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Maybe I should just drive off the side. I burnt out twice. >> Dame Theresa Getting. Welcome to my
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podcast. >> I was a goody two shoes at school. I don't need emotional support. I don't
00:00:09
need funding. I don't need anything. Actually, there's one thing I do need. I
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can't cook. >> You go from being basically just a regular civilian to being a household
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name overnight. >> I'd walk down the street lamp key and see the poster of the front page. I was
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asked in my press conference, are you going to have children? >> You got hit by a car while crossing
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oriental. >> I was mugged. >> You lost your dad during CO. >> He deliberately chose to die when there
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was no one else in the room. And my best friend died at 66. >> Are you proud of yourself?
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>> I've already bought my cemetery plot. I've made the best of the one I was
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given. >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:41
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:44
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
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Holland one in to it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here you'll find our top performers helping
00:00:59
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get an F in maximize. Generate. >> Putting performance first.
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>> Theresa Gatting. Welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you. >> This booking has been in the diary for
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maybe 6 months. >> Yeah, I think it has. >> And that booking was done by your your
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assistant Chris who I've been going backwards and forwards with. And I think
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I I don't know but on the surface I think this relationship with um what what is she? EA PA. She calls herself um
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CEO to Theresa Gatting. So um she's everything really. So h she's my assistant, but she's more than that.
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She's my right-hand person. She's my conscience. She's my just my best
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friend. Just you know, wonderful. So we met um the story about how we met is that when I got the job, gosh, I don't
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know how many years ago now. Is it 25 years ago as the head of oh longer than that actually? head of marketing at
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telecom. >> Someone said to me, "Oh, um, cuz the previous head of marketing had retired
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to go back to the US, Tom Patriqueus, and uh, someone said to me, oh, he's had
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wonderful PA, Chris Woodwiss, but she doesn't want to work for a woman, so she's going to, you know, leave before
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you turn up." So, I thought, "Oh, I got to take her to lunch, ask her to give me
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a chance." And, uh, so I took her to lunch and realized immediately that we've actually got very similar
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coloring. And um we got on I don't know just like two redheads we got on really
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well and I said oh Chris please give me a chance don't leave before I turn up.
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So she said sure. So on the first day I going to my you know those days you have
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a big office and sat at the desk and she'd written up everything for the day
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etc. And of course in the first day I wanted to meet the existing marketing team. So I met them all and at the end
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of that day I I asked her her views about some of the things they'd said and
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some of the things and she didn't say anything. And then the next morning I came in and she gave
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me a written summary of all the questions I'd asked and what she thought and all this [ __ ] And I said, "Wow,
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this is great. This woman's got really good insights. Probably got quite good
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judgment." >> And she said to me, "You're the first boss I've ever had who's ever who ever
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asked my opinion about anything." So she'd worked for men forever who cuz in
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those days she was probably still doing shorthand but she was certainly typing and organizing meetings and everything
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and >> this is pre that was way pre- internet that was the role of the EA when I
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joined telecom in that role I was given a pager and a mobile phone was huge it's
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way pre- internet I mean it's years pre- internet >> but yeah this is remarkable though and I
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think it speaks a lot about you as a person perhaps that you've um been in a
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relationship with this person for over 30 years now. Yeah. Well, many many people were married twice or three times
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in that time frame. So, we worked together really well. She was a fantastic um assistant to me when I
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became CEO and then when I left telecom. So, so they suffered a bit in the crash
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earthquakes and so she left Wellington to go and live in Christ Church. I took a year off. She needed to keep working
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and then after the earthquakes they moved to Nelson where she's been ever since. And after I got going again and
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had had enough income coming in, enough interesting work, I really asked her to come back and work with me again and she
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did. And so we've been together the best part of 30 years now. >> Incredible.
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>> Yeah. >> Um you're still really busy, eh? So you you're flowing in from Queenstown today.
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Tonight you're flying down to Wellington. >> Um >> you're doing semi-retirement terribly.
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>> You just love being busy or >> Well, I burnt out twice, so I'm not
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perhaps I'm not really a good role model for how to balance. I I don't see myself
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as semi-retired, but I do see myself as in in transition. I stopped doing a few things last year and I want to I'm well
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into my 60s now and I I want to do things that matter to me that I enjoy with people I care about ideally people
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I love in New Zealand and overseas and just be off the relentless hamster wheel of having to be responsible. I'm eldest
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girl a very responsible gene and got very responsible gene. So it's so I am I
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have um I've just spent I'm in the middle of two weeks with a good friend
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of mine who's come here from the US and so mostly I've been able to do a bit of
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work on the side but the main thing in the last 10 days has been having fun at some of New Zealand's most wonderful
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places. >> Yeah. Oh fantastic. I read a quote from you. I'm not very nice if I haven't had
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my morning swim. Did you swim today? >> Of course. >> Oh yeah. Oh god.
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>> That's true by the way. >> Is it? >> Oh yeah. It's much more important to me
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the quality of the hotel swimming pool than the room itself. >> Yeah. You're a lifelong swimmer, aren't
00:05:32
you? You've done this through the '9s, like when you were CEO of Telecom.
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>> Oh, absolutely. And then I lived in Wellington and I had a lovely apartment
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across the road from Fryberg swimming pool, which is where I intend to spend swim tomorrow morning by the way cuz I'm
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I'm going to stay at hotel along that strip. So, I love swimming. My parents
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came from Britain. They couldn't swim and all of us went to swimming lessons
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in Rooua. We were a member of the coach club and I loved it. And so, I swam and competed, but I wasn't very good. But I
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swam all through my um teenage years. And then when I went to university, my first degree, business degree, I sort of
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stopped swimming. Um played bon did other things. And then law school, I didn't swim. And then when I hit the
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workforce, I really felt very, you know, stressed under pressure. And I realized
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I needed to go back to it. And so that's when I started swimming again in my
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early 20ies. And I have swam every day since then except for the twice I've been in hospital for a week at a time. I
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can't swim then. And I completely wrecked my Achilles playing tennis and I broke my wrist being thrown from my
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horse. So when I've had broken bones, I haven't swam. And occasionally I've had
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a chest infection. But honestly, it it would only it would only be a few weeks in the last 40 years have I not swam in
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the morning. That's how I made swimming is how I made the connection with your
00:06:51
long relationship with um Chris. So there's an article I read where uh you got hit by a car while crossing oriental
00:06:57
parade and I think she bought you some knickers in the hospital or something. >> That's true.
00:07:02
That's true. Oh well that was a good service cuz after that they painted a line so it wouldn't happen to anybody
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else. >> Yeah. >> Look at you game changing constantly. Um so you you don't do too many podcasts
00:07:12
these days eh? Like you're you're feeling under the radar. >> I don't really. Um,
00:07:18
look, even this one, you know, it took months to fit in. And so, I've done I I've done a few for
00:07:26
people who I, you know, I Amanda Miller, we've go back a long way. She's done
00:07:31
she's done favors for me. I wanted to do that for her. Um, Bruce Codall, I was
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very intrigued with his whole thing about leadership. So, I was happy to speak about that. And, um, Paula, um,
00:07:42
>> Bennett, yeah, >> Bennett, we also go back a long way. I I've done it for people who I have an
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affinity with because that's really the whole point of my life. Now you're an
00:07:50
exception cuz I don't know you. But you asked in a really good way and I thought, "Oh yeah, if I haven't done one
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for a while, I'll do one." >> Amazing. I can't even remember how I
00:08:01
asked. Chad GPT must have done me well. So when you do these things, what is the
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thing that people don't ask you about enough that they possibly should? Uh well there isn't there isn't really
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anything because it with Amanda she was quite focused on a gender lens because she knows I'm a feminist. She knows I'm
00:08:19
chair of global women. She knows I set up the foundation with my sister to focus on supporting women and girls. And
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so that was that was whereas the um Bruce one Bruce Cordon was more about leadership like lessons and leadership.
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So they've all sort of had different themes and so they're asking within the
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format of 45 minutes or an hour about you know that theme and so there's they've all they've all omitted various
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things because it wasn't really their focus. >> Yeah. What are you reading right now?
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You love reading a you're a ferocious reader. A book a week. >> Veracious reader.
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>> What did I say? >> Ferocious. >> That might be true too. Oh yeah. I read
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a book a week. I read nearly a book a week last year because I had back surgery last year. So I was in recovery
00:09:03
and then I got a leg infection and then I had a bad fall. So last year I was had
00:09:07
a lot of time to read but even this time I'm doing quite well. I'll be reading on
00:09:10
the plane today. Well Sarah Robinson changed my life when she bought me a Kindle in hospital last year because now
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I have a book on the go on Kindle and one or two books on the go hard copy and it's just like so I don't want to talk
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about what I'm reading right now. I want to talk about some of the best books I
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read last year cuz that would be better cuz what I'm neither of the books I'm
00:09:28
reading right now do I think are my are the best. They're not going to be the
00:09:31
best of 2026 and they're not better than the best books of 2025. >> And by the way, if you start reading a
00:09:36
book and you're not enjoying it, how do you do you follow it through or do you
00:09:39
give up on it? >> Nearly always. There are only a few books that I stop. I I first of all I
00:09:46
would never give up on a book until I was halfway through it because some books take that while to you know and um
00:09:52
so I would never give up a book till I was halfway through but I've got a few
00:09:55
books in my shelf that I got to sort of that point I thought oh no you know this
00:09:59
life's too too short not the next great book turned up >> so my favorite books of last year my
00:10:04
favorite book of last year was um Alice win in memoriam and the reason I mention
00:10:10
this is this is a book that I would never have chosen myself. It was recommended to me by my great friend in
00:10:17
reading buddy Pip Greenwood cuz her book group were do were looking when reading
00:10:21
it and I never would have chosen it. It was about men fighting in the First World War. I mean, exactly. It's like it
00:10:29
was so powerful. I then bought another friend for Christmas. She loved it and it is it it was amazing. So, I I
00:10:36
thoroughly recommend it whether you're interested in the First World War or not. It goes into themes about
00:10:40
homosexuality. It goes into class. um you know that the officers ran the show even though most of them didn't know
00:10:46
what the hell they were doing whereas some of the troops they were commanding had a much better idea of what the
00:10:51
strategy should have been. Anyway, it it was it's brilliant. Another book that I
00:10:55
loved last year was Wild Dark Shore Charlotte McConn. And this is set in Tasmania and in and down to the Southern
00:11:02
Tartic Islands and it's a it's an ode to nature within a thriller within a love
00:11:06
story. It's a fantastic read. And uh another great book that I read was Covenant of Water Abraham Vazi which is
00:11:14
a saga set in India over you know generations but it's just the most moving book. So that's some of my three
00:11:20
great books from last year. >> Are there any alltime great books like are you are you generally sort of like a
00:11:26
fiction or a non-fiction? >> Um I I I I read memoirs. I read a lot of memoirs and a lot of non and a lot of
00:11:33
fiction. I do read some other non-fiction. Uh, for example, the book I bought in Queenstown was Pools of the
00:11:39
World. Why wouldn't I buy the book Best Pools of the World? So, but that's, you
00:11:44
know, >> that's such a niche. >> It's my best books of all time. Um,
00:11:49
memoir, Sharon Stone, The Beauty Living Twice. >> Fantastic book about her um, uh, brain
00:11:55
tumor and her recovery from that. >> Andre Agassy, Open. >> Oh my god, that book's incredible.
00:12:00
>> Incredible. I liked him way less when I finished it than when I started. So, you
00:12:04
know, that's that's uh that's that's how honest that that book was. Uh fiction,
00:12:10
still life, that's an ode to Italy, which is my favorite country outside New
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Zealand. Still life by Sarah Winman. And I always have always loved The Handmaid's Tale, you know, that was my
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favorite book well before the movie and the TV series and and um what's going on
00:12:24
in America now. I always thought it was a potential horror future rather than just fiction.
00:12:30
>> Yeah. >> Thanks for those insights. Um, I want to go back to your childhood.
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>> I've got a photo here. Gorgeous photo. >> Yes. >> The woman sitting in front of me in her
00:12:40
60s today. >> Yes. >> How is she the same as that girl with the pigtail?
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>> Well, I think she is the same cuz you can see that she's got a really happy energy.
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>> And she's doing what she's told. She's sitting up. She's got a hair class. I
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mean, I don't wear plats anymore, but you know, I have a fringe, although usually better cut than that.
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Um yeah, I I was a goody two shoes at school and um cuz you know my parents came from Britain, John and Marian
00:13:09
Gatting to escape the lack of opportunity of their backgrounds and they wanted the best for their four
00:13:15
girls. I'm the eldest of four. I'm close to all three of my sisters, Evan,
00:13:19
Andrew, and Marian. There's only four, you know, three and a half years between
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us. And education was the key to the future cuz ne no one from their family had ever gone to university. So, I was
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on a path at school to study hard and to go to university and to, you know, make
00:13:34
something of myself. And then something formative happened to me when I was a bit older than this. I think I'm about
00:13:38
11 in that photo. When I was 14, I asked my parents if they would pay for me to go to New Calonia on the school trip. I
00:13:45
studying French. And they said no, cuz if they paid for me to pay for my sisters as well. And I was like I was
00:13:52
like heartbroken. And I made a vow to myself then that I would earn enough money for myself that I would be able to
00:13:59
do what it was that I wanted to do. That no one I wouldn't ask I would never have
00:14:04
to ask anyone for money again. And I basically haven't. >> I started work when I was 15. I've earn
00:14:09
I've earned ever since then. And um I've never asked anyone for money. >> And your your dad John um I believe he
00:14:17
installed in you and your sisters a thing like don't rely on the government,
00:14:20
don't rely on a man. >> He did. He did. He was >> fend for yourself.
00:14:24
>> Yeah. Well, first of all, dad um had very good values around money. I think a
00:14:28
lot of people think money is a stock and if you have it, then I can't have it.
00:14:33
And that >> scarity mindset, >> scarcity mindset. Dad wasn't like that.
00:14:36
Dad was an abundance mindset. Dad was there's enough money for all. You can create what you know there's many ways
00:14:42
to create it. And so I always think of money as energy. And he used to say you can create it yourself. You have to rely
00:14:50
on yourself because government policies change. Governments come and go. And you
00:14:55
know, if you're relying on your husband, they can get sick. They can get made
00:14:58
redundant. They can leave you. So, I always remember him saying, "You need to
00:15:02
be able to earn enough to support yourself and any children you may wish to have."
00:15:06
>> God, you had good role models with your parents, didn't you? >> Yeah. Really good role models.
00:15:10
>> This this 11-year-old Theresa, so she she was allowed to think big and think
00:15:14
that anything was possible, but the the options then were pretty limited, right?
00:15:18
1960s New Zealand for a girl. >> Well, I suppose they were, but they weren't limited in my mind.
00:15:22
>> Yeah. >> Um I I read, my mother read a lot. We we'd go to the library every week. We'd
00:15:29
get two books out a week. I'd read them and take them back. And then when I got
00:15:34
to high school, I studied extra subjects. When I was 15, I was doing everything you could. And I I just
00:15:40
didn't really see any any limitation. But it is true that um when I went to tell the pr the principal of the school,
00:15:48
it was an all girls very small Catholic all girls school. They assumed that their girls were all going off to be
00:15:54
like teachers or you know nurses. I mean there was but you know my best friend who was also a joint duck she went off
00:16:00
to be a doctor >> and I decided to go to Wetto and and do a uh do a management degree.
00:16:06
>> And your family nickname was Chief Girl. >> Yes. Is that just cuz you're the oldest
00:16:12
or you you were just bossy or >> Well, both of those. But when the story goes that when um see both dad dad's
00:16:19
father had died, but dad's mom came to New Zealand and with a couple of her sisters and their and mom's parents came
00:16:24
to New Zealand as well. And the story goes that when mom and dad's when mom's
00:16:28
parents turned up, I greeted them by saying, "I'm Theresa and I'm Chief
00:16:32
Girl." >> Where did that come from? >> Well, I don't know. Dad must have called
00:16:37
me that or someone. It must have I must have been called that. But it's like I I
00:16:41
obviously took on the identification of that. >> Oh. Um yeah, just a a fun fact about
00:16:46
your secondary school year. You you went to the same secondary school as um Dame
00:16:50
Susan Deo. She was a year behind >> behind you. >> Yes. >> Two dames two years in a row. That's
00:16:55
incredible. >> Yes. There's this there there probably are some other there are some other Hana
00:17:01
Manipoto went to that school as well. >> Oh, from Moana and the Mahunters, former
00:17:05
wife of Willie Jackson. >> Yep. Um I remember we had dinner a couple of years ago and she said oh yeah
00:17:10
so it was a very small school and it was quite good though because the nuns were
00:17:15
good role models you know that there was women running that school that's a that's a it wasn't until I went to him
00:17:20
have classes maths classes at 16 the boy school next door that I encountered any
00:17:24
teachers thinking that I there was something I couldn't do >> so there was no sort of sexism in your
00:17:30
in your your early years your childhood >> it wasn't a thing my father had five
00:17:35
sisters and no brothers So he and he's very very close to his mother, enormous
00:17:40
respect for his mother. She set up her own wall shop like she was quite entrepreneurial for her era and he
00:17:46
really respected her and he really was a great husband to my mom who's still
00:17:50
alive because he he saw potential in her that she might not have seen in herself
00:17:54
and encouraged her to be an entrepreneur and to and she really blossomed. So my father has always he's very considered
00:18:01
man physically not very active. Even when he was young, his favorite sport was fishing. You know, not very active
00:18:06
physically, but uh very big picture thinker and um uh quietly insightful about people. And you know, at his
00:18:14
funeral, the impact he'd had on the grandchildren, my three sisters have all
00:18:18
all had children, was phenomenal. You know, what he'd been able to convey to
00:18:22
them and um you know, so yeah, quite not not a big person publicly, but privately
00:18:29
had a huge impact. He of course was um really bright but could had to leave school early to support his family.
00:18:36
>> Came to New Zealand, became a town planner and it wasn't until I heard him
00:18:39
speak at my uh mother's mother's funeral that I realized what a good ortor he
00:18:45
was, what a good speaker he was and I thought gosh I love debating. I've got
00:18:48
that from my dad. >> Yeah. So after school you studied business at Wicked and then Lauren Wellington. Um
00:18:56
>> you you used to wear power seats to you know why why did you cuz I'm I don't know. It It says a lot
00:19:03
about your um strong will of character, I guess. Cuz at that age, all I want to do is fit in.
00:19:08
>> Oh, yeah. >> So, if everyone else was wearing um Abberrombie and Fitch, I'd want to wear
00:19:12
Abberrombie and Fitch. I'm guessing not many people were wearing like power suits to their lectures.
00:19:16
>> Well, this is White Cat and this was business school was literally in a
00:19:21
converted cow shed. And this is before daring was as sexy as it is today. And it was nearly all male and the only
00:19:29
women in class were doing accounting as majors and I was doing economics and marketing
00:19:34
and I naturally like to stand out. I guess I've got a main character energy personality and I like colorful I like
00:19:40
color and in my life etc. So but but particularly about the suits was I decided in the second year of um
00:19:48
management school that I wanted to be a CEO and then I decided I started getting
00:19:54
clipping fold together of woman I admired who had become a CEO or achieved high leadership positions and so I
00:20:00
thought well I have to project it but it started before that. My sister Angela will tell you that when mom taught us
00:20:06
all to sew I made myself a suit. This is when I was like 16. So it started earlier but yes at university I wore
00:20:12
suits because I was projecting forward. >> Mhm. >> I wouldn't wear a suit now.
00:20:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And your boyfriend at the time had wear suits as
00:20:21
well. >> Yeah. He he well he came out as gay not long after that. But at that in that
00:20:27
point before it became obvious that we weren't going to have this sort of amazing new couple relationship. One
00:20:31
straight and one gay. Um he loved wearing every color Pakadan shirt with his suit. So yeah, we and he was tall,
00:20:39
very good-looking. I was tall. Uh so we must have looked a sight, but it was it was management school. But remember, it
00:20:46
wasn't just that. I was doing woman studies as well. So I I that was a very interesting period of my life. I have
00:20:52
almost no friends from that era because in management school I surrounded by blo
00:20:58
were definitely they they weren't very you know oriented to women being the equals. And then when I went over to
00:21:05
school of politics and women's studies, they didn't like people who were
00:21:09
commercial, who were actually feminist. I loved reading all the feminist literature. I love debating all of that.
00:21:14
I still look at the world through a gender lens. But I also want to make money. And that was a very unusual
00:21:20
combination >> 40 years ago. >> Oh, more than that. More than 40 years
00:21:24
ago. >> You've heard you describe yourself as a capitalist, feminist, feminist, and a
00:21:28
philanthropist. >> Yeah, it's still true. Was it when was that when you first encountered any sort
00:21:35
of sexism once you got out of the family home? And >> no, I first encountered sexism at school
00:21:40
when I had the shared classes next door with the brothers in the maths class when I can't remember the brother's
00:21:46
name, but he he didn't think that girls could do maths. That was a that was a
00:21:50
province for boys. That was a I was 16 by then and you know 16 year olds know everything. So there's no way that what
00:21:57
someone what some fusty dusty brother with his funny collar and everything is going to say is going to impact me at
00:22:04
that point. It's way too late. >> What a dumb thing to say. >> Well yeah was whatever he said or
00:22:10
whatever the attitude was. So that was the first time I encountered it. >> And then no doubt you encountered a lot
00:22:15
through your career. I believe you want to be a merchant banker and >> I did. Um you've done very good
00:22:19
research. Most people don't know about this. So um well I I went to W University because I like the fact that
00:22:27
business school had you could do languages, you could do woman studies and also my the boyfriend that not that
00:22:33
boyfriend the previous boyfriend was going there when I then I then but I'd always wanted
00:22:38
to do law as well and so I decided that by then I had a different boyfriend again who became my partner for over 20
00:22:45
years and he was going to Wellington and I thought yep I am going to do a law degree. I got job offers when I finished
00:22:50
business school. I got honors at business school. I got job offers but I decided to go to Wellington and do law.
00:22:55
About halfway through that I decided I didn't want to be a lawyer. I was already a manager with a team. I loved
00:23:01
it and I thought I don't want to be a lawyer. When I finished law school though after
00:23:06
I'd been at TVZ for a few years was my first job was in TV and zed sales and
00:23:11
marketing. I decided that um I would quite like to do investment banking. And so I tried to get a job in investment
00:23:16
banking. This is like, you know, the 80s heydays. And I I I I couldn't I tried
00:23:22
really hard and I couldn't get a job. And I got rejection letter. And when I
00:23:26
rang them, they said, "Well, it's it's not a place for a woman." They didn't
00:23:28
put that in the letter, but they told me that over the over the phone. And of course, that's terrible, but also it was
00:23:33
true, right? You know, all the only recent in recent years, there's been litigation about the fact that it's been
00:23:39
a terrible place for for women. So, but you know, my father also said, "When the
00:23:44
door closes, find a window." There's never one way to do anything in life.
00:23:48
There's always at least four ways to approach anything. There's no there's
00:23:52
there's you can't and and you can't be stopped really in your early 20ies. You
00:23:56
just have to, you know, do something else. >> That's um it's fascinating that they
00:24:03
told you over the phone they didn't put in writing. Says to me, they they knew
00:24:05
it was >> Oh, they knew. They knew it was they knew they they didn't want to put it in
00:24:09
writing. >> Very clever. >> Yeah. >> Unbelievable. And then you so you're
00:24:13
working at National Mutual in your 20s and this is when you suffer your first experience with burnout.
00:24:18
>> Yes, because I'm still doing law school and I was a little bit sensible. I they
00:24:23
asked me did I want to do honors in law and I said no, I wouldn't cope with the
00:24:26
pressure and the workload because by then I was working full-time as well. And so I was working full-time and
00:24:31
studying full-time and putting putting myself under pressure. And I then ended up with tremendous pain in my teeth.
00:24:39
>> M >> and you know like like when you have to have your teeth root filled like an
00:24:44
abscess pain and it just went on and on and I got more and more teeth didn't go
00:24:48
away. This went on for nearly a year and eventually I ended up um referred to Wellington Hospital to the head of
00:24:54
dental there and he said you've got temporal mandibular joint syndrome TMJ nothing to do with your teeth but we can
00:25:00
give you a bite plate and that can take the pressure off at night and that really helped and then I started having
00:25:07
um well it wasn't osteopathy then I think it was chiropractor but I started having back manipulations but that's
00:25:14
when I also uh by that point I was swimming By that point I was swimming but I then I stopped drinking coffee at
00:25:21
that point and I I'd already stopped drinking alcohol. I never really drank alcohol at university.
00:25:27
So I started um just being more disciplined about my life because I wanted to be well and that was in my
00:25:32
mid20ies. >> Yeah. >> Um you suffered another bad of burnout later on when you were at Telecom. But
00:25:38
>> no no no my next burnout was in my mid-50s after after we we sold um my
00:25:44
food bag. No, I didn't suffer burnout at telecom. God, how how did how did you
00:25:48
not? >> Cuz I had such a fantastic team and because when you're 40, you've got a
00:25:53
huge amount of energy. You've got See, in your 20ies, you're sort of so impatient. You think you have to achieve
00:26:00
everything to drink and morning tea. So, I push myself too hard. By your 40s, you've actually got a much better idea
00:26:06
of what you need. Like, you got to manage your sleep and you got people around you. And then again, but then by
00:26:13
your 50s, you for me anyway, my mid late 50s, I thought I still had the energy that I had in my 40s and I didn't. And
00:26:19
so I burnt out then. Yeah. >> Cuz the woman sitting in front of me today, she seems to have like a
00:26:25
tremendous amount of energy and you're doing so much work, but I suppose you've
00:26:28
just got the um I don't know, the muscle memory, if that's the term, like the
00:26:31
capacity to do all this work like which seems crazy to me, but it's a lifetime
00:26:35
of >> Well, a lot of it brings me joy. you know the foundation uh setting up the
00:26:40
chair of women entrepreneurship at Oakland >> business school Oakland University that
00:26:45
is really joyful. I you know when when and when I you know I was trying to get uh establish a chair chair of woman
00:26:53
entrepreneurship so that women who are at business school and women doing other things like arts and science could do
00:26:58
courses in entrepreneurship and men too and that's exactly it's worked out like
00:27:02
that. It's brilliant and it just filled my heart with joy when in the first year
00:27:06
of offering these courses after that first year some of the women who've done
00:27:09
it decided to create a version of it for school girls. So you know hundreds and hundreds of Oakland school girls from
00:27:17
lower desile schools 11 and 12 and 13 year olds have gone to the university for a day to learn about
00:27:22
entrepreneurship. Now when you're 11 people don't say well girls from South
00:27:25
Oakland can't achieve that or you know whatever. So that was like just that brings me so much joy. So yes, it's
00:27:34
work. Um it costs money, but it's like it's joyful. It's like what else do you
00:27:39
do? I but I do find myself in a situation where I'm still busy making money and then shoveling as much as I
00:27:44
make away out the other side. It's like some people would say, "What the hell?"
00:27:49
That's what I find myself doing at the moment. >> But you got to do things with your money
00:27:53
that brings you joy. >> Yeah. >> And it seems like you do. Whether it's
00:27:56
um whether it's you know buying a house with a nice swimming pool which is something that's important to you or
00:28:01
having a nice vehicle which you're rolled up in today or or giving it away. >> Yeah.
00:28:05
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So telecom let's talk about that. So 1997
00:28:11
>> you become CEO the the >> 1999 I became CEO9. >> Who was the prime minister at the time?
00:28:16
Was it Shipley or Clark? >> Yes it was Jenny Shipley and then Helen Clark won that election. So and you know
00:28:22
I'm I'm good mates with both those women today. M >> so New Zealand's a small place and um
00:28:28
Helen Clark, Sylvia Cartwright, Margaret Wilson and I have had a lovely lunch together, you know, between Christmas
00:28:35
and New Year this year because Helen, Sylvia and I all love Wahhee Beach. It's
00:28:40
like um my Tingway. So yes, that that was the and Sylvia spoke at a conference not soon in that year and she was
00:28:49
talking about you know um women running the biggest company, woman prime minister, woman leader of the
00:28:54
opposition, woman high court cuz Sha was chief justice and she said well my prediction is that they'll all be
00:29:02
replaced by men and that's exactly what happened. So it was like a false dawn.
00:29:05
It was like this oh woman running everything we've got equality at last but it it it really wasn't. It was just
00:29:11
the coincidence of a group of remarkable women who were determined and talented and made it to the top and that's really
00:29:18
inspiring for girls and younger women coming through and we've we've carried
00:29:22
on. All of us live in New Zealand. All of us are trying to make New Zealand the best it can be cuz it's a beacon of hope
00:29:28
in the world. That's for sure at the moment. Uh but it was never it was still
00:29:32
it wasn't systems that achieved that. So that's one of the reasons I've loved
00:29:36
cheering Global Woman over the last few years because now there are a few more female CEOs and a few more female chairs
00:29:41
of companies and companies totally committed to, you know, parental leave in a way that hasn't been done before
00:29:48
and um gender pay gap reporting and all of those things that change the system for the woman coming through.
00:29:56
>> So just over a quarter of a century later from getting that telecom job, is
00:30:00
is it better for women in New Zealand now or is it much it is >> No, it is better. It's
00:30:03
>> much better. um >> still still a lot of work to do. >> Well, that depends if in terms of
00:30:09
corporates, yes, I think it is much better. New Zealand has um really had a decade now of more and more women
00:30:16
getting on boards. And if you look at the banking sector, so ASB has a female CEO, Victoria Short, and a female chair,
00:30:24
Dame Theres Walsh. >> Westpak has a female CEO, Katherine McGr, a female chair, Pip Greenwood.
00:30:30
Kiwi Bank has a female chair, Susan Peterson. Uh, A&Z has a female CEO, Antonio
00:30:36
Watson, who actually saw at dinner last night. So, that's a lot. And now we've
00:30:41
got a female Governor Reserve Bank, Anna Breman, and we've got a female minister
00:30:45
of finance, Nicola Willis. Now, there isn't I don't think there's any other
00:30:50
country in the whole damn world that would have women controlling the poutia like that. You show me a country where
00:30:55
they got women running the banking system. Is there such a country? So in corporate life it's got much better but
00:31:04
the last 10 years so I'm you know I cheered um AIA which is um one of one of
00:31:09
the two biggest life insurance companies in the world. I cheered Australia for a
00:31:12
decade and then when they bought sovereign in New Zealand I cheered New Zealand for the last seven eight years
00:31:16
and just stopped at the end end of last year because I want to do a bit less. And when you look at um oh what did I
00:31:24
say that? Oh yes. So if you look at corporates, yes, I think it's got a lot better. But in the last 15 years, apart
00:31:29
from doing AIA and Last Fusion, I've been mainly involved in entrepreneurialism because Selia
00:31:35
Robinson had the wonderful idea to set up my food bag and we did that with Celia and James Robinson, Nadia Lim and
00:31:41
her husband Carlos Bagry and now I'm doing um I'm the chair and big investor
00:31:46
in Tend which is the next startup tent healthcare, the next startup that James and Sector. So through that process and
00:31:54
also the I brought Shio to New Zealand to fund women's businesses and then I
00:31:58
set up the center at the Oakland business school. So I've become more in the entrepreneurial space and in that
00:32:02
space it's still much harder to be a woman. The stats are shocking. It is so much harder to raise capital if
00:32:09
you're one woman or two women than if you're one man or two men. And if I
00:32:14
speak now to woman aspiring entrepreneurs, I say honey, find a male co-founder. It's going to be so much
00:32:22
easier. It's not the way the world should be, but it is the way the world is. There are hardly any invest there. I
00:32:28
don't think there are any investment committees in New Zealand that are gender balanced, male and female.
00:32:33
>> There are there male. They look for patterns that they're familiar with.
00:32:37
They don't see problems as women experience them. And this is this is true in healthcare as well. Um, a few
00:32:43
years ago after my second burnout, I went to a place doesn't exist now where
00:32:47
they do a full sort of health check. And they put me on this program for restricted eating, restricted protein,
00:32:54
restricted carb for 5 days and you stop. And I felt like [ __ ] I did it twice. And I said to the doctor who put me on
00:33:00
it, who was a woman, I'm not doing that again. I felt emotionally flat. I felt
00:33:04
physically unwell. I'm not sacrificing work in my life. Anyway, she left because she had maternity leave. And
00:33:10
then a male doctor turned up. He said, "Oh no." He said, "The latest research
00:33:14
shows that's great for men but terrible for women cuz it pushes up their hormones. said to Tessterone
00:33:19
>> and later I spoke to the woman doctor who put me on it and she said yeah she
00:33:23
said I always really struggled but the men in the clinic loved it and so health isn't always it's done on a male body
00:33:28
but female bodies are different so >> not just little men >> no not just little men so how did I get
00:33:34
on to that it's so is it better for women yes in the corporate space in New Zealand I think it's a lot better than
00:33:42
you know the decades ago but on the entrepreneurial space it's still tougher
00:33:47
if you're a M. >> So 1999 when you land that job at Telecom, what what's that like? You go
00:33:53
from being um basically just a regular civilian to being a household name overnight.
00:33:58
>> That is what happened. >> It must have been wild. >> Well, it was wild. I'd walk down the
00:34:02
street lamp key and see the the poster of the front page. And of course in those times we weren't all buried on our
00:34:09
phones in the internet, right? So if people are reading the I don't know if it was the Dom then or the Dom post, but
00:34:14
people people are reading paper. I still read the paper by the way. I still get hard copy. I still like reading the B.
00:34:18
>> You're old school. >> I'm old school. I popped in my letter
00:34:21
box this morning and got my Herald. >> When I I flick through it in the cafe
00:34:24
whenever I'm there. It kind of gets thinner and thinner, doesn't it? >> Well, it depends. Um I quite like
00:34:29
Wednesday is a Viva session. So I quite like today. >> The pull out the pull out guide. Yeah.
00:34:34
So So 199 I mean um there was Yeah. No internet then. So there was no social media. So there was none of that sort of
00:34:39
backlash. But >> yeah, what what were collections of the time? >> Bewilderment. I mean in shock. It wasn't
00:34:47
negative at all. It was like mic drop moment. Say what? A young woman. Say what? And of course I was 37.
00:34:55
Guess who else was 37? She became prime minister. And I was asked in my press conference, are you going to have
00:34:59
children? Now I knew I wasn't I wasn't going to, but I don't think I said that.
00:35:04
So isn't it interesting that I don't know how many years later, 20 years
00:35:07
later, Justinda becomes prime minister. She gets asked the same question. >> So nothing so much had changed but
00:35:12
nothing had changed. >> So so much had changed but nothing had changed. Yeah.
00:35:15
>> Did you um you just mentioned the kids thing then. Yeah. Was that a a a
00:35:19
decision by you or was it just something you were so busy that you missed that window?
00:35:23
>> No. No. No. It was a decision. I knew at 16 that I didn't have the energy to do
00:35:27
everything I wanted in my life and have children. And um then John and I got together when we were 21 and he didn't
00:35:33
want children either. >> And so that was a very happy, you know, situation. And I never went through I
00:35:40
went through menopause quite early. I never went through a last minute my my best friend who died Margaret Ducas
00:35:46
would very sad story um you know she turned 40 she was like oh she really thought again should I have a child but
00:35:52
I I didn't I I just knew I really need a good solid 8 hours sleep a night and I
00:35:57
just don't imagine I could ever have but that's got much better I wouldn't want
00:36:01
to anyone listening to think that's such so much of a problem now corporates are
00:36:05
much better but in my day you had to be able to do this go there do that you had
00:36:10
you could be a woman but you sort of had to sit intents of purpose. It sort of had to be a available like a man was.
00:36:15
Yeah. >> So, it was sort of one or the other really. You had to pick. >> Well, I mean, Sylvie Cara didn't have
00:36:20
kids. Helen Clark didn't have kids. I mean, just have a look at the woman from
00:36:23
that era and on the whole, we didn't have children. >> Did you in and when you first landed
00:36:28
that role um at such a young age is what? [ __ ] it is young. Eh, you look back now from like I'm I'm 53, you're in
00:36:34
your 60s. >> Yeah. Look back now, you think it's young. >> If I see a 37y old I think they're a kid
00:36:38
now. Did you did you experience any agism >> like from >> Not really cuz I'd been in the company
00:36:44
for about seven years at that maybe. Yeah, I've been in the company for a while at that point and a lot of people
00:36:50
internally were delighted and so no I didn't really experience agism cuz Rodick was still chair. He'd gone from
00:36:57
being CEO to chair. >> Rodick Dean he was >> and so it just it it was quite a it was
00:37:03
quite a happy and it was quite a happy transition really. What did an average day look like in that? No emails then.
00:37:09
>> Oh, no. No, there were emails by then. >> There was emails. Yeah, there were
00:37:11
emails by then, >> but not on there was no Blackmail. >> I'm trying to remember. I remember the
00:37:16
Harriet the Hawker the first the first smartphone I had. Well, I'm trying to
00:37:21
remember what it name was. I It's not like an iPhone or a uh Samsung Galaxy today, but um there were by the time I
00:37:29
was CEO, yeah, there were you you could get emails on your phone, you could get news on your phone. So that had started
00:37:34
but not the social media of of like today but yeah no we were moving at a faster pace
00:37:39
>> that that period from when I joined telecom to became CEO the technology
00:37:44
change was incredible it went from landlines and pages to getting all your information on your phone that's how
00:37:50
fast although the phones were a bit bigger than they are today then they got smaller again bigger again but that few
00:37:56
years that five six years was quite a you know looking back you go wow yeah >> it's it's wild. And I I think um we're
00:38:04
so lucky to have lived through all of this, you know, the the the landline, the the TV with two channels, one
00:38:10
channel, two channels to the to where we're at now. Like it's it's a wonderful
00:38:13
thing to live through. >> We might be the lucky generation, though. You mentioned about Celia being
00:38:16
on your show about under 16. I mean, I think social media is >> so harmful in many contexts that um
00:38:24
>> we we might be the we might be the lucky generation. We got the good things about
00:38:28
the internet without a lot of the toxic downside. But our nieces, nephews, children, daughters, granddaughters are
00:38:34
possibly facing a lot of the worst of it. So yeah, technology is a is a is both a blessing and a curse.
00:38:41
>> Was was Y2K and the Y2K bug a big thing for you? Do you remember that? >> We wasted millions on that. Y2K. Yes.
00:38:49
For anyone that doesn't remember, like on midnight on the 31st of December 1999, no one no one was sure what was
00:38:55
going to happen to all the computer technology around the world. Yes. I wonder what it was like being CEO of
00:38:59
like a teleico at that point. >> Oh well, that was a huge project. We're
00:39:03
paying consultants. We managed it. And then at midnight, clock ticked midnight, 1 minute past, guess what? Nothing.
00:39:10
Everything's still working. I mean, you know, that's interesting, Dom, as you
00:39:15
mentioned that because the world just moved on. I've never seen an analysis.
00:39:19
Was that a fraud? Was that just a Was that was a fraud perpetuated by the world's consultants or was that just
00:39:27
excess conservatism and when it got hold companies couldn't afford to miss the
00:39:31
bus in case there was a problem? >> There was a massive ad campaign that was
00:39:36
unavoidable. >> It was it was huge. Not just in New Zealand like it was big. It was a big
00:39:40
thing. >> So in that job, what was a what was a good day and what was a bad day?
00:39:45
Well, that job changed, you know, over eight years. It changed a lot. A good day was obviously when we did, you know,
00:39:54
we we were selling lots of mobile phones. The share price was either rising or high. Um, a bad day was when I
00:40:02
wake up somewhere in America or the UK completely jetlagged and got to go and talk to investors for the day.
00:40:09
Yeah, it was physically tough to um be running a business while you were overseas and it was because all most
00:40:15
investors lived overseas. It was only possible because I had a fantastic team. >> Some of them I promoted and some of them
00:40:21
I recruited. >> How how did you manage to keep swimming and prioritize your health and wellbeing
00:40:26
during that >> because I um sh I shifted from when I became CEO I was actually living in
00:40:32
Kelburn but later I lived in Oriental Parade and had a swimming pool across the road.
00:40:37
>> Yeah. Fryberg. Yeah. If you had to describe your leadership style back then
00:40:41
in three words, what would it be? >> Well, one of them would definitely be
00:40:45
driven. F driven, some version of driven, fastpaced. Um, but I always made time for um team
00:40:54
bonding sessions like get, you know, it was very important to me that the team worked collaboratively, not in little
00:41:00
silos. So, we we also we had fun together and there was a high degree of trust, camaraderie. So, I'd also say
00:41:07
camaraderie. I mean, Rodri and I had a great relationship. Um, he had been my mentor when I had been working, you
00:41:14
know, for him. And so, it was a lot of camaraderie as well as um it being pretty demanding pace.
00:41:22
>> If if you could go back and give 37y old Theresa um some one piece of advice like
00:41:27
about management or leadership or being a CEO, what would it what would it be? >> Oh, it wouldn't be any of those things.
00:41:32
it would be don't neglect your partner while you're working, you know, so hard
00:41:36
because that was one of the reasons that not the only reason, but it was definitely one of the reasons that led
00:41:40
to um my separation from John is just because that job is relentless and it's
00:41:45
very hard to, >> you know, it's very hard to be the partner of someone who's in the media if
00:41:51
if you're a shy person doesn't want to be in the media, who's working at that
00:41:54
pace and who is switched on all the time. >> Yeah. John Savage. >> Yeah.
00:42:00
>> Yeah. Are you comfortable talking about him or >> Well, we was a long relationship. E 22
00:42:06
years. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're still friends. He lives in uh the South Island now. I'm
00:42:10
also mates with his partner who's been with for over 10 years. So, I feel like,
00:42:15
you know, completely resolved. He was a friend before we were partners. He became a friend afterwards. Uh and yeah,
00:42:23
I'm I haven't repartnered since, not in any sort of permanent way. And that's that's
00:42:30
interesting too. That's um you know it's really it's I I think I'm still quite a
00:42:35
handful for a a man because I don't need anything. I don't need emotional
00:42:39
support. I don't need funding. I don't need anything. Actually, there's one
00:42:43
thing I do need. I can't cook. So, you know, my food bag was a great joy to set
00:42:48
up. >> Have you But there's um there's a distinct difference between being alone
00:42:53
and being lonely. >> Oh, yeah. I'm never lonely. Never. I've got such great friends and close to my
00:42:58
family and >> yeah, I've got my wonderful dog Ollie. Who knew? All my life was a cat person
00:43:03
and then at 61 I became a dog person. >> Waring dogs are like having like a child
00:43:08
that never grows up and does anything to piss you off ever. >> They're so they love you all the time.
00:43:14
>> Yeah. >> I I found a quote from you talking about um John Savage. Um it's it's wonderful
00:43:19
words. I think his support of me in the 22 years we'd been together was without
00:43:24
president in terms of the support I'd ever seen any other woman receive. It's
00:43:28
a beautiful quote. >> Yeah, it it's true. He was um he was wonderful and that in a way when it when
00:43:35
it stopped working for him I we we had a very non-accrimonious split because I think that he had given
00:43:43
me a lot and if and in the end you want the person you're with to be happy and
00:43:46
if they're not happy well then they have to do something about that. So yeah,
00:43:51
actually what happened was the turmoil at telecom happened very soon on the heels of that. So I really got swept up
00:43:57
and having to deal with um the government reeregulating telecommunications etc. So it wasn't
00:44:03
really until after I left telecom that I was that point I was single and jobless
00:44:09
and everyone else was going on with their life. At that point I was probably the most distressed. I wasn't burnt out
00:44:14
but I was lonely and really unsure what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.
00:44:18
So that was the that was a more difficult period. A couple of years later was more difficult.
00:44:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. I want to get to that because I've got got that here. Uh 2005
00:44:26
to 2009 being what you describe as the most difficult period of your life. But I've just got a couple more telecom.
00:44:31
>> Sure. Sure. >> Um Oh, and yeah, you were there for a long time. Eh, eight years
00:44:37
>> as CEO, but I was at Telecom for 13 years. Yeah. >> But um 8 years as CEO of a huge company
00:44:42
like that. It's a big time, right? >> It's it's it's Yes, it was long enough.
00:44:47
like I had um it was about the time I always thought that I would leave but I didn't think I would leave in the in the
00:44:52
face of the the tumult and the do you remember the messenger who passed the cabinet paper to his mate who worked at
00:45:00
telecom and then they had the inquiry into that and uh only those listening over the age of 50 are going to remember
00:45:06
this but it was I remember at the time thinking I'm so I mean I was very stressed of course but so pleased that I
00:45:16
lived in a country where public officials were not corrupt, >> you know, that that um I was confident
00:45:23
that the truth would come out, which it did, >> and that and then that was, you know, no
00:45:28
one remembers about it now because in fact, at the end of the day, what it looked like was what it was. But, you
00:45:33
know, another situation in another country where you could have, you know, behaviors that weren't exemplary, you
00:45:42
would really be exposed to the CEO. I heard you on another podcast. It may have been um the Bruce Cotal one,
00:45:48
leaders getting coffee or the Simon Bridges one, generally famous, but um and I'll I'll completely botch up your
00:45:53
quote, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about. >> The the quote you gave was um something
00:45:57
like um everyone in their life at some random point will experience like a stroke of good luck or good fortune
00:46:03
without reason and something terrible that's going to happen to you. That's al
00:46:06
what am what am I trying to say? >> Oh yeah, I agree with that. I think that
00:46:10
all of us at some point have experienced both. I I I actually talked about this in my 50th a long time ago, which is I
00:46:18
do believe over the course of a life, especially a long life, you get to play every part on the stage.
00:46:24
>> You get to play the triumph, you get to play the victim, you get to, you know,
00:46:28
play the decider, you get to play the chosen. But in particular, I believe that we all um will be given an
00:46:35
opportunity to walk through a portal to something that is even more is marvelous. You know, we that we could
00:46:41
never have seen that that would happen. And we also get a situation where either
00:46:47
through our own bad luck or our own bad judgment or some justosition of things, we get treated diff with uh unfairly or
00:46:54
we get treated in a way that's very distressing or someone close to us badly
00:46:58
lets us down or betrays us. And how we are in the first and the second is is is is h is a way in a way how you build
00:47:07
your character. Like what happens when you're at the top of the game and you're
00:47:10
in triumph and what happens when you're under the wheel and under pressure. And
00:47:14
I I sometimes finish that quote by saying if you want to live in New Zealand, you have to try and be your
00:47:20
best self in both those situations because this is not a country where you can escape
00:47:25
>> whatever you've done. You you you live with it. And um if you treat people
00:47:30
differently on the way up than on the way down, >> you find they become your next boss or
00:47:34
they become your brother-in-law or you know it's very difficult to live in New
00:47:37
Zealand unless you take the long view and you act with utmost graciousness. >> Yeah, that when I heard you say that it
00:47:43
was like a aha moment for me. It made perfect sense. What would those two things be for you? Is there anything
00:47:48
that springs to mind? I do think that um well a couple of things on the the the sort of amazing opportunity uh well
00:47:56
first of all becoming CEO of telecom you know that that was an amazing opportunity that was a a portal into a
00:48:02
global world into you know having such resources and being at the you know being at the seat of history like that
00:48:10
was and then um when Celia Robinson had the idea to set up my food bag and um I I joined went to her in that that was
00:48:19
another big portal. Now that came earlier actually when I had written my book and she came to I was living in
00:48:24
Willington at the time. She came to the last in those days a publisher paid for a 90-day book tour show and we were in
00:48:30
the Mccure Hotel Oakland not a place I've been since I think it's a different
00:48:33
hotel now. She came up to me at the end of that and she said would I mentor her and her husband James in the opeling
00:48:38
business I said yes. So that was a portal because then I realized how good they were. what fantastic entrepreneurs
00:48:43
they were and when they sold that business of the next business I went in with them. So that was that was a portal
00:48:50
of something. This young woman in her 20ies wearing, you know, just very normal clothes um speaking very fast and
00:48:57
obviously very enthusiastic, but >> you know to to oh she's now very good
00:49:03
friend. She was just wonderful last year when I was in hospital. She's a wonderful person. She's every bit the
00:49:07
real deal that she say she seems. Anyway, um so that was another portal as well. another moment of saying yes which
00:49:15
led to something amazing. In terms of sort of difficult things, I I definitely think that um my uh my six months of
00:49:23
last year physically were a very difficult period. I wasn't burnt out, but I had uh I couldn't get out of bed.
00:49:31
I was in agony with my back and I couldn't I I had to go to get scanned and I literally screamed standing on the
00:49:41
scanner. I could not I could not straighten my legs, stand on the scanner without screaming in pain.
00:49:47
And then I had back surgery, but because I hadn't been able to walk, I'd been
00:49:54
crawling. I'd crawled outside either to get myself to the scanning or something
00:49:58
and I got a life-threatening leg infection and I had to go to Oakland Hospital for
00:50:04
8 days on introvenous IV. It was over my knee, which is a problem. And uh I was really struggling. I came home on or
00:50:12
antibiotics and then quite soon after that I fell. I had a bad fall and I had all these things happen on top of each
00:50:18
other. So for a long time I was physically you know really um not well and so that was that was a really like
00:50:28
you would say well any one of these three things is bad and they've all happened to me sequentially over 3
00:50:35
months. So, that was a really a very difficult um thing for me to deal with because it
00:50:41
was like I had a lot going on and it's like I don't really do well with sort of
00:50:46
physical pain. I got a low tolerance of physical pain. >> You do you think it's your body's way of
00:50:52
telling you to back off for a minute? >> I decided it was >> I decided I I wasn't burnt out, but I
00:50:58
thought to myself, "Oh my goodness." >> You know, in in my 50s, I didn't really
00:51:03
heat it. I just keep going and in my 60s I can't. So yes, I took it as I took it
00:51:08
as that. I took it as that cuz in my 50s I was um you know working in my food bag
00:51:15
going to Sydney for that then going to Wellington to cheer the SBCA cuz we were on the one SPCA project bringing all the
00:51:20
SBAs together then going back to Oakland and I'd say to my nephew who lived with
00:51:23
me okay cuz he was cooking my food back for me. Right. I'm I'm having I'm home
00:51:27
in Oakland tonight for dinner and then tomorrow I'm flying to Sydney and then
00:51:31
next day I'm flying to Melbourne to Cher Australia and then I'm flying to
00:51:33
Wellington and then I'm back I'll be back at the end of the week and I did
00:51:36
that for months. So that that led to burnout in my 50s >> and then my life isn't that crazy now
00:51:42
but yes I did take last year's problems as a sign that I needed to to um >> yeah
00:51:50
move at my own pace like have less external commitments. I needed to rock up and do something at a certain time.
00:51:57
>> Did you take it as a sign? I mean, you came here from Queenstown. You're
00:52:01
squeezing into Queenstown was fun. Queenstown was fun. Queenstown wasn't work.
00:52:06
>> You just have to like, I suppose, reasset reassess your own personal limits of
00:52:10
>> True, true. >> I worry about you, DMT. You're doing a lot. >> Have you been talking to Chris before
00:52:15
this podcast, Don? >> No, no, I haven't. Hey. Um, oh, so in your final year of telecom, you you were
00:52:21
part of the um part of the team that sold yellow pages for like $2.2 billion. >> Yes. High point.
00:52:27
>> Crazy amount of money back. Crazy amount of money now, but crazy amount of money
00:52:30
back then. >> And you um Yes. So, yeah. What was the thinking behind that?
00:52:34
>> Well, that was um so Maka Bogski was the CFO who led that transaction who then
00:52:41
went on to be the CEO of Infrretell and just did >> incredible job with that company over 10
00:52:46
years. And the executive sponsor of yellow pages was Mark the Beast who came back as chair of telecom has been chair
00:52:53
of many other companies in New Zealand. And Simon Muta was the chief operating officer and um then became CEO of
00:52:59
Oakland airport and then CEO of telecom. By then it was Spark. Well, he changed name to Spark actually.
00:53:05
>> We basically said well look we're all we get this and we're using as a doors stop
00:53:09
like we're all googling for search. This is way back you know this is like 200
00:53:15
200 at six. And so these companies are selling all around the world at crazy valuations. We should be able to sell
00:53:23
ours at a crazy valuation. Um and so we did. We did. Marco led that and um yeah,
00:53:31
it was uh it was it was it was a huge amount of money. In fact, after that, I visited New York. It wasn't for work. It
00:53:37
was personal. And and um some of the people I was with in the finance industry were like, "Yeah, that was the
00:53:43
high point. That was the high point." After that, people started to stop using
00:53:48
yellow pages type things and valuations declined. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Cuz I remember a time for a
00:53:53
couple of years where they do the the drop off deliveries in plastic bags with a knot on the top and they'd sit on
00:53:58
people's letter boxes for weeks. >> Yes. That's right. That's right.
00:54:05
>> You should be an investment banker. The point was to see that coming before
00:54:10
it happened. We were at the T. We saw that coming before that actually happened.
00:54:16
>> Do you when you do a deal of that magnitude like do do you feel bad like
00:54:20
you know you're selling a lemon or is it not a lemon at that point? >> No, because it's just our view versus
00:54:25
another person's view. No one always gets it right. >> But our view was that and it was it was
00:54:31
a the team did a really good job in the process. There were several bidders. The
00:54:34
price was so high because there's more than one person who wanted it. There were three people who wanted it
00:54:39
>> trying to trying to get it. Well, it's just their view of the potential versus
00:54:43
the seller. You never know for sure in business that something's 11 because you
00:54:46
and I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone in a couple of years
00:54:50
time. >> Yeah, that's true. Well, congratulations on that. That's awesome. Well, when when
00:54:56
the deal like that gets signed, like what do you like what do you do? >> I'm sure we did celebrate. I I can't
00:55:02
remember now. Um we're probably relieved cuz after a deal like that, you're
00:55:05
really tired. Like, but I wasn't the one physically working on it, but obviously,
00:55:08
you know, it's coming. the board's approving it, it's coming to me, we're
00:55:11
saying, "Yep, let's let's go to the next stage," etc. So, yeah. No, it was it was
00:55:15
satisfying later, but satisfying later because if we hadn't done it then, >> would have been Yeah. practically
00:55:21
worthless. >> Well, Australia, Telra, hung on for way longer than we did. >> Yeah.
00:55:26
>> Um, a job like that, the telecom CEO, comes with a massive amount of public
00:55:30
scrutiny. When when you're under like intense scrutiny, like, and you're on
00:55:33
the news every night or you're on the paper in the morning, what did you learn
00:55:36
about yourself? Ah, well, I'm a very open, transparent person and my comm's team never really
00:55:46
um gave me messaging for what I should say. They always trying to give me for what I shouldn't say because I, you
00:55:51
know, I'm like late to say something that I'm, you know, saying too early cuz
00:55:56
we're still just thinking about it. But anyway, um, what did I learn? It's hard to go at that pace forever.
00:56:04
you know, CEOs have a natural lifespan because it's very hard to go at that pace. It's relentless and I think it's
00:56:10
got probably even it's probably got even more relentless. I learned that the
00:56:14
Aussie media is really tough. Really, really tough. >> Uh I learned that some journalists you
00:56:21
can trust and some you can't. I learned that you uh my natural tendency is to
00:56:27
say too much like just be shorter, be pathier, be clearer. Uh >> sound bites.
00:56:33
>> Yeah. Um I don't tend to speak as much jargon now as I did then because that
00:56:37
industry is full of jargon be it would be not you know not make sense to you know lay lay people but now if I give an
00:56:45
interview I'm more likely to be talking about might be diversity in business or
00:56:49
it might be woman entrepreneurs I'm I'm not I'm not as um I'm likely to be using
00:56:54
language that more people will will resonate with >> you telecom was a big company I actually
00:56:59
had one of your former employees uh Chris Quinn who's co now in for a Last week he told me when he started there
00:57:06
was like 25,000 staff or something. >> Was it that many? Well um >> uh Chris ran Geni. We bought computer
00:57:14
land and Geni and decided to keep the name GI not to call it telecom and he ran that very successfully for many
00:57:21
years before he left telecommunications and eventually went into you know the food industry. Uh did he tell the his
00:57:28
his story about his wife rang him one night and said will you be home for dinner? He said, "Oh, I don't think so.
00:57:34
I'm in LA." >> No, that's a great yarn. Wow. >> So, that's how hard he worked. Yes.
00:57:42
Really on the go. >> We went to work one morning and then caught a 12 hours.
00:57:48
>> He left that one out. I must have asked the wrong question. You got to ask the
00:57:51
right questions to get the right answers. >> The wrong questions. Yeah. >> But is it weird being in that role? Are
00:57:56
you aware that people are sucking up to you when you're in that role? >> Yes, to some extent. I I but I had some
00:58:03
really good truth tellers. Like I'm >> Yeah, I'm very open. I'm quite open to
00:58:10
feedback and of people I respect and my executive team were pretty much all truth tellers. But Philip King is still
00:58:18
a great mate. He's like very much a sort of a listen TJ, this is how it is and we
00:58:23
should be doing this and that and so I didn't surround myself with acolytes.
00:58:27
it, you know, being um being telling me what I wanted to hear wasn't wasn't how
00:58:34
you got promoted at telecom. >> But how do you know if someone's telling
00:58:37
you what you want to hear versus >> they're often telling me things I don't
00:58:40
want to hear? Such a good answer. And um what what's it like leaving after after nine years?
00:58:49
I I had um Sir Rodri on the podcast uh at the beginning of the year and so he founded Zero and he tal he talked about
00:58:55
the day um in quite a poant way the day that he he left and he packed up his box
00:58:59
of trinkets and all that on the street and >> suddenly he he realized he didn't know
00:59:03
who he was. All all his friends were his were his co-workers and he had to sort of rebuild his identity.
00:59:08
>> Yeah, I felt a bit the same um because there had been so much controversy in
00:59:14
the last couple of years. I thought I might actually leave New Zealand and I went overseas for a year holidayed. I
00:59:18
interviewed various jobs and I came back and I thought, you know what, I love this country. I really identify with
00:59:25
being a Kiwi and where else can I swim in the harbor in the morning and ride my horse in the afternoon. This is
00:59:31
Wellington. And you know, catch a flight to Queenstown, then ski. It's just like,
00:59:35
so I'm going to try and create a life here. I I don't want a full-time job
00:59:40
again. I want a portfolio life. That's the fashionable word for it. on a bit
00:59:44
more flexibility. Uh how can I create that sort of life and live in New Zealand? So yeah, but it was a very
00:59:50
difficult period because everyone else carries on as I mentioned before my best friend was Margaret Ducas and she was a
00:59:55
patent attorney >> and uh she was she cooked for me through that period. She's a very good cook. She
01:00:00
was nothing to do with telecom so she was great support because my telecom mates were busy doing you know carrying
01:00:05
on doing their thing but she got me quite quickly. Two things happened that got me going again. The first was
01:00:12
Margaret said cuz I had given money to the SPCA since my first paycheck. From my first
01:00:18
paycheck, I put in place direct debits to various charities, women's charities
01:00:23
and to SPCA. And she knew that and she was on the board. And she took me up to the SPCA in New Town, the old shelter,
01:00:30
and it was run down and small and cramped. And she said, "We we we've got
01:00:35
to build something better for the animals." and she took me up to the old fever hospital which was you know
01:00:40
derelct and she said this is our vision and so she and I worked tirelessly for many months getting together we gave
01:00:47
some money to it of course qual money and we did a fundraising dinner we got more people involved and I worked
01:00:52
full-time on that for about 6 months and so I got out of feeling any sort of like
01:00:57
sorry for myself and into doing something for somebody else in this case for the animals which um so that was the
01:01:03
first thing that happened I got a new focus I could very I realized quite quickly that the target market was
01:01:09
people like me who had animals and not children for fundraising and really sort of honed on that and we um we we did a
01:01:17
very successful project. It's a longer story than that which I'm going to write
01:01:20
about at some point but um >> so anyway so that project >> and then the second thing that happened
01:01:26
is that Craig Norgate who his early death such a loss to New Zealand just you know the brains behind one of the
01:01:32
brains behind Fonta the the driver behind the creation of Fonta he rang me and said we want to do a Fonta for world
01:01:37
will you come and share the company and I said yes so I did that for a few years
01:01:41
so the combination of and Mark Wilson asked you know will you join the AI board in Melbourne we need to um you to
01:01:48
enhance the quality of that board. So those three things happened quite quickly within about 12 months of me
01:01:55
certainly within a few months of me back in New Zealand within 12 15 months leaving telecom. So I got going again on
01:01:59
the the commercial side and insurance because I'd worked national which before
01:02:04
on the agriculture which I didn't know anything about really agriculture and I'
01:02:08
I made we we didn't succeed in the end but I did make some lifelong friends and
01:02:12
on the philanthropic side. So that that was a really and then I I wrote my book and finished writing my book and Celia
01:02:20
turned up and that got me going on entrepreneurial side. So >> it really was a case of you know one
01:02:24
door had closed and then several doors opened. Uh but it was a very stressful period because apart from all of that so
01:02:32
John and I had separated so you know this 2005 to 2009 that period two by by two by 210 I was sort of better sorted
01:02:39
but in that period so John and I separated had to do a split. So, you know, you got to split your money and
01:02:45
everything and but my apartment that I'd been left with and that was he didn't
01:02:50
want it and I did. It was a leaky building. >> Oh. >> So, my biggest asset was a leaky
01:02:55
building. And I just want to mention about it was Bay Point um the body corporate. We had a c we had to um we
01:03:02
were we couldn't settle. We had to we thought we have to go to court. We had a
01:03:07
celebratory dinner. We booked out this cafe before the court hearing of our um Biki Apartments
01:03:17
and we celebrated that we'd hung together as a body corporate and that you know we basically projected that we
01:03:25
were going to be successful and the next day on the steps of the court in Wellington we settled the other side
01:03:31
said okay we're not going to go into court we're going to settle so again my
01:03:37
slightly polyanorish intend the best outcome. >> Um, you don't you got to have your wits
01:03:45
about you, but it's like miracles can happen that you don't see. And one of
01:03:50
the people that I've been supporting for a long time, a woman called Sister Ze,
01:03:53
who's a Christian woman in Pakistan who teaches girls to read and write. And she
01:03:59
won the Global Vaky Teacher Prize two years ago, a million dollars to fund her work. I wake up one morning, there's a
01:04:04
picture of her with Justinda at the awards in France. And I'm like, what just happened? This is a this is a girl
01:04:10
who couldn't speak English, who had she had very supportive family, but um they've got no money. And you know, just
01:04:18
her own determination and then enrolling a few supporters like me creates something like that. So you just never
01:04:24
forget the power of what one person can achieve if they can collect a group of people around them.
01:04:30
>> After the telecom gig for so many years, were you quite financially secure? I'm
01:04:34
sure it pay pays nothing compared to what CEOs get now. What were you getting in there last year?
01:04:39
>> I actually I actually don't remember but you know you'll be able to Google it.
01:04:42
It'll be in that last in that last it'll be in that last AGM uh annual report. Um
01:04:47
no I wasn't because of the split with John. Uh so we divided everything by half and and of course you know so it's
01:04:56
just me. So at that point I wasn't. So obviously AA board um or partners board
01:05:00
were paid gigs >> so I did need to keep earning at that point. Yeah, because I had the the
01:05:06
apartment in Wellington and the wonderful beach house at Wahhee Beach and a small villa in Queenstown.
01:05:13
>> Yeah. All of which I've still No, I haven't got the apartment in Wellington
01:05:15
now because I left Wellington, but the other two I've still got. >> Jeez. Why he Beach is um is a who's who
01:05:19
of New Zealand, isn't it? You mentioned Helen Clark there before and you were
01:05:23
there and uh Warren Gatland and Sir Wayne Smith. >> Yes. And John Cerwin and JK and um Grant
01:05:30
Fox and it's like a rugby central and it's sort of like Yeah. Well, it's a
01:05:34
wonderful place. It's a wonderful place. It's so relaxing and it's just I just
01:05:39
love the Bay of Plenty. It's a wonderful area. >> And do you live just next door to your
01:05:42
mom? >> Well, I did, but unfortunately mom had a stroke and then she had an accident with
01:05:47
her mobility scooter. She can't. So, by now last year, she couldn't live alone
01:05:51
anymore. So, she now lives at Hington House in Whei. And we, my sisters and I are on a sort of a roster that one of us
01:05:58
is there each day to see to see her. Yeah. M >> how was she? >> Well, I I spent my last week um last I
01:06:08
hadn't seen her for about a week and we but uh the last time I saw her, we took
01:06:14
a video of her motoring from her room with her walker to to dinner or lunch actually. So, yeah, she she had been in
01:06:21
hospital this year, but she's better now. >> Yeah. It seems like you guys are are
01:06:25
very close. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and your dad? Yes. So, John and Marian? Yes.
01:06:31
>> So, you lost your dad during co How we How we doing? >> I'm good. It's It's okay. Yeah, we're
01:06:35
okay. >> We're 3:00. What time are we? Oh, 2:30. >> It's 2:30. You've got time. What time?
01:06:39
>> Yeah, my watch is my watch. I know how to adjust it. It's not telling the right time
01:06:47
>> because I can't adjust it. I got to get someone to adjust it for me.
01:06:50
>> Wait. So, so it's actually 2:27 p.m. now. And your watch says >> 12:15. It's 2 hours and 12 MINUTES
01:06:57
WRONG. OH, SO YOU JUST IMMEDIATELY DO THE MENTAL. >> YEAH. >> What sort is it? Is that a Roly?
01:07:03
>> No, no, no. It's a Versace. Versace. I was walking down I was walking down
01:07:08
Medic one day and I went into Versace to look at their clothes and I love this watch. I didn't think about the fact,
01:07:13
you know, Versace watches are not that common and um bought it. Had it ever since. So,
01:07:18
>> is it is it broken or you just don't know how to reset it? >> No, I don't know HOW TO RESET THIS.
01:07:22
>> THIS MIGHT BE THE WILDEST story I've had on the podcast. That's crazy. Well, it
01:07:26
was an hour wrong. Whatever it was, it was it's 12 minutes wrong is cuz it's
01:07:31
gone a bit slow. But before that, it was just an hour wrong. And I thought I'll
01:07:35
just wait cuz someone will fix that. Instead of making But instead of making it right, it made it 2 hours wrong.
01:07:43
I haven't done anything about it. I hardly wear it. >> Can't you can't you just go to a Mr.
01:07:48
Minute in the mall or something? PROBABLY. >> Is this is this is this what you're like
01:07:55
as a person in other areas of your life? If there's little things at the house
01:07:57
that sort of break or you just crack on with it, >> I outsource all of that sort of stuff.
01:08:04
>> Oh, yeah. I'm quite eccentric, >> but I but you know, I kept this watch
01:08:13
because I did have a more expensive watch, not a Rolex. And when I was in Argentina, I was mugged.
01:08:18
>> Oh wow. >> And they they came behind me, pushed me over, took the watch. I was with my
01:08:24
sister and um this this person on the store who could speak English saw it and he said, "I'll call the cops." The cops
01:08:30
came. They couldn't speak Spanish. They couldn't speak English. They asked us to
01:08:32
get in the car. The car had no back seat. I look at my sister and I go, "What the hell? Have we done the right
01:08:38
thing here? Are these cops or have we now are we now in a lot of trouble?" So
01:08:43
I'm like, "This is a nice watch, but this is not a seriously expensive watch." And I'm like, "I would never
01:08:49
have a Rolex." >> Yeah. And Muggers would probably give it back. Oh, >> it's a faulty watch.
01:08:54
>> They wouldn't be able to resell it because it's not really a watch brand.
01:08:57
It's really a fashion brand. That that one day in the shop had some watches.
01:09:01
>> Is that Is that traumatic for you that picking? Yeah, that was really traumatic
01:09:04
cuz id loved I'd loved um I'd been on a cruise in Antarctica with my sister
01:09:09
which was amazing and I loved Brunis Aries. We've been there a couple of days
01:09:12
and it was fantastic and this was this was very upset. It was my fault though. I shouldn't have left the hotel with any
01:09:17
sort of watch on. Just >> you know basic beginner era. So it's a it's a beautiful place but don't wear a
01:09:23
nice watch cuz I'm fair. I obviously not part of that world. I obviously don't
01:09:27
speak Spanish. >> Um what did you like about BA? Are you are you are you a steak eater? Um well I
01:09:33
like a nice steak but um I've been in Argentina twice. The first time I went
01:09:36
there I got totally constipated cuz it was meat for breakfast. We were riding polo ponies cross country and it was
01:09:41
like meat for breakfast, meat for lunch, meat for dinner. So like oh no please I
01:09:45
can't have meat for breakfast. I like a good steak once a week but not as a way
01:09:49
of life. Now have you not been to their fantastic cemetery the cemetery? >> I have where um whereita is Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:57
She is. and just the energy of the place. I really I really liked it until I got mugged.
01:10:02
>> I loved it. And but you you're not really much of a drinker. Did you get
01:10:05
into the Malbecks or >> No, no, no, I don't drink. No, not at all. >> I don't like it. No.
01:10:09
>> And it's good. I can always just drive. I don't have to worry about
01:10:12
>> Yeah, that's true. >> about um getting myself around. >> That's true. So, um I've got a nice
01:10:17
photo here. This is you with your mom and your dad. >> Yes. That's taken the mom and dad's
01:10:20
house at Wahhe Beach. After dad nearly died, they were living in a Hopi. Mom and I decided that they had to be closer
01:10:27
to all of us. And so I had a cottage there that I've been renting out in front of my house that I had for 30
01:10:31
years. So I knocked down the cottage and mom and dad sold their house in Aopi and
01:10:35
we together built this house for them. And this photo was taken there. And so dad had a very last happy eight years of
01:10:41
his life there and you know mom's you know been very happy there and and really until last year but this house my
01:10:48
sister uses this house now. So it still looks like that. >> Yeah. Cuz you lost your dad um during co
01:10:53
>> Yeah. He got diagnosed with bowel cancer literally in that 48 hour when you had
01:10:58
to just you had to the first lockdown like >> so choose your choose your bubble choose
01:11:02
>> choose your bubble choose your area. He got diagnosed with bowel cancer and he
01:11:05
died about 4 months later. >> By the time we had his funeral it was after after lockdown had finished. So we
01:11:12
had a funeral at home for him. It was lovely. >> Yeah. So so you you were there with him
01:11:17
in the final >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was actually not there the minute he died. He deliberately
01:11:22
chose to die when there was no one else in the room. My mom had gone to get the priest and he died. And the next person
01:11:28
to turn up was my younger sister and she organized the funeral. So I actually wasn't there but I had been there the
01:11:33
day before or the day or the day before that. >> How coherent was he towards the end?
01:11:38
>> Oh, very. >> Yeah. >> And until two weeks before his death, he
01:11:40
was still better at me than doing all the puzzles. Still very articulate, but he just decided enough was enough and
01:11:46
stopped eating and drinking and sort of died peacefully. Can you remember the last sort of
01:11:51
significant conversations you had? >> Um, I can remember I know you got some tissues there. I can
01:12:00
remember he had to go back and forth to hospital a lot which is one of the reasons after
01:12:05
he died um the foundation, the Getty Foundation that I established with my sister, we
01:12:10
bought an ambulance for that part of the country for other people to use. And in
01:12:13
fact, I've ridden in the Getty ambulance to hospital since then and have all my
01:12:18
neighbors. But um dad used to go backwards and forwards to the hospital. And I remember the last time that he did
01:12:23
that, he came back and Andrew and I were there and he was holding each of our hands and he started asking us talking
01:12:29
about property. His property was his love and he was like talking about what I might do at the beach or what you just
01:12:36
I just remember that he was like he was really unwell and he was like wanted to talk about property.
01:12:41
>> Yeah. >> He must have must be so proud of you. >> Oh yeah. I I I He was proud of all his
01:12:47
family. Yeah. >> Um, but my mother, people would say, "Well, what does Teresa do?" And she'd
01:12:52
say, "Well, I don't know, but she's very busy and she's in lots of meetings." So,
01:12:56
it's quite hard to explain. Everyone knows what a doctor does or a lawyer, but it's quite hard to explain what a
01:13:02
business executive does. >> Yeah. >> I had um Miles Harold from Fonta on the
01:13:06
podcast recently and he he had the most adorable story. His mom lives near the airport in Christ Church. So, whenever
01:13:11
he's down there, he goes to visit her and often stays. He said last time he stayed he he she knows what what he does
01:13:18
but she doesn't really know like what he does. Yeah. >> Um and uh he went to put his shoes on in
01:13:23
the morning to leave after staying the night cuz he had an early flight and she'd slipped a $20 note as long as well
01:13:28
as a little note in his shoes. >> Isn't that adorable? >> Oh, that is adorable.
01:13:36
>> Yeah. Oh, that's such a special relationship. How's your mom been since
01:13:39
then? >> Up and down. >> Stay together 60 years. >> Oh, yeah. 60 60 years. 60 years. She Oh,
01:13:44
she's been up and down, but you know, she carried on and she's welcomed you
01:13:49
lots of great grandchildren as my sister's children have started having their own children and yeah, so but the
01:13:56
last year has been difficult with her um stroke mobility, not being able to drive
01:14:00
anymore, things like that. Aging is aging is not easy. >> It's rough, isn't it?
01:14:06
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. How do you feel about aging? >> What are you now? 60.
01:14:11
>> I'm 63. Oh, getting that pension soon. >> Well, don't get me started on that.
01:14:16
Honestly, that's obscene that I should be getting the pension. It should be means tested. It's like it is ridiculous
01:14:23
that people with means getting that pension if we don't sort out national I mean I'm not at all political. I don't
01:14:30
want to run for office. I'm not interested. But I do think as a country if we the people said we have to sort
01:14:37
out national superanuation cuz if we don't that that cost of that for the current
01:14:42
scheme means that we are our children and grandchildren's futures are being compromised cuz the country can't afford
01:14:47
it. So we need a conversation about it cuz we need to give people enough notice of how it's going to change and whether
01:14:54
it's means tested or rage a eligibility we actually do need to come together and
01:14:59
have a conversation about it. You're not going to stop working at any stage, though, are you? I feel like
01:15:05
you're always going to have things on the go, >> I think. So, yeah. >> Yeah.
01:15:09
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And why why would Yeah. I don't know. Why would you stop?
01:15:14
>> Well, I just intend to spend more time at the beach and less time in Oakuckland.
01:15:17
>> Yeah. >> So, my food bag when that opportunity came along, like how do you know what's
01:15:21
a good opportunity and what's not? >> Well, I had the utmost respect for James
01:15:25
and Cecilia as entrepreneurs and I knew she was very missiondriven. wanted to do
01:15:29
something for, you know, working moms, which is what she was. And Nadia, of course, had, you know, been fantastic on
01:15:34
Master Chef, clearly resilient and very talented. But basically, this was after John had left and he'd been the cook.
01:15:40
And so, I had been, you know, like I said, I don't cook. So, I had been buying food and what you could get then
01:15:46
in a prepackaged food to put in the oven to heat up for dinner was awful. It's a
01:15:50
bit better now. >> And so, when Cecilia showed me the business plan, I was like, "This is a
01:15:55
great idea. This is really going to go." And so I was part of the early trial. My
01:15:59
friends part of the trial. Uh it was it just it went just it everyone loved it and you know it was a joyful thing.
01:16:08
People who grow food are happy people. You know you it's a happy industry to be
01:16:11
part of and we got such good feedback. >> You know from mothers saying well Nadia
01:16:16
does says it so my children will eat vegetables. It's not me it's her. Um
01:16:21
people saying you saved my marriage because we can put healthy food on the table and still have time as a family.
01:16:25
just just there was so much joy in that business. >> Yeah. >> So So that got sold um and you became
01:16:32
wildly rich from that. >> Is that a fair thing to say? It gave you FU money. Have you heard the term FU
01:16:38
money? >> Yeah, I have. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you like that term or no? >> But it just sort of means you've got you
01:16:44
you know you've got options and choices and you can do exactly what you want and
01:16:47
say no to exactly what you want. I I I quite like it. It's an aspiration for
01:16:50
me. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. Is that a good feeling? >> It was a good feeling. I immediately
01:16:58
um gave some of the money away to charity, set up the foundation, >> bought the ambulance, bought a vehicle
01:17:05
for the SPCA for the far north. >> Um uh renovated property for my sisters or
01:17:14
made sure that my family were all well situated >> and then said, "Okay, so you know what
01:17:20
else am I going to do?" and setting up the it was lockdown actually I had the
01:17:24
idea to fund the chair of entre entrepreneurship at um Oakland University and but I always wanted to keep going
01:17:32
like that wasn't you know that was never I was never going to really just sort of
01:17:35
stop at that point so when second job said well we want to do 10 would you want to come in with us and I said yes
01:17:41
because changing the health care system for New Zealand is equally as worthy as you know people eating healthy food so
01:17:48
>> yeah I have carried on that journey with them but I don't work in that business.
01:17:52
I did work in my food bag some of the time, but with tend I did learn the lesson that in my 60s I just I can't do
01:17:59
everything and so I'm not um deeply involved in the business. >> What about failures? Are there any
01:18:05
failures that you've been involved with? >> Yeah, I've um I've invested in companies
01:18:09
that haven't worked and um I I think it's best if I don't name names, but I
01:18:14
visited a company and the female founder turned out to be fraudulent. Now that's
01:18:19
there is if you there is a little bit of stuff in the media about that but I just
01:18:22
don't we're going to talk about it but anyway so yes I I'm not I'm definitely
01:18:27
anyone who tells you that they every investment they've ever done has turned
01:18:30
out right is lying because that's just not how it happens. >> Yeah. >> Um I mean partners was a failure. Wool
01:18:37
partners was a failure. We couldn't get a font for wool up but I don't think
01:18:40
about it as a failure because >> we did our best. It wasn't the right time. And no one is more delighted than
01:18:46
me that wool prices are now rocketing away. That that what we saw that New Zealand strong wool could get some of
01:18:53
the premium prices that Marino was getting. It could be used I mean in my new house at the beach. I've got wool
01:18:59
batting like I I've got wool rugs. It's like so some of the things that I did
01:19:04
became passions and it it might have been too early but it was a failure at the time. So yeah, I've had plenty of
01:19:11
failures but I >> I don't I reframe it. I don't really like Kiwis can be hard on people who
01:19:17
failed in the US. It's just that that's just a learning experience, a growing
01:19:21
edge before you're successful. >> Yeah. There's that saying, failure is a
01:19:25
stepping stone to success. Um, still never feels nice when it happens though. >> No, it doesn't feel nice when it
01:19:30
happens, but if you've done your best and you had good intention, it's just
01:19:35
you not every post is a winning post. It's just how life is. >> October 2022, you became a dame.
01:19:42
>> Yes. How how cool is that? >> Oh, that was wonderful. That really was
01:19:46
special. My father had passed by then, but my mom and my sisters went to a wonderful ceremony at government house
01:19:52
in Oakland. It was truly a lovely ceremony. And they had the table set up like this, like round with afternoon
01:19:58
tea, the cupcakes, and cuz my mom is English, we we all like that. And Cindy, the governor general, she's great. She
01:20:05
speaks with each person and oh, it was just wonderful. Wonderful. >> How long do you know know about it
01:20:11
before and who do you tell? um about 3 months. No one until >> No one no one or
01:20:15
>> Well well in the end you have to to tell a few people because you get asked how
01:20:18
many people are you bringing so you have to organize for your closest to come you
01:20:23
could only have a few people there but apart from that no one >> but I know that Dame Joan didn't tell
01:20:27
her husband so she really told not her husband >> I did tell I did tell Chris but then
01:20:32
Chris was always going to be coming and Chris has been the secret keeper of me for 30 years but yeah but basically no
01:20:37
one else. Yeah, that's so special. It's such a nice thing for your mom and your
01:20:41
siblings to was lovely. >> What does it mean to you personally? >> It feels
01:20:48
it does feel lovely and it feels sometimes with you like I'm you know good mates with some of the other dames.
01:20:54
It feels very nice that New Zealand has recognized women of my generation who've
01:21:00
achieved you know um Paula Rebtock Sylvia Kartwright uh Theres Walsh Joan Withers it and some of the sporting
01:21:10
heroes Farah Palmer it it Susan Devoy it actually does feel nice that um we have
01:21:16
been recognized so yeah it's very special >> when you travel to places where you need
01:21:21
to fill in the form do you >> No that's a problem and I never use it because I' i've had occasions where I've
01:21:27
been on the phone to a call center and I have been not been able to access a bank
01:21:31
account or something because my name apparently is not Theresa Gatting. Apparently it's Damy Gatting and I'm
01:21:37
like, "Oh no. Oh no, it's not. That's not my name." So now I've said to Chris,
01:21:42
"Just put it back to Ms. Theresa Gatting because it's just too difficult." Yeah.
01:21:47
Uh Dame Joan told a story that um when I had her on the podcast that she's she's
01:21:51
she's used it to get um to get bummed up the line for something. >> Oh no.
01:21:55
>> I I haven't actually. >> You got to lean into it. >> Well, I I don't say to people, oh, cuz I
01:22:03
like to be introduced as it first off and then not use. I don't say never call
01:22:07
me Dame. Like I think it's you know that whole well men always get called sir,
01:22:10
but women not allowed to be proud in their dameship. So, you know, I think it's lovely that you, you know, talking
01:22:16
about Dame as Dame Jon, etc., but with all the people I've known all my life,
01:22:20
it's like it it's you're not going to be, you know, you don't expect to be
01:22:23
treated any differently or called any differently. But, um, no, I have not I have not used in that way. I I honestly
01:22:29
I honestly don't I don't know if Chris has ever used it that way on my behalf,
01:22:32
but I have not used it that way. Not yet. But, I would I would if I needed to. >> If push comes to shove
01:22:39
>> push comes to sh 100%. Um yes, so there's been um some health struggles
01:22:45
over the years which we sort of touched upon. What about um mental health from the neck up? How's your mental health
01:22:49
been? >> No, never >> never had an issue with it. >> No, I mean the only time I was depressed
01:22:55
was after my gay boyfriend um split up with me. So I would have been what was I then 19? I I remember being heartbroken
01:23:02
then >> and driving my car across Fairfield Bridge in Hamilton going maybe I should
01:23:07
just drive off the side. But that was fleeting and you know past and no I've
01:23:12
never I I very much believe that you know you wake up tomorrow and anything's
01:23:19
possible again. And so I've had difficult periods that that period 20 205 to 209 was a very difficult period.
01:23:26
Um the year of my burnout my in my mid-50s which we touched on that was very difficult because nobody could find
01:23:32
out what was wrong with me >> and so that was a difficult year. So, I've had difficult periods, but I've
01:23:36
never had any period when I thought that I needed mental health support. >> Yeah, it's very lucky, isn't it? But,
01:23:44
but I mean, there are things you can do to protect your own mental health, which
01:23:47
you you you seem to do anyway, like you, you know, you get some movement every morning. Um, you're not drinking any
01:23:52
alcohol, your decaf coffee. >> That's right. Gosh, you know a lot about
01:23:56
me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's right. Um, well, sleep's really important. When I first started
01:24:01
going to spars, it was all boot camp. We wake up at 5:00 and you do a 20k hike before breakfast on a cracker. But now
01:24:06
it's about you know just take your time get up when you want to and you know you
01:24:12
know so so regular sleep good sleep although they call it sleep hygiene I guess I've always known the importance
01:24:18
of that but you know I think the best thing I did for my mental health was not have children I just wouldn't have coped
01:24:23
and I knew that. Yeah, there's not um um so I I had some uh fertility troubles with my wife and
01:24:31
we had years and years of IVF and couldn't have kids and and in the end the relationship didn't work and uh so
01:24:37
for me I I wanted kids and then you you have this sort of vision of how you want
01:24:40
the second half of your life to look and suddenly you have to reframe that. >> So the choice was sort of taken away
01:24:44
from me but um you you've got no regrets at all at this stage of your life. You're quite content.
01:24:50
>> I am content. I don't have any regrets. I I really believe you regret what you
01:24:55
what you didn't do, not what you did do. Cuz even if it doesn't go well, even if
01:24:59
it's a failure, >> you still learn. And yeah. No, I don't have regrets.
01:25:06
>> God, you got such a good attitude. What are your best and worst habits?
01:25:11
>> What are my best and worst habits? >> I'm a very generous, kind person. And if
01:25:18
you peeled back the business success and the dame and all of that, my that's how
01:25:22
my friends would describe me. Kind and generous. >> I'm quite eventempered. I I'm not at all
01:25:27
moody. I'm only grumpy if I can't swim and I organize my life so I always can
01:25:30
swim. >> Um my worst habits well I'm pretty untidy, pretty messy and I don't clean up after myself. Like if I
01:25:43
go I go home now and I'll have dirty dishes all over the bench and in the sink and I'll be saying to myself,
01:25:48
doesn't matter. My cleaner comes tomorrow, you know? It's like so I'm not
01:25:51
I'm not particularly house proud. I like I don't I got a dog that doesn't shed,
01:25:56
but I I wouldn't care if I had a dog that shedded. Like I it's sort of I'm
01:25:59
not I'm not disciplined about everything being in the right in the in the you
01:26:05
know in its place. I'm not a perfectionist. So uh that and but I'm I'm quite, you know, I like things were
01:26:13
done well. So I I'm I'm pretty intolerant of incompetence of I can be very impatient,
01:26:20
>> I like things to be done well around me, but I myself am can be quite lazy. So
01:26:25
even though I seem energetic, I am energetic, but I can be quite lazy >> and you get a lot done. So okay, so when
01:26:30
you when there's a a pile of fresh laundry, do you have like a laundry mountain or are you quite good at
01:26:34
putting it away or >> Oh, no. Laundry is the the only household task I quite like. Yeah. No, I
01:26:39
am quite No, no, no. I I like to put the clothes away cuz otherwise I'll be frustrated when I go look for the thing
01:26:43
and I don't have it. So, no, I'm I'm quite good on laundry. I'm just not good
01:26:46
on dishes. >> I appreciate that in that these insights because um the well the damees that I
01:26:52
thought I knew is like immaculate and well presented. You never know what's going on behind the scenes, do you?
01:26:58
>> The watch thing has been very interesting. >> Yeah. Well, that's right. Before I did this, I
01:27:06
was doing Pilates and I rushed home and I got changed and kept myself here and I
01:27:10
didn't look immaculate. You know, half an hour before you saw me come in. >> Is Is there a what if that keeps you up
01:27:17
at night? >> No, not really. Um, I'm still very grateful that I've got good health and
01:27:23
good energy and choices about what I do now in my 60s. And, you know, my best friend died at 66. I'm, you know, and it
01:27:30
was like a shock. So I'm, you know, I'm I hope that I'm live well into my 80s,
01:27:38
if not 90s, and I'm doing my best to be healthy and that you I do a lot of Pilates now. I stopped horse riding. I
01:27:44
stopped anything I can get, no broken bones. I do Pilates because it's flexibility is going to be really
01:27:49
important. >> And um I was 61 before I had a house, two houses, one at the beach, one in
01:27:55
Oakland, both with swimming pools. So I I like I you know that's life-changing
01:27:59
to just you know swim every morning and Yeah. No, I'm and walking on the beach
01:28:04
is like New Zealand is very close to nature. You don't have to go very far to
01:28:08
be in nature and that's that's what keeps us all sane and >> this is a lovely place to live. We
01:28:13
actually all quite we all quite like each other. We or at least we don't dislike each other.
01:28:19
>> You you got a little little emotional before reflecting on your dad. Um
01:28:24
>> are you much of a crier these days? See you quite emotional. >> No.
01:28:27
>> No. >> No. >> When would be the last time you cried before that?
01:28:32
>> Oh, probably at his funeral. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. May maybe I have been sad about my
01:28:37
mom. It's poss maybe in terms of my mom's decline, but um certainly at you
01:28:41
know dad's funeral was the last time I think. Yeah, that was >> Yeah. >> Well, I take that as a huge compliment
01:28:46
that you felt comfortable enough opening up here today. It means a lot. >> What are you most afraid of? M
01:28:56
probably being alive but being incapacitated, you know, either being blind or paralyzed or, you know, just
01:29:04
not being able to have to to to to have freedom to the things I taken for granted, freedom of movement.
01:29:11
>> That that's probably it. Being alive and on the earth, but um either in great
01:29:15
physical pain or in some way permanently incapacitated. In fact, I even hate talking about it because I don't want to
01:29:20
bring that energy into into this room, into me. I want to, you know, hop in my car and drive safely home and
01:29:26
>> fly safely to Wellington today in the plane and >> um yeah, but that would be physical. I'm
01:29:34
not good on physical like I'm not actually I'm an okay driver, but I think
01:29:39
my sisters are all better than me and I'm not I haven't got very good spatial
01:29:42
awareness and and >> you do what you do or what you don't. >> No, I don't I don't have very good
01:29:46
spatial. You said >> I COMPLIMENTED ON YOUR PARKING on >> I know but it's like maybe that was
01:29:51
luck. I don't think I've got good spatial awareness. And so I'm always
01:29:53
like and I've had and I've had more than one fall in my life too. And so it's
01:29:57
like I I'm and and you know thrown thrown from my horse several times. And it's just like I'm quite I don't feel
01:30:06
really really confident in my own body physically >> like so I'm so something happening to me
01:30:12
physically would be really difficult for me because of the life that I want to live and so that's made me more cautious
01:30:21
and probably would be you know one of the things that I would fear most. >> Are you superstitious at all?
01:30:26
>> No. >> No. Just something you said before about you like you didn't want to jinx it.
01:30:30
Almost look like you're about to like touch me. >> I'm not No, no, not but No, I'm not
01:30:34
superstitious, but I I believe that what we talk about becomes our reality. What
01:30:37
we think about >> it doesn't always work like that, but it helps. >> It helps.
01:30:42
>> Like manifestation. >> Yeah, like manifestation. >> What's funny, you sort of talked about
01:30:45
that in the beginning of the podcast where you had cutouts of like female role models.
01:30:49
>> Yes. Well, I don't do that like as much now as I did then, but >> like a long time ago, I manifested the
01:30:56
car I wanted. I took a picture of a car I wanted. This is when I lived in Wellington. And I rang the dealer and I
01:31:01
said, "Look, I want this Audi." And he said, "We don't have that in New
01:31:04
Zealand." And then about a year later, he rang me. He said, "Oh, there's one
01:31:08
car that's that's coming from Australia." That's I said, "Yes, I'll
01:31:12
have that car." And it was like, "Wow." So, you know, that's a very
01:31:16
materialistic thing. The car I wanted turned up. But I have used that to create realities of other things as
01:31:22
well. And so, I do believe in just call it, you know, what Dell Kaggi call it, the power of positive thinking. M.
01:31:27
>> So you call it what you like, but it's not superstition. I don't touch wood. I
01:31:30
don't have, you know, I don't worry about Friday 13th. >> Yeah. It's not not woo woo. Um, what
01:31:37
what are you sort of like manifesting now? What is there left to tick off? >> Well, actually just um what is there
01:31:43
what what is there left to tick off? getting a getting I am in transition like getting a really good balance
01:31:50
between all the things you need to do to have healthy aging and what I'm trying
01:31:55
to um make happen in the world and have fun like managing that keeping all of that in balance
01:32:01
>> just getting yeah getting the balance right between them >> yeah where where do you want to go to
01:32:06
you seem to love your travel >> this year I am going to go um to Japan because Global Woman has a trip to we
01:32:12
started doing overseas trips again to Japan and my sister Angela speaks fluent Japanese And I'm looking forward to that
01:32:17
cuz I' not been there for like I don't know maybe 15 20 years and every year I
01:32:22
go to my favorite health retreat in the world which is uh Kima Kosoi Thailand. I'm going there for a couple of weeks
01:32:28
and that's just it's very it's very it's got great bloody studio, great swimming
01:32:33
pools, but it's also very spiritual. It's built around a monk's cave and I go
01:32:36
and I have coaching with the monk. There's many monks who do it, but there's one monk I like to go to and I
01:32:41
just have a reset. It's um just a reset time. So, I'm going to do that, but
01:32:46
apart from that, I'm going to go to Australia, catch up with some friends, and that's it. Not too not that much
01:32:50
travel this year. >> Life seems good. Oh, what's your relationship with religion like now? You
01:32:55
were born in a religious house, aren't I? Were you Catholic, Christian? >> I was Catholic, and I I became I retired
01:33:01
as a Catholic when I left home at 17. I think religion's got a lot to answer
01:33:05
for, >> you know, the Catholic Church, you know, really >> just So, no. Um, I like the fact that
01:33:12
New Zealand takes some of the tenants of Christianity, like you know, treat others you like to be treated, but but
01:33:18
it's not big on religiosity. Doesn't it doesn't matter whether you're Anglican,
01:33:22
Catholic, or agnostic. >> Yeah, I'm I'm much the same. Like the Ten Commandments, it's quite it's quite
01:33:28
good messaging. Like the Bible is generally just don't be an [ __ ] >> But um yeah, I was born and raised um
01:33:34
Catholic and had to go to church every Sunday and you know, uncomfortable clothes. And then as I got older, I
01:33:39
realized um you can be an [ __ ] and be religious and you can be a good person and not be religious.
01:33:44
>> That's exactly my view. That's exactly my view. Yeah. >> So what do you think happens when you
01:33:48
when you die? Just nothing. >> Oh, no. I do actually think that that um that the the soul goes forward. So
01:33:56
um also I think I'll see my father again. >> God, that would be nice, wouldn't it? M
01:34:02
>> so I do think that I would be um in my peer group of of so business colleagues
01:34:07
most think nothing happens >> and some don't know >> so >> well none none of us know
01:34:13
>> well none of us know but some say I don't know I'm not prepared to say it is
01:34:17
it isn't >> I'm not prepared to say because you know physics things can discorporate and
01:34:22
reinccorporate it's like yeah could happen so >> I but I believe and I don't know if
01:34:27
that's from the Catholic upbringing or just because that's what I want to
01:34:30
believe but I believe that the soul carries on but when your physical body is gone your spirit isn't whoever you've
01:34:37
touched around you in your life and what you've done and the you know the soul
01:34:40
goes off >> that's what I believe >> yeah it is it's the impact you have on
01:34:44
the people around you isn't it that's it and if if if this was your last day and
01:34:48
um there were your best friends your family your sisters your nieces and nephews around you what three words
01:34:54
would you like them to use to describe you >> oh um well I I always thought I wanted on my
01:35:02
um grave headstone, you know. By the way, I've already bought my cemetery plot at Wahhee Beach. Like that's where
01:35:08
I'm going to that's where I'm going to that's where I'm going to go. But um
01:35:11
>> you're a planner. >> Yeah, I'm definitely a planner. I'M A
01:35:13
PLANNER. AND I said to Hartley the other day, you better buy yours cuz they're
01:35:17
going fast. Anyway, um well, I always thought I wanted on my u whatever she led a
01:35:26
self-determined life, but I don't know if I want that now. So, I have to have a
01:35:29
think about this. It's like >> she lived what? She lived a self-determined life.
01:35:33
>> Yes. I always thought that's what I wanted, but now I think that I don't
01:35:36
want that. So, I'll have to have a think about what I want now cuz I haven't
01:35:38
thought about it for a while. Something about, >> you know, she left the world better than
01:35:42
she found it. Something, you know, or she Yeah. I mean, you live on and all the people that you've touched and that
01:35:49
happens to me a lot. the thousands of people through my B and Zed days and telecom days and since then and yeah,
01:35:56
you know, I get constant feedback about that and that is just lovely. That's one
01:36:00
of the benefits of living in New Zealand forever, decades and decades. >> Yeah.
01:36:04
>> Are you proud of yourself? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I've managed quite
01:36:07
well with what life's thrown at me and what I was born with. And I don't think
01:36:11
that I have a huge range of talents. I think I've made the best of the ones that I was given. M
01:36:19
>> Dame Theresa Gating. I reckon this is a good place to leave it. >> Yes, cuz my watch list is4 TO 1.
01:36:26
>> WELL, it's 2:57 now and you wanted to be out here by 3:00 p.m. If we were going
01:36:30
on your time, this could have been a much different chat. Much longer. Um, that's been the I mean, there's been so
01:36:35
many highlights in this chat. You're a great New Zealander, but that's uh
01:36:37
that's right up there. That's next level. Unbelievable. How do you how do
01:36:42
you make it to everything on time? Well, usually I don't have the watch on. I'm just looking at my phone.
01:36:50
>> Yeah, this has been great and I I I know you don't do many of these things. Um,
01:36:53
so I really appreciate you being here and being so candid and so open and um yeah, I wish you well.
01:36:59
>> It's been great fun. Thank you very much.