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could you do me a quick favor if you're
00:00:01
listening to this please hit the follow
00:00:02
or subscribe button it helps more than
00:00:04
you know and we invite subscribers in
00:00:06
every month to watch the show in person
00:00:07
opinions to me are the spice of life if
00:00:10
you don't have an opinion there's
00:00:11
something wrong with you i'm peters
00:00:13
morgan uncensored show some damn respect
00:00:15
why do you want to deport me am i
00:00:16
allowed to respond yet i'm a news junkie
00:00:18
and it started when i was six or seven i
00:00:20
mean as i got through my teens i became
00:00:22
very opinionated i read a report last
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year said 33 million people in britain
00:00:26
are mentally ill no they're not it's
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crap we're spending too much time
00:00:30
encouraging a kind of wallowing in
00:00:33
self-pity people will misunderstand the
00:00:35
use of the word but hang on hang up the
00:00:37
risk i see is being the judge of whether
00:00:39
someone's feelings are worthy of the
00:00:41
emotion
00:00:42
i'm done with this i left on a point of
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principle and the principle was i'm
00:00:46
entitled to my opinion why should my
00:00:48
sons be exposed to death threats simply
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for being my children cancer culture is
00:00:53
a virus as deadly over time as a
00:00:55
coronavirus the public wants someone to
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cancel cancel culture i want to
00:01:00
stimulate debate and to get to some kind
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of truth have you ever regretted
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anything you've said
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so without further ado
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i'm stephen bartlett and this is the
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diary of a ceo usa edition i hope
00:01:13
nobody's listening but if you are
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then please keep this to yourself
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[Music]
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this stephen this is quite quite
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interesting you're usually on the uh
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i already feel uncomfortable right
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i watch your stuff you're forensic you
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know you go deep and i'm like i don't
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know i don't really know why i'm doing
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it other than at least one of my sons is
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a massive fan of yours and said daddy
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you've got to do this podcast everyone
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listens to this podcast so whatever
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you're doing
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it's working so i'm here you make great
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kids well thank you for being here um
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the the thing i was thinking thinking
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where do i start with this conversation
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and honestly the the the center point of
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my curiosity is how you came to be the
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person you are today and i look through
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your story especially your early years
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the loss of your father
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certain experiences you've had when
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you're younger you're a self-aware guy
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you're an honest man
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what are the factors
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at that pre-teen age that went into
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making pierce morgan the man that we all
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know is this media anomaly i'm a junkie
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i'm a news junkie
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and it started when i was six or seven
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which is just weird i've had four kids
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myself the idea of being six or seven
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and being addicted to what's happening
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in the world to news to newspapers i
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used to sit and read the daily mail my
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parents used to get the mail i used to
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read it from cover to cover when i was
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six or seven so from a very early age i
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had that kind of
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fascination and curiosity with what was
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happening and i wanted to know what was
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happening and what to think about it i
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mean as i got through my teens i became
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very opinionated you know to regularly
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get thrown at my local pub on a saturday
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night for getting drunk and disorderly
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disorderly they meant just to opinion
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they'd been too loud so i'd argue with
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people and then it would get out of hand
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and i'd be thrown out i always got
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myself back in why why would you argue
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with people uh because i used to feel
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strongly about stuff you know people see
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me hyperventilating about vegan sausage
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rolls i think how can any sensible human
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being in the world get so enraged by a
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vegan sausage roll i don't know except
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that when i was young i used to get
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enraged by all sorts of things now not
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to the point where i'd hit people
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or you know
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manifest itself in any sort of violence
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but i would be
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passionate about arguing and most of my
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family are the same my grandmother was
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very opinionated my mom's very
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opinionated my siblings on they're
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probably the quiet is one of the three
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of us when we go out of all of us um so
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opinions to me are the spice of life if
00:03:38
you don't have an opinion there's
00:03:39
something wrong with you to me you've
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got to care about what's happening in
00:03:42
the world and you've got to work out
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what you think about it and i
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particularly think it's important now
00:03:47
and there's so much opinion flying
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around that people go to the right
00:03:51
people so that they hear the right kind
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of stuff because there's so much
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nonsense being spewed into the sort of
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twitter sphere and so on on facebook but
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that's why i think your show is so
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successful your podcast because then
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people appreciate the more reasonable
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take that you have on things and the way
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you try and get to the truth about
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people and about things
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so
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there's on one hand um
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loving
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to have a discussion and to have your
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opinion be heard and and to convey
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information and then there's this other
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part which i tried to understand which
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was you repeatedly said even at 16 and
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17 years old that you liked being the
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center of attention
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so i'm like where does because that
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feels like more of a psychological thing
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a lot of people don't like being the
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same i just wanted to be famous i used
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to practice my autograph when i was a
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kid why regularly i wanted to be
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fabulous i used to collect autographs so
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i was a massive cricket fan in
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particular me and my brother used to go
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and
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stand outside pavilions at professional
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games and wait for players to come out
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and get ian botham's autograph rich's
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autograph
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and i used to practice mine then i began
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writing to world leaders i've got all
00:04:55
these letters from my margaret thatcher
00:04:57
and ted heath when he was prime minister
00:04:58
and world leaders around the world i've
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got letters from donald bradman you know
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whole shaftland the greatest cricketer
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that ever lived i used to just write to
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him and used to write back so i used to
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spend my entire time in weird
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correspondence with the world's most
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famous people and quietly thinking to
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myself i'd love to be one of these
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people must be great center of attention
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everyone looking at you talking about
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you good bad and ugly so yeah i mean
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there are bits of paper at home that my
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mum's kept with just endless best wishes
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appears morgan best wishes i mean it
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sounds ludicrous and extremely vain and
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presumptuous of me but now i'm at the
00:05:34
stage where ironically i've got to a
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stage where if in the old days i had
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this level of recognition i'd be
00:05:40
starting autographs all the time but
00:05:41
nobody wants autographs anymore everyone
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wants a selfie
00:05:44
so when i finally got there yeah
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actually all the grass had gone out of
00:05:48
fashion it's now selfie time you're very
00:05:50
you're very honest about that a lot of
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people wouldn't i don't think
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i think 99 of my guests would not have
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the whatever to say i wanted to be
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famous and by the way most of them are
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lying yeah right so i i like to think
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that whether you love me or hate me i do
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have a kind of brutal honesty about what
00:06:04
i've set out to achieve
00:06:06
what i have achieved what i've failed at
00:06:08
i don't try and sugarcoat things nor do
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i try and pretend i'm something i'm not
00:06:12
you know you don't have to like me to
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respect the fact i think that i speak my
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mind i give honest opinions about stuff
00:06:18
they're not always opinions people agree
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with but i want them to be i don't want
00:06:21
people to agree with me necessarily i
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want to stimulate debate and to get if
00:06:25
hopefully get to some kind of truth
00:06:27
which is the most important thing in
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in a world where truth is so difficult
00:06:31
to find i also wanted to be famous and
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i've only really realized this in
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hindsight that i definitely wanted to be
00:06:36
famous not for the wrong reasons but i
00:06:38
think the reason i wanted to be famous
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is because
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it was the antithesis it was the
00:06:43
opposite of what i was sometimes when i
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was younger when you're a kid trying to
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fit in on the playground only black kid
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in an all-white school people calling me
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the n-word relaxing my hair to try and
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be white like my friends were and i
00:06:54
think i thought fame as
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acceptance
00:06:58
on a mass scale so i thought an
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admiration so i thought that's what i
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wanted when i read about you going to
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that comprehensive school
00:07:04
i you were also subjected to quite a
00:07:06
rough treatment yeah well my full name
00:07:07
is piers stefan pugh morgan it's a
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double barrel surname imagine having
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that name when you go to a local comp
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so you know on day one i had the local
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skinhead who had a mohican come up and i
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think smacked me in the face and that
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carried on for quite a while but it
00:07:21
carried on people doing that kind of
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thing until my brother jeremy's now a
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british army colonel joined the school
00:07:27
and he was like the old thing of mike
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tyson you know everyone's got a plan
00:07:31
until they get punched in the face
00:07:32
everyone had a plan about me
00:07:34
until my brother joined and punched him
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in the face so i realized then that fall
00:07:38
sometimes it's not a bad thing that when
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you're subjected to bullies actually
00:07:42
there's only one language most of them
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understand i feel that as i did about
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the playground at the time and i feel
00:07:49
about vladimir putin now what's going on
00:07:50
in ukraine it's the same principle when
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someone's bullying you either show them
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fear and weakness or you stand up to
00:07:56
them did you like school even though you
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were both yeah i loved it i went to a
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prep school until i was 13. so i had a
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lot of privilege at the prep school you
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know played sport every day
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great academic uh levels and so on i
00:08:08
then went to the local comprehensive
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which was a great school great very
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successful comprehensive but suddenly
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you were playing sport once a week i
00:08:16
realized then the massive gulf
00:08:18
between facilities and resource at a
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comprehensive compared to a fee paying
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prep school and how that was seemed so
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unfair to me but i also discovered that
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people
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they had chips on their shoulders in
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both environments you got the snobs at
00:08:32
the prep school and you got the yobs at
00:08:34
the
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comprehensive most people were fine at
00:08:37
both but you got those two types of
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people who would have chips on their
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shoulders
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about in the snobs case looking down on
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people in the yobs case hating people
00:08:46
who had more privilege than them i think
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i came out of that environment both
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environments with quite a healthy you
00:08:53
either have a chip on both shoulders we
00:08:54
have no chip at all i think my ability
00:08:56
to
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be exactly the same whether i'm sitting
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with nelson mandela and the queen or my
00:09:01
old village mates
00:09:03
comes entirely from that dual pronged
00:09:06
education i had where i saw great
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privilege and no privilege and had to
00:09:11
work out a way
00:09:13
of thriving in both environments i think
00:09:15
that was good for me actually if i
00:09:17
removed that experience of that
00:09:18
comprehensive school especially that
00:09:20
before your brother arrived um and saved
00:09:23
you from the bullying per se um what
00:09:26
would if i removed that experience what
00:09:27
would i remove from adult pierce morgan
00:09:30
um i think resilience and mental
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strength these are two things i'm
00:09:34
extremely hot about i think this
00:09:36
generation in particular has lost the
00:09:39
ability to look at mental strength and
00:09:41
resilience and triumph over adversity
00:09:44
and being tough in difficult times as
00:09:46
badges of honor they've almost become
00:09:48
badges of shame
00:09:50
where people feel like it's wrong to
00:09:52
have a stiff upper lip to be
00:09:54
strong-minded to be resilient to be
00:09:56
tough under pressure and i looked yes i
00:10:00
was watching the golf the masters tiger
00:10:02
woods
00:10:03
look at tiger woods the story i mean
00:10:04
unbelievable 21 is the greatest golfer
00:10:07
that's ever lived destroying everybody
00:10:09
he has it all he wins 14 majors then he
00:10:12
has one of the greatest falls in the
00:10:14
history of sport and it all involves you
00:10:16
know vegas mayhem and so on and his
00:10:20
world collapses then he has horrific
00:10:22
injuries he becomes number 1100 in the
00:10:25
world he's finished there's a whole
00:10:27
mashup of clips of people saying he's
00:10:29
washed up he's finished he'll never win
00:10:31
again whatever
00:10:33
and there's also a video of him watching
00:10:35
that mashup just after he wins the 2019
00:10:38
masters which no one said he could do
00:10:40
again and again now he has a horrific
00:10:42
car crash you know a year ago and yet
00:10:44
here he is competing in the masters he's
00:10:46
made the cut again the guy is a freak of
00:10:49
nature but he's a freak of mental
00:10:51
strength and i look at him
00:10:54
and i see rocky balboa in mentality and
00:10:58
i look at many other sports stars at the
00:11:00
moment who think it's fine to quit to
00:11:03
give up to walk away to complain all the
00:11:06
time to moan about their lot in life and
00:11:08
i think how have we come to this
00:11:09
how even in high level sport has
00:11:12
quitting now becomes something to
00:11:14
celebrate now it's a contentious issue
00:11:16
and people say you're mocking mental
00:11:18
health when you do this but i don't
00:11:19
think so i think we treat the whole
00:11:21
mental health debate the wrong way i
00:11:23
think we should separate mental health
00:11:25
from mental illness
00:11:26
i don't think mental health is an issue
00:11:28
to even be debated particularly we all
00:11:31
have mental health but if you have a
00:11:32
mental illness you need help you need
00:11:34
treatment right now people are it seems
00:11:37
to me looking at normal life stuff as
00:11:40
some form of mental illness
00:11:42
and anxiety is exploding
00:11:45
people saying they're mentally sick
00:11:48
the incidence of that is exploding how
00:11:50
can that be happening when it's all
00:11:51
we're talking about 24 7. i think we're
00:11:54
going about it the wrong way i think
00:11:55
what we're losing in this debate
00:11:58
is a celebration of resilience and
00:12:01
mental strength i really believe that
00:12:03
and i think i think schools should have
00:12:05
more people in there teaching kids how
00:12:08
to be tougher about how to deal with
00:12:10
normal life stuff and i'm not talking
00:12:13
about people who have clinical
00:12:14
depression or suicidal tendencies or any
00:12:17
of those things those are serious mental
00:12:19
illnesses i'm talking about people who
00:12:22
are
00:12:23
thinking that normal stuff that's
00:12:25
happening in my life which we all have
00:12:27
to go through grief when you lose a
00:12:29
loved one
00:12:30
trouble at work trouble with
00:12:32
relationships whatever it may be
00:12:34
you've got to learn to be more resilient
00:12:36
about these things because that is life
00:12:38
life is rocky balboa said it's it's not
00:12:41
a it's not a better roses
00:12:44
life is tough you know and it's not
00:12:45
about how many times is rock he said to
00:12:47
his son and the famous scene in the
00:12:49
sixth of the franchise when they're that
00:12:51
scene in the street with the spoiled
00:12:53
entitled sun whining away about
00:12:55
everything and rocky turns on him
00:12:58
finally and says look it's not how many
00:13:00
times you
00:13:01
can hit it's how many times you can get
00:13:03
hit get knocked down and get back up and
00:13:06
keep moving forward that is what life's
00:13:08
about
00:13:09
and i don't think
00:13:11
we spend enough time
00:13:13
helping people to be mentally strong and
00:13:15
resilient we're spending too much time
00:13:18
encouraging a kind of wallowing in
00:13:21
self-pity and weakness and it's it is
00:13:24
i'm afraid it's not working demonstrably
00:13:27
not working i remember when you did an
00:13:29
interview with a famous world leader i
00:13:31
think he was a terrorist and you said to
00:13:32
him about his daughter what if your
00:13:33
daughter had dated a jewish yeah
00:13:35
so uh president in the judge of iran
00:13:37
yeah so so the i'll use that same
00:13:41
technique if if one of your children
00:13:42
comes to you and they and they express
00:13:44
some kind of symptom which could either
00:13:46
be a lack of mental resilience or it
00:13:48
could be but they do yeah they do and
00:13:51
how do you know the difference though
00:13:52
well you don't i talk to them yeah and i
00:13:55
talk i try and with all my kids they're
00:13:56
all very different
00:13:58
but they've all come to me at certain
00:13:59
stages with issues they they want help
00:14:01
with
00:14:02
and i always try and drill into them
00:14:04
perspective the great thing you get as
00:14:06
you get older and i'm 57 now
00:14:09
you learn about life good bad and ugly
00:14:12
you learn from mistakes you learn from
00:14:14
stuff that's gone bad in your life
00:14:16
you learn that actually you either give
00:14:19
up or you keep pounding as i keep always
00:14:21
say to them keep pounding just keep
00:14:23
pounding it'll be fine
00:14:24
and it invariably is fine so they start
00:14:27
to realize over time that i'm right that
00:14:30
actually just keep going right don't
00:14:33
give up whatever it is if it's a work
00:14:35
issue if it's an exam issue if it's a
00:14:37
relationship issue whatever it is i have
00:14:38
these conversations all the time on my
00:14:40
kids you know they're like the people i
00:14:42
spend most time talking to and i try and
00:14:44
you know and they all need different
00:14:46
advice and different help in different
00:14:47
ways
00:14:48
but what i try and do is perspective all
00:14:50
the time and based on my own experience
00:14:53
it's like i've been there i've been in
00:14:54
this position it feels like the worst
00:14:56
thing in the world
00:14:57
you know you lose a girlfriend that you
00:14:59
love you lose a job that you love you
00:15:02
you know you crash a car you lose a
00:15:04
family member that you love whatever it
00:15:06
may be
00:15:07
there are all sorts of things that will
00:15:08
come and test you especially as you get
00:15:10
older you lose your first friend who
00:15:12
dies when you're young i can remember
00:15:15
losing one of my closest friends before
00:15:17
he was even 30. devastating absolutely
00:15:19
devastating but when it happens again
00:15:22
and again with people that you care
00:15:23
about you realize that's life life is
00:15:26
what it is you have one life and people
00:15:28
die and people you love die and people
00:15:30
you care about die
00:15:31
and you've got to learn to ride that
00:15:33
that wave of grief and it's not mental
00:15:36
illness
00:15:37
it's not anxiety
00:15:39
it's
00:15:40
actually just something we all have to
00:15:42
deal with but too much i think too many
00:15:45
young people today
00:15:46
feel unnaturally anxious about these
00:15:49
things as they did about the pandemic or
00:15:52
about the war in ukraine an interesting
00:15:53
conversation i had with dr phil
00:15:56
out here in america actually about this
00:15:57
who said when he was young he gave the
00:15:59
analogy when he was young if
00:16:02
someone was eaten by a crocodile on a
00:16:03
golf course in florida very unlikely
00:16:06
that anyone would know that outside of
00:16:07
the immediate area
00:16:09
you know there were very few as one or
00:16:11
two
00:16:12
main television news bulletins a day
00:16:15
there were very few national newspapers
00:16:18
most state or county newspapers
00:16:21
and so it might get reported in the
00:16:22
local paper that would be it but
00:16:24
certainly nobody outside of florida
00:16:26
would likely ever hear about that the
00:16:28
difference now is
00:16:29
young people will see the video of the
00:16:31
person being eaten by the crocodile
00:16:34
within 20 minutes of it happening
00:16:36
quite likely someone will have got it on
00:16:38
a camera on their phone so they're being
00:16:40
exposed all the time to a sensory
00:16:43
overload of quite grim stuff ukraine is
00:16:46
a very good example
00:16:47
of the first time really we've had a war
00:16:50
of this kind where we're all watching it
00:16:52
in real time
00:16:54
unfurl on social media we're seeing all
00:16:56
the videos we're seeing the horror in
00:16:59
real first hand
00:17:01
exposure and that has to have an effect
00:17:03
on your senses it has to increase your
00:17:06
anxiety levels i get all that um you
00:17:08
know my grandmother was 19 in world war
00:17:10
ii when it started 25 when it ended she
00:17:13
didn't see all this stuff you just
00:17:14
didn't get exposed to it but if she had
00:17:17
been it would have probably had a
00:17:18
devastating effect on her so i think
00:17:20
that
00:17:21
i have sympathy with this generation i
00:17:23
think in many ways they're a great
00:17:24
generation they're better informed than
00:17:26
any previous generation i think that
00:17:29
these
00:17:29
networks like instagram facebook twitter
00:17:32
and so on they've certainly given people
00:17:35
an amazing connection with each other
00:17:37
but they've also got this terrible fomo
00:17:40
which has been created which i see the
00:17:42
first time with my kids one of their
00:17:43
summer and all their mates are somewhere
00:17:45
else all they're seeing is all the fun
00:17:47
going on on instagram
00:17:49
and it makes them a bit
00:17:50
anxious
00:17:52
i never had that i didn't know what my
00:17:53
friends were doing in the next village
00:17:55
so things have changed technology's
00:17:57
changed it's good in one way it can be
00:17:59
bad in other ways and we've got to work
00:18:01
out a way to help
00:18:03
young people but ultimately i come back
00:18:05
to
00:18:06
i don't want to be unsympathetic
00:18:08
certainly i want to help
00:18:11
but i do think we're going about it the
00:18:13
wrong way i think we're encouraging or
00:18:15
wallowing we're celebrating self-pity
00:18:18
we're celebrating victimhood in a way
00:18:21
that everybody now is like you see stuff
00:18:23
on twitter like you know i've just
00:18:25
failed my driving test for the fourth
00:18:26
time but i'm so proud of myself for the
00:18:28
journey i've gone on what are you
00:18:30
talking about
00:18:31
which means you're proud of yourself you
00:18:32
just failed you're driving desperately
00:18:34
thought let's be proud of i get that
00:18:36
part the bit that i i still i'm still
00:18:38
struggling to get on board with is
00:18:39
having sat here with even i know you
00:18:41
know roman kemp yeah and his love
00:18:43
right having sat here with roman kemp
00:18:45
and hearing this what he went through
00:18:47
with his his friend who was on his radio
00:18:48
station with him i'm very aware of that
00:18:50
yeah killed himself out of the blue yes
00:18:52
and never spoke to anyone and roman said
00:18:54
if i'd lined up 20 of my friends and
00:18:55
said which one is suicidal he would have
00:18:57
been named last yeah in my estimation so
00:18:59
when i reflect on that and i i look at
00:19:02
male suicides in particular and a lot of
00:19:04
what the mental health organizations say
00:19:05
the causes of that one of them is that
00:19:07
men just don't talk about how they're
00:19:08
feeling and then that results in
00:19:10
alcoholism and these are but i do talk
00:19:11
about it yeah and i do encourage people
00:19:13
so this is what i'm saying so when
00:19:14
someone says the use of the word
00:19:16
wallowing that sounds very similar it
00:19:18
depends what they're wallowing in if
00:19:20
they're wallowing in
00:19:21
but you know when you use those words
00:19:23
yes
00:19:24
you know because you're a smart man and
00:19:26
you you you write you know that people
00:19:29
will
00:19:30
misunderstand the use of the word and
00:19:32
there's harm in them that's them
00:19:33
misunderstanding what i mean by it okay
00:19:35
it's a bit like the debate about obesity
00:19:37
we're now at the ludicrous stage of this
00:19:39
debate we're not allowed to call people
00:19:41
fat
00:19:42
you're not allowed to it's offensive
00:19:44
so we now have a situation where you see
00:19:46
a 310 pound model on the cover of
00:19:48
cosmopolitan who's five foot two she's
00:19:50
dangerously morbidly obese but the cover
00:19:54
the picture and the interview six pages
00:19:56
inside never mentions that it celebrates
00:19:58
her body positive image nothing body
00:20:01
positive about being morbidly obese
00:20:03
she's going to die if she's enabled in
00:20:05
this way going forward i'm not afraid to
00:20:08
say that and there's a society that
00:20:11
doesn't go there
00:20:12
and pretends that this is all perfectly
00:20:14
acceptable is doing that woman an
00:20:17
incredible disservice so when you say
00:20:19
well you can't use the word wallowing
00:20:21
but i would say to you stephen i didn't
00:20:23
say that because you're implying it yeah
00:20:24
yeah
00:20:26
because i would say to you a lot of
00:20:28
people do wallow i see them what's the
00:20:30
difference between wallowing and coming
00:20:32
to a friend and saying i'm feeling
00:20:33
really or even tweeting it so i'm
00:20:35
feeling like there's something wrong
00:20:37
with me what's the difference between
00:20:38
wallowing well there's a line i don't
00:20:40
know i know exactly what the line is but
00:20:43
i do know when friends or family members
00:20:45
come to me
00:20:46
either they come to me with something
00:20:47
where i think yeah they've got a valid
00:20:49
reason to feel this way or sometimes you
00:20:51
just got to go
00:20:52
get over it and then they might laugh
00:20:54
and have a drink and they get over it i
00:20:56
think by the way you're not allowed to
00:20:57
say that anymore there'll be people
00:20:58
watching this your younger audience will
00:21:00
be going oh my god did you just tell
00:21:02
people to get over it it's all about
00:21:03
people with mental illness no i'm not no
00:21:05
i'm not be very careful that you listen
00:21:07
to what i'm saying i distinguish between
00:21:09
people who i believe have mental illness
00:21:11
and people who i believe are genuinely
00:21:14
wallowing because society has decided
00:21:17
that it wants to celebrate people who
00:21:19
have something wrong with them more than
00:21:21
it celebrates now people who are
00:21:23
successful and tough achievers and talk
00:21:25
about having grit and stiff upper lip
00:21:28
and all these things that's all become
00:21:29
sticks to beat people with i have it
00:21:31
used against me a day you talk about a
00:21:34
stiff upper lip why shouldn't i
00:21:36
why shouldn't i i have a stiff upper lip
00:21:38
i've been through a lot of crap in my
00:21:39
life and i've decided that that's the
00:21:41
way i deal with it you may not like it
00:21:44
and maybe you like to deal with it by
00:21:46
going woe is me and one of my favorite
00:21:48
poems is a uh d.h lawrence poem called
00:21:51
about self-pity it's only three or four
00:21:52
lines
00:21:53
and it says a wild thing never feels
00:21:55
sorry for itself
00:21:56
a bird will die frozen
00:21:59
on a bow of a tree before it feels
00:22:01
self-pity or something like that it's a
00:22:03
brilliant poem so that's it it's only
00:22:05
about four lines
00:22:06
and i get that point is in the in the
00:22:09
jungle in the world of animals self-pity
00:22:11
doesn't exist
00:22:13
wallowing in your own woe doesn't exist
00:22:15
you've got to get on with it you know
00:22:17
one of my favorite conversations ever
00:22:19
with with sir roger bannister who sadly
00:22:21
died but he was the first man to break
00:22:23
the four-minute mile
00:22:25
and he i asked him he used to live in
00:22:28
the square i live in london and he came
00:22:30
to one of the 200th anniversary of the
00:22:31
square and i had a chat with him and i
00:22:33
said did you only you know when you won
00:22:34
this amazingly killed it collapsed at
00:22:36
the line i said did you have any sort of
00:22:38
motivational quote that drove you and he
00:22:40
went funny enough he said i have one it
00:22:42
was an anonymous proverb from the
00:22:44
african bush
00:22:45
and it was when a lion wakes up in the
00:22:47
morning
00:22:48
it knows one thing it has to run faster
00:22:51
than the slowest gazelle or it won't eat
00:22:54
and when a gazelle wakes up in the
00:22:56
morning it knows it has to run faster
00:22:59
than the slowest line or it's going to
00:23:01
get killed
00:23:02
so whatever you are in the african bush
00:23:05
one thing's for sure
00:23:07
when the sun comes up you better start
00:23:09
running
00:23:11
and that motivated him and it's a great
00:23:13
quote and i think it's a great quote for
00:23:15
all your
00:23:17
viewers listeners in this podcast to
00:23:18
take away from this interview if you
00:23:20
take one thing away
00:23:21
get running get moving
00:23:24
be positive don't let normal life stuff
00:23:26
drag you down because if it does it will
00:23:28
dominate your life and you'll become one
00:23:30
of those sort of miserable
00:23:32
self-obsessed people in the wrong way
00:23:34
where all you're thinking about is you
00:23:36
and your problems and your woes it's
00:23:38
like there are a lot of people a lot
00:23:39
worse off than you when i see some of
00:23:41
the crap i'm watching at the moment on
00:23:43
social media of people feeling sorry for
00:23:45
themselves when you see what's happening
00:23:47
in ukraine it actually makes me puke
00:23:49
it's like watch what's happening to the
00:23:51
people of ukraine and get a perspective
00:23:54
about your life and i'm sorry if that
00:23:56
sounds tough but i'm not sorry actually
00:24:00
i get you i completely get the point
00:24:01
about mental resilience and i think
00:24:02
there's so much of what you said that i
00:24:04
really agree with especially about a
00:24:06
younger generation i'm
00:24:07
i've said on this podcast many times i
00:24:09
am scared of over labeling things things
00:24:12
that might just be a bad mood or
00:24:13
whatever with something else which is
00:24:14
much more medically um concerning and
00:24:18
when i asked that question then you said
00:24:20
it depends what it is yeah in terms of a
00:24:22
friend coming to you with mental health
00:24:23
disorder the problem is
00:24:24
you'll know that these things are so
00:24:26
subjective so
00:24:27
when uh when someone comes like people
00:24:30
could genuinely be suicidal genuinely be
00:24:32
suicide not well faking or looking for
00:24:34
attention over
00:24:36
losing a cryptocurrency investment i
00:24:38
read an article about that the other day
00:24:39
guy's crypto investment goes down kills
00:24:41
himself
00:24:42
so i i the risk i see is being the judge
00:24:45
of whether someone's feelings are worthy
00:24:47
of the the emotion
00:24:49
that's the risk it's like
00:24:51
you know like i think there are because
00:24:53
there are millions of people out there
00:24:56
prepared to
00:24:58
do what you're talking about i i'm a
00:25:00
very rare voice
00:25:02
in the public platform arena who's
00:25:05
prepared to give a slightly different
00:25:06
perspective on this stuff and to me
00:25:08
there's room for both of us you know you
00:25:10
don't need any more people who are going
00:25:12
to give 24 7 coverage to mental health
00:25:15
as an issue as
00:25:17
on the assumption we're all slightly
00:25:18
mentally ill i just don't buy it i read
00:25:20
i read a report last year said 33
00:25:23
million people in britain are mentally
00:25:24
ill no but not
00:25:25
it's crap
00:25:27
crap and when when a society pretends
00:25:30
that is the case
00:25:32
because a lot of people are identifying
00:25:33
as mentally ill when actually they just
00:25:35
have anxiety about exams or
00:25:37
relationships or whatever it may be
00:25:38
when we do that it means the people who
00:25:40
really need help are not getting it it
00:25:43
means they're slipping through the
00:25:44
cracks in my opinion
00:25:46
and that's the problem with it
00:25:48
um and you know it's not about being
00:25:49
callous or insensitive my i think my
00:25:52
kids would tell you i spent hours and
00:25:54
hours
00:25:55
sometimes talking through problems with
00:25:57
them but always i come back to look
00:26:00
life's tough and you've got to keep
00:26:01
pounding that's my mantra
00:26:04
because this one i've applied to myself
00:26:05
and my family have had a lot of stuff to
00:26:08
deal with and they've kept pounding
00:26:10
because what's the alternative really
00:26:12
the alternatives you give up
00:26:14
and that to me is not an option
00:26:16
not an option that would bring me any
00:26:18
pleasure couldn't look in the mirror
00:26:19
having just given up all the time why
00:26:21
would why would that bring anyone
00:26:22
pleasure
00:26:23
i had a few words to say about one of my
00:26:25
sponsors on this podcast for many years
00:26:28
people have been asking for a coffee
00:26:30
flavoured huel and quite recently he'll
00:26:33
release the iced coffee caramel flavor
00:26:35
of their um ready to drink heels and
00:26:37
i've just become hooked on it over the
00:26:39
last couple of weeks i've been on a
00:26:40
really interesting journey with huel
00:26:42
which i've described and talked about a
00:26:44
little bit on this podcast i started
00:26:45
with the berry ready to drink then i
00:26:47
moved over to the protein salted caramel
00:26:49
because it's 100 calories and it gives
00:26:51
you all of your essential vitamins and
00:26:52
minerals but also gives you the 20 odd
00:26:54
grams of protein you need and now i'm
00:26:56
balanced between them both i drink
00:26:58
mostly the banana flavor ready to drink
00:27:00
i've got really into the iced coffee
00:27:02
caramel flavor of heels ready to drink
00:27:04
and now i'm drinking that as well as the
00:27:06
protein make sure you try the new ready
00:27:09
to drink flavors that the caramel flavor
00:27:10
is amazing the new banana flavor as well
00:27:13
is amazing and obviously as i said the
00:27:16
iced coffee caramel flavor has been a
00:27:17
real smash here so check it out let me
00:27:20
know what you think on social media i
00:27:21
see all of your tags and instagram posts
00:27:23
and tweets about you
00:27:24
back to the podcast
00:27:26
one of the things that i love about your
00:27:28
um well i was really compelled by by
00:27:30
your story as i read through your early
00:27:31
professional career was clearly for some
00:27:34
reason which i couldn't figure out from
00:27:36
just reading
00:27:37
you got a head quite quickly
00:27:39
kelvin gave you a shot yeah at the sun
00:27:42
rupert murdoch gave you a shot at news
00:27:43
of the world when you were 28 he made
00:27:45
you the the editor of the largest
00:27:48
newspaper in the western hemisphere if
00:27:49
i'm not correct 28 years old so when i
00:27:51
was reading that i i thought i've got to
00:27:53
ask him
00:27:54
why
00:27:55
what was it about you well i think that
00:27:57
i remember alex ferguson saying i know
00:27:59
you're a big united fan of my sympathies
00:28:00
at this different time i remember him
00:28:02
saying that he loved youth because there
00:28:04
was a fearlessness of youth i think i
00:28:06
was quite fearless in my 20s certainly
00:28:08
you know before you get responsibility
00:28:10
before you get married you have kids and
00:28:11
so on you get other people you're
00:28:13
responsible for there's a fearlessness
00:28:14
that comes with youth and i think i had
00:28:17
that certainly it was instilled by
00:28:19
the confidence came from my family very
00:28:21
strong women in particular in my family
00:28:23
my mum my grandmother tremendously
00:28:26
strong people who come through a lot of
00:28:28
adversity um never wallowed in self-pity
00:28:32
to quote the awful phrase i know drives
00:28:34
you mad
00:28:35
but they never did and that was just not
00:28:37
allowed it was always like just get on
00:28:38
with it dust yourself down get on with
00:28:40
it and i like that to be honest i
00:28:42
thrived under that mantra and i remember
00:28:44
kelvin mckenzie was a mercurial genius
00:28:46
in many many ways
00:28:47
brutal but brilliant you know hilarious
00:28:49
and barbaric i mean he's like everything
00:28:51
but the sun had an amazing power and
00:28:54
voice when he was in charge of it
00:28:56
and
00:28:56
he said the most annoying thing about me
00:28:59
was that he could give me the most
00:29:00
savage bollocking where literally his
00:29:02
sort of neck
00:29:04
veins would start to explode
00:29:06
and within an hour i'd bounce back into
00:29:08
his office
00:29:10
bouncing with excitement because i had a
00:29:11
scoop for him and i was completely
00:29:13
unfazed by the bollocking it had
00:29:15
motivated me to go and prove him wrong
00:29:17
and get and get a good story i think
00:29:20
that's how people should be in life
00:29:22
i think it's a shame that in the
00:29:23
workplace now you're not allowed to
00:29:25
raise your voice
00:29:26
you're not allowed to it's bullying
00:29:28
everyone's a victim of bullying you
00:29:30
can't have any banter anymore can't be
00:29:32
fun
00:29:33
all the joy's been sucked out of life by
00:29:35
this woke brigade of
00:29:38
in my view awful people
00:29:40
who just think that life should be
00:29:42
humorous
00:29:43
banterless
00:29:45
uh everything is bullying every
00:29:47
criticism is bullying
00:29:49
everything is terrible people are awful
00:29:52
you can't have fun you can't do anything
00:29:54
i don't buy it it's not what most people
00:29:56
are like
00:29:57
most people aren't like that they don't
00:29:58
actually believe the crap they're coming
00:30:00
out with they don't it's not how anybody
00:30:03
wants to lead their lives we know from
00:30:04
the pandemic what it's like when our
00:30:06
freedom our basic freedom gets taken
00:30:08
away why would we come out of a pandemic
00:30:10
would we want to lead a joyless
00:30:12
existence how do we fix this because i
00:30:13
agree with you i i think that common
00:30:15
sense has to come into play i think the
00:30:17
problem with the the woke council
00:30:19
culture as i put it is if you go and
00:30:22
study i read a whole book about this
00:30:23
last year it was a massive bestseller
00:30:25
because people understood it right so i
00:30:27
think you know where i come from
00:30:28
probably politically we're not that far
00:30:29
apart from each other i guess from what
00:30:31
i know about you um but i i want to
00:30:34
study the origin of the word woke and
00:30:36
what it meant i by that definition i'm
00:30:38
woke
00:30:39
i believe in promoting
00:30:41
uh campaigns against racial and social
00:30:44
injustice i've done it all my career as
00:30:46
a newspaper editor and as a television
00:30:48
broadcaster you know i've done that it
00:30:50
doesn't cut the ice though with the
00:30:52
modern word brigade because they've
00:30:53
stolen
00:30:55
wokery and they've now used it as a new
00:30:57
form of fascism
00:30:59
where they want to dictate to people how
00:31:01
they lead their lives what they can find
00:31:03
funny
00:31:04
what movies are acceptable are not
00:31:06
acceptable what television shows they
00:31:07
can enjoy you know what haircuts they
00:31:09
can have that aren't inappropriate or
00:31:11
cultural inappropriation you can't
00:31:13
celebrate any other culture anymore it's
00:31:16
all inappropriate every joke is
00:31:18
inappropriate every comedian has to be
00:31:20
cancelled people can't host the oscars
00:31:22
if they told a inappropriate joke 10
00:31:24
years before
00:31:26
uh yet roman polanski was given an oscar
00:31:29
after he raped a child i mean the sort
00:31:31
of warp morality of all this
00:31:33
is absolutely extraordinary to me but at
00:31:35
its center a woman came up to me in
00:31:37
kensington
00:31:38
a few months ago after the markle
00:31:40
debacle as i call it and she said she
00:31:42
said mr morgan i'm an 80 year old
00:31:44
australian woman but don't hold either
00:31:46
of those things against me i meant to
00:31:48
laugh on the streets he said the trouble
00:31:50
with these wokies is they want to suck
00:31:52
all the joy out of life and i thought
00:31:54
what a brilliant way of describing it
00:31:56
and they've literally become the very
00:31:58
fascists that they profess to hate most
00:32:01
and we have to counter it and so my
00:32:04
ambition with my new show for example is
00:32:06
to cancel cancer culture to go back to
00:32:09
what a democracy should be to what
00:32:11
society should be when it's supposedly
00:32:12
democratic where you and i can have a
00:32:14
spirited debate about something and
00:32:17
agree to disagree and go and have a beer
00:32:19
or maybe we reach points of consensus to
00:32:21
what used to happen i've had ferocious
00:32:23
arguments with my friends and family my
00:32:24
entire life the idea i would disown them
00:32:27
as you see happening all the time now
00:32:28
with people falling out with friends and
00:32:30
family because they're so blindly
00:32:32
self-righteous about their own opinion
00:32:34
that they can't tolerate another opinion
00:32:36
the idea we have university campuses
00:32:38
where
00:32:39
only one certain type of voice is
00:32:41
tolerated at a university a place you're
00:32:44
supposed to learn all sorts of disparate
00:32:46
views hear all different voices and make
00:32:48
your own mind up now no unless they're
00:32:51
woke speakers no one else is allowed if
00:32:54
you're a conservative which by the way
00:32:56
many millions of people are in this
00:32:58
country in america and australia if
00:33:00
you're a conservative you are the enemy
00:33:01
to be crushed and destroyed and no
00:33:03
platformed really
00:33:05
how do we get there
00:33:07
how could any student
00:33:09
have their mind developed or evolved in
00:33:12
an environment that cancels anybody
00:33:15
for deviating from a woke agenda
00:33:18
it's
00:33:19
madness
00:33:20
you know and when i look at what's
00:33:21
happening with the transgender debate i
00:33:24
support transgender rights to fairness
00:33:26
and equality i always have publicly in
00:33:30
columns on television
00:33:32
on twitter
00:33:33
i've been very clear i want transgender
00:33:35
people to have equality and fairness
00:33:38
right to the point where trans activism
00:33:42
leads to an erosion of women's rights as
00:33:44
we're seeing all over the place not
00:33:45
least in the world of sport if anybody
00:33:49
genuinely wants to sit here and say to
00:33:51
me that what's going on in women's sport
00:33:53
with transgender athletes is fair or
00:33:55
equal
00:33:56
i'd love to listen to it because it's
00:33:58
[Â __Â ]
00:33:59
we all know it's unfair and what's being
00:34:02
caught in the crosshairs of this is that
00:34:04
many trans people who don't want to get
00:34:06
involved in this debate and just want to
00:34:08
be able to go about their lives and try
00:34:09
and have a life of fairness and equality
00:34:12
they're getting subjected to mockery and
00:34:14
ridicule
00:34:15
because it's so ridiculous what's going
00:34:17
on
00:34:18
with
00:34:18
transport
00:34:20
and so i say to people yeah you can say
00:34:22
to me you're bigoted and you're
00:34:24
transphobic but i'm not
00:34:26
i'm actually just the voice of common
00:34:28
sense when you see even jk rowling
00:34:30
cancelled because she believes in the
00:34:33
biology of sex
00:34:35
it's just madness
00:34:37
sex is not something you can just
00:34:39
pretend like gender it could be anything
00:34:41
you make up on the spur of the moment it
00:34:43
can't be
00:34:44
you you've seen how this is
00:34:46
got progressively more let's say the
00:34:49
world has got progressively more work
00:34:51
i think
00:34:52
the world has moved from being
00:34:54
woke
00:34:56
right okay by the original i think that
00:34:58
most people in the 60s 70s and 80s
00:35:00
wanted to see better
00:35:03
racial equality and social equality
00:35:05
most people
00:35:07
but that's what the original definition
00:35:09
of woke was the modern day woke is
00:35:12
nothing to do with that the modern day
00:35:14
woke is a form of fascism okay so you
00:35:16
will abide by our rules or you get
00:35:18
destroyed that's the difference to me so
00:35:21
the world has got more of this modern
00:35:22
day wokism yeah right um and it's i i've
00:35:25
seen it on social media the way that
00:35:27
algorithms work as well they show you
00:35:28
more of the same they keep reinforcing
00:35:29
you then they then because you build an
00:35:31
audience of the same people they clap
00:35:32
more when you say a certain thing yes
00:35:33
kind of reinforcement you appreciate
00:35:34
your choir yeah you know i i i you know
00:35:37
geologies
00:35:38
you go about two thousand years we lived
00:35:40
in tribes yeah that's written in your
00:35:41
book yeah right and i told the story you
00:35:43
never used to come out of your tribe so
00:35:44
everyone in the tribe would look the
00:35:45
same same attitudes eat the same food
00:35:48
drink the same drink same senses of
00:35:50
humor because you never moved out of
00:35:52
this group of people
00:35:53
and then people began to move out of
00:35:55
their tribes and meet other tribes who
00:35:57
dress differently thought differently
00:35:58
laughed at different things maybe spoke
00:36:00
differently and both tribes in that
00:36:02
moment decided the only answer to this
00:36:05
was to kill each other
00:36:06
well that's where we've gone back to are
00:36:08
you optimistic that not really no so
00:36:11
this is what i wanted to say is your
00:36:13
antidote for this new workism is to lead
00:36:16
and to create a counter narrative which
00:36:18
is what you're doing with your new show
00:36:19
piece you haven't centered what you did
00:36:21
with your book as well are you
00:36:22
optimistic deeply that that will win
00:36:25
well let me ask you a question so i'm
00:36:26
i'm described as highly controversial
00:36:29
right i've been called all sorts of
00:36:30
names people say that what i say things
00:36:32
i say are outrageous
00:36:34
when you read my book how many times did
00:36:36
you stop and think that's outrageous no
00:36:38
i didn't really disagree with anything
00:36:39
right so that's my point i don't think
00:36:41
i'm the controversial one well so i
00:36:44
think i come at this from a reasonably
00:36:45
common scenario i didn't disagree with
00:36:47
you at all because you were talking
00:36:48
about things like populism and
00:36:49
liberalism and how it's changed i
00:36:51
completely agree i think i used to
00:36:52
identify as being on the left now i
00:36:54
don't because the the
00:36:56
the because they're nuts a lot of them
00:36:58
yeah a lot of it is absolutely nuts i
00:36:59
also don't really identify with being on
00:37:00
the right either because they're nuts i
00:37:02
agree
00:37:02
i find myself you get nuts on both sides
00:37:04
and we're moving to the extremities but
00:37:06
i'll get cancelled from both sides yes
00:37:08
because i don't wear the football kit of
00:37:09
either i'm the same yeah so i want to
00:37:10
bring back a more
00:37:12
consensus related society
00:37:15
where consensus where you reach points
00:37:17
of agreement through debate and you
00:37:20
don't try and
00:37:21
shame or cancel each other by having
00:37:23
different opinions
00:37:24
because that's at the core of this you
00:37:27
know they call themselves liberals
00:37:28
they're not liberal liberalism isn't
00:37:30
about
00:37:31
an inability to tolerate other opinions
00:37:33
it's the opposite
00:37:36
you're supposed to tolerate and respect
00:37:37
other opinions
00:37:39
and agree to disagree we've lost this in
00:37:42
society because a small group of people
00:37:44
but very vocal and very angry about
00:37:47
everything all the time
00:37:49
they are driving an agenda which if we
00:37:51
go down that road we'll be the end of a
00:37:53
democratic society as we know it so i
00:37:55
see my self
00:37:57
humbly as
00:37:59
trying to defend democracy genuinely
00:38:02
and humility is not something that comes
00:38:03
naturally to me but genuinely trying to
00:38:06
defend what democracy really is and
00:38:08
trying to educate these
00:38:10
wokies about what real liberalism is
00:38:15
what democracy actually means what free
00:38:17
speech means free speech is not about
00:38:20
you in an echo chamber all agreeing with
00:38:22
each other as churchill said free speech
00:38:25
is about listening to views you just
00:38:26
don't agree with but allowing people to
00:38:28
have different views
00:38:30
you're you know it's funny i i went
00:38:32
around the world when i was running my
00:38:33
marketing business um before i resigned
00:38:35
and i used to have one slide on my
00:38:37
presentation deck that had your face on
00:38:39
it
00:38:39
and do you know who else's face was on
00:38:41
that same slide deck i went all around
00:38:42
the world with this presentation with
00:38:44
apple amazon i had pierce morgan
00:38:47
katie hopkins kanye west and donald
00:38:49
trump and i used to tell people that
00:38:51
this a very important thing to learn
00:38:53
from these four people because whether
00:38:55
you like them or not
00:38:56
in marketing the least profitable
00:38:58
outcome is indifference when you don't
00:39:00
carry either way and people have an
00:39:01
opinion it's funny because
00:39:03
you know i was talking to the girls on
00:39:04
my team here yesterday and they don't
00:39:06
always agree with you but they're always
00:39:08
listening yeah and sometimes you know on
00:39:09
the covered issues or this issue they'll
00:39:10
be behind you and then they'll be
00:39:12
against you but do you realize
00:39:14
strategically
00:39:16
um the art of being the sen being the
00:39:19
center of conversation yes and and what
00:39:21
are the principles
00:39:23
if if it's a brand trying to be relevant
00:39:26
or the center of attention or if it's a
00:39:27
person in their personal brand for you
00:39:29
what are the principles for one to
00:39:31
replicate what you've done with that
00:39:33
confidence confidence in yourself
00:39:34
self-belief yeah i think the one thing i
00:39:37
have is a lot of self-belief i'm i'm
00:39:39
firm i remember a friend of mine kevin
00:39:40
peterson the cricketer his big mantra
00:39:43
with himself when he played cricket for
00:39:44
england was back yourself back yourself
00:39:47
whoever you're facing he was one of the
00:39:49
few players in history to demolish shane
00:39:52
warm at his peak in the 2005 ashes
00:39:54
series because he backed himself but
00:39:56
it's smashing it's risky we've seen from
00:39:58
your cause it's risky but as wayne
00:39:59
gretzky the greatest ice hockey player
00:40:01
in history
00:40:02
said brilliantly you'll miss a hundred
00:40:04
percent of the shots you don't take
00:40:06
you've got to take risks in life you've
00:40:08
got to learn from failure mars the
00:40:10
confectioners used to celebrate
00:40:13
chocolate bars that didn't work more
00:40:15
than they did chocolate bars that worked
00:40:17
they worked on the assumption that most
00:40:19
of their bars would work they tested
00:40:21
them tested and tested and knew what
00:40:22
they were doing so most of their
00:40:24
new bars would would work but if they
00:40:26
occasionally had a failure out of
00:40:27
nowhere stunned everyone they would
00:40:29
celebrate that because they reckon they
00:40:31
learn more from the failure than they
00:40:33
did from the endless success and i agree
00:40:36
i've learned more from failures and
00:40:37
success success is easy
00:40:40
when you're successful everyone must
00:40:41
have a piece of the pie and i've had
00:40:43
great success and i've had
00:40:45
wonderfully you know cataclysmic moments
00:40:48
of doing
00:40:50
and when you get the doing the old
00:40:51
cliche you find out who your friends are
00:40:53
is completely true you find out who your
00:40:55
friends are you find out who actually
00:40:57
cares about you who's prepared to stand
00:40:59
up for you
00:41:00
you know i remember
00:41:02
after my dramatic departure from good
00:41:04
morning britain sharon osbourne
00:41:06
tweeting uh that i was entitled to my
00:41:08
opinion
00:41:09
she knew by doing that there could be
00:41:11
massive repercussions for her given how
00:41:13
incendiary the whole debate was it cost
00:41:16
her a job
00:41:17
scandalously
00:41:19
scandalously she was described as a
00:41:21
racist sympathizer
00:41:23
on her show the talk but when she asked
00:41:25
them to describe what racist things i'd
00:41:27
said they weren't able to do so because
00:41:29
guess what i'd said nothing racist
00:41:31
nothing i thought about mega market was
00:41:33
driven by
00:41:34
anything to do with her race or skin
00:41:36
color why would it be
00:41:37
i just thought she was a disingenuous
00:41:39
piece of work smearing the royal family
00:41:42
i'm entitled to that opinion you may not
00:41:43
agree with it i think most people who
00:41:45
watch the interview probably ended up
00:41:46
agreeing with me it doesn't really
00:41:47
matter whether you agree or not but the
00:41:50
idea that sharon osborne was destroyed
00:41:54
at the altar of
00:41:55
cancel culture
00:41:57
because she had the audacity to say i
00:41:59
was entitled to an opinion not that she
00:42:01
even agreed with my opinion
00:42:03
just that i was entitled to one
00:42:05
that in that moment said to me
00:42:08
how ridiculous this culture has got
00:42:11
ridiculous and i'm delighted that sharon
00:42:14
is now going to be back on talk tv in
00:42:16
the uk
00:42:17
in the show after mine on a show called
00:42:19
the talk
00:42:20
she's going to be uncanceled by us
00:42:23
because she should never have been
00:42:24
cancelled in the first place and when
00:42:25
people say counseling doesn't exist look
00:42:28
at what happened to sharon look at the
00:42:30
effect it had on her and her family
00:42:31
devastating she couldn't get a job in
00:42:33
america where she'd worked for 40 years
00:42:36
so it's going on and i i want to cancel
00:42:39
that culture i think it's wrong so so
00:42:41
one of so that led to the first point
00:42:42
there was confidence in backing yourself
00:42:44
yes i think the other thing you've got
00:42:45
to have a bit of bravado a bit of
00:42:47
hutzpah
00:42:48
you've got to have an ability to know
00:42:50
how to stir things up and wind people up
00:42:52
i like to annoy all the right people who
00:42:54
are so permanently offended by
00:42:56
everything they're easy to wind up do i
00:42:58
enjoy that yes i love sometimes just
00:43:00
putting a tweeter i mean the vegan
00:43:02
sausage roll debate was one of the
00:43:03
funniest things ever i had the flu on
00:43:06
holiday in italy i was in bed sweating
00:43:08
with a raging fever and i saw greg
00:43:10
saying the wait is over
00:43:12
finally it's here the vegan sausage
00:43:15
right so what on earth are you talking
00:43:17
about who's been waiting for a vegan
00:43:19
sausage roll apart from anything else
00:43:20
like brew with the french where it's
00:43:22
illegal to market
00:43:24
uh vegetarian or vegan products using
00:43:27
meat language a sausage roll is meat
00:43:31
if vegans want to eat their gruel fine
00:43:33
go and have a joyless existence munching
00:43:36
your lentils don't take my language
00:43:38
don't pretend your sausage rolls are
00:43:40
real sausage rolls they're not and
00:43:42
they're tasteless and they've got more
00:43:43
calories than mcdonald's cheeseburgers
00:43:45
so my point is
00:43:46
do i care look i don't care as much as i
00:43:48
do about ukraine
00:43:49
but in the moment it really annoyed me
00:43:51
that there was a presumption we'd all
00:43:52
been waiting for a vegan sausage roll
00:43:54
and i was also annoyed that you were
00:43:56
seeing stories of
00:43:57
vegans charging into state restaurants
00:43:59
and playing music of cows being killed
00:44:01
it's like shut up and go away i don't
00:44:04
come into your gruel restaurant
00:44:06
ever and shout about what you do to the
00:44:08
bee community in california when you eat
00:44:10
your almonds and almond milk right
00:44:12
billions of bees exterminated every year
00:44:15
in a six week cull in california so
00:44:18
vegans can eat almonds and eat avocados
00:44:22
but do you care about vegan sausage
00:44:23
rolls uh i care about the hypocrisy that
00:44:25
surrounds the debate actually so anyway
00:44:27
i did a tweet saying this is ridiculous
00:44:31
and
00:44:32
and everyone went nuts i wasn't allowed
00:44:34
to think that this was ridiculous i had
00:44:36
to agree that vegan sausage rolls are
00:44:37
fantastic everyone goes bonkers
00:44:40
greg's love it because they sell i think
00:44:42
about a billion dollars worth more of
00:44:45
their products that year in fact the ceo
00:44:47
thanked me personally at the end of year
00:44:48
results so they cleaned up in fact i'm
00:44:51
thinking about going to a business where
00:44:52
all i do is take big checks from
00:44:54
companies to attack their products and
00:44:55
probably make a fortune and but the
00:44:57
whole thing to show me that everyone was
00:44:59
allowed to love vegan sausage rolls but
00:45:01
if you deviated from that and said you
00:45:03
hated them you had to be destroyed this
00:45:06
wasn't acceptable
00:45:07
the work brigade decided vegan sausage
00:45:09
rolls were untouchable you had to
00:45:11
support them you had to think they were
00:45:13
great this was brilliant even though
00:45:15
they're bad for you
00:45:16
literally worse for you than a
00:45:17
mcdonald's cheeseburger uh in terms of
00:45:20
salt and calorie intake
00:45:22
and even though the whole thing was
00:45:23
predicated on this utter hypocrisy
00:45:25
around vegan food that somehow they're
00:45:28
leaving the little the animals alone
00:45:29
when they exterminate the little guys
00:45:31
the bees and i feel sorry for the bees
00:45:33
no one ever hear vegans talk about bees
00:45:35
here it's always the big animals they
00:45:36
care about cows not the little guys i'm
00:45:39
a little guy
00:45:40
i'm the robin hood of this debate i look
00:45:42
after the little guys against the
00:45:43
sheriffs of nottingham sure
00:45:47
well i think about that so okay you play
00:45:50
that you play you know i know from what
00:45:52
you've said here you know that it's part
00:45:53
of it is a game and it's a very
00:45:54
profitable it's all fun right to a point
00:45:57
but there's also a serious point behind
00:45:58
it which is that actually
00:46:00
the vegan
00:46:02
food business is a massively burgeoning
00:46:04
business and that's fine people want to
00:46:05
eat that that's fine but i do agree with
00:46:07
the french that actually you shouldn't
00:46:08
be allowed to
00:46:10
pretend what you're doing is meat
00:46:12
related because it's not so there's a
00:46:13
genuine point there which i do feel
00:46:15
quite strongly about the french have
00:46:16
made it illegal you can't use meat
00:46:19
language to sell vegan products i think
00:46:21
we should go the same way you have your
00:46:23
world and we'll have ours you know your
00:46:25
career has been pretty filled with these
00:46:26
moments of like where you are the center
00:46:28
the orbit of sort of you know
00:46:30
debate and controversy controversy when
00:46:33
you go for a period and people aren't
00:46:34
tweeting at your abuse and stuff and
00:46:35
they're not kicking off do you feel a
00:46:37
little bit like [Â __Â ] was i've made a
00:46:38
mistake i remember donald trump telling
00:46:39
me when he got to the white house he put
00:46:41
four tvs in his bedroom i used to wake
00:46:43
up in the morning at five o'clock
00:46:44
because he doesn't sleep
00:46:46
and he'd look at the tvs and if he
00:46:47
didn't like what was on the screen or if
00:46:48
it wasn't about him he'd just pull his
00:46:50
phone out and tweet something and next
00:46:51
thing they'd all change in real time
00:46:53
breaking news president trump says blah
00:46:55
blah blah and i kind of related to that
00:46:58
it's like i wake up in the morning and
00:46:59
i'm not trending it's like there's a
00:47:00
problem and i have to deal with it so
00:47:01
yeah look i'm in the opinion business
00:47:03
it's very lucrative for me i make a lot
00:47:05
of money out of it i get a lot of
00:47:07
notoriety and fame out of it people love
00:47:10
me or hate me but you know that's
00:47:12
part of being in the opinion business if
00:47:14
you don't want to be
00:47:15
loved and hated
00:47:17
then you don't express opinions about
00:47:18
anything and that way to me madness lies
00:47:21
you know i'd much rather be it's like
00:47:23
the old again churchill uh you know he
00:47:25
said that
00:47:26
if you've got enemies it means at some
00:47:28
stage in your life you stood up for
00:47:29
something that you believe in good
00:47:32
that's good
00:47:33
when you've had those you you called
00:47:34
them catastrophic events in your life
00:47:35
where you know
00:47:37
and well other people see them as
00:47:38
catastrophic i've never really seen it
00:47:40
that way myself like when i got fired
00:47:41
from the mirror for example yeah after
00:47:43
10 years other people were far more
00:47:46
agitated about that and thought it was
00:47:48
far more characterism than i did the
00:47:49
mirror good morning britain and this was
00:47:51
the other thing about your story which i
00:47:52
found really i wanted to ask you about
00:47:54
is you have these these ups and then
00:47:56
these downs and these ups and these
00:47:57
downs and your twitter bio i think is
00:48:00
probably quite an an apt um
00:48:03
summary of of maybe your views on this
00:48:04
which is i can't remember exactly but
00:48:06
one day of the cockpit one day you're
00:48:07
the [Â __Â ] of the war next to feather
00:48:09
duster yeah so
00:48:10
and then i read that you know after like
00:48:12
the mirror situation you slept a lot
00:48:14
yeah
00:48:15
and then and then also it seems that
00:48:16
after every firing or push getting
00:48:18
pushed out whatever you go and get
00:48:19
pissed no
00:48:22
again churchill who i love as you may
00:48:24
have gathered again churchill who's now
00:48:26
being reviled by the white brigade of
00:48:28
course because he saved the world from
00:48:29
nazi germany so of course he has to be
00:48:31
destroyed
00:48:32
but churchill you know he he also said
00:48:34
that the best definition of success is
00:48:36
going from failure to failure with no
00:48:38
discernible loss of enthusiasm now i
00:48:40
think i've had a lot of success and
00:48:42
occasional failure but i don't look upon
00:48:44
any of the downs in the same way that
00:48:46
other people do about my career i'm very
00:48:48
relaxed about my level of success and
00:48:50
failure i think it's all been greased to
00:48:52
the mill
00:48:53
normally i've left somewhere in
00:48:55
explosive circumstances and it's lit to
00:48:58
something better invariably so i'm very
00:49:00
optimistic about it my glasses always
00:49:02
are full i think that one chapter ending
00:49:05
is another chapter about to start you
00:49:07
just have to make sure you get something
00:49:08
good
00:49:09
if i spoke to your wife i mean even your
00:49:11
kids and i said how does pierce's
00:49:13
emotional state change after in one of
00:49:16
these moments of catastrophic
00:49:18
failure getting kicked out
00:49:20
they'd say what i'm saying
00:49:22
he doesn't change at all barely at all
00:49:25
barely at all no i don't i don't i
00:49:27
probably if anything i'm more relaxed
00:49:28
that's all because when you're in one of
00:49:30
these cauldron jobs editing a daily
00:49:32
newspaper or doing a morning tv show you
00:49:35
know and you've got the adrenaline
00:49:36
whirring and you're caffeined up and so
00:49:38
on it makes you slightly wired to be
00:49:39
around when you're not doing that you're
00:49:41
more relaxed i'm probably just calmer a
00:49:43
bit more relaxed and then that gets a
00:49:44
bit boring and i want to get back in the
00:49:46
game again because in that in that gap
00:49:48
between one job and the next that you've
00:49:50
had many of those those gaps what's
00:49:52
going on in your life and how are you
00:49:53
not because it must be very easy for you
00:49:56
to just to rush into something else the
00:49:57
next day yeah but the gap between you
00:49:59
leaving good morning britain i always
00:50:00
advise people
00:50:01
when they lose a big job take your time
00:50:04
just go and clear your head
00:50:06
you'll get offered loads of things but
00:50:07
don't react to it let the dust settle
00:50:10
you know i left good morning britain it
00:50:12
was a massive global firestorm uh and i
00:50:15
just took my time i had loads of people
00:50:16
offering me stuff every day
00:50:18
all sorts of jobs from around the world
00:50:20
could have taken any one of them
00:50:21
uh but actually i thought i'm gonna take
00:50:23
my time just chill
00:50:25
watch some football watch some cricket
00:50:26
see some friends
00:50:28
uh get fit you know unfortunately then
00:50:30
got covered and that was the end of the
00:50:31
fitness camp over a few months but the
00:50:34
the principle is clear your head you get
00:50:36
these moments a few times in your life
00:50:38
where you get a chance to reset
00:50:40
recalibrate clear your head and then
00:50:42
work out what you really want to do next
00:50:44
because it won't be the same thing three
00:50:46
or four months down the line as it feels
00:50:47
in the moment most people's tendencies
00:50:50
when they leave a big job in dramatic
00:50:51
circumstances i've got to do the same
00:50:53
thing somewhere else
00:50:54
prove my point i don't feel i need to
00:50:56
prove anything to anybody you know i was
00:50:58
a talent show judge for six years loved
00:51:00
it number one show on british tv and
00:51:02
american tv for six years great then i
00:51:04
left
00:51:05
i i just couldn't think of any more
00:51:06
things to say about piano playing pigs
00:51:09
it's time to move on you know i did
00:51:11
larry king's job at cnn after him for
00:51:13
nearly four years i did 1200 shows on
00:51:16
prime time cnn around the world people
00:51:18
call it a failure it's like well that's
00:51:20
1200 more than any other british person
00:51:22
i've seen do a prime time talk show in
00:51:24
america so it's all about it's all
00:51:26
relative isn't it about what your
00:51:28
perception of failure is had a great
00:51:30
time in cnn and actually i wanted to
00:51:32
come home i then did breakfast tv which
00:51:34
i never thought i'd ever want to do or
00:51:35
even enjoy i loved it and we absolutely
00:51:38
crushed it we took the ratings from a 14
00:51:41
share to 36 share they've now gone back
00:51:43
to 18. so people could do the maths you
00:51:46
know i think it was a massive success
00:51:48
and yeah i still meet some people go uh
00:51:50
yeah all went wrong for you didn't i
00:51:51
said not really no no it was a brilliant
00:51:53
success good morning britain uh we
00:51:55
became the number one
00:51:57
breakfast show in the country on my last
00:51:59
day
00:52:00
i left on a point of principle and the
00:52:02
principle was i'm entitled to my opinion
00:52:05
you may not like it i'm entitled to my
00:52:07
opinion and in each case where i've had
00:52:09
a career-ending sort of moment it's
00:52:12
really been where the bosses have lost
00:52:14
their bottle with me
00:52:16
so i need i've now gravitated back to my
00:52:18
first big boss in the media rupert
00:52:20
murdoch who's got balls of steel
00:52:23
and he's not going to take a phone call
00:52:24
from meghan markle demanding my head on
00:52:26
a plane
00:52:27
i had a few words to say about one of my
00:52:29
sponsors on this podcast as we all know
00:52:31
energy independence and living a little
00:52:33
greener has never been more important
00:52:35
for a better future it's a journey i've
00:52:37
been on over the last couple of years
00:52:39
that i've shared with you sporadically
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ever since i sold my range over sport
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and bought an electric bicycle and
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there's a lot of people out there that
00:52:46
listen to this podcast that are looking
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it's their home their car their vehicles
00:52:54
whatever it might be so when a good
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friend of mine at a company called my
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energy called jordan told me she was
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interested in sponsoring this podcast i
00:53:02
jumped at the opportunity so for those
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of you that don't know my energy are a
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is to increase the usage of green energy
00:53:11
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00:53:14
time and money when it comes to making
00:53:15
sustainable switches in our lives so if
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this resonates with you and you're the
00:53:18
type of person that's been looking or
00:53:20
thinking about going on your own
00:53:21
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meghan myenergy.com
00:53:28
right not going to go into the issues of
00:53:29
that i'm really not personally that
00:53:31
interested in it but what i was i didn't
00:53:32
want to ask you as i saw when you spoke
00:53:34
oxford they you were talking about
00:53:36
jeremy clarkson getting in a fist fight
00:53:38
with him yeah going down the pub making
00:53:40
up after and there you said i do like to
00:53:42
fall out with someone in the makeup
00:53:43
again yeah
00:53:45
what would it take for you and meghan
00:53:47
markle
00:53:48
to make up
00:53:50
she could do she did an interview like
00:53:52
this with me be very interesting
00:53:54
you know it's like meghan markle to me
00:53:57
has lost all sense of reality about life
00:54:01
she needs to sit with someone like me
00:54:03
not an oprah winfrey enabling interview
00:54:07
fueling your victimhood she needs
00:54:09
someone to give her some perspective i
00:54:10
talk to her about perspective
00:54:12
where i say you know you are you aware
00:54:14
that when you preach to us about climate
00:54:16
change and the environment and carbon
00:54:18
footprint from elton john's private
00:54:20
plane
00:54:21
it doesn't sit very well are you aware
00:54:23
that when you tweet as they did on the
00:54:26
day of her half a million dollar baby
00:54:27
shower in new york with all her
00:54:29
celebrity friends
00:54:31
when you tweet from your twitter account
00:54:33
about poverty it doesn't sit very well
00:54:35
are you aware that when you preach about
00:54:37
equality from your 11 million california
00:54:40
mansion it doesn't sit very well are you
00:54:42
aware that when you rip our beloved
00:54:45
prince away from the bosom of his family
00:54:47
and take him to america and woke him
00:54:49
into submission it doesn't sit very well
00:54:52
with the british people are you aware
00:54:53
that when you make
00:54:55
very serious allegations of racism and
00:54:58
callous disregard for suicidal thoughts
00:55:01
you actually have to produce some
00:55:02
evidence to support it otherwise
00:55:04
everyone at the palace and the royal
00:55:06
family gets smeared by association with
00:55:09
those comments is she aware of any of
00:55:11
those things i don't know but i'd love
00:55:13
to ask those questions she didn't get
00:55:15
asked them by oprah oprah's went what
00:55:19
what what repeatedly
00:55:22
just believed everything she said we now
00:55:23
know at least 17 statements that meghan
00:55:25
markle made in that interview were false
00:55:29
so am i still supposed to believe her
00:55:32
is it a job-ending moment if i don't
00:55:34
believe her so i think she's a piece of
00:55:36
work
00:55:37
i think she i was one of many people
00:55:40
that she used along her
00:55:42
her path up the slippery ladder that's
00:55:44
fine i don't care he met her once
00:55:47
but the way she treated me on a very
00:55:48
small level is not dissimilar the way
00:55:50
she disowned her father the guy that
00:55:53
brought her up on his own for six seven
00:55:54
years
00:55:55
you know he got disowned he lived 70
00:55:58
miles away she never sees him he's ever
00:56:00
met his son-in-law i miss crazy stuff
00:56:03
right she had one member of her entire
00:56:05
family at the wedding
00:56:06
where her family should have been on
00:56:08
either side was oprah winfrey and george
00:56:10
clooney do me a favor
00:56:13
so i see right through it people still
00:56:17
want to believe her that's fine people
00:56:19
love meghan markle think what's happened
00:56:21
to harry is great that's fine too i just
00:56:23
don't agree
00:56:24
and i'm afraid you have to respect my
00:56:26
right to have that opinion um i'm
00:56:29
getting about as bored with it as you
00:56:30
are to be honest with you yeah so i
00:56:32
don't want to be defined by meghan
00:56:33
markle even though she was personally
00:56:36
responsible for me losing a job that i i
00:56:38
loved
00:56:39
you know she was the one who wrote to
00:56:41
the boss of itv
00:56:42
on the monday night that led to me
00:56:44
leaving the next day
00:56:45
um
00:56:46
talking about being we're both women and
00:56:48
we're both mothers you've got to get rid
00:56:50
of him do people think that's right
00:56:53
is it right that uh
00:56:55
that a
00:56:56
person like meghan markle from the
00:56:58
california mansion should leave her a
00:57:00
british television broadcaster out of a
00:57:04
job he's enjoying that viewers are
00:57:05
enjoying him doing in that way i don't
00:57:07
think so is it right that my right to
00:57:10
free speech was so impinged that i had
00:57:12
to leave a job if i didn't apologize for
00:57:14
disbelieving someone who said false
00:57:17
things i don't think so i thought the
00:57:19
whole thing was ridiculous as did ofcom
00:57:21
the government regulated months later
00:57:23
who ruled in my favor so i thought the
00:57:26
whole thing frankly was preposterous but
00:57:29
in answer to your original question
00:57:31
let's do an interview megan let me put
00:57:33
all these questions to you and answer
00:57:35
some difficult questions
00:57:37
because i don't wish them harm i don't
00:57:39
wish them to be unhappy but i hate what
00:57:42
they've done between them to the royal
00:57:44
family and the monarchy i think it's
00:57:46
been incredibly damaging do you ever do
00:57:49
you ever get concerned that on a real
00:57:51
human level that some of the words you
00:57:53
say
00:57:54
say for megan or sam smith or on good
00:57:56
morning britain or even around i know is
00:57:59
it tessa who was the front cover of the
00:58:01
magazine yeah the the cosmo covergirl
00:58:03
cover do you ever has it ever crossed
00:58:05
your mind that the words or tweets might
00:58:07
actually
00:58:08
hurt someone do you think it's crossed
00:58:11
did you well has it across meghan
00:58:12
markle's mind
00:58:14
what she did to me you know like on the
00:58:16
suicide megan i didn't cost her a job
00:58:19
you know
00:58:19
she was saying she was suicidal
00:58:22
again i don't want to go back to the
00:58:24
point of mental health but did you ever
00:58:26
like think
00:58:28
is this going to
00:58:29
hurt this person on it she she said that
00:58:32
two people at the palace when she told
00:58:34
them she had suicidal thoughts said she
00:58:36
couldn't get treatment
00:58:38
because it would be damaging to the
00:58:39
brand yeah i don't believe that and no
00:58:42
evidence has been brought forward to
00:58:44
support it those are extremely
00:58:46
incendiary allegations in my view
00:58:49
weaponizing mental health and suicide
00:58:51
to portray yourself as a victim if
00:58:54
meghan markle has proof
00:58:56
that two senior members of the royal
00:58:57
household refused to let her get help
00:59:01
for suicidal thoughts i want to know who
00:59:04
they were
00:59:05
when they said it and they shouldn't
00:59:07
have those jobs
00:59:08
but we are now
00:59:10
a year and a bit later
00:59:12
no evidence similarly with her racism
00:59:14
claims one of them we knew immediately
00:59:16
was untrue it's completely untrue that
00:59:18
her son
00:59:19
was prevented from being a prince
00:59:21
because of his skin color demonstrably
00:59:23
untrue
00:59:24
factually wrong and the other claim was
00:59:26
that a member of the royal family
00:59:28
expressed concern about archie's skin
00:59:31
color who was it and what did they say
00:59:33
and what was the context in which they
00:59:35
said it because the damage that she
00:59:37
calls by calling the royal family a
00:59:39
bunch of racists is incalculable as we
00:59:41
saw on the recent tour of the caribbean
00:59:43
with william and kate so i don't think
00:59:45
it's i don't think it's harsh
00:59:48
to want some evidence to support such
00:59:50
incendiary claims and when it comes to
00:59:53
do i use tough language yes sometimes i
00:59:56
think i do
00:59:57
but i don't regret doing that because i
00:59:58
think they've been using pretty
01:00:00
despicable language themselves have you
01:00:02
ever regretted anything you've said in
01:00:03
terms of sometimes you think oh i mean
01:00:06
sometimes no i encourage all my kids to
01:00:07
be free thinkers and sometimes they'll
01:00:10
be on me you know like dad you went too
01:00:12
far you shouldn't say that and we'll
01:00:14
have a spirited debate about it and
01:00:15
sometimes they they change my mind about
01:00:17
stuff tell me one example i knew that
01:00:20
i tried to think it has happened
01:00:22
it has happened i mean they'll be saying
01:00:23
that my middle son stanley is an actor
01:00:25
and photographer
01:00:27
he loves your podcast he's my favorite
01:00:29
son yeah exactly he's like oh he's on
01:00:31
mine all right i have all my sons of the
01:00:33
same and my daughter um
01:00:35
but he would say now that's talking
01:00:37
about meghan markle yeah just don't
01:00:38
bother don't and he's right there comes
01:00:41
a point what's the point the problem is
01:00:43
they make themselves
01:00:44
newsworthy all the time my job is to
01:00:46
talk about the news and obviously have a
01:00:48
vested interest in
01:00:50
the mark called debacle because it cost
01:00:52
me my job so i still feel that i have a
01:00:54
sort of involvement in that in that
01:00:56
story but he would certainly be saying
01:00:57
that move on to other stuff
01:01:00
you know just do something else in this
01:01:02
interview that's more interesting than
01:01:04
megan bloody markle and he's right
01:01:07
actually
01:01:08
so that would be an example i've had
01:01:09
that conversation with him and my other
01:01:11
sons but we argue we have we have a
01:01:13
what's up group me and my sons if people
01:01:15
read that or they laugh because they
01:01:17
hammer me my kids about all sorts of
01:01:19
stuff sometimes we agree a lot of the
01:01:21
time we don't agree and we have
01:01:23
really vociferous arguments but then we
01:01:25
all go out there and have fun together
01:01:27
and that's the way it should be i want
01:01:29
my kids to be independent-minded i want
01:01:32
them to challenge me i want to challenge
01:01:34
them and sometimes it gets really heated
01:01:36
you know as a dad when you're leading at
01:01:38
such a crusade as i'm sure you'd call it
01:01:41
um about free thinking and free speech
01:01:43
and these kinds of things
01:01:44
surely
01:01:46
there's some kind of consequence for
01:01:48
your kids right because you're put not i
01:01:50
mean fame
01:01:51
in and of itself creates a consequence
01:01:53
for you they get picked on because
01:01:54
they're my dad but i always say to them
01:01:56
you also get lots of benefits because
01:01:57
you're my sons right and my children all
01:02:00
of you right we go and have a we have a
01:02:02
wonderful time right we get treated like
01:02:04
royalty in restaurants we you know we
01:02:07
have lovely holidays we have a lovely
01:02:08
place in beverly hills they come to all
01:02:10
this is because
01:02:11
of
01:02:12
my
01:02:13
fame for one of a better word and
01:02:15
success as amid the failings
01:02:18
and i say you got to take life in
01:02:20
totality there'll be some annoying bits
01:02:22
of being my
01:02:24
children and there'll be some very good
01:02:26
benefits of being my children you know i
01:02:28
got cristiano ronaldo when i interviewed
01:02:30
him to do a uh video to my sons naming
01:02:34
them all right they were like oh my god
01:02:37
but they wouldn't get that if i wasn't
01:02:39
who i am so they have a wonderful moment
01:02:41
and then they might get trolls as in one
01:02:44
case happen making death threats to my
01:02:46
oldest son on his instagram and i did
01:02:49
take that to the police because why
01:02:50
should my sons be exposed to death
01:02:52
threats from some disgusting troll and
01:02:55
it's interesting with the process it's
01:02:56
been over a year now and it still hasn't
01:02:58
come to court it was a clear and
01:03:00
demonstrable death threat specific
01:03:03
to my son and me and to his mum my
01:03:05
ex-wife and it's like how can this be
01:03:07
allowed to happen and we're still a year
01:03:09
a year and a half later and we're still
01:03:11
no action against the perpetrator i'm
01:03:13
hoping there will be it's going through
01:03:14
the process but shows you the frailty
01:03:17
and weakness of social media that
01:03:19
someone can make a specific death threat
01:03:22
and nothing gets done for so long so
01:03:25
that's a downside of being
01:03:27
my you know when in the good morning
01:03:29
britain thing blew up all my sons were
01:03:31
being abused on social media in the most
01:03:33
horrific manner by a targeted mob
01:03:36
of people normally who have the be kind
01:03:39
hashtag in their bio
01:03:41
while spewing vile abuse of my kids
01:03:44
simply for being my children they didn't
01:03:46
even agree with me about a lot of it
01:03:50
outside of losing people
01:03:52
when does pierce morgan cry
01:03:56
nafta
01:03:58
i mean really
01:03:59
the last time i cried was my
01:04:00
grandmother's funeral 2013.
01:04:03
before that
01:04:05
i remember welling up at a movie um i
01:04:07
was trying to i think it was it was a
01:04:09
movie that ends in a horrible fashion
01:04:12
with a young son being shot dead i can't
01:04:15
remember what each one it was um
01:04:17
i think it was paul tom hanks maybe
01:04:20
paul newman or something like i can't
01:04:22
remember the movie but i was at the
01:04:24
cinema i was watching it and
01:04:26
it reminded me of my sons
01:04:29
and when the kid gets killed in the kind
01:04:31
of horrible denis montes movie i did
01:04:34
actually well up and i was surprised i
01:04:35
learned normally i don't well up at most
01:04:37
things because i think also as a
01:04:38
newspaper relative for 10 years you get
01:04:40
quite immune to shocking things
01:04:43
even if they're real in your world you
01:04:45
get immune to it you get used to dealing
01:04:47
with you know you've had to
01:04:48
cover stories like the dumb lane
01:04:50
massacre or 911 or
01:04:53
diners death or whatever it may be these
01:04:55
things are huge emotional things for the
01:04:57
country for the world
01:04:59
and over time you learn to be able to
01:05:02
handle that and do your job so you
01:05:04
become quite tough
01:05:06
quite thick-skinned on the outside
01:05:08
doesn't mean you have to feel things
01:05:09
inside i do that's what i'm curious
01:05:10
about because reading through what
01:05:11
you've been through in your career the
01:05:12
ups and the downs i was like if i was
01:05:14
this man i would have had suffered with
01:05:17
anxiety pretty badly i think i don't get
01:05:18
anxiety do you ever get anxious no never
01:05:22
not really no i don't i don't get
01:05:24
nervous i don't get anxious i'm very
01:05:26
self-confident i think i'm pretty
01:05:27
self-aware which i think is really
01:05:29
important
01:05:30
i'm i'm very aware of who i am what i am
01:05:33
how i operate
01:05:35
i'm also aware over time the things that
01:05:37
seem terrible in the moment very rarely
01:05:40
are
01:05:40
everything is survivable apart from
01:05:42
death or
01:05:44
you know some sort of terrible illness
01:05:46
that you can't get rid of um you know
01:05:48
the most frustrated i've probably ever
01:05:49
been was i got long covered uh last year
01:05:52
after i got the
01:05:54
delta varium so i had a week of very
01:05:56
high fever and stuff then got six seven
01:05:58
months of long cove no smell no taste
01:06:02
endless fatigue no energy which for me
01:06:04
was like the worst thing you know i
01:06:06
broke an ankle the summer before and i
01:06:08
didn't mind that too much it was
01:06:09
annoying physically
01:06:10
i couldn't do golf and stuff like that
01:06:12
but i was able to function as myself but
01:06:16
when you lose energy it's a really
01:06:17
interesting thing i i found that really
01:06:20
debilitating and in a way quite
01:06:22
depressing you know over time as the
01:06:24
months went on because no doctor could
01:06:26
tell you what the cure is and i have
01:06:28
great sympathy with all the millions of
01:06:29
people out there with a form of long
01:06:31
covert it's a very brutal virus even if
01:06:34
you've been as i was fully vaccinated it
01:06:36
can cause you a lot of problems
01:06:38
but as i sat there month after month
01:06:40
after month with the energy not coming
01:06:41
back and no taste couldn't drink my
01:06:43
favorite fine wine only drink terrible
01:06:46
wine because the sharp tastes i could
01:06:48
actually just about make out so you're
01:06:50
down to your leapfrown emotion
01:06:52
really awful pinot grigio as opposed to
01:06:54
my normal you know chateau la tour it
01:06:57
was a it was a difficult moment
01:07:00
stop wallowing these are first world
01:07:02
problems and i am wallowing um
01:07:04
but it made me realize that if you've
01:07:06
got good health
01:07:07
you've got
01:07:09
a wealth really
01:07:10
far better than any actual physical
01:07:13
wealth that really if you've got your
01:07:15
health make the most of it i've got a
01:07:17
lot of sympathy for people who have
01:07:18
debilitating illnesses either mental or
01:07:21
physical that's why i always try and
01:07:23
debate about mental health to park the
01:07:25
two things i know people who've got
01:07:27
clinical depression it's an awful thing
01:07:30
and they need constant help and constant
01:07:32
medical attention and treatment and
01:07:34
drugs and so on i've got great sympathy
01:07:36
for people in that position in a way
01:07:37
when i had the long covid it it felt
01:07:40
like i guess this sort of brain fog that
01:07:42
comes with it which anyone who's had it
01:07:44
will know what i'm talking about if you
01:07:45
don't you just wonder what the fuzz is
01:07:47
all about but you get this kind of brain
01:07:49
fog that sits in your head and i'd
01:07:51
imagine that it's on a much worse level
01:07:53
for people with clinical depression i
01:07:54
can kind of understand a bit more now
01:07:56
about what that must feel like but
01:07:58
that's not the same as feeling anxious
01:08:00
about normal life stuff
01:08:02
it's the levels of anxiety completely
01:08:03
out of control so i don't get anxious
01:08:06
about things i don't get nervous about
01:08:08
stuff i get excited
01:08:10
i get that kind of adrenaline
01:08:12
excitement excitement nervous excitement
01:08:15
pierce morgan uncensored tell me then
01:08:17
why how are you finding your excitement
01:08:19
in doing this having had such a long
01:08:22
career what is it about this new show
01:08:24
that's exciting you it's brand new it's
01:08:26
starting from scratch i had lots of
01:08:28
offers to establish shows established
01:08:30
networks around the world and i thought
01:08:31
you know what i like this idea i like
01:08:33
going back to work for rupert murdoch
01:08:35
he's been a great mentor for me in my
01:08:37
life he's 91 i dinner with him here in
01:08:38
la a couple of nights ago and he just
01:08:40
his brain at 91 is just staggering and
01:08:44
his extraordinary drive to always be
01:08:47
thinking of the next thing he's just
01:08:49
been down to spacex and was in so
01:08:51
enthused by what elon musk is doing with
01:08:53
that he never looks back he just only
01:08:56
ever looks forward it's very contagious
01:08:58
and he believes completely in free
01:08:59
speech and it's made him a very
01:09:01
polarizing figure himself as it has with
01:09:03
me but he believes completely in that
01:09:05
and i find that intoxicated so going
01:09:06
back to where it started with the person
01:09:08
who gave me my first really big media
01:09:10
job uh with a global platform so no
01:09:13
one's really tried doing a daily show
01:09:15
that airs in the uk the us and australia
01:09:18
three different continents at the same
01:09:20
time and my gut feeling is the world's a
01:09:23
small place with debena that actually
01:09:26
we've got to a place now where because
01:09:28
of social media
01:09:30
whether you're in sydney london new york
01:09:32
you're all having the same arguments
01:09:34
everyone's talking about the will smith
01:09:36
slap or ukraine and zolensky and putin
01:09:39
or trump whatever it may be it's the
01:09:42
same conversations the same people being
01:09:44
held around the world and i think what
01:09:45
people want to know is not what's
01:09:47
happening because they're seeing that
01:09:48
all the time they're getting an overload
01:09:50
of information they want to know what to
01:09:52
think about it and i'm in the opinion
01:09:54
business i'm going to tell people what i
01:09:56
think about stuff i don't expect you to
01:09:58
agree with me
01:10:00
but i do want to challenge what you may
01:10:01
be thinking yourself i want to be firm
01:10:04
about what i believe about situations
01:10:06
and if you want to persuade me i'm wrong
01:10:08
come on i'm going to have people from
01:10:09
the left from the right i don't want to
01:10:11
be a partisan show i don't park myself
01:10:14
into the right or left at all
01:10:16
i think i'm a voice for common sense i
01:10:18
see it i don't actually think i'm that
01:10:20
controversial in terms of my opinions i
01:10:23
think anyone who read my book knows that
01:10:25
i think i'm pretty much on the side of
01:10:27
the 80 majority in most places but it's
01:10:29
going to be a challenge and it you know
01:10:31
i'm hoping it will work i'll give it
01:10:33
everything i've got and it's a big big
01:10:36
challenge probably the biggest i've ever
01:10:37
had but i find that exciting i love
01:10:40
starting from scratch brand new studio
01:10:42
we built an ealing out of rubble
01:10:44
literally out of concrete slabs we built
01:10:46
this amazing high-tech studio um i've
01:10:49
just been on a global tour to australia
01:10:52
to america and it was so exciting the
01:10:54
energy that i was getting everywhere
01:10:55
about this it's a lot of
01:10:57
support from this massive company to
01:10:59
make it work but ultimately it's the
01:11:00
wayne rescue thing maybe i'll miss
01:11:03
we'll see
01:11:04
but it won't be through lack of trying
01:11:06
and it won't be through lack of
01:11:07
confidence and it won't be through lack
01:11:09
of self-belief that i have that this is
01:11:11
the right show for the right moment
01:11:13
the public wants someone to cancel
01:11:15
cancel culture and because of what
01:11:17
happened with good morning britain i
01:11:19
became for better or for worse
01:11:22
a very public defender of free speech
01:11:24
and the right to have an opinion and
01:11:26
that will be the core of my show and
01:11:28
we've got to get back to that i think
01:11:30
it's a war
01:11:32
and i think cancer culture is a virus as
01:11:34
deadly over time as a coronavirus it
01:11:37
really is the damage it can do to
01:11:39
society i think is extremely serious and
01:11:43
it's getting worse not better and i want
01:11:45
to cancel it and what could be a better
01:11:47
legacy than the man
01:11:49
who canceled cancer culture
01:11:52
pierce thank you um you know as you can
01:11:55
tell you know there's much we agree on
01:11:56
there's some things we don't agree on as
01:11:58
well i followed trump not because i
01:11:59
agree with everything he says but
01:12:01
because i don't want to be trapped in an
01:12:02
echo chamber of people that are just
01:12:03
telling me things that i already believe
01:12:05
and there's this quote i read one day
01:12:06
which really resonated with me which is
01:12:08
if your friends have the same opinions
01:12:10
of you they're probably not your
01:12:11
opinions yeah but i would say my own
01:12:12
kids are like that yeah they don't agree
01:12:14
with a lot of the things they agree with
01:12:16
a lot of things as well but they also
01:12:19
understand the perils of this culture
01:12:21
that we're going down this slippery path
01:12:24
and they understand actually how
01:12:26
important this debate is
01:12:28
to get back to where we used to be with
01:12:30
debate it is we have a closing tradition
01:12:32
on this podcast always where the
01:12:33
previous guest writes a question for the
01:12:34
next question ah they don't know who
01:12:36
they're writing it for okay and you
01:12:37
won't either but um the question that's
01:12:40
been written for you is
01:12:45
okay interesting so i don't ever get to
01:12:46
read it tony jack reads it slope in the
01:12:48
book what advice would you give to your
01:12:51
five-year-old
01:12:53
self
01:12:55
just live exactly the dream you're
01:12:57
currently dreaming
01:13:00
good bad and ugly warts and all
01:13:03
find something you're passionate about
01:13:04
and at five i was passionate about news
01:13:07
i don't know why i can't explain it
01:13:10
but i was
01:13:12
and so i pursued a path of wanting to be
01:13:15
in the news
01:13:16
business
01:13:17
and it's been the greatest
01:13:19
journey
01:13:20
i could ever have imagined
01:13:22
good and bad
01:13:24
i wouldn't change any of it nothing so
01:13:26
my advice to five-year-old peers would
01:13:28
be yep go for it
01:13:32
there you have it thank you pierce thank
01:13:33
you really enjoyed it appreciate it
01:13:36
[Music]
01:13:43
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