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Maria Karina Machado, welcome to the all-in interview and thank you for being here with me today and congratulations
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on winning the Nobel Peace Prize two weeks ago. Thank you very much, David. It's my pleasure.
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Today, you are in hiding. In October of 2023, you won the presidential primary
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election in Venezuela. Last March, you were disqualified from running in the
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general election. You appointed ultimately a surrogate Edmundo Gonzalez.
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After the vote for the general election for the presidency, your party presented evidence that claimed that you had won
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69 12% of the votes while Maduro through the National Electoral Council declared
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that he was the winner with 51% of the votes. This is the recap of a very long
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story of the Maduro regime and prior to that the Chavez regime and its effect on
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the people of Venezuela which you have tried to bring to light on the global stage. I was hoping to frame up the
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story for our audience who may not know the history of Venezuela very well by talking a little bit about the
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background of the country and how your childhood and your youth brought you to
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the stage that you're on today and just to provide a little bit of background and forgive me for my lengthy introduction but I think it's important
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for folks to understand that the discovery of oil in Venezuela in 1914 began an economic
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boom that really kicked off in 1922. Today, Venezuela has proven oil reserves of 300 billion barrels, the number one
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proven oil reserve in the world. Saudi Arabia is number two at 266 billion and
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the US is at 48 billion. Over the decades that followed the discovery of oil in Venezuela, there was initially an
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improvement in the economy through the investment by the seven sisters which are a group of seven oil companies and
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ultimately there was a transition in the country to nationalize oil production and that led to I think the story that
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brings us here today. So Maria Karina again thank you for being here. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about
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your youth. Well, first of all, I have to thank you because this is a unique decisive moment
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in Venezuela. We've been under this tyranny that has turned into a real criminal structure for 26 years that
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have turned, you know, what used to be one of the freest and richest countries in the Americas into one of the poorest
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and with a third of our population forced to flee. So imagine what a tragedy it shows that you know you can
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have huge unique natural endowments but if but that's not uh wealth you need
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talent you need institutions and you need freedom in order to turn that in
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the well-being of your people I I was born in an incredible family I I I thank
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the Lord because um we have a huge family like Latin American family like
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to be you together hanging around all the time. My father was an incredible
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industrial uh entrepreneur. He he is perhaps the smartest and most
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generous and honest individuals I've met in my life. And and he taught us the
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responsibility that comes with with that with your family values and the opportunity life gives you. And uh
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that's why we I only imagined my life in Venezuela and in freedom and and and we
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grew with that sense of responsibility. And uh but to be honest, I'm part of a
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generation that, you know, look politics with, you know, rejection or even
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contempt. I I said I would do anything in my life but politics. and um and and
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and and you know thought we thought that we had inherited democracy forever. We
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took it for granted and uh when Chavez arrived our lives were you know turned
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over and we realized that we we need to exercise citizenship if we wanted to
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live with freedom and that's how it all started. I never thought I would be sitting here with you talking about
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politics or democracy. I never thought I would be sitting on a podcast, but uh you know, life takes us
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down strange paths. What were the conditions in the country when Chavez
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came to power? What sort of life were you living? What were you seeing in the country that enabled Chavez to come to
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power? And what did he promise the people? Look, we had a period of of uh
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democracy that that brought Venezuela huge opportunities, you know, that uh
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widespread education and health. Unfortunately,
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uh we stopped short of a a real free economy. But um the state control not
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only of institutions but as you mentioned when the oil companies were you know owned turned into the
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government statized and and terrible incentives started being created and uh
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more and more people felt excluded from that you know wealth that the society
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Venezuelan society was getting or the country was getting because it was all in hands of the state. So we've never
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known but the state control economy. We've never always known or never seen
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anything but that kind of socialist uh procedures in place. When Travis
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arrived, we had gone through a political, you know, crisis and and and there were
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growing tensions and and, you know, planes are corruption in the political
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system, the party system. And also the price of oil had, you know, declined. It
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was around $8 a barrel. So he came with a populist uh narrative
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offering, you know, everyone to be equal and and to revenge against all those
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that were guilty of of poverty in the the country. And and you know, he
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aligned with actors such as Fidel Castro in Cuba and other international
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interests to grab, you know, those huge resources Venezuela has. and of course
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in a you know super strategic geographic position. So that's how he got there and
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that populist system turned into a democratic and then into criminal
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structure and this was 1999 that he came to power. Yes, that was in 1999 and at the time I think when he took
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office oil was at around $14 per barrel and a few years later oil spiked up to
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$100 per even. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Just to contextualize all of this, prior to his
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coming to power, the oil companies had been nationalized. So to your point, the government was really the economy and he
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promised this sort of equality and redistribution of value for all of the
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people of Venezuela. Is that what he promised? And the economy was really depressed because of the oil price being
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down. Yeah. and that he would take, you know, uh, resources from the rich, the
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companies, and he would distribute in in in poor quarters and and in in in in the
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most vulnerable uh parts of the of society. And at the end, we we learned
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the hard way that effectively this kind of socialist approach does get everyone
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equal in absolute mystery because there's nothing for free in life. I mean
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you you give away your choices, your decisions. It's supposedly to receive
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what actually what you are you are getting is into a slave uh situation in
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which the state you know decides for you and and only if you behave accordingly
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you will get what they had offered. So that's what we're seeing right now. Imagine this David the country that has
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the largest oil reserves in the world. I've been walking around those areas
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where that oil is actually beneath the ground and you see children eating from garbage.
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So, it's unbelievable. And I think to your point, and I was going to bring this up later, but there's such a powerful
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lesson to be learned for the West, for America, for Europe. Socialism is
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slavery. And I think the story that you bring to the world is one of slavery
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driven by this kind of socialist tyranny. There is no socialism without
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tyranny. But I just want to walk through that a little bit because as Chavez came to power, oil went up to $100 a barrel.
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Suddenly Venezuela's oil reserves made the country very wealthy. And he then engaged in a series of what some people
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have described to me as pro diplomacy where he gave away 300,000 barrels of
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oil per day to the Cubans at a 50% price discount in order to
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make the Cubans a surrogate in order to make other island nations in the Caribbean in the African island states
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surrogates. And that's how Venezuela expressed their political influence around the world was through the power
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of the oil reserves but in such a way that it excluded the people from
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participation. It seemed to be very centralized to the government. Maybe you could share a little bit about how folks
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in the government in the military under Chavez lived these incredible lives with
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wealth and luxury while the people were impoverished. Any anecdotes you could share on that? Yeah, sure. Look, this is
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a this is this is a side that's being the, you know, tried in Venezuela and elsewhere. You get into power through
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elections and then from within you start undermining every single democratic
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institution. You go against the media, you control the media and it's and and you can see this pattern in Venezuela.
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about how Chavez started, you know, pressing or or buying space and
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publicity and then buying the whole media outlets and through censorship and
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and through and changing the laws in order for to be very very risky to speak
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out and and then it went also with the private sector in every single area of
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production and of course it took the military as well. I mean all those that were the most competent uh individuals
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that were put aside and only those that were absolutely loyal to the regime were offended. So this is and you destroy
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married merit at and and so that anybody uh realizes that if you want to be part
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of of the system, if you want to work for the state or or the academy or in the military, it has nothing to do with
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your competence or knowledge or talent, but you have to be absolutely loyal and
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and lower your head to the regime. and and and this progressively imagine all
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the resources that were coming in because you you said something very important that some people do not realize. I mean the the the the barrel
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of oil was around 10 or eight when Chavis arrived. It went up to $150
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a barrel. Imagine the amount of resources. It was all the money in the world that they used effectively to buy
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loyal and and and to lobby around the world and to support ideological uh
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groups all over all over the the the western hemisphere and elsewhere. So and
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and these groups and these let's say these terms um get get in contact with
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each other. They exchange technology, they exchange information, they support
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each other in international forms. And that's why you know they get so powerful
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in their different uh areas and and and countries. On the other hand, what we
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had seen is that democracies and democratic movements in our in our side
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of the world are very isolated. We we don't help each other. We don't support each other as we should. I I think this
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is one of the great lessons that we've we've learned in these 20 years regarding the the the amount of
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resources. Look, there are estimates that the the the the the
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tag that the how Venezuela was robbed is over $2 trillion.
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Imagine what we're talking about in this 26 years. And uh and this was all either
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went for corruption as I said or for this kind of obscene uh fortunes this
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very few individuals have while 86% of our population nowadays lives in in
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poverty. The pensions in Venezuela are less than $1 a month. David $1 a month.
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Yeah. And so under Chavez, there was also this embracing or tieup
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with the drug trade, the FARC, Elnia. What is the alignment? What was the
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reason that the Chavez regime and now the Maduro regime aligns with the drug
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cartels given the oil wealth, given the international diplomatic ties because of
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the oil trade? Why is there also a drug tie up and what is the motivation and the incentive and drive there?
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Well, that that the Brock business isn't that new. Actually, it started before Charles arrived and many individuals in
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the military had had ties to them. But they realized it could be even much more
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uh uh the margins are even larger than than in oil and the greed in these
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individuals in this criminal structure is unlimited. It's infinite. So they not only went into drugs uh drug
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trafficking, they went into gold smuggling, arms smuggling, even human
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trafficking. I mean every single criminal network in the world has has
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you know converged into Venezuela that has been turned into a safe heaven for for the enemies of of of the West and
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and the enemies of the United States. Imagine I mean Karakas is three hours away from Miami. So having, you know, a
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satellite of Russia, of Iran operating in the heart of the Americas, it's it's
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something that, you know, this these regimes around the world had always dreamed of. Um even terrorist groups
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such as Hezbollah, Hamas uh to which Chavez and Maduro had given uh thousands
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of Venezuelan identities and passports to travel around freely around the world.
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So under Chavez, the GDP declined 70%. There was mass starvation, highest crime
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rates in the world, 90% poverty rate. Much of the stories and and anecdotes that you've shared have been reported
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publicly by international organizations. You are 32 years old when Chavez comes
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to power. 3 years later, you start a civil organization called
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Sumate. What were you doing when Chavez came to power professionally and what motivated you to get involved in the
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civic engagement that carried you forward to today? Well, I had been working in in the
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private uh auto parks and steel industry following my father's steps and um and
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also I was involved in a in um in an NGO that took over a children shelter for
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abandoned and abused children and and and you know I as I say I'd never
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thought I would get involved into politics but once this you know this individual arrives and it's evident for
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us that he was promoting the division of our country to create tensions to to divide even families even
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my own family. Uh the degree of of hatred of violence
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in in his speech the way he he wanted to um to create tensions among religions,
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races. It it we realized that that was going to turn hard to our country and a group of
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friends engineers decided that we will work to to gather petitions for a recall
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referendum. We thought this was going to be like a super easy task to get you know 6 million uh petitions in a few
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weeks and and and you know we we learned the hard way. It was it would required a
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totally new uh kind of citizen organization. Uh and
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that's how subat means join up. Uh finally was managed to gather the the
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petitions in just one day. People millions of people came out and signed these petitions. It's a long story.
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Chavez eventually uh committed fraud in in the referendum and and stayed in
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power and and got even more and more autotocratic as the years passed by.
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So were you doing Sumate full-time? Did that become your life's work at that point? And then how did you make the
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decision to run for the National Assembly which was in 2011? Fast forward 9 years after founding Sumate.
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Sumate was like an awakening for me and for many Venezuelans. We we realized
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that we could not rely our citizenship in political parties and that you cannot
00:18:06
be complaining about politics if you are not willing to do your part. And that's why you know it came a day when I say
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look you know I I I know how politics are doing how it works. I don't like it.
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So I cannot complain if I'm not willing to take my own steps. So I I took this fellowship to to to a program in of
00:18:28
leadership at Yale University and and it you know it was like seeing my life from
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above and I made that huge decision that I was going you know go for it. I was I
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was going to run for Congress. I had no political party. I had no experience.
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You know, everything was against me. Everybody told me, "You are crazy. You're never gonna win. You are never
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gonna get support. Nobody's going to support someone, you know, whose family has resources, who's a woman. You are
00:19:01
divorced. You are not a socialist. I mean, I have every single condition to
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fail." And uh I I I decided you know I
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I felt it was my responsibility. I could not you know
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get a afraid of and and and I had to trust my own you know feeling and it was
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impressive. you know, volunteers started, you know, contacting me and in
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a matter of months with no money whatsoever, no organization, no media,
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nothing uh I won I won the primaries and then I
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for the for the national uh uh um assembly. That was in 2010
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and and then I won the the election with the highest number of votes in in Venezuelan Congress history.
00:20:03
Amazing. How much of a role did the internet play? I worked at Google a long time ago and we always had this
00:20:09
conversation that the internet is going to create a democratization of
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information that you no longer had centralized control of information
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through media and in the case of Venezuela media that is effectively controlled by a government that wants to
00:20:25
stay in power. Did the internet play a role in giving you the ability to reach people around the country in 2010 to be
00:20:32
able to get elected? Absolutely. And not only that in 2010 I
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wouldn't have won if it wasn't for the internet right I mean no media outlet would dare to
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interview me and it was a way in which we could organize because we have no resources. Uh but further ahead, let me
00:20:50
tell you, I know how there are so many concerns about the use of technology by
00:20:57
by by the by bad guys and and and by by the regimes that are autocratic and
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Venezuela is, you know, a textbook case of how you get infiltrated, persecuted,
00:21:08
manipulation and so on. But if it wasn't for technology, we wouldn't be here at
00:21:15
the threshold of freedom. And and this is something that we need
00:21:21
to really highlight David. So you are like all great revolutionary
00:21:26
leaders speaking truth to power. You have a seat at the table now. You're in the National Assembly. And then in March
00:21:33
of 2014, you address the Organization of American States about Venezuela's human rights. And then a few days later you
00:21:40
were expelled from the assembly and then there was all this legal stuff that happened which we don't need to get into. But can you just frame up what
00:21:47
happened in that moment kind of what your narrative is on the transition where they said you can no longer be a
00:21:54
representative here anymore? Well, I had had a previous experience just one year before
00:22:01
because we went for a presidential election and we won against Maduro when
00:22:06
Chavez died and they they committed fraud and we weren't able to prove it
00:22:11
that that we have won. And that was in in in in April 2013 and and I went back
00:22:19
to the National Assembly. I stood up and I said, "Baduro is not the legitimate president. We won." And suddenly I hear
00:22:27
someone calling my name. I turn around and there was this member of the parliament of the terrorista regime that
00:22:35
hit me on in the face and she broke my nose in five pieces and uh and and and
00:22:43
we were locked in in Congress. I were thrown to the floor. I was kicked by
00:22:49
this and Cave was watching everything. He was the president of of the National Assembly. So this was, you know, an an
00:22:56
evidence that violence had gotten out of control. Imagine if you can do that in a in a t TV. It was seen on TV uh
00:23:05
throughout the the country and the world while they were shouting us. So next
00:23:11
year we started peaceful protest and and um the regime ordered young people that
00:23:19
were in the streets, you know, just with with with with plaques to be shot at. Uh
00:23:25
so I went to the OAS, organization of American States, and it was the first time Vaduro was accused of human rights
00:23:32
violations internationally. As soon as I came back, they they they you know just
00:23:38
ejected me from the National Assembly and by force prohibited me from going back into my seat.
00:23:45
So um it was a very hard moment but at the same time it was a great opportunity
00:23:52
because I realized that I needed to reach out personally
00:23:58
to to our country and create a totally new organization that promoted uh our
00:24:05
ideas and prepared for the next stage of of the struggle and this was in 2014. Can you share
00:24:13
about the Maduro transition? Maduro is on paper seemingly wouldn't have been
00:24:18
the natural successor to Chavez. He started out as a bus driver and then he was a union leader. It's unclear from
00:24:24
the outside what makes Maduro the the selected successor to Chavez. What is it
00:24:30
about him as a man, as a person, his character that made him the successor to the Chavez regime?
00:24:36
Well, Maduro was trained in Cuba. So, it was the Cubans who chose Maduro. It was a a very easy option for them. totally
00:24:45
loyal to the communist uh pastoral regime and um Budo has no no
00:24:54
you know no nothing restricts him from exercising you know violence and and and
00:25:01
and force for his uh ideas
00:25:06
and he certainly doesn't have chavis charisma uh nor not nor not the the degree of control in in the other groups
00:25:13
so they were creating you know, like a group of of of of uh individuals that
00:25:18
that the control of the of of the the system, the strategy, the the structure
00:25:25
that control the military, the financial enablers, uh the uh criminal networks
00:25:30
and the political sectors. And that's how he he went over taking more and more control and turning Venezuela, as I
00:25:37
mentioned before, into this safe heaven of criminal activities. and he himself
00:25:44
turned into the head of these structures when we heard about the deawa now about
00:25:49
the cartel loles the cartel of the sons I mean these are structures that we have denounced for years and we have tried
00:25:56
the word to understand that this was not a conventional dictatorship anymore
00:26:02
this is a you know a very complex structure that that you know produces
00:26:09
obscene amounts of resources uh not only for them but also for very dangerous
00:26:16
allies that come from very far such as the ones I mentioned before and terrorist groups and so on. They you
00:26:22
know they turned Venezuela into one of of the Russians main buyers of of uh
00:26:28
army and and and weapons and uh also one
00:26:34
of the the I would say the the major stronghold of the Iranian regime abroad.
00:26:40
I mean they use Venezuelan financial system to bypass financial sector,
00:26:46
financial sanctions and and they use our territory to to operate freely.
00:26:52
And what about China? Can you share a little bit about China's relationship
00:26:57
with Venezuelan leadership in Maduro and when that became an more kind of
00:27:03
intimate economic tie? Well, Venezuela turned out to be uh China's main uh um
00:27:11
debtor with over 60 60 billion uh
00:27:17
dollars in in depths that uh you know accounted for all kinds of different
00:27:23
projects that were never built and uh and and certainly China realized that
00:27:30
Venezuela's you know natural endowments are unique absolutely unique it strategical. Um, nonetheless, uh, the
00:27:38
the degree of corruption in the system and in this system is so so big that
00:27:43
China stopped funding Maduro about seven years ago and simply is getting, you
00:27:48
know, the oil to to pay for the debts that are still um pending. Um, I I I
00:27:57
believe China, you know, understands the the the
00:28:02
strategic importance Venezuela has also for its geographic location. Um, but but
00:28:09
has been more prudent because of the degree of of corruption that they have suffered from for Maduro and and the
00:28:16
regime. But there's al also the side of the if you know the intelligence uh
00:28:22
espionage uh and technology and satellites from China that have been installed in
00:28:29
Venezuela. That's a very important dimension for them as well. Venezuela is a country of I think 28
00:28:36
million people. By some estimates 8 million people have fled the country. Does that feel accurate to you? Can you
00:28:43
provide some anecdotes of why people leave, where they go, and what it's like in the country that's causing this mass
00:28:50
exodus of the population? Look, we are the nation of little over
00:28:55
30 million. I mean, this is a country where you have no information whatsoever. Imagine living in a country
00:29:02
where you know how many you are. You don't know what's the the size of your debt or your GDP or or inflation.
00:29:10
Nothing. It's a black box. you know that's that's that's why it's also a challenge in terms of what's coming up
00:29:16
but um roughly 9 million people have left it is you know around 30% of our
00:29:24
population imagine if a 30% of American people leave what it would
00:29:30
mean no it's devastating because we're seeing you know our young people our
00:29:35
children doctors engineers scientists nurses teachers
00:29:41
And of course they go because the situation from an economic perspective is is horrible but mostly because you
00:29:49
don't see a future in your country because you feel there's no possibility
00:29:55
to survive. So women that have left their young children back only to send
00:30:02
something for them to eat. Children that have left their parents alone. I I've met so many so many
00:30:10
grandparents that have not met their grandchildren yet and and they cry and hug me and ask me please please bring my
00:30:18
grandchildren back and we all know that the only possibility for that to happen is that we you know have a transition to
00:30:25
democracy and when that happens David you will see the day Maduro goes
00:30:31
hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans voluntarily coming back even though they
00:30:37
know it's a hard moment that we'll have you know to work really hard but we we
00:30:43
know the potential that unique potential and and you know they want to be part of
00:30:50
this it's much more than a political struggle for us it's an existential
00:30:55
struggle as a nation and also spiritual struggle as well a lot of people will say why don't they
00:31:02
go on the streets today can you talk a little bit about the intimid imidation
00:31:07
of the Maduro regime and why it's so difficult for people to rise up in the
00:31:12
way that we have seen other revolutions historically around the world. What keeps that from happening? What are the
00:31:18
mechanisms that are used to stay in power uh by the Maduro regime? Look, and and we have seen that in
00:31:24
Venezuela many times as well. I mean, we're talking about thousands of times in protests, in peaceful, you know,
00:31:32
rallies, in people going out by by tens of thousand and even hundreds of
00:31:37
thousands. But the regime has developed, this regime, Maduro, with the Cuban intelligence mechanisms to infiltrate
00:31:46
and anyone who goes out is either detained, harmed, killed, disappeared.
00:31:53
When we won the election last year in July 28, thousands of people went to the
00:31:58
streets while we were counting the votes, which I want to tell you a little bit more ahead. And you know in a matter
00:32:05
of 24 hours 2500 people were in prison including
00:32:11
young people, children, women that were even sexually assaulted, abused just
00:32:18
because they had gone out to the streets to peacefully claim for their right for
00:32:25
popular subject sovereignty to be respected. But they went beyond that, David. They went to the houses of our of
00:32:33
our of our activists that had been taking care of the election that that work as witnesses that take took care of
00:32:41
the town sheets and and and they took them away. And if they weren't there,
00:32:46
then they would grab their families, their mothers, their children, their
00:32:52
their couples, and uh and and every single person who even posted my picture
00:33:00
on their on their, you know, Instagram account for X account, whatever, they would go and take them as well. Uh so it
00:33:08
was so brutal uh that the interamerican commission of
00:33:13
of human rights label it as state terrorism and the factf finding mission
00:33:19
of the United Nation uh has said those are crimes against humanity. It was so
00:33:26
wide so systematic that what they wanted is to terrify
00:33:31
a society. So, we've had these last 15 months, a
00:33:37
period of of darkness as we've never seen before. I I was accused of terrorism, but it is
00:33:45
searching for me. He said I would spend the rest of my life in prison. Some people think it
00:33:52
would be even worse. Um but you know all my team which you know managed the
00:34:00
campaign this incredible campaign that took place are either in prison
00:34:06
or they had to leave the country. So this is a moment in which you know fear
00:34:13
uh has been you know imposed by by brutal force but that doesn't mean
00:34:20
that Van society is neutralized on the country as we managed to organize for an
00:34:27
incredible epic episode when we won the election. Now we have been organizing
00:34:33
underground and preparing for the day in which trans democracy will come and
00:34:40
people will make sure it is an orderly process. Maduro has publicly said many times that
00:34:49
you are a puppet of the west that the US and its allies are trying to interfere in Venezuelan politics because of their
00:34:55
economic interest in the Venezuelan oil reserves. I want to give you a moment to respond to those claims. I think you've
00:35:03
done an amazing job highlighting your motivation and the on the ground experience, but um can we counter or
00:35:10
have a conversation about this belief which by the way many have made because of the US involvement in Middle East and
00:35:16
Middle East politics and the US's absence of involvement in politics in countries that are not oil rich. Maybe
00:35:23
we could talk a little bit about the the importance of this for the West. not
00:35:28
just the economic interest but you know what else is motivating this and why is the US interested in supporting your
00:35:34
cause that claim is not very original I mean that's what all of these guys say to
00:35:40
anyone that speaks out if even if it's you know a a a union leader student or a
00:35:48
priest and frankly you know I couldn't care less what they say you know we know what
00:35:55
we are what we believe and what the people and why people trust us. We have
00:36:01
managed to build the strongest citizen movement in our country's history.
00:36:08
Starting on 2023 when Venezuela looked hopeless and divided and without a
00:36:15
chance to move ahead, we reached out to every single I went to every single
00:36:21
corner of my country. Look, I went with my car because I've been banned from living Venezuela for over 12 years. I'm
00:36:28
not even allowed to buy a a local flight ticket. So they thought they were hurting me, but actually they they gave
00:36:35
me that biggest opportunity to to to you know go through my country from one
00:36:41
point to the other and to talk to people to listen to learn to understand to get
00:36:48
really close in terms of what we are in what we believe to turn down those
00:36:54
barriers the regime had built to divide us and to find out that this is not about left or right or poor, black or
00:37:02
white. It is about human dignity. It's about respect, solidarity, cooperation,
00:37:08
freedom, and love and love, which is the strongest force that has brought us
00:37:15
together. You know, I've seen people that were close to the Chadista for years coming to me, crying, hugging me,
00:37:23
asking for forgiveness, and I said, "No, I have nothing to forgive." You know, we
00:37:28
have a common goal now. We have a common vision. We
00:37:34
all want our kids back all. And that's precisely what's happening right now.
00:37:39
So, look, Venezuela is for me the country with the largest opportunities
00:37:46
not only for the United States and the rest of the West. I mean, imagine, and
00:37:51
I'm not talking about our natural endowments, which are huge. We'll already address that. or infrastructure
00:37:56
or even our geographical position. It's our people what we have endured and the
00:38:02
way we have come together. And I've heard recently some people talking about that you know once Madura goes out
00:38:08
because it will leave soon you know there's this risk of of you know um
00:38:14
civil war or unrest. Give me a break. We're talking about a country where 90%
00:38:21
of the population we all want the same. There are no religious differences. There are no racial tensions, no social
00:38:29
or political differences. We all want the same. And we have fought so hard for
00:38:35
freedom that we are the ones who are guaranteed that this will be an orderly transition. And yes, we are close to the
00:38:42
United States values and culture. Yes, we are. We admire a nation that has
00:38:49
strong democratic institutions that feel proud for for their achievements, their
00:38:54
history, their legacy and so are we. So look, you know those kind of of
00:39:03
socialist rhetoric nowadays is useless in Venezuela. You
00:39:09
know, we have only known socialism and Venezuela today is a country I believe
00:39:15
that you know most people embrace open markets, respect for private property,
00:39:22
merit and collaboration. I want to just talk about the election and then I'd like to ask your view on
00:39:28
the United States today. But let's talk about the election. Two years ago you ran for president. You won the primary
00:39:36
with a resounding victory in October 26, 2023. Today, you're sitting in a basement. You're not in the office of
00:39:43
the president. Can we walk through what happened? What was that campaign like? How did you reach the people given that
00:39:49
you didn't have access to the state media and then maybe share a little bit about that primary victory and what
00:39:54
happened afterwards? Yeah, you know, we realized as I said in in January 2023
00:40:01
that we need needed to get, you know, trust back, you know, Venezuelan people,
00:40:08
trust ourselves and trust each other and and the primary had this incredible
00:40:16
opportunity of giving power to the people and not the political parties that used to decide, you know, which the
00:40:22
candidates were. So we decided to push for a primary and a primary in which the
00:40:28
regime would not get involved. Uh in in Venezuela in previous primaries process
00:40:35
the the the regime electoral uh or uh entity would organize primaries and we
00:40:41
said this time no way we're going to do it organized by citizens. It was a huge
00:40:48
challenge and a great risk and we believe the regime totally
00:40:54
underestimated us. They thought that perhaps, you know, 100 200,000 people
00:41:00
might appear and vote and so on and and that's why they they let it go, let it
00:41:06
run. And when October 22nd, you know, it's two years ago exactly, they came, I
00:41:13
was a candidate, there were 10 candidates, and I thought, well, it's a miracle that that it's just this is
00:41:19
happening as we as as as we're seeing it. At mid morning around 10 or 11 in the
00:41:25
morning, I start getting calls from all around the country saying, "We run out
00:41:30
of ballots." I said, "What do you mean? I mean, it's only 3 hours of of the process. What do you mean we run out of
00:41:37
ballots?" So many people showed up. Over 3 million Venezuelans. And it was such a
00:41:44
courageous act, David, because going out meant that you were voting for the opposition. No. So this was huge. I'm
00:41:53
talking about remote towns that we need to have river boats
00:41:59
in order to get the results and and also Venezuelans around the world because I
00:42:04
insisted and many of us that Venezuelans abroad our diaspora shouldn't be allowed to vote. So that day our country came
00:42:12
together. I I I I am humbled. I am grateful. I I
00:42:18
got 92% of the votes and and Maduro realized that, you know, they they
00:42:25
wouldn't be able to stop me. So, they they banned me from participating.
00:42:30
Confess to you that it was one of those really tough days in your life because
00:42:36
it was so unfair. I mean, I had a mandate, but you know, I could have
00:42:41
blown everything, but I decided, no, we have to keep on going, and we're gonna have find someone that is willing to
00:42:48
take my place. And once again, the regime underestimated us because they accepted a 74 year old diplomat that
00:42:57
nobody knew who he was. A super honest, loyal, intelligent, good person, but no
00:43:04
one knew who he was. This is Edmundo Gonzalez. Edmundo. Exactly. Edmundo Gonzale
00:43:11
elect. And uh I had a poster with his face. So I went all over the country
00:43:18
telling if you want to vote for me, you have to vote for him. And this is the guy. And uh at the same time, remember
00:43:26
we had had over 30 elections that progressively were more and more and more and more fraudulent. I mean, sorry.
00:43:33
Ed Mundo Gonzalez, he became your candidate in July of 2024, last summer, just to be clear, right?
00:43:39
In um in in May, May, the elections were in July. Yeah.
00:43:44
Okay. Elections were in July. So, imagine at this time, I mean, nobody knew who the candidate was
00:43:51
and we everybody knew we were facing the most fraudulent system in the world. I
00:43:58
mean the concept of of fraud collections that are been spreading around the world, it was born here in Venezuela
00:44:05
with the electronic machines and all the the stuff they've been creating around it. Fear, manipulation, altering their
00:44:14
register and so on. So we realized that we needed to use technology in our favor
00:44:21
and that's why we managed to create a legion
00:44:27
of volunteers. We trained them without the regime noticing that we were training them.
00:44:34
There were 5,000 uh sessions in person and over 300,000 people trained by the
00:44:41
internet. We develop apps for for seller
00:44:47
phones in which you know we will monitor every single polling station around the
00:44:53
the country. We How many people did you recruit to this legion for the ballot monitoring?
00:45:00
It ended up being more than 1 million volunteers. Everyone with a specific
00:45:06
task. David, we had no money. We could not print flyers or posters. You know
00:45:14
how much was our uh publicity budget?
00:45:19
Zero. We didn't pay for one ad. Nothing.
00:45:25
When we went around the countries and we stayed in hotels,
00:45:31
the regime would come the next day and close a hotel. If we went and stopped in the street to
00:45:37
to buy some food, then they will punish the the the restaurant or or the snack
00:45:43
place. I mean, they they blocked streets. They they got our people in in
00:45:49
prison, persecuted those that were in control of the electoral and and
00:45:54
organization departments. I mean, this was huge. But they turned this into an epic
00:46:01
and and citizens decided that it was going to be their own epic, their own
00:46:06
victory. So we train all these people with our diaspora. We we we had this app
00:46:15
uh designed and we knew and this is a very important
00:46:21
part that we had to prove our victory for the first time. We needed to prove
00:46:29
the results. So we designed a a system
00:46:34
through which we would collect the original poly sheets. We would scan them
00:46:41
and we will publish them in a digitized web page super robust for the whole
00:46:47
world to see. And in order to do this, imagine we are in a country where 60% of our territory
00:46:54
doesn't have access to the internet or even cellular phones. So we needed to
00:47:00
geotoptimize, you know, process h centers to process the the physical sheets and we did that.
00:47:09
We smuggled Starlink and uh antennas into the country, generators,
00:47:16
laptops, cell phones, and without origin noticing it, we we we installed these
00:47:24
130 operational places. And in less than 24 hours we were able to prove our
00:47:31
victory with the you know the images original images of the talifits being
00:47:37
seen and scrutinized by the whole world. They were audited by over 20 different
00:47:43
independent technicians and universities and they all concluded that those were the real
00:47:50
results. So to be honest, I think we do have set a new standard for electoral
00:47:56
electoral integrity, not only in dictatorships, even in even for democracies.
00:48:02
And the the data that you shared showed that you won a resounding victory. Your
00:48:08
party won the the presidency and Maduro declared himself the winner.
00:48:13
Since then, he's issued a warrant for your arrest.
00:48:18
What is next for you? What is next for the country? Look, it's been such a long way. I mean,
00:48:25
it's have so many colleagues and friends that are currently in jail
00:48:33
that are very far away or even killed. I mean, this has been very painful, but at
00:48:40
the same time, we have grown so much. I mean, we're a different society, but
00:48:45
also we're different and better individuals. We've learned the value of living in
00:48:53
democracy and being free. And uh now we've come such a long way.
00:49:00
We defeated Maduro in the hearts and minds of the Venezuelan people. We defeated Maduro in the ballot boxes. We
00:49:08
defeated Maduro in the spirit of Venezuela. And now the only thing he's
00:49:13
got left is his, you know, violence. and a few uh top brass individuals and
00:49:20
financial enablers that have terrified those uh in the military that still are
00:49:27
you know supporting him. But you know these last 15 months of resilience and
00:49:32
resistance have created more and more pressure from within and now finally
00:49:38
we're seeing a reaction from abroad. For years, we have asked the world to
00:49:44
understand that this is a criminal structure. And as such, in order to to
00:49:49
break it down, you need to cut the inflows of criminal money that comes from drug trafficking, from gold
00:49:55
smuggling, for human trafficking, or or the black market of oil. You need to cut those inflows. And that's precisely what
00:50:02
President Trump is doing right now. and and and we are very grateful to see this
00:50:08
uh international coalition that is applying you know the law the enforcement of the law on this criminal
00:50:15
structure which is what we need. I mean Badudo for so so this long years have
00:50:21
felt uh that he could you know disappear, kill, torture people with absolute zero zero cost. the timing of
00:50:30
impunity has ended and um and and you know I I believe the regime is its
00:50:36
weakest position ever. They understand this is serious. there is a you know a real threat and we are seeing defections
00:50:45
uh betrayals and more and more people from within the regime reaching to us
00:50:51
and what we're saying is look we had offer a possibility of a negotiated
00:50:56
transition and now that that day is closed we offer you know everybody that
00:51:02
decide to step on the side of the law that they can be part of this huge
00:51:08
transformation of Venezuela. Can you highlight the moments of the
00:51:14
American presidencies, the American administrations, Obama, Biden, Donald Trump, and how they
00:51:22
have supported the cause and what's different today? Do have to say that, you know, we've had
00:51:29
bipartisan support and you see that in Congress even yesterday, you know, and and and because they're, you know,
00:51:36
sensible individuals in the Senate, in the House that understand
00:51:42
that it's, you know, it's for humanitarian reasons because of its millions of lives at risk in Minnesota,
00:51:48
but it's also for the national security of the United States. I think that's,
00:51:54
you know, it's pretty well proven at this point. Um, but so far, um, there
00:52:01
were only words, only statements and no actions. And and when you face a criminal regime, I you have to
00:52:08
understand that you know the way to reach peace is through freedom and freedom requires strength and that is
00:52:14
moral strength, spiritual strength and physical strength and and that's what
00:52:19
finally the regime is facing at this point. So you know we're very we are very very grateful to President Trump
00:52:27
and his administration for you know the visionary and decisive way he has act calling things by their names. It
00:52:33
requires courage. Not a lot of people were willing to do that before. So now
00:52:39
look, we are prepared for an orderly transition. We know what
00:52:46
we need to do in the first 100 hours, 100 days to take control of the
00:52:53
institutions and our territory. Um, Venezuela has been destroyed in
00:52:59
every possible way you see it in our economy, in our security, in our
00:53:04
national sovereignty, in in in you know in the public services, basic services that people require. But our people are
00:53:14
tougher and stronger than ever and we are determined to be free. So, this is
00:53:22
going to be like it's going to be a rebirth. We're going to turn Venezuela from the criminal hub of the Americas
00:53:30
into the energy hub, the technology hub and the democracy hub of the Americas.
00:53:38
And and it we will need to do that from from from scratch, from ruins. But uh
00:53:44
but you know we have our huge incredible diaspora that are willing to come back and imagine you know with all the
00:53:51
resources we have you know the energy that the capacity to to produce energy
00:53:56
not only natural gas and hydroele electricity solar and so on you know we
00:54:01
can we're going to be so attractive for uh uh for those who want to invest as I
00:54:09
said not only in energy but in technology AI data centers. I mean, we have everything
00:54:17
to turn Venezuela into a bright and and proud nation very fast.
00:54:23
And before we wrap, Maria Karina, I'd love to just ask you an important question, which is we are seeing a rise
00:54:29
of interest in socialism that's unprecedented in the history of the United States, largely fueled by what
00:54:36
some would argue is a a challenging income growth situation, student loan
00:54:42
debt. I mean, it's a very different situation than Venezuela, but many middle class American children are
00:54:48
finding themselves unable to progress like every generation before them. in US history. They cannot seem to create a
00:54:55
better lives for themselves than their parents. And as a result, we are seeing in cities
00:55:00
like New York, Zoran Mdani being the favorite to become mayor and
00:55:06
presidential candidates being discussed that maybe also have a socialist agenda and socialist interest. I want to give
00:55:12
you an opportunity to speak to the youth of America about the lessons learned
00:55:17
with what Venezuela has gone through with its socialist cycle here and maybe
00:55:23
something that you could share that could help them think a little bit more differently about the choices ahead for
00:55:29
the American democracy. Yes. Um, we went through the same
00:55:34
experience, you know, 26 years ago. People would warn us and say, you know,
00:55:41
watch out what socialism and communism could bring to you. And we would always
00:55:46
answer, Venezuela is not Cuba. That's not going to happen to us. And at the end, look what, you know, the disaster
00:55:53
devastation. We had, you know, 9 million of our people spread around the world.
00:55:58
and and the fact is that you can only live in peace and prosperity if you have
00:56:04
freedom and and democracy. That's our lesson. And and those who offer to give
00:56:11
you for free what you need to get on your own with hard work at the end end
00:56:16
up you know charging you with the the most valuable asset you could have which
00:56:23
is your freedom your capacity to decide and to make your own decisions and um
00:56:30
that's that's a great lesson I mean when you have the state on top of you h that means whole society will probably be we
00:56:38
equal in misery and poverty. So I do trust
00:56:44
the the American institutions and the American spirit and American dream. And I think these temptations come
00:56:52
uh many times and they they are good because they make societies reflect on
00:56:58
what they have and understand that previous freedom and democracy ought to
00:57:04
be defended, taken care of every single day of your life. when you lose it, it's very hard
00:57:11
to get it back. And and that's a lesson we're going to give to our children and our grandchildren. And I I believe uh
00:57:20
the American people values what they have. And I hope that you know having so
00:57:25
many informed people around you can also get you an idea of of of of the threats
00:57:32
and dangers of these systems. Maria Karina, courage is speaking truth
00:57:38
to power. I cannot think of a more powerful regime to speak truth to and I
00:57:45
thank you for your courage, for your leadership. Congratulations on winning the Nobel Peace Prize and thank you for joining me here today.
00:57:52
Thank you. It was a pleasure and I look forward to hosting you in a free Venezuela where you will see, you know,
00:57:58
great investment, great prosperity and also peace and freedom from Venezuela to
00:58:04
the rest of the region. Thank you so much, David. Thank you.
00:58:09
[Music] I'm going all in.
