00:00:00
Maybe I should just drive off the side.
00:00:01
I burnt out twice.
00:00:02
>> Dame Theresa Getting. Welcome to my
00:00:04
podcast.
00:00:05
>> I was a goody two shoes at school. I
00:00:07
don't need emotional support. I don't
00:00:09
need funding. I don't need anything.
00:00:11
Actually, there's one thing I do need. I
00:00:12
can't cook.
00:00:13
>> You go from being basically just a
00:00:14
regular civilian to being a household
00:00:16
name overnight.
00:00:17
>> I'd walk down the street lamp key and
00:00:18
see the poster of the front page. I was
00:00:20
asked in my press conference, are you
00:00:22
going to have children?
00:00:22
>> You got hit by a car while crossing
00:00:24
oriental.
00:00:24
>> I was mugged.
00:00:25
>> You lost your dad during CO.
00:00:26
>> He deliberately chose to die when there
00:00:28
was no one else in the room. And my best
00:00:29
friend died at 66.
00:00:31
>> Are you proud of yourself?
00:00:31
>> I've already bought my cemetery plot.
00:00:33
I've made the best of the one I was
00:00:34
given.
00:00:37
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:40
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:41
there's a top performance in New
00:00:42
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:44
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:46
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:49
Holland one in to
00:00:52
it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:00:54
performance going?
00:00:55
>> Top tier.
00:00:55
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here
00:00:58
you'll find our top performers helping
00:00:59
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:01
investments. Get an F in maximize.
00:01:04
Generate.
00:01:05
>> Putting performance first.
00:01:07
>> Theresa Gatting. Welcome to my podcast.
00:01:09
>> Thank you.
00:01:10
>> This booking has been in the diary for
00:01:12
maybe 6 months.
00:01:13
>> Yeah, I think it has.
00:01:14
>> And that booking was done by your your
00:01:16
assistant Chris who I've been going
00:01:18
backwards and forwards with. And I think
00:01:20
I I don't know but on the surface I
00:01:21
think this relationship with um what
00:01:24
what is she? EA PA. She calls herself um
00:01:28
CEO to Theresa Gatting. So um she's
00:01:31
everything really. So h she's my
00:01:34
assistant, but she's more than that.
00:01:36
She's my right-hand person. She's my
00:01:38
conscience. She's my just my best
00:01:41
friend. Just you know, wonderful. So we
00:01:43
met um the story about how we met is
00:01:46
that when I got the job, gosh, I don't
00:01:49
know how many years ago now. Is it 25
00:01:51
years ago as the head of oh longer than
00:01:53
that actually? head of marketing at
00:01:54
telecom.
00:01:56
>> Someone said to me, "Oh, um, cuz the
00:01:58
previous head of marketing had retired
00:02:00
to go back to the US, Tom Patriqueus,
00:02:02
and uh, someone said to me, oh, he's had
00:02:04
wonderful PA, Chris Woodwiss, but she
00:02:07
doesn't want to work for a woman, so
00:02:08
she's going to, you know, leave before
00:02:10
you turn up." So, I thought, "Oh, I got
00:02:12
to take her to lunch, ask her to give me
00:02:14
a chance." And, uh, so I took her to
00:02:17
lunch and realized immediately that
00:02:19
we've actually got very similar
00:02:20
coloring. And um we got on I don't know
00:02:23
just like two redheads we got on really
00:02:25
well and I said oh Chris please give me
00:02:28
a chance don't leave before I turn up.
00:02:30
So she said sure. So on the first day I
00:02:34
going to my you know those days you have
00:02:35
a big office and sat at the desk and
00:02:37
she'd written up everything for the day
00:02:39
etc. And of course in the first day I
00:02:41
wanted to meet the existing marketing
00:02:42
team. So I met them all and at the end
00:02:46
of that day I I asked her her views
00:02:48
about some of the things they'd said and
00:02:50
some of the things
00:02:51
and she didn't say anything. And then
00:02:53
the next morning I came in and she gave
00:02:55
me a written summary of all the
00:02:58
questions I'd asked and what she thought
00:02:59
and all this [ __ ] And I said, "Wow,
00:03:02
this is great. This woman's got really
00:03:04
good insights. Probably got quite good
00:03:06
judgment."
00:03:07
>> And she said to me, "You're the first
00:03:09
boss I've ever had who's ever who ever
00:03:11
asked my opinion about anything." So
00:03:13
she'd worked for men forever who cuz in
00:03:15
those days she was probably still doing
00:03:17
shorthand but she was certainly typing
00:03:18
and organizing meetings and everything
00:03:20
and
00:03:20
>> this is pre that was way pre- internet
00:03:24
that was the role of the EA when I
00:03:25
joined telecom in that role I was given
00:03:27
a pager and a mobile phone was huge it's
00:03:30
way pre- internet I mean it's years pre-
00:03:32
internet
00:03:34
>> but yeah this is remarkable though and I
00:03:35
think it speaks a lot about you as a
00:03:37
person perhaps that you've um been in a
00:03:39
relationship with this person for over
00:03:40
30 years now. Yeah. Well, many many
00:03:42
people were married twice or three times
00:03:44
in that time frame. So, we worked
00:03:45
together really well. She was a
00:03:47
fantastic um assistant to me when I
00:03:49
became CEO and then when I left telecom.
00:03:52
So, so they suffered a bit in the crash
00:03:54
earthquakes and so she left Wellington
00:03:56
to go and live in Christ Church. I took
00:03:57
a year off. She needed to keep working
00:03:59
and then after the earthquakes they
00:04:01
moved to Nelson where she's been ever
00:04:02
since. And after I got going again and
00:04:04
had had enough income coming in, enough
00:04:06
interesting work, I really asked her to
00:04:08
come back and work with me again and she
00:04:09
did. And so we've been together the best
00:04:11
part of 30 years now.
00:04:12
>> Incredible.
00:04:13
>> Yeah.
00:04:13
>> Um you're still really busy, eh? So you
00:04:16
you're flowing in from Queenstown today.
00:04:18
Tonight you're flying down to
00:04:19
Wellington.
00:04:20
>> Um
00:04:21
>> you're doing semi-retirement terribly.
00:04:24
>> You just love being busy or
00:04:26
>> Well, I burnt out twice, so I'm not
00:04:29
perhaps I'm not really a good role model
00:04:30
for how to balance. I I don't see myself
00:04:32
as semi-retired, but I do see myself as
00:04:34
in in transition. I stopped doing a few
00:04:36
things last year and I want to I'm well
00:04:40
into my 60s now and I I want to do
00:04:44
things that matter to me that I enjoy
00:04:46
with people I care about ideally people
00:04:48
I love in New Zealand and overseas and
00:04:52
just be off the relentless hamster wheel
00:04:54
of having to be responsible. I'm eldest
00:04:57
girl a very responsible gene and got
00:05:00
very responsible gene. So it's so I am I
00:05:03
have um I've just spent I'm in the
00:05:05
middle of two weeks with a good friend
00:05:06
of mine who's come here from the US and
00:05:08
so mostly I've been able to do a bit of
00:05:09
work on the side but the main thing in
00:05:11
the last 10 days has been having fun at
00:05:12
some of New Zealand's most wonderful
00:05:14
places.
00:05:15
>> Yeah. Oh fantastic. I read a quote from
00:05:17
you. I'm not very nice if I haven't had
00:05:19
my morning swim. Did you swim today?
00:05:21
>> Of course.
00:05:22
>> Oh yeah. Oh god.
00:05:23
>> That's true by the way.
00:05:25
>> Is it?
00:05:25
>> Oh yeah. It's much more important to me
00:05:27
the quality of the hotel swimming pool
00:05:29
than the room itself.
00:05:30
>> Yeah. You're a lifelong swimmer, aren't
00:05:32
you? You've done this through the '9s,
00:05:33
like when you were CEO of Telecom.
00:05:35
>> Oh, absolutely. And then I lived in
00:05:36
Wellington and I had a lovely apartment
00:05:39
across the road from Fryberg swimming
00:05:40
pool, which is where I intend to spend
00:05:42
swim tomorrow morning by the way cuz I'm
00:05:44
I'm going to stay at hotel along that
00:05:45
strip. So, I love swimming. My parents
00:05:48
came from Britain. They couldn't swim
00:05:50
and all of us went to swimming lessons
00:05:51
in Rooua. We were a member of the coach
00:05:53
club and I loved it. And so, I swam and
00:05:57
competed, but I wasn't very good. But I
00:05:59
swam all through my um teenage years.
00:06:01
And then when I went to university, my
00:06:03
first degree, business degree, I sort of
00:06:04
stopped swimming. Um played bon did
00:06:07
other things. And then law school, I
00:06:10
didn't swim. And then when I hit the
00:06:12
workforce, I really felt very, you know,
00:06:15
stressed under pressure. And I realized
00:06:17
I needed to go back to it. And so that's
00:06:18
when I started swimming again in my
00:06:20
early 20ies. And I have swam every day
00:06:25
since then except for the twice I've
00:06:28
been in hospital for a week at a time. I
00:06:29
can't swim then. And I completely
00:06:32
wrecked my Achilles playing tennis and I
00:06:34
broke my wrist being thrown from my
00:06:36
horse. So when I've had broken bones, I
00:06:38
haven't swam. And occasionally I've had
00:06:40
a chest infection. But honestly, it it
00:06:42
would only it would only be a few weeks
00:06:44
in the last 40 years have I not swam in
00:06:48
the morning. That's how I made swimming
00:06:50
is how I made the connection with your
00:06:51
long relationship with um Chris. So
00:06:53
there's an article I read where uh you
00:06:55
got hit by a car while crossing oriental
00:06:57
parade and I think she bought you some
00:06:59
knickers in the hospital or something.
00:07:00
>> That's true.
00:07:02
That's true. Oh well that was a good
00:07:04
service cuz after that they painted a
00:07:05
line so it wouldn't happen to anybody
00:07:06
else.
00:07:07
>> Yeah.
00:07:08
>> Look at you game changing constantly. Um
00:07:11
so you you don't do too many podcasts
00:07:12
these days eh? Like you're you're
00:07:14
feeling under the radar.
00:07:15
>> I don't really. Um,
00:07:18
look, even this one, you know, it took
00:07:21
months to fit in. And
00:07:23
so, I've done I I've done a few for
00:07:26
people who I, you know, I Amanda Miller,
00:07:29
we've go back a long way. She's done
00:07:31
she's done favors for me. I wanted to do
00:07:32
that for her. Um, Bruce Codall, I was
00:07:36
very intrigued with his whole thing
00:07:37
about leadership. So, I was happy to
00:07:39
speak about that. And, um, Paula, um,
00:07:42
>> Bennett, yeah,
00:07:43
>> Bennett, we also go back a long way. I
00:07:45
I've done it for people who I have an
00:07:47
affinity with because that's really the
00:07:49
whole point of my life. Now you're an
00:07:50
exception cuz I don't know you. But you
00:07:53
asked in a really good way and I
00:07:55
thought, "Oh yeah, if I haven't done one
00:07:57
for a while, I'll do one."
00:07:58
>> Amazing. I can't even remember how I
00:08:01
asked. Chad GPT must have done me well.
00:08:03
So when you do these things, what is the
00:08:05
thing that people don't ask you about
00:08:07
enough that they possibly should?
00:08:09
Uh well there isn't there isn't really
00:08:12
anything because it with Amanda she was
00:08:15
quite focused on a gender lens because
00:08:18
she knows I'm a feminist. She knows I'm
00:08:19
chair of global women. She knows I set
00:08:21
up the foundation with my sister to
00:08:22
focus on supporting women and girls. And
00:08:24
so that was that was whereas the um
00:08:27
Bruce one Bruce Cordon was more about
00:08:29
leadership like lessons and leadership.
00:08:31
So they've all sort of had different
00:08:33
themes and so they're asking within the
00:08:36
format of 45 minutes or an hour about
00:08:39
you know that theme and so there's
00:08:41
they've all they've all omitted various
00:08:44
things because it wasn't really their
00:08:45
focus.
00:08:46
>> Yeah. What are you reading right now?
00:08:48
You love reading a you're a ferocious
00:08:49
reader. A book a week.
00:08:51
>> Veracious reader.
00:08:52
>> What did I say?
00:08:53
>> Ferocious.
00:08:56
>> That might be true too. Oh yeah. I read
00:08:58
a book a week. I read nearly a book a
00:09:00
week last year because I had back
00:09:01
surgery last year. So I was in recovery
00:09:03
and then I got a leg infection and then
00:09:04
I had a bad fall. So last year I was had
00:09:07
a lot of time to read but even this time
00:09:09
I'm doing quite well. I'll be reading on
00:09:10
the plane today. Well Sarah Robinson
00:09:12
changed my life when she bought me a
00:09:13
Kindle in hospital last year because now
00:09:15
I have a book on the go on Kindle and
00:09:17
one or two books on the go hard copy and
00:09:19
it's just like so I don't want to talk
00:09:21
about what I'm reading right now. I want
00:09:22
to talk about some of the best books I
00:09:24
read last year cuz that would be better
00:09:26
cuz what I'm neither of the books I'm
00:09:28
reading right now do I think are my are
00:09:30
the best. They're not going to be the
00:09:31
best of 2026 and they're not better than
00:09:33
the best books of 2025.
00:09:34
>> And by the way, if you start reading a
00:09:36
book and you're not enjoying it, how do
00:09:38
you do you follow it through or do you
00:09:39
give up on it?
00:09:40
>> Nearly always. There are only a few
00:09:42
books that I stop. I I first of all I
00:09:46
would never give up on a book until I
00:09:47
was halfway through it because some
00:09:48
books take that while to you know and um
00:09:52
so I would never give up a book till I
00:09:53
was halfway through but I've got a few
00:09:55
books in my shelf that I got to sort of
00:09:56
that point I thought oh no you know this
00:09:59
life's too too short not the next great
00:10:01
book turned up
00:10:02
>> so my favorite books of last year my
00:10:04
favorite book of last year was um Alice
00:10:07
win in memoriam and the reason I mention
00:10:10
this is this is a book that I would
00:10:13
never have chosen myself. It was
00:10:14
recommended to me by my great friend in
00:10:17
reading buddy Pip Greenwood cuz her book
00:10:19
group were do were looking when reading
00:10:21
it and I never would have chosen it. It
00:10:24
was about men fighting in the First
00:10:26
World War. I mean, exactly. It's like it
00:10:29
was so powerful. I then bought another
00:10:31
friend for Christmas. She loved it and
00:10:33
it is it it was amazing. So, I I
00:10:36
thoroughly recommend it whether you're
00:10:37
interested in the First World War or
00:10:39
not. It goes into themes about
00:10:40
homosexuality. It goes into class. um
00:10:44
you know that the officers ran the show
00:10:45
even though most of them didn't know
00:10:46
what the hell they were doing whereas
00:10:48
some of the troops they were commanding
00:10:49
had a much better idea of what the
00:10:51
strategy should have been. Anyway, it it
00:10:53
was it's brilliant. Another book that I
00:10:55
loved last year was Wild Dark Shore
00:10:57
Charlotte McConn. And this is set in
00:11:00
Tasmania and in and down to the Southern
00:11:02
Tartic Islands and it's a it's an ode to
00:11:05
nature within a thriller within a love
00:11:06
story. It's a fantastic read. And uh
00:11:10
another great book that I read was
00:11:12
Covenant of Water Abraham Vazi which is
00:11:14
a saga set in India over you know
00:11:17
generations but it's just the most
00:11:18
moving book. So that's some of my three
00:11:20
great books from last year.
00:11:21
>> Are there any alltime great books like
00:11:23
are you are you generally sort of like a
00:11:26
fiction or a non-fiction?
00:11:27
>> Um I I I I read memoirs. I read a lot of
00:11:31
memoirs and a lot of non and a lot of
00:11:33
fiction. I do read some other
00:11:35
non-fiction. Uh, for example, the book I
00:11:37
bought in Queenstown was Pools of the
00:11:39
World. Why wouldn't I buy the book Best
00:11:42
Pools of the World? So, but that's, you
00:11:44
know,
00:11:46
>> that's such a niche.
00:11:47
>> It's my best books of all time. Um,
00:11:49
memoir, Sharon Stone, The Beauty Living
00:11:52
Twice.
00:11:53
>> Fantastic book about her um, uh, brain
00:11:55
tumor and her recovery from that.
00:11:57
>> Andre Agassy, Open.
00:11:59
>> Oh my god, that book's incredible.
00:12:00
>> Incredible. I liked him way less when I
00:12:02
finished it than when I started. So, you
00:12:04
know, that's that's uh that's that's how
00:12:07
honest that that book was. Uh fiction,
00:12:10
still life, that's an ode to Italy,
00:12:12
which is my favorite country outside New
00:12:13
Zealand. Still life by Sarah Winman. And
00:12:16
I always have always loved The
00:12:17
Handmaid's Tale, you know, that was my
00:12:19
favorite book well before the movie and
00:12:22
the TV series and and um what's going on
00:12:24
in America now. I always thought it was
00:12:26
a potential horror future rather than
00:12:29
just fiction.
00:12:30
>> Yeah.
00:12:31
>> Thanks for those insights. Um, I want to
00:12:34
go back to your childhood.
00:12:35
>> I've got a photo here. Gorgeous photo.
00:12:38
>> Yes.
00:12:38
>> The woman sitting in front of me in her
00:12:40
60s today.
00:12:41
>> Yes.
00:12:41
>> How is she the same as that girl with
00:12:43
the pigtail?
00:12:44
>> Well,
00:12:46
I think she is the same cuz you can see
00:12:48
that she's got a really happy energy.
00:12:51
>> And she's doing what she's told. She's
00:12:53
sitting up. She's got a hair class. I
00:12:54
mean, I don't wear plats anymore, but
00:12:56
you know, I have a fringe, although
00:12:58
usually better cut than that.
00:13:01
Um
00:13:03
yeah, I I was a goody two shoes at
00:13:05
school and um cuz you know my parents
00:13:08
came from Britain, John and Marian
00:13:09
Gatting to escape the lack of
00:13:12
opportunity of their backgrounds and
00:13:14
they wanted the best for their four
00:13:15
girls. I'm the eldest of four. I'm close
00:13:18
to all three of my sisters, Evan,
00:13:19
Andrew, and Marian. There's only four,
00:13:21
you know, three and a half years between
00:13:22
us. And education was the key to the
00:13:25
future cuz ne no one from their family
00:13:26
had ever gone to university. So, I was
00:13:28
on a path at school to study hard and to
00:13:31
go to university and to, you know, make
00:13:34
something of myself. And then something
00:13:36
formative happened to me when I was a
00:13:37
bit older than this. I think I'm about
00:13:38
11 in that photo. When I was 14, I asked
00:13:42
my parents if they would pay for me to
00:13:43
go to New Calonia on the school trip. I
00:13:45
studying French. And they said no, cuz
00:13:48
if they paid for me to pay for my
00:13:49
sisters as well. And I was like I was
00:13:52
like heartbroken. And I made a vow to
00:13:54
myself then that I would earn enough
00:13:57
money for myself that I would be able to
00:13:59
do what it was that I wanted to do. That
00:14:01
no one I wouldn't ask I would never have
00:14:04
to ask anyone for money again. And I
00:14:06
basically haven't.
00:14:07
>> I started work when I was 15. I've earn
00:14:09
I've earned ever since then. And um I've
00:14:12
never asked anyone for money.
00:14:14
>> And your your dad John um I believe he
00:14:17
installed in you and your sisters a
00:14:19
thing like don't rely on the government,
00:14:20
don't rely on a man.
00:14:21
>> He did. He did. He was
00:14:23
>> fend for yourself.
00:14:24
>> Yeah. Well, first of all, dad um had
00:14:25
very good values around money. I think a
00:14:28
lot of people think money is a stock and
00:14:31
if you have it, then I can't have it.
00:14:33
And that
00:14:34
>> scarity mindset,
00:14:35
>> scarcity mindset. Dad wasn't like that.
00:14:36
Dad was an abundance mindset. Dad was
00:14:38
there's enough money for all. You can
00:14:40
create what you know there's many ways
00:14:42
to create it. And so I always think of
00:14:45
money as energy. And he used to say you
00:14:49
can create it yourself. You have to rely
00:14:50
on yourself because government policies
00:14:52
change. Governments come and go. And you
00:14:55
know, if you're relying on your husband,
00:14:57
they can get sick. They can get made
00:14:58
redundant. They can leave you. So, I
00:15:00
always remember him saying, "You need to
00:15:02
be able to earn enough to support
00:15:03
yourself and any children you may wish
00:15:05
to have."
00:15:06
>> God, you had good role models with your
00:15:08
parents, didn't you?
00:15:08
>> Yeah. Really good role models.
00:15:10
>> This this 11-year-old Theresa, so she
00:15:12
she was allowed to think big and think
00:15:14
that anything was possible, but the the
00:15:16
options then were pretty limited, right?
00:15:18
1960s New Zealand for a girl.
00:15:20
>> Well, I suppose they were, but they
00:15:21
weren't limited in my mind.
00:15:22
>> Yeah.
00:15:23
>> Um I I read, my mother read a lot. We
00:15:27
we'd go to the library every week. We'd
00:15:29
get two books out a week. I'd read them
00:15:30
and take them back. And then when I got
00:15:34
to high school, I studied extra
00:15:36
subjects. When I was 15, I was doing
00:15:38
everything you could. And I I just
00:15:40
didn't really see any any limitation.
00:15:42
But it is true that um when I went to
00:15:45
tell the pr the principal of the school,
00:15:48
it was an all girls very small Catholic
00:15:50
all girls school. They assumed that
00:15:52
their girls were all going off to be
00:15:54
like teachers or you know nurses. I mean
00:15:57
there was but you know my best friend
00:15:59
who was also a joint duck she went off
00:16:00
to be a doctor
00:16:01
>> and I decided to go to Wetto and and do
00:16:04
a uh do a management degree.
00:16:06
>> And your family nickname was Chief Girl.
00:16:09
>> Yes. Is that just cuz you're the oldest
00:16:12
or you you were just bossy or
00:16:14
>> Well, both of those. But when the story
00:16:17
goes that when um see both dad dad's
00:16:19
father had died, but dad's mom came to
00:16:21
New Zealand and with a couple of her
00:16:22
sisters and their and mom's parents came
00:16:24
to New Zealand as well. And the story
00:16:26
goes that when mom and dad's when mom's
00:16:28
parents turned up, I greeted them by
00:16:30
saying, "I'm Theresa and I'm Chief
00:16:32
Girl."
00:16:34
>> Where did that come from?
00:16:35
>> Well, I don't know. Dad must have called
00:16:37
me that or someone. It must have I must
00:16:38
have been called that. But it's like I I
00:16:41
obviously took on the identification of
00:16:42
that.
00:16:44
>> Oh. Um yeah, just a a fun fact about
00:16:46
your secondary school year. You you went
00:16:48
to the same secondary school as um Dame
00:16:50
Susan Deo. She was a year behind
00:16:52
>> behind you.
00:16:53
>> Yes.
00:16:53
>> Two dames two years in a row. That's
00:16:55
incredible.
00:16:55
>> Yes. There's this there there probably
00:16:57
are some other there are some other Hana
00:17:01
Manipoto went to that school as well.
00:17:03
>> Oh, from Moana and the Mahunters, former
00:17:05
wife of Willie Jackson.
00:17:06
>> Yep. Um I remember we had dinner a
00:17:08
couple of years ago and she said oh yeah
00:17:10
so it was a very small school and it was
00:17:13
quite good though because the nuns were
00:17:15
good role models you know that there was
00:17:17
women running that school that's a
00:17:18
that's a it wasn't until I went to him
00:17:20
have classes maths classes at 16 the boy
00:17:22
school next door that I encountered any
00:17:24
teachers thinking that I there was
00:17:26
something I couldn't do
00:17:28
>> so there was no sort of sexism in your
00:17:30
in your your early years your childhood
00:17:33
>> it wasn't a thing my father had five
00:17:35
sisters and no brothers So he and he's
00:17:38
very very close to his mother, enormous
00:17:40
respect for his mother. She set up her
00:17:42
own wall shop like she was quite
00:17:43
entrepreneurial for her era and he
00:17:46
really respected her and he really was a
00:17:49
great husband to my mom who's still
00:17:50
alive because he he saw potential in her
00:17:53
that she might not have seen in herself
00:17:54
and encouraged her to be an entrepreneur
00:17:56
and to and she really blossomed. So my
00:17:58
father has always he's very considered
00:18:01
man physically not very active. Even
00:18:03
when he was young, his favorite sport
00:18:04
was fishing. You know, not very active
00:18:06
physically, but uh very big picture
00:18:09
thinker and um uh quietly insightful
00:18:12
about people. And you know, at his
00:18:14
funeral, the impact he'd had on the
00:18:16
grandchildren, my three sisters have all
00:18:18
all had children, was phenomenal. You
00:18:20
know, what he'd been able to convey to
00:18:22
them and um you know, so yeah, quite not
00:18:27
not a big person publicly, but privately
00:18:29
had a huge impact. He of course was um
00:18:32
really bright but could had to leave
00:18:34
school early to support his family.
00:18:36
>> Came to New Zealand, became a town
00:18:37
planner and it wasn't until I heard him
00:18:39
speak at my uh mother's mother's funeral
00:18:43
that I realized what a good ortor he
00:18:45
was, what a good speaker he was and I
00:18:46
thought gosh I love debating. I've got
00:18:48
that from my dad.
00:18:49
>> Yeah.
00:18:51
So after school you studied business at
00:18:53
Wicked and then Lauren Wellington. Um
00:18:56
>> you you used to wear power seats to you
00:18:58
know why why did you
00:19:01
cuz I'm I don't know. It It says a lot
00:19:03
about your um strong will of character,
00:19:06
I guess. Cuz at that age, all I want to
00:19:07
do is fit in.
00:19:08
>> Oh, yeah.
00:19:09
>> So, if everyone else was wearing um
00:19:10
Abberrombie and Fitch, I'd want to wear
00:19:12
Abberrombie and Fitch. I'm guessing not
00:19:14
many people were wearing like power
00:19:15
suits to their lectures.
00:19:16
>> Well, this is White Cat and this was
00:19:19
business school was literally in a
00:19:21
converted cow shed. And this is before
00:19:23
daring was as sexy as it is today. And
00:19:26
it was nearly all male and the only
00:19:29
women in class were doing accounting as
00:19:30
majors and I was doing economics and
00:19:32
marketing
00:19:34
and I naturally like to stand out. I
00:19:35
guess I've got a main character energy
00:19:37
personality and I like colorful I like
00:19:40
color and in my life etc. So but but
00:19:44
particularly about the suits was I
00:19:46
decided in the second year of um
00:19:48
management school that I wanted to be a
00:19:50
CEO
00:19:51
and then I decided I started getting
00:19:54
clipping fold together of woman I
00:19:56
admired who had become a CEO or achieved
00:19:58
high leadership positions and so I
00:20:00
thought well I have to project it but it
00:20:03
started before that. My sister Angela
00:20:04
will tell you that when mom taught us
00:20:06
all to sew I made myself a suit. This is
00:20:08
when I was like 16. So it started
00:20:11
earlier but yes at university I wore
00:20:12
suits because I was projecting forward.
00:20:15
>> Mhm.
00:20:15
>> I wouldn't wear a suit now.
00:20:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And your
00:20:20
boyfriend at the time had wear suits as
00:20:21
well.
00:20:22
>> Yeah. He he well he came out as gay not
00:20:24
long after that. But at that in that
00:20:27
point before it became obvious that we
00:20:29
weren't going to have this sort of
00:20:30
amazing new couple relationship. One
00:20:31
straight and one gay. Um he loved
00:20:34
wearing every color Pakadan shirt with
00:20:37
his suit. So yeah, we and he was tall,
00:20:39
very good-looking. I was tall. Uh so we
00:20:42
must have looked a sight, but it was it
00:20:44
was management school. But remember, it
00:20:46
wasn't just that. I was doing woman
00:20:48
studies as well. So I I that was a very
00:20:51
interesting period of my life. I have
00:20:52
almost no friends from that era because
00:20:54
in management school I surrounded by blo
00:20:58
were definitely they they weren't very
00:21:01
you know oriented to women being the
00:21:03
equals. And then when I went over to
00:21:05
school of politics and women's studies,
00:21:07
they didn't like people who were
00:21:09
commercial, who were actually feminist.
00:21:11
I loved reading all the feminist
00:21:12
literature. I love debating all of that.
00:21:14
I still look at the world through a
00:21:15
gender lens. But I also want to make
00:21:18
money. And that was a very unusual
00:21:20
combination
00:21:22
>> 40 years ago.
00:21:23
>> Oh, more than that. More than 40 years
00:21:24
ago.
00:21:25
>> You've heard you describe yourself as a
00:21:26
capitalist, feminist, feminist, and a
00:21:28
philanthropist.
00:21:29
>> Yeah, it's still true. Was it when was
00:21:34
that when you first encountered any sort
00:21:35
of sexism once you got out of the family
00:21:37
home? And
00:21:38
>> no, I first encountered sexism at school
00:21:40
when I had the shared classes next door
00:21:42
with the brothers in the maths class
00:21:45
when I can't remember the brother's
00:21:46
name, but he he didn't think that girls
00:21:49
could do maths. That was a that was a
00:21:50
province for boys. That was a I was 16
00:21:53
by then and you know 16 year olds know
00:21:56
everything. So there's no way that what
00:21:57
someone what some fusty dusty brother
00:22:01
with his funny collar and everything is
00:22:03
going to say is going to impact me at
00:22:04
that point. It's way too late.
00:22:06
>> What a dumb thing to say.
00:22:08
>> Well yeah was whatever he said or
00:22:10
whatever the attitude was. So that was
00:22:11
the first time I encountered it.
00:22:13
>> And then no doubt you encountered a lot
00:22:15
through your career. I believe you want
00:22:16
to be a merchant banker and
00:22:17
>> I did. Um you've done very good
00:22:19
research. Most people don't know about
00:22:21
this. So um well I I went to W
00:22:25
University because I like the fact that
00:22:27
business school had you could do
00:22:29
languages, you could do woman studies
00:22:30
and also my the boyfriend that not that
00:22:33
boyfriend the previous boyfriend was
00:22:34
going there
00:22:36
when I then I then but I'd always wanted
00:22:38
to do law as well and so I decided that
00:22:42
by then I had a different boyfriend
00:22:43
again who became my partner for over 20
00:22:45
years and he was going to Wellington and
00:22:47
I thought yep I am going to do a law
00:22:48
degree. I got job offers when I finished
00:22:50
business school. I got honors at
00:22:51
business school. I got job offers but I
00:22:53
decided to go to Wellington and do law.
00:22:55
About halfway through that I decided I
00:22:58
didn't want to be a lawyer. I was
00:22:59
already a manager with a team. I loved
00:23:01
it and I thought I don't want to be a
00:23:03
lawyer.
00:23:04
When I finished law school though after
00:23:06
I'd been at TVZ for a few years was my
00:23:09
first job was in TV and zed sales and
00:23:11
marketing. I decided that um I would
00:23:13
quite like to do investment banking. And
00:23:15
so I tried to get a job in investment
00:23:16
banking. This is like, you know, the 80s
00:23:18
heydays. And I I I I couldn't I tried
00:23:22
really hard and I couldn't get a job.
00:23:23
And I got rejection letter. And when I
00:23:26
rang them, they said, "Well, it's it's
00:23:27
not a place for a woman." They didn't
00:23:28
put that in the letter, but they told me
00:23:29
that over the over the phone. And of
00:23:32
course, that's terrible, but also it was
00:23:33
true, right? You know, all the only
00:23:35
recent in recent years, there's been
00:23:37
litigation about the fact that it's been
00:23:39
a terrible place for for women. So, but
00:23:42
you know, my father also said, "When the
00:23:44
door closes, find a window." There's
00:23:46
never one way to do anything in life.
00:23:48
There's always at least four ways to
00:23:50
approach anything. There's no there's
00:23:52
there's you can't and and you can't be
00:23:54
stopped really in your early 20ies. You
00:23:56
just have to, you know, do something
00:23:57
else.
00:24:00
>> That's um it's fascinating that they
00:24:03
told you over the phone they didn't put
00:24:04
in writing. Says to me, they they knew
00:24:05
it was
00:24:06
>> Oh, they knew. They knew it was they
00:24:07
knew they they didn't want to put it in
00:24:09
writing.
00:24:09
>> Very clever.
00:24:10
>> Yeah.
00:24:11
>> Unbelievable. And then you so you're
00:24:13
working at National Mutual in your 20s
00:24:15
and this is when you suffer your first
00:24:17
experience with burnout.
00:24:18
>> Yes, because I'm still doing law school
00:24:20
and I was a little bit sensible. I they
00:24:23
asked me did I want to do honors in law
00:24:24
and I said no, I wouldn't cope with the
00:24:26
pressure and the workload because by
00:24:28
then I was working full-time as well.
00:24:30
And so I was working full-time and
00:24:31
studying full-time and putting putting
00:24:34
myself under pressure. And I then ended
00:24:37
up with tremendous pain in my teeth.
00:24:39
>> M
00:24:40
>> and you know like like when you have to
00:24:42
have your teeth root filled like an
00:24:44
abscess pain and it just went on and on
00:24:46
and I got more and more teeth didn't go
00:24:48
away. This went on for nearly a year and
00:24:50
eventually I ended up um referred to
00:24:53
Wellington Hospital to the head of
00:24:54
dental there and he said you've got
00:24:56
temporal mandibular joint syndrome TMJ
00:24:58
nothing to do with your teeth but we can
00:25:00
give you a bite plate and that can take
00:25:03
the pressure off at night and that
00:25:05
really helped and then I started having
00:25:07
um well it wasn't osteopathy then I
00:25:10
think it was chiropractor but I started
00:25:12
having back manipulations but that's
00:25:14
when I also uh by that point I was
00:25:17
swimming By that point I was swimming
00:25:20
but I then I stopped drinking coffee at
00:25:21
that point and I I'd already stopped
00:25:23
drinking alcohol. I never really drank
00:25:25
alcohol at university.
00:25:27
So I started um just being more
00:25:29
disciplined about my life because I
00:25:31
wanted to be well and that was in my
00:25:32
mid20ies.
00:25:34
>> Yeah.
00:25:34
>> Um you suffered another bad of burnout
00:25:36
later on when you were at Telecom. But
00:25:38
>> no no no my next burnout was in my
00:25:41
mid-50s after after we we sold um my
00:25:44
food bag. No, I didn't suffer burnout at
00:25:46
telecom. God, how how did how did you
00:25:48
not?
00:25:50
>> Cuz I had such a fantastic team and
00:25:52
because when you're 40, you've got a
00:25:53
huge amount of energy. You've got See,
00:25:56
in your 20ies, you're sort of so
00:25:58
impatient. You think you have to achieve
00:26:00
everything to drink and morning tea. So,
00:26:01
I push myself too hard. By your 40s,
00:26:04
you've actually got a much better idea
00:26:06
of what you need. Like, you got to
00:26:08
manage your sleep and you got people
00:26:10
around you. And then again, but then by
00:26:13
your 50s, you for me anyway, my mid late
00:26:16
50s, I thought I still had the energy
00:26:17
that I had in my 40s and I didn't. And
00:26:19
so I burnt out then. Yeah.
00:26:22
>> Cuz the woman sitting in front of me
00:26:24
today, she seems to have like a
00:26:25
tremendous amount of energy and you're
00:26:26
doing so much work, but I suppose you've
00:26:28
just got the um I don't know, the muscle
00:26:30
memory, if that's the term, like the
00:26:31
capacity to do all this work like which
00:26:33
seems crazy to me, but it's a lifetime
00:26:35
of
00:26:36
>> Well, a lot of it brings me joy. you
00:26:38
know the foundation uh setting up the
00:26:40
chair of women entrepreneurship at
00:26:41
Oakland
00:26:42
>> business school Oakland University that
00:26:45
is really joyful. I you know when when
00:26:47
and when I you know I was trying to get
00:26:51
uh establish a chair chair of woman
00:26:53
entrepreneurship so that women who are
00:26:55
at business school and women doing other
00:26:57
things like arts and science could do
00:26:58
courses in entrepreneurship and men too
00:27:00
and that's exactly it's worked out like
00:27:02
that. It's brilliant and it just filled
00:27:04
my heart with joy when in the first year
00:27:06
of offering these courses after that
00:27:08
first year some of the women who've done
00:27:09
it decided to create a version of it for
00:27:13
school girls. So you know hundreds and
00:27:15
hundreds of Oakland school girls from
00:27:17
lower desile schools 11 and 12 and 13
00:27:19
year olds have gone to the university
00:27:20
for a day to learn about
00:27:22
entrepreneurship. Now when you're 11
00:27:24
people don't say well girls from South
00:27:25
Oakland can't achieve that or you know
00:27:28
whatever. So that was like just that
00:27:31
brings me so much joy. So yes, it's
00:27:34
work. Um it costs money, but it's like
00:27:37
it's joyful. It's like what else do you
00:27:39
do? I but I do find myself in a
00:27:41
situation where I'm still busy making
00:27:42
money and then shoveling as much as I
00:27:44
make away out the other side. It's like
00:27:45
some people would say, "What the hell?"
00:27:49
That's what I find myself doing at the
00:27:51
moment.
00:27:52
>> But you got to do things with your money
00:27:53
that brings you joy.
00:27:54
>> Yeah.
00:27:54
>> And it seems like you do. Whether it's
00:27:56
um whether it's you know buying a house
00:27:58
with a nice swimming pool which is
00:27:59
something that's important to you or
00:28:01
having a nice vehicle which you're
00:28:02
rolled up in today or or giving it away.
00:28:04
>> Yeah.
00:28:05
>> Yeah.
00:28:05
>> Yeah.
00:28:06
>> So telecom let's talk about that. So
00:28:09
1997
00:28:11
>> you become CEO the the
00:28:13
>> 1999 I became CEO9.
00:28:15
>> Who was the prime minister at the time?
00:28:16
Was it Shipley or Clark?
00:28:17
>> Yes it was Jenny Shipley and then Helen
00:28:19
Clark won that election. So and you know
00:28:22
I'm I'm good mates with both those women
00:28:24
today. M
00:28:25
>> so New Zealand's a small place and um
00:28:28
Helen Clark, Sylvia Cartwright, Margaret
00:28:31
Wilson and I have had a lovely lunch
00:28:33
together, you know, between Christmas
00:28:35
and New Year this year because Helen,
00:28:38
Sylvia and I all love Wahhee Beach. It's
00:28:40
like um my Tingway. So yes, that that
00:28:44
was the and Sylvia spoke at a conference
00:28:47
not soon in that year and she was
00:28:49
talking about you know um women running
00:28:51
the biggest company, woman prime
00:28:53
minister, woman leader of the
00:28:54
opposition, woman high court cuz Sha was
00:28:57
chief justice and she said well my
00:29:00
prediction is that they'll all be
00:29:02
replaced by men and that's exactly what
00:29:03
happened. So it was like a false dawn.
00:29:05
It was like this oh woman running
00:29:07
everything we've got equality at last
00:29:08
but it it it really wasn't. It was just
00:29:11
the coincidence of a group of remarkable
00:29:13
women who were determined and talented
00:29:15
and made it to the top and that's really
00:29:18
inspiring for girls and younger women
00:29:20
coming through and we've we've carried
00:29:22
on. All of us live in New Zealand. All
00:29:25
of us are trying to make New Zealand the
00:29:26
best it can be cuz it's a beacon of hope
00:29:28
in the world. That's for sure at the
00:29:29
moment. Uh but it was never it was still
00:29:32
it wasn't systems that achieved that. So
00:29:35
that's one of the reasons I've loved
00:29:36
cheering Global Woman over the last few
00:29:37
years because now there are a few more
00:29:39
female CEOs and a few more female chairs
00:29:41
of companies and companies totally
00:29:43
committed to, you know, parental leave
00:29:46
in a way that hasn't been done before
00:29:48
and um gender pay gap reporting and all
00:29:51
of those things that change the system
00:29:53
for the woman coming through.
00:29:56
>> So just over a quarter of a century
00:29:58
later from getting that telecom job, is
00:30:00
is it better for women in New Zealand
00:30:01
now or is it much it is
00:30:02
>> No, it is better. It's
00:30:03
>> much better. um
00:30:05
>> still still a lot of work to do.
00:30:06
>> Well, that depends if in terms of
00:30:09
corporates, yes, I think it is much
00:30:11
better. New Zealand has um really had a
00:30:15
decade now of more and more women
00:30:16
getting on boards. And if you look at
00:30:18
the banking sector, so ASB has a female
00:30:22
CEO, Victoria Short, and a female chair,
00:30:24
Dame Theres Walsh.
00:30:26
>> Westpak has a female CEO, Katherine
00:30:28
McGr, a female chair, Pip Greenwood.
00:30:30
Kiwi Bank has a female chair, Susan
00:30:32
Peterson.
00:30:34
Uh, A&Z has a female CEO, Antonio
00:30:36
Watson, who actually saw at dinner last
00:30:38
night. So, that's a lot. And now we've
00:30:41
got a female Governor Reserve Bank, Anna
00:30:44
Breman, and we've got a female minister
00:30:45
of finance, Nicola Willis. Now, there
00:30:47
isn't I don't think there's any other
00:30:50
country in the whole damn world that
00:30:52
would have women controlling the poutia
00:30:54
like that. You show me a country where
00:30:55
they got women running the banking
00:30:56
system. Is there such a country? So in
00:31:00
corporate life it's got much better but
00:31:04
the last 10 years so I'm you know I
00:31:06
cheered um AIA which is um one of one of
00:31:09
the two biggest life insurance companies
00:31:10
in the world. I cheered Australia for a
00:31:12
decade and then when they bought
00:31:14
sovereign in New Zealand I cheered New
00:31:15
Zealand for the last seven eight years
00:31:16
and just stopped at the end end of last
00:31:18
year because I want to do a bit less.
00:31:20
And when you look at um oh what did I
00:31:24
say that? Oh yes. So if you look at
00:31:25
corporates, yes, I think it's got a lot
00:31:27
better. But in the last 15 years, apart
00:31:29
from doing AIA and Last Fusion, I've
00:31:32
been mainly involved in
00:31:33
entrepreneurialism because Selia
00:31:35
Robinson had the wonderful idea to set
00:31:37
up my food bag and we did that with
00:31:39
Celia and James Robinson, Nadia Lim and
00:31:41
her husband Carlos Bagry and now I'm
00:31:44
doing um I'm the chair and big investor
00:31:46
in Tend which is the next startup tent
00:31:49
healthcare, the next startup that James
00:31:51
and Sector. So through that process and
00:31:54
also the I brought Shio to New Zealand
00:31:56
to fund women's businesses and then I
00:31:58
set up the center at the Oakland
00:31:59
business school. So I've become more in
00:32:01
the entrepreneurial space and in that
00:32:02
space it's still much harder to be a
00:32:05
woman. The stats are shocking.
00:32:07
It is so much harder to raise capital if
00:32:09
you're one woman or two women than if
00:32:11
you're one man or two men. And if I
00:32:14
speak now to woman aspiring
00:32:17
entrepreneurs, I say honey, find a male
00:32:20
co-founder. It's going to be so much
00:32:22
easier. It's not the way the world
00:32:24
should be, but it is the way the world
00:32:25
is. There are hardly any invest there. I
00:32:28
don't think there are any investment
00:32:30
committees in New Zealand that are
00:32:31
gender balanced, male and female.
00:32:33
>> There are there male. They look for
00:32:35
patterns that they're familiar with.
00:32:37
They don't see problems as women
00:32:38
experience them. And this is this is
00:32:41
true in healthcare as well. Um, a few
00:32:43
years ago after my second burnout, I
00:32:45
went to a place doesn't exist now where
00:32:47
they do a full sort of health check. And
00:32:49
they put me on this program for
00:32:52
restricted eating, restricted protein,
00:32:54
restricted carb for 5 days and you stop.
00:32:57
And I felt like [ __ ] I did it twice.
00:32:59
And I said to the doctor who put me on
00:33:00
it, who was a woman, I'm not doing that
00:33:01
again. I felt emotionally flat. I felt
00:33:04
physically unwell. I'm not sacrificing
00:33:06
work in my life. Anyway, she left
00:33:08
because she had maternity leave. And
00:33:10
then a male doctor turned up. He said,
00:33:12
"Oh no." He said, "The latest research
00:33:14
shows that's great for men but terrible
00:33:16
for women cuz it pushes up their
00:33:17
hormones. said to Tessterone
00:33:19
>> and later I spoke to the woman doctor
00:33:21
who put me on it and she said yeah she
00:33:23
said I always really struggled but the
00:33:24
men in the clinic loved it and so health
00:33:26
isn't always it's done on a male body
00:33:28
but female bodies are different so
00:33:30
>> not just little men
00:33:31
>> no not just little men so how did I get
00:33:34
on to that it's so is it better for
00:33:37
women yes in the corporate space in New
00:33:39
Zealand I think it's a lot better than
00:33:42
you know the decades ago but on the
00:33:44
entrepreneurial space it's still tougher
00:33:47
if you're a M.
00:33:49
>> So 1999 when you land that job at
00:33:51
Telecom, what what's that like? You go
00:33:53
from being um basically just a regular
00:33:55
civilian to being a household name
00:33:57
overnight.
00:33:58
>> That is what happened.
00:33:59
>> It must have been wild.
00:34:00
>> Well, it was wild. I'd walk down the
00:34:02
street lamp key and see the the poster
00:34:04
of the front page. And of course in
00:34:06
those times we weren't all buried on our
00:34:09
phones in the internet, right? So if
00:34:11
people are reading the I don't know if
00:34:13
it was the Dom then or the Dom post, but
00:34:14
people people are reading paper. I still
00:34:16
read the paper by the way. I still get
00:34:17
hard copy. I still like reading the B.
00:34:18
>> You're old school.
00:34:19
>> I'm old school. I popped in my letter
00:34:21
box this morning and got my Herald.
00:34:23
>> When I I flick through it in the cafe
00:34:24
whenever I'm there. It kind of gets
00:34:25
thinner and thinner, doesn't it?
00:34:27
>> Well, it depends. Um I quite like
00:34:29
Wednesday is a Viva session. So I quite
00:34:32
like today.
00:34:33
>> The pull out the pull out guide. Yeah.
00:34:34
So So 199 I mean um there was Yeah. No
00:34:37
internet then. So there was no social
00:34:38
media. So there was none of that sort of
00:34:39
backlash. But
00:34:41
>> yeah, what what were collections of the
00:34:43
time?
00:34:44
>> Bewilderment. I mean in shock. It wasn't
00:34:47
negative at all. It was like
00:34:49
mic drop moment. Say what? A young
00:34:53
woman. Say what? And of course I was 37.
00:34:55
Guess who else was 37? She became prime
00:34:57
minister. And I was asked in my press
00:34:59
conference, are you going to have
00:34:59
children? Now I knew I wasn't I wasn't
00:35:02
going to, but I don't think I said that.
00:35:04
So isn't it interesting that I don't
00:35:06
know how many years later, 20 years
00:35:07
later, Justinda becomes prime minister.
00:35:08
She gets asked the same question.
00:35:10
>> So nothing so much had changed but
00:35:12
nothing had changed.
00:35:12
>> So so much had changed but nothing had
00:35:14
changed. Yeah.
00:35:15
>> Did you um you just mentioned the kids
00:35:17
thing then. Yeah. Was that a a a
00:35:19
decision by you or was it just something
00:35:21
you were so busy that you missed that
00:35:23
window?
00:35:23
>> No. No. No. It was a decision. I knew at
00:35:25
16 that I didn't have the energy to do
00:35:27
everything I wanted in my life and have
00:35:29
children. And um then John and I got
00:35:31
together when we were 21 and he didn't
00:35:33
want children either.
00:35:34
>> And so that was a very happy, you know,
00:35:38
situation. And I never went through I
00:35:40
went through menopause quite early. I
00:35:42
never went through a last minute my my
00:35:45
best friend who died Margaret Ducas
00:35:46
would very sad story um you know she
00:35:49
turned 40 she was like oh she really
00:35:51
thought again should I have a child but
00:35:52
I I didn't I I just knew I really need a
00:35:55
good solid 8 hours sleep a night and I
00:35:57
just don't imagine I could ever have but
00:35:59
that's got much better I wouldn't want
00:36:01
to anyone listening to think that's such
00:36:03
so much of a problem now corporates are
00:36:05
much better but in my day you had to be
00:36:08
able to do this go there do that you had
00:36:10
you could be a woman but you sort of had
00:36:11
to sit intents of purpose. It sort of
00:36:13
had to be a available like a man was.
00:36:15
Yeah.
00:36:15
>> So, it was sort of one or the other
00:36:16
really. You had to pick.
00:36:17
>> Well, I mean, Sylvie Cara didn't have
00:36:20
kids. Helen Clark didn't have kids. I
00:36:21
mean, just have a look at the woman from
00:36:23
that era and on the whole, we didn't
00:36:25
have children.
00:36:26
>> Did you in and when you first landed
00:36:28
that role um at such a young age is
00:36:30
what? [ __ ] it is young. Eh, you look
00:36:32
back now from like I'm I'm 53, you're in
00:36:34
your 60s.
00:36:34
>> Yeah. Look back now, you think it's
00:36:35
young.
00:36:35
>> If I see a 37y old I think they're a kid
00:36:38
now.
00:36:39
Did you did you experience any agism
00:36:42
>> like from
00:36:43
>> Not really cuz I'd been in the company
00:36:44
for about seven years at that maybe.
00:36:47
Yeah, I've been in the company for a
00:36:48
while at that point and a lot of people
00:36:50
internally were delighted and so no I
00:36:54
didn't really experience agism cuz
00:36:56
Rodick was still chair. He'd gone from
00:36:57
being CEO to chair.
00:36:59
>> Rodick Dean he was
00:37:00
>> and so it just it it was quite a it was
00:37:03
quite a happy and it was quite a happy
00:37:05
transition really. What did an average
00:37:07
day look like in that? No emails then.
00:37:09
>> Oh, no. No, there were emails by then.
00:37:10
>> There was emails. Yeah, there were
00:37:11
emails by then,
00:37:12
>> but not on there was no Blackmail.
00:37:14
>> I'm trying to remember. I remember the
00:37:16
Harriet the Hawker the first the first
00:37:19
smartphone I had. Well, I'm trying to
00:37:21
remember what it name was. I It's not
00:37:24
like an iPhone or a uh Samsung Galaxy
00:37:27
today, but um there were by the time I
00:37:29
was CEO, yeah, there were you you could
00:37:31
get emails on your phone, you could get
00:37:32
news on your phone. So that had started
00:37:34
but not the social media of of like
00:37:36
today but yeah no we were moving at a
00:37:38
faster pace
00:37:39
>> that that period from when I joined
00:37:41
telecom to became CEO the technology
00:37:44
change was incredible it went from
00:37:46
landlines and pages to getting all your
00:37:48
information on your phone that's how
00:37:50
fast although the phones were a bit
00:37:52
bigger than they are today then they got
00:37:53
smaller again bigger again but that few
00:37:56
years that five six years was quite a
00:37:59
you know looking back you go wow yeah
00:38:02
>> it's it's wild. And I I think um we're
00:38:04
so lucky to have lived through all of
00:38:05
this, you know, the the the landline,
00:38:08
the the TV with two channels, one
00:38:10
channel, two channels to the to where
00:38:12
we're at now. Like it's it's a wonderful
00:38:13
thing to live through.
00:38:14
>> We might be the lucky generation,
00:38:15
though. You mentioned about Celia being
00:38:16
on your show about under 16. I mean, I
00:38:19
think social media is
00:38:21
>> so harmful in many contexts that um
00:38:24
>> we we might be the we might be the lucky
00:38:26
generation. We got the good things about
00:38:28
the internet without a lot of the toxic
00:38:29
downside. But our nieces, nephews,
00:38:32
children, daughters, granddaughters are
00:38:34
possibly facing a lot of the worst of
00:38:36
it. So yeah, technology is a is a is
00:38:39
both a blessing and a curse.
00:38:41
>> Was was Y2K and the Y2K bug a big thing
00:38:44
for you? Do you remember that?
00:38:45
>> We wasted millions on that. Y2K. Yes.
00:38:49
For anyone that doesn't remember, like
00:38:51
on midnight on the 31st of December
00:38:53
1999, no one no one was sure what was
00:38:55
going to happen to all the computer
00:38:56
technology around the world. Yes. I
00:38:58
wonder what it was like being CEO of
00:38:59
like a teleico at that point.
00:39:01
>> Oh well, that was a huge project. We're
00:39:03
paying consultants. We managed it. And
00:39:05
then at midnight, clock ticked midnight,
00:39:07
1 minute past, guess what? Nothing.
00:39:10
Everything's still working. I mean, you
00:39:14
know, that's interesting, Dom, as you
00:39:15
mentioned that because the world just
00:39:16
moved on. I've never seen an analysis.
00:39:19
Was that a fraud? Was that just a Was
00:39:22
that was a fraud perpetuated by the
00:39:24
world's consultants or was that just
00:39:27
excess conservatism and when it got hold
00:39:30
companies couldn't afford to miss the
00:39:31
bus in case there was a problem?
00:39:34
>> There was a massive ad campaign that was
00:39:36
unavoidable.
00:39:37
>> It was it was huge. Not just in New
00:39:38
Zealand like it was big. It was a big
00:39:40
thing.
00:39:41
>> So in that job, what was a what was a
00:39:42
good day and what was a bad day?
00:39:45
Well, that job changed, you know, over
00:39:48
eight years. It changed a lot. A good
00:39:50
day was obviously when we did, you know,
00:39:54
we we were selling lots of mobile
00:39:56
phones. The share price was either
00:39:58
rising or high. Um, a bad day was when I
00:40:02
wake up somewhere in America or the UK
00:40:05
completely jetlagged and got to go and
00:40:06
talk to investors for the day.
00:40:09
Yeah, it was physically tough to um be
00:40:12
running a business while you were
00:40:14
overseas and it was because all most
00:40:15
investors lived overseas. It was only
00:40:17
possible because I had a fantastic team.
00:40:19
>> Some of them I promoted and some of them
00:40:21
I recruited.
00:40:22
>> How how did you manage to keep swimming
00:40:24
and prioritize your health and wellbeing
00:40:26
during that
00:40:26
>> because I um sh I shifted from when I
00:40:30
became CEO I was actually living in
00:40:32
Kelburn but later I lived in Oriental
00:40:35
Parade and had a swimming pool across
00:40:36
the road.
00:40:37
>> Yeah. Fryberg. Yeah. If you had to
00:40:40
describe your leadership style back then
00:40:41
in three words, what would it be?
00:40:44
>> Well, one of them would definitely be
00:40:45
driven. F driven, some version of
00:40:47
driven, fastpaced.
00:40:49
Um, but I always made time for um team
00:40:54
bonding sessions like get, you know, it
00:40:57
was very important to me that the team
00:40:58
worked collaboratively, not in little
00:41:00
silos. So, we we also we had fun
00:41:03
together and there was a high degree of
00:41:05
trust, camaraderie. So, I'd also say
00:41:07
camaraderie. I mean, Rodri and I had a
00:41:09
great relationship. Um, he had been my
00:41:12
mentor when I had been working, you
00:41:14
know, for him. And so, it was a lot of
00:41:17
camaraderie as well as um it being
00:41:20
pretty demanding pace.
00:41:22
>> If if you could go back and give 37y old
00:41:24
Theresa um some one piece of advice like
00:41:27
about management or leadership or being
00:41:29
a CEO, what would it what would it be?
00:41:31
>> Oh, it wouldn't be any of those things.
00:41:32
it would be don't neglect your partner
00:41:34
while you're working, you know, so hard
00:41:36
because that was one of the reasons that
00:41:38
not the only reason, but it was
00:41:39
definitely one of the reasons that led
00:41:40
to um my separation from John is just
00:41:43
because that job is relentless and it's
00:41:45
very hard to,
00:41:47
>> you know, it's very hard to be the
00:41:48
partner of someone who's in the media if
00:41:51
if you're a shy person doesn't want to
00:41:52
be in the media, who's working at that
00:41:54
pace and who is switched on all the
00:41:57
time.
00:41:58
>> Yeah. John Savage.
00:42:00
>> Yeah.
00:42:00
>> Yeah.
00:42:02
Are you comfortable talking about him or
00:42:04
>> Well, we was a long relationship. E 22
00:42:06
years.
00:42:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. We're still friends. He
00:42:08
lives in uh the South Island now. I'm
00:42:10
also mates with his partner who's been
00:42:12
with for over 10 years. So, I feel like,
00:42:15
you know, completely resolved. He was a
00:42:17
friend before we were partners. He
00:42:19
became a friend afterwards. Uh and yeah,
00:42:23
I'm
00:42:24
I haven't repartnered since, not in any
00:42:26
sort of permanent way. And that's that's
00:42:30
interesting too. That's um you know it's
00:42:33
really it's I I think I'm still quite a
00:42:35
handful for a a man because I don't need
00:42:37
anything. I don't need emotional
00:42:39
support. I don't need funding. I don't
00:42:41
need anything. Actually, there's one
00:42:43
thing I do need. I can't cook. So, you
00:42:45
know, my food bag was a great joy to set
00:42:48
up.
00:42:49
>> Have you But there's um there's a
00:42:52
distinct difference between being alone
00:42:53
and being lonely.
00:42:54
>> Oh, yeah. I'm never lonely. Never. I've
00:42:56
got such great friends and close to my
00:42:58
family and
00:42:59
>> yeah, I've got my wonderful dog Ollie.
00:43:01
Who knew? All my life was a cat person
00:43:03
and then at 61 I became a dog person.
00:43:06
>> Waring dogs are like having like a child
00:43:08
that never grows up and does anything to
00:43:10
piss you off ever.
00:43:11
>> They're so they love you all the time.
00:43:14
>> Yeah.
00:43:14
>> I I found a quote from you talking about
00:43:16
um John Savage. Um it's it's wonderful
00:43:19
words. I think his support of me in the
00:43:22
22 years we'd been together was without
00:43:24
president in terms of the support I'd
00:43:26
ever seen any other woman receive. It's
00:43:28
a beautiful quote.
00:43:29
>> Yeah, it it's true. He was um he was
00:43:32
wonderful and that in a way when it when
00:43:35
it stopped working for him
00:43:37
I we we had a very non-accrimonious
00:43:40
split because I think that he had given
00:43:43
me a lot and if and in the end you want
00:43:45
the person you're with to be happy and
00:43:46
if they're not happy well then they have
00:43:48
to do something about that. So yeah,
00:43:51
actually what happened was the turmoil
00:43:53
at telecom happened very soon on the
00:43:55
heels of that. So I really got swept up
00:43:57
and having to deal with um the
00:44:00
government reeregulating
00:44:01
telecommunications etc. So it wasn't
00:44:03
really until after I left telecom that I
00:44:06
was that point I was single and jobless
00:44:09
and everyone else was going on with
00:44:10
their life. At that point I was probably
00:44:12
the most distressed. I wasn't burnt out
00:44:14
but I was lonely and really unsure what
00:44:17
I wanted to do with the rest of my life.
00:44:18
So that was the that was a more
00:44:19
difficult period. A couple of years
00:44:21
later was more difficult.
00:44:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. I want to get to that
00:44:24
because I've got got that here. Uh 2005
00:44:26
to 2009 being what you describe as the
00:44:28
most difficult period of your life. But
00:44:29
I've just got a couple more telecom.
00:44:31
>> Sure. Sure.
00:44:31
>> Um Oh, and yeah, you were there for a
00:44:34
long time. Eh, eight years
00:44:37
>> as CEO, but I was at Telecom for 13
00:44:39
years. Yeah.
00:44:40
>> But um 8 years as CEO of a huge company
00:44:42
like that. It's a big time, right?
00:44:44
>> It's it's it's Yes, it was long enough.
00:44:47
like I had um it was about the time I
00:44:49
always thought that I would leave but I
00:44:50
didn't think I would leave in the in the
00:44:52
face of the the tumult and the do you
00:44:55
remember the messenger who passed the
00:44:58
cabinet paper to his mate who worked at
00:45:00
telecom and then they had the inquiry
00:45:02
into that and uh only those listening
00:45:05
over the age of 50 are going to remember
00:45:06
this but it was I remember at the time
00:45:09
thinking I'm so I mean I was very
00:45:12
stressed of course but so pleased that I
00:45:16
lived in a country where public
00:45:18
officials were not corrupt,
00:45:20
>> you know, that that um I was confident
00:45:23
that the truth would come out, which it
00:45:24
did,
00:45:25
>> and that and then that was, you know, no
00:45:28
one remembers about it now because in
00:45:29
fact, at the end of the day, what it
00:45:31
looked like was what it was. But, you
00:45:33
know, another situation in another
00:45:36
country where you could have, you know,
00:45:39
behaviors that weren't exemplary, you
00:45:42
would really be exposed to the CEO.
00:45:45
I heard you on another podcast. It may
00:45:47
have been um the Bruce Cotal one,
00:45:48
leaders getting coffee or the Simon
00:45:50
Bridges one, generally famous, but um
00:45:52
and I'll I'll completely botch up your
00:45:53
quote, but hopefully you know what I'm
00:45:54
talking about.
00:45:55
>> The the quote you gave was um something
00:45:57
like um everyone in their life at some
00:45:59
random point will experience like a
00:46:01
stroke of good luck or good fortune
00:46:03
without reason and something terrible
00:46:05
that's going to happen to you. That's al
00:46:06
what am what am I trying to say?
00:46:08
>> Oh yeah, I agree with that. I think that
00:46:10
all of us at some point have experienced
00:46:14
both. I I I actually talked about this
00:46:16
in my 50th a long time ago, which is I
00:46:18
do believe over the course of a life,
00:46:20
especially a long life, you get to play
00:46:22
every part on the stage.
00:46:24
>> You get to play the triumph, you get to
00:46:26
play the victim, you get to, you know,
00:46:28
play the decider, you get to play the
00:46:30
chosen. But in particular, I believe
00:46:33
that we all um will be given an
00:46:35
opportunity to walk through a portal to
00:46:37
something that is even more is
00:46:39
marvelous. You know, we that we could
00:46:41
never have seen that that would happen.
00:46:44
And we also get a situation where either
00:46:47
through our own bad luck or our own bad
00:46:49
judgment or some justosition of things,
00:46:52
we get treated diff with uh unfairly or
00:46:54
we get treated in a way that's very
00:46:56
distressing or someone close to us badly
00:46:58
lets us down or betrays us. And how we
00:47:01
are in the first and the second is is is
00:47:04
is h is a way in a way how you build
00:47:07
your character. Like what happens when
00:47:09
you're at the top of the game and you're
00:47:10
in triumph and what happens when you're
00:47:12
under the wheel and under pressure. And
00:47:14
I I sometimes finish that quote by
00:47:17
saying if you want to live in New
00:47:18
Zealand, you have to try and be your
00:47:20
best self in both those situations
00:47:22
because this is not a country where you
00:47:23
can escape
00:47:25
>> whatever you've done. You you you live
00:47:27
with it. And um if you treat people
00:47:30
differently on the way up than on the
00:47:31
way down,
00:47:32
>> you find they become your next boss or
00:47:34
they become your brother-in-law or you
00:47:36
know it's very difficult to live in New
00:47:37
Zealand unless you take the long view
00:47:39
and you act with utmost graciousness.
00:47:42
>> Yeah, that when I heard you say that it
00:47:43
was like a aha moment for me. It made
00:47:45
perfect sense. What would those two
00:47:47
things be for you? Is there anything
00:47:48
that springs to mind? I do think that um
00:47:50
well a couple of things on the the the
00:47:53
sort of amazing opportunity uh well
00:47:56
first of all becoming CEO of telecom you
00:47:57
know that that was an amazing
00:47:59
opportunity that was a a portal into a
00:48:02
global world into you know having such
00:48:06
resources and being at the you know
00:48:08
being at the seat of history like that
00:48:10
was and then um when Celia Robinson had
00:48:13
the idea to set up my food bag and um I
00:48:17
I joined went to her in that that was
00:48:19
another big portal. Now that came
00:48:21
earlier actually when I had written my
00:48:22
book and she came to I was living in
00:48:24
Willington at the time. She came to the
00:48:26
last in those days a publisher paid for
00:48:28
a 90-day book tour show and we were in
00:48:30
the Mccure Hotel Oakland not a place
00:48:32
I've been since I think it's a different
00:48:33
hotel now. She came up to me at the end
00:48:34
of that and she said would I mentor her
00:48:36
and her husband James in the opeling
00:48:38
business I said yes. So that was a
00:48:40
portal because then I realized how good
00:48:42
they were. what fantastic entrepreneurs
00:48:43
they were and when they sold that
00:48:46
business of the next business I went in
00:48:48
with them. So that was that was a portal
00:48:50
of something. This young woman in her
00:48:52
20ies wearing, you know, just very
00:48:54
normal clothes um speaking very fast and
00:48:57
obviously very enthusiastic, but
00:49:00
>> you know to to oh she's now very good
00:49:03
friend. She was just wonderful last year
00:49:04
when I was in hospital. She's a
00:49:06
wonderful person. She's every bit the
00:49:07
real deal that she say she seems.
00:49:09
Anyway, um so that was another portal as
00:49:12
well. another moment of saying yes which
00:49:15
led to something amazing. In terms of
00:49:18
sort of difficult things, I I definitely
00:49:20
think that um my uh my six months of
00:49:23
last year physically were a very
00:49:26
difficult period. I wasn't burnt out,
00:49:28
but I had uh I couldn't get out of bed.
00:49:31
I was in agony with my back and
00:49:36
I couldn't I I had to go to get scanned
00:49:38
and I literally screamed standing on the
00:49:41
scanner. I could not I could not
00:49:43
straighten my legs, stand on the scanner
00:49:45
without screaming in pain.
00:49:47
And then I had back surgery, but because
00:49:52
I hadn't been able to walk, I'd been
00:49:54
crawling. I'd crawled outside either to
00:49:56
get myself to the scanning or something
00:49:58
and I got a life-threatening leg
00:50:00
infection
00:50:01
and I had to go to Oakland Hospital for
00:50:04
8 days on introvenous IV. It was over my
00:50:06
knee, which is a problem. And uh I was
00:50:10
really struggling. I came home on or
00:50:12
antibiotics and then quite soon after
00:50:14
that I fell. I had a bad fall and I had
00:50:16
all these things happen on top of each
00:50:18
other. So for a long time I was
00:50:20
physically you know really um not well
00:50:24
and so that was that was a really like
00:50:28
you would say well any one of these
00:50:31
three things is bad and they've all
00:50:33
happened to me sequentially over 3
00:50:35
months. So, that was a really a very
00:50:37
difficult
00:50:39
um thing for me to deal with because it
00:50:41
was like I had a lot going on and it's
00:50:43
like I don't really do well with sort of
00:50:46
physical pain. I got a low tolerance of
00:50:48
physical pain.
00:50:51
>> You do you think it's your body's way of
00:50:52
telling you to back off for a minute?
00:50:54
>> I decided it was
00:50:56
>> I decided I I wasn't burnt out, but I
00:50:58
thought to myself, "Oh my goodness."
00:51:01
>> You know, in in my 50s, I didn't really
00:51:03
heat it. I just keep going and in my 60s
00:51:06
I can't. So yes, I took it as I took it
00:51:08
as that. I took it as that cuz in my 50s
00:51:11
I was um you know working in my food bag
00:51:15
going to Sydney for that then going to
00:51:16
Wellington to cheer the SBCA cuz we were
00:51:18
on the one SPCA project bringing all the
00:51:20
SBAs together then going back to Oakland
00:51:22
and I'd say to my nephew who lived with
00:51:23
me okay cuz he was cooking my food back
00:51:26
for me. Right. I'm I'm having I'm home
00:51:27
in Oakland tonight for dinner and then
00:51:29
tomorrow I'm flying to Sydney and then
00:51:31
next day I'm flying to Melbourne to Cher
00:51:32
Australia and then I'm flying to
00:51:33
Wellington and then I'm back I'll be
00:51:34
back at the end of the week and I did
00:51:36
that for months. So that that led to
00:51:38
burnout in my 50s
00:51:40
>> and then my life isn't that crazy now
00:51:42
but yes I did take last year's problems
00:51:44
as a sign that I needed to to um
00:51:48
>> yeah
00:51:50
move at my own pace like have less
00:51:52
external commitments. I needed to rock
00:51:54
up and do something at a certain time.
00:51:57
>> Did you take it as a sign? I mean, you
00:51:59
came here from Queenstown. You're
00:52:01
squeezing into Queenstown was fun.
00:52:04
Queenstown was fun. Queenstown wasn't
00:52:06
work.
00:52:06
>> You just have to like, I suppose,
00:52:07
reasset reassess your own personal
00:52:09
limits of
00:52:10
>> True, true.
00:52:11
>> I worry about you, DMT. You're doing a
00:52:14
lot.
00:52:14
>> Have you been talking to Chris before
00:52:15
this podcast, Don?
00:52:17
>> No, no, I haven't. Hey. Um, oh, so in
00:52:19
your final year of telecom, you you were
00:52:21
part of the um part of the team that
00:52:23
sold yellow pages for like $2.2 billion.
00:52:26
>> Yes. High point.
00:52:27
>> Crazy amount of money back. Crazy amount
00:52:29
of money now, but crazy amount of money
00:52:30
back then.
00:52:31
>> And you um Yes. So, yeah. What was the
00:52:33
thinking behind that?
00:52:34
>> Well, that was um so Maka Bogski was the
00:52:39
CFO who led that transaction who then
00:52:41
went on to be the CEO of Infrretell and
00:52:43
just did
00:52:44
>> incredible job with that company over 10
00:52:46
years. And the executive sponsor of
00:52:48
yellow pages was Mark the Beast who came
00:52:50
back as chair of telecom has been chair
00:52:53
of many other companies in New Zealand.
00:52:54
And Simon Muta was the chief operating
00:52:57
officer and um then became CEO of
00:52:59
Oakland airport and then CEO of telecom.
00:53:02
By then it was Spark. Well, he changed
00:53:03
name to Spark actually.
00:53:05
>> We basically said well look we're all we
00:53:07
get this and we're using as a doors stop
00:53:09
like we're all googling for search. This
00:53:12
is way back you know this is like 200
00:53:15
200 at six. And so these companies are
00:53:20
selling all around the world at crazy
00:53:21
valuations. We should be able to sell
00:53:23
ours at a crazy valuation. Um and so we
00:53:28
did. We did. Marco led that and um yeah,
00:53:31
it was uh it was it was it was a huge
00:53:33
amount of money. In fact, after that, I
00:53:35
visited New York. It wasn't for work. It
00:53:37
was personal. And and um some of the
00:53:40
people I was with in the finance
00:53:41
industry were like, "Yeah, that was the
00:53:43
high point. That was the high point."
00:53:44
After that, people started to stop using
00:53:48
yellow pages type things and valuations
00:53:50
declined. Yeah.
00:53:52
>> Oh, yeah. Cuz I remember a time for a
00:53:53
couple of years where they do the the
00:53:55
drop off deliveries in plastic bags with
00:53:57
a knot on the top and they'd sit on
00:53:58
people's letter boxes for weeks.
00:53:59
>> Yes. That's right. That's right.
00:54:05
>> You should be an investment banker.
00:54:08
The point was to see that coming before
00:54:10
it happened. We were at the T. We saw
00:54:13
that coming before that actually
00:54:15
happened.
00:54:16
>> Do you when you do a deal of that
00:54:18
magnitude like do do you feel bad like
00:54:20
you know you're selling a lemon or is it
00:54:21
not a lemon at that point?
00:54:22
>> No, because it's just our view versus
00:54:25
another person's view. No one always
00:54:28
gets it right.
00:54:29
>> But our view was that and it was it was
00:54:31
a the team did a really good job in the
00:54:33
process. There were several bidders. The
00:54:34
price was so high because there's more
00:54:36
than one person who wanted it. There
00:54:37
were three people who wanted it
00:54:39
>> trying to trying to get it. Well, it's
00:54:41
just their view of the potential versus
00:54:43
the seller. You never know for sure in
00:54:44
business that something's 11 because you
00:54:46
and I don't know what's going to happen
00:54:48
tomorrow, let alone in a couple of years
00:54:50
time.
00:54:52
>> Yeah, that's true. Well, congratulations
00:54:54
on that. That's awesome. Well, when when
00:54:56
the deal like that gets signed, like
00:54:58
what do you like what do you do?
00:55:00
>> I'm sure we did celebrate. I I can't
00:55:02
remember now. Um we're probably relieved
00:55:04
cuz after a deal like that, you're
00:55:05
really tired. Like, but I wasn't the one
00:55:07
physically working on it, but obviously,
00:55:08
you know, it's coming. the board's
00:55:10
approving it, it's coming to me, we're
00:55:11
saying, "Yep, let's let's go to the next
00:55:13
stage," etc. So, yeah. No, it was it was
00:55:15
satisfying later, but satisfying later
00:55:18
because if we hadn't done it then,
00:55:20
>> would have been Yeah. practically
00:55:21
worthless.
00:55:21
>> Well, Australia, Telra, hung on for way
00:55:24
longer than we did.
00:55:25
>> Yeah.
00:55:26
>> Um, a job like that, the telecom CEO,
00:55:28
comes with a massive amount of public
00:55:30
scrutiny. When when you're under like
00:55:32
intense scrutiny, like, and you're on
00:55:33
the news every night or you're on the
00:55:34
paper in the morning, what did you learn
00:55:36
about yourself?
00:55:39
Ah,
00:55:41
well, I'm a very open, transparent
00:55:44
person and my comm's team never really
00:55:46
um gave me messaging for what I should
00:55:48
say. They always trying to give me for
00:55:50
what I shouldn't say because I, you
00:55:51
know, I'm like late to say something
00:55:54
that I'm, you know, saying too early cuz
00:55:56
we're still just thinking about it. But
00:55:58
anyway, um, what did I learn?
00:56:03
It's hard to go at that pace forever.
00:56:04
you know, CEOs have a natural lifespan
00:56:08
because it's very hard to go at that
00:56:09
pace. It's relentless and I think it's
00:56:10
got probably even it's probably got even
00:56:12
more relentless. I learned that the
00:56:14
Aussie media is really tough. Really,
00:56:16
really tough.
00:56:18
>> Uh I learned that some journalists you
00:56:21
can trust and some you can't. I learned
00:56:24
that you uh my natural tendency is to
00:56:27
say too much like just be shorter, be
00:56:29
pathier, be clearer. Uh
00:56:31
>> sound bites.
00:56:33
>> Yeah. Um I don't tend to speak as much
00:56:35
jargon now as I did then because that
00:56:37
industry is full of jargon be it would
00:56:39
be not you know not make sense to you
00:56:41
know lay lay people but now if I give an
00:56:45
interview I'm more likely to be talking
00:56:46
about might be diversity in business or
00:56:49
it might be woman entrepreneurs I'm I'm
00:56:51
not I'm not as um I'm likely to be using
00:56:54
language that more people will will
00:56:55
resonate with
00:56:57
>> you telecom was a big company I actually
00:56:59
had one of your former employees uh
00:57:01
Chris Quinn who's co now in for a Last
00:57:04
week he told me when he started there
00:57:06
was like 25,000 staff or something.
00:57:08
>> Was it that many? Well um
00:57:11
>> uh Chris ran Geni. We bought computer
00:57:14
land and Geni and decided to keep the
00:57:17
name GI not to call it telecom and he
00:57:19
ran that very successfully for many
00:57:21
years before he left telecommunications
00:57:23
and eventually went into you know the
00:57:25
food industry. Uh did he tell the his
00:57:28
his story about his wife rang him one
00:57:31
night and said will you be home for
00:57:33
dinner? He said, "Oh, I don't think so.
00:57:34
I'm in LA."
00:57:37
>> No, that's a great yarn. Wow.
00:57:40
>> So, that's how hard he worked. Yes.
00:57:42
Really on the go.
00:57:44
>> We went to work one morning and then
00:57:45
caught a 12 hours.
00:57:48
>> He left that one out. I must have asked
00:57:50
the wrong question. You got to ask the
00:57:51
right questions to get the right
00:57:52
answers.
00:57:53
>> The wrong questions. Yeah.
00:57:54
>> But is it weird being in that role? Are
00:57:56
you aware that people are sucking up to
00:57:57
you when you're in that role?
00:57:59
>> Yes, to some extent. I I but I had some
00:58:03
really good truth tellers. Like I'm
00:58:07
>> Yeah, I'm very open. I'm quite open to
00:58:10
feedback and of people I respect and my
00:58:13
executive team were pretty much all
00:58:15
truth tellers. But Philip King is still
00:58:18
a great mate. He's like very much a sort
00:58:20
of a listen TJ, this is how it is and we
00:58:23
should be doing this and that and so I
00:58:25
didn't surround myself with acolytes.
00:58:27
it, you know, being um being telling me
00:58:31
what I wanted to hear wasn't wasn't how
00:58:34
you got promoted at telecom.
00:58:35
>> But how do you know if someone's telling
00:58:37
you what you want to hear versus
00:58:38
>> they're often telling me things I don't
00:58:40
want to hear?
00:58:44
Such a good answer. And um what what's
00:58:47
it like leaving after after nine years?
00:58:49
I I had um Sir Rodri on the podcast uh
00:58:52
at the beginning of the year and so he
00:58:54
founded Zero and he tal he talked about
00:58:55
the day um in quite a poant way the day
00:58:58
that he he left and he packed up his box
00:58:59
of trinkets and all that on the street
00:59:01
and
00:59:01
>> suddenly he he realized he didn't know
00:59:03
who he was. All all his friends were his
00:59:05
were his co-workers and he had to sort
00:59:07
of rebuild his identity.
00:59:08
>> Yeah, I felt a bit the same um because
00:59:12
there had been so much controversy in
00:59:14
the last couple of years. I thought I
00:59:15
might actually leave New Zealand and I
00:59:16
went overseas for a year holidayed. I
00:59:18
interviewed various jobs and I came back
00:59:21
and I thought, you know what, I love
00:59:22
this country. I really identify with
00:59:25
being a Kiwi and where else can I swim
00:59:28
in the harbor in the morning and ride my
00:59:29
horse in the afternoon. This is
00:59:31
Wellington. And you know, catch a flight
00:59:33
to Queenstown, then ski. It's just like,
00:59:35
so I'm going to try and create a life
00:59:37
here. I I don't want a full-time job
00:59:40
again. I want a portfolio life. That's
00:59:42
the fashionable word for it. on a bit
00:59:44
more flexibility. Uh how can I create
00:59:46
that sort of life and live in New
00:59:48
Zealand? So yeah, but it was a very
00:59:50
difficult period because everyone else
00:59:52
carries on as I mentioned before my best
00:59:54
friend was Margaret Ducas and she was a
00:59:55
patent attorney
00:59:57
>> and uh she was she cooked for me through
00:59:59
that period. She's a very good cook. She
01:00:00
was nothing to do with telecom so she
01:00:02
was great support because my telecom
01:00:04
mates were busy doing you know carrying
01:00:05
on doing their thing but she got me
01:00:08
quite quickly. Two things happened that
01:00:10
got me going again. The first was
01:00:12
Margaret said cuz I had given money to
01:00:15
the SPCA
01:00:16
since my first paycheck. From my first
01:00:18
paycheck, I put in place direct debits
01:00:21
to various charities, women's charities
01:00:23
and to SPCA. And she knew that and she
01:00:24
was on the board. And she took me up to
01:00:27
the SPCA in New Town, the old shelter,
01:00:30
and it was run down and small and
01:00:33
cramped. And she said, "We we we've got
01:00:35
to build something better for the
01:00:36
animals." and she took me up to the old
01:00:37
fever hospital which was you know
01:00:40
derelct and she said this is our vision
01:00:43
and so she and I worked tirelessly for
01:00:45
many months getting together we gave
01:00:47
some money to it of course qual money
01:00:49
and we did a fundraising dinner we got
01:00:50
more people involved and I worked
01:00:52
full-time on that for about 6 months and
01:00:54
so I got out of feeling any sort of like
01:00:57
sorry for myself and into doing
01:00:58
something for somebody else in this case
01:01:01
for the animals which um so that was the
01:01:03
first thing that happened I got a new
01:01:05
focus I could very I realized quite
01:01:07
quickly that the target market was
01:01:09
people like me who had animals and not
01:01:11
children for fundraising and really sort
01:01:13
of honed on that and we um we we did a
01:01:17
very successful project. It's a longer
01:01:19
story than that which I'm going to write
01:01:20
about at some point but um
01:01:22
>> so anyway so that project
01:01:24
>> and then the second thing that happened
01:01:26
is that Craig Norgate who his early
01:01:28
death such a loss to New Zealand just
01:01:30
you know the brains behind one of the
01:01:32
brains behind Fonta the the driver
01:01:34
behind the creation of Fonta he rang me
01:01:36
and said we want to do a Fonta for world
01:01:37
will you come and share the company and
01:01:39
I said yes so I did that for a few years
01:01:41
so the combination of and Mark Wilson
01:01:43
asked you know will you join the AI
01:01:45
board in Melbourne we need to um you to
01:01:48
enhance the quality of that board. So
01:01:50
those three things happened quite
01:01:51
quickly within about 12 months of me
01:01:55
certainly within a few months of me back
01:01:56
in New Zealand within 12 15 months
01:01:58
leaving telecom. So I got going again on
01:01:59
the the commercial side and insurance
01:02:02
because I'd worked national which before
01:02:04
on the agriculture which I didn't know
01:02:06
anything about really agriculture and I'
01:02:08
I made we we didn't succeed in the end
01:02:10
but I did make some lifelong friends and
01:02:12
on the philanthropic side. So that that
01:02:15
was a really and then I I wrote my book
01:02:18
and finished writing my book and Celia
01:02:20
turned up and that got me going on
01:02:21
entrepreneurial side. So
01:02:23
>> it really was a case of you know one
01:02:24
door had closed and then several doors
01:02:27
opened. Uh but it was a very stressful
01:02:30
period because apart from all of that so
01:02:32
John and I had separated so you know
01:02:34
this 2005 to 2009 that period two by by
01:02:37
two by 210 I was sort of better sorted
01:02:39
but in that period so John and I
01:02:41
separated had to do a split. So, you
01:02:43
know, you got to split your money and
01:02:45
everything and but my apartment that I'd
01:02:47
been left with and that was he didn't
01:02:50
want it and I did. It was a leaky
01:02:52
building.
01:02:53
>> Oh.
01:02:53
>> So, my biggest asset was a leaky
01:02:55
building. And I just want to mention
01:02:57
about it was Bay Point um the body
01:02:59
corporate. We had a c we had to um we
01:03:02
were we couldn't settle. We had to we
01:03:05
thought we have to go to court. We had a
01:03:07
celebratory dinner. We booked out this
01:03:09
cafe before the court hearing of our um
01:03:14
Biki Apartments
01:03:17
and we celebrated that we'd hung
01:03:19
together as a body corporate and that
01:03:22
you know we basically projected that we
01:03:25
were going to be successful and the next
01:03:26
day on the steps of the court in
01:03:29
Wellington we settled the other side
01:03:31
said okay we're not going to go into
01:03:33
court we're going to settle so again my
01:03:37
slightly polyanorish
01:03:40
intend the best outcome.
01:03:43
>> Um, you don't you got to have your wits
01:03:45
about you, but it's like miracles can
01:03:47
happen that you don't see. And one of
01:03:50
the people that I've been supporting for
01:03:51
a long time, a woman called Sister Ze,
01:03:53
who's a Christian woman in Pakistan who
01:03:56
teaches girls to read and write. And she
01:03:59
won the Global Vaky Teacher Prize two
01:04:01
years ago, a million dollars to fund her
01:04:03
work. I wake up one morning, there's a
01:04:04
picture of her with Justinda at the
01:04:06
awards in France. And I'm like, what
01:04:08
just happened? This is a this is a girl
01:04:10
who couldn't speak English, who had she
01:04:13
had very supportive family, but um
01:04:15
they've got no money. And you know, just
01:04:18
her own determination and then enrolling
01:04:20
a few supporters like me creates
01:04:21
something like that. So you just never
01:04:24
forget the power of what one person can
01:04:26
achieve if they can collect a group of
01:04:28
people around them.
01:04:30
>> After the telecom gig for so many years,
01:04:33
were you quite financially secure? I'm
01:04:34
sure it pay pays nothing compared to
01:04:36
what CEOs get now. What were you getting
01:04:38
in there last year?
01:04:39
>> I actually I actually don't remember but
01:04:41
you know you'll be able to Google it.
01:04:42
It'll be in that last in that last it'll
01:04:44
be in that last AGM uh annual report. Um
01:04:47
no I wasn't because of the split with
01:04:49
John. Uh so we divided everything by
01:04:52
half and and of course you know so it's
01:04:56
just me. So at that point I wasn't. So
01:04:58
obviously AA board um or partners board
01:05:00
were paid gigs
01:05:02
>> so I did need to keep earning at that
01:05:04
point. Yeah, because I had the the
01:05:06
apartment in Wellington and the
01:05:08
wonderful beach house at Wahhee Beach
01:05:10
and a small villa in Queenstown.
01:05:13
>> Yeah. All of which I've still No, I
01:05:14
haven't got the apartment in Wellington
01:05:15
now because I left Wellington, but the
01:05:16
other two I've still got.
01:05:17
>> Jeez. Why he Beach is um is a who's who
01:05:19
of New Zealand, isn't it? You mentioned
01:05:21
Helen Clark there before and you were
01:05:23
there and uh Warren Gatland and Sir
01:05:25
Wayne Smith.
01:05:26
>> Yes. And John Cerwin and JK and um Grant
01:05:30
Fox and it's like a rugby central and
01:05:32
it's sort of like Yeah. Well, it's a
01:05:34
wonderful place. It's a wonderful place.
01:05:36
It's so relaxing and it's just I just
01:05:39
love the Bay of Plenty. It's a wonderful
01:05:40
area.
01:05:41
>> And do you live just next door to your
01:05:42
mom?
01:05:43
>> Well, I did, but unfortunately mom had a
01:05:45
stroke and then she had an accident with
01:05:47
her mobility scooter. She can't. So, by
01:05:49
now last year, she couldn't live alone
01:05:51
anymore. So, she now lives at Hington
01:05:52
House in Whei. And we, my sisters and I
01:05:56
are on a sort of a roster that one of us
01:05:58
is there each day to see to see her.
01:06:01
Yeah. M
01:06:03
>> how was she?
01:06:04
>> Well, I I spent my last week um last I
01:06:08
hadn't seen her for about a week and we
01:06:10
but uh the last time I saw her, we took
01:06:14
a video of her motoring from her room
01:06:16
with her walker to to dinner or lunch
01:06:18
actually. So, yeah, she she had been in
01:06:21
hospital this year, but she's better
01:06:23
now.
01:06:23
>> Yeah. It seems like you guys are are
01:06:25
very close.
01:06:26
>> Yeah.
01:06:27
>> Yeah. And and your dad? Yes. So, John
01:06:29
and Marian? Yes.
01:06:31
>> So, you lost your dad during co How we
01:06:33
How we doing?
01:06:33
>> I'm good. It's It's okay. Yeah, we're
01:06:35
okay.
01:06:35
>> We're 3:00. What time are we? Oh, 2:30.
01:06:37
>> It's 2:30. You've got time. What time?
01:06:39
>> Yeah, my watch is
01:06:43
my watch. I know how to adjust it. It's
01:06:45
not telling the right time
01:06:47
>> because I can't adjust it. I got to get
01:06:49
someone to adjust it for me.
01:06:50
>> Wait. So, so it's actually 2:27 p.m.
01:06:52
now. And your watch says
01:06:54
>> 12:15. It's 2 hours and 12 MINUTES
01:06:57
WRONG.
01:06:59
OH, SO YOU JUST IMMEDIATELY DO THE
01:07:00
MENTAL.
01:07:01
>> YEAH.
01:07:01
>> What sort is it? Is that a Roly?
01:07:03
>> No, no, no. It's a Versace. Versace. I
01:07:06
was walking down I was walking down
01:07:08
Medic one day and I went into Versace to
01:07:10
look at their clothes and I love this
01:07:11
watch. I didn't think about the fact,
01:07:13
you know, Versace watches are not that
01:07:15
common and um bought it. Had it ever
01:07:17
since. So,
01:07:18
>> is it is it broken or you just don't
01:07:19
know how to reset it?
01:07:20
>> No, I don't know HOW TO RESET THIS.
01:07:22
>> THIS MIGHT BE THE WILDEST story I've had
01:07:24
on the podcast. That's crazy. Well, it
01:07:26
was an hour wrong. Whatever it was, it
01:07:29
was it's 12 minutes wrong is cuz it's
01:07:31
gone a bit slow. But before that, it was
01:07:34
just an hour wrong. And I thought I'll
01:07:35
just wait cuz someone will fix that.
01:07:37
Instead of making But instead of making
01:07:39
it right, it made it 2 hours wrong.
01:07:43
I haven't done anything about it. I
01:07:45
hardly wear it.
01:07:46
>> Can't you can't you just go to a Mr.
01:07:48
Minute in the mall or something?
01:07:49
PROBABLY.
01:07:53
>> Is this is this is this what you're like
01:07:55
as a person in other areas of your life?
01:07:56
If there's little things at the house
01:07:57
that sort of break or you just crack on
01:08:01
with it,
01:08:02
>> I outsource all of that sort of stuff.
01:08:04
>> Oh, yeah. I'm quite eccentric,
01:08:11
>> but I but you know, I kept this watch
01:08:13
because I did have a more expensive
01:08:14
watch, not a Rolex. And when I was in
01:08:17
Argentina, I was mugged.
01:08:18
>> Oh wow.
01:08:19
>> And they they came behind me, pushed me
01:08:21
over, took the watch. I was with my
01:08:24
sister and um this this person on the
01:08:27
store who could speak English saw it and
01:08:28
he said, "I'll call the cops." The cops
01:08:30
came. They couldn't speak Spanish. They
01:08:31
couldn't speak English. They asked us to
01:08:32
get in the car. The car had no back
01:08:34
seat. I look at my sister and I go,
01:08:37
"What the hell? Have we done the right
01:08:38
thing here? Are these cops or have we
01:08:39
now are we now in a lot of trouble?" So
01:08:43
I'm like, "This is a nice watch, but
01:08:45
this is not a seriously expensive
01:08:47
watch." And I'm like, "I would never
01:08:49
have a Rolex."
01:08:50
>> Yeah. And Muggers would probably give it
01:08:52
back. Oh,
01:08:53
>> it's a faulty watch.
01:08:54
>> They wouldn't be able to resell it
01:08:55
because it's not really a watch brand.
01:08:57
It's really a fashion brand. That that
01:08:59
one day in the shop had some watches.
01:09:01
>> Is that Is that traumatic for you that
01:09:02
picking? Yeah, that was really traumatic
01:09:04
cuz id loved I'd loved um I'd been on a
01:09:07
cruise in Antarctica with my sister
01:09:09
which was amazing and I loved Brunis
01:09:11
Aries. We've been there a couple of days
01:09:12
and it was fantastic and this was this
01:09:14
was very upset. It was my fault though.
01:09:15
I shouldn't have left the hotel with any
01:09:17
sort of watch on. Just
01:09:19
>> you know basic beginner era. So it's a
01:09:21
it's a beautiful place but don't wear a
01:09:23
nice watch cuz I'm fair. I obviously not
01:09:25
part of that world. I obviously don't
01:09:27
speak Spanish.
01:09:28
>> Um what did you like about BA? Are you
01:09:30
are you are you a steak eater? Um well I
01:09:33
like a nice steak but um I've been in
01:09:35
Argentina twice. The first time I went
01:09:36
there I got totally constipated cuz it
01:09:38
was meat for breakfast. We were riding
01:09:39
polo ponies cross country and it was
01:09:41
like meat for breakfast, meat for lunch,
01:09:43
meat for dinner. So like oh no please I
01:09:45
can't have meat for breakfast. I like a
01:09:46
good steak once a week but not as a way
01:09:49
of life. Now have you not been to their
01:09:51
fantastic cemetery the cemetery?
01:09:54
>> I have where um whereita is Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:57
She is. and just the energy of the
01:09:59
place. I really I really liked it until
01:10:02
I got mugged.
01:10:02
>> I loved it. And but you you're not
01:10:04
really much of a drinker. Did you get
01:10:05
into the Malbecks or
01:10:06
>> No, no, no, I don't drink. No, not at
01:10:08
all.
01:10:08
>> I don't like it. No.
01:10:09
>> And it's good. I can always just drive.
01:10:11
I don't have to worry about
01:10:12
>> Yeah, that's true.
01:10:12
>> about um getting myself around.
01:10:14
>> That's true. So, um I've got a nice
01:10:17
photo here. This is you with your mom
01:10:18
and your dad.
01:10:19
>> Yes. That's taken the mom and dad's
01:10:20
house at Wahhe Beach. After dad nearly
01:10:22
died, they were living in a Hopi. Mom
01:10:24
and I decided that they had to be closer
01:10:27
to all of us. And so I had a cottage
01:10:29
there that I've been renting out in
01:10:30
front of my house that I had for 30
01:10:31
years. So I knocked down the cottage and
01:10:34
mom and dad sold their house in Aopi and
01:10:35
we together built this house for them.
01:10:37
And this photo was taken there. And so
01:10:39
dad had a very last happy eight years of
01:10:41
his life there and you know mom's you
01:10:44
know been very happy there and and
01:10:45
really until last year but this house my
01:10:48
sister uses this house now. So it still
01:10:50
looks like that.
01:10:51
>> Yeah. Cuz you lost your dad um during co
01:10:53
>> Yeah. He got diagnosed with bowel cancer
01:10:55
literally in that 48 hour when you had
01:10:58
to just you had to the first lockdown
01:11:00
like
01:11:00
>> so choose your choose your bubble choose
01:11:02
>> choose your bubble choose your area. He
01:11:04
got diagnosed with bowel cancer and he
01:11:05
died about 4 months later.
01:11:07
>> By the time we had his funeral it was
01:11:09
after after lockdown had finished. So we
01:11:12
had a funeral at home for him. It was
01:11:14
lovely.
01:11:14
>> Yeah. So so you you were there with him
01:11:17
in the final
01:11:18
>> Yeah.
01:11:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I was actually not there
01:11:20
the minute he died. He deliberately
01:11:22
chose to die when there was no one else
01:11:24
in the room. My mom had gone to get the
01:11:25
priest and he died. And the next person
01:11:28
to turn up was my younger sister and she
01:11:30
organized the funeral. So I actually
01:11:32
wasn't there but I had been there the
01:11:33
day before or the day or the day before
01:11:35
that.
01:11:36
>> How coherent was he towards the end?
01:11:38
>> Oh, very.
01:11:38
>> Yeah.
01:11:39
>> And until two weeks before his death, he
01:11:40
was still better at me than doing all
01:11:42
the puzzles. Still very articulate, but
01:11:44
he just decided enough was enough and
01:11:46
stopped eating and drinking and sort of
01:11:48
died peacefully.
01:11:50
Can you remember the last sort of
01:11:51
significant conversations you had?
01:11:54
>> Um, I can remember
01:11:58
I know you got some tissues there. I can
01:12:00
remember
01:12:02
he had to go back and forth to hospital
01:12:03
a lot which is one of the reasons after
01:12:05
he died
01:12:07
um the foundation, the Getty Foundation
01:12:09
that I established with my sister, we
01:12:10
bought an ambulance for that part of the
01:12:12
country for other people to use. And in
01:12:13
fact, I've ridden in the Getty ambulance
01:12:15
to hospital since then and have all my
01:12:18
neighbors. But um dad used to go
01:12:20
backwards and forwards to the hospital.
01:12:21
And I remember the last time that he did
01:12:23
that, he came back and Andrew and I were
01:12:25
there and he was holding each of our
01:12:27
hands and he started asking us talking
01:12:29
about property. His property was his
01:12:31
love and he was like talking about what
01:12:34
I might do at the beach or what you just
01:12:36
I just remember that he was like he was
01:12:38
really unwell and he was like wanted to
01:12:39
talk about property.
01:12:41
>> Yeah.
01:12:43
>> He must have must be so proud of you.
01:12:45
>> Oh yeah. I I I He was proud of all his
01:12:47
family. Yeah.
01:12:48
>> Um, but my mother, people would say,
01:12:50
"Well, what does Teresa do?" And she'd
01:12:52
say, "Well, I don't know, but she's very
01:12:53
busy and she's in lots of meetings." So,
01:12:56
it's quite hard to explain. Everyone
01:12:58
knows what a doctor does or a lawyer,
01:13:00
but it's quite hard to explain what a
01:13:02
business executive does.
01:13:03
>> Yeah.
01:13:04
>> I had um Miles Harold from Fonta on the
01:13:06
podcast recently and he he had the most
01:13:08
adorable story. His mom lives near the
01:13:10
airport in Christ Church. So, whenever
01:13:11
he's down there, he goes to visit her
01:13:13
and often stays. He said last time he
01:13:15
stayed he he she knows what what he does
01:13:18
but she doesn't really know like what he
01:13:20
does. Yeah.
01:13:20
>> Um and uh he went to put his shoes on in
01:13:23
the morning to leave after staying the
01:13:24
night cuz he had an early flight and
01:13:25
she'd slipped a $20 note as long as well
01:13:28
as a little note in his shoes.
01:13:32
>> Isn't that adorable?
01:13:33
>> Oh, that is adorable.
01:13:36
>> Yeah. Oh, that's such a special
01:13:37
relationship. How's your mom been since
01:13:39
then?
01:13:40
>> Up and down.
01:13:40
>> Stay together 60 years.
01:13:42
>> Oh, yeah. 60 60 years. 60 years. She Oh,
01:13:44
she's been up and down, but you know,
01:13:46
she carried on and she's welcomed you
01:13:49
lots of great grandchildren as my
01:13:51
sister's children have started having
01:13:52
their own children and yeah, so but the
01:13:56
last year has been difficult with her um
01:13:58
stroke mobility, not being able to drive
01:14:00
anymore, things like that. Aging is
01:14:03
aging is not easy.
01:14:05
>> It's rough, isn't it?
01:14:06
>> Yeah.
01:14:07
>> Yeah. How do you feel about aging?
01:14:10
>> What are you now? 60.
01:14:11
>> I'm 63. Oh, getting that pension soon.
01:14:14
>> Well, don't get me started on that.
01:14:16
Honestly, that's obscene that I should
01:14:19
be getting the pension. It should be
01:14:20
means tested. It's like it is ridiculous
01:14:23
that people with means getting that
01:14:26
pension if we don't sort out national I
01:14:28
mean I'm not at all political. I don't
01:14:30
want to run for office. I'm not
01:14:31
interested. But I do think as a country
01:14:34
if we the people said we have to sort
01:14:37
out national superanuation cuz if we
01:14:39
don't
01:14:40
that that cost of that for the current
01:14:42
scheme means that we are our children
01:14:44
and grandchildren's futures are being
01:14:46
compromised cuz the country can't afford
01:14:47
it. So we need a conversation about it
01:14:51
cuz we need to give people enough notice
01:14:52
of how it's going to change and whether
01:14:54
it's means tested or rage a eligibility
01:14:57
we actually do need to come together and
01:14:59
have a conversation about it.
01:15:03
You're not going to stop working at any
01:15:04
stage, though, are you? I feel like
01:15:05
you're always going to have things on
01:15:06
the go,
01:15:07
>> I think. So, yeah.
01:15:08
>> Yeah.
01:15:09
>> Yeah.
01:15:10
>> Yeah. And why why would Yeah. I don't
01:15:12
know. Why would you stop?
01:15:14
>> Well, I just intend to spend more time
01:15:15
at the beach and less time in
01:15:16
Oakuckland.
01:15:17
>> Yeah.
01:15:18
>> So, my food bag when that opportunity
01:15:19
came along, like how do you know what's
01:15:21
a good opportunity and what's not?
01:15:23
>> Well, I had the utmost respect for James
01:15:25
and Cecilia as entrepreneurs and I knew
01:15:27
she was very missiondriven. wanted to do
01:15:29
something for, you know, working moms,
01:15:30
which is what she was. And Nadia, of
01:15:33
course, had, you know, been fantastic on
01:15:34
Master Chef, clearly resilient and very
01:15:36
talented. But basically, this was after
01:15:39
John had left and he'd been the cook.
01:15:40
And so, I had been, you know, like I
01:15:42
said, I don't cook. So, I had been
01:15:44
buying food and what you could get then
01:15:46
in a prepackaged food to put in the oven
01:15:48
to heat up for dinner was awful. It's a
01:15:50
bit better now.
01:15:51
>> And so, when Cecilia showed me the
01:15:53
business plan, I was like, "This is a
01:15:55
great idea. This is really going to go."
01:15:57
And so I was part of the early trial. My
01:15:59
friends part of the trial. Uh it was it
01:16:02
just it went just it everyone loved it
01:16:05
and you know it was a joyful thing.
01:16:08
People who grow food are happy people.
01:16:09
You know you it's a happy industry to be
01:16:11
part of and we got such good feedback.
01:16:14
>> You know from mothers saying well Nadia
01:16:16
does says it so my children will eat
01:16:18
vegetables. It's not me it's her. Um
01:16:21
people saying you saved my marriage
01:16:22
because we can put healthy food on the
01:16:24
table and still have time as a family.
01:16:25
just just there was so much joy in that
01:16:28
business.
01:16:29
>> Yeah.
01:16:30
>> So So that got sold um and you became
01:16:32
wildly rich from that.
01:16:34
>> Is that a fair thing to say? It gave you
01:16:36
FU money. Have you heard the term FU
01:16:38
money?
01:16:38
>> Yeah, I have.
01:16:39
>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you like that term or no?
01:16:42
>> But it just sort of means you've got you
01:16:44
you know you've got options and choices
01:16:45
and you can do exactly what you want and
01:16:47
say no to exactly what you want. I I I
01:16:49
quite like it. It's an aspiration for
01:16:50
me.
01:16:51
>> Yeah.
01:16:51
>> Um
01:16:53
>> Yeah. Is that a good feeling?
01:16:55
>> It was a good feeling. I immediately
01:16:58
um
01:16:59
gave some of the money away to charity,
01:17:02
set up the foundation,
01:17:03
>> bought the ambulance, bought a vehicle
01:17:05
for the SPCA for the far north.
01:17:08
>> Um
01:17:10
uh renovated property for my sisters or
01:17:14
made sure that my family were all well
01:17:15
situated
01:17:17
>> and then said, "Okay, so you know what
01:17:20
else am I going to do?" and setting up
01:17:22
the it was lockdown actually I had the
01:17:24
idea to fund the chair of entre
01:17:26
entrepreneurship at um Oakland
01:17:28
University
01:17:29
and but I always wanted to keep going
01:17:32
like that wasn't you know that was never
01:17:34
I was never going to really just sort of
01:17:35
stop at that point so when second job
01:17:37
said well we want to do 10 would you
01:17:39
want to come in with us and I said yes
01:17:41
because changing the health care system
01:17:43
for New Zealand is equally as worthy as
01:17:45
you know people eating healthy food so
01:17:48
>> yeah I have carried on that journey with
01:17:50
them but I don't work in that business.
01:17:52
I did work in my food bag some of the
01:17:54
time, but with tend I did learn the
01:17:57
lesson that in my 60s I just I can't do
01:17:59
everything and so I'm not um deeply
01:18:02
involved in the business.
01:18:04
>> What about failures? Are there any
01:18:05
failures that you've been involved with?
01:18:06
>> Yeah, I've um I've invested in companies
01:18:09
that haven't worked and um I I think
01:18:12
it's best if I don't name names, but I
01:18:14
visited a company and the female founder
01:18:16
turned out to be fraudulent. Now that's
01:18:19
there is if you there is a little bit of
01:18:21
stuff in the media about that but I just
01:18:22
don't we're going to talk about it but
01:18:24
anyway so yes I I'm not I'm definitely
01:18:27
anyone who tells you that they every
01:18:28
investment they've ever done has turned
01:18:30
out right is lying because that's just
01:18:32
not how it happens.
01:18:33
>> Yeah.
01:18:34
>> Um I mean partners was a failure. Wool
01:18:37
partners was a failure. We couldn't get
01:18:39
a font for wool up but I don't think
01:18:40
about it as a failure because
01:18:43
>> we did our best. It wasn't the right
01:18:44
time. And no one is more delighted than
01:18:46
me that wool prices are now rocketing
01:18:48
away. That that what we saw that New
01:18:51
Zealand strong wool could get some of
01:18:53
the premium prices that Marino was
01:18:55
getting. It could be used I mean in my
01:18:57
new house at the beach. I've got wool
01:18:59
batting like I I've got wool rugs. It's
01:19:02
like so some of the things that I did
01:19:04
became passions and it it might have
01:19:07
been too early but it was a failure at
01:19:08
the time. So yeah, I've had plenty of
01:19:11
failures but I
01:19:12
>> I don't I reframe it. I don't really
01:19:15
like Kiwis can be hard on people who
01:19:17
failed in the US. It's just that that's
01:19:20
just a learning experience, a growing
01:19:21
edge before you're successful.
01:19:24
>> Yeah. There's that saying, failure is a
01:19:25
stepping stone to success. Um, still
01:19:27
never feels nice when it happens though.
01:19:29
>> No, it doesn't feel nice when it
01:19:30
happens, but if you've done your best
01:19:32
and you had good intention, it's just
01:19:35
you not every post is a winning post.
01:19:37
It's just how life is.
01:19:40
>> October 2022, you became a dame.
01:19:42
>> Yes. How how cool is that?
01:19:44
>> Oh, that was wonderful. That really was
01:19:46
special. My father had passed by then,
01:19:48
but my mom and my sisters went to a
01:19:50
wonderful ceremony at government house
01:19:52
in Oakland. It was truly a lovely
01:19:53
ceremony. And they had the table set up
01:19:56
like this, like round with afternoon
01:19:58
tea, the cupcakes, and cuz my mom is
01:20:01
English, we we all like that. And Cindy,
01:20:03
the governor general, she's great. She
01:20:05
speaks with each person and oh, it was
01:20:08
just wonderful. Wonderful.
01:20:09
>> How long do you know know about it
01:20:11
before and who do you tell? um about 3
01:20:13
months. No one until
01:20:14
>> No one no one or
01:20:15
>> Well well in the end you have to to tell
01:20:17
a few people because you get asked how
01:20:18
many people are you bringing so you have
01:20:20
to organize for your closest to come you
01:20:23
could only have a few people there but
01:20:24
apart from that no one
01:20:26
>> but I know that Dame Joan didn't tell
01:20:27
her husband so she really told not her
01:20:29
husband
01:20:30
>> I did tell I did tell Chris but then
01:20:32
Chris was always going to be coming and
01:20:33
Chris has been the secret keeper of me
01:20:35
for 30 years but yeah but basically no
01:20:37
one else. Yeah, that's so special. It's
01:20:39
such a nice thing for your mom and your
01:20:41
siblings to was lovely.
01:20:43
>> What does it mean to you personally?
01:20:46
>> It feels
01:20:48
it does feel lovely and it feels
01:20:50
sometimes with you like I'm you know
01:20:53
good mates with some of the other dames.
01:20:54
It feels very nice that New Zealand has
01:20:57
recognized women of my generation who've
01:21:00
achieved you know um Paula Rebtock
01:21:03
Sylvia Kartwright uh Theres Walsh Joan
01:21:06
Withers it and some of the sporting
01:21:10
heroes Farah Palmer it it Susan Devoy it
01:21:13
actually does feel nice that um we have
01:21:16
been recognized so yeah it's very
01:21:18
special
01:21:19
>> when you travel to places where you need
01:21:21
to fill in the form do you
01:21:22
>> No that's a problem and I never use it
01:21:24
because I' i've had occasions where I've
01:21:27
been on the phone to a call center and I
01:21:29
have been not been able to access a bank
01:21:31
account or something because my name
01:21:33
apparently is not Theresa Gatting.
01:21:34
Apparently it's Damy Gatting and I'm
01:21:37
like, "Oh no. Oh no, it's not. That's
01:21:40
not my name." So now I've said to Chris,
01:21:42
"Just put it back to Ms. Theresa Gatting
01:21:44
because it's just too difficult." Yeah.
01:21:47
Uh Dame Joan told a story that um when I
01:21:50
had her on the podcast that she's she's
01:21:51
she's used it to get um to get bummed up
01:21:53
the line for something.
01:21:54
>> Oh no.
01:21:55
>> I I haven't actually.
01:21:57
>> You got to lean into it.
01:22:00
>> Well, I I don't say to people, oh, cuz I
01:22:03
like to be introduced as it first off
01:22:05
and then not use. I don't say never call
01:22:07
me Dame. Like I think it's you know that
01:22:09
whole well men always get called sir,
01:22:10
but women not allowed to be proud in
01:22:12
their dameship. So, you know, I think
01:22:14
it's lovely that you, you know, talking
01:22:16
about Dame as Dame Jon, etc., but with
01:22:18
all the people I've known all my life,
01:22:20
it's like it it's you're not going to
01:22:22
be, you know, you don't expect to be
01:22:23
treated any differently or called any
01:22:25
differently. But, um, no, I have not I
01:22:27
have not used in that way. I I honestly
01:22:29
I honestly don't I don't know if Chris
01:22:31
has ever used it that way on my behalf,
01:22:32
but I have not used it that way. Not
01:22:34
yet. But, I would I would if I needed
01:22:36
to.
01:22:38
>> If push comes to shove
01:22:39
>> push comes to sh 100%. Um yes, so
01:22:43
there's been um some health struggles
01:22:45
over the years which we sort of touched
01:22:46
upon. What about um mental health from
01:22:48
the neck up? How's your mental health
01:22:49
been?
01:22:50
>> No, never
01:22:51
>> never had an issue with it.
01:22:52
>> No, I mean the only time I was depressed
01:22:55
was after my gay boyfriend um split up
01:22:58
with me. So I would have been what was I
01:22:59
then 19? I I remember being heartbroken
01:23:02
then
01:23:03
>> and driving my car across Fairfield
01:23:05
Bridge in Hamilton going maybe I should
01:23:07
just drive off the side. But that was
01:23:09
fleeting and you know past and no I've
01:23:12
never I I very much believe that you
01:23:17
know you wake up tomorrow and anything's
01:23:19
possible again. And so I've had
01:23:21
difficult periods that that period 20
01:23:23
205 to 209 was a very difficult period.
01:23:26
Um the year of my burnout my in my
01:23:28
mid-50s which we touched on that was
01:23:30
very difficult because nobody could find
01:23:32
out what was wrong with me
01:23:33
>> and so that was a difficult year. So,
01:23:35
I've had difficult periods, but I've
01:23:36
never had any period when I thought that
01:23:38
I needed mental health support.
01:23:42
>> Yeah, it's very lucky, isn't it? But,
01:23:44
but I mean, there are things you can do
01:23:46
to protect your own mental health, which
01:23:47
you you you seem to do anyway, like you,
01:23:49
you know, you get some movement every
01:23:50
morning. Um, you're not drinking any
01:23:52
alcohol, your decaf coffee.
01:23:54
>> That's right. Gosh, you know a lot about
01:23:56
me.
01:23:57
>> Yeah.
01:23:57
>> Yeah, that's right. Um, well, sleep's
01:23:59
really important. When I first started
01:24:01
going to spars, it was all boot camp. We
01:24:02
wake up at 5:00 and you do a 20k hike
01:24:04
before breakfast on a cracker. But now
01:24:06
it's about you know just take your time
01:24:09
get up when you want to and you know you
01:24:12
know so so regular sleep good sleep
01:24:15
although they call it sleep hygiene I
01:24:17
guess I've always known the importance
01:24:18
of that but you know I think the best
01:24:20
thing I did for my mental health was not
01:24:21
have children I just wouldn't have coped
01:24:23
and I knew that.
01:24:25
Yeah, there's not um um so I I had some
01:24:29
uh fertility troubles with my wife and
01:24:31
we had years and years of IVF and
01:24:32
couldn't have kids and and in the end
01:24:34
the relationship didn't work and uh so
01:24:37
for me I I wanted kids and then you you
01:24:39
have this sort of vision of how you want
01:24:40
the second half of your life to look and
01:24:42
suddenly you have to reframe that.
01:24:43
>> So the choice was sort of taken away
01:24:44
from me but um you you've got no regrets
01:24:47
at all at this stage of your life.
01:24:48
You're quite content.
01:24:50
>> I am content. I don't have any regrets.
01:24:52
I I really believe you regret what you
01:24:55
what you didn't do, not what you did do.
01:24:57
Cuz even if it doesn't go well, even if
01:24:59
it's a failure,
01:25:01
>> you still learn. And yeah. No, I don't
01:25:04
have regrets.
01:25:06
>> God, you got such a good attitude. What
01:25:08
are your best and worst habits?
01:25:11
>> What are my best and worst habits?
01:25:15
>> I'm a very generous, kind person. And if
01:25:18
you peeled back the business success and
01:25:20
the dame and all of that, my that's how
01:25:22
my friends would describe me. Kind and
01:25:24
generous.
01:25:25
>> I'm quite eventempered. I I'm not at all
01:25:27
moody. I'm only grumpy if I can't swim
01:25:29
and I organize my life so I always can
01:25:30
swim.
01:25:32
>> Um my worst habits
01:25:38
well I'm pretty untidy, pretty messy and
01:25:41
I don't clean up after myself. Like if I
01:25:43
go I go home now and I'll have dirty
01:25:46
dishes all over the bench and in the
01:25:47
sink and I'll be saying to myself,
01:25:48
doesn't matter. My cleaner comes
01:25:49
tomorrow, you know? It's like so I'm not
01:25:51
I'm not particularly house proud. I like
01:25:54
I don't I got a dog that doesn't shed,
01:25:56
but I I wouldn't care if I had a dog
01:25:57
that shedded. Like I it's sort of I'm
01:25:59
not I'm not disciplined about everything
01:26:03
being in the right in the in the you
01:26:05
know in its place. I'm not a
01:26:06
perfectionist. So uh that and but I'm
01:26:10
I'm quite, you know, I like things were
01:26:13
done well. So I I'm I'm pretty
01:26:15
intolerant of incompetence of I can be
01:26:18
very impatient,
01:26:20
>> I like things to be done well around me,
01:26:22
but I myself am can be quite lazy. So
01:26:25
even though I seem energetic, I am
01:26:27
energetic, but I can be quite lazy
01:26:28
>> and you get a lot done. So okay, so when
01:26:30
you when there's a a pile of fresh
01:26:31
laundry, do you have like a laundry
01:26:33
mountain or are you quite good at
01:26:34
putting it away or
01:26:35
>> Oh, no. Laundry is the the only
01:26:36
household task I quite like. Yeah. No, I
01:26:39
am quite No, no, no. I I like to put the
01:26:41
clothes away cuz otherwise I'll be
01:26:42
frustrated when I go look for the thing
01:26:43
and I don't have it. So, no, I'm I'm
01:26:45
quite good on laundry. I'm just not good
01:26:46
on dishes.
01:26:47
>> I appreciate that in that these insights
01:26:49
because um the well the damees that I
01:26:52
thought I knew is like immaculate and
01:26:54
well presented. You never know what's
01:26:56
going on behind the scenes, do you?
01:26:58
>> The watch thing has been very
01:26:59
interesting.
01:27:02
>> Yeah.
01:27:04
Well, that's right. Before I did this, I
01:27:06
was doing Pilates and I rushed home and
01:27:08
I got changed and kept myself here and I
01:27:10
didn't look immaculate. You know, half
01:27:12
an hour before you saw me come in.
01:27:15
>> Is Is there a what if that keeps you up
01:27:17
at night?
01:27:18
>> No, not really. Um, I'm still very
01:27:22
grateful that I've got good health and
01:27:23
good energy and choices about what I do
01:27:26
now in my 60s. And, you know, my best
01:27:28
friend died at 66. I'm, you know, and it
01:27:30
was like a shock. So I'm, you know, I'm
01:27:34
I hope that I'm live well into my 80s,
01:27:38
if not 90s, and I'm doing my best to be
01:27:41
healthy and that you I do a lot of
01:27:42
Pilates now. I stopped horse riding. I
01:27:44
stopped anything I can get, no broken
01:27:46
bones. I do Pilates because it's
01:27:48
flexibility is going to be really
01:27:49
important.
01:27:50
>> And um I was 61 before I had a house,
01:27:54
two houses, one at the beach, one in
01:27:55
Oakland, both with swimming pools. So I
01:27:57
I like I you know that's life-changing
01:27:59
to just you know swim every morning and
01:28:02
Yeah. No, I'm and walking on the beach
01:28:04
is like New Zealand is very close to
01:28:06
nature. You don't have to go very far to
01:28:08
be in nature and that's that's what
01:28:10
keeps us all sane and
01:28:12
>> this is a lovely place to live. We
01:28:13
actually all quite we all quite like
01:28:15
each other. We or at least we don't
01:28:17
dislike each other.
01:28:19
>> You you got a little little emotional
01:28:20
before reflecting on your dad. Um
01:28:24
>> are you much of a crier these days? See
01:28:26
you quite emotional.
01:28:27
>> No.
01:28:27
>> No.
01:28:28
>> No.
01:28:29
>> When would be the last time you cried
01:28:30
before that?
01:28:32
>> Oh, probably at his funeral.
01:28:33
>> Wow.
01:28:34
>> Yeah.
01:28:34
>> Yeah. May maybe I have been sad about my
01:28:37
mom. It's poss maybe in terms of my
01:28:39
mom's decline, but um certainly at you
01:28:41
know dad's funeral was the last time I
01:28:43
think. Yeah, that was
01:28:44
>> Yeah.
01:28:45
>> Well, I take that as a huge compliment
01:28:46
that you felt comfortable enough opening
01:28:48
up here today. It means a lot.
01:28:51
>> What are you most afraid of? M
01:28:56
probably being alive but being
01:28:57
incapacitated, you know, either being
01:28:59
blind or paralyzed or, you know, just
01:29:04
not being able to have to to to to have
01:29:06
freedom to the things I taken for
01:29:08
granted, freedom of movement.
01:29:11
>> That that's probably it. Being alive and
01:29:12
on the earth, but um either in great
01:29:15
physical pain or in some way permanently
01:29:17
incapacitated. In fact, I even hate
01:29:18
talking about it because I don't want to
01:29:20
bring that energy into into this room,
01:29:22
into me. I want to, you know, hop in my
01:29:24
car and drive safely home and
01:29:26
>> fly safely to Wellington today in the
01:29:28
plane and
01:29:30
>> um yeah, but that would be physical. I'm
01:29:34
not good on physical like I'm not
01:29:36
actually I'm an okay driver, but I think
01:29:39
my sisters are all better than me and
01:29:40
I'm not I haven't got very good spatial
01:29:42
awareness and and
01:29:44
>> you do what you do or what you don't.
01:29:45
>> No, I don't I don't have very good
01:29:46
spatial. You said
01:29:47
>> I COMPLIMENTED ON YOUR PARKING on
01:29:49
>> I know but it's like maybe that was
01:29:51
luck. I don't think I've got good
01:29:52
spatial awareness. And so I'm always
01:29:53
like and I've had and I've had more than
01:29:55
one fall in my life too. And so it's
01:29:57
like I I'm and and you know thrown
01:30:00
thrown from my horse several times. And
01:30:02
it's just like I'm quite I don't feel
01:30:06
really really confident in my own body
01:30:08
physically
01:30:09
>> like so I'm so something happening to me
01:30:12
physically would be really difficult for
01:30:16
me because of the life that I want to
01:30:18
live and so that's made me more cautious
01:30:21
and probably would be you know one of
01:30:23
the things that I would fear most.
01:30:25
>> Are you superstitious at all?
01:30:26
>> No.
01:30:27
>> No. Just something you said before about
01:30:29
you like you didn't want to jinx it.
01:30:30
Almost look like you're about to like
01:30:32
touch me.
01:30:32
>> I'm not No, no, not but No, I'm not
01:30:34
superstitious, but I I believe that what
01:30:36
we talk about becomes our reality. What
01:30:37
we think about
01:30:39
>> it doesn't always work like that, but it
01:30:41
helps.
01:30:42
>> It helps.
01:30:42
>> Like manifestation.
01:30:43
>> Yeah, like manifestation.
01:30:45
>> What's funny, you sort of talked about
01:30:45
that in the beginning of the podcast
01:30:46
where you had cutouts of like female
01:30:49
role models.
01:30:49
>> Yes. Well, I don't do that like as much
01:30:52
now as I did then, but
01:30:54
>> like a long time ago, I manifested the
01:30:56
car I wanted. I took a picture of a car
01:30:58
I wanted. This is when I lived in
01:30:59
Wellington. And I rang the dealer and I
01:31:01
said, "Look, I want this Audi." And he
01:31:03
said, "We don't have that in New
01:31:04
Zealand." And then about a year later,
01:31:06
he rang me. He said, "Oh, there's one
01:31:08
car that's that's coming from
01:31:09
Australia." That's I said, "Yes, I'll
01:31:12
have that car." And it was like, "Wow."
01:31:15
So, you know, that's a very
01:31:16
materialistic thing. The car I wanted
01:31:18
turned up. But I have used that to
01:31:20
create realities of other things as
01:31:22
well. And so, I do believe in just call
01:31:24
it, you know, what Dell Kaggi call it,
01:31:26
the power of positive thinking. M.
01:31:27
>> So you call it what you like, but it's
01:31:29
not superstition. I don't touch wood. I
01:31:30
don't have, you know, I don't worry
01:31:32
about Friday 13th.
01:31:34
>> Yeah. It's not not woo woo. Um, what
01:31:37
what are you sort of like manifesting
01:31:38
now? What is there left to tick off?
01:31:40
>> Well, actually just um what is there
01:31:43
what what is there left to tick off?
01:31:46
getting a getting I am in transition
01:31:49
like getting a really good balance
01:31:50
between all the things you need to do to
01:31:52
have healthy aging and what I'm trying
01:31:55
to um make happen in the world and have
01:31:57
fun like managing that keeping all of
01:32:00
that in balance
01:32:01
>> just getting yeah getting the balance
01:32:03
right between them
01:32:04
>> yeah where where do you want to go to
01:32:06
you seem to love your travel
01:32:08
>> this year I am going to go um to Japan
01:32:11
because Global Woman has a trip to we
01:32:12
started doing overseas trips again to
01:32:14
Japan and my sister Angela speaks fluent
01:32:15
Japanese And I'm looking forward to that
01:32:17
cuz I' not been there for like I don't
01:32:18
know maybe 15 20 years and every year I
01:32:22
go to my favorite health retreat in the
01:32:24
world which is uh Kima Kosoi Thailand.
01:32:27
I'm going there for a couple of weeks
01:32:28
and that's just it's very it's very it's
01:32:32
got great bloody studio, great swimming
01:32:33
pools, but it's also very spiritual.
01:32:34
It's built around a monk's cave and I go
01:32:36
and I have coaching with the monk.
01:32:38
There's many monks who do it, but
01:32:39
there's one monk I like to go to and I
01:32:41
just have a reset. It's um just a reset
01:32:44
time. So, I'm going to do that, but
01:32:46
apart from that, I'm going to go to
01:32:47
Australia, catch up with some friends,
01:32:48
and that's it. Not too not that much
01:32:50
travel this year.
01:32:52
>> Life seems good. Oh, what's your
01:32:54
relationship with religion like now? You
01:32:55
were born in a religious house, aren't
01:32:56
I? Were you Catholic, Christian?
01:32:58
>> I was Catholic, and I I became I retired
01:33:01
as a Catholic when I left home at 17. I
01:33:04
think religion's got a lot to answer
01:33:05
for,
01:33:06
>> you know, the Catholic Church, you know,
01:33:08
really
01:33:09
>> just So, no. Um, I like the fact that
01:33:12
New Zealand
01:33:14
takes some of the tenants of
01:33:15
Christianity, like you know, treat
01:33:17
others you like to be treated, but but
01:33:18
it's not big on religiosity. Doesn't it
01:33:20
doesn't matter whether you're Anglican,
01:33:22
Catholic, or agnostic.
01:33:24
>> Yeah, I'm I'm much the same. Like the
01:33:26
Ten Commandments, it's quite it's quite
01:33:28
good messaging. Like the Bible is
01:33:30
generally just don't be an [ __ ]
01:33:32
>> But um yeah, I was born and raised um
01:33:34
Catholic and had to go to church every
01:33:36
Sunday and you know, uncomfortable
01:33:38
clothes. And then as I got older, I
01:33:39
realized um you can be an [ __ ] and be
01:33:41
religious and you can be a good person
01:33:43
and not be religious.
01:33:44
>> That's exactly my view. That's exactly
01:33:46
my view. Yeah.
01:33:47
>> So what do you think happens when you
01:33:48
when you die? Just nothing.
01:33:50
>> Oh, no. I do actually think that that um
01:33:52
that the the soul goes forward. So
01:33:56
um also I think I'll see my father
01:33:58
again.
01:33:59
>> God, that would be nice, wouldn't it? M
01:34:02
>> so I do think that I would be um in my
01:34:05
peer group of of so business colleagues
01:34:07
most think nothing happens
01:34:09
>> and some don't know
01:34:12
>> so
01:34:12
>> well none none of us know
01:34:13
>> well none of us know but some say I
01:34:15
don't know I'm not prepared to say it is
01:34:17
it isn't
01:34:18
>> I'm not prepared to say because you know
01:34:20
physics things can discorporate and
01:34:22
reinccorporate it's like yeah could
01:34:24
happen so
01:34:26
>> I but I believe and I don't know if
01:34:27
that's from the Catholic upbringing or
01:34:29
just because that's what I want to
01:34:30
believe but I believe that the soul
01:34:33
carries on but when your physical body
01:34:35
is gone your spirit isn't whoever you've
01:34:37
touched around you in your life and what
01:34:39
you've done and the you know the soul
01:34:40
goes off
01:34:42
>> that's what I believe
01:34:42
>> yeah it is it's the impact you have on
01:34:44
the people around you isn't it that's it
01:34:46
and if if if this was your last day and
01:34:48
um there were your best friends your
01:34:50
family your sisters your nieces and
01:34:52
nephews around you what three words
01:34:54
would you like them to use to describe
01:34:55
you
01:34:56
>> oh um
01:34:59
well I I always thought I wanted on my
01:35:02
um grave headstone, you know. By the
01:35:05
way, I've already bought my cemetery
01:35:06
plot at Wahhee Beach. Like that's where
01:35:08
I'm going to that's where I'm going to
01:35:09
that's where I'm going to go. But um
01:35:11
>> you're a planner.
01:35:12
>> Yeah, I'm definitely a planner. I'M A
01:35:13
PLANNER. AND I said to Hartley the other
01:35:16
day, you better buy yours cuz they're
01:35:17
going fast.
01:35:20
Anyway, um well, I always thought I
01:35:24
wanted on my u whatever she led a
01:35:26
self-determined life, but I don't know
01:35:28
if I want that now. So, I have to have a
01:35:29
think about this. It's like
01:35:31
>> she lived what? She lived a
01:35:32
self-determined life.
01:35:33
>> Yes. I always thought that's what I
01:35:34
wanted, but now I think that I don't
01:35:36
want that. So, I'll have to have a think
01:35:37
about what I want now cuz I haven't
01:35:38
thought about it for a while. Something
01:35:40
about,
01:35:41
>> you know, she left the world better than
01:35:42
she found it. Something, you know, or
01:35:45
she Yeah. I mean, you live on and all
01:35:48
the people that you've touched and that
01:35:49
happens to me a lot. the thousands of
01:35:51
people through my B and Zed days and
01:35:52
telecom days and since then and yeah,
01:35:56
you know, I get constant feedback about
01:35:58
that and that is just lovely. That's one
01:36:00
of the benefits of living in New Zealand
01:36:01
forever, decades and decades.
01:36:03
>> Yeah.
01:36:04
>> Are you proud of yourself?
01:36:05
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I've managed quite
01:36:07
well with what life's thrown at me and
01:36:09
what I was born with. And I don't think
01:36:11
that I have a huge range of talents. I
01:36:13
think I've made the best of the ones
01:36:15
that I was given. M
01:36:19
>> Dame Theresa Gating. I reckon this is a
01:36:21
good place to leave it.
01:36:22
>> Yes, cuz my watch list is4 TO 1.
01:36:26
>> WELL, it's 2:57 now and you wanted to be
01:36:28
out here by 3:00 p.m. If we were going
01:36:30
on your time, this could have been a
01:36:31
much different chat. Much longer. Um,
01:36:33
that's been the I mean, there's been so
01:36:35
many highlights in this chat. You're a
01:36:36
great New Zealander, but that's uh
01:36:37
that's right up there. That's next
01:36:39
level. Unbelievable. How do you how do
01:36:42
you make it to everything on time?
01:36:46
Well, usually I don't have the watch on.
01:36:47
I'm just looking at my phone.
01:36:50
>> Yeah, this has been great and I I I know
01:36:52
you don't do many of these things. Um,
01:36:53
so I really appreciate you being here
01:36:55
and being so candid and so open and um
01:36:58
yeah, I wish you well.
01:36:59
>> It's been great fun. Thank you very
01:37:00
much.
