00:00:00
You're widely regarded as one of the
00:00:01
country's most influential business
00:00:02
woman.
00:00:03
>> I'm a kid who was born into a poor
00:00:06
workingclass family in the north of
00:00:08
England. I left school. I've got not one
00:00:10
tertiary qualification. People will
00:00:12
discover one day that I am really
00:00:14
useless.
00:00:15
>> You've already been like more open and
00:00:17
unguarded than what I was potentially
00:00:18
anticipating.
00:00:19
>> Well, you see, I've lived a pure life.
00:00:20
There's no real big secrets. We had a
00:00:22
hit list. We'd seen him outside the
00:00:24
record shop. He was only number seven
00:00:25
out of 10. Physically, we always been
00:00:27
really compatible. People sort of think
00:00:29
you die from the neck down once you're
00:00:30
45, but you know that ain't true. My
00:00:32
heart stopped in the second facelift I
00:00:35
was having, literally.
00:00:36
>> Do you do you feel like talking about
00:00:37
that or not so much?
00:00:38
>> Dom, I'm only ever sort of 30 seconds
00:00:40
away from bursting into tears about it.
00:00:42
And he died suddenly in front of the
00:00:44
children. So the whole thing was
00:00:46
horrendous. I'm coping. I don't know
00:00:47
that I'm healing.
00:00:48
>> What three words would you like your
00:00:49
grandkids to say about you?
00:00:54
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:56
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:58
there's a top performance in New
00:00:59
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:01
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:03
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:05
Holland one in To.
00:01:08
He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:10
performance going?
00:01:11
>> Top tier.
00:01:11
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:14
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:15
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:17
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:01:19
>> Maximize. Generate. Putting performance
00:01:22
first.
00:01:23
>> Dame Joan Withers, welcome to my
00:01:25
podcast.
00:01:26
>> Thank you, Dom.
00:01:27
I'm so honored that that you're here. I
00:01:29
reached out to you last year. I I know
00:01:32
I'm aware you haven't done a lot of
00:01:33
podcast um stuff before, so I was I was
00:01:35
quite surprised you said yes.
00:01:37
>> I was flattered to be asked.
00:01:38
>> Where? Why?
00:01:39
>> Well, I just think another media
00:01:41
personality. And I guess, you know, it's
00:01:44
always I find it incredibly
00:01:46
self-indulgent to go into these sorts of
00:01:48
conversations as opposed to being
00:01:50
sitting around a board table after
00:01:52
having read 300 pages of pre-eread. This
00:01:55
is fun.
00:01:57
Well, I hope it will be fun. Um, it's an
00:01:59
honor to have you here. You you're
00:02:00
widely regarded as one of the country's
00:02:02
most influential businesswoman. Um,
00:02:04
became a dame a year, two years ago,
00:02:07
>> about 18 months ago. Yeah.
00:02:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, some of the stuff you've
00:02:10
done, you were the chair of the
00:02:11
warehouse for 9 years. Um, director at
00:02:14
A&Z, um, Sky TV, Origin Energy, Mercury,
00:02:18
TVZ, Oakland Airport, Treasury Advisory
00:02:20
Board. Um, you've been CEO of the radio
00:02:22
network, CEO of Fairfax. Um, yeah, it's
00:02:27
it's an incredible LinkedIn page, isn't
00:02:29
it?
00:02:31
>> Uh, look, it's a long career and you can
00:02:33
pack quite a lot into the length of time
00:02:35
that I've been back in the workforce.
00:02:37
So, um, I think I've been incredibly
00:02:39
lucky. A lot of it's about being in the
00:02:42
right place at the right time. Um, a lot
00:02:45
of it's about the fact that at the stage
00:02:49
I was rising through the ranks in terms
00:02:52
of a career, there were loads of
00:02:54
opportunity for women and there were
00:02:56
active initiatives to get more women
00:02:59
into into leading roles, whether it be
00:03:01
in executive life or or in governance
00:03:03
around a board table. Uh, and I'm also
00:03:06
incredibly lucky in that I had a shining
00:03:10
example of what work ethic looks like
00:03:12
from my father. So, I've never been shy
00:03:16
of hard work uh and applying myself when
00:03:18
I needed to.
00:03:20
>> Yeah, I've got a quote from you. Uh my
00:03:22
approach to life and business boils down
00:03:24
to this. There are no shortcuts, no
00:03:25
silver bullets. If you are diligent and
00:03:28
tenacious and make the most of the
00:03:30
opportunities you're offered, you can
00:03:31
still get to the top.
00:03:33
>> Yeah, I'd stand by that.
00:03:34
>> Yeah, it's a great quote. Um
00:03:38
I Googled you um last week when I was
00:03:40
preparing for this interview and it just
00:03:41
came out on on like Google alerts like
00:03:42
just a couple of days ago that you're
00:03:44
finishing with um A&Z in July this year
00:03:46
after being there how like 12 years.
00:03:48
>> Yeah, I think it'll be close to 13 by
00:03:51
the time I go. Yes.
00:03:52
>> Yeah. Wh why why the decision? Oh um the
00:03:56
normal tenure in fact it's sort of
00:03:59
almost the protocol is 9 years maximum
00:04:02
but for a variety of reasons because of
00:04:04
a lot of change on the A&Z New Zealand
00:04:07
board um Sir John Key was the chair at
00:04:09
the time and asked me to extend my
00:04:11
tenure and then again I was asked for
00:04:14
another year just as as we sorted out
00:04:16
succession at board level. it. You know,
00:04:19
always with a board, it's a matter of
00:04:20
having the right mix of experienced
00:04:22
people who've been there long enough and
00:04:24
have got institutional knowledge, making
00:04:26
sure you're getting fresh blood in.
00:04:30
>> I'm I'm so excited to um pick your
00:04:32
brains about what it actually means cuz
00:04:34
I've never been in a boardroom in my in
00:04:36
my life. I'm on the um the body corp
00:04:37
committee at my apartment. Um and I find
00:04:39
that a ball ache sometimes just the
00:04:41
messages going backwards and forwards in
00:04:43
the WhatsApp group for a boutique
00:04:44
apartment. So I can't imagine how
00:04:46
intense it is at the sort of level
00:04:47
you're doing. But um yeah, when you when
00:04:50
you strip away the titles and the
00:04:52
achievements, who are you at your core?
00:04:56
>> Look, I'm a kid who was born into a um
00:05:00
pretty poor workingclass family in the
00:05:03
north of England. Um whose parents
00:05:06
decided to immigrate after my maternal
00:05:09
grandmother died and come out here cuz
00:05:11
my father's family were here. I don't
00:05:13
think I've ever le lost those
00:05:15
workingclass roots.
00:05:17
Um, so my life experience is probably
00:05:21
very different to that of a lot of
00:05:23
people I sit around a board table with.
00:05:27
>> Uh, as I said before, I've worked hard,
00:05:30
>> always have worked hard.
00:05:32
>> I've had
00:05:34
um the absolute good fortune to have a
00:05:38
life partner, the same life partner
00:05:40
since I was 15.
00:05:42
So I think that's a big part of who I am
00:05:46
because we've grown up together and
00:05:48
we're now growing old together
00:05:50
>> and those are the things that are really
00:05:53
rock solid and fundamental.
00:05:56
So you know dad I guess was a really
00:05:58
positive influence not only in terms of
00:06:00
that work ethic but also in terms of
00:06:02
integrity.
00:06:04
>> You know he's one of those guy I would
00:06:06
stake my life on the fact he never did
00:06:08
anything wrong in his life. you know, he
00:06:10
was just that sort of guy.
00:06:12
>> He um was in the army. His father put
00:06:14
him into the territorials when he was
00:06:16
15. Lied about his age. Could see the
00:06:18
Second World War coming up. Demobbed
00:06:20
when he was 26.
00:06:22
Trained as a sheet metal worker. Made
00:06:26
the decision to come out to New Zealand.
00:06:28
Couldn't get a job as a sheet metal
00:06:29
worker. So ended up rolling coils of
00:06:32
rubber hose at the reed rubber factory
00:06:34
which is right where that intersection
00:06:36
is now at um at Ellisley. Um
00:06:41
and you know gave us all the three girls
00:06:44
gave us all a very very good grounding
00:06:47
on um doing the right thing.
00:06:52
>> You So you're born 1953 in Manchester.
00:06:55
>> Yep.
00:06:56
>> Any memories? Any memories from those
00:06:57
early years in the UK? Yeah, slight
00:07:00
memories. I started school there and I
00:07:02
think as you would expect the journey um
00:07:06
sticks in my mind going on a big boat
00:07:09
for 5 weeks.
00:07:10
>> Oh, was it a boat?
00:07:11
>> It was a boat.
00:07:12
>> Oh my god.
00:07:13
>> And rough seas.
00:07:16
Um so I can remember seeing, you know,
00:07:18
standing up on a mezzanine floor and
00:07:20
seeing the dining room be below sort of
00:07:23
swaying and plates sliding down the
00:07:25
table. Just just little memories like
00:07:28
that. Can can remember meeting my
00:07:30
paternal grandparents for the for the
00:07:32
first time. So patchy but yes still
00:07:35
there.
00:07:37
>> So you you're six when you moved to New
00:07:38
Zealand. Um yeah what can you remember
00:07:40
your first impressions or your parents
00:07:42
Lillian Lillian and Lillian and Jack?
00:07:44
What did they tell you about? I
00:07:45
>> had done a lot of research.
00:07:46
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:47
>> Uh there wasn't a lot of because my
00:07:50
grandmother died quite suddenly and she
00:07:53
was only 69. and she lived with us.
00:07:56
There's no way my mother would have
00:07:57
immigrated while her mother was alive.
00:08:00
So, it was she died in the March, I
00:08:02
think, and I think we're on a boat in
00:08:04
the June or July. So, it was incredibly
00:08:06
quick. Um, so we weren't given much of a
00:08:09
preamble about what to expect. My mother
00:08:12
when she arrived was devastated. One,
00:08:14
she was still grieving, no doubt, but
00:08:16
also this was just such a backwater, you
00:08:19
know, to her. So, so she suffered I
00:08:22
think what would be classified now as
00:08:24
depression. Remember her crying a lot as
00:08:27
we were kids. Um, so
00:08:31
yeah, I mean the thing I remember most
00:08:34
is I really wanted to fit in. I had this
00:08:37
North of England accent which was very
00:08:39
different to my peers at school. And you
00:08:42
know, note to self, get rid of the
00:08:44
accent real quick,
00:08:45
>> which I managed to do. My older sister,
00:08:48
who was about 5 years older than me,
00:08:50
didn't manage to get rid of it so
00:08:51
quickly, but I just tried to fit in. And
00:08:54
then I think I loved it, you know. I
00:08:56
think I loved going to the beach. I
00:08:58
loved the open air, you know, loved
00:09:02
playing with the kids in the
00:09:03
neighborhood. So, yeah.
00:09:07
>> What did you want to be when you grew
00:09:08
up? Did did little girls have career
00:09:11
aspirations back then? Were they allowed
00:09:12
to have career aspirations?
00:09:14
>> They're definitely allowed to. And again
00:09:16
I think and I've this is my view more
00:09:19
and it's something that I work on at the
00:09:20
moment is you cannot be what you cannot
00:09:23
see. So you still see it in New Zealand
00:09:25
unfortunately that that children who
00:09:28
don't get exposed to what is the
00:09:30
possible have a much harder time of
00:09:32
finding of of I guess maximizing their
00:09:35
opportunities and reaching their full
00:09:37
potential. I um I didn't really have a
00:09:41
fixed view. I loved creative things,
00:09:44
which is weird because I've I'm
00:09:45
absolutely really not that creative, but
00:09:48
I thought I might be a fashion designer.
00:09:50
So, I actually used to do sketches and
00:09:52
send them off to some of the designers.
00:09:54
I remember someone like Kevin Bean and
00:09:56
people don't poor things getting these
00:09:59
very amateur-ish, awful thing, awful
00:10:02
sketches. But no, it was more when I
00:10:04
went to high school. I went to a very
00:10:06
very good Catholic girls college and the
00:10:11
head teacher there was an amazing woman
00:10:13
and she really did start to give you a
00:10:17
perspective on you could do whatever you
00:10:18
wanted to do but once I met Brian that's
00:10:22
all I wanted to do so I left school
00:10:24
straight after sitting school C they
00:10:27
invited me to come back and and promised
00:10:29
me UEIE accredititation I would go
00:10:31
straight into the seventh form but there
00:10:32
was no way So,
00:10:34
>> I've heard Yeah. You mentioned before
00:10:36
that your dad never did like anything
00:10:38
wrong in his life. Um, I've heard you
00:10:40
describe yourself as a rebellious teen.
00:10:42
>> I was.
00:10:43
>> Were you Were you a badass? What were
00:10:45
you
00:10:45
>> Well, not bad. You know, there's a
00:10:47
continuum of bad.
00:10:49
>> Bad by like Catholic Catholic school
00:10:51
standards and by your dad's benchmark
00:10:53
perhaps.
00:10:55
>> Yeah. Look, there was never anything
00:10:57
that was particularly egregious, but um
00:11:00
my sister, my older sister was very good
00:11:03
and would say, "Look, mom, I'll help you
00:11:04
with the ironing." That absolutely was
00:11:06
not me. Is like I want to go to that
00:11:08
dance, you know. So, so it it there was
00:11:13
rebellion um to an extent.
00:11:16
Um
00:11:18
yeah, once I met Brian, I was pretty
00:11:20
adamant I wanted to go out with him. And
00:11:22
when they said, "Well, you can go out in
00:11:23
the weekend, but you're not going out on
00:11:25
on during the school week." That was it.
00:11:27
And I came home, I remember coming home,
00:11:29
sitting the last school C exam, and I
00:11:31
said, "I'm out of there.
00:11:32
>> I'm gone."
00:11:33
>> Yeah.
00:11:34
>> You know,
00:11:35
>> so so I guess that's rebellion.
00:11:37
>> Um,
00:11:39
but no, there was nothing really
00:11:40
naughty, Dom, unfortunately.
00:11:42
>> Just sort of more strong willed.
00:11:45
>> Oh, yeah. Very much strong willed. Yeah.
00:11:47
>> Okay.
00:11:47
>> Yeah.
00:11:48
>> So, um, yeah, let's talk about Brian. So
00:11:50
um the Papawi rugby club rooms at the
00:11:53
age of 15. It was a dance there.
00:11:55
>> Is that the first time you you sort of
00:11:56
locked eyes?
00:11:58
>> Did you know him before that or
00:11:59
>> I did not know him but um my best friend
00:12:03
and I used to rank the guys in Papa. So
00:12:06
we we had a hit list. We'd seen him
00:12:08
outside the record shop on a Thursday
00:12:10
night. He was only number seven out of
00:12:12
10 unfortunately.
00:12:14
However, uh at the dance Yes. He came up
00:12:17
and asked me to dance. So that was it.
00:12:19
He made it
00:12:20
>> spite of being number seven.
00:12:23
>> 1968
00:12:25
>> 69
00:12:25
>> 69
00:12:26
>> May the 1869 we met. Yeah.
00:12:28
>> You're still together now. It's um
00:12:30
what's been the key? What's been the key
00:12:32
to um a success the success and the
00:12:34
longevity in your marriage?
00:12:37
>> Uh we're very different.
00:12:39
>> He is very creative. Um
00:12:43
yep. He
00:12:45
he doesn't let me push him around. you
00:12:47
know, we've had interesting career
00:12:49
trajectories. He worked at E New Zealand
00:12:51
for 48 hour 48 years. 48 hours. Um, he's
00:12:55
now retired. He's very happy in
00:12:57
retirement. Uh, cuz we're on a, you
00:12:58
know, 20 acre property. So, he he sort
00:13:01
of does things on the property and has,
00:13:03
you know, re baby calves and stuff. Um,
00:13:08
physically we always been really
00:13:10
compatible and I think, you know, when
00:13:11
you get to my age, people don't talk
00:13:13
about that stuff, but it's hugely
00:13:15
important. I think
00:13:16
>> I think um
00:13:18
>> What do you mean you still find him
00:13:19
sexy?
00:13:20
>> Yeah.
00:13:20
>> Yep. Definitely.
00:13:21
>> That's cool.
00:13:22
>> Good on you for talking about that.
00:13:24
>> Yeah. Well, I think it is really
00:13:25
important cuz people sort of think you
00:13:27
die from the neck down once you're 45,
00:13:28
but you know, that ain't true.
00:13:30
>> Um and I think for women especially
00:13:32
today, it's really, you know, there's
00:13:34
much more talk about menopause and
00:13:36
postmenopause and things that happen.
00:13:38
So, I think that's really important.
00:13:39
But, yeah, physically, we've always been
00:13:41
very attracted to each other.
00:13:43
intellectually we're very different. Um
00:13:46
he keeps me incredibly grounded. He um
00:13:51
is a fabulous father uh and an amazing
00:13:54
grandfather. Unfortunately, we lost our
00:13:56
son in October last year, died very
00:13:59
suddenly. So, it's when you go through
00:14:02
something like that, you realize how
00:14:04
important that relationship is.
00:14:07
Um, and I think also, you know, once you
00:14:10
get grandkids, that's a whole another
00:14:12
realm in your life where you really
00:14:15
nobody else other than their parents is
00:14:18
ever going to care about them the way
00:14:21
that you do, you know? So, so we've had
00:14:24
that in common. Uh, he's indulged me
00:14:27
when I decided I wanted to take up horse
00:14:29
riding at the age of 43
00:14:32
and my horse spooked and I said, "Right,
00:14:34
that's it. I'm giving up cuz I've fallen
00:14:36
off." He said, "No, no, no. Don't give
00:14:37
it up. I'll take it up as well." So, he
00:14:39
did. And we did that for, you know, a
00:14:41
long, long time. We haven't He's had a
00:14:43
hip replacement, so he's a bit nervous
00:14:45
about getting back on the horse, but,
00:14:47
you know, it's those things is we've
00:14:48
we've always been able to
00:14:51
>> have compatibility in terms of spending
00:14:54
a lot of time together outside, you
00:14:57
know, like outside our work careers
00:14:59
where we've we spend 99% of our
00:15:03
recreational time together.
00:15:07
Thanks for that answer. That's um I
00:15:09
don't know. This is the first time we've
00:15:10
we've met. I feel like I know you though
00:15:11
and I I wasn't sure what to expect with
00:15:13
this podcast, but you've already been
00:15:14
like more open and unguarded than what I
00:15:17
was potentially anticipating.
00:15:19
>> Um
00:15:19
>> well, you see, I've lived a pure life.
00:15:21
There's no real big secret. So,
00:15:23
>> yeah. Um so, Brian went to um went to
00:15:27
that dance. Um the quote that I heard is
00:15:29
that he was determined to find a
00:15:31
dependent wife. det
00:15:34
He failed on that account, didn't he?
00:15:36
>> Yeah, he did. He did. I look I Yeah,
00:15:39
it's a very interesting dynamic. And you
00:15:42
think, you know, like what his
00:15:43
expectations were
00:15:45
in a relationship and then going into a
00:15:47
marriage. Um, but he's always, you know,
00:15:50
if id said to him, I want to have 10
00:15:52
kids, he would have said, right, well,
00:15:53
we need to get a bigger house, but we'll
00:15:55
work through it. As it was, we had one
00:15:57
child and it, you know, I stayed home
00:15:59
for six years and then said, look, I am
00:16:01
climbing the walls. I can't do this
00:16:02
again. I've got to go back to work. Um,
00:16:05
and he supported me every step of the
00:16:07
way. So,
00:16:10
>> um, yes. So, you left school at 15. Um,
00:16:13
>> 16.
00:16:13
>> 16. Married married Married at 19. Um,
00:16:16
>> yes.
00:16:16
>> Your son Jamie um he was born on your
00:16:19
21st birthday.
00:16:19
>> He was. Yeah.
00:16:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, so while while
00:16:23
you were like raising this toddler at
00:16:25
home, you were um working from home
00:16:26
knitting for people.
00:16:28
>> Yeah. I uh I thought I should continue
00:16:31
to contribute wherever I could and uh so
00:16:35
I bought a knitting machine and in those
00:16:38
days you used to get a family benefit of
00:16:40
$160 a week or whatever it was.
00:16:42
>> Was that an okay sum of money back then?
00:16:45
>> It sounds like a pittance. It was a
00:16:47
pittance. It was it was a pathetic
00:16:49
amount. I can't Yeah, it was around
00:16:51
that. It was very very little, but it
00:16:53
was enough to put buy this thing on
00:16:56
higher purchase and um so I pushed the
00:17:00
pram up to the shop like I don't know
00:17:02
how many times to make sure I could was
00:17:05
fully proficient. And then my sister saw
00:17:08
an ad for a boutique in town in the
00:17:10
Strand Arcade and they were looking for
00:17:13
people to create garments from photos
00:17:17
and magazines.
00:17:19
So I um I did that for well J it must
00:17:23
have done done it for about three or
00:17:25
four years
00:17:26
>> and this guy was actually fabulously
00:17:28
supportive and he'd bring me out all the
00:17:30
wool and I'd think how the hell do I
00:17:32
create this thing and I did it. So that
00:17:34
was good in that it was it was
00:17:38
additional money for the family which
00:17:40
again cuz I was doing 10 garments a week
00:17:42
or something it actually ended up being
00:17:44
reasonably lucrative.
00:17:46
>> You're not good at sitting still are
00:17:47
you? But you're very busy.
00:17:48
>> I am good at sitting still actually.
00:17:50
Yeah, I am. I I'm either full on or I'm
00:17:53
full stop. And when I stop, I stop.
00:17:57
>> Like I've just had six weeks off and
00:17:59
I've done bugger all. Look, my nails are
00:18:01
still hanging in up there after 6 weeks.
00:18:03
It's I've done nothing. Um, which has
00:18:06
been great.
00:18:07
>> What What does nothing mean?
00:18:10
>> Well, we were away traveling. So I, you
00:18:12
know, I've done no housework. I've done
00:18:13
no
00:18:15
>> reading or anything like normally, you
00:18:17
know, reading hundreds of which I'm back
00:18:18
into now, but 6 weeks I didn't do
00:18:20
anything really
00:18:22
>> except enjoy myself.
00:18:23
>> Yeah. Oh, fantastic. It's welld
00:18:25
deserved. You um I don't know if you
00:18:27
want to um talk about this before. I I I
00:18:30
wasn't sure if it was an area we' we'd
00:18:31
go to, but um you brought it up just
00:18:33
before your son Jamie, who passed away
00:18:35
um actually four months ago today.
00:18:38
>> Yeah.
00:18:39
>> Yeah. I um I didn't know him
00:18:41
particularly well um but we worked for
00:18:42
the same company and we worked in
00:18:44
different buildings so I had some
00:18:45
dealings with him. Um what a lovely man.
00:18:48
He's really kind.
00:18:49
>> Yeah.
00:18:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's very very tough.
00:18:53
>> So he was Yeah. As I said before um your
00:18:56
only child born on your 21st birthday.
00:18:58
Um
00:19:02
>> yeah. Do you do you feel like talking
00:19:04
about that or not so much?
00:19:05
>> Well,
00:19:05
>> is it too painful? It's still, you know,
00:19:08
Dom, I'm only ever sort of 30 seconds
00:19:10
away from bursting into tears about it.
00:19:12
But, uh, but as I said before, Brian and
00:19:15
I have, you know, tried to work through
00:19:18
because when you have a sudden death
00:19:20
like that under those circumstances and
00:19:22
it was horrendous, you've got all the
00:19:24
logistics that you've got to deal with.
00:19:26
So, you've got police, you've got
00:19:27
coroners, you've got, you know, and he
00:19:30
died suddenly in front of the children.
00:19:31
So, the whole thing was horrendous.
00:19:34
So,
00:19:36
you know, given my personality and who I
00:19:39
am, I had to lead all of that that
00:19:41
process. And we're still, you know,
00:19:43
still haven't got
00:19:45
cause of death yet. Um,
00:19:49
so there's a lot of it that you you get
00:19:52
through the funeral and then you you
00:19:54
think, how am I going to deal with that?
00:19:56
So,
00:19:57
you know, those are still conversations
00:19:59
I need to have with myself. Um
00:20:03
>> uh
00:20:06
you know Jamie was a fabulous guy but he
00:20:09
had problems you will know that he had
00:20:11
problems with alcohol previously.
00:20:14
>> Um but he got himself together.
00:20:17
>> Uh he was a fabulous father to those
00:20:20
children.
00:20:22
>> Um
00:20:24
and we certainly didn't expect that to
00:20:26
happen. I mean, he didn't get the best
00:20:28
best of health and we'd been all been
00:20:30
out, you know, I spoke to him the
00:20:32
Tuesday before he died on the Saturday.
00:20:34
Had a long conversation with him about
00:20:36
about his son. Um,
00:20:39
I think we'd gone out the week before
00:20:41
cuz it was Indy's birthday and she'd
00:20:43
wanted to go to Pearl Garden, so we'd
00:20:45
all gone to Pearl Garden. Um, and so
00:20:50
yeah, I it's just how your grief unfolds
00:20:53
I think is different for everyone and
00:20:55
and how you deal with that. But again,
00:20:57
as I said at the outset, I don't know
00:21:00
how I would have coped without Brian. I
00:21:02
don't I just don't know. And um
00:21:06
>> and probably vice versa.
00:21:09
Yeah, I think more from a practical
00:21:12
sense for me. I I think he's,
00:21:17
you know, he he's glad that I took
00:21:21
control of all of that side of it
00:21:23
because that's what I'm better at. So, I
00:21:25
think we both have played to each
00:21:26
other's strengths.
00:21:30
>> Man, it's a lot to go through.
00:21:32
>> It's the children that you think about
00:21:34
more, you know, like
00:21:35
>> how old are the kids now? Uh Indie will
00:21:37
be 14 in September and Alex is is eight.
00:21:41
Uh he'll be nine in in April. Um
00:21:46
yeah, I think Indy's, you know, she's
00:21:47
very they're both close to their father,
00:21:49
but Indie was really close cuz as you
00:21:51
can imagine, he's brought her up with
00:21:53
music and she's
00:21:55
>> and we took her took her up to the the
00:21:57
cemetery a couple of weeks ago. She
00:21:58
wanted to go up. we'd had a family ga
00:22:00
gathering um and uh she said, "Oh, I I
00:22:05
want to talk to dad." And so we walked
00:22:08
around the the cemetery and I I think
00:22:10
that's when Brian,
00:22:12
you know, we moved away to give her the
00:22:15
space to do that. But and she was just
00:22:17
talking to him, you could see. Um
00:22:20
uh but that really broke Brian up, you
00:22:22
know. I think it's just that's just one
00:22:24
example of of how it affects the kids.
00:22:26
But it was beautiful that she had whole
00:22:28
bunch of stuff she wanted to share with
00:22:30
them and she's very animated. So it in
00:22:33
one in one sense it was a beautiful
00:22:35
thing to say but to see but very very
00:22:37
hard very hard especially for Brian.
00:22:42
>> Can you remember how you ended the last
00:22:44
conversation with Jamie?
00:22:46
>> Yeah. Uh well we were we sort of
00:22:50
reflected on on the lunch and and how
00:22:52
that had gone and then you know talking
00:22:54
to him. Alex is is uh a very special guy
00:22:57
and we were just talking about him and
00:23:00
and sharing he's he's um at a Montasauri
00:23:04
school in Onihunga and he's just you
00:23:07
know he's on the lower end of the autism
00:23:09
spectrum but he's just gone from
00:23:10
strength to strength. We were sort of
00:23:13
talking about his um he's been fully
00:23:17
proficient in in uh in playing chess now
00:23:21
and even says to his grandfather, "How
00:23:23
does it feel to be beaten by an
00:23:24
8-year-old?" So So it was that sort of
00:23:27
conversation. So Jamie's incredibly
00:23:30
proud of the kids.
00:23:32
>> Was he proud of his mom?
00:23:34
>> Yeah, he was, I think. But he need, you
00:23:37
know, like he
00:23:40
Yeah. I mean, he'd always Yeah. He
00:23:43
>> he was he's interesting in that he he
00:23:46
would he would be circumspect about
00:23:49
things like he didn't make a big deal
00:23:51
about the Damehood, you know. I didn't
00:23:53
tell anyone. I didn't even tell Brian. I
00:23:55
actually was overseas. I was in the
00:23:57
States.
00:23:58
>> What What do you mean? So, you get a
00:23:59
letter. You get a letter or a phone call
00:24:00
or
00:24:01
>> you get an email. You get an email from
00:24:03
DPMC and it's sort of it's still like
00:24:05
all you know this has to be approved by
00:24:07
the king and you got to fill in all
00:24:08
these things.
00:24:10
And um but this might happen. And it
00:24:13
says then don't tell anyone, which I
00:24:16
didn't. I thought, well, I'm not going
00:24:17
to tell anyone cuz
00:24:18
>> you can trust Brian.
00:24:19
>> Well, no, it wasn't that I didn't trust
00:24:21
him, but I actually knew I was going to
00:24:22
be overseas on King's birthday weekend,
00:24:26
uh which is when they make the
00:24:28
announcement.
00:24:29
And I just thought if I tell him, you
00:24:33
know, then it's that it's cats out of
00:24:35
the bag and he I know I know I knew what
00:24:37
he'd be like and it would be unbearable
00:24:39
for 6 weeks it didn't happen.
00:24:42
>> So I thought I just won't tell him and
00:24:44
so um Brian had to ring Jamie and tell
00:24:46
him and when I talked to to Brian who
00:24:50
said why didn't you tell me? Um
00:24:53
I said what did Jamie say? And he said,
00:24:54
"Oh, oh god, is that right?" sort of
00:24:56
thing, you know, saying, "Yeah." And
00:24:59
then he Jamie did ring me, so but yeah,
00:25:01
it's not Yeah. Yeah. No, he was
00:25:03
>> didn't show it. Didn't show it.
00:25:04
>> Yeah.
00:25:05
>> Yeah.
00:25:05
>> I know. Too late to ask him, but Yeah.
00:25:10
>> You You're um You're holding it together
00:25:11
remarkably well.
00:25:13
>> Well, there's still really fresh, isn't
00:25:15
it?
00:25:16
>> Yeah, it is very Yeah. And like I say,
00:25:18
there's still a couple of big
00:25:19
conversations I need to have with
00:25:21
myself, which I'm probably deliberately
00:25:24
postponing. And and so there was, you
00:25:26
know, the immediate aftermath. Then we
00:25:28
we'd already planned to go overseas.
00:25:30
That had been booked at midyear and we
00:25:32
decided we would do that. So we, you
00:25:34
know, we had that time together.
00:25:36
>> Um but yeah, look,
00:25:39
>> you just have to work through it. Um,
00:25:41
I've had Mark Graeme on the podcast, you
00:25:43
know, the famous rugby league player,
00:25:44
and he lost um, one of his sons to the
00:25:46
same sort of tragic circumstances.
00:25:49
>> And I asked him if he wanted to talk
00:25:50
about it, and his his response was like,
00:25:52
"Not not really." He said, "I I try not
00:25:55
to think about it cuz when I think about
00:25:56
it, it hurts."
00:25:58
>> Yeah, it does hurt.
00:25:59
>> Um,
00:26:02
but I think it's also cathartic in some
00:26:04
ways.
00:26:10
Yeah. What have you learned about grief
00:26:11
that you didn't know already?
00:26:16
>> Well, nothing prepares you for that.
00:26:18
>> Um,
00:26:19
>> and you know, you expect your parents to
00:26:21
go at some point and that that happened
00:26:24
and it's very very sad.
00:26:26
>> Uh, you don't expect this sort of stuff
00:26:29
to happen, but you you know, Jamie is
00:26:32
51, so he wasn't a child. I think
00:26:36
parents when they lose their kids or
00:26:39
even grandparents when they lose their
00:26:40
grandkids when they are children I I
00:26:43
don't know how people deal with that. I
00:26:44
honestly don't
00:26:47
especially if it's unexpected but also
00:26:49
the families that
00:26:50
>> have to deal with you know not knowing
00:26:52
children develop you know cancer or
00:26:54
shocking illnesses and they have to work
00:26:56
through
00:26:57
>> months or years not knowing what the
00:26:59
outcome's really going to be. So those
00:27:01
are the people I really really empathize
00:27:03
with.
00:27:06
Thanks for sharing this stuff. Yeah, I'm
00:27:08
really sorry that you guys had to go
00:27:10
through this.
00:27:11
>> Thank you.
00:27:13
>> Um, should we get back onto your career?
00:27:16
So, you're 30 36 and
00:27:19
>> No, I'm a bit older than 36.
00:27:24
>> You're looking great. What are you? 73
00:27:25
72.
00:27:26
>> 72.
00:27:27
>> Yeah. 73 this year.
00:27:28
>> Yes.
00:27:29
>> You're looking You're looking fantastic.
00:27:31
How do you feel like like a
00:27:33
>> really healthy?
00:27:34
>> Yeah, cuz I I turned 53 um yesterday and
00:27:36
I was saying to someone, I feel exactly
00:27:38
the same as what I did in my in my 20s,
00:27:40
but it's like you look in the mirror and
00:27:41
catch a glimpse of yourself sometimes
00:27:42
and you're like, holy when did
00:27:45
this happen? How did this happen? You
00:27:46
feel good?
00:27:48
>> Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky with my
00:27:50
health. And I've always had, you know,
00:27:52
good health, lots of energy. Um I eat
00:27:56
well. I've never smoked.
00:27:59
I don't drink to excess having just
00:28:02
spent six weeks overseas when you know
00:28:04
you tend to have a couple of glasses
00:28:06
every night. Normally a regime would be
00:28:08
have a have half a bottle of wine or
00:28:10
share a bottle of wine with Brian
00:28:12
Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Uh I think
00:28:14
it's very easy to slip off that regime
00:28:16
and especially when people are under
00:28:18
stress.
00:28:18
>> So I think that's really important
00:28:20
getting some sort of exercise.
00:28:22
>> So you know whatever it is, it's just
00:28:25
making sure you're actually doing
00:28:27
something and moving. I believe in use
00:28:29
it or lose it. Yes. You know, so
00:28:32
>> um
00:28:32
>> Well, that's that applies to brain and
00:28:34
body, doesn't it?
00:28:35
>> Absolutely.
00:28:35
>> Yeah.
00:28:36
>> But also in terms of, you know, when
00:28:38
you're functioning in the corporate
00:28:40
environment, you you do want to make
00:28:43
sure
00:28:44
you're looking as good as you possibly
00:28:46
can as a woman. That's how I feel. I'm
00:28:48
not saying that is a generalization.
00:28:50
Some people don't care. I do. So, I do
00:28:53
everything that I can. You know, in my
00:28:56
books I've written about having
00:28:57
facelifts. Um, you know, so
00:29:02
>> have you you had work done? Jeez, you
00:29:03
you are an open book, aren't you?
00:29:05
>> Well, I've that's not a revelation
00:29:07
today, Dom. So that's
00:29:10
I've sh I've shared that that
00:29:12
information before. I I actually this
00:29:15
well, it is a funny story, but my heart
00:29:18
stopped in the the second facelift I was
00:29:21
having literally. So I got rushed to
00:29:23
hospital um because somebody had
00:29:25
injected something into a vein or
00:29:27
something and so
00:29:29
>> so yeah.
00:29:29
>> So there is a cautionary tale there.
00:29:31
>> So what do you get done? You you get
00:29:33
Botox on a regular basis?
00:29:35
>> Um yeah I do get Botox done. Yep.
00:29:38
>> Yeah. If it makes you feel good.
00:29:41
>> Why not?
00:29:42
>> Exactly.
00:29:45
>> Um yeah, you rudely interrupted me
00:29:47
before I was going somewhere. you you're
00:29:49
36 and not not today, but when you were
00:29:51
36, you um decided to to get an MBA.
00:29:56
>> Yes.
00:29:58
>> Yeah. Why so
00:30:01
>> um
00:30:01
>> you had a good career, right? You
00:30:03
>> I had a good career, but I tell you
00:30:04
what, when you start getting promoter
00:30:07
characterized by getting promotions,
00:30:09
like I wasn't applying for jobs, people
00:30:10
say, "Oh, do this, do this, do this." I
00:30:13
did apply for the radio eye job but when
00:30:16
you get um as before that just going
00:30:19
through the ranks I just felt like I've
00:30:22
got not one tertiary qualification
00:30:25
didn't even do UEI I'm a fraud
00:30:28
people will discover one day that I am
00:30:30
really useless you know and so
00:30:35
not going to university
00:30:38
was always in the back of my mind and
00:30:39
then I heard about MBA which was
00:30:41
relative ly new in those days and I
00:30:44
thought that would be exactly what I
00:30:46
need and that it's totally relevant to
00:30:48
what I'm doing
00:30:51
but I thought there was no way cuz I
00:30:52
hadn't done UEIE so I didn't think I'd
00:30:54
be able to get into the course we were
00:30:56
Jamie was going to Kings so we couldn't
00:30:59
have afforded for me to to pay the fees
00:31:01
for an MBA and also you need a hell of a
00:31:04
lot of indulgence from your employer
00:31:06
because you got to go to lectures and so
00:31:08
forth and you know workshops studies and
00:31:10
so forth so quite a a lot of time off.
00:31:14
But it was quite funny because I said to
00:31:15
Brian, I'd really like to do this. Um,
00:31:18
and so I got in touch with the
00:31:20
university or the or the business school
00:31:22
at Oakland University and I said, "Look,
00:31:25
I haven't I haven't got UEIE. Does that
00:31:27
rule me out?" And they said, "No, no,
00:31:29
no. You can do a GMAT test." So then I
00:31:32
went to my employer and said, "This is
00:31:34
um, you know, what I'm planning to do."
00:31:36
And they said, "I will pay you fees." It
00:31:38
was it was as easy as that
00:31:43
and um we'll give you all the time off
00:31:46
you need.
00:31:48
So it was like the hurdles and that's
00:31:51
the thing. You think something's right
00:31:53
up there but actually they just fell
00:31:55
away and then it was oh my god this is
00:31:57
actually going to happen. I did the GMAT
00:31:59
test pass that and got in.
00:32:02
>> Sounds like it was really hard work. So
00:32:03
Jamie was 15 at the time. He'd do the
00:32:05
family grocery shopping. You were
00:32:06
getting up at 3:00 a.m. to to study
00:32:09
Monday to Friday.
00:32:10
>> Yep.
00:32:10
>> It's the only way you can get through.
00:32:12
>> Yeah.
00:32:13
>> Uh and what hard work, but oh god, I
00:32:17
enjoyed it. And it was sort of like
00:32:19
everybody else around me paid the price
00:32:21
because,
00:32:23
you know, I could didn't cook. I didn't
00:32:26
do anything other than go to work and do
00:32:28
the MBA. That's all I did for two years.
00:32:31
So,
00:32:32
>> so I had a fabulous time. I just loved
00:32:35
being in the lecture theater. I loved
00:32:37
everything I learned. It was all totally
00:32:40
relevant to what I was doing. Just Yeah,
00:32:43
it was brilliant.
00:32:44
>> And and in hindsight, looking back, did
00:32:46
did you need it?
00:32:47
>> Yes. Well,
00:32:48
>> did you need it for like for your own
00:32:50
>> I didn't needed it for myself, but I
00:32:52
also think because they were rel now
00:32:54
they're, you know, much more prevalent,
00:32:56
but in those days they were relatively
00:32:58
rare. It was right at the beginning of
00:33:00
when they started to come on. Uh and so
00:33:03
it was a major differentiator.
00:33:06
>> So you know having that on my CV
00:33:09
definitely helped.
00:33:10
>> Yeah. What you were talking about before
00:33:12
um like the catalyst to to get into
00:33:14
study and get an MBA. Um yeah. Are you
00:33:16
familiar with the term imposter
00:33:17
syndrome?
00:33:18
>> Yes.
00:33:18
>> Yeah.
00:33:19
>> And that's what it was.
00:33:20
>> Right.
00:33:20
>> Yeah.
00:33:20
>> Right. So I've had some other um people
00:33:22
on the podcast. Jason Paris from one NZ
00:33:25
and also Miles Harl from Fonta. Um
00:33:28
>> they're both uneducated as well. And I
00:33:30
Yeah. They both have that sort of even
00:33:31
to this day in their high high-profile
00:33:33
positions still have that sort of chirp
00:33:35
on the shoulder, you know, about not
00:33:37
being not It's It's a funny thing, isn't
00:33:39
it? It sticks with you.
00:33:41
>> It does stick with you and it and like
00:33:43
it's not a nec It's not necessarily a
00:33:46
bad thing because I'm never going to be
00:33:48
the smartest person in the room ever. Uh
00:33:51
I want to
00:33:52
>> You are in this room like Look, you've
00:33:55
got Kanye down there.
00:33:57
Um, no. I I think you know what I know
00:34:02
more than anything else is the minute
00:34:03
you become arrogant, you lose it. You
00:34:05
lose all the all the power and the
00:34:08
control you have for maximizing
00:34:11
outcomes. And I think knowing that
00:34:15
you've got other people around you and
00:34:16
enjoying the fact that other people
00:34:18
around you have different and greater
00:34:20
skills
00:34:21
means that you can then collectively get
00:34:24
to the best decision which is what being
00:34:26
part of an executive leadership team is
00:34:28
if you're a CEO or being part of a board
00:34:31
of directors. That's what you have to
00:34:33
have.
00:34:33
>> Yeah. So I think a bit of humility if
00:34:36
the imposttor syndrome gives you a bit
00:34:38
of personal deep look you know I really
00:34:41
shouldn't be here but by Christ I'm
00:34:42
going to do my best to make make sure I
00:34:44
give the best that I can is not a
00:34:48
negative thing at all I don't think so
00:34:50
>> after getting that degree degree was
00:34:51
that when the radio career of Joan River
00:34:55
Joan withers started
00:34:57
>> um yeah I was in the last semester of
00:35:01
the degree um And it's a funny story
00:35:04
because I was working I was working for
00:35:06
INL. I was working at the Oakland Star.
00:35:08
You you're too young to remember the
00:35:09
Oakland Star.
00:35:10
>> It was the evening newspaper.
00:35:11
>> It was
00:35:11
>> I vaguely remember.
00:35:12
>> And so part of one of the um financial
00:35:15
management papers we had to do was about
00:35:17
net present value which is you know
00:35:19
about valuing a company or valuing the
00:35:21
cash flows of a company. And we all had
00:35:24
to buy these um little Huelet Packard
00:35:28
special computers that you've fed in the
00:35:31
the future the cash flows that were
00:35:33
expected. And when I put in the Oakland
00:35:35
Stars, it came up with an error message
00:35:37
across the top. So I guess I thought not
00:35:41
good. And you could see what was
00:35:42
happening globally with afternoon
00:35:44
newspapers. So I um I literally opened
00:35:48
the the um the Herald. You know,
00:35:52
remember they used to have the big
00:35:53
display ads and there was an ad there
00:35:55
for radio. They called it chief
00:35:57
executive but it was only I mean 35
00:35:59
people 5 million turnover or something
00:36:02
and I got that job. So when I got the
00:36:04
job I went back to INL and said look
00:36:06
I'll repay the fees but they said no
00:36:07
look it was really part of your
00:36:08
remuneration cuz they put me through the
00:36:11
MBA. So I had to switch in in in the
00:36:15
those days the executive MBA you had to
00:36:18
do a project. So rather than doing it on
00:36:20
afternoon newspapers, I was in in the
00:36:23
seat and doing it on um repositioning a
00:36:27
radio station in a deregulated market.
00:36:30
So I did it on I98 FM.
00:36:33
>> Yes. So I98 not a not a particularly
00:36:35
good station. And then you you took it
00:36:37
to number one in the ratings.
00:36:38
>> Yes.
00:36:39
>> Yeah. So you put um made some bold
00:36:40
moves, put Kerry Smith on Breakfast.
00:36:43
>> She would she would have been famous
00:36:44
from Gloss at that point.
00:36:45
>> Yes.
00:36:46
>> And um Pete Sinclair at nights love
00:36:48
songs. That was a genius joke.
00:36:50
>> Iconic.
00:36:51
>> We had the biggest audience of 19 year
00:36:53
olds and it wasn't really targeting 19
00:36:55
year olds. So it was Yeah. No, it's very
00:36:57
it was they were heady days. They really
00:36:59
were.
00:37:00
>> Um very interesting times and and it was
00:37:03
not only the highest rating station. It
00:37:05
was the most profitable radio station in
00:37:07
Oakland. I think 3ZB and Christ Church
00:37:10
was most profitable nationally, but
00:37:11
certainly in Oakland it was the most
00:37:13
profitable.
00:37:14
>> There's a lot of um a lot of big egos. A
00:37:16
lot of big egos. A lot of big
00:37:17
personalities in radio. How did you um
00:37:19
yeah how did you find that?
00:37:21
>> Really interesting. Um the culture
00:37:24
between newspapers and radio was so
00:37:27
different. I mean in newspapers people
00:37:28
are actually quite differential when you
00:37:30
become a senior leader. In radio knee
00:37:33
and so um there's a uh John Taylor was a
00:37:38
program director who came along. I knew
00:37:40
nothing about radio. Um, John Taylor was
00:37:43
brought in as program director at the
00:37:46
same time I went in um running the
00:37:49
station and John said to me, "I know
00:37:52
nothing about business.
00:37:54
You know nothing about radio. Let's
00:37:57
teach each other." And that that was
00:37:59
exactly it. And one of to your point
00:38:01
about egos, he said to me, "There's such
00:38:04
a thing as an ego talent ratio. If they
00:38:07
got a huge amount of talent, then
00:38:08
they're entitled to an ego." And I
00:38:10
thought that was the truest thing I'd
00:38:11
ever heard.
00:38:13
>> You know, if you're a Paul Holmes, you
00:38:14
could or Kerry Smith or whoever, you're
00:38:17
entitled to have an ego, but um there
00:38:20
were others who maybe not quite so much.
00:38:23
>> I sort of found in my experience of
00:38:24
often the case is the the bigger someone
00:38:26
is, the less of an ego they have. Like I
00:38:28
had the privilege of working with um in
00:38:29
the same building with um Blackie Kevin
00:38:31
Black for a while. Um one of the most
00:38:33
talented radio broadcasters in New
00:38:35
Zealand history and no ego on the man at
00:38:36
all.
00:38:37
>> Just a beautiful human.
00:38:39
Yeah.
00:38:40
Um
00:38:42
yeah you um how do you prefer how did
00:38:44
you prepare for difficult conversations
00:38:46
like if you had to let someone go or
00:38:51
that's something that be is never easy
00:38:53
and you do like you know you you learn
00:38:57
through um doing courses like an MBA
00:39:00
there's obviously you have a specific
00:39:02
human resources paper that you do but I
00:39:06
think uh
00:39:10
The most important thing is
00:39:11
understanding and having empathy with
00:39:13
the individual situation. So I think
00:39:16
being prepared to front it yourself, you
00:39:18
know, if there are
00:39:20
um difficult conversations to be had,
00:39:23
not delegating it in appropriately,
00:39:25
making sure that you put as much support
00:39:27
around people as you possibly can
00:39:30
>> and try and make make the exit something
00:39:33
that ends up being as positive as it
00:39:35
possibly can be for the individuals. And
00:39:37
look, I was at at the Oakland Star
00:39:39
before I left. Um, we had an advertising
00:39:43
department uh of about 60 odd people.
00:39:48
And um they had, you know, we were all
00:39:52
given an instruction. We had to reduce
00:39:54
headcount significantly. Advertising had
00:39:56
to use 30 people. The redundancy
00:39:58
packages were so generous that in fact
00:40:01
when we went around and talked to people
00:40:04
and I'd got the person who was the union
00:40:07
representative to come around with me,
00:40:09
the people who who were staying were the
00:40:11
ones in tears because they'd already
00:40:13
spent their redundancy money which they
00:40:15
now were not getting. So it can work in
00:40:18
many different ways. People can use it
00:40:20
as a catalyst to go on and do something
00:40:22
bigger and better and different. And I
00:40:24
think you know that's quite a few years
00:40:26
ago now. If you look now, people are
00:40:29
much more flexible in their approach to
00:40:31
working and and don't have any
00:40:32
expectation they're going to work for a
00:40:34
company for 10, 15, 20 years. And I
00:40:37
think that's a good thing.
00:40:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, after the success of
00:40:40
Radio, you get the job of um CEO of the
00:40:43
radio network.
00:40:46
>> Yeah. I got
00:40:46
>> You see how that came about? That's now
00:40:48
NZME, right?
00:40:50
>> Yes. It's part of NZ NZ me. I got
00:40:52
headunted by Nigel Milan. You might do
00:40:54
you remember that name? He was the
00:40:56
>> Yeah, I do. The bow tie guy.
00:40:57
>> The bow tie guy. So he was he was CEO of
00:41:00
the entire Radio New Zealand empire and
00:41:04
uh I was approached by a head hunter to
00:41:06
go and have a chat with Nigel which I
00:41:09
did and he pulled me into to um run a
00:41:12
subsidiary initially
00:41:15
um which we turned into the radio bureau
00:41:18
which I think is still in existence and
00:41:20
then he appointed me to COO which was
00:41:23
effectively his deputy but responsible
00:41:25
for all of the the revenue side of the
00:41:29
um commercial operations and then the
00:41:32
government put the said they were going
00:41:34
to sell the commercial station. So he
00:41:36
said Sanara and went to work for ARN in
00:41:40
Australia cuz they were intending to put
00:41:41
a bid in and I was down in Wellington
00:41:44
doing something and Nigel rang me up and
00:41:48
said you got to meet me at the
00:41:49
Intercontinental.
00:41:51
Went there and he said I've resigned.
00:41:53
The board's going to appoint you CEO.
00:41:55
This is what's going to happen. So like
00:41:56
that I was
00:41:59
I was there. So big job
00:42:01
>> the crown took it through the sale well
00:42:03
yeah I led it through the sale process.
00:42:05
Brand new CEO
00:42:07
you know like
00:42:10
unbelievable situation really. um very
00:42:14
very supportive investment bankers who
00:42:17
facilitated that sale for the crown who
00:42:20
you know I still I'll remember how much
00:42:23
support they gave me to this day um and
00:42:27
it was a very successful sale process I
00:42:29
think they expected to get around the 60
00:42:30
million they got 89 million for it so I
00:42:34
stayed with the new owners for a couple
00:42:36
of years
00:42:37
Riley's um Empire one of the major
00:42:40
shareholders in ARN
00:42:42
And then um yeah that was that that
00:42:46
became the radio that was the radio
00:42:48
network post the sale.
00:42:49
>> Wow. How do you feel about radio radio
00:42:51
now in the future of radio? Yeah. Do you
00:42:53
>> I always love you look I listen to ZB
00:42:56
every morning like you know if I'm in
00:42:58
the house I've got Mike on. I love
00:43:01
Heather Dupy Allen. I just
00:43:04
>> she's terrifi I wouldn't want to be
00:43:05
interviewed by her. I love listening but
00:43:07
I wouldn't want to be a guest on her
00:43:08
show. She's terrifying. She's she's so
00:43:11
good. today.
00:43:12
>> She's incredibly
00:43:12
>> She's phenomenal.
00:43:13
>> But I think she's fair, you know. I
00:43:15
think I I think they're both superb
00:43:17
broadcasters and I think the caliber of
00:43:19
radio, having listened to a bit of it in
00:43:21
Australia because I'm over there
00:43:22
regularly, but
00:43:24
the caliber of radio in New Zealand is
00:43:26
superb.
00:43:28
>> Is it a is it a sunset industry? Well,
00:43:30
you'd have to if you look at the the
00:43:32
figures in terms of share of advertising
00:43:34
spend, obviously with digital now, it's
00:43:36
it's a smaller percentage, but it's
00:43:39
held, you know, it's not been not been
00:43:41
like TV or radio where it's sort of
00:43:43
fallen off a cliff almost. Um, it's sort
00:43:46
of held around the 10 or 11 or 12% over
00:43:49
a number of years. It might be lower
00:43:50
than that now, seven or eight, I don't
00:43:51
know what, but it's um,
00:43:55
yeah,
00:43:56
I think it's a great medium. M it's
00:43:59
always been um very good at um pivoting
00:44:02
and and evolving and facing whatever
00:44:04
challenges you come its way like like
00:44:07
from um the beginning the in the
00:44:09
invention of TV um you know iPods
00:44:12
whatever challenges have have come up
00:44:14
it's always found a way to sort of um
00:44:15
yeah carry on. Yeah. Yeah. So, it'll be
00:44:18
an interesting future, right?
00:44:19
>> I think so. But, you know, I was talking
00:44:21
to someone this morning actually about
00:44:23
the importance of content. And I think
00:44:25
that's a thing I've always been a
00:44:28
believer that it's um you need to be
00:44:31
platform agnostic and it's really about
00:44:33
great content and obviously people are
00:44:36
accessing news, information, and
00:44:38
entertainment in really different ways
00:44:40
now. And that's fabulous people. But
00:44:42
there are still loads of people watching
00:44:44
TV. There's still loads of people who
00:44:46
look at a digital edition of a newspaper
00:44:48
like I do every morning. You know, you
00:44:50
can get I don't it's not the website,
00:44:52
but you can get the digital edition of
00:44:54
the newspaper on your iPads. And I like
00:44:56
that because you can see how the sub
00:44:58
editors have laid out the stories, what
00:45:01
where the prominence is, particularly in
00:45:03
business, in the business section. So,
00:45:06
and you know, podcasts,
00:45:10
fabulous ways of accessing a whole bunch
00:45:12
of stuff now.
00:45:15
Yeah, one thing I love about like this
00:45:16
podcast, just the long form interview.
00:45:18
It's like um it allows people to like
00:45:20
elaborate in a in an unhurrieded sort of
00:45:22
way. Um yeah, I remember the first the
00:45:25
first episode I did it was on my dining
00:45:26
room table at home. Um and being from
00:45:28
music radio background, I've been
00:45:30
chatting for like 10 minutes to Mitch
00:45:31
James, the singer, and I was like, "Fuck
00:45:33
me, we've been going for 10 minutes." Um
00:45:35
but you can quite easily chat to someone
00:45:37
for a couple of hours.
00:45:38
>> Um yeah, there's a lot to unpack with
00:45:40
someone's life. I love it. I love the
00:45:41
medium. Do you do you listen to many
00:45:42
podcasts? What do you
00:45:44
>> Not a lot. No.
00:45:44
>> You'd been to business ones, wouldn't
00:45:46
you?
00:45:46
>> Yeah. Business ones I listen to. Um but
00:45:50
again, you know, like if I'm driving
00:45:52
into town, I'm more often than not going
00:45:55
in early in the morning, so I'm
00:45:56
listening to the to the radio.
00:46:00
>> Another big role you had um post radio
00:46:02
was um the Fairfax CEO 2005 2009. Um
00:46:06
best and worst moments in that role.
00:46:09
I didn't really have any worse moments.
00:46:11
Really?
00:46:12
>> No, no, that was um
00:46:17
Yeah, that was a dream actually. It was
00:46:19
cuz I was on the board of Fairfax in
00:46:20
Australia and they'd appoint when they
00:46:22
bought the INL assets, they they placed
00:46:25
one of their Australian execs in as a
00:46:27
CEO in New Zealand. Uh and he wanted to
00:46:30
come back. They thought they had an
00:46:32
internal succession plan. That didn't
00:46:34
work out. So Fred Helmer, who was the uh
00:46:37
group CEO at the time, said, "Would you
00:46:40
take it on for a fixed term, you know,
00:46:43
get a robust succession plan, which
00:46:44
hadn't obviously happened." Um, so yeah,
00:46:49
and again, that was Oh, I loved it.
00:46:51
>> Yeah.
00:46:52
>> And you were you you you were there and
00:46:54
you were part of the team that um
00:46:56
purchased TradeMe.
00:46:57
>> Yeah. I mean, David cuz Fred Helmer was
00:47:00
replaced by David Kirk. So David came on
00:47:03
and in his inimitable way could see the
00:47:05
way it was going. So he he led that
00:47:09
charge. There were no investment bankers
00:47:11
involved in that transaction. It was
00:47:13
quite amazing.
00:47:14
>> Um but I got to ring Sam Morgan. I was
00:47:17
the first one to make the approach. And
00:47:19
he said, "I'm sick of wankers with fat
00:47:21
fat check books ringing me up asking me
00:47:24
to sell my business." But I don't think
00:47:26
he understood at that point. And he
00:47:28
obviously met and you know the deal was
00:47:30
done. I remember that that announcement
00:47:32
that was some funny stories with that. I
00:47:35
don't think he understood at that point
00:47:37
how serious David was
00:47:40
um until he met him and then the
00:47:43
purchase price which everyone of course
00:47:44
threw up their hands in horror which I
00:47:47
think ended up you know went within 18
00:47:50
months it was sort of less than 10 times
00:47:51
e or something. So
00:47:54
>> 700 million, right?
00:47:54
>> 700 million with an earn out of 50 if
00:47:57
and which they got because they that was
00:47:59
sort of over a period of 2 or 3 years I
00:48:01
think.
00:48:01
>> That's an eye watering sum of money even
00:48:03
now. But um yeah, what year was this?
00:48:05
2006.
00:48:06
>> Yep.
00:48:07
>> Yeah. Yes. That's like 19 years ago.
00:48:09
That's a crazy sum of money. So um yeah,
00:48:12
that that quote from Sam Morgan, that's
00:48:13
a great one. What sort of um office had
00:48:15
he had previously? I'm guessing nowhere
00:48:17
in that sort of vicinity. I don't I have
00:48:18
no idea what the quantum was before, but
00:48:20
he'd had obviously lots of approaches.
00:48:23
>> Why did Why did you guys see see it
00:48:25
being a $700 million company that was
00:48:28
worthwhile purchase?
00:48:30
>> I think, you know, I'd give all credit
00:48:31
to David. He could say see the way, you
00:48:34
know, the migration of classifides out
00:48:36
of of newspapers was already happening,
00:48:39
but that was only going to accelerate.
00:48:42
So the rivers of gold was what we used
00:48:44
to call, you know, the classifides in
00:48:47
the newspapers. And we were getting the
00:48:49
comparison is we were getting $11 a
00:48:51
column centimeter for employment ads. We
00:48:53
were getting $4 a column centimeter for
00:48:55
real estate. So once that you know that
00:48:57
market went and and the real estate
00:49:00
started to go um you could see what the
00:49:04
potential was for,
00:49:07
you know, the cars
00:49:09
um as well. you could see the potential
00:49:12
for the business or he could see the
00:49:14
potential for the business.
00:49:16
>> What what what did that negotiation
00:49:17
process look like?
00:49:19
>> Um just David and um the CFO at the time
00:49:25
and I think the general counsel was in
00:49:28
the background negotiating and
00:49:31
>> coming up. What was the opening bit?
00:49:33
>> I have no idea.
00:49:34
>> Wow. And what what's um what was David
00:49:37
Kirk like to work with or work for? best
00:49:39
leader I've ever worked for. Yeah.
00:49:40
>> Why? What made him so good?
00:49:42
>> Uh because he demanded accountability,
00:49:46
but he was absolutely non-political and
00:49:50
without fear or favor.
00:49:52
So, you know, when I'm dealing with
00:49:54
chief executives or um
00:49:58
or senior people
00:50:00
about performance reviews and we're
00:50:02
setting up KPIs,
00:50:05
I've still, you know, there are probably
00:50:07
appropriately a lot less complex now
00:50:11
than they were. But as CEO of a New
00:50:14
Zealand business, she had the set of
00:50:16
criteria which is not only about eBar
00:50:18
and bottom line and stuff but also
00:50:21
readership circulation, you know, all so
00:50:24
sustainable things cuz it's actually
00:50:26
relatively easy to pull a lever in any
00:50:28
given year and maximize your profit. But
00:50:30
so they were very carefully calibrated
00:50:34
um performance criteria set up each year
00:50:38
and that's what you sat down and you had
00:50:40
the conversation at the half year. How
00:50:41
are you going? How are you going? How
00:50:43
you going? And at the end of the year,
00:50:44
that's that was it. So, like there was
00:50:46
no no politics involved. This is this is
00:50:50
what's expected of you. He was
00:50:51
incredibly supportive. You know, I'd
00:50:53
speak to him probably once or twice a
00:50:56
week. I was part of the wider the
00:50:58
Australasian leadership team, so I'd go
00:51:00
over there on a regular basis. He just
00:51:02
knew how to
00:51:05
he knew how to get the best out of
00:51:06
people.
00:51:08
>> So, the NZU is in good hands,
00:51:10
>> I think. So yeah. Yeah. Well, oh um
00:51:14
yeah. In August 2007, it was announced
00:51:16
that Fairfax would have to lay off 500
00:51:18
staff in Australia and New Zealand, but
00:51:20
I think more in New Zealand than
00:51:21
Australia.
00:51:23
Like as a leader, how do you work
00:51:24
through something as challenging as
00:51:25
that?
00:51:26
>> Yeah, it's a conversation I had with you
00:51:28
before is that it's very difficult. But
00:51:32
and I think the interesting thing too in
00:51:34
that situation
00:51:36
um with unions involved and Andrew
00:51:39
Little was actually the head of the
00:51:40
union at that stage.
00:51:42
>> If they can understand this these are
00:51:45
there are genuine reasons for these cuts
00:51:48
to have to happen.
00:51:49
>> And if you can get them to work
00:51:51
alongside you and at least not be
00:51:53
sabotaging what you're trying to do, I
00:51:55
think that's a big start. And then it's
00:51:58
all of the things that I talked about
00:51:59
before. You've got to pay appropriate
00:52:02
redundancy packages and some of them are
00:52:04
contractual. Sometimes you might you you
00:52:07
know make additional allowances putting
00:52:10
in support like getting CVs done
00:52:13
placement outplacement all of that stuff
00:52:16
offering EAP support. M
00:52:20
>> um
00:52:22
but I and also making sure that whatever
00:52:26
the structure is that remains will
00:52:29
actually work cuz I think we've seen
00:52:31
quite a few examples of that over the
00:52:33
years of where a whole bunch of people
00:52:36
get made redundant and then they have to
00:52:37
start back filling again quite quickly
00:52:39
cuz it just you know starts falling
00:52:41
apart.
00:52:42
>> Yeah. Do it once, do it right.
00:52:43
>> Yeah.
00:52:44
>> Yeah. Um, another thing that was going
00:52:47
on for you personally during um your
00:52:50
time at Fairfax, um, the the Feltech
00:52:53
stuff from um, yeah, how how are you
00:52:56
able to focus on on on Fairfax and doing
00:52:58
a great job there when you've got this
00:52:59
this bubbling in the background?
00:53:01
>> I'd left the Felt I'd left the Felt
00:53:04
board. I left all of the boards I was on
00:53:06
when I went back into Fairfax except
00:53:09
Oakland airport and Fred had actually
00:53:11
said to me, "Keep one board cuz it's
00:53:12
good to have your head out of the
00:53:14
business." and and that that was a good
00:53:16
piece of advice. Um I was very lucky to
00:53:19
be in Fairfax, I think, cuz you know the
00:53:22
Feltics thing to me it was devastating.
00:53:24
It was devastating for 20 years. Um but
00:53:28
having the distraction of Fairfax, I'd
00:53:30
get to work in the morning. I
00:53:31
>> distraction. That's funny.
00:53:32
>> Well, no, it is. It's just like you
00:53:34
don't have time to think about anything
00:53:36
else when you're running a major company
00:53:37
like that,
00:53:39
>> you know? It's like,
00:53:42
>> so I'd get there at 6:00 or 6:30 in the
00:53:44
morning and I'd leave at 6:00 at night.
00:53:46
I'd look at the clock at 2:00 and think,
00:53:48
"Oh my god, is it that time already?"
00:53:51
Cuz you you really want another four
00:53:53
hours in your day. There's so much
00:53:54
happening.
00:53:56
>> So I I think that was Yeah, I'm I'm very
00:53:59
glad I had that at that time.
00:54:01
>> Yes. So So the Felix thing for anyone
00:54:03
that that doesn't doesn't know what
00:54:04
we're talking about. Yeah. How how do
00:54:06
you explain it or how do you describe it
00:54:07
in a couple of sentences?
00:54:09
Um, Feltex was a company which listed on
00:54:12
the stock exchange
00:54:14
and in a short period of time started
00:54:18
encountering difficulties and when you
00:54:20
list on the stock exchange is not the
00:54:22
case now they've changed the rules but
00:54:24
in those days you had to put out what's
00:54:26
called a PFI which is prospective
00:54:28
financial information for an 18month
00:54:31
period and those are the goals that
00:54:33
investors expect you to meet and that's
00:54:35
the basis on which they invest.
00:54:37
Nothing's obviously,
00:54:39
you know, you can never guarantee those
00:54:41
outcomes, but that's the expectation.
00:54:43
Um, Feltx didn't make its forecasts. M
00:54:47
>> so uh when that became apparent massive
00:54:51
drop in the share price um and then
00:54:56
uh you know um class litigation funders
00:55:01
came in involved and so there was an
00:55:05
ongoing court case so which had the
00:55:08
directors in the frame.
00:55:11
>> So yes so there there was a time there
00:55:12
where there was even like a risk of like
00:55:14
prosecution right? Uh I was never
00:55:17
because I'd left the board by the stage
00:55:19
that the um the there was an action
00:55:23
taken I think by the predecessor of Indi
00:55:28
um against the directors who were there
00:55:30
at the time and this was about
00:55:32
categorization of debt so highly
00:55:36
esoteric but whether whether the debt
00:55:38
was current or non-current which is an
00:55:42
important delineation in the balance
00:55:45
sheet of any company and the directors
00:55:47
had got advice from um one of the big
00:55:50
five accountancy firms. Um reinforcing
00:55:55
that how they'd categorize the debt was
00:55:57
correct.
00:55:58
>> Um there was a difference of opinion and
00:56:02
they were actually facing criminal
00:56:03
action at one point which was would have
00:56:06
been horrendous. They were totally
00:56:08
exonerated.
00:56:09
>> Yeah.
00:56:09
>> On that. So but I wasn't part of that. I
00:56:12
was part of the class action which
00:56:15
eventually failed.
00:56:16
>> What What's it like um being in the
00:56:18
being part of the news cycle for
00:56:20
something like this?
00:56:21
>> Well, it was interesting going into to
00:56:23
Fairfax. So, I had um you know,
00:56:27
obviously I said proactively to the
00:56:30
reporters, you treat me like you treat
00:56:33
anyone else. It makes no difference that
00:56:34
I'm chief executive of this company. And
00:56:37
they did. Yeah. It's hideous. you wake
00:56:40
up in the morning and you're dreading
00:56:41
what you might read. But um it's another
00:56:44
thing you just have to put your head
00:56:46
down and live through. And it has made
00:56:48
me a much better director.
00:56:50
>> You know, I I guess the ultimate
00:56:52
vindication was I was asked by the
00:56:54
national government to to lead uh Mighty
00:56:57
River Power now Mercury through the
00:56:59
first of the MOM processes. And I think
00:57:02
some of that was because they trusted me
00:57:04
and they knew that doing a listing I'd
00:57:07
learned all the, you know, the the hard
00:57:10
way what can go wrong and what you have
00:57:12
to do. And fortunately, that was
00:57:15
incredibly successful.
00:57:16
>> Yeah. There there's that theory that you
00:57:18
learn um more from your losses than than
00:57:21
your wins. You you'd agree with that? I
00:57:23
think most directors who sit around a
00:57:25
table want people next to them who have
00:57:27
got some scars on their backs
00:57:30
>> because if you never had it go wrong,
00:57:31
you know, I used to think I work so
00:57:34
hard. I read everything. Um, you know,
00:57:36
I'm a really good director. I know what
00:57:37
I'm doing. Nothing can ever go wrong.
00:57:39
Well, that's just so
00:57:42
so wide in the mark. Can happen,
00:57:45
>> you know, for a variety of reasons.
00:57:48
H
00:57:48
>> how was your mental health during that
00:57:50
period?
00:57:51
Um, I probably came when it first hit,
00:57:56
I it it affected me massively. And
00:58:01
again, if so, anybody wants to go and
00:58:02
find my book, I actually put did a whole
00:58:05
chapter on the Felteex experience. And
00:58:08
it was so bad. I I I've heard about this
00:58:11
since, but I I couldn't,
00:58:14
you know, I have vitamin pills and stuff
00:58:15
in the morning. I couldn't swallow the
00:58:17
vitamin pills. like it was just
00:58:20
and I wasn't eating so I lost a huge
00:58:23
amount of weight and I remember Brian
00:58:25
used to get up and try and feed me so he
00:58:28
knows the thing I love most in the world
00:58:29
which I never indulge myself with is
00:58:31
musli with cream on it and he'd try and
00:58:33
tempt me with that in the morning to get
00:58:35
me to you know it was it was pretty bad
00:58:39
but he again you know you got someone
00:58:41
like if I hadn't had him god knows what
00:58:43
would have happened
00:58:44
>> yeah what what toll did it take on them
00:58:45
the family
00:58:47
Um
00:58:50
Brian was stoic and I think because he's
00:58:55
not involved in business he probably
00:58:58
you know he he could read the the
00:59:00
newspapers and stuff but um but it was
00:59:03
good he was removed and probably didn't
00:59:07
really
00:59:08
>> he he understood enough about what was
00:59:10
happening to me but maybe didn't
00:59:12
understand all the implications of it
00:59:14
which is probably a good thing
00:59:16
>> if Um, yeah, professionally that that's
00:59:18
the most challenging chapter of your
00:59:20
life, right?
00:59:20
>> Totally.
00:59:21
>> By far by a long way. If someone told
00:59:23
you when you were going through that
00:59:24
that you'd eventually become a dame and
00:59:26
be inducted into the New Zealand
00:59:27
Business Hall of Fame, would you have
00:59:28
could you have believed them at the
00:59:29
time?
00:59:31
>> I would have been happy just knowing I
00:59:32
survived.
00:59:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, not only survived, but
00:59:35
thrived, right?
00:59:39
Um, I've been incredibly I've been
00:59:41
incredibly lucky and I you know people
00:59:44
who put trust in me when they could have
00:59:48
>> not done that and I'm incredibly
00:59:50
grateful for that.
00:59:51
>> Yeah.
00:59:53
So all the board stuff like what does it
00:59:56
mean exactly and what works involved
01:00:00
>> being a director? What the work
01:00:01
involved?
01:00:02
>> Yeah.
01:00:02
>> Yeah. Um
01:00:04
>> like h how can you be on so many at one
01:00:06
time?
01:00:07
>> Well, I'm not on a lot. I'm only on
01:00:09
three now and I sort of on four.
01:00:12
>> That sounds that's a lot by most people.
01:00:14
>> And it like it it that is a big workload
01:00:17
I think especially with the chairmanship
01:00:18
is probably the equivalent of three or
01:00:20
four directorships I think. Um
01:00:25
so what's involved? You really have to
01:00:27
understand the business. You have to
01:00:28
understand the industry. So you have to
01:00:31
you know and have an have an interest in
01:00:33
the business and the industry if you you
01:00:35
know I could not go and work on the
01:00:37
board of a baked bean factory or you
01:00:39
know and for me it's got to matter for
01:00:41
New Zealand.
01:00:42
>> Why why couldn't you why couldn't you
01:00:44
work on the board of a baked bean
01:00:45
factory? cuz it wouldn't have any
01:00:46
interest and I wouldn't I wouldn't think
01:00:48
I was delivering any value
01:00:50
>> right
01:00:51
>> for the country or
01:00:53
>> you know just wouldn't yeah it wouldn't
01:00:57
light my fire but there's a lot I don't
01:01:00
know whether people who aspire to be
01:01:01
directors um understand just how much
01:01:05
reading is involved
01:01:07
>> so
01:01:09
you know this time of year we're doing
01:01:11
halfearly accounts for a lot of
01:01:13
companies
01:01:15
So in August normally it's year end
01:01:17
accounts that are being finalized.
01:01:20
That's extraordinary. Like I've got
01:01:22
origin next week. There's about 333
01:01:25
pages just for the audit pack. And it's
01:01:27
not like light reading. You have to
01:01:29
actually read every single word of it
01:01:31
and check the numbers and do all that
01:01:33
stuff. So you go into a meeting if
01:01:36
you've done all that you think good I'm
01:01:37
on top of everything. And then it's the
01:01:39
quality of the discussion and having
01:01:42
people who can
01:01:45
um one elicit the right information from
01:01:48
management. So making sure you are
01:01:50
asking the right questions but asking
01:01:51
them in a way that doesn't alienate the
01:01:53
executive team but two then the
01:01:56
discussion between the directors. So so
01:02:00
there's there's
01:02:02
there's a um a synergy benefit in having
01:02:06
input from variety of people. Often I'll
01:02:08
go in and think, "God, that's
01:02:10
interesting that, you know, there's a
01:02:12
particular decision has to be made. I
01:02:14
wonder what so and so will think about
01:02:15
this." I might have a view, but I'm also
01:02:18
conscious that that view could change
01:02:20
with somebody who's more experienced in
01:02:22
that particular area or has, you know, a
01:02:25
better perspective on it, may have a
01:02:27
different point of view. And I think
01:02:29
that's
01:02:32
the behavioral elements of corporate
01:02:34
governance are the most important thing
01:02:36
to me. Um because unless you've got that
01:02:38
dynamic working, you won't get the best
01:02:40
decisions, you'll get some people who
01:02:43
will try and close it now. Oh, that'll
01:02:44
never work. Now, that to me makes the
01:02:46
hair on the back of my neck stand out
01:02:48
because it just closes people down. And
01:02:51
you know, especially as chair, you've
01:02:52
got to elicit all of the wisdom that is
01:02:55
around the table.
01:02:57
So, there's a lot involved in it. you
01:02:59
really have to um like being in a room
01:03:02
for, you know, sometimes eight, nine
01:03:04
hours,
01:03:06
which is it's pretty intense. Um
01:03:10
but there's, you know, it's very
01:03:12
rewarding when things are going well.
01:03:15
>> Yeah. If if things are going well at a
01:03:17
company, um you've been involved with
01:03:18
warehouse, which has had some um retail
01:03:20
challenges in in recent years. Um yeah.
01:03:24
Is is it fun when it's going well?
01:03:26
Oh, look. It's a ball when it's going
01:03:28
well. Yeah.
01:03:29
>> Yeah.
01:03:29
>> Does that make it easier?
01:03:31
>> I suppose.
01:03:31
>> Um, it makes it more enjoyable. You
01:03:33
still you've still got this the work.
01:03:35
You've still got to do the work and you
01:03:36
can't be complacent because, you know,
01:03:39
most businesses in New Zealand are in
01:03:41
incredibly competitive environments
01:03:44
quite apart from the u economic
01:03:47
conditions that we've all lived through
01:03:48
for the last five or six years. So, um,
01:03:52
yeah, if it's if it's going well, that's
01:03:55
it is, you know, it's fun, but you've
01:03:57
still got to do the work. When it's
01:03:58
going badly, it's a grind.
01:04:02
>> Do they pay well?
01:04:05
>> Do they pay well? Pay is comparative,
01:04:07
isn't it? you know like um
01:04:12
on the big boards
01:04:16
it's better
01:04:18
compared with Australia it's not good
01:04:22
>> but having said that you know Treasury
01:04:26
have probably got a database of I don't
01:04:27
know 2,000 3,000 people dying to be a
01:04:31
director on a crown board so there's no
01:04:33
shortage of aspirants to do to do
01:04:36
governance jobs the top directors and
01:04:40
obviously in the last 5 years or six 10
01:04:44
years maybe there's been more of a move
01:04:46
to get women at 50/50 representation.
01:04:51
So uh the women who are
01:04:54
who are highly sought after
01:04:57
um
01:04:59
have got the opportunity to have quite a
01:05:01
good portfolio as are the the more
01:05:03
senior men
01:05:05
>> who are still operating.
01:05:08
At this stage of of your life, you're
01:05:09
not doing it for the money anyway, are
01:05:10
you?
01:05:11
>> No. But I don't think anybody wants to
01:05:13
feel exploited either. And I think the
01:05:15
thing that really interests me is if
01:05:17
somebody in IODD should do this analysis
01:05:20
is what is the
01:05:23
>> what's the wedge like between CEO
01:05:25
remuneration and director remuneration
01:05:29
because most boards now you know if it's
01:05:32
been tough economically and the results
01:05:34
haven't been stellar they say no we
01:05:36
won't put through it we won't ask
01:05:38
shareholders for a fee increase this
01:05:40
year we won't do it this year we won't
01:05:41
do it this year whereas Almost without
01:05:45
exception,
01:05:46
CEOs and executive teams tend to get
01:05:49
incremental
01:05:51
increases each year almost without
01:05:54
exception.
01:05:55
>> And they also have at risk pay. So
01:05:57
short-term incentives, long-term
01:05:59
incentives.
01:06:00
>> So it'll be interesting to see what
01:06:01
happen because my perception is there's
01:06:03
there's a growing gap between what
01:06:07
directors get and what what executive
01:06:10
get. M Are there any um company boards
01:06:13
that you haven't been on that you'd love
01:06:14
to sink your teeth into?
01:06:18
>> Oh, it's a bit late in the day for me
01:06:20
now. Um
01:06:21
>> is that why why do you why do you think
01:06:22
>> I think you still got you've got so much
01:06:24
to offer, right?
01:06:26
>> Uh that's very kind of you to say. Yeah.
01:06:28
I think
01:06:30
>> I'm really interested in um things that
01:06:34
matter for New Zealand.
01:06:36
So, uh, I'd never say never.
01:06:41
I'd never say never, but yeah, it'd have
01:06:43
to be something pretty interesting to
01:06:45
drag me in again. Now,
01:06:48
>> are you ever going to fully retire?
01:06:52
>> Um, am I ever going to fully retire? No,
01:06:56
I think I'll always have something that
01:06:57
I'm working on.
01:07:00
>> Um, yeah. What personal qualities have
01:07:03
made you great at it?
01:07:04
>> Great at what?
01:07:06
being a being a a director.
01:07:08
>> Um, I wouldn't say I'm great at it.
01:07:10
Look, I'd say
01:07:10
>> Oh, come on. You don't You're being very
01:07:12
very modest, by the way.
01:07:13
>> No, I'm not.
01:07:14
>> You You You don't
01:07:15
>> I've had highs and I've had lows. I
01:07:17
think
01:07:19
>> I've got a lot of experience now.
01:07:21
>> I think the MBA helped enormously. I
01:07:24
think I've got really good
01:07:26
>> judgment of people. I think that really
01:07:29
helps. And I think I've got an okay EQ.
01:07:37
Um, and good at tough conversations.
01:07:40
>> Yeah, I think it's ongoing conversations
01:07:43
though, Dom. I think, you know, if
01:07:44
you're dealing with people on an ongoing
01:07:46
basis, if the rubber does meet the road,
01:07:49
then you've got a base there of trust
01:07:52
and respect. Hopefully, that that helps.
01:07:56
>> Um, yeah. What sort of feedback do you
01:07:58
get from people? Are people intimidated
01:07:59
by you?
01:08:00
>> Some people say that, which I can I
01:08:03
>> Do you like that? No, I don't.
01:08:05
>> I think it's ridiculous.
01:08:08
No, I I no, you know, and I think um
01:08:14
you know, a couple of people made
01:08:15
contact since the announcement about
01:08:16
A&Z, a couple of the staff, and it's
01:08:18
really interesting because
01:08:21
they know I do interrogate because I've
01:08:23
read everything and but they
01:08:28
and they're being kind and it's only a
01:08:29
couple, but but they point to things
01:08:31
like that that's made me sharper and
01:08:34
more focused and thinking about things.
01:08:36
And when I think about going back to
01:08:38
David Kirk, one of the things I learned
01:08:40
from him is we prepare as an exec team
01:08:43
in New Zealand up the bloody yin-yang,
01:08:45
you know, with a presentation. This is
01:08:46
and it was all going, you know, it was
01:08:48
going fabulously
01:08:50
and this is what we're going to do and
01:08:51
all the rest of it. And he would walk in
01:08:54
um with the CFO and they'd be incredibly
01:08:58
supportive, but they come out and say,
01:08:59
"Well, what about this?" And it was
01:09:02
something we hadn't thought about. And
01:09:03
when they leave the building, we'd say,
01:09:05
"Bugger. Why, you know, how do we miss
01:09:08
that? Why didn't we get that? And I So,
01:09:10
as a director, you can do that in a
01:09:13
constructive and positive way that pe
01:09:18
helps people to focus and strive on how
01:09:21
can I make this the best it can possibly
01:09:23
be because that's what we're all charged
01:09:24
with doing on behalf of
01:09:26
>> shareholders or whoever the owners are.
01:09:28
Um, then you know that that's
01:09:33
you feel good about that.
01:09:34
>> Mhm. got all the all the reading you
01:09:37
have to do. How do you retain all that
01:09:39
information?
01:09:40
>> Really good question. Really good
01:09:43
question.
01:09:46
So, um
01:09:49
yeah, Cameron O'Reilly, as I said, was
01:09:51
was a um the shareholder representative
01:09:55
at the radio network, and he'd arrived.
01:09:58
Have you ever seen him?
01:10:00
>> No.
01:10:00
>> Okay. So, he's Tony O'Reilly's son.
01:10:03
Stunning guy. like stunning.
01:10:06
Um,
01:10:08
and he would come in
01:10:11
and he would have this big exercise book
01:10:14
and he'd write notes
01:10:17
and then he come to the next meeting and
01:10:19
he'd say in a
01:10:21
charming way and he's stunning looking
01:10:23
guy as well,
01:10:26
um,
01:10:28
okay, you said you were going to do
01:10:29
that. Has that happened? you know not
01:10:32
you know again constructively I thought
01:10:35
that's really impressive so I when I'm
01:10:38
reading because like now I think the
01:10:40
quantum of pageionation for directors
01:10:42
has got bigger and bigger that's my
01:10:44
impression
01:10:46
so I used to take notes and highlight so
01:10:50
we all use um
01:10:53
uh a platform called called diligent
01:10:56
which is where your board papers get
01:10:58
served up and you can highlight write it
01:11:00
and annotate on it, which most people
01:11:03
do. And I also used to make notes about
01:11:05
things that I wanted to,
01:11:07
you know, that that were the most
01:11:09
important things for me. So I had some
01:11:10
sort of context about
01:11:13
um priorities.
01:11:16
Um I've stopped doing that now and I
01:11:18
dictated my thoughts into into my um
01:11:23
phone on the notes
01:11:26
>> package and that way it's there. I get
01:11:29
printed off and it's a record. So, I
01:11:31
have got I have got it there. Otherwise,
01:11:34
you get to the end of 333 pages and
01:11:36
think, "Hell, what have I read?" And a
01:11:38
week down the track when you actually
01:11:39
front up to the meeting, hell, what was
01:11:41
that about?
01:11:43
>> Is there um Yeah. Have have you ever
01:11:46
bluffed it? You know, just like um you
01:11:49
know, just I don't know, skimmed through
01:11:51
the document and No, you've never never
01:11:53
mailed it in. M
01:11:57
>> it's so easy.
01:11:58
>> Do you think some board members have in
01:12:00
various boards you've been on?
01:12:01
>> Yeah.
01:12:04
>> It's a lot of Yeah, it's a lot. It's a
01:12:06
lot of work and a lot of responsibility.
01:12:08
>> Yeah, it is. But you're getting paid for
01:12:10
that.
01:12:10
>> Yeah.
01:12:12
>> Yeah. And look, everybody has a
01:12:15
different style and everybody brings a
01:12:16
different thing. So just because I'm a
01:12:18
nerdy SWAT doesn't mean I'm adding any
01:12:20
more value than anybody else. My view is
01:12:23
unless you really understand what
01:12:25
management are trying to get across and
01:12:26
you and you've got you know the facts
01:12:30
before you head into the meeting then
01:12:31
you're not going to make as valid a
01:12:33
contribution. But having said that there
01:12:35
are some genius people who can wing it a
01:12:39
little bit but still get to the nub of
01:12:42
whatever the the major strategic issue
01:12:45
is and say let's get up to 10,000 ft and
01:12:48
think about this a different way. So,
01:12:50
I'm not I'm not denigrate. I personally
01:12:52
couldn't go to a board meeting without
01:12:54
having read all the papers. I just I'd
01:12:57
stay up all night.
01:12:58
>> Just not in your DNA.
01:13:01
>> I'm too insecure. I think
01:13:06
>> what a career. It's been crazy, hasn't
01:13:08
it? From Are you familiar with the term
01:13:10
tread wife?
01:13:11
>> No.
01:13:12
>> Tread wife. It's a something that sort
01:13:13
of made a resurgence in the last couple
01:13:15
of years. It means um traditional wife.
01:13:17
Um, and I I suppose essentially that's
01:13:20
what you know you were back in the day,
01:13:22
like married young, um, stay-at-home mom
01:13:25
at the age of 21. And, um, you've just,
01:13:28
you know,
01:13:29
punched punched through it and just had
01:13:31
this remarkable career. It's been
01:13:33
awesome.
01:13:35
>> Like I said, I've been very lucky and
01:13:37
very privileged. But yeah, and look, um,
01:13:40
it's interesting. I'm sure it's what we
01:13:44
said before, use it or lose it. I think
01:13:46
using your brain and and having to think
01:13:49
about things different things in
01:13:51
different ways can only be good for you.
01:13:55
>> Um, agism and sexism. Have you
01:13:58
encountered much of either of those? I
01:14:00
suppose agism like in recent years or
01:14:02
decades and sexism through the decades.
01:14:06
>> Agism not so much yet, but I think you
01:14:08
know like it will come. Mhm.
01:14:11
>> Uh and that's when you've got to know
01:14:14
when you're not adding value, when you
01:14:16
do have to bow out,
01:14:17
>> not staying beyond your, you know, the
01:14:20
time that that you should.
01:14:23
>> Sexism. Oh, the really early days. Yeah.
01:14:26
There were some shocking, egregious
01:14:28
examples of people coming into a room
01:14:29
and saying, "Good morning, gentlemen."
01:14:31
when there were two women standing
01:14:32
there, you know, but I just think now
01:14:36
certainly in the corporate environment,
01:14:37
people know they've got to have the best
01:14:39
possible talent around the table,
01:14:42
whether it's executive or or board. And
01:14:44
so,
01:14:46
um,
01:14:48
I work with fabulous guys and I work
01:14:50
with fabulous women and I think we all
01:14:53
look at each other and think that
01:14:55
person's great at this. What are you,
01:14:57
you know what, that person's great at
01:14:58
that. So the sex thing doesn't come into
01:15:01
it or gender thing. But I still think
01:15:05
having having the good the right
01:15:07
representation,
01:15:09
gender is only the first frontier of
01:15:11
diversity and I think that's the other
01:15:13
thing that most boards are working on is
01:15:15
making sure that they are becoming more
01:15:18
ethnically diverse.
01:15:19
>> Yeah. Um
01:15:21
and also one of the dangers I think for
01:15:24
boards is that a lot of the people who
01:15:26
sit around the table are comparatively
01:15:29
very wealthy
01:15:31
>> and especially on the bank board and and
01:15:34
on warehouse really important that you
01:15:36
have people who do understand what it's
01:15:39
like to be hard up have difficulty
01:15:42
finding the money to pay the bills
01:15:44
making ends meet
01:15:46
>> and never being complacent about that.
01:15:49
Oh, the bank board. Um, yeah, you were
01:15:51
on that with um, Sir John John Key.
01:15:54
>> Yeah. How did you find him? Did you Did
01:15:55
you have much of a relationship with him
01:15:57
prior to the A&Z stuff?
01:15:59
>> Yeah, I because of the the whole when I
01:16:02
was at Fairfax is when I first met him
01:16:04
for the CEO and he came in as leader of
01:16:06
the National Party. So, um, he used to
01:16:09
text me every time there was a good poll
01:16:11
for national leading up to the election.
01:16:13
So, yeah, that's his numbers.
01:16:14
>> Yeah. No, I a huge amount of respect for
01:16:17
John. And when he came in as chair of
01:16:20
A&Z, I was over the moon. But again, you
01:16:23
know, whatever he is now is not what
01:16:25
he's always been. And his understanding
01:16:28
about New Zealanders, what their needs
01:16:31
are, intuitive about the things that the
01:16:34
bank should do in that context. So no,
01:16:37
I've got an enormous amount of respect
01:16:39
for him. M yeah, I've done a couple of
01:16:41
um speaking engagements with him and
01:16:43
I've had him on the podcast and uh um
01:16:45
he's I say to people that are sort of
01:16:47
left learning that have been on the
01:16:48
podcast like look if you if you met John
01:16:50
Key he's impossible to dislike.
01:16:52
>> Yeah.
01:16:53
>> Impossible.
01:16:54
>> Yeah.
01:16:55
>> Great guy. Um he he came in here for for
01:16:58
the podcast um left his keys to his
01:17:00
Bentley out there. Um Jazz, who you met
01:17:03
earlier, who's um a Greeny Chloe
01:17:05
Schwarbrook uh supporter. When John
01:17:07
left, she was like, "Oh my god, he's so
01:17:09
lovely."
01:17:10
>> He is. Yeah.
01:17:11
>> She'd never vote for him. But yeah,
01:17:12
lovely guy.
01:17:13
>> Who was brave enough to move his car?
01:17:15
>> Oh, Jazz. Jazz moved it. Yeah.
01:17:17
>> Holy moly.
01:17:19
>> If he saw her car, he would have never
01:17:21
let her behind it. Yeah. Little some
01:17:23
little mitsubby thing. Um but no,
01:17:25
he's great. Um
01:17:28
I've got a card here called Closing
01:17:29
Reflections. I I we we talked about the
01:17:32
the Dame thing briefly before in the
01:17:34
context of um your son Jamie and his
01:17:36
reaction to it. Um yeah, how special is
01:17:39
that? What does that mean to you?
01:17:42
>> Uh yeah, look, it means it doesn't make
01:17:45
any difference really. Um it's lovely to
01:17:49
have, you know, it's a lovely
01:17:51
acknowledgement. My mother would have
01:17:52
been over the moon about it, no doubt.
01:17:55
Um, I think I think that generation
01:17:58
would have thought more about it than
01:18:00
probably contemporary people do today.
01:18:02
>> Also, I suppose cuz they're English and
01:18:04
that connection to the royal family.
01:18:05
>> Yeah, that's right. Um,
01:18:08
I I feel enormously privileged to have
01:18:11
it.
01:18:13
>> Who who went to the ceremony with you?
01:18:16
>> Um, Brian obviously. um my sister, my
01:18:21
younger sister Annie, my niece,
01:18:24
um who I'm very close to, and the two
01:18:26
grandkids.
01:18:28
>> Do you um do you use it as an email sign
01:18:31
off or anything?
01:18:32
>> No, don't.
01:18:33
>> Only No, I'll tell you. I did in the I
01:18:35
did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell
01:18:37
you why. Because I was telling um Jazz
01:18:42
that I was and and JJ that I was I want
01:18:45
to get this burner doodle puppy. I only
01:18:48
saw them for the first time a few weeks
01:18:50
ago in London. It's just so my husband
01:18:53
did some research and found out there is
01:18:54
a breeder in New Zealand. So I emailed
01:18:58
and I did put Dame Joan with his DN Z
01:19:02
cuz I thought that might get me further
01:19:04
up the list. That's pretty shocking. But
01:19:06
no, normally it's just Joan.
01:19:09
>> Yeah.
01:19:09
>> Oh, how good. Oh, congratulations. It's
01:19:12
bloody awesome. It's neat, eh?
01:19:14
>> Yeah, it is neat. And it is. Yeah, it's
01:19:16
I think it's it's like for the for the
01:19:20
wider family because as I said, I was
01:19:22
overseas and my brother-in-law rang me
01:19:24
and said, "Oh, your sisters just burst
01:19:26
into tears." So, it was big. It was a
01:19:28
big deal for them. You know, I'd had six
01:19:30
weeks to get used to the idea, but they
01:19:32
Yeah, that was nice.
01:19:34
>> Do you still Do you still get on the
01:19:35
back of a horse?
01:19:37
>> I'm between horses at the moment, so
01:19:39
that's got to be a priority. I had my
01:19:42
horse for 13 years and when she died I
01:19:44
got a replacement that didn't work out
01:19:46
unfortunately. It's a very naughty
01:19:48
horse. Um so it had to go back to its
01:19:51
owners. Uh but I that's yeah priority
01:19:54
for this year is to
01:19:56
>> get another one cuz it's
01:19:58
>> again it's another massive distraction.
01:20:00
You just can't think of anything else
01:20:01
when you're on the back of a horse which
01:20:04
>> uh not if you got the right horse
01:20:07
>> and that's the important thing. There
01:20:08
are shocking horses, you know, but I had
01:20:11
Genie 13 years, never did anything
01:20:13
treacherous. I never fell off her. She'd
01:20:15
see me if I go out and she saw me from
01:20:17
the paddic. She nick her as if, "Come
01:20:20
on, let's go for a ride."
01:20:22
>> What do you get from um riding horses
01:20:24
that you couldn't get from another hobby
01:20:26
like like gardening?
01:20:30
>> Oh, the connection and the partnership
01:20:31
with the animal. It's just like cuz I
01:20:34
you know I make sure that at least three
01:20:36
of the four legs are on the ground at
01:20:38
any given time. So I don't jump. I don't
01:20:40
do anything dangerous. But you know we
01:20:42
did Dr. um and that's that's really
01:20:47
interesting cuz it's tweaking your leg
01:20:49
muscles effectively and you know moving
01:20:51
your body and having the horse
01:20:54
understand what those signals are about
01:20:55
and then achieving what you want to
01:20:57
achieve. M so no it's and the whole
01:21:01
thing about grooming the horse and
01:21:03
saddling up and just you know trotting
01:21:07
around it's get your head in a different
01:21:09
place.
01:21:10
>> Yeah.
01:21:11
At this stage of life uh how has your
01:21:14
definition of success changed.
01:21:17
>> Peace of mind is is is success for me.
01:21:20
>> Yeah. Have you got that?
01:21:22
>> Uh not at the moment but it'll come.
01:21:25
>> Yeah. Did you have that?
01:21:28
>> Yep. I think so. Yeah.
01:21:30
>> I return. Um, yeah. What you've been
01:21:33
through, it's like just unimaginable
01:21:35
adversity.
01:21:39
>> Yeah.
01:21:40
>> How's your relationship with aging?
01:21:43
>> Aging?
01:21:44
>> Yeah.
01:21:45
>> Aging? Well, I look at people on TV and
01:21:49
think, God, how old are they now? I mean
01:21:51
that's you do sort of think
01:21:54
and and even traveling you look at
01:21:56
people in an airport and think how old
01:21:57
are they how much longer am I going to
01:21:59
be able to do this but I feel as I said
01:22:01
before so healthy so fit
01:22:05
>> um
01:22:07
that it's not an issue at the moment but
01:22:09
I'm very conscious it can change in a
01:22:11
heartbeat you know you can go and get a
01:22:13
diagnosis tomorrow that you're not
01:22:15
expecting so I I think for Brian I it's
01:22:19
about making sure we make the most of
01:22:22
the fit years that we've got left.
01:22:24
>> And you know, having the grandkids, it's
01:22:26
been phenomenal because um
01:22:30
they force you to do different things.
01:22:32
He's had to teach them both to ride
01:22:33
bikes and do all that sort of stuff. So,
01:22:37
you know, that that in itself just keeps
01:22:40
you younger and fitter, I think. So,
01:22:42
we're very lucky.
01:22:43
>> Are you a fun grandmother? What what do
01:22:45
they call you? Do you have a special
01:22:47
>> grands? Grand. Yeah, I think I'm fun.
01:22:51
Yeah, I my my granddaughter's heavily
01:22:53
into a group. You all never heard of
01:22:55
them called the Garden.
01:22:57
>> No, I never heard of that. What is that
01:22:58
music group?
01:22:59
>> Yep.
01:23:00
>> Yeah, she's heavily into music.
01:23:02
>> Um, so I do the decent thing and search
01:23:05
the web and find merchandise and get her
01:23:08
t-shirts that she likes and
01:23:10
>> try and be Yeah. Yeah. No, we have a
01:23:12
good time.
01:23:13
>> Good on you. When when you reflect on
01:23:15
your life and career, what are you most
01:23:16
proud of professional professionally and
01:23:18
personally?
01:23:19
>> My marriage.
01:23:20
>> Yeah.
01:23:22
Yeah. Rock solid. Eh, did you ever come
01:23:25
I mean, no, no relationship's ever
01:23:27
perfect. Did you ever come close to
01:23:28
>> Oh, we have massive rows.
01:23:30
>> Yeah.
01:23:30
>> You know, like we have massive arrows,
01:23:33
don't get me wrong, but it is wrong.
01:23:36
>> Oh, Jesus can be anything.
01:23:38
>> Could be anything. He He could look at
01:23:41
me the wrong way if I'm in a bad mood
01:23:43
and we'd have a massive row.
01:23:46
>> Oh, that's wonderful.
01:23:49
What would you say your best and worst
01:23:50
habits are?
01:23:54
>> Oh god,
01:23:56
what are my worst habits?
01:24:00
>> What would Brian say?
01:24:04
>> I don't know. You'd really have to ask
01:24:06
him.
01:24:08
So after all these years he you know he
01:24:10
probably is used to it. Best habits is
01:24:12
just getting up early in the morning.
01:24:14
Really?
01:24:14
>> Best habit? Yeah. You are you naturally
01:24:17
an early riser?
01:24:18
>> Yeah. Cuz we talked before about when
01:24:19
you were doing your MBA in your mid to
01:24:21
late 30s and you were getting up at 3:00
01:24:22
a.m. What's
01:24:23
>> I can I still do that if I've got a huge
01:24:25
workload?
01:24:26
>> Right.
01:24:26
>> If I get up and do that, you imagine by
01:24:28
8:00 I've done 5 hours reading. That's
01:24:31
and no interruptions, no distractions.
01:24:33
If anybody's listening and wants a piece
01:24:35
of advice, you know, if you have it,
01:24:38
just the best way to chew through a huge
01:24:40
workload, you can't do it. It's not
01:24:41
sustainable to do it, you know, for a
01:24:43
long long period of time, but just get
01:24:44
up, get through it.
01:24:47
>> Um,
01:24:48
>> what time are you normally in bed?
01:24:50
>> Oh, 9:00.
01:24:51
>> 9.
01:24:52
Do do how much sleep do you need? Like
01:24:54
if you if you were waking up naturally,
01:24:56
when when do you think you'd get up?
01:24:58
>> Um, hard to know. like
01:25:03
you know we were in Sydney u Melbourne
01:25:05
for the tennis last weekend so you know
01:25:07
probably go to bed at 10:00 and probably
01:25:09
wake up at 6 or seven or something.
01:25:11
Yeah,
01:25:12
>> but it's the quality of sleep and I know
01:25:15
that's another thing I'm very lucky
01:25:16
with. I I sleep like a log. So
01:25:19
>> yeah,
01:25:20
>> never have any problem falling asleep
01:25:21
and I know a lot of people have
01:25:23
difficulty with that. Um, God, the
01:25:25
thought of getting up at 3:00 a.m. to
01:25:27
read like a 300page
01:25:29
document that I need to retain the
01:25:32
information for for a board meeting,
01:25:33
that sounds horrendous.
01:25:35
>> Well, if you know you've got to do it
01:25:38
and then and then, like I said,
01:25:41
by 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, you've done the
01:25:44
lion share of what you're going to have
01:25:46
to do.
01:25:47
>> That's, you know, it's a pretty good
01:25:49
incentive. And and poor O'Brien gets up
01:25:51
at 3:00 and brings gets me a coffee as
01:25:53
well and then goes back to bed,
01:25:54
obviously, but
01:25:55
>> Oh, does he?
01:25:56
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:57
That's wonderful, isn't it?
01:25:58
>> Yep. It's wonderful. He gets to go back
01:26:01
to bed. I don't I don't
01:26:04
>> Well, that that doesn't sound like the
01:26:06
sort of man that you want to argue with
01:26:07
over pointless things. Cut the cut him
01:26:09
some slack.
01:26:11
>> Um, what are you most afraid of?
01:26:19
losing losing something that's precious
01:26:22
to me. I think having been through the
01:26:23
Jamie thing, I think
01:26:25
>> Yeah. I
01:26:27
>> As in Brian, something happened.
01:26:29
>> Yeah. Or the grandkids or something, you
01:26:31
know.
01:26:33
>> When was the last time you cried? Are
01:26:35
you crying most days at the moment?
01:26:37
>> Um
01:26:39
I'm only ever at the moment 30 seconds
01:26:42
away from crying, I think. You know,
01:26:43
like and stuff triggers it. The worst
01:26:45
thing is being in the car and thinking
01:26:47
about something cuz I used to typically
01:26:49
call him on my way home from a meeting
01:26:51
or something. I'll be driving down the
01:26:52
motorway and think I'll give Jamie a
01:26:54
call and that you know or I'll something
01:26:57
will come up and I I'll remember. I'm
01:27:00
not I've not been a crier. So it would
01:27:01
have been years before this that I
01:27:03
cried.
01:27:04
>> Um but you know that's it's it's it's
01:27:07
part of the the process. So um I'm not
01:27:12
asking for sympathy about that. It's
01:27:13
just fact of life. And the best thing
01:27:16
about working and having something else
01:27:19
to do is there's a lot of time that I'm
01:27:22
not thinking about it.
01:27:25
>> You've held it together really well
01:27:26
today. I found myself getting emotional.
01:27:29
Um on a couple of occasions, yeah, I
01:27:32
don't know how you're doing it, but it's
01:27:33
um yeah, it's it's it's um it's Yeah, I
01:27:38
don't know what it is. I was going to
01:27:39
say it's inspiring, but I don't know if
01:27:40
that's the right word.
01:27:42
>> Yeah. Yeah, I look when you there's so
01:27:44
many brave people, Dom, when you see
01:27:47
them there, you look around and people
01:27:49
who are I'm on on Sweet Louise, which is
01:27:51
a um
01:27:54
a charity that's uh looks after women
01:27:56
with metastatic breast cancer. And you
01:27:59
see a lot of these women now being
01:28:01
diagnosed in their 30s and 40s with
01:28:04
young kids. I look at that as bravery.
01:28:08
>> You know, they metastatic breast cancer
01:28:10
is incurable. you can live a, you know,
01:28:12
a reasonable length of time, but those
01:28:15
those women have kids, you know, they
01:28:17
got families. Their whole lives are
01:28:20
just, you know, with one diagnosis,
01:28:22
that's it. Um, how do you cope with
01:28:25
that? That's that's bravery.
01:28:30
>> Yeah. There there's that Yeah, there's
01:28:31
that saying, you just have to keep
01:28:32
putting one foot in front of the other.
01:28:34
And I suppose that's true, isn't it,
01:28:36
with these things?
01:28:37
>> Yeah. I think it's interesting. Um, I
01:28:39
went to see Oprah Winfrey in December,
01:28:42
uh, when she was here and she got a
01:28:44
question from the audience and it said,
01:28:48
"How would you describe the difference
01:28:49
between coping and healing?" And I
01:28:52
thought, "God, that's an interesting
01:28:53
question."
01:28:55
And
01:28:57
Oprah said that she also said it was a
01:29:01
great question, but she said
01:29:03
that you can cope with stuff, but unless
01:29:06
you actually go in and deal with what it
01:29:09
is that's causing the issue, you're
01:29:11
never really going to heal.
01:29:12
>> So, I'm sort of a little bit conscious
01:29:14
of that at the moment. I think I'm
01:29:16
coping. I don't know that I'm healing.
01:29:18
>> Have you spoken to anyone like a
01:29:20
professional?
01:29:20
>> No.
01:29:21
>> No.
01:29:22
Do you think that would that would be
01:29:23
beneficial or do you just prefer to sort
01:29:26
of work things out internally?
01:29:28
>> Yeah, look, I've never been someone who
01:29:32
thought of talking to a therapist would
01:29:34
drive me nuts. You're probably the
01:29:36
closest thing that I've come to that.
01:29:38
Um, so I don't know. We'll just just
01:29:41
see.
01:29:41
>> Yeah.
01:29:41
>> See how we go.
01:29:42
>> You coping all right though?
01:29:45
>> Yeah, cuz you know I've got loads of
01:29:48
distractions. So,
01:29:51
>> do you have any regrets?
01:29:53
>> Do I have any regrets?
01:29:59
>> Oh, no. I don't think so.
01:30:01
>> I could have changed a whole bunch of
01:30:03
things,
01:30:05
>> you know, but
01:30:06
>> hindsight,
01:30:07
>> but it's hindsight. And then,
01:30:10
>> you know, you change one thing and what
01:30:12
else changes as a result. So I have to
01:30:14
be have to say I'm very happy with you
01:30:18
know my lot in life.
01:30:20
>> Um apart from you know Jamie it's it's
01:30:23
I've been incredibly lucky.
01:30:25
>> Yeah.
01:30:26
What about legacy? Is legacy something
01:30:28
you think about?
01:30:32
Like when it when it's um when it's all
01:30:34
done, how would you like to be
01:30:35
remembered?
01:30:39
>> Yeah. Look, I I don't I don't know about
01:30:42
legacy. I think I think people just with
01:30:45
a very few exceptions people,
01:30:49
you know, even in corporate life, people
01:30:50
move on. You think, "Oh, I wonder what's
01:30:52
happened to so and so and so and so."
01:30:53
So, it's just like, "No, I hope I'm, you
01:30:57
know, my family. I hope that they
01:31:01
remember me.
01:31:03
Grandkids, nieces, and nephew, and so
01:31:05
forth." Um, but yeah, it's no, it's not
01:31:08
something I've ever thought about or
01:31:10
focused on really.
01:31:13
Um that that's such a good way to live
01:31:15
your life. Yeah. You got to you have to
01:31:17
do it for yourself. Eh, and you have to
01:31:18
make the most of it because Yeah. What
01:31:21
else is there? Not very few people are
01:31:23
remembered.
01:31:24
>> Yeah. I I just Yeah. I think of legacy
01:31:26
and and people who deserve a legacy are
01:31:29
the people who've made a real
01:31:30
difference. A real difference. Um and I
01:31:33
don't know that I made a real
01:31:34
difference. I think I think I've done
01:31:36
some good things and I'm happy with what
01:31:38
I've done, but um I don't deserve to be
01:31:41
in that echelon.
01:31:42
>> Oh, it's very modest. There's been a lot
01:31:44
of modesty in this in this chat. You're
01:31:46
very humble.
01:31:49
>> I don't know that I'm particularly
01:31:51
humble, but um but I I you know, I think
01:31:54
you get things in perspective as you get
01:31:56
older. It's just like
01:31:57
>> you learn what matters.
01:31:58
>> Yeah.
01:32:00
>> It's the the perk of aging, I think,
01:32:02
isn't it?
01:32:03
>> You stop
01:32:04
You do stop one of
01:32:07
>> you stop sweating the small stuff. Do
01:32:08
you find that?
01:32:10
>> Yeah. Still a bit of sweat. You know, if
01:32:12
the printer breaks down, I still sweat
01:32:13
that. You know, like I'm not I'm not
01:32:16
particularly good at that.
01:32:18
>> Oh, same here. I'm terrible with tech.
01:32:20
Are you proud of yourself?
01:32:27
>> I Yeah. Look, I think I could always
01:32:29
have have done
01:32:33
Yeah. There's always things that you
01:32:35
look back on and think I could have done
01:32:36
that better or differently.
01:32:38
>> I'm No, I'm not. Am I proud of myself?
01:32:41
I'm I'm pleased I am where I am. As I
01:32:44
say, the mo the biggest success is my
01:32:46
marriage. I think that's been
01:32:49
the absolute bedrock of of my life
01:32:54
really now for 50 odd years. And um I
01:32:58
just hope I've got another 20 or so that
01:33:00
I can
01:33:01
>> keep going and enjoying that and maybe
01:33:03
not such a frenetic pace.
01:33:09
>> When the 20 more summers time, uh when
01:33:12
you pass away, hopefully more than 20 uh
01:33:14
when you pass away, um
01:33:17
what three words would you like your
01:33:18
grandkids to say about you once you're
01:33:20
gone? Three words to describe Nan Nan.
01:33:23
grands.
01:33:24
>> Grands.
01:33:26
>> Um,
01:33:30
yeah. I I' I want them to remember me as
01:33:34
being
01:33:35
um loving and supportive of them.
01:33:38
Really?
01:33:40
>> Sounds like you
01:33:41
>> and kind. I think. Yeah, I think
01:33:43
kindness is important.
01:33:44
>> Yeah.
01:33:46
>> Hey, this has been a great chat.
01:33:49
>> You say that to all your guests, Dom.
01:33:53
No, but I genuinely mean it. There's
01:33:55
There's never been we've done over 300
01:33:57
episodes now and there's never been one
01:33:58
where I've been got to the end and being
01:34:00
like, "Oh, that was a waste of time.
01:34:01
That was a nothing chat." Um, but this
01:34:03
has been really really special. As I as
01:34:05
I said earlier, I wasn't sure what to
01:34:07
expect if it would just be work focused
01:34:08
or how open you'd be. But, um, no, it's
01:34:11
been it's been wonderful. And I'm um
01:34:13
yeah,
01:34:16
your relationship with your husband
01:34:17
Brian is is just absolute relationship
01:34:19
goals and um you I'm sorry for what you
01:34:21
guys are going through um as a family at
01:34:24
at the moment and the insights that
01:34:25
you've shared about that I know will be
01:34:26
beneficial for a lot of people because
01:34:28
you know you this is not unfortunately
01:34:30
an isolated case. This happens to a lot
01:34:32
of families every year.
01:34:34
>> That's right.
01:34:34
>> Yeah.
01:34:35
>> Yeah.
01:34:35
>> How have you found this
01:34:37
>> the podcast?
01:34:38
>> Yeah. I'm so um flattered that you've
01:34:41
gone to so much effort to do the
01:34:42
research. I think that's amazing. So um
01:34:46
and again this is self-indulgent
01:34:49
um getting to talk about yourself. It's
01:34:51
not no hardship. And I did get a glass
01:34:53
of water and Kanye sitting down there at
01:34:55
my feet. So no, I've really enjoyed it.
01:34:57
Thank you.
01:34:57
>> Well, this is the first time we've met.
01:34:59
But um I'm I'm in awe. I've really
01:35:01
enjoyed it. Um yeah. Jeez, you're hard
01:35:04
work though, aren't you? You're very
01:35:05
modest.
01:35:07
Dame Joan Withers, thank you so much for
01:35:10
coming on my podcast.
01:35:11
>> Thank you, Dom.
