00:00:20
[elevator bell dings]
00:00:24
- Go on through the right.
00:00:37
Here we are.
00:00:40
- If you don't mind,
I'm gonna check out
00:00:42
sort of sight lines here.
00:00:44
- Sure.
00:00:58
[instrumental music]
00:01:15
- I was 16 when my sister
Kitty was murdered
00:01:18
in New York City.
00:01:21
In an instant she was gone.
00:01:34
No one understood me
like Kitty.
00:01:42
[music continues]
00:02:03
- Two weeks ago today
00:02:05
twenty minutes after 3:00
in the morning
00:02:06
it was a dark night.
00:02:08
Kitty Genovese, 28 years old,
drove her car
00:02:11
into this parking lot
at the Kew Gardens Station
00:02:14
of the Long Island Railroad as
she had been doing for a year.
00:02:17
She stopped, saw a man
against the wall
00:02:21
she didn't quite make it
halfway down the block
00:02:23
before the killer
drove a knife into her.
00:02:26
- I heard the screaming,
and I went to, uh,
the bedroom window
00:02:29
and I saw some girl
on her knees
00:02:32
and she was screaming,
"Help, help."
00:02:34
- Just exactly what was it
you heard?
00:02:37
- "Save me, save me."
00:02:38
- Didn't this frighten you
or shock you?
00:02:40
- No.
00:02:42
- Fifteen years ago, a young
woman was stabbed to death
00:02:45
in front of a Queens,
New York apartment
00:02:46
half a block from her home.
00:02:48
- Tomorrow marks
what many people regard
00:02:50
as one of the most
shameful anniversaries
00:02:51
in New York City history.
00:02:53
- Fifty years ago, her murder
00:02:55
led to the adoption
of the 911 system.
00:02:57
- Police discovered
that more than 30 people
00:02:59
had witnessed her attack
00:03:01
and no one had picked up
00:03:02
the phone to call the police.
00:03:06
[music continues]
00:03:12
- Lights came on
in the apartment building
00:03:14
a window opened, the attacker
got nervous and left
00:03:17
but not a single person
came to the rescue
00:03:20
no one even called
the police at a time
00:03:22
when the average response time
was 2 minutes.
00:03:26
So the man came back
and stabbed her again.
00:03:33
It sent a chilling message
suggesting that we were
00:03:37
each of us,
not simply endangered..
00:03:40
...but fundamentally alone.
00:03:46
[music continues]
00:04:03
- Two weeks after
my sister Kitty's funeral
00:04:06
the "New York Times" published
a front-page story.
00:04:10
It barely mentioned
her killer.
00:04:13
Instead it focused
on Kitty's neighbors
00:04:16
and practically blamed
38 of them for her death.
00:04:23
"The Times" story
was seen as proof
00:04:25
that New York City
was uncaring
00:04:28
that America was
falling apart.
00:04:31
And my sister's been
the symbol
00:04:33
of bystander apathy
for decades.
00:04:37
The girl no one cared about.
00:04:42
But recently "The Times"
published a new article.
00:04:46
It challenged the accuracy
00:04:48
of its original report.
00:04:51
And others now claim
the story of 38 witnesses
00:04:54
is more myth than fact.
00:04:57
[instrumental music]
00:05:06
What did the witnesses
actually see or hear?
00:05:10
Were there really 38?
00:05:14
Why didn't they try
to help my sister?
00:05:19
For years, I avoided
the details of that night
00:05:22
because they were just
too painful
00:05:24
but it's worse
not knowing the truth.
00:05:38
- Mr. Skoller?
00:05:39
- Bill?
- Yeah.
00:05:41
- Hi.
- How you doing?
00:05:43
- Alright. How are you?
Charlie Skoller.
00:05:46
- Bill Genovese.
- How are you, Bill?
00:05:47
- Nice to meet you.
00:05:48
Going around here
00:05:49
is anxiety provoking.
00:05:51
- Are you sure
you wanna do this?
00:05:52
This has to be
very difficult for you.
00:05:54
- No, I absolutely
00:05:55
I absolutely wanna do it.
00:05:58
It's interesting. When you
drive back here it's --
00:06:00
You know, when you're out
on Queens Boulevard there
00:06:02
it seems so,
for me anyway, city-ish.
00:06:05
Here now you're in this really
nice neighborhood.
00:06:08
- This block is
all residential
00:06:11
one-family homes.
00:06:14
Pull into this parking lot.
00:06:17
Because that's where
your sister pulled her car
00:06:20
into this lane.
00:06:23
And this is where
00:06:25
Winston Moseley caught up to her
00:06:27
and struck the first blows
to her back.
00:06:33
Many of your sister's
neighbors
00:06:35
really heard everything
that was going on,
heard the screams
00:06:38
knew that an attack
was taking place
00:06:40
and knew
that it was a violent attack.
00:06:43
It wasn't that your sister
was just screaming and screaming
00:06:46
she was yelling, "Help, help,
I'm being stabbed."
00:06:50
That was not just screams alone.
00:06:53
And Joseph Fink was seated
in the lobby of the Mowbray.
00:06:57
He was the night
elevator operator
00:07:00
and he saw the entire
first attack take place
00:07:04
from beginning to end..
00:07:08
...and he knew exactly
what was happening.
00:07:11
And instead of doing anything,
he got on the elevator
00:07:13
went downstairs,
went to his apartment
00:07:16
and went to sleep.
00:07:20
Now, as she was being attacked
in this hallway
00:07:23
Karl Ross looked down
00:07:25
and he saw
that second attack take place.
00:07:28
And he went to the telephone
00:07:31
called his girlfriend.
00:07:33
She said, "Don't get involved."
00:07:36
- It just kills me to think
that when he first looked down
00:07:41
he could have ended it
right there by doing something.
00:07:44
He could have yelled down, "I'm
calling the police." And that --
00:07:46
- Yes. Or, "The police
are on their way."
00:07:49
- How much time do you think,
if you can remember
00:07:52
from the first attack
to when he finds her again?
00:07:55
- I would say about a half
an hour, possibly 40 minutes.
00:07:59
Long enough for somebody
to have called the police
00:08:02
and for the police
to have arrived
00:08:04
and probably to save
your sister's life.
00:08:12
[instrumental music]
00:08:47
[music continues]
00:08:51
- Turns out,
I'm not the first
00:08:53
to look for these witnesses.
00:08:57
- We traced Karl Ross
to this pet store
00:09:00
but we found that he'd sold it.
00:09:02
The new people here kindly
agreed to contact him for us
00:09:05
but Karl Ross remains silent.
00:09:09
Mr. Koshkin, I wanted
to ask you one more time
00:09:11
if you would speak to us?
00:09:13
- 20/20 had no luck
00:09:14
interviewing witnesses
in 1979.
00:09:19
If I was going
to have more success
00:09:21
Charlie Skoller suggested
00:09:22
that I start
with the trial transcript.
00:09:28
My family couldn't bear
to go to the trial in 1964
00:09:32
so I never heard the testimony
of the witnesses.
00:09:38
Only 5 of the 38 witnesses
were called to take the stand.
00:09:43
Samuel Koshkin, Robert Mozer
00:09:46
Sophie Farrar, Andree Picq
00:09:49
Irene Frost.
00:09:50
[dramatic music]
00:09:58
- I heard a shriek.
00:09:59
I got outta bed,
went to the window
00:10:01
and I saw a man and a woman
00:10:03
standing across the street
00:10:05
by the bookstore.
I looked at them for a minute.
00:10:08
Nothin' happened,
so I got back to bed.
00:10:12
The second time she screamed
"Please, help me, God.
00:10:15
Please help me.
I've been stabbed."
00:10:18
I went to the window,
and as I got there
00:10:20
she was kneeling down
on the sidewalk
00:10:22
and he was running
up the street.
00:10:27
- Did you know
Irene Frost at all?
00:10:29
She worked
for your grandfather.
00:10:31
- Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I know the name well.
00:10:33
My grandfather didn't know
much about running
the business
00:10:37
and apparently
I -- Irene stole
00:10:39
several $100,000 from him
00:10:41
so her name
doesn't sit too favorably
00:10:43
in the Hirsch family.
00:10:45
- Now, do you know
if she's alive
00:10:46
or dead at this point?
00:10:48
- Oh, she's long dead.
00:10:52
[instrumental music]
00:11:02
- I saw this girl
at the bookstore kneeling
00:11:05
and this fellow had her down
bending over her.
00:11:07
And I hollered,
"Hey, get out of there."
00:11:10
And he jumped up and ran.
00:11:13
He ran like a scared rabbit.
00:11:16
I never saw anybody
take off as quick.
00:11:24
[music continues]
00:11:38
- I heard the voice upstairs.
00:11:41
Suddenly, the neighbor's
screaming something
00:11:43
and the man ran away
very fast, near the bus stop.
00:11:47
The poor girl get up slowly..
00:11:51
...and she screamed, "Help!"
00:11:53
And walking slowly
toward the drugstore
00:11:55
and up towards
the back street.
00:11:59
I was still at the window
00:12:00
scared, kind of frozen.
00:12:05
And a few minutes
after that man came back
00:12:07
walking normally
as if nothing happened.
00:12:10
And then he went down
to the train station
00:12:13
and then he came out again
00:12:15
and left in the back
00:12:17
and I could not see anything..
00:12:19
...but I heard
the last 2 screams.
00:12:22
"Help, help."
00:12:24
[music continues]
00:12:54
[music continues]
00:12:59
- Hi, is this
the Michael Farrar
from Kew Gardens?
00:13:03
Michael, I just
recently found out
00:13:05
that your mom was with my sister
when she passed away.
00:13:09
I was wondering if she'd be
willing to talk to me?
00:13:17
- My mom, she really
liked Kitty.
00:13:20
And, you know, she can't get
around no more
00:13:22
but I spoke to her
and she told me stuff
00:13:25
that I couldn't hear when I was
younger, what happened and all.
00:13:28
We'll get into that later.
00:13:40
- This was Kitty's
apartment here.
00:13:41
- On this side?
- Right here, yes.
00:13:44
- And then yours
is straight ahead?
00:13:45
- Yes.
00:13:59
This room here,
this was my room.
00:14:01
Kitty's window is right there.
00:14:07
When I went
to school sometimes
00:14:09
if Kitty would have coffee
00:14:10
and toast with my mom.
00:14:12
Kitty confided in her a lot.
00:14:15
They were friends
and they talked
00:14:16
about whatever women
00:14:17
talked about, you know.
00:14:20
- So that night,
what happened?
00:14:22
I mean, in your house,
what happened?
00:14:24
- A -- a scream,
a loud, loud scream
00:14:27
a horrible,
blood curdling scream
00:14:31
and it woke me up.
00:14:33
- How many people
do you think heard it?
00:14:38
- Just looking at the windows,
about 40, 50
00:14:41
could be 60
because it was so loud.
00:14:44
Uh, the whole neighborhood
had to hear it.
00:14:47
And this neighborhood
back in the 60s
00:14:50
I remember
a lot of the older people
00:14:52
they had numbers on their arms
00:14:55
they were
in concentration camps.
00:14:58
That type of a person
might not wanna get involved
00:15:00
with authorities because
of what happened
with the Nazis
00:15:03
so, you know, you can't blame
people for being afraid.
00:15:07
But that night
when I walked up the hallway
00:15:11
my parents were up, out,
this window was open
00:15:15
and my father was looking out
the window.
00:15:18
Well, he didn't see anything
00:15:19
so my parents went back to bed.
00:15:22
About 20 minutes later or so
00:15:24
somebody called my mom
00:15:26
and that's when my mom
said to my father
00:15:30
"Kitty's in the hall bleeding."
00:15:34
And she just grabbed her jacket
and threw it on.
00:15:37
And she started to run
00:15:39
and my father was putting
his pants on
00:15:41
and he says,
"Wait, wait for me."
00:15:43
And she ran down.
00:15:50
- So she comes in, it's 3:30
in the morning or thereabouts
00:15:54
and it's freezing cold.
00:15:55
- It was cold March..
00:15:58
...and this is actually
the doorway.
00:16:01
When my mom tried to open
the door, it hit Kitty
00:16:06
and she was facing her head
towards the door
00:16:09
her feet towards the stairs
00:16:10
and my mother had to push
the door in to get in.
00:16:15
She held her,
and she could feel
00:16:17
the stab wounds in her back
00:16:19
and her hands kept going,
still fighting
00:16:23
and my mom
finally calmed her down
00:16:26
but she couldn't talk
and she started to gurgle.
00:16:29
That was her, she was just
passing then
00:16:32
she was dying, so --
00:16:36
Hours later I opened the door
00:16:40
and the whole bottom
of this foyer was blood.
00:16:45
[instrumental music]
00:16:49
But you could actually
smell the blood.
00:16:55
You know, it's like something
you don't forget.
00:16:57
It's like walking
in an old butcher shop
00:16:59
how you could smell that
the -- the human, the meat.
00:17:02
It -- You know, it --
00:17:07
The prints on the wall
were marked in pencil
00:17:11
1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
00:17:13
And it wasn't until
I was talking to my mother
00:17:15
and I said when I looked in,
I saw the handprint.
00:17:19
And she says, "That was
my fingerprints on the wall."
00:17:23
- Your mom?
- Yeah.
00:17:24
'Cause when she went
to get up, she was like
00:17:27
she went and she put her hands
on the wall.
00:17:31
My mom spoke to one woman
from a newspaper back then
00:17:35
and she told her what happened
and the woman says
00:17:38
you know, "Would you do that
again, if you had to?"
00:17:40
And my mother says,
"Certainly, of course."
00:17:42
When the paper come out,
it says my mom said
00:17:44
that she would never get
involved with it
00:17:46
and that's when my mother says,
"It don't pay to talk
00:17:48
because they twist
what you say."
00:17:50
And that's, she never said
anything since...you know.
00:17:54
- Do you think your mother
would talk to me?
00:17:57
- I -- I'll twist her arm
a little, you know,
but I think she would.
00:18:00
- Not, not too hard, but --
00:18:01
- I think that she would
do that.
00:18:04
- Thank you so much.
00:18:05
- I wish it could have been
00:18:06
different circumstances.
00:18:07
Alright?
- Yeah, really.
00:18:08
- You know, give the best
to your family and --
00:18:15
[music continues]
00:18:26
- Why was Sophia left out
of the original story?
00:18:34
It would have made such
a difference to my family
00:18:37
knowing that Kitty died
in the arms of a friend.
00:18:43
Truth is my family
doesn't know much
about Kitty's murder.
00:18:50
The only time we learned
any details of that night
00:18:53
was in 1995.
00:18:54
That's when the killer
appealed for a retrial.
00:19:01
It briefly brought us
face to face with the man
00:19:03
who murdered and attempted
to rape Kitty.
00:19:09
Hearing those details
for the first time
00:19:11
was unbearable for me
and my siblings.
00:19:17
- Speaking for myself..
00:19:21
[sighs]
00:19:22
...it never goes away.
00:19:28
I never forget the day
00:19:31
that the policemen
in New Canaan
00:19:33
came to our door,
knocked on it..
00:19:37
...and told us what happened.
00:19:38
- It was very early
in the morning
00:19:40
and the doorbell went off
00:19:42
and I think
I was awakened by that
00:19:43
and I heard
the -- the conversations.
00:19:46
And then, then, then
00:19:48
just ex -- extreme
00:19:51
like piercing, screaming.
00:19:54
And then freezing in my bed.
00:19:58
- My mother, my mother
was a basket case.
00:20:01
My father was also.
00:20:05
My father couldn't even
identify my, my, uh
00:20:08
sister's body in the morgue. He
had to send his brother there.
00:20:12
- And the neighbors
are all like
00:20:13
"Oh, my God,
what can we do for you?"
00:20:16
And it's like, uh --
00:20:19
"Why don't you take,
why don't you take Frank?"
00:20:22
I -- I just went off
to the McSweeny's.
00:20:25
I was with them for weeks.
00:20:29
I never even went
to my sister's funeral.
00:20:34
It was all over the news,
everywhere.
00:20:38
So, I got a lot
of my information
00:20:40
just from sneaking maybe,
and turning on a TV and --
00:20:47
- The only thing we could
think about is the tragedy.
00:20:51
We almost erased her
from our lives.
00:20:57
[instrumental music]
00:21:01
Bill, it's hard to say
how he handled it.
00:21:04
I -- I -- I really, you know,
we really never sat down
00:21:07
and talked about it.
00:21:10
She took a --
a shine to Billy.
00:21:17
She spent a lot of time
with him.
00:21:31
- Kitty and I were separated
when I was 6.
00:21:35
That year my parents decided
00:21:37
the city
was getting too dangerous
00:21:39
so we left
for New Canaan, Connecticut.
00:21:44
Kitty had already
graduated high school
00:21:46
and much to my parent's
frustration
00:21:48
she decided
to stay in the city.
00:21:52
For the next 10 years,
I only saw her on weekends
00:21:55
when she would come to visit.
00:21:59
We'd have a lot of fun driving
around in her red Fiat.
00:22:06
But the best part was talking
late into the night.
00:22:10
Kitty seemed to know
about everything.
00:22:14
And I was a curious kid
and asked a lot of questions.
00:22:19
Kitty always took the time
to answer them.
00:22:43
For decades, the identity
of the so called 38 witnesses
00:22:47
has been a mystery.
00:22:49
If I was going to track
any of them down
00:22:51
first I'd have to find out
who they were.
00:22:55
I requested
all the information
on my sister's murder
00:22:58
from the New York police
department.
00:23:02
They sent me copies
of the original detective
00:23:04
accounts of witness interviews
called DD5's.
00:23:10
- I saw her, she was wearing
a black coat and high heels
00:23:13
and the coat was held
around her body.
00:23:15
She was a, a small girl --
- Terrific scream.
00:23:18
- What I thought at first
was some cat --
00:23:21
- It sounded like a child.
00:23:24
- And I looked out to see
and I couldn't see anything.
- Otherwise I --
00:23:29
- The police want to know
your name and everything
and they get people involved.
00:23:32
These kind of people don't
want to get involved.
- Why didn't we do something?
00:23:34
- I mean, I -- I feel
a terrible guilt.
00:23:40
- Much of the reports
were illegible.
00:23:43
And almost all the names
had been redacted.
00:23:50
I was at a dead end
without the names.
00:23:54
But I thought of someone
who might be able to help.
00:23:57
- 20/20 has gone back
to reexamine
00:23:59
what has become
a classic case
00:24:00
not of crime,
but of social behavior.
00:24:03
- Hello?
- Aram?
00:24:04
- Yes.
- This is Bill Genovese.
00:24:06
My sister was Kitty Genovese.
00:24:08
- Oh, yes.
Oh, my goodness.
00:24:10
- Did you, did you have any
luck in reaching
any of the witnesses?
00:24:14
- I did try
to track them down, yes.
00:24:16
I used to have a file.
00:24:18
Uh, I have some stuff
at Columbia
00:24:21
and, uh, if it were anywhere
00:24:23
it could be there.
00:24:26
[instrumental music]
00:24:30
- The list Aram had found
00:24:31
contained summarized versions
00:24:33
of the witness accounts.
00:24:35
Most importantly,
it had the names.
00:24:39
These statements
from the neighbors
00:24:41
matched the DD5 reports.
00:24:44
So Aram's list must have come
from the police interviews.
00:24:49
When I added up the number
00:24:51
of entries, there were 38.
00:24:54
Could these be
the 38 witnesses?
00:24:58
[music continues]
00:25:08
[dogs barking]
00:25:15
Lynne, I presume.
- Yes, Bill, I presume.
00:25:18
- Yes, and you're Tod.
- This is Tod. Bill.
00:25:21
- Uh, Bill.
- How're you doing?
00:25:23
- Good.
Can I help?
00:25:25
- Nah, I'm good.
- Okay.
00:25:30
- Can't we help you?
00:25:31
- Over here, yeah.
00:25:34
So, you lived
in the Mowbray?
00:25:36
What apartment, what floor?
00:25:38
- Second floor. 214.
00:25:42
- Did you feel
like the neighborhood was safe?
00:25:44
- Yes.
00:25:45
- Cause you were 19, 20
00:25:47
around 1964.
00:25:48
Did you feel you could come
and go in the evening?
00:25:51
- Oh, yes,
but I could see people
00:25:55
and they would just pull down
the shades or --
00:25:57
There was a fear.
00:25:59
There was a fear
in that building, I think.
00:26:02
- What was your experience
that night?
00:26:04
- I heard a scream.
It woke me up.
00:26:07
I looked out the window,
I didn't see anything
00:26:09
I didn't hear any more.
00:26:11
And I said, "Oh, well."
I went back to sleep.
00:26:14
- Did it wake your parents up?
00:26:16
- No, as far as I know.
00:26:18
The next morning
the detectives were pounding
on the door
00:26:22
and I told them what I had,
you know, experienced.
00:26:24
- Yeah.
00:26:26
- Do you think you were
1 of the 38
00:26:28
that were reported
to have done nothing?
00:26:31
- I -- I supposed I could be
00:26:34
I could be counted
in with that.
00:26:35
- Hmm.
When the police --
00:26:37
- Because I woke up
00:26:38
I looked out the window...
and I went back to bed.
00:26:45
But I wasn't in that group.
- Yeah.
00:26:48
- I -- I, that was not my
behavior in that, in that.
00:26:51
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
00:26:52
- In my research, your name
and your mom's name
00:26:56
is down there as saying
00:26:58
"I heard, George, he's --"
Eh, let me get it right
00:27:02
"George, he's, he's done it
to me.
00:27:04
George, he's done it to me."
Twice.
00:27:07
And then, "Please help me."
00:27:09
So, you and your mom
00:27:12
you were probably counted
as part of the 38.
00:27:17
And, according
to your remembering
00:27:19
your mom never said anything?
00:27:22
- No, as far as I know, she
never spoke to the police
at all.
00:27:25
- Yeah.
00:27:27
- Wow, I have no idea
who George is
00:27:29
but I, I never heard
of anything like that.
00:27:33
And as far as I know
momma was asleep.
00:27:36
That is shocking.
00:27:39
Wow.
00:27:42
[instrumental music]
00:27:46
[knocks on the door]
00:27:49
- Come on in.
- Hello.
00:27:51
- How are ya?
- You're Hattie?
00:27:54
- Yes.
- Hi, Bill Genovese.
00:27:55
- Nice to meet you.
- How're you doing?
00:27:57
- Nice strong grip.
00:28:00
- Were you ever interviewed
by the police?
00:28:03
- Yes, I think I was, yeah.
00:28:05
- This is what they recorded
anyway, that you said to them.
00:28:08
"Hattie Grund, saw a woman
screaming, "Help."
00:28:12
"She was standing
in front of cleaners.
No male was present."
00:28:15
- That's true. I heard somebody
saying "Help, help.."
00:28:21
...from what I recall
and then I called the police.
00:28:24
- You called the police?
- Always.
00:28:26
And they said,
"We already got the calls."
00:28:30
- Hmm.
- I didn't even finish
my statement.
00:28:33
And they said,
"We've already gotten the call."
00:28:37
It wasn't that people
didn't call.
00:28:39
There might have been other
people that called..
00:28:42
...because once you got
the police station
00:28:45
before you could finish they
said, "We've gotten the calls."
00:28:49
- When news reporters, uh,
came to talk to you, uh
00:28:53
were they pushing the, you
know, the witness story
and asking --
00:28:57
- Oh yeah, they were persistent
in getting information,
you know.
00:29:00
And that's the thing Kew Gardens
got a little aroused
00:29:04
when they said they were,
we were apathetic.
00:29:09
We were not. There are always
a few people that call.
00:29:17
[instrumental music]
00:29:19
- After hearing
Hattie Grund claim
00:29:21
she and others
called the police.
00:29:23
I requested the police log
of phone calls
from that night.
00:29:28
The only call they list
is from Karl Ross
00:29:30
well after Moseley was gone.
00:29:34
Did the police fail
to log the calls?
00:29:37
Or did Hattie just create
a story she could live with?
00:29:43
A witness who doesn't know
she's a witness.
00:29:47
So many other missed details
of that night.
00:29:51
Like the fact that Kitty
didn't die alone.
00:29:56
How could anything be believed
about this story?
00:30:03
I never questioned it.
00:30:06
Two years after Kitty's death
00:30:08
I graduated high school.
00:30:11
The Vietnam War
was in full swing.
00:30:14
Many of my peers were looking
for ways not to serve.
00:30:18
Whether the war
was right or wrong
00:30:20
I couldn't help but see them
00:30:21
as apathetic bystanders.
00:30:24
I wasn't going to be like
the 38 witnesses
00:30:27
So I enlisted in the Marines.
00:30:31
And at 18, you're going off
to war and you're thinking
00:30:35
"I'll come home okay."
00:30:41
[music continues]
00:30:58
- I think he's looking
for the ultimate inner peace.
00:31:01
The choices that he made
in his life
00:31:03
um, were all related to the fact
00:31:06
that no one
helped his sister.
00:31:11
And if he knows the truth,
that's a peacefulness.
00:31:16
I mean, I'm hoping for Bill
that there'll be closure.
00:31:20
You know, like he didn't
lose his legs
00:31:21
in Vietnam for nothing.
00:31:29
[music continues]
00:31:41
- The version of the story
that was accepted as fact
00:31:44
for so many years was written
00:31:45
by the late reporter
Martin Gansberg.
00:31:49
His editor at "The Time"
00:31:50
was a man named Abe Rosenthal
00:31:53
who became a major figure
in journalism.
00:31:56
From what I've found,
it's Rosenthal
00:31:58
who's credited with breaking
the story.
00:32:01
And later that year
00:32:03
he wrote a book called
"38 Witnesses."
00:32:09
- This story has never died.
00:32:12
I still get mail about it,
people write theses about it.
00:32:15
There are lectures
and seminars at universities.
00:32:19
They are obsessed
by this story.
00:32:23
It's like a jewel.
00:32:24
You keep looking at it
00:32:26
and different things
occur to you.
00:32:27
It's affected my approach
to life, I think.
00:32:35
- Okay, sir.
00:32:37
- According to his book,
he first heard
my sister's name
00:32:40
when he had lunch
with the city's police chief
00:32:43
10 days after the murder.
00:32:47
- I was, uh, nauseated
at the idea
00:32:49
that people in New York City
00:32:51
in Queens, knew that a girl
was getting killed.
00:32:54
And later they dis,
it was discovered
00:32:57
that 38 people
didn't do anything.
00:33:01
It was the failure
of New York City
00:33:05
or the people
of New York City
00:33:07
to take action, stick out
a hand, do something.
00:33:11
- Right.
- Shout, "Hey, we need help."
00:33:14
And that was what grabbed
the people of the city
00:33:18
and other cities.
00:33:20
- Well, where did
the number 38 come?
00:33:22
I wonder was it synthesized
somehow to make a big impact?
- No.
00:33:26
- So that we could
get a positive.
00:33:28
I mean,
for a positive result --
00:33:29
- You asked the question
and I'm telling you.
00:33:31
I can't swear to God
00:33:34
that there were 38 people.
00:33:36
Some people say
there were more
00:33:37
some people say
there were less
00:33:39
but what was true..
00:33:41
...people all over the world
00:33:44
were affected by it.
00:33:45
Did it do anything?
00:33:47
You bet your eye
it did something.
00:33:50
And I'm glad it did.
00:33:56
[instrumental music]
00:34:00
- Forty years after
the original article appeared
00:34:03
the "New York Times"
reexamined their account.
00:34:06
They acknowledged
some of the original
article's flaws
00:34:10
and highlighted the questions
surrounding the story.
00:34:13
Most of the revisionist
information
00:34:16
came from Joe DeMay.
00:34:18
A Kew Gardens resident
and amateur historian.
00:34:21
- I sat down and I read
through the article
00:34:25
and when it was all through
I thought to myself
00:34:27
"What the heck this,
this can't make
00:34:28
this doesn't make
any sense at all."
00:34:30
If you read
through the article
00:34:32
the first paragraph
is crystal clear
00:34:34
and absolutely riveting.
00:34:36
For more than half an hour
00:34:38
38 respectable,
law-abiding citizens
00:34:40
in Queens watched
a killer stalk
and stab a woman
00:34:42
in 3 separate attacks
in Kew Gardens.
00:34:46
Well, turns out there weren't
38 eyewitnesses at all.
00:34:49
The witnesses to the case,
with one or two exceptions
00:34:52
were ear witnesses,
not eye witnesses.
00:34:55
What happened is this.
00:34:57
There was an initial attack
on Austin Street
00:35:00
that was broken off,
the killer fled.
00:35:03
Your sister then got up
and she walked around
00:35:04
to the back of the building.
00:35:06
The people in the apartment
building could not
00:35:08
have seen her for more
than a couple of minutes.
00:35:12
When they saw him come back
the few witnesses
00:35:14
that were still at their
windows, Kitty was long gone
00:35:16
as far as they knew
she was some place safe.
00:35:19
So, yeah, the story
was generally correct
00:35:22
but in a lot of the important
details it was grossly
00:35:24
exaggerated and simply
not true.
00:35:32
- When I first came upon
his website
00:35:34
my first reaction
was to sort of brush it off.
00:35:37
But then I came back
and read it very closely
00:35:39
and realized, "Wow, his argument
is incredibly compelling."
00:35:43
If the story had been reported
more accurately
00:35:46
it still would have been
a 2 or 3 day
00:35:48
maybe -- maybe even 4 day story
00:35:50
but it would not have been
a 50 year story.
00:35:53
We would not still be sitting
here talking about it today.
00:35:56
- Did anybody ever challenge
the 38 witness
00:35:59
38 eyewitness story?
00:36:01
- Yeah. Not at the time.
00:36:03
Not in 1964.
In fact to the contrary.
00:36:07
Other newspapers, other
magazines, "Li-Life Magazine"
00:36:11
ran with it and then even
exaggerated it further.
00:36:18
- This is Mike Wallace.
00:36:20
Why did 38 people fail to act?
00:36:23
The answer to that question
concerns every one of us
00:36:26
who fears perhaps that apathy
00:36:29
has become part
of our way of life.
00:36:31
- The question becomes
00:36:33
was it worth
all the attention it got
00:36:35
or was it a media creation?
00:36:39
- Oh, I think to a certain
degree it was a media creation.
00:36:44
No one investigated the 38.
00:36:47
No one followed up on it
or anything of that nature.
00:36:50
- Do you have any feel
for why that would have been
00:36:53
with this case
versus any other case?
00:36:57
- Because it was taken
seriously
00:36:59
by "The New York Times."
00:37:02
The reason I picked up on it..
00:37:04
...was because Abe Rosenthal
is a man I respect.
00:37:09
Good reporter, in a position
of authority
00:37:12
at "The New York Times."
00:37:15
I mean, "The Times" had, still
does, but back then particularly
00:37:19
had that kind of clout.
00:37:22
It's a fascinating...
troubling story.
00:37:30
And undoubtedly,
sold newspapers.
00:37:34
- Hi, is this Mr. Lelyveld?
- Yes, sir.
00:37:37
- When did you start working
at "The Times?"
00:37:40
- I became a reporter
in 1963, I guess.
00:37:43
- Do you think the original
"Times" story is accurate?
00:37:47
- I remember feeling
it was a little skimpy.
- Yeah.
00:37:50
- That it, that it reached
its judgment quickly.
00:37:53
- Have you ever heard
of a woman named Sophia Farrar?
00:37:56
- No.
00:37:57
- Sophia Farrar actually did
00:37:59
go down to be with her
00:38:00
as soon as she found out
about it.
00:38:02
- And did the police list her
00:38:04
as a witness in their reports?
00:38:05
- Yeah, she testified in court.
00:38:08
- And she's not mentioned
in "The Times" story?
00:38:10
- No.
00:38:11
- Well, that's just, uh
00:38:12
that's inexcusable then.
00:38:13
The question would be
why the competition
00:38:15
didn't look into it.
00:38:17
- Hi, Richard Wald?
- Speaking.
00:38:19
- You were the managing editor
00:38:21
at "The New York Herald
Tribune" in '64?
00:38:25
Did "The Tribune"
ever write a story
00:38:28
about how "The Times"
covered the story of 38?
00:38:31
- No, I don't remember
"The Tribune" ever doing that.
00:38:34
Let's assume you were
a reporter on the scene.
00:38:36
If you had a sense
that it didn't happen
00:38:39
that way,
I would have assigned people
to go and check.
00:38:42
- Right.
00:38:43
- But I don't know
any reporter
00:38:44
who felt that way.
00:38:49
- Mr. Pressman.
- Hi, Bill. How are you?
00:38:51
- Good. I'm good.
00:38:53
- In 1964,
I was a reporter at WNBC
00:38:58
and I had no first hand
knowledge of the story
00:39:01
but my friend Danny Meenan
covered the story.
00:39:04
At this point
he was doing radio
00:39:06
I believe for WMCA,
and, uh
00:39:10
among all the police reporters
I've known
00:39:12
and I've known many,
he was one of the best
00:39:14
if not the best.
00:39:16
He said, "The story doesn't make
any sense to me."
00:39:19
And he gave me an account of
00:39:21
uh, what he found.
00:39:25
And it says here,
"There were many witnesses.
00:39:28
"Some 30 odd in the number.
00:39:31
"One conclusion all seemed
to have, it was a drunken brawl
00:39:34
between man and wife."
00:39:36
Martin Gansberg, the author
00:39:38
of the "Page One Story"
in "The Times"
00:39:40
which caused the furor,
was challenged
00:39:43
by this irate reporter.
00:39:47
"Why didn't you include
in your story
00:39:49
"the fact that many
witnesses did not
00:39:52
believe a murder
was taking place?"
00:39:55
Gansberg replied..
00:39:57
"...It would have ruined
the story."
00:40:04
- That to me is incredible.
00:40:08
It's curious to me why,
00:40:11
and I'm not trying
to blame Danny Meenan
00:40:14
or yourself or anybody else
but why --
00:40:16
how come people didn't call
"The Times" out on that?
00:40:20
- Because it was
"The New York Times"
00:40:23
and Danny, you know,
00:40:25
he had to continue
to hold on to his job.
00:40:28
I don't think that he
probably was interested
00:40:30
in taking on Abe Rosenthal
and "The New York Times."
00:40:33
A couple of years passed,
00:40:36
I was teaching a course
00:40:38
and this seemed
to be something
00:40:39
that the class
would want to explore.
00:40:42
A couple of the people
in my class being enterprising
00:40:45
I guess you would say,
called Rosenthal.
00:40:49
And Rosenthal called me.
00:40:53
He was really angry,
he was screaming at me.
00:40:55
"Do you realize," said Rosenthal
00:40:57
"that this story has become
00:41:00
emblematic of a situation
in America?"
00:41:04
"That it's become the subject
of sociology courses
00:41:07
books and articles."
00:41:09
And I think that
that is abhorrent
00:41:12
to anyone
who is interested in truth.
00:41:18
- For me to hear that,
it's just shocking
00:41:20
because I grew up and moved
in certain directions
00:41:24
based on this story
being fact.
00:41:28
But indeed it was
not totally fact.
00:41:35
- Did they say why they just
sat there doing nothing
00:41:38
while that girl
screamed for help?
00:41:40
- They all had
the same answer.
00:41:42
They didn't wanna get involved.
00:41:44
- A young woman
stabbed 14 times
00:41:46
then raped
outside her building.
00:41:48
- While 40 of her neighbors
turned up their TVs
00:41:50
so they couldn't
hear the screams.
00:41:52
- If you're a witness
in one of these things,
you know what you gotta do?
00:41:55
Put on a shirt and tie,
you gotta go down to court --
00:41:57
- So because of a little
inconvenience
00:41:58
you don't wanna get involved?!
00:41:59
- Listen, let me explain
something to you, huh?
00:42:01
Shut up!
00:42:05
- You look at things
that happen in the world
00:42:07
and that's one of the ways
that you decide
00:42:10
what course
you're gonna take.
00:42:12
And if those things
aren't accurate
00:42:13
then you could
chart the wrong course.
00:42:17
If Kitty Genovese
00:42:20
is a name
that immediately summons
00:42:22
something to people's minds
00:42:24
then that thing that gets
summoned should be the truth.
00:42:33
[birds chirping]
00:42:35
- So, that's everyone who,
who saw --
00:42:36
- These are witnesses.
00:42:38
- Witnessed in some way,
at least heard something.
00:42:41
And A.M. Rosenthal's the guy
who wrote "38 Witnesses."
- Right.
00:42:45
- The truth of the matter is,
38 people didn't see it.
00:42:48
- Okay.
00:42:49
Dr. and Mrs. Rubenstein
heard screams, "Help, help
00:42:53
they're killing me."
00:42:54
- You know, I often wondered
00:42:56
how much detail
Billy would get into.
00:42:58
- "He heard a woman scream
at about 3 o'clock."
00:43:01
- So and so did this,
so and so opened the window,
00:43:04
so and so shouted,
so and so --
00:43:08
For what? She's dead.
00:43:11
She's murdered,
you know.
00:43:15
I don't want --
Why do I wanna hear that?
00:43:18
- "Standing over her
and repeatedly striking her.
The girl then --"
00:43:22
- I personally never heard
a story
00:43:26
from my dad's family members
about Kitty.
00:43:29
I think her death
overshadowed her life
00:43:33
for anybody involved with it.
00:43:37
- In some ways there was this
hush-hush about her life
00:43:39
because they couldn't talk
about her death.
00:43:42
It probably made it
more traumatic
00:43:44
because they weren't able
to celebrate her life.
00:43:47
They were focusing
on her death
by hiding the fact
00:43:49
that she was even alive
to begin with.
00:43:52
- I mean, to me,
she's a picture in a magazine.
00:43:55
I know her from things
I read on Wikipedia
00:44:00
or Googled or read randomly
in a book
00:44:04
when I was in high school
in English class
00:44:06
and didn't realize
it was my aunt
00:44:07
until about half-way through.
00:44:09
I know how she died.
- Yeah.
00:44:10
- That's the story
I could tell you.
00:44:19
- Inside, dad?
- Yeah.
00:44:21
[engine whirring]
00:44:37
One more.
00:44:40
As you're beating your head up
against the wall
00:44:42
and having to relive
this murder scene
00:44:45
over and over again, it's like,
you know, you stop and say
00:44:48
"Why the hell
am I doing this?
00:44:49
This is, like, nuts.
00:44:51
I don't know, I guess
the message for me
00:44:54
and why I can't stop until
I feel like it's over.
00:44:57
- Yeah, when is it over?
00:44:58
- I -- I'll know
when it's over.
00:45:02
Let me just describe something
really quickly.
00:45:04
My sister Kitty, for you,
would be
00:45:07
a combination of mom and me.
00:45:11
So imagine that.
00:45:13
Mom and I both get murdered
on the street.
00:45:21
- Well, see, I never knew
it was like that for you.
00:45:24
Like, you've never --
00:45:25
I mean, you've never expressed
it in that way.
00:45:29
- Right.
00:45:35
So the obsessive part of me
00:45:37
that's gotta get
to the end of it
00:45:39
the end isn't reached yet.
00:45:40
There's see -- there's more
bases I'd like to touch.
00:45:43
For instance, like, Kitty
was married, did you know that?
00:45:47
- No, I --
No.
00:45:54
[instrumental music]
00:46:08
- My sister was so much more
than her final 30 minutes.
00:46:13
But in our late-night talks,
00:46:15
her life in the city
barely came up.
00:46:20
All I knew was
she worked in a bar.
00:46:22
Was briefly married
to a man named Rocco.
00:46:28
In the past few years,
journalists have revealed
00:46:30
that her roommate Mary Ann
was actually her lover.
00:46:36
If I didn't know something
as important as that
00:46:38
how well did I really
know my sister?
00:46:43
Even though I haven't seen him
since I was 6
00:46:46
I decided to reach out
to Rocco.
00:46:51
"Dear Rocco, I've been working
with a filmmaker
00:46:54
for several years
on a documentary about Kitty."
00:46:58
"At this point, I have
questions about her life
00:47:00
"in New York
after high school
00:47:03
and I think you hold the key
to the answers."
00:47:08
"William, I respect
the feeling expressed
in your message
00:47:12
"and I ask you do the same
for mine
00:47:14
which are to respect
my desire for privacy."
00:47:19
"My relations with Kitty shall
remain a mystery forever."
00:47:25
[instrumental music]
00:47:29
- Hi, pops.
00:47:33
What are you doing?
00:47:35
- I'm reading through
Kitty's yearbook.
00:47:38
"May we dance forever
on each others' feet"
00:47:42
Love and Stuff, Elsa."
00:47:49
So this is where you went
to high school?
00:47:51
- This is where
we went to high school.
00:47:53
And when we played hooky,
we were in that park.
00:47:56
which we did a lot.
00:48:00
- Did Kitty have any
aspirations of going
to college?
00:48:03
- No.
00:48:04
And it's interesting
because she was smart.
00:48:07
But I don't remember her
ever striving for the "A."
00:48:11
Probably 'cause
we were all cut-ups.
00:48:14
[upbeat music]
00:48:17
Everyone loved Kitty.
00:48:20
She was funny, very witty.
00:48:24
She had an, an enormous
following.
00:48:30
[music continues]
00:48:35
She was a very good mimic
of teachers
00:48:38
particularly
our French teacher.
00:48:40
She would do
the Sid Caesar thing
00:48:41
where she made believe
she was talking French.
00:48:43
[speaking in French]
00:48:48
[music continues]
00:48:49
To be in Kitty's clique
was a big deal.
00:48:53
We played hooky.
00:48:57
We went to the beach
00:48:59
or here in the park
00:49:01
or smoking on the roof.
00:49:03
And she was the head
of the pack.
00:49:11
- So, you first heard
about Kitty's murder --
00:49:15
- I remember reading the obit.
00:49:17
It said that she was a barmaid.
- Yeah.
00:49:21
- Okay?
00:49:22
And, um, I was, I --
00:49:25
I remember thinking,
"What a pity, what a waste"
00:49:28
that she wound up a barmaid.
00:49:33
- I'm Wally Brosnan, Bill.
- Wally, Bill Genovese.
00:49:36
I was a friend
of Kitty's, too.
00:49:38
- Good. Nice to meet you.
- Hiya, Bill.
00:49:40
- Nice to meet you.
- My pleasure.
00:49:42
- Kitty started out
as a bar maid
00:49:44
but eventually she earned
a position as a bar manager.
00:49:48
Her last job was at a tavern
called "Ev's 11th Hour."
00:49:52
Somehow I didn't
imagine this.
00:49:53
The neighborhood's
changed quite a bit.
00:49:55
- Neither did we.
We didn't imagine it either.
00:49:57
- Big difference.
00:50:01
- When did the bar open?
00:50:02
- 8 o'clock in the morning.
00:50:04
- Now, you better
be here at 8:00.
00:50:06
Or else they'll be
knocking down the door.
00:50:08
- Well, what was she like
in there, was she, you know
00:50:11
if there was trouble, did --
did anybody get into fights?
00:50:14
- She cut off what's his name,
Harry Allerman
00:50:17
she cut him off, told him
he couldn't come in anymore.
00:50:19
- Why, what was he doing,
screamin', yellin'?
00:50:21
- Well, you know,
he was just a drunk.
00:50:23
- So would you, would you --
00:50:24
Was she like a tough person
to deal with?
00:50:26
- No!
- She was a pussycat.
00:50:29
- When, uh, when my
last daughter was born
00:50:31
she came to the hospital
with me.
00:50:33
- Oh, really?
- Yeah.
00:50:34
Yeah, she came
to the hospital with me.
00:50:36
- She was just --
she was just good
00:50:38
like, she'd goof with ya.
00:50:40
You know, you'd goof with her
and she -- right back at you
00:50:43
you know, right back at you.
00:50:46
- What was Ev's bar like?
00:50:47
- Uh, it was like,
uh, cheers.
00:50:51
Everybody knows everybody else
and everybody's business.
00:50:54
- Do you think she liked
working there?
00:50:55
- Oh, she loved it. Yeah.
- Yeah?
00:50:57
- Oh, yeah.
That bar was her home.
00:50:59
She was the queen
of the place.
00:51:02
Some of the people at the bar
used to think I was her
boyfriend.
00:51:05
But I don't think
the people at the bar
00:51:07
had any idea she was gay.
00:51:08
- Hmm.
00:51:10
- I don't, in fact,
I'm positive they didn't
know about it.
00:51:13
- Oh, yeah. Everybody
knew that she was gay.
00:51:16
- Oh, really?
- Oh, yeah. Everybody knew.
00:51:18
And let's put it this way,
she was one of the boys.
00:51:21
I mean, guys used to borrow
money off her.
00:51:24
- Borrow money from her?
- Yeah.
00:51:26
Everybody in there gambled
in one way or another.
00:51:31
- Kitty was arrested
for something
00:51:34
or charged with something.
00:51:35
What was that about?
00:51:37
- Not that I knew of.
00:51:38
- What do you guys
know about that?
00:51:39
- No, I don't,
I don't remember that.
00:51:42
- What she would do
00:51:44
people would give her bets
to give to the bookie.
00:51:46
- Hmm.
00:51:48
And she got caught
in the middle.
00:51:49
People were giving
her bets and they said
00:51:51
"You're booking the horses."
That's, that's what happened.
00:51:53
She got locked up or something
for that one time. Yeah.
00:51:56
- I didn't know my sister
was such a racketeer.
00:51:59
[laughing]
00:52:00
[instrumental music]
00:52:03
- Apparently,
Kitty's arrest is the source
00:52:05
of the most famous
picture of her.
00:52:07
For years, I wondered
where did this image
come from?
00:52:11
It wasn't until I looked
closely that I noticed
00:52:14
a piece of string
hanging around her neck.
00:52:17
A piece of string
that would have held up
00:52:19
her arrest identification.
00:52:23
So this was her mug shot.
00:52:26
It's hard for me
to picture that Kitty
00:52:28
when I think about the one
we saw when she come to visit.
00:52:33
She seemed right at home
in that role.
00:52:37
But she also seems to have
thrived in New York City.
00:52:41
Zipping around
in her little red Fiat.
00:52:45
Coming home alone
late at night.
00:52:49
[music continues]
00:52:56
There's one more person
who can tell me more about
00:52:59
Kitty's life in the city,
her lover Mary Ann.
00:53:04
She used to come to New Canaan
with Kitty on weekends.
00:53:08
I assumed
they were just roommates.
00:53:11
After Kitty died, we never
spoke to her again.
00:53:19
She declined to be
interviewed on camera.
00:53:23
But she did agree to let me
record our conversation.
00:53:30
[indistinct chattering]
00:53:35
Mary Ann, I --
I was always curious
00:53:36
how did you and Kitty meet?
00:53:39
- It was either
the Duchess or the Sea Colony
00:53:40
I don't remember the name.
00:53:42
I was sitting at the bar
having a beer
00:53:43
and this woman comes up
to me and said
00:53:45
"Don't I know you
from somewhere?"
00:53:46
I said, "Well, no."
00:53:48
So then I said, "Well, I live
at 74th and Broadway."
00:53:51
I had a room and there's
a payphone across the street.
00:53:55
And so somehow she found it.
00:53:56
So I had a note on the door
when I came back home.
00:54:00
"I'm gonna call you at 7:00
on this payphone."
00:54:02
So she called me.
00:54:03
[telephone ringing]
00:54:06
I fell very much
in love with her. Mmm.
00:54:11
- Do you think Kitty
was in love with you as much?
00:54:14
- I'm not sure.
00:54:15
I think she had conflicts
about being gay.
00:54:17
Because we would have,
we would have arguments
around this.
00:54:21
I think in time,
she would have worked it out.
00:54:24
But she didn't have
the chance.
00:54:28
- On the 13th, did you hear
anything that night?
00:54:32
- This is hard because
I blocked a lot of this out.
00:54:35
The police woke me up.
They knocked on the door.
00:54:37
- Hmm.
00:54:39
- We went down to the morgue,
4 o'clock in the morning.
00:54:45
That's when I identified her.
00:54:49
I remember sitting
outside on the bench
00:54:51
and they said,
"We're gonna take you home."
00:54:54
I said, "No, I'm gonna
wait for her."
00:54:59
- What about Karl Ross,
do you remember him?
00:55:02
- She cried out to him, right?
- Yeah.
00:55:04
- He had the pet shop,
that's how we met him.
00:55:07
- Oh!
- He got the poodle for me.
00:55:09
We had an argument
and she bought it for me.
00:55:12
His name was Andrew.
00:55:15
Somewhere around the funeral,
your father,
he came down there
00:55:18
and he said, "I want the dog
because it's Kitty's."
00:55:21
I said, "No, it's mine."
00:55:23
Thanksgiving afternoon
00:55:25
I woke up, the dog
was just gone.
00:55:27
Just gone.
I never saw him again.
00:55:30
- I remembered,
after Kitty passed
00:55:33
Andrew appears at our house.
00:55:37
And I thought it was my dad's
way of cheering my mother up.
00:55:41
And it did just the opposite.
- Hmm.
00:55:44
- I remember her saying,
"The dog needs to go back."
00:55:48
Then he disappeared.
00:55:50
I can't, I mean,
that's terrible.
00:55:53
I apologize
for my family for that.
00:55:55
That's -- that's awful.
00:56:02
- A trauma can be so bad
00:56:05
that it tears you up,
but somehow you have to heal
00:56:07
but right now,
I haven't healed.
00:56:10
You know, you feel you could
have saved somebody
00:56:12
if you only knew?
That's what I feel.
00:56:15
- I totally understand that.
00:56:19
- I slept with her shirt
for a long time.
00:56:24
- What do you think needs
to happen for you to heal?
00:56:28
[Mary Ann sighs]
00:56:30
- I don't know.
I really don't know.
00:56:35
Have you ever gone
to his parole hearings?
00:56:38
- No.
00:56:40
- Maybe facing him
and seeing this
00:56:43
reprehensible human,
not even human being
00:56:47
would make me say,
"That's it."
00:56:53
- You say that you remember
almost nothing of the murder?
00:56:57
- The details of it, no.
00:57:00
- Uh, it -- it sort of
00:57:01
it -- the length of time
00:57:04
when it was reconstructed
was approximately 32 minutes.
00:57:06
Is a total blank?
00:57:09
- I remember the street.
00:57:11
I remember the act itself..
00:57:15
...but the details, no.
00:57:17
- You remember the act itself?
- Yes.
00:57:20
- And what was it?
00:57:21
- The act was the --
the swinging of a knife.
00:57:25
And that, uh,
really doesn't take a lot
00:57:29
to kill a person, I guess.
00:57:34
- Could anything be gained
from sitting down
00:57:36
with Winston Moseley?
00:57:40
In his 49 years in prison,
I never seriously
considered it.
00:57:44
After all, Moseley not only
killed my sister
00:57:47
he destroyed my family.
00:57:52
My parents
never really recovered.
00:57:55
My mother had a stroke
the year after Kitty's murder.
00:58:01
My father died of a stroke,
when he was only 59.
00:58:08
My mother's faith got her
through those years
00:58:10
and she said she forgave
Moseley in her heart.
00:58:17
Before I try to meet him
face to face
00:58:20
I need to know more about him.
00:58:22
[instrumental music]
00:58:31
- Winston Moseley
was arrested 5 days
after my sister's murder
00:58:35
while stealing a television
from a house in Queens.
00:58:38
This time, a neighbor
was good enough to intervene.
00:58:42
- How are you, sir?
- I'm good.
00:58:44
- So, he saw Winston
going into the house?
00:58:47
- Well my father was sitting
on a porch like he usually did.
00:58:50
He saw this gentleman
went into Banister's home
00:58:53
and my father says,
"What are you doing here?"
00:58:55
And he made a break
down the hill
00:58:58
and my father catches him
00:58:59
fell on top of him
and he couldn't move.
00:59:02
So he just called
the police department.
00:59:05
They came right away.
00:59:07
They put him in a patrol car
and took him away.
00:59:11
- His demeanor was what?
00:59:14
- He was just
as calm as can be.
00:59:15
- Really?
00:59:16
- Just as calm as can be.
00:59:19
And nobody came to my father's
00:59:22
to the house when we lived here
00:59:24
to sit down and say thank you.
00:59:27
You're the only one.
00:59:31
- Somebody brought
in this small
00:59:34
meek-looking black guy.
00:59:37
And they brought the prisoner
00:59:38
up to the detective office.
00:59:40
One of the detectives
got an idea.
00:59:42
He said,
"Hey, you know that guy
00:59:44
"he looks like
he could be -- match
00:59:46
the description of the --
the person who killed
Kitty Genovese."
00:59:51
And we started
to question him.
00:59:55
By the time we got done
talking to him
00:59:57
we knew we had one of the, uh,
most bloodthirsty killers
01:00:00
that I had ever met.
01:00:02
[scanner beeps]
01:00:06
- Okay.
01:00:08
- I was sitting
pretty much where you are.
01:00:12
And Winston Moseley sat in that
table right over there.
01:00:18
The best word to describe
01:00:20
Winston Mosley, is ice.
01:00:23
Nothing fazed him at all.
01:00:26
Nothing fazed him.
01:00:28
- My dad was assigned
to represent
01:00:31
uh, Winston Moseley.
01:00:33
I was like a junior partner
in the office at the time
01:00:37
and Moseley was
a very, very bright
01:00:40
and manipulative individual.
01:00:43
He had an IQ of 135.
He had two children.
01:00:47
He had a good, well-paying job.
01:00:50
He was very soft-spoken.
01:00:52
The confession as
to Kitty's killing
01:00:54
just, sort of,
flowed normally as
01:00:58
as part of...
his conversational tone.
01:01:01
- So it was, like,
"I stole a TV and, by the way
01:01:03
I killed this person?"
01:01:05
- Essentially.
01:01:06
[instrumental music]
01:01:11
- Moseley also confessed
to the murder of a woman
01:01:14
named Annie Mae Johnson.
01:01:16
He murdered her
outside her house
01:01:18
two weeks
before he killed Kitty.
01:01:21
According to Moseley,
he approached her
01:01:23
as she was getting out
of her car at night.
01:01:25
He shot her four times
in the stomach
with a .22 rifle.
01:01:31
He then rolled
her body into the house
01:01:33
and raped her while her
unwitting family members
01:01:36
were upstairs.
01:01:38
She was still breathing
01:01:40
so he wadded up
some newspaper..
01:01:42
...piled them around her,
and lit the house on fire.
01:01:51
Two weeks after
he killed Annie Mae Johnson..
01:01:53
...Moseley crossed
Kitty's path.
01:02:00
While he was
attacking my sister
01:02:02
he knew people were watching.
01:02:05
He heard Robert Mozer
yell down
01:02:07
from the 7th floor
of the Mowbray.
01:02:11
He ran to his car,
sat for a few minutes
01:02:15
and decided that no one
was going to intervene.
01:02:19
So he changed hats
and headed back
01:02:21
to rape and murder my sister.
01:02:27
When he found her inside
the vestibule, Kitty screamed.
01:02:33
He heard the door open
at the top of the stairs
01:02:35
but quickly realized Karl Ross
was going to do nothing.
01:02:39
[music continues]
01:02:43
As he drove away from
Kew Gardens after the murder
01:02:47
Moseley crossed paths
with a driver
01:02:49
who had fallen asleep
at a red light.
01:02:52
He approached the car..
01:02:56
...held his knife
out of sight..
01:03:00
...gently woke
the driver and sent him
safely on his way.
01:03:13
The jury found Moseley guilty
and sentenced him to death.
01:03:19
But Moseley appealed
and his sentence was reduced
01:03:22
to life in prison.
01:03:27
And that should have been
the last anyone
01:03:28
heard of Winston Moseley.
01:03:34
However, in 1968,
Moseley escaped from prison
01:03:38
and terrorized Buffalo,
New York.
01:03:41
Over the next four days
01:03:43
he broke into houses,
raped a woman at gunpoint..
01:03:47
...and took hostages
when the FBI closed in.
01:03:56
Neil Welch ran the FBI office
in Buffalo at the time
01:04:00
and he was the first
to arrive at the scene.
01:04:03
- And I walked
immediately over
01:04:04
and stood in the front
of the building..
01:04:07
...and he said,
"Come in." you know.
01:04:10
He sat in a chair and
we were about 5 or 6 feet apart
01:04:14
and he's got the gun
pointed at me.
01:04:17
I had a gun in my left pocket.
01:04:20
I had a direct shot
right at him.
01:04:24
- But, but in that direct
confrontation
01:04:26
your take on him was..
01:04:29
- Dangerous.
- Yeah.
01:04:30
- But..
01:04:33
Well, I felt comfortable
in talking to him.
01:04:37
I put my hand out and I said
01:04:39
"Let me have the gun, Winston."
01:04:42
You have my guarantee that
you will be treated fairly .
01:04:49
One thing that I,
I was taken aback with
01:04:52
was how small he was.
01:04:56
You know,
I almost expected a larger
01:04:59
presentation of -- of evil.
01:05:05
- Since his escape, Moseley
seems to have transformed
himself.
01:05:09
- I'm going to continue
to try to do positive
01:05:12
instructive things
01:05:14
to try to make up
for those crimes.
01:05:17
- In 1977, he completed
his sociology degree
01:05:20
from the confines of a cell.
01:05:23
That year, he also wrote
an editorial
in the New York Times
01:05:26
claiming he was reformed.
01:05:35
- This process is, is really,
a -- aimed at helping you.
01:05:40
We know that by helping you,
we're probably going to help
01:05:43
Winston, assuming that
he is in a position
01:05:45
to meet with you voluntarily
and whether or not
01:05:47
you know, he's remorseful
for what he did.
01:05:49
So maybe we could start it off
by talking about
01:05:52
you know, what it is
you're trying to accomplish
01:05:54
by having a meeting, uh,
with, uh, Winston Moseley.
01:05:57
- I'm curious as to
what his life was like
01:05:59
over the last 49 years.
01:06:01
Here, he murdered two people.
01:06:04
How does he think about that?
- Mm-hmm.
01:06:06
- What did he think
about the events?
01:06:07
If, if he wants to offer that.
- Mm-hmm.
01:06:10
- If that opens him up to where
he has things he wants to say
01:06:15
so be it. Let's hear it.
01:06:19
- What about if he says no,
he's not willing to participate?
01:06:30
- Well, I think
it'd be unfortunate..
01:06:35
...on one level.
01:06:37
And then,
on another level I think..
01:06:40
Well, that's a relief.
01:06:43
- Drink ourselves funny.
- Did you open my wine?
01:06:46
- Oh, that one,
you got it.
01:06:48
- Where's the stuff
on the bottom?
01:06:51
- Where is it, I don't know.
01:06:52
- I've got a bowl of pasta
01:06:54
with no clams.
That's -- how'd you do that?
01:06:57
- No there is.
01:06:59
- Uh, some people say
they called the cops
01:07:01
the cops didn't react
because there was a bar
01:07:04
in this quiet neighborhood,
there was a bar
01:07:06
you know, people like,
it's again like a Rorschach
01:07:08
it's like, what do you see
in this senseless pattern
01:07:12
so we're trying
to get with Moseley.
01:07:16
Send him an email.
01:07:19
- You sent him an email?
01:07:20
- Yep.
- Wow.
01:07:22
- Bill.
01:07:26
- What?
- What?
01:07:27
- What's the, um..
01:07:31
What's the question, um..
01:07:33
What's the question..
What do you want answered?
01:07:35
At what point are you
going to be satisfied?
01:07:38
- Well, the thing is,
sadly for me
01:07:40
one question leads
to another question
01:07:42
leads to another question
leads to 5 questions
01:07:44
leads to 10 questions,
and it's, uh
01:07:46
you know,
it's a geometrical thing.
01:07:48
- We're now sitting here
50 years later
01:07:50
we're still talking about Kitty.
01:07:53
And I'm okay with that..
01:07:55
- Yeah.
- But 50 years..
01:07:57
- If you buried it,
you should have.
01:08:00
You should have
because it's, it's..
01:08:03
It's ea -- it's easily
01:08:05
described as an obsession
on my part.
01:08:08
- I really need to.
01:08:10
- Bury it.
- Yeah.
01:08:18
[phone rings]
01:08:20
- Hello?
- Uh, hello, Bill.
01:08:22
Uh, this is Mark Collins,
and Janet is with me as well.
01:08:25
- Hi, Bill!
- Hi, Janet. How're you doing?
01:08:28
- Very good. How are you?
- Good.
01:08:30
- We met
with Winston Moseley.
01:08:32
We are very, uh..
01:08:35
...very, uh,
disappointed, however
01:08:37
as -- as,
as you will be that
01:08:40
he has chosen
not to pursue a dialogue
01:08:43
uh, process with you.
01:08:46
- You know, he was very
clear that he's been contacted
01:08:49
by multiple media sources
01:08:51
and he's just, as he put it,
"Tired of being exploited."
01:08:56
- You know, we know how
important this is for you
01:08:58
and so it was frustrating
for us to..
01:09:01
Obviously not nearly as
frustrating as you must feel.
01:09:04
- So is that
the final w -- word
01:09:06
or can I write a letter to him?
01:09:08
- You're certainly
not barred or prohibited
01:09:11
from writing a letter to him,
I just don't see
01:09:13
him changing his mind.
01:09:15
- Yeah. I really appreciate it.
- Okay.
01:09:18
- Thank you very much.
- Okay, bye-bye, Bill.
01:09:39
[knock on the door]
01:09:44
- Hi. Steven?
01:09:46
- Bill?
- Bill Genovese.
01:09:48
- Hi, I'm Steven.
- Yes.
01:09:49
- Nice to meet you.
01:09:51
- How do you like
to be addressed?
01:09:54
Reverend?
01:09:56
Reverend Moseley?
Or Steven Moseley? Or..
01:10:00
- However you feel
comfortable calling me.
01:10:02
- Steven, if it's okay.
- That's fine.
01:10:04
- I thought to be perfectly
straight with you
01:10:07
and to show you exactly
where I'm coming from
01:10:11
I spent many, many
hours and days writing this.
01:10:14
And in some places
it's gonna seem harsh
01:10:16
but I think that you probably
will be able to read it
01:10:20
and understand
where I'm coming from.
01:10:34
- Yeah, I, uh..
01:10:36
...I see how you feel about,
uh, what happened.
01:10:39
- Yeah.
- When I was 7 years old.
01:10:41
- Oh. No, I know.
01:10:43
I don't hold the son responsible
01:10:45
for the father's deeds.
01:10:46
Your dad won't talk to me..
01:10:49
...and I'm, uh,
trying to find a way
01:10:52
in my own heart
to forgive him.
01:10:54
- Can -- can I explain to you
what forgiveness does?
01:10:57
When you forgive people,
it's for yourself.
01:11:01
It's for you.
- Yeah.
01:11:02
- Uh..
01:11:03
How would you feel
about him getting paroled?
01:11:06
Because, um...you know
01:11:08
if it had not been
for the, uh, notoriety
01:11:11
of this story..
01:11:14
...he'd have probably been
paroled by now.
01:11:16
- But see my concern is
there's that part of him
01:11:19
that seems to be
a very good person
01:11:22
and there's that part of him
01:11:23
that maybe
he has no control over
01:11:26
that really is...for lack of
a better term, a monster.
01:11:32
- 50 years ago.
01:11:34
- 50 years ago, but my
concern is, where is he now?
01:11:39
- Only thing I know
is from what he's told me.
01:11:41
You know?
He said he just snapped out.
01:11:45
Because there was some racial
tensions going on back then.
01:11:48
And your sister was using a lot
of racial slurs at him and
01:11:53
he just lost it.
That's what he told me.
01:11:56
- Mm-hmm.
- So I, I don't know.
01:11:58
- Do you, do you realize
he killed another woman?
01:12:00
- I.. That's something
that I'm not real
01:12:02
uh, you know, sure of --
01:12:05
- And the other, the other
woman was African-American.
01:12:10
- Okay, well, maybe he did
do that. I don't know, you know?
01:12:13
- Yeah.
- Uh, that's something
we never discuss.
01:12:17
Um, I can only imagine
how you feel.
01:12:20
I don't know,
but I can imagine.
01:12:22
- Right.
- You took a loss,
your family took a loss.
01:12:25
And my family took a loss.
You know, it affected everybody.
01:12:29
My brother and I, we -- we
went through school with
01:12:32
uh, ridicule.
01:12:34
Uh, people, you know, they used
to pick with us and call us
01:12:39
children of a murderer
and all this.
01:12:41
So, what happened to your sister
01:12:44
changed my form
of thinking also....you know.
01:12:47
And I wanted to be
the good guy
01:12:49
and try to fix
the badness in the world.
01:12:52
Now, you know, um,
let me just say this here..
01:12:55
I, I was kind of..
01:12:59
...apprehensive about
talking to you.
01:13:01
From what I've understood
01:13:03
there was a Genovese
crime family.
01:13:07
Are you related to the crime
family of the Genovese?
01:13:09
- No, not at all.
01:13:10
- I've always, uh, been told
01:13:12
that, that it had been
the, the crime family that was
01:13:16
you know, that Kitty was from.
01:13:17
- Steven, between you and me
01:13:19
it's not true.
01:13:20
- Everybody in my family
says to me you know
01:13:23
"You're crazy, you shouldn't go
there. You may not come back"
01:13:26
- Ha.
01:13:28
- I said, "I'm not,
I'm not afraid to die."
01:13:31
I said, "If it's my time
to die, I'm ready to go."
01:13:35
- So you're not only
cordial for coming here
01:13:37
but you're courageous
for coming here.
01:13:41
- Yeah, uh...
I know that, uh..
01:13:45
...at some point
in a person's life
01:13:48
they have to move on,
you know, and, and
01:13:50
then you'll have some peace
of mind about it, you know?
01:13:54
And, you know,
hopefully, you know
01:13:57
we can put everything that's
happened behind us and move on.
01:14:09
- About a month after
talking with Steven Moseley
01:14:12
his father Winston
sent a letter.
01:14:14
He described in detail
a bizarre version
01:14:16
of what happened the night
of Kitty's murder.
01:14:19
According to him,
he was nothing more
than the getaway driver
01:14:23
for the true killer.
01:14:25
An Italian mobster
named Dominic.
01:14:29
"At that point, Dominic ran
at the woman
and I thought
01:14:32
"I was seeing him hitting her
01:14:34
"in her back with his fist.
I didn't know he had a knife.
01:14:39
""Why?" I asked.
01:14:41
""She owed me" was all he said.
01:14:45
"He said to me
in a very menacing way quote
01:14:49
""Not a word about tonight
to anyone.
01:14:52
""If you ever mention my name
01:14:54
""if you talk, you'll be sorry.
01:14:57
Your family will pay.""
01:14:59
And then it's
simply signed Winston Moseley.
01:15:06
Incredible.
01:15:09
- It's so delusional.
- Yeah.
01:15:12
It's kind of like, uh,
the human condition.
01:15:15
One believes their own bullshit
in evolving stories.
01:15:18
- Amazing. 50 years
and he's come up with this.
01:15:22
- Yeah.
01:15:26
[instrumental music]
01:15:56
[music continues]
01:16:04
It's hard to let go
when you can never know
the whole truth.
01:16:10
I'll never be able
to put myself
01:16:12
in the place of the neighbors.
01:16:14
- Welcome to our home.
01:16:16
- This is the bedroom.
01:16:27
- Hello.
- Hi.
01:16:29
The one in the bedroom
looks directly down
01:16:31
at the parking lot.
01:16:33
- And I can never really know
01:16:35
what it was like
for Kitty that night.
01:16:39
What thoughts
went through her mind.
01:16:43
Only once in 50 years
have I come close
01:16:45
to understanding.
01:16:48
It was July, 1967.
01:16:51
I was on patrol
near an enemy village.
01:16:57
[intense music]
01:17:10
[gunfire]
01:17:12
[indistinct chattering]
01:17:21
Lying in the middle of that
paddy, I was completely alone.
01:17:33
I thought of Kitty.
01:17:40
What was it like for her
when she realized
01:17:43
no one was going to save her?
01:17:50
[instrumental music]
01:17:53
But Marines
carried me to safety
01:17:56
and I lived
to tell the story.
01:17:59
- Whatever possessed you to go
running off into the paddy like
that?
01:18:01
- I'm a marine.
- How do you mean?
01:18:04
- I'm a marine.
I'll take care of 'em.
01:18:06
[indistinct chattering]
01:18:28
After 50 years, I felt
there was one more thing
I had to do.
01:18:40
- Hi, how are you?
- Good. How are you?
01:18:42
- I'm Shannon.
- Pleased to meet you, Shannon.
01:18:43
- Nice to meet you.
- Beeby?
01:18:45
- Yes.
01:18:46
[phone ringing]
01:18:49
- Hello.
- Michael?
01:18:51
- Yes.
- It's Bill Genovese.
01:18:53
I'm here with a woman
named Shannon Beeby
01:18:57
and she is going
to act out the
01:19:00
vocalizations here
on the street.
01:19:03
So of course the only person
we really have..
01:19:07
...is yourself,
who can give us a -- an idea
01:19:10
of how loud was it
in your apartment.
01:19:14
- The scream was so loud
01:19:18
that it woke me up
from a dead sleep.
01:19:21
I've never heard anything
in my life that loud.
01:19:25
[instrumental music]
01:19:54
[music continues]
01:20:17
[panting]
01:20:28
[screaming]
01:20:35
- Help me!
01:20:38
Help me!
01:20:40
Oh, my God, please help me.
01:20:43
Please, help me!
01:20:46
Help me!
01:20:49
[sobbing]
01:21:04
[indistinct muttering]
01:21:24
[sobbing]
Oh, God..
01:21:40
[Shannon screaming]
01:21:44
Help!
01:21:52
[instrumental music]
01:22:19
- Thank you.
01:22:23
[music continues]
01:22:37
- Bill, how you doing?
How's everything?
01:22:40
- Good.
- Good to see you.
01:22:44
- This is unbelievable.
01:22:45
- I know.
01:22:47
She was my friend
and I knew she was hurt.
01:22:50
And I..
And she needed help.
01:22:52
That was -- that was my reason
01:22:54
for flying down those stairs.
01:22:58
And then when I came in
01:22:59
I'll never forget the black..
01:23:06
It kills me
when I think about it.
01:23:09
The black leather gloves
and all cuts
01:23:12
all through the gloves
on her both hands.
01:23:17
[sobbing]
I only hope
01:23:20
that she knew it was me.
01:23:22
That she wasn't alone.
01:23:26
- This is the youngest, Frank
01:23:29
and this is the oldest, Vin.
01:23:31
So it was Kitty, Vin, Susan
01:23:34
Bill and then Frank.
01:23:35
This is our granddaughter.
- Oh, she's beautiful.
01:23:42
- I've come to realize
that the whole truth
01:23:44
about Kitty's death
will never be known.
01:23:47
But maybe that's why the story
continues to fascinate people.
01:23:51
- You really only
had to know one thing
01:23:53
to appreciate how
misleading that lead was.
01:23:57
- And if nothing else,
it got us
01:23:59
to think about
what we owe each other.
01:24:01
- To not only be vigilant
but to get involved
01:24:03
and to help in
any capacity that we can.
01:24:10
[instrumental music]
01:24:16
- 50 years
after Kitty's death,
I still miss her.
01:24:25
I wish she had the chance
to know her nieces
and nephews.
01:24:30
To meet her grand-niece
who's named after her.
01:24:35
But this journey
has taught me and my family
01:24:37
more about Kitty than
we ever thought we'd know.
01:24:45
[music continues]
01:24:52
- For some reason or other,
she really took
01:24:54
a-a liking to Billy,
more than me.
01:24:57
- Although I remember,
one time
01:24:59
I didn't eat
my spaghetti and she
01:25:01
dumped the spaghetti
on my head.
01:25:03
- Yes! Really?
- Yeah.
01:25:07
Kitty taught me to never
stop asking questions.
01:25:11
But I know
she'd want me to move on.
01:25:18
[instrumental music]
01:25:42
[instrumental music]
01:25:54
♪ God is in the roses ♪
01:26:00
♪ The petals and the thorns ♪
01:26:06
♪ Storms out on the oceans ♪
01:26:11
♪ The souls who will be born ♪
01:26:17
♪ And every drop
of rain that falls ♪
01:26:23
♪ Falls for those who mourn ♪
01:26:28
♪ God is in the roses ♪
01:26:32
♪ And the thorns ♪
01:26:37
[instrumental music]
01:26:45
♪ The sun is on the cemetery ♪
01:26:51
♪ Leaves are on the stones ♪
01:26:57
♪ There never
was a place on Earth ♪
01:27:02
♪ That felt so much like home ♪
01:27:08
♪ We're falling like
the velvet petals ♪
01:27:14
♪ We're bleeding
and we're torn ♪
01:27:19
♪ But God is in the roses ♪
01:27:23
♪ And the thorns ♪♪
01:27:28
[music continues]
01:27:58
[music continues]
01:28:28
[music continues]
01:29:02
[music continues]
