00:00:00
[Music]
00:00:01
Kiwis love a
00:00:03
thirst. Like Finn, we're making
00:00:07
[Music]
00:00:11
waves. Generate switch online today.
00:00:21
Detective Inspector Scott Beard, welcome
00:00:23
to my podcast. Dom, thanks very much for
00:00:25
having me. I'm here with Scott Beard
00:00:26
today. I'm just day off playing those
00:00:28
undercover. undercover.
00:00:30
So, you are you are you 15 minutes late.
00:00:33
Um, which is is fine. U, but you said
00:00:35
you you sent me an email uh um long
00:00:38
before the podcast saying that you were
00:00:40
going to be 15 minutes late and you said
00:00:41
you'll explain everything when you get
00:00:42
here. Yeah. So, by by the way, it was
00:00:46
the most copish email ever. So, the
00:00:49
point. No, look, I and breaking news.
00:00:53
You know, my family know, close friends
00:00:54
know, but my cancer's back and I've been
00:00:58
up at Oakland Hospital all day today
00:01:00
having had CT scan, MRI planning cuz I'
00:01:03
got to have radiation which starts next
00:01:05
month. So, uh, when I had the prostate
00:01:07
cancer back in 2019 and the operation,
00:01:10
you know, I was told at the time was a
00:01:11
lot more advanced, aggressive than
00:01:12
anticipated. So I've been monitored
00:01:15
every 3 months uh since the operation
00:01:19
and last year my PSA and I don't have a
00:01:22
prostate PSA still sits there uh levels
00:01:25
went up and they went over the line
00:01:27
where you have to go and see the
00:01:28
radiation oncologist and it stayed above
00:01:31
the line hasn't gone up but it stayed
00:01:33
above the line and so it's I'm been I've
00:01:37
been told and I'm accepting it's more
00:01:39
precautionary let's get in early fix it
00:01:42
and radiation is what I'm going to have
00:01:44
to have be a month uh starting 12th of
00:01:47
May. So yeah, I know you weren't
00:01:49
expecting that, but that's uh
00:01:51
unfortunately been at Oakland Hospital
00:01:52
and the staff there have been so good
00:01:54
and as I've been there since 8:00 this
00:01:55
morning and um why didn't you why didn't
00:01:59
you cancel the podcast? Well, because I
00:02:02
was sort of in the city and it was just,
00:02:05
you know, we'd planned it and I've got
00:02:06
in my mind, okay, I've got this, got
00:02:08
this. Originally, I was supposed to be
00:02:09
in the hospital yesterday. It was going
00:02:10
to be on the Wednesday, but then late
00:02:12
they changed and said, "Oh, can we do
00:02:13
the Thursday?" I said, "Yeah, okay,
00:02:15
that I have to look after myself, my
00:02:18
health." And that's the thing about the
00:02:19
prostate, you know, like I put the
00:02:21
message out there and I don't, you know,
00:02:22
I don't want the sympathy. I just want
00:02:25
people to know that, you know, I
00:02:26
diagnosed my prostate was diagnosed
00:02:29
rather because I was getting yearly
00:02:32
medical and blood test and my PSA back
00:02:35
in 2019 was shown to going up. six weeks
00:02:38
later was up higher and then I diagnosed
00:02:42
prostate had prostate out and I think
00:02:45
it's just men out there it's it's a
00:02:47
simple blood test and it can save your
00:02:50
life and that's the message I just want
00:02:52
to get out there um you know woman's
00:02:54
testing is so much more invasive than
00:02:56
what a man has to go through as I say
00:02:58
all I had was blood test and that's what
00:03:00
I've been having every three months are
00:03:02
you feeling um you I mean you sound
00:03:04
really optimistic are you feeling
00:03:05
optimistic and positive yeah I always
00:03:07
have been positive and I take and it may
00:03:11
we will be the medical people the
00:03:13
oncologist saying look this is we've got
00:03:15
it think we'll get there early and it's
00:03:18
better to you know do the radiation now
00:03:21
and wait to see and so I've I've had an
00:03:24
MRI month six weeks ago um been seeing
00:03:28
the radiation oncologist I've had to
00:03:29
have hormone treatment to lower
00:03:31
testosterone because the cancer feeds
00:03:33
off testosterone so so then you have
00:03:36
that hormone treat and there's a lot
00:03:37
side effects and uh basically told my
00:03:40
kids it feels like menopause because I
00:03:43
get hot sweats and flushes and um yeah I
00:03:47
can get a bit grumpy and my kids said
00:03:50
yeah what's changed so so look it is
00:03:53
what it is I can't change that but um I
00:03:55
just want people out there sort of to
00:03:56
know that there are a lot of people that
00:03:58
go through it I'm normal human being and
00:04:00
um yeah looking after health is a
00:04:02
priority so if I have to watch my diet
00:04:03
watch what I drink then that's what I
00:04:05
have to do still exercise. Yeah, you
00:04:08
you're very fit. You're you're a fit
00:04:10
bugger. This this all feels um it feels
00:04:13
quite it feels quite cruel. Like how old
00:04:15
are you? You're 64 now. 64. 64. Yeah. So
00:04:18
you're almost retirement age. you've had
00:04:19
this um incredible life of service like
00:04:22
from the age of 19 when you join you
00:04:24
like you've done so much and it's like
00:04:26
feels like it's the stage of your life
00:04:27
where you should be winding down on the
00:04:29
career and just enjoying the fruits of
00:04:31
your you know lifelong service and
00:04:34
um yeah I don't know it it feels unfair
00:04:39
yeah well I don't I don't look that way
00:04:41
I look at I look there's a lot people
00:04:43
worse off than I am and I think
00:04:46
hopefully I've got it early enough the
00:04:48
radiation will
00:04:49
I I have I know a few people have been
00:04:51
through this and it was at the time I
00:04:53
was on the prostate um the operation had
00:04:56
it out you know the indication was that
00:04:58
this could well happen and so while it
00:05:01
hasn't been in the back of my mind now
00:05:03
it happens okay stop that and you deal
00:05:06
with it um I yeah it is what it is I
00:05:09
can't change that I just uh do what I
00:05:12
can you know I don't never wake up not
00:05:14
wanting to go to work I really enjoy the
00:05:16
work I do I enjoy you know the involve
00:05:18
when I have cases and working for you
00:05:22
know families faro just and so they're
00:05:25
on tragic cases but you know like I've
00:05:28
always said oh I treat people the way I
00:05:32
would want to be treated and it doesn't
00:05:34
matter what their backgrounds are you if
00:05:36
they've lost a loved one to murder then
00:05:38
they need this wrap around support
00:05:43
yes what so prostate cancer 2019 um
00:05:47
diagnosed shortly after David Melain's
00:05:50
funeral around. No, no, it was so we had
00:05:54
the Grace Main investigation in December
00:05:56
2018. In early January 2019, myself and
00:06:00
the victim leazison officer flew to the
00:06:03
UK for Grace's funeral, but there's a
00:06:05
whole lot of investigative work to do
00:06:06
over there.
00:06:08
And you know every February I was having
00:06:11
my medical checkup with the doctor and
00:06:16
came back late January early February
00:06:17
had medical.
00:06:20
Since then there's been throat cancer
00:06:22
melanoma. Yeah. It was back in it was
00:06:26
during CO actually and once again my
00:06:28
February check up with the doctor and he
00:06:30
just did a test and what and then he
00:06:32
says anything else I said oh you got
00:06:34
this niggly cough but I think it's just
00:06:35
because I'm wearing a mask all the time
00:06:37
he goes oh he feels oh you got a lump so
00:06:41
he end up having an ultrasound having a
00:06:42
biopsy and oh hang thyroid cancer there
00:06:46
so I had half the thyroid taken out most
00:06:48
people stab me in the back
00:06:50
um but it was funny and at the time at a
00:06:55
time he said oh you've got a dodgy mole
00:06:58
in the stomach I said well why don't you
00:07:00
take it out and he said well I didn't
00:07:02
have your consent I said like I wouldn't
00:07:04
give you consent under anesthetic so I
00:07:07
went back we took it out and then get a
00:07:09
call three or four days later this is
00:07:12
melan get back in here so they take a
00:07:13
big chunk out uh and they came back and
00:07:16
said look we've got it earlier had the
00:07:18
it's almost yeah the tenles grow down
00:07:22
and um hadn't
00:07:23
And so he said, "We've got it." But
00:07:24
every six months wake the skin check.
00:07:28
Yeah.
00:07:29
Thanks for sharing this stuff. Yeah.
00:07:31
What a um Yeah, this has really rattled
00:07:33
me. Yeah. Uh but that is life. And
00:07:36
there's a lot of as I say, there's
00:07:37
people who've gone through worse than
00:07:40
what I'm going through. And you know, I
00:07:42
can still exercise. Um yes, I get a bit
00:07:44
more tired easier. Can't run as far as I
00:07:47
like to, but um I can still exercise.
00:07:50
And I have have a good life. f my kids,
00:07:52
my grandkids, my partner. It's
00:07:56
well, good luck with this this chapter.
00:07:58
Yeah. Yeah. It's just another phase in
00:08:00
my life and uh get through it. Yeah. So,
00:08:03
uh on doing the research for this
00:08:05
podcast today, I realized you and I have
00:08:06
got something in common which I never
00:08:07
knew. We both are from uh Palmer North.
00:08:10
Yes. Um same um education background as
00:08:13
well. So, the the Latin phrase nihil
00:08:17
labor, what does that mean to you?
00:08:19
Nothing gained without hard work. But
00:08:20
it's hard labor actually lesson for
00:08:23
labor. So yes, that's the Palms boys
00:08:25
high school model school motto and uh
00:08:28
yeah it was uh I went through there. I
00:08:29
was a prefect there.
00:08:31
Who was the who was the principal when
00:08:33
you were there? Eric White. Oh yeah.
00:08:34
They called him recctor then. Yeah.
00:08:36
Yeah. Fantastic. And what was your what
00:08:38
was your house? Gordon Albian Vernon.
00:08:41
Vernon. I was
00:08:43
club captain. Were you club captain?
00:08:45
Yeah. I was captain of the first 11
00:08:46
football team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Were
00:08:48
you um did you embrace the marching? Of
00:08:51
course. That's why so that's why I was
00:08:52
so good at police college when I had to
00:08:54
march. I could have done it. This is
00:08:56
this is one thing I love about um uh
00:08:59
this school that that that we shared
00:09:00
Palmer North Boys High. Um I've been
00:09:03
organizing a podcast in the previous
00:09:04
week with um Ruben Love who's like an up
00:09:06
andcoming rugby player. Plays for the
00:09:07
Hurricanes, plays for the All Blacks. Um
00:09:09
he's a lot younger than lot younger than
00:09:11
you and I. um but same school background
00:09:13
and on in our DMs we've been going
00:09:15
backwards and forwards about what house
00:09:16
we're in and the marching. So there's
00:09:19
all these traditions that were at the
00:09:20
school when I was there in the 80s you
00:09:22
were there in the 70s I guess. Yes. And
00:09:25
um they're still going on today. Yeah.
00:09:27
It was interesting because I uh when was
00:09:29
it end of 2023? I was guest speaker at
00:09:32
the boys high school old boys
00:09:35
association annual dinner. something
00:09:36
went down there and then they had a few
00:09:38
guys sort of, you know, at school when I
00:09:40
was there and some of my good mates came
00:09:42
along. It did really good catch up. Um,
00:09:46
yes. So, and it was straight after
00:09:47
school that you um went down to Trentham
00:09:49
to um become a police officer at the age
00:09:50
of 19. Got there's so much to talk about
00:09:52
with you um Scott Beard. Um but in doing
00:09:56
this research, so you've been a cop for
00:09:58
45 years. You you were in the news just
00:10:00
last week for um you you were speaking
00:10:04
outside court and it was for an offender
00:10:05
that was found guilty for some covert
00:10:08
filming. Pleaded guilty. Yeah. Spy
00:10:10
camera, right? Yeah. And and it it just
00:10:13
made me sort of think of the um just
00:10:15
incredible changes you've seen in your
00:10:17
careers. Like this crime would not have
00:10:18
been possible in 1980 when you started.
00:10:21
No. Technology has changed the world and
00:10:24
sometimes for good like investigative
00:10:26
wise CCTV what we can do around phones
00:10:29
you know computers you know really helps
00:10:32
with the investigations but it also is
00:10:35
an enabler for those and you just take
00:10:38
fraud scams u things like that uh you
00:10:41
know the dare I say the child sexual
00:10:43
abuse and
00:10:45
exploitation online horrendous
00:10:48
[Music]
00:10:50
yeah other changes in your career, DNA,
00:10:53
um drugs I guess as well, like just the
00:10:55
complexity of drugs and the drugs that
00:10:56
are available. Yeah, absolutely. Like I
00:11:00
worked up in Kao as a detective for
00:11:02
nearly 3 years way back in the early
00:11:03
'90s and cannabis was huge. Yeah. You
00:11:08
know, at times I thought the economy
00:11:10
revolved around cannabis, but now it's
00:11:12
the myth, you know, across society. It's
00:11:15
myth is the scourge of society. Mhm.
00:11:20
Um I've got a photo here. Oh gosh. What
00:11:24
uh what do you think when you when you
00:11:26
look at this guy? Yeah, that was the uh
00:11:29
young console at the
00:11:31
Trentham Police College cuz it wasn't
00:11:33
Peru then. It we Trenth and uh Yeah. So
00:11:38
19 19. Yeah. I like I was at school in
00:11:42
fact as a prefect my final year at
00:11:44
school in
00:11:45
1978 and prefects were allowed to hand
00:11:48
out detentions and so I was the first
00:11:50
prefect to hand out attention they said
00:11:52
oh you just be a policeman you know and
00:11:54
guess what
00:11:57
yeah is that what you why did you why
00:11:59
did you want to be a cop did you want
00:12:00
anything else well I had thought about
00:12:02
being a lawyer it's just but I think the
00:12:05
academics you know just yeah I there's I
00:12:09
cuz I played football against some
00:12:12
police officers who were, you know, at
00:12:14
senior level at school and they were
00:12:16
really good guys. I like them. And then
00:12:18
my next door neighbor, their son was a
00:12:20
detective sergeant, Snow Pratt in Palmer
00:12:22
North at the time. And um yeah, just it
00:12:26
was just that influence. I thought, "Oh,
00:12:27
yeah. Okay. Yeah, do this." By the way,
00:12:30
I've used the word cop a couple of times
00:12:31
and I've noticed you've said um um
00:12:33
police officer. Is is cop an offensive
00:12:35
term or is it a uh I won't Well, no. not
00:12:39
using it directly. Like way back it was
00:12:41
the traffic cop and we were always just
00:12:43
police and New Zealand police and I've
00:12:45
always I just use the term police cuz I
00:12:47
joined New Zealand police. Traffic?
00:12:48
Yeah. Traffic cops. Ministry of
00:12:49
transport. I vaguely remember them with
00:12:51
the big boots. Black and white cars.
00:12:54
Yeah. Yeah. You would have been you
00:12:55
would have been a a police officer when
00:12:57
the merger happened. Yeah. I was in KO
00:12:59
at the time and you know like we Kao was
00:13:02
small. You didn't have a lot of staff.
00:13:03
you didn't have Dr. CB staff and we
00:13:06
worked closely with MOT and so you know
00:13:09
the merger
00:13:11
was nothing too different for us really
00:13:14
because we worked with them anyway so
00:13:17
no one liked the e yeah it was different
00:13:20
back then a different vibe um yeah that
00:13:23
must have been an interesting change
00:13:24
because suddenly you know you had police
00:13:26
that did policing and then suddenly you
00:13:28
had to you know I don't know hand out
00:13:31
like speeding tickets and things and
00:13:32
take on traffic duty abuse and and but
00:13:34
look if you're looking to save lives and
00:13:37
you know a lot of our work is around
00:13:38
prevention you know and I want to talk
00:13:40
about you know child sexual abuse later
00:13:42
because you know that's one of my key
00:13:45
worlds in terms of what I work in but
00:13:47
it's just looking at the f trying to
00:13:49
save lives and what and so speed alcohol
00:13:52
drugs driving badly you know whether
00:13:55
it's innocent or they kill themselves
00:13:56
they're killing people dying and you
00:13:58
just have to see the figures and uh and
00:14:01
we got to have a role to play that Yeah.
00:14:04
Yeah. I I mentioned on Instagram you
00:14:05
were coming here and I asked if anyone
00:14:06
had any questions and there there was um
00:14:09
actually very few questions. They mainly
00:14:10
just like um statements, people saying,
00:14:12
you know, please thank Scott for his
00:14:14
empathy and his compassion and you words
00:14:17
like that that get bounced around. Are
00:14:19
they are they good words to describe
00:14:20
you? Do you think? Look, I can walk
00:14:22
through an airport and somebody will
00:14:24
stop me or straight someone say, "Oh,
00:14:26
you're that policeman, aren't you?" And
00:14:28
then they'll say, "Thanks for all you
00:14:29
do." Yeah. Which is terrific. But I'm
00:14:32
the public face and have the media
00:14:34
profile. Yet my staff and the staff
00:14:37
right around the country do fantastic
00:14:39
work, you know. And no, we're not always
00:14:41
going to get it right. It's just
00:14:42
reality. But you know, investigative
00:14:44
wise, you look at some of the
00:14:45
investigations around the country and
00:14:47
the results they get and you know, they
00:14:50
put in a lot of work um working with the
00:14:54
families, working, you know, and just
00:14:56
getting to where they get to do a
00:14:58
prosecution. And of course for me I I I
00:15:01
would never go by without saying it's a
00:15:03
team effort has to be the team and yes I
00:15:06
sit at the top uh and I the media but
00:15:09
it's a staff on the ground doing the
00:15:12
hard yards and yeah we direct and
00:15:15
guidance and that but they're out there
00:15:17
doing it and uh it all comes together.
00:15:20
Everybody it's no it's no different from
00:15:21
a sports team the different positions if
00:15:23
everybody does their part as a team
00:15:25
you'll function well.
00:15:28
So, um there's been massive changes in
00:15:30
policing in the the time you've been
00:15:31
involved. Um what about this guy here?
00:15:33
Uh change big biggest changes in this
00:15:35
guy here between then 1980 and now.
00:15:39
Gosh. Well, I still Well, I'm playing
00:15:41
walking football now. So, that's an age
00:15:44
thing.
00:15:45
Uh I I think it's just my knowledge. I
00:15:48
think when you first join the police,
00:15:51
you know, you look and because we deal
00:15:55
with, you know, 90% of our work is
00:15:57
dealing with some bad people, but in
00:15:59
society, they're probably only 10% of
00:16:02
society and it's easy to lose focus. And
00:16:04
I think with experience, with age, you
00:16:07
know, I look and I, if I use child
00:16:09
sexual abuse as an example, uh I in fact
00:16:14
I spoke up in Kaikoi beginning of last
00:16:17
year, a group up there called massive
00:16:19
men against sexual violence and they
00:16:21
just wanted to highlight the sexual
00:16:23
abuse of primarily children but also
00:16:27
women up in society there. and they
00:16:29
asked me to come and speak and I did and
00:16:31
I I said look we get complaints we deal
00:16:33
with them and we have to hold the
00:16:34
offenders to account and that's our job
00:16:37
but I said I've been around long enough
00:16:39
now to say well what's happened to
00:16:41
offender from this age growing up and as
00:16:45
it was the speaker after me was a former
00:16:48
gang member leader who's out of the gang
00:16:50
his late 60s and he got up and started
00:16:54
speaking and he just looked at me and he
00:16:55
said from this age here I was physically
00:16:58
being sexually abused are we not to do
00:17:00
the same thing and so you know what are
00:17:02
we doing in society to look after our
00:17:06
young ones because they're the future
00:17:09
and I I did a research paper health
00:17:12
board and while what I what we're doing
00:17:16
was more for juries around medical
00:17:18
examinations but we looked at 20 years
00:17:21
and one of the things I just because of
00:17:23
my curiosity I just looked at where are
00:17:24
these victims now and what he did from
00:17:27
1999 to
00:17:29
2019. And so many of them were either
00:17:33
alcoholics, drug
00:17:36
addicted, criminals, lived in violent
00:17:40
relationships, had health issues, mental
00:17:42
health issues, and the worst thing I saw
00:17:44
so much suicide. Now they are our
00:17:48
children who are being sexually abused
00:17:52
at a young age.
00:17:54
Now, if we can do something now, we're
00:17:55
going to save society so much money down
00:17:58
the track. You know, the alcoholism,
00:17:59
drug addiction, criminality, suicide,
00:18:01
mental health. Um, and you know, I've
00:18:04
worked in child sexual abuse 1989. I
00:18:07
started working that field as a
00:18:09
detective for three years. Uh, I've been
00:18:11
a detective sergeant in charge of a
00:18:13
child abuse team as it was as a
00:18:15
detective senior sergeant. I uh oversaw
00:18:19
the child abuse team or became a child
00:18:21
protection team. And even now as a DI, I
00:18:24
still and I, you know, I have child
00:18:26
protection team, the child exploitation,
00:18:28
which is all online stuff, child sex
00:18:31
offender management, so the sex offender
00:18:33
register and all the people on the
00:18:35
register who have to be monitored by the
00:18:37
team. So, so right through my career and
00:18:40
yes, I've done other done homicides and
00:18:42
I've worked with organized crime and
00:18:43
financial crime stuff in general work,
00:18:46
but that child sexual abuse has always
00:18:48
run through my career. And um I just as
00:18:51
I say when I go back to all the football
00:18:54
coaching I've done it's because I see
00:18:56
that as being kids in sport has been
00:18:59
really positive a it's mentally good for
00:19:02
them but physically it's good it teaches
00:19:04
them life skills teamwork discipline
00:19:06
punctuality I was a tough coach at times
00:19:09
um and yeah and it's and if they're
00:19:12
teenagers you've got them off the street
00:19:14
and they're sort of involved they got to
00:19:16
focus and I just I look back and I think
00:19:20
gosh can society can we do more with
00:19:22
some of the children who don't get the
00:19:23
opportunity
00:19:26
what can we do but what can I do and
00:19:28
anyone listening to this is is it a is
00:19:30
it a a neighborhood thing and a
00:19:31
community thing oh yeah it it is a
00:19:34
community thing like there's a lot like
00:19:37
one of the things I've always thought of
00:19:38
was you know say in the lower social
00:19:40
economic where it's difficult and
00:19:42
parents can't afford children being
00:19:44
sport and um you know like if you had
00:19:47
some type of social worker volunteer
00:19:48
social worker pick kids up in a van,
00:19:51
take them and then whether it was
00:19:52
basketball, whether it's women touch
00:19:54
rugby, whether it's football, you know,
00:19:57
by just getting them out active and just
00:19:59
it's something positive. But yeah, and
00:20:02
it's easy for me to say, but it's hard
00:20:04
to put into place, but you know, that's
00:20:06
where you have volunteers out there who
00:20:08
or sports, cultural groups, whatever.
00:20:11
And it's fantastic. and I've been a
00:20:12
volunteer and so I take my hats off to
00:20:14
them because you know they give up their
00:20:16
own time and it's for the betterment of
00:20:18
future.
00:20:21
Um it's hard to imagine a more like
00:20:24
draining arm of the police to be in than
00:20:27
um you dealing with the kids stuff.
00:20:29
Yeah. And if I use child homicides, baby
00:20:32
homicides, it's really difficult. And
00:20:35
you know, a lot of our staff we work on
00:20:36
there will have young children. Yeah. So
00:20:39
I've got to be mind as a leader and
00:20:40
boss. So I got more mindful of that and
00:20:44
it's yeah I couple of years ago I was
00:20:47
asked to facilitate management serious
00:20:49
crime course at police college for two
00:20:51
weeks which was for detective senior
00:20:53
sergeants and senior detective sergeants
00:20:56
um and the course theme was child
00:20:59
homicide because I've run so many and I
00:21:02
have a lot of contacts within the child
00:21:04
abuse world. uh headquarters detective
00:21:08
inspector and I ran the course and it
00:21:10
was tough. You could see on those
00:21:12
participants it's tough but you know the
00:21:15
police are so good now compared to say
00:21:18
when I started you know the wellness the
00:21:21
welfare the psychological counseling you
00:21:23
know psychologist available some of
00:21:24
those squads you know my child
00:21:26
protection child exploitation child sex
00:21:28
management they are mandatory have to go
00:21:30
for psychological counseling a couple
00:21:32
times a year.
00:21:34
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The change
00:21:37
changes in that time must have been
00:21:38
seismic. Like um when you started I
00:21:39
suppose you couldn't sort of show any
00:21:41
sort of weakness or vulnerability at
00:21:42
all. Um people tell you to harden harden
00:21:44
the [ __ ] up. Yeah. Basically it was it
00:21:47
was take a concrete film. You're Yeah.
00:21:48
You're a [ __ ] if you But but it was
00:21:50
Yeah. It was just a little bit the way
00:21:52
it was the culture of it at that time.
00:21:55
But you know like I look back at some of
00:21:57
my DIS that I had as bosses and yeah
00:22:01
what they said went. But there was nice
00:22:03
good guys and you learned a lot and look
00:22:05
as a boss you I've got my good points
00:22:07
I've got my bad points and people can
00:22:08
learn from me and I really enjoy now
00:22:11
passing on my school's knowledge
00:22:12
experience to the staff like I've been
00:22:14
in Wellington this week uh you know
00:22:16
presenting the course and uh you know
00:22:19
I've got to that age where you know like
00:22:20
what can I do to help this staff grow
00:22:23
and be better detectives better police
00:22:25
officers. you what are the biggest sort
00:22:28
of leadership lessons you've got over
00:22:30
the years?
00:22:32
I think communication with the staff is
00:22:34
important. like you know there was some
00:22:36
bosses I had who it was just bang bang
00:22:38
bang you do this there's no consultation
00:22:40
no and I think communication is really
00:22:42
key and important for our staff
00:22:45
particularly the younger generation and
00:22:48
consultation and I remember couple of
00:22:50
years ago homicide we're working on and
00:22:54
we're going places and so during the
00:22:56
night my mind raised right should the
00:22:59
business so I had a meeting with the
00:23:00
NCOs's before we had a big team meeting
00:23:02
and I said right this is what I want
00:23:03
blah blah blah blah And one of my
00:23:05
detective sergeants said I thought what
00:23:07
what if we did this and did it that way
00:23:09
and I thought actually that's better
00:23:11
than my fault and you know he's
00:23:14
operational he's on the street you know
00:23:15
I basically s my office stuff like that
00:23:19
and I thought no you're right and so I
00:23:21
was quite prepared to change my view on
00:23:23
what we're going to do because yeah and
00:23:26
that's listen to my staff and I think
00:23:27
that's important for staff and as
00:23:29
leaders you know we've got to listen to
00:23:31
our staff because they're the ones out
00:23:33
on the
00:23:34
You know, it's different on the street
00:23:35
now than what it was when I was on the
00:23:36
street. And I can have my views and I've
00:23:38
got, you know, I've been there, done
00:23:40
that for a lot of things, but it's
00:23:41
different now. And so talking to the
00:23:44
staff,
00:23:45
it's that communication, that
00:23:48
interacting, and you're not there as a
00:23:49
boss, bang, bang, bang, you know, like
00:23:51
you do as I say because I'm your Yeah.
00:23:54
It's, you know, how's things going? You
00:23:55
know, what's happening at home? you
00:23:56
know, you know, like and like for me
00:23:58
with my football, there's a number of
00:24:00
staff who support various English
00:24:02
football teams and so we have a good
00:24:03
banter, you know, and I think that's
00:24:05
that's really good for them. They
00:24:06
haven't come to work. Yeah. I know some
00:24:08
staff, well, I don't really speak the
00:24:10
boss, but you know, the staff that know
00:24:12
me come to life. And have you always
00:24:15
been um like quite a compassionate and
00:24:17
caring guy or is this something that
00:24:18
you've um sort of developed over the
00:24:20
years after dealing with, you know, so
00:24:22
much sort of misery and grief? Well, I
00:24:24
think early on in my CIB career, as I
00:24:28
say, you know, there are some
00:24:30
cases and you work on them and there
00:24:33
were quite big cases, you know, the Rex
00:24:35
Bill homicide in North Motel in
00:24:37
1988 and then in ' 89 had the Swedish
00:24:40
inquiry uh operation Stockholm and just
00:24:44
dealing particularly operation
00:24:45
Stockholm. I was involved with Swedish
00:24:50
families when they came out. It was high
00:24:51
department hogman at that time it hadn't
00:24:54
been found and you know you feel for
00:24:57
them and I think then I started working
00:25:00
in child abuse and you these young
00:25:04
children who are being abused and what
00:25:08
can you do for I remember there was one
00:25:11
young girl and it was a gang member
00:25:13
sexually abused her
00:25:15
and in the end he sort of made partial
00:25:18
admissions when I interviewed him but
00:25:20
back in those has Cor in New Zealand had
00:25:23
cor and needs to fly a plane load of
00:25:25
children over to Disneyland and I
00:25:27
managed to get this young girl he's 9
00:25:29
years old to um on the flight to go to
00:25:32
Disneyland and I think if we can do
00:25:35
something for our children they've been
00:25:37
through grief you know my partner Gory
00:25:40
Masters she's a survivor but she's just
00:25:42
written a book keeping kids safe and
00:25:44
it's just gone out to every school in
00:25:45
New Zealand and you know that's about
00:25:49
looking after the adult survivors of
00:25:51
child sexual abuse because the
00:25:54
triggering things that trigger them in
00:25:56
life and just carry on and on and on and
00:25:58
whether they've been to the police,
00:25:59
whether the person's been charged,
00:26:00
convicted, whatever, you know, they have
00:26:02
to live their whole life knowing what
00:26:05
happened to them. And it's so abusive
00:26:08
and yeah, intrusive. I Yeah. So I I do a
00:26:13
lot um quite happy to support he runs a
00:26:16
charity called Handing the Shame Back.
00:26:18
It's all about supporting adults
00:26:20
childish and I know I've been asked by
00:26:24
them by have a help promote a global
00:26:27
hand sign for children under 16 which is
00:26:29
a
00:26:32
simple because children can't talk in
00:26:35
certain situations. They don't know how
00:26:37
to verbalize or they're very scared or
00:26:40
be believed. And so how do teachers,
00:26:44
parents, family, friends pick up if
00:26:48
they're not saying anything? But if they
00:26:50
use this a hand
00:26:53
signal and it has been used and it has
00:26:56
saved some. So yeah, I'm I'm as because
00:27:01
my career has lot in child sexual abuse.
00:27:04
I'm keen to work in that area. Yeah.
00:27:07
even voluntarily just to help out so
00:27:10
that as a society, as a country, we can
00:27:13
do something better.
00:27:16
You mentioned a couple of um
00:27:17
high-profile cases there from earlier in
00:27:19
your career. Um yes. So, let's go back
00:27:22
and we'll run through some of these. So,
00:27:24
you graduate in 1980 as um a 19year-old
00:27:28
and then um so all you're known at that
00:27:30
point is Palmer North and then you get
00:27:33
sent to Oakland for some reason.
00:27:35
paint a picture of Oakland in 1980. So
00:27:37
you're living you live in like some sort
00:27:39
of police barracks, right? At the police
00:27:40
station. Yes. So some good homework. No,
00:27:44
the uh Yeah. So you get when you join
00:27:46
the police, I was asked, you know,
00:27:48
what's your four um main where would you
00:27:51
want to go? You know, rank four places.
00:27:53
So I put I want to go to big cities. So
00:27:55
Wellington's close to Palm. So I put
00:27:56
Wellington. I thought I like Napia,
00:27:58
Hawksway, Napia, New Plymouth. And I'll
00:28:01
put Palmer last. And they sent me
00:28:02
Dorland. So hello. Uh we used to have to
00:28:06
live in barracks in Vincent Street right
00:28:08
next to the central police station and
00:28:10
that was a 100 me walk to work and but
00:28:14
there's an intercom in your room so they
00:28:15
could get you anytime they wanted and I
00:28:18
I'd been to Oakland once for a football
00:28:20
tournament and you stayed on the shore
00:28:22
and the tournament was at college and so
00:28:25
I had didn't know at all and I remember
00:28:27
my first couple of weeks I was walking
00:28:29
beat in Queen Street and someone comes
00:28:32
up to me and you expected to be a
00:28:33
walking side and Someone came up to me
00:28:35
and said, "Oh, where's the Canterbury
00:28:38
Building Society?" I looked and said,
00:28:40
"Christ Church." Well, it was across the
00:28:43
road and about 50 m down. So, you soon
00:28:46
learned, but that was that's what I
00:28:48
knew. I that's all I knew. I didn't know
00:28:50
Aland at all. And uh you know, back then
00:28:53
you had the boots, the skin, um some of
00:28:56
the bad boots. What are they? It was
00:28:57
like a gang. Yeah. The skin head the
00:28:59
boot boys. Yeah. Back then there was a
00:29:01
Yeah. Was that when um the the King
00:29:03
Cobras were the Ponsby gang or uh they
00:29:06
were? Yes. No, they were starting out.
00:29:08
Yeah, definitely out there. The head
00:29:10
hunters were around. Uh yeah. And what
00:29:14
were your big crimes then?
00:29:16
Oh, well, bank robberies, right? Yeah. I
00:29:19
remember when I first joined the CV,
00:29:20
bank robberies were huge. Yeah. All the
00:29:23
time. And um yeah, but we'll go into a
00:29:27
bank, jump up the counter, fire a shot
00:29:28
through the ceiling and take money and
00:29:31
run. And we did a lot of work around
00:29:33
those. Uh be fair, fraud, like when I
00:29:36
first joined the
00:29:37
CI, I was actually came as a uniform
00:29:40
attachment and the weekend before I
00:29:42
started I broke my uh thumb playing
00:29:46
football and a ball kicked into so they
00:29:48
put me on fraud squad and course it was
00:29:50
check series back then. So you had the
00:29:52
the checks of course. Yeah. It's a long
00:29:54
time ago. A long time ago. Checks have
00:29:56
bounced and stuff like that. And uh
00:29:59
yeah, sort of credit cards are just
00:30:00
starting to come into play. And it was
00:30:02
different from Broadway where you look
00:30:04
at it now and look at the online scams.
00:30:06
Look at the telephone scams, all that
00:30:08
stuff. Yeah. You reflect on that now.
00:30:11
It's a simpler time. I remember going to
00:30:12
the fish and chip store and there'd be
00:30:14
like a wall of dishonored checks hanging
00:30:15
up there and please um and I've heard
00:30:18
you make what what I think is a joke.
00:30:20
Um, so the the police barracks where you
00:30:22
were staying, they had three rules. No
00:30:24
women, no alcohol, no drugs. I've heard
00:30:26
you say in another interview you um
00:30:27
obeyed one of the rules. Well, I think
00:30:30
Yeah, you had drugs. No, sorry. Just
00:30:34
Yeah. Yeah. Jeez. Um, yeah. Can you
00:30:39
remember your first arrest? I Funny you
00:30:42
say because because I was thinking of
00:30:43
coming on here and it was in those days
00:30:46
we could arrest people for being drunk
00:30:48
in a public place.
00:30:50
And it was a female in her 20s and she
00:30:54
was paraly. So we arrested for Ben. She
00:30:58
pleaded not guilty cuz sometimes they
00:30:59
can plead guilty and pay a fine and go
00:31:01
back then not guilty. Went to court and
00:31:04
I had to go to court and the judge said
00:31:07
to me when I was giving evidence, could
00:31:09
you understand
00:31:11
her? And I said yes. He said she wasn't
00:31:15
drunk then and quitted her. And I
00:31:17
thought to myself, I should have said
00:31:19
yes because I've been drunk and I know
00:31:21
how to slur my words so I could
00:31:22
understand. But anyway, it was but that
00:31:25
was back then, you know, we don't do
00:31:26
that now. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when you
00:31:29
started, how long how long did you see
00:31:30
this career lasting? Did you imagine it
00:31:32
would be a entire your entire working
00:31:34
life? Well, I I think back then, you
00:31:37
know, it was one vocation in life sort
00:31:39
of thing, but I didn't know I didn't
00:31:41
know where it was going to take me. Uh,
00:31:43
yeah, I I joined, you know, I was brand
00:31:45
new in Oakland. didn't really know
00:31:46
anyone couple of guys who were in my
00:31:48
wing and yeah you get to know people
00:31:52
started playing sport get to meet more
00:31:54
people uh you know met with wife then
00:31:57
wife and yeah married had children and
00:32:00
you start to grow and then of course
00:32:02
I've been in the job six years and some
00:32:04
of my mates had joined the CIB criminal
00:32:07
investigation branch how is it oh it's
00:32:09
good it's really good you know lot of
00:32:11
study it was bit fresher you know and I
00:32:14
thought Yeah, I'd been like spring block
00:32:17
tour Queens riot. Um I just thought yeah
00:32:21
time you know murder is the number one
00:32:24
crime in New Zealand and you want to be
00:32:25
investigator that's what you want to
00:32:27
investigate. So joined the CRB in 1986.
00:32:31
Just backing up a bit you mentioned yeah
00:32:33
the spring tour 1981. Yeah. Yeah. What
00:32:35
was your involvement in that? So well I
00:32:37
wasn't on the red squad but basically uh
00:32:42
particularly once the white Hamilton
00:32:45
game was abandoned. Yeah. It was really
00:32:48
ramped up. So I remember flying in
00:32:50
Hercules down to New Plymouth for the
00:32:53
next game. Uh then we flew to Wonganui.
00:32:55
In fact we flown to Wonganui. We got
00:32:58
down there. Intelligence was there was
00:33:00
going to be a big protest in Ka Pass in
00:33:02
Oakland. So we had lunch and we flew
00:33:05
back. We didn't even go to police the
00:33:07
game
00:33:09
and then you know you would obviously
00:33:13
every basically Wednesday and Saturday
00:33:14
when there were games there were
00:33:16
protests and so you'd have to police
00:33:18
those and yeah just yeah looking after
00:33:22
Eden Park time security there for for a
00:33:27
young man so 20 years old 21 years old
00:33:29
at that point um a relatively new cop um
00:33:32
is that that exciting and exhilarating
00:33:34
Uh yes and no. You know, it was the
00:33:36
unknown. Hadn't been through this before
00:33:39
and you know, the training was
00:33:40
different. We we certainly didn't have
00:33:43
the protective gear that police have to
00:33:45
have now. And but it was also quite sad.
00:33:49
I remember one time there was a protest
00:33:51
and was marching down Simon Street and
00:33:55
we had to get on a bus
00:33:56
and line up as protest walk past and
00:33:59
they'd be yelling at you and have
00:34:01
phones. And I remember standing next to
00:34:04
one of the um Mari police officer and he
00:34:08
got abused. Yeah. You know, they they
00:34:11
seem to target him and I just I didn't
00:34:13
like that. And then but we had to then
00:34:14
they'd walk past the protest would walk
00:34:16
past, we'd have to get back on the bus,
00:34:18
drive further down the street, get out
00:34:20
and go through it all again because we
00:34:22
didn't have enough staff and that's how
00:34:24
we had to police it. And uh yeah, so it
00:34:26
was interesting and I I know people have
00:34:28
their views and I don't get into
00:34:30
politics around that. Um my only
00:34:32
thoughts is that police staff had to be
00:34:35
there. We didn't have a choice. That was
00:34:36
our job to be there. Whether we be
00:34:39
supported or not, uh we had to be there.
00:34:42
And sort of the worst thing for me was
00:34:45
one of the guys I knew been on the Red
00:34:46
Squad ultimately commit suicide cuz he'd
00:34:49
been severely injured. And um what was
00:34:52
the Red Squad? So like the red squad was
00:34:54
well no that they were a squad formed
00:34:57
trained and they traveled around with
00:35:01
the spring box at their hotel and they
00:35:04
did the Yeah. And they were the ones who
00:35:06
went on you know white cattle went onto
00:35:07
the field um highly trained. Really good
00:35:10
guys. Really good guys. Yeah you know I
00:35:12
knew quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah,
00:35:16
in in terms of um like mental health and
00:35:18
and suicide within within police, is it
00:35:20
much of an issue? The things that you
00:35:22
guys you guys do and experience, it's
00:35:24
it's not normal. Well, I know of three
00:35:29
star three star who have committed
00:35:31
suicide way back. You know, the police
00:35:33
now, as I said before, have really moved
00:35:35
on and in terms of their wellness and
00:35:37
welfare for the staff, it's a priority.
00:35:40
And as a leader, it has to be my
00:35:42
priority. I had to look and you know do
00:35:44
I notice something going on here and if
00:35:45
I do hang on you need to take a few days
00:35:47
off just um and you know the
00:35:50
availability of going to a psychologist
00:35:54
you know which said before I've been to
00:35:56
psychologist but it's a bit like I said
00:35:58
the analogy is you have a car you get a
00:36:01
warrant for the car well going to
00:36:04
psychologist means like get a warrant
00:36:06
just making sure that you are
00:36:07
functioning last yeah I'm 100% what you
00:36:11
what was When did you first see a
00:36:13
therapist? How old were you? Uh oh, no.
00:36:16
This fact for me it wasn't no during
00:36:22
the around 2011 or 12 because some of
00:36:26
the squads we had our child protection
00:36:28
they were then had to go to see the uh
00:36:31
psychologist. And so I would go while I
00:36:34
wasn't down in the weeds doing the
00:36:35
dayto-day investig investigative work
00:36:38
you know because I had my staff there I
00:36:39
had to deal with them. I would go so I
00:36:42
could get a picture of a what's going on
00:36:45
with my staff if I needed to but also
00:36:48
right okay this watch this with staff
00:36:50
I've got to watch this myself thing but
00:36:53
you know I have to grace my own case I
00:36:54
saw the psychologist just just to get
00:36:56
essay it's like wonder if it get check
00:36:59
yeah yeah I I feel like in some areas
00:37:02
there still is like a a stigma about it
00:37:04
or it seem to be seem to be weak but um
00:37:06
it's definitely not it's it's wonderful
00:37:07
it's like a personal trainer for your
00:37:08
head it's it That's brilliant. And you
00:37:11
know, my children, we have
00:37:12
grandchildren. You know, I want to be
00:37:14
good them. I want to be happy and
00:37:17
playing and all that. Try to stay fit.
00:37:19
Um, but Oh, no. As I mentioned earlier,
00:37:22
like I can't reiterate this. Um, I I
00:37:24
think you're in great neck for for a man
00:37:26
that's almost at retirement age actually
00:37:28
for any age. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I say I
00:37:30
just I've always believed that
00:37:32
physically fit, mentally fit and cuz
00:37:34
I've played sports. I've run, you know,
00:37:36
I used to run half marathons and stuff
00:37:38
like that and uh yeah, age is catching
00:37:39
up on me and some of the old football
00:37:41
injuries is catching up. So, I can't run
00:37:43
as much as I'd like to, but you just
00:37:46
change what I do. So, I have a little
00:37:48
routine now where you know I'll do press
00:37:50
ups, sit-ups, weights, um, and then go
00:37:54
for a a basically K run, then do my
00:37:58
sit-ups, weights, and do that again.
00:38:00
Then do five minutes on the X cycle,
00:38:02
then do my sit-ups, press ups, weights,
00:38:04
and stuff, then go for another run, you
00:38:06
know. So, I've just I've changed my
00:38:08
fitness, but I still do that. I try and
00:38:09
do that two to three times a week. Yeah.
00:38:12
So, I've heard stories about you from
00:38:14
previous colleagues that e even though
00:38:15
you didn't have to do this, you still um
00:38:17
put your hand up to do the police
00:38:19
fitness test like well into your 50s
00:38:20
like dragging a trailer around and like
00:38:22
climbing up over a fence. You did it
00:38:24
last year.
00:38:26
Why? You're a desk jockey now, aren't
00:38:27
you? Yeah. But I just it's sometimes
00:38:30
that's about leadership, you know. Hey,
00:38:32
probably for me personally, I'm not let
00:38:34
them think I can't do it. Ego, but but I
00:38:36
for the Yeah, I'll go out and do it.
00:38:38
Yeah. you know, and uh you know, like I
00:38:41
think at 50 you can touch the wall, but
00:38:42
you know, last year I went over struggle
00:38:44
to get over it, but I got over someone
00:38:46
took a photo of me going
00:38:48
over. But yeah, no, it does. And that's
00:38:50
just a personal challenge. Can I stay
00:38:52
fit enough to keep doing the PCT and the
00:38:54
full PC going over the wall? That's
00:38:56
wonderful. I as a guy that's 52 now, I
00:38:58
find that inspiring. Um yeah, I I hope
00:39:01
to be the same when I'm 64 as well. Um
00:39:04
yes, so we talked about the uh the
00:39:06
spring book rights in 81. And you
00:39:07
mentioned um also Queen Street Rights in
00:39:09
'84. I had um I had Andrew Fagen on the
00:39:11
podcast last year who was the lead
00:39:12
singer of a band called the Mockers.
00:39:13
Yes. Yes. Um so they Queen Street Riot
00:39:17
um it was like an end of school year
00:39:19
concert thing at AOT Square December
00:39:23
1984. Yeah. And andrew Fagen and his
00:39:26
band the mockers were playing in the
00:39:27
afternoon. I asked him his recollections
00:39:28
of it and he said, "Oh, there was some
00:39:30
bottles being thrown at him." But then
00:39:32
afterwards, he just walked back to his
00:39:33
boat in West Haven. And of course, no
00:39:35
internet, no cell phones, no technology.
00:39:37
So, he slept blissfully unaware of what
00:39:39
was going on in his boat. And the next
00:39:41
day, um, you know, managed to get to his
00:39:43
landline and call his manager and his
00:39:45
manager was like, "Are you okay? Are you
00:39:47
okay?" What What are your recollections
00:39:49
of that time? Okay. What caused it, by
00:39:50
the way? Was it herbs in the afternoon?
00:39:53
No. So, so what happened was there was
00:39:58
people who' got up on
00:39:59
the o lane at the post office as it was
00:40:02
then up on the ver and started
00:40:04
urinating. So police got up
00:40:07
to put them down, you know, and you
00:40:10
know, they got abuse, you know, and um
00:40:14
it started there and like that night cuz
00:40:18
I was working at Aenddale myself and I
00:40:21
had a permanent partner, a guy
00:40:23
car, but in it was a Friday night and
00:40:26
that week we were our shift was 7:00 at
00:40:29
night to 3:00 in the morning. But we
00:40:32
used to have to come in to this city to
00:40:35
get a car for the night. And we had an
00:40:40
inquiry, this is funny, we had an
00:40:41
inquiry section at Aenddale and they had
00:40:44
this brand new, spanking new Ford
00:40:47
Falcon. It was their pride and joy. You
00:40:50
know, it probably had even 100ks. It was
00:40:52
so new and and we needed a car just to
00:40:55
come to the station, get a car, go back.
00:40:56
So that's what we did. Took that on the
00:40:59
way. And this is about 6:30 at night. on
00:41:01
the way. Oh, can you go to AT Square?
00:41:05
It's disorder. It's out of hand. Um,
00:41:07
okay. Where do you want us to park? Oh,
00:41:10
just park out where the picture theaters
00:41:12
are in Queen Street there. So, that's
00:41:13
where we park this brand new packing
00:41:16
gun. And at that time because we had our
00:41:19
PR24 to come out the longer pattern
00:41:22
which come out during spring. Uh but we
00:41:25
had had no he we just had a short sleeve
00:41:29
t-shirt and you get out there and next
00:41:32
thing this riot is developing. It's
00:41:33
getting worse and ultimately we ended up
00:41:38
doing bad charges down Queen Street but
00:41:40
we had nothing in the bottle of flying.
00:41:42
I think there's something like 56 police
00:41:44
officers taken to hospital that night.
00:41:46
And I remember at one stage we were
00:41:47
doing B charge down and you just go 20
00:41:49
meters instead of stopping the boss want
00:41:51
to come back 10 meters which as soon as
00:41:53
you came back they b on but you'd be
00:41:56
doing bon charge and the person I
00:41:57
remember when the person beside me just
00:41:59
screamed and dropped you know and
00:42:02
because all we had was our unifor we
00:42:04
didn't have protective and yeah I think
00:42:07
I finished 3:00 the next morning and my
00:42:11
partner was covered in blood.
00:42:14
Yeah. And it was like a war zone. It was
00:42:16
horren. It was a riot and um yeah, I
00:42:20
remember one time you'd heard that
00:42:22
because we forcing them back down Queen
00:42:24
Street. Then you start hear the glass
00:42:25
going and they were just smashing every
00:42:27
shop window it was. And then you start
00:42:30
see the looting stuff. It was just out
00:42:32
of control. And uh yeah, and the worst
00:42:36
thing was that brand new wood falcon had
00:42:40
every panel smashed. He was on this roof
00:42:43
and yeah, those inquiry staff because
00:42:46
they're older policemen just gave me
00:42:48
grief. I still know see one of them and
00:42:51
he still gives me grief.
00:42:53
Oh, it was like your fault. Yeah, cuz we
00:42:55
took their car and you know cuz we're
00:42:57
going to pick up our car we have the
00:42:58
night and take their car back. You know
00:43:00
that didn't happen. So So I think um
00:43:03
Dave Dobin faced some charges didn't cuz
00:43:06
I think his band Smash was on stage at
00:43:08
the time. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Yeah. Do
00:43:11
you like DD Smash or Dave D? I do like
00:43:13
the music. Yeah. I'm not impressed
00:43:15
because I had friends who were cuz there
00:43:18
was only police by a sergeant who I knew
00:43:21
I actually played football with and five
00:43:24
star and of course it's a full AS square
00:43:27
and they turn on them and yeah it was
00:43:29
pretty tough and they're just trying to
00:43:31
do their job. Um but yeah I do listen to
00:43:34
that music. Does it is it triggering at
00:43:38
times? Yeah. Yep. And and in fact if
00:43:40
Yeah. But when I hear the name, you
00:43:42
know, yeah, right, am I automatically
00:43:45
where I go? Yeah. Yeah. And the funny
00:43:48
thing just bringing up the differences
00:43:49
between like then and now in terms of
00:43:50
policing, like a big part of the Grace
00:43:52
Main case, and we'll get into that,
00:43:53
centered around um this the incredible
00:43:56
um CCTV footage. Yeah. High definition
00:43:59
footage everywhere back then in ' 84.
00:44:01
Yeah. Um none of those looters would
00:44:03
have been caught, right? Because there
00:44:04
was not a camera anywhere. No, no
00:44:06
cameras there.
00:44:08
Um, and another one you mentioned
00:44:10
before, um, Operation Stockholm, the
00:44:12
Swedish tourists. Yeah. So, what was
00:44:14
your involvement with that? That was
00:44:15
down Cormander way, right? So, what
00:44:17
happened was I was working a dirty
00:44:18
weekend and it was a
00:44:20
Saturday and or Sunday, it might have
00:44:22
been. And uh the Swedish couple were
00:44:25
missing. Not that we knew uh cuz it last
00:44:28
been in ts and it had a car and the car
00:44:31
was found in Wland Street in
00:44:33
M. And so the DI John Hughes at the time
00:44:37
got a group of us together cuz we were
00:44:38
working and uh he just basically said
00:44:42
right you you and you'll be on this
00:44:44
quarry and you and you you'll be on till
00:44:47
the end. And he pointed to me you'll be
00:44:48
on to the end. Uh and it started from
00:44:51
there and so we started doing general
00:44:53
inquiries trying to background and stuff
00:44:55
and then um cuz I had a couple of young
00:44:59
children at the time so staff who didn't
00:45:02
went to based in teams I was based in
00:45:04
Oakland and yeah we went for a few
00:45:08
months and then David Tam Harry's name
00:45:11
came up and I was we we had a code that
00:45:16
if the detective senior sergeant rang us
00:45:20
and said copy's boiling. We were on to
00:45:22
it. Definitely on to it.
00:45:25
And I don't know, Wednesday night,
00:45:27
something like that in the week about
00:45:29
7:00 and I get a phone call from Danger
00:45:31
Coffees. Well, you know, because been
00:45:34
full time on inquiry and so I went out,
00:45:38
I had to get a search warrant for the
00:45:40
address where this family lived in
00:45:43
Aenddale. And then we found property
00:45:46
belonged to a Swedish couple and it went
00:45:48
from there. And then the next morning,
00:45:50
uh, I think I finished about 2:00 in the
00:45:53
morning back at work 8:00 briefing and
00:45:57
they had a team to go up to Men where
00:46:00
Tim Hi was and I was included in that
00:46:03
team part of the interview team and and
00:46:07
it started from there and and of course
00:46:10
that day admitted to stealing the car,
00:46:14
but that was all. And it just went from
00:46:17
there. And then my one of my tasks was
00:46:19
to do background into him or his
00:46:23
criminal offending or cases and stuff
00:46:25
like that which which I did
00:46:28
and yeah we interviewed him a number of
00:46:31
times and he got charged and trial and
00:46:35
you know it was a circumstantial case
00:46:37
you know nobody's been found in no scene
00:46:41
was circumstantial and yeah got
00:46:43
convicted.
00:46:45
when you're interviewing someone like
00:46:46
that.
00:46:48
Um yeah, what's it like? Do you Michelle
00:46:52
Obama's got this quote that um I've you
00:46:54
I've used on the podcast heaps. I'll
00:46:56
probably botch it up, but it's something
00:46:57
like um most people are hard uh to
00:47:00
dislike up close. I feel like there's
00:47:02
probably exceptions to that rule. And
00:47:03
I've had um an old lady who was on the
00:47:05
podcast, Chuck Henwood. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:47:07
Yeah. Yeah. Um we talked to him about um
00:47:10
who was Malcolm Ray. Oh, Malcolm Ray
00:47:12
Jerry Thompson. Yeah. Yeah. No, Malcolm
00:47:14
Ray. He said dead in the eyes. Yeah. Imp
00:47:16
impossible to like up close or far away.
00:47:18
Yeah. Um when you with someone like
00:47:20
Tamahi who's, you know, been convicted
00:47:22
and at that point was accused of like
00:47:24
murdering these um these backpackers.
00:47:26
Yeah. What's it like? Look, he was an
00:47:29
intelligent enough guy. He could talk
00:47:32
quite willingly talk about a whole lot
00:47:33
of things. Obviously talk about the bush
00:47:35
um that he grown up in.
00:47:37
Yeah. Like Yeah. He wasn't I've dealt
00:47:40
with people before who we left in a room
00:47:43
with them where I never got that that
00:47:46
Yes. I totally believe and I know it's
00:47:48
been through appeals and you know just
00:47:50
even last year the court of appeal still
00:47:53
found him guilty and um and I've always
00:47:56
believed that he was guilty you know my
00:47:57
knowledge of all the files where he was
00:48:00
involved in and my dealings with him and
00:48:03
yeah he won't people won't convince me
00:48:05
otherwise. M yeah mate of mine put out a
00:48:08
podcast last year this guy Ryan Wolf put
00:48:09
out a podcast called Gil which revisits
00:48:12
that when um you do do things like that
00:48:15
like like do you listen to it does it
00:48:16
bother you does it piss you off are you
00:48:18
indifferent about it you know I I have
00:48:20
listened to it and I've spoken to Ryan
00:48:22
and uh there's certain things in there I
00:48:24
go oh no that's not quite right but
00:48:27
there's other things oh that's
00:48:28
interesting um but then you know from
00:48:30
the investigation I was based in Oakland
00:48:31
yes once a week we had to go to Tims for
00:48:33
a briefing to catch up with anything.
00:48:35
So, I wasn't involved in a lot of the
00:48:36
stuff that went on down in Temp and the
00:48:39
Daily Breakers, but we had so much work
00:48:41
in Oakland to do. Uh, yeah.
00:48:45
Um, yeah. Another thing in your um
00:48:49
amazing career, the 1990 Commonwealth
00:48:50
Games, were you were you involved with
00:48:52
Protecting the Queen? Oh, yes, I was.
00:48:55
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, sorry been on a
00:48:59
a brand new team basically called
00:49:01
witness protection.
00:49:03
That's VIP squad and went down do
00:49:09
personal protection officer training.
00:49:11
Did that and and that included driving,
00:49:15
firing
00:49:16
this. Uh we then when the Comwalth Games
00:49:22
were on and Prince Andrew came first and
00:49:26
I was a security car driver behind their
00:49:29
car. So I'd have British personal
00:49:32
protection officers in the car and yeah
00:49:35
we went round and then
00:49:38
uh on the on a closing ceremony could by
00:49:41
then the queen had come across and so I
00:49:43
was driver behind the queen's car. So,
00:49:45
I've done a lap of Mount
00:49:47
Smart driving around. So badass. Yeah,
00:49:51
it's cool. I know. I know. Driving, not
00:49:53
running.
00:49:55
Um, yeah, there's some good memories,
00:49:57
eh? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:49:59
The job is fantastic. You know, like,
00:50:00
and I'd say to people, everything is
00:50:02
what you make of it. Yeah. Within the
00:50:03
police, there are so many different
00:50:05
fears. Whether you want to be a dog
00:50:06
handler, if you want to work some search
00:50:08
and rescue, if you want to work on
00:50:09
eagle, you know, like in going work in
00:50:12
rural, like I've worked in Kaoi, it's
00:50:14
totally different work in the big city.
00:50:15
So I know both aspects you there's
00:50:17
different you can work in the school
00:50:19
community officer roles, all that sort
00:50:22
of stuff, youth aid, there's a whole
00:50:24
vast range and yeah, everything's what
00:50:26
you make of it. And make sure you're
00:50:28
happy. And that's my job. Make sure the
00:50:30
staff are happy because if they're not
00:50:31
happy, they're not going to do a good
00:50:32
job. Yeah. Yeah. Most of the career um
00:50:35
has been in Oakland, but yeah, there's
00:50:36
been stints in Kaoi and Hogs Bay. Yeah,
00:50:39
they they eventually got you to Hogs
00:50:40
Bay. I got there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:43
Yeah. What were How long were those
00:50:44
stints for him? What was that? So, uh
00:50:47
Kao I went up there because I had some
00:50:49
in-laws who lived Kitaya North. I had
00:50:51
very close friends who lived Kerry Kerry
00:50:53
and I just wanted something to you. I
00:50:55
just wanted to experience something
00:50:56
totally different and believe me it was
00:50:59
uh you know they called me the tar seal
00:51:01
detective when I got up there because a
00:51:03
lot of the 80% of the roads in Northland
00:51:05
or the far north
00:51:07
were not tal you know they're just yeah
00:51:11
dirt tracks up um so but it was a
00:51:14
different and like I try and explain
00:51:16
even to some of my staff now that I
00:51:19
remember going out getting called to a
00:51:20
homicide at the back of openoni there
00:51:23
was a single man I Uh there was myself
00:51:26
as a detective. It's 45minute drive. You
00:51:30
go there, you could see the person in
00:51:32
this house and then Foreman had been a
00:51:34
convicted murderer. Uh if you go there,
00:51:37
you see the person and he's obviously
00:51:39
dead in the house and his blood know
00:51:40
he's been murdered. But a double story
00:51:42
house and thought gosh, we'll say
00:51:43
someone else is in the house. Need to
00:51:45
check. Stepping plates that you see at
00:51:47
crime scenes now haven't got to
00:51:48
Northland. We had them in Oakland, not
00:51:50
here, but we didn't have them in
00:51:52
Northland.
00:51:53
So I have to rip pages out of my pad and
00:51:57
to climb so I didn't in case I
00:51:59
contaminated the scene. There's none
00:52:01
there. We get back. We then had to drive
00:52:03
5 kilometers to get communications. So
00:52:06
we're out of comps where we were and
00:52:10
then you have to wait 3 and 1 half hours
00:52:12
for the DI and staff to arrive from
00:52:16
Pere. That doesn't happen in the big
00:52:18
cities. But so I know what it's like in
00:52:21
rural small town New Zealand. What was
00:52:23
Do you Did that feel like um Yeah. Is it
00:52:26
a small town sort of job? Do you know
00:52:28
what I mean? Slower pace of life for a
00:52:29
cop police officer. It was It wasn't a
00:52:33
slower pace of life. It was horrendously
00:52:35
busy. I don't think I've ever been so
00:52:36
busy in my life. Wow. The serious crime
00:52:39
was just Yeah. Bl. And but of course
00:52:43
they didn't have they didn't have social
00:52:44
media. You didn't have media mainstream
00:52:47
media up there. And so stuff that we
00:52:50
worked on would be front page news under
00:52:53
the radar. So you had to work on it. And
00:52:56
you know if you had to go have a high
00:52:58
court trial that was in fun. So you
00:53:00
could have a case in say open which is
00:53:03
45 minutes away from Kaoi and the trial
00:53:07
would be in fun and you've got to get
00:53:09
your witnesses there. So you start
00:53:10
really early and get them. It's yeah
00:53:13
it's a totally different world. And then
00:53:15
Hawks Bay what was what was going on
00:53:17
down there? Was it a lot of gang
00:53:18
activity? Yeah. Yeah. I I first one of
00:53:21
the reasons why I went down, you know,
00:53:23
good out of Kao was we we'd come back to
00:53:26
Oakland for holidays and the traffic and
00:53:28
of course there's no traffic lights in
00:53:29
KO at the time. I thought I'm not going
00:53:31
back to Oakland. And uh then we lived on
00:53:35
a farm. We moved into the farm got moved
00:53:38
into a police house and everybody knew
00:53:40
where the detective lived. And then my
00:53:42
oldest son got beaten up to school cuz
00:53:44
his dad was a detective and I thought,
00:53:45
"Oh, that's not fair." and I've got a
00:53:47
you know yes it's an invention for kids
00:53:49
but I've got to also look after them and
00:53:51
so I thought would always like horse bay
00:53:54
so I was trying to get promotion to
00:53:57
sergeant down there but a detective job
00:53:59
came up in so applied got that went down
00:54:02
there and within about four or five
00:54:03
months got a sergeant job at Hastings
00:54:06
which was a real open because I didn't
00:54:08
know my way around and uh yeah had the
00:54:11
staff but it's also going back to
00:54:13
uniform sergeant was leadership
00:54:15
management 101 time. So, yeah.
00:54:21
Yeah. One thing that amazes me is like
00:54:22
how much you've you've done. So, there's
00:54:24
the the career side of things, but also
00:54:25
um your dad of four, three sons and a
00:54:27
daughter. Yep. And a granddad now. We'll
00:54:29
get to that chapter of your life later,
00:54:31
but um also like a a mate of mine, Brad,
00:54:33
messaged me and he said, "You coached
00:54:35
his football team for a while and you
00:54:36
were president of the club." Um how
00:54:38
Yeah.
00:54:40
First of all, the extracurricular stuff
00:54:42
blows my mind and I suppose it's an
00:54:43
essential thing to have that sort of
00:54:44
balance, but I don't know how you how
00:54:46
you prioritize and fit it in. But also,
00:54:48
um the family stuff like did you were
00:54:50
there a lot of sacrifices made like
00:54:52
things that you missed because you had
00:54:54
to drop everything in order to get back
00:54:55
to a crisis at work? Absolutely. It was
00:54:59
um and and probably a really good
00:55:01
example is we moved to Kaoi and we lived
00:55:04
out on a farm in Kai. It was during the
00:55:06
school holidays. I had four children. My
00:55:09
daughter was only six months old and
00:55:12
within I think it's a week of being
00:55:15
working starting working up there. It
00:55:17
was school holidays and cuz we live on
00:55:18
farm so your nearest neighbor is about
00:55:20
200 meters away and you know my then
00:55:23
wife didn't know anyone
00:55:25
around and there's a homicide in Pong
00:55:29
which I got sent to and I was out of
00:55:31
town for 10 days. So she's left by
00:55:33
herself with the children and that's
00:55:36
where those small communities the wives
00:55:38
and partners really get together and
00:55:40
support each other which is really good.
00:55:43
So
00:55:45
uh yeah I
00:55:48
just think that there was times where
00:55:51
yeah I did miss birthdays um which was
00:55:54
sad. Um but they understood you and we
00:55:57
taught and kids are fantastic. They've
00:55:59
grown up now they're adults. I I know
00:56:01
they're proud of me, but I am so proud
00:56:04
of them and what they've achieved and
00:56:05
what they've done and uh Yeah. just
00:56:08
Yeah. that that they're my will. I just
00:56:11
um the grandkids it's yeah and that's
00:56:15
you and you of course when your children
00:56:16
start to grow up and they get to start
00:56:18
playing sport and so I was involved with
00:56:21
coaching which is really great. as I
00:56:23
said had three boys and a girl. Um I
00:56:25
said to my boys once you reach teenage
00:56:27
years I'm going to stop coaching you
00:56:28
because I don't want to lose the
00:56:30
relationship the father son relationship
00:56:32
and give you advice but I'm not going to
00:56:34
be coaching you and of course my oldest
00:56:36
boy at high school first year high
00:56:40
school played football then I'm going to
00:56:41
play rugby.
00:56:43
What? And that was but good on him.
00:56:46
Yeah. He ended up playing league end up
00:56:47
being vice captain of the college verse
00:56:49
15. Uh yeah that's it didn't matter as
00:56:53
long as there's multiple boards you know
00:56:55
my daughter well gymnastics net football
00:56:59
um some sons that surf I surf life
00:57:01
saving all the kids that surf life
00:57:03
saving uh athletics I just anything to
00:57:06
keep them occupied and yeah and I just
00:57:09
got involved as a volunteer just got
00:57:11
involved coaching managing help me out
00:57:13
uh and yeah then of course football club
00:57:17
coast and 96 came back to Oakland
00:57:20
and just started coaching. One of mine
00:57:23
in the police said, "You should get on
00:57:24
the junior committee did." And then, you
00:57:27
know, just through the coaching, I I
00:57:31
ultimately did the international team
00:57:33
coaches license back then through New
00:57:35
Zealand football and I wasn't competent
00:57:37
yet at the end. So, I didn't gain that,
00:57:40
but I had my national license. Uh but I
00:57:43
worked with New Zealand football
00:57:44
coaching in theirmies and yeah I'd take
00:57:47
you know week off work to run school
00:57:49
holiday programs up this coast and um
00:57:52
yeah and then just giving back and then
00:57:54
I got I like coaching the little ones
00:57:56
you know sort of seven eight years old
00:57:58
but I also like coaching the 17 year
00:58:00
olds the teenagers and because you can
00:58:03
have a really good a good role model and
00:58:05
I know police throughout the country who
00:58:08
are involved in sports clubs and I've
00:58:09
got some friends who've done it and I
00:58:11
think it's in the DNA to be community
00:58:13
oriented, to be community-minded and get
00:58:15
out there and help in the community. And
00:58:18
yeah, I see it. And you know, like for
00:58:20
me, the big honor really is that there's
00:58:25
probably nearly a dozen players I've
00:58:26
coached, both boys and girls, that join
00:58:28
New Zealand police, you know, and I
00:58:30
think, well, you know, if I was a good
00:58:33
role model for them and that's what
00:58:34
they've done. And I know there's other
00:58:35
police out there around the country who
00:58:36
do the same thing. And I'm sure there's
00:58:38
other kids who could have been doing the
00:58:40
police.
00:58:43
God, you've been so generous, eh? You
00:58:45
know, be easy to go, listen, you know,
00:58:47
I'm I'm tired. You I've got a I've got a
00:58:50
family and my job and that's enough. Um
00:58:52
yeah, Brad, who I mentioned, a friend of
00:58:54
mine. Um he wanted me to ask you about
00:58:56
some FBI training. He said, "I've got
00:58:58
some you've got some great yarns about
00:58:59
that." Did you What was FBI training?
00:59:01
So, you know, like I've been fortunate
00:59:03
with New Zealand Police. Um some of the
00:59:05
leadership courses I've been on like
00:59:07
back in
00:59:10
200
00:59:11
six I went to CRA for a month on a
00:59:14
what's called a management series crime
00:59:16
course which is like almost a South
00:59:18
Pacific type course but run by AFP in
00:59:21
CRA and there you get a lot of media
00:59:23
training like we had almost a week of
00:59:25
media training which was good you know
00:59:27
starts to repair you and although I'd
00:59:30
already done some media I was I was a
00:59:32
detective seen about it. And then in
00:59:35
2007, I went back to CRA for a
00:59:40
um human trafficking for sexual
00:59:42
exploitation course, a 3-week course um
00:59:46
which is around human trafficking, you
00:59:48
know, forced labor, sex servitude. Uh
00:59:52
and then I was really lucky in
00:59:55
2010. I was off the chance to go to
00:59:59
quantico FBI academy over in the states
01:00:02
for basically it's a 3 month or two and
01:00:04
a half month course which is like a
01:00:06
university semester so you had to do
01:00:08
seven subjects and I remember at the
01:00:12
time I was booked to go in January 2010
01:00:16
in the December my mother had been and
01:00:18
she had had cancer 14 years earlier but
01:00:20
had been diagnosed with terminal cancer
01:00:23
and I remember between the Christmas and
01:00:24
New Year I' taken down to the oncologist
01:00:26
and she got off the toilet and I just
01:00:28
said to him, "Oh, next week I'm off to
01:00:30
the States for 3 months and he just
01:00:31
looked at me and he shook his head." Oh.
01:00:34
So I had to ring up and they changed it
01:00:36
to July and my mother passed away in
01:00:38
February. Um so we yeah went across to
01:00:43
Quantico seven sub you had to do witness
01:00:45
and law enforcement was compulsory. Uh
01:00:47
the international students there's seven
01:00:49
uh there's sorry 272 people on the
01:00:51
course and 30 of us were from all around
01:00:55
the world. There was one from New
01:00:56
Zealand and the New Zealand police was
01:00:58
at that time was sending one staff
01:01:01
member every two years. So I was really
01:01:03
fortunate to go. Uh there's a couple
01:01:05
from Australia but just Europe all
01:01:08
around the world and uh yeah I'm still
01:01:10
Facebook friends with most of them and
01:01:12
it's great. But yeah the course yeah so
01:01:16
fitness and law enforcement
01:01:18
um international law paper. I did public
01:01:22
speaking. I did police and the media did
01:01:25
strategies for dealing with violent
01:01:27
crime, managing death investigations and
01:01:30
last one was the
01:01:32
psychological profile of street and
01:01:35
prison gangs. So it was like being at
01:01:37
university the whole semester because we
01:01:39
had sort of small tests and
01:01:40
presentations to do on it and uh but
01:01:44
yeah it was fantastic but what I saw was
01:01:46
like my roommate he had shot and killed
01:01:49
someone in the line of duty. There was a
01:01:51
guy across the room from me who had shot
01:01:53
and killed a guy in the line of duty,
01:01:54
but at the same time he had been shot
01:01:56
and you can see the facial
01:01:58
reconstruction. Uh, and but that was the
01:02:00
normal thing. That was life then. And
01:02:03
you know, dare I say, we're starting to
01:02:05
see that a little bit now, New Zealand
01:02:07
police. But yeah, it was different like
01:02:09
cuz in the FBI academy and they're from
01:02:12
all the law different law enforcement
01:02:14
agencies across the state, police
01:02:16
department, immigration type, um, drug
01:02:19
and alcohol Okay. Um, yeah.
01:02:23
And they weren't allowed to have their
01:02:25
fire for firearms. Well, they felt
01:02:26
naked. I remembered one time we went to
01:02:29
a Walmart and they just couldn't believe
01:02:31
they were going without their fire for
01:02:33
firearm. What? So what? You know, but
01:02:36
not to them. Yeah. Yeah. What do you
01:02:38
think? Should should it should New
01:02:39
Zealand police be armed? Look, I have I
01:02:42
have views and it's easy for me because
01:02:44
I sit up in the office. I'm not on the
01:02:45
street daily and I if I look at say
01:02:50
small rural town small town rural New
01:02:53
Zealand where's your backup where's your
01:02:55
and maybe they should you know in the
01:02:57
biggest cities there's a lot more backup
01:02:59
it's getting to a stage you ultimately
01:03:02
you know a decision will be made now
01:03:06
yeah I sort of swing both ways I sort of
01:03:08
think in the big city maybe not um some
01:03:12
of the things that we put in place seem
01:03:14
are doing well. They won't be perfect,
01:03:16
but once again, I'm not on the street.
01:03:17
I'm not the one basic. And I read our
01:03:19
occurrences every day and there's always
01:03:21
firearms being found. There's and you've
01:03:23
just seen the media. One of our team um
01:03:25
this week found a 3D
01:03:28
um firearm, you know, and all these guns
01:03:30
and there's a photo in the herald and
01:03:33
and they look real and they do operate
01:03:35
like real and that's a real concern
01:03:38
about firearms out there and the safety
01:03:40
for our staff is huge.
01:03:43
So all this training you had the FBI
01:03:45
staff and the media training in CA CRA I
01:03:47
suppose um and all the experiences you
01:03:50
had as a police officer um pre Grace
01:03:54
Main I suppose it all sort of
01:03:56
you comulated yeah commulated commulated
01:04:00
yeah and to being the right man at the
01:04:01
right time to be fair I had as a
01:04:04
detective in Kao I'd done media as a
01:04:07
detective sergeant in Ory I'd had to do
01:04:10
media so it wasn't
01:04:12
knew and including like I was the 2 IC
01:04:16
of as a detective sergeant of the Joan
01:04:18
McCarthy homicide in Pong
01:04:21
1998 and you know that role went for six
01:04:25
and a half weeks and there's lot and as
01:04:28
to see you've got to organize coordinate
01:04:30
put the file together yes you have a
01:04:33
team and you have a um B manager but
01:04:36
everything falls on you to make sure
01:04:38
everything works and so there's a lot of
01:04:40
pressure stress on that and so but my
01:04:43
boss let me do some meeting around that
01:04:45
you know and and that's what I'm doing
01:04:47
I'm trying to get some of my staff to do
01:04:48
more media some of them really nervous
01:04:50
don't worry but um it gets easy anything
01:04:53
gets easier the more you do it correct
01:04:54
correct and so I had already done uh
01:04:57
different media aspects and even leading
01:04:59
up to before Grace Main I've done um
01:05:02
cold case series uh different TV show
01:05:06
different media for different homicides
01:05:07
crimes so you you the more you do the
01:05:10
more confident you get um you can never
01:05:13
predict every question that comes and
01:05:15
you can't answer every question
01:05:16
unfortunately because that's that's the
01:05:18
nature of the work we're doing but yep
01:05:21
it's you get to grace me and and it was
01:05:25
interesting
01:05:26
because you know while I wasn't involved
01:05:28
in the media with the Swedish inquiry is
01:05:31
international and the media and I know
01:05:33
there's a lot of media involved uh
01:05:36
coming over particularly around time of
01:05:37
resident court cases like that And you
01:05:40
know I sort of was aware of me I wasn't
01:05:42
involved in that aspect of it obviously
01:05:44
as as a detective but I was very
01:05:47
conscious of it and you know there's
01:05:49
some other cases that came up where
01:05:51
international and media and so as soon
01:05:54
as that grace case the media was going
01:05:56
to be huge and and one of the things
01:05:59
that happened was um and the family and
01:06:00
like a lot happens here in New Zealand
01:06:02
now had put her missing on a community
01:06:05
Facebook page and the Essex media had
01:06:08
picked that up. So essentially some of
01:06:10
the British media knew before we even
01:06:11
had the complaint that she was missing
01:06:13
in New Zealand. And of course it didn't
01:06:16
take long
01:06:18
once we had the complaint started
01:06:21
investigating
01:06:23
uh that media museum media picked it up
01:06:27
and it was even on day one and so came
01:06:31
in on the Wednesday
01:06:33
afternoon just got some basic inquiries
01:06:35
done and it was getting updated up to
01:06:36
about 10:00 that night and the next day
01:06:39
we start with the investigation get an
01:06:41
investigation team start and the media
01:06:43
questions had already started
01:06:45
And so I ended up having two police
01:06:49
media staff with me the whole time
01:06:51
because it was so intense.
01:06:55
Yeah. So So this all happens um in your
01:06:58
late 50s. You're 58 59 years old.
01:07:01
Pro prior prior to that, what would you
01:07:03
have said was your like career
01:07:05
definfining moment?
01:07:07
Uh I'd had a couple before that like the
01:07:11
you know the Swedish inquiry was huge
01:07:13
and you know the result and my
01:07:16
involvement because I had been part of
01:07:17
the interview team with Tamary. Uh and
01:07:21
so that was big for me. The Joan
01:07:24
McCarthy homicide was really big because
01:07:27
Travis Burns was the offender
01:07:30
and it had gone on for four months
01:07:34
before we got on to
01:07:36
you know him as being he is the offender
01:07:40
and there's a lot of pressure during the
01:07:43
trial and so I was basically two years
01:07:45
on that from time of investigation in
01:07:47
the November 1998 right through to when
01:07:50
the trial ended tidy up everything uh
01:07:53
yeah two years on and of course a trial
01:07:58
that big and there's a lot of pressure
01:08:00
right there's pressure um because that
01:08:03
time you know DNA And you know
01:08:06
crosscontamination was an issue uh
01:08:08
raised as defense and I know the SR
01:08:11
scientist was under a lot of pressure
01:08:13
and you I was told at one stage that if
01:08:15
we lose this case we could lose ESR from
01:08:17
New Zealand and we police would have to
01:08:19
send their exhibits across to Melbourne
01:08:21
testing. So there's a lot of pressure.
01:08:24
Um dare I say Joe Karum sat in the back
01:08:25
of the court at time. Um you know you're
01:08:28
dealing with a family and it's
01:08:30
restaurant is hard really hard for them.
01:08:33
So that was a big case and that yeah had
01:08:37
a big impact because I was a detective
01:08:40
sergeant. Yeah. I was living up on the
01:08:42
coast and that's where it happened upon.
01:08:44
Yeah. So then then
01:08:47
um
01:08:50
201 14 but again November 2014 the 1080
01:08:56
and the milk powder scare operation
01:08:58
Concord came on and I sort of ran that
01:09:01
from the November through to February
01:09:03
when because of the blackmail
01:09:05
implications on the government pressure.
01:09:07
Yeah. a D super came in to run it and I
01:09:09
ended up being in charge of the suspect
01:09:11
team and we
01:09:13
had something like over 2,000 persons of
01:09:17
interest and we finally got down and got
01:09:20
the offender and he pleaded guilty court
01:09:23
which was huge because there's huge
01:09:25
that's probably one of the most
01:09:28
politically motivated well not motivated
01:09:30
but
01:09:31
um investigation political investigation
01:09:34
we've done because we had to brief the
01:09:36
prime minister daily. Was that Helen?
01:09:39
Uh, no that was John Ke and yeah because
01:09:43
the implications what we were told
01:09:46
was in front collapsed then the New
01:09:49
Zealand
01:09:51
comes and that's huge. Yeah. And so yeah
01:09:54
there was a lot of pressure on that and
01:09:56
like every day I had to brief
01:09:59
headquarters on everything that was
01:10:00
going on and that included Christmas
01:10:02
Day, New Year's Day.
01:10:07
Do you want to pour? Yeah. Pause for a
01:10:08
drink of
01:10:10
water.
01:10:12
Oh my god. These the
01:10:15
Yeah. Spent such a career. These these
01:10:18
stories are just the things that you've
01:10:19
seen and done. It's remarkable. How you
01:10:21
feeling? You going okay? Yeah. Good. I'm
01:10:22
fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I
01:10:25
watched The Lie last night on Netflix.
01:10:27
Oh, yes. Um Yeah. I should have asked
01:10:28
royalties. No. Sorry. You've you've seen
01:10:31
it. I You're involved with that. Have
01:10:33
you watched it? And how do you feel when
01:10:34
you watch it? Uh well I watched it way
01:10:36
back when it first in fact it was really
01:10:38
interesting because obviously I was
01:10:39
involved in the production of it and the
01:10:41
director from UK came over and then last
01:10:46
year I was in Europe and I went over to
01:10:48
London and I actually stayed with
01:10:49
Jillian Main for three nights just to
01:10:52
keep up which is really good for her
01:10:53
because she could just talk to me about
01:10:54
things. She couldn't talk about family
01:10:55
and friends cuz I knew everything gone
01:10:58
on the uh like about what sort of stuff
01:11:01
what sort of stuff would she would she
01:11:03
chat about with with you.
01:11:08
So some of the Julian would chat to me
01:11:11
about some of the personal stuff, you
01:11:14
know, around around grace, around the
01:11:16
case
01:11:18
and some of the things that went on
01:11:20
which, you know, because there was some
01:11:21
stuff that was suppressed and, you know,
01:11:24
I could talk to her and because cuz she
01:11:26
couldn't talk to her friends or family
01:11:27
because they didn't know in the detail,
01:11:30
but I could talk and I think there's a
01:11:31
very good outlet with her to and I
01:11:35
remember a couple times we sat have
01:11:36
breakfast and then 3 hours later we're
01:11:38
still talking. So that was good. Uh but
01:11:43
was while I was over in the UK and I had
01:11:45
a friend in Aussie contact me and said,
01:11:48
"I just been looking at Netflix. I see
01:11:51
this girl on there. Next thing I hear
01:11:52
your effing voice. What the heck?" I
01:11:55
said,
01:11:56
"What?" And uh he said, "Yeah." So then
01:11:59
I contacted Brenon New Zealand and said,
01:12:01
"Hey, this the lie. What?" Oh, yeah.
01:12:03
It's going to start on Netflix next
01:12:04
week. So I actually caught up with the
01:12:07
director over in London. She didn't even
01:12:09
know. So yeah, it wasn't until I got
01:12:11
home and then I watched that. Okay, I
01:12:15
watched it. So I thought it was done
01:12:17
really well and I thought the message
01:12:18
behind it, you know, in terms of the
01:12:20
rough sex defense was really really good
01:12:23
and
01:12:24
um particularly at the very end and you
01:12:27
see all those names of all those women
01:12:29
that have died as a result of rough sex.
01:12:34
Yeah. Um, so I'm just stuck on um
01:12:37
Jillian Melain like yeah whenever I
01:12:40
think of her like it just it breaks my
01:12:42
heart in a way like um first of all what
01:12:44
she's done um you post losing um Grace
01:12:47
and David is remarkable like Kilamanjaro
01:12:50
and she's done all this charitable stuff
01:12:51
the handbag charity and love grace
01:12:53
campaign handbags. Yeah. Yeah. I can't
01:12:55
imagine, you know, because people say
01:12:57
time heals the wounds, but I don't know.
01:12:59
I don't think that's the sort of grief
01:13:00
that you could ever get over. And even
01:13:01
though medically there's no way of
01:13:02
knowing it, like there's um there's
01:13:04
there's Yeah.
01:13:06
Uh yeah, her husband's um cancer had to
01:13:10
be caused by stress, right? Absolutely.
01:13:12
Absolutely. It was interesting because
01:13:16
Yeah. I got it really well. It was when
01:13:18
we heard that he was flying over and
01:13:20
then we heard that he was a self-made
01:13:21
billionaire and he's bring the media
01:13:23
with him. I thought, "Oh my god, this
01:13:24
last week." So I said to my family l lay
01:13:27
off, "When you pick him up, bring him to
01:13:29
my office." So he comes into the office
01:13:30
and we we're just chatting away and I
01:13:33
said, "Look, one of the things I will do
01:13:35
is I'll tell you everything before I
01:13:37
talk to the media cuz it's only fair
01:13:39
that you're here
01:13:40
first." I said, "Okay." I said, "There's
01:13:43
only one condition on that." I said, "If
01:13:47
you talk to the media out of turn, I'll
01:13:49
have to be careful what I tell you. I'll
01:13:52
stop talking to you.
01:13:53
like that and he looked at me and I
01:13:56
thought, "Oh gosh, no one's ever spoken
01:13:57
to him like that before." And and but he
01:14:00
was really good. Um he said, "No, no,
01:14:02
I'm not here. This is your job. That's
01:14:04
your job." Blah blah blah. So I' just
01:14:06
gone from saying, "I don't want you to
01:14:08
speak to the media out of turn." And
01:14:10
then I said, "I want you to sit with me
01:14:12
at the media conference this afternoon,"
01:14:15
which he did, which and you know, he got
01:14:17
upset and it was pretty tough.
01:14:20
Where were things at at that point? Did
01:14:21
you She was just a missing person. Still
01:14:23
a missing person. And that and yeah, so
01:14:26
she gets reported as a missing person.
01:14:28
And this is one of the reasons why we go
01:14:29
to the media. It wasn't a homicide. And
01:14:32
I totally understand the family violence
01:14:33
homicides, but usually we have that
01:14:35
offended within 24 hours. And so you
01:14:37
don't go to the media. But this is a
01:14:39
missing person. And so we can go to the
01:14:42
media and because of the red flags right
01:14:45
from the start, you know, we had to go
01:14:47
to the media. red flags as in a girl
01:14:50
that was active on social media that it
01:14:51
wasn't. Yeah. Here's Grace um been in
01:14:55
contact with her family every day since
01:14:57
she'd been overseas and she'd been in
01:14:58
Peru before she came to New Zealand. Um
01:15:01
she had it was her birthday on the 2nd
01:15:04
of December and of course she went out
01:15:07
the night of the 1st December. She'd
01:15:09
messaged a friend while she with Kempson
01:15:13
and then there's nothing. All
01:15:18
communication stopped on her birthday.
01:15:20
Her family can't get hold of her. She
01:15:21
doesn't get hold of her family. Friends
01:15:23
can't get hold of her. What's going on?
01:15:26
So it was definitely rip. Yeah. And so
01:15:29
it came on the Wednesday the Thursday we
01:15:31
start then we actually cuz he had been
01:15:34
on space her Facebook page last one
01:15:37
comment and the Thursday afternoon he
01:15:39
comes in. Well we found him. He came in
01:15:42
and talk and of course he told the lie.
01:15:45
Um, not just one. Yeah. Where he said he
01:15:48
was working when he wasn't working. Um,
01:15:51
he did just everything. Everything he
01:15:52
said apart from his name was lie
01:15:54
basically. Yeah. So, so, so, so when you
01:15:56
meet David Melain,
01:15:58
um, what do you say to him? Do you do
01:16:00
are you honest and you say, "I've got to
01:16:02
say like it's not looking good or do you
01:16:04
do you try and keep things positive?"
01:16:06
And Well, you you have to you know, you
01:16:09
have to be honest because Yeah. And like
01:16:11
I said, look, we're hoping that maybe,
01:16:14
you know, there's some islands out here.
01:16:15
Maybe she's met someone just gone to an
01:16:17
island. I said, it's not likely cuz you
01:16:19
know your daughter, she hasn't been in
01:16:20
contact on her birthday. I said, that's
01:16:22
why we've got a big investigation team
01:16:24
and we're doing everything we can to
01:16:25
find. So I said, um, you know, there is
01:16:29
a worst case scenario. And he said to
01:16:31
me, he said, Scott, I've been on a plane
01:16:32
for 24
01:16:34
hours. Okay. So you know I met him then
01:16:38
and of course it's stressful for him and
01:16:40
we were his support. We had to wrap
01:16:42
ourselves around and support. His
01:16:43
brother came over the next day but of
01:16:46
course on the Sunday when we found Grace
01:16:48
and um then he flew home and then of
01:16:51
course we've gone across to the UK for
01:16:53
the funeral and that so met him and saw
01:16:54
him in his home environment and with his
01:16:56
family and but I'd never known him prior
01:17:00
to that all accounts a lovely guy. Yes,
01:17:03
he was a boss um businessman,
01:17:07
but then when it came for the
01:17:10
trial, he I just knew he wasn't right.
01:17:13
And I just it's the stress. There's no
01:17:15
doubt. Such a burden. Of course. And you
01:17:18
know, every day we're sitting during the
01:17:20
trial and they bring up the rough sex
01:17:22
defense and Jillian sitting beside me.
01:17:24
She's sobbing, shaking, crying. And um
01:17:28
they had to listen to that, had to go
01:17:29
through it. And yet we' done all the
01:17:31
prep we could. And I remember on the
01:17:32
Sunday they write on Saturday, Charles
01:17:34
Trolls Town Monday. On the Sunday I had
01:17:36
them office and I was going through all
01:17:37
the evidence and of course one of the
01:17:39
things I had to show them was the CCTV
01:17:42
showing Kempson and Grace going up in
01:17:45
the lift and then see Grace walk out and
01:17:46
that's the last time you see Grace alive
01:17:49
and of course Till was natural it. So,
01:17:53
it was really tough, you know, and um
01:17:56
you trying to be strong, but it does get
01:17:58
emotional as well. And you then go
01:18:02
through the trial and every day to
01:18:04
listen, hear, and yeah, you just And I
01:18:07
just knew
01:18:08
David just wasn't the same person I'd
01:18:11
met the year before. How could you be?
01:18:13
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. And then you
01:18:18
know basically soon as they got back
01:18:21
from a trial which the verdict came out
01:18:23
on the Friday they flew back on the
01:18:25
Saturday
01:18:27
um he goes gets tested he's found cancer
01:18:30
and at one stage they thought come right
01:18:32
and I spoke to him 3 weeks we passed
01:18:39
and all your media stuff around this um
01:18:41
yes I've watched a heap heap of footage
01:18:43
the last couple of days there was the um
01:18:45
yeah the media briefing after the
01:18:46
suitcase was found um after the verdict
01:18:48
comes out there's um the melaines and
01:18:51
you standing on their shoulder just
01:18:52
outside the court. How
01:18:54
um yeah how do you not break down? It's
01:18:58
tough. It is tough. um you know
01:19:01
inside you know on the exterior I try to
01:19:04
put on the brave wrong face but inside
01:19:06
you know you're feeling them you know
01:19:08
like and as I've said in the media you
01:19:10
know I'm a family man with children
01:19:12
around the same age and what they've had
01:19:15
to go through surreners but that's same
01:19:18
with a whole lot of other homicide you
01:19:21
know families of homicide you know and
01:19:24
I've talked before about one day on a
01:19:26
Christmas day having now of a homicide
01:19:29
victim the more tree to identify their
01:19:32
son on Christmas day. Yeah.
01:19:36
Yeah. That's just wrong. Just so sad for
01:19:39
them. And um so for me it doesn't matter
01:19:43
what the background is. It's a loved one
01:19:45
and we've got to work with that. We got
01:19:47
to support we've got to bring in victim
01:19:49
support and our victim support to our
01:19:51
homicide staff are well trained. They do
01:19:53
a fantastic job. Did did um David have
01:19:56
to identify the body like a formal
01:19:58
identification process or was he that
01:20:00
No, we did that through dental
01:20:06
exciting circumstances. So I had a
01:20:09
podcast earlier this year with Mark
01:20:10
Longley. I don't know if you've had any.
01:20:12
Yeah. Um and it's almost like the Maines
01:20:15
and in reverse. He was in New Zealand.
01:20:17
His daughter's in the UK. He had to fly
01:20:18
over there. And um yeah, one thing we
01:20:21
talked about is Yeah. He was like 20 I
01:20:23
think it was 2011 or 2012 when his
01:20:25
daughter's murderer um was incarcerated
01:20:28
and he was like good I don't have to
01:20:30
think about this for at least 17 years
01:20:31
and he sitting here now in 2025 with me
01:20:34
he's like that date's coming up
01:20:36
alarmingly quickly and it's like another
01:20:38
trauma that he has to deal with again.
01:20:39
Yep. It's [ __ ] eh? It is. It is. And uh
01:20:43
yeah, it was interesting. During the
01:20:45
Grace M investigation, I had families of
01:20:49
homicide victims of cases I'd run and
01:20:52
been involved in who sent me, sent
01:20:54
letters, support.
01:20:56
[Music]
01:20:58
Um before Grace went missing, did you
01:21:01
did you know anything of Jesse Kempson?
01:21:03
No. Was he? No, I didn't at all. No.
01:21:05
who's on the police rate but just not
01:21:07
your personal Yeah. Yeah. Um and someone
01:21:11
who's um articulate or well presented
01:21:14
like wearing a a waist coat. Do do you
01:21:16
naturally treat them better or sort of
01:21:18
presume innocence even if it's a bias?
01:21:20
Well, at that stage we didn't know.
01:21:24
He just happened to be the last person
01:21:26
to comment on her Facebook page. So, we
01:21:28
didn't know his involvement. And of
01:21:31
course, the circumstances us finding him
01:21:34
was interesting. and that would
01:21:37
establish he limit the city life hotel.
01:21:39
We'd seen him in the morning and he had
01:21:41
agreed that after work he would come to
01:21:44
police station after
01:21:46
4:00 and so because city life we're just
01:21:51
after the city life to do some inquiries
01:21:53
and it was early afternoon
01:21:56
1:00 and he walked
01:21:59
past and one of the cons says oh there
01:22:02
he is
01:22:03
there and of course when he looked in
01:22:06
and he sees the detectives there and of
01:22:07
course they're in
01:22:09
piece. Yeah. Saba bullet or bass which
01:22:13
is the body armor. And uh he sees soon
01:22:17
as he sees him he turns his head away
01:22:18
turns around and walks walked back to
01:22:20
Queen
01:22:21
Street. Concier says oh there he goes
01:22:23
there. So they go and start had to run
01:22:25
to catch him. and they get around to
01:22:26
Queens and he's gone and can't find he'd
01:22:28
gone down um the steps of a shop and
01:22:32
stood behind a
01:22:35
um yeah display cabinet so he couldn't
01:22:39
be seen but they found him and he said
01:22:42
oh no I was just in here looking for
01:22:45
and he came back he came back station
01:22:48
and uh so that was well hang that and
01:22:51
then of course during that
01:22:52
interview he he
01:22:55
head. You know, yes, we met. We went up
01:22:58
to um Sky City, Andy's Burger Bar, and
01:23:02
we left. I crossed the road, went down
01:23:04
to Victoria Street to Queen Street, end
01:23:06
up in a
01:23:07
bar, back home, and she just wandered
01:23:10
off back to her backpacks I never saw
01:23:13
again. And so that's what we had. And we
01:23:16
had no other evidence to disprove that.
01:23:19
Uh and of course CCTV is a huge
01:23:22
component nowadays particularly in the
01:23:24
big cities and so we had a team on that
01:23:27
and then one of the interesting things
01:23:29
at City Life Hotel there 14 cameras at
01:23:31
Sea Life Hotel. There are seven that we
01:23:33
identified as key to what we needed to
01:23:35
be looking at but their system at the
01:23:38
time was that you could only look at one
01:23:40
camera at a time. So, if you wanted to
01:23:42
watch eight hours, it's going to take 56
01:23:44
hours. And we You just don't have the
01:23:48
time, do you? Well, no, but then I'm
01:23:51
sorry, I had to say this. You cannot
01:23:54
pass forward because we could not afford
01:23:56
to miss anything. So, they had to watch
01:23:57
it second by second, minute by minute,
01:23:59
out. Uh but one day they picked up one
01:24:02
of the cameras and they actually by that
01:24:05
stage we had during his interview and he
01:24:09
said yeah he didn't wake up till 9 or 10
01:24:11
in the morning and they found CCTV of
01:24:14
him going out at 8:00 in the morning. So
01:24:17
when we went back with him to
01:24:19
investigate you and settled a detective
01:24:22
put that to him and had the photo in the
01:24:24
lift. Is that you? Yep. Is that the
01:24:26
lift? Yep. Uh this is 8:15. Oh yeah,
01:24:30
that's right. Before he said he said
01:24:31
just confirming you said you sort of
01:24:33
didn't wake up till 9 or 10. Yeah. This
01:24:36
is 8:00 in the morning. This is you. So
01:24:41
yeah. And from there it was well okay
01:24:43
now we're right on to it. We've got
01:24:45
something here which work on. So we did
01:24:47
a search excuse that night at his
01:24:49
apartment. Um and of course then it just
01:24:52
rolled from there. We found that follow
01:24:54
the Friday night we did the luminal
01:24:55
testing and so Saturday morning when I
01:24:57
come to work there's a photography photo
01:25:00
section did a great job they had a photo
01:25:01
book it all ready for me they've been up
01:25:03
all night and
01:25:05
um yeah you can see the luminal and we
01:25:09
see all the blood around yeah we knew
01:25:13
were and of course David's here we
01:25:16
breeding him on a Friday afternoon he'd
01:25:17
been sent media conference with me and
01:25:21
done a media conference on the
01:25:22
afternoon. It's Yeah, it's just how it
01:25:25
happened with, you know, we'd had staff
01:25:28
out of the way. By that time, our
01:25:30
technology experts had said his phone
01:25:32
had been pulling the taceries. So, we
01:25:34
had our staff out there
01:25:37
and then he in his interview the second
01:25:40
time cuz we brought him in on the
01:25:41
Saturday and one of the things I was
01:25:42
doing when because I'd spoken to the
01:25:44
crown in the morning. I've been to the
01:25:46
scene, had a look myself, spoke to the
01:25:48
crown the morning and we agreed
01:25:49
circumstantially he had sufficient
01:25:50
evidence to charge. So, we're going to
01:25:52
bring him back and while he's been
01:25:56
interviewed, of course, I don't watch
01:25:57
these interviews. I have other things.
01:25:58
Sometimes I do
01:26:00
media, sometimes you other
01:26:02
administrative stuff. Um, but I had the
01:26:06
head of search and rescue and we were
01:26:08
talking about the way tack as we know
01:26:10
there's been other bodies found out
01:26:11
there and he just said, "Look, it's got
01:26:13
to be somewhere where there's a layby or
01:26:16
a car park because you can't just park
01:26:19
on C drive because we know it's windy.
01:26:21
narrow. So I'm thinking like this and
01:26:23
one side of the road there's houses.
01:26:25
Yes, there's bush in that and you know
01:26:27
covers the houses on the other side it's
01:26:29
just bush. So case it's going to be the
01:26:31
other side of the road. And then during
01:26:32
the interview, the second interview of
01:26:34
course rough sex defense says everything
01:26:38
which I was saying was self serving and
01:26:41
he actually
01:26:44
indicated where described where and we
01:26:47
weren't far from that location and we
01:26:49
went there and yeah there there was that
01:26:51
grave. So yeah and we just kicked in
01:26:54
from there.
01:26:57
Yes. That was probably the most um I
01:27:00
suppose memorable if that's the word um
01:27:02
like media briefing that you did. So you
01:27:04
you went to site the body and then you
01:27:07
face the media and um you it seemed like
01:27:10
you were like getting emotional towards
01:27:11
the end. What what's what's the time
01:27:13
between you um citing Grace Main in in
01:27:16
in a suitcase and then fronting the
01:27:18
media? So it was interesting that day
01:27:20
because you know as I say the media
01:27:23
intensity was huge as I had two
01:27:25
full-time media people because there was
01:27:27
just so many barrage questions media
01:27:29
from UK New Zealand and of course within
01:27:32
the media you know the New Zealand
01:27:34
bosses were saying to their staff don't
01:27:36
let the Brits get a scoop type scenario.
01:27:39
The Brits were wanting to get a scoop.
01:27:41
Um it was it was a frenzy within the
01:27:43
media itself let alone from a police
01:27:46
perspective.
01:27:48
So I' taken the pathologist out there
01:27:52
Scenic Drive around lunchtime because
01:27:54
you know we thought it was going to be
01:27:54
early afternoon and there's a lot of
01:27:56
media I had to close Scenic Drive for
01:27:58
the safety of the staff cuz they're
01:27:59
working side the road. Uh so Peters in
01:28:03
and of course the media down so put a
01:28:05
barrier across so that the media could
01:28:07
come up so they could see get the shots
01:28:09
in the distance cuz I I understand the
01:28:11
media you know I've always tried to work
01:28:13
with the media when it's appropriate and
01:28:17
um and then we sort of said oh look
01:28:20
we'll do a stand I'll do a stand at 4:00
01:28:22
and knowing that our New Zealand media
01:28:25
have to prepare for the six news the TV
01:28:27
media so it did editing stuff like that
01:28:30
So, well, it took longer to get the
01:28:34
suitcase out than we had anticipated.
01:28:37
And of course, then the medium get a bit
01:28:39
anty, oh gosh. And uh yeah, and then we
01:28:42
get it out. We had an X-ray machine
01:28:44
there. I had the pathologist there unzip
01:28:46
and you can see and open it right up,
01:28:48
but you can see this body in there and
01:28:50
we just knew it was crazy. So, they had
01:28:51
to get a message over the lane. Um and
01:28:54
so you go from once sort of here with
01:28:58
the staff um and Grace making sure we
01:29:02
get a message to David Melain. My media
01:29:05
person said say this. So within 5
01:29:06
minutes cuz we had got hold of David
01:29:09
within 5 minutes I was standing in front
01:29:11
of press. Now it hadn't been a long
01:29:13
investigation. had only been four days,
01:29:16
but we'd worked some long hours and so
01:29:19
and it had been emotional, you know,
01:29:20
because the case was it was getting
01:29:23
sadder and sadder every day. And it's
01:29:24
like for me being in the media telling
01:29:27
this crime novel that is getting sadder
01:29:29
and sadder and so everybody's missing,
01:29:32
everybody's grouped. Um, and ultimately
01:29:36
the worst case scenario is there. And so
01:29:39
within 5 minutes of his grace, they
01:29:42
would have been told he stand in front
01:29:44
of international and no prep like at
01:29:47
all. You know, every time I'd gone out
01:29:49
to do a media release for that. And on
01:29:52
with
01:29:53
most media stuff, you know, sit with the
01:29:55
media team half an hour before you go
01:29:57
out that up. You do your presentation,
01:29:59
they ask you questions. So you get in
01:30:01
the zone and you go out. And I've done
01:30:03
that with the Graces case with a
01:30:04
different
01:30:05
media except this one. There's no time
01:30:08
to prep and you have to go out and and
01:30:10
it is sad because you know we have found
01:30:13
it which is yeah it is great on one hand
01:30:16
because at least family get to have
01:30:18
great but you know now I've got this
01:30:21
case and course we're charged against
01:30:23
not the
01:30:24
murder and yeah it was tough holding
01:30:28
back and then I got the question how the
01:30:32
family
01:30:33
feel how do you think family feel you
01:30:35
know I have a daughter and you know, in
01:30:38
the 20s and it just came out. It wasn't
01:30:40
planned. It wasn't prepared. It was
01:30:42
just And it just Yeah, it gets you. You
01:30:46
looked like you were um on the cusp of
01:30:48
crying at that point. Yeah. I was having
01:30:49
to hold it together. Yeah. Yeah. Just
01:30:52
Yeah. accumulation of long days and just
01:30:55
the moment. It was just tiredness. It
01:30:56
was the stress. It was the buildup. It
01:30:58
was Yeah. It was, you know, there's
01:31:00
truckload of media sitting there in
01:31:02
front of you. And um Yeah. And then when
01:31:07
is it that you find out about the you
01:31:08
know you said it gets grimmer and
01:31:10
grimmer and it got even grimmer still
01:31:11
like when when do you find out about um
01:31:13
yeah the nude photos on his phone
01:31:15
googling how to you know get rid of a
01:31:17
body and the white hackeries all the all
01:31:18
the other unpleasant stuff that came
01:31:20
afterwards. So that comes in afterwards,
01:31:21
you know, because obviously
01:31:22
investigation, we've only been going for
01:31:24
4 days. We can only do so much some
01:31:26
CCTV.
01:31:27
Uh but then getting into the technology
01:31:30
world, getting into your phones and
01:31:32
stuff like that was, you know, it took a
01:31:34
bit of time, but it came back came out
01:31:37
and of course what he had done, you
01:31:39
know, he goes on, he'd organized a
01:31:40
tender date, he'd taken photos, he'd,
01:31:44
you know, searched Googled certain porn
01:31:47
sites. He Yeah. say it's hot as fire.
01:31:51
Yeah. Yeah. Especially eating birds like
01:31:53
tacker rangers. Yeah. All that sort of
01:31:56
stuff. And Yeah. And then and then he
01:31:59
actually goes out on a tin day on that
01:32:01
Sunday and Grace is lying dead in his
01:32:03
room.
01:32:04
Yeah. He obviously thought about he went
01:32:06
he bought the suitcase.
01:32:10
Um and the times that you've had to be
01:32:12
in his presence, are you in like
01:32:13
disdain? Yeah. Well, I don't have to be.
01:32:16
I you know like it's important as a DI
01:32:18
sort of like they call them senior
01:32:19
investigating officers now that I sit up
01:32:22
and I keep objective you know because I
01:32:25
have to make decision be decision maker
01:32:27
so you have to keep that objectivity so
01:32:29
it's no good me getting involved in an
01:32:31
interview because I'll start losing my
01:32:33
objectivity so I didn't actually see
01:32:35
that interview because on that Saturday
01:32:37
because I actually I was doing a press
01:32:40
release you know and uh when that
01:32:43
interview was taking place not that I
01:32:45
told the media at top. But yeah,
01:32:50
um when you first this comes this comes
01:32:52
I guess much later. Um when you first
01:32:55
learn about the defense case like are
01:32:56
you furious?
01:32:59
No. Well, I have to say okay this
01:33:01
investigator um the rough sex defense
01:33:04
was raised in his second interview.
01:33:06
something. Okay, we're going to have to
01:33:07
deal with this. And that's part of the
01:33:10
reason we go to the UK, make those
01:33:12
inquiries around sex. And yeah, I think
01:33:15
it was important because it meant that
01:33:17
when it came to trial, we went
01:33:19
blindsided. You know, like Grace is 21,
01:33:22
22 years old. She's an adult. You can do
01:33:25
what you like. And that shouldn't impact
01:33:28
on it just, you know, some of the lies
01:33:30
Kempson said around the rough sex. I
01:33:32
didn't know what it was. some about, you
01:33:35
know, 50 shades. Yet we had through the
01:33:38
investigation because it went on for a
01:33:40
number of months afterwards, we
01:33:42
identified people who he had rough sex
01:33:45
with
01:33:46
consensually. So he knew what it was.
01:33:50
Yeah. Yeah. One thing in the trial that
01:33:52
struck out to me was just how I think it
01:33:53
was from one of the pathologists like
01:33:54
how long you have to apply pressure
01:33:56
before someone passes out or you loses
01:34:00
consciousness. It's a very very long
01:34:02
time. Yeah. It was uh couple of the
01:34:04
range. One said 7 to 10 minutes, one
01:34:06
said 5 to 10 minutes. But it was
01:34:08
constant pressure so that you don't
01:34:10
start and then stop because when you
01:34:13
start again the clock starts again. So
01:34:15
it has to be constant serious pressure
01:34:18
for 5 to 10
01:34:21
minutes and you know Yeah. Come on. You
01:34:25
know, common sense. 5 to 10 minutes. And
01:34:27
he said that he was intoxicated and he'd
01:34:30
gone and have a shower afterwards. He
01:34:32
thought she'd got up and left. He would
01:34:33
have tripped over her sh.
01:34:36
Do Do defense lawyers piss you off? No,
01:34:38
they got a job to do. I understand that.
01:34:40
I don't I get on fine with the defense
01:34:42
lawyers. Um, you know, I don't Yeah, it
01:34:46
it's it can be frustrating. It's
01:34:47
difficult when you're sitting with the
01:34:48
family, but that's their job. You
01:34:51
Everybody has a job to do and that's
01:34:53
part of the system. And and it and I try
01:34:56
and tell my staff it's like sometimes
01:34:58
sentencing people go, "Oh, they can get
01:34:59
a long enough sentence and stuff like
01:35:00
that." Our job is to do a thorough
01:35:04
investigation, good investigation, put
01:35:05
together a good pro prosecution case to
01:35:08
work with the crown to put a prosecution
01:35:10
case and draw to the jury. The outcome
01:35:14
is up to the jury sentencing. Yes, we
01:35:16
get victim impact statements and stuff
01:35:17
like that. But it's up to the judge.
01:35:19
Now, if I try and tell you you're going
01:35:21
to get focused and lose that, you might
01:35:23
not work here
01:35:25
because you know you're worrying about
01:35:27
something out of your control.
01:35:30
Yeah, it's a great way of looking at it.
01:35:31
And there there's that saying that
01:35:32
everyone um is entitled to a fair trial,
01:35:35
which which they are, but it feels like
01:35:36
Grace didn't necessarily get a fair
01:35:37
trial in this case. Well, well, that's
01:35:39
the thing. And I and I have publicly
01:35:41
said that, you know, the rough sex
01:35:43
defense basically just revictimize Grace
01:35:45
and she wasn't there to answer. And what
01:35:47
I tell people is
01:35:50
that there's no evidence that sex took
01:35:54
place.
01:35:56
He says it but we know he
01:35:57
lies. You know we have other people
01:36:00
saying oh grace wouldn't do
01:36:01
that you know like that you know have a
01:36:05
safe grace wouldn't do that and you know
01:36:09
and like something we had witness who
01:36:11
said they had been back to tender dates
01:36:13
back to kept and he flipped like J and
01:36:16
one of them managed I managed to get out
01:36:18
before anything happened.
01:36:21
Well, yeah. One of his former victims on
01:36:23
that documentary, The Lie, um she
01:36:25
reckons that um he would have flipped
01:36:27
out after Grace turned him down and that
01:36:29
would have been the But we'll never
01:36:30
know, won't we? We won't we won't know,
01:36:32
he says. Do you do you hear any any like
01:36:35
anecdotal feedback or stories about how
01:36:37
he's coping in jail and you get this
01:36:39
feedback with a sense of glee or you
01:36:41
just have no interest in it? Look, he's
01:36:44
there. He he got a minimum of 17 years
01:36:46
nonprol then it doesn't mean you get out
01:36:48
after 17 years. Yeah. Um, I know Julie
01:36:51
Mlain won't say his name, you know,
01:36:54
because she says, "I'd rather use
01:36:56
Grace's name. That's who I love. That's
01:36:58
who I think of. That's who I miss."
01:37:01
So, the the the the trial for you, um,
01:37:04
obviously you had some work to do there,
01:37:06
but it seems like you were mainly there
01:37:07
as sort of like a cheerleader or
01:37:09
supporter of the family. Um, how Yeah.
01:37:12
How how is it for you? Must be wonderful
01:37:14
experience. But I've been through roles
01:37:15
before. I've done sort of that before.
01:37:18
Uh, you know, I had to give evidence
01:37:19
during the trial. So, you know, you've
01:37:21
got to get your head around it what's
01:37:23
going on in the trial and also just
01:37:24
making sure everything's telling and
01:37:26
working and but you got staff to do that
01:37:27
and they did a fantastic job.
01:37:30
And the wait for the verdict, how long
01:37:33
how long was that? Yeah. Uh, often
01:37:36
people put you like just amongst
01:37:38
ourselves just as a bit of back humor.
01:37:41
Okay. How long?
01:37:44
uh a day and a half, 2 days, 3 days, 4
01:37:47
hours, you know, like we just have a
01:37:49
little bit and I thought ah they're
01:37:51
going to come back on Saturday cuz this
01:37:52
is the Friday and of course they came
01:37:54
back Friday night. Short turnound
01:37:56
usually means well we were obviously
01:37:59
Yeah. Yeah. We Well,
01:38:01
sometime sometimes come back quick not
01:38:03
guilty. Yeah. Uh but yeah, in this case,
01:38:07
they went out just after lunch and they
01:38:11
were back by 5:00.
01:38:13
And
01:38:14
then um sense of relief. The sense of
01:38:17
relief, you know, that courtroom was
01:38:19
packed. You know, every day of trial,
01:38:22
courtroom is packed and there's a large
01:38:24
media contingent in there and cameras
01:38:27
are in there. And of course when the
01:38:30
verdict came out you know it's that
01:38:33
sense of relief obviously was emotional
01:38:36
for Jillian and David um you know some
01:38:39
of the public gallery were crying some
01:38:41
staff and tears you know a lot of the um
01:38:44
reporters were young females you know in
01:38:46
the media and you can see they were up
01:38:48
the jury some of the jury cry it was
01:38:50
very
01:38:53
emotional so while waiting for the
01:38:55
verdict are you are you with the messes
01:38:58
like sort of managing their expectations
01:39:00
saying look this could go either way cuz
01:39:03
you don't know. No, no, we don't know.
01:39:05
And yeah, I suppose you've been in
01:39:07
situations before where you know the the
01:39:09
wrong verdict has come out. Yeah,
01:39:11
there's been cases where we haven't got
01:39:13
the verdict we thought we should have
01:39:15
got. Um, and then you got to deal with
01:39:16
family. That's a different way to deal
01:39:19
with family. But it's that waiting is
01:39:22
stressful cuz you don't know what is the
01:39:25
verdict and you know you've got to
01:39:27
support the family and uh you know I
01:39:29
know we had two other sex trials coming
01:39:32
up as a result of our investigation
01:39:35
um against Kempson and one of the things
01:39:37
Jillian did was fantastic was at
01:39:40
different times we brought the
01:39:41
complaintants into court just to meet
01:39:43
because they carried this huge guilt
01:39:46
that if they had
01:39:47
reported Grace would still be
01:39:50
And so went arranged and asked Jill if
01:39:54
she'd like to talk to them, meet them.
01:39:56
And she did. And she said, "You didn't
01:39:58
do anything wrong. You didn't do
01:40:00
anything, you know, like he did it. He's
01:40:04
the ones accountable. He's the don't
01:40:06
feel bad." And that was really good and
01:40:09
reassuring for them. Yeah. And so for a
01:40:11
mother in that situation, you know, to
01:40:14
her situation to do that just showed how
01:40:16
lovely she she's incredible. Right.
01:40:18
Yeah. Um yeah, the relationship you had
01:40:22
with um yeah um the parents was seemed
01:40:24
like really close. Have there been other
01:40:26
homicides like this or was this one
01:40:28
different for some reason? Well, I think
01:40:30
this one was different because they were
01:40:33
you know Grace was from the UK. She
01:40:34
wasn't from New Zealand. They don't have
01:40:36
the port family here and you know David
01:40:39
FL investigation. Her brother arrived
01:40:42
today. So later we looked after that
01:40:44
there um and he was still here when we
01:40:46
had the um individuals who's at the
01:40:50
one sky city and then you know they came
01:40:54
back for the trial and once again it's
01:40:56
just the two of them and family are all
01:40:59
back home friends their support so you
01:41:02
have you have to support them you know I
01:41:04
do you know speak to a lot of and with
01:41:08
the families and trials um in New
01:41:10
Zealand and they're all New Zealand
01:41:11
based and you'll there's a number of
01:41:13
there I know with them to support and
01:41:15
that's great that's all they need but
01:41:17
I'll always be there to talk and they
01:41:19
can talk me and
01:41:22
just so so then so after that verdict
01:41:24
there's the um the media briefing
01:41:26
outside where um yeah the are both
01:41:30
sobbing and you're you're in the
01:41:31
background looking um stoic like you do
01:41:33
what what happens after that you go do
01:41:36
you go and grab something to eat you
01:41:38
just give them a ride back to their
01:41:39
hotel what happens so after the verdict
01:41:41
Yeah, we went back. We just quickly
01:41:44
debriefed.
01:41:46
Um, we then because David then arranged
01:41:49
to fly home the next
01:41:50
day. So, nothing else to do. No. Well,
01:41:54
why? Yeah. The family, they had their
01:41:56
sons back home, you know. Yeah. So, they
01:41:58
need to go home. And so, we went out for
01:42:02
dinner. The crown, the police staff,
01:42:04
close police staff involved in the lanes
01:42:06
um at the hotel had dinner. And then the
01:42:08
next morning, that Saturday morning,
01:42:10
myself and the picked them up and took
01:42:12
them to the airport and it was really it
01:42:14
was quite sad because the airport had
01:42:17
their flag at half
01:42:19
mass and um but that was not as
01:42:23
noticeable. And one thing that I I will
01:42:26
always thank you know airport for was
01:42:31
they
01:42:32
allowed myself and the family as officer
01:42:35
to walk in the lanes onto the plane. So
01:42:38
we had all that security and we could
01:42:41
see them get in their seats and say
01:42:43
goodbye. I thought wow I couldn't
01:42:46
believe we were to do that. But but that
01:42:48
was important. I'm getting emotional
01:42:51
hearing this just like Yeah. Like um
01:42:54
tears of of gratitude. Do
01:42:57
um when do you cry about this? Like do
01:43:00
you on the car on the way back to your
01:43:02
house? Are you are you having a cry?
01:43:04
Like are there private moments? Yeah,
01:43:07
there's a private moment sometimes when
01:43:11
um something comes up around grace or
01:43:14
Yeah. the lie, you know, or people talk
01:43:17
to me. Some people come and talk to me.
01:43:20
um you know just straight out of the
01:43:21
blue and like yeah you know and like
01:43:23
when they the gratitude they show you
01:43:26
know and uh yeah I was just one of the
01:43:28
team team and yeah but I do have
01:43:33
emotional moments but it's in private
01:43:35
yeah so um when I think of Grace Melain
01:43:39
um and this is probably the same with
01:43:41
most people watching this or listening
01:43:42
to this I I think of um the photos that
01:43:44
were shared. So there's one of her it
01:43:46
looks like she's wearing activew wear
01:43:47
with a baseball cap on. There's another
01:43:49
one. Hey, from the Bay of Honors, right?
01:43:51
Oh, was it? Yep. And another one of her
01:43:52
with her um graduation cap and gown on.
01:43:55
And both of them, one thing in common,
01:43:57
massive beaming smile. When when Yeah.
01:44:00
When you think of Grace Main, Yeah. What
01:44:02
do you see?
01:44:04
I just see this happy,
01:44:07
lovely girl who is so loved by her
01:44:10
family. You know, they were such a
01:44:12
tight-knit loving family. It was Yeah.
01:44:14
And like we haven't talked about it, but
01:44:16
you know when David was over here for
01:44:17
the investigation, Jillian, she had had
01:44:20
cancer and she had had she was
01:44:21
undergoing chemotherapy treatment. So
01:44:23
David's
01:44:25
here dealing with his daughter, the only
01:44:28
daughter missing and circumstances
01:44:30
aren't looking good. He at the love of
01:44:33
his life, his wife Jillian is at home
01:44:36
undergoing chemotherapy and he's having
01:44:38
feel that. That's why we had to really
01:44:40
wrap herself up because yeah, we just
01:44:44
how do you deal? And then you look at
01:44:46
Jillian now, you know, she's had to keep
01:44:49
living the fact that Grace has been
01:44:52
murdered. But then David dies and it was
01:44:55
the stress,
01:44:57
cancer. So she now has two, she has two
01:45:00
sons and grandchildren, but two of
01:45:04
Pope's family immediate family are gone.
01:45:06
And as she says, she'll never have them
01:45:08
back. As much as she wants, she will
01:45:09
never have them back, but she'll never
01:45:11
stop loving.
01:45:16
Yeah. Yeah. And in the way she lost her
01:45:19
daughter as well,
01:45:22
thanks for sharing that stuff. Yeah.
01:45:24
Yeah, it is. It is tough. And there's,
01:45:26
you know, but but I sort of see it I see
01:45:29
the sadness in a lot of family's eyes,
01:45:33
you know, at the homicide trolls. Yeah.
01:45:37
When did you last speak to Jillian? Are
01:45:39
you still in touch to your message or?
01:45:40
Yeah. Yeah, we we touch quite regularly
01:45:42
actually. Uh like last year I was over
01:45:44
in Europe and I went over to the uh
01:45:47
London and I stayed with Jillian for
01:45:49
three three four nights and uh which was
01:45:52
really good and it was good to catch up
01:45:54
and catch up with her family and their
01:45:57
local in Essics the local um pub you
01:46:01
know there's a someone who raised some
01:46:03
money and put a big oak table of chairs
01:46:06
and cheers once David won races and and
01:46:10
then you see what Julian and her niece
01:46:13
Hannah. So, Grace's cousin Hannah have
01:46:15
done around the love grace campaign and
01:46:18
they got me to work in the garage
01:46:21
packing handbags one day which is fine.
01:46:22
It's you know like it's such a good
01:46:25
cause and in New Zealand now we have
01:46:27
this love campaign and the thousands of
01:46:30
handbags. So the women who are subject
01:46:33
to domestic violence and have to get out
01:46:35
with nothing, they had this hand. And
01:46:37
some of the letters that Jillian had
01:46:39
shown me that they get, you know, really
01:46:42
touching sometimes these women just,
01:46:45
you know, had nothing and
01:46:48
yeah, I was going to ask you at some
01:46:50
point what like what joy have you got
01:46:52
out of this job, but um I feel like it's
01:46:54
a most redundant question because I can
01:46:56
probably answer it now. It seems like
01:46:57
it's the the connections you form with
01:46:58
people at their potentially the most
01:47:01
terrifying or the lowest point in their
01:47:02
lives. Yeah, it's part of it. Yeah, that
01:47:05
is part of it. But I think it's the what
01:47:08
you do for the community. What do you do
01:47:10
for our
01:47:11
victims victims? What you do for the
01:47:14
community and it's all police and you
01:47:17
know we're a good team and you know I
01:47:20
look back on my career and we gosh so
01:47:23
proud of that. And like as an example
01:47:26
during co I was contacted by a woman who
01:47:30
when she was 9 years old
01:47:33
was sexually abused at home. I was a
01:47:37
detective sergeant on the child abuse
01:47:39
team
01:47:41
and during co she had the courage to go
01:47:44
and get it was told you the family back
01:47:46
then the now but get her file and of
01:47:49
course and she got to me and said your
01:47:52
name's all through it you believed me
01:47:54
you saved
01:47:57
me so I've met that you know she's only
01:48:00
9 years old at the time I've met her and
01:48:02
her husband and we catch up and um you
01:48:07
like one of the yeah as I've mentioned
01:48:11
before you know the sadness as the
01:48:13
result of child sexual abuse can be you
01:48:18
alcoholism, drug addiction and all that
01:48:21
and you know I see her and she's come
01:48:23
through at the other end and we catch up
01:48:26
and I just think gosh you know and I
01:48:28
told myself you know what you do now
01:48:32
have a huge impact later these
01:48:36
And and it does and I that's that is
01:48:38
what and I look back on my career I go I
01:48:42
have helped someone come through life
01:48:45
out of tragic
01:48:48
situation that make me
01:48:51
yeah and often police will never know
01:48:53
the impact they have
01:48:57
this has been a we've been going an hour
01:48:59
48 I haven't even got the the Instagram
01:49:01
questions it's been a big day for you
01:49:03
some bad news this morning Yeah. Um,
01:49:05
yeah. How are you going for time? Yeah.
01:49:07
No, I'm fine. You okay? Yeah, I'm fine.
01:49:09
Yeah. Um, you can leave it anytime you
01:49:11
run. No, no. I got to go home and run,
01:49:13
go do some exercise. No, no, no. Yeah.
01:49:16
You're not Are you doing You're doing
01:49:17
much running. You said before you run. I
01:49:19
don't run as far now. I just I've just
01:49:21
changed my whole exercise routine. And
01:49:23
of course, at the moment, because I've
01:49:24
had to go on to some hormone treatment
01:49:26
or do all the um radiation and that
01:49:29
makes you a bit more tired and so of I
01:49:32
don't have the same energy. And I think
01:49:34
I should be faster than this, but I'm
01:49:36
not. But I'm not. Z age, you know. Yeah,
01:49:39
that's what No one escapes it. I know.
01:49:41
Um, yeah. Has has fitness been like a
01:49:44
big part of your sort of mental health
01:49:46
strategy? Absolutely. Physically fit,
01:49:49
mentally fit. That's what I've always
01:49:50
believed in and that's what I've always
01:49:52
adhereed to and I've just, you know,
01:49:54
sometimes during cases I just want to go
01:49:56
for a run because it clears my head, you
01:49:58
know, sweats out all the impurities and
01:50:00
I can think about and I just, yeah, I
01:50:02
feel so much better.
01:50:04
What about alcohol? Did you ever lean
01:50:06
into alcohol? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.
01:50:08
When you were younger. Yeah. When you're
01:50:09
younger. Not not I don't think I ever
01:50:11
leaned as a coping mechanism, you know,
01:50:13
cuz I had my children had them when I
01:50:14
was young and they grew up and grew up
01:50:16
with my children. We used to go running
01:50:17
together, you know, like one of my sons
01:50:19
and I played the same senior men's
01:50:22
football team together, you know, which
01:50:23
is great. So, yeah. Look, I drank and
01:50:26
him drink, but I don't, you know, say
01:50:28
it's co mechanism. You know, I because
01:50:31
of my health issues, I don't certainly
01:50:33
don't drink I drink 0% beer. Yeah. Yeah.
01:50:37
But who who do you who do you unpack
01:50:39
stuff with? Is it just like internally
01:50:40
with work mainly? Well, I have my part I
01:50:42
have my partner. Yeah. And you know, we
01:50:44
can talk and um your partner as in your
01:50:46
your life partner or a work partner?
01:50:48
Well, no. No. My my life partner. Oh,
01:50:50
yeah. But but you can't there's things
01:50:51
that you just can't really you can't
01:50:53
really share, can you? Or Yeah. No.
01:50:55
Well, you know, I can talk about just
01:50:58
had a day like you know, like sometimes
01:50:59
it's just you go bang bang bang bang. It
01:51:01
might not be investigation. There's a
01:51:03
whole lot of emails come in. You got to
01:51:04
do stuff and you know, trying to mediate
01:51:07
or negotiate or find out stuff. Um but
01:51:11
yeah, like like I just talk and just get
01:51:13
out and just we do exercise together.
01:51:15
Yeah. Like like one of the things I
01:51:17
really like doing because I live close
01:51:18
to the beach is kayak
01:51:19
fishing. And what do you like about it?
01:51:22
Is it the solitude or it's everything?
01:51:24
It's just you go there's a bit of
01:51:26
exercise to get out there. Uh and then
01:51:31
you know I generally like cuz I'm an
01:51:32
early riser get out before sunrise and
01:51:36
so you know like about a month ago I was
01:51:38
on the water and where there's the blood
01:51:40
moon big full moon and so you have the
01:51:42
moonlight on the water on one side and
01:51:44
on the other side the sun's not up but
01:51:46
it's coming up and you can see the
01:51:48
orange haze on it. It's just beautiful.
01:51:50
and then catch fish on, you know, catch
01:51:52
some snapper and you sit out there and
01:51:55
you're at one with nature. It's it's
01:51:57
peaceful. It's just you can catch fish
01:51:59
and then go in and Yeah, it's I I really
01:52:02
enjoy it.
01:52:05
Um yeah, how do you not have a huge
01:52:06
weight of all the all the stuff you've
01:52:08
seen and done? Like it's um there's some
01:52:10
really crunchy stuff e that you've
01:52:12
experienced. How do you sort of
01:52:13
compartmentalize that or Yeah. Well,
01:52:15
that's what I I try and
01:52:16
compartmentalize. So work is work, home
01:52:19
is home, families for family, sports for
01:52:21
sport. And you know there's there is you
01:52:24
know been to the psychologist there's
01:52:26
ways to cope and one of the things and
01:52:29
it you know it might not sound great but
01:52:32
you know you have a serious case there's
01:52:35
going to be another one. So don't you
01:52:38
know fall over this one cuz what about
01:52:40
the next one and then the next one and
01:52:43
unfortunately that is a work and you can
01:52:46
go from homicide to
01:52:49
homicide but you've got to you know this
01:52:52
is job is a file one day it's also going
01:52:55
to be filed but at the time we have a
01:52:57
job to do we have to be professional we
01:53:00
have to be thorough and you know we've
01:53:03
got to investigate
01:53:06
In in terms of retirement
01:53:09
when do I look that young that old?
01:53:11
Really? No. No. Is um like is there a
01:53:14
thing in the place where they sort of
01:53:15
kick you out at the 65 or they start
01:53:16
like pushing you towards No. No. Well,
01:53:19
when they used to have you you'd be able
01:53:20
to perf at 55 um because of the
01:53:23
government
01:53:24
superanuation public uh police
01:53:26
superanuation scheme. You can go on till
01:53:27
you ever but you know I've got to look
01:53:29
at the future and I've got to say I've
01:53:31
done most things in the police. I I
01:53:33
really enjoy the level I'm at because
01:53:36
I'm still operationally involved and uh
01:53:39
you know I've got staff get on well with
01:53:41
staff but you know life is like a ruler.
01:53:45
It's only so long and I've had some
01:53:48
health scares going through another one
01:53:50
now but um in terms of that ruler I'm
01:53:56
2/3 quarters of the way through it and
01:53:58
so what do I want to do? You know, I
01:54:00
there's bucket list things I'm looking
01:54:02
to do. Like I'm I am thinking I'm
01:54:06
convince you to follow the white at the
01:54:08
World Cup next year. Yeah. One more
01:54:12
football. Um yeah, I know a number of
01:54:14
the coaches after and Basley and all
01:54:17
those. And yeah, I want to travel a bit
01:54:20
more. Uh yeah, I've got my
01:54:23
grandchildren. I see them grow. How are
01:54:25
they now? How old are the grand? Oh,
01:54:26
what? I got
01:54:29
15, 14 in a couple weeks. Uh, 10, and
01:54:34
cool age. So, yeah. And and that's I've
01:54:37
still got others to come cuz some
01:54:40
children are married but haven't got
01:54:41
children yet. Hurry up. No, no, no, no.
01:54:46
All right. From Instagram, um, someone
01:54:48
wanted to know, uh, if you've seen the,
01:54:52
uh, TV show Adolescence. Yes, I have.
01:54:54
Netflix. Yeah. What what are your
01:54:55
thoughts towards that? Okay, so we have
01:54:58
our child exploitation team.
01:55:00
Uh we did a lot of online stuff. I'm
01:55:04
also involved my role is in Oakland City
01:55:09
as oversight of our national persons of
01:55:12
interest and so they some of the younger
01:55:16
ones there can get into that incill
01:55:18
stuff involuntary celibacy. Yes. Yeah.
01:55:22
um that and there's other groups that
01:55:24
come out out of that and
01:55:27
so it's very real and I'm aware
01:55:32
that you know some of that stuff has
01:55:36
occurred in New Zealand with teenagers.
01:55:40
Uh it's yeah it's not great and and it's
01:55:44
difficult for parents cuz how do you
01:55:45
know what your children are doing
01:55:46
online? And that's the one thing you
01:55:49
maybe we need to just be a little more
01:55:51
harder to know because there are some
01:55:53
manipulators out there across the
01:55:55
world who will manipulate your children
01:55:59
and you know or the
01:56:02
bullying. you take sexion, you know,
01:56:05
like initially people would take a
01:56:07
teenager take a photo of the naked photo
01:56:09
of themselves and send it to someone who
01:56:10
they thought was their age. It might
01:56:12
have been, you know, a 50-year-old
01:56:15
pedophile at the end or a relationship
01:56:18
breaks up and so that person breaks up,
01:56:20
I've got this photo, you you pay me
01:56:21
money, I'm going to send it to all your
01:56:23
friends. It creates stress. It's
01:56:26
horrendous. We've actually seen some
01:56:28
suicides as a result, you know, that
01:56:31
bullying.
01:56:32
So yeah, I think you know the
01:56:35
adolescence I think people parents watch
01:56:37
it and I' I've looked at a debate
01:56:39
whether uh parents would watch it with
01:56:42
their children or parents should just
01:56:43
watch it alone. You know some say they
01:56:46
should watch it alone. Some say watch it
01:56:47
with your children and talk to your
01:56:49
children because what you want you want
01:56:52
your children to be able to talk to you
01:56:53
about what's going on if they're bullied
01:56:55
or getting pressured to do something
01:56:57
because they want to climb a
01:56:59
hierarchal Yeah. system in there and to
01:57:02
do that you have to do something
01:57:03
different like say sextor tortion or
01:57:05
blackmail someone or yeah so yeah what
01:57:10
what what can be done is it is this a
01:57:12
job for um like parents to speak to
01:57:14
their kids when they're sort of
01:57:15
intermediate age or should the schools
01:57:17
be doing some programming around this
01:57:20
well I always believe that it starts
01:57:22
with the parent yes the school can
01:57:25
support but it does start with the
01:57:27
parent and you know dare I say it
01:57:30
there's a lot out there who uh have
01:57:34
difficult childhoods that don't have
01:57:37
parents a single parent or whatever. I
01:57:40
grew up never knowing my father, my
01:57:42
mother's sen mother until I was about 10
01:57:45
and stepfather came along and it wasn't
01:57:47
until my mother's dying of cancer
01:57:50
terminal and my daughter wanted to find
01:57:53
who's your father Dad I don't know never
01:57:56
met him and she did she should have been
01:57:59
a detective she did some digging around
01:58:01
yeah she did some digging around and
01:58:02
found him and yeah she ended up meeting
01:58:04
him and then I met him and then he
01:58:07
said basically He said he didn't believe
01:58:10
he was my father and um that's it.
01:58:12
Walked away. But how was that? Was it
01:58:15
was
01:58:16
that Yeah. Although I'd gone through my
01:58:19
whole life not having a father. So I was
01:58:21
an only child. So I had no brothers and
01:58:23
sisters. My mother was from the UK. She
01:58:25
had no family here. Um so yeah, so
01:58:28
that's why sport was really important.
01:58:30
But I just accept I just accepted, okay,
01:58:33
you've never been in my life. You've
01:58:35
never shown any interest whatsoever in
01:58:37
me. And that's what you say. That's
01:58:38
fine. I've got my family up to Yeah.
01:58:41
It's not like you're missing anything,
01:58:42
but it's almost almost like double
01:58:44
abandonment in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Sucks.
01:58:46
Yeah. It's really shitty.
01:58:49
Um, when you retire, what will you miss
01:58:51
most and least about the job? Oh, what
01:58:54
will I miss most? Oh, I think it's the
01:58:58
companionship, the camaraderie, you
01:59:00
know, it's, you know, like So, it
01:59:02
doesn't matter what investigator,
01:59:03
whether it's homicidal, you know, major
01:59:05
case, you know, you work as a team. It's
01:59:07
that teamwork. I really like that. And
01:59:09
uh I've made some really good friends.
01:59:11
New Zealand police. Um so that's what I
01:59:14
miss. What won't I miss? Uh get up at
01:59:19
4:30 to get to work. No. Uh to be fair
01:59:24
and and the staff who listen to this are
01:59:25
going to laugh at this. I won't miss the
01:59:28
meetings cuz I meetings in my head. You
01:59:31
know, particularly if the meetings for
01:59:33
meeting sake. meters are good of a
01:59:34
value, but if I can get out of a
01:59:36
meeting, they know I'll get out. No one
01:59:39
loves a meeting. Is that a side of place
01:59:40
that most people would would be um
01:59:44
surprised by? Like just how much how
01:59:45
much BS and paperwork there is? Yeah, I
01:59:48
think and the higher the higher you
01:59:50
go rank wise, you the more meetings and
01:59:54
I talk about political [ __ ] you have
01:59:56
to deal with, but it's just Yeah. Yeah.
01:59:58
And that's why I enjoy where I'm at. M
02:00:00
um best and worst days on the job.
02:00:07
Uh the best days, you know, it can be
02:00:11
both getting a result for say a
02:00:15
long-term investigation, whether it be a
02:00:18
homicide, whether it be like the 1080 in
02:00:19
the milk powder. Um they're good plus
02:00:22
the guilty verdict or guilty plea, you
02:00:25
know, because then done your job. you
02:00:27
know you've done a thorough
02:00:28
investigation that they they are really
02:00:30
good days the worst days dare I say it
02:00:35
is hearing that a police
02:00:40
officer and take Matt Hunt for example
02:00:44
my daughter went to primary intermediary
02:00:46
school with him a lot of the people at
02:00:49
the football club knew him um particular
02:00:52
of our area actually been to my house to
02:00:54
play not that I knew that and so I know
02:00:57
and I know a lot of his close friends
02:00:59
and you know it just it doesn't matter
02:01:01
but it's really sad. It's just
02:01:04
gut-wrenching
02:01:07
and it's a reality of the the job you're
02:01:09
doing isn't it? It is. You're putting
02:01:11
yourself in harm's way on a daily basis.
02:01:13
Yeah. Um any regrets?
02:01:16
No. No regrets. No. Uh I recommend the
02:01:20
New Zealand police. I Yeah. my none of
02:01:22
my children joined the police. But for
02:01:25
me, yeah, still in the police 45 years,
02:01:28
like in a month's time and uh you calm
02:01:31
down. You haven't made it yet. Yeah, I
02:01:32
know. Uh but no, I've just th I just
02:01:36
enjoy giving back to the community. I
02:01:38
enjoy, you know, being successful, being
02:01:41
a leader, working with the staff,
02:01:43
developing the new staff.
02:01:46
from Instagram. Uh, do you take an
02:01:48
interest in cases that you're not
02:01:49
directly involved with, eg Pulking Horn,
02:01:52
Scott Watson?
02:01:54
Uh, it depends. Like obviously Pulking
02:01:56
Horn was run in Oakland City District,
02:01:57
so I had knowledge of that. Um, you
02:02:00
know, because I took the team that run
02:02:02
it and uh, so I'm
02:02:05
not into the weeds and the detail like I
02:02:08
would be in other cases. Uh the Scott
02:02:11
Watson I I the only reason I really took
02:02:14
a real interest was he had sailed past
02:02:17
Great Barrier Island and way back in 96.
02:02:19
I've been over there for missing woman
02:02:21
Nancy Hershey Fray and on the island two
02:02:24
weeks looking for her and
02:02:25
um yeah he had sailed past the
02:02:29
island. But to be fair so much going on
02:02:33
you at work in my own work world and
02:02:35
then my private life. Well, you know the
02:02:37
football club. Well, I've stood down
02:02:38
president now for the club. I didn't
02:02:40
realize how much time it took up. But
02:02:42
yeah, I'm wanting to get into with my
02:02:44
partner working with handing Shane back
02:02:46
doing more work to support the victims
02:02:50
of child sex. Yeah. Is there a time you
02:02:53
feared for your life?
02:02:56
Uh there was one
02:02:58
time when when I was in uniform was over
02:03:02
North Shore. We gone to domestic
02:03:05
hospital at a house and the guy started
02:03:08
up a chainsaw and came at us chainsaw
02:03:11
and that's where fight of flight kicks
02:03:14
in. Boy, I
02:03:15
ran. I ran. Uh yeah. So there was that.
02:03:20
But I have had a situation where I
02:03:22
didn't know at the time but been in
02:03:25
uniform we' stopped a car in the middle
02:03:27
of the night and it took off. We chased
02:03:29
it. It stopped in the back streets of
02:03:31
Andal. I get out on the passenger. I
02:03:33
walk up to the back passenger side of
02:03:36
the car and the car took off and
02:03:39
eventually car got stopped, caught and
02:03:41
the driver, the young guy said they were
02:03:43
going to rob a service station in the
02:03:44
middle of the night and had stopped. The
02:03:49
bender in the back of the car had a torn
02:03:50
off shotgun and he said, "I'm going to
02:03:53
shoot the pig when he walks up," which
02:03:54
was me. Um the young driver panicked and
02:03:57
took off. So you have to live with that.
02:04:00
Um, and you don't know that at that
02:04:02
time, but within a few hours found out
02:04:05
and I had a little baby son at the time.
02:04:09
And so that has an impact. You think,
02:04:11
gosh, what could it have been?
02:04:13
Do you tell your wife that
02:04:17
at the time? Yeah, it was in the news,
02:04:19
right? Okay. Jeez.
02:04:24
Yeah, that Yeah, for for the partners.
02:04:26
That's um yeah I've also before been in
02:04:29
a domestic situation the the males left
02:04:33
and gone to another dress. We've gone to
02:04:34
the address and through the a glass door
02:04:37
basically front door and you know knock
02:04:40
on the door and all you see and you can
02:04:41
see the shadow behind and he's got and
02:04:44
it's just sergeant. Yes, please put the
02:04:47
gun
02:04:48
down. But
02:04:51
yeah, how long does it take you to come
02:04:53
down after that? Uh, when you're young,
02:04:56
I don't think it takes as long as when
02:04:58
you're older. You older, you think about
02:04:59
things a lot more. But look, look, it's
02:05:01
it's there. It's happened. I know it's
02:05:03
happened. And that's why I feel for some
02:05:04
of the staff out on the street with what
02:05:06
goes on now. Yeah. Uh, what has been the
02:05:08
most rewarding moment in your police
02:05:10
career?
02:05:13
Gosh, there's a there's a lot. I
02:05:16
think when we have an award ceremony
02:05:21
and the
02:05:24
um Grace Millions investigation team got
02:05:27
an award and I got a commissioner's
02:05:29
commendation and it was also my 42nd
02:05:33
year anniversary and so you have this
02:05:36
big
02:05:39
um the race course um race course is
02:05:43
full place pack the commission M police
02:05:45
was there and when they called my name
02:05:48
out and I come up and the whole audience
02:05:51
stood up and
02:05:52
applauded. It was just yeah it was quite
02:05:55
emotional. Um but yeah I just oh gosh
02:05:59
like there's lots of others who've done
02:06:00
a lot of work in this job. I just happen
02:06:02
to have a public media profile. There's
02:06:05
others.
02:06:07
Do you do you have like a a pool room at
02:06:09
home or like a man cave or a I've got a
02:06:13
table to this table but do I put up
02:06:15
occasionally but yeah my kids say I've
02:06:19
got a shrine because you know we used to
02:06:21
have have an office then open plan so I
02:06:24
can't put all my photos and yeah stuff
02:06:26
up so I've got a little office which I
02:06:29
call it the shrine and all my photos
02:06:31
people from these college days and all
02:06:33
that. Yeah. How do you feel when you go
02:06:34
in there and see that stuff? Proud. Oh I
02:06:36
feel quite proud. Yeah, absolutely.
02:06:37
Yeah. How can you not? Yeah. Um, someone
02:06:40
wants to know, uh, cop shows on TV. Any
02:06:42
favorites and any resemblance to real
02:06:44
life? I don't really watch them. Yeah.
02:06:46
No, I like to watch sport on TV. Yeah.
02:06:48
Yeah. Yeah. I do I do watch um, you
02:06:52
know, I've got a case and it's been in
02:06:54
the media. Um, a cold case, Alicia
02:06:57
Riley, a little six-year-old girl who in
02:06:59
1980 was raped and murdered in a home in
02:07:01
Aendale. And we're working on that and
02:07:03
we're going down the genetic genealogy
02:07:05
path. So, I'd like to watch some of the
02:07:07
YouTube clips around genetic
02:07:10
gology. Do cold cases occupy much space
02:07:13
in your mind? Yeah. Yeah, I've got a
02:07:16
few. Yeah. Um suppose that's what you
02:07:19
doing. Simon Bose 1980 murdered in Bruce
02:07:21
Park. Do a bit of work on that. Yeah.
02:07:27
Yeah. But you're not you're not thinking
02:07:28
about that when you're out kayaking, are
02:07:30
you? No. No. No. No. I'm enjoying the
02:07:33
moment. I'm just enjoying being at peace
02:07:35
and like particularly when the water's
02:07:36
calm, there's no wind, you just it's
02:07:38
just so peaceful. So come down. That's
02:07:41
good. You deserve that peace. Yeah.
02:07:43
Yeah. Um if you could give parents one
02:07:46
tip to help keep their kids safe, what
02:07:48
would it be?
02:07:52
It's it's difficult
02:07:55
but just be aware of a change in them
02:08:01
because what happens is people notice
02:08:04
change in the ch their children you know
02:08:07
they don't want to go to someone
02:08:08
friend's house anymore or something they
02:08:11
just react and they just changed a lot
02:08:14
of times it's because they've been
02:08:16
abused and not necessarily in their
02:08:18
home. So yeah, just if you see
02:08:23
particularly the young children, if you
02:08:24
see something that changes, be aware of
02:08:28
that. Plus, you do say the technology
02:08:31
just have a little bit more
02:08:33
conversation. I know it's difficult to
02:08:34
talk to teenagers. Uh but you know what
02:08:39
are they doing online? You just try to
02:08:42
have a bit more knowledge about that
02:08:43
because as I say lead down to horrible
02:08:47
past. God, it's never been more
02:08:49
difficult than it is now to be a parent.
02:08:50
Eh, I know. I know. I feel, you know,
02:08:52
say I've got my children got their
02:08:54
children and I think they do a fantastic
02:08:56
job, but it's not easy. You don't want
02:08:58
to be like a control freak parent or a
02:09:00
helicopter parent, but then, you know,
02:09:02
you got to be careful of the policeman
02:09:03
granddad.
02:09:06
Yeah. Yeah.
02:09:08
Um, what are the what are the greatest
02:09:10
challenges police face on the front line
02:09:12
today?
02:09:14
Uh, look, I think it is the violence
02:09:18
towards police. Yes, when I was younger,
02:09:20
we had violence towards police, but now
02:09:23
it's getting younger and younger.
02:09:24
There's children's violence out on the
02:09:26
street, and it's also directed at police
02:09:29
and yeah, it's tough.
02:09:33
What do you hope your legacy will be
02:09:35
both within the police force and in the
02:09:36
broader community?
02:09:40
Wow, what a legacy.
02:09:42
Uh yeah, I like to think that, you know,
02:09:46
police staff, we can be
02:09:48
empathetic. You know, we are human and
02:09:52
we can be empathetic and we're out there
02:09:55
doing our best. Yeah. As I said before,
02:09:58
we don't always get it right, but you
02:10:02
know, there's a lot of things police
02:10:04
staff do that the public will never see
02:10:06
or never know. You know the death and
02:10:09
tragedies that my staff have to attend,
02:10:11
you know, in one shift, one squad
02:10:14
attended three
02:10:15
suicides. They have to deal with that.
02:10:18
And that's why the counseling is Yeah.
02:10:26
Um that was a very selfless
02:10:29
answer, but the question was um what do
02:10:32
you hope your legacy will be? And you
02:10:34
managed to turn it into the broader.
02:10:36
Yeah. I don't think there's a lot about
02:10:37
you. I don't about me. I don't want to
02:10:39
be about me. I want it. Yeah. Yes, I'm a
02:10:41
policeman. Yes, I have a media profile.
02:10:44
But the police in general, we're a team.
02:10:47
The team wins. Oh, you won because of
02:10:49
him. Yeah, you might have scored a goal.
02:10:51
We'll try, but the team wins. And uh
02:10:56
[Music]
02:10:57
well as as I mentioned at the beginning
02:10:59
um when I said on Instagram you were
02:11:01
coming in um there were some questions
02:11:03
which we've just shared but they were
02:11:04
mainly just comments and the words that
02:11:06
sort of came up repeatedly were I
02:11:08
suppose like kind, compassionate and
02:11:09
caring. Uh which I think speaks volumes.
02:11:12
Like if if your kids or grandkids or
02:11:15
people that know you better than anyone
02:11:16
else had to come up with three words to
02:11:18
describe you, what would it be? What
02:11:20
would they be?
02:11:22
Yeah. kind like I'm a disciplinarian
02:11:25
that's it's my thing I am but yeah like
02:11:30
see my granddaughters they grandad they
02:11:32
come running up to me and um a father
02:11:35
just says you're so loving you know they
02:11:38
just love you so much and yeah I
02:11:43
whatever I just think yeah just put
02:11:47
yourselves in other people's shoes just
02:11:49
be kind be nice you
02:11:54
Sometimes as a boss of it a bit harsher,
02:11:56
but in general, you know, like be kind.
02:12:00
Yeah, I love that. That's a great way to
02:12:02
end it. Um, so what's what's next for
02:12:05
you in terms of the health stuff? Uh,
02:12:08
12th of May, a month of radiation, and
02:12:11
then see where it's gone. Yeah.
02:12:13
Did you just find that out this morning?
02:12:14
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've It was
02:12:17
last year that my PSA levels started to
02:12:19
go up. I don't have prostate PSA levels
02:12:23
uh cuz I get through nothing test. So to
02:12:25
come up test it again and they gone over
02:12:28
the
02:12:29
line and then they sort of stayed above
02:12:32
the line and that's where they at. So
02:12:34
yeah it was just okay you need to go and
02:12:36
see the radiation oncologist and it
02:12:38
started from there now okay you need um
02:12:41
hormone treatment radiation and so yeah
02:12:43
today was a pain day. So you ready for
02:12:47
the battle? Yeah, been there before.
02:12:51
Yes, this this is this don't like
02:12:53
losing. I don't like losing. I'm
02:12:55
competitive and even on this sports
02:12:56
field, I didn't like losing. Hey, this
02:12:59
has been so great today. Uh, Detective
02:13:00
Inspector Scott Beard, thanks so much.
02:13:02
You truly are a great New Zealander and
02:13:04
I can't thank you enough for we've been
02:13:05
going backwards and forwards for maybe 6
02:13:07
months. Yeah. Even though your office is
02:13:09
like um 15 meters from here. I know. And
02:13:12
when we get the alarm goes off, the
02:13:14
backyard comes through. See? Yeah. Yeah.
02:13:17
And and that's the thing that I noticed
02:13:19
about you now that since we u have
02:13:21
offices just over the road whenever I've
02:13:22
seen you you just have this good energy
02:13:25
like you bounce in. You're always
02:13:26
smiling. You're always laughing. Always
02:13:28
happy. Always lean and fit looking. Um
02:13:31
yeah, you're a great New Zealander.
02:13:33
Thanks so much mate. Thank you for that
02:13:34
Dom. It's been great. Yeah. And I just
02:13:36
hope you know people will hear and take
02:13:38
something from it and particularly
02:13:39
around the hills. Yeah. And metal. Well,
02:13:42
thanks on on behalf of me for being on
02:13:44
the podcast today and also on behalf of
02:13:45
New Zealand for a lifetime of service.
02:13:48
No, thank you very much.
