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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in to Finn. How's the performance going?
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first. >> Steve Bronnius, welcome to my podcast. >> Thanks so much. It was a pleasure to be
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here. It's very flattering to be invited. Thank you. >> It's It's really nice to meet you. I'm
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slightly um terrified in a way, I think. >> Ease your terror. >> Really?
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>> No, because I I you probably you've done you do so much writing, so you probably
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don't even remember this. And I only vaguely remember it because I think I've
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tried to block it out. But you I have been um a subject of one of your columns. One of those um
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>> Secret Diary. >> Yeah, Secret Diary. >> Was it the A Secret Diary of Dom Harvey
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>> something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I was on commercial radio for like a
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number of years. David Bre on a station called The Edge. And I would have done something oish or buffoonish and I would
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would have deserved a public bollocking and um rightfully I I got one from the great Steve Bronners.
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>> I'm sure it wasn't a bollocking. It might have been a gentle mocking,
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>> but you you have been described as merciless. Merciless. What um if you
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looked up in the thesaurus, what are some other words for merciless? What does what does that mean?
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>> Um >> like savage. >> Savage, cold, unfeilling, lacking in empathy, ruthless. These are good
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synonyms. >> Is Is that fair? Are you merciless? Oh, I I I yeah, I would have to acknowledge
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that sometimes that that would be true. Um yes, uh professionally um that would be accurate and you know
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there's there's often not a a great distinction between your professional
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life and your personal life as well. So, um yeah, I I think that would be um mainly a kind of failing
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um as a person and as a as a writer and a journalist, but sometimes it it can be, you know, harnessed to good effect.
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Um, I guess I'm one of these sort of writers who um, you know, I just can't resist a lot of
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things. And um, you know, I'm the sort of person who will write something and think,
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"Yep, yeah, you you you should say this." And then, you know, subsequently regret
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it >> and and beat myself up. So, you used to think, [ __ ] that's a little bit mean,
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but [ __ ] it. YOLO. It's funny. Send. >> It's It's more of a sort of a matter of
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is it um is it does it belong to the story and is it accurate to the story? And um
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yeah, it the sort of god that I that that I've that I've you know kind of
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worshiped over the years is this idea of the story. You know the story has to be
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intact and the story has to be honest and um it's often at the expense of the
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person who writes it which is me. >> Yeah. cuz there was that column I found
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that described you as merciless but um if you do a deep dive or you know I know you've got a lot of fans a lot of people
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that have probably read all your work like there's some columns that you've
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written which are like about your daughter and about your personal life and they're anything but they're yeah
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they're very um you're very soft and gentle. Yeah, it can be. Yeah. I mean,
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you know, everyone is complicated, right? No one is any one thing. And so I don't I don't see it as any particular
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contradiction or surprise that I should you know spend a lot of time say writing
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about murder trials and often or sometimes at least quite unfeillingly towards say the accused and then spend
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you know a great deal of my writing life uh writing quite sentimental columns about my mom, my daughter and people who
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I love in my life. Uh we're all like that. M >> yeah and the crime stuff that you're
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talking about. So this is your latest book um which was shroud in secrecy. I had to sign an NDA to get a copy of this
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in advance. Pulking horn inside the trial of the century. So that's your latest bit of work and I'm looking
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forward to getting into that. Um I like a lot of New Zealanders I think last year during the Pulking Horn trial um
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were had an insatable appetite for your updates, your columns. >> Cool. Thank you.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. you've managed to combine this um this fascination of yours with
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um court trials along with um like a career in writing um which is masterful. >> Oh, thank you. I don't know about that,
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but thank you. >> No, no, to to get paid to do what you love. I think anyone that can sort of um
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get that one over the line is done well >> because you're not like a court reporter
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per se. It's like um in a sort of an opinion piece or an observational piece.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. There there are daily court reporters who do a really thorough and
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you know superb job of sort of summarizing the day's events. It's hard work too. It's real hard work.
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You got to think fast. Uh you've got to take all sorts of things into consideration and the people who do it
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and do it really well I tip my hat to. Um that's not what I do. I I guess they
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are sort of interpretive. Um I was always uh I was just sort of interested in the idea of um
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attending a tri a trial and making some kind of literature out of it. >> So the Pokemon trial did you did you
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attend every single day? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. >> So So you were there so everything the
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jurors heard you heard? >> Yes. Um yes that's true. And um I think it's the
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I may be wrong in in thinking this but I think it was the first trial uh that I attended where I was writing
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every single day of that trial. And so typically, you know, uh the trial would finish at 4
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or sometimes early at 4:00 or or or 5. Either way, I would um catch the bus home.
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don't drive. And um start writing the story on my phone with with one finger, not very
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good at thumbs. And I would write the story real fast on my phone. Uh the speed was partly
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because after being a day in court, your phone wears down. I was never clever enough to take a a charger. I don't have
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a laptop. I just took in a notebook and a pen. And so anyway, the charge was getting down to like 5% 2% kind of
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thing, you know, and so you had to write it and continue keep saving it, keep saving it and file to the newspaper uh
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pretty much by the time I got home on the bus >> every day. And uh it was it was,
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you know, it was it was a very exciting thing to do, you know, to try and create
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this kind of tension which is already there on the trial. Every day was tense. Every day was um
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every day was really interesting. You never knew how it was going to turn out in the end and you never knew what each
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day was going to uh unfold and what the arguments would be and also what you never knew quite what you felt about it.
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You know, um you can't help yourself. You go there as a journalist. Um you're
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not on the jury. You're not a prosecutor. You're not you're not the defense. and you're certainly not the
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judge. And you know, your your mind, well, my mind anyway, kept changing throughout
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the trial. Uh like, you know, you'd hear a devastating day by the prosecution and
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you go, "Oh my god, this appalling. He's clearly guilty. This is terrible. He did
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what they said he did." And then other days the defense would tear it apart,
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tear it down, which they often did. And you go, "Hang on a minute." You know,
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reasonable doubt has been more than established here. Let that man go. >> And that was the latter, wasn't it, for
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the jury? >> Is is that what attracts you to court cases in general? Just the drama of it.
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>> What is it? >> Yeah. Well, um it's what gets said in a room about something which is,
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you know, happened usually very fast. It doesn't take long to kill someone or for
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someone to be killed by their own hand if that's the case. And it's this um intense recreation of
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something which has possibly only taken a couple of minutes to achieve. And um it's this huge test of character,
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>> you know, and um >> with the highest stakes imaginable. >> Such high stakes. Um
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it's the character of the accused and is also the sort of associated tragedies of
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the accused family and the families of the alleged you know victim. >> And um
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I think the time I I I realized I I I the first time I felt this most intensely about the families and their
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predicament. It wasn't a murder trial. I I I sometimes make a point of going to the
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most seemingly boring trial that there is. Uh a trial where no one from the press wants to go to. And you know,
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perhaps no one wants to read about. To me, that's fascinating. But why not? It's the same thing somebody whose life
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or freedom or liberty is on the line. It was a um it was a methamphetamine possession trial. media avoided it like
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the plague went on and on and I couldn't tear myself away, you know, like at the
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end of every day I go, "Don't go back and I'd be there at 10:00 a.m. the next
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day." And it was a it was an Iranian fella. It was all a fast. After the jury
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found him guilty, he he and between that and sentencing, he he he acknowledged >> his guilt. Um
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it was all a fast really, but it took forever. And and the point I'm trying to
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make is that there was barely anyone in the public gallery too, you know, which again makes it more interesting like why
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is everyone avoiding this? Why is there a vacuum here? And it gives it a certain
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kind of poignency and a tragedy that no one cares, you know. Uh, pretty much the only
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people in the courtroom that I remember was this Iranian fella's wife and child,
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very young kid, beautiful looking boy, gorgeous looking fella with big eyes. He was about three, I think.
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>> Used to play with him sometimes. And um I remember thinking that um the wife who came out of you know a
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terrific sort of loyalty to her husband uh I remember thinking of her as like a uh a balloon
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and the string was the trial. You know she had a place in this trial that she was attached to it and then she came to
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realize that she was totally irrelevant actually. It was all being performed without her and you just sort of saw her
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or sensed her float to the top of the room. She was unnecessary and it was so incredibly sad to see and um and you see
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that you know uh the frustrations of family uh particularly of of of the alleged
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victim and murder trials. You know, they're so frustrated they can't say
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anything. They can't do anything. they just have to let it pass in front of them while they float around this
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courtroom having no sort of corporeal existence. >> Um so yeah, that sort of thing is is
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terribly sad. The poignency of it is is is attractive. Um and it all takes part it all takes place
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in one room for you to observe and to listen and to watch. >> So Dr. Philip Pulking Horn. Um,
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>> did you like him? Would you say your mates? >> I did like him. Yeah. Um, I did like
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him. We We It was highly unusual. You know, the accused in these cases normally sort of sequestered away behind
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glass. And Philip had the run of the courtroom. He took up a whole expensive row of real estate to himself in the
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courtroom. And so he was very accessible. And you'd go in the morning and each day and go, "Morn, Phil."
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Have a chat during the daytime at recesses. Um, >> about what? >> Often it was small talk. Sometimes it
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was big talk. I suppose he um I remember he he he he said at one quite crucial point, it was a bad day for Phil that
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day. Uh the prosecution were banging this drum of his um of his uh enjoyment of sex workers and it made him look
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super bad. You know, Phil failed the test of character in that trial, didn't he? Nobody liked him.
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>> Pretty sure the jury didn't like him. >> But it was uh it was this huge sort of
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character assassination. And of course, it had a point to the prosecution. And they were they were tying it to to the
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killing to the death rather of Pauline Hannah his wife. But often it did seem kind of
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sensationalist. It seemed very tabloid and it seemed irrelevant and unconnected to what had happened that night.
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And that one one of those particular days he was seething with rage and and you know as we put on our coats it was
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winter time to leave he was putting on his coat and I said bye Phil see you tomorrow and he said come over here you
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know I said you all right he said no I'm disgusted you know shocking day shocking day and then he
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said you wait you wait till the science you wait till we bring out science science.
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I thought, "Yeah, sure. I'll wait." Um, but he was right. It was the science
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which um surely liberated him. >> Did Did he read your columns? Like when you called him what did you call him? A
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like a malignant malignant malignant sex dwarf. >> Yes, that's that's the one.
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>> It's a hell of a line. Did he like does he pull you aside and say, "Hey, Steve,
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that was a little uncharitable." Or >> do you do you write something like that
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and think that's a great line, send? And then the next day you're like, "Oh my
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god, these are the guy I wrote it about." >> Yeah. Every day. Every day of my
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professional life. Dom, you've summed it up. Um, yeah. Malignant sex dwarf. Um, I I don't
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think he did read them. Um, pretty sure that Ron Mansfield, his his his brilliant defense lawyer, who, you
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know, constantly will say, "I don't read my press. I'm pretty sure he was reading
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them >> every day. Uh there would be the occasional time I'd refer to his
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expanding waistline and he would come in in the morning and pat his tum and glare
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at me. >> Yeah. The book just the observations in your book like talking about um Pulking
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Horn's lawyer, Ron Ron Mansfield. talk about his the the shape of his teeth and
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how that that little and how how he eats Royal Gala apples and just these little
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nuances, a little behind the scenes that no one else would potentially notice, but you do. And I suppose that's one of
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your strengths. >> Yeah. It's not part of the normal court record, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. I
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mean, the closest I I I did perform uh the role of a daily court reporter years and years ago. Uh, I I was lucky enough
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to get a job at the Greymouth Evening Star and they wanted me as a court reporter, which I'd never done before,
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never been into a courtroom. And um, you know, it it it it was a kind of at least a good grounding for the kind of
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writing that I was to do many many years later, decades later really. Um, and it was uh it was it was so
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I didn't really do anything about courts until 2005. So from like 1985 to 2005, 20 year absence really. And
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what got me back into it was the Anthony Dixon murder trials with the guy with the samurai sword
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>> who people always forget, you know, he wasn't on trial for the samurai sword.
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He was really he was on trial for picking up a uh a machine gun, I think, something like that. and and shooting a
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guy who had never met before in a service station just cuz I mean he did go at and attempt to
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murder two women with this sword but yeah there was a 20-year gap in between and um I was you know I found court
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really interesting as a young guy and Greymouth and Greymouth kept you pretty busy as a court reporter you know there
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was lots of things going on. Assault was the main thing. Um, yeah, it was like it was like, you know,
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it's a pretty small town. You know, it should really the court really by rights
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should only been sitting two to three days a week, but it was full every day. You know, Greybar's got a particular
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sort of set of circumstances which is going to lead to the district court being real busy every day. Um but yeah,
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I didn't write about um the shape of people's of courtroom lawyers teeth and
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the way that they tore into gala apples as a metaphor for the way that they uh approached trial work back then. That's
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for sure. >> I suppose that comes with um you earn that right over the years with the
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experience. >> I don't know. What do you think? >> H [Music] I don't know. I I I I never looked at it
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that way. It was um >> I mean, as a junior reporter, they're going to be like, "Brawnous, go back to
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your typewriter." >> Yeah. >> No one cares about the the type of apple
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it is. >> Yeah. True, true. They would have if I'd attempted to write something like that.
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Um I don't know. I mean, it's always seemed like a um it always just seemed
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like a good idea >> to to when I eventually did start to write that way about courtroom trials,
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it seemed like a good idea to attempt to write some kind of literature um about them. You know, one one thing I
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learned from that um experience in Greymouth is that when there was a particularly
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interesting um case in Greymouth, I never had to buy a drink. >> Go to the Golden Eagle pub after work
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and people, "Oh my god, Bronnius, have a beer. Tell me what happened today. What
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happened?" And um people were fascinated, you know, and of course that was kind of writ
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slightly larger really during the pulking horn trial, you know. I'd be I'd
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get off the bus still typing on my phone as it got down to 1%. >> And people be coming up to you between
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the bus and my house going, "What happened? What was it like? What happened? What did you think? What are
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you writing?" Well, I'm writing it now. Leave me alone. >> You get her on premium. You'll read it
00:21:16
tomorrow. >> That's right. But yeah, it was that similar sort of um it was that similar sort of thing. This
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this you know pretty I've always thought that that the fascination that people have with with
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with trials that I've covered. Um yeah, there's an element of of vulturism.
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Yeah, there's a a small element of voyerism, but really I I think it's a
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totally excusable and tolerable human emotion. uh almost a decent one, you know.
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>> Um >> I thought that particularly during the Grace Mlain trial >> and the way that people were interested
00:21:58
in that, it wasn't anything dark or like a dark tourism. >> I don't think there was any nasty in our
00:22:06
great interest in that trial. I think it was out of a a common sort of decency that we uh you know even before we
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learned that Grace had been killed, >> Grace was missing. Do you remember that,
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Dom? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I I think everyone could sort of feel like they
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knew a Grace or there was a huge amount of empathy in an outpouring for David and Jillian.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I'm I'm trying to remember the exact days. I
00:22:34
think there were maybe three days >> of this sudden announcement. Grace is
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missing >> and and it kind of >> seized the nation with this longing to
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find her. Where is she? And for it to end like that in this like really appalling way with the suitcase.
00:22:56
Um people were so devastated by that and they followed the trial out of this sort
00:23:03
of >> huge warmth and suffering that they felt for for grace. So yeah, a long way from any kind of um
00:23:13
gaining some dark thrill with pulking horn. Um that was a different thing. That was not the same feeling at all.
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Um there was I mean this is an extraordinary sort of thing to say I suppose Dom but the sense that I picked
00:23:33
up of people constantly coming up to me during that what was it eight weeks >> and talking to me or getting hold of me
00:23:42
by email and stuff. Uh well the word I would use for it was happiness. I think it I think there was
00:23:52
>> some sort of entertainment. >> Hate to use that word. >> Yeah, I know. It's it it it doesn't seem
00:24:00
apt, does it? Neither does the word happiness. >> Um I think it was more than
00:24:04
entertainment. I do think it was a it was a sort of a happiness. It was a uh it was a hard winter.
00:24:11
>> Uh the recession was coming in. The cost of living was this huge remains. But it
00:24:17
first became this huge issue. you know, everyone was feeling a pinch and along comes this thing and you know, when
00:24:25
people would come up to me, it wasn't with a furrowed brow. It was with a huge
00:24:30
grin, >> you know. Um, and it wasn't about obviously, you know, the murder of
00:24:36
Pauline, and it wasn't a matter of taking any kind of delight that Pauline had died. It was a a delight in the um
00:24:46
the private life of this guy being revealed in in such sort of excruciating and sorted detail.
00:24:59
>> Yeah. I suppose it just highlights that no one's perfect. Like we've all got
00:25:02
like dirty laundry, don't we? Um and none of us would want all our dirty laundry like every last garment exposed.
00:25:08
And that's exactly what >> Is this our opportunity? Do are you go But did did do do you think as someone
00:25:15
that was there um for every moment of every day, did the jury get it right? >> If you if you were a juror,
00:25:25
>> good jury, by the way, >> what makes a good jury? >> They were they concentrated. They were
00:25:31
attentive. at least um at least 11 of them. >> 11 out of 12 ain't bad.
00:25:43
>> Pardon? >> 11 out of 12 isn't bad. >> It's it's pretty darn good really. You
00:25:49
know, the amount of juries you see and it's not an indictment on them. I mean,
00:25:53
it's boring a lot of the time. from a murder trial. These arguments between prosecution, defense over some sort of
00:26:01
very small point which is not germanine or relevant. Um so yeah, a lot of a lot of
00:26:11
a great number of people on juries are constantly visibly bored out of their tree. Not this one. Not this one. This
00:26:20
one. Same with the melain actually. I mean that was that was impossible for them to
00:26:27
be bored by that. But the amount of writing that I saw them uh do in the Malay trial, man, that's that they must
00:26:36
have written >> honestly at a guess 700,000 words. >> Wow. Well, to put that in perspective, your
00:26:46
new book, that's what 80,000 >> I think. Yeah, it's about 80 to 90, I
00:26:50
think. Yeah. Um and that Yeah. the jury on that one. Sorry, your question was, did they get it right? And
00:26:58
I'm sorry not to answer that directly. The answer would be yes, >> as in
00:27:04
what they were presented with. Um, yeah, they they they I mean, they did that really fascinating
00:27:14
thing at the end where they handed in the note to the judge. You know, it's always interesting when a
00:27:22
jury does that. you know, they get sent out to deliberate and they very often will will um is this this this custom
00:27:29
dom. It's it's kind of it's often kind of terrifying. The jury gets sent out and when they are
00:27:38
either ready with their verdict or they want to ask a question, they knock on the door that they're behind. This knock
00:27:47
and it can be so frightening. Oh my god, it's it's going to happen. We're about
00:27:53
to find out this person is either going to go away or they're not. And it's so frightening. And you think
00:28:00
back to the death of the person and the families involved and you know, word goes around the court, calls are made,
00:28:09
texts, everyone sort of swarms back to court and and you see them come back to court
00:28:17
as families and they can barely breathe. You know, >> I remember it was like that at
00:28:26
nighttime. It was a nighttime verdict. If I pretty sure I'm accurate in remembering this,
00:28:32
it was a nighttime verdict. Uh this is a very unpleasant trial, the Louise Nicholas trial, Clinton
00:28:41
Rickard's, Brad Shipp, Grant Scholam, all accused of rape as senior police officers.
00:28:50
And yeah, the jury, the knock came in and you know, if you just happen to be sitting in court at that time like doing
00:28:59
stuff and you're there to hear the knock, so frightening. >> And yeah, sorry. I I I heard them. I
00:29:06
heard the knock uh in the Pulking Horn trial both times, one for the note and one for
00:29:13
the verdict. and the note. Getting back to that, they knocked on the door to say that they had
00:29:19
a note. So, you all converge. It's just the note is there's not this feeling of tension in the air, but a
00:29:26
little bit of it. It's like, what do they what's their question? What what
00:29:29
they got? Sometimes it's it's of no consequence. This one was very consequential.
00:29:37
They they they had a note and it said, "Some of us do not believe there is enough proof
00:29:48
that this was a suicide. Equally, some of us do not think there is enough proof for a verdict of murder.
00:29:58
What do we do?" And it was this like kind of gnomic question. Oh. So she didn't kill herself. Ergo, she
00:30:10
must have been killed would be the logical >> reading of it. But it wasn't like that.
00:30:15
It was like we don't believe in anything. And the judge did what the judge had to
00:30:22
do, which was like, we're not here to um rule on a suicide. We're here to rule on
00:30:28
a murder. If you don't think there's enough proof for a murder, then you kind of got your verdict. And yeah,
00:30:36
they came back not not too long after, maybe it was the next day, I'm not sure.
00:30:43
And they said not guilty. So yeah, they they they they got it right. There wasn't there wasn't enough proof. The um
00:30:49
and Pulking Horns, you know, comment, very angry comment to me one day early in the trial about you wait, you wait
00:30:56
for our science. He got it. He got it. He hit the nail on the head. He was totally right. When the defense began
00:31:03
their their defense of uh Dr. Philip Pulkinghorn, they called in two forensic pathologists who both said with great
00:31:13
resolution and conviction. There is no evidence to suggest that this was that she had
00:31:21
been hanged. >> And they were so persuasive. They were so unmovable. They did not equivocate in
00:31:31
cross-examination from the prosecution. They held to that ground. And it was like, wow. You could just
00:31:39
feel like the whole sort of circus tent collapsing. The show was over. >> Uh, you know,
00:31:47
accuse somebody of murder, the murderer, the accused says, "Prove it."
00:31:53
>> That's it. That's it in a nutshell. >> That's the criminal justice system.
00:31:57
Prove it. you um yeah, you don't have to answer this. Uh but you can if you want.
00:32:02
Do do you think uh Dr. Pulking Hall is responsible for the death of Pauline Hannah?
00:32:07
>> Uh it's the it's the one question to ask and of course you should ask it. And um
00:32:12
I've got a disappointing answer. I I was I was open to it >> when I entered the trial.
00:32:22
Still open to it. >> Um I don't know is the answer. No, no, I only only one person does.
00:32:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah, >> I I should be able to, you know, come down on one side or another. I honestly
00:32:39
should, but um it just wouldn't be accurate. >> I don't know. >> Getting
00:32:46
>> I don't know what I think. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. H getting to know him the way you did
00:32:52
through the 8week trial, like how did you feel in in the leadup to the verdict then when the verdict was was read out?
00:32:58
Was it like a a sense of relief? Um a sense of rage, indifference? >> I like your last word. Um it was closest
00:33:08
to it was closest to indifference. >> Um it wasn't exactly that. It was
00:33:15
closely related to that. It was um was a kind of emptiness, you know. >> It was
00:33:28
all that for for for this. Um it was sad. >> It was sad on so many levels. It was,
00:33:40
you know, one of the one of the first sort of sad consequences of it was that um you had
00:33:46
to then accept by that verdict that it it's like turning the jury's note around. Oh, if
00:33:56
she hadn't been killed, then she must have ended her own life. That's what
00:34:00
you're saying to me, isn't it? >> And that was sad to to to entertain that
00:34:05
possibility. Mhm. >> Um it was really sad for Pauline's family. I um really more than Phil. Um I
00:34:15
really like Bruce who was Pauline's sister. Pauline's brother, Bruce Hannah.
00:34:22
Hell of a nice guy. Fair dinkham. Kiwi guy. um straight up, honest, >> warm,
00:34:33
devastated, you know, really liked him. I really liked um her best friend who came to the
00:34:40
trial most days, if not every day. Um Feeasant Reedan, lovely woman. Um there's a uh
00:34:51
Did you watch the documentary? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The one with the the private eye.
00:34:57
and the and the the nothing phone call which I'm you reference in the book like
00:35:03
she had a phone call from a woman a couple of months before that said I think my husband's cheating and then
00:35:06
hung up and there was no she thinks it may have been Pauline but she's not really sure
00:35:11
>> yeah what a >> I'm pleased you highlighted that in your book because it's like what is that
00:35:16
>> yeah what is that exactly what a what a nonsense um yeah no the reason I
00:35:23
mentioned the documentary which was otherwise um other other than her the privateized non-involvement and vain
00:35:31
parading of herself throughout the show was otherwise really excellent uh quite meticulous
00:35:38
um and it was true to the trial too which is what what what I hope the book is Dom is true to the trial in as much I
00:35:46
I I hope my book and I think the documentary were true to the spirit of the trial and its and its its wildness
00:35:54
you know >> the the documentary century. Um, you know, it it's it's wildly
00:36:02
entertaining. It's got this incredible interview with um woman who we haven't
00:36:09
mentioned yet, which is Madison Ashton, >> who just, you know, it's it's it's real
00:36:15
life stuff. It's true crime to to to coin that that unfortunate phrase. Um, Madison steals the show. She's so
00:36:23
watchable. She's so funny. She's so vivid. Um, and indeed she uh, you know, she gives a
00:36:33
long interview in my book and you know, her answers uh, the way she spoke so great. She's so clever.
00:36:43
Honestly, you know, I'd love to be able to talk like that. She she talks like a
00:36:48
writer. These perfectly formed sentences. >> She's really interesting. Um
00:36:56
yeah. Uh uh >> you can see why he was charmed by her, can't you? >> Oh yes. Yeah.
00:37:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. You can um you know she deserved better. You know, she's a
00:37:16
lovely person. Got a lot to give. she deserved a uh a really good solid loving relationship, you know, as much as
00:37:26
anybody does really. Um, and I think that was um that that became a huge issue in the
00:37:34
trial because she felt that the cops she was going to be called as a witness for
00:37:38
the prosecution and it may well have been she didn't appear. Had she appeared, it may well have been
00:37:46
really devastating and it may well have got the guilty verdict over the line. >> She didn't appear because she felt the
00:37:54
cops disrespected her and that they didn't look upon um the fact that she had a relationship with Pulking Horn
00:38:01
with any uh with any kind of they didn't acknowledge it was her feeling. you
00:38:06
know, they just regarded her as a sex worker, which is her occupation. But her her whole relationship with
00:38:16
Pulking had sort of evolved from him being a client of of hers um to them, you know, having a de facto
00:38:27
relationship. >> And she felt as though the cops never acknowledged that. And she felt really
00:38:31
angry about that. And she flipped them the bird and said, "I'm not coming. I'm
00:38:36
not attending your stupid trial. And uh it could have been really crucial. We don't know.
00:38:43
>> Yeah, we'll never know. Um the last chapter of your book uh chapter 13, it's
00:38:48
called At Home with Pulking Horn. So this um I found this riveting. It doesn't paint him as a very nice man.
00:38:57
Yeah, just in terms in terms of how he's still denies using meth, blaming it on
00:39:01
Pauline, just being really uncharitable to this woman he supposedly loved after her death, whether it was at his hands
00:39:07
or otherwise. Um, >> uh, Madison referring to her as basically like a work colleague and a
00:39:15
professional relationship gone wrong. >> Um, just turning himself into a victim for
00:39:21
the way the police put him in a car and locked him in there for 15 minutes with his own thoughts.
00:39:25
>> Mhm. Um, yeah, he does like regardless of what you think about the trial,
00:39:30
whether he got away with murder or didn't, he he doesn't seem like a very
00:39:33
nice man. >> Yeah, that that that that was the the heavy sigh I gave before, Dom. It wasn't
00:39:40
wasn't at you raising it at all. It was an acknowledgment that what you're
00:39:44
saying is quite right. Um, I mean, you know, silly old Phil he does have a at the very least, you know, he
00:39:56
does have a terrible unpleasantness to him. And for for him to say those things and the way he said them,
00:40:04
you know, about about people, I thought that's not right. You know, even down
00:40:10
well, not even down, but including the um who's he's so steadfast in denying that he possessed the
00:40:20
methamphetamine, you know, which he pleaded guilty to at the outset of the trial. And his explanation for that was
00:40:26
that the defense, his own lawyers said, "Well, look, you should we advise you to
00:40:31
do that. It's just going to be another can of worms." >> He said, "Oh, well, you know, I'll do
00:40:37
it, but it wasn't mine." And you know, at sentencing, the judge is like
00:40:43
something like, "Oh, look, you know, you're still denying that." You know, I
00:40:47
mean, he didn't say this, but basically the judge said, "Ah, [ __ ] you. M
00:40:52
>> you know >> you're going down for that cuz he pleaded guilty to it. That's why he
00:40:56
reappeared at sentencing. It wasn't for Pauline's death. It was for the methamphetamine and you know what did he
00:41:02
get community service or something like 150 hours. >> Yeah. And >> yeah but trying to blame it on her. I
00:41:08
mean there there was Yeah. She had searches on her phone like what are the effects of methamphetamine? Like she had
00:41:13
no she was clueless. She had no idea what it did >> quite Yeah. It would it would seem to be
00:41:17
the case. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was >> Yeah. I mean, dear old Pauline, I wish
00:41:24
I'd met her. You know, she sounded fun. She sounded pretty stam again with her
00:41:30
internet searches. She was searching, >> you know, she was searching all these uh
00:41:37
authors, you know, not too long before she she died. I remember one of them was uh
00:41:43
Gustav Flo who's the author of Madame Bovery and she would have loved that book you know she would have really
00:41:51
loved that book about a >> it's about a woman who marries unwisely [Music]
00:42:00
>> love to have sat down with Pauline and her brother Bruce over a bottle of wine
00:42:07
and Bruce Bruce had a signature dish Indian meat deal that he liked to that he liked to make.
00:42:14
>> Uh wouldn't it have been wouldn't have been would have been such fun to have
00:42:17
met them totally outside of this tragedy >> and go hi you seemed really terrific.
00:42:22
Let's let's let's drink this bottle. Let's have this meal uh and have a good old chat, you know,
00:42:30
and and I would have to say, you know, and fulfill not to be present. [Music] >> Yeah. Will you keep in touch with him at
00:42:38
all? the the at the beginning of the book there's a text that he sent you in
00:42:41
regards to um >> your older brother's um death recently which was >> charitable.
00:42:46
>> Yeah, it was very charitable. This is the thing he's you know at the very
00:42:50
least he's an unpleasant person but it's not the only thing about him. I did like
00:42:55
him you know a fair bit by chatting to him constantly throughout the trial and getting a sense of him.
00:43:04
Um, and he is likable, you know, he is he has a Yeah, I think he has a genuine real generous streak. He's got a a
00:43:13
spirit of generosity. Um, yeah, my my brother died uh in December just before Christmas and um he
00:43:24
sent me this text out of the blue and I was really touched by that. Um I'm kind of I'm kind of um I'm more than
00:43:34
aware actually that when I when I interviewed Madison and you know I would have said to her oh look I I you know
00:43:42
for what it's worth I liked him. She said don't you don't you do that you
00:43:46
know don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. Anything he says to you which you regard
00:43:52
as nice is just him using you. You're just this was her metaphor. you're just
00:43:58
toilet paper to him. >> Um, hell of a hell of a metaphor. Honestly, uh, I respect Madison and and I think almost
00:44:08
everything she said I I I, you know, thought was entirely accurate and true. Um, but again, I I I would I gave uh
00:44:18
Phil uh the benefit of the doubt as per the death of his wife and and as per being a nice guy. Uh I I think
00:44:28
everybody's pretty much everyone is capable of being a nice guy um regardless of something they may have
00:44:35
done. >> Well, thanks for sharing those insights. Yeah. Yeah. Is that the you do will he
00:44:42
read this book? What do you think he'll think of it? >> What's the extent of your relationship
00:44:47
moving forward? Gee, um I think the last time I the last time I heard from Phil was uh when the
00:44:58
documentary was screened or before it was screened, the documentary makers had a had a
00:45:05
launch uh a private launch a private screening for it to which I was invited. You know, lots of journalists came to
00:45:15
that. And I get this text from Phil saying, "Hey, are you going to the screening?" Said, "Yeah, yeah. How are
00:45:22
you going?" "Yeah, I am." Sure. Well, I don't know why I ever been invited.
00:45:27
I thought, "Wow." Um, I suppose he got a point, you know, that he would take
00:45:32
umbrage at not being invited to a screening essentially about his story. Um, but conversely, you know, uh, uh,
00:45:42
equally, you know, I I'm having a a private book launch for this book. Uh, love you to come to that, Dom, but I'm
00:45:50
not going to invite Phil. >> I think that would be in poor taste. >> Has he asked you to write his book? I
00:45:57
believe he's been shopping around a book even though he's not a writer. >> Um,
00:46:03
>> apart from medical documents. >> Yeah. >> Which I believe are quite good.
00:46:07
>> Yeah, he is. Uh he's been he was working on the book during the trial quite
00:46:12
assiduously. You know I I said to him one day um you know he he'd sit in front of his
00:46:18
his his screen all day and I would slowly fill up with these quite dense long paragraphs
00:46:26
and uh you couldn't quite see what they were they were about. But I had this
00:46:30
epiphany one day and when court finished for that day I took him aside and said you're writing a book aren't you? Yep.
00:46:37
You damn right I am. >> Um, what do you say it's called? Guilty until proven innocent. Not a bad title.
00:46:45
>> Um, oh, you know, good luck to him. Uh, in in in writing it and in finishing it.
00:46:54
Uh, anyone who writes a book, that's you you know yourself, Dom, it's it's a it's
00:46:59
a pile of work. >> Terrible payday as well. terribly hourly rate. >> It's not a good hourly rate, is it? But
00:47:08
no, good luck to him. Um, you know, his book is going to be a document which which sets out his um sets out his
00:47:17
innocence. Um, he was found not guilty. So, you know, fair enough uh for him to want to
00:47:24
do that. He's not the person not the kind of person to just walk away, >> you know. He um he's an interesting guy.
00:47:32
Um there was that comment that a um a witness made during the trial. Myra Rington was her name. Probably the
00:47:42
most interesting witness that we saw. She lived in an apartment block on the Northshore
00:47:50
and she was there to say that she saw Pulking Horn arrive drive up regularly at this apartment to have
00:48:00
appointments with a sex worker who lived there. And her one of her remarks was um he's a man who likes to
00:48:10
stand out. This was in reference to his was Merc with the license with a with a a catchy uh license plate to the fact he
00:48:21
wore bow ties. Um >> that's right. Sometimes he turned up in his like medical scrubs.
00:48:27
>> He did once. Poor form, isn't it? Really? Good grief. Um >> that's right. With a bottle of
00:48:34
champagne. >> Yeah. He did not arrive discreetly, you know. He was like, "Here I am
00:48:41
in my Merc um wearing scrubs or a bow tie, you know. Um it's so similar to that. He he,
00:48:53
you know, he he's not a person in the in the in the aftermath of this extraordinary trial.
00:49:02
He's not a person to fade gently away. >> Cuz that would be easy to do, wouldn't
00:49:07
it? Just move to Australia somewhere. Move to Brisbane. Be a face in the crowd. >> Oh my god. You I
00:49:13
>> He's got the resources. >> I You know, I caught up with him not
00:49:17
long after. And I said, "So, >> what are you doing here?" You know, um,
00:49:25
move to the Gold Coast. Get the hell out of here. You know, I couldn't imagine him walking
00:49:31
around the neighborhood and putting up with people staring at him or or hissing at him or maybe worse, you know. Um I
00:49:42
haven't actually read it yet, Dom, but I gather there's a story in the paper at
00:49:45
the moment. Have you seen this about his real estate sign? >> Oh, yeah. Just last weekend, um yeah,
00:49:51
someone graffitied it with the word killer, >> right? >> Why would you want to hang around that
00:49:56
kind of scene, you know? Um well it his answer would be I didn't do anything
00:50:02
wrong. Um leave me be. I like you know he he likes Oakland. He's got he's got
00:50:11
people here. >> He's got his his sister here lives down the road from him.
00:50:18
Got every right to be here I guess. Um, not not I'm not arguing against that,
00:50:23
but gee, you >> you think nine people out of 10 would go, you know what? I've always wanted to
00:50:30
live in Paraguay. >> Well, what is he now? Like 73 72 73. >> Yeah. Must be around there.
00:50:37
>> So, another another 10 15 years left maybe. Go and enjoy it somewhere. >> Paraguay. Yeah. Cheap property.
00:50:45
>> I don't know actually. >> Yeah. I mean, he's been he's at the very
00:50:50
least, you know, you would think he's been cancelled, >> but he refuses to acknowledge it and
00:50:55
walks around to this day, you know. Um, free as a bird. Um, I don't know. It's
00:51:02
his choice. It's his personality. It's his it's his thing. Um, let him be, I
00:51:09
guess. >> Thanks for those insights on Pulking Horn. It's a Yeah, it's a great book. I
00:51:14
read the beginning of it and the end of it. Um cuz I I only had limited time before this podcast, but I'm looking
00:51:19
forward to reading the rest of it cuz I'm legitimately enjoying it. >> Look, I I I thoroughly enjoyed this
00:51:24
chat. Um >> Oh, no, no, no. We're not wrapping up the chat. >> Oh, really? I thought I thought I
00:51:29
thought we were shaking hands. >> No, it's the poking horn section. >> That's the poking horn section. Is there
00:51:34
a worse one to follow? >> No, not not at all. But you haven't done a lot in the way of podcast. I was
00:51:38
telling you before we came in, I heard one on because once a podcast is published, it remains there until the
00:51:43
publisher removes it. And you've done one with Simon Sweetman who's a uh a
00:51:47
writer. >> Oh yeah. >> Um >> and there's another one with Graham Hill
00:51:51
which was like a radio segment which was posted online on the podcast platforms.
00:51:54
But this is your first long form platform about Steve Bronners >> I guess. Is this what this is? Yeah.
00:52:00
Would be. Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten those two. I mean they were >> they were chats. Were they podcasts?
00:52:05
Were they? >> Yeah. They're on the various podcast apps, >> right? Podcast apps.
00:52:10
>> Yeah. Like Spotify and Apple. You you're playing dumb, right? You you've got a
00:52:14
your daughter's what 18 19? Yeah. You know, you even mentioned Taylor Swift before. You you know about podcasting.
00:52:23
I I I certainly know about it. I've never play your character. >> I've never listened to one in my life.
00:52:28
No. No. No. Actually, I listened to one a few years ago. Put me off for life. Really? Um I'm not I'm not a Yeah. God
00:52:37
mighty. The idea of this seems contradictory to say because I'm recording a podcast with you, but the
00:52:43
idea of sitting down to to to listen to somebody chering on. Oh, the [ __ ] death. Steve Bronnius talking about
00:52:52
Pulking Horn and his brand new book Pulking Horn inside the toile of the century is out now. That part of the
00:52:58
podcast came from a bigger conversation that we had which includes stories about
00:53:02
Steve's life, his career, his thoughts on aging, the future, uh, so much more
00:53:07
than that. That episode with Steve Bronnius, an insight into the man himself. It's going to be out later this
00:53:13
week. It's the next episode released on the Dom Harvey podcast. As you heard
00:53:17
just there from Steve himself, it's his worst nightmare. Just a couple of people
00:53:22
chering on, as he said. But yeah, if you like Steve Bronnius and you like that episode and you're curious to know more
00:53:29
about one of New Zealand's greatest writers, check it out next on the Domy podcast.