00:00:00
is anybody else seeing a half a second
00:00:02
lag with jaycal or like a second line
00:00:04
test test one two one two from like the
00:00:06
way his mouth moves well that always
00:00:08
happens oh God here it comes his mouth
00:00:11
never stops moving black sex relaxed sex
00:00:15
are we going are we recording are you
00:00:18
ready to go
00:00:19
this is a plus material all right let's
00:00:22
go this is Chappelle at the punch line
00:00:24
let's go let's go
00:00:27
[Music]
00:00:39
[Music]
00:00:42
all right everybody Welcome to episode
00:00:47
111 of the world's greatest podcasts
00:00:50
according to slate the podcast that
00:00:53
shall not be mentioned by the Press
00:00:55
apparently you know what do you mean
00:00:56
they just did a profile on us well they
00:00:58
did this is the conundrum
00:01:00
it's so much of a phenomenon that we're
00:01:03
the number one business and the number
00:01:04
one Tech podcast in the world hands down
00:01:07
that the Press has a hard time giving us
00:01:12
any Oxygen because they want to hate us
00:01:16
they want to cover it you're saying they
00:01:18
take the ideas but not the they don't
00:01:20
want to cite it they don't want to cite
00:01:22
it they don't want to cite it but anyway
00:01:23
shout out to Slade yeah what I thought
00:01:25
was interesting was the guy pointed out
00:01:27
that we don't want to subject ourselves
00:01:29
to Independent journalists asking us
00:01:31
independent questions therefore we go
00:01:33
direct and that that's kind of the the
00:01:36
thing nowadays when everyone says they
00:01:38
want to go direct it's because they
00:01:39
don't want to be subject to Independent
00:01:40
journalists well one might ask
00:01:41
themselves why subjects don't want to go
00:01:44
direct yeah exactly you mean don't want
00:01:46
to go to journalists yeah because it
00:01:48
there's a there's a specific reason why
00:01:50
principles the subject of stories do not
00:01:52
want to have the Press
00:01:54
interpret what they're saying is because
00:01:56
they don't feel they're getting a fair
00:01:57
shake they feel like the challenge is
00:01:59
that then we avoid independent scrutiny
00:02:02
of our points of view and our decisions
00:02:03
they're constantly writing hip pieces
00:02:05
about us the the question is when we
00:02:08
want to present our side of it do we
00:02:11
need to go through their filter or not
00:02:12
why would you go through their filter
00:02:13
when it's always going to be a hit piece
00:02:16
right well I mean they have a class
00:02:19
hatred
00:02:20
of basically of Technology entrepreneurs
00:02:24
and investors
00:02:27
you're right Jake how they don't hate
00:02:29
you because you genuflect to their
00:02:31
political biases you see if if you do if
00:02:35
you do what SPF did which is basically
00:02:38
agree with all of their biases then yes
00:02:41
they'll treat you better that's the deal
00:02:43
that's how it works
00:02:45
a specific large media outlets right
00:02:48
she's not referring to Fox News
00:02:51
okay you can name one I'll trade you
00:02:54
I'll tell you what I'll trade you fox
00:02:55
for MSNBC and CNN and the New York Times
00:02:58
The Washington Post and the Atlantic
00:03:00
Magazine on and on and on you get a lot
00:03:02
of mileage out of being able to name Fox
00:03:04
the fact of the matter is Megan Callie
00:03:07
that's a podcaster she's independent now
00:03:09
that's true you can name one I mean
00:03:11
literally one Outlet
00:03:13
that is not part of this you know
00:03:16
mainstream media and they all think the
00:03:18
same way
00:03:19
there are very small differences the way
00:03:21
they think that's true it's all about
00:03:23
clicks uh at this point and it's all
00:03:25
about journalism and advocacy
00:03:28
well you're calling advocacy is bias and
00:03:32
activism it's activism it's that's what
00:03:34
I'm talking about activism journalism
00:03:35
yes I think the Draymond also highlights
00:03:37
a really important point which is you
00:03:39
know he started his podcast it's become
00:03:41
one of the most popular forms of sports
00:03:44
media and he can speak directly without
00:03:46
the filtering and you know
00:03:48
classification that's done by the you
00:03:51
know journalist and it seems to be a
00:03:53
really powerful Trend the audience
00:03:55
really wants to hear direct and they
00:03:56
want to hear unfiltered Raw
00:03:59
point of view and there and maybe
00:04:01
there's still a role for I think the
00:04:03
journalism separate from that which is
00:04:05
to then scrutinize and analyze and
00:04:07
question and it's not journalism to
00:04:10
activism they're just activists
00:04:12
there are also journalists out there
00:04:14
sites right so actually well it depends
00:04:17
what the topic is and what the outlet is
00:04:18
right but I I actually I would argue
00:04:21
that most of these journalists are doing
00:04:23
what they're doing for the same reason
00:04:24
that we're doing what we're doing which
00:04:26
is they want to have some kind of
00:04:28
influence because they don't get paid
00:04:30
very much right but the way they have
00:04:32
influence is to push a specific
00:04:33
political agenda I mean they're
00:04:35
activists they're basically artists
00:04:37
become advocacy journalism yes that's
00:04:39
the term I coin for it it's advocacy you
00:04:41
guys see this brouhaha
00:04:43
where Matt Iglesias wrote this article
00:04:45
about the fed and about the debt ceiling
00:04:49
and through this whole multi-hundred
00:04:51
word thousand word
00:04:54
tome he didn't understand the difference
00:04:57
between a percentage point and the basis
00:05:00
points yeah I did see that yeah wow so
00:05:04
wait a second you're saying the fed's
00:05:06
raising 25 percent
00:05:09
that's a huge difference between my
00:05:11
mortgage is coming up 25 between a
00:05:14
principal and an outside analyst right
00:05:15
like a principal has a better grasp
00:05:18
typically of the topic than the material
00:05:19
but you know the argument
00:05:23
within the journalist Circle he's
00:05:26
considered the conventional wisdom I get
00:05:27
it but the argument from a journalist is
00:05:29
that by having that direct access that
00:05:32
person is also biased because they're an
00:05:34
agent because they're a player on the
00:05:35
field they do have a point of view and
00:05:37
they do have a Direction they want to
00:05:38
take things so it is a fair commentary
00:05:40
that journalists can theoretically play
00:05:43
a role which if they're an off-field
00:05:44
analyst and that don't necessarily bring
00:05:47
I would argue they're less educated and
00:05:49
more biased than we are that may or may
00:05:51
not be true what the two of you guys are
00:05:52
debating which is a very subjective take
00:05:54
but the thing that is categorical and
00:05:56
you can't deny is that there is zero
00:05:59
checks and balances when something as
00:06:02
simple as the basis point percentage
00:06:04
Point difference isn't caught in
00:06:06
proofreading isn't caught by any editor
00:06:09
isn't taught by the people that you know
00:06:11
help them review this and so what that
00:06:13
says is all kinds of trash must get
00:06:15
through because there's no way for the
00:06:18
average person on Twitter to police all
00:06:21
of this nonsensical content this one was
00:06:22
easy because it was so numerically
00:06:24
illiterate that it just stood out but
00:06:27
can you imagine the the number of
00:06:29
unforced Errors journalists make today
00:06:32
in their search for clicks that don't
00:06:34
get caught out that may actually tip
00:06:36
somebody to think a versus B that's I
00:06:39
think the thing that's kind of
00:06:40
undeniable right yeah
00:06:44
there's a very simple test for this if
00:06:47
you read uh the journalists writing
00:06:50
about a topic you are an expert on
00:06:51
whatever the topic happens to be
00:06:53
you start to understand okay well on
00:06:56
that story I'm reading
00:06:58
that they understand about 10 or 20 or
00:07:00
30 percent of what's going on
00:07:03
but then when you read stories that
00:07:04
you're not involved in you know you read
00:07:06
a story about Hollywood or I don't know
00:07:08
pick an industry or a region you're not
00:07:10
super aware of you're like okay well
00:07:11
that must be 100 correct and the truth
00:07:14
is journalists have access to them there
00:07:17
is a name for it yeah it's called the
00:07:18
Gelman Amnesia effect you just
00:07:19
plagiarize Michael Crichton who came up
00:07:21
with that yeah so you yeah no it's
00:07:25
exactly right but I think it's worse
00:07:26
than that it's because now the
00:07:28
now the mistakes aren't being driven
00:07:31
just by sloppiness or laziness or just a
00:07:33
lack of expertise I think it's being
00:07:35
driven by an agenda so just to give you
00:07:37
an example on the Slate thing the Slate
00:07:39
article actually wasn't bad it kind of
00:07:41
made us seem you know cool the sub
00:07:43
headline was a close listen to all in
00:07:46
the infuriating fascinating safe space
00:07:47
for silicon Valley's money men okay but
00:07:50
the the headline changed so I don't know
00:07:53
if you guys noticed this the headline
00:07:54
now is Elon musk's Inner Circle is
00:07:57
telling us exactly what it thinks first
00:07:59
of all like they're trying for clicks
00:08:01
yeah so they're trying way too hard to
00:08:04
like describe Us in terms of Elon which
00:08:06
you know is maybe two episodes out of
00:08:08
110 but before inner circle the word
00:08:11
they used was cronies and then somebody
00:08:13
edited it because I saw cronies in like
00:08:16
one of those tweet you know
00:08:19
summaries you know where like it does a
00:08:22
capsule or whatever yeah yeah and those
00:08:25
get Frozen in time so you know they were
00:08:27
trying to bash us even harder and then
00:08:29
somebody took another look at it and
00:08:30
turned it down I'll tell you what
00:08:32
happens in the editorial process whoever
00:08:34
writes the article the article gets
00:08:36
submitted maybe it gets edited proof
00:08:37
read whatever maybe it doesn't even in
00:08:40
some Publications they don't have the
00:08:41
time for it because they're in a race
00:08:43
then they pick there's somebody who's
00:08:45
really good at social media they pick
00:08:46
six or seven headlines they a B test
00:08:48
them and they even have software for
00:08:50
this where they will run a test
00:08:52
sometimes they'll do a pay test they put
00:08:54
five dollars in ads on social media
00:08:57
whichever one performs the best that's
00:08:59
the one they go with so it's even more
00:09:01
cynical and because people who read the
00:09:03
headlines
00:09:04
sometimes they don't read the story
00:09:06
right obviously most people just see the
00:09:07
headline they interpret that as a story
00:09:08
that's why I told you when they did that
00:09:10
new Republic piece on you with that
00:09:12
horrific monstrous monstrosity of an
00:09:15
illustration
00:09:17
don't worry about it people just read
00:09:18
the headline they know you're important
00:09:20
nobody reads the story anyway no but it
00:09:23
wasn't a bad article actually it was
00:09:24
well written actually I was in shock I
00:09:26
was like who is this writer that
00:09:28
actually took the time to write some
00:09:29
prose that was actually decent yeah he
00:09:31
had listened to a lot of episodes
00:09:32
clearly that was a really good moment
00:09:34
actually that was great advice because
00:09:35
you gave it to him and you gave it to me
00:09:37
because both of us had these things and
00:09:39
Jason said the same thing just look at
00:09:41
the picture and if you're okay with the
00:09:43
picture just move on and I thought this
00:09:45
can't be true and it turned out to
00:09:47
mostly be true yeah but my picture was
00:09:48
terrible
00:09:50
yeah but it's close to reality
00:09:55
oh wow
00:10:00
but that just shows how ridiculously
00:10:03
biased it is right
00:10:07
Hugh Grant Elon let's pull that up one
00:10:10
more time here Elon looks like Hugh
00:10:12
Grant that's just kind of he does kind
00:10:14
of not bad kind of looks like Hugh Grant
00:10:16
and like Notting Hill I knew that
00:10:18
article was going to be fine when the
00:10:20
first you know item they presented as
00:10:23
evidence of me doing something wrong was
00:10:25
basically helping to oust chase a boudin
00:10:27
which was something that was supported
00:10:29
by like 70 of San Francisco yeah which
00:10:32
is a 90 Democratic City so not exactly
00:10:35
evidence of some you know right-wing
00:10:38
movement look at the headline
00:10:40
the quiet political rise of David sacks
00:10:42
silicon Valley's prophet of urban Doom
00:10:44
I'm just letting you know people don't
00:10:46
get past the sixth word in the image
00:10:47
yeah that's 99 of people are like oh my
00:10:50
God congrats on the you know Republic
00:10:52
article it could have literally been
00:10:53
Laurel what do they call them uh Laurel
00:10:55
lipsums you know like it could have just
00:10:57
been filler words from their second
00:10:58
graph down and nobody would know yeah
00:11:01
but now apparently if you notice that
00:11:04
San Francisco streets look like you know
00:11:07
Walking Dead that apparently you're a
00:11:09
prophet of urban do I mean people are so
00:11:11
out of touch I mean they can't even
00:11:13
acknowledge what people can see with
00:11:15
their own eyes that's the bias that's
00:11:16
gotten crazy and I don't know if you
00:11:18
guys saw this
00:11:20
really horrible dystopian video of an
00:11:23
art gallery owner who's been dealing
00:11:25
with owning a storefront in San
00:11:27
Francisco which is challenging and
00:11:29
having to clean up
00:11:31
feces and you know trash and whatever uh
00:11:34
every day and I guess the guy snapped
00:11:37
and he's hosing down a homeless person
00:11:40
who refuses to leave the front of a
00:11:42
store
00:11:43
oh I saw that I saw just like the
00:11:45
humanity in this is just insane like
00:11:49
really like you're hosing a human being
00:11:51
down
00:11:52
it's terrible who is obviously
00:11:55
not living a great life and is you know
00:11:58
I can feel for both of them I agree that
00:12:01
it's not good to hose a human being down
00:12:03
on the other hand think about the sense
00:12:04
of frustration that store owner has
00:12:06
because he's watching his business go in
00:12:09
the toilet because he's got homeless
00:12:11
people living in front of him so they're
00:12:13
both like being mistreated the homeless
00:12:15
person
00:12:18
say more the the homeless person is
00:12:20
being mistreated the Stormer is being
00:12:21
mistreated by the city of San Francisco
00:12:22
yeah
00:12:25
is not in a privileged position that
00:12:27
person probably the store owner the
00:12:29
store owner he's probably fighting to
00:12:31
stay in business I'm just saying I'm not
00:12:33
saying that's right but no no I'm laying
00:12:36
the Rope
00:12:40
you're trying to do what you're trying
00:12:42
to do is oh my God look at this this
00:12:45
homeless person being horribly oppressed
00:12:46
no that store owner is a victim too
00:12:49
oh yeah there's no doubt it's horrible
00:12:51
to run a business what is that person
00:12:53
supposed to do no wait this is this is
00:12:55
symbolic of the breaking down of basic
00:12:57
Society like these both of these people
00:13:00
are obviously like it's just a horrible
00:13:03
moment to even witness it's like oh he
00:13:07
it's like something Jason do you have
00:13:09
equal empathy for the store owner and
00:13:11
the homeless person or no
00:13:13
under no circumstances should you hose a
00:13:16
person down in the face who is homeless
00:13:18
like it's just horrific to watch it's
00:13:20
just inhumane this is a human being now
00:13:22
but as a person who owns a store yeah my
00:13:24
dad grew up in the local business if
00:13:25
people were abusing The Story You're
00:13:27
trying to make a living and you've got
00:13:28
to clean up you know whatever excrement
00:13:31
every day which is terrific yes and this
00:13:34
is dystopian look in that moment the
00:13:37
empathy is not equal I think you have
00:13:39
more empathy obviously for the person on
00:13:41
the receiving end of that hose okay but
00:13:43
in general our society has tons of
00:13:47
empathy for homeless people we spend
00:13:49
billions of dollars trying to solve that
00:13:51
problem you never hear a thing about the
00:13:53
store owners who are going out of
00:13:54
business so on a societal level you know
00:13:58
not in that moment but in general the
00:14:00
lack of empathy is for these middle
00:14:03
class store owners who may not be middle
00:14:05
class working class who are struggling
00:14:07
to stay afloat and you look at something
00:14:10
like what is it like a quarter or a
00:14:12
third of the store fronts instead
00:14:13
Francisco are now vacant the city yes
00:14:16
this person is running the shocking
00:14:18
thing is like this person is running an
00:14:20
art gallery storefront in San Francisco
00:14:22
like why would you even bother why would
00:14:24
you bother to have a storefront in San
00:14:25
Francisco I mean everybody's left it's
00:14:27
just what do you mean why do you bother
00:14:28
if you soap into stores so what are you
00:14:30
supposed to start to code all of a
00:14:32
sudden well no I mean you would shut it
00:14:34
down at some point and find an exit and
00:14:35
do it has large fixed costs right
00:14:40
10 years ago exactly at some point you
00:14:43
have to shut down your story in San
00:14:45
Francisco the second you can get out of
00:14:46
the solution to everything jcal isn't go
00:14:48
to coding school online and then you
00:14:49
know I didn't say it was I'm just but
00:14:52
moving to another city is a possibility
00:14:53
oh true a lot of folks in Silicon Valley
00:14:56
I think in this weirdly [ __ ] up way do
00:14:58
believe the solution to everything is
00:14:59
learn to code or it's an Uber driver
00:15:02
yeah
00:15:03
get a gig job get a gig years the guy
00:15:07
spent years building his retail business
00:15:09
I mean the thing is English person camps
00:15:11
in front and the homeless and he calls
00:15:13
the the police the police don't come and
00:15:15
move the homeless person the homeless
00:15:16
person stays there he asks nicely to
00:15:17
move customers are uncomfortable going
00:15:19
into store as a result yeah I stopped
00:15:20
going to certain stores in my
00:15:21
neighborhood because of homeless tents
00:15:23
being literally fixated in front of the
00:15:25
store and I go to the store down the
00:15:26
road to get my groceries or whatever
00:15:28
like I mean it's not a kind of uncommon
00:15:30
situation for a lot of these small
00:15:31
business owners they don't own the real
00:15:32
estate they're paying rent uh they've
00:15:35
got high labor costs you know
00:15:36
everything's inflating generally city
00:15:39
populations declining it's a brutal
00:15:40
situation
00:15:42
all around I think if everybody learns
00:15:45
to code or drives an Uber the problem is
00:15:47
that in the absence of things like local
00:15:50
stores and small businesses you hollow
00:15:52
out communities
00:15:53
you've got these random detached places
00:15:56
where you kind of live and then you sit
00:15:58
in your house which becomes a prison
00:15:59
while you order food from an app every
00:16:02
day I don't think that is the society
00:16:03
that people want so I don't know I kind
00:16:05
of want small businesses to exist and I
00:16:08
think that the homeless person should be
00:16:10
taken care of but the small business
00:16:11
person should have the best chance of
00:16:13
trying to be successful because it's
00:16:14
hard enough as it is the the mortality
00:16:16
rate of the of the small business owner
00:16:19
is already 90 percent
00:16:21
it's impossible in San Francisco let's
00:16:23
just be honest
00:16:25
I'm not trying to push people listen
00:16:27
yeah you are because here here's
00:16:29
something I'm saying the guy I'm just
00:16:31
shocked that the guy even has a
00:16:33
storefront I would have left alone
00:16:34
you're showing a tweet that's a moment
00:16:36
in time and you're not showing the 10
00:16:37
steps that led up to it oh a thousand
00:16:40
steps five times he called the police
00:16:42
station
00:16:44
customers the stuff that free burgers
00:16:46
were just talking about or maybe there
00:16:48
was physical conflict that we didn't see
00:16:49
in that you know and he's resolving it
00:16:52
man it's really hard to look at these
00:16:54
videos and know what's going on it's
00:16:55
awful to see but man we don't know it's
00:16:57
the whole thing actually you want to
00:16:59
know another reason why we can't solve
00:17:00
this problem this is the language we use
00:17:02
around it the fundamental problem here
00:17:03
is not homeless no it's addiction it's
00:17:06
addiction because and it's mental
00:17:08
illness shellenberger's done the work
00:17:09
it's like he said 99 of the people he
00:17:12
talks to it's either mental illness or
00:17:13
addiction but we keep using this word
00:17:15
homeless to describe the problem right
00:17:18
but the issue here is not the lack of of
00:17:20
housing although that's a separate at
00:17:22
problem in California but it's basically
00:17:24
the lack of of treatment totally so we
00:17:26
should be calling them treatmentless and
00:17:28
mandates around this because and
00:17:29
enforcement you you cannot you can't
00:17:32
have a super drug be available for a
00:17:35
nominal price and give people
00:17:38
you know a bunch of money to come here
00:17:39
and take it and not enforce it you have
00:17:41
to draw the line that's at fentanyl I'm
00:17:43
sorry fentanyl is a super drug there's
00:17:45
three Alternatives is mandated rehab
00:17:48
mandated mental health uh or jail or you
00:17:53
know Housing Services if you're not
00:17:55
breaking the law you don't have mental
00:17:56
illness you don't have drug addiction
00:17:57
and then provide those are the four
00:17:58
Paths of outcome here of success and if
00:18:01
all four of those paths were both
00:18:03
mandated and available in abundance this
00:18:06
could be a attractable problem
00:18:08
unfortunately the man the Mandate I mean
00:18:11
you guys remember that Kevin Bacon movie
00:18:12
where Kevin Bacon was locked up in a
00:18:14
mental institution but he wasn't like
00:18:18
he wasn't mentally ill it's a famous
00:18:20
story
00:18:24
you guys someone's probably gonna call
00:18:26
me an idiot for for
00:18:28
messing this whole thing up but
00:18:30
I think um there's a there's a story
00:18:32
where
00:18:33
mandated
00:18:36
Mental Health Services like locking
00:18:38
people up to take care of them when they
00:18:40
have mental uh mental health issues like
00:18:42
this became kind of inhumane
00:18:45
and a lot of the institutions were shut
00:18:47
down and a lot of the laws were
00:18:48
overturned and there are many of these
00:18:50
cases that happened where they came
00:18:52
across as like torturous to what
00:18:54
happened to people that weren't mentally
00:18:55
ill and so the idea was like let's just
00:18:57
development
00:19:00
yeah well that's another one right and
00:19:02
it's unfortunate but I think that
00:19:04
there's some you know we talk a lot
00:19:05
about nuance and gray areas but there's
00:19:07
certainly some solution here that isn't
00:19:09
black or white it's not about not having
00:19:11
mandated Mental Health Services and it's
00:19:13
not about locking everyone up that has
00:19:15
some slight problem but there's some
00:19:17
solution here that needs to be crafted
00:19:18
uh where you know you don't let people
00:19:20
suffer and you don't let people suffer
00:19:22
both as the
00:19:24
the victim on the street but also
00:19:25
talking about a 5150 I think like when
00:19:28
people are held but because they're a
00:19:31
danger to themselves or others kind of
00:19:32
thing right but Jacob think about the
00:19:34
power of language here if we refer to
00:19:36
these people as untreated persons
00:19:38
instead of homeless persons and that was
00:19:41
the coverage 24 7 in the media is this
00:19:43
is an untreated person the whole policy
00:19:46
prescription would be completely
00:19:47
different we'd realize there's a
00:19:48
shortage of treatment we'd realize
00:19:50
there's a shortage of Remedies related
00:19:52
to getting people in treatment as
00:19:54
opposed to building housing but why why
00:19:58
and laws that mandate it that don't
00:20:00
enable it because if you don't mandate
00:20:01
it then you enable the free reign and
00:20:04
the free living on the street and the
00:20:06
open drug markets and all this sort of
00:20:07
stuff there's a really easy test for
00:20:09
this if it was if it was yourself
00:20:11
and you were addicted
00:20:14
or if it was a loved one it's one of
00:20:15
your immediate family members would you
00:20:17
want yourself or somebody else to be
00:20:19
picked up off the street and held with a
00:20:21
5150 or whatever code involuntarily
00:20:24
against their will because they were a
00:20:27
danger would you want them to be allowed
00:20:28
to remain on the street would you want
00:20:30
yourself if you were in that Dire
00:20:31
Straits and the answer of course is you
00:20:34
would want somebody what's interesting
00:20:36
policy perspective on this Jake house so
00:20:38
let me ask you as our uh our Die Hard
00:20:40
liberal on the show no I'm not a
00:20:41
die-hard liberal no no he's an
00:20:43
independent only votes for Democrats
00:20:44
please get it right 75 of the time I
00:20:47
voted Democrat 25 right independent of
00:20:49
us are Democrats okay 25 Republicans is
00:20:52
it not that your individual liberties
00:20:53
are infringed upon if you were to be
00:20:55
quote picked up and put away you know my
00:20:57
position on it is if you're not thinking
00:20:59
straight uh you're in you're high on
00:21:02
fentanyl you're not thinking for
00:21:03
yourself and you you could lose the
00:21:05
liberty for a small period of time 72
00:21:07
hours a week you know especially if
00:21:09
you're a danger to somebody you know
00:21:12
yourself or other people and in this
00:21:14
case if you're on fentanyl if you're on
00:21:15
meth you're you're a danger I mean I
00:21:18
think if more I think if some people
00:21:19
have that if more people have that point
00:21:20
of view and have that debate as sax is
00:21:22
saying in a more open way you could get
00:21:24
to some path to resolution on just not
00:21:26
in San Francisco it's not how it
00:21:28
happened so
00:21:29
you guys know this we won't say who it
00:21:31
is but someone in my family has some
00:21:35
pretty severe mental health issues and
00:21:37
the problem is
00:21:40
because they're an adult you can't get
00:21:42
them to get any form of treatment
00:21:43
whatsoever
00:21:45
right right
00:21:47
do you only have the nuclear option and
00:21:49
the nuclear option is you basically take
00:21:51
that person to court and try to seize
00:21:53
their power of attorney which is
00:21:54
essentially saying that you know
00:21:56
individual liberties are gone yeah and
00:21:58
by the way it is so unbelievably
00:22:00
restrictive what happens if you lose
00:22:02
that power of attorney
00:22:03
and somebody else has it over you
00:22:06
it's just a huge burden that
00:22:09
the legal system makes extremely
00:22:11
difficult and the throttle law is a
00:22:14
backstop you know if the person's
00:22:15
committing something illegal like
00:22:16
camping out or doing fentanyl math
00:22:19
whatever you can use the law as the
00:22:21
backstop you know
00:22:23
all that person can do is really get
00:22:25
arrested even that is not a high enough
00:22:27
bar to actually get power of attorney
00:22:29
over somebody the other thing that I
00:22:30
just wanted you guys to know I think you
00:22:32
know this but just a little historical
00:22:34
context is
00:22:35
a lot of this crisis in mental health
00:22:37
started because Reagan defunded all the
00:22:40
psychiatric hospitals he emptied them in
00:22:42
California
00:22:43
and that compounded because for whatever
00:22:46
reason his ideology was that these
00:22:48
things should be treated in a different
00:22:49
way and when he got to the presidency
00:22:52
one of the things that he did was he
00:22:54
repealed the mental health I think it's
00:22:56
called the mental health systems Act
00:22:57
mhsa
00:23:00
which completely broke down some pretty
00:23:02
Landmark legislation on mental health
00:23:03
and it's and I don't think we've ever
00:23:05
really recovered and that we're now 42
00:23:07
years onward from 1980 but or 43 years
00:23:11
onward but just something for you guys
00:23:12
to know that that's that's well that
00:23:14
breaking had a lot of positives yeah but
00:23:16
that's one definitely negative check in
00:23:18
my book against his legacy is his stance
00:23:21
on Mental Health in general and what he
00:23:23
did to defund mental health well let me
00:23:25
let me make a couple two points there so
00:23:27
I'm I'm not defending that specific
00:23:28
decision there were a bunch of scandals
00:23:31
in the 1970s and epitomized by the movie
00:23:33
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nestle Jack
00:23:35
Nicholson about the conditions in these
00:23:38
mental health homes and that did create
00:23:40
a Groundswell to change laws around that
00:23:43
but I think this idea that like somehow
00:23:46
Reagan is to blame when he hasn't been
00:23:48
in office for 50 years as opposed to the
00:23:50
politicians who've been in office for
00:23:52
the last 20 years I just think it's
00:23:54
letting them off the hook I mean Gavin
00:23:56
Newsom 10 15 years ago when he was mayor
00:23:58
of San Francisco declared that he would
00:24:01
end homelessness within 10 years he just
00:24:03
made another declaration like that as
00:24:05
Governor so I just feel like not saying
00:24:08
it's Reagan's fault I'm just saying it's
00:24:10
an interesting historical moment I think
00:24:12
it's letting I think it's letting the
00:24:13
politics Society needs to start thinking
00:24:15
about changing priorities we didn't have
00:24:17
this problem of massive numbers of
00:24:20
people living on the streets 10 15 years
00:24:22
ago it was a much smaller problem and I
00:24:25
think a lot of it has to do with
00:24:26
fentanyl the power of these drugs is
00:24:28
increased yes massively there's other
00:24:30
things going on here so
00:24:32
in any event I mean you can question
00:24:34
what Reagan did in light of current
00:24:36
conditions but I think this problem
00:24:37
really started in the last 10 15 years
00:24:40
yes like in in an order of magnitude
00:24:43
bigger way these are super drugs until
00:24:44
people realize like these are a
00:24:46
different class of drugs and they start
00:24:48
treating them as such it's gonna just
00:24:50
get worse
00:24:52
as far as I know Reagan didn't hand out
00:24:55
to these addicts 800 a week to feed
00:24:58
their addiction so they can live on the
00:25:00
street San Francisco that is the current
00:25:01
policy of the city
00:25:03
all I just wanted to just provide was
00:25:06
just that color that
00:25:08
we had a system of funding for the
00:25:10
mental health infrastructure
00:25:11
particularly local mental health
00:25:12
infrastructure and we took that back and
00:25:16
then we never came forward and all I was
00:25:18
saying is I'm just telling you I think
00:25:22
that's part of the solution here is yeah
00:25:23
we're going to have to basically build
00:25:25
up shelters we're going to build up and
00:25:28
support
00:25:29
the problem now for example is Gavin
00:25:31
Newsom says a lot of these things and
00:25:34
now he's gone from a massive Surplus to
00:25:37
a 25 billion dollar deficit overnight
00:25:40
which we talked about even a year ago
00:25:42
because that was just the the law of
00:25:44
numbers catching up with the state of
00:25:45
California and he's not in a position
00:25:48
now to do any of this stuff so this one
00:25:49
this problem may get worse well they did
00:25:52
they did appropriate I forget the number
00:25:54
it's like 10 billion or something out of
00:25:55
that you know huge budget they had to
00:25:57
solve the problem of homelessness so I
00:25:58
would just argue they're not tackling it
00:26:00
in the right way because what happened
00:26:01
is there's a giant special interest that
00:26:04
formed around this problem which is the
00:26:07
the building industry who gets these
00:26:10
contracts to build the quote you know
00:26:13
affordable housing or this industrial
00:26:15
complex
00:26:16
so they end up building 10 units at a
00:26:20
time on Venice Beach like the most
00:26:22
expensive land you could possibly build
00:26:24
because you get these contracts from the
00:26:26
government so there's now a giant
00:26:28
special interest in lobby that's formed
00:26:30
around this if you really want to solve
00:26:32
the problem you wouldn't be building
00:26:34
housing on Venice Beach you'd be going
00:26:37
to cheap land just outside the city
00:26:40
totally and you'd be building scale
00:26:42
shelters I mean shelters that can house
00:26:45
10 000 people not ten and you'd be
00:26:48
having treatment services
00:26:50
but with treatment built into them right
00:26:52
you'll be solving this problem at scale
00:26:54
and that's not what they're doing
00:26:56
by the way do I do you guys want to hear
00:26:58
it this week in grift oh sure we're all
00:27:01
in that's a great example of grift I um
00:27:04
I read something today in Bloomberg that
00:27:05
was unbelievable there's about two
00:27:08
trillion dollars of debt owned by the
00:27:10
developing world
00:27:12
that has been classified by a non-profit
00:27:15
The Nature Conservancy in this case as
00:27:18
eligible for what they called nature
00:27:19
swaps so this is two trillion of the
00:27:22
umpteen trillions of debt that's about
00:27:24
to get defaulted on by come countries
00:27:26
like Belize Ecuador Sri Lanka Seychelles
00:27:30
you name it and what happens now are the
00:27:34
big bulge bracket Wall Street Banks and
00:27:36
The Nature Conservancy
00:27:38
goes to these countries and says listen
00:27:40
you know you have a billion dollar
00:27:42
tranche of debt that's about to go
00:27:44
upside down
00:27:46
and you're going to be in default with
00:27:48
the IMF we'll let you off the hook
00:27:50
and you know we will negotiate with
00:27:53
those bondholders to give them 50 cents
00:27:55
on the dollar
00:27:56
but in return you have to promise to
00:27:59
take some of that savings and you know
00:28:01
protect the rain forest or protect a
00:28:04
coral reef or protect some mangrove
00:28:06
trees all sounds good
00:28:08
except then what these folks do is they
00:28:10
take that repackage debt they call it
00:28:14
ESG they mark it back up and then they
00:28:17
sell it to folks like BlackRock who have
00:28:19
decided that they must own this in the
00:28:21
portfolio so it literally just goes from
00:28:23
one sleeve of BlackRock which is now
00:28:25
marked toxic Emerging Market debt and
00:28:29
then it gets into someone's 401K as ESG
00:28:32
debt is that unbelievable so you convert
00:28:35
your signal and buy some ESG to make
00:28:37
yourself feel good yeah two trillion
00:28:39
dollars
00:28:40
ESG is that Exxon is like the number
00:28:43
seven like top ranked company according
00:28:46
to ESG and Tesla is even on the list
00:28:48
disastrous how crazy is that it's it's a
00:28:53
complete game yeah all of those that
00:28:56
we've said this many times but each of
00:28:57
those letters individually means so much
00:28:59
and should be worth a lot to a lot of
00:29:01
people but when you stick them together
00:29:03
it creates this toxic soup where you can
00:29:05
just hide the cheese
00:29:07
yeah I mean governance is important in
00:29:09
companies of course the environment is
00:29:11
important social change is important I
00:29:14
mean but why are these things grouped
00:29:16
together in this it just perverts it's
00:29:18
an industry Jacob it's an industry
00:29:20
absolutely all right Speaking of Chris
00:29:24
um Microsoft is going to put 10 billion
00:29:25
dollars or something into chat GPT
00:29:28
degenerate AI as I'm calling it now is
00:29:31
uh the hottest thing in soccer Valley
00:29:34
the technology is incredible I mean you
00:29:36
you can question the business model
00:29:37
maybe but the technology is pretty well
00:29:40
I mean yeah so what I'd say is a 29
00:29:42
billion dollars for a company that's
00:29:43
losing a billion dollars on Azure
00:29:44
credits a year that's one way to work at
00:29:46
it that's also look at a lot of other
00:29:50
businesses that ended up being worth a
00:29:51
lot down the road I mean sure you can
00:29:54
model out the future of a business like
00:29:56
this and create a lot of really
00:29:57
compelling big outcomes you know
00:30:00
potentially yeah so Microsoft is close
00:30:03
to investing 10 million and open AI in a
00:30:05
very convoluted transaction that people
00:30:07
are trying to understand it turns out
00:30:09
that they might wind up owning 59 of
00:30:13
open AI but get 75 percent of the
00:30:15
cashing properties back over time 49 49
00:30:19
yeah of open AI but they would get paid
00:30:22
back the 10 million dollars over some
00:30:24
amount of time
00:30:25
and this obviously includes Azure
00:30:28
credits uh and chat GPT as everybody
00:30:33
knows this um just incredible
00:30:35
demonstration of what AI can do in terms
00:30:39
of text-based creation of content and
00:30:41
answering queries
00:30:43
is taken the net by storm people are
00:30:45
really inspired by it sax do you think
00:30:48
that this is a defensible real
00:30:51
technology do you think this is like a
00:30:53
crazy hype cycle
00:30:55
well it's definitely the next VC hype
00:30:57
cycle everyone's kind of glomming on to
00:30:59
this because VC really right now needs a
00:31:01
savior just look at the public markets
00:31:03
everything we're investing in is in the
00:31:04
toilet so we all really want to believe
00:31:06
that this is going to be the next wave
00:31:09
and just because something is a vce hype
00:31:12
cycle doesn't mean that it's not true so
00:31:15
as I think one of our friends pointed
00:31:17
out
00:31:18
you know mobile turned out to be very
00:31:20
real I think cloud turned out to be
00:31:23
I'd say very real social was sort of
00:31:27
real in the sense that did lead to a few
00:31:29
big winners on the other hand web 3 and
00:31:33
crypto was a hype Cyclone it's turned
00:31:35
into a big bust VR falls into the hype
00:31:37
cycle it's probably a hype cycle so far
00:31:39
no one can even explain what web3 is
00:31:42
in terms of AI I think that if I had to
00:31:46
guess I would say the hype is real in
00:31:50
terms of its technological potential
00:31:52
however I'm not sure about how much
00:31:55
potential there is yet for VCS to
00:31:58
participate because right now it seems
00:32:01
like this is something that's going to
00:32:02
be done by really big companies so open
00:32:05
AI is basically a it looks like kind of
00:32:07
a Microsoft proxy you've got Google I'm
00:32:10
sure will develop it through their deep
00:32:12
mine asset
00:32:14
you know I'm sure Facebook is going to
00:32:16
do something huge in AI so what I don't
00:32:19
know is is this really a platform that
00:32:21
starts gonna be able to benefit from I
00:32:24
will say that
00:32:25
some of the companies we've invested in
00:32:26
are starting to use these tools so
00:32:30
I guess I guess where I am is I think
00:32:33
the technology is actually exciting I
00:32:36
wouldn't go overboard on the valuations
00:32:39
so I wouldn't buy into that level of the
00:32:40
hype but you think there could be
00:32:42
hundreds of companies built around an
00:32:45
API for something like chat gbt Dolly
00:32:48
maybe yeah I don't I don't think
00:32:49
startups are going to be able to create
00:32:51
the AI themselves but they might be able
00:32:54
to benefit from the apis maybe that's
00:32:57
the thing that has to be proven out
00:32:59
there's a lot of really fantastic
00:33:01
machine learning
00:33:03
services available through Cloud vendors
00:33:06
today right so as there has been one of
00:33:09
these kind of vendors and uh obviously
00:33:11
open AI is building tools a little bit
00:33:13
further down on the the stack
00:33:16
but there's a lot of tooling that can be
00:33:18
used for specific vertical applications
00:33:19
obviously the acquisition of instabeat
00:33:21
by bioentec is a really solid example
00:33:24
and most of the big dollars that are
00:33:26
flowing in biotech right now are flowing
00:33:28
into machine learning applications where
00:33:30
there's some vertical application of
00:33:31
machine learning tooling and techniques
00:33:33
around some specific problem set and the
00:33:36
problem set of mimicking human
00:33:39
communication and
00:33:41
doing generative media is a consumer
00:33:45
application set that has a whole bunch
00:33:46
of really interesting product
00:33:47
opportunities but let's not kind of be
00:33:50
blind to the fact that nearly every
00:33:52
other industry and nearly every other
00:33:54
vertical is being transformed today and
00:33:56
there's active progress being made in
00:33:58
funding and getting liquidity on
00:34:01
companies and progress with actual
00:34:03
products being driven by Machine
00:34:05
learning systems and there's a lot of
00:34:06
great examples of this so you know the
00:34:08
fundamental capabilities of large data
00:34:10
sets and then using these kind of
00:34:13
learning techniques in software and
00:34:16
statistical models to make kind of
00:34:18
predictions and drive businesses forward
00:34:20
in a way that they're not able to with
00:34:22
just human knowledge and human
00:34:24
capability alone is really uh real and
00:34:27
it's here today
00:34:29
and so I think let's not get caught up
00:34:30
in the fact that there's this really
00:34:31
interesting consumer Market hype cycle
00:34:34
going on where these tools are not being
00:34:36
kind of you know validated and
00:34:38
generating real value across many other
00:34:40
verticals and segments when you look at
00:34:42
this Microsoft open aidl and you see
00:34:45
something that's this convoluted hard to
00:34:47
understand what does that signal to you
00:34:50
as a capital allocator and Company
00:34:52
Builder I would put deals into two
00:34:54
categories one is easy and
00:34:56
straightforward and then two is you know
00:34:59
cute by half or you know the two heart
00:35:01
bucket this is clearly in that second
00:35:03
category
00:35:04
but it doesn't mean that is it in that
00:35:06
category well it doesn't mean that it
00:35:08
won't work in our group chat with the
00:35:10
rest of the guys one person said there's
00:35:13
a lot of complex law when you go from a
00:35:17
non-profit to a for-profit there's lots
00:35:20
of complexity in Deal construction the
00:35:22
original investors have certain things
00:35:24
that they want to see
00:35:26
there may or may not be you know legal
00:35:28
issues at play here that you
00:35:30
encapsulated well in the last episode I
00:35:33
think there's a lot of stuff we don't
00:35:34
know so I think it's important to just
00:35:36
like
00:35:37
give those folks the benefit of the
00:35:39
doubt but yeah if you're asking me
00:35:41
it's in the too hard bucket for me to
00:35:43
really take seriously now that being
00:35:44
said it's not like I I got shown the
00:35:47
deal so I can't I can't comment here's
00:35:49
what I will say the first part of what
00:35:51
Sac said I think is really important for
00:35:54
entrepreneurs to internalize which is
00:35:55
where can we make money
00:35:59
the reality is that
00:36:01
well let me just take a prediction I
00:36:04
think that Google will open source their
00:36:06
models because the most important thing
00:36:10
that Google can do is reinforce the
00:36:12
value of search
00:36:14
and the best way to do that is to Scorch
00:36:17
the Earth with these models which is to
00:36:18
make them widely available and as free
00:36:21
as possible
00:36:22
that will cause Microsoft to have to
00:36:24
catch up and that will cause Facebook to
00:36:27
have to really look in the mirror and
00:36:29
decide whether they're going to cap the
00:36:32
betting that they've made on AR VR and
00:36:36
reallocate very aggressively to AI I
00:36:38
mentioned this in the I did this Lex
00:36:40
Friedman podcast but that should be what
00:36:42
Facebook does and and the reason is
00:36:45
if Facebook and Google and Microsoft
00:36:47
have roughly the same capability in the
00:36:49
same model
00:36:50
there's an element
00:36:52
of machine learning that I think is very
00:36:54
important which is called reinforcement
00:36:56
learning and specifically it's
00:36:57
reinforcement learning from Human
00:36:59
feedback right so these rlhf pipelines
00:37:01
these are the things
00:37:03
that will make your stuff unique so if
00:37:06
you're a startup you can build a
00:37:08
reinforcement learning pipeline how you
00:37:10
build a product that captures a bunch of
00:37:12
usage we talked about this before that
00:37:15
data set is unique to you as a company
00:37:17
you can feed that into these models get
00:37:20
back better answers you can make money
00:37:21
from it Facebook has an enormous amount
00:37:25
of reinforcement learning inside of
00:37:26
Facebook every click every comment every
00:37:30
like every share
00:37:31
Twitter has that data set Google inside
00:37:34
of Gmail and search
00:37:37
Microsoft inside of Minecraft and
00:37:39
Hotmail so my point is David's right the
00:37:43
huge companies
00:37:44
I think
00:37:46
will create the substrates
00:37:48
and I think they'll be forced to Scorch
00:37:51
the Earth and give it away for free
00:37:54
and then on top of that is where you can
00:37:56
make money and I would just encourage
00:37:57
entrepreneurs to think where is my Edge
00:38:01
in creating a data set that I can use
00:38:03
for reinforcement learning that I think
00:38:04
is interesting that's kind of saying I
00:38:07
buy the ingredients from the supermarket
00:38:09
but then I can still construct a dish
00:38:11
that's unique and you know the salt is
00:38:14
there the pepper is there but how I use
00:38:16
that will determine whether you like the
00:38:18
thing or not and I think that you know
00:38:20
that is the way that I think we need to
00:38:22
start thinking about it interestingly as
00:38:24
we've all pointed out here open AI was
00:38:26
started as a non-profit the stated
00:38:29
philosophy was this technology is too
00:38:31
powerful for any company to own
00:38:33
therefore we're going to make it open
00:38:35
source and then somewhere in the last
00:38:36
couple years they said well you know
00:38:38
what actually it's too powerful for it
00:38:40
to be out there in the public
00:38:41
we need to make this a private company
00:38:43
and we need to get 10 billion dollars
00:38:47
from Microsoft that is the the
00:38:49
disconnect I am trying to understand
00:38:51
that's the most interesting part of the
00:38:53
story Jason I think if you go back to
00:38:55
2014 is when Google bought deepmind yeah
00:38:58
and immediately everyone started
00:39:01
reacting to a company as powerful as
00:39:03
Google having a toolkit and a team as
00:39:05
powerful as deepmind within them and
00:39:08
that that sort of power should not sit
00:39:09
in anyone's hands I heard people that
00:39:11
I'm close with that are close to the
00:39:12
organization and the company comment
00:39:15
that they thought this is the most kind
00:39:16
of scary threatening biggest threat to
00:39:19
humanity uh is Google's control of deep
00:39:21
mind and that was a naive kind of point
00:39:23
of view but it was one that was close
00:39:25
that was deeply held by a lot of people
00:39:27
so Reid Hoffman Peter Thiel Elon Musk a
00:39:30
lot of these guys funded the original
00:39:31
kind of open AI business in 2015 and
00:39:34
here's the link so I'm putting it out
00:39:36
here um you guys can pull up the
00:39:38
original blog post do all those don't
00:39:39
people who donated get stock
00:39:43
it was all in a non-profit and then the
00:39:45
non-profit owned stock in a commercial
00:39:47
business now but your point is
00:39:49
interesting because at the beginning the
00:39:51
idea was instead of having Google on all
00:39:52
of this we'll make it all available and
00:39:54
here's the the statement from the
00:39:56
original blog post in 2015 open AI is a
00:39:59
non-profit AI research company our goal
00:40:01
is to advance digital intelligence in
00:40:03
the way that is most likely to benefit
00:40:04
Humanity as a whole unconstrained by a
00:40:07
need to generate Financial return since
00:40:10
our research is free from Financial
00:40:12
Obligations we can better focus on a
00:40:14
positive human impact and they you know
00:40:16
kind of went on and the whole thing
00:40:17
about Sam Greg Elon Reed Jessica Peter
00:40:21
Thiel AWS YC are all donating to support
00:40:24
open AI including donations and
00:40:26
commitments of over a billion dollars
00:40:28
although we expect that to only be a
00:40:31
tiny fraction of what we will spend in
00:40:33
the next few years
00:40:34
which is a really interesting kind of if
00:40:37
you look back historical perspective on
00:40:39
how this thing all started seven years
00:40:40
ago and how quickly it's evolved as you
00:40:43
point out
00:40:43
into the necessity to have a real
00:40:45
commercial alignment to drive this thing
00:40:47
forward without seeing any of these
00:40:49
models open sourced and during that same
00:40:51
same period of time we've seen Google
00:40:54
share Alpha fold and share a number of
00:40:57
tensorflow predictive models and and
00:40:59
Tool kits and make them publicly
00:41:00
available and put them in Google's cloud
00:41:03
and so there's both kind of tooling and
00:41:06
models and outputs of those models that
00:41:08
Google has open sourced and made freely
00:41:10
available and meanwhile openai has kind
00:41:13
of diverged into this deeply profitable
00:41:15
profit-seeking kind of Enterprise model
00:41:17
and when you invest in open AI
00:41:20
in the round that they did before you
00:41:23
could generate a financial return capped
00:41:25
at 100x which is still a pretty amazing
00:41:27
Financial return you put a billion
00:41:28
dollars in you can make 100 billion
00:41:30
dollars that's that's funding a real
00:41:32
commercial Endeavor at that point well
00:41:34
and then to it is the most striking
00:41:37
question about this whole thing about
00:41:38
what's going on in our Ai and it's one
00:41:40
that elon's talked about publicly and
00:41:42
others have kind of sat on one side or
00:41:44
the other which is that AI
00:41:47
offers a glimpse into one of the biggest
00:41:50
and most kind of existential threats to
00:41:52
humanity and the question we're all
00:41:55
going to be tackling and the battle
00:41:56
that's going to be happening politically
00:41:58
and Regulatory wise and perhaps even
00:42:00
between nations in the years to come is
00:42:03
who owns the AI who owns the models what
00:42:05
can they do with it and what are we
00:42:07
legally going to be allowed to do with
00:42:08
it and this is a really important part
00:42:09
of that story yeah to build on what
00:42:11
you're saying I just put in pie torch
00:42:13
people don't know that's another
00:42:14
framework uh p-y-t-o-r-c-h
00:42:18
this was you know largely built inside
00:42:20
of Facebook and then Facebook said hey
00:42:22
we want to democratize machine learning
00:42:24
and they made and I think they put a
00:42:26
bunch of Executives they may have even
00:42:28
funded those Executives to go work on
00:42:29
this open source project so they have a
00:42:32
huge stake in this and they went
00:42:35
very uh open source with it and then
00:42:37
tensorflow which you have an investment
00:42:40
in Tremont tensorflow was inside I don't
00:42:44
I don't have a investment in tensorflow
00:42:46
we've no tensorflow the public Source
00:42:48
came out of Google and then you invested
00:42:50
in another company but we we're building
00:42:51
silicon for machine learning that's
00:42:53
different right but it's based on
00:42:55
tensorflow
00:42:56
no no no no no it the the the founder of
00:42:59
this company was the founder of
00:43:01
tensorflow oh got it okay all right no
00:43:03
sorry not a tensorflow part of me of the
00:43:05
of TPU which was Google's internal
00:43:07
silicon that they built to accelerate
00:43:10
tensorflow right if that makes sense
00:43:13
and so that's the I you know I don't
00:43:15
mean to be cynical about the whole
00:43:18
project or not it's just the confounding
00:43:20
part of this of what is happening here
00:43:21
it reminds me I don't know if you
00:43:23
remember this the biggest opportunity to
00:43:25
hear the biggest opportunity here is for
00:43:27
Facebook I mean they need to get in this
00:43:29
conversation ASAP I mean to to think
00:43:32
that like look pytorch was like a pretty
00:43:35
seminal piece of technology that a lot
00:43:37
of folks in in Ai and machine learning
00:43:39
were using for a long time
00:43:42
tensorflow before that and what's so
00:43:45
funny about like Google and Facebook is
00:43:46
they're a little bit kind of like
00:43:48
they're not really making that much
00:43:50
progress I mean Facebook released this
00:43:53
kind of like Rando version of alpha fold
00:43:55
recently it's not that good
00:44:00
I think these companies really need to
00:44:02
get these products in the wild as soon
00:44:04
as possible it cannot be the case that
00:44:07
you have to email people and get on some
00:44:09
list I mean this is Google and Facebook
00:44:10
guys come on this is the I think the big
00:44:14
innovation of open AI sax to bring you
00:44:18
in the conversation they actually made
00:44:20
an interface and let the public play
00:44:22
with it to the tune of three million
00:44:24
dollars a day in Cloud credits or costs
00:44:28
which by the way just on that my my son
00:44:31
was telling me he's like hey Dad do you
00:44:33
want me to tell you when the best time
00:44:34
to use chat gbt is I'm like huh he's
00:44:36
like yeah my friends and I have tried
00:44:38
we've been using it so much we know now
00:44:40
when we can actually get resources oh
00:44:43
wow and it's such an interesting thing
00:44:45
where like a 13 year old kid knows you
00:44:47
know when it's mostly compute intensive
00:44:49
that it's unusable and when to come back
00:44:51
and use it when's the last time Sachs a
00:44:54
technology became this mainstream and
00:44:56
captured people's imagination this
00:44:58
broadly
00:45:01
maybe the iPhone or something yeah yeah
00:45:04
look it's it's powerful there's there's
00:45:06
no question it's powerful I mean I I'm
00:45:07
of two minds about it because whenever
00:45:10
something is the hype cycle I just
00:45:11
reflexively want to be skeptical of it
00:45:13
but on the other hand we have made a few
00:45:15
investments in this area and I mean I
00:45:19
think it is powerful and it's it's going
00:45:21
to be an enabler of some really cool
00:45:22
things to come there's no question about
00:45:24
it I have two pieces of more Insider
00:45:27
information uh one I have a chat GPT IOS
00:45:30
app on my phone one of the nice Folks at
00:45:32
openai included me in the test flight
00:45:35
and it's the simplest interface you've
00:45:37
ever seen but basically you type in your
00:45:39
question but it keeps your history and
00:45:41
then you can search your history so it
00:45:42
looks sacks like you're in iMessage
00:45:44
basically and it has your threads and so
00:45:47
I asked them hey what are the best
00:45:48
restaurants in yawnville yeah a town
00:45:51
near um Napa and then I said which one
00:45:54
has the best duck and it literally like
00:45:56
gave me a great answer and then I
00:45:58
thought wait a second why is this not
00:45:59
using a Siri or alexa-like interface and
00:46:03
then why isn't it oh here's a video of
00:46:04
it I gave the video to Nick by the way
00:46:06
Jason this what you're doing right now
00:46:08
is you're creating a human feedback
00:46:10
reinforcement learning pipeline for chat
00:46:12
GPT so just the fact that you asked that
00:46:15
question and you know over time if chat
00:46:18
GPT has access to your GPS information
00:46:20
and then knows that you went to
00:46:22
restaurant a versus B they can Intuit
00:46:25
and it may actually prompt you to ask
00:46:27
hey Jason we noticed you were in the
00:46:29
area did you go to Bottega if you did
00:46:32
how would you rate it one through five
00:46:33
that reinforcement learning now allows
00:46:36
the next person that asks what are the
00:46:37
top five restaurants to say well you
00:46:39
know over a thousand people that have
00:46:41
asked this question here's actually the
00:46:43
best answer versus a generic rank of the
00:46:45
open web which is what the first data
00:46:47
set is that's what's so interesting
00:46:50
about this so this is why if you're a
00:46:52
company that already owns the eyeballs
00:46:54
you have to be running to get this stuff
00:46:56
out there well and then this answer uh
00:46:59
and you know cited Yelp well this is the
00:47:01
first time I've actually seen chat GPT
00:47:03
site and this is I think a major legal
00:47:06
breakthrough it didn't put a link in but
00:47:08
if it's going to use yelp's data I don't
00:47:11
know if that permission for me out but
00:47:12
it's quoting Yelp here it should link to
00:47:14
French Laundry Bottega and Bouchon
00:47:16
Bouchon actually has the best confit
00:47:18
for the record and I did have that duck
00:47:20
so I asked this afterwards to see you
00:47:23
know in a scenario like this but it
00:47:25
could also if I was talking to it I
00:47:27
could say hey which one has availability
00:47:28
this afternoon or tomorrow for dinner
00:47:31
and make the phone call for me like
00:47:33
Google Assistant does or any number of I
00:47:36
was thinking about next tasks this was
00:47:38
an incredibly powerful display in a 1.0
00:47:41
product I was thinking about what you
00:47:43
said last week and I thought back to the
00:47:46
music industry in
00:47:48
in the world of Napster
00:47:51
and what happened was there was a lot of
00:47:53
musicians I think Metallica being the
00:47:56
most famous One famously suing
00:47:59
Napster because it was like Hey listen
00:48:01
like you're allowing people to take my
00:48:03
content which they would otherwise pay
00:48:05
for there's economic damage that I could
00:48:07
measure that legal argument was
00:48:09
meaningful enough that ultimately
00:48:10
Napster was shut down now there were
00:48:12
other versions of that that folks
00:48:14
created including us at Winamp we
00:48:16
created a headless version of that but
00:48:18
if you translate that problem set here
00:48:21
is there a claim that Yelp can make in
00:48:24
this example
00:48:25
that they're losing money
00:48:27
that you know if you were going through
00:48:29
Google
00:48:31
or if you're going through their app
00:48:33
there's the sponsored link revenue and
00:48:35
the advertising Revenue that they would
00:48:37
have got that they wouldn't get from
00:48:38
here now that doesn't mean that chat GPT
00:48:40
can't figure that out
00:48:42
but it's those kinds of problems that
00:48:43
are going to be a little thorny in these
00:48:45
next few years that have to really get
00:48:48
figured out
00:48:52
reading every review on Yelp about duck
00:48:56
then you could write a blog post in
00:48:58
which you say many reviewers on Yelp say
00:49:01
that Bouchon is the best doc so the
00:49:03
question is like is GPT held to that
00:49:06
standard or exactly or something
00:49:08
different
00:49:09
and as linking to it is linking to it
00:49:11
enough this is the question that I'm
00:49:13
asking I don't know it should be because
00:49:15
I'll argue it should be because if you
00:49:17
look at the four-part test for fair use
00:49:18
which I had to go through because
00:49:20
blogging had the same issue we would
00:49:22
write a blog post and we would mention
00:49:24
Walt mossberg's review of a product in
00:49:26
somebody else's and then people would
00:49:27
say oh I don't need to read Walt
00:49:28
mossberg's in need of Wall Street
00:49:29
Journal subscription and we say well
00:49:31
we're doing an original work we're
00:49:32
comparing two or three different
00:49:35
you know human is comparing two or three
00:49:37
different reviews and we're adding
00:49:40
something to it it's a you know it's not
00:49:42
a uh it's not interfering with Walt
00:49:44
mossberg's ability to get subscribers in
00:49:46
the Wall Street Journal
00:49:47
but the effect on the potential Market
00:49:49
is one of the four tests and uh just
00:49:51
reading from Stanford's uh quote on fair
00:49:54
use another important fair use factor is
00:49:55
whether you're used deprives the
00:49:57
copyright owner of income or undermines
00:49:59
a new or potential market for the
00:50:01
copyrighted work depriving a copyright
00:50:04
owner of income is very likely to
00:50:06
trigger a lawsuit this is true even if
00:50:08
you are not competing directly with the
00:50:09
original work
00:50:11
and we'll put the link to Stanford here
00:50:13
this is the key issue and I would not
00:50:15
use Yelp in this example I would not
00:50:18
open the Yelp app Yelp get no Commerce
00:50:20
can Yelp would lose this so chat GPT and
00:50:23
all these Services must use citations of
00:50:26
where they got the original work they
00:50:27
must link to them and they must get
00:50:29
permission that's where this is all
00:50:30
going to shake out
00:50:31
but forget about permission I mean you
00:50:34
can't get a big enough data set if you
00:50:35
have to get permission in advance right
00:50:38
yeah
00:50:39
it's it's going to be the large data
00:50:41
sets quora Yelp
00:50:43
the App Store reviews Amazon's reviews
00:50:46
so there are large corpuses of data that
00:50:49
you would need like Craigslist has
00:50:50
famously never allowed anybody to scrape
00:50:52
Craigslist the amount of data inside
00:50:54
Craigslist as but one example of a data
00:50:56
set would be extraordinary to build chat
00:50:58
GPT on chatgpt is not allowed to because
00:51:01
as you brought up robots.txt last week
00:51:06
there's going to need to be an ai.txt
00:51:08
are you allowed to use my data set in Ai
00:51:10
and under and how will I be compensated
00:51:13
for it I'll allow you to use Craigslist
00:51:15
but you have to link to the original
00:51:16
post
00:51:18
and you have to note that the other gray
00:51:21
area that isn't there today but may
00:51:23
emerge is when section 230 gets
00:51:26
Rewritten because if they take the
00:51:28
protections away for the Facebook and
00:51:30
the Googles of the world for the
00:51:31
basically for being an algorithmic
00:51:33
publisher and saying an algorithm is
00:51:36
equivalent to a publisher
00:51:38
what it essentially saying is that an
00:51:40
algorithm is kind of like doing the work
00:51:41
of a human in a certain context and I
00:51:43
wonder whether that's also an angle here
00:51:45
which now this algorithm which today
00:51:47
David you use you said the example I
00:51:50
read all these blog posts I write
00:51:51
something
00:51:52
but if an algorithm does it maybe can
00:51:54
you then say no actually there was
00:51:56
intent there that's different than if a
00:51:58
human were to do it I don't know my
00:51:59
point is
00:52:01
very complicated issues that are going
00:52:03
to get sorted out and I think the
00:52:06
problem with the hype cycle
00:52:08
is that you're going to have to marry it
00:52:09
with an economic model for VCS to really
00:52:11
make money
00:52:12
and right now there's just too much
00:52:14
betting on the come so to the extent
00:52:15
you're going to invest it makes sense
00:52:17
that you put money into open AI because
00:52:19
that's safe
00:52:21
because the economic model of how you
00:52:23
make money for everybody else is so
00:52:24
unclear right oh it's clear actually I
00:52:27
have it for business
00:52:28
I just signed up for chat GPT premium
00:52:31
they had a survey that they shared on
00:52:34
their Discord server and I filled out
00:52:35
the survey and they did a price
00:52:36
Discovery survey uh Freeburg what's the
00:52:39
least you would pay the most you would
00:52:40
pay what would be too cheap of a price
00:52:42
for chat GPT Pro and what would be too
00:52:45
high of a price I put in like 50 bucks a
00:52:47
month was would be what I would pay but
00:52:49
I was just thinking imagine chat gbt
00:52:51
allowed you Friedberg to have a slack
00:52:53
Channel called research and you could go
00:52:55
in there or anytime you're in slack you
00:52:57
do slash chat or slash chat GPT and you
00:53:00
say slash chatgpt tell me you know what
00:53:03
are the venues available in which we did
00:53:06
this actually for
00:53:08
I did this for values for on summer I
00:53:10
could say what are the venues that seat
00:53:11
over 3 000 people in Vegas and it just
00:53:14
gave us the answer okay well that was
00:53:16
the job of uh of the local event planner
00:53:20
they had that list now you can pull that
00:53:22
list from a bunch of different sources I
00:53:25
mean what would you pay for that a lot
00:53:28
well I think one of the big things
00:53:30
that's happening is all the old business
00:53:33
models don't make sense anymore
00:53:36
in a world where the software is no
00:53:39
longer just doing what it's done for the
00:53:41
last 60 years which is what is
00:53:43
historically defined as information
00:53:45
retrieval so you have this kind of
00:53:47
hierarchical storage of data that you
00:53:51
have some index against and then you go
00:53:53
and you search and you pull data out and
00:53:55
then you present that data back to the
00:53:57
customer or the user of the software and
00:53:59
that's effectively been how
00:54:01
all kind of data
00:54:04
has been utilized in all systems for the
00:54:07
past 60 years in Computing largely what
00:54:11
we've really done is kind of built an
00:54:12
evolution of application layers or
00:54:14
software tools to interface with the
00:54:16
fetching of that data the retrieval of
00:54:18
that data and the display of that data
00:54:20
but what these systems are now doing
00:54:22
what AI type systems or machine Learning
00:54:24
Systems now do is the synthesis of that
00:54:27
data and the representation of some
00:54:30
synthesis of that data to you the user
00:54:32
in a way that doesn't necessarily look
00:54:35
anything like the original data that was
00:54:37
used to make that synthesis and that's
00:54:39
where business models like a Yelp for
00:54:41
example or like a web crawler that
00:54:44
crawls the web and then presents web
00:54:45
page directories to you those sorts of
00:54:48
models no longer make sense in a world
00:54:50
where the software the signal to noise
00:54:51
is now greater the signal is greater
00:54:53
than the noise in being able to present
00:54:55
to you a synthesis of that data and
00:54:58
basically resolve what your objective is
00:55:00
with your own consumption and
00:55:02
interpretation of that data which is how
00:55:04
you historically use these systems and I
00:55:07
think that's where there's you know
00:55:08
going back to the question of the hype
00:55:09
cycle
00:55:10
I don't think it's about being a hype
00:55:12
cycle I think it's about the the
00:55:13
investment opportunity against
00:55:15
fundamentally rewriting all compute
00:55:17
tools because if all compute tools
00:55:19
ultimately can use this capability in
00:55:22
their interface and in their modeling
00:55:24
then it very much changes everything and
00:55:26
one of the advantages that I think
00:55:27
businesses are going to latch onto which
00:55:30
we talked about historically is novelty
00:55:32
in their data in being able to build new
00:55:34
systems and new models
00:55:36
that aren't generally available example
00:55:39
in biotech and Pharma for example
00:55:42
having
00:55:43
screening results from from very
00:55:46
expensive uh experiments and running
00:55:48
lots of experiments and having a lot of
00:55:50
data against those experiments gives a
00:55:52
company an advantage
00:55:55
in being able to do things like drug
00:55:56
discovering we're going to talk about
00:55:57
that in a minute versus everyone using
00:56:00
publicly known screening libraries or
00:56:02
publicly available protein modeling
00:56:04
libraries and then screening against
00:56:06
those and then everyone's got the same
00:56:07
candidates and the same targets in the
00:56:09
same you know kind of clinical
00:56:10
objectives that they're going to try and
00:56:12
resolve from from that output so um so I
00:56:14
think novelty and data
00:56:16
is is one way that Advantage uh kind of
00:56:19
arises but really you know that's just
00:56:21
kind of you know where's there an edge
00:56:23
but fundamentally every business model
00:56:25
can and and will need to be Rewritten
00:56:27
that's
00:56:28
dependent on the historical
00:56:31
on the legacy of kind of information
00:56:33
retrieval as the core of what Computing
00:56:35
is is used to do sacks on my other
00:56:38
podcast I was having a discussion with
00:56:39
Molly about the legal profession
00:56:42
what impact would it be if chat GPT took
00:56:45
every court case every argument every
00:56:47
document and somebody took all of those
00:56:51
legal cases on the legal profession uh
00:56:55
and then the filing of a lawsuit the
00:56:57
defending of a lawsuit
00:56:58
public defenders prosecutors but what
00:57:02
data could you figure out like if and
00:57:04
like just to think in recent history
00:57:06
look at Chessa Boudin you could
00:57:08
literally take every case every argument
00:57:10
he did put it through it and say you
00:57:13
know versus an outcome in another state
00:57:14
and you could uh figure out what's
00:57:17
actually going on with this technology
00:57:19
what impact could this have on the legal
00:57:21
field that you are a non-practicing
00:57:23
attorney you have a legal degree I I
00:57:25
never practiced other than one summer at
00:57:28
a law firm but no I think did you pass
00:57:30
the bar was I did pass the bar yes yeah
00:57:32
yes I did try yes of course of course
00:57:35
yeah come on here
00:57:38
I went to Stanford dude
00:57:41
I may not have passed the bar but I know
00:57:44
a little [ __ ] enough to know that you
00:57:46
can't look I I I would be curious in
00:57:48
terms of a very common question that a
00:57:53
an Associated Law Firm would get asked
00:57:55
would be something like you know
00:57:56
summarize the legal precedence in favor
00:57:59
of X right and that you can imagine GPT
00:58:04
doing that like instantly now I think
00:58:06
that the question about that I think
00:58:08
there's two questions one is
00:58:10
can you prompt GPT in the right way to
00:58:12
get the answer you want and I think you
00:58:14
know tremath you shared a really
00:58:15
interesting video showing that people
00:58:17
are developing some skills around
00:58:19
knowing how to ask GPT questions
00:58:22
engineering away exact prompt
00:58:24
engineering why because GPT is a command
00:58:27
line interface so if you ask gbt a
00:58:29
simple question about what's the best
00:58:30
restaurant in you know Napa it knows how
00:58:33
to answer that but there are much more
00:58:35
complicated questions that you kind of
00:58:37
need to know how to prompt it in the
00:58:38
right way so it's not clear to me that a
00:58:41
command line interface is the best way
00:58:42
of doing that I could imagine apps
00:58:44
developing that create more of like a
00:58:45
GUI so we're an investor for example on
00:58:47
copy AI which is doing this for
00:58:49
copywriters and marketers helping them
00:58:51
write blog posts and emails and so you
00:58:55
know imagine putting that like you know
00:58:57
GUI on top of chat GPT they've already
00:59:00
been kind of doing this so I think
00:59:03
that's part of it I think the other part
00:59:04
of it is on the answer side
00:59:07
you know how accurate is it because in
00:59:11
some professions having 90 or 95 or 99
00:59:14
accuracy is okay but in other
00:59:17
professions you need six nines accuracy
00:59:19
meaning
00:59:21
99.9999 accuracy okay so I think for a
00:59:26
lawyer going into court you know you
00:59:29
probably need
00:59:30
I don't know I mean it depends on on the
00:59:32
the ticket versus a murder trial is two
00:59:35
very different yeah exactly so is 99
00:59:38
accuracy good enough is 95 accuracy good
00:59:41
enough I would say probably for a court
00:59:44
case 95 is probably not good enough I'm
00:59:46
not sure GPT is at even 95 yet
00:59:50
but could it be helpful like could could
00:59:52
the associates start with chat GPT get
00:59:55
an answer and then validate it probably
00:59:58
yeah if you had a bunch of Associates
01:00:00
bang on some law model for a year
01:00:04
again that's that reinforcement learning
01:00:06
we just talked about I think you'd get
01:00:08
Precision recall off the charts and it
01:00:10
would be perfect by the way just a cute
01:00:12
thing I don't know if you guys got this
01:00:14
email it came about an hour ago from
01:00:16
Reed Hoffman and Reed said to me hmoth I
01:00:19
I created fireside chat Bots a special
01:00:23
podcast mini-series where I will be
01:00:25
having a set of conversations with chat
01:00:27
GPT so you can go to YouTube by the way
01:00:30
and and see Reed having and he's a very
01:00:33
smart guy so this should be kind of cool
01:00:35
and by the way chat GPT will have an AI
01:00:37
generated voice powered by the
01:00:41
text-to-speech platform play.ht
01:00:44
go to YouTube if you want to see Reed
01:00:46
have a
01:00:47
kind of a conversation with chat GPT I
01:00:50
mean we have a conversation with the two
01:00:53
Davids every week what's the difference
01:00:54
we know how this is going to turn out
01:00:57
hey but actually so synthesizing to Moss
01:01:00
Point about reinforcement learning with
01:01:02
something you said jaycal in our chat
01:01:04
which I actually thought was pretty
01:01:06
smart well that's first yeah so I'm
01:01:08
gonna give you credit here because I
01:01:10
don't think you've said it on this this
01:01:12
episode which is you said that these
01:01:15
open AI capabilities are eventually
01:01:17
going to become commoditized or
01:01:18
certainly much more widely available I
01:01:21
don't know if that means that they'll be
01:01:22
totally commoditized or it'll be four
01:01:23
players but there'll be multiple players
01:01:25
that offer them and you said the real
01:01:27
Advantage will come from
01:01:29
applications that are able to get a hold
01:01:32
of proprietary data sets
01:01:34
and then use those proprietary data sets
01:01:36
to generate insights and then layering
01:01:38
on what you must said about
01:01:39
reinforcement learning if you can be the
01:01:41
first out there in a given vertical with
01:01:44
a proprietary data set and then you get
01:01:46
the advantage the mode of reinforcement
01:01:48
learning that would be the way to create
01:01:50
I think a sustainable business just to
01:01:52
build on what you said this week is the
01:01:54
JPMorgan conference
01:01:56
Friedberg mentioned it last week I had
01:01:59
dinner on Wednesday with this really
01:02:00
interesting company
01:02:01
based in Zurich and what they have is
01:02:05
basically a library of ligands right and
01:02:07
so these ligands are used as a substrate
01:02:10
to deliver all kinds of molecules inside
01:02:12
the body and what's interesting is that
01:02:14
they have a portfolio of like a thousand
01:02:16
of these but really what they have is
01:02:19
they have all the nuclear medicine about
01:02:21
whether it works so you know they're
01:02:24
they target glioblastoma glioblastoma
01:02:26
and so all of a sudden they can they can
01:02:28
say well this ligand can actually cross
01:02:30
The Blood Vein barrier and get to the
01:02:31
brain they have an entire data set of
01:02:34
that and a whole bunch of nuclear
01:02:35
imagery around that they have something
01:02:36
for Soft Cell carcinoma so then they
01:02:39
have that data set so to your point
01:02:41
that's really valuable because that's
01:02:43
real work that Google or Microsoft or
01:02:47
openai
01:02:49
won't do right and if you have that and
01:02:52
you bring it to the problem you can
01:02:54
probably make money you know there's a
01:02:56
business there to be built just building
01:02:58
on this conversation I just realized
01:03:00
like a great prompt engineer is going to
01:03:03
become a title and an actual skill the
01:03:05
ability to interface with these here you
01:03:07
go hey guys
01:03:11
Lanier somebody who is very good at
01:03:13
talk to these you know instances and and
01:03:16
maximizing the result for them and
01:03:19
refining the results for them just like
01:03:20
a detective who asks great questions
01:03:22
the that person is going to be 10 or 20
01:03:25
times more valuable they could be the
01:03:28
proverbial 10x engineer in the future of
01:03:31
as a as in a company and as we talk
01:03:34
about austerity and doing more with less
01:03:36
and the 80 less people running Twitter
01:03:38
now or Amazon laying off 18 000 people
01:03:41
Salesforce laying off 8 000 Facebook
01:03:43
laying off 10 and probably another 10
01:03:45
000.
01:03:46
what catalytic effect like could this
01:03:49
have we could be sitting here in three
01:03:51
or four or five years and instead of
01:03:53
running a company like Twitter with 80
01:03:54
less people maybe you could run it with
01:03:56
98 less people look I think
01:03:58
directionally it's the the right
01:04:00
statement I mean you know I've I've made
01:04:02
the statement a number of times that I
01:04:04
think we moved from this idea of
01:04:06
greater economy to narrator economy
01:04:08
where historically was kind of Labor
01:04:10
economy where humans use their physical
01:04:12
labor to do things than we were
01:04:14
knowledge workers we used our our brains
01:04:16
to to make things
01:04:19
and then ultimately we kind of I think
01:04:21
resolved to this narrator economy where
01:04:23
the the way that you kind of can State
01:04:25
intention and better manipulate the
01:04:27
tools to drive your intentional outcome
01:04:29
the more successful you're going to be
01:04:31
and you can kind of think about this as
01:04:32
being the artist of the past Da Vinci
01:04:34
was um what made him so good was he was
01:04:38
technically incredible at trying to
01:04:41
reproduce a photographic like imagery
01:04:44
using uh using paint and there's these
01:04:47
really great kind of Museum exhibits on
01:04:48
how he did it using these really
01:04:50
interesting kind of like split mirror
01:04:53
systems and then the the better the
01:04:56
artist of the 21st century the 20th
01:04:58
century was the best user of Adobe
01:05:00
Photoshop and that person is not
01:05:02
necessarily the best painter and the
01:05:04
artist of the 22nd century isn't going
01:05:07
to look like the Photoshop
01:05:08
expert and it's not going to look like
01:05:10
the the painter it's going to look like
01:05:12
something entirely different it could be
01:05:14
who's got the most creative imagination
01:05:16
in driving the software to drive new
01:05:18
outcomes and I think that the same
01:05:20
analogy can be used across every Market
01:05:21
in every industry however one thing to
01:05:24
note jaycal it's it's not about
01:05:26
austerity because the the Luddite
01:05:28
argument is when you have new tools and
01:05:31
you get more leverage from those tools
01:05:33
you have less work for people to do and
01:05:35
therefore everyone suffers the reality
01:05:37
is new work emerges and New
01:05:39
Opportunities emerge and we level up as
01:05:41
a species and when we level up we all
01:05:43
kind of fill the gaps and expand our
01:05:45
productivity and our capability set I
01:05:47
thought what J Cal was saying was more
01:05:49
that Google will be smaller didn't mean
01:05:51
that the pie wouldn't grow it's just
01:05:52
that that individual company is run
01:05:55
differently but there will be hundreds
01:05:56
of more companies or thousands more
01:05:58
Millions more yeah that's sort of I have
01:06:00
an actual punch-up for you yeah instead
01:06:03
of narrative it's the conductor economy
01:06:05
it's you're you're conducting a symphony
01:06:07
oh a bunch up
01:06:09
punch up there but I do think like we're
01:06:11
gonna there's gonna be somebody who's
01:06:12
sitting there like remember Tom Cruise a
01:06:14
Minority Report as a detective was
01:06:16
moving stuff around with a interface the
01:06:18
in yeah you know with the gloves and
01:06:20
everything this is kind of that
01:06:22
manifested you could even if you're not
01:06:24
an attorney you could say hey I want to
01:06:26
sue this company for copyright
01:06:27
infringement give me my best arguments
01:06:29
and then on the other side Say Hey I
01:06:31
want to know what the next three
01:06:32
features I should put into my product is
01:06:34
can you examine who are my top 20
01:06:36
competitors and then who have they hired
01:06:38
in the last six months and what are
01:06:39
those people talking about on Twitter
01:06:40
you could have this conductor you know
01:06:43
who becomes really good at that
01:06:46
um
01:06:47
yeah the leveling up that happens in the
01:06:50
book Enders game I think is a good
01:06:51
example of this where the guy goes
01:06:53
through the entire kind of ground up and
01:06:55
then ultimately he's commanding armies
01:06:57
of spaceships and space and his
01:07:00
orchestration of all of these armies is
01:07:02
actually the skill set that wins the war
01:07:04
yeah you predicted that there would be
01:07:07
like all these people that create these
01:07:08
next-gen forms of con content
01:07:10
but I think this Reid Hoffman thing
01:07:12
could be pretty cool like what if he
01:07:13
wins a Grammy for his you know computer
01:07:16
created podcast mini series that's one
01:07:19
thing the thing I'm really excited about
01:07:21
it's the first AI novel gonna get
01:07:23
published by a major publisher I think
01:07:24
it happens this year when's the first AI
01:07:26
Symphony gonna get performed by a major
01:07:28
Symphony Orchestra and when's the first
01:07:30
AI generated screenplay get turned into
01:07:32
an AI generated 3D movie that we all
01:07:34
watch and then the more exciting one I
01:07:36
think is when do we all get to make our
01:07:37
own AI video game where we instruct the
01:07:40
video game platform what world we want
01:07:41
to live in I don't think that's
01:07:42
happening for the next three or four
01:07:44
years but when it does I think
01:07:45
everyone's got these new immersive
01:07:46
environments that they can live in I
01:07:48
have a question when you know when I say
01:07:50
live in I mean video game wise yeah
01:07:51
sorry go ahead when you have when you
01:07:53
have these computer systems just like to
01:07:55
use a question of game theory for a
01:07:57
second they're these models are
01:07:59
iterating rapidly these are all
01:08:00
mathematical models so inherent in let's
01:08:03
just say this the perfect answer right
01:08:06
like if you had perfect Precision recall
01:08:09
foreign
01:08:11
models get there at a system-wide level
01:08:13
everybody is is sort of like they get to
01:08:15
the game theory optimal they're all at
01:08:18
Nash equilibrium right all these systems
01:08:20
working at the same time then the real
01:08:22
question would then be what the hell do
01:08:25
you do then because if you keep getting
01:08:27
the same answer if everybody then knows
01:08:28
how to ask the exact right question and
01:08:31
you start to go through these iterations
01:08:32
where you're like maybe there is a
01:08:34
dystopian hellscape where there are no
01:08:36
jobs maybe that's the Elon World which
01:08:39
is you can you can recursively
01:08:42
find a logical argument where there is
01:08:45
no job that's possible
01:08:47
right and now I'm not saying that that
01:08:49
path is the likely path but I'm saying
01:08:51
it is important to keep in mind that
01:08:52
that path of outcomes is still very
01:08:55
important to keep in the back of our
01:08:57
mind as we figure these things out well
01:08:58
Freeburg you know you were asking before
01:09:00
about this like you know will more work
01:09:03
be created of course artistic Pursuits
01:09:05
podcasting is a job now being an
01:09:07
influencer is a job yada yada new things
01:09:09
emerge in the world but here in the
01:09:11
United States in 1970 I'm looking at um
01:09:14
Fred I'm looking at the St Louis Fred
01:09:16
1970 26.4 percent of the country was
01:09:20
working in a factory was working in
01:09:22
manufacturing you want to guess what
01:09:24
that is in 2012
01:09:27
sorry what percentage it was 26 in 1970
01:09:32
and in 2015 when they stopped the
01:09:34
percentage in manufacturing United
01:09:35
States they discontinued this it was a
01:09:37
10. so it's possible we could just see
01:09:40
you know
01:09:41
the concept of office work the concept
01:09:44
of knowledge work is going to follow
01:09:46
pretty inevitable the path of
01:09:49
manufacturing that that seems like a
01:09:51
pretty logical Theory or no
01:09:54
I think we should move on but yes okay
01:09:57
so how would we like to ruin the show
01:09:59
now should we talk about Biden and uh
01:10:01
the documents and ruin the show with
01:10:03
political talk or should we talk about
01:10:07
since it's been such a great episode so
01:10:10
far what do we want to talk about next
01:10:12
again a couple of choices don't want to
01:10:13
talk about
01:10:16
um
01:10:18
give it to him
01:10:23
hold on a second we all know jaycal that
01:10:26
according to you when a president is in
01:10:29
possession of classified documents in
01:10:33
his home yes that apparently have been
01:10:35
taken an unauthorized manner basically
01:10:37
stolen he should have his home raided by
01:10:39
the FBI almost close close yeah if
01:10:44
so anyway
01:10:45
the Biden uh as of the taping of this
01:10:49
has now said there's a third batch of
01:10:52
classified documents this group I guess
01:10:55
there was one at an office one at a
01:10:57
library now this third group is in his
01:10:58
garage with his Corvette certainly not
01:11:01
looking good uh they say they say that
01:11:03
in his defense they say the garage was
01:11:05
locked meaning that uh you could use a
01:11:07
garage door opener too to open or close
01:11:10
that that's what it was locked when it
01:11:11
went closed so we're pretty much as
01:11:13
secure as the documents at Mar-A-Lago
01:11:15
same equivalency no no no actually I
01:11:18
mean just to be perfectly Fair the
01:11:20
documents in Mar-A-Lago were locked in a
01:11:21
basement the FBI came checked it out
01:11:23
said we'd like you to lock those up they
01:11:25
locked them up so got it a little safer
01:11:28
than maybe a little safer then
01:11:30
but functionally the same functional
01:11:33
functionally the same uh the only
01:11:34
difference here would be what sacks when
01:11:37
you look at these two cases
01:11:38
well that in one case mayor Garland is
01:11:42
appointed an independent Council to
01:11:43
investigate Trump and there's no such a
01:11:45
special counsel or investigator
01:11:47
appointed to investigate Biden I mean
01:11:49
yeah these things are functional put
01:11:51
somebody on it though
01:11:53
I don't think they've appointed a
01:11:55
special counsel yet no they did as of an
01:11:57
hour ago a special counsel was appointed
01:12:00
did that just happen yeah one hour ago
01:12:02
uh Robert her is his name okay I guess
01:12:04
there are real questions to look into
01:12:06
here the documents apparently were
01:12:08
removed twice why were they moved two
01:12:11
ordered that what was a classified
01:12:13
document doing in Biden's personal
01:12:15
Library what do the documents pertain to
01:12:19
do they touch on the Biden families
01:12:21
business dealings in Ukraine and China
01:12:23
so there are real things to look into
01:12:25
here but let me just take a step back
01:12:28
now that the last three presidential
01:12:31
candidates have been ensnared in these
01:12:33
classified document problems remember
01:12:36
it's Biden now and then Trump and
01:12:39
Hillary Clinton before Trump I think
01:12:42
it's time to step back and ask are we
01:12:45
over classifying documents I mean are we
01:12:48
fetishizing these documents are they all
01:12:50
really that sensitive it seems to me
01:12:52
that we have an over classification
01:12:54
problem meaning that ever since uh foia
01:12:58
was passed the Freedom of Information
01:12:59
Act
01:13:00
the government can avoid accountability
01:13:02
and and prying Eyes by simply labeling
01:13:05
any document is classified so
01:13:08
overclassification was a logical
01:13:09
response by the permanent government to
01:13:12
the Freedom of Information Act and now
01:13:14
it's gotten to the point where just
01:13:16
about everything handed to a president
01:13:18
or vice president is classified so I
01:13:21
think I can understand why they're all
01:13:23
making this mistake and I think a
01:13:26
compounding problem is that we never
01:13:27
declassify anything there's still all
01:13:29
these records from the Kennedy
01:13:31
assassination well that's crazy
01:13:33
classified they they and they're
01:13:35
supposed to have Declassified these the
01:13:37
CIA
01:13:38
keeps filibustering on the release of
01:13:42
the JFK assassination documents and
01:13:45
they've been told they have they have to
01:13:46
stop and they have to release them and
01:13:48
then they keep redacting stuff
01:13:53
conspiracy theorist here but what are
01:13:56
they trying to cover up I mean this is a
01:13:58
long time ago that's the only way to
01:13:59
interpret it
01:14:00
but even for more mundane documents
01:14:02
there are very few documents that need
01:14:04
to be classified after even say five
01:14:06
years you could argue that we should be
01:14:08
automatically declassifying them after
01:14:10
five years unless they go through a
01:14:11
process to get reclassified I mean I'd
01:14:14
say like just you guys in business I
01:14:17
know it's not government and business
01:14:19
how many of the documents that you deal
01:14:21
with are still sensitive are Trade
01:14:23
Secrets five years later
01:14:27
certainly 20 years later they're not
01:14:29
right like okay let's say like five
01:14:31
years I mean
01:14:32
the only documents in business that I
01:14:35
think I deal with that you could call
01:14:37
sensitive are the ones that pertain to
01:14:40
the company's future plans right because
01:14:42
you wouldn't want to compare the table
01:14:44
to get those yeah there's a handful of
01:14:46
things legal issues yeah even cat people
01:14:49
is not that sensitive Because by the
01:14:50
time you go public it's legally has to
01:14:52
be public yeah at some point like
01:14:54
there's a hundred people who have that I
01:14:55
mean it's exactly so like in business I
01:14:58
think our experience has been there's
01:14:59
very few documents that stay
01:15:02
sensitive that need to remain secret now
01:15:05
look if Biden or Trump or whatever
01:15:07
they're reviewing the schematics to the
01:15:10
javelin missile system or to you know
01:15:13
how we make our nuclear bombs or
01:15:15
something obviously that needs to say
01:15:16
secret forever but I don't believe our
01:15:18
politicians are reviewing those kinds of
01:15:20
documents well I mean we both I don't
01:15:23
really understand what it is that
01:15:24
they're reviewing why are they keeping
01:15:27
needs to be classified five years why
01:15:29
are they keeping them was the issue we
01:15:30
discussed previously we actually agreed
01:15:31
on that I think they're just keeping
01:15:33
mementos I think there's a simple
01:15:35
explanation for why they're keeping them
01:15:36
Jason which is that the that everything
01:15:40
is more classified and there's a zillion
01:15:42
documents and if you look like both
01:15:45
Biden and Trump these documents were
01:15:48
mixed in with a bunch of personal
01:15:49
effects and mementos my point is if you
01:15:52
work in government and handle documents
01:15:55
they're all classified
01:15:57
so I mean if the National Archive asks
01:15:59
for them back or you find them you
01:16:01
should just give them back I mean that
01:16:02
is that's going to wind up being the
01:16:04
rugby Trump didn't give them back fair
01:16:06
enough I did so that's the only
01:16:08
difference here well no no hold on the
01:16:10
FBI went to Trump's basement they looked
01:16:11
around they said put a lock on this they
01:16:13
seem to be okay with it initially then
01:16:15
maybe they changed their minds I don't
01:16:16
know I'm not defending Trump it's pretty
01:16:18
clear that he wouldn't give him back him
01:16:19
that was the point I'm making is that
01:16:21
now that Biden Trump and Hillary Clinton
01:16:24
have all been ensnared in this is it
01:16:26
time to rethink the fact that we're over
01:16:29
classifying so many documents I mean
01:16:32
just think about the incentives that
01:16:33
that we're creating for our politicians
01:16:36
okay just think about the incentives
01:16:37
number One never use email remember
01:16:40
Hillary Clinton the whole email server
01:16:42
yeah you got to be nuts to use email
01:16:43
number two never touch a document never
01:16:46
touch a document what never let anyone
01:16:48
hand you a document flush them down the
01:16:50
toilet
01:16:51
never let anyone hand you a documentary
01:16:55
if you're a politician an elected
01:16:58
official yeah the only time you should
01:17:00
ever be handling anything is going to a
01:17:01
clean room right you know make an
01:17:04
appointment go in there read something
01:17:05
don't take notes don't bring a camera
01:17:07
and then leave I mean this is no way to
01:17:10
run a government
01:17:11
it's crazy who does this benefit who
01:17:14
does this benefit it doesn't benefit our
01:17:16
elected officials it makes it almost
01:17:17
impossible for them to act like normal
01:17:19
people that's why it benefits the
01:17:22
Insiders the permanent government you're
01:17:24
missing the most important part about
01:17:25
the sex
01:17:26
this was if you want to go into
01:17:28
conspiracy theories this was a setup
01:17:30
Biden planted the documents here we go
01:17:33
so that we could create the false
01:17:34
equivalency
01:17:35
and start up Biden versus Trump 2024
01:17:38
this ensures that now Trump has
01:17:41
something to fight with Biden about but
01:17:43
and this is going to help Trump because
01:17:46
they're both tainted equally tainted yes
01:17:48
the same Source
01:17:51
in the new cycle no I think but I think
01:17:54
it's the opposite I think mayor Garland
01:17:55
now is going to have to drop the
01:17:58
prosecution against Trump for the stolen
01:18:00
documents or at least that part of what
01:18:02
they're investigating him for they might
01:18:04
still investigate him over January 6th
01:18:06
or something but they can't investigate
01:18:07
them
01:18:08
seems more sticky yeah I agree with that
01:18:10
actually I think it's going to be hard
01:18:11
to do but my point is like just think
01:18:13
about look but both sides are engaged in
01:18:15
hyper partisanship the way right now the
01:18:18
that the conservatives and the right
01:18:20
they're attacking Biden now for the same
01:18:23
thing that the left was attacking Trump
01:18:24
for my point is like just take a step
01:18:27
back and again think about the
01:18:29
incentives we're creating about how to
01:18:31
run our government you can't use email
01:18:32
and you can't touch documents
01:18:37
and by the way if you're don't ever go
01:18:40
into politics if you're a business
01:18:42
person because they'll investigate every
01:18:44
deal you ever did prior to getting into
01:18:47
politics
01:18:48
what are you going to do when you try to
01:18:50
get uh your treasury a position what's
01:18:53
going to be nuts you got to be nuts to
01:18:54
go so you're not going to take a
01:18:56
position
01:18:57
that the Washington insiders by which I
01:19:00
mean the permanent Washington
01:19:01
establishment I.E the Deep state they're
01:19:04
creating a system in which they're
01:19:06
running things and the elected officials
01:19:08
barely can operate like normal
01:19:10
functioning humans there interesting
01:19:14
I heard a great rumor this is total
01:19:17
gossip mongering oh here we go uh
01:19:21
that you know one of Ken Griffin's best
01:19:24
out
01:19:25
is to get DeSantis elected so that he
01:19:28
can become treasury secretary I mean Ken
01:19:30
Griffin would get that if he wanted it
01:19:33
and then he would be able to divest all
01:19:35
of Citadel tax-free so he would Mark the
01:19:38
market like 30 billion dollars which is
01:19:41
a genius way to go out now then it
01:19:43
occurred to me oh my God that is me and
01:19:46
Sax's path too
01:19:52
why would it be tax-free
01:19:54
when you get appointed to those branch
01:19:57
those senior posts you're allowed to
01:19:59
either stick it in a blind trust or you
01:20:01
can sell with no capital gains
01:20:04
yeah
01:20:06
what well because they want you they
01:20:08
want you to diverse
01:20:10
yes anything that presents a conflict
01:20:12
they want you to divest and so the
01:20:13
argument is if you have if you're forced
01:20:16
to divest it to enter government you
01:20:18
shouldn't be forcibly if I become mayor
01:20:20
of San Francisco or Austin
01:20:23
Secretary of Transportation Jay Cal you
01:20:26
can do that oh I'm qualified for that
01:20:27
I've take the bus I got an electric bike
01:20:30
to answer freeburg's point I think
01:20:31
Citadel Securities there's a lot of
01:20:34
folks that would buy that because that's
01:20:35
just a Securities trading business and
01:20:36
then Citadel the hedge fund probably
01:20:39
something like a big bulge bracket bank
01:20:40
or Blackstone probably Blackstone in
01:20:43
fact because now Blackstone can plug it
01:20:44
into a trillion dollar asset machine
01:20:46
it's a I think there would be buyers out
01:20:49
the door this is this is an incredible
01:20:51
grift now I know why it's not a grift at
01:20:54
all but it's a it's an incredible come
01:20:56
on man a cabinet position for No Cap
01:20:59
gains well that's not a grift that's
01:21:01
like those are the laws they force you
01:21:03
to sell everything
01:21:04
and then you do Public Schools I think
01:21:06
you're I think you're misusing the word
01:21:08
to continue to genuflect to the left
01:21:10
lane
01:21:11
you're being a little defensive
01:21:14
that or you're dumb
01:21:17
I'm not stupid man
01:21:19
that's when I see it you take a camera
01:21:21
position
01:21:24
where does that exist yes if you were
01:21:27
asked to serve look any normal person
01:21:29
who wants to serve in government you
01:21:31
can't use email and you can't touch a
01:21:33
document and every deal you've ever done
01:21:35
gets investigated yes yes why would you
01:21:39
want to do it I mean I'm saying that you
01:21:40
get to divest tax-free me think thou dot
01:21:44
protesteth too much David the fact that
01:21:46
you two know this rule
01:21:49
no I know I know it it's like a
01:21:51
well-known language I know this rich
01:21:53
people I looked up Grifton stage it
01:21:58
means that to engage in a petty or small
01:22:00
scale Swindle I don't think selling a 31
01:22:02
billion dollar engine no it's not a
01:22:04
combination of BlackRock and Blackstone
01:22:06
would be considered a petty small did
01:22:08
any of you guys watch the Madoff
01:22:10
uh series on Netflix
01:22:13
no was it good no oh my God it is so so
01:22:16
depressing I gotta say like just that
01:22:18
that Madoff series there is no glimmer
01:22:22
of light or hope or positivity or
01:22:26
recourse everyone is a victim everyone
01:22:28
suffers it is just so dark don't watch
01:22:31
it it's so depressing
01:22:34
is so depressing it's so good they all
01:22:36
kill themselves and die and like all the
01:22:39
ones one guy died of cancer person pick
01:22:42
hard I didn't realize all this the
01:22:43
trustee that went and got the money he
01:22:45
went and got money back from these
01:22:47
people who were 80 years old and retired
01:22:49
and had spent that money decades ago and
01:22:51
he sued them and took their homes away
01:22:52
from them and no one and and they had no
01:22:55
one they were part of the scam no one no
01:22:57
one won it was a brutal awful whole
01:23:00
thing yeah by the way that's going to be
01:23:03
really interesting as we enter this SPF
01:23:05
trial because 100
01:23:06
that that is the track that that is what
01:23:09
happens if you guys southern district of
01:23:11
new York said that this case is becoming
01:23:13
too big for them because all the places
01:23:15
that SPF said money all those uh pacts
01:23:18
and all those political donations before
01:23:20
they have to go and investigate where
01:23:23
that money went and see if they can get
01:23:25
it back and it's going to open up an
01:23:26
investigation into each one of these
01:23:27
campaign finance and election and kind
01:23:30
of interfering right now
01:23:32
propublica sorry propublica on the other
01:23:35
end of the spectrum I did watch this
01:23:37
weekend triangle of sadness have you
01:23:39
guys
01:23:41
okay sadness is great it's so dark to
01:23:45
The Davids uh listen this is one of the
01:23:48
it I thought it was it didn't pay off
01:23:49
the way I thought but this is one of the
01:23:51
best setups you'll see in a movie so
01:23:53
basically it's a bunch of people on an
01:23:56
on a luxury yacht so you have a bunch of
01:23:58
rich people as the guests then you have
01:24:01
the staff that interacts with them
01:24:04
and this is like mostly Caucasian and
01:24:07
then under in the bowels of the ship
01:24:09
what you see are Asian and black workers
01:24:11
that support them okay so the the in
01:24:14
some ways is a little bit of a microcosm
01:24:16
of the world Oh I thought you would say
01:24:18
a microcosm of something else and then
01:24:21
and then what happens is there's like a
01:24:22
shipwreck basically right oh don't spoil
01:24:25
it come on okay and so but no but I'll
01:24:27
just say so so the plot is you have this
01:24:31
Caucasian patriarchy
01:24:33
that that gets flips upside down because
01:24:36
after the Shipwreck the only person who
01:24:38
knows how to make a fire and catch the
01:24:39
fish is the Filipino woman who is in
01:24:41
charge of cleaning the toilets Social
01:24:43
Security comes in charge so now you flip
01:24:45
to this immigrant Matrix pretty great
01:24:48
meditation on class and um survival it's
01:24:51
it's pretty well done it didn't end well
01:24:53
I thought I thought okay yeah well it's
01:24:55
hard to wrap that one up
01:24:57
well you know what they say Boys still a
01:24:59
little and they throw you in jail still
01:25:00
a lot and they make you King
01:25:02
uh famous Bob Dylan quote uh all right
01:25:05
well this has been a great episode great
01:25:06
to see you besties uh austerity menu
01:25:09
tonight tremath uh what's on the
01:25:10
austerity menu tonight what are we doing
01:25:12
salad uh some tuna sandwiches no I think
01:25:16
uh I think Kirsten is doing uh I think
01:25:18
durad
01:25:20
yeah that's yeah that's a good fish
01:25:24
Jake and I once had a great rod in
01:25:27
Venice in Venice Venice
01:25:31
[Music]
01:25:32
so good I agree when it's done well the
01:25:35
durad kicks us there's only one way to
01:25:36
cook it to rod do you know what that is
01:25:39
you gotta you gotta it's the way they
01:25:42
did in Venice you got to cook the whole
01:25:43
fish yeah yeah okay and then after you
01:25:46
cook the fish then you de-bone it right
01:25:49
and uh right yeah absolutely that's the
01:25:51
way to do it that was back when sax and
01:25:53
I used to enjoy each other's company
01:25:56
this podcast made us into mortal enemies
01:25:59
check out I'm a little disappointed you
01:26:01
couldn't agree with my take on this
01:26:02
document Scandal instead of dunking in a
01:26:05
partisan way I tried to explain why it
01:26:07
was a problem of our whole political
01:26:09
system I like your theory I I I I think
01:26:12
you know you you keep
01:26:19
I just think your party Crystal a little
01:26:21
bit more
01:26:23
but you know compare your grift are we
01:26:25
gonna play Saturday after the wild card
01:26:26
game are you guys interested in playing
01:26:28
Saturday as well because I got the hall
01:26:29
pass I can I can do a game outside I
01:26:32
don't know I have to check with my boss
01:26:34
who's going to the are you guys walking
01:26:35
on sex are you gonna come to play poker
01:26:38
at that live stream thing for the day in
01:26:41
a way I doubt it no
01:26:43
oh he doesn't want to interact with
01:26:45
humans that does not uh play well in
01:26:47
confirmation hearings
01:26:49
you know the last time I did one of
01:26:51
those Alan Keating destroyed me on
01:26:53
camera
01:26:55
feet and every time he bluffed I folded
01:26:59
every time he had the the nuts I called
01:27:01
that's true
01:27:04
a shellacking a classic saxophone saving
01:27:08
thing is that what's going on here no no
01:27:10
no no it has to do with the cabinet
01:27:13
positions he doesn't need to be seen
01:27:14
recklessly gambling so badly you could
01:27:17
do any cabinet position sacks which one
01:27:19
would it be steak
01:27:29
I don't know that those like cabinet
01:27:32
positions are that important I mean they
01:27:34
run these giant bureaucracies that again
01:27:36
are are permanent you can't fire anyone
01:27:38
so if you can't fire a person to the
01:27:41
early report to you right
01:27:44
Trump's idea was like put a bunch of
01:27:46
Hardline CEO type people in charge have
01:27:49
them blow up these things and make them
01:27:50
more efficient it didn't really work did
01:27:52
it yeah well you know why as CEO is
01:27:54
actually in charge like Elon he walks in
01:27:57
if he doesn't like what you're doing
01:27:58
he'll just fire you you can't fire
01:28:00
anyone how do you manage them when they
01:28:02
don't have to listen to anything you say
01:28:04
that's our whole government right now
01:28:07
our cabinet heads are figureheads
01:28:10
for for these departments for these
01:28:12
Giants is that a no or is that a yes
01:28:15
you'd still take state
01:28:17
look at that well you know I think I
01:28:19
have another feeling
01:28:21
first what is the best ambassadorship
01:28:24
well you can't you can't digest
01:28:26
everything
01:28:28
you can tell which ambassadorship is the
01:28:30
best one based on how much they charge
01:28:31
for it yeah so I think I think London is
01:28:35
the most expensive I think that one is a
01:28:37
million for London 10 to 15. yeah 10 15
01:28:41
million
01:28:42
that's that's what Sax's fourth least
01:28:45
expensive home cost no no you have to
01:28:48
spend that every year to run it Jason
01:28:49
you only got you gotta pick for him you
01:28:52
could be the ambassador to guinea or the
01:28:54
ambassador to the UK you get the same
01:28:56
budget actually what's kind of funny is
01:28:57
I know two people who serve as
01:28:59
ambassadors under Trump and it was
01:29:01
really cheap to get those because no one
01:29:02
no one should be part of the Trump
01:29:04
Administration
01:29:06
two for one they were on they were on
01:29:09
fire sale after because of trump who
01:29:12
wants to be tainted but by the way one
01:29:14
of them and you can just beep out the
01:29:16
name
01:29:17
was telling me it was the best thing
01:29:19
because he ended up selling they already
01:29:20
did the all-time highs to take the job
01:29:22
he was like I gotta get out of all of
01:29:23
his stuff no but listen let me tell you
01:29:25
the the ambassadorships it was it was a
01:29:27
smart trade by those guys because
01:29:29
Ambassador is a lifetime title so your
01:29:31
Ambassador whatever no one remembers was
01:29:34
president when you were Ambassador no
01:29:35
one cares so you are going for the
01:29:37
Ambassador so stay I think it's fair I
01:29:39
think he's going to Ambassador I'm not
01:29:41
interested in ceremonial things I'm
01:29:44
interested in making an impact
01:29:45
and the problem with all these positions
01:29:48
I mean being a cabinet official is not
01:29:51
much different than being an ambassador
01:29:52
so you're gonna you're gonna enlist in
01:29:55
the navy no what what would it what has
01:29:58
a bigger
01:30:00
impacts or being an ambassador who's
01:30:03
more influential Saks on the all in pod
01:30:05
or beep as the ambassador of Sweden
01:30:08
actually all in pod is more
01:30:12
impactful by the way this is why I take
01:30:14
issue with your statement about the term
01:30:16
mainstream media because I think you
01:30:18
have become the mainstream media more
01:30:20
than most of the folks that are
01:30:21
Independent Media we're Independent
01:30:23
Media trust me it's Independence things
01:30:24
happen by thread and stop genuflecting
01:30:33
three episodes I just like saying the
01:30:35
word genuine you like genuflecting I
01:30:37
know because that is the top word of
01:30:38
2023 so far for me oh is that is
01:30:41
somebody doing an analysis with Chad
01:30:43
chapite of the words used here no but
01:30:44
sax brought that word up it was just so
01:30:46
it's a wonderful word it's it's not used
01:30:48
enough
01:30:49
all right everybody we'll see you next
01:30:51
time on the all-in podcast comments are
01:30:53
turned back on have at it you animals
01:30:56
love you guys love you besties bye
01:31:02
Rain Man
01:31:03
[Music]
01:31:16
besties
01:31:19
[Music]
01:31:24
foreign
01:31:27
[Music]
01:31:48
[Music]
