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have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly no I think it'll be fun all Sprouse from Disney Channels The
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Sweet Life is acting Cody Riverdale Big Daddy friends you're my hero thank you sweet pea were you pushed into acting I
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would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old single mom two twin boys put food on the table so the choice
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never really existed you guys are big stars now yeah
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my mother was living vicariously through the success of her children a person that grapples with mental illness drug
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abuse but primarily narcissism a wicked narcissism
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but that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said
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that she was unfit the court had to step in your relationship with acting and the
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entertainment industry it's been a journey I loved being on stage I didn't like the [ __ ] that came with it this
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industry encourages the worst qualities of you selfishness greed you know
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authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged trades how do you feel about that you're given these lessons in
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your life so that you can triumph over them and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to
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carve out who you are I've got two pictures here then what are the words unsaid to this individual
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[Music] I'd probably kick his ass
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before we get into this episode just wanted to say thank you first and foremost for being part of this community
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um the team here at the diver Co is now almost 30 people and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and
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you um leave comments and you like the videos that this Show's been able to grow and it's the greatest honor of my
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life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask them questions that I'm pondering over or
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worrying about in my life but this is just the beginning for the day of this year we've got big big plans to scale
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this show and to every corner of the world and to to diversify Our Guest selection and that's enabled by you by a
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simple thing that you guys do which is to watch so if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help
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us continue to do what we do it's just to hit the Subscribe button if you like this show if you like what we do here if
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you watch these episodes please just hit that subscribe button means the world let's get on with it
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[Music]
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code yes okay much of what I do here is I'm especially at the start of these conversations is I'm trying to
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understand somebody you know I get to see the Finish Line I get to see their achievements the behaviors their personality during my research and I'm
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always trying you know this is ultimately why this podcast came to be on one hand in the name you hear the Diary of a CEO and it was really me
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trying to show that there's this other side of these people including myself there's this other side that we don't often talk about and on the other hand
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just from a very personal perspective I've come to learn I'm so interested in like human beings why they do what they
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do and what causes them to do what they do at the very core of it um what do I need to know about you when
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if we Zoom back to your earliest years to understand the most influential things moments influences that caused
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you to be the complex inspiring individual you are today hmm
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I mean I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast with you at this time in my life because for the last year and a half
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I've really been thinking about questions like this what what is it that that still compels me uh into certain
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professional Pursuits or artistic Pursuits now um I think when I was younger it was uh
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it was definitely a financial pressure there were kind of two kinds of kids uh working kids really there was the kids
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that were doing it to put food on the table for Mommy and Daddy and then like the thespian children you know like like
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Mommy I want to go into acting and they would show up and it would be this huge
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gap between philosophies um between like yeah man it's a job and like no this is a this is a craft this
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is you know this is an art uh and those kids kind of showed up around 14 and for me I think
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I had trained to kind of workaholism since I was a child uh in order to one
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feel valued by my environment uh both immediate family and audience in
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very many cases that has stuck with me a work ethic that has stuck with me now to this day like I I do not feel good when
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I am not working and I think a lot of people can say that uh and that's something I've been trying to unpack
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over the over the last year and a half is what would happen if I just simply stepped away for good and enjoyed my
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life which is really the purpose of why we're all here um would I be content with sitting down
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and fishing and growing my own vegetables and you know living sustainably or would I get so
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disenfranchised and bored that I would have to take back to the Arts in some way or another and I think I think the
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pressure of my upbringing really compelled me to continue doing what I am today I cannot live without the Arts I
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mean I I cannot live without performance or expression in some kind because it's
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truly all I know and have known since I was eight months old since you were eight months old yeah you
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hold the record for being the guest on this show that started working the earliest tell me tell me
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Well to be fair I don't know if we can call it work I don't I don't believe I cued into Consciousness until about like
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10 years ago um when you're a baby you have that kind of lantern Consciousness where only you
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know whatever exists is only in your immediate purview and then as you age you know when you start to become less
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present you're like wow I'm an adult and I feel like [ __ ] all the time um
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so I don't know about if I I perceived it as work but it certainly infused within me a kind of work ethic as I have
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aged um but yeah it established a relationship with work
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it did I mean it started for me financially uh single mom two twin boys put food on the
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table she is still able to be a mother while we can still pursue a sort of uh
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Improvement of our lifestyle and and very many ways she was living vicariously through the success of her
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children but I think uh it's certainly developed a relationship to
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uh professionalism much earlier than almost anyone else I know will you will you use the word pushed
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earlier were you pushed into acting in your view well I didn't you know I would
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hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old I don't even think I would I knew you know I was on screen I
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don't remember much of like the early early the diaper commercials and things like that so the choice never really
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existed I was there that's it how do you feel about that
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I think gratefulness and ungratefulness can exist simultaneously and I I am
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tremendously grateful of the financial stability I have acquired now as a 30
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year old and being able to say yeah I'm okay now
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um I think in many ways I traded sort of the lantern consciousness of Youth and
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sort of the Carefree presentedness of Youth for financial stability that I would come to appreciate as an older man
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but um I don't regret too much
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I don't I I think if I were to sit here and talk about regretting my my
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childhood within the industry I think that would be silly it toughened the hell out of both my brother and I and
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many kids that go through that same thing um but I'm grateful I'm grateful for the
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financial stability of it yeah and I also am grateful to have done it in a time where you could get your Gladwell
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10 000 hours in anonymously you know if you did a crappy direct DVD movie Just
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for kicks I'm looking at you for anyone who knows this uh if you did your crappy soccer movie it would go to the back of Blockbuster
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and no one would see it now with social media I mean there's no way that you can
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that you can cut your teeth in silence anymore everyone sees your portfolio globally and you're expected to put it
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on display I find it you know I I feel quite afraid for young actors now who
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have to hone their craft over time but do it to a global audience that sucks
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you've got a you've got a twin brother yes um 15 minutes older than you yes as he always likes to yes help people in my
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face your parents you mentioned single mother I am as I read through your story I saw
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a ton of similarities between the way you described your relationship with your with your mother and the way that I
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often describe the relationship still to this day with my mother can you tell me about both your your mother and your
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father and the journey you kind of went on I know at five years old roughly they divorced sure I I don't remember the
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exact timeline of divorce um but I remember only having one memory
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of them being together uh when I was very very young and then from that point on my father was in Switzerland and my
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mother was in LA he would eventually move out to LA in order to try and repair the family
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uh but my mother was um still is uh the kind of tortured
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artist type she struggled with uh in very many ways her place in the world
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she she I think she found a tremendous amount of self-identity through motherhood and
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tried to turn it into a profitable business at the same time which for
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identical twin boys going into acting is sort of economic loophole through labor laws that can be incredibly profitable
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um so that's what she did and as I've thought about it it seemed like to me it
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made a lot of financial sense to her to put us into acting it made I think it's satisfied some sort of narcissism that
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she probably had in order to be recognized as this sort of artistic success uh she was a wonderful painter so she
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always wanted sort of artistic legitimacy and validation But as time went on
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uh I think the entertainment industry just
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kind of broke her you know this this this industry in very many ways
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it encourages the worst qualities of you
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as a person um narcissism
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selfishness greed a lot of these things that we have come to know is practically cardinal
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sins um it's one of those things that uh encouraged a kind of selfishness that
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was uh directly opposed to the very fundamental idea of motherhood
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and As I Grew Older in my case the court had to step in and Rend my brother and I
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towards our father who's an incredible guy um but that selfishness is something
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that the legal system also observed and uh said that she was unfit
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and I think as I've aged and I've looked back on a lot of the circumstances of
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that entire environment I see a person that grapples with
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mental illness drug abuse but primarily narcissism
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a wicked narcissism the inability to to perceive anything outside your own
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perspective would probably be the biggest sickness I see and uh
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that just doesn't work with me and the mother that just doesn't work with being in a family in general
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you know when when it rains it rains on everyone's roofs
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that's how it goes it takes a village man and selfishness
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that is encouraged very much like I said from the industry just doesn't really work
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it doesn't really work for being a mother it's easy to look at this that situation
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objectively and go okay just don't speak to them but this is your mother yeah that's something I've dealt with a lot
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too that's my question which is like how do you how have you tried to separate the two there's so many people listening to
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this right now who have a member of their family that is a toxic influence
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in whatever way and they struggle with this idea that it's a big one yeah right like because they're blood I have to
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persist with the relationship I have to tolerate it whereas if this was someone who was I just met on the street or in
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school I would [ __ ] I would I would chop up later straight away right have you dealt with with the duality of
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both it being blood but also being unacceptable Behavior yeah it's a great question
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um I don't think you ever fully reconcile it I think it's the difference between
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this like kind of immortal abstract connection to someone this thing that we
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call love this this energy not to sound to California you know but this this
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this sort of a mortal connection between a mother and a child or a father and a
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son or or whatever it is um and how do you distinguish that
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uh from anyone else who you would immediately cut off and I think for me I I've recently you
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know I've recently arrived at the philosophy that almost everything is is some sort
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of lesson that we must take and I think lessons like this when it comes to
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parents when it comes to people who are supposed to be these sort of um
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Immortal almost god-like figures in in your life especially during your youth
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like that is the greatest lesson for your Humanity that you can acquire you know
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the distinction between love and care and abandonment and pain as you grow uh
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I really I wouldn't call myself a religious man but I I do believe that everyone is put
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here in your life to have these interactions with you for some kind of reason and I know that sounds like fadedness which can be you know we'll
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leave that for another podcast but um I think it's uh
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I think it's a lesson that you have to learn and it's all in a way reflecting
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back and carving you into the person that you're supposed to be I also think it tests your patience and your love
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and the people that really persist and continuously try and find the love after all the pain consistently we arrive to
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the the care and the connection and the love even though you've been you know
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deeply wounded by the ones who are supposed to be at your Round Table those are the strongest individuals in my
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opinion you know if you can if you can consistently on the other come to the other side of that conversation and go
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I will still choose to care I will still choose to love um
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that speaks a lot about you at some point you have to put your love for yourself of course fast it's the old
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oxygen mask analogy your journey with with your mother you're very young you don't really know what's going on sure
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you're acting you're doing these things at some point in your adolescence or Beyond you figure out that this is not
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normal behavior this is not acceptable behavior for a mother and a son sure
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when was that I mean I guess when Social Services came
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knocking it's usually when it happens um I don't know I would go over to my father's house because the court gave
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primary custody to my mother and this is one I don't know too much about the UK
00:16:22
legal system in this regard but the United States legal system is incredibly biased towards uh towards the mother in
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cases of divorce and custody and in this case it certainly should have been my father taking custody
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um and this is obviously a case-by-case basis but um I would go into you know we'd we'd
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spend some time with my father like once a week and we wouldn't be able to eat
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candy and do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted he would you know make us go and exercise and play outside and
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there was a regiment there was a healthy regimen it wasn't you know we weren't a lot we we weren't
00:17:01
allowed to do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted and I think at that point I was going at when you're a child you go man
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this is no fun but as you as you sort of pan out for a moment and you go wow I'm
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actually feeling a lot better here I'm present here I'm I'm happy here even though I don't get to eat ice cream all
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the time you know so am I making sense with this please um Social Services don't get called for eating ice cream no
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no they don't and I won't go too much into that because I don't want to make this whole podcast about another young man in LA with mommy issues yeah uh but
00:17:31
I do think that that the circumstances of my life are are at
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least my childhood are much like the sort of cliche narrative that you hear a lot about child stars but
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um I don't talk about it too much because I don't ever want to be perceived as a victim of it I am not and
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have never been and never will be a victim of any circumstance that I am in I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder I
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don't like to act like I am my wounds and to repeatedly be reminded of my
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wounds um what happened in my youth happened and
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carved me and forged me into the person I am today for better and for us right for better for purely better even
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through pain we trade trauma for wisdom that's what
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we do as humans when we go through heavy experiences it deepens our eyes you know
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I I I think for me the reason I haven't really talked about it too much in the past is because one
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the media has a way of sensationalizing scars and victimhood like this is a person's character and in very many ways
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it is but they don't talk about the strength that is the byproduct of
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pain they talk about the pain which is useless like it it all it does is
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perpetuate the past which I think is is or a pain that existed in the past
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rather than going my god look how well he's done for himself even though he's had such a tough tough upbringing you
00:19:06
know I think Oprah is another wonderful example of this where her story her
00:19:12
origin tale so to speak is is very well known um and look at what a beautiful example
00:19:19
of success that she's become over time you know that to me is the most beautiful way that I think media can
00:19:25
sensationalize a story of pain but I find that it's oftentimes not and I also
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feel like we're in a climate right now that really encourages people to talk about
00:19:39
the victimization of pain more than they do about the triumph over it the
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strength that comes as a byproduct of that pain and so that's mainly why I don't talk about it too much because I
00:19:50
don't want to be that guy you know I don't want to be that guy that's like are we all the time no man you you're
00:19:57
given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use use the traits
00:20:05
that you've acquired from those lessons over time to to carve out who you are one of the things I've mulled over from
00:20:12
speaking to people on this podcast is about this idea that that that trauma you describe if it ever goes away you
00:20:19
know should it ask yourself that it's a good question it probably I have to say it probably
00:20:25
shouldn't because as you I said earlier on it's a lesson that you learned so that you could deal with your
00:20:31
environmental circumstance and just like the lesson I learned of not putting my hand into fire I'm not going to unlearn
00:20:36
that at 30. no there's no therapy that could that could help me worse and unfortunately I'm speaking for myself
00:20:43
here I don't know about you but I'm a dumbass that needs to learn by his own mistakes I mean I can watch my father go
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hey man yeah you need to drink water at this Watering Hole but I you know you
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can't drag me there and make me drink I have to make mistakes in order to learn from my mistakes and a lot of my friends
00:21:00
are very similar but um I don't think I don't think those lessons should ever go away like I said
00:21:07
about my my validation thing sticking sticking around with me sure what stuck around with you
00:21:14
um the workaholism is definitely stuck with me uh I need validation a lot
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I think that's a pretty common uh uh thing for most artists just to
00:21:25
have um but I am the byproduct of the byproduct of
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um moments of incredible narcissism and moments of severe self-loathing and
00:21:39
right in the middle is when I do my best work um but a lot of that
00:21:47
operation and the fluctuation between those two things uh is determined by
00:21:53
people going goddamn you're good what if they say what if they invalidate what if they say God damn you suck I spiral of
00:22:01
course but I don't let it hang on me I try not to let it hang on me what does a spiral look like
00:22:08
um man maybe I should just run away and and not do this and you know get some chickens and raise you know get some
00:22:14
eggs and live off the grid and and whatever it is um
00:22:20
it also manifestes the inability to sort of say your desires out loud for fear of of
00:22:27
looking like a fool um I think La does that too because I think
00:22:32
vulnerability is just something that we don't really encourage here in Los Angeles why is that
00:22:38
um because it's not cool but it's not cool uh
00:22:43
uh to angelino's because someone that is cool hasn't said it like that before do
00:22:49
you know what I'm saying it's a lot of imposter syndrome in Los Angeles and so you know authenticity and vulnerability
00:22:55
are not really encouraged trades um before you arrived I was saying to my
00:23:00
team I was like I watch all these interviews with people like yourself from La that's
00:23:06
a Stars actors and I go no one's ever asked them an interesting question it seems but genuinely that's how before
00:23:12
you walked in this is what I was saying because Lucy Hale was the same she goes oh this is the first time I've had a
00:23:17
deep conversation and I'm like why and then I mimicked what interviewers are like he was like hey uh where did you get your shoes yeah
00:23:25
yeah yeah of course who the [ __ ] wants to talk about that does people actually you
00:23:31
know yeah yeah yeah I mean because it's safe yeah right because it's a safe thing you know this is why I love the
00:23:36
podcast space is because the podcast space creates new ones yeah nuance and
00:23:42
and context a viewed it gives you the whole context right there which is something that a lot of people you know
00:23:48
in interview settings or otherwise are completely devoid of when you're selling a publication when you're selling an
00:23:54
interview with someone on paper you don't really get the context oh well the context was it was pouring rain outside
00:24:00
for the last blah blah blah and you arrive to the studio and you got to sit down and have a tad and we talked about having similar birthdays and we talked
00:24:07
about Botswana beforehand blah blah blah blah blah you know you get the context you get the connection which I think is gorgeous
00:24:14
and I think it also creates a really beautiful way to discover the honest humanity and opinion of people
00:24:19
because we're you know entertainment media it's Sensational we're only going to sell the
00:24:25
worst person in the world and the best person in the world we're not going to sell the humans in between
00:24:31
you know and and most of us fit as soon as a kind of gray morality that doesn't really you know we're not not all of us
00:24:38
are these [ __ ] outliers that are like these really firm radical [ __ ] people
00:24:43
that are that are saying these radicalized things in order to preach to the to the sensationalism of the
00:24:49
internet most of us have these kind of moderate places that we sit um so I think the podcast space is
00:24:55
[ __ ] awesome for that man you really get to to sit and connect to people and have a conversation and for people that
00:25:01
are interested they [ __ ] listen it's great a quick word from one of our sponsors I've got a tip for all of you
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production virtual events your journey with your relationship with acting sure and the entertainment
00:26:04
industry yeah it's been a journey oh for sure man can you give me kind of like a timeline
00:26:09
of that journey and how you've felt through the process with your relationship with acting absolutely
00:26:16
um started at eight months old when you say that it still baffles my mind diaper commercials things like that
00:26:22
dick commercials um worked on a sitcom for a bit
00:26:28
uh still wasn't really fully conscious uh we were still doing the baby acting thing I did a sitcom called Grace Under
00:26:34
Fire a couple other little TV spots here and there identical twins switching places blah blah blah then we booked big
00:26:40
daddy with Adam Sandler when we were around six um and that was like the big thing at
00:26:46
the time this point about the use of twins in acting yeah some people might not understand the context oh okay you'd
00:26:51
like me to explain yeah children can only work a certain amount of hours which is a very strange thing to say out
00:26:57
loud um in the button factory in the coal mines we can only work for two hours a
00:27:02
day uh no but we can only work for a certain amount of hours um and so if you have two twins that
00:27:10
look identical to each other that people can't perceive as anything other than the same character you double the amount
00:27:15
of hours you can work which is an incredible economic loophole for a lot of young actors because to
00:27:23
clean the jackpot yeah yeah of course of course it was great work the system baby but the problem is
00:27:31
when you start at least from that philosophy and you go
00:27:37
into an art you know um we've commodified almost all of the Arts that exist but when you enter into
00:27:44
a form of expression in a professionalized or or work Dynamic it's
00:27:50
hard to see that as a pursuit of passion so my journey through acting over time
00:27:56
has been one of trying to balance art and Commerce in a way one for the money too for the show sort of thing where
00:28:04
I need to be reminded consistently to myself that I love this thing do you
00:28:10
know what I'm saying making my money becoming financially stable getting financially stable taking
00:28:17
jobs that are uh that aren't paying as much but doing cool projects and making yourself feel
00:28:23
more in love with the discipline and I think you know
00:28:28
this is this is a particular approach that has to come from a certain socioeconomic background if you are
00:28:36
you know this nepo baby conversation has been huge out here in La I don't know how how big it's been out in the UK but
00:28:43
um if you come from a financially stable background and you can see it with any actor that has a really Stellar resume
00:28:49
where you're like God you've picked great movie after great movie after great movie you've been a part of all these really cool projects well they
00:28:56
probably had a lot of financial stability because those projects pay you [ __ ] nothing
00:29:01
right so if you have the sort of Patron that is allowing your freedom of expression to take these artistic
00:29:08
projects and reinvigorate this passion for you even in the face of
00:29:13
commodification of an expression then you can uh you can have a really Stellar
00:29:18
career but if you also have to make money alongside it you're probably not going to take the super cool jobs you
00:29:24
gotta you know you gotta sell drinkable yogurt uh for a little bit in order to go to college you know what I mean yeah
00:29:31
yeah this is the balance between art and commerce that a lot of people don't understand in almost every other art at
00:29:36
least in photography this is a great example no one looks at someone doing a commercial gig and then
00:29:42
going back to the editorial world and going why would they do that commercial again yeah it's a little strange but in
00:29:48
acting they do there's a huge division between those two people massive
00:29:53
Big Daddy yeah that's where we left off wasn't it yes big daddy so got Big Daddy it's six
00:29:59
um Adam was just incredible we shot that movie for far longer than it needed to be shot in New York City
00:30:06
um it's my first time going to New York uh and then that was a whirlwind
00:30:12
were you cognizant at this point of your feelings with acting that your relationship with the industry no it was
00:30:18
super present okay which is good which is what I think we're all trying to get back to is this sort of lantern
00:30:24
consciousness of of Youth in terms of acting this is a state of play because no one should go into acting and be like
00:30:30
I'm going to act no that's I don't think that's yeah I don't think that's right
00:30:36
um but I was still very present at the time and then big daddy came out and
00:30:42
alongside it came this Whirlwind of opinion and conversation and fame and
00:30:48
and all this sort of stuff which would then which was very polarizing but would lead me into I
00:30:55
worked on um a couple other direct DVD movies at the time for some cash money
00:31:01
and then uh did friends I was a recurring role on
00:31:07
friends and then uh Dylan and I would end up booking
00:31:13
uh The Suite Life on Disney which of course was another huge lifesaver um and your relationship with acting at
00:31:20
this point is what you're very commercial okay are you enjoying it um not really because now it had become
00:31:27
a thing that was taking me away from playing in the cul-de-sac with the friends you know what I mean so
00:31:33
I loved school like I loved going to school I loved playing with my friends and and all that sort of thing so at the
00:31:39
time I couldn't see it as anything other than that but that's you know that's what a child does um
00:31:44
and then we did The Sweet Life and then I actually really did not mind not going to school so we were homeschooled from
00:31:51
The Suite Life lawnmowers and then every every conversation because I kept a lot of my super close friends you're 12 and
00:31:57
15 at this point uh this would yeah so we did that from 12 to 18. 12 to 18. oh
00:32:04
in the Sweet Sweet Life yes would be The Suite Life on Deck to spin off um and when we got to high school age
00:32:10
all of my friends would tell me these stories from high school American public high school that was just like God damn
00:32:15
you lived through that [ __ ] I don't want to be part of that at all this sounds horrible and so then I was quite
00:32:21
thankful to not be doing that um and then I went to college you picked up photography around this
00:32:26
time I did around 18. I actually went to London and the first time I went to London I said I should give myself a
00:32:33
camera and document my brother a nice little journey through London I found a really curious quote that you said about
00:32:38
the reason why you chose photography sure um relating to it allowed you to escape
00:32:44
your depression yeah yeah I think a lot of people um have sort of
00:32:51
discussed that one quote um I I think I was certainly
00:32:57
I had gone through a huge breakup after college right at the end of college
00:33:05
um and re and picked my camera up again um and you put a lot of my emotional
00:33:13
state into just shooting hobbyism which is a real wonderful uh thing to do when
00:33:21
you were feeling sad is pick up a hobby dive into hobbyism um
00:33:26
and so I pushed myself into a lot of that uh and in very many ways it allowed time
00:33:33
to pass more quickly and for me to heal more effectively yeah but I also did it because I wanted to
00:33:39
express my vision in very many ways when you're an actor you are the byproduct of the writing the
00:33:46
direction and the editing and a lot of people assume you have much more creative agency over a project than you
00:33:51
do but I don't find that to be the case when you're a commercial employee actor you know when when you were working on
00:33:57
Commercial projects in very many ways there's they're controlling the image of you that people are seeing um and they control the takes and you're
00:34:04
as bound to the project uh as the writing is good or bad and the directors are changing week to week so it's a
00:34:11
difficult relationship to expression and self-identity and I I think at the
00:34:16
time I was really looking for a way to tell people hey this is what I can do if I'm given
00:34:21
creative freedom um I don't think I've achieved that
00:34:27
no your work is amazing as I was saying she wasn't just blowing smoke up your ass I I went on your website I thought oh we're moving into a new house me my
00:34:33
girlfriend I thought this would be brilliant if we come out I'll just send you something yeah I hate I hate anything I I do after
00:34:41
two weeks so I'll send you some of the newer stuff textbook creative yeah when's the moment in your life where you
00:34:48
both loved and then the moment where you hated acting the most I came back to it
00:34:53
yeah you know I used College yeah I was at real fork in the road and I um
00:34:59
made a promise to someone that I would return to acting but I never anticipated I would and I was reminded that I love
00:35:05
performance which is I love to perform in front of people
00:35:10
um and I love the presentedness of a performance like when you wake up at the end of the take and you go man I don't I barely remember what I was even doing
00:35:16
right there that was I just felt that um I love that I love performing for the crew I love
00:35:23
I loved being on stage I didn't like the [ __ ] that came with it
00:35:29
because when I was young you know acting was like the grilled chicken of the dish it was like it was
00:35:35
the biggest part of the course and the side salad was like the red carpet stuff and and whatever the [ __ ] it is and now
00:35:42
that social media has made it so that the whole thing's just a grilled chicken salad now I mean like like the salad is
00:35:49
almost a bigger part of your success than the act the act of performance and
00:35:55
I think in very many ways you know your celebrity profile has been become far too intermingled into your
00:36:02
work as a professional and all of us within the industry are recoiling and trying to figure out a way to to
00:36:08
you know figure out how to deal with that I I was I have to be honest I had a good
00:36:14
laugh at your other Instagram account camera duels yeah that's polarized a lot
00:36:19
of people but but I at the same time I thought I underst I read about your sort of social anxiety that came with came along with the fame
00:36:26
and then I heard you'd created this Instagram account of taking people taking pictures of people taking pictures of you covertly without asking
00:36:33
permission and then I thought to myself this is a great idea but it's going to
00:36:38
encourage it yeah of course it did yeah I know it totally did which I I don't mind as much
00:36:45
that it encourages people um because all it's done is just further reinforce why I've done it yeah which is
00:36:52
like hey people are not going to care about anything other than the uh then
00:36:58
bragging about a place they've been or a person they've seen you know how do you feel about that
00:37:04
uh I don't mind it because all of us kind of just do it we're taught to do that sort of thing
00:37:11
um but I don't know if I'd necessarily make those people my friends how does how does it feel to be on the receiving
00:37:17
end of it every day I understand it did you always
00:37:23
um yeah actually I did did you ever struggle with it um of course I
00:37:28
struggled with it for sure I'm asking this for myself yeah yeah because well I think look man we're always searching
00:37:34
for um a much deeper emotional connection to
00:37:41
another human being you know it would I would much rather have someone be like like this podcast
00:37:46
is a great example tell me about what it was like growing up in your position and if anyone ever asked me that I would be
00:37:51
an open book yeah you truly could come up to me and ask me any question on the
00:37:56
street and I would probably hold a tattoo with you um but people want to show others yeah
00:38:04
but I don't um don't do that uh
00:38:09
but I think people want to want to show what they're up to right now and that's totally fine and natural
00:38:15
um well I don't know if it's natural but uh we're you know we're conditioned to do that but I think you know
00:38:22
whether it's you know you're doing it ironically or authentically or
00:38:28
you're truly excited or you admire someone or you want to just prove to other people
00:38:34
I think most people have to understand that there is probably a greater connection to be made
00:38:40
that exists there's a choice that you make when when you're asking for a very surface level shallow interaction with
00:38:46
someone um and that the alternative did exist where you could probably deepen your
00:38:51
relationship to to um an individual that you've wanted to
00:38:57
talk to uh so I don't really mind when people do it it just means that person's not going to
00:39:03
be a cool connection to me personally like I'm not gonna remember that connection in my life when I'm telling
00:39:09
stories and things whereas you know I did a movie called five feet apart which um which dealt a
00:39:15
lot with cystic fibrosis and I've had a lot of um people who live with cystic fibrosis
00:39:21
come up to me and talk to me about cystic fibrosis and and talk to me about that film and those are Connections in
00:39:27
my opinion that have lasted with me I remember almost every single conversation I've had with something
00:39:33
like that because it's not a uh yeah let's take a pic it is hey man
00:39:38
um I want to let you know that I go through this something that you were trying to portray in this and and you
00:39:45
know this it affected me like this and and it it's it's a discussion that enriches both people
00:39:52
um and even if you don't like the individual you know let's say you see someone that you really don't like the
00:39:58
work of or you don't like the Persona of going up and asking them a question is
00:40:04
probably going to yield so much more to you than the alternative but we want to show everything on Instagram and social
00:40:11
media and Tick Tock and whatever it is because we want you know we're all creatures of
00:40:16
validation we want to see the likes and and the whatever the [ __ ] it is and I'm I've done it too I'm not saying I
00:40:22
haven't done it you know I've I've taken a picture or tried to take a picture of John C Reilly who I really admire you
00:40:28
know I there's a lot of people that I I deeply admire but if I were given the choice between asking them a compelling
00:40:34
question and taking a photo I would probably choose the compelling question for sure that social anxiety if you will
00:40:39
really know what that's like people without Fame will often experience social anxiety for their own reasons as
00:40:44
well but when you say social anxiety can you give me a picture of what that feels like in reality oh sure uh pain and
00:40:52
image of it you're very good at painting images with your words by the way oh thank you that's very you're enjoyable to listen
00:40:58
to you know what my social anxiety feels a lot like sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit
00:41:05
too hot like the sauna right before you have to get out you know what I mean it's it's like this warm sort of
00:41:10
blanketing feeling but it's not warm it's [ __ ] hot it's but it's a blanket over me for sure and it it it's this
00:41:18
kind of for me anxiety is really present even though I'm thinking about future
00:41:24
possibility or past um past actions that I've made it is a
00:41:30
consistent um I'm living in this I'm living in this I'm living in this I'm living in this
00:41:36
I'm living in this and so in that way it's almost blanketed over me um
00:41:41
and what I'll do for that anxiety is is I will activate my five senses
00:41:47
what do I see what do I smell what can I hear Can I taste anything
00:41:54
what do I feel on my skin and it immediately grounds me in the present these things are grounding mechanisms
00:41:59
that I really enjoy when I start to feel social anxiety have you learned that somewhere
00:42:04
yeah I think I did where'd you where did you learn that um well I did uh I went to therapy I've had I've gone to
00:42:12
therapy off and on my whole life um but he was a wonderful man up in Vancouver that taught me a sort of
00:42:18
grounding techniques and he's right but I mean it does you know it can be a therapist it can be a
00:42:24
father figure it can be anyone that teaches you essentially the root of it is be present grounded yeah it's it's
00:42:31
it's you know all the Eastern philosophers and the Buddhists were trying to tell you to do this [ __ ] the
00:42:36
whole time meditate ground yourself in the present you know grounding yourself in the present is the greatest enemy of
00:42:44
anxiety what other tools have you learned from therapy I feel like in a I can learn a lot from you without
00:42:50
having to pay the therapist sure well that's flattering um
00:42:57
yeah I try not to talk too much about mental health just in general um
00:43:02
because everyone has an incredibly personal relationship to it and I feel like there's a lot of armchair experts
00:43:08
on the internet right now acting like you know or diagnosing people or doing stuff like that which I find Inc that is
00:43:16
so atrocious I can't believe people even do that um and I think the conversation about around mental health unless it's being
00:43:23
done by truly a trained professional is probably not the greatest thing to listen to so with that disclaimer
00:43:30
I will say um whenever I'm feeling heightened emotionally I will take a break from
00:43:36
whatever I'm doing I will truly walk away from whatever I am doing I will tell if it is an argument with someone I will go
00:43:42
hey right now I'm feeling some heightened emotion if you don't mind let's pick up
00:43:48
this conversation about 20 minutes give yourself time you know I I try to approach everything
00:43:55
with a kind of logos that that you know allows me to think more clearly and
00:44:01
calmly about what I do um which can be off-putting to some people
00:44:07
uh because not a lot of people like being met uh
00:44:13
with logos when they're heightened emotionally or being met with Solutions when they're just trying to vent it's
00:44:20
one of the first things you learn when you're in a serious relationship especially as a guy
00:44:25
for sure because most a lot of a lot of us are solution-based people you know um
00:44:30
but I'll take a break that's the that's honestly the most helpful thing I've done I'll also try and remind myself of
00:44:37
you know grounding myself in the senses or I will uh I'll remind myself that
00:44:43
one you're not the only person that's ever gone through anxiety or will ever go through anxiety and two
00:44:50
um the problem as you perceive it the the vastness of the problem is you perceive it is not the way other people
00:44:55
perceive it what about your relationship with boundaries what please explain what so you know you're the very first story
00:45:02
you told about being eight months old eight months old you don't have boundaries of course yeah so they are obviously easily exploited as you grow
00:45:09
older sometimes when those boundaries weren't firm when they were young and you were maybe people pleasing or you
00:45:15
were seeking validation that can have a sort of cascading effect into adulthood what's your relationship been like with
00:45:21
saying no and protecting boundaries whether it's professionally personally in relationships well that's a great
00:45:27
question and one I'm far more qualified to answer now than I was even two years
00:45:32
three years ago um I can honest to God say that I did not love myself enough as a younger man
00:45:39
especially my mid to late 20s for sure did not love myself enough did not respect my own boundaries what did that
00:45:45
look like um that looked like rolling over in the face of a lot of adversity especially
00:45:50
when it came to romantic relationships um I was a people pleaser I I was a
00:45:57
people pleaser professionally I was a people pleaser uh romantically I was practically a [ __ ] nurse to whoever
00:46:05
needed my help in very many ways likely as a byproduct of my upbringing but
00:46:11
um what that meant was oftentimes crossing my own boundaries as an attempt to make others feel better
00:46:16
and as I've gotten older I've become more okay with uh turning people off
00:46:25
which is all right you know you're going to polarize individuals you are going to get along
00:46:32
with certain people and not get along with other people that's totally okay
00:46:38
and I think as I've aged I've tried to um
00:46:43
I've tried to remind myself yeah that was an awkward interaction that was a bad interaction with someone but you're gonna have those man that's okay
00:46:51
move on and as I've Loved myself now and thankfully I'm I you know I'm in a
00:46:56
relationship right now with a woman who's so emotionally understanding and and just the best and you know it helps
00:47:03
when others can be like yeah dude encourage you in the right direction and be like yeah it's okay like we're like
00:47:10
because I will I know myself I will fall back on like are you all right like is
00:47:15
everything okay like like trying to control a situation through making sure everyone is happy you know but it's not
00:47:22
a you know it's not a [ __ ] video game you can't get like the best solution where everyone is okay sometimes you're
00:47:28
gonna really have to polarize some people and that's all right my only boundaries I would say uh when it comes
00:47:35
to when it comes to my professional career or otherwise
00:47:42
um I really don't like condescension so like if I feel condescension in any
00:47:48
sort of way if I see other people being condescending to others if if if I can
00:47:53
sense a kind of pretentiousness or condescension that's usually something that will either take me to leave the room or confront another person about it
00:48:00
and be like hey why'd you why'd you do that what is um that relationship you described what is love taught you about
00:48:05
yourself ah so much man I've had the pleasure of being in love three
00:48:12
times the pleasure um I've had
00:48:17
I'd say three big relationships in my life three girlfriends in my life
00:48:24
um I mean my first one when I was like a kid but that was just kind of puppy love stuff and then I had one in college
00:48:31
um I dated a co-star on Riverdale um and now I'm I'm in love again and
00:48:39
every time it has been pretty distinct I think maybe the first two college and my
00:48:48
last girlfriend were far more similar because of me uh because I was still approaching it
00:48:53
the same way um and then I did a lot of self work and I fell in love again
00:49:00
um thankfully and it has taught me a lot like I mentioned I was a people pleaser
00:49:05
I was deathly afraid of being perceived as anything other than perfect for a
00:49:11
long time and so I would roll over quite a bit in
00:49:17
order to make sure that as long as they were happy that's what love is you know as a sort of consistent
00:49:24
happiness um and I was also actively suppressing my emotions and like not really
00:49:30
discussing what I actually felt about a situation because I was afraid of retaliation in very many ways
00:49:36
um I was afraid where did that come from oh I mean certainly my youth certainly my youth your youth I think growing up
00:49:44
in you know building an entire life and business model off of the validation of
00:49:49
other people certainly made me um open to it but I also think the first relationship I ever had with with a
00:49:57
female figure which is the mother figure in everyone's life was an incredibly tenuous and fractured relationship with
00:50:05
with um with a a tortured individual which made
00:50:10
me go I can fix things don't worry I got it you know no you're all good it's okay
00:50:18
um and I brought that in I brought that in a lot were you trying to make her happy oh of course yeah I think so when I was
00:50:26
younger especially but even though I wasn't an adult you know I didn't even know yeah yeah of course you don't speak
00:50:33
your pretty mother anymore I don't I don't but um
00:50:39
she put me on this path and there was once a woman who was very clear-headed
00:50:44
and who had a beautiful vision of the kind of people my brother
00:50:51
and I could be and in very many ways I honor the dream she once had so that if she
00:50:58
were Lucid enough um and came back and saw what I had become
00:51:06
she would go man I was right and in that way it would validate the entire life of
00:51:11
pain and Trauma that she has gone through are you are you sad about where your relationship is with her of course everyone is everyone is sad about
00:51:20
something that could I mean unless you're a sociopath um
00:51:25
when something beautiful and and lovely goes rotten it can be a very sad thing
00:51:32
um and it does make me sad but it's also life and that's the lesson
00:51:38
that I've had to learn from it is that you know that sadness is okay it means I'm human it means I loved something
00:51:44
outside of myself in a way that was so beautiful and so
00:51:49
boundless that it that it makes me feel one of the strongest and most Eternal of human emotions which is sadness like
00:51:57
real sadness and that's okay do you do you does part of you like hold out and this is kind of speaking from my
00:52:02
experience as well sure does part of you kind of hold out for things to just get better or go
00:52:10
completely wrong get better
00:52:15
outcome go completely wrong um I mean I'm sure you've reconciled this
00:52:21
as well but there's a part of you that goes oh what if this is my last communication with an individual you
00:52:26
know of course you have how would that make me feel as a consequence thereof how would it make you feel
00:52:32
if this was you've never got a speech your mother again you know and going back to the previous question
00:52:37
I tried for very very many years to try and to try and do everything I could
00:52:43
um but at some point or another it comes down to the individual which is the
00:52:49
hardest part like you want someone to change or do something and this also goes to romance
00:52:55
this goes to friendships this goes to to blood to whatever it is you can really yearn for someone to do the right thing
00:53:02
and the hardest part is even if you set up the entire environment for them to do so
00:53:07
uh unless they choose it for themselves it's just not gonna happen and so I used
00:53:14
to blame myself quite a bit for not just my relationship to blood but you know I
00:53:19
used to blame myself for all of the relationships in my life going wrong until I realized that yeah in almost
00:53:25
every relationship it takes two to tango friendships romance blood some the other
00:53:30
person has to be a participant in the dance just as much as you are participating in the dance in order for
00:53:36
the outcome to be the one that you guys both desire when you say that you used to blame yourself for relationships in
00:53:41
your life going wrong yeah does that mean that you originally blamed yourself for the relationship with either your mother or father or the relationship
00:53:47
between you and your mother going wrong um I did because unfortunately as a consequence of being a working child
00:53:53
you're forced into an authority position when you're quite small right which is now you're the breadwinner of a family
00:54:01
over the adults so in very many ways you take this very strange like uh role of
00:54:07
authority and and positioning when it comes to uh the subsistence of of a
00:54:14
nuclear family which is not a role a child should be put in so when it does
00:54:20
go wrong as a natural byproduct of the authority that you feel as a consequence of you know your professional life you
00:54:27
can adopt some of the blame on yourself which I will say I do not do anymore was that are you talking about the divorce
00:54:33
there are you talking about relationship with your mother yeah just everything work mother whatever it is super
00:54:38
interesting yeah yeah I mean dude it's this is also like
00:54:45
it should be said that the working child a a child that has
00:54:50
worked since they were eight months old you have to understand that that is a not to sound like a [ __ ] special snowflake as an identical twin you know
00:54:57
what I mean which is the greatest contradiction but that is a life
00:55:05
an upbringing that is very very very very rare very rare not there's only a
00:55:13
handful of people that have that really weird um path through the world most of them
00:55:20
are in the United States and most of them you know the sensationalism of their of their upbringing is talked
00:55:27
about all over um so that's um that comes with a lot of
00:55:32
[ __ ] and it affects to tie us all back I'm getting us back good thank God for that
00:55:37
because I couldn't see how we'd make it yeah um that affects how you navigate everything in your life your
00:55:43
relationships which is what we were talking about friendships blood all that stuff and my relationships were deeply
00:55:50
affected by my upbringing of course my friendships were affected by my upbringing my relationship to my family was affected by my upbringing but at
00:55:57
some point or another you have to go yeah I'm on the right path and even if it's not I'll try and make it the right
00:56:03
path and I'll grow from them what makes you alive then like what brings what brings your heart to life these days
00:56:09
passionate conversation really for sure without a doubt how many of them have you had lots publicly
00:56:14
not publicly No in fact I've only done one other podcast um and these kind of public
00:56:21
conversations are quite rare which is why I love this medium so much but I but I've I've thankfully I've surrounded
00:56:27
myself with individuals that are capable of all having these conversations and for really diving into to what it is
00:56:33
that makes us all feel alive um and I think truthfully I think I think Seekers of
00:56:40
this kind of conversation find each other it's weird they really do and you
00:56:46
can see it in others eyes like you can see people that love this [ __ ] in their eyes and so I thankful I I mean I host
00:56:53
dinner parties and stuff and try and get as many people together to have these sort of conversations and it can be a little bit awkward for the first one
00:56:59
what are we talking about um but that's incredibly enriching to me
00:57:04
okay so you've just you've just he teed this up so perfectly perfect hit it everything you've just described
00:57:11
the type of person that likes deep conversations is very much the type of people that listen to The Diary of a CEO
00:57:16
and we have a closing tradition on this podcast where guests write a question in the diary for the next guest they never get to see who they're writing it for so
00:57:22
because we know that the type of person that listens to this is by by clear um linkage terrible use of words the
00:57:30
type of person that likes deep conversations we wanted to take all of the questions out of this diary that have been written into them and allow
00:57:36
people to play at dinner parties the day of SEO which is they can ask their
00:57:41
friends deep conversations that have been written into this book you also get to see who wrote the the question for the
00:57:47
first time I want to play with you yeah please right now ask me some questions I am I took some cards out there's about
00:57:53
100 cards in total but I took the ones that I thought were the biggest stitches oh man that's a great idea I love that so what I'm gonna do I will also answer
00:57:59
one yeah but I'm gonna lay them out here you pick one that you want to answer whichever one feels right for you then
00:58:05
I'll pick one as well and I'll answer it we'll go through the all of them so we'll pick one at a time
00:58:11
one can I pick one so so you answer that one
00:58:17
I answer this one yeah this is by Tim Grover this is what is your dark side
00:58:22
um I think the Dark Side of myself is definitely
00:58:28
the narcissistic side of myself that can come out when I am feeling super proud
00:58:33
of something that I do and I will oftentimes try to Humble that it'll get me seeking decadence it'll get me
00:58:41
seeking external stimulation from my environment and yearning for that which is you know what every stoic philosopher
00:58:47
would be like dude shut up um and I I really relate to that I think
00:58:53
my worst side is the side that is seeking validation from other people
00:58:58
um rather than understanding and placing myself in my environment and going wow I'm so privileged to have what I have
00:59:04
and where I'm at and I believe that yeah okay mine is from wilster who is an
00:59:12
expert on the topic of status who wrote a book about it and which is kind of about validation wanting to be famous for sure who is the person you'd most
00:59:19
like to say sorry to but haven't I told you I picked these questions to stitch you up but I decided to answer
00:59:26
them when I laid them out so my would actually be my mother yeah because she didn't get an education so
00:59:33
um I've often framed her in my story as being I don't know like she she's been the
00:59:38
center point of difficult moments in my life but she is also like the 95 of my story with her is just this woman that
00:59:44
absolutely turquoise absolutely loves me and my whole life her whole life is me and and you know like growing up she did
00:59:50
everything for us she she raised us five days a week she can't read or write herself growing up she raised these four
00:59:55
kids that I think are all pretty good decent kids um so I'd say that I'd probably say
01:00:00
sorry to her for not spending enough time in conversation talking about her Brilliance and the fact that I am the
01:00:06
reason she's the reason I'm an entrepreneur great answer man great answer
01:00:13
I don't know I don't know
01:00:19
Rochelle Humes cool if you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently what
01:00:25
day would it be and why
01:00:32
that's difficult I try not to live doing that too much
01:00:38
where I feel like I need to change something but um
01:00:45
so I am sober I've been sober for about a year and some change and it's been a wonderful
01:00:52
thing in my life um but I have
01:00:58
thankfully had the self-awareness to apologize to some people in my life in the past in a similar way that the card
01:01:04
that you just pulled um and in order to protect another person's
01:01:10
feelings I did not tell them that I was going to be apologizing to an individual
01:01:16
um because I was afraid of the consequences of that face-to-face meeting I know this is a little
01:01:22
confusing but if I could turn back and do it differently I would be so
01:01:28
transparent about that meeting over coffee to the affected individuals in
01:01:34
order to be like hey I'm letting you know this is happening I know that this is blah blah blah but I just want to let
01:01:40
you know with full transparency this is what it is blah blah blah um
01:01:46
but otherwise I try not to live like that it's unclear you apologize to someone and there was there was a
01:01:51
repercussion of that apology which you wish you'd kind of foresaw and addressed
01:01:57
yeah okay exactly right cool exactly right because sometimes meeting with other people makes others uncomfortable
01:02:03
like they're you know especially especially as you grow older some people
01:02:09
are like why'd you meet with that individual but I think for me I would have just been super super transparent about it I'd be like
01:02:15
hey this is happening blah blah um and that's been a consequence of the work I've done as I've cleaned my life
01:02:21
up so I look back on that one day and I go hey man the work you did should have
01:02:26
told you that you could have been fully transparent with that even if it made other people uncomfortable and I probably would have done that different
01:02:32
but otherwise I try not I really try not to think like that because they're lessons right
01:02:38
because it's all lessons because I made that mistake for a reason you know and now I'll never do it again and the fact
01:02:44
that I even said that as an answer means I've already learned my lesson you'd rather the lesson was in the past yeah
01:02:50
of course of course and in the future at some point it's a place okay here we go
01:02:55
tell me something about yourself that nobody knows and would be surprised to know about you [ __ ] you know let's uh
01:03:02
hear about your internet history bro Marissa Pierre um
01:03:07
so I had a guest on this podcast called called Steve Peters who's just this
01:03:12
incredible like psychiatric psychiatric therapist etc etc
01:03:18
um after he left I contacted him and spoke to him about something I was dealing
01:03:24
with this predicament in my mind and I was bouncing between two outcomes and it's the first time in my entire life
01:03:31
and I've spoken to so many therapists that I've ever spoken to a therapist privately to try and resolve something and I say that because I say that for
01:03:38
one honestly just for one reason which is I've spent so long on this podcast talking to therapists including Marissa
01:03:43
pear who wrote this question and Marissa's Marissa Pierre but I've never spoken about the fact that I too have
01:03:50
spoken to a therapist about personal challenges that I've faced and Marissa Pierre is just one of the best ever and
01:03:56
so is um Professor Steve Peters do you feel embarrassed I think I did I think I did I think I think I always have I
01:04:03
think it's funny because this is therapy for me and I lay it all out you know I yeah the diversity was
01:04:09
Diary of a CO started as like my therapy it was like me writing things in this diary then sharing with them with the
01:04:14
world but I despite my guests telling me about the profundity of
01:04:21
speaking to someone else as you have today as you did in Canada I believe I've never done it myself until that moment
01:04:28
where I spoke to Steven said this is what I'm dealing with like how do I navigate through this and it's incredible
01:04:34
I I think it'll because you can't your brain can't think yourself out of the [ __ ] no I I also
01:04:41
think a good therapist is like you know your first house like like it arrives to
01:04:47
you precisely when it's supposed to you know it because ultimately what we're all seeking at least in therapy with the
01:04:55
help of a trained professional but it's a human connection just to another person you know we all want our Goodwill Hunting you know we want to we want to
01:05:02
sit down and have someone who has a a deeply enticing personal connection to you and goes I hear you man I hear you
01:05:09
you're okay like have you thought about it this way and so I do find a lot of these kind of conversations can be
01:05:15
inching close to that and in that way I'll say I do think there are a ton of
01:05:21
different forms of therapy you know of self-soothing of methods I find a
01:05:27
tremendous therapy by going into the Wilderness as an example you know I I
01:05:32
find that a really healthy thing for me to do to sort of Disconnect and leave
01:05:37
and go into the woods and do all that sort of stuff but I also think the other
01:05:42
stuff is super valuable too and I I don't think there's any shame in talking about it I think that's great I've
01:05:48
thought about it so many times in my life like there's been so many moments in my life I think like 10 where I've seriously considered like I need I need
01:05:55
to go speak to someone else about this because I can't figure this out myself I remember like maybe two three years ago I was there was some like business
01:06:01
um challenge I was facing and it was just like keeping me up all night and I remember going on the internet contacting someone and being like can I
01:06:08
speak to you about this and it's because I'm looking for a trained professional like that can coach me through my
01:06:14
thought processes and what you've described is so interesting to me because you said two things the first thing you said is therapy in essence is
01:06:21
like a pursuit of connection with someone and then the second thing you said is about how nature is therapy
01:06:26
these are all things that humans knew very well in our Natural Life ten thousand years ago man look I studied
01:06:32
archeology and franchise over time because I know that [ __ ] isn't that funny that therapy
01:06:38
is just being more human oh I I also think look we just wanna
01:06:44
we want to be heard man we we look for soul we all look for soul in other people we
01:06:51
want to know that Soul exists we want to justify our soul by looking for soul in other people and when you find people
01:06:56
with soul you want to hang on to people with soul that's what we do you know and I I think when you're
01:07:02
bearing your soul especially in a sort of therapy environment you want someone to to pick it up and go God I see this
01:07:10
thing man yeah I see it I did something like this
01:07:15
so I mean for me it took me a while finding a therapist that was um that was willing to be Hands-On you know
01:07:23
there's this sort of uh hands-off approach to a lot of um you know
01:07:29
mental health work just in general and I I just I can't do that man I need someone like you know in a sort of
01:07:36
similar way to this there's two people sitting down going God man yeah for sure if therapy is is there for connection
01:07:41
then the thing that drives us to therapy must be disconnection a feeling of Distinction of course
01:07:47
when that disconnection can be anything disconnection from nature from people from life from purpose whatever yeah it's it's
01:07:53
you know you become afraid of your own soul being too disconnected
01:07:59
from from everything around you or that or that you're that you feel so entirely alone or unique that that
01:08:07
no one else really understands you is a hard thing so so when you go into therapy as an example and someone goes
01:08:13
yeah dude I hear you you know but then if the if the [ __ ] alarm rings and they go your hours up okay that to me uh
01:08:21
that's this connection that's just connection because then it feels like a monetary exchange I'm like I don't want that all right
01:08:27
okay I'll take this haven't I done two oh yeah that's the other one okay
01:08:32
how could you be more authentically You by Fern cotton is that pronounced correct yeah nailed
01:08:39
it perfect how could I be more authentically you I mean I think stuff more like this I gotta be less afraid of
01:08:45
of people going wow he said what I just don't care anymore I'm like I'm
01:08:52
dude I'm 30. I like I lived a lot of that anxiety [ __ ] in in my 20s and I
01:08:58
truly believe that your 20s are meant to be a petri dish for mistake that
01:09:03
you're supposed to learn lessons from and go into your 30s and be be better at and I and I don't know I think I am
01:09:10
practicing authenticity in a way but I think it's complicated because I don't know
01:09:15
if a life in the in entertainment people actually seek authenticity which is
01:09:21
something I'm dealing with and I think for acting it's also a real dilemma because the more you show an authentic
01:09:28
version of yourself the harder it can be for people to suspend that and see you as a character
01:09:34
um which is something I'm sort of sitting down and having a conversation with myself about um
01:09:40
but I'm not going to control what other people think you know and I think uh
01:09:45
I think I am practicing authenticity in very many ways how could I be more authentically me
01:09:51
um stand on my ground set my boundaries you know recognizing my own bottom line behaviors
01:09:58
before I you know stumble into that [ __ ] um have you ever felt the cost of
01:10:04
authenticity of inauthenticity of inauthenticity yeah yeah what is the cost in your view
01:10:10
exposure if you're exposed to be a fraudster yeah
01:10:16
if you're exposed to be a sort of snake oil salesman that can be quite embarrassing um in inauthenticity can also get you
01:10:22
into a place where you actually don't have the skill set to perform whatever you're trying to perform but I also
01:10:28
think inauthenticity or feelings of inauthenticity are a natural part of of
01:10:34
Courage you're going to doubt yourself a little bit before you go into anything and I I don't know I always find
01:10:41
my most effective uh means of surviving anything is just kind of being thrown into the fire and being like all right
01:10:46
I'm here what are we doing let's go all right here we go [ __ ] no stitch up
01:10:52
James Watt what is the belief that you hold that most people disagree with you on so many in fact yeah that's great man
01:10:59
that's good um the first one I'm gonna say is what's the thing that most people disagree with
01:11:05
me on trying to decide between I'm gonna say I'm gonna say the point about manifestation
01:11:11
um I think this is super controversial because anything that gives centers people on a sense of
01:11:17
personal responsibility is typically not well received like people don't love the concept of personal responsibility
01:11:22
obviously there's lots of nuance to this but I would say that when the way that society and culture and Instagram have
01:11:29
described the process of manifestation is largely [ __ ] um and I think that manifest like
01:11:35
knowing that like the example always give is getting in the current sector Sat Nav is of course important because if I just drove without Direction I'd be
01:11:42
lost but if I don't drive I'm also just sat in my garage with a Sat Nav set all day
01:11:50
um I don't think you can just manifest your your yourself your way there in life I
01:11:55
think luck plays a huge role circumstance plays a huge role where you live if I was still in Botswana there's
01:12:00
not going to be a dire of a CEO interviewing you today right sure maybe if my if if my mum hadn't met my dad so
01:12:06
there's circumstance there's luck there is will there is hard work there is trauma there's conviction and then there
01:12:11
is also a an importance to know the direction you're going in but I think manifestation as an idea is oversold
01:12:17
because it makes life easy and comfortable and it also it obfuscates us
01:12:22
of the responsibility of work and personal responsibility I think it is I think it's
01:12:28
absurd to pursue comfort absurd and anything you do
01:12:34
I think at some point or another when your hands are on the wheel in this car with the sat nav you're gonna have to
01:12:40
[ __ ] drive and if the sat nav goes out um okay man you're still behind the wheel
01:12:46
driving a [ __ ] vehicle you know I I think you also have to really strongly believe
01:12:52
in yourself really strongly believe in yourself because there's a lot of things that people love gatekeeping [ __ ] it's
01:12:58
crazy everyone loves it especially on the internet they love gatekeeping it's like the first thing you're going to
01:13:04
interact with when you jump into something new people are gonna go not that guy
01:13:10
you know what weren't you doing this or uh don't do don't talk about that don't do this people love gatekeeping which is
01:13:16
so funny because it the the idea that we have to be like these incredibly specialized needle fine like kind of
01:13:23
people is ridiculous you know I I try everything go into it boldly but you
01:13:30
gotta believe in your success and you have to take accountability have you struggled with that late that idea of
01:13:36
being labeled as something because well of course you know there's people listening to this now who are like a lawyer or they are sure or whatever
01:13:41
right and they want they have this passion for something else it could be photography like you but they're a
01:13:47
lawyer they're bio says lawyer their LinkedIn says lawyer and the resistance the social resistance but also the
01:13:52
psychological resistance of now that label is creating keeps them
01:13:58
confined in a way that is not fulfilling or conducive with a happier life so
01:14:03
breaking out of those labels when you're a you know a star from such a young age you get your label super early yeah Cole
01:14:09
you are an actor and there are many ways a child star is what I'm called quite often yeah which
01:14:16
okay but dude I mean look anyone that doesn't think outside of terms of labels
01:14:21
it's just useless to me I I gotta be real like anyone that cannot find
01:14:28
a deeper Humanity in whatever um whatever kind of person they're
01:14:33
sitting across at a table is probably a pretty useless person to talk to in my opinion um I think labels can be
01:14:40
difficult and and also helpful in very many ways let's say you're a lawyer yeah man make that money on that on that
01:14:47
label sure make that money on that label and then surround yourself with the people that don't see you as this is my
01:14:53
lawyer friend you know because you don't need that many people you need a round table of people that
01:15:00
are going to be like yeah that's coal cool wow what a Renaissance human that
01:15:05
guy is you know that's what you really want people to say oh man what a good person that person is you know that's
01:15:11
great the label thing can be difficult but I think it's useless to think like that
01:15:18
I I think anyone that goes wow you know this anything outside of human you know is
01:15:25
silly and I know this sounds a bit woo-woo and pretentious and because it does be like don't label me ah
01:15:32
but um I think it's true I I I I don't think thinking in terms of labeling is
01:15:38
useful in the slightest in the slightest and I I would like to think at the end of all of our Lives we we've we've
01:15:45
surrounded ourselves with you know a rich enough body of experience to go yeah man I tried blacksmithing for a
01:15:51
period of time yeah dude I crafted a little necklace well I was a silversmith for about a year and I tried that [ __ ]
01:15:57
out and it went really well um and I think people are going to try and gatekeep you but I I think what I
01:16:03
mean is that you're always gonna have to fight against some sort of label regardless of what it is and if there's
01:16:10
a bouncer at the door gate keeping you from getting inside the club guarantee you that there's a [ __ ] side entrance
01:16:16
guarantee you and you got you gotta fight your way to get there man I I I'm
01:16:21
a firm believer in that and you have told us to recognize the kind of
01:16:28
um restrictions that are being put on you but I think you always got to fight for yourself if you don't fight for yourself legitimately no one else is
01:16:34
going to earlier on you said something to me you said have I ever you said have I ever
01:16:41
sort of hypothetically played out the scenario that that person in my life my mother might not be here and sure
01:16:47
reflecting upon that being the last conversation I'd had with her how would I feel I've got two pictures here
01:16:54
what are the words unsaid to this individual
01:17:02
that's my father and that could be my brother or myself I have no idea what are the words that are
01:17:08
not said to that individual um
01:17:14
you were at the exact place that you were supposed to be right when you were supposed to be there for sure
01:17:22
my father was 27. when he had two identical twin boys
01:17:27
that's big you know I'm 30. I can't imagine having two identical twins I'm sorry to expose
01:17:34
you property immediately got a vasectomy right after he found out he was having two twins I just find that hilarious it's my favorite story about him
01:17:40
um he was an Italy at the time I'd say man what is your hair routine it's looking
01:17:45
great uh he looks like a study this is a sad photo yeah yeah for sure good job pop
01:17:53
um you're at the exact place you need to be right when you were supposed to be there and whatever happens in the following years are all
01:18:00
the lessons that you need to take for the future of your life
01:18:06
but every step of the way you've been exactly where you're supposed to be for sure the words uncertain to this person
01:18:14
it's funny I was thinking about writing that in this journal what would you say to your child itself that's funny
01:18:22
this kid um this is me on the left
01:18:29
Dylan on the right um
01:18:37
I wouldn't want to condition this kid at all I see a kid that's like so present in
01:18:44
this moment and I've had this dilemma because I have some step siblings and I find myself wanting to ask them like hey
01:18:50
you've been thinking about college hey like what are you thinking about in the future
01:18:56
um I think I'd probably just talk to this kid about like hippos or platypus or
01:19:02
some some fun [ __ ] you know Pokemon whatever it was
01:19:07
I don't I don't think it's wise to
01:19:14
put the future or past tense thinking of an adult onto a child and I think it's
01:19:20
your responsibility as an adult who loves a child to encourage that Lantern Consciousness and that presentedness for
01:19:27
as long as you can and as far as you can and anything that
01:19:32
takes them away from that presentedness should be the enemy
01:19:37
of your life in that child's life isn't that what happened to you yeah it is
01:19:45
it is and that was the perfect lesson I needed to know for my eventual children what about Dylan
01:19:50
my brother and I have made it this far and have been as okay as we have become
01:19:58
because we did not feel lonely
01:20:04
we always had each other as a frame of reference to grow up and alongside and I think um I think I'm incredibly
01:20:10
privileged for that and he is too we thankfully got to go through everything we went through alongside
01:20:17
each other and I think that's built him into the exact kind of person he's supposed to be and me as well
01:20:23
and I really am living my life now in a place where I don't look back with regrets or anger or or pain or anything
01:20:31
like that so um I don't know I'd probably kick his ass honestly if I'm thinking about it
01:20:36
now I probably I'd probably smile at myself and then beat the hell out of Dylan
01:20:43
and I'd have reach advantage and stuff too it'd be great I'm just throwing by his legs like
01:20:48
Bowser we have a closing tradition this podcast with the last guest asks a question for the next guest the question that's been
01:20:54
left for you you have one last piece of work to do
01:21:02
what is that piece of work and why if I had children
01:21:07
make sure that they were okay
01:21:12
try and make sure Ensure that whatever I could do is My Last Action would create
01:21:20
more easiness for them um
01:21:25
because life is Gonna Roll Over you regardless you know regardless of how easy you've had it I would try to have
01:21:32
one last thing said or done that helped them in the future you went straight to
01:21:38
Children yeah and if I was a grandfather I would take all of my cash
01:21:46
and convert it into some sort of gold Doubloon and I would bury that [ __ ]
01:21:52
I'm not telling you where but I would send them on the greatest treasure hunt ever I mean really give
01:22:00
them one one thing that they said God Grandpa wasn't saying
01:22:05
but what a story he gave us you know Goonies Style I want I want to be
01:22:11
I want to be the guy that like sends his grandkids I'm like oh grandpa Cole was just insane man but man he was a wacky
01:22:19
guy he found the treasure I wouldn't make it too hard you know but I'd want them to go someplace sounds like a great
01:22:25
movies plot yeah maybe maybe they'll write it who knows grandfather Cole work is interesting though it's a really
01:22:30
interesting question because I hope I'm not working really I don't like I hope I don't see it as
01:22:36
work okay you didn't see photography is work no no I don't see acting like the
01:22:42
stuff I feel really passionate about as as uh as work either have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly
01:22:48
no I think it'll be fun cool thank you yeah a huge honor yeah
01:22:54
and tremendously valuable for for me more than I could probably tell you but meeting people like you that have gone
01:22:59
through unique life experiences and are able to look back introspectively and sort of
01:23:05
um historically and depict that in such a self-aware honest vulnerable way is
01:23:10
the very reason I started doing this and the very reason I continue to do it um so I thank you because it's a real I
01:23:15
feel like you've um I feel like I feel like I owe you something for being I know this is how I
01:23:22
always feel for for all of the lessons I know for the rest of my life get to go on with from your journey and um as a
01:23:28
fan of yours now both your art and your photography I guess are the same thing you're but but just for semantics
01:23:35
um I'm gonna follow I'm gonna continue to follow you with a renewed perspective on on your humility your talent and your
01:23:42
Humanity well thank you and by the way um every conversation like this we trade
01:23:48
just as much for anyone that's empathetic which you seem to be um you trade just as much this is a beauty
01:23:54
you and I were both August 1992 from very different backgrounds and yet we can still sit around a round table
01:24:01
and go man I know the feelings of what you've gone through even though you and
01:24:06
I are very different people yeah and I think that's the beauty of it you know that's the beauty of of
01:24:11
that connection I've been talking about I think empathy is the currency of all this
01:24:17
stuff and you've asked some really wonderful questions and I'm glad that I was able to answer in a way that that
01:24:22
hopefully brought out something but uh thank you again thank you for having me that was really wonderful thank you
01:24:30
[Music] it's now been a healed Drinker for about four years roughly so much so that I
01:24:37
ended up investing in the company um and I play a role on the board of the company but they also very kindly sponsor this podcast and to be honest
01:24:43
I've never said this before but he will believed in this podcast before anybody else the CEO Julian um told me before we even launched the
01:24:50
podcast how successful it would be and that he'll would back it and I absolutely have a huge amount of gratitude for them for that support but
01:24:56
an even greater sense of gratitude for the fact that they've helped me stay nutritionally complete throughout the chaos and hecticness of my tremendously
01:25:03
busy business schedule so if you haven't tried out here which I hope most of you have at least given it a go by now try
01:25:09
it out it's an unbelievable way to try and stay nutritionally on course if you have a hectic busy schedule and let me
01:25:15
know what you think send me a tweet and a DM tag me let me know what you think quick quote from one of our sponsors I
01:25:20
have to say I've been on a bit of a journey with this brand because when I started my business in new territories
01:25:25
when we first moved social chain to the to New York City the first place we went to was wework we moved four of our team
01:25:31
members out to New York City and we built the business from there um I have to say there's something magical about weworks I've spent the
01:25:38
last two or three weeks in LA in a wee work and as you walk in the front door every day it's almost like that sense of
01:25:45
community that sense of magic excitement camaraderie is tangible and you don't
01:25:50
get that when you're working at home you don't get that often when you're sat in your bed on your laptop there's something about getting out and getting
01:25:57
into a wee work that makes me feel a sense of Entrepreneurship and and creativity and building and the way that
01:26:04
we work to design both both in the way that they offer subscriptions so that you can work you know on demand but also
01:26:10
the the flexibility of the contracts means that it's just the perfect place for businesses to scale their companies
01:26:16
and if you haven't checked out where you work and you want to you can go to we.co CEO and there you can get 50 off
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at trial Day At wework Close to You [Music]
01:26:36
thank you [Music]
