, it's— it's a hard
challenge for those two to meet
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when you have the personality
being so strong.
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I think that that's right.
I mean, in so many of these
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cases— so Steve Jobs, Elon Musk,
Tom Brady, Lee Iacocca, Jamie
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Dimon— like, these are strong
personalities. Brilliant minds,
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but very strong personalities.
And I think at the top there's
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this clash. I mean, who's going
to be the next leader of
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Citigroup, who's going to lead
Apple? And, you know, I mean, I
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really liked your question about
process, but I think it's
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difficult at the top when we're
thinking about this, the most
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senior leaders. I mean, even
like Bill Belichick and Tom
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Brady. Like, strong
personalities. And they're
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really at the very top of the
game.
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Maurice, great to talk with you.
Thanks very much for your time
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today. All the best.
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Thank you.
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You got it. Maurice Schweitzer,
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who is Professor of Operations,
Information and Decisions here
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at the Wharton School.
