00:00:00
great job nabal you rocked it maybe I
00:00:02
should have said this on air but that
00:00:03
was literally the most fun podcast I've
00:00:05
ever recorded oh that's on air cut that
00:00:07
in yeah put it in the show put it in the
00:00:09
show I had my theory on why you were
00:00:11
number one but now I have the
00:00:12
realization what's the actual reason you
00:00:14
know us for a long time yeah what was
00:00:15
your theory what's a reality my theory
00:00:17
was that my problem with going on
00:00:19
podcast is usually the person I'm
00:00:20
talking to is not that interesting
00:00:22
they're just asking the same questions
00:00:24
and they're dialing it in and they're
00:00:25
not that interested it's not like we're
00:00:26
having a peer level actual conversation
00:00:28
so that's why I wanted to do air chat
00:00:29
and Clubhouse and things like that cuz
00:00:31
you can actually have a conversation I
00:00:33
see right and what you guys have very
00:00:35
uniquely is four people you know of whom
00:00:39
at least three are intelligent I'm
00:00:42
kidding how could you say that isn't
00:00:45
here what SX isn't even hearing you say
00:00:48
that that is so cold best right these
00:00:52
three are intelligent and all of you get
00:00:54
along and you can have an ongoing
00:00:56
conversation that's a very high hit rate
00:00:58
normally in a podcast you only get one
00:01:00
interesting person and now you've got
00:01:02
three maybe four right okay so that to
00:01:05
me was why Su and by you're talking to
00:01:08
is number four we don't know she remain
00:01:10
mysterious forever of the four right the
00:01:13
problem is like if you get people
00:01:14
together to talk two is a good
00:01:16
conversation three possibly four is the
00:01:18
max that's why in a dinner table at a
00:01:20
restaurant four top right you don't do
00:01:22
five or six because then exp splits into
00:01:24
multiple conversations so you had four
00:01:26
people who were capable of talking right
00:01:29
that I thought thought was a secret but
00:01:30
there's another secret the the other
00:01:32
secret is you guys are having fun you're
00:01:34
talking over each other you're making
00:01:36
fun of each other you're actually having
00:01:38
fun so that's why I'm saying this is the
00:01:40
most fun podcast I've ever been on and
00:01:42
that's that's why you'll be welcome back
00:01:44
anytime no all welcome back yes
00:01:48
absolutely in three smart
00:01:50
[Music]
00:01:52
guys I can't even believe you'd say that
00:01:54
about sax he's not even here to defend
00:01:57
himself sorry David
00:02:00
let your winners
00:02:01
[Music]
00:02:06
ride we open sources to the fans and
00:02:09
they've just gone crazy with
00:02:11
[Music]
00:02:14
it all right everybody welcome back to
00:02:17
the number one podcast in the world
00:02:20
we're really excited today back again
00:02:24
your sultant of science David
00:02:26
freeberg what do you got going on there
00:02:28
freeberg what's in the background
00:02:31
want I used to play I used to play a lot
00:02:33
of a game called Sim Earth on my
00:02:35
Macintosh LC way back in the day that
00:02:38
tracks yeah that tracks and of course
00:02:42
with us again your chairman what games
00:02:44
did you play growing up J actually I'm
00:02:46
kind of curious did you ever play video
00:02:47
games let's say Andrea Allison uh Susan
00:02:52
I mean it was like a lot of cute girls I
00:02:55
was out dating girls freeberg yeah I was
00:02:59
not on my Apple tun playing civilization
00:03:02
let me find one of those pictures of who
00:03:04
whoa don't get me in trouble Man the 80s
00:03:06
were ' 80s were good to me in Brooklyn
00:03:08
rejection the video
00:03:10
game yes you have three lives rejected
00:03:13
rejected it's a numbers game chamal as
00:03:16
you know as you well know it is a
00:03:18
numberous game yeah Nick go ahead pull
00:03:20
up uh pull up Rico Suave here oh no what
00:03:23
is this one instead of playing video
00:03:24
here I am no the80s that's fat that's
00:03:28
fat J you want get
00:03:30
Nick help out help out your unle yeah
00:03:32
here he is out slaying help out your
00:03:34
uncle with the VIN Jak C you know what
00:03:37
he was sling in there snack yeah you
00:03:40
pric and post asmic right correct and
00:03:43
weightlifting beef
00:03:46
jerky go find my Leonardo decaprio
00:03:48
picture please and replace my fat jow
00:03:51
picture with that thank you oh God I was
00:03:54
fat man plus 40 lbs is a lot heavier
00:03:57
than I it's no joke it's no joke 40b a
00:04:00
lot I there's so many great emo photos
00:04:03
of me I'm proud of you thank you my man
00:04:05
thank you my man if you want a good can
00:04:08
you get through the intros please so we
00:04:09
can start come on quick how you doing
00:04:11
brother how you doing chairman
00:04:14
dictator you
00:04:16
good all right all right we're really
00:04:19
excited today today for the first time
00:04:22
on the Allin podcast the Iron Fist of
00:04:26
Angel list the zenik mage of the early
00:04:29
stage he has such a way with words he's
00:04:32
the socer te of nerds please welcome my
00:04:36
guy Namaste Nal how you doing the intros
00:04:38
are back that is the best intro I've
00:04:41
ever gotten I didn't think I don't I
00:04:42
didn't think you could do that that was
00:04:44
amazing that's your super power right
00:04:46
there lock it in quit Venture Capital
00:04:47
just do that absolutely that's actually
00:04:50
you know what interestingly number one
00:04:51
podcast in the world like someone said I
00:04:54
mean that's what I'm manifesting it's
00:04:56
getting close we've been in the top 10
00:04:58
so I mean the weekends are good for all
00:05:00
in this this one will hit number one
00:05:02
this one will go vir I think it could if
00:05:03
you have some really great piffy
00:05:06
insights we might go right to the top I
00:05:09
just got to do a seile and it'll go
00:05:10
viral oh no oh no are you gonna send us
00:05:14
your heart my heart goes out to you my
00:05:17
heart I I end here at the heart I don't
00:05:20
send it out I keep it right here I put
00:05:23
both hands on the heart and I hold it
00:05:25
nice and stady I hold it in it's sending
00:05:28
out to you but just not explicitly all
00:05:31
right for those of you who don't know
00:05:33
Naval was an entrepreneur uh he kicked a
00:05:35
bit of ass he got his ass kicked and
00:05:37
then he started Venture
00:05:40
hacks and he started emailing folks and
00:05:43
saying you know 20 15 20 years ago maybe
00:05:46
15 here are some deals in Silicon Valley
00:05:49
he went around he started writing 50k
00:05:50
100K checks he hit a bunch of home runs
00:05:53
and he turned Venture hacks into Angel
00:05:56
list and then he has invested in a ton
00:05:59
of great startups uh maybe give us some
00:06:01
of the greatest hits there
00:06:02
Dev yeah Twitter Uber notion bunch of
00:06:06
others um Postmates you to me lot of
00:06:09
unicorns buch up coming I it's actually
00:06:12
a lot of deals at this point but
00:06:14
honestly I'm not necessarily proud of
00:06:16
being an investor investor to me is a
00:06:17
side job it's a hobby so I do startups
00:06:21
how how do you define
00:06:23
yourself I don't I mean I guess these
00:06:26
days I would say more like building
00:06:27
things you know every
00:06:29
every so-called career is an evolution
00:06:31
right and all of you guys are
00:06:33
independent and you kind of do what
00:06:34
you're most interested in right that's
00:06:36
the point of making money so you can
00:06:38
just do what you want so these days I'm
00:06:40
really into building and crafting
00:06:42
products so I built one recently called
00:06:44
airchat it kind of didn't work I'm still
00:06:47
proud of what I built and got to work
00:06:49
with an incredible team and now I'm
00:06:51
building a new product and this time I'm
00:06:52
going into Hardware oh and I'm just
00:06:54
building something that I really want I
00:06:57
I'm not it all yourself Nal
00:07:00
partially I bring investors along last
00:07:02
time they got their money back previous
00:07:04
times they've made money next time
00:07:05
hopefully they'll make a lot of money
00:07:07
it's good to bring your friends along
00:07:09
I'll be honest I love that you said I
00:07:11
love the product but it didn't work not
00:07:13
enough people say that yeah I know I I
00:07:15
built a product that I loved that I was
00:07:17
proud of but it didn't catch fire and it
00:07:19
was a social product so it had to catch
00:07:21
fire for it to work so I found the team
00:07:23
great homes they all got paid the
00:07:24
investors that I brought in got their
00:07:25
money back and I learned a ton which I'm
00:07:29
leveraging into the new thing but the
00:07:31
new thing is much harder the new thing
00:07:32
is hardware and software and what did
00:07:34
you what did you learn building in 2024
00:07:37
and 20125 that you didn't know maybe
00:07:39
before then the main thing was actually
00:07:42
just the craft the craft of pixel by
00:07:44
pixel designing a software product and
00:07:46
launching it I guess the main thing I
00:07:50
took away that was a learning was that I
00:07:53
really enjoyed building products and
00:07:55
that I wanted to build something even
00:07:57
harder and something even more real and
00:08:00
I think like a lot of us I'm inspired by
00:08:02
Elon and you know all the incredible
00:08:04
work he's done so I don't want to build
00:08:05
things that are easy I want to build
00:08:07
things that are hard and interesting and
00:08:09
I want to take on more technical risk
00:08:11
and less Market risk this is the classic
00:08:13
VC learning right which is you want to
00:08:15
build something that if people get it if
00:08:18
you can deliver it you know people will
00:08:20
want it and it's just hard to build as
00:08:22
opposed to you build it and you don't
00:08:24
know if they want it so that's a
00:08:26
learning air chat was a lot of fun for
00:08:28
those of you who don't know it was kind
00:08:29
of like a social media Network where you
00:08:32
could ask a question and then people
00:08:34
could respond and it was like an
00:08:36
audio-based Twitter would you say that
00:08:38
was the the best way to describe it
00:08:40
audio Twitter asynchronous AI
00:08:43
transcripts and all kinds of AI to make
00:08:45
it easier for you
00:08:47
translation really good way for kind of
00:08:50
try to make podcasting type
00:08:52
conversations more accessible to
00:08:53
everybody cuz honestly one of the
00:08:55
reasons I don't go on podcast I don't
00:08:56
like being intermediated so to speak
00:08:59
right where you sit there and someone
00:09:00
interviews you and then you go back and
00:09:01
forth and you go through the same old
00:09:02
things I just want to talk to people I
00:09:04
want peer relationships kind of like you
00:09:06
guys have running here nval what
00:09:08
happened when you went through that
00:09:09
phase there was a period where it just
00:09:12
seemed like something had gone on in
00:09:14
your life and you just knew the answers
00:09:16
you were just so grounded it's not to
00:09:19
say that you're not grounded now but
00:09:20
you're you're less active posting and
00:09:22
writing but there was this period where
00:09:24
I think all of us were like right what
00:09:26
does nval think oh really oh okay that's
00:09:29
USS to be I would say it would be like
00:09:31
the late teens the early 20s Jason you
00:09:34
can correct me if I'm getting the dates
00:09:35
wrong but it's been that moment where
00:09:36
like these Naval isms and this sort of
00:09:38
philosophy really started to I think
00:09:40
people had a tremendous respect for how
00:09:43
you were thinking about things I I'm
00:09:44
just curious like what were you going
00:09:46
through something in that moment or like
00:09:48
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right no
00:09:50
very insightful yeah 20 so i' I've been
00:09:52
on Twitter since 2007 cuz I was an early
00:09:55
investor but I never really tweeted I
00:09:57
didn't get featured I had no audience I
00:09:58
was just doing the usual techie guy
00:10:00
thing talking to each other and then I
00:10:03
started Angelus in 2010 the original
00:10:05
thing about matching investors to
00:10:07
startups didn't scale it was just an
00:10:09
email list that exploded at early on but
00:10:11
then just didn't scale so we didn't have
00:10:13
a
00:10:14
business and I was trying to figure out
00:10:16
the business and at the same time I got
00:10:18
a letter from the Securities and
00:10:19
Exchange Commission saying oh you're
00:10:21
acting as an unlic broker dealer and I'm
00:10:22
like what I'm not making any money I'm
00:10:24
not I'm just making intros I'm not
00:10:25
taking anything it's just a public
00:10:26
service but even then they were coming
00:10:28
after me so I wasn't and I'd raised a
00:10:31
bunch of money from investors so I was
00:10:32
in a very high stress period of my life
00:10:34
now looking back it's almost comical
00:10:36
that I was stressed over but at the time
00:10:38
it all felt very real the weight of
00:10:40
everything was on my shoulders
00:10:41
expectations people money regulators and
00:10:45
I eventually went to DC and got the law
00:10:47
change to legalize what we do which
00:10:49
ironically enabled a whole bunch of
00:10:50
other things like icos and incubator
00:10:52
days and so on demo days but in that
00:10:55
process I was in a very high stress
00:10:57
period of my life and I just started
00:10:58
tweeting whatever I was going through
00:11:00
whatever realizations I was happening
00:11:02
it's only in stress that you sort of are
00:11:04
forced to grow and so whatever internal
00:11:06
growth I was going through I just
00:11:07
started tweeting it not thinking much of
00:11:10
it and it was a mix of there are three
00:11:12
things that I kind of always kind of are
00:11:14
running through one is I love science
00:11:17
you know I'm an amateur love physics
00:11:20
let's just leave it at that I love
00:11:22
reading a lot of philosophy and thinking
00:11:25
deeply about it and I like making money
00:11:28
right truth Love and Money that's my
00:11:29
joke on my Twitter bio those are the
00:11:32
three things that I keep coming back to
00:11:34
and so I just started tweeting about all
00:11:35
of them and I
00:11:37
think before that the expectation was
00:11:40
that someone like me should just be
00:11:41
talking about money stay in your lane
00:11:43
and people had been playing it very safe
00:11:46
and so I think the combination of the
00:11:47
three sort of caught people's attentions
00:11:49
because every person thinks about
00:11:52
everything we don't just stay in our
00:11:53
Lane in real life we're dealing with our
00:11:55
relationships we're dealing with our
00:11:57
relationship with the universe we're
00:11:59
dealing with what we know to be true and
00:12:01
you know with science and how we make
00:12:03
decisions and how we figure things out
00:12:05
and we're also dealing with a practical
00:12:06
everyday material things of how to deal
00:12:09
with our spouses or girlfriends or wives
00:12:11
or husbands and how to make money and
00:12:13
how to deal with our children so I'm
00:12:15
just tweeting about everything I just
00:12:17
got interested in everything I'm
00:12:18
tweeting about it and a lot of it my
00:12:20
best stuff was just notes to self it's
00:12:21
like hey don't forget this how to get
00:12:23
rich remember that one how to get rich
00:12:25
that like one theads and super Yeah Bang
00:12:30
Yeah Yeah Yeah I think that is still the
00:12:33
most viral threat ever on Twitter I like
00:12:35
Timeless things I I like philosophy I
00:12:37
like things that are still apply in the
00:12:39
future I like compound interests if you
00:12:42
will in
00:12:43
ideas obviously recently X has become so
00:12:46
addictive that we're all checking it
00:12:48
every day and elon's built the perfect
00:12:51
for you he's built Tik Tok for nerds and
00:12:53
we're all on it but normally I try to
00:12:55
ignore the news obviously last year
00:12:57
things got real we all had to pay of
00:12:59
attention to the news but I just like to
00:13:02
tweet Timeless things I I don't know I
00:13:03
mean people pay attention sometimes they
00:13:05
like what I write sometimes they they go
00:13:07
non ler on me but yeah the how to get
00:13:09
rich sweet storm was a big one is it
00:13:11
problematic when people now meet you
00:13:12
because the the hype versus the reality
00:13:16
there's like it's discordant now because
00:13:18
people if they absorb this content they
00:13:19
expect to see
00:13:21
Somey da yeah floating in the in the air
00:13:24
you know what I mean yes yeah like many
00:13:26
of you have stopped drinking but I used
00:13:28
to like have the occasional glass of
00:13:30
wine and there was a moment there where
00:13:31
I went and met with an information
00:13:34
reporter back when I used to meet with
00:13:35
reporters and she said where are we
00:13:38
going to meet so I said oh let's meet at
00:13:39
the the wine merchant and we'll get a
00:13:41
glass she's like what you drink like it
00:13:43
was like a big deal for I'm so
00:13:46
disappointed I was like I'm an
00:13:48
entrepreneur most of them are alcoholics
00:13:50
or and psychedelics or yeah for sure
00:13:53
takes to
00:13:54
man hot tub yeah right yeah when they
00:13:57
say I'm on therapy you know what that
00:13:59
that's code for um so yes it is highly
00:14:03
Discord medine yeah I'm I'm almost
00:14:05
reminded of that line in The Matrix
00:14:07
where that agent is about to like shoot
00:14:09
one of the Matrix characters and says
00:14:11
only human right so that's kind I want
00:14:13
to say to everybody like only human yeah
00:14:16
yeah yeah you did a recently a podcast
00:14:18
with Tim Ferris on parenting this was
00:14:22
out there I love this and I bought the
00:14:24
book from this guy yeah just give a a
00:14:27
brief overview of this philosophy of
00:14:30
parenting oh I didn't listen to this I
00:14:31
have to write this down tell us this
00:14:33
you're going to love this I this spoke
00:14:35
to me but it was a little crazy yeah so
00:14:37
I'm a big fan of David Deutsch David
00:14:39
deuts I think is basically the smartest
00:14:41
living human he's a scientist who yeah
00:14:44
Quantum computation and he's written a
00:14:46
couple of great books but it's about the
00:14:48
intersection of the greatest theories
00:14:50
that we have today the theories with the
00:14:51
most reach and those are epistemology
00:14:54
the theory of knowledge Evolution
00:14:56
quantum physics and computation this is
00:14:59
the beginning of infinity guy that's
00:15:00
theity is always reference correct yes
00:15:04
the fabric of reality is another book
00:15:05
I've spent a fair bit of time with him
00:15:07
done some podcasts with him hired and
00:15:09
worked with people around him and I'm
00:15:11
just really impressed because it's like
00:15:12
the the framework that's made me smarter
00:15:14
I feel like because we're all fighting
00:15:16
aging our brains are getting slower and
00:15:18
we're always trying to have better ideas
00:15:20
so as you age you should have wisdom
00:15:21
that's your substitute for the raw
00:15:23
horsepower of intelligence going down
00:15:25
and so scientific wisdom I take from
00:15:27
David not take but you know I learned
00:15:29
from David and one of the things that he
00:15:32
pioneered is called taking children
00:15:34
seriously and it's this idea that you
00:15:35
should take your children seriously like
00:15:37
adults you should always give them the
00:15:39
same Freedom that you would give an
00:15:40
adult if you wouldn't speak that way
00:15:42
with your spouse if you wouldn't force
00:15:44
your spouse to do something don't force
00:15:46
a child to do something and it's only
00:15:48
through the latent threat of physical
00:15:51
violence hey I can control you I can
00:15:53
make you go to your room I can take your
00:15:55
dinner away or whatever that you
00:15:57
intimidate children and it resonated
00:16:00
with me because I grew up very very free
00:16:03
my father wasn't around when I was young
00:16:05
my mother didn't have the bandwidth to
00:16:07
watch us all the time she had other
00:16:09
things to do and so I kind of was making
00:16:11
my own decisions from a extremely young
00:16:13
age from the age of five nobody was
00:16:15
telling me what to do and from the age
00:16:16
of nine I was telling everybody what to
00:16:18
do so I'm used to that and I've been
00:16:20
homeschooling my own kids so the
00:16:22
philosophy resonated and I found this
00:16:25
guy Aaron stuple on air chat and he was
00:16:28
an incredible Expositor of the
00:16:29
philosophy he lives his life with it 99%
00:16:32
as Extreme as one can go so his kids can
00:16:35
eat all the ice cream they want and all
00:16:36
the Snickers bars they want they can
00:16:38
play on the iPad all they want they
00:16:39
don't have to go to school if they don't
00:16:40
feel like it they dress how they want
00:16:42
they don't have to do anything they
00:16:43
don't want to do everything is a
00:16:44
discussion negotiation explanation just
00:16:47
like you would with a roommate or an
00:16:48
adult living in your house and it's kind
00:16:51
of insane and extreme but I live my own
00:16:54
home life in that Arc in that direction
00:16:59
and I'm a very free person I don't have
00:17:00
an office to go to I try really not to
00:17:02
maintain a calendar if I can't remember
00:17:04
it I don't want to do it I don't send my
00:17:07
kids to school I really try not to coers
00:17:08
them and so obviously that's an extreme
00:17:11
model but I was sorry sorry sorry hold
00:17:14
on a second so yeah your kids if they if
00:17:18
they were like I want hog and and it's
00:17:21
900 p.m. you're like okay two nights ago
00:17:25
I did this I ordered the hog andas it
00:17:27
wasn't hog andas it was a different
00:17:28
brand I ordered it
00:17:29
I'm just going to go through a couple of
00:17:30
examples in we do ice cream at 9:00 p.m.
00:17:32
and we all ate so they're like Dad I
00:17:34
want and they're happy they're happy
00:17:36
kids I want to be on my iPad I'm playing
00:17:38
fortnite leave me alone I'll go to sleep
00:17:40
when I want you're like okay my oldest
00:17:42
probably plays iPad nine hours a day
00:17:45
okay so then your other kid pees in
00:17:48
their pants because they're too lazy to
00:17:49
walk to the bathroom they don't do that
00:17:51
because they don't like peeing their
00:17:52
pants no I understand but I'm just
00:17:53
saying like there's a spectrum of all of
00:17:55
these things right yeah and your point
00:17:57
of view is 100% of it is allowed and you
00:18:00
have no judgments no no that's not where
00:18:02
I am that's where that's where Aaron is
00:18:04
my rules are a little different my rules
00:18:06
are they got to do one hour of math or
00:18:09
programming plus two hours of reading
00:18:12
every single day and the moment they've
00:18:14
done that they're free creatures and
00:18:17
everything else is a negotiation we have
00:18:19
to persuade them it's a persuasion I
00:18:20
should say not even a negotiation and
00:18:22
even the hour of math and 2 hours of
00:18:24
reading really you get 15 to 30 minutes
00:18:26
of math maybe an hour if you're lucky
00:18:28
and you get half an hour to two hours of
00:18:29
reading if and what do you think the
00:18:31
long-term consequences of that are and
00:18:34
then also what is the long-term
00:18:35
consequences let's say on health if
00:18:38
they're making decisions you know are
00:18:40
just not good like the ice cream thing
00:18:42
at 9:00 p.m. how do you how do you
00:18:43
manage that in your mind I think
00:18:47
whatever age you're at whatever part
00:18:48
you're at in life you're still always
00:18:50
struggling with your own habits I think
00:18:52
all of us for example still eat food and
00:18:54
feel guilty or want to eat something
00:18:55
that we shouldn't be eating and we're
00:18:57
still always evolving our diets and kids
00:18:58
are the same so my oldest is already he
00:19:01
passed on the ice cream last time and he
00:19:03
said I want to eat healthier because
00:19:04
finally I managed to get through to him
00:19:05
and persuade him that he should be
00:19:07
healthier my younger kids will eat it
00:19:09
but they'll eat a limited amount my
00:19:11
middle kid will sometimes eat some so if
00:19:14
they say something you'll enable it but
00:19:15
then you'll guide you'll be like Hey
00:19:17
listen like this is not the choice I
00:19:19
would make I don't think but if you want
00:19:20
it I do it yeah I'll try it but you also
00:19:23
have to be careful where you don't want
00:19:24
to intimidate them and you don't want to
00:19:25
be so overbearing that then they just
00:19:28
view dad is like controll it I find this
00:19:30
so fasc and so what do you think happens
00:19:32
to these kids at the like I'm sure you
00:19:34
have a vision of what they'll be like
00:19:36
when they're fully formed adults like
00:19:37
what is that Vision I I try not to
00:19:40
they're going to be who they're going to
00:19:41
be I this is kind of how I grew up I
00:19:43
kind of did what I
00:19:44
wanted I I would ra I would rather they
00:19:48
have
00:19:49
agency than turn out exactly the way I
00:19:52
want cuz agency is the hardest thing
00:19:54
right having control over your own life
00:19:56
making your own decisions them to be
00:19:59
happy I have a very happy household what
00:20:01
is the Plato what's Plato's goal udonia
00:20:04
right like udonia yeah the happy arist
00:20:07
like the the Fulfillment this Con is
00:20:08
that what you want for
00:20:10
them I don't really want anything for
00:20:13
them I just want them to be free and
00:20:17
their best selves God I
00:20:19
want shamat is worrying about details
00:20:22
he's got like 17 kids now I don't know
00:20:24
if you know but shamat has got like a
00:20:26
whole punch list of things but I love
00:20:27
this interview because the guy made a
00:20:30
really interesting point which was
00:20:32
they're going to have to make these
00:20:33
decisions at some point they're going to
00:20:35
have to learn the pros and cons the the
00:20:39
the upside the downside to all these
00:20:40
things eating iPad and the quicker you
00:20:43
get them to have agency to make these
00:20:45
decisions for themselves with knowledge
00:20:47
to ask questions the more secure they'll
00:20:50
be I found it a fascinating discussion I
00:20:52
like cause and effect especially in
00:20:54
teenagers now that I have a teenager
00:20:56
it's really good for them to learn hey
00:20:59
you know if you don't do your homework
00:21:00
you you have a problem and then you got
00:21:03
to solve that problem how are we going
00:21:04
to solve that problem so I like to
00:21:05
present it as what's your plan anytime
00:21:07
they have a problem 8-year-old kids
00:21:10
15year old kids I just say what's your
00:21:11
plan to solve this and then I like to
00:21:13
hear their plan and let me know if you
00:21:15
want to brainstorm it but I thought it
00:21:16
was a very interesting super interesting
00:21:19
discussion I I would say overall my kids
00:21:21
are very happy the household is very
00:21:23
happy everybody gets along everybody
00:21:26
loves each other yeah
00:21:29
some of them are way ahead of their
00:21:30
peers nobody's behind in anything that
00:21:33
matters nobody seems unhealthy in any
00:21:36
obvious way no one has aberant eating
00:21:38
habits I haven't even found an really an
00:21:40
aberrate Behavior that's out of line so
00:21:43
it's all good self correct me it's like
00:21:45
a i wor I worry a lot about this like
00:21:47
iPad situation I see my kids on an iPad
00:21:50
and it's almost like unless they're
00:21:53
doing an
00:21:54
interactive project if they end up
00:21:56
watching says says the guy who has a
00:21:58
video game theme in the background that
00:22:00
was interactive who probably and who
00:22:02
probably grew up playing video games
00:22:04
nonstop and probably spends 9 hours a
00:22:06
day on his screen just called a phone so
00:22:08
yeah yeah it's the same thing man well I
00:22:11
mean I feel like watch is it but do they
00:22:13
watch
00:22:13
shows no there a h there there's a
00:22:16
hypocrisy to picking up your phone and
00:22:17
then saying to your kid no you can't use
00:22:19
your iPad I grew up playing video games
00:22:21
non-stop in video games when I was older
00:22:23
and I was an avid gamer until just a few
00:22:25
years ago well I'm not I'm not critic
00:22:28
izing the the iPad I was obviously on a
00:22:30
computer since I was four years old so I
00:22:32
totally get it and I think the question
00:22:34
for me is like but I didn't have the
00:22:36
ability to play a 30 minute show and
00:22:40
then play the next 30 minute show and
00:22:41
the next 30 minute show and then sit
00:22:43
there for two hours and just have a show
00:22:45
playing the whole time I was you know
00:22:48
interacting on the computer and doing
00:22:49
stuff and building stuff which was a
00:22:51
little different me from a use case
00:22:53
perspective yeah we we we did use to
00:22:55
control their YouTube access although
00:22:57
now we don't do that
00:22:59
the only thing I ask them is that they
00:23:01
put on captions when they're watching
00:23:03
YouTube so it helps their reading they
00:23:05
learn to read fast good tip yeah I like
00:23:07
that one I will say that one of my kids
00:23:09
is really into YouTube the other two are
00:23:11
not like they just got over it and to
00:23:13
the extent that they use YouTube it's
00:23:14
mostly because they're looking up videos
00:23:16
on their favorite games they want to
00:23:18
know how to be better at a game all
00:23:20
right let's keep moving through this
00:23:21
docket we have David Sachs with us here
00:23:24
so uh David give us your philosophy of
00:23:26
parenting okay next item on the docket
00:23:27
let's go
00:23:30
talk about some real
00:23:32
issues show is not a parenting show a
00:23:35
parenting show I asked D what's your
00:23:38
parenting philosophy he said oh I set up
00:23:40
their trust four years ago so he's done
00:23:42
he's good trust is set up everything's
00:23:45
good g r a t
00:23:49
check you're all set guys let me know
00:23:52
how it works out all right speaking of
00:23:55
working out we've got a vice president
00:23:58
who isn't cuckoo for Coco Puffs and who
00:24:01
actually understands what AI is JD Vance
00:24:04
gave a great speech I watched it myself
00:24:06
he talked about AI in Paris this was on
00:24:09
Tuesday at the AI action Summit whatever
00:24:12
that is and he gave a 15minute banger of
00:24:15
a speech he talked about over regulating
00:24:17
Ai and America's intention to dominate
00:24:20
this and we happen to have with US Naval
00:24:23
the Zar the Zar of AI so before I go
00:24:26
into all the details about the speech I
00:24:28
don't steal your thunder sax this this
00:24:31
uh Speech had a lot of uh verbage a lot
00:24:34
of ideas that I've heard before that
00:24:36
maybe we've all talked about maybe tell
00:24:38
us a little bit about how this all came
00:24:40
together and how proud you are I mean
00:24:43
gosh having a vice president who
00:24:45
understands AI is just it's mind-blowing
00:24:48
he could speak on a
00:24:50
topic that's topical credibly this was
00:24:53
an awesome moment for America I think
00:24:55
what are you implying there JC I'm
00:24:57
implying you have workshopped it with
00:24:59
him no or that he's smart both of those
00:25:02
things the vice president wrote the
00:25:04
speech or at least directed all of it so
00:25:06
the ideas came from him I'm not going to
00:25:08
take any credit whatsoever for this okay
00:25:10
well it was on point maybe you could
00:25:12
talk about I agree it was on point I
00:25:13
think it was a very well crafted and
00:25:15
well- delivered speech he made four main
00:25:17
points about the Trump administration's
00:25:20
approach to AI he's going to ensure this
00:25:22
is point one that American AI continues
00:25:24
to be the gold standard fantastic check
00:25:27
two he says that the administration
00:25:30
understands that excessive regulation
00:25:31
could kill AI just as it's taking off
00:25:34
and he did this in front of all the EU
00:25:35
Elites who love regulation did it on
00:25:38
their home court and then he said number
00:25:40
three AI must remain free from
00:25:42
ideological bias as we've talked about
00:25:44
here on this program and then number
00:25:47
four the White House he said will quote
00:25:50
maintain a pro-worker growth path for AI
00:25:53
so that it can be a potent tool for job
00:25:55
creation in the US so what are your
00:25:58
thoughts on the four major bullet points
00:26:00
and and his speech here in uh Paris well
00:26:03
I think that the vice president you knew
00:26:06
he was going to deliver an important
00:26:08
speech as soon as he got up there and
00:26:09
said that I'm here to talk about not AI
00:26:13
safety but AI opportunity and to
00:26:17
understand what a bracing statement that
00:26:19
was and really almost like a shot across
00:26:21
the bow you have to understand the
00:26:23
history and context of these events for
00:26:26
the last couple of years the last couple
00:26:27
of these events have been exclusively
00:26:29
focused on AI safety the last inperson
00:26:31
event was in the UK at Bletchley Park
00:26:34
and the whole conference was devoted to
00:26:36
AI safety similarly the European AI
00:26:40
regulation obviously is completely
00:26:42
preoccupied with safety and trying to
00:26:43
regulate Away safety risks before they
00:26:46
happen similarly you had the Biden EO
00:26:48
which was based around safety and then
00:26:50
you have just the whole media coverage
00:26:52
around AI which is preoccupied with all
00:26:55
the risks from AI so to have the vice
00:26:58
president get up there and say right off
00:27:00
the bat that there are other things to
00:27:02
talk about in respect to AI besides
00:27:06
safety risk that actually there are huge
00:27:08
opportunities there was a breath of
00:27:11
fresh air and like I said kind of a shot
00:27:13
across the bow and yeah you could almost
00:27:15
see some of the eurocrats they needed
00:27:19
their fainting couches after that
00:27:20
eurocrats
00:27:21
trudo looks like his dog just died so I
00:27:24
think that was just a really important
00:27:26
statement right off the bat to the
00:27:28
context for the speech which is AI is a
00:27:31
huge opportunity for all of us because
00:27:34
really that point just has not been made
00:27:35
enough and it's true there are risks but
00:27:38
when you look at the media coverage and
00:27:39
when you look at the dialogue that The
00:27:42
Regulators have had around this they
00:27:43
never talk about the opportunities it's
00:27:45
always just around the wrist so I think
00:27:47
that was a very important corrective and
00:27:49
then like you said he went on to say
00:27:52
that the United States has to win this
00:27:54
AI race we want to be the gold standard
00:27:56
we want to dominate that was my favorite
00:27:58
part yeah and and by the way that
00:27:59
language about dominating Ai and and
00:28:01
winning the global race that is in
00:28:03
president Trump's executive order from
00:28:05
week one so this is very much
00:28:07
elaborating on the official policy of of
00:28:09
this Administration and the vice
00:28:12
president that went on to say that he
00:28:13
specified how we would do that right we
00:28:15
have to win some of these key building
00:28:17
block Technologies we want to win in
00:28:18
chips we want to win in AI models we
00:28:20
want to win in applications he said we
00:28:23
need to build we need to unlock energy
00:28:25
for these companies and then most of all
00:28:27
we just need to be supportive towards
00:28:28
them as opposed to regulating them to
00:28:30
death and he had a lot to say about the
00:28:33
the risk of overregulation
00:28:35
how often it's big companies that want
00:28:38
regulation he warned about regulatory
00:28:40
capture which our friend Bill Gurley
00:28:42
would like and he said that so basically
00:28:45
having less regulation can actually be
00:28:47
more fair can create a More Level
00:28:48
Playing Field for small companies as
00:28:51
well as big companies and then he he
00:28:53
said to the Europeans that we want you
00:28:55
to be partners with us we want to lead
00:28:57
the world we want you to be our our
00:28:59
partners and benefit from this
00:29:01
technology that we're going to take the
00:29:03
lead in creating but you also have to be
00:29:06
a good partner to us and then he
00:29:08
specifically called out the
00:29:09
overregulation that Europeans have been
00:29:11
engaged in he mentioned the Digital
00:29:13
Services act which has acted as like a
00:29:16
speed trap for American companies it's
00:29:18
American companies who've been
00:29:23
overregulation because the truth of the
00:29:25
matter is that it's American technology
00:29:27
companies that are winning the race and
00:29:29
so when Europe passes these owner
00:29:31
regulations they fall most of all on
00:29:34
American companies and he's basically
00:29:36
saying we need you to rebalance and and
00:29:39
correct this because it's not fair and
00:29:40
it's not smart policy and it's not going
00:29:43
to help us collectively win this AI race
00:29:45
and that kind of brings me just to to
00:29:47
the last point is I don't think he
00:29:48
mentioned China by name but clearly he
00:29:51
talked about adversarial countries who
00:29:54
are using AI to control their
00:29:56
populations to engage in censorship and
00:29:58
thought control and he basically painted
00:30:00
a picture where it's like yeah you could
00:30:02
go work with them or you could work with
00:30:04
us and we we have hundreds of years of
00:30:06
shared history together we believe in
00:30:08
things like free speech hopefully and we
00:30:11
want you to work with us but if you are
00:30:13
going to work with us then you have to
00:30:15
cooperate and we have to create a
00:30:17
reasonable regulatory regime Nal did you
00:30:20
see the uh Speech and your thoughts just
00:30:22
generally on JD Vance and and having
00:30:25
somebody like this you know representing
00:30:27
us and wanting to win American exception
00:30:30
very surprising very impressive I
00:30:32
thought he was polite
00:30:34
optimistic and just very forward-looking
00:30:36
just it's what you would expect an
00:30:38
entrepreneur or a smart investor to say
00:30:41
so I was very impressed I think the idea
00:30:43
that America should win great I think
00:30:45
that we should not regulate I also agree
00:30:48
with I'm not an AI Doomer I don't think
00:30:49
AI is going to end the world that's a
00:30:51
separate conversation but there's this
00:30:53
religion that comes along in many faces
00:30:55
which is that oh climate change is going
00:30:57
to end the world a going to end the
00:30:58
world asteroids going to end the world
00:31:00
covid-19 is going to end the world and
00:31:02
it just has a way of fixating your
00:31:03
attention right it captures everybody's
00:31:05
attention at once so it's a very
00:31:06
seductive thing and I think in the case
00:31:08
of AI it's really been overplayed by
00:31:11
incentive bias you know motivated
00:31:13
reasoning by the companies were ahead
00:31:15
and they want to pull up the ladder
00:31:16
behind them I I think they genuinely
00:31:18
believe it I think they genuinely
00:31:19
believe that there's safety risk but I
00:31:20
think they're motivated to believe in
00:31:22
those safety risks and then they pass
00:31:23
that along but it's kind of a weird
00:31:25
position because they have to say oh
00:31:27
it's so dangerous that you shouldn't
00:31:29
just let open source go at it and you
00:31:31
should let just a few of us work with
00:31:33
you on it but it's not so dangerous that
00:31:36
a private company can't own the whole
00:31:37
thing right because if it was truly the
00:31:39
Manhattan Project if they were building
00:31:40
nuclear weapons you wouldn't want one
00:31:42
company to own that no Sam wman famously
00:31:45
said that AI will capture the light cone
00:31:47
of all future value in other words like
00:31:49
all value ever created at the speed of
00:31:51
light from here will be captured by AI
00:31:54
so if that's true then I think open-
00:31:55
Source AI really matters and little Tech
00:31:58
AI really matters the problem is that
00:32:00
the nature of training these models is
00:32:02
highly centralized they benefit from
00:32:04
supercomputer clustered compute so it's
00:32:07
not clear how any decentralized model
00:32:09
can compete so to me the real issue
00:32:11
boils down to is how do you push AI
00:32:14
forward while not having just a very
00:32:16
small number of players control the
00:32:18
entire thing and we thought we had that
00:32:20
solution with the original open AI which
00:32:22
was a nonprofit was supposed to do for
00:32:23
Humanity but now because of they want to
00:32:26
incentivize the team and they want to
00:32:27
raise money they have to privatize at
00:32:29
least a part of it although it's not
00:32:30
clear to me why they need to privatize
00:32:32
the whole thing like why they need to
00:32:33
buy out the nonprofit portion you could
00:32:35
leave a nonprofit portion and you could
00:32:36
have the private portion for the
00:32:38
incentives but I think that the the real
00:32:41
challenge is how do you keep AI from
00:32:44
naturally centralizing because all the
00:32:46
economics and the technology underneath
00:32:49
are centralizing in nature if you really
00:32:51
think you're going to create God do you
00:32:53
want to put God on a leash with one
00:32:55
entity controlling God that to me is the
00:32:57
real fear not I'm not scared of AI I'm
00:33:00
scared of what a very small number of
00:33:02
people who control AI do to the rest of
00:33:04
us for our own good because that's how
00:33:06
it always works it's well said probably
00:33:07
should go with the Greek model having
00:33:09
many gods and uh Heroes as well freeberg
00:33:12
you heard the uh JD van speech I assume
00:33:15
what are your thoughts on overregulation
00:33:17
and uh maybe to nal's point one person
00:33:21
owning this versus open source I think
00:33:24
that there's this kind of big definition
00:33:27
of social balance right now on what I
00:33:29
would call techno optimism and techno
00:33:32
pessimism generally people sort of fall
00:33:35
into one of those two camps generally
00:33:37
speaking techno
00:33:39
optimists I would say are folks that
00:33:41
believe that accelerating outcomes with
00:33:43
AI with automation with bioengineering
00:33:46
manufacturing semiconductors Quantum
00:33:48
Computing nuclear energy Etc will usher
00:33:51
in this era of abundance by making by
00:33:54
creating leverage which is what
00:33:55
technology gives us
00:33:58
technology will make things cheaper and
00:34:00
it will be deflationary and it will give
00:34:02
everyone more so it creates abundance
00:34:05
the challenge is that people who already
00:34:07
have a lot worry more about the exposure
00:34:09
to the downside than they desire the
00:34:12
upside and so you know the techn
00:34:15
pessimists are generally like the EU and
00:34:18
large Parts frankly of the United States
00:34:21
are worried about the loss of X the loss
00:34:24
of jobs the loss of this the loss of
00:34:26
that whereas countries like China and
00:34:29
India are more excited about the
00:34:32
opportunity to create wealth the
00:34:33
opportunity to create leverage the
00:34:35
opportunity to create abundance for
00:34:36
their people you know GDP per capita in
00:34:39
in the EU $60,000 a year GDP per capita
00:34:42
in the United States like 82,000 but GDP
00:34:45
per capita in India is 2500 and China is
00:34:48
12,600 there's a greater incentive in
00:34:50
those countries uh to manifest upside
00:34:54
than there is for the United States and
00:34:56
the EU who are more worried about
00:34:58
manifesting downside and so it is a very
00:35:01
difficult kind of social battle that's
00:35:03
underway I do think like over time those
00:35:06
governments and those countries and
00:35:08
those social systems that Embrace these
00:35:10
Technologies are going to become more
00:35:12
capitalist and they're going to require
00:35:15
less government control and intervention
00:35:17
in job creation the economy payments to
00:35:19
people and so on and the countries that
00:35:21
are more techn pessimistic are
00:35:23
unfortunately going to find themselves
00:35:25
asking for greater government control
00:35:27
govern intervention in markets
00:35:29
governments creating jobs government
00:35:30
making payments to people government's
00:35:32
effectively running the economy my
00:35:34
personal view obviously is that I'm a
00:35:36
very strong advocate for technology
00:35:40
acceleration because I think in nearly
00:35:42
every case in human history when a new
00:35:43
technology has emerged we've largely
00:35:45
found ourselves assuming that the
00:35:48
technology works in the framework of
00:35:50
today or of yester year the automobile
00:35:53
came along and no one envisioned that
00:35:55
everyone in the United States would own
00:35:57
an automobile and therefore you would
00:35:58
need to create all of these new
00:35:59
Industries like mechanics and car
00:36:02
dealerships roads all the people
00:36:04
servicing building roads and all the
00:36:06
other industry that emerg and it's it's
00:36:09
very hard for us to sit here today and
00:36:10
say okay AI is going to destroy jobs
00:36:13
what's it going to create and be right I
00:36:15
think we're very likely going to be
00:36:16
wrong whatever estimations we we give
00:36:19
the area that I think is most
00:36:20
underestimated is large technical
00:36:22
projects that seem technically
00:36:24
infeasible today that AI can unlock for
00:36:26
example habitation in in the oceans like
00:36:30
it's very difficult for us to Envision
00:36:32
like creating cities underwater and
00:36:34
creating cities in the oceans or
00:36:35
creating cities on the moon or creating
00:36:37
cities on mars or finding new places to
00:36:38
live those are like technically people
00:36:40
might argue oh that sounds stupid I
00:36:42
don't want to go do that but at the end
00:36:43
of the day like human civilization will
00:36:45
drive us to want to do that but those
00:36:47
technically are very hard to pull off
00:36:49
today but AI can unlock a new set of
00:36:51
Industries to enable those transitions
00:36:53
so I think we really get it wrong when
00:36:54
we try and assume the technology as a
00:36:57
transplant for last year or last century
00:37:00
and then we kind of become techn
00:37:01
pessimists because we're worried about
00:37:02
losing what we have are you a techn
00:37:04
pessimist are you Optimist because I you
00:37:06
uh bring up the downside of awful lot
00:37:08
here on the program but you are working
00:37:10
every day in a very optimistic way to
00:37:12
breed you know better strawberries and
00:37:15
potatoes for folks so you're a little
00:37:17
bit of a no I have no techn pessimism
00:37:19
whatsoever I try and point out why the
00:37:21
other side is acting the way they are
00:37:22
got it okay putting it in full context
00:37:24
and what I'm trying to highlight is I
00:37:25
think that that framework is wrong I
00:37:27
think that that
00:37:28
frame
00:37:30
transology the way operating the way
00:37:34
about and it creates this you know
00:37:35
because of this manifestation about
00:37:37
worrying about downside it creates this
00:37:39
fear that that creates regulation like
00:37:40
we see in the EU and as a result China's
00:37:43
GDP will scale while the euus will
00:37:45
stagnate if that's where they go that's
00:37:47
my assessment or my opinion on what will
00:37:49
happen chath you want to wrap this up
00:37:50
for us what are your thoughts on JD I'll
00:37:52
give you two okay the first is I would
00:37:55
say this is a really interesting
00:37:58
moment where I would call this the tale
00:38:00
of two vice presidents very early in the
00:38:02
Biden Administration kamla was
00:38:05
dispatched on an equally important topic
00:38:08
at that time which was illegal
00:38:09
immigration and she went to Mexico and
00:38:12
Guatemala and so you actually have a
00:38:14
really interesting AB test here you have
00:38:18
both vice presidents dealing with what
00:38:21
we're in that moment incredibly
00:38:23
important issues and I think that JD was
00:38:26
focused he was precise he was
00:38:31
ambitious and even the part of the press
00:38:35
that was very supportive of kamla
00:38:37
couldn't find a lot of very positive
00:38:39
things to say about her and the feedback
00:38:41
was it was Meandering she was ducking
00:38:44
questions she didn't answer the
00:38:46
questions that she was asked very well
00:38:49
and it's so interesting because it's a
00:38:50
bit of a microcosm then to what happened
00:38:52
over these next four years and her
00:38:54
campaign quite honestly which you could
00:38:55
have taken that window of that feedback
00:38:58
and unfortunately for her it just
00:39:01
continued to be very consistent so that
00:39:02
was one observation I had because I
00:39:05
heard him give the speech I heard her
00:39:07
and I had this kind of moment where I
00:39:09
was like wow two totally different
00:39:12
people the second is on the substance of
00:39:14
what JD said I said this on Tucker and
00:39:17
I'll just simplify all of this into a
00:39:19
very basic framework which
00:39:21
is if you want a country to thrive it
00:39:24
needs to have economic Supremacy
00:39:28
and it needs to have military
00:39:30
Supremacy in the absence of those two
00:39:32
things societies
00:39:34
crumble and the only thing that
00:39:36
underpins those two things is
00:39:38
technological Supremacy and we see this
00:39:40
today so on Thursday what happened with
00:39:43
Microsoft they had a $24 billion
00:39:46
contract with the United States Army to
00:39:48
deliver some whizbang thing and they
00:39:52
realized that they couldn't deliver it
00:39:54
and so what did they do they went to
00:39:56
andril now why did they go to andril
00:39:58
because andril has the technological
00:40:00
Supremacy to actually execute a few
00:40:03
weeks ago we saw some attempts at
00:40:05
technological Supremacy from the Chinese
00:40:07
with respect to deep seek so I think
00:40:09
that this is a very simple existential
00:40:12
battle those who can harness and
00:40:16
govern the things that are
00:40:17
technologically Superior will
00:40:20
win and it will drive economic vibrancy
00:40:24
and Military Supremacy which then
00:40:26
creates safe strong societies that's it
00:40:29
so from that perspective JD nailed it he
00:40:33
saw the forest from the trees he said
00:40:35
exactly what I think needed to be said
00:40:38
and put folks on notice that you're
00:40:39
either on the ship or you're off the
00:40:41
ship and I think that that was really
00:40:42
good yeah and there was like um a little
00:40:46
secondary conversation that emerged
00:40:48
Sachs that I I would love to engage you
00:40:50
with if you're willing which is this
00:40:54
Civil War quote unquote between maybe
00:40:57
Maga 1.0 magga 2.0 techies ver in the
00:41:01
Maga party like
00:41:02
ourselves and maybe the core Maga folks
00:41:07
we can pull up the Tweet here in JD's
00:41:09
own word and he's been engaging people
00:41:12
in his own words it's very clear that
00:41:14
he's writing these tweets a distinct
00:41:16
difference between other politicians and
00:41:18
this Administration and they just tell
00:41:20
you what they think here it is I'll try
00:41:23
and write something to address this in
00:41:25
detail this is JD Vance's tweet but I
00:41:27
think this Civil War is overstated
00:41:30
though yes there are some real
00:41:31
divergences between the populace I would
00:41:33
describe that as magga and the techies
00:41:36
but briefly in general I dislike
00:41:37
substituting American labor for cheap
00:41:39
labor my views on immigration and
00:41:41
offshoring flow from this I like growth
00:41:43
and productivity gains and this informs
00:41:46
my view on Tech and regulation when it
00:41:48
comes to AI specifically the risks are
00:41:51
number one overstate to your point Nal
00:41:54
or two difficult to avoid one of my any
00:41:57
real concerns for instance is about
00:41:59
Consumer Fraud that's a valid reason to
00:42:02
worry about safety but the other problem
00:42:04
is much worse if a pure nation is 6
00:42:06
months ahead of the US on AI again I'll
00:42:09
try and say more and this is JD going
00:42:11
right at I think one of the more
00:42:13
controversial topic
00:42:15
sacks that the administration is dealing
00:42:18
with and has dealt with when it comes to
00:42:20
immigration and Tech because these two
00:42:22
things are dovetailing each other if we
00:42:24
lose millions of driver jobs which we
00:42:27
will in the next 10 years just like we
00:42:29
lost millions of cashier jobs well
00:42:32
that's going to impact how our nation
00:42:34
and many of the voters look at the
00:42:37
border and immigration we might not be
00:42:39
able to let as many people immigrate
00:42:41
here if we're losing millions of jobs to
00:42:44
Ai and self-driving cars what are your
00:42:46
thoughts on him engaging this directly
00:42:48
saxs well the first point he's making
00:42:50
there is about wage pressure right which
00:42:53
is when you throw open our Borders or
00:42:55
you throw open American markets products
00:42:57
that can be made in foreign countries by
00:43:00
much cheaper labor that's not held to
00:43:02
the same standards the same minimum wage
00:43:04
or the same Union rules or the same
00:43:06
safety standards that American labor is
00:43:08
and has a huge cost Advantage then
00:43:09
you're creating wage pressure for
00:43:11
American workers and he's opposed to
00:43:13
that and I think that is an important
00:43:15
point because I think the way that the
00:43:17
media or neoliberals like to portray
00:43:20
this argument is that somehow mag's
00:43:23
resistance to unlimited immigration is
00:43:25
somehow based on xenophobia or something
00:43:27
like like that no it's based on bread
00:43:29
and butter kitchen table issues which is
00:43:32
if you have this ridiculous open border
00:43:35
policy it's inevitably going to create a
00:43:37
lot of wage pressure for people at the
00:43:39
bottom of the pyramid so I think JD is
00:43:41
making that argument but and this is
00:43:44
point two he's saying I'm not against
00:43:46
productivity growth so technology is
00:43:48
good because it enables all of our
00:43:50
workers to improve their productivity
00:43:52
and that should result in better wages
00:43:55
because workers can produce more the
00:43:57
value of their labor goes up if they
00:43:59
have more tools to be productive so
00:44:01
there's no contradiction there and I
00:44:02
think he's explaining why there isn't a
00:44:04
contradiction a point I would add he
00:44:07
doesn't make this point in that tweet
00:44:08
but I would add is that one of the
00:44:11
problems that we've had over the last I
00:44:12
don't know 30 years is that we have had
00:44:15
tremendous productivity growth in the US
00:44:16
but labor has not been able to capture
00:44:18
it all that benefit has basically gone
00:44:20
to Capital or to companies and I think a
00:44:23
big part of the reason why is because
00:44:25
we've had this largely unrestricted
00:44:27
immigration policy so I think if you
00:44:29
were to Tamp down on immigration if you
00:44:32
were to stop the illegal immigration
00:44:34
then labor might be able to capture more
00:44:36
of the benefits of productivity growth
00:44:38
and that would be a good thing it' be a
00:44:39
more equitable distribution of the gains
00:44:43
from productivity and from technology
00:44:46
and that I think would help Tamp down
00:44:50
this growing conflict that you see
00:44:52
between technologists and the rest of
00:44:55
the country or certainly the heartland
00:44:56
of the country nval this is a okay you
00:44:59
want to add anything else David sorry
00:45:00
well I think just the final point he
00:45:02
makes in that tweet is that he talks
00:45:04
about how we live in a world in which
00:45:06
there are other countries that are
00:45:07
competitive and specifically he he
00:45:09
doesn't mention China but he says we
00:45:10
have a pure competitor and it's going to
00:45:13
be a much worse world if they end up
00:45:16
being six months ahead of us on AI
00:45:18
rather than six months behind that is a
00:45:19
really important point to keep in mind I
00:45:21
think that the whole Paris AI Summit
00:45:24
took place against the backdrop of this
00:45:26
recognition because just a few weeks ago
00:45:28
we had deep seek and it's really clear
00:45:30
that China is not a year behind us
00:45:32
they're hot on our heels or only maybe
00:45:35
months behind us and so if we hobble
00:45:37
ourselves with unnecessary regulations
00:45:39
if we make it more difficult for our AI
00:45:42
companies to compete that doesn't mean
00:45:44
that China's going to follow suit and
00:45:45
copy us they're going to take advantage
00:45:46
of that fact and they're going to win
00:45:48
all right nval this seems to be one of
00:45:49
the main issues of our time four of the
00:45:52
five people on this podcast right now
00:45:54
are immigrants so we have this amazing
00:45:57
in America this is a country built by
00:45:59
immigrants for immigrants do you think
00:46:02
that should change now in the face of
00:46:04
job destruction which I know you've been
00:46:06
tracking self-driving pretty acutely we
00:46:10
both have an interest there I think over
00:46:12
the years you know what's the solution
00:46:16
here if we're going to see a bunch of
00:46:19
job displacement which will happen for
00:46:22
certain jobs we all we all kind of know
00:46:23
that should we shut the border and not
00:46:25
let the next Nal chamat Max and
00:46:27
freedberg into the country well let me
00:46:28
let me declare my biases up front I'm a
00:46:30
first generation immigrant I moved here
00:46:32
when I was 9 years old rather my parents
00:46:34
did and then I naturalized
00:46:36
citizen so obviously I'm in favor of
00:46:39
some level of immigration that said I'm
00:46:40
assimilated I consider myself an
00:46:42
American first and
00:46:43
foremost I bleed red white and blue I
00:46:47
believe in the Bill of Rights and the
00:46:49
Constitution first and second and fourth
00:46:52
and all the proper amendments I get up
00:46:55
there every July 4th and I deliberately
00:46:56
defend the Second Amendment on Twitter
00:46:58
at which point half my followers Go
00:47:01
Bananas you know cuz you're because I'm
00:47:03
not supposed to I'm supposed to be a
00:47:04
good immigrant right and and carry the
00:47:06
usual set of coherent leftist policies
00:47:10
globalist policies so I think that legal
00:47:14
High skill immigration with room and
00:47:17
time for assimilation makes sense you
00:47:20
want to have a brain drain on the best
00:47:21
and brightest coming to the freest
00:47:22
country in the world to build technology
00:47:26
and to help civilization move forward
00:47:29
and you know as chth was saying economic
00:47:32
power and military power is Downstream
00:47:34
of technology in fact even culture is
00:47:37
Downstream of Technology look at what
00:47:39
the birth control pill did for example
00:47:40
to culture or what the automobile did to
00:47:42
culture or what radio and television did
00:47:44
to culture and then the internet so
00:47:46
technology drives everything and if you
00:47:48
look at wealth wealth is a set of
00:47:50
physical Transformations that you can
00:47:51
affect and that's a combination of
00:47:53
capital and knowledge and the bigger
00:47:55
input to that is knowledge and so the US
00:47:58
has become the home of knowledge
00:47:59
creation thanks to bringing in the best
00:48:01
and brightest you could even argue deep
00:48:03
Seek part of the reason why we lost that
00:48:04
is because a bunch of those kids they
00:48:06
studied in the US but then we sent them
00:48:08
back home right so I think you
00:48:09
absolutely is that actually accurate
00:48:11
that they were uh yeah yeah yeah some a
00:48:13
few of them really oh my God that's like
00:48:15
exhibit a wow I didn't know that so I
00:48:17
think you absolutely have to split
00:48:20
skilled assimilated immigration which is
00:48:23
a small set and it has to be both they
00:48:25
have to both be skilled and they have to
00:48:26
become Americans that oath is not
00:48:28
meaningless right it has to mean
00:48:30
something so skilled assimilated
00:48:32
immigration you have to separate that
00:48:33
from just open borders whoever can
00:48:35
wander in just come on in that that
00:48:37
latter part makes no sense if the Biden
00:48:39
administration had only been letting in
00:48:41
people with 150 IQs we wouldn't have
00:48:43
this debate right now the reason why
00:48:45
we're having this debate is because they
00:48:48
just opened the border and let millions
00:48:49
and millions of people in it was to
00:48:51
their advantage to conflate legal and
00:48:53
illegal immigration so every time You'
00:48:55
be like well we can't just open the
00:48:56
Border say what about Elon what about
00:48:59
this and they would just parade if they
00:49:00
were just letting Elon and the Jensen
00:49:04
and freed bgs we wouldn't be having the
00:49:06
same conversation today the correlation
00:49:08
between open borders and wage
00:49:11
suppression is irrefutable we know that
00:49:13
data and I think that the
00:49:16
Democrats for whatever logic
00:49:19
committed an incredible error in
00:49:23
basically undermining their core cohort
00:49:25
I want to go back to what you said
00:49:27
because I think it's super important
00:49:28
there is a new political calculus on the
00:49:32
field and I agree with you I think that
00:49:35
the the three cohorts of the future are
00:49:39
the asset light working in middle class
00:49:42
that's cohort number one there are
00:49:45
probably 100 to 150 million of those
00:49:48
folks then there are patriotic business
00:49:51
owners and then there's leaders in
00:49:54
Innovation those are the three and I
00:49:57
think that what Maga gets right is they
00:50:00
found the middle ground that intersects
00:50:02
those three cohorts of people and so
00:50:04
every time you see this sort of left
00:50:07
versus right dichotomy it's totally
00:50:09
miscast and it sounds discordant to so
00:50:12
many of us because that's not how any of
00:50:13
us identify right and I think that
00:50:16
that's a very important observation
00:50:17
because the policies that we adapt will
00:50:19
need to reflect those three cohorts what
00:50:21
is the common ground amongst those three
00:50:24
and on that point nval is right there's
00:50:26
not lot that those three would say is
00:50:28
wrong with a very targeted form of
00:50:31
extremely useful legal immigration of
00:50:34
very very very smart people who agree to
00:50:37
assimilate and be a part of America I
00:50:39
mean I'm so glad you said it the way you
00:50:41
said it like I remember growing up where
00:50:44
my parents would try to pretend that
00:50:46
they were in Sri Lanka and sometimes I
00:50:48
would get so frustrated I'm like if you
00:50:49
want to be in Sri Lanka go back to Sri
00:50:53
Lanka I want to be Canadian because it
00:50:56
was easier for me to make friends it was
00:50:58
easier for me to have a life I was
00:50:59
trying my best I wanted to be Canadian
00:51:01
and then when I moved to the United
00:51:03
States 25 years ago I wanted to be
00:51:06
American and I feel that I'm American
00:51:09
now and I'm proud to be an American and
00:51:11
I think that's what you want you want
00:51:13
people that embrace it doesn't mean that
00:51:14
we can't dress up in a show AR CES every
00:51:16
now and then but the point is like what
00:51:19
do you believe and where is your loyalty
00:51:22
freeberg we used to have this concept of
00:51:24
in a Melting Pot of this assimilation
00:51:28
and that was a good thing then it became
00:51:29
cultural appropriation we we kind of
00:51:31
made a right turn here where where do
00:51:32
you stand on this recruiting the best
00:51:35
and brightest and forcing them to
00:51:38
assimilate making sure that they're down
00:51:40
Jason find the people that care to be
00:51:42
here yeah let me res that uh I reject
00:51:46
the premise this whole
00:51:47
conversation wait wait hold on look I'm
00:51:50
look I'm a first generation American who
00:51:53
moved here when I was five and became a
00:51:55
citizen when I was 10 and yes I'm fully
00:51:57
American and that's the only country I
00:51:59
have any loyalty to but I the the
00:52:01
premise that I reject here is that
00:52:04
somehow an AI conversation leads to an
00:52:06
immigration conversation because
00:52:08
millions of jobs are going to be lost we
00:52:09
don't know that that's also true I agree
00:52:11
you're making a huge assumption buying
00:52:14
into the
00:52:16
dorismond of jobs that is not those are
00:52:18
fact not evidence I think any jobs have
00:52:22
any jobs been lost by AI let's be real
00:52:24
we've had AI for two and a half years
00:52:25
and I think it's great but so far it's a
00:52:27
better search engine and it helps high
00:52:30
school kids cheat on their essays I mean
00:52:32
you don't believe that self driving is
00:52:35
coming hold on a second Sach you don't
00:52:37
believe that Millions but but hold on
00:52:39
those those driver jobs weren't even
00:52:41
there 10 years ago Uber came along and
00:52:42
created all these driver jobs door Dash
00:52:44
created all these driver jobs so what
00:52:46
technology does yes technology destroys
00:52:49
jobs but it replaces them with
00:52:50
opportunities that are even better and
00:52:52
then either you can go capture that
00:52:54
opportunity yourself or an entrepreneur
00:52:56
will come along and create something
00:52:57
that allows you to capture those
00:52:59
opportunities AI is a productivity tool
00:53:02
it increases the productivity of a
00:53:03
worker it allows and do more creative
00:53:05
work and less repetitive work as such it
00:53:07
makes them more valuable yes there is
00:53:09
some retraining involved but not a lot
00:53:11
these are natural language computers you
00:53:12
can talk to them in plain English and
00:53:13
they talk back to you in plain English
00:53:15
but I think David is absolutely right I
00:53:17
think we will see job creation by AI
00:53:20
that will be as fast or faster than job
00:53:22
destruction you saw this even with the
00:53:24
internet like YouTube came along look at
00:53:25
all these YouTube streamers and
00:53:26
influencers that didn't used to be a job
00:53:29
new jobs really opportunities cuz job is
00:53:32
a wrong word job implies someone else
00:53:33
has to give it to me and sort of like
00:53:35
their handed out it's a zero some game
00:53:38
forget all that it's opportunities after
00:53:41
covid look at how many people are making
00:53:43
money by working from home in mysterious
00:53:46
little ways on the internet that you
00:53:47
can't even quite grasp here's the way I
00:53:50
categorize it okay is that whenever you
00:53:52
have a new technology you get
00:53:53
productivity gains you get some job
00:53:56
disruption meaning that part of your job
00:53:58
may go away but then you get other parts
00:54:00
that are new and hopefully more elevated
00:54:03
you know more interesting and then there
00:54:05
is some job loss I just think that the
00:54:07
third category will follow the
00:54:09
historical Trend which is that the first
00:54:11
two categories are always bigger and you
00:54:14
end up with more net productivity and
00:54:16
more net wealth creation and we've seen
00:54:18
no evidence to date that that's not
00:54:19
going to be the case now it's true that
00:54:21
AI is about to get more powerful you're
00:54:22
going to see a whole new wave of what
00:54:24
are called agents this year a agentic
00:54:26
products are able to do more for you but
00:54:29
there's no evidence yet that those
00:54:31
things are going to be completely
00:54:32
unsupervised and replace people's jobs
00:54:34
so you know I think that we have to see
00:54:36
how this technology evolves and I think
00:54:38
one of the mistakes of let's call it the
00:54:41
European approach is assuming that you
00:54:43
can predict the future with perfect
00:54:45
accuracy with such good accuracy that
00:54:48
you can create regulations today that
00:54:50
are going to avoid all these risks in
00:54:52
the future and we just don't know enough
00:54:54
yet to be able to do that that's level
00:54:56
of certainty I agree with you and the
00:54:59
companies that are promulgating that
00:55:02
view is what nval said those that have
00:55:04
an economic vested interest in at least
00:55:07
convincing the next incremental investor
00:55:09
that this could be true because they
00:55:11
want to make the claim that all the
00:55:12
money should go to them so they could
00:55:13
Hoover up all the economic gains and
00:55:16
that's that is the part of the cycle
00:55:17
we're in so if you if you actually
00:55:19
stratify these reactions there's the
00:55:22
small startup companies in AI that
00:55:24
believe there's a productivity leap to
00:55:25
be had and that there's going to be
00:55:28
Prosperity everybody on the sidelines
00:55:30
watching and then a few companies that
00:55:32
have an extremely vested interest in
00:55:34
them being a gatekeeper because they
00:55:36
need to raise the next 30 or $40 billion
00:55:38
doar trying to convince people that
00:55:39
that's true and if you view it through
00:55:41
that lens you're right saxs we have not
00:55:43
accomplished anything yet that proves
00:55:45
that this is going to be cataclysmically
00:55:47
bad and if anything right now history
00:55:49
would tell you it's probably going to be
00:55:51
like the past which is generally
00:55:53
productive and a cre Society yeah and
00:55:55
just to bring it back back to JD's
00:55:57
speech which is where we started I think
00:55:59
it was a quintessentially American
00:56:02
speech in the sense that he said we
00:56:04
should be optimistic about the
00:56:06
opportunities here which I think is
00:56:08
basically right and we want to lead we
00:56:11
want to take advantage of this we don't
00:56:13
want to hobble it we don't even fully
00:56:16
know what it's going to be yet we are
00:56:19
going to Center workers we want to be
00:56:21
Pro worker and I think that if there are
00:56:24
downsides for workers then we can
00:56:25
mitigate those things in the future but
00:56:27
it's too early to say that we know what
00:56:29
the program should be it's more about a
00:56:31
statement of values at this point do you
00:56:33
think it's too early freeberg given
00:56:36
optimists and all these robots being
00:56:38
created what we're seeing in
00:56:40
self-driving you've talked about the
00:56:41
ramp up with
00:56:43
wh to actually say we will not see
00:56:46
millions of
00:56:48
jobs and millions of people get
00:56:50
displaced from those jobs what do you
00:56:51
think freeberg I'm curious your thoughts
00:56:53
because that is the
00:56:54
counterargument my experience erence in
00:56:56
the workplace is that AI
00:56:59
tools that are doing things that an
00:57:02
analyst or knowledge worker was doing
00:57:05
with many hours in the past is allowing
00:57:07
them to do something in minutes that
00:57:09
doesn't mean that they spend the rest of
00:57:11
the day doing nothing what's great for
00:57:13
our business and for other businesses
00:57:15
like ours that can leverage AI tools is
00:57:19
that those individuals can now do more
00:57:21
and so our throughput our productivity
00:57:23
as an organization has gone up and we
00:57:26
can now create more things faster so
00:57:28
whatever the product is that my company
00:57:30
makes we can now make more things more
00:57:32
quickly we can do more development
00:57:34
you're seeing it on the ground correct
00:57:35
at a hollow and I'm seeing it on the
00:57:37
ground and I don't think that this like
00:57:39
transplantation of how bad AI will be
00:57:42
for jobs is the right framing as much as
00:57:45
it is about an acceleration of
00:57:46
productivity and this is why I go back
00:57:48
to the point about GDP per capita and
00:57:50
GDP growth countries societies areas
00:57:54
that are interested or industries that
00:57:55
are interested in accelerating output in
00:57:58
accelerating productivity the ability to
00:58:00
make stuff and sell stuff are going to
00:58:03
rapidly Embrace these tools because it
00:58:04
allows them to do more with less and I
00:58:07
think that's what I really see on the
00:58:08
ground and then the second point I'll
00:58:10
make is the one that I mentioned earlier
00:58:11
and I'll wrap up with a third point
00:58:13
which is I think we're underestimating
00:58:15
the new industries that will emerge
00:58:17
drastically dramatically there is going
00:58:19
to be so much new sh that we are not
00:58:21
really thinking deeply about right now
00:58:24
that we could do a whole another 2hour
00:58:26
brainstorming session on on what AI
00:58:28
unlocks in terms of large scale projects
00:58:32
that are traditionally or typically are
00:58:34
today held back because of the
00:58:36
constraints on the technical feasibility
00:58:38
of these projects and that ranges from
00:58:41
accelerating to new semiconductor
00:58:43
technology to Quantum Computing to
00:58:45
Energy Systems to transportation to
00:58:48
habitation etc etc there's all sorts of
00:58:50
transformations in every industry that's
00:58:52
possible as these tools come online and
00:58:54
that will spurn insane new Industries
00:58:56
the most important point is the third
00:58:58
one which is we don't know the overlap
00:59:00
of job loss and job creation if there is
00:59:03
one and so the rate at which these new
00:59:05
technologies impact and great new
00:59:07
markets but I think nval is right I
00:59:08
think that what happens in capitalism
00:59:10
and in free societies is that capital
00:59:13
and people rush to fill the hole of new
00:59:15
opportunities that emerge because of AI
00:59:18
and that those grow more quickly than
00:59:19
the old bubbles deflate so if there's a
00:59:22
deflationary effect in terms of job need
00:59:24
in other Industries I think the loss
00:59:26
will happen slower then the rush to take
00:59:28
advantage of creating new things will
00:59:30
happen on the other side so my bet is
00:59:32
probably on the order of I think new
00:59:34
things will be created faster than old
00:59:36
things will be lost I think actually as
00:59:39
a quick side note to that the fastest
00:59:41
way to help somebody get a job right now
00:59:43
if you know somebody in the market who's
00:59:44
looking for a job the best thing you can
00:59:47
do is say hey go download the AI tools
00:59:49
and just start talking to them just
00:59:51
start using them in any way and then you
00:59:52
can walk into any employer in almost any
00:59:55
field and say hey I understand Ai and
00:59:57
they'll hire you on the exactly nval you
00:59:59
and I watched this happen we had a front
01:00:02
row seat to it back in the day when you
01:00:05
were doing Venture hacks and I was doing
01:00:07
open Angel Forum we had to like fight to
01:00:09
find five or 10 companies a month then
01:00:11
the cost of running these companies went
01:00:13
down they went down massively from five
01:00:15
million to start a company to two then
01:00:17
to 250k then to 100K I think what we're
01:00:21
seeing is like three things concurrently
01:00:23
you're going to see all these jobs go
01:00:24
away for automation self-driving cars
01:00:27
cashier Etc but we're going to also see
01:00:30
static team size at places like Google
01:00:32
they're just not hiring because they're
01:00:33
just having the existing bloated
01:00:34
employee base learn the tools but I
01:00:37
don't know if you're seeing this the
01:00:39
number of startups able to get a product
01:00:41
to Market with two or three people and
01:00:43
get to a million in revenue is booming
01:00:45
what are you seeing in the startup
01:00:47
landscape definitely what you're saying
01:00:49
in that there's leverage but at the same
01:00:51
time the I think the more interesting
01:00:53
part is that new startups are enabled
01:00:55
that could not exist otherwise uh my
01:00:58
last startup air chat could not have
01:00:59
existed without AI because we needed a
01:01:01
transcription and translation even the
01:01:03
current thing I'm working on it's not an
01:01:04
AI company but it cannot exist without
01:01:06
AI it is relying on AI even at angelist
01:01:09
we're significantly adopting AI like
01:01:11
everywhere you turn it's more
01:01:13
opportunity more opportunity more
01:01:14
opportunity and people like to go on uh
01:01:18
Twitter or the artist formerly known as
01:01:20
Twitter and and and basically they like
01:01:22
to exaggerate like oh my God we've hit
01:01:25
AGI oh my my God I just replaced my all
01:01:27
my mid-level Engineers oh my god I've
01:01:28
stopped hiring to me that's like moronic
01:01:31
the two valid ones are the onean
01:01:33
entrepreneur shows where there's like
01:01:35
one guy or one gal and they're like
01:01:36
scaling up like crazy things to AI or
01:01:39
there are people who are embracing Ai
01:01:41
and being like I need to hire and I need
01:01:42
to hire anyone who can even spell AI
01:01:45
like anyone who's even used AI just come
01:01:47
on in come on in again I would say the
01:01:50
easiest way to see that AI is not taking
01:01:52
jobs of creating opportunities is go
01:01:54
brush up on your learn a little bit
01:01:57
watch a few videos use the AI Tinker
01:01:59
with it and then go reapply for that job
01:02:01
that rejected you and watch how they
01:02:03
pull you in in 2023 an economist named
01:02:05
Richard Baldwin said AI won't take your
01:02:07
job it's someone using AI that will take
01:02:10
your job because they know how to use it
01:02:11
better than you and that's kind of
01:02:13
become a meme and you see it floating
01:02:14
around X but I think there's a lot of
01:02:16
Truth in that you know as long as you
01:02:18
remain adaptive and you keep learning
01:02:20
and you learn how to take advantage of
01:02:22
these tools you should do better and if
01:02:25
you wall yourself off from the
01:02:26
technology and don't take advantage of
01:02:28
it that's when you put yourself at risk
01:02:30
another way to think about it is these
01:02:31
are natural language computers so
01:02:33
everyone who's intimidated by computers
01:02:35
before should no longer be intimidated
01:02:37
you don't need to program anymore in
01:02:39
some esoteric language or learn some
01:02:41
obscure mathematics to be able to use
01:02:43
these you can just talk to them and they
01:02:44
talk back to you that's magic the new
01:02:47
programming language is English chath
01:02:48
you want to wrap us up here on this
01:02:50
opportunity slash displacement slash
01:02:53
chaos I was gonna say this before but I
01:02:56
I'm pretty unconvinced anymore that
01:03:00
you should bother even learning many of
01:03:04
the hard sciences and maths that we used
01:03:07
to as underpinnings like I used to
01:03:09
believe that the right thing to do was
01:03:11
for everybody to go into
01:03:12
engineering I'm not necessarily as
01:03:15
convinced as I used to be because I used
01:03:16
to say well that's great first
01:03:18
principles thinking etc etc and you're
01:03:20
going to get trained in a toolkit that
01:03:21
will scale and I'm not sure that that's
01:03:24
true I think like you can you can use
01:03:26
these agents and you can use deep
01:03:28
research and all of a sudden they
01:03:30
replace a lot of that skill so what's
01:03:31
left over it's creativity it's judgment
01:03:34
it's history it's psychology it's all of
01:03:37
these other sort of like softare
01:03:39
leadership communication that allow you
01:03:41
to manipulate these models in
01:03:42
constructive ways because when you think
01:03:44
of like the prompt engineering that gets
01:03:45
you to Great answers it's actually just
01:03:47
thinking in totally different orthogonal
01:03:49
ways and
01:03:50
nonlinearly so that's my last thought
01:03:52
which is it does open up the aperture
01:03:54
meaning for every smart mathematical
01:03:56
genius there's many many many other
01:03:58
people who have high EQ and all of a
01:04:02
sudden this tool actually takes the
01:04:04
skill away from the person with just a
01:04:07
high IQ and says if you have these other
01:04:09
skills now you can compete with me
01:04:11
equally and I think that that's
01:04:13
liberating for a lot of people I'm in
01:04:15
the camp of more opportunity you know I
01:04:17
I got to watch the movie industry a
01:04:19
whole bunch when the digital cameras
01:04:21
came out and more people started making
01:04:23
documentaries more people started making
01:04:25
independent film shorts and then of
01:04:27
course the Youtube Revolution people
01:04:28
started making videos on YouTube or
01:04:31
podcasts like this and if you look at
01:04:33
what happened with like the special
01:04:34
effects industry as well we need far
01:04:38
fewer people to make a Star Wars movie
01:04:41
to make a Star Wars series to make a
01:04:42
Marvel series as we've seen now we can
01:04:45
get the Mandalorian and shoka and all
01:04:47
these other series with smaller numbers
01:04:49
of people and they look better than
01:04:52
obviously the original Star Wars series
01:04:53
or even the prequels so there's there's
01:04:55
going to be so many more opportunities
01:04:57
we're now making more TV shows more
01:04:59
series everything we wanted to see of
01:05:01
every little character that's the same
01:05:03
thing that's happening in startups I
01:05:04
can't believe that there is a app now
01:05:07
nval called slopes just for uh skiing
01:05:11
and there are 20 really good apps for
01:05:15
just meditation and there are 10 really
01:05:17
good ones just for fasting like we're
01:05:18
going down this long taale of
01:05:20
opportunity and there'll be plenty of
01:05:21
million to10 million businesses for us
01:05:25
you know people learn to use these tools
01:05:27
I love how that's the thing that tips
01:05:29
you over which
01:05:32
one you get an extra Marvel movie or an
01:05:35
extra Star Wars show so that tips you
01:05:37
over I think for a lot of people it's it
01:05:40
feels great that AI may take over the
01:05:42
world but I'm gonna get next to Star
01:05:44
Wars movie so I'm I'm cool yeah I mean
01:05:46
it's are you not entertained want to
01:05:48
final point on this is look I mean given
01:05:50
the choice between the two categories of
01:05:52
techno Optimist and techn pessimist I'm
01:05:54
definitely in The Optimist camp and I I
01:05:55
think and I think we should be but I I
01:05:57
think there's actually a third category
01:05:59
that I would submit which is techno
01:06:02
realist which is technology is going to
01:06:06
happen trying to stop it is like
01:06:07
ordering the tides to stop if we don't
01:06:10
do it somebody else will China's going
01:06:12
to do it or somebody else will do it and
01:06:14
it's better for us to be in control of
01:06:17
the technology to be the leader rather
01:06:19
than passively waiting for it to happen
01:06:21
to us and I just think that's always
01:06:24
true it's better for businesses to be
01:06:27
proactive and take the lead disrupt
01:06:29
themselves instead of waiting for
01:06:29
someone else to do it and I think it's
01:06:31
better for countries and I think you did
01:06:33
see this theme a little bit I mean these
01:06:35
are my own views I don't want to ascribe
01:06:38
them to the vice president but you did
01:06:39
see I think a hint of the Techno realism
01:06:43
idea in his speech and in his tweet
01:06:45
which is look AI is going to happen we
01:06:48
might as well be the leader if we don't
01:06:51
we could lose in a key category that has
01:06:55
implications for National Security for
01:06:57
our economy for many things so that's
01:06:59
just not a world we want to live in so I
01:07:01
think a lot of this debate is sort of
01:07:03
academic because whether you're an
01:07:06
optimist or pessimist is sort of glass
01:07:08
half empty half full the question is
01:07:10
just is it going to happen or not and I
01:07:12
think the answer is yes so then we want
01:07:14
to control it this just you know let's
01:07:16
just boil it down there's not a
01:07:17
tremendous amount of choice in this I
01:07:19
think I would agree heavily with one
01:07:20
point and I would just tweak another the
01:07:23
point I would agree with is that it's
01:07:25
going to happen anyway and that's what
01:07:26
deep seek proved you can turn off the
01:07:28
flow of chips to them and you can turn
01:07:30
off the flow of talent what do they do
01:07:31
they just get more efficient and they
01:07:33
exported it back to us they sent us back
01:07:35
the best open source model when our guys
01:07:37
were staying closed source for safety
01:07:39
reasons and exactly and I deep explo
01:07:43
safety of their Equity deep seek
01:07:45
exploded the fallacy that the US has a
01:07:48
monopoly in this category and that
01:07:50
somehow therefore we can slow down the
01:07:52
train and that we have total control
01:07:55
over the train and I think what deep
01:07:56
seek showed is no if we slow down the
01:07:57
train they're just going to win yeah the
01:07:59
part the part where I TR to tweak a
01:08:01
little bit is the idea that we are going
01:08:03
to win by we when you say America the
01:08:06
problem is that the best way to win is
01:08:08
to be as open as distributed as
01:08:10
Innovative as possible if this all ends
01:08:12
up in the control of one company they're
01:08:14
actually going to be slower to innovate
01:08:15
than if there's a dynamic system and
01:08:18
that dynamic system by its nature will
01:08:19
be open it will leak to China it will
01:08:22
leak to India but these things have
01:08:24
powerful Network effects we know this
01:08:25
about technology almost all Technologies
01:08:27
has Network effects underneath and so
01:08:30
even if you are open you're still going
01:08:32
to win and you're still going to control
01:08:34
you look at the internet that was all
01:08:35
true for the internet right the
01:08:36
internet's an open Technologies based on
01:08:38
tons of Open Source Who are the Dom
01:08:40
companies all the dominant companies are
01:08:42
us companies because they were in the
01:08:43
lead exactly right exactly right we we
01:08:45
embrac the open internet we embrac the
01:08:47
open internet right that was different
01:08:48
yeah so there will be benefits for all
01:08:49
of humanity and I think the vice
01:08:51
president's speech was really clear that
01:08:53
look we want you guys to be on board we
01:08:54
want to be good
01:08:55
Partners however there are definitely
01:08:57
going to be winners economically
01:09:00
militarily and in order to be one of
01:09:02
those winners you have to be a leader
01:09:04
who's going to get to AGI first nval is
01:09:06
it going to be an open source who's
01:09:08
going to win is it going to be open
01:09:10
source or closed Source who's going to
01:09:11
win the day if we're sitting here 5 10
01:09:13
years from now and we're looking at the
01:09:15
top three language models lot of trouble
01:09:17
for this but I don't think we know how
01:09:18
to build AGI but that's that's a much
01:09:20
longer discuss who's going to have the
01:09:22
best model five years from hold on I I
01:09:24
100% agree with you I just think it's a
01:09:26
different thing but what we're building
01:09:27
are these incredible natural language
01:09:29
computers and actually David in a very
01:09:32
pithy way summarized the two big use
01:09:33
cases it's search and it's homework it's
01:09:36
paperwork uh it's it's really paperwork
01:09:38
and a lot of these jobs that we're
01:09:40
talking about disappearing are actually
01:09:42
paperwork jobs they're paperwork
01:09:43
shuffling these are madeup jobs like the
01:09:45
federal government as we're finding out
01:09:46
through Doge you know a third of it is
01:09:48
like people digging holes of spoons and
01:09:50
the another third are filling them back
01:09:51
up they're filling up paperwork and then
01:09:52
burying it in a m shaft they're buing M
01:09:54
shaft Mountain yeah so I I I think a lot
01:09:57
of these madeup jobs they got to go down
01:09:59
the M shaft to get the paperwork when
01:10:00
someone retires and bring it up you know
01:10:01
what I'm going to get them some thumb
01:10:03
drives we can increase the throughput of
01:10:04
the elevator with some thumb drives it
01:10:06
would be incredible what we found out is
01:10:08
the the DMV has been running the
01:10:09
government for the last 70 years it's
01:10:11
been a compounding compounding that's
01:10:13
that's really what's going on DMV is in
01:10:15
charge I mean if the world ends in
01:10:18
nuclear war God for bid the only thing
01:10:19
that's be left will be the Cockroaches
01:10:21
and then a bunch of like government work
01:10:24
documents s report TPS reports down in
01:10:27
the M shaft basically
01:10:30
yeah let's take a moment everybody to
01:10:33
thank our
01:10:35
Zar we miss him we wish he could be here
01:10:38
for the whole show and thank you Zar
01:10:40
thank you to the Zar see you guys miss
01:10:43
you we miss you little buddy I wish we
01:10:44
could talk about Ukraine but we're not
01:10:46
allowed get back to work we'll talk
01:10:48
about it another time over cfee I'll see
01:10:50
you in the comissary thanks for the
01:10:52
invite bye man I'm so excited I'm nval
01:10:56
saaks invited me to go to the the
01:10:58
military mess I'm going to be in the
01:10:59
commissary no he didn't J you invited
01:11:02
yourself be honest I did yes I did I put
01:11:04
it on his calendar to keep the
01:11:05
conversation moving let me segue a point
01:11:07
that came up that was really important
01:11:09
into tariffs and the point is even
01:11:13
though the internet was open the US won
01:11:16
a lot of the internet a lot of us
01:11:18
companies won the internet and they won
01:11:20
that because we got there the firstest
01:11:22
with the mostest as they say in the
01:11:23
military and that matters because a a
01:11:26
lot of Technology businesses have scale
01:11:28
economies and network effects underneath
01:11:30
even basic brand-based Network effects
01:11:33
if you go back to the late 90s early
01:11:35
2000s very few people would have
01:11:37
predicted that we would have ended up
01:11:38
with Amazon basically owning all of
01:11:40
e-commerce you would have thought it
01:11:41
would have been a perfect competition
01:11:43
and very spread out and that applies to
01:11:45
how we end up with Uber as basically one
01:11:47
taxi service or we end up with Airbnb
01:11:50
meta Airbnb it's just Network effects
01:11:52
Network effects Network effects rule the
01:11:54
world around me but but when it comes to
01:11:55
tariffs and when it comes to trade we
01:11:58
act like Network effects don't exist the
01:12:00
classic ricardian comparative advantage
01:12:02
Dogma says that you should produce what
01:12:04
you're best at I produce what I'm best
01:12:06
at and we trade and then even if you
01:12:08
want to charge me more for it if you
01:12:09
want to impose tariffs for me to ship to
01:12:11
you I should still keep tariffs down
01:12:13
because I'm better off you're just
01:12:14
selling me stuff cheaply great or if you
01:12:17
want to subsidize your guys great you're
01:12:18
selling me stuff cheaply the problem is
01:12:20
that is not how most modern businesses
01:12:22
work most modern businesses have Network
01:12:24
effects as a simple thought experiment
01:12:26
suppose that we have two countries right
01:12:28
I'm China you're the US I start out by
01:12:31
subsidizing all of my companies and
01:12:34
industries that have Network effects so
01:12:36
I'll subsidize Tik Tok I'll ban your
01:12:39
social media but I'll push mine I will
01:12:42
subsidize my semiconductors which tend
01:12:44
do tend to have win or take-all in
01:12:45
certain categories or I'll subsidize my
01:12:47
drones and then B exactly byd
01:12:50
self-driving whatever and then when I
01:12:53
win I own the whole market and I can
01:12:55
raise prices and if you try to start up
01:12:57
a competitor then it's too late I've got
01:12:59
Network effects or if I've got scale
01:13:01
economies I can lower my price to zero
01:13:03
crash you out of business no one in
01:13:04
their right mind will invest and I'll
01:13:05
raise prices right back up so you have
01:13:08
to understand that certain industries
01:13:10
have hesis or they have Network effects
01:13:12
or they have economies of scale and
01:13:14
these are all the interesting ones these
01:13:15
are all the high margin businesses so in
01:13:17
those if somebody is subsidizing or
01:13:19
they're raising tariffs against you to
01:13:21
protect your industries and let them
01:13:23
develop you do have to do something you
01:13:25
can't just completely back
01:13:28
down what are your thoughts jamath about
01:13:31
tariffs and network effects it does seem
01:13:32
like we do want to have uh redundancy in
01:13:36
supply chain so there are some
01:13:37
exceptions here any um thoughts on how
01:13:40
this might play out because yeah Trump
01:13:42
brings up tus every 48 hours and then it
01:13:45
doesn't seem like any of them land so I
01:13:47
don't know I'm I'm still on my 72-hour
01:13:49
Trump rule which is whatever he says
01:13:51
wait 72 hours and and then maybe see if
01:13:54
it actually comes to pass where do you
01:13:56
stand on all these tariffs and tariff
01:13:58
talk well I think the tariffs will be a
01:14:00
plug are they coming absolutely the
01:14:02
Quantum of them I don't know and I think
01:14:04
that the way that you can figure
01:14:07
out how extreme it will be it'll be
01:14:11
based on what the legislative plan is
01:14:14
for the budget so there's two paths
01:14:15
right now path one which I think is a
01:14:17
little bit more likely is that they're
01:14:19
going to pass a slim down plan in the
01:14:21
Senate just on border security and
01:14:24
Military spending and then they'll kick
01:14:27
the can down the
01:14:28
road for probably another three or four
01:14:31
months on the budget plan two is this
01:14:33
one big beautiful bill that's irking its
01:14:35
way through the
01:14:37
house and there they're proposing
01:14:39
trillions of dollars of cuts in that
01:14:42
mode you're going to need to raise
01:14:43
revenu somehow and especially if you're
01:14:46
giving away tax breaks and the only way
01:14:48
to do that is probably through tariffs
01:14:49
or one way to do it is through
01:14:51
tariffs my honest opinion Jason is that
01:14:53
I think we're in a very complicated
01:14:54
moment I think the Senate plan is
01:14:56
actually on the margins more likely and
01:14:59
better and the reason is because I think
01:15:01
that Trump is better off getting the
01:15:04
next 60 to 90 days of data I mean we're
01:15:07
in a real pickle here we have persistent
01:15:11
inflation we have a broken fed they are
01:15:16
totally asleep at the switch and the
01:15:18
thing that Yellen and Biden did which in
01:15:21
hindsight now was extremely dangerous is
01:15:25
they issued so much short-term paper
01:15:27
that in totality we have $1 trillion
01:15:30
dollar we need to finance in the next 6
01:15:32
to9 months so it could be the case
01:15:36
that we have rates that are like five
01:15:40
five and a quarter 5 a
01:15:42
half% I think that that's extremely bad
01:15:46
at the same time as inflation at the
01:15:48
same time as delinquencies are ticking
01:15:51
up so I think tariffs are probably going
01:15:55
to happen but I think that
01:15:58
Trump will have the most
01:16:01
flexibility if he has time to see what
01:16:05
the actual economic conditions will be
01:16:07
which will be more clear in 3 four five
01:16:10
months and so I almost think this big
01:16:12
beautiful bill is actually
01:16:13
counterproductive because I I'm not sure
01:16:14
we're gonna have all the data we need to
01:16:16
get it right fre B any thoughts on these
01:16:19
tariffs you've been involved in the
01:16:22
global uh Marketplace especially when it
01:16:24
comes to produce and wheat and all this
01:16:27
corn and everything what do you think
01:16:29
the dynamic here is going to be or is it
01:16:31
saber rattling and a tool for Trump the
01:16:35
biggest buyer of us a exports is China
01:16:38
China a exports are a major Revenue
01:16:42
Source major income source and a major
01:16:44
part of the economy for a large number
01:16:46
of states and so there will be as there
01:16:50
was in the first Trump presidency very
01:16:52
likely very large transfer payments made
01:16:55
Farmers because China is very likely
01:16:58
going to tariff Imports or stop making
01:17:01
import purchases altoe which is what
01:17:03
happened during the first presidency
01:17:05
when they did that the federal
01:17:06
government I believe had transfer
01:17:08
payments of north of $20 billion to
01:17:10
Farmers this is a not negligible sum and
01:17:13
it's a not- negligible economic effect
01:17:15
because there's then a Rippling effect
01:17:17
throughout the a economy so I think
01:17:18
that's one key thing that I've heard
01:17:20
folks talk about is the um the activity
01:17:23
that's going to be needed to support the
01:17:26
farm
01:17:27
economy as the US's biggest a customer
01:17:30
disappears in the early 20th century we
01:17:33
didn't have an income tax and the
01:17:34
federal revenue was almost entirely
01:17:36
dependent on tariffs when tariffs were
01:17:39
cut there was an
01:17:40
expectation that there would be a
01:17:42
decline in federal government revenue
01:17:44
but what actually happened is volume
01:17:45
went up so lower tariffs actually
01:17:48
increased trade increase the size of the
01:17:50
economies this is where a lot of
01:17:51
economists take their basis in hey guys
01:17:54
if we do these tariffs it's actually
01:17:56
going to shrink the economy it's going
01:17:57
to cause a reduction in trade the
01:17:59
counterbalancing effect is one that has
01:18:01
not been tested in economics right which
01:18:03
is what's going to happen if
01:18:05
simultaneously we reduce the income tax
01:18:07
and reduce the corporate income tax and
01:18:10
basically increased Capital flows
01:18:12
through reduced taxation while doing the
01:18:15
Tariff implementation at the same time
01:18:17
so it's a grand economic experiment and
01:18:19
I think we'll learn a lot about what's
01:18:21
going to happen here as this all moves
01:18:22
forward I do think ultimately these
01:18:25
countries are going to capitulate to
01:18:26
some degree and we're going to end up
01:18:27
with some negotiated settlement that's
01:18:29
going to hopefully not be too short-term
01:18:32
impactful on the economies and the
01:18:33
people and the jobs that are dependent
01:18:35
on trade economy feels like it's in a
01:18:37
very precarious place it does to asset
01:18:41
holders obviously and obviously they've
01:18:43
left it in a bad place in the last
01:18:44
Administration and we shut down the
01:18:46
entire country for a year over Co the
01:18:48
bill for that has come due and that's
01:18:50
reflected inflation I I think there are
01:18:52
a couple other points in tariffs first
01:18:54
is it's it's not just about money it's
01:18:56
also about making sure we have
01:18:57
functional middle class with good jobs
01:18:59
because if you have a non-tariff world
01:19:01
maybe all the gains go to the upper
01:19:03
class and an underclass and then you
01:19:05
can't have a functioning democracy when
01:19:06
the average person is on one of those
01:19:08
two
01:19:09
extremes so I think that's one issue
01:19:11
another is strategic Industries if you
01:19:14
look at it today probably the largest
01:19:15
defense contractor in the world is DJI
01:19:18
they got all the drones even in Ukraine
01:19:20
both sides are getting all their drone
01:19:22
parts from DJI now they're getting it
01:19:23
through different supply chain chain and
01:19:25
so on but Ukrainian drones and Russian
01:19:27
drones the vast majority of them are
01:19:28
coming through China through DJI and we
01:19:31
don't have that industry if we have a
01:19:33
kinetic conflict right now and we don't
01:19:34
have good drone supply chain internally
01:19:37
in the US we're probably going to lose
01:19:39
because those things are autonomous
01:19:40
bullets that's the feature of all
01:19:42
Warfare we're buying f-35s and the
01:19:44
Chinese are building swarms of Nar scale
01:19:47
at scale so we do have to re onore those
01:19:50
critical Supply chains and what is a
01:19:52
drone supply chain it's not just there's
01:19:54
not thing called drone it's like Motors
01:19:56
and
01:19:57
semiconductors and Optics and lasers and
01:20:00
just everything across the board so I
01:20:02
think there are other good Arguments for
01:20:04
at least reshoring some of these
01:20:05
industries we need them and the the
01:20:08
United States is very lucky and that
01:20:09
it's very aaric we have all the
01:20:11
resources we have all the supplies we
01:20:13
can we can be Upstream of everybody with
01:20:14
all the energy to the extent we're
01:20:16
importing any energy that is a choice we
01:20:19
made that is not because fundamentally
01:20:21
we the energy yeah because of between
01:20:25
all the oil resources and the natural
01:20:27
gas and fracking combined with all the
01:20:30
work we've done in nuclear fishing and
01:20:31
small reactors we should absolutely be
01:20:33
energy independ we should be running the
01:20:35
table on it we should we should have AB
01:20:37
a massive Surplus and hey you know if
01:20:39
you if you're worried about you know
01:20:41
couple of million of door Dash Uber
01:20:43
drivers losing their jobs to automation
01:20:45
like hey there's going to be factories
01:20:47
to build these parts for these drones
01:20:50
that we're going to need so there
01:20:52
there's a lot of opportunity I guess for
01:20:53
people and there is a difference between
01:20:55
different kinds of jobs those kinds of
01:20:57
jobs are better jobs building difficult
01:21:00
things at scale physically that we need
01:21:03
for both National Security and for
01:21:05
Innovation th those are better jobs than
01:21:08
you know paperwork writing essays for
01:21:10
other people to read yeah or even
01:21:12
driving cars all right listen I want to
01:21:13
get to two more stories here we have a
01:21:15
really interesting copyright story that
01:21:18
I wanted to touch on Thompson Reuters
01:21:19
just won the first major US AI copyright
01:21:22
case and fair use played a major role in
01:21:25
this decision this has huge implications
01:21:28
for AI companies here in the United
01:21:30
States obviously open Ai and the New
01:21:33
York Times Getty Images versus stability
01:21:36
we've talked about these but it's been a
01:21:37
little while because the legal system
01:21:40
takes a little bit of time and these are
01:21:41
very
01:21:42
complicated cases as we've talked about
01:21:45
Thompson Reuters owns Westlaw if you
01:21:47
don't know that it's kind of like Lexus
01:21:49
Nexus it's one of the the legal
01:21:51
databases out there that lawyers use to
01:21:53
to find cases Etc uh and they have a
01:21:56
paid product with summaries and Analysis
01:21:58
of legal decisions back in
01:22:00
2020 this is two years before chat GPT
01:22:03
reuter sued a legal research competitor
01:22:05
called Ross for copyright infringement
01:22:07
Ross had created an AI powered legal
01:22:09
search engine sounds great but Ross had
01:22:12
asked Westlaw if they would pay a
01:22:14
license to its content for training
01:22:15
wesla said no this all went back and
01:22:18
forth and then Ross signed a similar
01:22:20
deal with a company called Legal ease
01:22:22
the problem is legal E's database was
01:22:24
just cop copied and pasted from a bunch
01:22:26
of Westlaw answers so Reuters Westlaw
01:22:28
sued Ross in 2020 accusing the company
01:22:31
of being vicariously liable for legal
01:22:33
eases direct infringement super
01:22:35
important Point anyway the judge
01:22:37
originally favored Ross in fair use this
01:22:40
week the judge reversed this ruling and
01:22:42
found Ross liable noting that after
01:22:44
further review fair use does not apply
01:22:46
in this case this is the first major win
01:22:51
and uh we debated this so here's a clip
01:22:53
you know you heard it here first on the
01:22:55
all-in Pod what I would say is you know
01:22:57
when you look at that fair use Doctrine
01:23:00
I've got a lot of experience with it you
01:23:01
know the fourth Factor test I'm sure
01:23:03
you're well aware of this is the effect
01:23:04
of the use on the potential market and
01:23:06
the value of the work if you look at the
01:23:08
lawsuits that are starting to emerge it
01:23:10
is Getty's right to then make derivative
01:23:13
products based on their images I think
01:23:15
we would all agree stable diffusion when
01:23:17
they use these open web that is no
01:23:19
excuse to use an open web crawler to
01:23:22
avoid getting a license from the
01:23:23
original own owner of that just because
01:23:25
you can technically do it doesn't mean
01:23:26
you're allowed to do it in fact the open
01:23:28
Web projects that provide these say
01:23:30
explicitly we do not give you the right
01:23:32
to use this you have to then go read the
01:23:35
copyright laws on each of those websites
01:23:37
and on top of that if somebody were to
01:23:39
steal the copyrights of other people put
01:23:41
it on the open web which is happening
01:23:42
all day long you still if you're
01:23:44
building a derivative work like this you
01:23:46
still need to go get it so it's no
01:23:48
excuse that I took some site in Russia
01:23:50
that did a bunch of copyright violation
01:23:52
and then I indexed them for my training
01:23:53
model so I've think this is going to
01:23:55
result fre free can you shoot me in the
01:23:57
face and let me know when this
01:24:00
okay oh great I feel same way same way
01:24:05
now exactly I know me too yeah okay good
01:24:08
good segment let's move
01:24:09
on well since these guys don't give a
01:24:11
about copyright holders what do you
01:24:13
think about uh you know I'm so glad
01:24:16
you're here nval to actually talk about
01:24:18
the topics these two other guys I'm
01:24:20
going go thinner limb I'm going to go
01:24:22
and even thinner Limb and say I largely
01:24:23
agree with you I think it's a bit Rich
01:24:25
to crawl the open web Hoover up all the
01:24:27
data offer direct substitution for a lot
01:24:29
of use cases because you know now you
01:24:30
start and end with the AI model it's not
01:24:32
even like you link out like Google did
01:24:34
and then you just close off the models
01:24:35
for safety reasons I think if you
01:24:37
trained on the open web your model
01:24:38
should be open source yeah absolutely
01:24:41
that would be a fine thing I have a
01:24:43
prediction here I think this is all
01:24:44
going to wind up wind up like the Naps
01:24:46
or Spotify case for people who don't
01:24:49
know Spotify pays I think 65 cents on
01:24:52
the dollar to the original Underwriters
01:24:55
of of that content the music industry
01:24:58
and they figured out a way to make a
01:24:59
business and Napster is roadkill I think
01:25:03
that there is a nonzero chance like it
01:25:05
might be five or 10% that opening eye is
01:25:08
going to lose the New York Times lawsuit
01:25:10
and they're going to lose it hard and
01:25:11
there going to be injunctions and I
01:25:12
think it's the settlement might be that
01:25:15
these language models especially the
01:25:16
closed ones are going to have to pay
01:25:17
some
01:25:19
percentage in a negotiated settlement of
01:25:21
their revenue half 2/3 to the content
01:25:26
holders and this could make the content
01:25:29
industry have a massive massive uplift
01:25:32
and a and a and a massive Resurgence I
01:25:35
think that the problem there's an
01:25:37
example on the other side of this which
01:25:39
is that there's a company that provides
01:25:41
technical support for Oracle third party
01:25:44
company and Oracle has tried times to
01:25:47
soo them into Oblivion using copyright
01:25:49
infringement as part of the
01:25:51
justification and it's been a PA over
01:25:54
the stock for a long time the company's
01:25:55
name is riny Street don't ask me why I
01:25:58
it's on my radar but I just I've been
01:26:00
looking at it and they lost this huge
01:26:03
lawsuit Oracle one and then it went to
01:26:05
appella court and then it was all
01:26:07
vacated why am I bringing this up I
01:26:10
think that the legal Community has
01:26:12
absolutely no idea how these models work
01:26:14
because you can find one case that goes
01:26:16
one way and one case that goes the other
01:26:18
and what I would say should become
01:26:21
standard reading for anybody bringing in
01:26:24
of these lawsuits there's an Incredible
01:26:26
video that carpath just dropped that
01:26:28
Andre just dropped where he does like
01:26:31
this deep dive into llms and he explains
01:26:33
chat GPT from the ground up it's on
01:26:36
YouTube it's three hours it's excellent
01:26:40
and it's very difficult to watch that
01:26:43
and not get to the same conclusion that
01:26:45
you guys did I'll just leave it at that
01:26:47
H I tend to agree with this there's also
01:26:50
a good old video by ilas sover where he
01:26:53
he was a I believe the founding Chief
01:26:54
scientist or CTO of open Ai and he talks
01:26:57
about how these these large language
01:26:59
models are basically extreme
01:27:01
compressors and he models them entirely
01:27:04
as their ability to compress and they're
01:27:05
L com compression exactly lossy L
01:27:08
compression exactly exactly and Google
01:27:10
got sued for fair use back in the day
01:27:13
but the way they managed to get past the
01:27:15
argument was they were always linking
01:27:16
back to you they showed tiny sent you
01:27:18
the traffic they sent you the traffic
01:27:20
this is lossy compression it is
01:27:22
absolutely I'm now on your p i I hate to
01:27:25
say this
01:27:28
Jason I agree with you you were you were
01:27:33
right you were right that's all I wanted
01:27:36
to hear all these years that's all I
01:27:39
wanted shaking my head when I saw those
01:27:42
videos cuz I was like oh man Jason was
01:27:43
right Jason was right oh my God no I
01:27:46
just I've been through this so many
01:27:48
times that these I think this is you
01:27:50
know rer Murdoch said we should hold the
01:27:54
line with Google and not allow them to
01:27:57
index our content without a license and
01:27:59
Google navigated it successfully and and
01:28:02
they were able to to not get him to stop
01:28:04
I think what's happened now is that the
01:28:08
New York Times remembers that they they
01:28:09
all remember losing their content and
01:28:13
these Snippets and the one box to Google
01:28:16
and they couldn't get that Genie back in
01:28:18
the bottle I think the New York Times
01:28:19
realizes this is their payday I think
01:28:22
the New York Times will make more money
01:28:24
from licenses from llms then they will
01:28:27
make from advertising or subscriptions
01:28:30
eventually this will renew the model
01:28:32
almost I think the New York Times
01:28:34
content is worthless to an llm but
01:28:36
that's a different story I think the
01:28:37
actual Val cont political reason
01:28:39
whatever but I can tell you as a user I
01:28:42
loved the wire cutter I think you knew
01:28:44
Brian and everybody over the wire cutter
01:28:45
we that was like fair enough yeah wire
01:28:47
cutter what a great product I used to
01:28:50
pay for the New York Times I no longer
01:28:51
pay for the New York Times my main
01:28:52
reason was I would go to the wire cut
01:28:54
yeah and I would just buy whatever they
01:28:56
told me to buy now I go to chat gbt
01:28:59
which I pay
01:29:01
forb tells me what to buy based on the
01:29:04
wire cutter so it's it and I'm already
01:29:06
paying for it so I stop paying for it I
01:29:08
philosophically disagree with all of
01:29:10
your nonsense on this topic all three of
01:29:13
you are wrong and I'll tell you why
01:29:16
number one if information is out in the
01:29:18
open internet I I believe it's
01:29:21
accessible and it's viewable and I view
01:29:23
an llm or a WebCrawler as basically
01:29:25
being a human that's reading and can
01:29:28
store information in its brain can if
01:29:29
it's out there in the open if it's
01:29:30
behind a pay wall 100% if it's behind
01:29:32
some protected password wait wait wait
01:29:35
wait David David in that in that case
01:29:37
can a Google crawler just crawl entire
01:29:39
site and serve it on Google why can't
01:29:41
they do that there so here here's the
01:29:44
fair use the fair use is you cannot copy
01:29:46
you cannot repeat the content you cannot
01:29:48
take the content and repeat it that is
01:29:50
how the law is currently written but now
01:29:52
what I have is I have a tool that that
01:29:54
can remix it with 50 other pieces of
01:29:56
similar content and I can change the
01:29:58
words slightly and maybe even translate
01:29:59
into a different language so where does
01:30:00
it stop do you know the musical artist
01:30:02
girl talk we should have done a girl
01:30:04
talk track here today he's got musical
01:30:07
taste this guy oh good here we go he
01:30:10
basically take takes small samples of
01:30:12
popular tracks and he made and he got
01:30:14
sued for the same problem there was
01:30:16
another guy named white panda I believe
01:30:18
had the same problem Ed Sharon got sued
01:30:20
for this yeah but but their entire sites
01:30:22
like stack Overflow and Wiki that have
01:30:24
basically disappeared now because you
01:30:25
can just swallow them all up and you can
01:30:27
just spit it all back out in chat GPT
01:30:29
with slight changes so I I think that
01:30:31
the the the fair how much of a slight
01:30:33
change is exactly the right question how
01:30:36
much are you changing yeah so that's the
01:30:37
question are and it actually boils down
01:30:39
to the AGI question are these things
01:30:41
actually intelligent and are they
01:30:42
learning or are they compressing and
01:30:44
regurgitating that's the question I
01:30:45
wonder this about humans and that's why
01:30:47
I bring up the white panda the girl talk
01:30:49
in audio but also visual art there was
01:30:51
always artists and all even in classical
01:30:53
music I don't know if you guys are
01:30:54
classical music people but right there
01:30:56
was there's a demonstration of how you
01:30:59
know one composer learned from the next
01:31:01
and that you can actually track the
01:31:03
music as kind of being standing on the
01:31:05
shoulders of the prior and the same is
01:31:07
true in almost all art forms in almost
01:31:09
all human knowledge and Media
01:31:11
communication it's very hard to figure
01:31:13
that out well that's exactly right
01:31:14
that's the hard it's very hard to figure
01:31:15
that out which is why I come back to
01:31:17
there's only one of two stable solutions
01:31:19
to this and it's going to happen anyway
01:31:21
if we don't crawl it the Chinese will
01:31:22
crawl it right deep seek prove that so
01:31:24
there's only one of two stable Solutions
01:31:26
either you pay the copyright holders
01:31:28
which I actually think doesn't work and
01:31:30
the reason is because someone in China
01:31:32
will crawl it and they just dump the
01:31:33
weights right so they can just crawl and
01:31:34
com and dump the compressed weights or
01:31:37
if you crawl make it open at least
01:31:40
contribute something back to open source
01:31:42
right you crawled open data contributed
01:31:44
back to open source and the people who
01:31:46
don't want to be crawled they're going
01:31:48
to have to go to a huge length to
01:31:49
protect their data now everybody knows
01:31:51
to protect the data yeah well
01:31:55
thing is happening here I have a book
01:31:57
out from Harper business on the shelf
01:32:00
behind me and uh I'm getting 2500
01:32:03
smackaroos for the next three years for
01:32:05
uh Microsoft indexing it so they're
01:32:07
going out and they're licensing this
01:32:08
stuff and um they're going $2500 so your
01:32:12
book literally I'm getting $2,500 for
01:32:14
three years a bunch of Harper to go into
01:32:17
an llm to go into Microsoft specifically
01:32:20
and you know what I'm going to sign it I
01:32:22
decided because I just want to set the
01:32:23
precedent maybe next time it's 10,000
01:32:26
maybe next time it's 250 I don't care I
01:32:27
just want to see people have their
01:32:29
content respected and I'm just hoping
01:32:32
that Sam wman loses this lawsuit and
01:32:33
they get an injunction against it hey uh
01:32:36
well just because he's just such a
01:32:38
weasel in terms of like making open AI
01:32:42
into a Clos thing I mean I like Sam
01:32:43
personally but I think what he did was
01:32:45
like the super weasel move of all time
01:32:48
for his own personal benefit If he if he
01:32:50
and this whole lying like oh I have no
01:32:52
equity I get healthare he does it no bro
01:32:55
he does it he does it for the love what
01:32:58
what was the statement he does it for
01:32:59
the I do it for the Jo benefit out of
01:33:02
the benefits I think he got Healthcare I
01:33:04
think in opena defense they do need to
01:33:06
raise a lot of money and they got to
01:33:07
incent their employees but that doesn't
01:33:10
mean they need to take over the whole
01:33:11
thing that the nonprofit portion can
01:33:13
still stay the nonprofit portion and get
01:33:15
the Lions share the benefits and be the
01:33:17
board and then he can have an incentive
01:33:19
package and employees can have an
01:33:20
incentive package why don't they get a
01:33:22
percentage of the revenue just AB I
01:33:24
don't understand has to be bought out
01:33:27
right now for 40 billion and then the
01:33:28
whole thing disappears into a closed
01:33:30
system that part makes no sense to me
01:33:32
that's called a shell game and a scam
01:33:35
yeah I think Sam and his team would do
01:33:36
better to leave the nonprofit part alone
01:33:39
leave an actual independent nonprofit
01:33:41
board in charge and then have a strong
01:33:43
incentive plan and a strong fundraising
01:33:45
plan for the investors and the employees
01:33:47
so I think this is workable it's just
01:33:49
trying to grab it all just seems way off
01:33:51
especially when it was built on open
01:33:53
algorithms for Google open data from the
01:33:55
web and nonprofit funding from Elon and
01:33:57
others I mean what a great proposal like
01:34:00
we just workshopped here what if they
01:34:02
just what do they make six billion a
01:34:03
year just take 10% of it 600 million
01:34:06
every year and that goes into uh a bonus
01:34:09
they're losing money Jason so they have
01:34:11
to okay eventually they no but even
01:34:13
Equity they could they could give Equity
01:34:14
to the people building it but they could
01:34:16
still leave it in the control of the
01:34:18
nonprofit I just don't understand this
01:34:20
conversion I mean there was a there was
01:34:21
a board coup right the board tried to
01:34:23
fire
01:34:24
took now it's
01:34:26
hispi selfing right and yeah they'll get
01:34:29
an independent valuation but we all know
01:34:31
that game you hire valuation expert
01:34:32
who's going to say what you're going to
01:34:33
say and they'll check box if you're
01:34:35
going to capture the life cone of all
01:34:37
future value or build super intelligence
01:34:39
that's worth a lot more that's why Elon
01:34:41
just spit 100 billion exactly you're
01:34:42
saying you're saying the things that
01:34:44
actually The Regulators and and the
01:34:46
legal Community have no Insight because
01:34:48
they'll see a fairness opinion and they
01:34:50
think oh it says fairness and opinion
01:34:52
two words side by side it must be
01:34:54
and they don't know how all of this
01:34:56
stuff is gamed so yeah yeah I man I got
01:35:00
stories about 409a that would
01:35:03
exactly 49a are gamed these fairness
01:35:06
opinions are gamed but the the reality
01:35:09
is I don't think the legal and the
01:35:10
judicial Community has any idea I mean
01:35:13
imagine if a Founder you invested in
01:35:15
just is just a total imaginary situation
01:35:17
nval had like a great term sheet at some
01:35:20
incredible dollar amount didn't take it
01:35:23
ran the valuation down to like under a
01:35:25
million gave themselves a bunch of
01:35:27
shares and then took it three months
01:35:29
later I don't know what would that be
01:35:32
called Securities for wrap yeah let's
01:35:34
wrap on your story I had an interesting
01:35:36
Nick we'll show you the photo I had an
01:35:39
interesting dinner on Monday with Brian
01:35:40
Johnson the don't die guy came over to
01:35:42
my house how's his erection doing
01:35:44
overnight what we talked about is he's
01:35:46
got three hours a night of nighttime
01:35:50
erections wow look at this by the way
01:35:52
first of all I'll tell you I think that
01:35:55
I I think that he's um wait which
01:35:57
one of those is giving him the erection
01:35:59
no no no he measures his nighttime
01:36:01
erection I think has given him the
01:36:03
erection or he but he said he said that
01:36:05
when he started so by the way he said
01:36:07
he's he was 43 when he started this
01:36:09
thing he was basically clinically obese
01:36:13
yeah and in these next four years has
01:36:15
become a specimen he now has 3 hours a
01:36:17
night of nighttime erections but that's
01:36:19
not the interesting thing at the end of
01:36:21
this dinner by the way his skin is in I
01:36:24
I was not sure because when you see the
01:36:25
pictures online but his skin in real
01:36:28
life is like a porcelain dolls I've both
01:36:31
my wife and I were like we've never seen
01:36:33
skin like this and it's incredibly soft
01:36:35
wait wait wait whoa whoa whoa how do you
01:36:37
know skin is soft you know you brush
01:36:39
your hand against his forearm or
01:36:40
whatever you know gives a hug at the end
01:36:42
of the night I'm telling you the guy
01:36:44
skin is had Supple skin bro it's the
01:36:46
softest skin I've ever touched in my
01:36:48
life anyways that's not the
01:36:51
point it was really fascinating din he
01:36:54
walked through his whole protocol but at
01:36:56
the end of it I think it was Nash the
01:36:58
CEO ofo alter networks he was just like
01:37:00
give me the top three things top three
01:37:03
and of the top three things what I'll
01:37:06
boil it down to is the top one thing
01:37:08
which is like 80% of the
01:37:11
80% it's all about sleep I was about to
01:37:14
guess sleep and he walked through his
01:37:17
nighttime routine and it's incredible
01:37:18
and it's straightforward it's really
01:37:20
simple it's like how you do a wind down
01:37:22
anyways I have tried to explain the wind
01:37:25
down briefly let's just say that because
01:37:27
Brian goes to bed much earlier so our
01:37:29
normal time let's just say you know 10
01:37:30
10:30 so my time I try to go to bed by
01:37:32
10:30 he's like you need to be in bed
01:37:35
you need to first of all stop eating
01:37:36
three or four hours before right and I
01:37:39
do that I eat at 6:30 so I have about 3
01:37:42
hours you're in bed by 9:30 or
01:37:45
10 you deal with the selft talk right
01:37:48
like okay here's the active mind telling
01:37:50
you all the things you have to fix in
01:37:51
the morning talk it out put it in its
01:37:54
place say I'm gonna deal with this in
01:37:55
the morning write it down in a journal
01:37:57
you're saying whatever you do so that
01:37:59
you put it away you cannot be on your
01:38:01
phone that's got to be in a different
01:38:03
room it's or you just got to be able to
01:38:05
shut it down and then read a book so
01:38:07
that you're actually just engaged in
01:38:09
something and and and he said that he
01:38:12
typically falls asleep within three to
01:38:14
four minutes of getting into bed and
01:38:16
starting this what I tried it so I've
01:38:19
been doing it since I had dinner with
01:38:20
him on Monday last night I fell asleep
01:38:22
within 50 minutes H the hardest part for
01:38:26
me is to put the phone away I can't do
01:38:28
it of course of course what about youal
01:38:30
tell us your one down oh yeah I know so
01:38:32
I know I know Brian pretty well actually
01:38:34
and I joke that I'm married to the
01:38:35
female Brian Johnson because my wife has
01:38:38
some of his routines but she's like the
01:38:40
natural version no supplements and she's
01:38:43
intense and I think when Brian saw my
01:38:46
sleep score from my eight sleep he was
01:38:51
shot he was he he was just like you're
01:38:52
going to die he's like you're literally
01:38:54
going to die well you got 70 80 no it's
01:38:56
ter it's terrible it's awful but it's
01:38:58
tell what's your number what's your
01:38:59
number it like in 30s 40s but you know
01:39:02
yeah but it's also because I don't sleep
01:39:04
much I only sleep a few hours a night
01:39:05
and I also move around a lot in the bed
01:39:07
and so on but it's fine I I never have
01:39:09
trouble falling asleep but I I would say
01:39:11
that Brian's yes skincare routine is
01:39:13
amazing his diet is incredible he is a
01:39:16
genuine character I do think a lot of
01:39:18
what he's saying minus the supplements
01:39:20
I'm not a big believer in supplements
01:39:22
yeah does work
01:39:23
I don't know if it's necess going to
01:39:25
slow down your aging but you'll look
01:39:26
good you'll feel good yeah sleep is the
01:39:28
number one thing in terms of falling
01:39:30
asleep I don't think it's really about
01:39:32
whether you look at your phone or not
01:39:34
believe it or not I think it's about
01:39:35
what you're doing on your phone if
01:39:37
you're doing anything that is
01:39:38
cognitively stressful or getting your
01:39:40
mind to spin then yes you think you can
01:39:43
scroll Tik Tok and fall asleep is fine
01:39:46
anything that's entertaining or that is
01:39:49
uh like you could read a book right on
01:39:51
your Kindle or on your iPad and I think
01:39:53
it'd be fine falling asleep or you can
01:39:55
listen to like some meditation video or
01:39:57
some spiritual teacher or something and
01:39:58
that'll actually help you fall asleep
01:40:00
but if you're on X or if you're checking
01:40:02
your email then heck yeah that's going
01:40:04
to keep you up so my hack for sleep is a
01:40:07
little different I normally fall sleep
01:40:09
within minutes and the way I do it is I
01:40:13
you all have a
01:40:14
meditation you have a set time no no I
01:40:16
sleep whenever I feel like usually
01:40:17
around 1 in the morning two in the
01:40:18
morning God damn I'm in bed by 10 yeah I
01:40:21
need to sleep I'm an owl but if you want
01:40:24
to fall asleep the hack I found is
01:40:26
everybody has tried some kind of a
01:40:28
meditation routine just sit in bed and
01:40:30
meditate and your mind will hate
01:40:33
meditation so much that if you force it
01:40:35
to choose between the fork of meditation
01:40:37
and sleeping you will fall asleep every
01:40:39
time well okay so after if you don't
01:40:41
fall asleep you'll end up meditating
01:40:42
which is great too so just I like the
01:40:45
meditation do the body scan the coda to
01:40:47
this story was a friend a friend of mine
01:40:49
came to see me from from the UAE and he
01:40:52
was here on Tuesday and I was telling
01:40:53
him about the dinner with Brian and he
01:40:55
told me the story cuz he's friends with
01:40:57
kabib the UFC fighter and he says you
01:41:00
know when kib goes to his house he eats
01:41:02
anything and everything fried food pizz
01:41:05
whatever but he trains
01:41:07
consistently and my friend adala says
01:41:10
how are you able to do that and how does
01:41:12
it not affect your physiology goes I've
01:41:14
learned since I was a kid I sleep 3
01:41:17
hours after I train in the morning and I
01:41:19
sleep 10 hours at night and I've done it
01:41:20
since I was like 12 or 13 years old
01:41:23
that's a lot of sleep it's a lot of
01:41:25
sleep I you know the direct correlation
01:41:28
for me is if I uh do something
01:41:31
cognitively like you know big heavy duty
01:41:34
conversations or whatever so no heavy
01:41:36
conversations at the end of the night no
01:41:38
existential conversations the night and
01:41:41
then if I go rucking I have the you know
01:41:43
on the ranch I put on a 35b weight vest
01:41:45
I walk you do that at night before you
01:41:47
go to bed no no no if I do it anytime
01:41:48
during the day I typically do it in the
01:41:50
morning or the afternoon but the 1 to2
01:41:52
mile Ruck with the 35 lbs whatever it is
01:41:54
it Just Tires my whole body out so that
01:41:57
when I do lay down is that why you don't
01:42:00
prepare for the
01:42:02
podt you know I mean this pot is the top
01:42:06
10 pot in the world Chim do you think
01:42:09
it's an accident freeberg what's your
01:42:10
what's your sleep routine can you just
01:42:12
go to bed you just like warm bath and I
01:42:15
send J Calli a picture of my feet I'll
01:42:18
wait till jal's done I do take a nice
01:42:21
warm bath
01:42:23
it but you do you do it every night a
01:42:25
warm bath I do yeah I do a warm bath
01:42:27
every night with candles too and do you
01:42:30
do it right before you go to bed yeah I
01:42:32
usually do it after I put the kids down
01:42:34
and I'll basically start to wind down
01:42:35
for bed I do watch TV sometimes but I do
01:42:38
have the problem and the mistake of
01:42:40
looking at my phone probably for too
01:42:41
long before I turn the lights off so do
01:42:44
you have a consistent time where you go
01:42:45
to bed or
01:42:47
no usually 11:00 to midnight and then up
01:42:51
at 6:30
01:42:54
man I I need I need eight hours
01:42:55
otherwise I'm a mess I go to I'm trying
01:42:57
to get eight I hit between 600 and seven
01:42:59
consistently I try to go to bed that 11:
01:43:01
to 1:00 a.m. window and get up the 7 to
01:43:04
8 window my problem is if I have work to
01:43:06
do I'll get on the computer or my laptop
01:43:08
and then when I start that after in my
01:43:11
evening routine I can't stop and then
01:43:13
all of a sudden it's like 3 in the
01:43:14
morning and I'm like oh no what did I
01:43:15
just do and then I still have to get up
01:43:17
at 6:30 so that does happen to me so
01:43:20
last night was unusual for me but it was
01:43:21
kind of funny anyway I thought oh I
01:43:23
should go to bed early cuz I'm an Allin
01:43:25
yeah but I ended up eating ice cream
01:43:28
with the kids
01:43:30
late wait what was the brand you said
01:43:32
you went for another brand I want to
01:43:33
know the brand I think it's van Luen or
01:43:35
something like
01:43:37
that New York
01:43:39
and the holiday cookies and cream oh my
01:43:42
God so good yeah it's so good so after I
01:43:44
polish that off then I was like oh I
01:43:46
probably ate too much to go to bed so I
01:43:48
better work out so I did a kettle bell
01:43:51
workout you sound like Mo what did you
01:43:54
say I have eight kettle bells right here
01:43:57
right next
01:43:58
to free this is called working out
01:44:02
fre and then while I'm doing my
01:44:04
kettlebell suitcase carry I was texting
01:44:07
with an entrepreneur friend so you can
01:44:09
tell how intense my workout was and he's
01:44:11
in Singapore so it was in the middle of
01:44:13
the night for me and early for him and
01:44:15
was time to go to bed I was like I was
01:44:17
like okay now I got to get to bed how do
01:44:19
I get to bed I'm my body is all amped up
01:44:21
I've got food in my stomach
01:44:24
Bells my brain is all my brain is all
01:44:26
amped up and all in podcast is tomorrow
01:44:29
and what time is it's 1:30 in the
01:44:30
morning I better get to bed so I I put
01:44:33
on like a little one of those spiritual
01:44:35
videos to calm me down and then I just
01:44:38
and then I got in bed and I was like
01:44:40
there's no way I'm falling asleep and I
01:44:42
started meditating and 5 minutes later I
01:44:44
was asleep you know actually the dolly
01:44:46
Lama has these great on his YouTube
01:44:48
channel he's got these great like 2hour
01:44:50
discussions you get about 20 30 minutes
01:44:53
into that you will fall asleep well yeah
01:44:55
my but my learning is yeah watch any
01:44:57
Dharma lecture from the SS exactly and
01:45:00
my my lesson is my learning is that the
01:45:03
mind will do anything to avoid
01:45:05
meditation yeah yes by the way did you
01:45:08
guys see just before we W did you see
01:45:09
all the confirmations RFK Jr confirmed
01:45:12
Brook rolands confirmed by the way if
01:45:14
you look at Poly Market poly Market had
01:45:16
it all right a couple weeks ago like I
01:45:18
was TR Market there was a moment where
01:45:21
fell to like 56% there was a moment when
01:45:24
RFK fell to 75% but then they bounced
01:45:26
back and it was done could you got snip
01:45:28
that man you could have made money yeah
01:45:31
and the media the media was like no way
01:45:32
he's getting confirmed this is not going
01:45:34
to happen but poly Market knows it's so
01:45:35
interesting huh well I saw a very
01:45:38
insightful tweet and I forget who wrote
01:45:40
it so I'm sorry I can't give credit but
01:45:42
the guy basically said look Trump has a
01:45:45
narrow majority in the house and the
01:45:48
Senate yeah and he can get everything he
01:45:50
wants as long as a Republicans stay in
01:45:52
line so all the pressure and all the
01:45:54
anger that all the mega movement is
01:45:57
doing against the left is pointless it's
01:46:00
all about keeping the rightwing in line
01:46:03
so it's all the people saying to the
01:46:05
Senators hey I'm going to primary you
01:46:07
Nicole Shanahan saying I'm going to
01:46:08
primary you it's Scott Pressler saying
01:46:10
I'm moving to your District that's the
01:46:12
stuff that's moving the needle and
01:46:14
causing the confirmations to go through
01:46:15
that's how you get cash Patel that's how
01:46:17
you get toy gabber the dni that's how
01:46:19
you get RF you worry about any of these
01:46:22
you think any of them are are too spicy
01:46:23
for your taste or you just like the
01:46:25
whole burn it down put in the crazy like
01:46:29
Outsiders that's such a bad
01:46:31
characterization that's not a fair
01:46:32
characterization mean the out honestly
01:46:34
it's like I never thought I'd see it but
01:46:36
I think between Elon and sax and people
01:46:38
like that we actually have Builders and
01:46:40
doers and financially intelligent people
01:46:42
and economically intelligent people in
01:46:44
charge and you know despite all the
01:46:46
craziness elon's not doing this for the
01:46:47
money he's doing it because he thinks
01:46:49
it's the right thing to
01:46:50
do he moved into the Roosevelt
01:46:53
I I think like many of us I had I had
01:46:55
bought into the great forces of History
01:46:57
mindset where it's just like okay it's
01:46:59
inevitable this is what's happening
01:47:00
government always gets bigger always
01:47:02
gets slower and we just have to try and
01:47:04
get stuff built before they just shut
01:47:06
everything down and we turn into Europe
01:47:08
but the thing that happened then was you
01:47:10
know Caesar crossed crossed the Rubicon
01:47:11
the great man theory of History played
01:47:14
out and we're living in that time and
01:47:16
it's it's an inspiration to all of us
01:47:17
despite Sam Alman and elon's current
01:47:20
fighting I know Sam was inspired by Elon
01:47:22
at one point and I think all of us are
01:47:24
inspired by Elon I mean the guy can be
01:47:26
the Diablo player and do Doge and run
01:47:29
SpaceX and Tesla and boring and neural
01:47:32
link I mean it's incredibly impressive
01:47:33
it makes us that's why I'm doing a
01:47:34
hardware company now it makes me want to
01:47:36
do something useful with my life you
01:47:37
know Elon always makes me question am I
01:47:40
doing something useful enough with my
01:47:42
life it's why I don't want to be an
01:47:43
investor you know Peter te ironically
01:47:45
he's an investor but he's inspirational
01:47:47
that way too because he like yeah the
01:47:48
future just doesn't just happen you have
01:47:51
to go make it so you know we get to go
01:47:53
make the future and I'm just glad that
01:47:55
Elon and Doge and others are making the
01:47:56
future thatare what the what do we got
01:47:58
going on here maybe I'll all in podcast
01:48:01
in a couple of months but it's really
01:48:03
it's really difficult I'm not sure I can
01:48:04
pull it off so let me try let me just
01:48:06
make sure it's viable is it drone
01:48:07
related is it self-driving drone drones
01:48:09
are cool but no it's not maybe podcast
01:48:12
should be an angel investor oh yes
01:48:16
absolutely no no Syndicate Jason just
01:48:18
our Mone what are you talking about you
01:48:20
know how I learned about syndicates was
01:48:21
Nal the first syic I ever did on
01:48:24
angelist I think is still the biggest I
01:48:26
don't know 5% and Nal is my partner on
01:48:29
this for.com I think you'll love what
01:48:32
I'm working on if I pull it off I think
01:48:34
you guys will love it i' love to show
01:48:35
your demo let us know where to send the
01:48:37
check get that black cherry chip van
01:48:39
Leen I love you guys what have we
01:48:40
learned I gotta go okay big shout out to
01:48:43
Bobby and to Tulsa that's a huge huge
01:48:45
huge room for America I'm stoked about
01:48:47
both of them congratulations I love me
01:48:51
thanks for coming
01:48:55
let's get bobbyy Bobby come back on the
01:48:57
Pod four thear David Sachs your sulan of
01:49:02
science David freeberg the chairman
01:49:05
dictator chamath P hatita
01:49:09
POA and Namaste N I am the world's
01:49:14
greatest moderator we'll see you next
01:49:15
time on the all in pond say
01:49:19
byebye let your winners ride
01:49:23
Rainman
01:49:26
David and instead we open source it to
01:49:29
the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:49:31
with it love you queen
01:49:35
[Music]
01:49:39
of Besties
01:49:42
are that's my dog taking your
01:49:45
[Music]
01:49:47
driveways oh man myit will meet me at we
01:49:51
should all just get a room and just have
01:49:52
one big huge orgy cuz they're all this
01:49:54
usess it's like this like sexual tension
01:49:56
that they just need to release
01:49:58
[Music]
01:50:03
somehow we need to get mer
01:50:09
[Music]
01:50:13
our I'm going all in
