00:00:00
we're going mullet this week in honor of
00:00:04
your you're closest to Mullet right now
00:00:06
S I see you trying to tuck the lettuce
00:00:07
in it's not going to work we see it back
00:00:09
there well I need the ponytail whoow you
00:00:11
went full knot where is this photo like
00:00:15
a secret camera in his room what is this
00:00:17
no my kids took it oh my are you really
00:00:20
doing a douche knot one of my daughters
00:00:22
is playing with my hair she wants to see
00:00:24
if she can make a ponytail with it so
00:00:25
she made a ponytail and then took a
00:00:27
photo so we FedEd into chat GPT to ask
00:00:30
who it looked like and it said Thomas
00:00:31
Jefferson just serious question did you
00:00:33
do a fit check with with Tucker on that
00:00:35
did you send him that and say fit check
00:00:37
yeah not everything has to do with
00:00:38
Tucker jel the joke's look at the smile
00:00:41
if you guys don't know what a fit check
00:00:43
is ask your daughters a wait what what
00:00:44
check a fit check a fit check you take a
00:00:47
picture of yourself you send it to your
00:00:49
friends you say fit check and then they
00:00:50
tell you if you look good for the day oh
00:00:52
okay it's kind of like it's kind of like
00:00:53
a wellness check but for f how you look
00:00:55
for fashion okay yeah it's like when
00:00:57
freeberg send you I'm have anxiety about
00:01:00
this and then we do a wellness check on
00:01:01
freedberg see if he's going to show up
00:01:02
for the show or we do a wellness check
00:01:04
on you when Alex Jones comes back to
00:01:06
Twitter I'm putting it out there right
00:01:08
now and Alex Jones is on the back half
00:01:10
of the show just to tease it just like
00:01:12
I'm going to tease these photos I pulled
00:01:14
the archives and here I am in 1984 with
00:01:17
my mullet that's a jcal mullet from 1984
00:01:21
in Staten Island on the way to a Boy
00:01:22
Scout trip but I thought we would have a
00:01:24
little fun sa actually has been uh
00:01:27
working he's got his hair stylist
00:01:31
yeah well the gr he looks like a Lord of
00:01:33
the Rings character like an elf and
00:01:35
Warrior no he looks like
00:01:37
Theo exactly so we we'll punch that up
00:01:40
but Shaman actually
00:01:42
surprisingly surprisingly good I can't
00:01:46
look it's horrible freeberg you're not
00:01:48
getting away on touch here it is freberg
00:01:51
looks like I think we should all go this
00:01:54
he looks like Orlando Bloom and Lord of
00:01:56
the Rings right actually it looks like
00:01:57
more like that vampire movie what was
00:02:00
that he does look like Interview with
00:02:01
the Vampire or yeah he looks like he's
00:02:04
teaching gender studies at Berkeley in
00:02:06
his nine nonbinary so if you want to
00:02:09
take understanding nonbinary ethic
00:02:12
gender studies 101 it's coming this
00:02:15
spring freeberg going to be teaching on
00:02:16
his all Mama well done I'll find you
00:02:18
guys a photo I'll send it to you as my I
00:02:20
did have a ponytail I sported it from
00:02:22
about age 16 to 19 when I smoked
00:02:24
cigarettes too and I've got photos with
00:02:26
the ponytail the trench coat smoking Sig
00:02:28
so it fits the fits the
00:02:30
all right so uh in in the spirit of
00:02:32
mullets let's go business first and we
00:02:34
will go to the party at the end let's
00:02:38
get started
00:02:39
boys let your winners
00:02:41
[Music]
00:02:46
ride and instead we open source it to
00:02:49
the fans and they've just gone crazy
00:02:51
with it love queen
00:02:55
of with me again today here on the
00:02:57
all-in podcast the king of
00:03:00
we've retired queen of quinoa because
00:03:02
David freeberg is CEO of a startup he
00:03:05
can still be the queen is the main
00:03:07
product freeberg no so he's the king of
00:03:10
beep he's the king of vegetables off the
00:03:12
Record wait wa wait is classified what
00:03:14
crop you're working on yeah absolutely
00:03:17
okay absolutely it's a SAS comp like a
00:03:19
SAS company wants to keep it on the DL
00:03:21
which vertical they're going after
00:03:22
Finance or sales whatever he's got to
00:03:24
keep those it could be carrots you never
00:03:26
know he could be Captain carrots you
00:03:28
never know just not Beats okay freeberg
00:03:30
we don't need more beets in the world
00:03:32
yeah I'm going to say Noel dude be are
00:03:34
delicious beets are delicious yeah
00:03:36
you're right no more beets beets with
00:03:38
some feta cheese delicious yeah you're
00:03:39
right we more be we need more um
00:03:41
brussels sprouts can be very good you
00:03:43
know saut them look you caramelize the
00:03:48
Sprouts very good let's make those
00:03:50
cheaper free BG yeah bigger and cheaper
00:03:52
and more tasty you know you know what
00:03:54
people people people dunk on but it's a
00:03:56
great vegetable is cabbage I like
00:03:59
cabbage
00:04:00
if you like shred cabbage into a salad
00:04:02
and you put a little olive oil little
00:04:04
lemon little salt Chinese chicken salad
00:04:06
like Chinchin in La that's nice exactly
00:04:09
yeah Sak did you like friberg's
00:04:11
Christmas party last week how was it did
00:04:12
you enjoy it as much as we did oh it was
00:04:14
great oh right saak didn't show up did I
00:04:17
miss the party I thought it was next
00:04:18
week who does a Christmas party first
00:04:20
week before you tell your story a very
00:04:23
kind gentleman Rings the door to my gate
00:04:26
I open the gate the guy drives in he
00:04:27
gets out he's like a big guy kind of
00:04:29
says Mr fredberg and I'm like what am I
00:04:31
getting served and he goes to the back
00:04:33
seat and I'm like oh my God I'm going to
00:04:34
get shot he reaches in and he pulls out
00:04:37
a beautifully wrapped gift he's like
00:04:39
this is from Mr Sachs Mr freedberg um
00:04:42
happy holidays and then he gave me like
00:04:43
a touch on the shoulder or like he does
00:04:45
this thing where he goes like this did a
00:04:46
little bow he got back in his car and he
00:04:47
drove away a bow what is he shler it was
00:04:50
like a when you go to an amort he did
00:04:52
the Aman thing that they do oh right
00:04:54
that no no that wasn't his Butler that
00:04:55
was his valet that's his valet he stole
00:04:58
the valet from the Aman the the it was
00:05:00
the most thoughtful no show I've ever
00:05:02
had I will say sex well I'm glad to hear
00:05:04
that I'm glad to hear that well what's
00:05:06
funny is I just checked my inbox and my
00:05:09
invitation from you is sitting in there
00:05:11
because I've been meaning to go but I
00:05:13
didn't realize it was so soon so I'm
00:05:15
just looking at the date it was December
00:05:17
9th I didn't realize it was five days
00:05:19
ago sorry about that someone in your
00:05:21
household did so we appreciate it
00:05:22
someone new I went but this is my this
00:05:24
is my second or third year going so I
00:05:26
pre I pregamed it I went and I got
00:05:30
protein I got meat I ate a bunch of
00:05:33
steak and a burger and then I went and
00:05:35
sure enough I talked to the staff and
00:05:39
the staff said after much debate and
00:05:42
Haring with freeberg he allowed cheese
00:05:45
this year you allow chees Sushi we had a
00:05:46
whole Sushi platter thing no stop you
00:05:48
didn't have sushi okay it's now now it's
00:05:50
my turn to tell the truth go ahead tell
00:05:52
the truth Jamar I get in the car to
00:05:53
drive 90 minutes 90 minutes to freees
00:05:56
for bad that's the poker trip for me by
00:05:58
the way but yeah now and I Nat texts
00:06:02
Allison and David we're on our way chth
00:06:06
wants to know will there be meat because
00:06:07
I'm driving so I can't text be me and
00:06:10
Ally says oh yeah don't worry they'll be
00:06:13
Sushi and the NAT text back okay we just
00:06:16
got off the highway we're going home
00:06:17
we'll see you later because we don't
00:06:19
believe says there's going to be fish
00:06:21
fine I get there haven't eaten a thing I
00:06:23
am starving ravenous I start I start to
00:06:26
work my way through the appetizers
00:06:28
there's like slight green peppers and
00:06:30
red peppers there's like some falafal
00:06:33
then there was a Spanish omelet all
00:06:34
pretty decent okay and I'm like where's
00:06:37
the sushi and so Phil de says a thousand
00:06:40
bucks there's no sushi and I said no
00:06:42
there's free Berke texted me he said
00:06:44
I've asked all the people working here
00:06:46
they say there's no sushi so I I bet him
00:06:48
$1,000 I go outside to where the sushi
00:06:53
is and you know how we used to make fun
00:06:55
of sky for having the filler fruit at
00:06:57
the game cantaloup like cantaloupe and
00:07:00
honeydew and that's all there was yeah
00:07:02
there was no sushi but there was two or
00:07:04
three rolls with yeah four pieces of
00:07:08
salmon strategically cut just laying
00:07:11
over I won the bet I was so hungry I was
00:07:14
like what do I eat I'm starving so I
00:07:17
keep eating the omelet I keep eating the
00:07:19
vegetarian food and then I see these
00:07:22
brownies and I'm like I'll just have a
00:07:24
brownie then I had two brownies and then
00:07:26
I was like okay I need to stop I can't I
00:07:28
can't have this I'm and I'm still so
00:07:30
hungry I walk outside J C where I saw
00:07:32
you we're having a cup of coffee and you
00:07:34
know what I did I ate five baklava and
00:07:37
then I was like this is disgusting I've
00:07:39
had no protein I've had no carbohydrates
00:07:42
I've had no fiber I've had a [ __ ]
00:07:44
3,000 calories of sugar I grabbed Nat
00:07:46
and I charged home I was so mad he did
00:07:49
he Irish mad I didn't see him say
00:07:50
goodbye Irish goodbye freeberg and I
00:07:52
talked about it yesterday we talked it
00:07:53
out but I was I I must have had 6,000
00:07:57
calories at his Christmas part coming
00:07:59
over to chof tonight yeah it's only
00:08:00
going to be TR tip the whole night I'm
00:08:02
sure not a singal Insight it sounds like
00:08:05
Jal pre-loaded the meat he uh did he got
00:08:07
ready absolutely I on the way no
00:08:09
seriously after last year last year I
00:08:11
left that party and I just typed in I
00:08:13
just said to my you go to closest in an
00:08:17
outb and I literally got a double double
00:08:20
and then I just had a second one on the
00:08:22
way up this time I I literally had a
00:08:24
steak for dinner and then I went and
00:08:25
then I I too had some po have you guys
00:08:27
ever had Popeyes of course course
00:08:29
I had never had it my son asked to get
00:08:32
it last week last weekend i' never had
00:08:34
it can you believe it here we go it is
00:08:36
the most incredible thing I've ever
00:08:38
tasted these Popeye sandwiches wow wait
00:08:41
for the Out of Touch YouTube comments
00:08:43
Jam is out of touch popey the problem is
00:08:45
not the eating of it it's it's how you
00:08:46
feel two hours later but I mean I've had
00:08:48
Chick-fil-A you know I've done the
00:08:50
chicken sandwiches at other places never
00:08:53
po pies is
00:08:55
incredible incredible so then I I I had
00:08:59
not almost on the edge of convincing her
00:09:01
to go to popey's on the way home but we
00:09:03
missed the closing time so we couldn't
00:09:05
get it I got go to starbird or bonchan
00:09:07
those are two other Elite bro not not
00:09:10
I'm not talking fancy chicken I've had
00:09:12
like the fancy chicken sandwiches I'm
00:09:13
saying Popeyes is incredible I like it I
00:09:17
like austerity chath here we go have you
00:09:19
had a FL of fish all right let's get the
00:09:21
show started here of course with me
00:09:23
again the king of beep the dictator and
00:09:26
the Rainman let's get to work everybody
00:09:29
epic the makers of fortnite just won a
00:09:32
huge
00:09:33
case with Google over the play app store
00:09:35
on Android phones for those of you don't
00:09:37
know app stores have become an
00:09:39
absolutely huge business for Apple and
00:09:42
Google Google App Store generates 50
00:09:44
billion dollar of Revenue a year now
00:09:46
that's about 177% of Google's total
00:09:49
revenue Apple's App Store and services
00:09:51
85 billion in annual revenue these are
00:09:54
on top of their franchises of hardware
00:09:57
and search but Jan San Francisco
00:10:00
unanimously found that Google violated
00:10:02
California's Federal antitrust laws
00:10:04
through sweetheart deals and annoying
00:10:07
workarounds that stifled competition for
00:10:09
example Google got spooked that other
00:10:12
game developers would follow epic's lead
00:10:15
and launch their own app stores or route
00:10:17
people directly to their websites to
00:10:19
avoid the 30% take rate some might call
00:10:22
it attack Google calculated they would
00:10:24
lose 2 billion to 3.5 billion in Revenue
00:10:28
annually if the other major game
00:10:30
developers followed epic so they created
00:10:33
a program Coden named project hug where
00:10:36
they basically P out bribes or
00:10:38
incentives to discourage large
00:10:40
developers from building their own
00:10:41
competitive app stores they also gave
00:10:43
Spotify a sweetheart deal of
00:10:45
z% and Google paid Activision
00:10:48
$360 million to keep in the Play
00:10:52
Store and the discovery in this case was
00:10:55
absolutely wild according to testimony
00:10:57
in the trial Google had deleted Ed some
00:10:59
employees chat
00:11:00
logs and the judge told the jury to
00:11:03
assume that the deleted information
00:11:05
wouldn't have been favorable to Google
00:11:07
Dre only deliberated a few hours and
00:11:09
Google plans to appeal the verdict
00:11:12
obviously epic isn't seeking damages
00:11:15
they just want Google to change their
00:11:17
practices they want to basically let
00:11:18
people plug in their own Billing System
00:11:20
to avoid the 30% tax we'll see what
00:11:23
happens next freeberg these stores
00:11:26
clearly have monopolistic
00:11:27
characteristics but
00:11:29
and Google actually allows for third
00:11:31
party app stores maybe you can explain
00:11:33
why you think Apple won their case
00:11:35
against epic but Google lost these are
00:11:38
pretty different cases the Apple case
00:11:40
was a judge this one was a a jury of
00:11:45
citizens in federal
00:11:47
court I think it's worth just backing up
00:11:50
a minute and talking about the history
00:11:51
of like apps on phones and how Android
00:11:53
came to be prior to Google acquiring
00:11:56
Android you guys may remember there were
00:11:57
a few companies that were were the
00:11:59
dominant OS providers operating system
00:12:01
providers to mobile phones there was
00:12:03
Nokia there was
00:12:05
Microsoft there was Apple and there was
00:12:07
also blackberry and at the time a lot of
00:12:11
the Telos the Verizon and AT&T of the
00:12:14
world prior to this were trying to make
00:12:16
money by charging for people to install
00:12:18
apps on phones so that was the first
00:12:19
business model in the mobile internet
00:12:22
was the Telco would make money and
00:12:24
everyone fought against it all the open
00:12:26
internet providers said this is
00:12:27
ridiculous and it was clear that that
00:12:29
was not going to be allowed so
00:12:31
ultimately these operating systems
00:12:32
became the play and which operating
00:12:34
system was on which mobile phone and
00:12:36
what did that operating system then
00:12:38
allow to control what apps were allowed
00:12:40
and so on so the reason Google bought
00:12:42
Android is they wanted to make an
00:12:43
open-source alternative to all of these
00:12:45
closed app and closed systems so Google
00:12:48
bought Android 2005 made a huge
00:12:51
investment in growing the team and
00:12:53
allowed anyone to use the Android OS
00:12:56
Fork it make their own versions of it
00:12:58
install it on their own Hardware run it
00:12:59
however they wanted meanwhile Google
00:13:02
made an internal version of Android that
00:13:04
could be used on any mobile handset
00:13:06
company's phone as a pre-installed OS
00:13:09
now why did Google want to do this they
00:13:10
wanted to do this number one to make
00:13:12
sure that the internet was still open
00:13:13
and it wasn't going to end up being
00:13:15
closed from a user's perspective and
00:13:17
number two so that anyone could install
00:13:19
any app they wanted and the commercial
00:13:21
interest for Google which is number
00:13:22
three is so that Google could make
00:13:24
search Google search the default search
00:13:26
engine on that phone and have YouTube
00:13:28
installed and all these other tools that
00:13:29
Google makes money on including their
00:13:32
own app store now in Android anyone can
00:13:35
install any app they want on the phone
00:13:37
and so there's no restrictions unlike in
00:13:40
apple in in the iOS if you try and
00:13:43
download an app off the internet and
00:13:44
install it it has to go through the App
00:13:45
Store it has to be apple verified in
00:13:47
order to be allowed on the phone so the
00:13:49
whole point of Android was that it could
00:13:50
be open anyone could install anything
00:13:52
what epic claimed in this case was that
00:13:54
Google's Android OS gave people security
00:13:57
warnings so if you ever have tried this
00:13:59
you download an app from a website on
00:14:01
Android it says warning warning this may
00:14:03
cause a virus on your phone are you sure
00:14:05
you want to do this this app hasn't been
00:14:07
verified by Google etc etc so it gives
00:14:10
These Warnings that scare consumers off
00:14:11
of doing that so epic can in you can
00:14:13
install fortnite Direct on your Android
00:14:15
phone today and you can do it by
00:14:17
downloading it from epic's website you
00:14:18
don't have to go through the Google Play
00:14:20
Store and you can enter your credit card
00:14:21
and you can pay for stuff so it is it is
00:14:23
an open system that allows that what
00:14:25
these guys are claiming is that because
00:14:28
Google can default the Google Play Store
00:14:30
on the phone it's basically what most
00:14:31
consumers are going to use anyway and so
00:14:33
they're saying it's not fair and because
00:14:35
they also have influence over the OS and
00:14:37
they're putting these security warnings
00:14:38
it's inappropriate because now it's
00:14:39
scaring people from downloading stuff
00:14:41
off the internet so that's the big claim
00:14:42
epic's making so Google has already said
00:14:44
they're going to appeal this case
00:14:45
because fundamentally again if this were
00:14:48
really true and there really was deep
00:14:49
Anti-Trust issues with this you would
00:14:51
likely have seen a federal agency come
00:14:53
after Google not a private company suing
00:14:56
them in a civil case this would have
00:14:58
been a much more more significant action
00:14:59
If there really was Anti-Trust Behavior
00:15:02
but it's a lot easier to win a jury
00:15:03
trial party to party where epic can go
00:15:05
to a court and say hey let's go after
00:15:07
Google they're awful we make fortnite
00:15:08
and all this sort of stuff so they do
00:15:10
have a bias in that sense of being able
00:15:11
to do this Google's going to appeal they
00:15:13
feel very strongly they'll win on appeal
00:15:15
and the markets obviously did a you know
00:15:18
voted with the fact that Google stock
00:15:20
didn't really move anywhere and the
00:15:22
market said hey this is a this is a
00:15:23
nothing Burger Google's 40 billion in
00:15:25
annual Play Store Revenue worst case
00:15:27
scenario like you said if gets impacted
00:15:29
by $2 billion that's 2 billion out of
00:15:31
300 overall doesn't really matter and
00:15:34
likely they're going to win on appe peal
00:15:35
anyway so you know I think the Saga will
00:15:37
continue um but I think Google's got a
00:15:39
pretty strong case on appeal and it
00:15:41
seems like you know it's going to be
00:15:43
very hard to kind of see a massive
00:15:44
change in app store Behavior as a result
00:15:46
of this case even though it's been hyped
00:15:47
up to be that that's my take on it yeah
00:15:49
yeah great take chamath what do you
00:15:51
think about this jury shopping and maybe
00:15:54
the fact that this isn't Lena con this
00:15:55
isn't the FTC you know it's company to
00:15:58
company do you think that the claims
00:16:00
here were valid do you think the jury
00:16:02
shopping impacted this in a significant
00:16:05
way probably I guess the simple thought
00:16:07
exercises what do we think the outcome
00:16:08
would have been had this trial happened
00:16:10
in Dallas
00:16:12
Texas probably
00:16:15
different and so I think freeberg is
00:16:17
right what does it materially prove
00:16:19
nothing with respect to the body of law
00:16:21
it just goes to
00:16:22
show that if you pick the right place to
00:16:25
convene these trials in the right format
00:16:28
you can give yourself a slightly better
00:16:30
probability of winning but the question
00:16:32
is what will you win it's not clear to
00:16:35
me what happens now is there going to be
00:16:37
a damages portion now of this trial is
00:16:40
that what happens next they're not
00:16:42
seeking damages they want changes to how
00:16:44
they operate and they're trying to get a
00:16:45
settlement and they want Google to
00:16:47
settle out with changes to the App Store
00:16:49
policies that's what they're asking for
00:16:51
and then what about the Epic versus
00:16:53
Apple lawsuit is it being done in the
00:16:55
same way no they lost they lost and they
00:16:57
appealed and there's one element that's
00:16:59
being appealed to the Supreme Court now
00:17:00
but basically they lost and that's over
00:17:03
and that was that convened in California
00:17:05
in a jury trial as well in San Francisco
00:17:07
no that that was not a jury trial it was
00:17:10
a judge and but it was California yeah
00:17:13
it was a bench trial in California yeah
00:17:15
yeah it was also in Northern California
00:17:17
that's right yeah so sax let me bring
00:17:19
you in on this do you think that these
00:17:21
stores are monopolies and do you think
00:17:24
if they change their behavior especially
00:17:26
Apple you know Alla the third party
00:17:29
what impact that would that have on the
00:17:30
startup ecosystem because the 30% tax is
00:17:32
significant and we see that every day
00:17:35
with our startups I mean if you have to
00:17:36
give away 30% of your Revenue to Google
00:17:39
and apple it's brutal and then you're
00:17:41
advertising on Apple and Google and
00:17:43
Facebook that's another 30% of your
00:17:45
revenue or 50% of your Revenue yeah no I
00:17:48
agree with that so first of all these
00:17:51
app stores are absolutely monopolies
00:17:52
within their ecosystem and Apple and
00:17:56
Google Android are absolutely a duopoly
00:17:59
within the mobile
00:18:00
space my experience with these types of
00:18:03
monopolies or Gatekeepers is that they
00:18:05
exercise more more control and extract
00:18:07
more and more of the value over time
00:18:10
it's an iterative process in which they
00:18:12
just keep you know extracting keep
00:18:14
taxing keep keep imposing more rules on
00:18:17
the ecosystem for their benefit and to
00:18:19
the detriment of innovators and so I do
00:18:21
think they have to be controlled and I
00:18:22
think epic is doing the ecosystem a
00:18:24
favor for example on this 30% rake that
00:18:27
you're talking about J C that level of
00:18:30
rake might have been appropriate for
00:18:32
certain types of apps like a hobbyist
00:18:34
app where it's literally 100% margin
00:18:37
okay you pay 30% to the App Store it
00:18:39
doesn't work for SAS companies I mean I
00:18:41
can tell you that I mean this would be
00:18:42
like half of their gross margin or
00:18:44
something like that it doesn't work for
00:18:47
a lot of companies that spend a lot of
00:18:49
money on content creation like epic
00:18:51
which spends a lot of money in R&D to
00:18:53
grade a game like
00:18:55
fortnite break their models immediately
00:18:57
or Amazon with kind
00:18:59
and so what happened is it used to be
00:19:01
the case that Amazon could have a link
00:19:04
in their app at least directing the user
00:19:06
to go to the amazon.com website and you
00:19:08
could buy the book there and you could
00:19:10
circumvent the the the rake in the app
00:19:12
and it was inconvenient for the user but
00:19:14
at least there was a way around it then
00:19:16
Apple banned those links then they
00:19:18
banned the ability for the app to even
00:19:21
message to the user what was happening
00:19:23
so if for example if you use the Kindle
00:19:25
app on iOS which I do all the time you
00:19:29
can't buy a book in it and the reason
00:19:31
why is because Amazon doesn't want to
00:19:33
pay the 30% rake but they can't even
00:19:34
tell you that it just looks like it's
00:19:36
broken functionality so those of us who
00:19:38
know go to amazon.com through the
00:19:40
browser and we buy the book there and
00:19:41
then it magically appears in the Kindle
00:19:44
app we've all had that experience so I
00:19:46
just think that these duopolies have to
00:19:47
be controlled I think that it' be good
00:19:50
if the government could figure out
00:19:51
better ways to do it I don't think m&a
00:19:54
is the right way to do it we've talked
00:19:55
about this before I think that
00:19:57
restricting anti-competitive tactics is
00:19:59
really the way to stop it and like I
00:20:02
said I can't speak to the the details of
00:20:04
epic's case but I do think they're doing
00:20:06
the ecosystem of favor here by pushing
00:20:08
back on these monopolies and helping to
00:20:10
keep them under control 100% agree with
00:20:13
you saxs in your take and I think
00:20:14
actually other people should join them
00:20:16
and the industry should really Force
00:20:18
this issue because you are absolutely
00:20:20
correct that they're boiling the Frog
00:20:21
now they did make some cuts under a
00:20:22
million I think they charge 15% on the
00:20:24
first million so they try to be nice to
00:20:26
the smaller developers pull it up not
00:20:28
look it's actually the larger ones too
00:20:30
pull up the the link I just said so
00:20:32
you'll see here Google charges um
00:20:34
through the Play Store if you D if you
00:20:36
want to have distribution I mean think
00:20:37
about the Play Store as being like a
00:20:38
retailer you make clothing you need to
00:20:41
have a retail store that someone can go
00:20:42
to and buy stuff the retail store has to
00:20:44
make money you're not going to have a
00:20:45
retail store that's free so how does the
00:20:47
retail store make money well they charge
00:20:49
98% of apps as you can see here are free
00:20:52
because you know they they don't make
00:20:53
any money on that but then if you start
00:20:54
to charge subscriptions it's 15% take on
00:20:57
automatically renewing subscriptions
00:20:59
where it's easier the second year yeah
00:21:01
yeah it's easier no each year look at
00:21:03
the second no it's for renewing so I
00:21:06
know this because of Comm so in the
00:21:08
first year it's for it's for renewing
00:21:10
subscriptions subscription products so
00:21:12
all subscriptions that have an automatic
00:21:14
renewal feature to them are instantly at
00:21:16
15% and as a result you know you can
00:21:19
think about the what is it worth to get
00:21:20
a user to not have to enter their credit
00:21:22
card info you know plus the credit card
00:21:24
fees it's like 15% is not too crazy
00:21:27
honestly I'm just you know I'm not
00:21:28
trying to be a super Google advocate but
00:21:30
I'm just saying like I don't think
00:21:31
that's too crazy and then they've got
00:21:32
this like negotiated tier where if you
00:21:34
are a very large app developer and you
00:21:36
want to go and negotiate with Google
00:21:37
they have a bis Dev team like Spotify
00:21:39
and others get where they'll negotiate
00:21:41
fees down and you can actually go and
00:21:43
like argue for better economics so
00:21:45
they've tried to be commercial which I'm
00:21:46
guessing is probably why Lena Khan and
00:21:49
others haven't gone after them for
00:21:50
Anti-Trust monopolistic Behavior because
00:21:53
they've tried to find the the
00:21:54
comfortable place where it's not going
00:21:55
to be too crazy at least that's my read
00:21:57
on what's going on on because otherwise
00:21:58
I mean obviously folks would be all over
00:22:00
him you know if it really was monop the
00:22:02
boiling of the Frog issue is the one for
00:22:03
me because then they want to charge you
00:22:05
now for placement in the App Store and
00:22:07
get revenue from you there oh yeah I
00:22:09
mean that's that's Amazon too Amazon's
00:22:11
got that like everyone's gotten every D
00:22:13
Toc company in the last five years has
00:22:15
gotten obliterated their unit economics
00:22:16
are upside down now and we've talked
00:22:18
about this both Google's taken out the
00:22:20
margin but Amazon forces you to buy ads
00:22:22
in order to get product placement yeah
00:22:24
and then they force you to pay all the
00:22:25
extra fees for inventory Amazon everyone
00:22:28
way more than any of these digital app
00:22:31
this is the perfect place for Lina con
00:22:32
to get active I think and the
00:22:33
settlement's super easy the entire
00:22:36
industry should come at them in unison
00:22:39
tons of lawsuits group lawsuits until
00:22:41
they allow when you turn on your Apple
00:22:43
phone the ability to load Amazon's App
00:22:46
Store epic's App Store whoever else
00:22:48
wants to have an App Store that should
00:22:49
be your right if you buy a hardware
00:22:51
device it should be your right to load
00:22:52
these and they shouldn't be ankled in
00:22:55
any way and that's the other thing
00:22:56
Android does all kinds of ankling to
00:22:57
make make those with those popups and
00:22:59
hey this isn't safe Etc they should have
00:23:01
a verified App Store program Amazon's
00:23:04
App Store epic's app store they should
00:23:05
be verified or something and maybe they
00:23:07
pay 5% to have a verified App Store but
00:23:10
yeah this is a this is going to be an
00:23:13
ongoing issue and we'll see more of it I
00:23:16
think so let's go on anybody else have
00:23:18
thoughts on it no okay so in other news
00:23:22
open aai is started to cut licensing
00:23:25
deals if you remember we had a big
00:23:27
debate about this back on episode 115 in
00:23:31
February and I was saying hey this
00:23:33
content is owned and and the opportunity
00:23:36
to create llms or derivative products
00:23:39
you know is the right of the the people
00:23:41
who make that content saak you told me I
00:23:43
was going to get rolled over but here we
00:23:45
are I wouldn't say I said you're going
00:23:46
to get rolled over what I said is the
00:23:48
ecosystem is going to figure this out
00:23:50
okay let's play the tape if chat GPT
00:23:53
takes a Yelp review and a you know a
00:23:56
cond n traveler review and they
00:23:58
represent it based on the best content
00:24:01
out that's out there that they've
00:24:02
already ranked because they have that
00:24:03
algorithm with page rank or Bings
00:24:04
ranking engine and then they republish
00:24:06
it and then that jeopardizes those
00:24:08
businesses that is profoundly unfair and
00:24:10
not what we want for society and they
00:24:12
are interfering with their ability to
00:24:14
leverage their own content is profoundly
00:24:17
unfair and those magazines and
00:24:19
newspapers need to what's that you're
00:24:21
steam
00:24:22
rolled that hair there it is man is my
00:24:25
hair worse now or then yeah your hair
00:24:28
was cut back then I think you were like
00:24:30
postco back then yeah much better right
00:24:33
now look like a toue ni can you can you
00:24:36
just show us a picture of that it looks
00:24:37
like you're in the Common Era that was
00:24:40
like a like an early ad this is like the
00:24:42
Common Era now you know that's that's a
00:24:45
toue that's a t it does look like a t it
00:24:48
looks like a raccoon okay J K I'll got
00:24:50
some comments on this because I think
00:24:52
your fluffer has has fluffed too much on
00:24:54
the upper parts and and unflued the
00:24:57
bottom Parts which I think mean listen
00:24:59
don't criticize him when he was in an in
00:25:00
between phase we all go through an inet
00:25:02
phase with our hair it's it's part of
00:25:04
the process now I know why we're talking
00:25:05
about this topic J KS because you think
00:25:07
you it's it's a total non-story or it's
00:25:10
I shouldn't say it's a non story let me
00:25:11
finish let me let me finish it off the
00:25:12
our okay so just so we know what's going
00:25:14
on here openai announced a licensing
00:25:16
deal with Axel Springer to bring
00:25:18
real-time news from Politico and the
00:25:19
fake news from Business Insider two cha
00:25:23
B thank you you literally sound like
00:25:25
Alex Jones I mean Tucker thank all F
00:25:29
news from F news that is true he is
00:25:32
right about that I got one thing right
00:25:35
as part of the deal Axel Springer can
00:25:36
use chat GPT to improve their products
00:25:38
includes all European sites this is on
00:25:41
top of the deal that open ey did with
00:25:43
the Associated Press but most
00:25:45
importantly most importantly I'm gonna
00:25:47
throw it you in a second most
00:25:48
importantly when chat GPT relies on
00:25:49
these sources it'll include a summary
00:25:52
and a link back other examples of
00:25:54
Licensing are happening all over the
00:25:56
industry Adobe is using stop images for
00:25:58
theirs and stable diffusion as you know
00:26:00
that brazenly used Gettys images are
00:26:04
being sued so freeberg you thought this
00:26:07
was unrealistic but here we are no I
00:26:09
don't agree with your Framing and I
00:26:11
think that I think it's unrealistic for
00:26:13
you to frame this as of validating or
00:26:16
justifying the fact that these companies
00:26:18
won't be able to access and utilize open
00:26:21
data under fair use to train models so
00:26:24
that's what's G on historically right so
00:26:26
the open web you know we a little bit
00:26:28
about where folks can get content from
00:26:30
the open web you can browse the internet
00:26:32
you can download all this content it's
00:26:33
all freely available it's readily
00:26:35
available it's in it's in the open
00:26:37
domain and then you can train models and
00:26:39
then the models can ultimately make
00:26:40
stuff based on all that training data
00:26:42
what this deal is is it's actually a
00:26:45
Content integration deal and I'll read
00:26:47
this with the partnership chat GPT users
00:26:49
around the world will receive summaries
00:26:52
of selected Global News content from
00:26:54
Axel Springer media Brands including y
00:26:56
yada including otherwise paid content so
00:26:58
what chat GPT is doing is they're
00:27:00
accessing content behind a pay wall and
00:27:02
they're be able and and instead of
00:27:04
training models on it they're able to
00:27:06
fetch that data as a retrieval aspect of
00:27:09
the chat GPT service so now you as a
00:27:11
user want an update on hey what's going
00:27:13
on with Donald Trump it can search not
00:27:15
it can not just use its training data
00:27:17
but it can recognize that hey there's a
00:27:19
current event news question embedded in
00:27:21
this query and I can go fetch that
00:27:24
current event news answer from this
00:27:26
content that I've now paid for so it's
00:27:28
not a training data set that's that's
00:27:30
now being unlocked which is what the
00:27:31
complaint was before that all the open
00:27:33
web data was being used for training but
00:27:35
it's behind pay wall data that can now
00:27:37
be fetched and integrated and I think
00:27:38
it's more interesting because it really
00:27:41
speaks to a new model for how the
00:27:42
internet will work which we've talked
00:27:43
about which is that there may be these
00:27:45
sort of new chat interfaces that cannot
00:27:48
just send you to another page and Link
00:27:50
you over somewhere but can fetch data
00:27:52
for you and present it to you in an
00:27:53
integrated way in the response it's
00:27:55
providing and these Services have to pay
00:27:57
pay for access to that so Che you know
00:27:59
open AI it's a three-year deal they're
00:28:01
paying tens of millions of dollars to
00:28:02
Axel Springer to access their closed
00:28:04
content and present it to the user so I
00:28:06
think it's quite a bit different than
00:28:07
you know using training data uh which is
00:28:09
what you know the complaint was the
00:28:10
first time around and it's more of like
00:28:12
a really interesting front end feature
00:28:14
for what chat GPT is becoming saak you
00:28:16
wanted to add to
00:28:18
that I don't really have a lot to add to
00:28:20
that I think fre did a great job
00:28:22
explaining that issue I mean look I
00:28:24
think jcal you've had a little bit of an
00:28:26
obsession with this copyright issue
00:28:28
and well protecting protecting rights
00:28:29
holders I do uh believe in I don't know
00:28:32
freeberg makes a really great point
00:28:34
which is there's a difference between
00:28:36
copying somebody's copywritten work
00:28:39
which would be a violation of copyright
00:28:41
and using content that's available on
00:28:43
the open web to train a model to create
00:28:46
entirely new content and I do think that
00:28:50
AI models should be able to use the
00:28:53
content that's available on the
00:28:55
web under a fair use doc do to train
00:28:58
their models for the benefit of
00:29:00
consumers and um I don't see a reason to
00:29:03
try and tie that up in a bunch of
00:29:04
copyright lawsuits if Chad GPT is
00:29:06
producing a plagiarized result then you
00:29:09
may have grounds for a copyright
00:29:10
infringement claim so what I would say
00:29:12
is you know when you look at that fair
00:29:15
use Doctrine I've got a lot of
00:29:16
experience with it having done this in
00:29:18
blogs and and other content companies
00:29:20
you know the fourth Factor test I'm sure
00:29:21
you're well aware of this is the effect
00:29:23
of the use on the potential market and
00:29:25
the value of the work and if you look at
00:29:28
the lawsuits that are starting to emerge
00:29:31
it is Getty's right to then make
00:29:33
derivative products based on their
00:29:34
images I think we would all agree stable
00:29:37
diffusion when they use these open web
00:29:39
that is no excuse to use an open web
00:29:41
crawler to avoid getting a license from
00:29:44
the original owner of that just because
00:29:46
you can technically do it doesn't mean
00:29:47
you're allowed to do it in fact the open
00:29:49
Web projects that provide these say
00:29:51
explicitly we do not give you the right
00:29:54
to use this uh you have to then go read
00:29:57
the copyright laws on each of those
00:29:58
websites and on top of that if somebody
00:30:01
were to steal the copyrights of other
00:30:03
people put it on the open web which is
00:30:05
happening all day long you still if
00:30:07
you're building a derivative work like
00:30:08
this you still need to go get it so it's
00:30:11
no excuse that I took some sight in
00:30:13
Russia that did a bunch of copyright
00:30:15
violation and then I indexed them for my
00:30:17
training model so I think this is going
00:30:19
to result free free can you shoot me in
00:30:22
the face and let me know when this
00:30:23
segment's
00:30:25
okay all right so segment is now over I
00:30:28
was about to throw it to you I mean like
00:30:32
stop with this Naval gazing nonsense
00:30:34
we're in inning one and nobody knows
00:30:37
anything and the most important thing is
00:30:41
that this will get sorted out through
00:30:44
trials that's where you were right Jason
00:30:45
it's going to go to court and it's and I
00:30:47
think we should just not opine on this
00:30:49
stuff because it's esoteric at best and
00:30:51
it's kind of like whatever well some of
00:30:54
it will go to court other ones will be
00:30:56
done in the free market market like we
00:30:57
see here another thing you care about
00:30:59
this more than most people because you
00:31:00
are a journalist and you think this
00:31:02
going to put people out of work I am a
00:31:03
content creator I'm also an author as
00:31:06
you know and a podcaster and they create
00:31:07
all kinds of content I do think that you
00:31:08
should get permission before you
00:31:10
leverage people's work to create div
00:31:12
derivative products correct and actually
00:31:14
you're starting to see this in uh Dolly
00:31:16
and chat GPT seems to be getting ahead
00:31:18
of this because of all the the incoming
00:31:20
lawsuits check this out I started asking
00:31:23
Dolly to make me Star Wars characters of
00:31:25
bulldogs and I said make a Jedi Bulldog
00:31:27
it did that no problem then I asked it
00:31:30
to make a version of this using uh and
00:31:32
make a Darth Vader and it said I'm
00:31:34
unable to generate images based on your
00:31:37
request due to our content policy if you
00:31:38
have other ideas and Concepts you'd like
00:31:40
to BL feel free to share so I said make
00:31:43
me a Sith Board Cat and it basically
00:31:44
made me Darth Vader and so it's very
00:31:47
clear that the team over at open AI is
00:31:50
now taking prom engineering you're like
00:31:52
a clever prompt engineer there well yeah
00:31:54
I got a round copyright here right and
00:31:56
so how silly like all of this stuff is
00:31:59
this is just a a drag coefficient on
00:32:02
development of AI because and on users
00:32:05
cuz now you've got to like word your
00:32:06
prompt exactly the right way well I
00:32:08
think what they're doing is they know
00:32:09
that Marvel and all the Disney
00:32:11
characters all the Star Wars characters
00:32:13
they're very protective of their IP
00:32:15
Disney is going to launch their own
00:32:16
Dolly type stable diffusion product
00:32:18
where you can do this put yourself on a
00:32:19
star make a Star Wars character not
00:32:21
going be any good at this it doesn't
00:32:23
matter if they're good or not it's their
00:32:24
IP and so fans can create their own
00:32:27
artwork that's in the vein of like a
00:32:29
Darth Vader M they can but they can't do
00:32:32
it commercially and what chat jpt and
00:32:33
open ey here is commercial because I pay
00:32:35
$20 a month to chat GPT so that's what
00:32:37
you're missing a fan of course can make
00:32:39
a Jedi cat or whatever all right well
00:32:41
all I know is you played this like way
00:32:43
back video from episode 15 or something
00:32:46
February no no no it okay from episode
00:32:49
115 as if you had you guys never want
00:32:52
then it turns out that freeberg totally
00:32:54
blew up your case he didn't blow up my
00:32:56
case I I will be right and continue to
00:32:57
be right okay now let's go to something
00:32:59
we can all we're definitely not striking
00:33:01
this segment I liked it let's go no no
00:33:02
no no it's spicy we like a little spicy
00:33:04
here I didn't even have to refute you
00:33:05
freeberg just did it it was beautiful
00:33:07
well I mean listen Okay you came in you
00:33:09
thought you had the goods admit it no
00:33:12
he's like playing this way back video
00:33:13
from like 45 episodes ago I finally got
00:33:16
him I finally got saxs I was finally
00:33:18
right about something if you hadn't
00:33:20
claimed you never used the word
00:33:21
steamroll I would have never played the
00:33:22
clip oh my God I have some live footage
00:33:25
I just want to go through it and just
00:33:26
talk about it strike it I
00:33:28
strike anyways yeah so guys there's this
00:33:31
copyright thing I wanna okay hold on let
00:33:33
me let me just reframe let me just start
00:33:35
that again okay you know copyright
00:33:37
issues are okay wait hold on a second
00:33:39
hold on a second well listen there's
00:33:41
this thing I want to talk about
00:33:42
copyright but hold who are you doing oh
00:33:47
these are a
00:33:48
super NBA Live stre when you do a deal
00:33:51
for okay hold on when you write
00:33:54
something and you want to get okay hold
00:33:55
on hold hold on everybody that writes
00:33:58
gets a chance okay hold on a second I
00:33:59
mean if I could get up that high I would
00:34:01
miss the dunk and still be Happ about
00:34:02
you can't just take content he's about
00:34:04
to steamroll okay all right thank you I
00:34:07
strike let's keep going
00:34:09
strike strike everything come on J Cal
00:34:12
you teed up the way back clip of
00:34:15
yourself you teed up the way back clip
00:34:17
of
00:34:17
yourself so you brought I knew you were
00:34:19
going to deny it and I just you brought
00:34:21
this on for you to deny yeah but you you
00:34:24
tried to dunk and it didn't work okay
00:34:26
okay okay has to take the piss out of me
00:34:28
I don't know I'm seeing a trend
00:34:31
no don't bring up the way back Clips
00:34:33
unless you have a clean dunk all right
00:34:35
here we go don't bring it to the hoop
00:34:37
and then Breck
00:34:38
it break it break it he had a receipt it
00:34:42
turned out the credit card was
00:34:44
stolen okay here that's pretty good all
00:34:48
right here we
00:34:51
go you know who actually deserves credit
00:34:53
for admitting that he was wrong all
00:34:56
we'll get to we'll get
00:34:57
get okay Red's coming here we go great
00:35:02
transition great transition great
00:35:03
transition here we go Elon versus the
00:35:05
FCC another government agency is now
00:35:07
targeting Elon this is a little bit
00:35:09
complicated but let me explain on
00:35:12
Tuesday the FCC rejected star Link's
00:35:14
application for 900 million in subsidies
00:35:17
for
00:35:17
Rural Broadband starlink originally won
00:35:20
these back in 2020 when they agreed to
00:35:23
provide high-speed internet to 640,000
00:35:25
rural homes across 35 States funding
00:35:27
would have come from the rdf rural
00:35:31
digital opportunity fund I guess the
00:35:33
government is paying for expanding
00:35:35
Broadband services in rural areas uh and
00:35:38
Starling obviously is perfect for that
00:35:39
it's actually the only solution for this
00:35:41
really she can't run fiber to these
00:35:43
locations so the FCC found that Starling
00:35:46
quote had failed to meet its burden to
00:35:49
be entitled to those funds and here's
00:35:52
the quote FCC has a responsibility to be
00:35:55
a good Steward of limited public funds
00:35:56
funds meant to expand access to rural
00:35:58
Broadband not fund applicants that
00:36:01
failed to meet basic program
00:36:03
requirements Brendan Carr one of the
00:36:05
fcc's Commissioners dissented from the
00:36:08
agency's decision and he did not hold
00:36:10
back last year this is a quote after
00:36:12
Elon aquired Twitter President Biden
00:36:14
gave federal agencies a green light to
00:36:16
go after him today's decision certainly
00:36:18
fits the Biden administration's pattern
00:36:20
of regulatory
00:36:21
harassment this is a decision that
00:36:23
cannot be explained by any objective
00:36:25
application of law fact or policy Carl
00:36:28
went on to explain uh how his decision
00:36:30
was made and why it's unprecedented
00:36:32
instead of applying the traditional FCC
00:36:34
standards to the record evidence which
00:36:36
would have compelled the agency to
00:36:38
confirm star Link's $885 million warant
00:36:41
the FCC denied it on the grounds that
00:36:43
starlink is not providing highspeed
00:36:45
internet service to all these locations
00:36:47
today as noted the fcc's Milestone does
00:36:49
not kick in until 2025 let me toss to
00:36:52
usak thoughts on the Biden hit squad
00:36:55
going after e I mean I can't remember
00:36:58
anything quite like this this is
00:37:00
absolutely extraordinary I mean you have
00:37:02
a sitting member of the FCC telling us
00:37:05
that the FCC is engaging in political
00:37:07
retaliation he sits on the board of the
00:37:09
five commissioners of the FCC they just
00:37:11
canceled an $885 million contract to
00:37:13
starlink what was that contract for to
00:37:15
provide rural internet service starlink
00:37:18
is the only company that has that
00:37:20
capability today it's the only one that
00:37:22
has that capability if you look forward
00:37:24
a few years it is by far the best
00:37:26
providing Broadband from space which is
00:37:28
the best way to get into these rural
00:37:30
areas so what did the commission do well
00:37:33
they cherry-picked they took speed test
00:37:35
snapshots from two cherry-pick moments
00:37:38
in time and so even that probably was
00:37:40
not an accurate reflection of where
00:37:41
starlink is today but they then said
00:37:44
based on those snapshots that starlink
00:37:46
would not be able to meet the standards
00:37:48
in three years so remember the
00:37:50
requirements that they're saying that
00:37:52
Starling violated don't even have to be
00:37:55
met for three years
00:37:57
so somehow they're saying that starlink
00:37:58
will not get there in three years
00:37:59
they're preemptively judging the service
00:38:03
to meet a standard that is not even
00:38:04
required to meet today and nobody else
00:38:06
is even close to meeting the standard so
00:38:09
elon's response to this was guys okay if
00:38:12
you're going to cancel the contract for
00:38:13
us like just save the money because the
00:38:16
competitors that you're giving it to
00:38:19
have even less of a service than we do
00:38:21
yeah so just like save the taxpayer the
00:38:23
money but they're not doing that so this
00:38:26
is really remarkable and what Carr said
00:38:29
here is that the bid Administration is
00:38:32
choosing to prioritize its political and
00:38:33
ideological goals at the expense of
00:38:35
connecting Americans we can should
00:38:37
reverse course this is now part of a
00:38:40
pattern of the federal government
00:38:42
harassing Elon and his companies and it
00:38:44
all stems from Biden at that press
00:38:46
conference saying we got to look at this
00:38:48
guy you know like Tony Soprano yeah we
00:38:50
got to look at this guy you know
00:38:52
whatever um I mean it was like and so
00:38:55
since that's a nice restaurant you got
00:38:57
they'd be terrible if anything ever
00:38:58
happened to it yeah J you do the I can't
00:39:00
do it at any event so Biden says this
00:39:04
press conference we got to look at this
00:39:05
guy and since then they've investigated
00:39:08
Tesla for supposedly building a glass
00:39:09
house which I didn't know was a crime
00:39:11
that's amazing yeah SpaceX which is
00:39:16
partially a defense contractor was sued
00:39:18
by the doj because they were hiring too
00:39:20
many Americans and didn't they weren't
00:39:22
hiring enough refugees into sense of
00:39:25
National Security Ro
00:39:27
that they would surely be sued for doing
00:39:29
if they other way and now they're
00:39:31
they've canel a contract for SpaceX
00:39:34
having the best service in the space but
00:39:36
somehow missing a goal that they're not
00:39:38
required to meet for three years this is
00:39:41
harassment it's transparent yeah and the
00:39:44
question I have is do we want to live in
00:39:46
a country where the government can
00:39:48
engage in this kind of naked political
00:39:50
retaliation against its critics and I
00:39:53
have to say you know there was a there
00:39:55
was a Time in America where you know
00:39:57
Nixon was roundly attacked for having
00:40:00
this quote unquote enemies list where
00:40:02
supposedly you know he had made a list
00:40:03
of all his enemies and the IRS was
00:40:05
auditing them okay we are so far beyond
00:40:08
that point and the media isn't
00:40:11
interested at all and no one's really
00:40:13
interested unless you like what elon's
00:40:15
doing but if you don't you know if
00:40:17
you're on the opposite side of the
00:40:18
political Spectrum as Elon you don't
00:40:20
care and there's nobody who's willing to
00:40:23
say in a neutral way that political
00:40:25
retaliation should not be part of our
00:40:26
system I mean we we have a presidential
00:40:29
candidate running specifically saying I
00:40:31
am your retribution I mean this is
00:40:32
something that has to stop across all of
00:40:34
politics nobody should be using their
00:40:37
political power to do any retribution
00:40:38
against anybody they should be operating
00:40:41
the government efficiently in the best
00:40:43
interest of all Americans to be honest
00:40:45
okay so maybe I don't like that rhetoric
00:40:47
from Trump I don't think it's helpful
00:40:48
but what did Trump ever do that's in
00:40:50
this league I mean everything they
00:40:52
accuse Trump of doing the fascism the
00:40:55
retribution all that kind of stuff seems
00:40:57
to me the Biden Administration is doing
00:40:59
here yeah well I mean he says he's going
00:41:00
to do it he says the first thing he's
00:41:02
going to do is go after journalists and
00:41:03
do you think Trump did no retribution
00:41:05
when he was in office I
00:41:08
mean I have to look through every single
00:41:11
issue heever done one it's interesting I
00:41:13
mean one doesn't come off the top of my
00:41:14
head I I'm trying to remember if he ever
00:41:16
said I'm G to go after this person or
00:41:18
that person I don't remember an instance
00:41:19
of him saying he said lock her up that
00:41:21
was and he never did it Trump was all
00:41:24
talk in this respect he didn't
00:41:27
yes this is what Peter teal said like
00:41:28
you know his quote about him like just
00:41:30
look at his actions not at what he says
00:41:32
he he saber rattles and he says he's
00:41:34
going to do retribution against
00:41:35
everybody but you know then he doesn't
00:41:37
so even talking about Trump in this
00:41:38
context is a deflection jcal the action
00:41:41
is being taken by the Biden
00:41:42
Administration they've now weaponized
00:41:43
multiple federal agencies to go after
00:41:45
Elon on these cases that seem
00:41:47
transparently trumped up a glass house
00:41:50
not hiring enough refugees to National
00:41:52
Security roles canceling a contract for
00:41:55
the for starlink which is by far the
00:41:57
best rural internet service how do you
00:41:59
even justify it these cases on their
00:42:01
face I'm Not Jus I'm 100% I'm in 100%
00:42:05
agreement you think there's this is
00:42:07
politically motivated harassment of Elon
00:42:09
by the Biden Administration 100% he said
00:42:11
it he said it and he didn't invite him
00:42:13
to the eveve summit so you just take
00:42:14
Biden at his actions if you don't invite
00:42:17
B if you don't invite Elon to the EV
00:42:18
Summit it's obvious that he's got it in
00:42:21
for this guy and now it's obvious he's
00:42:23
told people to you know investigate him
00:42:25
and harass him it's obvious so why do
00:42:28
you think they don't like him why do you
00:42:30
think Biden doesn't like him why doesn't
00:42:33
Biden like him because he's nonunion
00:42:34
it's obvious that's that's the beginning
00:42:36
and end of it I mean I'm sure the
00:42:37
freedom of speech things and you know
00:42:39
Twitter doesn't help but this predates
00:42:42
Biden is a union guy and he will not
00:42:45
have non-union people he will not
00:42:46
support nonunion people he is bought and
00:42:48
sold by the Unions that's 100% And Elon
00:42:50
said that that may be how it started but
00:42:53
I think you're underrating the Free
00:42:54
Speech aspect oh I I I said it could
00:42:57
have to do with that but it's definitely
00:42:59
that's the number one issue and more
00:43:00
importantly s more importantly you're
00:43:01
saying enabling dissenting voices
00:43:03
strongly desent absolutely I think I
00:43:06
think that from the get-go they have
00:43:08
sought to exercise control over the
00:43:11
Twitter formerly Twitter now xplatform
00:43:14
because it is the Town Square for
00:43:16
political speech sueded they succeeded
00:43:19
the FBI everybody they had total control
00:43:21
of it until Elon somehow bought the
00:43:22
company which was not in their plans
00:43:24
frankly that was just a fluke I mean
00:43:25
that was something that Elon did out of
00:43:27
the blue because he cares a lot about
00:43:29
free speech and he opened up the Twitter
00:43:31
jails and you know stopped the
00:43:33
censorship and opened up the Twitter
00:43:35
files and we found out that this was not
00:43:36
just a private company acting on its
00:43:39
own it was being directed or encouraged
00:43:44
by they giving TW they were giving him
00:43:46
list of tweets saying hey these tweets
00:43:48
probably violate your terms service yeah
00:43:51
you know and the FBI acting as the quote
00:43:53
unquote belly button of the whole
00:43:54
federal government directing all these
00:43:56
takeown requests totally on americ I
00:43:58
think that the pattern of actions more
00:44:00
than anything mandates that Biden and
00:44:03
his team actually have to address
00:44:05
publicly why it is not retribution the
00:44:08
absence of doing that the absence of
00:44:10
doing that at this point is going to be
00:44:12
more damaging to them than just letting
00:44:14
things go on and claiming down the road
00:44:16
hey this is all part of the normal
00:44:18
course of business now the guy do why
00:44:21
why why would they address it why do
00:44:22
they have to address it the media
00:44:23
doesn't hold him accountable the media
00:44:24
doesn't report it the media protect like
00:44:26
the Twitter files never even happened
00:44:27
remember that zero mainstream media
00:44:29
coverage of the Twitter
00:44:31
files zero mainstream media coverage of
00:44:34
these retaliatory lawsuits why would the
00:44:36
B Administration need to explain itself
00:44:37
why would they even talk about it the
00:44:39
fix is in well I mean now the question
00:44:41
is being I think the mainstream media
00:44:43
are stenographers for one side of the
00:44:45
political Spectrum which is precisely
00:44:47
the reason did you guys on it's
00:44:49
precisely the reason why they're so
00:44:51
upset with Elon with opening up free
00:44:54
speech on Twitter cuz they had total
00:44:56
control of the public discourse until he
00:44:58
did that did you see that thing this
00:45:00
morning where somebody called out the
00:45:02
New York Times for selectively editing
00:45:04
what Hunter Biden said to make it more
00:45:07
broad broad did you see that Jason yeah
00:45:10
they he basically said my father has not
00:45:13
financially been involved in my
00:45:15
businesses and the New York Times took
00:45:17
out the word financially to make it more
00:45:19
broad to say he's not been involved in
00:45:20
my business obviously was involved in
00:45:22
his business did really yeah there's a
00:45:25
clip where they show the article and
00:45:27
they show and then they show his
00:45:28
interview and the interview is very
00:45:30
clear he says it but the New York Times
00:45:32
headline omits the word and doesn't
00:45:34
doesn't put it in a bracket so that it
00:45:36
shows that it was edited it shows that
00:45:38
that was the quote can you pull it up do
00:45:39
you have do you have that thing so crazy
00:45:42
let me find it that's crazy I mean I
00:45:45
would like to think there's a
00:45:46
possibility this was a mistake but man
00:45:48
it's pretty bad I mean this is really
00:45:50
bad by the New York Times and they got
00:45:52
to figure out who actually took that
00:45:54
word out because it's pretty clear Biden
00:45:56
was very involved in Hunter
00:45:58
businesses and that's why he put that
00:46:00
word financially in
00:46:02
there because he was on I think he's on
00:46:05
all the documents as being part of it
00:46:07
and he's in the emails so he was the
00:46:10
brand J ah there it is thank you Nick
00:46:12
you're very good at finding these things
00:46:14
there okay so if you look on the left
00:46:16
that's the article in the New York
00:46:19
Times and it's clear that that was the
00:46:21
quote and then if you play it on the
00:46:23
right it's actually what he said let me
00:46:25
State as clear as I
00:46:27
can my father was not financially
00:46:29
involved in my business wow yeah and
00:46:33
then quote says let me stay as clear as
00:46:35
I can my father was not involved in my
00:46:37
business now if in journalism you could
00:46:40
put an ellipsis after involved you know
00:46:43
three dots and but why would you do that
00:46:46
this is like breaking very basic
00:46:48
journalistic standards this is my point
00:46:49
there's like a format right when you
00:46:50
edit out a word like that yeah you would
00:46:52
only edit out a word if it was
00:46:54
superflous and you wanted to have a
00:46:56
tighter quote you know if the person
00:46:58
said M ah you can take that out and if
00:47:00
you were taking out a long quote you put
00:47:02
three dots and then you it would show
00:47:04
that you cut the quote there was
00:47:05
something in between and then you went
00:47:06
to that in the case of something this
00:47:08
important you would never take out a
00:47:10
keyword like that that this is just
00:47:13
journalism 101 so I mean if this happens
00:47:17
man it is it's the key word in the
00:47:19
sentence by the way it's the key word in
00:47:21
the sentence it is it's the key word in
00:47:22
the sentence so if the person took it
00:47:23
out man who took it out
00:47:26
and this is the problem with the New
00:47:27
York Times is they bury their
00:47:29
Corrections they need to and this is
00:47:32
back to accountability you're saying
00:47:33
freeberg the Biden Administration has to
00:47:34
explain why they excluded Elon from the
00:47:37
EV Summits and the New York Times needs
00:47:38
to explain why they did this or else you
00:47:41
know the mind wanders that there's some
00:47:43
conspiracy going on here or targeting
00:47:46
and I wonder if they changed it well
00:47:47
here's the live story is it changed in
00:47:48
the story did they they change it yet
00:47:51
Luke Broadwater I mean Luke Broadwater
00:47:53
is that a name from Central Casting
00:47:54
that's not a real name is it is it I
00:47:56
don't know oh it looks like they posted
00:47:57
a correction oh here we go correction an
00:47:59
earlier version of this article
00:48:00
misquoted Hunter B you said my father
00:48:02
was not Financial was not my father was
00:48:04
so the only room I have here is if the
00:48:07
person was live transcribing it maybe
00:48:09
and they left it out but this is too
00:48:11
important to not have a fact Checker go
00:48:12
through it and to have to get called out
00:48:14
on it to fix it it just shows how far
00:48:16
the this is the equivalent though J C
00:48:19
putting on the front page I did not kill
00:48:21
that person and then a day later it
00:48:24
buried in page 812
00:48:26
I actually did kill that
00:48:27
person I mean if you the correction at
00:48:30
the bottom of the story is good
00:48:32
everybody sees the front page very very
00:48:34
few people you would agree with me very
00:48:35
very few people see the correction in
00:48:37
the old days they would put the
00:48:38
correction on like A2 A3 of the paper
00:48:41
and it would be small and be at the
00:48:42
bottom in the digital age you put the
00:48:44
correction at the bottom of the article
00:48:45
so it's a little bit better but the
00:48:47
truth is most people don't go to the
00:48:48
bottom of the article so there's an
00:48:50
argument to put Corrections at the top
00:48:52
of the article but journalists don't
00:48:54
want to admit when they're wrong I think
00:48:56
the I saw I saw a list of all of the
00:48:58
organizations investigating Elon and
00:49:02
what was surprising was how broad some
00:49:05
of these
00:49:07
organizations felt that they had a
00:49:09
mandate to look into him so there was
00:49:11
like I I want to say Nick maybe you can
00:49:13
find this on Twitter but they had a list
00:49:14
of them and it was like the Bureau of
00:49:16
Land Management had an investigation I
00:49:19
mean it just makes no sense like it just
00:49:22
does not smell Right In fairness Elon
00:49:25
involved in many many very important
00:49:28
projects so there would be a lot of
00:49:30
agencies that speaks to overregulation
00:49:31
and then you have to drill down and say
00:49:33
okay when are they actually targeting
00:49:35
him and so that's going to be a lot of
00:49:37
part fish and wildlife you know Health
00:49:40
and Human housing I mean it's a list
00:49:41
goes on you might some he fished in the
00:49:44
wrong Pond or what what's no I think my
00:49:47
understanding of it is you know at Star
00:49:50
base there's some estuaries or something
00:49:53
and there was a lot of estu
00:49:56
I mean yes we we protect animals and
00:49:59
whatever this is something that happens
00:50:00
all over the the country where and
00:50:03
California is actually probably the
00:50:04
leader in this but I think some crabs
00:50:06
might have got burned not in a barbecue
00:50:09
but by the rocket I mean literally that
00:50:12
and then this is this this speaks to
00:50:14
what risk are we willing to take to make
00:50:15
progress as Humanity freeberg remember
00:50:17
we had this discussion about
00:50:18
self-driving
00:50:20
cars like if getting to Mars and being
00:50:23
multiplanetary kills some crabs I think
00:50:25
we should be okay with that in fact if
00:50:27
it decimated I mean it's not decimated
00:50:30
but let's just say 100 square miles got
00:50:32
decimated by getting to Mars on planet
00:50:34
Earth well you'd make that trade-off
00:50:36
right yeah it's a I mean this is the
00:50:38
same standard I think I feel around if
00:50:41
there's a mouse infestation in my house
00:50:44
I'm not going to let the mice live in my
00:50:46
house even though I'm
00:50:47
completely ethically against killing
00:50:50
animals killing animals to eat when I
00:50:52
have other options I'm against and I
00:50:54
think animal testing and medical
00:50:55
applications I have a totally different
00:50:57
standard than I think what is standard
00:50:59
in the market today so for me it's like
00:51:01
a a pretty sensitive topic because my
00:51:03
ethics are don't kill animals unless
00:51:05
absolutely necessary and the question is
00:51:06
what is necess what is the definition of
00:51:08
necessary and so these sorts of points
00:51:10
that you're making about you know if it
00:51:12
gets all humans to Mars that might be a
00:51:14
trade-off worth making for some crabs I
00:51:16
don't you know it's
00:51:17
like hard oning the analogy here are you
00:51:20
saying that elon's the
00:51:22
mouse the rocket may have killed the
00:51:25
mouse The Regulators own the house wait
00:51:26
what's the who's the mouse and who's the
00:51:28
house the house is the rocket ship
00:51:31
clearly the think the mouse in the house
00:51:33
right yeah yeah let's pull up this quote
00:51:36
from Brendan car as the FCC commissioner
00:51:38
I thought this was amazing this list is
00:51:40
incredible this is the FCC commissioner
00:51:42
he
00:51:43
said he said the doj FAA FTC nlrb sdny
00:51:48
and an F WS I guess it's fish and
00:51:50
wildlife have all taken action the FCC
00:51:52
now joins them man that's incredible
00:51:55
yeah it's a little bit nuts look at that
00:51:57
Biden quote where I didn't actually know
00:51:59
about the second part I knew about the
00:52:00
first part where he says we got to take
00:52:01
a look at this guy but then he was asked
00:52:05
how President Biden responded there's a
00:52:07
lot of ways a lot you you know there's a
00:52:09
lot of ways there's a lot of ways to get
00:52:11
to somebody I can get to you you might
00:52:14
be able to get to me I might be able to
00:52:15
get to you and uh you know maybe you
00:52:17
watch your back you know you know what
00:52:20
else Biden said there's a lot of ways is
00:52:24
when he was talking about the the
00:52:25
northstream pipeline and he said that
00:52:29
pipeline's not going to move forward and
00:52:31
then they said yeah but the Press said
00:52:33
to him yeah but that's that's like a
00:52:35
German Russian project like how what's
00:52:37
your involved how you do he said we got
00:52:40
ways there a lot of ways we got ways wow
00:52:43
ouch okay so on the Counterpoint
00:52:45
obviously Elon has several pretty
00:52:47
sprawling businesses he has selfing cars
00:52:50
right and they push right they push the
00:52:52
envelope on you know where there's an
00:52:55
existing regulatory framework same with
00:52:57
going to Mars right same with
00:52:58
transmitting internet services Wireless
00:53:00
Communications like you know there is a
00:53:02
regulatory framework for all of these
00:53:03
businesses and he's on the bleeding edge
00:53:05
and typically beyond the framework to
00:53:07
some degree so I think it's like worth
00:53:09
acknowledging at least that there's a a
00:53:12
necessity of scrutiny and involvement in
00:53:14
these agencies given that they do have
00:53:16
regulatory Authority and and
00:53:17
responsibility over these various
00:53:19
businesses and he's well beyond where
00:53:21
anyone else is in each of them so I just
00:53:22
want to acknowledge that hold on let me
00:53:24
respond to that yeah he's well beyond
00:53:26
where other people are in his industry
00:53:28
in terms of innovation he's the first to
00:53:30
acknowledge because I've heard him say
00:53:31
this many times that he's in highly
00:53:33
regulated Industries and they've got you
00:53:36
know massive compliance programs at
00:53:38
Tesla and SpaceX and all these different
00:53:41
companies what we're judging these
00:53:43
Regulatory Agencies on is not that
00:53:45
there's a need to regulate elon's
00:53:48
companies within the framework of their
00:53:50
Industries but rather the
00:53:53
specific actions that that are being
00:53:55
brought remember dojj suing SpaceX for
00:53:59
not hiring enough refugees right Tesla
00:54:01
being sued on this Glass House business
00:54:04
whatever that is and now those those are
00:54:05
voluntary actions in a FCC canceling a
00:54:08
contract yeah three years speak volumes
00:54:11
they actually exactly three years before
00:54:14
the they even need to judge that
00:54:16
contract whether that contract's been
00:54:17
met 100% happened uh this week which I
00:54:20
think is important along this vein is
00:54:22
that the IRS is in charge of making sure
00:54:25
that you can claim the $7,500 EV tax
00:54:27
credit for cars and a lot of us that
00:54:30
have been looking at this issue the way
00:54:32
that they break the EV tax credit is in
00:54:34
half and part of it is about where the
00:54:37
material is sourced and part of it has
00:54:39
to do with the total sum of certain
00:54:42
components of the car and how much of
00:54:43
those are made in the US Etc okay and it
00:54:48
was presume just based on the trend that
00:54:51
Tesla would lose half the credit keep
00:54:53
half the credit and in a bit of a
00:54:55
surprising
00:54:56
move they the IRS came out and said the
00:54:59
whole thing we're not going to
00:55:00
acknowledge anymore so Tesla had to go
00:55:03
and put on the website that the credit
00:55:05
ends as of December 31st so I would add
00:55:08
the IRS to this to this list as well
00:55:11
that's so crazy it's all got to be
00:55:12
investigated I like freeberg suggestion
00:55:15
that prove to us that you're not doing
00:55:18
this at this point because it's pretty
00:55:20
clear that it is happening and it's good
00:55:24
luck luck them to do that just on the um
00:55:27
on that EV subsidy you know one of the
00:55:29
perverse things about this is that the
00:55:32
administration is putting the thumb on
00:55:34
the scales against Elon in favor of
00:55:37
these less Innovative competitors who
00:55:40
have worse products so like Elon said if
00:55:43
you want to cancel our contract for
00:55:45
starlink to provide this rural broadband
00:55:48
that's fine to save taxpayers the money
00:55:50
but by all means don't then give the
00:55:51
money to these other services I can't
00:55:53
deliver what's the point of that and
00:55:55
same thing on the electric cars I mean
00:55:57
the subsid is going to these other car
00:55:58
companies that make worse products yeah
00:56:00
totally this is the key point the the
00:56:03
fact is all of those people who just had
00:56:05
their Starling canceled through the
00:56:06
government I guarantee you they will buy
00:56:09
Starling because it's the best product
00:56:12
so irony of ironies they're just going
00:56:14
to go spend 60 70 80 bucks a month to
00:56:16
put their own starlinks in like
00:56:17
everybody else around the world who
00:56:19
lives rurally I have Starling one more
00:56:22
thing to add they under pressure from
00:56:24
regulator they announced a recall on
00:56:27
Tuesday of 2 million cars to to fix some
00:56:30
of the autopilot software yeah but
00:56:32
that's an overthe a update so the Press
00:56:33
went crazy about that right no no no
00:56:35
what I'm saying is if you read the if
00:56:37
you read the article that overthe a
00:56:39
update is specifically because of again
00:56:42
how it's written regulatory pressure to
00:56:45
change how the software behaves some
00:56:47
tuning in some edge cases my point is
00:56:49
that one could guess that there is an
00:56:52
attempt here to kind of do the death by
00:56:55
a Thousand Cuts approach right the the
00:56:57
drip drip water torture of just like a
00:56:59
thing over here a thing over here a
00:57:01
thing over here a thing over here
00:57:02
eventually companies can get distracted
00:57:05
and
00:57:07
misfire and so the question I do think
00:57:10
is like you know does it make us better
00:57:12
off if all of these little ticky tacky
00:57:14
footfalls
00:57:16
are enforced by the government I think I
00:57:19
think we all know what the answer is no
00:57:21
we have an example that Microsoft got so
00:57:23
distracted by their cases that the
00:57:25
company went sideways for a decade well
00:57:27
but that I mean I think there was a lot
00:57:29
of good basis for that particular anti
00:57:32
that was an antitrust case and Microsoft
00:57:33
clearly had a monopoly just on the
00:57:34
recall thing I did see that story at the
00:57:36
top of drudge or whatever last week
00:57:38
whereas it said every Tesla has to be
00:57:41
recalled and when I see the word recall
00:57:44
yes I think that means you got to bring
00:57:45
it to the dealership and get like some
00:57:47
part swapped out but that's not what
00:57:49
happened no well what's so interesting
00:57:51
is they refuse in these articles I can
00:57:53
show you the New York Times version of
00:57:54
it they refused to write that it's
00:57:56
actually an OTA update breaking news I
00:57:58
don't know if you guys saw this but a
00:58:00
billion five iPhones were just recalled
00:58:02
for the 17.2 update so everybody's gonna
00:58:05
have to bring their iPhones in 1.5
00:58:07
billion iPhones Rec call I got to bring
00:58:09
it to the store yeah you got to bring it
00:58:10
to the store and then they give you this
00:58:12
new journal app I don't know if you got
00:58:13
it in the latest update but Apple made a
00:58:15
journaling app so that you can have more
00:58:17
acity yeah that's the recall yeah it's
00:58:20
Total Recall all right listen now we
00:58:22
keep the red meat going saxs is cooking
00:58:24
with oil Alex Jones the controversial
00:58:27
conspiracy commentator of Infowars Fame
00:58:30
is back on Twitter after Elon did a poll
00:58:33
he got two million people to respond
00:58:34
asking if he should be reinstated 70%
00:58:37
said yes of course Jones encouraged his
00:58:39
fans to vote in this poll so I'm not
00:58:40
sure how scientific it is for background
00:58:42
Twitter permanently banned Jones in 2018
00:58:45
after accusing him of posting direct
00:58:46
threats of violence and hate speech he
00:58:49
had already received bans from Apple
00:58:50
Facebook and YouTube he's pretty much
00:58:53
the the number one person to be
00:58:55
deplatformed as you
00:58:56
know Jones was ordered to pay $1.5
00:58:59
billion to the families of eight Sandy
00:59:01
Hook
00:59:04
victims this is across two cases in
00:59:06
Texas and Connecticut and here is Jones
00:59:09
in his own words on the Sandy Hook
00:59:10
parents Sandy Hook it's got inside job
00:59:14
written all over it Sandy Hook is a
00:59:17
synthetic completely fake with actors in
00:59:22
my view manufactured I couldn't believe
00:59:23
it at first the new town kids oh they
00:59:26
take them put them in our face tell us
00:59:28
their names who they were I heard an ad
00:59:32
this morning on the radio Bloomberg paid
00:59:33
for locally going I dropped Billy off
00:59:37
and watched him go around the corner and
00:59:39
he never came back all because of the
00:59:42
guns won't you just turn your guns in
00:59:44
for my son why'd you do it to him gun
00:59:47
owners forgive my language but that guy
00:59:51
okay there it is folks guy we have a
00:59:54
that guy but does that censor him
00:59:56
unfortunately not but I absolutely
00:59:59
cannot stand that that is just like
01:00:02
heart-wrenching like evil awful spewing
01:00:05
out of his mouth and he still you know
01:00:08
should have a right to speak but man
01:00:10
that guy I was never a big crier part of
01:00:14
it was just my defense
01:00:16
mechanism and I remember Sandy Hook
01:00:20
because I had just become a
01:00:22
parent I had I think kids by that
01:00:25
point and I was uncontrollably crying
01:00:29
when that happened and it was the first
01:00:31
time I realized how you change as a
01:00:33
parent and you just develop this
01:00:37
empathy and then you realize how
01:00:39
precious kids lives
01:00:41
are and I've become more and more of a
01:00:44
crier as my kids have grown
01:00:46
older and I really appreciate that what
01:00:49
my kids have done for me so when I hear
01:00:51
him talk like
01:00:53
that I
01:00:55
yes he has a right to say what he wants
01:00:57
but he is a complete piece of yeah okay
01:01:01
so let's get into this very difficult
01:01:03
question and sax I don't want to force
01:01:05
you to defend you know one of those
01:01:08
horrible humans I think we can all agree
01:01:10
well my my position is pretty similar to
01:01:11
what the other guys said which is what
01:01:12
he said was odious however that doesn't
01:01:15
necessarily mean he should be censored
01:01:17
we have standards we have First
01:01:18
Amendment standards around this AG with
01:01:20
that I agree with that so first of all
01:01:22
let me back up I mean I didn't even
01:01:23
really know who Alex
01:01:25
was I mean I only knew him because of
01:01:27
the controversy I've never actually
01:01:28
listened to a show I'm not really
01:01:29
interested in what he has to
01:01:32
say I do think that if you're going to
01:01:34
play this clip of his mistake going back
01:01:37
many years you should supplement it by
01:01:39
playing a clip of what he says now and
01:01:41
what he says now is he's apologized he's
01:01:44
admitted he made a mistake he basically
01:01:46
bought into a conspiracy theory by it
01:01:49
wasn't just him saying it apparently he
01:01:51
had some people on the show who I don't
01:01:53
know if they were reported experts or
01:01:55
what but they were making a case that
01:01:57
the whole Sandy Hook thing was a hoax
01:02:00
and it was being done to basically you
01:02:03
know get people's guns I mean look it's
01:02:05
nutty stuff I'm not defending it in any
01:02:07
way but he explained that he bought into
01:02:09
that into that theory or hoax or
01:02:11
whatever and he thinks it's a terrible
01:02:14
mistake and he's apologized for it and
01:02:16
the question is are you going to have a
01:02:18
lifetime ban on
01:02:20
somebody for saying things that were
01:02:22
wrong and odious when they have now
01:02:25
apologized and for me it's not about
01:02:29
Alex Jones it's about censorship
01:02:32
remember when this case happened way
01:02:34
back in 2018 it was really hard to
01:02:37
defend keeping this guy on the platform
01:02:39
in light of what he had said and done
01:02:41
because everyone's reacting very
01:02:43
emotionally to it and it was people like
01:02:45
Defenders of free speech like Len
01:02:47
Greenwald who said that listen if you
01:02:49
take Alex Jones out now if you have a
01:02:51
permanent ban it will basically be a
01:02:54
slippery slope and it will create a
01:02:56
precedent and other people will get
01:02:58
banned and sure enough just two years
01:03:00
later Twitter was Banning people like
01:03:03
Jay boria Stanford doctor for saying
01:03:06
dissonant things about covid that turned
01:03:08
out to be completely correct remember we
01:03:10
authored the great barington declaration
01:03:12
talking about how lockdowns wouldn't
01:03:13
work and so on and so even within two
01:03:17
years of this decision around Alex Jones
01:03:20
the censorship was totally out of
01:03:21
control and so I think the people who us
01:03:25
that Alex Jones would become a slippery
01:03:26
slope ended up being completely correct
01:03:28
to me that's the symbolism of the
01:03:30
restoration of Alex Jones's account it's
01:03:32
not endorsing what he did it's not
01:03:35
saying that what he said wasn't odious I
01:03:38
mean look again I have zero interest in
01:03:41
even listening to the guy but the point
01:03:43
is that free speech does require us to
01:03:46
put up with people who are wrong people
01:03:49
who are even hateful sometimes and
01:03:53
stating misinformation
01:03:54
people who put out
01:03:57
misinformation that's what Free Speech
01:03:58
requires us to do and if you want a
01:04:01
different standard it's going to become
01:04:03
a precedent for a lot of censorship that
01:04:05
you don't like I agree with sax the the
01:04:06
only place where I disagree with saxs is
01:04:09
on Twitter not having a right to do this
01:04:13
as a private Enterprise I think Twitter
01:04:14
had a decision to make on what kind of
01:04:16
editorialization they wanted to do with
01:04:18
the content on their platform on their
01:04:20
product and they made a choice I don't
01:04:22
think that I think it was the wrong
01:04:23
choice personally
01:04:25
and we've talked about this in the past
01:04:26
I think you know it's it's great that
01:04:28
elon's making a different choice and
01:04:31
Catering to a you know a different
01:04:32
audience perhaps with a different
01:04:35
product that has more open speech but
01:04:37
that's not you know a government free
01:04:40
speech mandate that's a private
01:04:42
Enterprise mandate and I do believe in
01:04:44
the right to free speech I think it's a
01:04:46
little bit ironic to say that it's
01:04:50
inappropriate when someone says
01:04:52
something that is misinformation because
01:04:54
it's incorrect or unprovable when we
01:04:57
have an entire group of people that
01:05:00
believe in something called religion and
01:05:02
much of religion is based on this
01:05:04
concept of faith and belief without
01:05:06
necessarily hard proof or evidence and
01:05:09
we allow religion religious speech you
01:05:13
know in in many forums without saying
01:05:15
hey that's misinformation or hey it's
01:05:17
not true or hey it doesn't meet the
01:05:19
standards of X or Y or Z's scientific
01:05:21
assessment or understanding and so I
01:05:24
think it's just worth acknowledging that
01:05:25
this whole concept that someone has to
01:05:27
ultimately be the police of the truth
01:05:29
and the police of fact and the police of
01:05:30
information is going to lead to a bad
01:05:32
place and I'd rather have more free
01:05:33
speech with people saying misinformation
01:05:35
and saying awful putrid things than one
01:05:38
where a few people get to decide what
01:05:39
everyone gets to hear so as much as I
01:05:41
absolutely despise this guy you you may
01:05:43
be right that Twitter as a private
01:05:45
company had the the right as our laws
01:05:48
currently exist to decide who they were
01:05:50
going to suspend and ban from the site
01:05:52
however once that censorship power was
01:05:55
created it attracted powerful entities
01:05:59
from our government who wanted to co-opt
01:06:01
and use that power that's what we saw in
01:06:02
the Twitter files with the ad FBI agent
01:06:04
sending takedown requests that's what
01:06:07
happens is when you create the
01:06:08
censorship power people will abuse it it
01:06:11
people abuse it but but more to the
01:06:13
point it's such a tempting power to use
01:06:19
by people in Authority right it's like
01:06:21
the ring of power those tools that
01:06:24
Twitter created it's like they released
01:06:26
a pheromone or something that attracted
01:06:28
all these powerful shadowy actors from
01:06:30
the federal government in the FBI and
01:06:32
all these agencies and so that that is
01:06:35
why I think it's just very dangerous for
01:06:37
even private companies to create these
01:06:38
censorship regimes is that they can be
01:06:40
co-opted and and abused being co-opted
01:06:43
and abused is the issue I don't think
01:06:45
that the issue is their choice in what
01:06:48
kind of content they want to put out you
01:06:50
can go to the Netflix kids version of
01:06:52
Netflix and kids they they control what
01:06:54
content is on Netflix and they provide a
01:06:56
different version than what they provide
01:06:57
to adults and I think like
01:06:59
editorializing the content platform that
01:07:00
you're making available whether it's
01:07:01
user generated or paid for or whatever
01:07:05
is a totally reasonable like approach to
01:07:07
running a business a Content business
01:07:09
the the point you're making is the right
01:07:10
one which is the point at which you
01:07:12
allow government agencies to intervene
01:07:14
and have control and manipulation over
01:07:17
private citizens user generated content
01:07:19
is where I think it crossed the line so
01:07:21
I I don't disagree with you on that
01:07:22
point may I ask to Qui clarifying
01:07:24
questions here because I'm I'm curious
01:07:25
how you would handle this if you were
01:07:27
the CEO of X forly known as Twitter
01:07:30
would you have
01:07:31
reinstated Alex Jones yes or no and then
01:07:33
number two if Alex Jones then as a new
01:07:37
member of the community who's been
01:07:39
reinstated and forgiven because he
01:07:41
apologized and then he did this again
01:07:43
this exact same thing again with another
01:07:46
school shooting with parents would you
01:07:49
remove him for the platform I don't know
01:07:50
that these are yes or no questions what
01:07:53
I would say is that I've written what I
01:07:55
think should be a speech policy for
01:07:56
social media Platforms in a blog post I
01:07:59
did several years ago and what I said is
01:08:02
that I would take first amendment case
01:08:04
law and operationalize it for social
01:08:09
media platforms there are nine
01:08:10
categories of speech that the Supreme
01:08:12
Court has said are not protected speech
01:08:14
because they're dangerous in some
01:08:17
way so for example incitement to
01:08:19
violence is one of them you know
01:08:20
harassment is one of them so I would use
01:08:23
this clearly falls under those
01:08:25
two well people his fans went and
01:08:28
knocked on the doors his fans did his
01:08:30
fans did so as I understand the whole
01:08:32
Sandy Hook thing what happened is he
01:08:34
said the whole thing was a hoax that
01:08:35
obviously wasn't true he paid a huge
01:08:37
price for that his fans then some of his
01:08:40
crazy fans went and harassed the parents
01:08:43
which obviously is not right but
01:08:45
according to him he didn't and I I don't
01:08:48
know that anyone's shown that he did
01:08:49
that I don't think he encouraged that it
01:08:51
just
01:08:52
happened by
01:08:54
got somech fans well of course he does
01:08:57
it's a conspiracy show so knowing it's a
01:08:58
conspiracy show knowing that incitement
01:09:01
to violence is one of your criteria if
01:09:03
his fans after him saying it's fake then
01:09:07
went to the house knocked on the door
01:09:09
and asked the parent to see little suie
01:09:11
because you know she's
01:09:13
alive would you kick him off the
01:09:15
platform
01:09:17
listen the barington Declaration on the
01:09:20
barington Declaration was declared to be
01:09:22
a conspiracy show the idea that Co
01:09:25
originated in a lab was considered a
01:09:26
conspiracy show I don't think you can
01:09:28
prejudge in advance that a show is quote
01:09:33
unquote dangerous factually wrong
01:09:36
conspiracies as I understand it again I
01:09:38
haven't watched the show but I did watch
01:09:39
a clip by Joe Rogan Who provided
01:09:41
something of a character reference for
01:09:43
Alex Jones I don't know if Nick can find
01:09:45
that and play that it was actually quite
01:09:46
good what Rogan said is look I've known
01:09:49
Alex Jones for like 30 years he's had
01:09:52
problems with alcohol abuse substance
01:09:54
abuse whatever he's had um mental health
01:09:56
issues that he's acknowledged and
01:09:57
sometimes he goes off the rails at the
01:10:00
same time he's also been way ahead of
01:10:02
the curve on certain things for example
01:10:04
he told me about the Epstein Island like
01:10:07
10 years before the story broke I don't
01:10:09
know how he figured that out but somehow
01:10:11
he did now that was a conspiracy theory
01:10:13
until it was proven
01:10:14
true and it probably would have been a
01:10:16
good thing for the public if that story
01:10:18
had come out a lot sooner so that it
01:10:20
could have been shut down a lot sooner
01:10:22
so I don't think you can just judge an
01:10:23
advance that somebody's a conspiracy
01:10:25
theorist and basically blackball them
01:10:26
from the internet one other data point I
01:10:29
want to bring up is that this is
01:10:31
something that Elon mentioned is that he
01:10:34
looked at the Twitter tools the admin
01:10:36
tools to see to look at Alex Jones's
01:10:39
account and the third strike he received
01:10:42
that that caused him to be banned from
01:10:45
the Twitter platform by the former
01:10:46
management was he actually insulted a
01:10:49
reporter which was a very borderline
01:10:52
case so you know the things that you're
01:10:54
saying that he was banned for weren't
01:10:56
even the reason he was banned yeah no
01:10:58
that's true I I think yeah so that's why
01:11:01
I was framing it to you as you know and
01:11:04
this is the issue that I think it maybe
01:11:06
what some people are missing here a
01:11:08
mentally ill person like himself if he's
01:11:10
admitted to mental illness and substance
01:11:11
abuse when they do this real when they
01:11:13
when they go on these TI rides or they
01:11:15
go off their meds or whatever it is or
01:11:17
they're just evil and they do this for
01:11:18
Ratings to make money it starts to cause
01:11:21
real world harm people start showing up
01:11:22
on these people uh doorsteps and so then
01:11:25
are you going to wait 10 years for the
01:11:27
courts to do this $ 1.5 billion judgment
01:11:30
and then make the decision while real
01:11:32
world harm is occurring and if you own
01:11:34
the platform my belief is you have a
01:11:36
higher standard obviously believe in
01:11:37
freedom of speech he can make his own
01:11:39
website but if you own the platform and
01:11:41
the platform enables him to reach a
01:11:42
large number of people and those people
01:11:44
are being harmed and parents' doors are
01:11:46
being knocked on demanding to see their
01:11:47
children because Alex Jones said that
01:11:48
child is still alive and they're trying
01:11:50
to take our guns and he knows his fans
01:11:52
are crazy there's responsibility that
01:11:54
comes from this and there's
01:11:55
responsibility that comes with owning a
01:11:57
platform like this I know elon's going
01:11:58
full freedom of speech but I would be
01:12:00
very careful about this Steve scalise
01:12:03
the house Republican whip was shot by a
01:12:05
crazy Bernie Sanders supporter does that
01:12:07
blame go to Bernie Sanders I think you
01:12:10
have to separate there is hold on there
01:12:12
there is a legal standard for incitement
01:12:15
right okay there's a legal standard for
01:12:17
judging that you're saying that these
01:12:19
crazy people were incited but there is
01:12:21
actually a legal way of determining that
01:12:23
I don't think that's been proven I would
01:12:25
do a common sense one which is do we see
01:12:28
real world happening I would just use
01:12:29
common sense do we see real world
01:12:31
happening okay real world is happening
01:12:33
we own the platform we need to stop this
01:12:36
which is what happened that's a judgment
01:12:38
standard right yeah I would I would make
01:12:39
the Judgment if I was the CEO I'd make
01:12:41
the judgment and I would make the
01:12:42
Judgment based on you know the courts
01:12:44
are going to take years to to adjudicate
01:12:46
this and it's my platform I don't want
01:12:48
this happening I would
01:12:50
operationalize a Content moderation
01:12:52
policy based on first M case law you're
01:12:54
right that you can't always wait for the
01:12:55
courts to adjudicate it there's going to
01:12:56
be judgment
01:12:58
calls I would have been fine I think
01:13:00
with the suspension of Alex Jones in
01:13:02
that context because it does seem pretty
01:13:04
egreg just and need to apologize for it
01:13:05
the question is whether there should be
01:13:06
Lifetime banss and I'm pretty much I
01:13:11
think I'm against lifetime banss I'm
01:13:12
okay with timeouts I'm okay with
01:13:14
suspensions for egregious
01:13:16
behavior when somebody has apologized
01:13:20
they've I mean had to pay I mean I think
01:13:22
he's been bankrupt he's had to pay all
01:13:24
these
01:13:25
fines I think he's paid his price to
01:13:27
society so to speak and he's admitted he
01:13:31
was wrong the question is do you still
01:13:32
have the lifetime ban it seems to me
01:13:34
he's acknowledged this mistake if he
01:13:36
does something like this again then you
01:13:39
can suspend him maybe you do the ban but
01:13:41
I do believe in giving people Second
01:13:43
Chances and I'm just sort of viscerally
01:13:46
against lifetime Banning people I don't
01:13:48
like the standard of what can be deemed
01:13:51
dangerous Speech cuz I think that
01:13:54
as saak said there's a clear way to
01:13:56
measure whether someone's inciting
01:13:58
violence or inciting harm versus saying
01:14:01
speech that can be deemed dangerous in
01:14:03
some contexts and then not be deemed
01:14:06
dangerous after the fact covid vaccine
01:14:08
conversations are the perfect example
01:14:10
telling people that there's health risks
01:14:12
associated with taking a vaccine uh in
01:14:15
the period when everyone was worried
01:14:16
about a pandemic killing us all was
01:14:19
deemed too dangerous to allow and after
01:14:21
the fact it wasn't dangerous because
01:14:23
there were suddenly clear evidence that
01:14:25
there may be some costs and benefits
01:14:27
associated with the vaccines and so I
01:14:29
really don't like this standard of
01:14:30
dangerous speech in fact I think that
01:14:32
the biggest changes that are necessary
01:14:34
in society initially start as dangerous
01:14:36
speech and then they eventually become
01:14:38
true and then they become a standard and
01:14:40
then things change my my repeated calls
01:14:44
for reduction in fiscal spending at the
01:14:47
federal level and lack of accountability
01:14:49
in fiscal spending at the federal level
01:14:51
by some measure could be deemed
01:14:52
dangerous speech and an incitement
01:14:54
against the government but really my
01:14:56
point is to call out the importance of
01:14:57
this like issue and after the fact it I
01:15:01
may be right I may be wrong and I need
01:15:03
to be able to say that I think it's
01:15:05
critically important to say those sorts
01:15:07
of things and I think that other people
01:15:08
in their own domains will find other
01:15:10
things that are critically important to
01:15:11
say and that would be deemed by some
01:15:13
standard to be dangerous at the time so
01:15:15
as much as I have great disdain for you
01:15:19
know certain people and certain things
01:15:21
that they may say I do think that what
01:15:23
might be deemed dangerous speech is a
01:15:24
critical element of the the kind of
01:15:28
progressivism that's allowed the United
01:15:29
States to prosper I think it was
01:15:30
dangerous speech to promulgate the false
01:15:33
conspiracy theory that Trump was an
01:15:36
agent of Putin I mean that was in the
01:15:37
steel dossier they basically said that
01:15:39
Putin had
01:15:52
compromat.ru in the white house that was
01:15:54
a private document right that wasn't
01:15:55
like a public was absolutely leaked
01:15:58
during the campaign you're making my
01:15:59
point exactly it's leaked right so
01:16:01
there's like a private document by
01:16:02
somebody I but then it was printed by
01:16:04
BuzzFeed and then once it was in the
01:16:06
Echo chamber it was endlessly repeated
01:16:08
by the mainstream media so the idea that
01:16:10
like
01:16:11
only people like Alex Jones promote
01:16:14
conspiracy theories the mainstream media
01:16:16
promotes a lot of conspiracy theories
01:16:17
and some of those theories if acted upon
01:16:20
by crazy people would be just as
01:16:22
dangerous as the things that Alex Jones
01:16:24
has said yeah we're in hypothetical end
01:16:26
but actually I think you and I are not
01:16:28
too far apart you wanting to take these
01:16:30
harms and operationalize them is sort of
01:16:32
what I'm saying and in each of these
01:16:34
cases it's a judgment call and this is
01:16:36
where I think you know I in in many ways
01:16:39
I'm proud of what Elon is doing and
01:16:40
saying like freedom of speech is an
01:16:42
absolute thing and that's what the
01:16:43
platform is going to be his right to do
01:16:45
it it's his platform and so I'm fine
01:16:47
with that I would I would do something
01:16:49
different if it was my platform
01:16:50
everybody's different you know everybody
01:16:52
can can take their stance I would have
01:16:54
some basic Humanity as my stance and I I
01:16:58
would be willing to give up a little
01:16:59
freedom of speech in my restaurant in in
01:17:01
my Cafe in order to have it be more
01:17:03
delightful for everybody there I
01:17:05
wouldn't go as far as Banning people
01:17:06
talking about covid but yeah if somebody
01:17:08
was trying to claim that parents have
01:17:11
murdered children were liars and actors
01:17:13
that would be fine for me to say yeah no
01:17:15
good um and then of course there's Kanye
01:17:17
so you know Elon ban Kanye that was
01:17:19
under his realm and and this is what
01:17:21
Kanye said and I think this falls into
01:17:23
speech and real world harm I'm a bit
01:17:24
sleepy tonight but when I wake up I'm
01:17:26
going death death Con 3 on Jewish people
01:17:30
the funny thing is I actually can't be
01:17:31
anti-semitic because black people are
01:17:33
actually Jew also you guys have toy with
01:17:35
me and tried to blackball anyone whoever
01:17:37
opposes your agenda so when you see this
01:17:39
tweet would you have banned him sax or
01:17:41
is that ban I might have given him a
01:17:43
timeout I think his family wanted him to
01:17:45
get a timeout because he was having an
01:17:47
episode I certainly wouldn't give him a
01:17:49
lifetime ban give him a year or
01:17:50
something look I don't really know this
01:17:53
Jones guy I certainly don't know him in
01:17:54
person I don't even listen to him it's
01:17:55
not a show I'm interested in even now I
01:17:58
only know conspiracy theory I like
01:18:01
knowing the truth I like hearing facts
01:18:04
and I don't believe that factional
01:18:06
information like the lab leak Theory
01:18:09
should be censored by labeling it a
01:18:12
conspiracy theory yeah for example but
01:18:15
what I would say about Alex Jones is
01:18:17
there is some Humanity in allowing him a
01:18:20
forum to apologize for what he did and
01:18:23
acknowledge his mistake and explain why
01:18:26
he thought what he did and why he was
01:18:29
wrong and that's what he did on X and I
01:18:31
went on the Twitter spaces and I asked
01:18:33
him a follow-up question which he
01:18:34
wouldn't answer I said how have you
01:18:36
changed your behavior yeah but honestly
01:18:37
Jing he wouldn't answer it you came
01:18:40
bounding in in the last five minutes
01:18:42
asking him a bunch of questions about
01:18:43
what he did when it had already been
01:18:45
covered at the top of the Pod and I
01:18:47
listened to it and he had not answered
01:18:48
the question how is your behavior
01:18:50
changed and so he doesn't want to talk
01:18:52
to
01:18:53
he spent the first half hour Rel
01:18:54
litigating Sandy Hook and you weren't
01:18:56
aware of that want go over it again 10
01:18:58
minutes but he he won't answer questions
01:19:00
on how he would change his behavior and
01:19:02
so I think that's one of the things I
01:19:03
would want to see from him how have you
01:19:04
changed your behavior and how you you
01:19:07
know do shows and I don't think he's
01:19:09
answered that question anyway we're
01:19:10
going to disagree on this one any final
01:19:12
thoughts jamat as we wrap here on this
01:19:14
on this
01:19:15
issue the Free Speech litmus test is is
01:19:18
very simple it's this exact thing it's
01:19:20
when the person that you like says the
01:19:23
thing that you find very displeasing
01:19:25
what do you do and I am a free speech
01:19:29
absolutist on this I just think it's a
01:19:31
very slippery slope and I don't think
01:19:32
we're
01:19:33
very capable of making these
01:19:35
delineations and so I agree the right
01:19:38
solution are
01:19:39
timeouts but lifetime bands I think
01:19:42
again go down this path where human
01:19:44
judgment gets involved and then it's
01:19:45
about the person in charge and then it
01:19:47
becomes a power play and then it
01:19:48
eventually always gets
01:19:50
corrupted so I can hold two thoughts in
01:19:52
my head one Alex Jones should be able to
01:19:54
say what he thinks and two it was
01:19:56
disgusting and he should be ashamed of
01:19:59
what he
01:20:00
said yeah you know the band's doubling
01:20:03
every time is probably a good precedent
01:20:05
as well so I mean we should do it like
01:20:06
we do at our proger game the fines go up
01:20:08
yeah phone penalty D phone penalty
01:20:10
doubles exponential back
01:20:12
off I mean you're gonna you're gonna put
01:20:14
your phone down and play the goddamn
01:20:16
game if it gets to 800 or 1,600 because
01:20:18
that stings a little bit so there it is
01:20:20
yeah it totally does but maybe that's
01:20:21
the right solution Jason like you have a
01:20:23
finding mechanism somehow and it just
01:20:25
like it increases and so there's a
01:20:26
financial penalty of nothing else as
01:20:28
well as a timeout when you violate these
01:20:30
laws at least that's a scalable way to
01:20:34
yeah solve the problem in a way that's
01:20:36
hard to corrupt and game but if it goes
01:20:39
down to the person to an individual or a
01:20:41
group of people's judgments as we saw
01:20:43
with the previous management of Twitter
01:20:45
I think it's going to be a very
01:20:47
difficult problem I don't think that
01:20:48
those were bad people but I think that
01:20:49
they were LED
01:20:50
astray yeah I mean Nick do you have that
01:20:53
clip from Rogan cuz when I listen to
01:20:54
this clip from Rogan it did have an
01:20:57
impact on what I thought
01:20:59
because it theyve friends for like 20
01:21:02
years yeah it does show the human
01:21:03
complexity and again you're judging him
01:21:06
based on the worst thing he ever did and
01:21:08
Rogan presents a more balanced Viewpoint
01:21:10
about this guy again I have no dog in
01:21:13
this hunt I don't really care about Alex
01:21:15
Jones but I'm just saying that if we're
01:21:18
going to sit in Judgment of people I
01:21:20
think maybe we should have a more
01:21:21
balanced view cuz
01:21:23
I mean it does bias the conversation to
01:21:24
play the clip of the worst thing he ever
01:21:26
did let let's play Rogan for a second I
01:21:28
think it's interesting look at the way
01:21:29
people look at Alex Jones now because
01:21:31
Alex Jones has been on my podcast a few
01:21:33
times the people that have watched those
01:21:35
podcasts think he's hilarious and they
01:21:37
think that he definitely fed up with
01:21:39
that whole Sandy Hook thing um but he's
01:21:43
right more than he's wrong and he's not
01:21:46
an evil guy he's just a guy who's had
01:21:49
some psychotic breaks in his life he's
01:21:51
had some genuine mental health issues
01:21:53
that he's addressed he's had some
01:21:55
serious bouts of alcoholism some serious
01:21:58
bouts of you know substance abuse and
01:22:01
they've contributed to some very poor
01:22:02
thinking but if you know the guy if you
01:22:06
get to know him like I have I've known
01:22:08
him for more than 20 years and if you
01:22:10
know him on podcast you realize like he
01:22:12
is genuinely trying to unearth some
01:22:16
things that are genuinely disturbing for
01:22:19
most people like this is a guy that was
01:22:21
telling me about Epstein's uh
01:22:25
Island decade ago at least yeah I mean
01:22:30
this platforming mentally ill people
01:22:33
during an episode is a whole another can
01:22:35
of worms I mean I told this to Lex
01:22:37
Reedman when he had Kanye on during that
01:22:38
episode I said I think it's a very bad
01:22:40
idea to spend two hours with somebody
01:22:42
who's having an episode and sure enough
01:22:44
what did he do more anti-semitic
01:22:46
Insanity on his podcast and I just told
01:22:48
him Lex like leave the guy alone it's
01:22:50
not worth it let him get help look I
01:22:53
think I think you have a point there but
01:22:55
um you know that that would be an
01:22:56
argument for a temporary suspension not
01:22:57
a ban in my opinion yeah all right sax
01:23:00
in other news something insane has
01:23:03
happened on the Internet it's never
01:23:05
happened before but somebody has
01:23:08
apologize for getting something wrong
01:23:10
this is breaking news we're in year 34
01:23:12
of the internet and somebody says they
01:23:14
is it my wife is it my wife did she she
01:23:17
she's never gotten anything wrong I've
01:23:19
listen I've been there for this whole
01:23:20
relationship she has been 100 out of 100
01:23:23
times correct on frustrating it's so
01:23:26
frustrating I mean if she makes a
01:23:28
mistake we'll know but it hasn't
01:23:29
happened yet actually paradoxically same
01:23:31
with my wife she's been right for 22
01:23:33
years no my wife has been wrong four
01:23:35
times and I've gotten
01:23:37
three on voice memo I tape them I pull
01:23:39
out the phone and I'm like hold on I
01:23:41
need you to say it again yeah so I've
01:23:43
gotten three on voiced but it's because
01:23:45
it's been only three did those three
01:23:46
have something to do with deciding to
01:23:48
marry you or to move in with you and
01:23:51
make children and start a life together
01:23:53
it's so frustrating how can one person
01:23:55
be so wrong I.E me all the time well I
01:23:58
mean at least your self aware everybody
01:24:00
loves self-aware CH Cham it is God a new
01:24:04
trend in the world but yes Nim TB
01:24:07
publicly admitted we're going to pull it
01:24:09
up here sax here we go he publicly
01:24:11
admitted that techno watermelon that's
01:24:14
your name sax that was his insult I
01:24:16
don't really understand the insult I
01:24:17
never understood it either I think he's
01:24:19
saying your head is the size of a
01:24:20
watermelon and that you're involved in
01:24:22
technology that's my was my
01:24:23
interpretation I don't think you have a
01:24:24
melon head or does it mean like I'm
01:24:26
green on the outside and red on the
01:24:28
inside or something like somehow I'm
01:24:29
supporting communism or I don't I don't
01:24:31
really understand it but that has come
01:24:33
up um well listen it's better than mine
01:24:35
I'm a psychotic ignoramus so he you know
01:24:37
he hasn't retracted that for some reason
01:24:39
not yet not yet but I we'll have at some
01:24:41
point I'm sure he will uh but here it is
01:24:43
folks well he just said I can see that
01:24:45
David saaks is correct about the
01:24:47
relative strength of the parties in the
01:24:48
Ukraine war and I was wrong all
01:24:51
caps Russia is not as weak as it seemed
01:24:53
it has staying power this means the
01:24:55
settlement is likely outcome anyway um
01:24:58
it's so rare on the internet for anyone
01:25:00
to admit they were
01:25:03
wrong and what they usually do is do
01:25:07
memory hole it which is why you know I
01:25:09
always like to produce receipts I only
01:25:11
do that for the people who strongly
01:25:12
denounce me about something and then I
01:25:14
end up being right they never con see
01:25:16
it's not just about the fact that I was
01:25:17
right it's about the fact that they
01:25:18
attacked me personally and they never
01:25:21
come back and apologize or or correct
01:25:23
the record and TB did that so kudos to
01:25:26
him I mean I admit when I read this I
01:25:29
was
01:25:30
like you know like a saor yeah I'm like
01:25:33
okay what's the gotcha this can't be
01:25:35
happening wa for it follow twet I
01:25:38
thought a trap door was going to open
01:25:39
under my feet I thought a cartoon piano
01:25:41
was going to fall on my
01:25:42
head I just I thought this can't be it
01:25:45
and but no that was it so well there it
01:25:48
is uh Kudos by the way just I mean the
01:25:52
reason why I understood what was going
01:25:56
to happen in this you know counter
01:26:00
offensive and why the war is not going
01:26:01
to go as well as people thought it's not
01:26:04
because I purport to be some sort of
01:26:05
Ukraine expert or Foreign Affairs expert
01:26:08
I mainly just spent the time to figure
01:26:09
out who the real experts were and the
01:26:12
real experts are never the people who
01:26:13
the media tells you you actually have to
01:26:16
spend the time to look at people's track
01:26:18
records what they said in the past did
01:26:20
it come true or not you know it's it's
01:26:23
basically a falsifiability standard look
01:26:25
at what they predicted look at what
01:26:27
actually happened and you can figure out
01:26:28
who the real experts are and that's what
01:26:31
I did in the case of Ukraine it was
01:26:32
possible to figure out who are the
01:26:34
foreign policy Scholars who got this
01:26:36
right who are the military bloggers who
01:26:38
are accurately reporting information and
01:26:40
who are the ones who are basically
01:26:41
putting out propaganda if you spend the
01:26:43
time to do that on virtually any issue
01:26:45
you can effectively become an expert
01:26:48
it's a great Point SX really good point
01:26:50
yeah well you have to you have to find
01:26:52
your own process for finding the truth
01:26:53
today because I don't think you can
01:26:54
trust the journalists out there to do it
01:26:57
def 100% And and by the way as a VC
01:27:00
people say well what does the VC think
01:27:01
you know in a way like what VCS do is
01:27:04
when you get interested in a topic you
01:27:05
kind of go deep you try to assimilate a
01:27:07
lot of information you try to figure out
01:27:08
who are the real experts in the space so
01:27:10
that those are the people I should
01:27:11
listen to and then you develop a take
01:27:13
it's not the worst skill set in the
01:27:14
world for doing a pod or um tweeting out
01:27:18
hot takes on on Twitter again I'm not
01:27:20
saying I'm an expert I'm just somebody
01:27:22
who is independent-minded enough to get
01:27:24
to the bottom of an issue without dis
01:27:27
relying on what I'm supposed to believe
01:27:29
and I just try to figure out who the
01:27:30
real experts are all right producer Nick
01:27:33
are you there you did a tweet about
01:27:35
questions that people might want to have
01:27:37
to ask the besties here as we wrap up
01:27:38
this episode we'll take two your two
01:27:40
favorite questions producer thoughts on
01:27:41
the Harvard board standing behind
01:27:43
president gay despite her transgressions
01:27:45
okay that's a good question that's
01:27:46
that's a good one for Jamal here's what
01:27:48
I'll say I think that the Harvard board
01:27:51
was probably in a really difficult
01:27:53
position in the following way you know
01:27:56
when you hire somebody and you
01:28:01
realize that that person has some
01:28:04
faults you have three choices right one
01:28:09
is
01:28:10
to fire them two is to be unequivocal in
01:28:15
their support and three is to basically
01:28:19
give a milk toast cya kind of a
01:28:23
statement to give yourself
01:28:26
time the reason why I think that
01:28:29
President gay wasn't fired was probably
01:28:31
because the board for whatever reason
01:28:33
didn't want to seem like they were cow
01:28:35
to to Bill Amman and all the other
01:28:37
people that were asking for her
01:28:40
resignation but what they didn't do is
01:28:42
equally important they may not have
01:28:43
fired her but what they also didn't do
01:28:45
was come out with an unequivocal
01:28:46
statement of support I think it was kind
01:28:48
of a little bit wishy-washy and
01:28:51
acknowledging her
01:28:52
mistakes which seems to be a setup to
01:28:56
allow her to basically make a couple
01:28:58
more mistakes so that then they can fire
01:29:00
her and they can all seem like they did
01:29:02
the right thing so I suspect that that's
01:29:04
what happens she probably won't be in
01:29:06
that job in a year from now or you know
01:29:09
she kind of muddles along and in two or
01:29:11
three years she quote unquote retires to
01:29:12
spend more time with her
01:29:14
family anyone else want to get it on
01:29:16
this sex yeah I mean I think this
01:29:17
University presidents debate has been a
01:29:19
little bit of a roar shock test and I've
01:29:21
seen
01:29:22
people that I generally agree with fall
01:29:24
into one of two camps some see it as a
01:29:27
free speech issue other people see it as
01:29:29
a kind of woke double standards or Dei
01:29:32
issue I think for those who see as a
01:29:34
free speech issue they're emphasizing
01:29:36
the
01:29:37
motivations of people like Elise stonic
01:29:40
the person who asked the university
01:29:41
presidents the question in saying when
01:29:44
she said basically the the question was
01:29:46
does your code of conduct allow calls
01:29:48
for genocide of
01:29:50
juice and their argument is that's a
01:29:53
loaded question because there is not an
01:29:55
epidemic on campus of people calling for
01:29:58
genocide of Jews and so this is
01:30:00
basically all kind of an invented
01:30:02
hysteria and the purpose of it is to
01:30:05
suppress debate about this Israel Hamas
01:30:08
war in Gaza and it's designed to expand
01:30:12
campus speech codes so that it's harder
01:30:15
for Palestinian supporters to protest in
01:30:19
favor of their cause so one way of
01:30:22
looking at it my view on that is if it
01:30:26
ends up being the case that campus
01:30:29
speech codes get expanded in that way
01:30:31
that'd be a bad thing I don't think we
01:30:33
need to restrict speech on campus so I
01:30:36
agree with them on that point however
01:30:38
there is a different way of looking at
01:30:39
this which is the motivations of the
01:30:41
University presidents in answering that
01:30:43
question and yes it was a loaded
01:30:45
question but they flubbed the answer and
01:30:47
the question is why because as we talked
01:30:49
about last week if they were asked about
01:30:52
calls for the murder of any other group
01:30:55
a racial group or trans people something
01:30:58
like that Asian again I don't think
01:31:00
their answer would have been the same
01:31:01
and I do think that that comes back to
01:31:03
the fact that they have a preconceived
01:31:06
notion of which groups deserve
01:31:07
protection and which ones don't and that
01:31:09
is a double standard and I think
01:31:11
anything we can do to get rid of that
01:31:14
poisonous ideology that wants to treat
01:31:17
people differently on campus I think is
01:31:20
a good thing and so I support what bill
01:31:22
akman is doing on that basis but if Bill
01:31:25
akman goes too far and demands
01:31:26
restrictions on the ability of students
01:31:28
to protest then I think it would be a
01:31:30
bad thing and that's going too far so
01:31:32
this would be a great thing to ask him
01:31:34
like what his motivations are that you
01:31:36
know if he comes on the Pod the thing
01:31:38
that's crazy is that just the crazy
01:31:40
hypocrisy like these are the same people
01:31:42
who were firing people or not letting
01:31:45
them speak on campus if they had a you
01:31:47
know a microaggression where they didn't
01:31:51
they missed gendered somebody or they
01:31:53
used a different pronoun or they had a
01:31:54
different feeling about what defines a
01:31:56
woman versus a man or you know gender
01:31:58
differences whatever their massive
01:32:00
intolerance and the crazy hypocrisy
01:32:02
which you're alluding to here Sachs is
01:32:03
the thing that I think has broken
01:32:04
everybody's brain like this is bizarre
01:32:07
and the DI stuff is a road to nowhere I
01:32:08
tweeted today about the absolute uh
01:32:12
grift that was going on in Tech not long
01:32:14
ago uh which was call out a company
01:32:17
Venture firm whatever it is for their
01:32:19
Dei stats then quietly them after you've
01:32:22
done this Brig ading of them and say hey
01:32:25
we can solve your problem hire us as
01:32:27
consultants and speakers to come in and
01:32:29
fix your Dei and tell you what you've
01:32:31
done wrong and then publicly come out
01:32:34
and I saw this happen publicly come out
01:32:37
and then tell the same group hey this
01:32:38
person's now an ally rinse and repeat it
01:32:41
was a crazy grift and it's all coming
01:32:42
out now and there's a yeah that that
01:32:44
bill akman thing j that you retweeted is
01:32:46
crazy that story yeah so we could just
01:32:50
go down this Rabbit Hole forever but I
01:32:51
think you call it a call Tock I call it
01:32:54
a Road to Nowhere or a dead end identity
01:32:56
politics in Dei it's just a dead end
01:32:58
when you start judging people based on
01:33:00
you know any criteria other than their
01:33:02
character and performance in the world
01:33:04
do we know if there was a response
01:33:07
by MIT is this one MIT yeah yeah I don't
01:33:11
I don't think yet there has been so
01:33:12
anyway we we'll cover that story next
01:33:14
week for sure I think what bill is doing
01:33:17
is brave because he is taking on Dei and
01:33:20
that is or historically that's been one
01:33:22
of the most dangerous things you can do
01:33:24
I mean that is what people get canceled
01:33:25
for now I know there there are people
01:33:29
who I am fans of like like Lenn
01:33:32
Greenwald who's been very critical of
01:33:34
Amman because he thinks that amman's
01:33:35
trying to restrict free speech and
01:33:38
prevent again the pro Palestinian cause
01:33:40
from protesting or saying it's peace and
01:33:45
I guess Bill can clarify that but I
01:33:47
think this issue is less about foreign
01:33:49
policy and more about domestic policy
01:33:52
these Dei policies and finally we have
01:33:54
someone who's willing to take it on and
01:33:56
challenge it challenge it at an
01:33:58
ideological level and then challenge it
01:34:00
at like a just Griff level yeah shout
01:34:03
out to Brian Armstrong he got this right
01:34:05
and and he went right up the hill and
01:34:06
took the arrows for it and I think we've
01:34:08
turned a corner I if you the tweet I did
01:34:11
today I would not have done two years
01:34:13
ago because I just didn't want to you
01:34:15
know risk my firm or the companies I
01:34:17
work with you know to kind of expose
01:34:19
that grift because could it could blow
01:34:22
back on people so but now I feel totally
01:34:24
comfortable doing it so Uber's at 70
01:34:27
well that Al say Uber Uber is 76 puts me
01:34:30
in I don't care mode that's for sure
01:34:33
he's got Fu money now amman's got a lot
01:34:35
of Firepower you know that Bond call was
01:34:37
totally right you know the 10 years now
01:34:39
sub 4% I will say yeah I will say that
01:34:42
does your your bank account does give
01:34:44
you the ability to okay final question
01:34:46
please we we must wrap we must have a
01:34:48
final question and please throw it to
01:34:50
Friedberg
01:34:52
first I got freedberg involved early on
01:34:54
offense today it's a great show from mom
01:34:56
cooks fast and slow on X uh for
01:34:58
Friedberg I guess what is the correct
01:35:00
way to hire kids out of school now that
01:35:02
an elite University degree tells you
01:35:04
very little about the applicant and will
01:35:05
you follow this path in your own
01:35:07
companies oh I have a great answer for
01:35:09
that Tim go ahead no please let free you
01:35:14
gotta go to the schools with Co-op why
01:35:16
because it allows you to evaluate these
01:35:18
kids in C2 on a real-time basis without
01:35:21
an obligation to hire you can find the
01:35:23
ones that can really do the work have
01:35:25
the
01:35:26
energy Co programs please it's for
01:35:28
people don't know I went to a co-op
01:35:29
School University of waterl in Canada
01:35:32
the way that it works there not not
01:35:34
everywhere but there at least is you go
01:35:37
to school for the first eight months and
01:35:39
then you never get a break you're either
01:35:41
in working for four months or you're in
01:35:43
school for four months and you go back
01:35:45
and forth until you graduate so instead
01:35:47
of graduating in four years you graduate
01:35:50
in five but you graduate with with
01:35:53
basically two full years of work
01:35:54
experience and depending on the
01:35:57
employers that you work at you typically
01:36:00
get two to three job offers from those
01:36:02
folks if you do a good job when
01:36:05
I was helping to build Facebook we went
01:36:08
there we had never hired an intern
01:36:10
before and we started to hire people and
01:36:12
I think
01:36:13
now it happened in Microsoft it happened
01:36:15
to Google I think it's happened to
01:36:16
Facebook if you look at the number of
01:36:18
kids that work at those schools now from
01:36:21
Co-op Schools they're higher than any
01:36:23
other school there's a bunch of schools
01:36:25
in the United States that have
01:36:27
co-op but I would go and find those
01:36:30
schools and hire those kids freeberg any
01:36:32
thoughts you're now running a company
01:36:35
you're back in the saddle how are you
01:36:37
going to hire
01:36:38
people and tell everybody the name of
01:36:40
the company again uh it's called ohal
01:36:42
ohal not M ohal and uh you're Mahalo was
01:36:47
taken who owns that domain name now I
01:36:49
still have it yeah if somebody wants to
01:36:52
I have Mahalo and I have CA happy to
01:36:56
sell it to somebody if they want it but
01:36:57
tell us how what's your hiring criteria
01:36:59
and how do you think about this now like
01:37:00
to start an Enterprise software business
01:37:02
called
01:37:02
kakua it means to help or to guide in
01:37:06
Hawaiian so probably the third or fourth
01:37:07
most important word yeah go ahead
01:37:10
freeberg please I have criteria around
01:37:12
raw horsepower skills or experience and
01:37:15
then motivation and I have systems for
01:37:18
how we try and assess those and then
01:37:20
matching our principles
01:37:21
it's kind of the fourth bucket of things
01:37:24
horsepower you can test skills is based
01:37:27
on experience and fits the role and the
01:37:28
need but motivation is one that there's
01:37:31
a lot of question marks
01:37:33
around does this person have they
01:37:36
demonstrated that they've had a not just
01:37:40
a desire but an action that they've
01:37:41
taken that has pushed them beyond the
01:37:43
limits of the systems that they've
01:37:45
operated in and that's what I would
01:37:47
typically look for regardless of the the
01:37:49
schooling background the educ a
01:37:51
background is is some demonstration of
01:37:53
that because that's necessary in in
01:37:55
business building so those that's that's
01:37:57
my framework for hirings we call it you
01:37:59
know smarts or horsepower skills
01:38:01
motivation and then principles and we
01:38:03
score each one of those and then try and
01:38:04
come up with hiring you do that with the
01:38:07
CEO candidates I got that email from you
01:38:09
and I was very intrigued so I like that
01:38:11
all right everybody this has been
01:38:13
another amazing episode of the all in
01:38:15
podcast for the king of beep and the
01:38:19
dictator and the Rainman himself I'm
01:38:22
your boy J Cal we'll see you next time
01:38:24
bye love you guys
01:38:26
byebye let your winners
01:38:29
ride Rainman
01:38:33
David and instead we open source it to
01:38:36
the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:38:37
with it love you queen
01:38:42
[Music]
01:38:46
of Besties
01:38:49
are that's my dog your driveway
01:38:52
ta man oh man myit meet me we should all
01:38:58
just get a room and just have one big
01:38:59
huge orgy cuz they're all this useless
01:39:01
it's like this like sexual tension that
01:39:03
they just need to release
01:39:10
somehow we need to get merch
01:39:15
[Music]
01:39:19
our I'm
01:39:21
All
01:39:22
[Music]
01:39:24
In
