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hey Coleman how's it going hey Coleman
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welcome to the show hey how's it going
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pleasure have you ever heard of the
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show yeah I have I I'm actually a fan my
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girlfriend introduced me to the show
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like two years ago and I've been a fan
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ever since great to meet you apparently
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like many women she has like a she has a
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legit concerning obsession with Sachs
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but also don't say it oh my God
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what we're tilted this those saxs fans
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are crazy end the episode end
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the my God oh my God
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way to Goan fit right in here all right
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here we go let me let me this is are
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cold open folks I'm sorry I let me just
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psychologically explore this before we
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get into the real substance of it why
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does she like him so much I don't
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understand this by the way I think you
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guys missed the second half of my
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statement I said sax and shamama oh
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okay great let's let's get thank you
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thankk God okay here we
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go 3
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two let your winners
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ride Rainman
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David and instead we open source it to
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the fans and they've just gone
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[Music]
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crazy all right everybody welcome back
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to the Allin
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podcast we have a very full docket today
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I thought we'd start with something
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pretty crazy there was a really weird uh
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moment last week Ted threw one of its
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speakers under the bus so we decided to
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have him on to talk about the experience
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the second time they've done it at least
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they did to Sarah Silverman for doing
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comedy at Ted because people at Ted are
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a bunch of virtual signaling lunatics
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including some of my friends who go but
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Coleman Hughes if you don't know him is
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a writer and podcaster he has a a pretty
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popular podcast called conversations
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with Coleman and he did a talk which I
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encourage everybody to watch at Ted and
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it's titled a case for color blindness
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uh we all watched it it's very power ful
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talk and something weird
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happened Coleman welcome to the program
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and um maybe you could just share with
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the audience how you wound up speaking
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at Ted what the content uh of your talk
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was briefly and then the bizarre
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reaction when they try to ban and kill
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your talk post you giving it yeah so
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first really glad to be on guys I'm a
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fan of the Pod so I'll give the short
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version here if you want long version
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you can go to the Free Press where I
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wrote a big uh summary of of what
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happened there basically what happened
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is Chris Anderson invited me to give a
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TED Talk and uh I chose the subject of
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my upcoming book which is coming out in
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February called the end of race politics
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and the argument is just essentially
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colorblindness this is the idea that you
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want to treat people without regard to
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race both in your personal lives and in
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our public policy and wherever we have
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policies that are meant to collect and
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help the most disadvantaged we we should
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preferentially use class as a variable
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rather than race that's that's my talk
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in a
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nutshell so I prepared the talk with the
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Ted team I got their feedback edited
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curated Etc got up there in April gave
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the talk 95% of the people in the
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audience it was quite well well received
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whether or not they agreed with every
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point it was they well within the bounds
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of acceptable discourse there was a very
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small minority on stage I could see that
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was physically upset by my talk on stage
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I could see this on stage yet in the
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moment but I mean I'm talking five
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people in a crowd of almost
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2,000 so I expected that because you
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know color blindness is not invogue
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today on on the left amongst
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progressives it's really the idea nonr
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and so I was expecting to field some
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push back and I I talked to some critics
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and so forth but what happened is what
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began as just a few people
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upset began to spiral into a kind of
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internal staff meltdown at Ted so this
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group called black at Ted asked to speak
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with me I agreed and then they said
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actually we don't want to talk to you
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and they are an employee group at Ted
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after the conference Chris emailed me
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and said look I'm getting I'm getting a
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lot of blowback here internally there
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are people saying we shouldn't release
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your at all and then over the course of
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the next month they came up with a
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variety of sort of Creative Solutions
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about how to release my talk in a way
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that would appease the woke staffers
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that really didn't want it to be
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released at all and at this point I had
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to start kind of sticking up for myself
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so first they wanted to attach uh like a
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debate to the end of my talk and release
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it as one video which I felt would
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really send the wrong message it would
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send the message that like this idea
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can't be heard without the opposing
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persec did they tell you what was
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problematic about your talk to term well
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like what was the problem with the talk
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well there are no factual problems at
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past the factchecking team there were
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there were no substantive issues with
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the talk the problem was that it op the
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staff it upset the staff that was the
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language that was used it upset certain
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people in the staff got and and those
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people are
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black um probably most were you know I I
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tried to actually have face to face
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conversations with uh some of these
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folks I only got to to uh talk to one
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woman so presumably many of them were
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black but possibly not all okay what was
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the what do you perceive was the problem
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with your talk or what they perceived
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the problem with your talk is so the the
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last day of the Ted conference they have
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a town hall people from the audience
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come and give feedback the town hall
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opened with two people denouncing my
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talk back to back the first said that it
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was racist and dangerous and
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irresponsible and the second guy who's
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actually a guy I
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knew he said that I was willing to have
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a slide back into the days of separate
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but equal which was totally the opposite
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of my talk and I I implore anyone to
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just go online and watch it Go on
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YouTube decide for yourself whether
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these criticisms bear any resemblance to
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to reality but that was the idea that
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the talk is racist that you know I'm I'm
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some kind of pro Jim Crow person is
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really really deranged kind of
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criticisms your your talk is up on Ted's
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website and on YouTube right but part of
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the controversy was that the number of
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views seemed to be pretty suppressed was
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that discussed with Chris when you
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talked with him or do you have a point
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of view on the suppression of the
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promotion of the video even though they
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put it out there and how that's affected
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you know how widespread the video has
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been made available to folks yeah so
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in in my final call with Chris he sort
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of presented this idea about how to
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release it and he sold it to me as a way
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to amplify my talk which I think was
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kind of some spin he was in a tough
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position caught between me and his
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employees we ultimately decided they
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would release the talk and then two
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weeks later they'd release a debate
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between myself and this guy Jamal Buie
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who was a New York Times
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columnist um so the talk came out on
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Ted's website the debate came out and I
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kind of mentally uh had about the whole
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situation until Tim Urban who was a
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popular blogger who's actually given the
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yeah spoke at all in Summit last year
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yeah oh that's great yeah Tim is great
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he he's also given the most viewed Ted
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Talk of all time on
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YouTube Tim noticed that my talk just
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had a really absurdly low view count
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like an implausibly low view count on on
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Ted's website in mid August he tweeted
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this and that he believed they were
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intentionally under promoting my talk I
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checked yeah yeah I checked and all of
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the of the five talks surrounding mine
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they all had between you know 450,000
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views and 800,000 views that was the
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full range mine had
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73,000 right so 16% of the low end of
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the range of all the talks released
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around mine so when that happened I I
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felt that Ted had kind of reneged on its
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end of our bargain and that's when um
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Barry Weiss got wind of it and I I went
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public just just to be clear you're
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saying that the condition for releasing
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your your Ted Talk The Bargain you
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struck with Chris was that you would do
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a debate with someone in a separate
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video and that you had to do the debate
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in order to have your Ted Talk released
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yes wow so yeah that that's what that
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that was the end of the negotiation the
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beginning of the negotiation was trying
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to get me to release those things as one
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video and I said hell no and then next
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we're going to release them as separate
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videos on the same day I said hell no
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cuz that dilutes it and then we agreed
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on a twoe separation between the two in
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your experience with Ted and your
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conversations around this matter are you
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aware of other videos that Ted has
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refused to put out that were live Ted
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Talk at the Ted conference and they were
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deemed to be too controversial to be
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released publicly definitely not this
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year I can't I I you know I don't know
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the whole history of Ted but nothing
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like that this year for sure we can go
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one of two ways with this freedberg do
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you want to talk about the substance of
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the talk or maybe dig into the culture
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of Ted I want to talk about the
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substance of the talk in a minute but I
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think it's worth just sharing my
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experience with you I started going to
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Ted as an attendee around I believe 2007
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and I went every year until 2019 I got a
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lot from the community I got a lot from
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the conference every year it was an
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incredible week of my life every year it
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was a big deal for me um in the early
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days I would go there and I saw New
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Perspectives on technology on the
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environment on um social change on all
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these like topics that were not in my
00:10:04
day-to-day that I thought were really
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exciting and a inspiring and that really
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was kind of this ethos of Ted back in
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the day before Chris Anderson took it
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over was to kind of you know inspire
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people with new ideas over the years
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that I attended Ted I began to observe
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that many of the talks and I spoke about
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this very briefly last week as part of
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my motivation and interest in doing the
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all-in summit this year but that over
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time many of the talks began to take a
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bit of a social justice turn
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in the sense that there was almost a
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lecturing happening as
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curated by the editorial process at Ted
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When Donald Trump was elected president
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in 2016 needless to say most of the
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audience of Ted was not on that side of
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the voting block and what dis Disturbed
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me the most was that in the three years
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after he was elected every Ted
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conference had plenty of subjects plenty
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of talks and plenty of conversations
00:11:00
about why Society is falling apart why
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Donald Trump is a key root cause of that
00:11:05
why so much of him and what he stands
00:11:06
for and the people behind him are unjust
00:11:09
and evil in all these ways there wasn't
00:11:12
a single talk that provided a
00:11:14
perspective of why anyone voted for him
00:11:16
there was no one that shared a point of
00:11:17
view about why this person had come to
00:11:21
gather more than half the votes or half
00:11:23
the votes in the country and I thought
00:11:25
that was such an important topic to
00:11:27
better understand that I was so shocked
00:11:28
that was never part of the discourse at
00:11:30
Ted I'm not a republican I'm not a
00:11:33
conservative and I'm not against social
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justice issues but I saw Ted over time
00:11:39
get overtaken with this kind of very
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one-sided almost bullying type of
00:11:43
approach to this is the narrative we
00:11:46
want to sell Society on rather than have
00:11:48
a true discourse uh about the matter I
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sent an um a a survey a response in 2019
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after I went to Ted and I Saidi never
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coming back again this year did it for
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me I'm over it and there was such a lack
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of diversity of points of view at this
00:12:02
conference and so much of this has
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veered away from inspiring topics and
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inspiring talks and it became all about
00:12:08
fear of Technology it became about
00:12:10
social injustice caused by one side of
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the political spectrum and it really
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angered and upset me that everyone had
00:12:16
become so close-minded at Ted and I sent
00:12:19
this note and Chris Anderson reached out
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to me and said will you have a
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conversation I went on a zoom call with
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him and I spoke with him for an hour and
00:12:25
I shared all of this and I said he's
00:12:26
missing so much of what's Happening
00:12:27
that's optimis about the world it's
00:12:29
optimistic about technology that's
00:12:31
different ways of looking at things and
00:12:33
he's kind of created this very
00:12:35
narrow-minded view on the topics that
00:12:37
they want to address and how they want
00:12:38
to address them and that was it and I
00:12:40
walked away so when I saw what happened
00:12:42
with your talk to me it's almost like
00:12:45
the ultimate endgame of this process
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that I've been observing at Ted
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personally for the last 13 years and I
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just wanted to you know or last 15 years
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I guess share that story with you and
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speak publicly about it I I I very much
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respect the intention of the people Ted
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I respect Chris Anderson deeply the TED
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Talks changed my life many times along
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the way over the decade plus that I went
00:13:05
there there I have many great friends
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from Ted I know plenty of people that
00:13:08
have worked there everyone has the right
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intention but I think it's such a
00:13:12
microcosm and a reflection of what's
00:13:13
broadly been going on which is it's
00:13:15
either my opinion or not and everyone
00:13:17
coalesces around people with the same
00:13:18
opinion and then you magnify it and you
00:13:20
concentrate it and we have no discourse
00:13:22
and Ted used to be a place for discourse
00:13:24
and it's lost that as have so many other
00:13:26
forums for conversation in the society
00:13:29
and Country today col what's your what's
00:13:31
your take on the on the Ted organization
00:13:34
you know pre and post having had this
00:13:36
experience I'm curious yeah what you
00:13:38
just said David I've heard echoed from
00:13:41
at least a dozen people that have gone
00:13:44
to Ted or or been uh you know in the Ted
00:13:48
Community for 10 years or more they've
00:13:50
noticed the exact change that you
00:13:52
noticed the question is what has driven
00:13:55
that is it actually coming top down from
00:13:58
the leadership I'm not sure I I'm
00:14:01
skeptical I yeah I see you shaking your
00:14:02
head I I agree Chris Anderson I would
00:14:04
say no I agree so so like all my private
00:14:07
Communications with with Chris suggest
00:14:09
to me that he is just as alive to this
00:14:11
problem of ideological capture of
00:14:14
Institutions as anyone but when it comes
00:14:18
to you know his own staff who have
00:14:21
really strong feelings who are not pro
00:14:23
Free Speech who are not pro um heterodox
00:14:26
beliefs um and Open disc course who who
00:14:29
literally just don't share that
00:14:32
value you know it's a very tricky thing
00:14:35
with leadership sometimes you have to
00:14:36
Simply Be the bad guy and say I'm sorry
00:14:38
these are the values of the institution
00:14:40
and if you're not on board you're this
00:14:42
is not right for you and my perception
00:14:45
is that Ted has been captured kind of
00:14:47
from the bottom up like many
00:14:48
institutions just from the seeping in of
00:14:51
staff that don't share those values and
00:14:53
the in uh inability of the leadership to
00:14:56
actually hold the line for those values
00:14:58
they tell you that you made them feel
00:15:00
unsafe Yes actually actually yes yes
00:15:03
people said they felt they were attacked
00:15:05
in the audience and I'm you know my my
00:15:07
talk was again just look it up on
00:15:09
YouTube it's quite mild can we actually
00:15:12
talk about that let's go into the
00:15:13
substance what was your take on it Jamia
00:15:15
I'll just make a statement which is I
00:15:17
think that your talk was
00:15:20
superb and just to give you my journey
00:15:23
as a kid that grew
00:15:25
up as a refugee on welfare
00:15:30
and then to get through every single
00:15:32
sort of strata of
00:15:33
society I think when I look back the
00:15:36
biggest thing that I struggled with was
00:15:38
always
00:15:40
confusing when I felt
00:15:44
mistreated I would always direct it at
00:15:46
racism it would be my sort of safety
00:15:48
blanket and I would always look
00:15:50
at other people as doing that and it was
00:15:53
only
00:15:55
until I met my wife and spent spending
00:15:58
years and years talking about it where I
00:16:00
was able to disarm this and see that out
00:16:02
of a 100
00:16:03
interactions a lot of the time just
00:16:05
people are having a bad day some other
00:16:07
percentage of the time people are
00:16:09
actually just being very
00:16:10
classist because racism it turns out is
00:16:13
like a pretty severe perversion and it's
00:16:16
really crazy when you actually see it
00:16:19
play
00:16:19
out and for me had I had a framework if
00:16:23
I had your talk when I was in my 20s and
00:16:26
30s I would have speared myself a lot of
00:16:27
self-sabotage
00:16:29
because what that does is when you feel
00:16:31
these things and you don't have a
00:16:31
framework to interpret it or to tolerate
00:16:34
the
00:16:35
anxiety I would internalize that anxiety
00:16:38
and I was a less productive person and
00:16:40
so if the goal was for me on behalf of
00:16:43
my family or on behalf of people like me
00:16:46
to make it I would have gotten there
00:16:49
much faster had I not gotten in my own
00:16:52
way and when I watched your talk it was
00:16:55
incredibly validating for the work that
00:16:57
I had done and I had thought to myself
00:17:00
man if I had had him if he had made that
00:17:03
for me when I was 20 years
00:17:06
old amazing I would have I could have
00:17:08
done so much more because when I think
00:17:10
about some of the mistakes I made they
00:17:11
were rooted in this specific issue that
00:17:13
you touched so I just want to say thank
00:17:15
you and I also want to say that to the
00:17:18
extent other people are interested and
00:17:20
feel like that you should really listen
00:17:22
to what you had to say because I thought
00:17:23
it was eloquently addressed I was a huge
00:17:26
huge huge fan of what you had to say and
00:17:28
I thought it was extremely well done and
00:17:31
especially for someone as young as you I
00:17:33
thought it was just amazing Coleman let
00:17:35
me ask you what was the reaction from
00:17:38
people of color people who've
00:17:39
experienced racism perhaps to your talk
00:17:42
because you must have gotten a
00:17:43
tremendous amount and I did look at the
00:17:44
comments to Ted's credit the comments
00:17:45
are open so what was the reaction you
00:17:48
know to to to people like shath or
00:17:51
yourself people of color who maybe have
00:17:53
experienced racism on some regular basis
00:17:55
and this idea of having color blindness
00:17:58
when when we're um you know operating as
00:18:00
a society and that goal which I'll just
00:18:03
point out when I listen to your talk
00:18:04
seems to be exactly what Martin Luther
00:18:06
King said so go ahead yeah it is so
00:18:11
there's the The Stereotype of the
00:18:13
reaction is that white people like my
00:18:15
talk and people of color don't yes so
00:18:18
that's the stereotype that my critics
00:18:20
would like to believe is the reality
00:18:22
because then they don't have to confront
00:18:24
my arguments the reality is that even at
00:18:27
the Ted conference which is a
00:18:29
progressive space many many people of
00:18:32
color uh black people South Asian people
00:18:35
came up to me saying that was an
00:18:37
excellent talk for this that and the
00:18:39
third
00:18:40
reason and I think uh uh probably for
00:18:44
for reasons uh similar to what you were
00:18:46
saying
00:18:48
chth I I found that often times
00:18:52
immigrants of color really resonate with
00:18:54
my message uh I have many for instance
00:18:57
Jamaican friends that you know they view
00:19:00
themselves as Jamaican they come to
00:19:02
America and our conversation about race
00:19:05
doesn't make very much sense to them
00:19:08
right why it doesn't make sense for
00:19:11
instance to strongly feel that your
00:19:14
racial identity is an aspect of your
00:19:16
core inner
00:19:18
self that you ought to judge people on
00:19:21
the basis of their racial identity that
00:19:24
you know if you're a white person that
00:19:27
you know you don't have a valid
00:19:29
perspective to bear on a conversation or
00:19:30
you have to you know preface every
00:19:32
belief by saying well I'm a I'm a dumb
00:19:34
white guy what do I know this kind of
00:19:37
routine that we've gotten into in spaces
00:19:39
rather than just confronting each other
00:19:40
as hey you know I'm Coleman you're chth
00:19:43
you're David Etc let's all talk about
00:19:46
this from the point of view of epistemic
00:19:49
equals and have conversations and yeah
00:19:52
you you're going to know about stuff I
00:19:54
haven't known because of your individual
00:19:55
life story I'm going to I'm going to
00:19:57
have experienced stuff that you haven't
00:19:59
we may have even experienced racial
00:20:00
discrimination we may we may have stor
00:20:02
stories to tell but we are starting out
00:20:05
fundamentally from the framework of all
00:20:07
being human beings that can talk to each
00:20:09
other and you know we we don't have to
00:20:11
sort of playact the these racial roles
00:20:14
that have become increasingly in Vogue
00:20:17
in woke spaces and a lot of people
00:20:20
resonate with that and and and and
00:20:22
what's more you know you've gotten this
00:20:24
thing on the left you you've gotten
00:20:26
media institutions that have been taken
00:20:28
in in by this so you you see New York
00:20:30
Times op-eds like one I think five years
00:20:33
ago that's can my children be friends
00:20:35
with white people right you've got Robin
00:20:37
D'Angelo in her book saying things like
00:20:40
a white person shouldn't cry around a
00:20:42
black person because it triggers us it's
00:20:44
like this is so the opposite of what it
00:20:46
actually feels like to hang out with an
00:20:49
interracial and tight-knit group of
00:20:51
friends your race racial identity
00:20:54
recedes in importance the more you get
00:20:56
to know people and I think people in
00:20:58
interracial relationships know this
00:21:00
people with interracial kids know this
00:21:02
so my message actually res resonates
00:21:04
with people of of of all colors that I
00:21:07
think was one of the most poignant parts
00:21:08
of it saxs um you got to watch the talk
00:21:11
as well I believe so your thoughts on
00:21:14
maybe institutions rotting from the
00:21:16
inside and uh maybe even one that's
00:21:19
supposed to support ideas ideas that
00:21:22
matter clearly this is an idea that
00:21:23
matters I'm curious I I just want I want
00:21:26
to I want to not use the term rotting
00:21:28
because I think your your point is that
00:21:30
it's not good I don't think that's
00:21:32
necessarily the case because the point
00:21:34
is there's institutional capture that's
00:21:37
happened and that institutional capture
00:21:39
is almost like a democratic process that
00:21:41
we're seeing at companies that we're
00:21:43
seeing at government agencies and that
00:21:46
we're seeing in private and nonprofit
00:21:48
institutions that the individuals that
00:21:51
are employed uh are capturing the
00:21:54
organization's ideals obviously we
00:21:56
that's what I mean by rotting I mean
00:21:58
it's like it's such a stored institution
00:22:01
you know in terms of it was a brave
00:22:03
institution under Ricky saw Warman you
00:22:05
know I get it but I think I think
00:22:06
rotting is such a derogatory term in the
00:22:08
sense that some of these institutions
00:22:10
evolve to be different but and that's
00:22:13
the only thing I I just I don't want to
00:22:14
make it yeah sax of rotting or is it
00:22:17
being taken over uh from the inside out
00:22:19
from the bottom up what are your
00:22:20
thoughts I think captured is a pretty
00:22:22
good word to use Freer use that word
00:22:24
just remember Ted's original Mission
00:22:27
represented in the tagline was ideas
00:22:29
wereth spreading so there's supposed to
00:22:31
be a forum for
00:22:33
interesting worthy ideas that they're
00:22:36
going to spread and here they're doing
00:22:38
the opposite they're basically
00:22:40
sandbagging the views and they didn't
00:22:42
want to publish it at all and then when
00:22:44
they did agree to publish it they
00:22:46
basically subjected that to a new
00:22:48
requirement of putting a rebuttal right
00:22:51
by it so this is not living up to the
00:22:53
original Mission now why did this happen
00:22:56
I want to go to Chris Anderson's
00:22:58
response here he wrote this long post on
00:23:01
X which is too long to read here it's a
00:23:04
really sort of weasly mey mouth defense
00:23:07
of what they
00:23:09
did a lot of both sides type language I
00:23:12
think there's really only one or two
00:23:14
sentences that are relevant in terms of
00:23:17
explaining this whole thing what he says
00:23:20
is that many people have been genuinely
00:23:24
hurt and offended by what they heard you
00:23:26
say so he's a addressing this to Coleman
00:23:29
this is not what we dream of when we
00:23:30
post our talk so I think this is really
00:23:33
the key intellectual mistake that Chris
00:23:35
Anderson's making is that he believes
00:23:37
that people can be genuinely hurt by
00:23:40
encountering well-reasoned ideas they
00:23:42
disagree with I think the way that the
00:23:45
marketplace of ideas is supposed to work
00:23:48
is that when you encounter an idea you
00:23:50
disagree with you formulate an equally
00:23:52
wellth thought out
00:23:54
response and you engage in intellectual
00:23:57
discourse maybe get curious yeah get
00:23:59
curious exactly but you know I think
00:24:02
these words are really significant
00:24:03
because he's saying not just that the
00:24:05
objectors here were offended he was
00:24:07
saying that they were hurt genuinely
00:24:09
hurt so he's buying into this idea that
00:24:12
hearing ideas you disagree with is
00:24:14
somehow a threat to your safety yeah and
00:24:17
as soon as you do that as soon as you
00:24:21
concede that there can be some sort of
00:24:23
physical
00:24:25
harm from engaging with ideas you give
00:24:28
the equivalent of a heckler's veto to
00:24:31
the people who don't like these ideas
00:24:34
it's almost like a crybaby's veto so
00:24:36
there's no way you can function as a
00:24:38
Marketplace of ideas and certainly a
00:24:40
platform for ideas worth spreading if
00:24:42
you're going to give a veto to people
00:24:44
who can claim that their subjective
00:24:47
emotional
00:24:48
reaction to well-thought ideas should
00:24:52
Trump the right of the speaker to put
00:24:56
out that idea or the the broader
00:24:58
audience to hear it right exactly and I
00:25:00
think that's and I think that's where
00:25:01
We've Ended up Coleman can I ask your
00:25:03
point of view on institutional capture
00:25:06
obviously this is different than the
00:25:08
topics you've been you've spoken about
00:25:12
but as you've gone through this
00:25:13
experience with Ted and as you think
00:25:15
more broadly about what's going on do
00:25:17
you have a point of view on the capture
00:25:19
of Institutions from the bottom up
00:25:21
that's happened and how that's affected
00:25:23
some of these topics like free speech
00:25:25
sharing of ideas open discourse
00:25:28
um all these foundations that made kind
00:25:30
of a free and open Society work
00:25:31
effectively for so long yeah well it's
00:25:33
it's a very difficult problem
00:25:36
because you know it's easy for me from
00:25:38
the outside not being the leader of a
00:25:40
major institution to to say well this is
00:25:43
just what you have to do obviously it's
00:25:45
more psychologically difficult to go to
00:25:47
your own staff that you have to
00:25:48
metaphorically live with every day and
00:25:51
really shake things up um and mo many
00:25:54
people aren't willing to do that someone
00:25:56
like Barry Weiss who used to be at the
00:25:57
New York Times you know her point of
00:26:00
view on it is look you just got to start
00:26:02
your own institutions you have to start
00:26:05
your own institutions with the right
00:26:07
ethos from day one and that's what she's
00:26:10
tried to do with the Free Press um
00:26:12
rather than try to reform institutions
00:26:14
that have a lot of unhealthy inertia bet
00:26:17
Chris could have stopped this very
00:26:18
easily I mean this is a failure of
00:26:20
leadership what he needed to tell these
00:26:22
employees is look our mission is to be a
00:26:25
platform for spreading interesting ideas
00:26:27
is and we can't treat this speech
00:26:30
differently than any other speech just
00:26:32
because you disagree with it that's all
00:26:34
he had to do and by the way just because
00:26:36
an idea may be offensive does not mean
00:26:39
that it should not be spread I think
00:26:41
have you read Jonathan hates book
00:26:43
coddling of the American mind absolutely
00:26:45
yeah great book and I think that speaks
00:26:47
and that was the book I gave away in our
00:26:49
gift bag at the all-in summit this year
00:26:51
because I thought it was such like an
00:26:53
important and kind of preent point of
00:26:55
view on what's going on right now that
00:26:58
we assume that if something is offensive
00:27:00
by some some group could be a large
00:27:02
group or a small group it needs to be
00:27:04
suppressed and obviously as you extend
00:27:07
that concept to its extreme you end up
00:27:09
losing many ideas that
00:27:12
challenge you know the current kind of
00:27:15
main concept that everyone believes
00:27:17
here's what I don't understand so
00:27:19
Coleman just maybe if you can just guess
00:27:22
why when somebody
00:27:24
watches this talk could they feel
00:27:28
genuinely hurt like what like if we had
00:27:31
to steal man them let's step in their
00:27:34
shoes like what is the what's the cycle
00:27:37
that's going on there that gets them to
00:27:40
oh my God this is an intolerable point
00:27:42
of
00:27:44
view yeah I mean I think there has to be
00:27:46
something with if you're a person that
00:27:49
has you know St your life or your career
00:27:53
out on the concept of sort of race-based
00:27:56
divers iversity equity and inclusion
00:27:59
explicitly taking race into account in
00:28:02
policies and you know you're someone
00:28:04
that's been working in that domain for
00:28:06
30 years and you see someone like me
00:28:09
come up there and just argue against
00:28:13
that whole approach there may be some
00:28:15
severe threat mechanism that comes on
00:28:18
board where you actually don't have a
00:28:20
rational argument that that easily
00:28:24
debunks what I'm saying because what I'm
00:28:26
saying is very reasonable
00:28:28
and so in the absence of a great
00:28:30
rational
00:28:31
argument when the stakes are high all
00:28:34
the you know Primal animal emotions sort
00:28:37
of come out your your whole lyic system
00:28:40
and you feel like you're kind of in a
00:28:41
fight ORF flight situation and and you
00:28:43
and you feel incredibly emotional that's
00:28:46
my only guess yeah they're hurt and it's
00:28:49
scary to think what if you win the
00:28:50
argument and if you win the argument it
00:28:53
means certain things might go away and
00:28:56
and I think the two examples they gave
00:28:57
you Chris Anderson came on stage and
00:28:59
said oh you know when conductors are
00:29:01
looking for a new violinist they put
00:29:03
them behind a you know a shade and they
00:29:06
and they do colorblind selection process
00:29:09
a color blind selection process I think
00:29:10
Malcolm Gladwell talked about that in
00:29:12
blink and your response to and then they
00:29:15
said well wouldn't be better if we could
00:29:17
have you know some representation in
00:29:19
that group so then we would inspire
00:29:21
people to get to the group your response
00:29:23
to that was yeah my response to that was
00:29:26
what you really want to do is if there
00:29:29
are reasons why say black kids aren't
00:29:31
getting access to violins at the at a
00:29:33
young age because schools are
00:29:35
underfunded or ban programs are are
00:29:37
horrible in inner cities that's where
00:29:40
you want to intervene you don't want to
00:29:41
intervene a at the point at the at the
00:29:44
meritocratic endline racially rigging
00:29:47
the very bar that you would use to
00:29:49
measure progress on those deeper
00:29:51
Dimensions have you read this book
00:29:54
called losing ground by Charles Marine
00:29:57
yes I have I mean a very provocative
00:30:00
book I have always thought and maybe
00:30:02
I'll just leave this with you because if
00:30:03
you were willing to do it I for one
00:30:06
would love to support you in any way
00:30:07
that I could to do it but we don't have
00:30:10
a full
00:30:11
accounting of what really happened
00:30:14
starting in the late 1960s with lbj's
00:30:16
war on poverty and I think when you look
00:30:19
at racism through the American lived
00:30:22
experience a lot of it goes back to a
00:30:24
bunch of economic incentives that were
00:30:26
set up to try to what theoretically
00:30:28
seemed at the time the right thing we
00:30:30
can debate whether that's where LBJ came
00:30:32
from or not but you compound and Cascade
00:30:34
a bunch of decisions forward and to your
00:30:36
point now we're sort of trying to deal
00:30:38
with the symptoms Without Really
00:30:39
addressing the root cause and I think if
00:30:42
America wants to really heal and deal
00:30:43
with this what we also need to do is
00:30:45
give all those people that have that
00:30:46
fight ORF flight response a better
00:30:48
toolkit to understand what kind of
00:30:50
godess here because right now we have a
00:30:52
very charged way of viewing these things
00:30:54
without actually looking at some of the
00:30:56
practical quantifiable details Thomas so
00:30:59
has talked about it Charles Murray talks
00:31:01
about
00:31:02
it but these are unfortunately such
00:31:04
heterodox ideas that they just don't get
00:31:06
enough mainstream discussion and if you
00:31:09
then compound that with this
00:31:10
institutional capture they get buried
00:31:13
and so the answer may actually be
00:31:14
sitting right in front of our face where
00:31:17
it was the Ware reform system that we
00:31:19
implemented in the late 1960s on Down
00:31:22
the Line because those are structural
00:31:24
ways where we can solve it which
00:31:25
ultimately will get to your point which
00:31:27
is great fund more music in the schools
00:31:29
in that example and right now we're so
00:31:32
caught up in all of the the labels and
00:31:34
the fear mongering that we never get to
00:31:36
that and so I just wanted to put that
00:31:37
out there that I think that there needs
00:31:39
to be smart brilliant people like
00:31:41
yourself young people who can do a full
00:31:44
accounting of like the last 50 or 60
00:31:46
years in a much more structural way that
00:31:48
these gentlemen tried to do but the
00:31:49
ideas were just too heterodox at the
00:31:51
time but because of formats like podcast
00:31:54
and like the Free Press and other things
00:31:55
I think there's a chance that you can
00:31:56
actually to get these ideas out and I
00:31:59
think it's important because I think
00:32:01
folks like me or the people that
00:32:02
approached you there's not enough of us
00:32:05
that came from this background that are
00:32:06
open-minded or at a point where we can
00:32:09
tolerate the anxiety to listen to your
00:32:11
ideas there's a lot of people that may
00:32:13
just viscerally react but the more that
00:32:15
we can shift those people away from
00:32:16
viscerally reacting to actually
00:32:19
tolerating and then thinking and then
00:32:21
evolving their point of view you can do
00:32:23
some enormous good in the world just why
00:32:25
I just wanted to put that out there yeah
00:32:28
yeah no I mean that's a huge topic and
00:32:30
an understudied topic what was the
00:32:32
effect of of the welfare reforms of the'
00:32:34
60s and70s I know my mother used to say
00:32:36
she grew up in the South Bronx I'm half
00:32:38
Hispanic half black American and she
00:32:41
used to say uh she used to just have
00:32:43
stories of you know when the welfare
00:32:45
Auditors would come around and people
00:32:47
would hide their boyfriends hide their
00:32:48
husbands hide their husbands exactly and
00:32:51
the um and in the book Black Power by
00:32:53
stokeley carmichel um AKA quame té which
00:32:56
is is uh you know the manifesto of the
00:32:59
Black Power movement hardly a a
00:33:00
right-wing Source they they made the
00:33:03
same point about welfare reform so they
00:33:05
definitely is something to be
00:33:06
investigated there um it's not really my
00:33:09
point of expertise I know Glenn Lowry is
00:33:12
someone who has really you know dug into
00:33:14
that sort of research but there's
00:33:15
definitely a a a lot of room for study
00:33:19
there Colman let me ask you a question
00:33:20
about our industry we've had um a lot of
00:33:23
hand ringing and debates about diversity
00:33:27
in funding of startups uh Capital
00:33:29
allocators Venture Capital firms and um
00:33:34
we have limited partners who have a
00:33:36
mission to have more diverse uh General
00:33:39
Partners the people at Venture firms who
00:33:41
invest in startups invest in more female
00:33:43
lead startups Etc because the numbers
00:33:45
frankly you know have not been um very
00:33:49
diverse uh historically inventure far
00:33:52
from it and we recently had a female a
00:33:56
black female Venture firm I think it's
00:33:58
called Fearless Founders get sued I'm
00:34:00
not sure if you're aware of that lawsuit
00:34:01
it's by the same person who sued
00:34:04
Harvard should there be Venture firms
00:34:07
specifically designed to change the
00:34:10
ratio is the language people use and
00:34:12
should you know people with large
00:34:15
endowments of capital be backing you
00:34:17
know black Venture capitalists to see
00:34:19
more of them or female black venture
00:34:21
capitalist Hispanic Etc or how would you
00:34:24
look at that issue which has been a
00:34:26
pretty sticky issue and hasn't changed
00:34:28
for a long
00:34:29
time so prescriptively I don't want to
00:34:32
say much because I don't like to tell
00:34:33
people how to run their funds or run
00:34:34
their businesses right if you're a
00:34:36
Christian and you want to hire only
00:34:37
Christian people if you're a Muslim you
00:34:39
want to hire only Muslims I think you
00:34:41
should frankly be allowed to do that if
00:34:42
those are your personal values now
00:34:44
personally I will tell you with respect
00:34:47
to the people that I would hire to say
00:34:48
work on my podcast I want every single
00:34:51
hire to know that I am not hiring them
00:34:54
as a result of their skin color or or
00:34:57
gender or any other contingent feature
00:35:02
of of their identity I want them to know
00:35:04
that I'm hiring them for what they
00:35:06
really bring to the table now I have a
00:35:08
very small team maybe there's something
00:35:10
about how the Optics certain Optics are
00:35:13
required for a larger um a larger firm
00:35:16
but I think it it the problems begin
00:35:20
when you when you sort of bless this
00:35:23
idea that race is a super deep feature
00:35:26
of who you are right from the start when
00:35:28
you bless that idea right from the start
00:35:30
it sends the signal that what people
00:35:33
bring to the table is their racial
00:35:35
identity is their gender now when you
00:35:37
fast forward two years down the line
00:35:39
when a company is having some meltdown
00:35:41
over a race or a gender issue you have
00:35:43
to understand that it's possible you
00:35:45
made this bed by signaling from the very
00:35:48
beginning that what's important about
00:35:50
the people you're bringing in is their
00:35:51
race is their gender and that you are uh
00:35:54
vulnerable to the kinds of appeals that
00:35:57
can be made purely on the basis of what
00:35:59
are ultimately superficial features of
00:36:02
our identity yeah it's well said what
00:36:05
would your advice be to institutional
00:36:07
leaders that are past that point of no
00:36:09
return the CEOs of big companies and big
00:36:12
institutions that are now captive by
00:36:15
these ideologies where they are
00:36:18
effectively as you say Ultra sensitive
00:36:20
to issues around race and gender and
00:36:23
other sort of you know superficial
00:36:25
identities
00:36:27
and are challenged often to to make
00:36:30
decisions or driven to make decisions
00:36:31
that their employees and teams demand of
00:36:35
them do you have advice on how they can
00:36:37
rethink their roles as leaders and how
00:36:39
to reframe this I mean in a word no
00:36:42
because it's by that point it's uh it's
00:36:45
it's an intract intractable problem I've
00:36:48
had I've talked to CEOs that asked this
00:36:50
question to me over and over again you
00:36:52
know like what do I do once I'm past the
00:36:54
point where i' I have so many staff and
00:36:56
it's it's you know the system is so
00:36:58
sprawling that it's no longer under my
00:37:00
control I have so many people with
00:37:02
values that I don't share that I frankly
00:37:04
think privately are insane but I cannot
00:37:07
say so publicly because I have higher
00:37:09
order commitments to the shareholders to
00:37:12
the board to to steer this ship right
00:37:15
such as it is and the ship cannot be
00:37:17
changed at this point I don't have good
00:37:19
advice I'm not going to pretend that I
00:37:20
do do you think that same problem is
00:37:22
inherent in political parties in the
00:37:24
United States states St governments and
00:37:28
other larger kind of social systems that
00:37:31
we used to organize ourselves and are
00:37:33
now also captive and in kind of a point
00:37:35
of no
00:37:36
return I think definitely in the
00:37:38
Democratic party there has been a
00:37:41
problem with mistaking the Twitter
00:37:44
commentariat and the journalistic elite
00:37:46
for real life the truth is the vast
00:37:50
majority of even Democrat voters find my
00:37:53
arguments around colorblindness totally
00:37:55
uncontroversial
00:37:57
whether they may have some agreements or
00:37:59
not but if you ask the elite there's a
00:38:03
meltdown right there's this huge there's
00:38:05
just this huge discrepancy and it can
00:38:08
never be hammered enough the extent to
00:38:09
which people in politics are operating
00:38:13
in a bubble and believe mistaking the
00:38:15
elite and the Twitter Sphere for The
00:38:18
Wider
00:38:19
population I mean this feels to me like
00:38:21
why Donald Trump got elected but that's
00:38:24
another topic this has been amazing uh
00:38:26
everybody take a moment search for
00:38:27
Coleman Hughes subscribe to his YouTube
00:38:29
channel type Coleman Hughes Ted Coleman
00:38:32
you do you do a podcast yeah I do a
00:38:34
podcast conversations with Coleman
00:38:36
actually David saaks has been on podcast
00:38:38
about a year ago how did he do how did
00:38:39
he do he did absolutely fantastic did he
00:38:42
make you feel unsafe he did actually
00:38:45
yes was it talk about the Ukraine talk
00:38:48
about UK talk wait can I can I be on
00:38:51
your podcast I of course I would I would
00:38:54
be honored oh great fantastic there you
00:38:56
go I would be honored thank you I I I
00:38:59
saw you had um the Dilbert guy on and I
00:39:02
thought that was pretty engaging
00:39:04
conversation yeah Scott Adam who is you
00:39:07
know really controversial and I thought
00:39:09
you handled that one really well too
00:39:10
yeah thanks he's an interesting one it's
00:39:12
like he has a lot of brilliant things to
00:39:14
say but also he maybe thinks the CIA is
00:39:16
going to kill him recently on Twitter
00:39:17
it's it's a mixed bag it's I would
00:39:20
mixbag would be where I would go with it
00:39:22
all right listen this has been amazing
00:39:23
the Ted Talk is extraordinary everybody
00:39:26
should watch it and yeah ideas worth
00:39:29
spreading unless maybe uh you don't
00:39:33
agree with them go to the Ted Channel
00:39:35
and watch it stop sorry I mean I don't
00:39:38
want to give Ted too much of a hard time
00:39:40
but they tried to get me to pay $50,000
00:39:43
a year $25,000 a year for like a
00:39:45
fiveyear package to go to the event and
00:39:46
I was like how how much is Ted how much
00:39:49
is Ted reg tickets used to be 7500 and
00:39:53
then no they used to be 7500 then I
00:39:54
think they went up to 10K and and then
00:39:56
you can do like donor tickets and you
00:39:58
get different features and so on
00:39:59
basically they're sold out remember it
00:40:01
it is set up as a nonprofit and there is
00:40:04
philanthropic work that's done and so
00:40:06
you know the organization is again it's
00:40:09
not a profiteering media company it it
00:40:12
it became a big Media Company because of
00:40:14
the success of the the efforts and the
00:40:16
the quality of the content that was
00:40:18
produced over time but you know as we
00:40:20
talked about a lot of media companies
00:40:22
and a lot of Institutions get captured
00:40:25
and you know the original kind of
00:40:27
Mission to paraphrase to paraphrase uh
00:40:29
Bruce Willis and Pulp Fiction Ted's dead
00:40:32
baby Ted's dead Ted's dead a great SC
00:40:35
you gets on the back of the motorcycle
00:40:37
de's dead baby as soon as they allow the
00:40:40
staff who have let's say highly Niche
00:40:43
Elite views to veto or suppress talks
00:40:47
they don't like then it stops being a
00:40:49
platform for ideas this becomes another
00:40:51
leftwing interest group what other ideas
00:40:53
what other talks have been canned before
00:40:55
they even got to to the stage you have
00:40:57
to wonder and we don't know who are they
00:40:59
not
00:41:01
inviting and it's all the it's the top
00:41:03
of the funnel Jason exactly that's all
00:41:04
that's all the people that they're not
00:41:05
invited what about the person that's Pro
00:41:08
Cole I wonder if the pro Cole person is
00:41:10
allowed to present it to I doubt it uh
00:41:13
you know and the they they had Sarah
00:41:15
Silverman and she did a comedy set which
00:41:17
was hilarious and the same people so
00:41:19
this is the thing I find so the
00:41:20
hypocrisy is just so crazy uh with the
00:41:23
Ted people and it's a lot of my friends
00:41:24
still go is they had Sarah Silverman
00:41:27
come these people have laughed at Sarah
00:41:29
Silverman a million times they've
00:41:32
watched Dave Chappelle they've seen any
00:41:34
number of comments you know make them
00:41:36
laugh with edgy humor but then when
00:41:39
they're in that you know Ted audience
00:41:41
and they're feeling super precious and
00:41:43
that they're very important because they
00:41:44
donate 50 Grand a year or whatever
00:41:46
fredberg gave them I don't know to get
00:41:48
in there from the side
00:41:50
door then they were super offended so it
00:41:53
you know they're Hypocrites and I don't
00:41:55
know how to say it anymore clearly they
00:41:56
they literally you could pull up Chris
00:42:00
Anderson apologizing not just again
00:42:03
again I really apologizing for a
00:42:04
comedian I mean I I I hope that this is
00:42:07
a learning experience for everyone I
00:42:09
hope that this is a turning point for
00:42:11
leadership and in institutions like this
00:42:12
to take a look at what happened how it
00:42:14
happened and then hopefully to write the
00:42:16
course because organizations like Ted I
00:42:17
thought were very important and should
00:42:19
be in the world and should be successful
00:42:21
and I hope that they kind of return to
00:42:22
the original values and I hope that this
00:42:24
is a moment that that there's a learning
00:42:25
experence that we don't Just sh on
00:42:27
them and say they're awful they're
00:42:29
failed it's over hopefully something
00:42:31
comes of this I do think there is one
00:42:32
other potential remedy here which
00:42:35
besides just starting a new Ted um and
00:42:38
the kind of the Barry Wise point of view
00:42:40
which is just write it off and start
00:42:41
over remember what Brian Armstrong did
00:42:43
at coinbase he basically said listen we
00:42:45
have a mission here it's around crypto
00:42:47
we're going to focus 100% on this
00:42:49
Mission and if you're not on board with
00:42:51
this Mission or want to capture this
00:42:53
institution to promote other missions
00:42:55
this is not the place for you go do
00:42:57
those missions somewhere
00:42:58
else he took a hit the New York Times
00:43:01
wrote their obligatory hit piece Chris
00:43:03
was tell everybody no instead of saying
00:43:06
that I would say if Chris has good
00:43:09
mentors as well as a good sounding board
00:43:12
that is the threshold question that
00:43:14
should be debated right now is do I walk
00:43:16
in the door and do I just give this
00:43:19
simple litmus test and have people sign
00:43:21
up or not and yeah Rec and it's quite
00:43:24
and it's quite easy because to your
00:43:26
point it's not like he's inventing
00:43:27
something new he's saying this is where
00:43:29
we started and this is where we're going
00:43:30
to stay and this is what it means and if
00:43:34
he doesn't do that then he's spoken with
00:43:36
his actions and it is what it is it'll
00:43:38
what what is meant to happen will then
00:43:39
happen exactly exactly it's it's a it's
00:43:42
a moment for looking at the internal
00:43:43
Compass it's a wholesale leadership
00:43:45
reset moment opportunity see if it
00:43:47
happens or not down and keep going I
00:43:50
really appreciate you're being public
00:43:52
about all this and talking about it it's
00:43:54
been it's been a great conversation
00:43:56
everybody
00:43:57
for we'll see you soon cheers now see
00:44:00
you man thanks all right listen it's a
00:44:02
new segment we have here when virture
00:44:03
signaling goes wrong if you missed it
00:44:05
the Canadian Parliament gave a standing
00:44:08
ovation to a Nazi not like a new Nazi or
00:44:12
a Nazi sympathizer uh one of the few
00:44:15
actual Nazis still alive uh here we see
00:44:18
uh just the crowd going wild uh last
00:44:21
Friday uh ukrainians president zinsky
00:44:24
gave a speech at the Canadian House of
00:44:25
Commons
00:44:27
and um Canadian house Speaker Anthony
00:44:29
Rota introduced a 98-year-old
00:44:31
[Music]
00:44:33
yaroslav hunka as a Ukrainian war hero
00:44:37
and then the Canadian Parliament
00:44:39
proceeded to give him a standing
00:44:42
ovation
00:44:44
and it uh turns out that this person
00:44:49
first
00:44:50
fought for the first Ukrainian division
00:44:53
in World War II that unit was also known
00:44:56
as the Waffen
00:44:58
SS Galicia Division if I'm pronouncing
00:45:01
that cor correctly uh which was a
00:45:03
voluntary unit under under Nazi command
00:45:05
so the Canadian parment apparently gave
00:45:08
a standing ovation to
00:45:10
Nazis they have apologize for this and
00:45:12
said it was a mistake chth I don't know
00:45:14
if you got to see this you're Canadian
00:45:17
uh so your thoughts on what we've seen
00:45:19
here I mean I'll give you my feedback as
00:45:22
somebody who when I was you know in
00:45:27
Canada was a pretty Ardent liberal I
00:45:31
grew up in a liberal household my father
00:45:34
canvas religiously for the
00:45:37
Liberals and I think that at some point
00:45:40
after I moved to the United
00:45:42
States they took wokeism which I think
00:45:45
look at some level was rooted in
00:45:47
something very important which was how
00:45:50
do you get marginalized folks to be
00:45:53
seen but unfortunately along the way
00:45:56
just got perverted by folks that just
00:45:58
use it as a cudel to censor people to
00:46:01
make other people feel guilty to judge
00:46:04
people and so I think we all would agree
00:46:07
that it's kind of become this virus the
00:46:10
thing that it masks are all of these
00:46:12
other really bad things that come along
00:46:14
with it and one of them in Canada which
00:46:17
Justin Trudeau is case Zero of is also
00:46:20
when nepotism goes bad his father was an
00:46:24
incredible Exemplar prime minister in
00:46:26
Canada set the Benchmark on all
00:46:29
Dimensions was just incredible cool
00:46:33
composed moved the country forward
00:46:35
brought the country together and then
00:46:37
fast forward 25 or 30 years in a vacuum
00:46:40
of leadership what basically happened we
00:46:42
picked this guy who was up until that
00:46:44
point a substitute teacher and the other
00:46:47
claim to fame was appearing twice in
00:46:49
brownface okay so making fun of people
00:46:52
like me and elected him prime minister
00:46:56
and what happened was he became the sort
00:46:58
of like virtue signaler and chief of
00:47:01
this very important GA
00:47:04
country and it was all kind of bumbling
00:47:07
along and in the absence of anybody else
00:47:10
that was able to step up and offer an
00:47:11
alternative he got reelected barely but
00:47:14
he
00:47:14
did then these things happened in the
00:47:17
last year and when you look through that
00:47:19
prism is how you can see what happens if
00:47:22
a country doesn't draw a line and
00:47:24
finally take a stand so we had this guy
00:47:28
who was Ill qualified and way over his
00:47:30
head who shouldn't have been in this
00:47:31
role as prime minister get put in that
00:47:33
position when finally a group of people
00:47:36
in Canada push back in this case the
00:47:38
truckers he and the entire government
00:47:41
explicitly labeled them as Nazis right
00:47:44
and said these people need to be put
00:47:46
down and completely
00:47:49
dismantled it didn't seem like it was
00:47:51
right we called that out we all talked
00:47:53
about it and we said this doesn't smell
00:47:55
right on the surface these are really
00:47:57
seems like good Earnest people that are
00:47:58
just trying to make a point and are not
00:48:00
being heard then you had this thing
00:48:03
three weeks ago two two or three weeks
00:48:05
ago where he actually had a speech in
00:48:09
front of the entire Parliament where he
00:48:11
accused the largest democracy in the
00:48:13
world India in this case of coming into
00:48:16
Canada Canadian soil and assassinating a
00:48:18
Canadian citizen which is an enormous
00:48:21
allegation to Levy and what was
00:48:24
important to know about that allegation
00:48:26
was that it was done without the
00:48:28
explicit vocal support of either Britain
00:48:30
or the United United States which would
00:48:32
be the two most natural allies that
00:48:34
Canada would present that information to
00:48:36
and instead of doing it behind a closed
00:48:39
door to Modi he did it on live stage
00:48:42
like it was like some theatrical
00:48:45
performance then India follows up and
00:48:47
says um this guy's kind of known to be a
00:48:49
little bit of a drug addict and was on a
00:48:51
two-day bender and the Indian drug dog
00:48:54
smelled a bunch of cocaine on the
00:48:56
plane then they have this thing for
00:48:59
Vladimir zalinski where everybody was
00:49:02
there to sort of like virtue signal this
00:49:04
war and then they actually invited a
00:49:06
Nazi and then gave him a standing
00:49:08
ovation so when you when you put it all
00:49:10
together I think what it shows is just
00:49:12
the lack
00:49:13
of
00:49:15
professionalism which also belies just
00:49:17
the lack of experience and capability
00:49:19
and so I think what it shows is just
00:49:22
like isn't this enough like have we not
00:49:25
seen enough of these examples where you
00:49:27
can actually start to ask yourself why
00:49:29
can't we just get really good competent
00:49:31
people to do these jobs why can't we
00:49:33
actually embrace free speech and all of
00:49:35
what it means and explore that why can't
00:49:36
we have people that don't need to
00:49:38
theatrically perform on stage because
00:49:40
eventually you're going to make these
00:49:41
mistakes and you're going to embarrass
00:49:43
your entire country and then you're
00:49:45
going to imperil relations with some
00:49:47
really important allies and I think this
00:49:49
is a moment in time where all of those
00:49:50
things need to be questioned and put on
00:49:52
the table you're clearly questioning his
00:49:55
com competence here because to not have
00:49:59
the care to check who is going to speak
00:50:01
in front of parliament is crazy and just
00:50:04
to make it super clear the speaker that
00:50:07
invited hunka that was Anthony Rota
00:50:10
resigned on Tuesday and tro says Rota
00:50:13
the person who invited the Nazi uh is
00:50:16
solely responsible well then he blamed
00:50:18
Russian misinformation on top of that
00:50:20
but Jason you don't you don't the Prime
00:50:21
Minister who is the most important
00:50:23
politician in the country doesn't show
00:50:25
up place unless the office knows who
00:50:27
else is going to be there he knew that
00:50:28
zeni was going to be there he would have
00:50:30
known who the guest list
00:50:32
was this was just scaping to cover it up
00:50:35
but but the bigger issue to be clear
00:50:37
you're not saying that they invited a
00:50:39
Nazi on purpose and cheered for a Nazi
00:50:42
on purpose where nobody's saying that
00:50:43
you're saying there's a lack of care
00:50:45
here and it's it's a lack of confidence
00:50:48
it's a lack confidence yeah yeah just so
00:50:50
we're clear yeah okay so I agree with
00:50:52
all of that I think there's also two
00:50:54
other dimensions to this backstory if
00:50:56
you will I think first in terms of how
00:50:59
does a mistake like this happen I think
00:51:02
it was Orwell who said that he who
00:51:04
controls the present controls the past
00:51:06
and he who controls the past controls
00:51:08
the future the present is Ukraine it is
00:51:12
the current thing everybody has to cheer
00:51:14
for Ukraine and for the killing of
00:51:16
Russians the reason why hunka was
00:51:18
cheered with a standing ovation is
00:51:20
because they said that he fought
00:51:22
Russians he was a war hero who fought
00:51:24
Russians all you had to do was do a
00:51:26
little bit of math to realize the guy's
00:51:27
98 years old when was there a war
00:51:29
against Russia who could he possibly
00:51:31
have been fighting for but to the extent
00:51:33
people did that they sort of airbrushed
00:51:36
it or whitewash history so the present
00:51:39
controls the past to ensure a a vision
00:51:42
of the future which Trudeau laid out in
00:51:44
this speech he gave recently where he
00:51:47
became so Ardent in his support for
00:51:50
Ukraine he was almost yelling at the
00:51:53
podium saying that Canada had to make
00:51:55
make all these economic sacrifices to
00:51:56
win the war so that's Point number one
00:51:59
is I think that the woke M virus almost
00:52:02
requires this whitewashing of the past
00:52:04
but it's done for a specific purpose
00:52:07
which is to control the future well
00:52:08
they're not whitewashing the past if it
00:52:10
was a mistake that intellectually
00:52:11
doesn't make sense no what they did is
00:52:14
what they're saying is if I'm
00:52:15
understanding you correctly yeah the
00:52:17
present is that we hate Russia so much
00:52:21
that we're going to cheer for anybody
00:52:23
who killed Russians okay I understand
00:52:25
your point but you're you're agreeing
00:52:26
that they did not knowingly put a Nazi
00:52:27
on there so it was a mistake got it I
00:52:29
don't think they they knowingly did it
00:52:30
it was a huge debacle and embarrassing
00:52:33
spectacle I think that nobody asks any
00:52:36
questions about the past because the
00:52:38
present overrides it sure the present
00:52:40
need to support the current thing
00:52:43
overrides like any sort of examination
00:52:45
what has happened historically there's
00:52:48
one other way in which I think this
00:52:50
wasn't an accident Jason is that if you
00:52:53
look at us policy towards Ukraine we
00:52:55
have made common cause with a number of
00:52:58
these far-right Ultra nationalist groups
00:53:01
frankly Neo-Nazi groups and this
00:53:03
occurred before the the current War so
00:53:06
it's not just a marriage of convenience
00:53:08
first of all if you go back to War I the
00:53:10
the father of Ukrainian nationalism is a
00:53:13
guy named stepen Bandera and today in
00:53:15
Ukraine he is seen as some sort of hero
00:53:18
and there are streets named after him
00:53:20
and their streets named after some of
00:53:21
his co-conspirators who collaborated
00:53:23
with Nazis if you fast forward to the
00:53:27
more recent past to
00:53:29
2014 when we had this uh maidon coup in
00:53:33
Kiev that was backed by Victoria Newland
00:53:36
one of the key figures in that coup was
00:53:40
a guy named Ola tonbach who is the
00:53:42
founder of the soda party which is the
00:53:46
social nationalist party which if you
00:53:49
know what Nazi stands for it's National
00:53:51
Socialist they basically just flip the
00:53:53
name and the original logo of this Vota
00:53:56
party was the wolf's Angel which was a
00:53:59
Nazi Insignia this was a far right party
00:54:03
infused with the racial ideology of
00:54:06
Stephan Bandera who was again a Nazi and
00:54:10
they brought this guy in and and his
00:54:12
party as the muscle in this coup if you
00:54:15
look at the Victoria nulan phone call
00:54:17
the infamous phone call where she is
00:54:18
picking the new Ukrainian government the
00:54:21
the yats is our guy phone call she says
00:54:23
that klitsch meaning klitch
00:54:25
and and tonbach need to remain on the
00:54:28
outside but yats needs to be talking to
00:54:30
tonbach four times a week okay he was
00:54:33
part of the chess pieces that they were
00:54:35
moving around after the coup a civil war
00:54:38
breaks out in the dabass because the
00:54:41
ethnic Russians there are opposed to
00:54:43
this new government and the fact that
00:54:45
yanukovich who they voted for was
00:54:47
deposed in an Insurrection what happens
00:54:50
then is a war breaks out where farri
00:54:53
paramilitary organizations like right
00:54:55
sector and like the infamous aoff
00:54:57
Battalion start killing these ethnic
00:55:00
Russian separatists and a full-blown
00:55:02
Civil War breaks out thousands of people
00:55:04
get killed does the Kiev government
00:55:07
suppress these Neo-Nazi groups no they
00:55:11
bring him under the formal command
00:55:12
structure of the Ukrainian military AO
00:55:15
Battalion becomes a
00:55:18
division of the Ukrainian military it's
00:55:21
shocking and this goes on from 2014
00:55:24
through
00:55:26
the Ukraine Army just to be clear here
00:55:28
has Nazis in it Nazi supporters there's
00:55:30
no question about that and there are
00:55:32
many people who were concerned about
00:55:34
this in the 2015 to 2020 time frame
00:55:37
there were many articles written about
00:55:38
it the nation had an article about it
00:55:40
there were efforts in Congress at
00:55:42
various points to try to ensure that the
00:55:44
aid that we were giving to the Ukrainian
00:55:45
government did not go to the a off
00:55:48
Italian so so it is said so it is said
00:55:52
okay I think the important and and and
00:55:54
obviously is a Nazi or a Nazi symp no no
00:55:57
I I don't think he's a Nazi and to be
00:55:58
clear I don't think most ukrainians are
00:56:00
Nazis and I don't even think that most
00:56:01
Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis what
00:56:04
I'm saying is that there is a Nazi
00:56:06
element in Ukraine that people have
00:56:08
whitewashed over well here's the thing
00:56:10
about it I don't think it's a huge
00:56:12
percentage but I think they have outsid
00:56:14
influence due to their willingness to
00:56:16
use violence du due to their extremism
00:56:19
and they're willingness to use it's any
00:56:20
different than the Nazi percentage in
00:56:23
say what whatever you want to say white
00:56:25
supremacist in the United States or in
00:56:27
Germany or anywhere else I do and I
00:56:30
think it's different in this sense that
00:56:31
in the United States for sure we have
00:56:34
Neo-Nazi groups they're not brought into
00:56:36
the military we don't have streets named
00:56:38
after their
00:56:40
Patriarchs furthermore we don't have
00:56:42
members of our military with Nazi
00:56:44
Insignia on them there was a New York
00:56:46
Times article just a few months ago
00:56:48
talking about the fact that
00:56:51
embarrassingly a lot of these Ukrainian
00:56:53
soldiers are being photographed with
00:56:55
Nazi Insignia on their uniforms now the
00:56:58
New York Times is framing this as a
00:56:59
problem because it was a propaganda coup
00:57:01
for Putin and presumbly it was I think
00:57:06
but I think it's a problem because it's
00:57:07
a problem not because of just the pr
00:57:09
Optics of it and you know at various
00:57:11
points I think this is in the New York
00:57:12
Times article as well Western media has
00:57:14
had to airbrush these photos to hide
00:57:17
this fact now oh the New York Times has
00:57:20
airbrushed photos of Nazi I don't think
00:57:22
New York Times has but I don't think New
00:57:23
York Times has but I think they talk
00:57:25
about this thorny problem of not wanting
00:57:28
to show these photos with respect to the
00:57:29
the zalinsky being Jewish so what I'd
00:57:32
say about that is that zilinsky only
00:57:35
came on the scene quite recently he got
00:57:37
elected in
00:57:39
2019 and again I don't think the
00:57:41
majority of people in Ukraine are Nazis
00:57:44
okay so I'm not saying that but just
00:57:46
because zalinsky came on the scene in
00:57:47
2019 and was elected president doesn't
00:57:49
mean there's a long and I would say
00:57:51
disturbing history and Association
00:57:55
between Ukrainian ultr nationalism and
00:57:57
Neo-Nazi groups and I think that part of
00:58:00
the the woke thing and part of this
00:58:02
orwellian desire where control of the
00:58:04
present gives you the ability to rewrite
00:58:06
the past is that there's been a
00:58:07
deliberate effort to cover up this
00:58:09
problem and to pretend it doesn't exist
00:58:12
to turn a blind eye to it well my point
00:58:15
is that US policy has been to do this
00:58:18
and other words the US saying our
00:58:20
government yeah okay the US state
00:58:22
department and presumably CIA
00:58:25
made common cause with these far-right
00:58:27
groups because we thought it was
00:58:28
beneficial to be aligned with them and
00:58:31
so we did it in the maanu in 2014 from
00:58:34
2015 to 2021 we could have gone along
00:58:37
with efforts under the minska cords to
00:58:39
resolve this conflict in the dbass
00:58:41
peacefully but we never did that we
00:58:43
never gave it any support and instead we
00:58:46
gave support to the Kiev regime's
00:58:48
attempt to violently suppress these
00:58:49
Russian separatists and again the
00:58:51
suppression was being done by these
00:58:53
right-wing groups look does that make
00:58:55
our state department Nazis no does that
00:58:58
make the Canadian Parliament Nazis no
00:59:00
what I'm saying is that in both cases a
00:59:02
blind eye was turned to the disturbing
00:59:06
ideology and past and associations of
00:59:09
these people because it's politically in
00:59:11
our interest to do business with them
00:59:13
and that's the problematic thing about
00:59:14
it so I don't think in that sense this
00:59:16
was just a sort of an accident this is
00:59:18
the backstory that explains like
00:59:20
something like this can happen yeah okay
00:59:23
Jason you have any re actions to Trudeau
00:59:26
doing this and what it means or does it
00:59:27
mean nothing does the backstory I
00:59:29
provided give you context on how
00:59:32
something like this can happen that's
00:59:34
not just like an accident well I don't
00:59:36
think any of us can know exactly what
00:59:38
happened here and there's probably going
00:59:39
to be some sort of Investigation but I
00:59:41
don't think they knowingly put a Nazi up
00:59:42
there um I think they are pro the war
00:59:45
and that probably could that have
00:59:47
blinded them to do deeper research sure
00:59:50
people are political politicians most of
00:59:52
all and um people probably take facts or
00:59:57
you know any kind of anything they can
00:59:59
use to to um make their case stronger
01:00:03
they'll take advantage of that so yeah
01:00:05
sure and is truee do zinski zalinsky was
01:00:08
pumping his fist and cheering don't you
01:00:10
think he knew he can't not know the
01:00:12
history he has to know he has to know if
01:00:15
he does then that somebody who was
01:00:17
fighting the Russians in World War II
01:00:19
good question on the German side if he
01:00:22
did then you would be saying if he did
01:00:25
know and he was pumping his fist then
01:00:26
you'd be saying that he was pro-nazi he
01:00:29
was cheering for Nazi knowingly no what
01:00:32
I'm saying is look the fact that you've
01:00:34
got some Jewish answer street is not in
01:00:36
my view a get out of jail free card you
01:00:39
making political decision je part are
01:00:42
say are you saying he knowingly cheered
01:00:44
for a Nazi you know one of the big
01:00:46
backers of the aoff Battalion is a
01:00:49
Ukrainian olar named Igor kosi kosi is
01:00:53
Jewish you ask me my opinion I'm just
01:00:55
saying do you do you think he knowingly
01:00:57
cheered for a Nazi is that what you're
01:00:58
insinuating I think he knowingly cheered
01:01:00
knowing that this Ukrainian nationalist
01:01:02
who fought in World War II must have
01:01:03
been on the German side because there
01:01:05
was only one side F Russians okay I'm
01:01:08
just clarifying here I don't actually
01:01:10
have an opinion thanks for uh quering me
01:01:12
J I'm not saying that he cheered for
01:01:13
Nazism what I'm saying is he cheered for
01:01:15
Ukrainian nationalism and he knows that
01:01:17
Ukrainian nationalism is bound up and
01:01:20
tied up with this disturbing history
01:01:21
which he is willing to ignore do you
01:01:23
guys do you guys let me finish my point
01:01:25
about the ASO Battalion the AO Battalion
01:01:27
is undeniably a Neo-Nazi group it was
01:01:30
funded by eor Ki who's a Ukrainian
01:01:32
oligarch who is Jewish who lives in
01:01:34
Israel why would kaloi do that because
01:01:37
the aof Battalion believes that every
01:01:39
inch of Ukraine including cria and
01:01:41
donbass which has enormous energy
01:01:43
reserves belongs to Ukraine so it served
01:01:46
the business interests of the energy
01:01:48
magnates in Ukraine to support these
01:01:51
people and that look politics makes for
01:01:53
strange bed fellows yeah what I was
01:01:55
going to say actually yeah so I'm not
01:01:57
saying that zalinski or Ki or anybody
01:02:01
else is a Nazi because they aligned with
01:02:03
these people I'm saying they found it
01:02:05
politically expedient and useful to
01:02:07
align with these groups just like the US
01:02:09
state department did quite frankly I
01:02:10
don't think we should do that if you
01:02:12
want to go around the world Jason saying
01:02:14
that we're the champions of freedom and
01:02:15
democracy and having this moralistic
01:02:18
almost virtue signaling foreign policy I
01:02:20
don't think we should be in business or
01:02:22
aligned with these Neon groups wherever
01:02:25
the hell they are I think that's when
01:02:26
you say you do you mean me or do you
01:02:28
mean the United States I'm saying if you
01:02:31
want to have a highly moralistic foreign
01:02:33
policy let's say if one wants to have I
01:02:36
would use the word yeah if you're going
01:02:37
to be principled you need to keep the
01:02:39
you need to not support Nazis we're in
01:02:41
agree what do you Jason and freeberg
01:02:43
what do you guys think of just like the
01:02:44
the breadcrumbs in Canada I'm just
01:02:47
curious whether you guys care about this
01:02:48
whole vein of just like competent
01:02:51
leadership nepotism if you have a view
01:02:52
or it's like that is just what it is
01:02:56
whatever I I don't know enough about
01:02:58
Canadian politics really but Trudeau
01:03:00
does not seem to be super
01:03:02
qualified yeah um
01:03:05
so but I don't know enough about it I
01:03:07
mean so just in terms of the Canadian
01:03:09
part of this there's a writer named Jeet
01:03:10
here who's a left-wing Rider but he
01:03:12
posted something very interesting here
01:03:14
where he explained that in the late
01:03:15
1940s and 1950s Canada took in a large
01:03:18
number of former Nazis many of whom were
01:03:20
SS veterans so people like hunka because
01:03:23
they were good anti-com
01:03:25
and then these Nazis proceed to
01:03:26
terrorize anti-nazi Ukrainian Canadians
01:03:28
there was this Ukrainian Hall was bombed
01:03:31
here in 1950 so Canada has a weird
01:03:34
history of bringing in some of these
01:03:36
people after World War II so the point
01:03:38
is was aware of that yeah exactly look
01:03:41
there's no way that any semi-intelligent
01:03:43
person who knows the history of World
01:03:46
War II especially the Ukrainian
01:03:47
involvement in World War II wouldn't
01:03:50
know that Ukraine was on the German side
01:03:53
in World War II
01:03:55
and hunka volunteered for the
01:03:58
SS he was a volunteer for the SS gesia
01:04:01
division so look did the Speaker of the
01:04:03
House know probably not I think wokeness
01:04:05
makes people stupid where they just
01:04:07
think about the current thing and I
01:04:09
don't ask too many questions about the
01:04:10
past but there's a lot more to it than
01:04:13
just like this innocent mistake and this
01:04:15
has been your update on this week in
01:04:19
Ukraine and wokeness all right there's a
01:04:21
bunch of news about open ey this week
01:04:24
just very quickly openai is in advanced
01:04:26
talks according to the financial times
01:04:31
with Johnny I of iPhone Fame Steve
01:04:35
Jobs's long-term collaborator and masi
01:04:37
yoshian of SoftBank to raise more than
01:04:40
$1 billion dollar to build the iPhone of
01:04:43
AI and so the idea would be uh Johnny
01:04:46
Ives got a design firm called love from
01:04:50
and they would help open ey design their
01:04:52
first consumer device
01:04:55
via the Ft sources Financial Times that
01:04:58
is Alman and I have been having
01:05:01
brainstorming sessions and I of San
01:05:03
Francisco Studio about what a consumer
01:05:05
product centered around open AI would
01:05:07
look like it's very early
01:05:10
stages and son has pitched a role for
01:05:12
arm in the development uh his chip
01:05:14
company that he recently took public
01:05:15
they also uh discussed Masa and Alman uh
01:05:18
creating a company that would draw on
01:05:20
talent and Tech from their three groups
01:05:23
with SoftBank putting in a billion
01:05:25
dollars in seed and then also openi is
01:05:29
discussing a secondary share sale that
01:05:31
would value the company at between 80
01:05:33
billion and 90 billion this should be 3x
01:05:36
the most recent valuation reportedly
01:05:38
though to their credit they are on track
01:05:40
to generate $1 billion in Revenue in
01:05:42
2023 uh I'm not sure how much of that is
01:05:45
the $20 a month subscription you know
01:05:46
that' be pretty extraordinary if that
01:05:48
was those personal subscriptions uh this
01:05:50
would be a massive gain on paper for
01:05:51
Microsoft open a is 49% owned by
01:05:54
Microsoft and Sam malman has personally
01:05:58
has stated multiple times now that he
01:06:00
has no equity so he would be getting
01:06:02
zero dollars of this I and of course we
01:06:04
know that open AI started as a
01:06:07
nonprofit before switching and our
01:06:10
friend Veno
01:06:11
kosla told us very clearly uh that those
01:06:15
are just details uh what happened there
01:06:17
Jam those are those are those are just
01:06:20
details bod is the
01:06:22
goat Sam is the closest thing that we
01:06:26
have to an emergent Mogul in Tech and
01:06:30
the reason is because if everything sits
01:06:32
on this
01:06:33
substrate you're going to need to get a
01:06:35
license you're going to want to get
01:06:37
access to whatever developer program
01:06:40
whatever
01:06:42
beta that open AI has and so as a result
01:06:46
that's already happened by the way well
01:06:48
I was just going to say so he'll be in
01:06:49
the cap bir seat so even if he doesn't
01:06:51
have any equity in open AI he'll get
01:06:54
he'll just put his money into the best
01:06:56
startups that it's like why combinator
01:06:58
on steroid by the way I have a take on
01:07:00
that whole claim that Sam doesn't own
01:07:03
any part of open AI all right let's hear
01:07:06
it go ahead Columbo explain to us the
01:07:09
details one more thing there ma'am you
01:07:11
said you don't own any shares in open AI
01:07:13
but you started open AI right well then
01:07:16
who does yeah that's the thing what I
01:07:19
think is really interesting about what
01:07:21
open AI has done in its fundraising
01:07:22
rounds is that each round has been a cap
01:07:25
return model so explain what that is to
01:07:28
the 100x 100x right every round well I
01:07:30
think some of the very early people got
01:07:32
capped at 100x I think maybe the $30
01:07:34
billion round was capped at 10x so I
01:07:36
think the $30 billion rounds capped at a
01:07:38
$300 million valuation meaning if you're
01:07:40
an investor your shares go up in value
01:07:42
till the company hits a market cap at
01:07:44
300 billion and then basically you're C
01:07:46
effectively cashed out it's like you
01:07:48
bought a share but sold a call back to
01:07:52
the
01:07:52
company the movie industry works this
01:07:55
way right you invest in a film they tell
01:07:56
you you can make three acts and then
01:07:58
it's over right something like that I've
01:07:59
seen that in the independent film
01:08:00
business yeah yeah so so in any event
01:08:03
and I think people who invested like the
01:08:04
$2 billion valuation were capped at like
01:08:06
100 billion I heard that employees who
01:08:08
were getting stock options are capped at
01:08:10
100 billion or they were way back when
01:08:12
they started graning these things so my
01:08:14
point is that if open AI turns into one
01:08:17
of these companies like a Google ends up
01:08:19
in the trillion dollar Club then
01:08:22
nobody's going to own anything because
01:08:24
they will have already long ago well
01:08:26
they'll keep selling new interest like
01:08:28
the new interest will end up being like
01:08:29
8% no cuz what'll happen at the end is
01:08:32
the new people that buy in at that
01:08:34
higher price that that buy out the early
01:08:36
investors they're getting effectively
01:08:38
things like 8% return it turns into debt
01:08:41
eventually turns into some I think
01:08:43
what's really going on here is somebody
01:08:45
has to own the residual value of the
01:08:48
company call it the far out of the money
01:08:50
call that's how they get around the IRS
01:08:52
problem of it being not Equity that's
01:08:54
how they say that it's not equity in a
01:08:56
private Corporation yeah but I think I's
01:08:58
so brilliant about it is okay so look
01:09:00
Sam set up this Foundation it's a
01:09:02
nonprofit but he controls that
01:09:04
effectively right y so yes he
01:09:06
technically is not an owner of the
01:09:08
shares the foundation is but what can't
01:09:10
you do with the foundation that you
01:09:13
could do with personal ownership other
01:09:15
than maybe buying a personal residence I
01:09:17
mean you can buy a plane I think look at
01:09:19
the church of Scientology they own a lot
01:09:21
of real estate so my point is not only
01:09:24
do I think that Sam really owns open AI
01:09:27
through the Fig Leaf this Foundation I
01:09:29
think he owns 100% of it in the event
01:09:31
that the call option is struck meaning
01:09:34
it ends up being a trillion dollar
01:09:35
company are are you saying Sam is elron
01:09:38
hubber in this example let's not
01:09:41
speculate too much oh it's just details
01:09:43
right as V said those are just details I
01:09:46
am speculating but I think it's informed
01:09:49
speculation if you wanted to become the
01:09:50
world's first trillionaire and you were
01:09:52
extremely
01:09:54
uh premeditated about it clever and
01:09:56
premeditated about it what would you do
01:09:59
number one you would want to choose a
01:10:01
moonshot type area that was a world
01:10:03
changing technology AI certainly
01:10:04
qualifies ultimate so does cold fusion
01:10:07
maybe crypto does as I understand it Sam
01:10:09
has bets in all three of those areas
01:10:11
number two you would want to figure out
01:10:14
a way to own as much of it as you could
01:10:16
really 100% if you could and that's a
01:10:19
very hard thing to do when you're
01:10:21
running a capital intensive startup but
01:10:23
in vors tend to underestimate the power
01:10:26
law and the value of the far out ofthe
01:10:28
money call option so maybe you can get
01:10:30
them to sell that back to you really
01:10:32
cheaply and third if you're really
01:10:33
farsighted you would want to insulate
01:10:36
yourself against populist Anger from
01:10:38
being the world's first
01:10:39
trillionaire so you would basically put
01:10:42
your shares in a nonprofit Foundation
01:10:44
where you're not really sacrificing that
01:10:46
much of control or the ability to
01:10:49
control the asset but it gives you
01:10:52
tremendous I this conspiracy theory
01:10:55
where did you come up with this is this
01:10:56
like this is genius this is genius did
01:10:59
just you and Peter teal talk about this
01:11:00
over chess or something how did you
01:11:02
construct this and you're saying this is
01:11:04
informed I love Financial conspiracy
01:11:06
corner I think it's rival science Corner
01:11:09
let's get the tinfoil hats out it's
01:11:10
really freaking Friedberg out that we're
01:11:12
even doing this diametrically opposite
01:11:14
to science corner is it a conspiracy or
01:11:16
is it just reality I think if you are
01:11:18
even 1% right the combination of lawyers
01:11:23
and accountants that would leak this and
01:11:25
the number of people that were part of
01:11:28
the origination of the foundation that
01:11:30
would want to sue will be very high
01:11:33
that's just the natural state of things
01:11:35
in these kinds of things it seems like a
01:11:37
lot easier way but what what but what
01:11:39
have I said other than the fact that it
01:11:40
was sort of premeditated which that's
01:11:42
not the right word that premeditated
01:11:44
sounds too nefarious no no no I'm I'm
01:11:46
just saying whenever I'm just saying
01:11:48
whenever money is made at this Quantum
01:11:50
and at that scale everybody wants a
01:11:53
piece because they know that that's
01:11:54
their one shot so I just think that
01:11:57
it'll amplify the
01:12:00
pressure for actors inside of those
01:12:03
organizations to take their shot and
01:12:05
that's just going to be financially the
01:12:08
right thing to do for a lot of people if
01:12:10
if what you're saying is true we know
01:12:12
the Investments have been made under a
01:12:13
capit return model I think that's fact
01:12:15
that's fact yes we know the nonprofit
01:12:17
Foundation owns the shares that's fact
01:12:19
and then just to put the 800B gorilla on
01:12:21
the table like what's Elon thinking
01:12:23
because he was the one that really got
01:12:24
this thing off the ground because that
01:12:26
critical investment made the whole thing
01:12:28
come to life he could have done this on
01:12:29
his own yeah how much does he own zero
01:12:33
zero I mean but after a lawsuit how much
01:12:36
does he own I don't know uh I'm just
01:12:39
speculating so can we talk about the
01:12:40
technology I'll te here we go so open a
01:12:43
released some new chat GPT features the
01:12:45
key Point here is they're doing what's
01:12:47
called multimodal multimodal is the big
01:12:50
innovation what does that mean that
01:12:52
means the input could be voice the input
01:12:54
could be code the input could be data uh
01:12:56
it could be a picture here's a picture
01:12:58
if you're watching along on the YouTube
01:12:59
channel do a search for Allin podcast on
01:13:01
YouTube hit subscribe hit the bell and
01:13:03
it's a classic picture of one of those
01:13:05
no parking signs where there's four
01:13:06
different ones you take a picture of
01:13:08
that that's the input and you say it's
01:13:10
Wednesday at 4m. can I park in the spot
01:13:12
right now tell me in one line it comes
01:13:14
back and says yes you can park for up to
01:13:15
1 hour starting at 4m. what this means
01:13:18
is the output or the input could be in
01:13:20
any of those modalities modalities fancy
01:13:22
word for an image a video Etc so you're
01:13:25
going to be able to say hey give me the
01:13:27
poster for the all-in conference of
01:13:29
bestie Runner and I want it to be these
01:13:32
things and here are the pictures of the
01:13:33
boys and then make it and go back and
01:13:35
forth and back and forth and this is
01:13:37
really groundbreaking at the same time
01:13:40
last week
01:13:41
goard and S deep modra and I played with
01:13:44
this on this week in startups um you now
01:13:47
have Google flights Google Docs Gmail
01:13:49
and a number of the other core Google
01:13:52
services are now inard so that's not
01:13:55
multi- uh modal exactly um but you could
01:13:59
do things like ask Google flights hey
01:14:01
what is the best
01:14:03
non-stop you know between New York City
01:14:06
and Dubai or from an East Coast
01:14:08
destination that has laid down flat
01:14:10
seats Etc and it really does uh it's
01:14:12
starting to work so this idea that
01:14:14
Google is going to be displaced or
01:14:15
they're moving slow that might be
01:14:18
Antiquated information so those are the
01:14:19
two big big Monumental announcements
01:14:22
just in the last 10 days freeberg when
01:14:25
you look at these two which one is the
01:14:26
more important announcement and and what
01:14:29
do you think about the pace because we
01:14:30
here we are we're about to hit the
01:14:31
one-year anniversary of Chad GPT 3.5
01:14:34
I've been
01:14:35
using a lot of different tools the last
01:14:38
couple of months and I'm kind of getting
01:14:41
to the point that I feel that much of
01:14:44
what's happening is underhyped rather
01:14:46
than overhyped there's some really
01:14:49
incredible potential emerging um I'll
01:14:52
I'll give a couple of examples and then
01:14:53
I'll talk about the mobile phone first
01:14:55
is uh Andre kpi as you guys see in the
01:14:58
tweet that I just posted in the chat
01:15:01
made a point today that llms are
01:15:04
emerging not just as a chatbot but as a
01:15:06
kernel process meaning a new type of
01:15:08
operating system that can do input and
01:15:10
output across different modalities can
01:15:12
interpret code can access the internet
01:15:15
and information and then can render
01:15:16
things in a visual way or in an audio
01:15:19
way that the user wants to consume it so
01:15:22
as a result llm become the core driver
01:15:24
to a new type of computing interface
01:15:27
there was a paper published and I'll uh
01:15:29
share the link to this paper here as
01:15:30
well and we can put it in the the notes
01:15:32
it's not worth pulling up on the screen
01:15:34
that showed that using llms in
01:15:36
autonomous driving can actually
01:15:38
significantly improve the performance of
01:15:41
the neural Nets that the autonomous cars
01:15:44
are trained on so the autonomous car is
01:15:45
typically trained on a bunch of sensor
01:15:47
data that comes in and then that sensor
01:15:49
data determines what sort of action to
01:15:51
take with the car and what this team
01:15:53
showed is that if you actually put in a
01:15:56
communication layer that thinks and
01:15:57
talks like a human in between the sensor
01:15:59
data and the action data it can do
01:16:02
really wide raging interpretations of
01:16:04
the data that otherwise would not be
01:16:05
apparent from the data set it was
01:16:07
trained on so for example you can see a
01:16:09
person down the road and ask it what do
01:16:12
you think that person's going to do next
01:16:13
and the llm because it's trained on a
01:16:15
much larger Corpus of data than just
01:16:18
sensor data from Cars it can make a
01:16:20
really good humanlike interpretation of
01:16:22
that feedb decision back into the
01:16:24
control system of the car and have the
01:16:26
car do something more intelligently than
01:16:28
it otherwise would have been able to do
01:16:30
so these llms are becoming a lot more
01:16:32
like a software um operating system and
01:16:35
you can kind of extend that into Mobile
01:16:36
phones mobile phones originally were
01:16:38
just voice and then they were single
01:16:40
lines of text in the form of SMS then
01:16:42
you were able to browse the web and then
01:16:44
the app Revolution came about where all
01:16:45
of this information emerged through apps
01:16:47
what llms now allow perhaps is that the
01:16:50
entire operating system of the phone can
01:16:52
run and render any sort of application
01:16:54
or any sort of service or product you
01:16:56
might want to use on the fly in Stream
01:17:00
So the input to the phone can be voice
01:17:02
it can be visual it can be video and the
01:17:04
output can be rendered by perhaps a
01:17:06
bunch of what might otherwise be called
01:17:07
apps but call it third party developers
01:17:09
that build in stream into that chat
01:17:12
that's no longer looks like a chat
01:17:13
interface like we see on chat GPT but
01:17:15
can be rendered visually can be rendered
01:17:17
with audio can be rendered in a bunch of
01:17:18
different ways so if mobile really is
01:17:20
the dominant Tech Hardware platform that
01:17:23
humans are using uh for computing today
01:17:26
llms and these sorts of tools can become
01:17:28
the dominant operating system on that
01:17:29
hardware and you can totally rethink the
01:17:31
modality of how you use Computing
01:17:33
through applications today we have an
01:17:35
app store and we download apps and use
01:17:36
them and that all becomes instream in an
01:17:39
llm or or chat type interface that can
01:17:41
be accessed in a bunch of different ways
01:17:43
so for me there's a really bigger thing
01:17:45
that's happening that's not just about
01:17:46
making Smarter Tools and increasing
01:17:48
productivity but a real revolution in
01:17:50
Computing itself that seems to be
01:17:53
emergent and I think kpa's tweet this
01:17:54
morning some of the stuff I've been
01:17:56
playing with some of the papers I've
01:17:57
been reading and some of the speculation
01:17:59
around a mobile Hardware start to
01:18:00
support that thesis and I think it's
01:18:02
going to be really significant it's a
01:18:03
wholesale rewriting of computing
01:18:05
Computing interfaces human computer
01:18:07
interaction that's going to rethink
01:18:09
everything and it's it seems to be um
01:18:11
pretty substantial and and just using a
01:18:12
bunch of tools myself I'm blown away
01:18:14
every single time with what you can do
01:18:17
yeah I mean right now I would agree with
01:18:19
you strongly agree because this was some
01:18:22
this was magic links vision for the
01:18:25
future which is you would talk to agents
01:18:27
as they called them this was a a company
01:18:29
that existed in the '90s before
01:18:31
smartphones existed it was a physical
01:18:32
device Sony made the device and the
01:18:34
operating system the concept was you
01:18:36
would say I'm looking for a flight to go
01:18:38
to this place the agent would go out it
01:18:40
would do a bunch of work and then come
01:18:41
back to you with the options so not just
01:18:44
a Google search coming back with 10 Blue
01:18:45
Links but actually just solving your
01:18:47
problem and if the interface is from
01:18:50
General magic right General magic right
01:18:52
yeah right right and there's a movie
01:18:54
General Magic the movie you can look at
01:18:56
the Wikipedia uh company but this was a
01:18:58
lot of like the early work in this area
01:19:00
and uh I think this is going to become
01:19:02
the interface in lm's talking to each
01:19:04
other then the question becomes who owns
01:19:06
this how many of these are there are
01:19:08
they verticalized so what what do you
01:19:10
think the game on the field is here uh
01:19:12
sack well I I think this is super
01:19:15
interesting I don't know if this
01:19:16
qualifies as a science corner but this
01:19:18
is the most interesting science Corner
01:19:19
you've ever done at a minimum it's a
01:19:20
nerd Corner yeah it's a nerd corner
01:19:23
science Corner into into an intersecting
01:19:24
realm so we can all be involved yeah I
01:19:26
don't know how we crowbar an Uranus joke
01:19:28
into this but let's let's keep our eyes
01:19:31
wide open here yeah okay so on the phone
01:19:34
I think what's interesting there just to
01:19:35
boil it down is you're talking about
01:19:37
replacing the main interface which is
01:19:40
currently a wall of apps right and yep
01:19:43
you push you tap an app to go into the
01:19:45
app and then you interact with it you're
01:19:47
talking about replacing all that with
01:19:48
basically voice so imagine if visual
01:19:51
yeah or visual if you
01:19:53
gles to
01:19:55
it and ra rather than double click on an
01:19:58
app the app developers as they're call
01:20:01
today are basically building instream
01:20:03
utilities that are part of the chat
01:20:05
interface that that is the phone itself
01:20:07
and that's what's going to be so
01:20:08
compelling you have to re like we used
01:20:10
to write websites then we wrote apps and
01:20:12
now we're going to write these kind of
01:20:13
instream services these plugins Alexa
01:20:16
was gonna do this
01:20:18
yeah Siri kind of sucks it just doesn't
01:20:21
work that well but imagine if the phone
01:20:24
perfectly understood what you were
01:20:25
saying then you would just say call me
01:20:27
an Uber order me food whatever Andis you
01:20:30
would just instruct it precisely it it's
01:20:32
like in that movie was it her her the
01:20:35
wae Phoenix movie God that that should
01:20:37
have been my background today what am I
01:20:38
thinking you've disappointed all the
01:20:40
science Corner fans I think it's a Spike
01:20:41
Jones movie he did a really good job
01:20:43
with that man that movie is looking more
01:20:45
and more like it's going happen we got
01:20:47
to do a rewatchable on that yeah we
01:20:49
should rewatch it you won't even really
01:20:50
need the pain of glass if you can just
01:20:53
talk to it with an earpiece now I think
01:20:55
you're right that the phone needs to
01:20:56
know what you're looking at or it can do
01:20:59
so much more if it has all those senses
01:21:02
that's part of the multimodal demo that
01:21:04
Che that open I showed this week is it
01:21:06
has video and it has camera inter
01:21:08
integration and remember in human
01:21:11
computer interaction it's often a lot
01:21:13
easier for a human to interact with a
01:21:15
visual representation of stuff on a
01:21:17
screen than to hear stuff in audio so we
01:21:21
we will still need some sort of visual
01:21:23
display whether it's a screen or an
01:21:25
eyass or something that shows us a bunch
01:21:27
of information in a way Sam apparently
01:21:30
talk about the ecosystem he's trying to
01:21:32
create Sam apparently invested in a
01:21:35
company that was Hardware plus software
01:21:37
for like journaling like you would hang
01:21:40
like a necklace around your neck a
01:21:42
camera type device a wearable a wearable
01:21:44
device a wearable okay and it would
01:21:46
record everything and it would be like
01:21:48
your memory backup and you'd be able to
01:21:50
query it so that was William Gibson's uh
01:21:54
plotline in one of his books where he
01:21:56
had a little Zeppelin that would follow
01:21:58
people around uh and record everything
01:22:00
and then you'd have a DVR of your entire
01:22:02
life and that would be completely
01:22:03
indexed and then you could the AI would
01:22:06
know your entire life and be able to
01:22:07
advise you do you guys use the feature
01:22:09
on your airpods where if you leave them
01:22:11
in it will read you the messages from
01:22:13
your signal or your incoming
01:22:15
notifications where it reads them to
01:22:18
you obviously you don't so there's a new
01:22:20
feature on the the airpods you leave
01:22:22
them in and if you're working you're
01:22:24
walking around the house or you're
01:22:25
walking around Manhattan like I am these
01:22:26
last couple of days it will stop the
01:22:28
podcast I'm listening to and just say
01:22:30
you know oh poker group says this oh you
01:22:33
know your wife just texted you this and
01:22:36
it reads it to you and then you can say
01:22:38
reply So eventually if Siri works and
01:22:41
then you have those apple goggles on I
01:22:43
think that that is going to be the
01:22:45
eventual interface which is you'll hear
01:22:47
certain things you'll see certain things
01:22:48
some things will be better visually
01:22:51
other things will be better uh didn't
01:22:52
Facebook announce a new pair of glasses
01:22:54
today the yeah those are like their
01:22:56
spectacle kind of things these are the
01:22:58
light AR glasses where you can take
01:22:59
pictures just meant to say everything's
01:23:01
converging a lot faster than we all yeah
01:23:03
it is Con so I I started using a new
01:23:05
note-taking app called reflect have you
01:23:08
guys heard of this it's um reflecting on
01:23:10
things whoa this is progress tell more
01:23:13
I'm just start I'm just starting to play
01:23:14
with it but what it does is you keep
01:23:16
like a a daily log of who you've met
01:23:19
with and what meetings were about so
01:23:20
it's basically a not taking app but it
01:23:21
does backlinks
01:23:23
so that it starts to link together the
01:23:25
people and Concepts or whatever and so
01:23:27
like the use case that I think it's
01:23:28
quite useful for once you've been using
01:23:30
it for a while is okay I I'm meeting
01:23:33
with this person when's the last time I
01:23:34
saw them what do we talk about then so
01:23:37
it gives you like context yeah yeah
01:23:40
that's awesome I really like it's
01:23:42
external memory right because like I
01:23:43
can't I'm like I'm deluged with so much
01:23:45
stuff now I can't even like I forget
01:23:47
people's names sometimes if I've only
01:23:48
met him once or twice so his name is
01:23:50
freberg David freeberg name yeah not you
01:23:53
guys but no it's also getting old you're
01:23:56
sure it's a function of how much input
01:23:59
is coming at you there's just so much
01:24:01
coming at us today right but but just
01:24:03
just having a short log of who I've met
01:24:04
with and briefly what the meeting was
01:24:06
about so I can go back and check it and
01:24:09
at some point in the future I've search
01:24:10
against it but the only problem with it
01:24:12
is I do have to like take the time to
01:24:14
enter all this stuff and it's kind of a
01:24:15
pain it it could just be done for me
01:24:17
automatically like a true external hard
01:24:20
drive to my brain then that would be
01:24:22
very powerful it'll authenticate with
01:24:24
slack and Gmail and do that
01:24:25
automatically and then you'll it'll be
01:24:28
otherworldly it already connects with uh
01:24:30
Google I don't want my slack in my
01:24:33
reflect what I want is my meetings which
01:24:35
they do they integrate with Google
01:24:37
Calendar great and really that's it like
01:24:39
the the main thing I want is if I could
01:24:41
just know everyone I talk to and I don't
01:24:44
need a transcript I just need the log
01:24:45
line just so I can remember I just need
01:24:48
the prompt six months from now I just
01:24:50
need a prompt that I met with this
01:24:52
person and here was the topic that's it
01:24:54
SX have you gone to the uh have you Bill
01:24:56
clintoned your greetings now it's great
01:24:59
see you great to see you that's the
01:25:01
great that's the great thing like it's
01:25:02
great to see you so that you know you
01:25:03
preserve optionality for the people you
01:25:05
have do the same thing so good it's
01:25:08
great to see you we've never met but
01:25:09
it's great to great to see great to see
01:25:11
you is they always say great to see you
01:25:13
adop that it's such a banger to I when I
01:25:17
met uh Clinton I was at a Hillary
01:25:19
Clinton fundraiser when she was a
01:25:21
Senator here in New York
01:25:22
and they sent you up an elevator to this
01:25:24
fundraiser and uh you get off the
01:25:26
elevator and Bill Clinton is standing
01:25:28
there and he walks up to me like three
01:25:31
steps oh J Cal it's great to see you and
01:25:34
he grabs your elbow he shakes I am so
01:25:36
happy for what you did to help Hillary
01:25:38
win and uh you know Jason we're so
01:25:40
appreciative and then you know you walk
01:25:42
into the room and I'm like oh my God
01:25:44
Bill Clinton Knows My Name totally then
01:25:48
I look behind me and I see the next
01:25:50
person I see a woman come out with a
01:25:51
clipboard whisper in his ear the per
01:25:53
next person's name coming out of the
01:25:55
elevator he's waiting that person
01:25:58
disappears oh David Sachs it's so great
01:26:00
to meet you ah really appreciate
01:26:02
everything you've done for Hillary you
01:26:04
know that role of whispering the name of
01:26:08
a person in the politician's ear goes
01:26:10
all the way back to Roman times it was
01:26:11
called the nomenclatura the nomenclatura
01:26:14
Gomen is the Latin word for name sure
01:26:16
it's a how often I call it the name hey
01:26:20
sex let me ask a question how often do
01:26:21
you about the Roman Empire just broadly
01:26:24
speaking was that a grous reference I
01:26:27
thought that was I thought so yeah it's
01:26:28
pretty great it's pretty great I'm just
01:26:29
glad that the rest of the world is is
01:26:31
catching up to our obsession with
01:26:33
gladiator or listen this has been an
01:26:34
amazing episode 4 the dictator himself
01:26:38
jamath potia and Rainman yeah definitely
01:26:42
burn baby David Sachs and the Sultan of
01:26:46
science the queen of quinoa the prince
01:26:48
of panic attacks and the heir to the Ted
01:26:51
Throne the cre creator of the world's
01:26:54
greatest conference David freeberg I am
01:26:56
the world's greatest moderator we'll see
01:26:57
you next time all in byebye bye bye love
01:27:01
you Ted's dad Ted's dead Ted's dead baby
01:27:04
Ted's dead
01:27:06
baby let your Winner's
01:27:09
ride Rainman
01:27:14
David we open source it to the fans and
01:27:17
they've just gone crazy with it love you
01:27:19
queen of K going
01:27:22
[Music]
01:27:27
besties
01:27:29
are that's my dog taking
01:27:34
driveway oh man myit will meet me at we
01:27:38
should all just get a room and just have
01:27:39
one big huge orgy cuz they're all this
01:27:41
useless it's like this like sexual
01:27:43
tension that they just need to release
01:27:45
[Music]
01:27:47
somehow
01:27:50
your we need to get
01:27:56
[Music]
01:28:00
mer going all
01:28:02
[Music]
01:28:04
in
