00:00:06
Ryan Wolf, welcome to my podcast. Yeah,
00:00:08
we got here eventually. Well, I was
00:00:11
going back through uh our DMs and um you
00:00:15
first messaged me in April 2022 about
00:00:18
being a podcast guest. Wow. Was it that
00:00:20
long ago? And so this was at the
00:00:22
beginning of my podcast journey and um
00:00:24
pretty much the beginning of yours as
00:00:25
well. We started sort of similar times.
00:00:27
I would have been about five, six months
00:00:29
in at that point. Yeah. Yeah. And my
00:00:31
god, you've done so well since then. So,
00:00:33
you're uh New Zealand's top true crime
00:00:36
podcaster.
00:00:38
Australia's top true crime podcaster. H
00:00:40
I mean, I don't know. Um I'd hope I'm
00:00:43
giving Hedley Thomas a run for his
00:00:44
money, but um who's that? I mean,
00:00:45
Hedley, he's a big true crime podcaster
00:00:48
in Australia. um sort of someone I
00:00:50
looked up to and as the bar when I
00:00:52
started my podcast uh in terms of
00:00:55
investigative work, which is what we do
00:00:57
um you know, investigating a case, not
00:00:59
just telling the story of a case. Uh but
00:01:02
yeah, I mean I'm certainly up there
00:01:03
Australasian wise, I guess. Oh, I mean,
00:01:06
you're doing so well. 7 million
00:01:08
downloads so far over five seasons of
00:01:11
Guilt. Yeah. Yeah. Um crazy. Yeah. I uh
00:01:16
I think back to the time I remember I
00:01:18
I'll never forget the time I was sitting
00:01:19
there with my wife and on the bed and I
00:01:21
was like, "Wow, 200 downloads in a day,
00:01:24
you know, and then you fast forward a
00:01:25
couple years and you're talking
00:01:26
millions." It's it's crazy. Yeah, it
00:01:28
really is. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack
00:01:32
with um the Ryan Wolf and the guilt uh
00:01:34
journey so far. And I mentioned on
00:01:36
Instagram you were coming on the podcast
00:01:38
and there was so many fan questions,
00:01:40
right? So, I feel like there's going to
00:01:41
be two sorts of people are listening.
00:01:42
the majority will probably probably be
00:01:44
fans of Guilt and your work. Um maybe
00:01:47
thirsty women who like your voice.
00:01:50
Uh and then there'll be people that
00:01:51
maybe have no idea who you are. So who
00:01:54
is Ryan Wolf and what is guilt? Yeah. So
00:01:57
uh I suppose we'll start with the
00:01:59
podcast part first. So guilt is Yeah.
00:02:01
It's an investigative true crime
00:02:02
podcast. So each season uh I sort of
00:02:06
pick a new case and um on the ground
00:02:09
generally a historical case unsolved uh
00:02:12
and then I go on the ground to the place
00:02:15
you know wherever it took place like my
00:02:16
first season was in Paido in New Zealand
00:02:19
and you start speaking to everyone and
00:02:20
go through all the witnesses and you
00:02:22
know sort of try and solve the case I
00:02:24
guess. Um and that's the podcast and I
00:02:26
take people on that journey. Uh, when I
00:02:29
try to describe it to people that don't
00:02:31
know sort of what an Investigative True
00:02:32
Crime podcast is, I sort of say it's
00:02:35
like those Netflix documentaries you
00:02:36
watch, but except it's audio, you know,
00:02:39
each episode follows on uh, you know,
00:02:41
and one season could be 25 episodes
00:02:44
long. Uh, and it just follows my
00:02:46
journey. I take people along on that
00:02:47
ride, you know, down the rabbit holes
00:02:51
sometimes that are successful, some that
00:02:52
aren't. Um, yeah. And so that's it in in
00:02:55
a nutshell. And then me, yeah, I mean,
00:02:58
I'm the host, the guy that makes it, and
00:03:00
it's pretty much a one-man band. Uh,
00:03:02
started it, yeah, like you said, around
00:03:04
the time you did, November 2021. Uh,
00:03:07
I've got a background in law. Did my law
00:03:09
degree in Yetto and my professional
00:03:11
studies there as well, like our bar exam
00:03:14
back in 2014.
00:03:16
Uh, but I never actually practiced law,
00:03:18
but it was a great sort of background to
00:03:21
have, I guess, for this. And I like to
00:03:24
say I guess I'm a bit of an accidental
00:03:26
journalist. I I didn't set out to do
00:03:28
this. This is just sort of the way
00:03:30
things happened, I guess. So, you got
00:03:32
the law degree, then you dabbled in a
00:03:34
bit of acting. Did you want to be an
00:03:35
actor? You know, like it's funny if I
00:03:38
went right back to school. I was always
00:03:39
doing drama and that kind of thing. And
00:03:41
um you never really think about these
00:03:43
things as like a serious career. And at
00:03:45
some point, I think do you remember when
00:03:46
Spartacus the first show was being made?
00:03:49
I don't know how long ago that was, 10
00:03:50
years, 12 years ago. And um I had the
00:03:52
opportunity to audition for that. I did
00:03:55
a stunt course and and ended up um
00:03:57
that's where I actually met Art Green on
00:03:58
there. He was on there at the same time
00:04:00
as me and we were both doing this sort
00:04:01
of we called ourselves mini stunt men on
00:04:03
there and I started with that and then
00:04:05
ended up doing sort of Shortland Street
00:04:06
and a bunch of other different shows. Um
00:04:09
I had a a short but busy acting career
00:04:11
in New Zealand. I would I would say uh
00:04:14
let's just say my podcast career is more
00:04:16
successful. Were you were you um were
00:04:19
you nude on Spartacus? I could have, but
00:04:22
no, I was like, "No, no, I think we
00:04:24
we'll we'll leave um some things to the
00:04:25
imagination cuz I never really got into
00:04:27
Spartacus in a big way." But um I just
00:04:29
remember like it was just obscene
00:04:31
amounts of nudity, right? Yeah. I mean,
00:04:34
it at the time as a young man, I think
00:04:37
it was it was quite exciting to go work
00:04:39
on Spartacus and there were a few closed
00:04:41
sets. Um but yeah. Yeah, that was that's
00:04:43
what it was. It was um yeah, there was a
00:04:46
lot of that kind of stuff on Spartacus.
00:04:47
Um, I did mainly stunt sort of stuff, so
00:04:49
I wasn't really involved in that, but I
00:04:51
did I was part of sort of one scene
00:04:53
standing in the background kind of
00:04:54
thing. Um, but yeah, I kept my clothes
00:04:56
on. So, um, what was your connection
00:04:58
with Art Green? Was this pre-bachelor?
00:05:00
Yeah, pre-bachelor, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:02
Yeah. So, we met on Spartacus, I
00:05:04
remember. And, um, yeah, Art was cool.
00:05:06
And a couple other people, Mitch
00:05:08
McClendigan as well. Um, yeah, we sort
00:05:10
of hung out on Spartacus and then after
00:05:12
that, I think Art went to Aussie sort of
00:05:14
thing and disappeared for a couple
00:05:15
years. And I remember next thing we knew
00:05:17
that um yeah, he was going to be the
00:05:19
bachelor I think. I can't remember if it
00:05:20
was at his birthday or something told
00:05:22
me, but yeah. And then now Art is Art as
00:05:24
we all know. I I've got a theory that um
00:05:27
Art Well, not not just Art and Matilda
00:05:29
ruined the whole Bachelor franchise in
00:05:31
New Zealand because uh he was he was so
00:05:34
hot and so nice and she was so hot and
00:05:37
so nice and they're a successful couple
00:05:39
and they just they paved the way for
00:05:41
future series and no no one else could
00:05:44
match The bar was too high. That show
00:05:46
peaked in its first season and then it
00:05:48
was all downhill from there. Yeah.
00:05:50
Season 2, season 3, season 4, everyone's
00:05:52
like, "Oh, the Bachelor's all right, but
00:05:53
he's no art." Great. Yeah. Just ruined
00:05:56
it. Destroyed the whole franchise. Yeah.
00:05:58
Yeah. Well, it certainly seems that way.
00:06:00
Yeah. And then um so Shortland Street,
00:06:02
you were on five episodes of Shortland
00:06:03
Street in 2015 as a character. Oh, do
00:06:05
you remember your character name? I
00:06:07
think it was Was it Dan Brown? I think
00:06:09
Dan Jackson. Dan Jackson. Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:11
You can't even remember the character
00:06:13
name. Yeah. Yeah, I remember when I went
00:06:14
in for that, you know, this was right
00:06:16
around a time when, you know, you sort
00:06:18
of get into acting and um I many people
00:06:22
probably go through this where suddenly
00:06:23
you get a flurry of things happening at
00:06:24
the same time and you know at one point
00:06:27
it sort of looked like you know this
00:06:29
could really go somewhere. I remember
00:06:30
going to the audition for Shan Street
00:06:32
for this role and it was just for a
00:06:34
couple weeks, you know, five episodes or
00:06:36
whatever it is. And I remember them
00:06:38
saying like, you know, um, this is only
00:06:41
a small role. Are you sure you want to
00:06:43
take this? Kind of almost implying like,
00:06:45
hang around and we might be able to give
00:06:46
you something bigger if you hang on, you
00:06:48
know, a bit longer. But I was hungry at
00:06:50
that time and I just wanted to sort of
00:06:51
get out there and do something. So, I
00:06:53
did it. Um, yeah, it was cool. It's a
00:06:55
different vibe to other shows I've done.
00:06:57
Shortland Street is very sort of like
00:07:00
everything happens very quick. A couple
00:07:01
takes at it moving on. Um but yeah, that
00:07:03
that was that was a bit of fun. Uh yeah,
00:07:05
I can't remember when what year that was
00:07:07
now, but um 2015 according to IMDb.
00:07:10
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. 2015. Uh
00:07:12
but yeah. Yeah, good times. Who was Who
00:07:15
was um Dan Jackson? Was Was it a
00:07:17
memorable character or um Yeah, I guess
00:07:20
I guess so. So, he was um he was Grace's
00:07:24
boyfriend in the show. Uh he was he he
00:07:27
came on I think he was an IT guy or
00:07:29
something like that and then he I ended
00:07:30
up I was um seeing Grace's character but
00:07:34
then it turned out I had a wife on the
00:07:36
side sort of thing. Uh yeah so I wasn't
00:07:38
a great character in the show but yeah
00:07:41
not much to him really. Um just yeah bit
00:07:44
of a skull duggerous character I guess.
00:07:47
So yes so it seems like you were like
00:07:49
poking around in a few bits and pieces.
00:07:50
So, you got you got your law degree, but
00:07:52
it sounds like you didn't necessarily
00:07:53
want to implement it and go down that
00:07:55
path straight away. So, you're doing a
00:07:56
bit of acting. Um, you were telling me
00:07:58
just before we went into the studio
00:07:59
today that you were you were mining some
00:08:01
cryptocurrency for a while. Like, what
00:08:04
what would you be doing now if the
00:08:05
podcast didn't come along? Yeah. So, how
00:08:08
many years ago now? Probably about seven
00:08:09
years ago. Um, me and my now wife
00:08:12
started sort of a property journey and
00:08:15
we didn't really have a lot of money. I
00:08:17
remember at the time, you know, use our
00:08:18
Kiwi Saver and stuff and and we bought a
00:08:21
section and relocated a house. We had a
00:08:23
house that we got for free, like an old
00:08:25
um uh what do you call it? State home
00:08:27
type thing. Oh, like a removal house.
00:08:29
Yeah. So, we were told someone said,
00:08:31
"Hey, you can have this house. It's um
00:08:33
for free if you want. It's just going to
00:08:34
get demolished if you don't." And we
00:08:37
were like, "Okay, can we make this
00:08:38
work?" So, we relocated this house onto
00:08:40
a section and uh did it up and sold it.
00:08:44
And then that started a sort of run for
00:08:45
the next six, seven years. that's what
00:08:47
we were doing and that sort of gave me
00:08:49
the freedom I guess to start the podcast
00:08:51
as well because as you'll know there's
00:08:54
so much time goes into these things um
00:08:56
that provided the background of being
00:08:58
able to sort of have income during that
00:09:00
time but yeah so property's been the
00:09:01
last sort of seven years uh and you know
00:09:04
then before that sort of dabbled in
00:09:06
various sort of business interests here
00:09:08
and there with friends or yeah but um
00:09:10
but yeah property's been more recent
00:09:12
years yeah does it feel like you've sort
00:09:14
of found your calling with um the
00:09:16
podcast though. This is it. This is you
00:09:18
for the foreseeable future. It's funny,
00:09:20
isn't it? When you sort of realize that,
00:09:22
you're like, "Shit, I guess this is me
00:09:24
now. I guess this I guess this is what
00:09:26
I'm doing." And um No, it does. I um I
00:09:30
Yeah, I mean, the amount of people that
00:09:31
have sort of said that and I guess yeah,
00:09:34
there's a point I realize like this is
00:09:36
obviously my calling. I seem to be good
00:09:38
at it or people think I am anyway. Um
00:09:40
and I love doing it. Uh it's an awesome
00:09:42
medium to get out to people and you know
00:09:45
there's something about podcasts that
00:09:46
particularly you know investigated ones
00:09:48
like mine and you can really make a real
00:09:51
difference and I see that day in and day
00:09:53
out and so um yeah this is this is me.
00:09:56
I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.
00:09:58
Yeah, this is exciting. It's exciting
00:10:00
cuz you you and I both start at the same
00:10:02
time and that year one we're probably
00:10:04
both in the same boat where it's like
00:10:06
it's it's it's it's a hobby. I want it
00:10:08
to be a thing, but I don't know if it's
00:10:10
going to be a I don't know where it's
00:10:11
going to go. Um, and we've I think we've
00:10:14
both done pretty well. You've I mean,
00:10:16
yeah, we both have. You've gone
00:10:17
international. Um, which which I
00:10:20
haven't. And they're very very different
00:10:22
genres. You know, mine's long form
00:10:23
interview, yours is true crime, but um
00:10:25
yeah, I'm so proud of the success you've
00:10:27
had. Yeah, it's been cool to sort of
00:10:28
watch both of us go along, you know, and
00:10:31
sort of ticking off those those sort of
00:10:33
milestones as we've come and, you know,
00:10:35
you see other people come and go in the
00:10:36
podcast space and but we've been able to
00:10:38
sort of stay stick through that. Um,
00:10:41
which is really cool. And yeah, you
00:10:43
know, like um yeah, going back I
00:10:45
suppose. Yeah, that was it was a humble
00:10:47
beginnings for me, that's for sure. And
00:10:48
and I I think at the beginning no
00:10:50
intention of this being a career or
00:10:52
monetizing making money. 100% I never
00:10:55
had that plan. Um, so to be sitting here
00:10:58
now talking to you and here and the
00:11:00
position the podcast is in is awesome.
00:11:02
Yeah. And both both of us entirely
00:11:04
independent as well. Yeah. Um, and
00:11:06
there's a badge of honor with that.
00:11:07
Actually, you're going back through our
00:11:09
old text exchange on Instagram. There's
00:11:11
even some messages there and some voice
00:11:13
notes where we're both uh we were both
00:11:15
un unsuccessful in um the awards once
00:11:18
year and we're both bitching about what
00:11:20
a croc of [ __ ] they are and now you're
00:11:23
the reigning supreme. So suddenly I'm
00:11:25
like, well, they're not actually a
00:11:27
crocer. Yeah. When you do well, it's
00:11:29
like, oh, it's a fair and just system.
00:11:31
When you don't do well, it's a crocker.
00:11:33
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So, let's run
00:11:35
through guilt. So, season 1. Yeah. Uh,
00:11:38
which came out in 2022, you're
00:11:39
investigating the 2012 murder of a paid
00:11:42
pizza owner. Yeah. Uh, Jordan Vidori.
00:11:46
So, it was I remember this some reason.
00:11:49
I don't know why. I remember I was at
00:11:50
the at a golf club once. Um I think when
00:11:53
when this must have happened when he was
00:11:55
murdered and I remember the story being
00:11:57
vaguely you know man shot in the streets
00:12:00
in paid and I remember thinking like wow
00:12:02
that's brazen like that that would
00:12:04
happen in a small town and then it just
00:12:06
sort of never got solved and it was
00:12:07
always something that stuck out to me
00:12:09
that how can a person sort of just get
00:12:11
shot and killed you know in the streets
00:12:13
of a small town in New Zealand and just
00:12:16
and this not get solved. just seemed
00:12:18
crazy to me. And over the years I
00:12:20
started listening to podcasts and then
00:12:22
true crime ones, you know, investigative
00:12:24
ones stuck out to me. And um yeah, I
00:12:28
just remember one Christmas I was at my
00:12:31
my wife's mother's house and they
00:12:33
started talking about this pie case cuz
00:12:35
they live near there in the Coramandal.
00:12:38
And I remember just saying I was like,
00:12:40
"Man, I should I should make a podcast
00:12:41
about that, you know, over a few wines
00:12:43
or whatever at Christmas." And and then
00:12:46
I actually did. And and that's kind of
00:12:47
how it started. I remember I went and
00:12:49
just bought like a Zoom microphone and
00:12:51
took in a diary and and I sort of walked
00:12:53
off the street into this into a shop in
00:12:56
Pya and it sort of all started there. Um
00:12:58
and everything sort of just rolled. But
00:13:00
yeah. Yeah. At that point, what were you
00:13:03
thinking it's going to be? You know
00:13:05
what? I didn't I had It's weird. I
00:13:08
genuinely had no plan. I didn't care
00:13:11
about downloads or anything. I just sort
00:13:13
of thought, I wonder if I can solve this
00:13:15
case. I was just interested in whether
00:13:17
locals were listening to it. I thought
00:13:19
that wasn't I needed locals to listen to
00:13:20
it in order to help my investigation,
00:13:23
but I genuinely never planned on it ever
00:13:26
being monetized or anything. And I
00:13:28
didn't care about downloads. Like it was
00:13:30
not a concern if I had one or two
00:13:32
downloads. Um Yeah. I mean, and I can
00:13:34
say that handon art. That's that's the
00:13:36
truth. Yeah. Yeah. So, you were just
00:13:38
enjoying it. Yeah. It was just like it
00:13:41
was just another sort of challenge,
00:13:42
another thing to do. And I've always
00:13:44
liked sort of being creative, uh, you
00:13:48
know, in different ways. And it just
00:13:49
sort of seemed like another sort of I
00:13:52
guess it's a little bit of a creative
00:13:53
outlet. And then also, yeah, I just
00:13:55
thought I thought I could give it a give
00:13:57
it a go. And there's no one no one I
00:13:59
could see doing it in New Zealand. And I
00:14:00
thought I probably had the right skills
00:14:02
to maybe do it. Yeah. And then season
00:14:05
two, um, the 2004 mysterious
00:14:08
disappearance of a man called Jim
00:14:09
Donnelly. Yeah, that is a uh a real
00:14:12
mystery. Did you did you know about him
00:14:14
or or after doing season one were you
00:14:16
just getting like messages in your inbox
00:14:18
from Yeah, it was slowly that kind of
00:14:20
came in that I actually remember uh the
00:14:23
reason I got onto Jim's case is because
00:14:25
I think there was an NZ Herald article
00:14:26
about it. I didn't know anything about
00:14:28
this case and I remember reading it and
00:14:29
thinking wow that is crazy. He
00:14:31
disappeared. So the story is from the
00:14:33
Glen Brook steel mill which is um up
00:14:35
near Wuku. Big steel mill big business
00:14:38
in New Zealand. And Jim was they call
00:14:41
him a scientist but not necessarily but
00:14:44
I guess we'll just say he was a
00:14:45
scientist that worked there. He uh he
00:14:48
goes to work one day um buys a muffin
00:14:50
and a coffee on his way to work. Goes
00:14:52
into work. He's acting kind of strange a
00:14:54
little bit at work and then he literally
00:14:56
just disappears never to be seen again.
00:14:59
Uh, and I mean to this day never found
00:15:02
very little evidence apart from the fact
00:15:04
that a week after he disappeared in an
00:15:06
acid vat at the steel mill they found
00:15:09
sort of um his cards like some some
00:15:12
cards ID cards and his helmet. Um just
00:15:15
just some weird things like that that
00:15:17
seemed like some okay something's
00:15:18
happened here. I saw that I thought,
00:15:20
"Wow, this is an interesting case." And
00:15:22
then I just got hold of uh Jim's wife,
00:15:25
uh Tracy, and she agreed to that we
00:15:28
could do this podcast. And um yeah, and
00:15:30
I did. And it certainly stirred stirred
00:15:33
up the hornets nest out at out at the
00:15:35
mill. Um you know, certainly I feel like
00:15:38
we uncovered some I uncovered some new
00:15:40
evidence there in terms of the acid vat
00:15:42
and and what had happened with that. and
00:15:44
um the police, you know, I know that
00:15:47
they went back out there and they were
00:15:48
they were going through the mill and and
00:15:50
relooking at everything. So, I felt
00:15:51
like, you know, we did something, but
00:15:53
unfortunately didn't, you know, didn't
00:15:54
find Jim and and what happened, but
00:15:56
hopefully maybe that might still still
00:15:59
come.
00:16:00
Yeah. I suppose with this podcast, um
00:16:04
there doesn't necessarily need to be a
00:16:05
conclusion. Ideally, you'd want some
00:16:07
conclusion, but I suppose it's about the
00:16:08
uh journey rather than the destination.
00:16:10
Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing with
00:16:12
this type of podcast, you know. I mean,
00:16:13
I think I suppose it's setting that
00:16:16
expectation at the beginning. It's like
00:16:18
I learned this actually on my first
00:16:19
case. You sort of go out there thinking
00:16:21
like, I'm going to solve this case and
00:16:23
then you realize, okay, yeah, like it's
00:16:25
pretty naive to think that because it
00:16:27
it's not as simple as that. Um, and so
00:16:29
it's setting that expectation that when
00:16:31
people listen, it's, you know, it's not
00:16:33
just about that. There's not necessarily
00:16:34
going to be a a clean finish to this. Um
00:16:39
it's partly as well I think the podcast
00:16:41
has become a way to provide exposure to
00:16:43
cases that don't have it or maybe need
00:16:45
it. Um but yeah, I mean I think that's
00:16:48
part of the thing. It's I say it's this
00:16:50
is not going to be in a neat tidy bow
00:16:52
like a package. Um this is just my story
00:16:55
of the work that I've done on this
00:16:56
investigating the case. Uh yeah, but I
00:16:59
think people like that that sort of um
00:17:01
run and gun sort of style I guess. You
00:17:03
know, it's not overly produced too much.
00:17:06
Yeah. You mentioned before um Jim
00:17:08
Donny's wife Tracy. Um yeah. Is it
00:17:13
important for you to reach out to the
00:17:15
family first and and make sure they've
00:17:16
got buy in before you? Yeah. So when I
00:17:19
first started with Jordan's case, you
00:17:21
know, initially I sort of didn't do
00:17:23
that. Um as I started working on it,
00:17:26
then I did. And then I sort of realized
00:17:28
once I started working with his brother
00:17:30
and the family, I realized how important
00:17:32
that was to the story. And from then on,
00:17:35
every time I've always involved the
00:17:38
family to a degree. Um, and and at this
00:17:40
stage where I am now, I wouldn't take on
00:17:42
a case without a family's cooperation
00:17:44
and wanting to be involved. Uh, because
00:17:47
you need that as part of it. Um, yeah, I
00:17:50
I think it's really important. It adds
00:17:52
an element to the story, which is partly
00:17:54
as well telling the story of the person,
00:17:56
the victim, you know, like they're not
00:17:58
just a victim. They're they're a person
00:17:59
with a real story, with a real family
00:18:01
that cares. um that sometimes gets
00:18:03
forgotten about, you know, and
00:18:04
eventually it's just a story in the
00:18:06
newspaper, you know. Um so yeah, I for
00:18:08
me working with the family is is the
00:18:11
utmost importance. Yeah. Yeah. And I
00:18:13
suppose once you've got the buy in from
00:18:14
the family, like you've you've just got
00:18:15
this thing in your heart where downloads
00:18:18
aside, results, analytics aside, um you
00:18:21
know that you've got to do right by the
00:18:23
family. Yeah. It keeps you accountable
00:18:25
to that, you know, and I mean that is
00:18:27
the most important thing. And it's
00:18:28
probably something that people don't
00:18:30
see. it's, you know, they hear the
00:18:32
podcast and and they might hear how an
00:18:34
episode is, but, you know, they don't
00:18:35
know all the background factors going on
00:18:37
and and of course I always try to think
00:18:40
I don't want to make more victims out of
00:18:42
doing a story than there already are,
00:18:44
you know, by, you know, with a family. I
00:18:46
don't want to run them through a
00:18:48
gauntlet of crap that they don't need
00:18:50
to. And so many factors that come into
00:18:52
it. Yeah. Um Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:56
Yeah. It's a big responsibility, eh? And
00:18:58
it is. It is. you're you're telling this
00:19:01
person's story and and their story. Um,
00:19:04
the family's already been through enough
00:19:05
and Yeah. And I don't want to be, you
00:19:08
know, it's almost like, you know, one of
00:19:10
those, you know, those lawyers that
00:19:12
waits at the end of the ambulance, you
00:19:13
know, like I don't want to be one of
00:19:14
those journalists just looking Oh,
00:19:16
ambulance chaser. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
00:19:17
like an ambulance chasing journalist,
00:19:19
right? Like I I'm here for the right
00:19:20
reasons, not just to try and get
00:19:23
downloads, you know, that is totally
00:19:24
secondary to me. Um, and I take on
00:19:27
cases, you know, most journalists tend
00:19:30
to target cases, you know, like maybe a
00:19:32
young female victim and and hit these
00:19:35
demographics, whereas I've not done
00:19:36
that. I just look at a case and I feel
00:19:38
like if I connect with it and it and it
00:19:40
needs exposure, then I'll take it on.
00:19:42
Like I don't care what it is in order to
00:19:44
fit certain demographics, you know?
00:19:46
Yeah. Um, season 3 that was called
00:19:49
Finding Heidi about the 1989 Swedish
00:19:51
backpackers murder. Yeah. So, yeah. Who
00:19:54
was it? I I remember this vaguely. Um I
00:19:56
was in secondary school at the time.
00:19:57
Yeah. Um yeah and David Tamaheri was um
00:20:00
logged up for the murders. Yeah. So so
00:20:01
who was it? Heidi Heidi Parkin and and
00:20:04
Urban Hogland. So Seven Urban Hogland.
00:20:07
So yeah, it's this is this is probably
00:20:09
the case that well Jim's case in this
00:20:11
case really sort of uh got a lot of
00:20:14
exposure through my podcast. But um
00:20:16
yeah, this is one where you know I had
00:20:18
some contact with Heidi's family but not
00:20:20
a huge amount as opposed to a lot of my
00:20:23
other cases. But I really felt like this
00:20:25
was a story that was an important New
00:20:28
Zealand story. Um, someone came to me
00:20:32
and basically said that look, like
00:20:34
there's some things here that don't
00:20:35
quite add up. David Tamahetti's story
00:20:37
doesn't make sense what he's saying. And
00:20:40
so we started off looking at this this
00:20:41
stuff this person presented to me and I
00:20:43
thought, well, okay, like this this is
00:20:44
interesting. I'll have a look at this.
00:20:46
And uh, yeah, that that's ongoing to
00:20:50
this day. Um, I'm just thinking how many
00:20:53
episodes I've released of that. I mean,
00:20:54
there's probably been 30 different
00:20:55
episodes, but genuinely uncovered, you
00:20:58
know, more of the truth of what happened
00:21:00
in this case. Uh, that, you know, I
00:21:03
believe there was two perpetrators
00:21:05
involved in these murders. Um, you know,
00:21:08
David Tamahedi has always said that he's
00:21:10
innocent. Uh, you know, I'd say
00:21:13
otherwise, but at this stage, he's still
00:21:15
a convicted murderer. Uh, but his appeal
00:21:18
is ongoing. So he's appealing to the
00:21:19
Supreme Court right now and that's will
00:21:21
be in August and that's sort of his last
00:21:23
chance. But I think that podcast and
00:21:26
that season brought a lot of new
00:21:28
information out that has sort of never
00:21:30
been known and and then I've worked with
00:21:32
police on things that I can't speak
00:21:34
about. But um I sort of had to pause
00:21:37
that podcast cuz you sort of get to a
00:21:38
point it's like okay we're really
00:21:40
dealing with important stuff now and you
00:21:42
know more important than downloads and
00:21:45
people listening. This is about
00:21:46
actually, you know, trying to find this
00:21:48
poor girl's remains cuz sorry, this she
00:21:51
never got found. So they disappeared in
00:21:53
the bush in 1989.
00:21:55
Um in the Cormandal, right? Yep. Yeah.
00:21:57
So near Fongmatar Tim's sort of area and
00:22:00
so it was I believe one of the first
00:22:04
certainly the first murder in New
00:22:05
Zealand. I think that it was completely
00:22:07
circumstantial evidence. There was no
00:22:08
direct evidence, no murder weapon or
00:22:10
anything. David Tamahi was convicted.
00:22:13
And so what happened is the police had
00:22:14
built a case saying that this all
00:22:17
happened in this one particular area and
00:22:19
that the two that David Tami had buried
00:22:22
them over near Tames and then it turned
00:22:24
out that um a year and a half later a
00:22:28
hunter stumbled across Urban Hogland's
00:22:31
remains over near Fongamat 70 km away
00:22:34
from where the police case said that he
00:22:36
should be and there were elements like
00:22:38
the watch and things that didn't align.
00:22:41
Um, but you know, Tammy, he still wasn't
00:22:44
let out, but it showed that there's
00:22:46
there's some things that didn't add up
00:22:47
here. There's obviously more to this
00:22:49
story. Um, and I think when you listen
00:22:52
to the podcast, you'll find a lot of
00:22:54
those bits that have been missing from
00:22:55
the story, you know, are now in there.
00:22:58
Uh, yeah, but so they were never but her
00:23:01
body was never found. So, the remains of
00:23:02
her barn were found, but Heidi's remains
00:23:04
were never found. M um and that was how
00:23:06
I set out about that season of the
00:23:08
podcast, Finding Heidi, is I thought
00:23:11
surely there's probably like some
00:23:13
missing piece that might point towards
00:23:16
where she could be. Uh and that was sort
00:23:18
of always the goal to to find Heidi, not
00:23:20
necessarily to find out who did this,
00:23:22
but just where she might be. Um yeah,
00:23:25
and it's I can't talk too much about
00:23:28
where we're at now, but I can say, you
00:23:29
know, I feel like closer to finding her
00:23:31
now than anyone has ever been.
00:23:34
Wow.
00:23:36
Yeah. Is her family in Sweden still
00:23:38
alive? Uh, not her parents, but parts of
00:23:41
her family are. Um, you know, and this
00:23:43
is the sad thing with these older cases
00:23:45
is that, you know, people end up passing
00:23:47
away without ever knowing the truth of
00:23:49
what happened. And so, time is not on
00:23:51
your side when you're dealing with these
00:23:53
things and elderly people are are
00:23:55
passing away and but I find, you know,
00:23:57
the police in certain situations, you
00:24:00
know, they don't work quickly. These
00:24:01
things take a long time. Um, which can
00:24:03
be frustrating. That's another thing
00:24:05
I've had to learn about this whole
00:24:06
thing.
00:24:09
What do the police think of you in cases
00:24:11
like this? Cuz I'm I'm guessing so uh
00:24:14
Finding Heidi that was 36 years ago. So
00:24:17
most cops or if not all cops that were
00:24:20
involved with it um are probably moved
00:24:22
on now. If anyone is there, they don't
00:24:24
want their in potential incompetence or
00:24:26
or whatever to be brought into question.
00:24:28
any new cops, they're probably like,
00:24:30
"Well, someone's been arrested and
00:24:31
charged and prosecuted and you know, why
00:24:35
why are you creating extra headaches for
00:24:36
me?" Yeah. And I mean, this is this is
00:24:38
the thing, right? I mean, it's you could
00:24:41
imagine if you're a cop and it's like,
00:24:42
well, yeah. I mean, we've already got
00:24:44
the guy that did this, you know, why
00:24:45
would why would we want to look at
00:24:47
anything else? Um, you know, and I found
00:24:50
it's sort of mixed. You know, sometimes
00:24:52
I think, you know, probably I'm a bit of
00:24:53
a thorn in the side of police. It's
00:24:55
like, you know, I'm a pain in the ass.
00:24:57
But I would add that I generally don't
00:25:00
bother them too much unless I feel like
00:25:02
I've got something that's genuinely
00:25:03
proative to the case. It's important,
00:25:06
then I'll get hold of them. And I've
00:25:07
actually found that they've been really
00:25:09
good. Uh and I've worked with them the
00:25:12
last 18 months particularly on on
00:25:14
Heidi's case and uh stuff that will come
00:25:16
out eventually. But you know, I found
00:25:18
them quite receptive. We've we've done
00:25:20
some good work um together. But yeah, I
00:25:22
imagine I'm probably a pain in the ass,
00:25:24
you know, sometimes, right? But you know
00:25:26
I think in a in a modern society I guess
00:25:29
a democratic society like journalism is
00:25:31
there to sort of hold these sort of
00:25:33
people accountable to a degree. Um
00:25:36
policing has changed so much since the
00:25:38
'9s you know so police now are different
00:25:41
than they were back then but yeah I I
00:25:43
think genu generally they've been pretty
00:25:46
good. Yeah. I don't know what they say
00:25:47
when I can't hear but
00:25:50
but yeah. And then um so season four, I
00:25:53
feel like this was like your massive
00:25:55
massive sort of if there was like an
00:25:57
exponential point. Feel like this is
00:25:59
probably the one. I could be wrong
00:26:00
though. Uh the 1996 mystery death of an
00:26:03
Australian teenager, uh Alana Ceil.
00:26:05
Yeah. Yeah. So this one um Yeah, this
00:26:08
one's sort of dear to my heart a bit
00:26:09
because it's an Australian case to start
00:26:11
with. So it's the first time I'd
00:26:12
ventured overseas and I sort of remember
00:26:16
thinking, you know, that imposter
00:26:17
syndrome where it's like, you know, what
00:26:19
the [ __ ] am I doing? like what right do
00:26:21
I have to go over here and do this and
00:26:22
is this going to work? Um but you know I
00:26:25
went this case came someone sent it to
00:26:27
me and they had really gone to the
00:26:28
effort. They didn't just say oh you
00:26:30
should look at this case they had sent
00:26:32
through all the evidence everything that
00:26:34
had happened in this case and it was all
00:26:36
just succinctly laid out for me to to
00:26:37
read. And something about it I remember
00:26:40
walking out of my office and I said to
00:26:41
my wife I was like [ __ ] like you need to
00:26:43
listen to this. And I was like
00:26:44
something's not right here. Like I just
00:26:46
knew immediately that I was going to do
00:26:48
this case. Um and the story is so Alana
00:26:51
was 16, just turned and she was found
00:26:54
dumped at a vacant property in Melton,
00:26:56
which is just out of Melbourne in
00:26:57
Australia. And she had um it was a
00:26:59
heroin overdose. Um she had injection
00:27:02
points in in both of her arms. Her
00:27:04
underwear was inside out and back to
00:27:07
front. Um there was no drug
00:27:09
paraphernalia around her body and
00:27:11
various other things that pointed
00:27:13
towards the fact that clearly she had
00:27:15
died somewhere else and been put there.
00:27:17
Uh about 8 years after she was found,
00:27:21
they discovered that there were two DNA
00:27:22
profiles semen DNA profiles of two men
00:27:25
on Alana. And one was a 50-year-old um
00:27:28
heroin dealer, another a young um a
00:27:32
young male. He was 19 at the time. Uh
00:27:35
and these men were spoken to once and
00:27:38
and nothing ever came of it. And so I
00:27:41
went over there and just started from
00:27:43
the beginning and spoke to absolutely
00:27:45
everyone.
00:27:46
And um eventually it resulted in that
00:27:50
case being reopened by Victorian police
00:27:53
as a result of the podcast. And they're
00:27:55
working on it right now with a a new
00:27:56
team of detectives uh who I've been
00:27:59
working with for the last, you know, 6
00:28:01
to 12 months on on that and and new
00:28:03
evidence which I didn't release in the
00:28:05
podcast. Same as sort of with Heidi's
00:28:07
case, you get to a point. Um you know,
00:28:10
so amazing stuff and I found them really
00:28:12
good in Australia to deal with. Uh but
00:28:15
yeah, it's a really sad case, but you
00:28:16
know, I can say I'm really good friends
00:28:18
with Alana's brother, same age as me and
00:28:20
and the family and um yeah, hopefully,
00:28:23
you know, get some justice or the truth,
00:28:26
you know, pretty soon on that case.
00:28:28
Yeah, cuz I saw on Instagram um it
00:28:29
looked like you were at a like an Aussie
00:28:31
rules game with her dad. Yeah. Yeah, we
00:28:33
went to uh Yeah, we went to a game,
00:28:35
Carlton. Um who Carlton versus the
00:28:38
Baggers. Oh, no. The Baggers. Carlton.
00:28:41
The Bombers. The Bombers. And anyway,
00:28:42
Alana loved um Aussie Rules and uh yeah,
00:28:46
I went along with with Alana's dad to a
00:28:48
game at the MCG and it was sold out and
00:28:51
yeah, it was just an awesome experience
00:28:54
and you know, those are the kind of
00:28:55
things, you know, I do like, you know,
00:28:58
I'm sort of friends with these people.
00:29:00
They're not just it's not just, you
00:29:02
know, it's not just a case, not
00:29:04
transactional. Yeah, exactly. You know,
00:29:06
100%. And um yeah, that was that was a
00:29:08
cool cool memory going along to that
00:29:10
game with Peter and he used to work with
00:29:12
uh in the Aussie rules and still does to
00:29:15
this day as a selector and this kind of
00:29:17
thing. Um but yeah, you know that that
00:29:19
was very cool. Just one of those
00:29:20
experiences that you have and I've got
00:29:22
the Carlton scarf hanging up in my
00:29:24
office now. Fake fan. Yeah. Yeah. I
00:29:26
literally went and bought the scarf and
00:29:27
a beanie and a ball. Oh my god. I had a
00:29:31
Celtics game last year. We've all done
00:29:33
it. Um yeah. So, when did Alana die? How
00:29:37
long ago? 96. So, uh Oh, like 29 years
00:29:40
ago. 29 years ago. Okay. So, that Yeah,
00:29:42
that must be nice for a dad to know
00:29:44
that, you know, someone like you from
00:29:45
New Zealand um is taking an interest in
00:29:48
it. Or I suppose the flip side of that
00:29:51
could be like, oh, I just want to move
00:29:52
on with my life and you know, it's too
00:29:54
painful to bring it back up. See, it was
00:29:56
an interesting case this one because
00:29:58
it's because of Peter, her father, in a
00:30:00
way that he never gave up on it. He has
00:30:03
been, you know, like he's just he's
00:30:06
never stopped. And part of what made it
00:30:08
easy to start this is that he had just
00:30:11
detailed notes. You know, at the time
00:30:13
Alana died, he went around and
00:30:15
interviewed people himself, you know,
00:30:17
and kept handwritten notes and just had
00:30:19
like pages and pages of things for me to
00:30:22
look at. Even to the point he had taken
00:30:24
a tape recorder, an old school micro
00:30:26
cassette recorder, and taken it to
00:30:28
interview, well, when he'd speak spoken
00:30:30
to people and recorded it. And so I had
00:30:32
this little treasure trove which is very
00:30:35
rare. Um but he he he just never gave up
00:30:39
on it. Um you know to the point I think
00:30:41
he drove some people mad because he
00:30:43
would always keep going on. But he was
00:30:45
more than happy for me to come and and
00:30:47
work on it. And I think at the beginning
00:30:49
he didn't even really know what a
00:30:51
podcast was. And you know I think he had
00:30:54
his doubts about how successful it would
00:30:55
be. and we even sort of had
00:30:57
disagreements over things as it went
00:30:59
along because,
00:31:00
you know, there's that element that
00:31:02
you're trying to obviously work with the
00:31:03
family and and do what's right. But for
00:31:06
me as well, the truth trumps everything,
00:31:08
you know, and and you can't put blinkers
00:31:10
on to the truth. And sometimes truths
00:31:12
that you find may be hard to accept if
00:31:15
it's your 15year-old daughter and she's
00:31:17
involved in a world of heroin and
00:31:19
there's some things, you know, that he
00:31:20
may have found out that he he didn't
00:31:22
know. But by the end, um, yeah, I think
00:31:25
obviously now he realizes how good it
00:31:27
all was and the cases reopened and, you
00:31:29
know, he's he's a a good man, Peter,
00:31:32
that's he he's had it tough since Alana
00:31:34
died. He's never really recovered from
00:31:36
it. Yeah. Well, how could you? Yeah. I
00:31:39
mean, it's a tough one, especially if
00:31:40
you if you know that's something Yeah.
00:31:44
Yeah. How was it handled in Australia?
00:31:45
Was it Is it called unexplained or
00:31:48
unsolved? this in the '9s in Melbourne
00:31:50
in particular, uh, you know, as an
00:31:53
example, they had in the paper every
00:31:54
week they would have the road toll and
00:31:56
the heroin death toll, which were pretty
00:31:58
similar. Um, heroin was rife in
00:32:00
Melbourne in the '90s. So, as you can
00:32:02
imagine, they find a girl who was known
00:32:04
to use heroin. She's dead of a heroin
00:32:06
overdose. She's just another overdose.
00:32:08
Another junkie. Yep. Exactly. And that's
00:32:11
just what it was. It was as simple as
00:32:12
that. And it was about someone coming
00:32:14
along and looking at it from more of an
00:32:17
objective angle and saying, "Okay, well,
00:32:19
there's what about these other things
00:32:20
that don't add up here?" But yeah, I
00:32:22
think at the time just another heroin
00:32:23
overdose, you know. Um Yeah. Which which
00:32:26
is it's tragic. Yeah. Yeah. And what did
00:32:29
that series do for you personally in
00:32:30
terms of like Australian listeners,
00:32:32
subscribers, download numbers? Yeah. I
00:32:34
mean, in terms of um in terms I I
00:32:37
suppose for me the probably season 3 was
00:32:39
just going back to what you said before
00:32:41
was the sort of kind of tipping point, I
00:32:43
guess, of the podcast taking off. But
00:32:44
yeah, then Australia, of course,
00:32:46
Melbourne's a big area, you know, a lot
00:32:47
of new listeners there. Um yeah, I mean,
00:32:50
I probably found that each each season
00:32:52
almost sort of doubled to the next one.
00:32:54
So, yeah, it was a big a big um new area
00:32:57
for me of listeners. Obviously,
00:33:00
Australia has always been sort of my
00:33:01
best my my biggest country for
00:33:03
downloads, but yeah, it sort of cemented
00:33:05
that, I guess. Um, but it felt good for
00:33:07
me going over there and being accepted
00:33:09
to do this work and, you know, and
00:33:12
Australian people were awesome. So, that
00:33:13
was sort of the biggest win for me that
00:33:15
I felt like I'd gone over there and and
00:33:17
done this and it had gone successfully.
00:33:19
Oh, so you were already like quite well
00:33:21
established in Australia before this.
00:33:23
Yeah. So, before I even went there, you
00:33:25
know, 50% of my listeners were already
00:33:27
Australian. Um, and I think that's just
00:33:29
true crime podcasts are quite universal,
00:33:31
you know. Uh, yes. So, I already had a
00:33:34
big Australian base and that's why I
00:33:35
sort of felt I wanted to sort of give
00:33:38
back a little bit and I was like, you
00:33:39
know, they supported my podcast, you
00:33:40
know, I should make the effort and go
00:33:42
over there and look at a case in
00:33:43
Australia. And which brings us to the
00:33:46
current season, season five, which is um
00:33:48
the Northland poisoning of uh Dave Dean.
00:33:51
Dave Dean. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. This is
00:33:54
quite recent. day. I remember hearing
00:33:56
about this at the time and seeing a
00:33:57
couple of news items and then nothing
00:33:59
else. Yeah. 2021, right? Uh yeah, end of
00:34:02
2021. Yeah. This is a really interesting
00:34:06
case. It's unlike other cases that
00:34:08
you're going to see because um as far as
00:34:11
the family are concerned and as far as I
00:34:14
know the police are concerned, they have
00:34:16
their man. They know who they believe
00:34:18
they know who did this, but it's just is
00:34:20
there the proof. But what basically
00:34:22
happened was Yeah. gave uh someone left
00:34:25
two bottles of wine in his mailbox.
00:34:27
We're talking very rural communities,
00:34:29
you know, long driveway farms and things
00:34:30
and they do a sort of bit of a bit of a
00:34:32
B system, you know, like I'll give you a
00:34:34
sack of radishes and, you know, you give
00:34:36
me some oranges and someone had put two
00:34:39
bottles of wine in his mailbox and he
00:34:41
assumed that this was payment for some,
00:34:43
you know, thing he might have done and
00:34:45
he drank these and it turned out one of
00:34:48
them had been laced with parakquot,
00:34:49
which is a very, very deadly herbicide.
00:34:52
Um 10 mills will kill an adult.
00:34:55
Uh but unfortunately for his murderer um
00:34:59
Dave didn't die immediately. He lived
00:35:01
long enough to say you need to test that
00:35:03
wine because that's I drank this and
00:35:05
that's what happened and and I he
00:35:07
collapsed. So they did and they found
00:35:09
found the chemical. Um he I think he
00:35:13
slipped into a coma after 4 days and um
00:35:16
there had been a civil case brewing at
00:35:19
this time between him and someone else.
00:35:21
I'll leave it. You have to listen to the
00:35:22
podcast to hear who it is. But a civil
00:35:25
case had sort of come to a head uh where
00:35:28
legal action was happening, you know, at
00:35:31
that moment about to happen just at the
00:35:33
time that these wine bottles just sort
00:35:35
of conveniently showed up. Um you know,
00:35:38
and part of why I took this one on is
00:35:40
because the family
00:35:42
basically wanted the media to sort of
00:35:45
tell the truth about the situation that
00:35:47
to them it's not a who done it. They
00:35:49
believe that they know who did this. You
00:35:51
know, they want people to to know the
00:35:53
truth of the situation. And it's a sad
00:35:55
case. Dave was a really nice guy. Um
00:35:58
it's just Yeah, it's just all around all
00:36:00
around a very a very sad case, but a
00:36:02
very strange one. Poisoning is a very
00:36:03
rare uh you know, God. Yeah, especially
00:36:07
in New Zealand. I mean, there's the
00:36:08
mushroom case in Australia. I don't
00:36:10
know. I don't know what's happened with
00:36:12
that one. Well, that's right. Yeah. The
00:36:14
the religious lady that Yeah. when when
00:36:17
went and like cooked dinner for the
00:36:18
whole family and the home got poisoned.
00:36:20
Yeah. I mean like I I don't know what's
00:36:22
going on with that case whether she's
00:36:23
been convicted or not but you know
00:36:25
poisoning cases are rare. Um and it just
00:36:28
seemed like in this one I was like what
00:36:30
what's happening with this? Nothing's
00:36:32
happening. It's just sort of dead as a
00:36:33
doornail at the moment. Um you know so
00:36:35
it's one of those ones that I feel that
00:36:37
a big part of my responsibility is just
00:36:39
exposure. Just making sure that
00:36:42
everything that happened in this case is
00:36:43
known. you know, it's one of those ones
00:36:45
you don't necessarily come into it and
00:36:46
think, I'm going to solve this, you
00:36:48
know, it's just getting it out there so
00:36:50
that people know and then hopefully
00:36:51
someone might come forward. Um, and I
00:36:53
think that's Yeah, the tide's coming in
00:36:55
for some people at the moment. Yeah. How
00:36:58
hard can it be? Like it's a tiny tiny
00:36:59
community, right, in the far north, like
00:37:01
a population of 150 or something like
00:37:03
that. So, is it lazy pleasing? What is
00:37:06
it? You know, um, I don't know. I
00:37:10
certainly a couple things that I've sort
00:37:12
of found when I've been up there. I've
00:37:13
sort of raised my eyebrows and thought,
00:37:15
"You didn't look into this." You know,
00:37:17
um you know, the direct neighbor of
00:37:18
Dave, I knock on their door and it turns
00:37:20
out he had called them and and said,
00:37:22
"Did you leave these bottles of wine in
00:37:24
my mailbox?" And when I asked them, "Oh,
00:37:25
okay." You know, when you told the
00:37:27
police and they're like, "Oh, we never
00:37:28
spoke to the police." And I couldn't
00:37:30
believe that. I was like, "What? The
00:37:31
police never interviewed you?" They
00:37:32
never came and saw you. No. And I found
00:37:35
that surprising. But yeah, I don't know.
00:37:38
I I don't want to um I don't know what
00:37:40
they may have on the case that they
00:37:41
haven't talked about. But I believe
00:37:44
based on what's out there that there's a
00:37:46
circumstantial case there um that could
00:37:49
be brought, but I'm not a police
00:37:51
prosecutor. But you know, yeah, maybe
00:37:53
the police know, but there's a lack of
00:37:55
evidence. But it just seems seem seems
00:37:56
odd. Someone that knows nothing about
00:37:57
policing, but a small community like
00:37:59
that, like it's it's not hard to
00:38:00
interview every single person in town.
00:38:02
Yeah, I think I pretty much have. Yeah,
00:38:04
it didn't take long. I just went down to
00:38:05
the, you know, I remember I was trying
00:38:07
to find this one. It's funny though, you
00:38:08
know, these communities because
00:38:11
people are easy to find and hard to
00:38:13
find, you know, because they're not all
00:38:14
using cell phones and things and it's
00:38:16
very rural. And I was trying to find
00:38:18
this one particular guy and everyone
00:38:20
sort of knew him, but no one sort of
00:38:21
knew how to get hold of him. And and
00:38:23
then I thought, I'll go to the local
00:38:25
pub. So, I went to the local pub and
00:38:27
sure enough, apparently he does come
00:38:29
there. And so, I paid for a drink and
00:38:31
left my card. And I said, "Well, when he
00:38:32
shows up, you give him this drink." And
00:38:34
then sure enough, you know, later that
00:38:35
night, I get a call and I'd found him.
00:38:37
And it sort of you have to use ulterior
00:38:39
meth method sometimes in these places.
00:38:42
But yeah, get get a bit creative. Um you
00:38:44
I listened to season one uh sorry,
00:38:46
episode one just the other day of season
00:38:48
5 and um is it Dave's son that swears
00:38:50
all the way? Conrad,
00:38:53
you know, it's a real real character
00:38:54
like real rural Kiwi character. There's
00:38:57
no shortage of of character to these
00:38:59
people. Um, you know, I think I sort of
00:39:01
put a warning in the thing saying, you
00:39:02
know, like up here people work hard,
00:39:04
they play hard, and they speak rough,
00:39:06
you know, and that's the truth, you
00:39:07
know. I mean, they might swear every
00:39:08
second word, but um, you just sort of
00:39:11
get used to it, I think. And I kind of
00:39:12
love that about New Zealand, the far
00:39:14
north. It's it's like a whole different
00:39:16
country to itself. You sort of cross
00:39:18
that threshold when you get in there and
00:39:20
it's just it's just different. Um, which
00:39:23
kind of is cool as well. Um, but
00:39:26
difficult, but yeah, there they do swear
00:39:28
a bit. Yeah. Are you ever um fearful for
00:39:31
your safety? Yeah, there's certainly
00:39:33
been plenty of times um you know it's
00:39:38
there's people that you know I'm calling
00:39:40
out or you know in this podcast that are
00:39:43
not good people murderers and and so on
00:39:46
and you know that's always a risk you
00:39:48
know and there's plenty of times when
00:39:49
I'm going to an interview I mean say on
00:39:51
Alana's case for example and I was
00:39:54
trying to chase down this heroin dealer
00:39:56
that was a big-time heroin dealer and I
00:39:58
couldn't get hold of him and I found out
00:40:00
that he was playing in this poker night
00:40:02
and so I went along pretending to be a
00:40:04
poker player to try and find this guy
00:40:06
and I just knew what he looked like. I
00:40:08
ended up sitting at this poker game and
00:40:10
he sat down right [ __ ] next to me and
00:40:12
I was like [ __ ] this is the guy. And I
00:40:14
remember that night and I'm playing
00:40:15
poker and then he's doing well and I'm
00:40:18
like well I need to stay in and keep
00:40:19
doing well. And in the end when he left
00:40:22
I had to follow him out to this area of
00:40:24
this bar where it was all dark and there
00:40:26
was no one out there. was completely
00:40:27
close and he was in the corner and I
00:40:29
remember having to go and tap him on the
00:40:31
shoulder and I was like, you know, are
00:40:32
you TheoKumis and turns around? Yeah.
00:40:34
And then I was like, you know, can I
00:40:36
speak to you blah blah blah and you
00:40:38
don't really know who these people are
00:40:39
and I know that he's connected heroin
00:40:41
dealer and so on. Um I remember after
00:40:44
that confrontation, you know, I didn't
00:40:47
walk straight back to my accommodation.
00:40:49
I sort of, you know, took a roundabout
00:40:51
route. Yeah. You know, like you start to
00:40:53
think about these things. Um Yeah. And I
00:40:56
don't know, but I, you know, honestly,
00:40:57
the thing that comes to my head is I
00:41:00
when I do second guess and think, [ __ ]
00:41:01
should I be doing this? I think, well,
00:41:03
if I don't do it, who's going to?
00:41:05
Someone needs to do it, you know, and if
00:41:07
I walk away, then it's over. And so,
00:41:09
that's normally what gets me to cross
00:41:11
that line. So, um, yeah, things like
00:41:14
that. Is it a calculated risk or or do
00:41:16
you just get caught up in sort of like
00:41:17
microphone fever or something? Yeah, I
00:41:21
mean, um, I don't know. I think it's
00:41:23
more a calculated risk. Uh, nothing. I
00:41:26
mean, nothing's bad. Nothing bad has
00:41:27
happened yet. Not yet, but you know, and
00:41:29
then this is the thing, like eventually
00:41:31
something probably will. I mean, I've
00:41:32
had some some freaky moments before, uh,
00:41:35
where I've walked out. I mean, there's
00:41:37
been those moments where I've just like,
00:41:39
[ __ ] you know, this is crazy. Um,
00:41:42
but yeah, nothing bad has happened yet.
00:41:45
Nothing bad, actually. But have you had
00:41:46
people like, you know, messaging you
00:41:48
maybe anonymously saying, "I'd watch my
00:41:50
backup." Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:51
Yeah. People totally. Oh, really? Yeah.
00:41:53
Yeah. Oh, that. Yeah, I mean people
00:41:55
saying they want to kill me and stuff
00:41:57
for sure, but I mean in person I haven't
00:41:59
sort of been like ambushed or anything
00:42:02
as yet. Um but yeah, I mean people like
00:42:04
a main suspect and one of them, you
00:42:06
know, calling me and messaging me
00:42:09
basically. Yeah. Threatening me and my
00:42:11
family and so on. Um Well, that's not
00:42:13
great. No, it's not it's not great, you
00:42:15
know, and that's that's that's sort of
00:42:18
that's that's kind of part of the
00:42:19
reality. And I remember thinking, you
00:42:21
know, like you can't expect to sort of
00:42:23
keep kicking the bees nest and not
00:42:24
expect something to come out at some
00:42:26
point. Um, yeah, it's just it's just
00:42:28
sort of part of it. But I think you
00:42:30
could ask any investigative journalist
00:42:31
and they're going to tell you that
00:42:32
that's just part of the job really. Um,
00:42:35
if you if you don't want that, don't do
00:42:37
the job. Yeah. I've noticed um Yeah,
00:42:40
you've used the like the phrase
00:42:42
journalist or invest like a few times
00:42:44
and you're you're not actually a
00:42:45
journalist.
00:42:46
the actual journalists in New Zealand,
00:42:48
they I think they sit in stuff and go
00:42:50
through people's like Art Green's
00:42:51
Instagram and turn a story into that. So
00:42:54
you are actually probably more of a
00:42:56
journalist than a lot of the
00:42:57
journalists. Yeah, I mean that's an
00:42:58
interesting it's like I said like I'm an
00:43:00
accidental journalist and I say in the
00:43:02
podcast like I'm not actually a
00:43:03
journalist, you know, but when I call
00:43:05
someone up it's easier to say I'm a
00:43:08
journalist to explain what I do than to
00:43:10
go in some roundabout way. I mean it's
00:43:12
weird. I I actually um I think of myself
00:43:14
more as like an investigator or a
00:43:16
storyteller, you know, not a journalist
00:43:19
so much. Um but I guess I am. People
00:43:22
always say like, "Look, Ryan, you are at
00:43:23
the end of the day. Don't feel bad
00:43:24
saying it." You know, I'm not really. Um
00:43:28
you're even worse. You're a lawyer.
00:43:29
Yeah.
00:43:30
[Music]
00:43:31
Yeah. Does does has the law degree sort
00:43:34
of come in handy? I think you know the
00:43:37
thing with law is it's one of these
00:43:38
things where it's like probably like
00:43:40
being a GP you know like just because
00:43:42
you're a lawyer doesn't mean you know
00:43:43
all the law but what it means is you
00:43:45
understand the framework and you
00:43:46
understand how to find information and
00:43:49
that's it's that way you can like
00:43:51
analytically look at a situation and
00:43:53
know your gut feeling I can look at
00:43:55
anything and know gut feeling is this
00:43:57
legally am I okay doing this or am I too
00:44:00
far and I think that's where it's
00:44:02
helpful um you know every time I'm
00:44:05
releasing episodes or whatever and
00:44:07
you're naming people or you know
00:44:09
defamation things like this are
00:44:11
important you know and that's I think
00:44:13
where it comes in is knowing okay how
00:44:15
would this be interpreted by the courts
00:44:17
you know what's the sort of precedent in
00:44:19
this situation and that's a lot of what
00:44:21
it comes to you know so certainly yeah
00:44:23
just that background general knowledge
00:44:25
do do you get the content run through
00:44:27
like a legal team before you publish it
00:44:29
or oh just you right yeah I do have so I
00:44:33
might have like um some other sort of
00:44:36
good journalist friends or lawyer
00:44:38
friends that maybe are more active just
00:44:40
for a second opinion like do you think
00:44:41
this will be okay? Uh but generally no
00:44:44
generally I just go myself with what I
00:44:46
feel. Um you know it's you just have to
00:44:50
be careful and and you know and I'm not
00:44:52
out there to slander anyone with with
00:44:54
[ __ ] You know it has to be serious
00:44:56
before I'm going to say it. Yeah. Oh
00:44:58
that's interesting. Yeah. I thought you
00:44:59
might have like a like a a a lawyer that
00:45:02
specializes in defamation or something
00:45:03
that you run everything through. No. Oh
00:45:05
[ __ ] No, you truly are like a one-man
00:45:07
band. Yeah, pretty much. So, you're
00:45:08
you're doing all the research, all the
00:45:10
ground work, everything. Yeah, more or
00:45:11
less. I mean, you know, I think that's
00:45:14
that's where sort of the podcast
00:45:16
started. It was just me, very sort of
00:45:18
small. Um, you know, and now as it's
00:45:20
grown, I've sort of got to the point,
00:45:22
you know, maybe it's time to start
00:45:23
bringing other people on to help. Um,
00:45:26
but basically, yeah, it's a one-man
00:45:28
band. Um, I kind of like that though. It
00:45:30
means that the workflow from, you know,
00:45:35
interviewing someone to actually making
00:45:36
a podcast is very linear. It's just me,
00:45:39
you know, having to do everything. I
00:45:40
don't have to wait for anyone else. But,
00:45:42
yeah, has its pros and its cons. But
00:45:45
certainly sometimes in hindsight, I
00:45:46
think I probably should have got someone
00:45:47
to to check that or um, it's been all
00:45:51
right so far. Five, it's gone. Okay. Um
00:45:56
yeah, just going back to what we were
00:45:57
talking to uh talking about before about
00:46:00
the um you know the the the personal
00:46:01
risk and stuff like that. Um so you're
00:46:04
you're a dad, you're married, you got a
00:46:06
couple of young kids. Um yeah, what does
00:46:08
your what does your wife think about it?
00:46:10
Yeah. Do you shield her from a lot of
00:46:11
this stuff or do you tell her everything
00:46:13
that's going on? Yeah. It's one of those
00:46:15
things e where she you know like you're
00:46:17
I'm always thinking about something in
00:46:19
the back of my head you know if I'm
00:46:20
making the dishes or or doing anything
00:46:22
and um she might think I'm grumpy or
00:46:24
something at a certain time and it's
00:46:25
like cuz there's probably something I'm
00:46:27
just not even telling her about cuz I'd
00:46:28
rather you just don't even worry about
00:46:30
that. Um but you know like there's been
00:46:32
I remember at a time when things were
00:46:33
getting particularly hairy season 3 I
00:46:36
was releasing
00:46:37
big episodes you know we literally um
00:46:40
packed all of our stuff and left home
00:46:42
for like 2 weeks and stayed at an Airbnb
00:46:44
somewhere where no one knew where we
00:46:45
were just to be safe you know and I
00:46:49
remember buying Ashley Wait as a a
00:46:51
precautionary measure or because there'd
00:46:52
been some threat there had been threat
00:46:55
but then you know like it's kind of a
00:46:57
both precautionary you know you don't
00:46:59
know what's going to But there had been
00:47:01
threat at that point by, you know, a
00:47:03
very dangerous man. Um, people that know
00:47:05
the podcast will probably know who I'm
00:47:07
talking about. But, you know, just just
00:47:09
to be cautious cuz you don't know you
00:47:11
don't know who might know where you live
00:47:13
or something and has passed that on. New
00:47:14
Zealand is a very small country. Um, you
00:47:17
know, on another occasion, I remember I
00:47:20
was going away somewhere and I bought I
00:47:22
bought my wife a gun, like an air
00:47:24
pistol, like a um, you know, like a
00:47:26
decent powered sort of slug gun and that
00:47:28
was just to keep at the door. I was
00:47:29
like, you know, if the wrong person
00:47:30
comes, you know, like just use this sort
00:47:33
of thing. You just, you know, so things
00:47:36
have have got to that point before. Um,
00:47:39
but she's pretty good. You know what?
00:47:40
Like she's she must be Yeah, to be
00:47:43
perfectly honest, like she's more she
00:47:46
worries less about it than I do, you
00:47:49
know? And yeah, she she really does, you
00:47:52
know. I'll be like, "Oh, thinking about
00:47:54
she's a'll be right. It's all good."
00:47:56
Yeah. Oh my god. cuz I've had um I had
00:47:59
um a Head Hunters gang member on my
00:48:02
podcast last year and um I was in my
00:48:05
home studio at that point and my
00:48:06
girlfriend was like, "I don't know if I
00:48:07
feel good about having like a gang
00:48:09
member in the house." That night we were
00:48:10
sitting watching something on Netflix
00:48:12
and there was a motorbike that went past
00:48:13
and backfired. She was like peering
00:48:15
through the curtain. That's uh long
00:48:17
story short, that's how Pod Lab came
00:48:19
about. I I was no longer allowed to work
00:48:20
at home. Right. Silver lining then.
00:48:23
Yeah. Pros and cons. Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:48:25
Another time I had um I had this guy Dr.
00:48:26
Paul Wood on. He's um like a convicted
00:48:28
murderer. Yeah. Murdered his drug dealer
00:48:30
like in his late teens. Spent his entire
00:48:32
20s in jail. Um but turned his life
00:48:34
around in jail and he's now like a
00:48:36
motivational speaker and a published
00:48:37
author. Um and I said to Ash, "I've got
00:48:40
a a murderer coming around today for a
00:48:41
podcast." She's like, "Is there going to
00:48:43
be anyone else in the house?"
00:48:46
Yeah. Oh, your partner seems seems um
00:48:48
Yeah. Yeah. No, she's she's she's very
00:48:51
um Yeah, she's very good with that side
00:48:53
of things. Yeah. So, when you moved out
00:48:55
of your house into an Airbnb, um, was it
00:48:58
someone saying like, "I'd watch my back
00:48:59
if I was you, or was it something more
00:49:02
intimidating than that?" Well, it's all
00:49:03
of that kind of stuff. Um, but there was
00:49:05
it was a series of I released a bunch of
00:49:09
episodes at once that were just very
00:49:11
important and named people and so on.
00:49:13
And yeah, and there'd been sort of like
00:49:15
slightly escalating threats kind of and
00:49:18
people saying, you know, certain people
00:49:20
you shouldn't release this, you
00:49:21
shouldn't do that, you should watch your
00:49:22
[ __ ] back kind of thing. you know,
00:49:24
that kind of stuff. Um, from and people
00:49:26
that were in that world that were
00:49:28
telling me like you you need to be
00:49:30
[ __ ] careful, you know, like this
00:49:32
person will put you in the trunk of the
00:49:34
car, you know, and you won't come back.
00:49:35
So, you know, I just there was a just
00:49:37
being precautious, I think, was
00:49:39
important at that point. Wouldn't worry
00:49:41
if it was just me, but when you've got
00:49:42
your family as well with you, that
00:49:44
changes everything. What about um a
00:49:47
different sort of intimidation, legal
00:49:48
intimidation, like cease and desists or
00:49:51
no threatening legal letters? Oh, the
00:49:53
amount of people that say they they'll
00:49:55
verbally say something, but I know that
00:49:57
I'm like, "Sweet. I'll see you in court
00:49:58
then because I know I'm I'm fine." And
00:50:00
I've never ever had anyone actually take
00:50:02
any legal proceedings and I don't think
00:50:04
anyone's really had any grounds to um
00:50:06
but yeah, no, I haven't had that. Lots
00:50:08
of people say things, but um but yeah,
00:50:10
I've never had anyone actually do that.
00:50:13
Yeah. What are the um this might be hard
00:50:15
for you to answer, but the biggest
00:50:16
lessons between say season one and now?
00:50:19
M so it's been like quite a journey
00:50:21
you've been on the last like what three
00:50:22
and a half years. Yeah. Um the biggest
00:50:25
lessons Yeah. I mean I suppose that one
00:50:27
I sort of alluded to earlier which is
00:50:29
that you know understanding that you're
00:50:32
not just going in there to try and solve
00:50:34
a case. Like don't be so naive. You know
00:50:36
if it was that simple in many cases the
00:50:38
police would have probably already done
00:50:40
it but there's probably elements you're
00:50:41
not aware of. So it's it's sort of
00:50:44
knowing at the beginning what you're
00:50:45
going in what this is going to be and
00:50:47
trying to yeah understand my role. Uh
00:50:51
yeah, in terms of um I've learned a lot
00:50:54
going through just about interview
00:50:56
technique, how you deal with people, um
00:50:58
you know, let people speak, don't speak
00:51:00
too much, just just things like this um
00:51:03
that you don't sort of specifically
00:51:05
think about, but you just sort of
00:51:06
subliminally learn, I think, as you go
00:51:08
on. Like, you know, [ __ ] you've spent
00:51:10
your whole career interviewing people.
00:51:11
You know, if you went back to Dom Harvey
00:51:13
on day one to now, I mean, you learn a
00:51:15
lot. I think it's the sort of that stuff
00:51:17
that I've learned along the way. And
00:51:19
then obviously trying to improve
00:51:20
production quality where I can, but you
00:51:22
know, I used my initial that same
00:51:24
recorder that was that did me for the
00:51:26
first like three years. I only recently
00:51:28
bought a new one. Um, yeah. So yeah,
00:51:32
those are probably just the main things.
00:51:34
Um, yeah, just technique. Just just
00:51:36
technique. Just those little things like
00:51:38
that. Um, yeah. And do you have you got
00:51:41
quite good at learning like what's going
00:51:43
to be a waste of time in terms of
00:51:44
content? Like how much of so say you
00:51:47
record
00:51:48
20 hours, how much of that actually gets
00:51:51
used? Bugger all. Yeah. So it depends,
00:51:56
you know, like um I'm just trying to
00:51:58
think, you know, like say for Dave
00:51:59
Devan's case, I've interviewed dozens
00:52:01
and dozens of people already for that.
00:52:02
You know, each interview might take two
00:52:04
or three hours. Um Oh, is that right?
00:52:07
It's that long. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz a lot of
00:52:09
the time it ends up being more of a
00:52:11
chat. Um, you know, and it's funny like
00:52:15
a lot of these people they how many
00:52:18
times in in a normal person's life sort
00:52:20
of normal just does someone sit down and
00:52:23
just say talk um and I'll listen you
00:52:26
know people they talk and they'll talk
00:52:28
for quite a long time. A lot of time a
00:52:30
lot of times it's irrelevant but yeah
00:52:32
like I I don't know what percent let's
00:52:34
say let's say maybe 15 to 20% of what I
00:52:38
record actually goes in the podcast.
00:52:40
so much is on the cutting room floor and
00:52:43
for different reasons. Maybe it's
00:52:44
completely irrelevant. Uh maybe there's
00:52:46
legal reasons I can't use it. A lot of
00:52:48
the time safety reasons for that
00:52:50
person's safety. Lots of witnesses, it's
00:52:52
too risky to include, you know, their
00:52:56
their um evidence. Yeah.
00:52:58
Um I'm guessing you like you're not
00:53:00
stopping after season five. So what are
00:53:02
the um and you must get a lot of people
00:53:04
like messaging you saying, "Why don't
00:53:05
you look into this? Why don't you look
00:53:06
into that?" um like what's the what's
00:53:09
the the filter you have to go through or
00:53:10
filters or the process or boxes you have
00:53:12
to tick? Yeah. So um yeah I mean that
00:53:15
happens a lot now and I mean at the
00:53:16
beginning you know no one was really
00:53:18
doing that and now you know I sort of
00:53:19
get flooded with cases and it becomes
00:53:22
hard because you know for a lot of these
00:53:24
people it's families that contact me now
00:53:27
um or people connected to families and
00:53:30
these people are not contacting you
00:53:31
because everything's going well. they're
00:53:33
contacting you because they've got
00:53:35
nowhere else to go. You know, basically
00:53:37
the with the police or whatever, they
00:53:39
can't get anywhere. And you know, it's
00:53:42
it's difficult to say to someone, I'm
00:53:44
not going to look into your case because
00:53:46
of some superficial reason, you know,
00:53:49
whatever it might be. Um yeah, and
00:53:51
that's hard. And even even just replying
00:53:53
to an initial email, if they contact you
00:53:55
to reply, that might give hope and you
00:53:57
have to be very careful not to give, you
00:53:59
know, false hope that you're going to
00:54:01
look at a case. Um, but I don't really
00:54:02
have a specific filter. It's really just
00:54:05
as they come through, I take a quick
00:54:07
look and think, okay, like what what am
00:54:09
I seeing here? Like, do I see potential
00:54:11
that to start with that there is foul
00:54:13
play here? Like we're a lot of cases are
00:54:15
are missing people. Um, which, you know,
00:54:18
we don't necessarily know that they're
00:54:19
all foul play. Um, everyone tends to
00:54:22
think that their own case is foul play,
00:54:24
but you know, and you do have to think,
00:54:27
unfortunately, I do have to think a
00:54:29
little bit from sort of a podcast point
00:54:30
of view. Okay, you know what content is
00:54:32
this going to make? You know, um how
00:54:35
much of this is going to be can I even
00:54:37
air? Um but I don't have a specific
00:54:40
filter. It's sort of like my gut feeling
00:54:42
like what do I feel like with Alana's
00:54:43
case, you know, Dave Dean's case was the
00:54:45
same. I just sort of thought two cases
00:54:47
not well known, Alana's case not known
00:54:49
at all. I just felt that they need this.
00:54:52
Um that's my filter. What does my gut
00:54:54
tell me?
00:54:56
Yeah. So, season 5 has just sort of
00:54:58
recently started. Um, have like do you
00:55:01
know how the the season concludes? Like
00:55:03
have you got all the episodes done or
00:55:05
and are you working on season six now or
00:55:06
like what's the process? Yeah, so
00:55:08
normally when I'll start it, so I go out
00:55:10
for a couple months normally and start
00:55:12
doing the interviews. Um, and I might
00:55:14
get say half the way through that, start
00:55:17
making the podcast and then release
00:55:19
episodes. But then it'll be I'll still
00:55:21
be sort of investigating in the
00:55:22
background. But I will have a an idea of
00:55:25
of where things are going to go in terms
00:55:27
of um I normally sort of follow a
00:55:29
roughly chronological order of how I've
00:55:31
gone through the case. Um but I'll
00:55:33
normally have a rough idea, but then
00:55:35
there's always new leads that come along
00:55:36
and I'll sort of slot them in however it
00:55:39
might work. And obviously the hope is
00:55:40
that there's going to be that bombshell
00:55:42
that's going to come through and that
00:55:43
could change everything. So it's quite
00:55:45
organic the way I work it. Um yes. to
00:55:48
season six. I actually only just sort of
00:55:50
advertised now to start looking for that
00:55:53
next case. Um, you know, I need I need a
00:55:56
couple months leeway to sort of get
00:55:57
started because, you know, like I have a
00:56:00
lot of subscribers and listeners and you
00:56:02
don't want to leave too much of a blank
00:56:04
space with no episodes.
00:56:08
Um, I was in Palmer North when this
00:56:10
happened. This was a a famous unsolved
00:56:12
murder and fielding Scott Guy. Yes. Have
00:56:15
anyone messaged you about that? Is that
00:56:17
on the radar? I've spoken to Kylie
00:56:18
before about that case and looking into
00:56:20
it. Um, yeah, I I don't want to say too
00:56:22
much about it, but I have spoken to her
00:56:25
about it. Very interesting case, but I
00:56:28
think just well, at the time I spoke to
00:56:30
her, I think I was just starting work on
00:56:32
Alana's and because these cases take so
00:56:35
long, sort of just never went back to it
00:56:37
and I just thought at that time it
00:56:39
didn't seem like the right fit. Not
00:56:40
saying I wouldn't do it at some point,
00:56:42
some something's not right there with
00:56:44
that case. Um, yeah, it would be an
00:56:47
interesting one, wouldn't it? Yeah, I
00:56:48
mean, I think, uh, there's certainly
00:56:51
some questions there.
00:56:53
Uh, yeah, it kind of reminds me of Dave
00:56:56
Dean's case a little bit. I mean,
00:56:57
whether this is, is this a family
00:57:00
related thing or is this something
00:57:02
bigger? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. How
00:57:05
much of what you do is um, and maybe
00:57:07
there's a percentage on each of these.
00:57:09
How much of it is entertainment and how
00:57:10
much of it is making a difference?
00:57:12
I would like to say that I put making a
00:57:16
difference before entertainment. And
00:57:18
this is sometimes to my detriment. You
00:57:20
know, you release an episode and you
00:57:22
know, you'll get the comments like, "Oh,
00:57:24
this guy's boring. He talks too slow."
00:57:25
Or whatever. And I'm sort of like, "This
00:57:28
is the best friend of the guy that died.
00:57:30
Like, we need to hear from him, you
00:57:32
know." Yeah. I know he might not sound
00:57:35
as articulate as what you want. I know.
00:57:37
But, you know, and for me, I'm like,
00:57:38
well, I'm going to include that. Even
00:57:40
though I know when I'm editing this, I
00:57:41
was like, h, some people are going to
00:57:43
complain about this. And I'm trying to
00:57:45
think like think of the bigger picture
00:57:46
here. This is not this is not just about
00:57:49
that. I think sometime someone recently
00:57:50
commented on my Instagram things with
00:57:53
something saying, "Oh, I can't get into
00:57:54
this season or blah blah blah." And I
00:57:55
was just like, "Sweet. Don't listen.
00:57:57
It's easy. No one's forcing you to, you
00:57:59
know, like think about the bigger
00:58:01
picture here about what's going on."
00:58:03
Like, yeah. you know, so I always like
00:58:06
to think and I say this, it's
00:58:07
investigation first, podcast second. I
00:58:09
investigate it and then I think right,
00:58:10
how can I succinctly put this into a
00:58:12
podcast um that that balances
00:58:15
entertainment which is obviously
00:58:17
important but then also uh gets the
00:58:19
story across right for all the parties
00:58:21
involved. So it is a balancing act. Who
00:58:24
who's your audience? Is it like mainly
00:58:26
mainly women? Women love true crime, eh?
00:58:29
Yeah. And you got a nice you got a nice
00:58:31
voice as well like oh you know like yeah
00:58:35
it's weird I've had I've had males
00:58:36
message me before and you know that I my
00:58:39
voice puts them to sleep at night like
00:58:40
so maybe a bit of ASMR I don't know but
00:58:44
you know I think my main demographic is
00:58:46
women aged maybe 30 to to 55 but it's a
00:58:50
real wide range you know um but I guess
00:58:53
my main demographic is women maybe 60%.
00:58:56
Yeah. Yeah. And and what what's your
00:58:58
what do you have they take away from
00:59:00
each of the series? Do you know like the
00:59:02
the most important thing to me is always
00:59:05
that my listeners connect with the story
00:59:08
and the people involved. I want them and
00:59:10
I say this I want them to care about the
00:59:13
person. Like that's important. If they
00:59:15
don't care about the person that this
00:59:17
podcast is about then I've not jump done
00:59:19
my job right. That's got to be done on
00:59:21
episode one. Right. Well, it you can't
00:59:24
do it all in episode one, but you can
00:59:26
make a start. Um, but it normally it it
00:59:28
requires like the whole scope of talking
00:59:31
to friends and learning so much about
00:59:33
them, all the little things. And that's
00:59:35
the biggest thing I hope I take away is
00:59:37
that, you know, if the case isn't
00:59:39
solved, you know, at least there's all
00:59:41
these people out there now, hundreds of
00:59:43
thousands of people that care about this
00:59:44
person. And, you know, the amount of
00:59:46
messages I get and the family will get
00:59:48
positive messages. Like that's that's
00:59:50
the sort of heartwarming stuff and it's
00:59:52
like the silver lining to this kind of
00:59:54
thing. So yeah, I just I want people to
00:59:56
care. That's my goal. Yeah. It's um such
01:00:00
a crowded genre. Yeah. The true crime.
01:00:03
Why does guilt stand out so much?
01:00:06
I wish I could. What makes you What
01:00:07
makes you so much better than anyone
01:00:08
else? No, I think the the probably the
01:00:12
the closest thing you've had to a
01:00:13
competitor is probably like stuff and
01:00:15
some of the stuff they've done. Like the
01:00:17
Black Hands series was phenomenal, but
01:00:18
Yeah. Yeah. That's a a massive massive
01:00:21
well-resourced beast. Yeah. I mean, like
01:00:25
I don't know. Like I listening to your
01:00:27
um um the last guest JJ was talking to,
01:00:30
you know, it's sort of like I kind of
01:00:32
knew when I listened back I finished my
01:00:34
first episode ever I'd ever done and I
01:00:36
remember sitting down with a beer on the
01:00:37
couch. I was like, "Let's listen to it."
01:00:38
And I thought, "Shit, like that actually
01:00:40
sounds quite good." Like I think I might
01:00:42
have something here. But I don't know
01:00:44
what the sort of I don't know what what
01:00:47
it is. is I guess it's lots of things.
01:00:49
Um I started doing this in New Zealand.
01:00:52
There was obviously stuff doing
01:00:53
fantastic podcasts, right? Like but
01:00:56
standalone podcasts, no one in New
01:00:58
Zealand and not many in a Australasia
01:01:00
were doing ongoing season by season
01:01:03
investigative work. And I think when you
01:01:06
do this you build a supportive loyal
01:01:08
sort of fan base. um you know when
01:01:11
you've got standalone podcasts it's
01:01:13
fantastic but you start from scratch
01:01:16
every time whereas you know like we have
01:01:19
listeners that listen every week and and
01:01:21
you sort of grow that. Um I don't know
01:01:23
what what my sort of key is. Um people
01:01:27
say I think that that I give the the
01:01:29
victims a voice. Um
01:01:32
yeah empathy. I don't know. Yeah. I I
01:01:35
you'd have to look through. Oh, it's
01:01:37
it's I mean, it's incredible
01:01:38
storytelling like especially also just
01:01:40
hearing the process that goes in about
01:01:41
these three-hour interviews. So, how I
01:01:45
mean, you would just have to pluck a
01:01:46
figure out of thin air here, but um say
01:01:49
each 1-hour episode um how many hours
01:01:52
behind the scenes would go into that?
01:01:53
Yeah. So I've sort of thought I I think
01:01:57
that for every minute that you hear in
01:01:59
the podcast I think there's about an
01:02:01
hour of time that's gone into either an
01:02:03
interview or editing or anything. So say
01:02:05
for a 50inute episode there's probably
01:02:07
50 hours of work that's gone into that.
01:02:10
Um I think that would be a rough idea.
01:02:12
Sometimes more sometimes less you know
01:02:14
but overall for a season you know I work
01:02:17
for weeks on end when I go and start
01:02:19
working on a season. say like Alana's
01:02:21
case, I go over and I book accommodation
01:02:23
for 3 weeks or whatever and it's
01:02:24
non-stop from the morning morning till
01:02:27
night interviewing, traveling around and
01:02:29
you know that's a lot of hours and then
01:02:30
I come home and put it together in the
01:02:32
sort of in my editing suite. Um but
01:02:34
yeah, that's a lot of time. I I hear
01:02:37
other people talking about how much time
01:02:38
they it takes them to make their podcast
01:02:40
and I think like wow that would be sweet
01:02:43
and they're talking like it's a lot.
01:02:44
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's I mean,
01:02:47
yeah, it's it's a lot of work and um
01:02:49
yeah, as we've established, like you're
01:02:50
a one-man band. Is there a way that you
01:02:53
can um I don't know, like outsource
01:02:56
moving forward or make it like a a
01:02:57
franchise or, you know, get hire some
01:03:00
journalists to help you or Yeah, I mean,
01:03:02
I'd love to. I mean, hey, I'd see a
01:03:04
future where, you know, I could have a
01:03:06
couple other journalists that worked
01:03:07
with me perhaps under the guilt podcast
01:03:09
brand also working on stories that are
01:03:11
being released through the podcast. I
01:03:12
mean, there's anyone out there, good
01:03:14
journalists that are interested, you
01:03:16
know, get hold of me. I mean, this is
01:03:18
something that I'd like to do. I mean,
01:03:19
we've got the listeners now. I've got
01:03:21
the listeners. Um, the one thing they
01:03:23
all ask, they want more content and I'd
01:03:25
love to give them more, but you know, I
01:03:26
am a oneman band and but yeah, there's
01:03:29
things I can do like, you know,
01:03:30
researchers and other people and um
01:03:33
hopefully 2025 is the year that I want
01:03:35
to sort of learn how to delegate
01:03:38
delegate. I'm one of these people that
01:03:39
always sort of wants to do things
01:03:41
myself. Um, well, because the old
01:03:43
saying, if you want something done
01:03:44
right, do it yourself or Yeah, I suppose
01:03:47
so. Um, maybe I'm controlling. I don't I
01:03:50
don't know. I'm not sure. But yeah, I
01:03:52
think I I I like it. I can do all the,
01:03:56
you know, I can perform all the tasks
01:03:57
myself, the editing and everything. And
01:03:59
yeah, but I think this is the year I
01:04:02
think, yeah, I need to I I need to sort
01:04:04
of get some more people involved in
01:04:05
order to make that next step and grow
01:04:07
and give more more content for my
01:04:09
audience. I mean, hey, I'd love to
01:04:10
release two episodes a week. That'd be
01:04:12
fantastic. But it's not possible for me
01:04:14
to do it. Maybe this year we can get
01:04:16
there.
01:04:18
Yeah. Yeah. There must be a way you can
01:04:19
get some journalists that do some of the
01:04:21
some of the dog work for you or the leg
01:04:23
work. Yeah. You know, guest wrangling or
01:04:26
I don't know how that would look, but it
01:04:28
would allow you like I'm thinking on the
01:04:30
biggest YouTuber in the world, Mr.
01:04:31
Beast, does like a one video every
01:04:33
couple of weeks or every month. Um, and
01:04:35
he's the central part of all of them as
01:04:37
you are with the guilt podcast. Um,
01:04:41
yeah. So maybe there's a way to build
01:04:42
your team around you. I don't know.
01:04:44
That's a you problem. Yeah, I I totally
01:04:45
think so. And it's not that I haven't
01:04:47
tried. I've tried going down the path
01:04:48
of, you know, getting other people a
01:04:51
podcaster to come on and work somehow
01:04:54
try and work under my brand. Um, it's
01:04:57
good for them and it's good for me, but
01:04:58
I just haven't quite figured out a way
01:05:00
to make it work yet. I mean, I know it
01:05:02
can be done. I mean, you know, there's
01:05:03
podcasters around the world that are
01:05:05
doing it, companies that can make it
01:05:06
work. It's just figuring out how to make
01:05:08
it work. But, you know, like I I want to
01:05:10
give more content for my subscribers and
01:05:12
listeners, and you know, I think I'll
01:05:15
figure it out.
01:05:17
Have you any other people coming to you
01:05:20
saying, "I'm thinking about doing a true
01:05:21
crime podcast. What sort of advice can
01:05:23
you give me?" I've had a couple. Yeah.
01:05:25
What do you say? Um, yeah. I mean, true
01:05:29
crime in general or just podcasts in
01:05:31
general. Uh the thing I normally always
01:05:34
say is that why are you why do you want
01:05:37
to the first question is why do you want
01:05:38
to start a podcast like what's yeah you
01:05:40
know if it's to make money then you I
01:05:44
mean you're probably not going to
01:05:45
succeed because podcasts take time you
01:05:48
don't make money straight away if
01:05:49
they're asking this is the most common
01:05:51
thing is people will say how do I how do
01:05:53
I monetize a podcast it's like well how
01:05:55
many downloads have are you getting sort
01:05:57
of thing I'm not getting any I haven't
01:05:59
started yet it's like well come back to
01:06:00
me when you're getting 10,000 downloads
01:06:02
a week and then you can talk about
01:06:03
monetization because before that you're
01:06:05
just adding another barrier you know
01:06:07
like get your listeners first you know I
01:06:09
didn't monetize mine for a year when I
01:06:11
started because I didn't I wasn't sort
01:06:14
of didn't have the celebrity element to
01:06:16
get listeners I had to slowly grow them
01:06:18
from one to where I am now. So I think
01:06:21
would you be making the podcast if it
01:06:23
made no money and if the answer is yes
01:06:25
well then that's a good start because
01:06:27
it's going to take time. Um, yeah. And I
01:06:30
think, and I normally just say like, you
01:06:31
know, make a podcast you would want to
01:06:33
listen to. Like, would you want to
01:06:35
listen to it? And if you would, then
01:06:37
there's probably other people that
01:06:38
would, but don't make a podcast that you
01:06:40
think other people want to listen to,
01:06:42
you know, if that makes sense. Um, yeah.
01:06:44
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
01:06:45
Ultimately, it's got to be a labor of
01:06:47
love because you you're going to spend a
01:06:48
lot of time in the trenches, right?
01:06:49
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like, I
01:06:52
my success in the podcast has been
01:06:54
relatively fast, I guess, subjectively,
01:06:56
but still slow as well. I mean, you're
01:06:58
still talking. It took really 18 months
01:07:01
before I really saw any significant
01:07:02
downloads. And for most people, if
01:07:04
they're just doing it, you know, that's
01:07:06
quite a long time. And you see podcasts
01:07:08
come and go all the time where people
01:07:09
think, you know, that they're going to
01:07:11
crack it straight away. And it does, it
01:07:13
does take time. Um, but yeah, labor of
01:07:15
love. You have to love to do it, love
01:07:17
doing it. Um, yeah.
01:07:21
And, um, yeah. Has your perspective on
01:07:24
uh justice or the legal system evolved
01:07:26
since you've been doing this?
01:07:28
Um,
01:07:30
I've always sort of had a bit of a
01:07:31
hardline approach in terms of my, you
01:07:34
know, in terms of justice and, you know,
01:07:36
I've always been sort of an advocate
01:07:38
that violent crime should you, you know,
01:07:40
that the punishments should be harsher
01:07:43
and, you know, people would disagree
01:07:45
with me, but, you know, I'm more down
01:07:47
down the path that, yeah, people should
01:07:50
should get longer sentences for violent
01:07:51
crime and and, you know, now doing this,
01:07:54
I've always sort of thought that, but,
01:07:55
now doing this work, I the I always talk
01:07:58
about it in the podcast, ripple effects,
01:08:00
I call it. You know, someone gets
01:08:01
murdered here. There are ripple effects
01:08:04
way over here affecting people that that
01:08:06
don't even know who this person is. It's
01:08:08
amazing when you meet people and you
01:08:10
find the effects these things have had.
01:08:11
And it just shows you how much damage
01:08:14
can be done by by someone. And I've just
01:08:16
learned it just reinforces my thought
01:08:18
that, you know, particularly violent
01:08:20
crime should, you know, the punishment
01:08:22
should be severe is what I feel like.
01:08:24
Um, I feel like there are too many
01:08:25
mitigation factors and everyone knows
01:08:28
that you shouldn't commit violent crime
01:08:30
and murder. I mean, I don't care what
01:08:31
background you came from. Um, yeah, I
01:08:34
think that's probably seeing it in real
01:08:36
life. And I most cops would probably say
01:08:38
the exact same thing.
01:08:41
Like life with no parole, if it's if
01:08:46
it's if it's guilty like with no
01:08:47
question of no shadow of a doubt. That
01:08:49
and that's that's where it comes down
01:08:50
to, right? Like are we talk and how do
01:08:52
you define that, right? like what what
01:08:55
what's a murder that's one that okay we
01:08:56
know I mean maybe if it's if it's a
01:08:58
guilty plea right but then it's you
01:09:01
normally they'll reward a guilty plea
01:09:02
with a a shorter sentence and I mean
01:09:04
that that can be good so I guess that's
01:09:06
the hard side but yeah I mean for for
01:09:09
seriously violent murders that with no
01:09:12
reason whatsoever like I don't see I
01:09:14
think it should be life without parole I
01:09:16
mean you took someone's life away not
01:09:18
just theirs but also their family's life
01:09:20
as well you know I I don't know People
01:09:23
will disagree with me, but I feel like,
01:09:24
you know, they didn't get a second
01:09:26
chance, you know, like explain to me why
01:09:29
you should. Um Yeah.
01:09:32
Yeah. Different situations, right? But I
01:09:35
I had a guest on the podcast um a couple
01:09:37
of months ago called Mark Longley and
01:09:39
his daughter um was strangled to death
01:09:42
by her boyfriend in the UK in 2011. Wow.
01:09:46
And um we we talked about this and he
01:09:48
said at the time the sentence felt good.
01:09:50
I think it was like 15 16 years without
01:09:52
parole. Yeah. He said, "It felt good. I
01:09:53
didn't have to worry about it for 15, 16
01:09:55
years." And he goes, "Now, here we're
01:09:56
sitting here and it's a couple of years
01:09:58
away, and I know it's something I'm
01:09:59
going to have to like address and think
01:10:00
about in the next couple of years."
01:10:01
Yeah. Um so, at the time of sentencing,
01:10:04
these these um sentences can seem
01:10:06
lengthy, but then, you know, I suppose
01:10:09
for the victim, it goes very [ __ ]
01:10:11
fast and at the end of it, you know,
01:10:13
their loved one is still not here and is
01:10:15
not coming back. And and I think that's
01:10:17
the thing. I mean it it's it's easy to
01:10:21
say something if you haven't had that
01:10:22
loss you know and you say oh I believe
01:10:24
you know people should be rehabilitated
01:10:26
as soon as they can you know and but you
01:10:29
know I know now as a father you know
01:10:30
it's if someone did something to my kids
01:10:33
you know like that changes your whole
01:10:35
perspective on things can I can't
01:10:37
imagine thinking if someone murdered one
01:10:39
of my children that in 10 years time
01:10:40
with good behavior they'll be walking
01:10:42
the streets down at Starbucks and I
01:10:43
might run into them. I mean how how is
01:10:46
that fair? I I don't understand that,
01:10:48
you know, in 10 years or 15 years, it's
01:10:50
nothing. It's it's, you know, it's a
01:10:53
blink of an eye. Um, yeah. Yeah. I
01:10:57
mentioned on Instagram you were coming.
01:10:58
Um, so many so many so many questions.
01:11:02
Uh, if Ryan could investigate any New
01:11:05
Zealand cold case, what would it be and
01:11:06
why? Um, this is such a common question
01:11:10
I get.
01:11:12
You know,
01:11:14
like my answer is probably not one that
01:11:16
people would like, but you know, I c I'm
01:11:18
very the cases that I'm working on I
01:11:21
focus on a lot, but I'm not someone who
01:11:22
sort of canvases a huge area. You know,
01:11:25
I suppose let's say I would love to
01:11:28
actually go back over the David Bane
01:11:30
case from the very beginning and I know
01:11:33
it's been done. Black Hands, you know,
01:11:35
great podcast and wasn't an
01:11:37
investigative one necessarily, but you
01:11:39
know, that would be interesting to go
01:11:41
back over it again now. Um,
01:11:44
you know, I remember when I was at law
01:11:45
school, that was a case we did talk
01:11:47
about at the time. Very interesting
01:11:48
case. That's one of those ones that sort
01:11:50
of resonates with you. And um yeah, I
01:11:53
suppose that would probably be one.
01:11:55
People always ask me about um Ben and
01:11:58
Olivia. M uh and I've actually I ran
01:12:01
into a witness in one of my cases that
01:12:03
had some interesting information
01:12:04
potentially on that case. But um just to
01:12:07
extend on that answer, I sort of got to
01:12:09
a point where I felt like I should use
01:12:13
the
01:12:14
uh massive sort of exposure from the
01:12:17
podcast now to help cases that don't
01:12:18
have exposure. Some of these cases have
01:12:21
already had all the exposure they need
01:12:23
and I feel like I should focus on cases
01:12:26
that are a bit more unknown and maybe
01:12:27
need the help. Um, but yeah, I suppose
01:12:30
if I was going to if I was going to
01:12:31
choose one, probably yeah, the David
01:12:33
Bane case, I guess, because it's just
01:12:34
it's just very interesting. Yeah. Yeah,
01:12:37
that Black Hands was really good. It was
01:12:39
brilliant. That was done. But again, but
01:12:41
again, comparing it to you, it's like
01:12:42
David versus Goliath. It's like a, you
01:12:45
know, Fairfax is a massive, massive
01:12:47
media company with incredible resources,
01:12:49
whereas you're just a dude with um egg
01:12:52
cartons on the the wall in a spare room
01:12:55
turned into a I had to eat a lot of
01:12:56
eggs.
01:12:58
But they work. It works. Yeah. It's
01:13:00
soundproofing, by the way, for anyone
01:13:01
that's curious. I actually think I
01:13:03
actually think that Black Hands was the
01:13:04
first podcast I listened to. Me and my
01:13:06
wife listened to it, you know, on our
01:13:08
phone in bed. Um, like, wow, this is
01:13:10
really cool. A great podcast. Um, but
01:13:13
yeah, to go back and really investigate
01:13:15
that case, if you could get access to
01:13:16
the files and everything, that would be
01:13:17
very interesting. Yeah. How has Ryan's
01:13:20
confidence grown with cold calling and
01:13:22
doornocking from season 1 to now? Yeah,
01:13:25
a lot. A lot. I think it comes sort of
01:13:27
to that imposter syndrome thing because
01:13:30
at the beginning, you know, you're
01:13:32
thinking like who, you know, like what
01:13:35
the [ __ ] am I doing? Why would you give
01:13:36
me the time? Yeah. Yeah. Who who why
01:13:38
would they even talk to me, you know? Um
01:13:41
but then over time eventually you accept
01:13:43
that no, this is my job. And um now it's
01:13:47
no problem whatsoever. I can talk to
01:13:49
anyone, anywhere, knock on any door, do
01:13:51
anything. Like follow a person through a
01:13:53
bar and tap them on the shoulder like
01:13:55
you know. So just night and day the
01:13:58
difference between the beginning to now.
01:14:00
Yeah. Does he ever have local police
01:14:02
contact him after some of the info he
01:14:05
digs up? Um is it more you contacting
01:14:08
them? It tends to be more me contacting
01:14:11
them. Like I know that they listen to
01:14:13
the podcast. Um but it tends to be more
01:14:16
me if I come across something that's
01:14:18
like really probitative I'll be like
01:14:19
okay um I'll get hold of them. M uh so
01:14:23
not not specifically.
01:14:26
Yeah, I suppose I mean yeah they're
01:14:29
under resourced. The last thing they
01:14:30
need is like they're not they're not
01:14:32
going out looking for work are they? you
01:14:33
know, but to go back, you know, for them
01:14:37
as well, it's probably interesting and I
01:14:39
mean, I don't want to speak for the
01:14:40
police, but for them, they might get to
01:14:42
hear some of these witnesses who they've
01:14:43
spoken to. And the police always say the
01:14:46
same thing to me that people are more
01:14:47
likely to be honest and tell me more
01:14:49
than they will to them because the
01:14:51
ramifications of talking to the police,
01:14:54
anyone who knows who's had to give a
01:14:55
statement and so on, like it's it's
01:14:57
scary and and you know that court
01:14:59
proceedings could follow, it's different
01:15:01
to just speaking to me. Um, I mean, I
01:15:03
know in Jim Donny's case, they never I
01:15:06
did interview a cop in that case, but
01:15:09
they never spoke to me, but I heard from
01:15:10
people at the mill that after the as the
01:15:12
podcast was going on, the police, I
01:15:15
don't want to say raided, but they went
01:15:17
out there. They had been listening and
01:15:18
they they went out there to check all
01:15:20
these things. So, they don't necessarily
01:15:22
come directly to me, but they they do
01:15:25
follow it up. Yeah. Well, I suppose the
01:15:26
senior sergeant or district commander or
01:15:28
whoever, they realize that there's um
01:15:30
you know, some heat on them or a
01:15:31
spotlight or some pressure. Yeah. Or or
01:15:33
maybe, you know, they're hearing
01:15:34
something from a different angle or
01:15:36
something that they hadn't heard before
01:15:37
and they're like, "Shit, okay, we need
01:15:38
to look at that." In Jim's case, I think
01:15:41
it was to do with these acid vats. Now,
01:15:43
at the time when Jim's, just to sort of
01:15:45
sidetrack a little bit, um I told you
01:15:47
those things were found in the acid and
01:15:50
it was at random. And there's like a
01:15:51
couple credit cards and a couple weird
01:15:53
plastic things. And they had always
01:15:55
thought, why did someone throw these
01:15:57
random things in there? But I got hold
01:15:59
of the guy that ran that acid vat. And
01:16:01
basically he told me that, well,
01:16:04
obviously his whole jacket went in. The
01:16:06
jacket dissolved and the plastic was
01:16:07
what was left behind. This was never
01:16:09
known by police because they had always
01:16:12
thought that this vat of acid was too
01:16:14
weak to dissolve anything. But we tested
01:16:16
that hydrochloric acid at that
01:16:18
temperature and it dissolved cotton in
01:16:20
in a matter of hours. So after that they
01:16:23
went back to the mill. I believe this is
01:16:24
what happened to check and and find out
01:16:26
the truth of that. I don't know what
01:16:28
came of it, but um yeah.
01:16:30
How does he keep track of everything
01:16:32
he's working on? Is it Excel
01:16:33
spreadsheets, Post-it notes, crazy
01:16:35
string boards like on the movies? I'd
01:16:38
like to think of you've got photos
01:16:40
everywhere with strings and pins. Yeah,
01:16:42
I wish I had that. I I sort of thought I
01:16:44
should set up a mock one of those just
01:16:46
so that if anyone comes around it looks
01:16:48
like that. Um but it it's sort of a
01:16:51
combination of everything, you know,
01:16:52
like I'm a bit of a paper person. I
01:16:54
haven't I haven't evolved to using uh
01:16:58
you know these these online um free form
01:17:01
documents and stuff. I'll generally have
01:17:02
a diary probably like a police officer
01:17:04
would and I keep everything in my diary
01:17:06
at home, whiteboards, um my desk,
01:17:09
post-it notes everywhere, piles of
01:17:11
paper. Uh yeah, and a lot of it up here.
01:17:15
It's one of those things you hear
01:17:16
something and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I know
01:17:17
on the floor where that it's there, you
01:17:19
know, so bit of everything." Right. So
01:17:21
you're sort of working out the story of
01:17:23
each episode in your in your head. Have
01:17:24
you leaned into AI tools at all? Like in
01:17:26
terms of transcribing? I use it for um
01:17:28
for transcribing, but I've been quite
01:17:31
I've been a bit of an advocate like of
01:17:32
not using it for other things to do with
01:17:35
editing. And you know, someone showed me
01:17:37
at one point they're like, "Oh, you can
01:17:39
do this. You put in your script and
01:17:41
it'll automatically take out these words
01:17:42
and maybe replace some with other words
01:17:44
using your voice and and stuff." And I
01:17:46
sort of thought, whoa. I mean, that's
01:17:47
that's the skill of this work, isn't it?
01:17:50
That and so I've sort of I haven't made
01:17:52
that leap to do that. Um I only use it
01:17:55
for the transcribing, obviously. I have
01:17:57
hundreds of hours of interviews and I
01:17:59
can put it in and it tries to transcribe
01:18:01
the New Zealand accent the best it can
01:18:03
as you probably know. Yeah, actually all
01:18:06
those um Yeah, I I try AI tools all the
01:18:09
time and there's some that um you put
01:18:11
the podcast episode in and it'll give
01:18:13
you like 10 social media clips and rate
01:18:16
them on the likelihood of going viral
01:18:17
and they're all [ __ ] always. Yeah, I
01:18:20
haven't gone that I I see those things
01:18:22
advertised but I haven't done it yet.
01:18:24
Yes. So, you're audio only. Is it just
01:18:26
too hard too hard to go down the video
01:18:28
path? Well, it's because, you know, I
01:18:30
mean, that would be the natural
01:18:32
progression, right? Like I would love
01:18:34
and I've sort of already started doing
01:18:35
it. In Dave's season, I I actually did
01:18:38
take my proper camera along and recorded
01:18:39
some things, some key moments. Um, the
01:18:42
next progression would be to take a
01:18:45
camera man with me while I'm doing this
01:18:47
and to record interviews and to make
01:18:48
this into a documentary or a YouTube
01:18:51
series. And I'm not ruling that out. It
01:18:54
may happen sometime soon, but it also
01:18:56
changes the dynamic, right? Like if I'm
01:18:58
coming to interview you,
01:19:01
like my microphone that a lapel mic, you
01:19:03
won't even notice it's there within a
01:19:04
minute. But if I show up with a camera,
01:19:07
you're going to be so conscious of that
01:19:08
it's going to change how you're going to
01:19:09
act and you're probably not going to be
01:19:11
as honest and open because you've got
01:19:12
this big camera in your face that most
01:19:14
people aren't used to. So I think it
01:19:16
would hurt the podcast a bit. Um yeah,
01:19:21
the barrier for entry for most people
01:19:22
becomes so much higher. totally like
01:19:24
they don't want a camera because then
01:19:26
now it's like how do I look and this
01:19:27
kind of thing. So, but it's finding that
01:19:29
balance. Some people might not want to,
01:19:30
some people might. Um, but it's a
01:19:33
natural progression that hopefully that
01:19:35
happens at some point, but I just
01:19:36
haven't quite figured it yet. Yeah, that
01:19:39
poker game you were talking about
01:19:40
before. You're not turning up there with
01:19:42
um some massive lights and three
01:19:44
cameras, are you? This this um heroin
01:19:48
deal is sitting next to me and there's
01:19:49
this huge [ __ ] camera over the
01:19:51
shoulder. Yeah. I mean, I don't know,
01:19:53
right? I mean, but there's moments like
01:19:54
this where I wish there's so many times
01:19:57
when I think like, man, I wish there was
01:19:58
a camera here. This would be amazing.
01:20:00
Um, you know, like I remember a time
01:20:02
like I was somewhere and then I got this
01:20:05
call and it was like, hey man, like you
01:20:07
there's this guy, he wants to speak to
01:20:08
you. Um, you need to come round to this
01:20:11
shed at this property. I didn't even
01:20:13
know where it was in Coramandal. Um, you
01:20:15
know, bring alcohol, you know, he wants
01:20:17
to drink or something. And I was like,
01:20:19
[ __ ] I don't even know who this person
01:20:20
is. He had been imprisoned recently for
01:20:22
a violent crime. And it's like like
01:20:25
[ __ ] okay, I guess I'll get some beers.
01:20:26
And then, you know, I show up there in
01:20:28
this random shed. And then we just I had
01:20:30
to just get drunk with this guy all
01:20:31
night hoping that he was going to
01:20:33
divulge something. Um and I just
01:20:35
remember thinking at the time like,
01:20:36
[ __ ] hell, what am I doing? This is
01:20:38
crazy. Um that would have been good to
01:20:40
have a camera there. Camera there. Yeah,
01:20:42
it's going to be so interesting to see
01:20:43
where you end up with this. Um, I feel
01:20:45
like with uh the podcasting industry in
01:20:48
general, it's hard to have definitive
01:20:51
long-term plans. So, it's hard to know
01:20:54
where where it's where you're going to
01:20:55
be or where guilt's going to be in 3
01:20:57
years or 5 years from now. Um, but I'm
01:20:59
excited about it. You're not giving up,
01:21:01
are you? No. No, certainly not. And I
01:21:03
mean, I sort of as things went along,
01:21:05
you know, I thought, you know, why not?
01:21:07
Like, why not? First, it's like, why not
01:21:09
have the biggest true crime podcast in
01:21:11
New Zealand? Why not have the biggest
01:21:12
podcast in New Zealand or Australia? you
01:21:14
know, and why not in the world, you
01:21:16
know, like I sort of said like in 5
01:21:18
years time, like I'd love to have mine
01:21:19
to be the biggest true crime podcast in
01:21:21
the world, it's like, you know, if you
01:21:23
shoot for the stars and you miss by a
01:21:25
little bit, it's probably still okay.
01:21:27
But yeah, I don't know. You don't really
01:21:28
know. And and it can fluctu, you know, a
01:21:30
tiny thing can change everything. Um,
01:21:33
but everything's just everything is
01:21:35
going well and you know, all my
01:21:37
listeners are so supportive and it's
01:21:39
what makes this thing happen. Um, yeah,
01:21:42
still pinch myself, but uh, yeah, like
01:21:45
you, it's like, what does the future
01:21:46
hold? Don't know, mate. I'm I'm excited.
01:21:49
Uh, yeah. Who knows what it is? Maybe
01:21:51
it's a Spotify exclusive deal. Maybe
01:21:52
it's maybe it's Netflix coming. Yeah.
01:21:55
And wanting to do some sort of series
01:21:57
cuz I suppose I mean, there are other
01:21:59
ways they could do it, I guess. Just
01:22:00
have like have have you sitting there in
01:22:02
a dark room, you know, listening to
01:22:05
audio bits on the phone or, you know,
01:22:07
there's creative editing or Yeah, they
01:22:09
can do. I mean certainly there are, you
01:22:12
know, things in the works that I can't
01:22:13
talk about in terms of, you know,
01:22:15
potential documentary things, you know,
01:22:17
but yeah, a lot of people say a lot of
01:22:18
things to you and then things don't sort
01:22:20
of happen, but you never know what could
01:22:21
happen, you know, in the future. Um, I
01:22:23
always just think whatever I can do to
01:22:26
help promote the cases and the podcasts
01:22:28
and, you know, I'm happy to do it sort
01:22:29
of within reason, you know. Um, but
01:22:32
yeah, I mean, it'd be nice to to get
01:22:34
some solve some cases and and lock some
01:22:36
people up. would be would be would be
01:22:38
good. You know, the right people
01:22:40
obviously get some justice for families.
01:22:42
Not just a result for results sake.
01:22:44
Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to sound like a
01:22:46
'90s cop. Yeah. But, you know, like it's
01:22:48
justice for families. That'd be good.
01:22:49
Just more of that, you know. Um
01:22:53
Yeah. Outstanding. Well, are you proud
01:22:56
of yourself? Yeah. Sometimes you you
01:22:58
have that sometimes you take that moment
01:23:00
and I don't know if you do too. And you
01:23:02
know, sometimes you get so caught up in
01:23:03
what you're doing that you forget.
01:23:05
People have to remind you for you to
01:23:06
know, you know, and and I don't know if
01:23:09
it's like you, you find that people,
01:23:12
it's the when someone says something
01:23:13
bad, [ __ ] I'll think about that for
01:23:15
days, but someone says a good thing,
01:23:17
like you just straight roll straight off
01:23:19
your back and you forget about it. And
01:23:21
it's taking those moments to think about
01:23:23
remember all the good stuff, you know,
01:23:25
and don't worry about the bad. And and
01:23:27
those times sometimes, you know, you're
01:23:28
like, "No, man, you are doing pretty
01:23:29
good." you know, um, you know, you're
01:23:32
making people happy and you're doing
01:23:34
you're doing good work sort of. So,
01:23:35
yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I know exactly
01:23:37
what you're saying because when you've
01:23:38
got a sort of growth mindset or you're
01:23:40
you're a driven person, you're always
01:23:41
looking at the next thing. But if you if
01:23:43
you went back three years to this time
01:23:45
in 2022, when you were getting 500
01:23:48
downloads a week or whatever it was,
01:23:50
like if someone said to you, "This is
01:23:51
where you'll be three years from now,"
01:23:53
you probably would have laughed at. Not
01:23:54
possible. Yeah. You know, and that's
01:23:56
Yeah. I would have you know and that's
01:23:57
the thing is sometimes we forget you
01:24:00
know you forget to look back and
01:24:01
remember where you were and it is
01:24:02
important to do that but I feel like I
01:24:04
generally haven't lost sight of that you
01:24:05
know and I am very appreciative of where
01:24:07
the podcast is and everything and um
01:24:10
yeah it's where to from here but oh well
01:24:13
you're doing outstanding work
01:24:15
five incredible seasons um you you
01:24:18
didn't win a New Zealand podcast award
01:24:20
and the line you used you said um the
01:24:23
award that bit me it sounds like I
01:24:24
listen to it sounds like it was recorded
01:24:25
on a potato.
01:24:28
Oh, that was great. Yeah, that was the
01:24:29
other I think I did I entered a couple
01:24:30
times, got a couple bronzes, but um
01:24:33
yeah, like you know, you know what it's
01:24:34
like. You enter these awards and you
01:24:35
have to it's quite a bit of work
01:24:36
involved, you know? You have to edit
01:24:38
together these things and then you
01:24:39
think, are they even listening to these
01:24:42
um Yeah. I don't know. I didn't enter
01:24:43
last year actually, so I'll let you take
01:24:45
it out. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I I try
01:24:47
not to get too um yeah too too high or
01:24:50
too low about awards because it's
01:24:51
someone else's opinion. But I mean
01:24:53
you've got subscribers, you've got
01:24:55
download numbers, um you've been
01:24:57
recognized by Apple as you know one to
01:24:59
watch or one to listen to. Um so you're
01:25:02
ticking all the boxes and you're doing
01:25:04
great work and uh like the story you
01:25:06
told about, you know, um Alana, the
01:25:08
Australian victim who whose dad you've
01:25:11
formed a connection with. Um I mean
01:25:14
that's more than any award, right? Yeah.
01:25:15
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, that's why
01:25:17
I sort of I didn't really enter this
01:25:18
year and not because not out of spite or
01:25:21
anything, but just cuz it's sort of like
01:25:22
boycott. No, like just because I was
01:25:24
like, you know, it's really not actually
01:25:26
that important to me, you know, like
01:25:27
it's the important stuff is those
01:25:29
things. It's all the connections I get
01:25:31
and my listeners and subscribers and
01:25:33
everything and that's what feeds me and
01:25:34
keeps me going. It's not awards. Um, you
01:25:36
know, it's nice to be recognized, but
01:25:38
yeah, those are the things taking away,
01:25:40
you know, like Alana's brother, like I
01:25:42
said, like he's they coming to visit us
01:25:44
and stay with us uh in June for some
01:25:47
time, you know, like we're good friends
01:25:48
and you know, that's stuff that that's
01:25:50
worth more than any award.
01:25:53
Ryan Wolf, creator of Guilt, New
01:25:55
Zealand's and actually Australia's top
01:25:58
true crime podcast. Yeah, let's call it
01:26:00
that. Yeah. Thanks for coming in. Three
01:26:02
years in the making, we made it happen.
01:26:04
Yes, we certainly did. Thanks, Dom, for
01:26:06
having me and to all your success. It's
01:26:08
amazing. I've seen I've seen you go from
01:26:10
yeah, your your home studio to this
01:26:13
amazing place. So, yeah, well done to
01:26:14
you as well. Independent podcasters for
01:26:16
the win.
