00:00:00
world's not for me because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore I feel nothing
00:00:06
I think that that's the hardest part I haven't really spoke about this it's um
00:00:12
yeah I'll just say it I mean the man behind her favorite hits music
00:00:18
Superstar Grammy Award winner we're just getting started you have no idea what is
00:00:23
the desire to be on stage come from Michael Jackson I wanted to make music art with Melody it was where I felt an
00:00:31
escape from my head 14 year old looking 12 shots of vodka
00:00:36
you know on a school night by myself running from the police and doing drugs that never stopped
00:00:47
we were in our home and home and I'm there I'm high her period was laid went got other pregnancy test
00:00:53
and I'm just like praying let this be a negative pregnancy test
00:00:59
I'm not ready to give up the drugs and then I heard the tears I remember
00:01:04
walking outside and I just started bawling because I couldn't feel any sort of happiness and I knew what that meant
00:01:12
if you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with young Ben at 14 years old before that first drink
00:01:19
what would you say it's a great question it's going to cause way more pain than good but at the
00:01:25
same time
00:01:32
would you like to go for dinner with me and my guests here on the diver CEO we are holding dinner parties all around
00:01:39
the world over the coming months and our subscribers on this YouTube channel are invited we're inviting 20 subscribers to
00:01:45
every dinner so if you'd like to come for dinner with me and my guests here on the Diary of a CEO I have a favor to ask
00:01:51
you all you've got to do is hit the Subscribe button and I hope to see you at dinner somewhere around the world
00:01:57
very soon oh [Music]
00:02:06
when I when I think about people's lives I think from doing this podcast this has
00:02:12
become more sort of clear to me I see their lives as like a series of dots you know like or a series of dominoes that
00:02:18
fell to lead them to where they are today and if you go back to the very start of that that series of dots to
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understand the most influential moments or things that um inspired
00:02:30
you to become the person you are today in every sense of the word what are those first dots those first experiences
00:02:37
that I need to know in order to understand you my first dots my first dots I think
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would be listening to the radio
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outside summer time next door neighbor's yard
00:02:58
and being introduced to music
00:03:04
and loving music Falling in Love That Summer
00:03:09
I believe I was six years old and you know I had an older neighbor who was maybe four or five years older than me
00:03:16
and he had a bunch of um you know my best friend was next door he
00:03:22
was five years older than us it was like a collection of of kids in the neighborhood and I remember that summer
00:03:28
being this magical introduction to art to music to listening to the radio
00:03:35
and falling in love with with Melody with sounds that was my first that was
00:03:42
my first Dot and then my next dot shortly after that was falling in love
00:03:48
with hip-hop music at the age of seven and
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those were the first two dots that really set me on a path a trajectory and
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this desire to be on a stage people can listen to music have that
00:04:06
summertime experience they can listen to rap music but not have the desire to be on stage where does the desire to be on
00:04:14
stage come from Michael Jackson I think it was I think it was MJ I think
00:04:20
that you know like everyone else that grew up in the in the 80s there was something
00:04:25
about watching Michael Jackson command a stage
00:04:31
and what he did with his body what he did with his feet the moonwalk obviously
00:04:36
but everything about it the Perfection the timing the the nuanced moves that he
00:04:42
had the way that he commanded the crowd there was a curiosity around what is
00:04:49
that I'm not sure but I want to try and an
00:04:55
inner performer was born in my household at the age of seven and
00:05:01
uh everyone that came into my house was subjected to whatever show I was putting on that day and I just wanted to you
00:05:07
know get on the kitchen counter and show people that like you know I have a show for you guys come watch
00:05:13
parents home life parents um
00:05:18
yeah they were they were super encouraging you know my mom was my biggest cheerleader my
00:05:24
biggest Advocate someone that was always in my corner that was like you can do it you got this
00:05:29
and I just believed her even when I shouldn't have and um those years were very
00:05:38
were very crucial in my development of gaining confidence in in who I was as a
00:05:45
person and as an artist School you you got kicked out of school
00:05:51
dropped out of school around 14 15. yeah no I didn't get kicked out I was close to getting kicked out
00:05:57
um probably should have got kicked out I wasn't going to school much but I went to a small school and up until uh High
00:06:05
School and it was very communal
00:06:11
um you know parents volunteered it was this alternative creative school and
00:06:16
then ninth grade hit and that is when
00:06:21
drugs and alcohol hit as well and I had freedom it was like you know the school was like 1600 kids or 2 000 kids or
00:06:28
something and for the first time I wasn't being watched I could skip class
00:06:35
um the teachers didn't notice if I was there or not or they didn't call my parents and
00:06:40
um there was this level of Freedom so there was that period of of a year year and a half where
00:06:46
um I went from kind of a b student to uh damn near getting kicked out for for
00:06:52
failing so didn't last long I got back on track and um you know completed high
00:06:59
school with I think I closed out with a 3.8 or 4.0 my last year of high school
00:07:06
um and what did you want to do when you were an adult like if I lost 14 15 year old you know what are you going to be
00:07:11
when you grow up would you have told me I wanted to rap you believed that you
00:07:17
could get there you know I didn't know if I could or not but it
00:07:24
wasn't it 14 or 15 I don't think I would have necessarily had the confidence like this is going to be the path but by the
00:07:30
time that I hit around 20 years old it was like this is
00:07:37
this is possible 22 it was like this is even more possible 23 but the problem was that I kept having
00:07:44
um you know it was just it was always like I could make this a reality if I
00:07:49
can just get sober and I couldn't get sober so it was this like I need to get sober I need to get
00:07:55
clean so I can make music that's meaningful that's impactful because once I got high it was like the veil was over
00:08:02
my eyes I had no connection anymore to the music and um it was kind of always that balance but I felt in my heart if I
00:08:09
can get clean I can make enough music that will resonate with people that might be able to pay some of
00:08:16
these bills when people think about I built a business with my business partner for many many years and
00:08:23
throughout that process he was and he's been on the show before he he was
00:08:29
addicted to alcohol and I didn't know what it was so we were living in the
00:08:35
same house together I'd go downstairs at three at 3am in the morning and I'd find him in the laundry room drinking from a
00:08:40
bottle yeah and I'd put him back in bed and then you know 5am I hear a sound he's managed to get a another bottle of
00:08:46
alcohol and his bed sheets are covered in this red wine and I just thought you know in my naivety this is someone that
00:08:51
just likes alcohol right and no one had taught me this concept of addiction the disease of addiction I had no idea what
00:08:58
it was so it wasn't until things escalated even further that there was almost an intervention moment where we
00:09:04
literally met one one evening because they've been an incident caused a lot of damage and it was basically like an
00:09:10
ultimatum moment yeah then I went on the Journey of understanding what addiction was and the disease of addiction as you describe it
00:09:16
when Jay spoke to you on Jay's podcast I could see he was doing a similar thing
00:09:22
to what I was doing when I was researching your story which was like trying to understand the cause of it and
00:09:28
I'm not even sure if that's the right question do you know what I mean like we're all searching for a cause yeah
00:09:35
and and so I wanted to ask the question to you like what is in your view
00:09:40
how did that relationship with drugs and alcohol come to be you know I think that for me it was the
00:09:49
first time in my life where I felt an escape from my head it was like what was going
00:09:57
on in your head I don't even know but I just felt to reprieve I felt this like this Elation this moment of like all of
00:10:05
these thoughts in my head are gone and I am here with this bottle
00:10:12
and no one's around and I get to be a secret and I get to hide this and I feel
00:10:21
free I feel free from whatever it was in that you know 14 year old
00:10:27
puberty hormonal teenager that was going on in my life it was like
00:10:33
quiet and um I had the allergy from the very beginning it was
00:10:40
you know One Shot Two Shot what does four feel like what does eight feel like and all
00:10:45
of a sudden I'm taking 12 shots of vodka um you know on a school night by myself
00:10:51
hopping on the bus and you know running from the police and it was a crazy first
00:10:56
time drinking alcohol that never stopped for me every time pretty much that I drank turned into a Crazy Event like
00:11:03
that um but I don't know I don't know exactly at the time what I was what I wanted to
00:11:09
escape from I think that there was just that changing reality
00:11:15
there was that oh I like to be able to to skew what's in front of me and to
00:11:21
silence the minds from your from going through the process of recovery and rehab and all those
00:11:28
things you've met a lot of other people that have struggled with the disease of addiction has any of that process taught
00:11:33
you anything about your own relationship or the causal factors of your own relationship with
00:11:39
substances and alcohol you know I think that there's through lines absolutely and I think that for a
00:11:49
a lot of us that have the disease of addiction there's trauma there's childhood trauma there's you know if the
00:11:56
disease kicks in later in life maybe that trauma came into play later but I
00:12:02
think that there is a through line in what I have seen in others um and that's you know some sort of
00:12:10
thing that we're we're holding on to or a secret or you know something that happened to us in life that
00:12:17
um drugs and alcohol kind of numbs and takes away quells that that inner guilt that inner shame
00:12:24
whatever it might be I think that there's a through line between us addicts and in our past and then I
00:12:31
think also there's people that just have the allergy and maybe it's maybe it's not related to trauma at all maybe we're
00:12:38
not predisposed or maybe we are predisposed It's a combination I don't know but I do see that um a lot of
00:12:45
people are trying to escape it's a difficult thing especially for
00:12:51
the um the people around that individual like to because you know going back to
00:12:57
my own example with my best friend and business partner I didn't have the tools to know how to be there right you know
00:13:03
and I also didn't have the information to understand what I was dealing with like if you'd asked me when I was 25 like what was going on with my friend I
00:13:10
just loves to get drunk right it's part of the culture yeah and then when you meet what we do is 25 year olds yeah
00:13:17
um if if you were to give advice on like how those around the individual who is
00:13:24
struggling with the disease of addiction can be there or what their role is supposed to be or what would you what would you say what advice would you have
00:13:30
given me at 25 years old you know I think that there's there's resources that we have there's
00:13:36
Al-Anon where if you have someone that it's a 12-step program for people that
00:13:42
have loved ones or friends or whatever that are going through the disease of addiction and how to show up and you
00:13:50
literally they're in the basements of churches all over the world or you know community centers or wherever they're
00:13:56
free and there's people that are going through the same common struggle of how do we show up
00:14:02
in an authentic way and help save this person's life that we love
00:14:08
um because we don't have the information you know for so many of us I think that there's this notion of just stop why
00:14:15
don't they just stop why are they hurting themselves how could they do this to me we make it about us right
00:14:21
like how could they do this to me how could they lie to me how could they go out and say that they were going to quit
00:14:26
and then keep going why don't they see who they turn into just stop
00:14:32
just stopping doesn't work there needs to be a support system there
00:14:39
are needs for for the attic we need 12-step meetings we need therapy we need you know to evaluate our mental health
00:14:45
we need to work the steps we need a sponsor we need a community of people that share our very same struggle so we
00:14:51
can see ourselves and experience the therapeutic value of one addict helping
00:14:57
another that is our piece but until we get there just stopping is almost impossible
00:15:03
and sometimes it takes you know hitting those really low points of of getting
00:15:08
arrested or getting Court mandated to go to you know 12-step meetings but on the
00:15:14
others the other side of it here you are with your friend and you have no idea how to show up
00:15:21
authentically in that moment and actually really come from a place of love and you're angry and you're so
00:15:27
angry right you're pissed you don't know how to deal with that emotion and you realize that once you go to this meeting
00:15:33
these meetings that just like the addict we're powerless over drugs and alcohol you're
00:15:41
powerless over your friend and there are things that you can do to help
00:15:46
there's probably things that you can do to maybe hurt but overall
00:15:52
they have to be in enough pain that they want to change and you're not going to be the Catalyst
00:15:57
and you can put them in I've watched it time and time again of people with the best intentions that end up enabling
00:16:04
that end up you know fueling the fire that end up trying to help but not
00:16:10
having the tools themselves and I think that Al-Anon is the best easiest free way to even if you want to go to a
00:16:17
meeting or two to get some skill sets some language and to realize that um at the end of it
00:16:23
come from your heart and lead the expectations aside because this is their Journey at the end of the day
00:16:31
the moment that I described this moment where we had kind of like an intervention with my best friend and it
00:16:37
was really the day we met on a Sunday in an office after the Saturday before he'd got very very drunk and caused a lot of
00:16:42
problems with team members he's talked about this like doing things in public going on someone's table next
00:16:49
to the restaurant um the table next to his at the restaurant he was at with our team grabbing their alcohol off the
00:16:54
table and doing all these crazy things and getting kicked out of the restaurant it was a surrendering the day after and
00:17:01
you used that word before yeah we met in the office and it was the first time
00:17:08
I came with anger and it was the first time he told me how he felt yeah
00:17:16
and he cried in front of me and that was and then my anger immediately evaporates because it's the
00:17:22
first time I've heard that this individual is suffering with something right and there's a pain and that was the day that was the the day he became
00:17:28
sober went to therapy went on that journey and he's been sober for eight years since then but it was that
00:17:34
surrendering moment it was that like him reaching out and saying like I need help in me actually like listening yes
00:17:41
you see him for what he is in that moment which is hurting which is an immense pain
00:17:47
he doesn't want to be like that he feels the guilt and shame of his actions he's tried to start and and stop and go back
00:17:55
and forth and things that okay maybe it's just hard alcohol or or dark alcohol or maybe it's beer or maybe it's
00:18:01
the combination of this drug he's tried everything and he's hurting and he doesn't know how to stop he doesn't have
00:18:07
the tools and I think that that surrender that you talk about is one of the most beautiful moments for an addict
00:18:13
or an alcoholic is like waving the White Flag we think about surrender is is a weakness right like you don't surrender
00:18:19
you keep fighting you keep going no with this disease the greatest thing that we
00:18:25
can do is surrender is to snitch on ourselves is to wave that white flag is to let other people know that we are
00:18:31
struggling on our own internally that this is something is broken and I have
00:18:37
no idea how to get out of this and um and what did that do when he was able to
00:18:42
be human to you you were like okay now I can come from a place of love because I'm pissed off about what you do last
00:18:48
night and I'm pissed off that you've done X Y and Z and that we've had this conversation or whatever the situation
00:18:53
is um and you know you ask what can you do as a 25 year old friend
00:18:59
coming from a place of love and I think compassion and even if it's not you know
00:19:04
empathy isn't possible because that's not what you're going through I think that that compassion is
00:19:10
is what makes people feel you know what they actually care about me it's not
00:19:16
just like I'm pissing them off but they actually care and you know just kind of like letting go of
00:19:22
our own expectations of people and meeting them where they're at is always
00:19:28
you know the best place to show up from when was your moment of surrender
00:19:34
God I've had many I think my my biggest moment of surrender I was 25
00:19:39
or 26 years old 25 I think and I had been
00:19:45
on oxycontin for you know I don't know a couple weeks couple a month and it
00:19:54
caught up really quickly in terms of my addiction to the point that you know
00:20:00
I lost a ton of weight I'm you know I'm scratching I just was like I was dope
00:20:05
sick and I had never really experienced that before um all the happiness any serotonin was
00:20:12
gone it was one of those moments of I remember like walking outside and it was summertime in
00:20:19
Seattle which is like most beautiful place in the world in the summer and I remember walking outside on a tank top
00:20:26
and I'm like you know I just started bawling being outside because I couldn't
00:20:32
feel any sort of happiness it was gone it was like it had evaporated and um
00:20:39
and I didn't really want to be here anymore like there was that moment it was like there was no real suicidal
00:20:46
um ideation or plan but it was just this like
00:20:52
maybe this world's not for me because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore
00:20:57
I feel nothing I feel nothing um except deep deep grief and the
00:21:04
obsession to get more and it was shortly after that my um you know I went to a family function and
00:21:11
I'm trying to you know piece it together and just be presentable and just get through it and my Dad pulled me aside
00:21:17
and um you know I think my mom had asked him to talk to me
00:21:22
because you know we didn't grow up having too many heart-to-hearts it was mostly with my mom but my mom I
00:21:28
think urged him to do it he pulled me aside and just asked me are you happy
00:21:33
and um that was my surrender moment I kind of
00:21:39
lied to him I couldn't lie to myself it was
00:21:44
a very clear answer of absolutely not I am
00:21:49
so broken I am I don't even know what happy is anymore
00:21:56
and um he asked me to go to rehab
00:22:01
said that he would pay for it and immediately I wasn't ready for that
00:22:08
surrender though you know in that moment I'm like no no I I've heard about these 12-step meetings I'll go to those I know
00:22:15
someone that goes and um he came back and was like I think that it would be really good for you to have
00:22:22
these 28 days to just focus on yourself and of course there's always the like well I can't go because if this is
00:22:28
happening and this is how you know we're not worried about those things happening when we're risking Our Lives doing drugs
00:22:33
or copious amounts of drinking we're just worried about it when it's like now we need to go take care of ourselves
00:22:39
and it's like the the addict Anthem is like well let me just get my life together and then I can go to rehab it's
00:22:44
not really how it works it's more like um you know we come in very
00:22:52
you know we're at our worst no one goes to rehab and they're like you know life's okay but I think I need some rehab no people come in when they are at
00:22:59
their bottom and I was at I was at mine and just saying yes to him that day on
00:23:04
the porch saying that I would go was my surrender moment it was my white flag
00:23:10
and it was the best decision I ever made in my life hands down
00:23:17
have you ever reflected on that crossroads moment and if you'd
00:23:24
chosen to go the other way and you'd said to your dad maybe yes I am happy when he asked at that family get
00:23:30
together or when he said go to rehab you'd said no
00:23:35
I think there's a good chance I could be dead um really absolutely and that was close
00:23:41
at that time I've been you know
00:23:47
this disease we think of um we think we're so far away from Death
00:23:54
you know that we're Immortal and that it won't happen to us and um
00:23:59
I think I'm probably in my 30s in terms of how many people I know
00:24:05
that have died from the disease of addiction um you know when I wrote my first
00:24:12
song about the disease of addiction called other side when I got out of rehab
00:24:20
um maybe in 2009 I had known three people
00:24:27
so we've gone up by probably around 25 30 people since then
00:24:32
um I'm not naive to how quickly it can happen and taking into account fentanyl as well
00:24:39
right now and what's going on with street drugs it's it's rampant we are we are facing
00:24:45
an epidemic right now around the world but particularly in America I don't know how it is over here but I think this
00:24:51
fentanyl is no joke it's killing people um they think they're getting one drug they're getting another drug and
00:24:58
the nature of the disease it is out to kill us that is its sole purpose and
00:25:04
um yeah I'd be dead I think so
00:25:10
you've been so successful throughout your career with your music and it's it's it's an interesting hearing those
00:25:17
stories of the struggle and the ups and the downs and the battle with that and then looking at your your catalog in
00:25:23
terms of music and I was it was crazy I was going through I was going through all your songs going back through the
00:25:29
through the years and I'm looking at the numbers on these [ __ ] records and I'm thinking [ __ ] 1.4 billion views
00:25:35
500 million views 500 200 million views and huge huge numbers the records are
00:25:42
they feel Timeless when I listen to them um there's a real real real talent there
00:25:48
which you know when I think about the struggle you've been through then I look at the back catalog of the work you've produced from an artistic standpoint I'm
00:25:54
asking myself what's the relationship here like has has that has your struggles played into the music or has
00:26:01
your struggles sort of taken away from the music and your potential like what is the relationship and what is what has
00:26:07
music been throughout that struggle to you it's a great question and it's honestly
00:26:13
a question that I think about too like I've I've kind of asked myself that same
00:26:18
question in the last 48 hours I don't know if I have an answer
00:26:27
I believe that it's all panned out the way that it's supposed to be has drugs
00:26:33
and alcohol affected me being prolific absolutely it's taken away work ethic in
00:26:38
moments it's taken away um Seasons years of of time where I
00:26:44
could have been focused where I could have been building momentum but instead I chose the path of
00:26:51
um instant gratification and we were talking about this last night there's one of my mentors and ogs
00:26:59
in my 12-step program are one of them um
00:27:04
you know her name was Rita and she had this business card that she used
00:27:10
to give out to people and it said that her greatest regret in life is trading
00:27:16
in what she wanted in the bigger picture for what she wanted in that moment and I
00:27:23
always think about my life in that way of is this what I want for the greater good for my story to be or am I acting
00:27:31
at a place of Desire am I acting at a place of wanting to change the way that I feel right now knowing that that will
00:27:37
hinder me that's not really what I want what place am I coming from and weighing those
00:27:43
and I think for a lot of my life it was no I want this right now and
00:27:48
that oftentimes is a destructive pattern whether it was sex or with drugs or you
00:27:54
know whatever um of trading in what I truly wanted what I truly believe to be the truth
00:28:01
because my truth is that I am the best version of myself when I am clear when I
00:28:08
am silent enough to be able to be a conduit to something that is outside of my
00:28:15
understanding I couldn't even put it into words it's that magic that happens in the studio where all of a sudden
00:28:20
you're almost removed from the pen that's writing the song and
00:28:26
um you know I choose to call it God but that God presence that being is is
00:28:32
absolutely moving through through me I've never been able to feel that
00:28:37
um without a spiritual practice music has always been a spiritual practice for me
00:28:42
but I think that it's made me who I am I've made tons of mistakes and since I've
00:28:48
been famous I made tons of mistakes that were that were you know influenced by the drugs that I was doing or you know
00:28:55
the the positions that I got myself in but those also turned into learning moments
00:29:01
they turned into maybe a song or maybe a conversation or maybe the thing that I
00:29:07
needed to share about in a 12-step meeting that saved someone's life I don't know I don't know but I know that
00:29:14
um I'm here I know that I'm here for a reason I know that my catalog
00:29:19
um is something that I'm super proud of and you know beyond the numbers it's
00:29:26
like last night driving from Birmingham into London
00:29:31
I listened to Ben my new album I hadn't had that really that moment for
00:29:38
a while of listening to my album and its entirety because you're working so hard on it there's so many nuanced things
00:29:44
it's like you can't even just enjoy it and I sat in the car and I listened to it all the way through and um
00:29:53
it's the best feeling to be like you know what I I worked really hard on something and um
00:30:00
in all of these little moments all of these mistakes all of this pain eventually finds its way
00:30:07
into purpose and I think that that's an i an artist
00:30:13
highest form is to be able to take pain and repurpose it into purpose
00:30:21
what is giving you that or like you describe that moment in the studio where you're clear and you're almost
00:30:26
channeling something you'll hire creativity whatever that is have you been able to figure out what it
00:30:32
is that causes those moments of of clarity and and focus and stability and
00:30:38
then on the other side of the coin what causes the the chaos in our lives the instability is there any causal factors
00:30:45
yes for me it is
00:30:52
exercise getting outside it's like actually
00:30:57
cardio it is
00:31:03
being of service to other people it is a spiritual practice it is coming from Faith rather than fear
00:31:11
it is thinking about ourselves less and others more it is being still in the studio not
00:31:18
thinking about what is this going to do for the world but just actually being present
00:31:23
and removing the ego which is what all of those things
00:31:28
help facilitate right like when we when we're of service when we work out when
00:31:33
we show up when we're at peace when we think about ourselves less we're removing the ego I'm stripping it away it's a process of excavation
00:31:40
and the opposite is when I'm thinking about okay
00:31:45
what if this song doesn't work at Radio what if this you know what if Tick Tock doesn't you know do the challenge what
00:31:52
if uh you know whatever it is when I'm future surfing thinking about the outcome rather than
00:31:58
enjoying the process the process is where the magic happens the rest of it I've never for all of the
00:32:05
records that I've ever put out there has never been a moment of any calculation that has worked
00:32:12
doesn't work the records that I've been like oh yeah this is going to be the one
00:32:18
those are the ones with like two million views on YouTube and the ones that I'm like you know who
00:32:23
knows those are the ones with you know that really affected culture that really like got out there and you know the
00:32:29
world knows these songs 10 11 years later or five years later or whatever it is I think the intention in
00:32:36
the studio is so important because even if you know even if I put out a new
00:32:43
album that doesn't stream as as well as the last one or whatever it is that's not my metric if I'm if I am basing my
00:32:52
identity around those numbers and those metrics um I will always be disappointed
00:32:59
my bucket will always be half full and
00:33:04
if I'm basing it on what was the intention what am I actually trying to get at
00:33:10
the music is going to hit who it hits it was already written I just have to get out of the way when I try to control
00:33:17
hang on when I try to play Puppet Master that's when I become miserable and um
00:33:25
and I'm not effective at my job so two questions here they're on that
00:33:31
basis you know I'm sure people ask you what your favorite record is whatever I'm not really interested in that I know it's
00:33:36
like choosing your favorite children or whatever and they're all different for various reasons but in terms of the most important record you think you've ever
00:33:42
recorded the one that you believe has benefited um others the world the most
00:33:47
irrespective of performance metrics what what is that record it's two records it's um Same Love yeah
00:33:55
and other side interesting and I think Same Love is the obvious
00:34:01
answer because it came out at a time where we as I'll speak for for America
00:34:12
but kind of you know even more it came out at the time in America where we were having this
00:34:18
conversation around legalizing gay marriage where um there was a shift there's a cultural
00:34:25
shift and that song became
00:34:32
became something bigger than than me it became a move a moment for a movement towards
00:34:40
equality and as a as a songwriter as an artist as someone that um you know
00:34:47
Prides himself on on the pen and the in the ways that it
00:34:53
can move spirit that's the that's up there that has to be one or
00:35:00
number two the other one is other side and the other side is a record that not
00:35:05
as many people know but it is one that it was kind of the first you know it was the first record I wrote when I got out
00:35:12
of the treatment and it was that I I am literally not even here right now I'm
00:35:18
just trying to be silent enough in my own head to just let this magic happen but it talked about
00:35:25
the disease of addiction for the first time and I kind of was like ah I just need to get this out I don't
00:35:32
know I I am an addict and I don't want to like hide this [ __ ] and I know it's not cool I know it's not gonna sell more
00:35:38
records I know it's not what anyone anyone else is talking about I know it's not what my favorite rappers are talking
00:35:45
about but I am an addict and I have to be sober um
00:35:51
and I need to let whoever was listening me at the time the 2000 fans that I had
00:35:56
I needed to let them know that this is who I was and um you know it said that we're only
00:36:02
as sick as our secrets I didn't want to be sick anymore I just wanted to tell my truth and that was the record to do it
00:36:08
and what I watched happen after that I'll never forget people coming to the
00:36:16
shows you know six people 12 people 14 people in recovery coming because
00:36:25
they heard other side and
00:36:30
it changed their life and I know what that feels like as someone
00:36:37
on the other end of it who's life has changed so many times by the music
00:36:43
that I was listening to and yeah it's those two those are the ones
00:36:51
I listened to a drug dealer earlier and um I listened to it but then I looked at the comment section and it is
00:36:59
like it's profound it's profound that the second comment on that video is from of
00:37:05
recovering heroin addict who's crying while they're watching that video because it's making them feel heard seen
00:37:12
and understood um in a really profound way and every every comment was like that every comment was
00:37:19
um speaking to like the liberating and therapeutic impact that someone was having on you know thousands and
00:37:25
thousands of people it's a really profound thing it's almost you know
00:37:30
it's a lot isn't it in terms of you know you talked about those people coming to a show the seven the ten the twelve
00:37:37
has that ever felt like and this is a strange word to use but does it has that ever felt like an emotional weight at
00:37:43
all because you're hearing these stories I sat with Jordan Peterson in fact and he talked about how people coming up to
00:37:48
him and telling them about their own Journeys their own emotional path to recovery or healing can sometimes feel
00:37:55
like a like an emotional way it's a lot to carry I feel the opposite really I feel
00:38:04
I feel connection it connects me to the art because I'm
00:38:10
not in the same place that I was in 2009 when I wrote that song my life looks very different
00:38:16
I think when I hear people say that they removed or they were transformed or that they felt some
00:38:22
inspiration or you know whatever it is um for one it's an it's an opportunity
00:38:28
and I think that maybe this is where Jordan and I differ is that um
00:38:33
I'm an addict this person coming up to me is an addict and there's an immediate connection there that I can't describe I
00:38:40
don't know what it is but it's just like oh you got the same oh my God we had the
00:38:45
same thing how are you doing with with your journey how are you doing with yours
00:38:50
um and it's not a weight it's more like ah thank you for you know
00:38:56
the the meet and greet of thank you so much appreciate it thank you so much like that's a way that's just going through the motions the actual moments
00:39:03
of people telling me those things when I'm like okay let's pause like we don't need to get through the line so fast
00:39:08
let's you know we'll get to the hotel when we get to the hotel let me be present with this person because
00:39:15
this conversation is changing my life I'm reminded why I wrote that record in the first place I'm
00:39:22
reminded of the beauty that happens when we share honestly like those are those
00:39:28
moments where I'm like thank you that's where I feel like I am the recipient of the recipient of a gift
00:39:34
um that's coming full circle because they're reminding me um of how important it is to
00:39:43
to share honestly regardless of how it looks regardless of how it's perceived
00:39:48
and I think that so much of the time there's this you know well if I tell my truth will I
00:39:54
be an outcast will I be accepted will I be kicked out of the tribe will I
00:39:59
um still be a part of we want to be a part of and
00:40:06
there's this thing that happens like what happened with your friend when you saw him finally when you saw him not is
00:40:13
the alcoholic that was [ __ ] [ __ ] up in the house or messing up your life or like why doesn't he just stop at you saw
00:40:19
him and his raw estate that's his that's raw Humanity right
00:40:25
there and when we demonstrate that when we can show others that we can be Raw
00:40:32
it just it inspires because other people like oh I can tell
00:40:38
my truth too and I'm not gonna get kicked out wow let me show up as my authentic self
00:40:45
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let me know how you find it over the last couple of how long maybe four months I've been changing my diet shall
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I say many of you have really been paying attention to this podcast will know why I've sat here with some incredible Health experts and one of the
00:41:56
things that's really come through for me which has caused a big change in my life is the need for us to have these
00:42:02
superfoods these green Foods these vegetables and then a company I love so
00:42:07
much and a company I'm an investor in and then a company that sponsors this podcast and I'm on the board of recently
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00:42:19
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00:42:25
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00:42:32
offers unfortunately it's only currently available in the US but I hope
00:42:37
pray that it'll be with you guys in the UK too so if you're in the US check it out it's an incredible product I've been
00:42:42
having it here in La for the last couple of weeks and it's a game changer social media you don't you don't really
00:42:48
do social media do you don't really in terms of like engaging I heard that you're not the biggest fan of social
00:42:54
media ah well that hurts my feelings because I
00:42:59
try pretty hard well I know I'm just kidding yeah um like no I do you know but you're not out there making you're not out there
00:43:05
every day talking about your life insurance behind the scenes yeah social media for me is part of my job
00:43:13
sometimes I'm great at it sometimes I mean I'm just this guy I'm like okay
00:43:18
what are we doing on you know social media now and then it's like Zoop but outside of work outside of work no I
00:43:24
mean I want to be present I want to be like you know it's like my kids show up today
00:43:31
and you know my videographer is like yo if you can get a little bit of iPhone footage with the
00:43:37
kids like walking around like that'd be awesome and I'm like you know asking my wife five minutes into Norwalk like hey
00:43:43
do you mind getting some footage of us walking like and I was like never mind never mind never mind it doesn't matter
00:43:49
like it doesn't matter what matters is that I'm with my kids and then I'm being
00:43:55
president and then I'm happy um and I'm and I'm off my phone because I've experienced both ways and it's a
00:44:00
balance right like there are times where I need to be on my phone and I need to be on social media and I need to be
00:44:06
handling whatever needs to get handled but um no I think it's it's about the
00:44:12
relationship that an individual has with social media and again it comes back to
00:44:18
intention is the intention for the most likes for the most engagement for the
00:44:24
most followed like if that's what it is then there's always going to be a void there that's looking to be filled and it
00:44:32
can be really toxic and I was talking to you know a couple a couple guys on on tour with us and and I you know 20 year
00:44:39
old 21 and just talk you know they're just constantly analyzing Tick Tock and
00:44:46
trying to figure out why did this post perform and this one didn't and maybe it's because we're over in Europe and
00:44:51
the Geo targeting and all of this and I'm like you guys are 20 like you're on tour in Europe like go out and have fun
00:44:58
explore like live outside of tick tock and
00:45:05
when this is all that they've known and that this in this platform is the reason why I know he exists and why his songs
00:45:14
have gotten out there it can be really challenging and I feel for the younger
00:45:19
generation and I feel for the older generation that's like yo the label's telling me that I have to do this and I
00:45:24
really don't want to be here at all but here I am post um
00:45:30
there's this there's a spiritual sickness that can be easily
00:45:35
um insidiously infiltrate our psyche if we're just here Non-Stop and and I just
00:45:43
don't want to be on that point of um you know those 20 year olds that are with you and you're
00:45:48
giving them that advice if you could um you know you've had this immense career and you know a lot of people have great
00:45:55
careers but yours has had so many twists and turns and twists and turns that the wisdom you've gained from every twist
00:46:00
and turn I believe is pretty profound that's why I really loved your conversation with Jay if you were to go back and be able to have a conversation
00:46:06
now with that young Ben at 14 years old
00:46:11
let's say right before that first um drink what advice would you impart on
00:46:17
him about life
00:46:25
it's tough to say and it's you picked an interesting time period because you picked before
00:46:31
and I don't think that I would have
00:46:37
I don't think that I would have warned that 14 year old maybe I would have I
00:46:43
think that but I don't think it would have done anything you know what I mean like maybe that
00:46:50
conversation would have looked like bro you're an addict you're never going
00:46:55
to be able to shut this off it's going to cause warm way more pain than good but at the same time
00:47:01
I can't discredit the experiences that I've had that have led me to this table right here in this moment and if it
00:47:08
wasn't for those mistakes um you know I have a different story I have
00:47:14
a different um Arsenal to pick from in terms of what moves me creatively and
00:47:21
um again repurposing that that pain but a lot of that pain
00:47:26
has hurt others has hurt close family members or my wife or best friends and
00:47:33
um those moments are hard to deal with I think if I could tell my 14 year old self
00:47:40
anything it'd be like bro you're gonna do what you're gonna do enjoy it find gratitude
00:47:47
a spiritual practice get outside of your own head get into the act of loving and being
00:47:54
there for others and just don't stop
00:48:00
I think that when I have stopped in my life when I have let up on on the gas not just like not stop in
00:48:07
terms of the work ethic but stop the spiritual practice that's
00:48:14
the thing that's always brought me back it's not the work it's not the amount of
00:48:21
Engagement it's not the algorithm it's not the YouTube streams it's none of that what actually
00:48:28
makes you happy and fulfilled find that thing and push into it as hard as you
00:48:34
can that's where the magic lives use the term spiritual practice to
00:48:40
describe what that is in in detail what what you mean by spiritual practice for you
00:48:46
well it's looked like many different things throughout my my time here you know in moments it's been a meditation
00:48:52
practice uh in moments it's been a yoga practice and moments it's been uh you
00:48:58
know many 12-step meetings throughout the week or step work or working with others but I think it's the art of just
00:49:07
getting outside of oneself and getting grounded in the moment and serving
00:49:13
others that has been my consistent consistent point of reference is you
00:49:19
know what when you feel spiritually sick reach out to someone else
00:49:26
whether it's picking up the phone or call that person that you've been avoiding or whatever just get outside of
00:49:31
your own self do the thing that makes you uncomfortable push into that because that's when life all of a sudden
00:49:38
becomes vibrant colors come back it becomes alive of like oh yes I I turn
00:49:43
this off I stop thinking about me and what I wanted in the moment and I just showed up for someone else and I found
00:49:51
that connection I found God in those moments I found that little piece that
00:49:56
reminded me of who I am just by showing up for for another
00:50:03
second ago you talked about when you're talking about other people you said that one of the hardest things is knowing
00:50:08
that you'd go on to hurt other people yeah who did you hurt
00:50:14
I've heard my parents for my wife probably the most um
00:50:20
I think anyone that I was being dishonest to you know
00:50:28
there's this double it's almost this double life that that needs to be lived and you know when I
00:50:35
would go off and I'd relapse and I'd you know I'd lie about it I wouldn't you know
00:50:40
relapsing is you know for me has always been a sneaky thing it's not like I'm like all of a
00:50:46
sudden like hey guys just so everyone knows I'm high again no this is like quiet hush
00:50:53
um I'm trying not to get caught and in those Seasons protecting that
00:50:59
and people are probably like yo what's going on with them like you know and I'm lying about that and
00:51:05
it's just a really toxic spot you know I'm gaslighting my wife
00:51:11
and and you know making her feel crazy I think that that's probably
00:51:16
if she was here asked what's the hardest part of being you know in a in a
00:51:23
partnership with an addict it's like those moments where he made me feel crazy it's not that I went back to the
00:51:30
drugs necessarily it's that um I made her feel like she was she was
00:51:36
crazy and that she was off because she was even questioning me and again turning
00:51:42
into someone that I'm like that's the worst version of myself that's the shittiest version of myself that's something that in my in my heart I know
00:51:50
to be um not the way that I want to treat anybody much less my significant other or my
00:51:56
best friends or my team but here I am again putting everything to the Wayside
00:52:02
just so I can can continue to use and um
00:52:08
it's a pretty dark place was there a point where you thought you might lose her
00:52:13
yeah yeah I mean
00:52:18
relapse in Coven you know the beginning of coven definitely was um
00:52:27
you know she kicked me out of the house and um I went to stay in my parents
00:52:33
condo and I remember just uh driving around aimlessly
00:52:41
like I'm gonna lose my kids gonna lose his marriage
00:52:47
and I think the thing that I think that's thing that scares me the
00:52:54
most is um if I'm being honest is
00:53:00
not being in my kids lives and
00:53:05
the devastation that that would potentially and that impact that it would a divorce would have on them
00:53:13
and the other flip side of it is I believe the kids are resilient and that
00:53:21
that pain can be repurposed and that you know half of the world is divorced and you
00:53:27
know Beauty can come out of it and does all the time and people end up in much
00:53:33
better situations out of divorce so it's I'm not against divorce but for me and my and my kids that was the thing that I
00:53:39
was holding on to was just this like I want our family to stay together and the fact
00:53:47
that I can I it would be because of me it would be because of my
00:53:54
self-centered instant gratification Need to Escape not
00:54:00
actually working my 12-step program ass like that I would be the reason
00:54:06
that this family broke up and I would have to to hold that and that weight the
00:54:12
idea of that weight still seems too much to to live with I
00:54:17
know I could do it but in that moment of that that last relapse that was definitely a
00:54:27
yeah it was it was a real scare
00:54:33
into um look what you're about to lose for what for this
00:54:38
this doesn't even make you happy it stopped working
00:54:43
right away it never worked it never worked for you it never worked it never
00:54:49
worked in the long run even if you had a good night or two in the big picture um
00:54:55
you have an allergy and that allergy is trying to kill you every time you pick it up
00:55:05
I've read um about a story when you were in a I think you're in a hotel room or something and your wife had taken a
00:55:10
pregnancy test and you would you just relapsed and she was in the toilet and you heard her crying through the door
00:55:17
yeah and you knew that you knew that those weren't happy tears yeah because
00:55:24
she was pregnant yeah can you take me back to that moment and just tell me exactly what happened dude
00:55:29
you were in it was a hotel I was there a house you were at our house okay yeah we were in our home and
00:55:36
um
00:55:41
yeah it's it's kind of a I mean it's the truth but it's um
00:55:50
yeah I'll just say it I mean I'm there I'm high she doesn't know it but she
00:55:56
knows it but you know she hasn't caught me yet and I just keep denying it and um
00:56:02
you know her period was late went got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like
00:56:09
begging to a God that I had no connection with please please
00:56:15
let this be a negative pregnancy test um
00:56:21
I'm not ready yet I'm not ready to be a dad I'm not ready to give up the drugs
00:56:26
I'm not ready to give up the drugs and I remember just like on the carpet
00:56:32
literally like praying and then I heard the tears
00:56:39
and I knew what that meant that she was pregnant
00:56:44
and I knew that that meant that I needed to get clean
00:56:53
and it was that moment of like that pull and I think that that's the hardest part
00:56:59
I haven't really spoke about this I think that's the hardest part about the disease of addiction is this pull is
00:57:06
the compulsion and the obsession for more yet knowing that more is the thing
00:57:12
that is leading to depression The Rock Bottom the not
00:57:17
wanting to be here anymore but it's this just that at odds and I
00:57:25
I felt that inner turmoil of just
00:57:32
I'm not ready to be a dad because I still want to get high
00:57:38
and I know I need to stop but I am just not ready yet and um
00:57:45
sure enough she was pregnant and I got clean
00:57:54
and she was pregnant with our first daughter Sloan so you know I think my my reservation is
00:58:02
just like Sloan watching this someday and being like Oh it's tight so dad was super high um on the carpet and didn't really want
00:58:10
me that's not true at all either I mean I was high and I at the time I didn't want her but when I got clean it was
00:58:16
like okay let's have this baby like I want to be a dad I want to be a dad who
00:58:22
um my kids never see loaded that they don't even know that part of me that
00:58:28
they don't have to be like oh Dad's dad's high again or Dad's hiding or mom kicked dad out of the house that they
00:58:34
don't even know that part of my my story um
00:58:40
that's what I wanted well if you come to learn about the Journey of life and and as it relates to
00:58:47
like and I said a second ago that the ups and the Downs the ups and the downs but you persevere and that's really all the
00:58:53
choice we have is to persevere and to find something meaningful to aim at today and then we'll get another chance
00:58:59
again tomorrow and we kind of like right off yesterday and the day before because with that side of our control now and
00:59:04
it's about what can I aim at today as you sit here today what are you aiming at like the past is the past like we
00:59:11
can't go back and change things it is what it is it's I think it's important to be aware of it and to admit it to ourselves to at least to learn some
00:59:18
wisdom from it but as you sit here today you're a you know as you woke up this morning this is today is in play yeah
00:59:24
what are you aiming at today and as we look off into the next sort of two decades of your life what
00:59:30
I maybe to a fault don't think about the future
00:59:35
what I'm thinking about is here
00:59:41
and then I'm like okay well let's zoom out from here I have a show tonight I want to put on a great show we're in
00:59:47
London um it's like 6 000 people sold out like I want to put on a great show
00:59:52
what is it going to take for me to put on a great show tonight um
00:59:57
my family's in town in London like I I just don't think like that yeah yeah and I
01:00:04
and I watched my wife who does and other people who do and it's like I have an inability
01:00:09
to think a big picture I have an exceptional ability
01:00:14
at focusing on the thing that is in front of me and I believe that it probably has to do with ADD and the way that my brain works
01:00:22
in the chemistry but it's what it has created a um a work ethic and a focus that you
01:00:29
know I can just be in the studio for 14 hours or I can be doing a music video and editing it and just keep going and
01:00:35
that's how I got good at my craft was putting in those long long hours where other people be like all right let's go
01:00:41
outside and I'm like no it's not done yet let's keep working
01:00:46
um but in terms of the next 20 years I don't know I don't know I I'm excited to
01:00:53
to Pivot you know I don't think that you know in a decade I'm gonna be like you know I
01:01:00
can't wait to play the show tonight I don't know you know we'll see what happens but what
01:01:06
I have realized and and part of this comes from um you know working on my golf clothing
01:01:13
company bogey boys which has been so fun such a labor of of love and to be able to design clothes
01:01:20
and watch people wear them and you know the the creative process that that has been particularly in covid
01:01:27
that's not going to be my only pivot it's just not it doesn't fulfill me in
01:01:32
the same way what does fulfill me with actual meaning is
01:01:39
is our youth program called The Residency in Seattle and thinking about actually you know getting a permanent
01:01:45
spot year long with Staffing where we have a
01:01:51
home for the residency that actually is inspiring to me that has meaning that has a lasting potential
01:01:59
that's deeper than like what color Polo is this going to be and I think that they can coexist because I do enjoy this
01:02:05
as well I love bogey boys I love golf but for the bigger picture
01:02:11
what do you want your legacy to be and not for the purpose of ego but like
01:02:16
how do you want to leave the greatest impact to make the greatest impact with our precious time
01:02:23
on this Earth we don't have much we don't know how much we have left it's finite it could be you know gone
01:02:29
tomorrow what can you hang your hat on and be like you know what I took a risk I got uncomfortable
01:02:36
I sacrificed I showed up I worked really hard I celebrated the wins I took the losses
01:02:44
on the chin and I kept going that's the kind of life I want and it's
01:02:50
kind of life I wanted today and it's the same life I want 20 years regardless of where that leads me
01:02:57
all those years ago your dad asked you a question at that family get-together he said
01:03:03
are you happy all these years later you're sat in this
01:03:08
table in London are you happy I think happiness is fleeting
01:03:14
and happiness comes and goes I think that what is sustainable is
01:03:19
meaning his purpose I'm not going to be happy every day
01:03:25
it's gonna go like this in this moment yes I am happy but but in general in in my life right now
01:03:33
am I happy I would say absolutely yes but there's trials and tribulations through
01:03:38
it all and what I have what I have found is that those moments of of
01:03:46
of being tested of sorrow of
01:03:54
betrayal of growth all of those turn into
01:04:00
progress if we can use them as medicine if we can accept them as blessings
01:04:05
rather than this idea this is one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is just this idea of like
01:04:11
victimhood of mentally going to a place of oh they wronged me or I'm a victim no
01:04:17
this is an opportunity this is a blessing that has been put in front of me and how I get to handle it now and
01:04:24
show up and it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm thinking of it about what are they doing
01:04:30
to me how could they do this just like we're talking about earlier it becomes
01:04:35
um medicine when I can show up from a place of I might not know why this is happening
01:04:41
but I have faith that I am absolutely at the right place right now
01:04:47
and I'm going to show up clean I'm not gonna Escape
01:04:54
I am going to be my true self tell the truth even when I don't want to
01:04:59
and um and keep it pushing that's what creates meaning and fulfillment and that is what
01:05:07
I'm after not momentary happiness there seems to be a real authenticity to your new album Ben and I think I mean
01:05:14
maybe that's even evidenced in the choice of the name to some degree because you've called it after yourself
01:05:20
um after the name that your parents gave to you and throughout the album I felt a
01:05:25
certain sense of I was gonna say I don't give a [ __ ] about like what I'm supposed to be to
01:05:31
some degree because it feels like all of you as opposed to
01:05:37
just a narrow part of you if that makes sense I don't know absolutely so like because and I I say that in part because
01:05:43
I listened to the first record and then I got like six or seven records down and it was just like
01:05:49
you hadn't the first record didn't sound like the sick record it was like a completely different kind of expression so I was thinking it's kind of someone
01:05:55
that has kind of just doesn't really give a [ __ ] about what they're supposed to yes make and they're making what they care about maybe that's my assessment of
01:06:02
it um how accurate was that what was your thinking going into this and how is this project different to all of the other
01:06:08
projects you've I I think that you summed it up beautifully and um
01:06:14
I love to be able to do all of that and just like walking in the studio and be like what what is speaking to me today
01:06:22
um you know maybe it's a dance song from 1984 maybe it's a you know I'm going
01:06:29
through something maybe it's a a pop song Maybe it's like I want to rap you know
01:06:35
you know with Primo scratching and it sounds like it's from the 90s like it's
01:06:40
whatever Direction I want to go is like I don't want to feel limited like oh but
01:06:46
that's not what you do no I I could do whatever I want to do um and you're right in that it's all me
01:06:53
like those are all bits and pieces of me and I think for a long time and that's
01:06:58
what I've always done kind of so how does it differ I don't know I feel like all maybe there's been a little bitco more cohesion on other albums but for
01:07:06
the most part that's what I've always done is those are all
01:07:12
those are all facets of my expression and um and I think it's confused people you
01:07:19
know because like it you know I'll have homies that are like yo you dropped Heroes and then you came out with this
01:07:26
like you know pop song with the music video directed by your daughter like what is going on and I'm like yep that's
01:07:32
what I did but doesn't authenticity confuse people anyway because Conformity doesn't convince no you're right
01:07:37
Conformity fits yes Conformity fits authenticity doesn't no and they're and they want me to be this version yeah and
01:07:45
you know radio wants me to be this version and you know this it's like
01:07:53
you're right I mean authenticity confuses people and and and once people
01:07:58
can box put it in a box package it be able to point to it that this is this
01:08:04
this is that it makes it a lot easier as an artist to
01:08:10
um or as a you know Observer to judge I don't like it because it's
01:08:16
this yeah versus like oh [ __ ] he did that but then he did that and I like that but I would never listen you know
01:08:22
whatever people are trying to figure it out I'm like I'm just gonna keep making the music that I've always made and
01:08:29
um again I have a faith now that it lands where it's supposed to land and
01:08:35
that process has been therapeutic for me of just detaching from detaching from
01:08:42
the outcome regardless of what it is just like just make it because you love it dude that's all I think that's a super you
01:08:49
know powerful lesson an important one that I think everyone without maybe realizing it can actually really relate
01:08:54
to I even have that a lot on this show where I will have such a diverse range of guests that on every conversation I
01:09:00
have there's a comment saying like get back to interviewing CEOs or why like
01:09:05
why is this personal why are you interviewing Sports people or whatever and there was maybe a point where I thought
01:09:11
it crossed my mind maybe they're right maybe I should just like stay in my Lane yeah but the authentic me goes I care
01:09:17
about so many [ __ ] things right I love sports I love businesses I love music I love psychology so can I just
01:09:24
run the experiment of being myself yeah and I refer to it as an experiment because there's a
01:09:30
perceived cost running that experiment you don't know the outcome are people just gonna stop listening running that experiment has been
01:09:36
most importantly okay it's worked but it's been great for me right as in like I can show up every day and like my life
01:09:42
regardless of whether people want to listen I can really enjoy this and that's how I can run this as a marathon
01:09:48
opposed to as a Sprint right right like when we can form it's like I've never seen it be sustainable for my guests
01:09:53
when they're like wearing a mask for too long I could do this for the rest of my life because I'm big myself do you see what I
01:09:58
mean absolutely um we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing
01:10:05
who they're leaving it for and the question that's been left for you by our previous guest is
01:10:14
there someone from your past that you should have a conversation with that you haven't had
01:10:19
if so why haven't you had it and what is that conversation
01:10:30
hmm that's a great question
01:10:36
as my parents get older
01:10:43
that there's probably some conversations there particularly with my dad that I
01:10:53
I go back and forth on having and uh you know
01:11:01
a relationship that I might want with him that I think that there's some fear around maybe he doesn't
01:11:07
desire with me
01:11:12
and um it's a tricky one with parents it's a tricky with family like having
01:11:18
deep conversations around what our relationship looks like or what
01:11:24
it looked like growing up or whatever um you know I'm from a family where you
01:11:31
know you kind of you smile through it I think there's a reason why I never heard my parents fight I think that there is a um
01:11:40
just be happy don't talk about it just be happy and uh
01:11:46
that hasn't been my experience on this Earth and I think that at times it's challenged them
01:11:52
um and then at a certain point you're like Yo dude you're dead 75 years old like
01:11:58
you know he is who he is and but I think if my dad my dad passed tomorrow
01:12:05
um I would probably feel like there was just did I really make an effort to connect
01:12:11
um on the level that that I intuitively wanted to
01:12:19
outside of his reaction to my words I completely relate to that
01:12:25
with my own dad yeah I completely relate and I don't know why I've never had the
01:12:30
conversation um I don't know what it is is it I don't think he's got the tools I've not got
01:12:35
the tools we've not got the tools right all three yeah oh yeah all three
01:12:42
um but you probably do have the tools
01:12:49
interesting because you can have I can have the tools with my girlfriend that's what I'm saying well we've like learned together how to do the tools but then I
01:12:55
look over at my dad and I go uh We've not figured out how to how to do this together because there's like
01:13:02
there you know we go through different there's like a Changing of the Guard almost it's like our parents
01:13:07
you know my parents were byproducts of of their parents and these are very
01:13:14
different times in Civilization and where we have gotten to in terms of talking about our emotions and and
01:13:22
mental health and being able to process masculinity or ego or these things you
01:13:27
know going to therapy or going to a 12-step meeting or you know really working on ourselves like
01:13:34
my dad's never done any of that internal work because that's
01:13:39
not what men did in his generation and you know sure there's exceptions but as
01:13:46
a whole um my dad's generation was different and I watched the younger generation from
01:13:52
from me and the way that they're fluid and love each other and and gender
01:14:00
is a social construct and these walls are getting torn down and I'm like I'm trying to keep up with it and you know
01:14:06
I'm having my own moments of just like wait how does this fit and what what is this and I feel old all of a sudden and
01:14:13
they're just like don't you get it like this is all fake and I'm and I'm trying to you know so I think that going to to
01:14:21
my dad there is a certain level of just communication about emotions that I'm really used to that he's not because he
01:14:29
probably never had those conversations with his dad his dad was like in the war
01:14:34
and had five kids and like just getting a meal on you know a meal to each one of those five boys in the house was a
01:14:41
struggle alone much less trying to talk about how you felt that wasn't part of the day but if he wasn't gonna respond
01:14:47
then and you had a chance to say those last words what would those words be
01:14:53
irrespective of response or impact or feedback you know what I've come to the
01:15:01
conclusion of is that
01:15:08
we're all doing the best that we can do
01:15:14
my dad's doing the best that he could do and instead of me because I have a lot of
01:15:20
friends that didn't have a dad at all their dad pieced out you know
01:15:28
and I think it's easy to particularly when you have kids
01:15:33
you have this idea of what your parents are going to be like as grandparents
01:15:39
and my grandparents or my parents are great grandparents I want them around more
01:15:44
not even for the child care just because I think that family is so important I
01:15:50
think that nuclear family is so important I think that we have um
01:15:55
you know we we come from like communities where
01:16:01
we helped raise children together and you know this porch looked out over to this porch
01:16:08
and we had actual tangible um human connection
01:16:15
and I I think that I've desired something in my
01:16:23
um in having kids and reflecting on my own childhood and what that was like
01:16:28
with my parents now that I'm a dad and I'm like oh I didn't do any of this
01:16:34
with my dad I didn't do damn what was my life like oh he you know but instead of looking at
01:16:41
it like in any way I am a victim because my dad
01:16:46
works so much or you know whatever it was it's like my dad was amazing he worked so much and he provided
01:16:53
and he sent my eyes to rehab and he sent me to college and he showed up with love and
01:17:01
instead of like the opposite of all of that like he's not doing this this this this this I want him to be this this
01:17:07
it's like my dad is who he is and um it's made me who I am
01:17:13
ensure I desire a closeness that I don't know if we'll ever get to you know we're in an open level of just hanging out
01:17:21
being okay with that um telling him how I really feel I don't know if that's important
01:17:28
um but what's preventing me from having that
01:17:34
conversation is that
01:17:43
it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have family is so layered we're not talking
01:17:49
about like a friend I met six years ago we're talking about this person that
01:17:55
brought me into this world our DNA the very fabric the
01:18:00
our identity this it's a lot there it's a lot there and um
01:18:08
I think sometimes I question if
01:18:15
how much do you push other people to get outside of their comfort zone I know it's not comfortable it's not comfortable for me it definitely
01:18:20
wouldn't be comfortable for him how much do you I mean what's preventing you from
01:18:27
talking with your dad at whatever level it is
01:18:33
I think it's probably just as to be honest I think it's like I'm gonna say things but I've just not tried in the
01:18:39
way that I should have it's just feeling like the bridge to doing that is not there
01:18:46
isn't what I mean by is like I don't think he's got the tools yeah and
01:18:53
I don't think I've got the tools with him yes I would say I
01:18:58
would say exactly the same thing that's what I mean you know because with my goal it's funny in Generations we all seem to be able to do that sideways and
01:19:04
down as you said so like we could you could probably have those conversations with your kids and with your kids we do all the time but as you've said when we
01:19:11
look up at our parents the generation they came from they didn't do podcasts like this where they think about their
01:19:16
feelings and emotions and stuff and mental health and so they didn't learn the tools and it's
01:19:21
like can you teach an old dog new tools use on my part because that's what I asked you the question about regardless
01:19:27
of how they respond yes if it if you because like my both of our dads aren't going to live forever and what's going
01:19:33
to live on after they've gone is it the regret right and I don't want the regrets I don't want the regret either so I just wanna I I'm I need to write a
01:19:40
letter also yeah and just send the [ __ ] letter yeah you know what I mean um
01:19:45
I guess this is a conversation for another time because yeah you got a show tonight at Wembley so
01:19:51
um I'm gonna let you go but um thank you so much for so many things thank you first and foremost for creating great
01:19:56
music that's brought joy to our lives but I think even more important than that music that has helped people in such a profound way not everybody does
01:20:02
that Beyond The Views like I think you've clearly come to learn that views are one thing and then impact is a
01:20:07
completely different thing and the impact that I just saw in that one video drug dealer is
01:20:13
would be profound enough life work for any one individual just in the comments section from what I saw beyond that
01:20:18
you've repeated that over and over again and even on your new album Ben within the first paragraph of the first song you're taking me back to your own
01:20:25
struggles which I think is as we've described that vulnerability you demonstrate in these conversations in your interviews and your music is the
01:20:32
doorway to connection and I don't think you'll ever even see the the extent to which you've allowed people to feel that
01:20:38
connection through your music through your art and through these conversations so that's what I want to thank you for and it's an honor to meet you and to get
01:20:43
to do this because I'm a fan of your work I'm a fan of the man and I'm a fan of of everything you've touched so thank you so much and thank you so much you're
01:20:51
amazing this is incredible and I really appreciate you having me you just you have a light to you that uh
01:20:58
it's very impressive and I get it thank you Ben [Music]
