00:00:00
I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it was just a really dark time I went out
00:00:05
and I knew I had to make it look like an accident cuz I did not want my kids to think that I had
00:00:18
committed please welcome Jada pinket Smith Jada I knew you as a Hollywood
00:00:24
actress I never knew you were the daughter of two drug addicted parents and a teenage drug dealer yourself on
00:00:30
the streets of Baltimore I really thought I was going to be the next big time female drug dealer I was absolutely
00:00:36
Fearless but getting 2 n mm pointed at you they pointed two guns at you that's a big wakeup call but what happened
00:00:43
somebody set me up and then I had to always have this tough exterior now as
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I'm dismantling my defenses I'm in a really raw place the holy slap what
00:00:55
happened I knew I was going to get blamed but like it was insane you say protection is your love language did you
00:01:01
see that as a Act of love the entanglement conversation we broke up
00:01:07
and then what did you do J my mother my kids they were like how could you do
00:01:12
this do you regret putting that out honestly I've got this wonderful picture that I found oh I know that picture do
00:01:19
you know why this is relevant yeah I lost him back to
00:01:27
back that's the way it is I just want to start this episode with a
00:01:34
message of thanks a thank you to everybody that Tunes in to listen to this podcast by doing so you've enabled
00:01:39
me to live out my dream but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too it's one of the
00:01:45
greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life to get to do this to get to learn from these people to get to have these
00:01:51
conversations to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective trying to solve problems I have in my life so I
00:01:56
feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is can I ask you a favor I can't
00:02:04
tell you how much um you can change the course of this podcast the the course of the guests were able to invite to the
00:02:10
show and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing and that simple thing is hitting
00:02:15
that subscribe button helps this channel more than I could ever explain the guests on this platform are incredible
00:02:21
because so many of you have hit that button and I know when we think about what we want to do together over the
00:02:26
next year on this show a lot of it is going to be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed and that tune into
00:02:31
this show every week so thank you let's keep doing this and I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show for
00:02:37
us as a community and for this [Music]
00:02:45
platform Jada yes I always believe that in order to understand someone you have
00:02:51
to understand their context and having read through the entirety of your book there was this line that stood out to me
00:02:58
which I think might be might summarize the most important
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part of your earliest context which is when I go in search of the origins of My Broken Heart it is the sense of not
00:03:09
being the priority to the two people who gave me life that creates a fracture in
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my feeling of worth yeah why did you write that
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line because it's true you know it's like our parents are like our first
00:03:27
mirrors and so my parents were really young when they had me I mean my mom was 17 right 17 18 she was 17 when she was
00:03:35
pregnant I think she was 18 by the time she had me so youth on top of
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addiction and I just realized you know as I was going through my life in
00:03:48
different therapeutic settings I was like oh wow like the first mirror I
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had was kind of non-existent in a way because
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drugs were my parents' priority you know during my upbringing
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and so I didn't really get the reflection of feeling like a priority to the people
00:04:15
who brought me into the world now thank goodness my grandmother came into the picture you know and she really she was
00:04:22
a a beautiful powerful mirror for me that you know even to my you know it's
00:04:27
still a mirror for me to this day um where I could see myself I could see
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the beauty of myself I could see my gifts and my talents was through her and
00:04:40
what she was reflecting back to me but um I think it's important
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that I think it's important if it's possible for children to
00:04:53
feel that sense of um that sense sense of importance that
00:05:00
sense of priority from their parents I had an air of sort of
00:05:06
loneliness as I read through the pages this kind of lonely young girl who was searching to be recognized and loved and
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to someone to sort of hold her hand and guide her through those early years and other than in your grandmother's
00:05:20
garden with your grandmother it it found like that place of home was never was never really
00:05:28
there yeah yeah I definitely had it with my grandmother now once she
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passed that's when I took to the streets to like figure out
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finding my home finding my tribe finding my power finding my identity finding my
00:05:47
purpose finding my worth yeah your dad mhm Rob
00:05:57
yeah he um he took for a walk one day and explained to you why he couldn't be your
00:06:03
father he did I was seven and
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um he just said he said look I'm a I'm an addict and a criminal and I can't be
00:06:15
your father and I was like now mind you he hadn't really been in my life that
00:06:20
much anyway I didn't really know he wasn't present in my in my life enough for me to even know what it was like to
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have a father but what I did appreciate in that moment was like wow just thank
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you thank you for like being honest now I didn't realize at that time because I
00:06:39
was so young how that would affect my relationships with men ongoing
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you know as an adult woman um but yeah in that moment I was
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just like thank you somebody is like being honest with me I'm not crazy something is absolutely not right here
00:06:56
and he's letting me know what that is is and he's saying hey I'm going to keep my distance you
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know 10 years old 12 13 years old what does Jada think she's going to be when she grows
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up at 10 11 12 13 I I definitely was
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like I wanted to be an artist definitely wanted to be an actress you wanted to be
00:07:24
an actress yeah I did I did I wanted to be an actress I started very young I was
00:07:29
doing theater um I think my first professional gig was like seven years
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old as one of Madame Bon Bon's children in the Nutcracker um and then I was in you know
00:07:44
different theatrical programs in the summertime and what have you and then
00:07:49
the uh when I got the opportunity to join Twigs which prepared you for
00:07:54
Baltimore School for the Arts I joined that after school program so Arts has always been been a big part of my life
00:08:02
do you know why cuz when as I read through those early years of your life it seemed that acting was doing
00:08:08
something the the performance the being on stage the the validation I think it was giving
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you was doing something for you that it might not have done for someone else who hadn't walked the steps You' walked up
00:08:20
until that point the validation but also an outlet it was a real outlet for me where
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I was able to EXP Express certain feelings that I didn't feel like I had the permission to express at
00:08:33
home um and um it was a
00:08:41
huge it was a huge outlet for me in that way I mean to the point that my theater teachers would often
00:08:49
tell me um you know they try to steer me into like more why don't you try more
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comedic roles you know I was always going for the very dramatic very high highly emotional you know uh
00:09:03
roles um and my I just remember my theater teacher always trying to guide
00:09:10
me into diversifying the monologues that I would choose uh for for my pieces to work on
00:09:18
in class I read um read some books I think one of them was called the body holds the score which talks about mhm the role
00:09:25
that acting can play as sort of a therapy yeah and it's so it seems to not be a coincidence that
00:09:33
the amount of actors I've sat here and spoke with who have pretty um
00:09:39
Unthinkable Early Childhood experiences domestic violence in the home Etc that then find acting as an outlet for a form
00:09:45
of escapism almost escaping the identity embodying a different role absolutely
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totally agree totally agree as I read it in your story I was
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like not another one yes another one
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it's classic yeah and I I reflect on some of the words you wrote in the early part of
00:10:06
the book where you're talking about your mother and your father there being
00:10:12
domestic violence in the home at an early age your mother running out of the house dropping you on the floor because
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Rob had punched her I believe your father had punched her yeah the these
00:10:22
are stories I guess you've heard after the fact from your mother
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yeah but I guess you believe those moments leave a mark absolutely I mean my mother talks about
00:10:35
it to this day and we'll choke up she'll you know cry it's like it's it's you
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don't get over things in the sense of like it's forgotten you know you learn to cope with it you heal in a certain
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manner but it still can leave a certain imprint upon you um and even hearing
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those stories are not easy you know even as an adult because she didn't really give me the details until I was
00:11:01
was I mean my kids would dag on their adults before she shared with me the
00:11:07
level of violence that she dealt with with my dad did it help you understand
00:11:12
yourself did it help you connect dots I don't
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know if it helped me understand myself as much as it helped me understand my
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mother and then that helped me understand a lot of how her journey has
00:11:33
imprinted upon me in a certain manner you know so I guess it does if you take
00:11:39
you know through through my mother and her journey helped me understand her journey which has affected me so yeah I
00:11:45
guess you could say that it helped me understand myself more I say that because I sat with um you know Gabel
00:11:50
matate gab gab M I do yeah yes yes he was the he's the person that opened my
00:11:56
eyes to the fact that even the things that occurred when when we are babies yeah we interpret them to mean um
00:12:03
certain things about ourselves and he says babies are incredibly selfish so for example if the parents are arguing
00:12:08
the baby will interpret that is reflection of them MH and I think about the early context that I think I read
00:12:14
about in your story but also that appears in mine and how I interpreted that to mean that I wasn't enough in
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some way yeah um which is a real through line throughout your story yeah for
00:12:26
sure I and I think that probably is probably
00:12:32
more subconscious unconscious than that which the abuse of drugs
00:12:40
and how that reflected to me that I wasn't worthy in a certain manner
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that why is it that this particular substance has more power over you know
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has more attention more power more influence than me
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to the point that your father will tell you I'm relinquishing my parental rights because
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I'd rather be a criminal on a drug addict than try to get my [ __ ] together for
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you is the way I interpreted that and at the same time was like just
00:13:20
thank you for being honest instead of sitting up here pretending like you're doing something different thank
00:13:26
you you know which a lot of people would do Tony was he your he was your mother's
00:13:35
first part partner after Rob no she he was her first husband first husband okay
00:13:42
yeah after Rob and he seemed to be a pretty solid he yeah he was he was
00:13:47
indeed it's this guy comes into your life and plays the role of a father by
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all accounts he seems to do a pretty good job and seems to love on you in a way that is sufficient for a child
00:13:59
but then he too vanishes out of your life makes a
00:14:06
exit makes an acit yeah which I understand you know as an adult now looking back and and looking at the
00:14:14
circumstances you know he did the best that he could he's a man that was trying to get his life together and my mother
00:14:20
was was deep in her addiction addiction to heroin at that
00:14:26
time and so you you can't you can't
00:14:31
negotiate with that it's either you want to get help you know um or you have to
00:14:40
sometimes you have to make clean breaks I know that now as an adult and you
00:14:46
don't always know how to play the middle you know and so I get it what
00:14:53
does that do to you as a young a young woman who's trying to figure out what where safety is it's devastating ating
00:14:59
it's devastating I mean I completely abandoned feeling like I could depend on
00:15:06
anyone which is why I just took to the streets I was like you know what I'm going to figure
00:15:12
out how to make money gain power and create a situation where I can protect
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myself and my mother and make sure just in case she doesn't make it I'mma be
00:15:26
okay you take to the street when you say take to the streets what you mean by that when I would see you
00:15:34
know the high rollers the hustlers I was like oh that's what I want you know I
00:15:40
want to have the Mercedes I want to have big wads of cash in my pocket I want to have
00:15:48
friends around me that will protect me and I want to be able to have
00:15:55
security and stability created by my own hands I don't want to depend on anybody
00:16:00
not only do I not want to depend on anybody I can't depend on anyone and so
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the streets that's where I saw
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security because we didn't have doctors and lawyers you know
00:16:19
to look upon you know like that's the aspiration right because in our
00:16:26
neighborhoods that's what we had we had hustlers right and they had the good life so you
00:16:32
could be a hustler or you could be a Hustler's girlfriend I wasn't trying to be the girl one trying to be a
00:16:38
girlfriend and so I'd look
00:16:45
to to that lifestyle to offer me the security that I didn't
00:16:51
have at home as an opportunity for me to create that security that I didn't have at home
00:17:00
security protection safety these are all words
00:17:06
that appear over and over and over again in your book I know right yeah childhood to
00:17:14
adulthood those are the the most recurring words yep and you you found
00:17:20
that security in part through a lifestyle of drug dealing yourself MH um which again I said to you before we
00:17:25
started recording Jada that I knew you as a Hollywood actress you know that's
00:17:32
what I that's what I know of you of I'm not someone that's hugely involved in Media or TV or movie so that's what I
00:17:37
thought I never in my life IM thought of you as the daughter of two um drug
00:17:43
addicted parents who had chosen their addiction over you and I never knew that
00:17:49
you started dealing drugs when you were very very young were you were you not scared dealing drugs in Baltimore
00:17:57
and you you don't have time to be scared that environment was a war zone right
00:18:03
and so it's like stuff was popping off all the time so you just get used to a
00:18:09
certain level of violence you get used to a certain level of
00:18:15
um just vigilance because that's what you're given so you just learn to adapt to that
00:18:25
kind of environment so the levels what what somebody might consider
00:18:30
dangerous for me was just normal it wasn't like ooh I'm going into
00:18:36
something crazy here you know it's like [ __ ] everything's crazy so what right so
00:18:42
I look at it now and I go what in the world you know but I have I'm living a
00:18:47
different reality in that time when I was living that reality that's what life was and
00:18:56
everybody that's what we were all living was there moments that were wakeup calls hell yeah and you
00:19:05
were dealing drug listen getting two n millimeters pointed at you at one time
00:19:11
one to your head that's a that that you would think that's a big wakeup call Jay we don't all know what 9 millimeter is
00:19:17
oh you know I guns you know it's two big guns you know when did that
00:19:25
happen um I had to
00:19:30
be 17 17 17 years old because that was my
00:19:36
senior year of high school and what what was the reason that
00:19:42
someone pointed two guns at your head I was I had uh posted up in this in
00:19:49
the projects in this apartment on the bottom floor where I would sell drugs out of the window or through the door of
00:19:58
that particular apartment and somebody set me up to make a long story short somebody set me up
00:20:06
and um as I was making the exchange through the door that had the chain on
00:20:12
it two guys from the side of the door which I couldn't see because I'm looking through the peephole two guys from the
00:20:18
side of the door come around and kick the door in and pull out guns Point them to me
00:20:27
and take all my money my jewelry and
00:20:32
stash and I was really lucky to make it out of that alive for sure because the
00:20:39
person who led that robbery ended up killing two drug dealers um two weeks or
00:20:48
a month after put them in a uh put him in a trunk shot the trunk up and uh
00:20:57
murdered two guys and um he ended up doing life
00:21:02
for that but uh I could tell as he was leaving
00:21:07
you know you it's so interesting when you're in moments like that I can still see his eyes as he's leaving me and how
00:21:15
he's making a choice in the moment of what he's going to do with
00:21:21
me and by the grace of God he left me there
00:21:29
why well when and of course I you know my crazy self because of
00:21:37
who because of the protection that I was under at the time I called that person I
00:21:42
was like I just got robbed he knew exactly he knew exactly he's like I know who this is don't worry about anything
00:21:50
um I was like I want my [ __ ] back and so we actually um
00:21:58
that person whose Wing I was under he made for a meeting for us to meet in
00:22:04
that area a couple of days later he was like you're not going to get your money back you're not going to get the drugs
00:22:09
back but maybe there might be some pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll you know he hasn't sold yet and that's
00:22:15
he was exactly right he had you know a couple chains or whatever and I told I asked him I said
00:22:21
you know why' you just leave me there like and he said you were too pretty and that
00:22:27
was the first time and I talk about this in the book that was the first time that I was like well maybe I am pretty
00:22:35
because I was like maybe I am pretty because you know he cuz this this was a
00:22:41
stone cold killer and I talk about even when I met him how he looked like he he
00:22:47
had never felt any kind of love in his
00:22:52
life and I'm just I don't know what kind of crazy nut I was at that time I was just so
00:23:00
all I can say is just out of my mind like I was just in such an alter reality I I I really thought I was going to be
00:23:06
the next Queen pen first of all again a lot of people don't know what queen pen is Jan yeah well you know
00:23:12
I thought I was going to be the next you know like big time female drug dealer
00:23:17
you know and I really had I I was I I was crazy I absolutely was just a nut
00:23:23
because I had no fear whatsoever I was absolutely Fearless
00:23:28
to be rolling with these wolves like this and like it was nothing like it was
00:23:34
absolutely nothing I think about that today I think of my daughter I'm like
00:23:40
what the like I don't know all I can and that's
00:23:46
when I know and I think back on everything that I've been through I was like there is a God for sure there was a
00:23:53
God cuz that dude for me to even want to see his face
00:23:58
again was like I want my [ __ ] back and he had it he had it for me he
00:24:04
was like there you go you know and so um but it prepared me for Hollywood it
00:24:11
prepared me it prepared me big time how
00:24:17
it prepared me in a way because I was running with Killers that's it's as simple as that right so the Hollywood
00:24:25
Flex you know dudes who were presenting themselves as like these
00:24:32
powerful you know if you don't do what I say like bro
00:24:38
honestly it it it just didn't resonate that way for me I just looked at it I
00:24:44
looked at all of that as just kind of like puppy
00:24:51
play it didn't resonate with you but from the words you describe in your book
00:24:56
about how you received in Hollywood it appears that H you didn't resonate with
00:25:02
Hollywood either for a while I did not yeah for a minute this Rough Around the Edges Rough Around the Edges yeah
00:25:09
because I mean it it was part of what was refreshing for a lot of people but
00:25:14
it was also the thing that was standoffish too right what is that um I
00:25:20
think just that that edge that I came with that no you know having no [ __ ] to give
00:25:27
basically was just like I'm here to do me what you know and I got something to
00:25:35
offer and if you can't see it well then that's on you you're lost you know just that kind of attitude and just kind of
00:25:42
like you know I wasn't your Prim proper uh
00:25:48
demure young lady you know it's just kind of like as just rough
00:25:53
rugged and rambunctious since interesting isn't it in life how a
00:25:59
certain type of demeanor or attitude or mindset can help us to survive and
00:26:04
thrive in one context but sometimes we need to figure out how to turn that [ __ ] off yes and that's what I had to learn
00:26:10
to do cuz you weren't in Survival anymore I wasn't in Survival anymore you know
00:26:15
and I talk about this in the book you know how Warren batty bless him he was
00:26:22
probably one of the first people that was just like hey you're in Hollywood now okay I get
00:26:30
it but why don't you allow people to see some other aspects that charm you have
00:26:37
that smile you have like let's take that let's take that chip off your shoulder a little bit you know and he was the first
00:26:43
person really to talk to me in a way that wasn't like making me wrong right he didn't make me
00:26:51
wrong for being who I was he was just like there's so much more to you let
00:26:56
people see that you know and that was the first time I
00:27:02
actually listened because he didn't make me wrong and I bet you Warren has no
00:27:07
idea that how how much that conversation and the time that he spent with me
00:27:13
really meant to me was really awesome because he was he was so respectful and
00:27:21
he really honored where I sat and where you you didn't get that
00:27:27
often in Hollywood it was just like no you got to change this you got to do this different you you'll never get jobs
00:27:33
like that I was just like well then I won't work cuz you know I was very rebellious
00:27:41
sometimes in that way um but yeah he really that really
00:27:46
stuck with me and from that day on I just started on the Journey of trying to figure out how to not lose
00:27:54
myself but also
00:27:59
feel find a way to feel safe to take that approach because
00:28:08
like I said I was around wolves all the time so I had to
00:28:15
always be on guard I had to always have this tough exterior I always had to
00:28:21
carry the attitude like I'm not the one you don't want to come over here it's
00:28:26
interesting cuz when you putting up such a barrier to defend yourself
00:28:32
um Can often make us quite hard
00:28:38
to form connections yes absolutely the reason I paus there is because I'm
00:28:44
thinking about what you said in the book after Tony left you who was your
00:28:49
mother's new husband he left abrupt abruptly after playing the role of of a father and you said the line about um
00:28:56
the rejection was was brutal something broke inside me my grief was Oceanic I put on a li I put it on a library shelf
00:29:03
labeled unlovable and I tried to leave it there that's another word that comes up over and over again this word UNL
00:29:09
unlovable and it's funny because when people are when they feel unlovable themselves they do often put up these
00:29:15
walls which make them it's almost like self-fulfilling it's right you know exactly and that's the essence of what I
00:29:21
felt in J when she arrives in Hollywood is this person who's got this sort of little bit of a tough exterior up but not because not because she's not you
00:29:28
know yeah not because you know it was really just it was it was so many things
00:29:34
I was trying to protect it was defense not offense what I'm saying exctly yeah it was and and I still to this day you
00:29:42
know people like you know I still to this day have to like manage that
00:29:49
because it's just it's just in me it's just part of me it's something because it was such
00:29:56
a um it was you know it was something that
00:30:01
was built at the foundation you know it's in my DNA default it's yeah it's my
00:30:06
default so it's like and I I do it well I can just you won't know anything
00:30:12
that's going on but like you said it's like well then you don't give yourself an opportunity to make the connections
00:30:18
that you really want to have and you're going to be misunderstood stood yeah all
00:30:24
the time which that is like that has been my life too just
00:30:30
misunderstood another thing I learned from reading the book which is going to shock you that I didn't know but this shows how little I am tuned into media
00:30:37
and Hollywood all that is your relationship with Tupac oh yeah he comes
00:30:43
over introduces himself yeah first day of school Baltimore School for the Arts
00:30:50
and um as soon as I walk in he's holding Court he's holding Court
00:30:58
he's a like he's a charismatic from day one he's holding Court I'm like who's
00:31:04
who's that peanut head dude over there you know and I'm coming in I'm rocking you know I'm Jada I'm walking in I got
00:31:10
the rat tail I got the fly clothes you know and he turns and we our eyes just
00:31:18
meet and I'm like oh and then you know I'm I'm going to hold my court you know
00:31:24
I'm saying and so then he comes over you know my I'm like oh okay cool yeah
00:31:31
whatever and so he comes over and he's like hey I'm Tupac and I'm like Tupac
00:31:37
the name from the gate was just like never heard a name like that before that
00:31:43
was such a powerful different name and I was like Tupac and he had this big smile and I
00:31:51
was like it's not a lot of people that have that kind of like Charisma and courage to just walk up on me on just
00:31:58
like I'm Tupac I'm you know what I mean you need to know me you know and from the right from there Inseparable we
00:32:05
became the best of friends from that moment on we just connected it was as if we already knew each other it's
00:32:11
crazy people will find it hard to believe that at that age in that environment it wasn't a romantic thing I
00:32:17
know people have had a really hard time you know understanding that Pac and I had a hard time understanding
00:32:25
why it just didn't we didn't have it and I talk about it in the book you know
00:32:30
that being on the back of porch of my house and we're like having this discussion I'm like okay Pac just kiss
00:32:38
me and he kisses me and it's the most disgusting kiss between us both I mean
00:32:45
he pulled back just like and I pulled back and I was like see dummy you know
00:32:51
and from there it was just like and then there was one more time he kissed me and it was just like like and I talk about
00:32:59
that in in jail when I go to see him in danam Mora that's a whole another thing
00:33:04
and once again it's just like dude doesn't work but
00:33:13
throughout our relationship we definitely had this
00:33:18
beautiful closeness that was really
00:33:24
intimate but never physically intimate a lot of emotional
00:33:30
intimacy a lot of um intellectual
00:33:36
intimacy um we just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very
00:33:42
difficult we knew how to get around each other's walls and we didn't get offended
00:33:51
when we would fall into our defaults of Defense which could be be pretty Fierce
00:33:57
between the two of us he was quite uh a Powerhouse and so was I we
00:34:06
could be very challenging when we got riled up so arguments we were very
00:34:11
passionate but because we were one and the same in that way we kind of understood that language like a this
00:34:17
joke is is you know what I mean so we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time which comes later in the
00:34:24
book yeah when you come from the same place so you know origin stories you don't have that misunderstood thing you
00:34:30
talk about because you understand I just understood him I just understood him and he understood me he really got me and he
00:34:38
really knew how to pull my coattails in ways that a lot of people didn't and same for me with him I just
00:34:46
knew how to reach him in ways that and and that had everything and I think
00:34:52
because we didn't have that kind of I think sometimes
00:34:57
physical intimacy can really get in the way MH you know um and I think that God
00:35:04
just made it that way in which Gody was like no no no I need you to to be I I I
00:35:10
got a plan so that's not part of plan did you know did you in your heart of
00:35:17
hearts know that Tupac was going to go on to do what he
00:35:22
did I knew he was going to go to do something m
00:35:28
I did not know he would become the Tupac we know him to be but I
00:35:33
knew he was going to do something great in hindsight when you look back at who he was the character traits the
00:35:39
ingredients that were within him why did he go on to do what he did what was it about
00:35:45
him he wore his heart on his sleeve and he could join
00:35:51
you and so what I mean by joining you is that he's not talking at you he's
00:35:56
talking with you he had a way of being able to speak about subject matters
00:36:06
that he's going to sit with you in your broken heart and speak to you from there
00:36:15
because he knows that broken heart he's lived that broken heart so
00:36:22
and whether it's your broken heart whether it's your rage but he just knew how to penetrate
00:36:30
those emotional spaces in people and that's what I mean by joining you he
00:36:35
knew how to join you emotionally in so many different
00:36:40
vertical of emotion you know he was supremely intelligent as well he was so authentic
00:36:49
also and so raw that I think that was really refreshing as well he gave you
00:36:55
him and he was Unapologetic so he's going to give you his intelligence he's going to
00:37:03
give you his fear he's going to give you his pain he's going to give you his
00:37:08
anger you know he's going to give you his sympathy he's going to give you his
00:37:13
understanding right but it was coming from
00:37:19
that that heart space that that that real space within it wasn't a gimmick it
00:37:25
wasn't like oh I'm going to talk about this because this is what's hot no you know right wrong or indifferent
00:37:32
he gave you his truth and some truth people could rock with with them and some truth you couldn't you know what I
00:37:38
mean and um but regardless it was what was real for him at that time he was
00:37:45
always authentic but it's not easy it comes with a cost right it comes with a
00:37:51
cost because it's almost the opposite of conformity in a way authenticity yeah exactly and he was a rebel in that way
00:37:59
and I think people really I at at points in his
00:38:06
career you know he could speak he would speak for the community and then at
00:38:11
points of his career he would speak from that that really intimate place of woundedness Dear Mama yeah you know that
00:38:19
so many of us related to nobody was speaking to us
00:38:25
in that way that could that could go from Ambitions
00:38:31
of a rider to shed so many tears to a soldier Story come
00:38:39
on come on you know to I mean he had so he could
00:38:46
speak to us from so many different angles that is just the evidence of authenticity isn't it because people are
00:38:52
multifaceted in their nature no one is just ambition of AI yeah we were all all the shades all the shades right but rap
00:38:59
rap music especially back then was very narrowing it was like this is how to be a rapper so someone willing to be
00:39:05
authentic it's funny I've seen this over and over again they they are the most resonant people in the world because
00:39:10
they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us in that's also what vulnerability does yes that's what you do as well in
00:39:17
this book well thank you because because you're willing to lay it all out we can relate to many people will be able to
00:39:24
relate to many parts of you and you know without books like this we get
00:39:29
narrow views and those narrow views those are crafted by other people and
00:39:35
they're the least relatable narratives right yeah and we're also multi-dimensional you moved to LA you're
00:39:42
working three jobs you start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood um at
00:39:49
this point you you meet a certain Fresh
00:39:54
Prince the Savior Prince the Savior Prince oh yeah and I was quite shocked
00:39:59
by I think of I think of Will Smith I think charismatic he's good-looking guy
00:40:05
yeah you didn't seem to think that way no not at first yeah what did you
00:40:13
think at first I mean he was the fresh prince I was like okay he's cool you know but I was like not not not the guy
00:40:20
for me you know why was he too soft I wouldn't say he I wouldn't say soft I
00:40:28
would just say that he didn't seem deep and I talk about this in the book
00:40:35
how at that time a troubled dude seemed deep to me versus just
00:40:43
troubled it's like stay away from the troubled right and so he wasn't troubled
00:40:50
it didn't seem to be right and so I was like that's not deep like he just seems
00:40:56
like you know just didn't draw me in that way you didn't feel the same way anymore
00:41:03
though do the the Deep Parts he's actually yeah exactly yeah yeah don't
00:41:11
judge a book by its cover that that's that's what Will Smith told taught me it was like not to judge a book by his
00:41:16
cover and I learned that you know years later when we had an opportunity to have
00:41:22
you know we had a mutual friend and so we were able ble to share some time at
00:41:28
Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to see a totally different side of him
00:41:33
Dwayne Dwayne Martin yeah yeah you went to that jacket Potato Place yeah the
00:41:38
baked potato mhm what was it about what did you see in will that night I found it really interesting because one of the
00:41:44
things that you described seeing in him was someone who quite was quite adamant in taking over the world yeah he so
00:41:51
ambitious you know and in such a beautiful way he had Big Dreams Big
00:41:57
Dreams and um and he was so
00:42:04
joyful he was really joyful but
00:42:09
grounded and that was the part that I missed he was grounded it was
00:42:16
like he' been through some things and he was really
00:42:22
intelligent so he's what you call you know he go from the hood to the White
00:42:28
House and everywhere in between right and I always find people
00:42:34
like that fascinating that have a wide
00:42:39
range within them places that they can go you know
00:42:45
you drop Will anywhere and he's going to figure it out and fit in he had asked
00:42:50
you to be his onc screen girlfriend hadn't he he okay yeah so I AUD IED for
00:42:56
fresh prins I think it was the second year to pay one of his girlfriends and they were like you're too short I was
00:43:04
like all right cool right and so that was the first time
00:43:10
that I actually met will I came out of the the casting and he was you know coming into
00:43:17
the casting office or about to leave or something and he was like Hey I was like yeah what's up you know I was like no
00:43:24
need to talk to me they always said I'm I'm short yeah know so I'm on my way and
00:43:30
then and I think I I think I was probably about 20 um and he wanted he he
00:43:37
wanted me to play his you know his girlfriend as a series regular so he
00:43:43
flew in to North Carolina to meet me and I was like n I'm going to do movies now
00:43:50
and he was like all right cool that's a that's a bold that's a big rejection to reject the fresh prince of
00:43:57
ballad when he says you can be his sort of recurring onscreen girlfriend in a hit show and you say TV's not for me I'm
00:44:04
going to focus on movies big cool well I had just done it I had just come off of a different
00:44:09
world and I knew like I had the protection of Debbie Allen on a different world right and so when I
00:44:17
wanted to make moves Debbie was there to help me that's not to say that I would
00:44:22
have that same assistance on fresh prints and at that time they locked you in mhm you couldn't do anything you know
00:44:30
what I mean they have you for six years they got you locked and I I just didn't want to be
00:44:35
locked like that and so I really wanted to try my hand
00:44:41
at doing movies and then Dwayne Martin when I turned will down Dwayne Martin
00:44:47
got on me because he felt the same way you did it was just like it's Financial Security how could you let something
00:44:53
like this go and you know who's to say when your next starring Mo you know role is going to come in and blah blah blah
00:44:59
blah blah and I was like but I'm so glad that I didn't take that role because I tell you what if I had taken that role
00:45:06
will and I would not have been married and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow and been Trey's bonus mom my life would
00:45:12
have been totally different you sure I'm positive yeah as
00:45:17
in you're sure that you wouldn't have gotten married I'm positive because you seen yeah no you
00:45:24
would have seen the red flags listen
00:45:29
no yeah no earthquakes are hard to predict sometimes you feel tram is ahead
00:45:34
of time often they come on suddenly and in your early 20s you had your first maybe not even your first but
00:45:42
what you describe in the book is your first breakdown personal earthquake when you're driving down the street one
00:45:49
day mental health and Psychiatry have come a long way since then um I I I
00:45:56
would guess that at the time many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was I had no idea what was going on me
00:46:04
just thinking about that moment just it's like
00:46:10
um I was so overwhelmed you know and I was like I I didn't know what was going
00:46:16
on with me and it came over me in an instant I was fine one
00:46:21
moment I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that you know I
00:46:27
saw to say and to say hello to her and all of a sudden my body shaking all
00:46:34
these emotions come over me and I I'm like I'm starting to it's like waterfall
00:46:40
of like tears and I I'm like and I have no idea like my brain is not catching up
00:46:45
to what is happening with my body all I know is that this waterfall this volcano
00:46:54
of emotions It Was Fear anger
00:47:00
Despair and I was like I I got and she was looking at me like are you okay and I was like I don't know I you know and I
00:47:06
get in the car and I'm trying to drive and I'm like you can't drive pull
00:47:14
over and then I pull over and then I just
00:47:20
remember feeling terrified to just let it go and I let it go and then I'm like
00:47:26
I want to die I want to die and I
00:47:33
remember making it home and all I could do was call my
00:47:39
mother and say you got to come here I'mma kill myself you know and I think about that
00:47:46
and I'm just like wow and my mother was like she was maybe a year into her
00:47:54
sobriety right and what a terrifying call to get like if I get that call from Willow or
00:48:00
Jaden or Trey I'm just you know it's like and
00:48:06
um so she's figuring out because she just started a job at this
00:48:13
hospital I'm so terrified to be by myself I call my H girl MC light and I
00:48:20
tell her like you got to come out here I'm afraid to be alone by myself I'm
00:48:26
going to do something to myself and she flies out and so she
00:48:32
holds me down until my mother comes it's a crazy
00:48:42
moment have you figured out what what your body was telling you I think my body was telling me that
00:48:52
I think my mind was telling me
00:48:59
hey we have some things we got to pay attention to up here enough with let's
00:49:06
keep it moving I'm going to make it so you're not going to just be able to keep it moving anymore you have some things
00:49:13
that you got to pay attention to some things that need to be addressed and at the
00:49:20
time like you were just talking about nobody was talking about Mental Health
00:49:26
at all and specifically mental health was
00:49:32
considered like a white people thing black people don't have mental health
00:49:38
issues right and so suicide for sure was
00:49:43
a white people thing so I was real confused I I felt
00:49:51
really I felt like something is is has gone really really really wrong here
00:49:58
because nobody else like me feels like this nobody knows what's going on
00:50:06
and maybe I'm losing my mind I'm actually going crazy no so it was a scary
00:50:15
time when I read about that it sounded to me like you had been you've been playing defense for just a little bit
00:50:21
too long yeah for sure for sure and that's I guess one of the costs of the
00:50:28
the toughness right they're like as you say we'll just keep it moving we just keep it moving nobody a me are they no
00:50:35
it's going to catch you you can deal with it or it will deal with you those are your Cho those are your two
00:50:42
choices but you you did keep it moving even in that moment it seemed it seemed like you you carried on with the work um
00:50:50
I think you were you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist right yeah I went to see a psychiatrist they put me
00:50:56
on um Prozac and I I started therapy I started
00:51:02
therapy but it does still appear that you kept it moving because you you kept working you didn't seem to want to show
00:51:09
anybody outside of your sort of inner circle hell no why absolutely
00:51:15
not because that's what we do we keep it moving right and so I was like I got the
00:51:21
help that I need I got a doctor and I'm on Prozac
00:51:27
just like right so I'm like okay I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing
00:51:32
and I can't let anybody know and we're GNA keep this moving
00:51:39
because that's what we do plaster over cracks yeah we just at
00:51:45
that time I'm going to take a break because you know I'm having I'm
00:51:52
depressed what at that time that that seem absolutely ridiculous quick one I
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ce10 for 10% off don't tell anybody about that okay just for you guys did
00:54:04
you go back to Baltimore I did I went back to Baltimore um and because I
00:54:11
was going to continue working but not live in LA
00:54:16
anymore and so I bought a farmhouse I bought a little farmhouse
00:54:22
on I want to say it was about 6 Acres maybe six or nine acres if I remember
00:54:29
correctly and it was um I was going to build a life there for
00:54:34
myself in a little quiet corner and you know I was like all right
00:54:40
I'll if I need to audition I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from
00:54:46
La I will was trying to hit you up at this this point in your life yeah he hit
00:54:51
me up he had just Sheree had just sent him divorce papers and um he decides to
00:54:59
call me and of course me not knowing anything about marriage thinking that marriage you know break up of a marriage
00:55:05
is like breaking up with a boyfriend he's like you know um where
00:55:10
are you and I'm like I'm in Baltimore you know renovating my house and he's like are you seeing
00:55:16
anybody and I'm like no he's like good you seeing me now and I was like what once again that kind of bold you
00:55:24
know approach I was just like oh clutch my pearls a little bit so he was like you know call me when you get back to LA
00:55:33
so when I got back to LA I called him and we went out on our first date in and around that time pack had
00:55:38
been sentenced to Rikers right he'd been sent sent to jail for he been sent to at
00:55:44
that point in time he was at Rikers but then he was on his way to damura which is a horrific place where they send
00:55:51
terrorists yeah usually yeah I think the 9/11 some of the people that were involved with 911 or the well Trade
00:55:57
Center bombings were sent to damura um while he's in
00:56:03
jail while he's in jail what do you have
00:56:09
here oh yeah now as I slip from grace and the
00:56:16
world has turned against me a few claim to have love for me but once again you show your love after deep reflection and
00:56:22
spiritual awakening I have come to realize the friend love and soulmate was there all the time I have not seen or
00:56:29
felt from anywhere anyone the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me that
00:56:35
is why I want to commit myself to you I want to marry you he sends you that letter yeah he it's much longer letter
00:56:42
than that but that's the words that I put in the book a marriage proposal
00:56:48
that's why he was in Rikers when I went to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is
00:56:53
actually that's a really danur might be where they put
00:57:06
terrorists Rikers is
00:57:11
like I remember going to see him there and
00:57:19
um he was in such bad shape you know and
00:57:24
um I Rikers I
00:57:30
like yeah Rikers was bad danur yeah terrorists are there
00:57:40
but far more Humane conditions than I would say
00:57:49
Rikers it feels it feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you when you think back to these
00:57:55
these moments in your life oh yeah it feels like I just came back from
00:58:02
seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave him there was just like
00:58:09
yesterday but I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now as I'm thawing out as I'm dismantling my
00:58:19
defenses you know I call it the thaw out so I'm I'm in a really raw place
00:58:24
obiously Pac was he gets out of jail and sugaright I mean talking about timing I
00:58:30
think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for Tupac's
00:58:35
murder a lot of emotions yeah how did you feel when you heard about the um
00:58:40
conviction or that someone had that arrested an arrest had been made
00:58:48
um I was like I was glad that an arrest had been made this
00:58:54
this was someone who we had known had been in the car he
00:59:00
he had had done some Street interviews about it you know um and I was just hoping I was like
00:59:09
well I hope they're bringing him in because we're going to get some other questions
00:59:16
answered so you know my hope is that we'll
00:59:21
get more questions answered in the book you question but then you
00:59:28
confirm that pack Tupac knew how you felt about him when he passed away
00:59:34
because you and him hadn't been speaking no and I think there's a really important lesson in in this for all of
00:59:41
us yeah yeah we had a we had a
00:59:46
huge fight huge it was one of the biggest fights we had ever
00:59:53
had and and [Music] um and it was about how he had been
01:00:01
living you know and uh I
01:00:10
really at that time you know really had to let him know my position that I just
01:00:17
felt like you know where he was sitting with
01:00:23
everything was just
01:00:30
just it wasn't going to end up well
01:00:38
right and we had a magnin I mean it
01:00:47
was just beyond the two of us just at each
01:00:52
other um and I was just like [ __ ]
01:00:58
that I'm not calling him this time he's going to have to call me he was way out of
01:01:03
line so I really dug my heels heels in the ground in regards to like
01:01:11
nah you I let my pride I let my ego come in I really took for granted that he
01:01:16
would be living forever like he had already survived so much like it never
01:01:23
like I never I I looked at Pac as being Invincible at this point you know cuz he survived so much
01:01:29
even so much that people don't know about you know
01:01:36
um but just like I say in the book I'm like man don't do
01:01:42
it don't do it don't don't don't hold on to like that prideful part of yourself
01:01:50
you know with someone you really care about like no you know he going to have
01:01:55
to call me this time you know I was like nope was that the last time you spoke to him that was the last time I spoke to
01:02:01
him that was the last time I spoke to him I was the last time I spoke to him
01:02:09
and you know what's crazy it meant absolutely
01:02:15
nothing it meant absolutely nothing and so that's the test I always have I'm like okay you're in this beef with
01:02:23
somebody will this beef matter on your deathbed and then right away I'm like
01:02:30
nope let me give him a call you know what I'm saying that's my that's my
01:02:40
test almost a year later he gets shot in Las Vegas you get a phone call while
01:02:45
you're filming on set that he's from I believe from his mother um Shakur and
01:02:51
saying that he's in hospital in a coma and a few days after that you find out that he's passed away yeah I was on my
01:03:00
way you know fa was like no rush he's going to be
01:03:05
fine um he had his fiance there with him and his family
01:03:12
um she was like so you know come after your trip in New York so
01:03:19
I was on my way to him and
01:03:25
my girlfriend Fawn came to the door and she I I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was
01:03:34
gone oh I know that picture yep that was Thanksgiving he
01:03:42
came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with me and we were at one of my friends
01:03:47
house you look like brother and sister yeah we look like brother and sister because that's what we were yeah he came
01:03:55
to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me we talked about mental health earlier
01:04:01
do you do you know how to grieve someone the loss of someone like like that in your life no I'm still I'm still um
01:04:09
working out my relationship with grief
01:04:15
actually yeah I haven't I haven't really I yeah I'm
01:04:22
still working that out because this chapter of your life was
01:04:29
loss mhm unor loss chapter 12 of your book I've got this other picture that I
01:04:35
found that I thought was um relevant oh now you do you know why this
01:04:41
is relevant I do Maxine and and Tupac are both in that picture same
01:04:53
picture
01:05:03
do you have a
01:05:08
tissue
01:05:17
thanks thank you give nice
01:05:23
hugs um yeah that's
01:05:30
a
01:05:47
yeah
01:05:53
sorry yeah I am I lost Maxine and Pac back to
01:06:01
back so like to you know this picture to be flanked by
01:06:08
them yeah I lost them back to back maxing was a good friend of yours
01:06:16
um pack was your brother yeah and she was like my sister you know she um
01:06:25
I met Maxine on Jason's Lyric and
01:06:31
uh we became like super tight and she
01:06:37
lived in Canada and so she wanted to come to Hollywood
01:06:43
and make a career for herself so I told her that she could come live with me so
01:06:48
she came to to live with me um she we we feel feel as though she
01:06:58
um had a misdiagnosis that she had some kind of thyroid
01:07:03
disorder that really um disrupted
01:07:11
her psyche mhm and um she ended
01:07:17
up jumping off her mother's balcony committed she committed
01:07:22
suicide um so that was really
01:07:32
tough it seems it seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your
01:07:37
life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss you know because in all these
01:07:44
situations as you write about in the book there are reflections where you you say in the
01:07:50
book If I you know you're left with this feeling if I'd done this I could maybe I should have done it like this or I wish
01:07:56
I'd treat that situation differently in hindsight as we know is a wonderful thing isn't it right you know and I've sat here with a lot of people that have
01:08:02
lost a lot of people by by Suicide and they all have the same Reflections yeah they all have that last phone call with
01:08:08
the person where they had to put up a boundary and yeah you know I've sat here even in LA in that chair with I remember
01:08:16
BOS um her her partner at the time calling and saying listen if you don't come and do this I'll jump off this
01:08:22
bridge and then he does and yeah it's like that existential
01:08:29
disappointment of just life being what it is it's like grieving that
01:08:40
grieving it's like she in a she went from this like
01:08:48
happy person like having this condition that just
01:08:55
right and so I just sometimes I just go this is when I just have to like
01:09:01
reconcile with God it's like wow God like you really be
01:09:09
doing some stuff like you know what I mean and it's like and sometimes I get in grief around what life
01:09:18
is and then I have to make peace with it
01:09:26
feels thinking about your story it feels confusing that God could seemingly
01:09:34
hand someone so much you know wonderful career wonderful family all of those things but at the same time and maybe
01:09:42
maybe there's a relationship maybe there's a relationship between the two because had you not had the had you not
01:09:48
come from where you came from maybe you wouldn't have had all the wonderful things that you have but also had you
01:09:53
not come from where you came from maybe you wouldn't have experienced all the loss that you've experienced MH so maybe
01:09:59
there's a relationship between the two because I've not experienced that loss but I don't come from where you come from so I didn't lose friends growing up
01:10:06
right I didn't lose friends in in the in my 20s either right um having all the different experiences
01:10:13
that I've had as painful as some of them are it gives me the opportunity to join
01:10:19
people in a certain manner you know and in really powerful
01:10:27
places you know like I have a beautiful friendship with
01:10:33
um Lauren London and she is the
01:10:38
Widow of nipy hustle and because of the loss that I
01:10:45
went through with
01:10:51
Pac I could reach out to her and I could go
01:10:57
hey anytime you need anything anytime you need to talk I'm
01:11:04
here and Lauren's quite like me defenses you know what I mean but I just kept
01:11:11
walking closer and closer and I just say all that to say that we've been able to meet each other
01:11:18
in a certain place because of the type of losses we've had
01:11:25
mhm that can really create beautiful
01:11:32
connection you feel me I feel you yeah
01:11:38
so there are blessings and pain you just got to you just got
01:11:45
to know that to be true and wait for that door to open you know and that's just one one
01:11:52
tiny example example of like the blessings that I've found in a
01:11:59
lot of the loss that I've had in my life in general you know there's almost an
01:12:05
irony or a paradox in the fact that your pain caused a disconnection but then the
01:12:10
pain caused connection deep
01:12:16
because heartbreak there's this beautiful scene
01:12:22
in heartbreak which is like it breaks you open breaks you open and you got two
01:12:29
places that you can go you can go into the deep Wells of
01:12:35
Darkness or you can go into the deep Wells of light and I've been to
01:12:45
both and I've learned I ain't trying to be over here no more you know what I
01:12:51
mean so I always use heartbreak discontent
01:12:58
pain to help me search for bright light and beautiful blessings within
01:13:05
them in the opener of the book you described in the prol the life that the
01:13:11
world would have seen in over the next sort of 10 years of your life before you before you turn 40 you describe the you
01:13:19
know your super successful Hollywood actress you've got this husband who is
01:13:25
you know Will Smith and he's a super successful Hollywood actor you got these kids you got the family you got the
01:13:30
house you got it all yeah externally you're killing the game so internally you must be killing the game right
01:13:36
internally you know I was spiritually
01:13:42
bankrupt right I I find it so I found it so interesting hearing you describe the
01:13:47
relationship that both you and will had as it relates to conflict resolution uhuh I find it so interesting cuz I've
01:13:54
come to learn over the last couple of years that the way we deal with conflict predicts the long-term health of our relationships oh God yeah and I think
01:14:01
there's this professor professor I think it's called professor John gotman who studied couples and tried to figure out why they end up in divorce and he says
01:14:08
the number one reason is because they build contempt contempt that's all about conflict
01:14:13
resolution how you're dealing with your [ __ ] yes absolutely now you remind me of my partner because she wants
01:14:20
connection she wants to talk she wants to resolve things she's you know she wants to deal with the emotions
01:14:26
I would like to not I will buy you something to make sure that you're safe
01:14:31
right I'll pay for your stuff right but I just want to work yeah and I and that's the way you
01:14:39
describe and so I resonated with Will in that but I I you sharing how you felt
01:14:45
throughout that story helped me to understand my partner and all the conversations she's had with me about
01:14:50
what she actually wants from me and me misunderstanding her because we have different Love Languages yeah and your love language
01:14:57
starts when you're a kid right yeah for sure and wills does too
01:15:04
absolutely what was that conflict of Your Love Languages Wills you know was very much like yours it's like M I want
01:15:11
to work I want to work hard so that you can have everything in the world that you'd ever want you know I'm you're not
01:15:19
going to need for anything right am I Lov like was like but I just want you to be here with me I
01:15:26
don't need all of that stuff I want to look in your eyes and you know feel your love and feel your protection here with
01:15:33
me and you know it was like that connection
01:15:38
I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a masterpiece out of our connection you
01:15:44
know and he wanted to make a masterpiece out of you know the the the life
01:15:50
itself right and neither's wrong wrong neither is wrong and that's what I
01:15:58
had to learn that that that's where we we've come to now and understanding neither
01:16:04
one of those wants are wrong how do you balance
01:16:10
them because it can't be one or the other how do we balance it like yin and
01:16:17
yang everything about life is balance so I just want you to know that
01:16:23
you're your partner you talking to me yeah just I just want you to know that because in in
01:16:29
as couples we get into these power struggles no my way is right no my way is right well if you didn't have this
01:16:35
you know you know it gets into all of that right and it's like
01:16:41
stop it's not about anybody being right or wrong how do you get the balance of it
01:16:50
that's it right and so yeah it took Will and I three decades
01:16:58
CHR I haven't got that kind of time yeah three decades okay three decades that's
01:17:05
what we'll get to that will get you it doesn't have to be that you know it's
01:17:11
like do it now cuz that's what I've said to my girlfriend is I've told her that I've
01:17:19
got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career so I just want to f for now and then we're going
01:17:24
to have all of our lives together I actually said that to her one day and she reminded me of it a week later when we were arguing yeah I was like we're
01:17:29
going to have all of our lives together so like we'll connect later yeah we'll connect later it's like what kind of
01:17:35
foolishness is that you know what I mean and I'm going to tell you like
01:17:42
this I bet you when you're on your deathbed you're not going to think
01:17:48
about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve
01:17:54
what do you think you're going to think about most when you're on your deathbed how you were loved and how you
01:17:59
loved no 100% okay and even as I said it I thought about Tupac and how you never
01:18:06
know how long you've got left with someone you don't know why would you ever want to wait and put that off it's
01:18:13
an excuse though isn't it it is an excuse to justify my own toxic or holism
01:18:18
well you know I wouldn't call it toxic I'm I'm I'm always careful with this word toxic that we're thrown around
01:18:25
right cuz we're all so wounded exactly and it's not
01:18:31
listen when intimacy makes us have to look at our
01:18:38
[ __ ] right it's easy to go I piss you off I got you this diamond ring I got
01:18:44
you this you know beautiful bag I'm gonna take you on this trip it's like
01:18:49
right but like real emotional intimacy
01:18:54
see we got to we got to deal with our stuff a lot of stuff comes up
01:19:01
there but that's where that's where connection and love and true
01:19:11
happiness true fulfillment is what's going on in our inner
01:19:16
landscape you talk of this loss of identity when you married will and this
01:19:23
quote I wrote down it feels like I can't grasp my own Journey at times I feel resentful and angry I don't know what to
01:19:30
do about it you and will had these two sort of different Visions for happiness in your lives together his being that he
01:19:36
wanted to take over the world as a global you know movie star all the things that he is um and within there you start to lose yourself a little bit
01:19:42
it seems this word resentful yeah very interesting word
01:19:48
yeah can you give color to that word why you why you chose to use that word cuz it's true you know it was
01:19:56
like I felt as though at that
01:20:03
time all right if if I'm I I want to help you do all of those things I'm here
01:20:10
to help you with that right um and I'm like and in
01:20:17
return I should get a bit of what I want which is connection
01:20:23
right and so you just for me just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving and forgiving
01:20:30
forgetting well not even forgetting not realizing
01:20:36
that I was abandoning
01:20:41
myself in the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this if I just keep pouring into him if I keep pouring into his
01:20:48
dream I'm going to eventually get what I want right and that's a false idea in so
01:20:56
many ways right the I and so many of us do
01:21:02
that if Will looked back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was I was asking
01:21:08
for it wouldn't he wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway because if
01:21:13
I'm not connected to myself if I don't have a good relationship with
01:21:18
me there's nothing he can do so I was going to be asked out anyway
01:21:25
you know what I'm saying so it's like that's part of the journey there's no right or wrong
01:21:30
everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories there's no good guys or bad guys we're
01:21:36
all wounded trying to figure this [ __ ] out you know and so it took me a long
01:21:42
time to realize it is not his responsibility to make you happy he
01:21:50
can't it's impossible possible but it took me
01:21:56
forever hardheaded stubborn you know because that romantic idea and that's
01:22:03
why I talk about checking the boxes it's like I did everything I was supposed to
01:22:10
do you get to have your dream how come I'm not having mine and that's because will was doing what he wanted to
01:22:16
do he was making himself happy he was making himself happy and he says that to you doesn't he
01:22:24
he says you when you separate he says he wants you to go and he's like go go go
01:22:31
make yourself happy go make yourself happy and how did you receive that not
01:22:40
well not well because you know there can be truth but you know what I'm saying
01:22:46
it's like how we you know I think it was very true but
01:22:52
I think think at that particular point of time I was just still really resentful I'm just like you know oh so I
01:22:59
helped you get your happiness now you just going to you know throw me to the curb and you know I got to do it all on
01:23:06
my own now you know but that's the truth I had to do it on my own you know just
01:23:12
like he did you got to do it on your own you got to do it on your
01:23:18
own you got to do it on your own
01:23:24
and a lot of that's what this this is about and me detoxing
01:23:30
from needing fulfillment and validation outside of
01:23:36
myself detoxing from needing it from will my marriage my
01:23:43
family a career like I had to get to the Bare Bones of
01:23:48
Jada and walk what I call the exiled lands and those exiled lands are going into
01:23:55
the crevices of you know those places within that were holding me back from
01:24:03
myself all the fears all of the false information and false ideas of what life
01:24:10
is and what a marriage is supposed to be and you know who I was supposed to be
01:24:17
what a wife is like all of it perfectionism perfectionism
01:24:24
and then I just went off to be completely imperfect and took joy in that because
01:24:30
being in Hollywood I mean this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism I think every looks
01:24:36
perfect on the surface yeah and I think it's not a healthy
01:24:44
idea it's just not healthy and it's not true and nobody can
01:24:50
live up to that you know which is why I've been dismantling that need to be
01:24:56
perfect for myself and that's been a painful ride
01:25:03
but leading up to your 40th birthday which is also where the book starts
01:25:09
MH I I read the first pages of the prologue and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading because the place
01:25:17
you're at in your life this chronic state of discontent that you describe
01:25:23
I I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book which is no socker Mom
01:25:29
here that was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot of lot for me to take M hearing that that's
01:25:35
what was going on in your head and your mind that's the way you viewed life you didn't see any path forward for you um
01:25:41
you're 39 years old um apparently you know on the surface it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream
01:25:47
of having but internally there's this chronic state of discontent tent
01:25:58
yeah if I was I often say to people if I was a fly on the wall but if I was a fly inside the walls
01:26:05
yeah what were you what was going through your mind 39 years old about to turn 40 oh I was in a very very dark
01:26:17
place very dark place just I remember the I read where
01:26:22
you said if I got to 400 p.m. every day I was like I made
01:26:28
it I made it and even that was like so
01:26:33
hard I mean you know I was talking to my mother this morning because she just read the book and she said I can't
01:26:38
believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying really yeah and I was like you
01:26:45
know Ma I I just I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of
01:26:52
you know and what she brought up was
01:26:59
like she knew I was unhappy but she didn't know
01:27:05
why so it wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really
01:27:12
unhappy it's just that everybody believed what I believed which is why it was so hard for me to talk about which
01:27:17
is like you've got everything what are you unhappy about
01:27:22
right and so that's how I was feeling you've got everything what are you unhappy
01:27:29
about and that was just I had so much shame around that because I didn't
01:27:37
understand and even then there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental
01:27:45
health and so I was just like [ __ ] it I can't keep doing
01:27:51
this I went out and it was just a really really dark
01:27:59
time when you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor no
01:28:06
I'm saying I was looking to the point where I was like big sir I knew exactly
01:28:12
the route to drive and it's this really narrow route and sometimes it gets really foggy there
01:28:18
at night and you I'm not I'm not making it out of that out of that
01:28:25
drop I I remember driving that one time going to Big Sir because I
01:28:31
was looking like here like on mahand I was like these drops aren't going to
01:28:36
like I need a drop that I'm not making it back I don't want to be disfigured I
01:28:42
don't want I want out and I knew I had to make it look like an accident because I did not want my kids to think that I
01:28:49
had committed suicide
01:28:57
no I was I was yeah I was in a lot of pain I was in a really really dark place and when
01:29:03
you're in that place you just can't see your way out and you really think I really
01:29:11
thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't
01:29:20
matching the ex exterior of my life so I really did feel like I I was
01:29:27
just born broken and I was just wired in a way
01:29:34
that just what was the truth if that's how you felt what was in
01:29:41
hindsight now what do you know to be the truth of that emotion and that state of your life 39 40 years old what was actually going
01:29:50
on that I really feel like that sometimes when we get into these states
01:29:57
of wanting to die you know for those of us who have had like suicidal thoughts and what have
01:30:04
you sometimes it is chemical that's a different thing I think mine was more
01:30:10
psychological something is asking to die but not
01:30:16
you and it's a it's it's a different way of
01:30:23
looking at things right and so and it's it is a it
01:30:29
is a extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of
01:30:38
self-hatred I was in a psycle of self-hatred that I didn't even
01:30:45
know cuz we're unconscious of it so the mind is tricking us you know
01:30:51
what I mean we got to be careful with this this isn't as reliable as we think you know
01:30:59
and so um but I was in a I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it wasn't until thank
01:31:08
God for my son that I was you know he introduced me
01:31:15
um his friend's father did iasa and they happen to be talking about it and they
01:31:21
talk to me about it Jaden came in the kitchen he's like you got to sit down with Moises and Mato you got to hear
01:31:26
about this experience ma that their dad had was Jaden saying that intentionally did he know that you needed that no he
01:31:33
wasn't saying that in he was just curious he was just he knows I'm curious he knows I'm a Seeker right
01:31:39
right that was divine and so I went and talked to them and I was like hey is your dad in town
01:31:45
and then their dad came and I talked to him and he I was like I need that
01:31:53
and then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own
01:31:59
ceremony for days of like
01:32:05
intense tense ceremony but that's when I got to see that cycle of self-hatred I was like this is
01:32:12
you these are your thoughts this is how you feel about yourself this is the
01:32:18
problem and so the medicine really showed me
01:32:25
this pit of self-hatred I was in and it
01:32:31
helped me get out of it chapter 20 of the book you you titled surrender yeah
01:32:39
surrender is an interesting word why is surrender so important in your journey you have to surrender everything you
01:32:45
think you are and everything you think you know I've spoken to a lot of people that have done Alcoholics Anonymous and
01:32:51
they talk about the importance of surrender yeah it's like surrendering you know for
01:32:57
me also surrendering to a power a higher power and that's a constant that's every
01:33:05
day I have to remind myself and deep in my surrender to a power far greater than
01:33:13
myself chapter 21 the holy joke the holy slap and the holy
01:33:19
lessons it's interesting because there's Sim ities between chapter 19 and chapter 21 in that you took a lot of the blame
01:33:28
for situations chapter 19 the entanglement conversation yeah because when you watch
01:33:35
that clip online at the at the red table will looks tired and he looks sad and he
01:33:40
says that thing he says I'm G to get you back yeah it did it made it look like you had cheated on him or something I
01:33:45
have to like check the facts because if you see that clip in isolation it looks like you cheated on will or something which is not what happened
01:33:52
yeah but you put that out anyway you you could have not put that out I know do you regret putting that out no you don't
01:33:58
I don't if I didn't put that out I wouldn't have
01:34:04
seen that next place of healing that I needed because I can take so much
01:34:13
like discomfort it wasn't until I saw how the
01:34:19
people around me were affected did I mean my mother my kids my friends
01:34:28
people like they were like how could you do
01:34:35
this and I was like well I just wanted to end
01:34:40
everything you know will wasn't ready for the world to
01:34:46
know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives and I just
01:34:52
took it because I just wanted to stop I just want it to end people are like no my mother was
01:35:00
like what are you she was like you need to get your ass in therapy she's like you are codependent
01:35:08
as hell you know and everybody was just so
01:35:13
and then how people that love me so much were affected by that
01:35:19
time I don't think it would have penetrated and for me to really look at
01:35:27
that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the
01:35:32
people around me reacted because I don't really care about public in that way like most
01:35:38
people do I don't whatever because I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that but people who
01:35:45
love me I needed that mirror to see
01:35:53
that place of healing that needed to happen in me in the dynamic Within Myself what was that Dynamic within
01:36:00
yourself just like martydom oh okay throwing yourself under the yeah that martyrdom that I'm I will martyrdom the
01:36:08
holy slap yeah you you you write about in the book how you didn't realize that will had actually slapped Chris yeah
01:36:14
until much later you thought it you suspected maybe it was a skit or it was a skit and then I realized it wasn't but
01:36:20
I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris looked like he ducked it social media grabbed onto this eye
01:36:26
roll mhm and they um social media believed that that ey roll was some kind
01:36:32
of like go get him will yeah and even if it was it was like I can't force will to
01:36:38
do anything you know and you will weren't together we weren't together as you know we were family I was there with
01:36:46
him as family but we weren't together at that time were you surprised by the reaction
01:36:51
and to that moment both for you but also for
01:36:57
will yes and no I was surprised at how much I knew I
01:37:03
was going to get blamed but like I didn't think that it was going to be I I mean it was insane you know it was like
01:37:10
wow um but I knew I knew we would have I knew it was going to be a storm in the
01:37:17
book you say protection is your love language mhm he protected you didn't he
01:37:22
um did you see that as a Act of love you know it's a really complicated
01:37:31
moment it's a really complex moment I would say yes and no in a certain manner
01:37:37
you know um but I definitely think in his
01:37:44
way but it was it was so much more it wasn't about me that's why it's complex
01:37:52
right it's like it was about a lot more than
01:37:57
just that moment a lot more than just me that's what I know you know what I mean
01:38:03
cuz you know well and you know where he's come from and yeah and I I there was a lot that was stirring up for him
01:38:09
at that time because of emancipation and he and Chris have their own history
01:38:15
going back to the ' 80s yeah going back to the 80s and it's a deep one J
01:38:21
thank you thank you for writing this book because it's it's not until we
01:38:27
understand people's context that we understand them and when we understand them we realize that they are just so
01:38:33
much like us yeah in the wounded the imperfect the survival the defense and
01:38:39
all of those things and that's exactly what I got from Reading worthy um but also as I said to you I think before we
01:38:46
started recording there were so many moments in there that acted as the advice that no one around me could have
01:38:51
given me because they've not walked in those stairs you act as an elder to me in the book because you you've helped me
01:38:56
to figure out and shine a light on a certain area of my behavior which comes
01:39:02
from um maybe a wound that I have that is going to hold me back and lead me to a place I don't want to go to I promise
01:39:08
you yes yeah exactly and you're right you use the word breadcrumbs but that's exactly what the book is it's these
01:39:14
these it's your story but throughout your story you leave these little nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will
01:39:20
guide those that read the book to a better place in their own lives and they can subjectively Define what that better
01:39:26
place is but the wisdom is enduring because the wisdom is human and it's true so there's something in there for everybody it's one of the best books
01:39:32
I've ever read because of the the writing style the vividness I I felt like I was in your grandmother's Garden
01:39:37
I felt like I was there at um all of the key moments when when you have what I
01:39:42
describe what I thought was a panic attack on the highway and those moments the moments of sadness the vividness of
01:39:48
the writing is so is so profound but the vulnerability of the book is the most impressive thing it's easy not to be
01:39:55
vulnerable it's easy to paint a narrative that is self- serving but that's not what you do here you seem to
01:40:00
be in the pursuit of the truth and that's exactly what I take away from this book so thank you so much J thank
01:40:05
you thank you for creating a safe space at your gray
01:40:11
table and uh for holding my tears today I appreciate that thank
01:40:18
[Music] you as you may know this podcast is sponsored by hu if you're living under a
01:40:23
rock you might have missed that I discovered hu's RTD about four years ago hu's RTD is basically a meal in a bottle
01:40:30
it is nutritionally complete it contains 26 of your essential vitamins and minerals it's got your protein in there
01:40:36
20 grams of protein it's got slow relase energy in there in the form of those slow release carbs it's just
01:40:42
nutritionally complete not only have I got a good relationship with it in terms of health but it saves my life in terms
01:40:47
of those busy days where there's a higher probability of me reaching for something I might regret if you haven't tried HS RTD you probably seen it in a
01:40:55
couple of supermarkets but you can order it online and the link is in the description below let me know which flavor is your favorite and also tell me
01:41:01
if it ends up adding value to your life in the form of making you nutritionally complete on those difficult
01:41:06
[Music]
01:41:19
days [Music]
01:41:29
oh
