00:00:00
we're going to talk about the office I promise stick around folks rain welcome
00:00:05
at the writer producer you know as Dwight Schrute assistant regional manager manager one of the most iconic
00:00:10
characters in TV history hold on Michael I am coming I experienced a lot of pain in my life
00:00:18
neglect abuse abandoned and then with anxiety and depression and addiction I
00:00:23
remember getting these anxiety attacks that would leave me shaking on the floor and sweating and I thought I was dying
00:00:29
waking up at three in the morning going why should I keep living but this is the Curious Thing I'm grateful for it
00:00:36
there's a reason why so many comedians come from painful backgrounds because
00:00:42
comedy shifts your perspective away from Pain and Trauma here's your choice you
00:00:47
kill yourself or do comedy and that was my path it was my greatest dream come true you said when I was in the office I
00:00:53
spent several years mostly unhappy because it wasn't enough I wanted more opportunities I wanted more money and as
00:00:58
long as we want to promote the ego satisfaction we will never be happy we all have a shadow and it's always there
00:01:05
it's self-important and righteous and entitled but I'm not going to get rid of
00:01:10
those aspects of Myself by keeping that shadow at arm's length you need to embrace and accept and love one's Shadow
00:01:17
sit the shadow on the lap almost like a ventriloquist dummy hello you Diary of a
00:01:23
CEO get a new t-shirt idiot that's a wrap
00:01:29
I think this is fascinating I looked at the back end of our YouTube channel and it says that since this channel started
00:01:36
69.9 of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the Subscribe button so
00:01:42
I have a favor to ask you if you've ever watched this Channel and enjoyed the content if you're enjoying this episode right now please can I ask a small favor
00:01:48
please hit the Subscribe button helps this channel more than I can explain and I promise if you do that to return the
00:01:54
favor we will make the show better and better and better and better and better that's the promise I'm willing to make
00:02:00
you if you hit the Subscribe button do we have a deal [Music]
00:02:09
let's start with your context um I always think the the earliest years are the most important so could you take
00:02:15
me back to your earliest context and give me the factors that I need to understand to understand you sure a
00:02:23
couple of key pieces in my background that have made me who I am and uh led me
00:02:28
to lead the life that I live are my mom uh took off
00:02:36
when I was a year and a half I lived with my with my dad and we were members of the Baha'i faith
00:02:45
uh which in a nutshell is the newest of the world's religions uh there's about
00:02:51
six million Baha'is around the globe it's the second most widespread religion so wherever you go in the world there's
00:02:57
going to be Baha'is you know you go to Mongolia or Thailand or you know Botswana or whatever there's going to be
00:03:03
Baha'i communities and after my dad had been kind of essentially abandoned or
00:03:10
felt abandoned they got divorced uh we moved to the jungles of Nicaragua when I
00:03:16
was three years old here was this abandoned kind of toddler kid living in the literally the jungle
00:03:24
uh and my dad was an abstract painter and
00:03:29
science fiction writer and Baha'i and uh that's that's how I grew up and then
00:03:35
when it was kind of around kindergarten time first grade time we moved back to Washington State and
00:03:42
um those are some key pieces yeah in your 40s you started to look back at your childhood and understand I heard
00:03:50
this in an interview you did I think with Chase Jarvis yeah on his show and one of
00:03:56
the things you said is when I look back at my childhood it was filled with depression and anxiety that you probably didn't it seems like you didn't realize
00:04:03
at the time but hindsights giving you that Clarity yeah what were the Hallmarks of that what were the symptoms of that and what
00:04:09
do you have any understanding of the causes of that at such a young age yes uh 2 uh two years of therapy has
00:04:17
given me a lot of insights into the causes of that so you know you've got an
00:04:22
abandoned toddler that that'll that'll [ __ ] you up um I don't know if I can swear
00:04:29
um do uh do Brits swear yeah yeah the funny ones uh and then um
00:04:39
you know it was this weird kind of uh gaslighting mind [ __ ] because I just
00:04:45
spent five minutes describing the Baha'i faith right and this these beautiful ideas and prayers and meditations and
00:04:52
about world peace and finding love and connection and service and then in my family my dad remarried
00:05:01
uh my stepmom uh who pretty much raised me and they lived in a Loveless marriage
00:05:07
a hollow empty marriage so I come back from the jungles of Nicaragua at five or
00:05:13
six my dad's remarried we're living in Suburban Seattle and Washington State and we are going to all these Baha'i
00:05:20
meetings we're singing we're doing Kumbaya we're holding hands we're praying we're meditating we're reading Holy Scripture from all over the world
00:05:27
and talking about love and yet here's this Loveless
00:05:32
shell of a house so that's what I grew up in so you know addiction is something
00:05:39
that I've I've struggled with I've struggled with depression I've struggled with anxiety uh I've struggled on a lot
00:05:47
of different uh levels in my life a lot of alienation and uh it's born of this
00:05:54
petri dish that I grew up in maybe I was also wired for it you know I have alcoholics that run on both sides of my
00:06:01
family for Generations but uh that'll that'll mess you up what have
00:06:07
you learned about the nature of childhood trauma and how delicate children are I've learned so much from
00:06:13
speaking to people on this podcast about it and how you know if I listen to too many of these
00:06:18
episodes I might be scared to be a parent because it's so interesting how such a small interpretations can leave
00:06:24
really um Lasting Impressions on a child about the nature of the world I sat with Gabel
00:06:29
Mata and he's talked about how children are basically narcissists and how they interpret everything is about them so
00:06:34
there's an argument over there a baby will think it's it's about the baby but
00:06:39
what have you learned about through your years of therapy but also your own experiences well I experienced a lot of pain in my
00:06:47
life uh and a lot of suffering uh with anxiety and depression and addiction and
00:06:54
as I kind of dove into recovery and to the therapeutic process I can pin that
00:07:00
squarely on a lot of you know gross imbalances and Trauma that I suffered as
00:07:06
a child so there's that um we all have that to some degree and
00:07:13
it's important to excavate and honor uh the pain that we went through and the
00:07:19
and the lies that we were told the gaslighting we might have undergone um there's there's religious trauma that
00:07:27
we undergo as well there's all kinds of different traumas that we suffer and
00:07:32
this is the this is the Curious Thing I'm grateful for it because you know what
00:07:38
if I had had a happy well-balanced childhood I you know I don't know what my career
00:07:44
would have been but it certainly wouldn't have been an actor and it certainly wouldn't have been a successful actor so these
00:07:51
these confluences of of pain and and difficulty and and abuse and neglect
00:07:58
um they caused me a lot of suffering later on but at the same time they
00:08:03
caused me to be driven to try and be the best version of myself they set me on a spiritual path
00:08:09
uh to really deeply explore the world's spiritual traditions and to try and
00:08:16
connect with my higher power and to go on a journey of self-discovery and then to take what I've learned and to share
00:08:21
that with others and they they made me funny so there's a really interesting
00:08:28
thing I heard uh Dr uh Arthur Brooks from Harvard University who you should have on the show uh speak about uh and
00:08:37
he talked about how the opposite of pain and Trauma is is humor he's he was
00:08:43
saying like for instance if you're feeling uh depressed let's say we all
00:08:49
know you fill that with gratitude and when you have a gratitude journal and you share gratitude experience gratitude
00:08:55
meditate on gratitude it the other stuff evaporates when you when you shift your focus and your
00:09:01
perspective to what you're grateful for what brings you hope and joy and purpose and meaning even if it's a small thing
00:09:08
like you know this delicious cup of tea right here so the same uh mechanism Works in comedy
00:09:16
that and there's a reason why so many comedians come from painful backgrounds
00:09:22
because comedy is what you plug in to shift your
00:09:28
perspective away from Pain and Trauma just like gratitude takes you away from from depression so you'll see time and
00:09:36
time again these amazing you know the great comedians of the age you know and
00:09:43
how much suffering they underwent in their lives but
00:09:48
comedy became the the necessary uh thing to plug in to their perspective in order
00:09:56
to carry forward it's like uh here's your choice you kill yourself or do comedy and
00:10:04
um and then they do comedy and and you know you think about so many of the great ones uh Jim Carrey you think about
00:10:10
Robin Williams they talk about mental health and common we did a for soul pancake we did a documentary
00:10:16
um called laughing matters about the intersection of comedy and mental health and so in this sense too I'm grateful
00:10:24
for what I went through because I wouldn't be here today having this incredible conversation with you had I
00:10:29
not gone through that those those difficulties that neglect
00:10:34
that abuse and that gaslighting that I underwent as a kid when you say the word
00:10:40
abuse you mean the gaslighting yeah you know I don't want to get into
00:10:48
stories there was you know there was some there was there was lots of different kinds of
00:10:54
abuse yeah yeah if I if I'd met you 15 16 years old who would I who would be the man that I met
00:11:01
at that point when your mother came back into your life you said you needed her at that point at 15 or 16 I was uh gawky
00:11:07
and self-hating and um uh innocent and completely cut off
00:11:14
from my emotions and had my dad and stepmom had zero emotional tools uh the
00:11:21
only kind of expression of emotion that I experienced in my household was rage and uh and then either Rage or like
00:11:30
again these spiritual Baha'i Gatherings where we were singing and praying and meditating so it was
00:11:37
um but the idea of you know sadness frustration disappointment uh
00:11:44
all these quote unquote negative emotions and how to navigate them there were I have I had zero tools
00:11:50
so I'll never forget sitting down was one of the first meetings with my mom and I was at a Denny's restaurant in
00:11:57
Yakima Washington and uh and she said
00:12:02
rain you seem very tightly wound what's what's going on how is your heart
00:12:10
and I just started sobbing I just started bawling I mean
00:12:16
it was pretty unsightly at the at the Denny's um uh waiting for the Grand Slam breakfast
00:12:23
and um there's a corporate sponsor for you potential uh and just like that kind of crying of
00:12:30
the kind of the heaving sobs and that's what I'm talking about that's the kind
00:12:36
of connection that I needed like finally someone was asking me what was in my heart you know and
00:12:43
that began a kind of a process of having conversations about human
00:12:49
emotions um that I was so ignorant of that we're
00:12:55
all so ignorant of and it helped me immensely when you sit down the the animation you
00:13:03
understood was like rage and then this real happiness at the spiritual gatherings
00:13:10
it made sense the gaslighting because it's such a confusing message to send a young person it's a this juxtaposition
00:13:16
between like uh yeah yeah
00:13:22
in fact I remember I remember times uh and I don't really blame my stepmom
00:13:27
for this because my dad was not a good husband to her and there was a lot that
00:13:32
was out of balance and and he could be incredibly narcissistic and
00:13:38
um but I remember having we would have a Baha'i Gathering let's say at our house and people were going to come over and
00:13:43
we were going to pray or we were going to study holy writings or whatever people do at buy Gatherings and uh they
00:13:49
would have a fight and she would be raging in the kitchen and slam dishes down and break the dishes and they would
00:13:56
be fighting and then but ding dong the people would come over like hi I brought flowers and here's a here's some cookies
00:14:03
and and they would come in and my step bomb would then march across the living room
00:14:09
to the bedroom door and go so bam and slam the bedroom door and the people
00:14:14
would be there in the doorway and my dad would go come on in thanks so much for coming
00:14:21
and there was never any kind of uh uh you know you know acknowledging what had just
00:14:28
happened and that was and so for an eight-year-old nine-year-old ten-year-old being in that milieu you're like what the hell is going on is this
00:14:35
how people act is this how we're supposed to act we have all these emotions but we don't talk about them and and then we go and we and we pray
00:14:43
together so you know this led me to a very long period of time where I was
00:14:48
completely alienated from my faith in my in my 20s and um I didn't want anything
00:14:54
to do with religion or spirituality certainly not morality um because I just saw the hypocrisy in
00:15:01
it and that's when I really started undergoing
00:15:06
uh a spiritual crisis a mental health crisis things started breaking down for
00:15:13
me and that's when I decided to kind of re-examine these ideas as a potential
00:15:19
way out as a potential path forward for my own transformation for my personal healing and and I was ultimately able to
00:15:28
come back to the religion of my youth and find great peace and Solace and meaning in it
00:15:35
after a long journey through my 20s and early 30s that tumor and experience from
00:15:41
your youth how does that play into you becoming an actor because you said you
00:15:46
wouldn't have been you're grateful because you don't think you would have been an actor or the actor that you are without that experience what is the I'm
00:15:55
trying to figure out where acting fit into that you talked about comedians using comedy as a as kind of like a life
00:16:01
raft away from their pain why was acting the thing that found rain
00:16:07
I don't know and there's the genetic component as well that my birth mother was also an actor and interested in
00:16:12
acting I don't know exactly um even before I thought like
00:16:18
oh you could be an actor or you could make a living in an actor or you could train as an actor like I didn't even
00:16:24
know like I want to do that but it's like whatever that is is magical and
00:16:30
amazing and I was drawn to it like a magnet so I don't know and then you know I I took
00:16:36
my first acting class um we had moved to Chicago from Seattle
00:16:41
and I went to a high school that had a really good theater program and I took my very first acting class and uh I did
00:16:49
a scene where uh you're supposed to pretend that you're in your bedroom and
00:16:55
that no one's watching right so I put on this Elvis Costello song mystery dance I
00:17:00
brought in my my record player from home and I brought in some stuff from my room and I put on the record of mystery Dance
00:17:07
by Elvis Costello and I started just thrashing around and just being ridiculous and lip syncing and jumping
00:17:13
around and flopping on the floor and stuff like that and it I was a brand new student this was like in the first week
00:17:19
at this new school and it brought the house down and the the 15 to 16 year old that I
00:17:26
said that was kind of pimply and gangly and emotionally cut off and self-hating
00:17:33
um all of a sudden people were patting me on the back back and punching me in the
00:17:39
shoulder and saying oh my God that was so great and high-fiving me and all of these like cute girls from junior year
00:17:46
in high school were like oh where are you from you're from Seattle amazing will you come sit with us at our lunch
00:17:51
table and like and and here I was this kid from Suburban Seattle where I had
00:17:57
been on the chess team and played the bassoon and been on Model United Nations and I'd barely talk to a girl and uh and
00:18:06
then I was like all right I'm in whatever this is I want this I'm good
00:18:11
this is it forget all that other stuff screw the bassoon screw the chess team I'm in with the drama Geeks and uh and
00:18:20
that was my path so so part of it is not so Noble part of it is
00:18:25
um I went where there was acceptance where there was love where I had some skill I could make people laugh and where I got
00:18:33
attention from the opposite sex hello
00:18:38
most of us um 20 years old you graduate with a degree in drama ish 20 23 23 close and then you speak of
00:18:47
1991 when you're 25 25 years old that's really when you had your as you say your spiritual crisis hmm
00:18:55
was there a catalyst for that it seems to it seems that at that point in your life is when you started experiencing anxiety attacks in a really
00:19:01
debilitating way was there a catalyst for that was there anything in your life that was was absent or was it just do
00:19:08
you think it was just things catching up on you from your earliest years
00:19:13
um well I don't know about a catalyst but I will paint the picture that I'm
00:19:18
out of drama school I'm getting a few little acting jobs here and there but they're not paying anything I'm living
00:19:24
with a friend in an abandoned beer brewery in Brooklyn uh essentially kind of legally squatting
00:19:31
but we didn't have heat we didn't have a shower there were rats scuttling around
00:19:37
and I was working in this bar where I get off work at 4am and uh I had
00:19:43
a roommate and we were living out there and I was really directionless I started
00:19:49
really experimenting with a lot of drugs and alcohol and
00:19:54
I was pretty rudderless and um uh and I started getting hit with really
00:20:03
crippling anxiety attacks so I wasn't in the most healthy living environment
00:20:09
right so but at the same time I remember getting these anxiety attacks that would
00:20:14
leave me literally shaking on the floor and sweating and I thought I was dying and I was like about to call 9-1-1 like
00:20:21
five different times and heart palpitations sweating
00:20:28
and um I I talked to a doctor at NYU
00:20:33
about them and they said oh these are just anxiety attacks so I knew that that's what they were but I didn't really know anything about them and uh I
00:20:41
started getting really depressed and um so there wasn't really like an event but
00:20:46
circumstances provided the perfect environment for kind of a mental health breakdown of someone who's 25 years old
00:20:53
and how long did that chapter that parent of your life lost while you were having anxiety attacks and you were
00:20:58
rudderless um I would say five or six years
00:21:04
yeah there were some things got better I
00:21:09
started working a little bit more uh I had a relationship with my
00:21:14
girlfriend who's now my wife we've been together for 32 years and that was great
00:21:19
but even that even a better apartment and a nice relationship couldn't save me
00:21:25
from some of what was going on and we didn't in the 90s we didn't really have words
00:21:30
for a mental health breakdown or mental health issues or crisis you know it was
00:21:36
and people didn't really go to therapy you didn't really you couldn't really afford it it was that was like for rich
00:21:41
people like Woody Allen or something um so uh uh it it stayed things got nominally
00:21:49
better but I still uh was uh pretty uh depressed and and frustrated
00:21:56
and overwhelmed and just generally alienated the kind of
00:22:02
waking up at three in the morning with just wide awake staring at the ceiling going like
00:22:07
what the [ __ ] does life mean why am I here what you
00:22:12
know why should I keep living what's how do I find meaning and
00:22:20
um just that that just anguish and disconnection and a really core level
00:22:28
you ask yourself that question why should I keep living yeah um
00:22:34
and it wasn't at that point I mean I've had some suicidal ideation over the years that wasn't a time when I was
00:22:40
actively thinking about ending it but it really was kind of again one of these life's big questions life's deep
00:22:45
questions that I've been kind of poking at in my various books of like why
00:22:51
should we keep living what what is the purpose is it because one of the odd
00:22:57
things Stephen was that I was in certain regards living a life beyond my wildest
00:23:03
dreams here was that kind of abused and gas-lit kid with low self-esteem from
00:23:10
Suburban Seattle um who kind of hated himself and and really had trouble fitting in socially
00:23:18
in any way shape or form here I am living in New York City beautiful girlfriend working as an actor
00:23:24
in the theater not making much money and it was only fitfully but still that's a
00:23:30
big leap to go from where I was and and yet I wasn't happy so there was this odd
00:23:37
disconnect because I think societally we're taught like hey you find the thing
00:23:43
you love to do you go study it you put in your time you work at it and you
00:23:48
you're gonna start working and yeah you're gonna start slow but it's going to build and then you're gonna find
00:23:53
incredible joy and purpose and meaning in your work and I was doing that work
00:23:58
in the theater and I was getting to be an actor and I was getting paychecks as an actor which is an incredible uh
00:24:05
experience uh but I was still chronically dissatisfied and it didn't
00:24:11
make any sense because Society had been telling me this thing for a decade or two and
00:24:18
I I sh I felt like I shouldn't be this uh
00:24:23
chronically dissatisfied but I am when did I reach its peak
00:24:30
um it's hard to say it it came in waves throughout my mid-20s and and early 30s
00:24:38
and it that's what prompted me and this is why pain can be such a valuable
00:24:44
teacher and in fact Arthur Brooks just had a column today out in the Atlantic where he was talking about pain and
00:24:51
anxiety and depression does not mean that you have a mental health issue those are
00:24:56
those are normal standard uh uh aspects of being a human being so but
00:25:05
my pain prompted me to go on a spiritual Quest and I'm really grateful for that like I said
00:25:13
to go on a spiritual Quest depression and pain and anxiety and those things were signals telling you
00:25:19
something something's out of balance how are you going to bring yourself into balance how are you going to make sense
00:25:25
of all this and at the time there weren't podcasts on positive psychology and there weren't
00:25:31
I mean I guess there were some self-help books but I didn't really know about them because of my uh background because
00:25:37
of my childhood I thought well perhaps because I've abandoned anything and everything to do
00:25:43
with God and spirituality and religion maybe that's where I have lost my way
00:25:49
and maybe I need to re-explore those Avenues and maybe I could find personal
00:25:54
meaning and serenity uh by exploring
00:26:00
spiritual ideas so it was a long process it was a good eight or ten year process
00:26:06
but I'm I'm grateful that my pain took me along that path one of the
00:26:13
things that I think brings spirituality and some of these big questions into focus is
00:26:19
death something you talk about in your new book Soul boom and something you've
00:26:24
spoken about previously as well something that I've often pondered about um I think it's one of the things that
00:26:29
really made me go in search of answers deep questions at a very young age um you talk I think it's in chapter
00:26:35
three of your book but I listened on the audiobook so it's chapter not six on the audiobook um about the passing of your father
00:26:42
how did how did that bring into Focus spirituality meaning and some of these
00:26:48
big questions of life well I think if you're going to look at
00:26:54
spirituality one of the top three big questions is what happens when we die and of course we don't know but just
00:27:01
because we don't know or will never know um does that mean that we shouldn't explore that question
00:27:07
uh hint no so uh it's something it's a topic and a
00:27:15
theme and a question I had thought about a lot I had spoken about I'd researched
00:27:20
um and pondered deeply but obviously and I had had you know some people that I knew
00:27:26
that had died along the way of course but when my father died about three years ago
00:27:32
um that made a profound impact and really prompted me to write the book Soul boom
00:27:39
because I had one of these key kind of transcendent experiences spiritual
00:27:47
experiences which was in
00:27:52
uh we my dad died of heart disease he was
00:27:57
getting a quadruple bypass surgery and he just couldn't make it he didn't they didn't have
00:28:02
any way to repair the damage in his heart and anyways it was we thought he was going to get through
00:28:08
the surgery and he died so it was in we knew it was risky but it was uh it was
00:28:13
it was not a predicted death and uh my
00:28:19
his current wife his widow and myself were in the hospital with him and
00:28:25
we had to essentially unplug him and um it was devastating and terrifying and
00:28:35
oddly enough strangely cliche at the same time and I couldn't help but uh and maybe this is
00:28:42
is that that trauma-based comedic kind of uh aspect of my of my uh
00:28:51
of myself that I I just kept witnessing myself in the situation where my father
00:28:56
was dying there's a heart machine going beep beep beep beep there's a little oxygen machine going
00:29:01
and there's doctors and nurses walking around with their squeaky shoes and the linoleum floors and I was like wow this
00:29:08
is just like one of those Hospital shows I just kept thinking like this is just like er Gray's Anatomy like wow
00:29:16
um it's like it's so cliche but we had to unplug him
00:29:23
um he was going to be dead within an hour and uh we were sobbing and I looked
00:29:29
at his Gray body there on the table and you know I
00:29:34
saw all these aspects of my dad that I loved you know the one eyebrow hair kind of poking out and you know the mole on
00:29:42
his arm and the way his hands are and uh his hair kind of messy and
00:29:50
uh was filled with such love and such heartbreak and at the same time
00:29:56
at seeing his lifeless body I was like um this isn't him this isn't my dad
00:30:04
this is the vessel that carried my dad Robert Wilson and his beautiful heart
00:30:11
and spirit and his dynamism and his creativity his light as it were is no
00:30:18
longer here but that's his reality this body is just a shell it's a vessel it's
00:30:24
an avatar and and I also didn't experience it as oh
00:30:29
he has it's been snuffed out like a candle it just seemed very clear like oh
00:30:35
it has passed on it's somewhere else now and here is is
00:30:40
his body and that was such a profound spiritual experience that I knew
00:30:45
intellectually from my study but it's one of those learnings that kind of has
00:30:51
to hit you in the gut to make you really understand it and go oh and I remember that amazing quote
00:30:59
that I often pull out from uh father tahar de Chardon a Jesuit priest who
00:31:05
said famously we are not human beings having a spiritual experience we Are
00:31:11
Spiritual Beings having a human experience and that quote which I've always loved I
00:31:18
saw just evidenced with my father oh he's a spiritual being he had a human
00:31:24
experience for 79 years in this body and now his spiritual reality has passed
00:31:32
and moved on and this is one of the essential messages of
00:31:37
Soul boom is that we Are Spiritual Beings we're having this incredible Human Experience look at us having this incredible dialogue right now and then
00:31:44
I'm gonna go get an Uber and then I've got to go do some voiceovers then I'm gonna go play tennis with a friend and I'm having this you know I'm having a
00:31:51
relationship with my wife and with my son I'm learning I'm growing I'm being challenged and uh it's magnificent and
00:31:58
here's my my fleshy somewhat corpulent 57 year old body that has done I've done
00:32:05
pretty well by it's ridiculous enough so I get to take my shirt off occasionally as Dwight and people can laugh at my
00:32:11
absurdly pale and oblong torso and I'm fine with it it's all for comedy right
00:32:16
and parts of my body are starting to break down I've got like half Hearing in
00:32:21
my in my left ear and I've got mild sleep apnea and I have to wear a mouth Appliance that juts my jaw forward and I wake up
00:32:28
in the morning and I go and I place it on the side of the bed and here I am this spiritual being
00:32:34
having a human experience as rain Dietrich Wilson
00:32:40
this is fabulous but this is part of what we need to recognize and this could
00:32:45
help people this can help people with their mental health struggles is an
00:32:50
understanding that where we're radiant luminescent precious shards of the
00:32:57
Divine inhabiting these these fleshy meat suits for hopefully 89 to 100 years
00:33:03
and struggle and suffering and anxiety it just comes with the game baby it's
00:33:09
just part of the game talk about a friend called Dave yeah David or Dave who also passed quite
00:33:15
suddenly um and his handling of that in particular um surprised you in many ways
00:33:22
oh Dave one of my best friends um David vonenkin who's a television
00:33:27
director and film director brilliant guy uh wonderful human being and he just got
00:33:33
diagnosed out of out of nowhere with stage four stomach cancer I mean just like out of nowhere
00:33:40
mid 50s and uh essentially a death sentence so I got to spend a lot of time with him
00:33:46
in his last year and a half after that diagnosis and we did weekly Beach walks
00:33:51
and he said to me several times and he would just grab my arm and he would say
00:33:58
rain it's just static it's all just static
00:34:03
you've got to get the static out of your life the emails the meetings the the career
00:34:10
the the appointments the the driving the traffic the phone calls the zooms it's
00:34:17
all just static it's all noise and that really resonated with me and I know
00:34:23
a lot of people have mentioned that in the book because we do experience our life as this kind of like buzz of like
00:34:28
appointments and choppings and zooms and a point and and bills to pay and and
00:34:33
whatnot and uh that was profoundly impactful
00:34:39
um and I would always encourage David to it's a tricky situation you know when
00:34:45
someone's dying I don't want to like God forbid lecture him on on death or
00:34:51
thinking about it but I would always just turn it a little bit toward a more profound discussion about
00:34:56
you know the soul and the journey of the soul and the and the movement of of the
00:35:02
spirit you know beyond our this Corporal 3D uh surround sound experience of being
00:35:09
a human being to the Realms Beyond um but he like many people
00:35:16
um he he he got a little stuck in a way that made me sad because he really just
00:35:22
focused on fighting the cancer which is super super important right so he devoted all of his waking time and
00:35:28
energy to to research and treatment and diet and everything to fight the cancer which is super important and I don't
00:35:34
blame him but um it was pretty terrifying for him to consider mortality and the implications
00:35:41
thereof he had a daughter and um but I'll never forget him talking
00:35:46
about static in that way and I find that very to be also very clarifying you know
00:35:53
in my daily meditation practice like How can I
00:35:59
again the Buddha uses the image a lot of the lotus flower you know it's floating on top of the swamp you know these
00:36:05
beautiful lotuses and there's the swamp and the mire and the bugs and the dirt and the and this beautiful flower Rising
00:36:13
above and how can we in our own little way be a Lotus Flower and the rest of
00:36:19
the swamp is is our daily static the rest of the swamp the alternative
00:36:25
way of living to everything you've just described what is the alternative way of living so you know you've got the the
00:36:32
realization that everything is static and the understanding that we Are Spiritual Beings having a human
00:36:38
experience yeah what is the opposite of that that you see when you walk the streets or You observe people like what
00:36:46
is the opposite way of living to that and why is it causing suffering Thoreau talked about the unexamined life
00:36:51
is not worth living why did he say that and what did he mean by that well it's
00:36:56
been a long time since I read Walden Pond um and the night throws bent in jail but
00:37:02
I love the transcendentalists because that is really kind of the first authentic uh American spiritual movement
00:37:10
and uh this idea that uh we're seeking
00:37:15
uh Transcendence that were that was kind of the first movement that really acknowledged like we're Spiritual Beings
00:37:21
so I think you know it's the unexamined life I think um living in the static living in the swamp
00:37:28
is not taking the time to uh honor
00:37:34
the sacred Divinity of aspects of our life and
00:37:42
you know I I have a when you study meditation and you and you participate in meditation there's
00:37:49
this strange thing that happens where you realize that you the reality of you
00:37:56
is the Watcher The Observer when you meditate
00:38:01
your thoughts are still bouncing around you know the Buddhists call it the monkey mind right so you're about your
00:38:06
thoughts are bouncing around you might have some anxiety and worry like oh is that person going to accept my offer on this or is this thing going to work out
00:38:12
or oh is my wife still mad at me or whatever so you have this emotional dissonance and you have this kind of
00:38:19
intellectual uh dissonance and then in the meditative State you're just witnessing that it's almost like you're
00:38:25
floating above it and looking down and then you realize like oh my reality is
00:38:31
not my thoughts my reality is not my feelings my reality is not even just my body and the
00:38:38
sensations that my body takes in there is some kind of aspect of the eye
00:38:44
that is the witnesser and
00:38:50
it's getting in touch with that that allows us to get above the static so
00:38:55
meditation is very important to me the next step of meditation for me is connecting with
00:39:01
the ultimate Divine you can do it in prayer I have a chapter in the book called The Notorious God
00:39:08
getting into God so um
00:39:13
yeah that that's one way to rise above the noise and the static and the swamp
00:39:20
is in that practice and then I mentioned at the very beginning like
00:39:26
recognizing the sacred and the Divine um and we can do this it's certainly easy
00:39:33
to do in the beauty of nature it's also when you have children and you're and you're raising a kid you kind of see
00:39:39
that the beauty in the in the kids Natural Curiosity and wonder and open-heartedness
00:39:45
and then you experience it in in human interaction you know I think I view this
00:39:51
conversation as sacred this is a this is a sacred conversation where seeking to understand each other
00:39:57
um you're you're being a service to your incredible audience they want to learn about how to make themselves better
00:40:03
people how to start a business how to maximize their health how to go on a on
00:40:09
a spiritual journey as a human being they want to learn all this and you're providing the the the way in to them so
00:40:17
we get to have this conversation people may not agree with what I'm saying but it might spark something and you know
00:40:23
gratitude and witnessing the sacred and that meditative practice of kind of
00:40:29
rising above our thoughts and feelings um that those are those are tools that we
00:40:36
can use to make our lives better and and richer if someone is on the the outsides
00:40:41
of this conversation and they they don't really understand what spirituality is and they've not really gone on the journey that you've been on what uh what
00:40:48
kind of questions would you pose to them to help them open their mind
00:40:56
so if someone's listening to this they find the word spiritual to be kind of hippie stuff and they they're not really
00:41:01
you know they managed to get this far in the conversation but they don't really understand spirituality what it means they managed to get this [ __ ] don't turn
00:41:07
off the party yeah yeah there's more good stuff coming we're going to talk about the office I promise stick around
00:41:13
folks way too many cameras here is it I think there's nine or something
00:41:20
um what would you say to those people that I just think of a guy driving his like Lorry up the country he's put the
00:41:25
podcast on and he's he doesn't really know what spirituality is doesn't really understand it doesn't understand why
00:41:30
that he would therefore need it in his life yeah that's a great question I don't know
00:41:37
that I have an answer for that I mean I guess you know the dictionary
00:41:42
definition of of spirituality that I use is uh a focus on the non-material
00:41:48
aspects of life so that's our heart that's our our soul
00:41:55
it's our connection it's the light that we bring it's
00:42:01
kind of a a connection to what I would call those uh Divine qualities that we
00:42:06
all carry uh to some degree or another um spiritual virtues you could call them
00:42:14
you know love compassion honesty humility these are qualities that don't
00:42:20
necessarily serve us as human animals so there there's something uh they're not
00:42:26
about the quest for power they're not about the Quest for status and comfort they allow us to kind of rise above
00:42:34
uh our kind of humdrum Human Experience so that's what I would that's how I
00:42:40
would Define spirituality something in that realm but I would say that um
00:42:46
listen we all want more love in our life right and love is the most precious and
00:42:51
beautiful resource and I would say maybe you don't believe in spirituality but or
00:42:57
maybe you don't believe in God but you can focus on love and we can all focus
00:43:02
on love that's something we all have an experience of and so we want to increase love in our
00:43:07
life that's that's increasing spirituality it's the same thing like
00:43:13
um I had a profound experience of love
00:43:19
um when my son was born he almost died it was very traumatic birth
00:43:24
an ER room with blood in the middle of the night and a you know really
00:43:30
piss-poor Van Nuys California you know County Hospital in a hallway
00:43:37
um emergency C-section and when I held my son like again I had one of those
00:43:43
handful of truly Transcendent experiences one of those Cosmic experiences of looking into my son's
00:43:51
eyes and they were bright bright blue and you just been ripped from the womb
00:43:59
of his mother and I felt such profound love for him and it was just like waves
00:44:07
after waves of of love and just almost I
00:44:12
had tears but it was almost just beyond tears it was like this Transcendent like love orgasm that was minutes long as I
00:44:21
as I held him it just with such gratitude and um and
00:44:28
you know for a lot of materialists they could say well that's just neurons and
00:44:34
biochemicals in your brain that are causing that and that's true there are neurons firing and there's biochemicals
00:44:39
but it's so much more than that you're never going to tell me that that's all it is and that is just some biological
00:44:45
imperative to you know have the species move forward and that's why parents love their children like what I experienced
00:44:51
I'm sorry it's just it's beyond that you can call me deluded but that's what
00:44:57
spirituality is is just increasing that love connection I think that was a dating show in the 90s love connection
00:45:03
but we want to increase that love connection and that is what a
00:45:08
spiritual journey is about and we can increase that with ourselves with nature with with time with beauty
00:45:16
um and with our with our fellow human beings how did the both of your son change your life
00:45:23
well having kids uh is a paradigm shift
00:45:28
uh because you have a creature that's in your care and is dependent on you
00:45:34
and it was actually really profound when my son was a year and a half
00:45:40
uh the same age that I was when my mom left to have the affair that was a
00:45:45
really profound time in my life it brought up a lot for me emotionally because I saw this toddler kid
00:45:54
and he would go out and explore the world and be like oh here's a cup and he'd play with some blocks and he'd oh
00:46:00
tree and he'd had some words going and stuff like that and then immediately you'd see this look on his face like oh
00:46:06
I'm out too far like oh I've swum out too far and then he'd run back to the shallow end to his mom and cling to his mom and like
00:46:14
ah and mom was home base right and I was like oh that home base was
00:46:20
stripped from me was taken away from me when I was that same age I was pretty profound
00:46:26
but this idea that our um we're responsible we brought a life
00:46:32
into the world and we're responsible for that life not just for five or ten years not just for the first 18 years but for
00:46:40
eternity it's um it's profound I can't really say intellectually what that means but
00:46:48
um it shifts the way you are alive in the world that example you gave of your son at one and a half years old being
00:46:54
able to return to home base in that you can also see what what might have happened to his development and his
00:47:01
perspective if when he'd gone out too far and turned around there was no mother there yeah
00:47:06
who we might have become and if there was no mother there and then if if I and but then he he had the
00:47:15
Father which is a close second right but then my dad who was so traumatized by
00:47:21
being abandoned by his wife and was so already emotionally shut down and he
00:47:26
couldn't really access emotions in the best of scenarios he had been colossally abused as a kid and his mom died and his
00:47:35
dad was abusive and beat him and left him and his sister alone in the house for weeks at a time it was very Charles
00:47:41
Dickens um so this you know my dad's case he was he was the
00:47:47
worst possible person to to have to bond to you know or to need to bond to so you
00:47:55
know if Little Walter if my wife holiday had left or or died for some reason and
00:48:00
Walter had to turn to me like it would have been okay but there's
00:48:06
there's nothing that fulfills that um uh that that Primal human uh
00:48:16
connection-ness then a child and the mom one of the things
00:48:21
that really surprised me um was when I was reading about your time at the office which by the way I
00:48:27
have to say is my favorite show of all time you should probably say that I'm sure that's the case for a lot of people wait are you saying right now that the U.S
00:48:33
office is better than the UK office yes wow yes I know do you hear that it is
00:48:40
maybe because there was more of them there's a hell a lot more of them so I've watched I watched honestly when I
00:48:46
was going through a difficult part in my life and I was trying to building my businesses I was shoplifting food
00:48:52
because I was just I was so broke at this chapter of my life it was the I had this beat up laptop where I had to like
00:48:58
solder the charger because I couldn't afford the 10 pounds to buy a new one it was the only thing I watched and I
00:49:03
watched it for about two years so obviously I I just kept going back and back and back it was you know you talk in chapter 10 about the Seven Pillars of
00:49:10
spiritual Revolution and one of them being about spreading Joy it spread a whole lot of joy in my life a whole lot
00:49:16
of joy and I don't watch TV to be honest I don't watch TV movies don't really watch any of it these guys will know but
00:49:21
the office I watched I didn't think there's anything else that I have watched
00:49:27
um but when I when I read about your your experience on the show there was a real sense of unfulfillment
00:49:33
especially in the early years when you were making the show you talked about that a little bit on Bill's podcast as well when I was in the
00:49:41
office I spent several years really mostly unhappy because it wasn't enough yeah well first of all I'm so glad that
00:49:50
you enjoyed the office and I just need to speak to How Deeply gratified I am and all of us are that the office has
00:49:57
brought so much Serenity and peace and love and uh
00:50:03
upliftment and inspiration to people I mean getting on a TV show is one of
00:50:10
the hardest things in the world and then getting on one that lasts is a really hard one and then getting on one that lasts and is good and then one that
00:50:17
lasts and is good and still has a cultural impact 10 years after it has
00:50:22
ended is I mean talk about hitting the lottery I mean we had no idea we knew we were
00:50:29
onto something really special and and funny and magical and of course Steve Corral is one of the great comedic
00:50:35
actors that will ever live um but we had no idea I would have this
00:50:41
kind of impact and more so deeply grateful and gratified around that and I going back to the
00:50:49
English office it's always like it's so funny to me uh and the bassoon King the other book there I talk a little bit
00:50:55
about that that competition is so absurd like the the anger and vitriol that you
00:51:00
Brits brought to the fact that he that Americans were going to make remake the Beloved office it was so staggering I
00:51:08
mean it was so enraged and vitriolic and it was like guys
00:51:14
guys the English office isn't going anywhere you can watch it over and over again we're not going to take all the
00:51:20
copies and burn them you know what I mean we're going to take a brilliant idea by you know by Ricky and Stephen
00:51:26
and the BBC and God bless them um you know it's
00:51:32
astonishingly brilliant and we're gonna kind of run with it instead of 12 episodes we're gonna make 200 episodes
00:51:37
how's that if you don't like it you don't have to watch it but uh that was an interesting uh time frame but yeah so
00:51:45
it's interesting that you bring this up because I was very frustrated because I was on
00:51:51
Bill Maher and I was on one other podcast and I was talking about how there were times on the office that I
00:51:58
really struggled because I really wasn't happy um because it wasn't enough here I was on
00:52:08
the greatest job that I could ever imagine beyond my wildest dreams of that
00:52:13
geeky chess playing bassoon playing kid from Suburban Seattle that you know walked around like a pimply serial
00:52:20
killer um that I would be part of one of the great TV shows of all time I mean give
00:52:25
me a break and here I was getting paid like millions of dollars and playing one of the most memorable characters in them
00:52:31
getting nominated for awards and I'm working with the most beautiful family of of actors and writers imaginable and
00:52:38
yet I was like how come I can't get more movies and why did my movie I did bomb and why won't
00:52:45
they make a deal with me and I I just I want to have this and I want an office on Warner Brothers and why can't I get
00:52:52
you know and I spent a lot of time uh unnecessary time and angst and anguish
00:53:00
um in that anxious discontent um at a time when I should have just
00:53:05
been like this it doesn't get better than this just enjoy it drink it in and be a part
00:53:13
of this incredible artistic because it was artistic experience so but I think
00:53:18
the reason I've been bringing that up and some interviews is I think it's important for people to
00:53:24
understand that you know here's someone who you know 15 years into their acting
00:53:30
career 20 years into their acting career because I was I started playing Dwight when I was 38 years old
00:53:36
um is uh has officially made it yeah and
00:53:42
they're still unhappy and that is so human it's so quintessentially human and
00:53:49
to think that oh if I hit this end result then I am going to be happy
00:53:55
and that's why I brought it back to that unhappiness that I experienced in my 20s like
00:54:01
I was an actor I was from Suburban Seattle here I was I had an apartment in New York I was doing acting and yet I
00:54:07
was really unhappy and miserable and it didn't make any sense because Society had always told me like there's this if
00:54:13
then proposition like if you achieve X Y and Z if you make a certain amount of money if you get a certain position if
00:54:20
you're in a certain kind of relationship if you have a house at a certain level if you're a member of a certain club or
00:54:25
whatever then you will be happy once I achieve this then I will be happy that's [ __ ] it's absolute and total crock
00:54:33
of [ __ ] now certainly I'm not meaning to demean anyone that's struggling to pay bills
00:54:39
and they're going like you know [ __ ] you Hollywood elitist you got millions of dollars in the bank and uh you don't
00:54:46
have to worry about you know paying the bills I was there you know I was I was having to worry about you know paying
00:54:52
the bills and it was it was a struggle for the you know first 15 years of my career so I've been there I know what
00:54:57
that's like and I honor that so you certainly want to make enough money to it does take an incredible pressure off
00:55:04
your shoulders once you have achieved that but to think that then you're going to be happy I mean you've interviewed a
00:55:10
lot of millionaires and a lot of successful people like how how many of them are really fulfilled uh deeply fulfilled and happy
00:55:17
what would I've had to have done to have gotten rain at the height and the peak of that success even when it was going
00:55:23
to be in the moment and to enjoy it for what it was because it's not just you it's all the people that are listening
00:55:30
now that are in jobs they've just got that promotion and now they're thinking about becoming a director or a CEO that
00:55:35
they too are deferring their happiness off to the Future behind some goal what can we do in the moment to just like
00:55:41
enjoy life today bring our happiness into the into the now
00:55:48
um if you always think your happiness is somewhere in the future it always will be um what would I've had to have said to
00:55:54
you to to get you to snap out of that um
00:55:59
that that's a great question I don't know that there's anything that you could have said to me in a couple of
00:56:06
sentences or a couple of paragraphs but I think if you could have encouraged me to go back onto my spiritual journey
00:56:11
back into my spiritual journey because you're absolutely right all we have is now all we have is this next breath is
00:56:18
this breath that we're currently experiencing and this is where the joy
00:56:24
is and if we're waiting for the joy to be 375 breaths from now or 3 000 breaths
00:56:30
from now or 300 breaths from now um we're missing out a hundred percent
00:56:35
and I think gratitude has a great deal because one of the cures for chronic
00:56:43
dissatisfaction is the cure for dukkha is is gratitude and I would have been to
00:56:49
Reign one of the things that would have been really helpful is like rain you need to start every day with 10 things you're grateful for it's like I'm
00:56:56
grateful for Jenna Fisher and John Krasinski and Steve Carell and I'm grateful for a nice paycheck and a
00:57:01
healthy son and a beautiful wife and I'm I'm grateful for you know the fans of
00:57:08
the office and the fact that I get to you know I've trained as an actor my whole life and I get to use those skills
00:57:14
and tell wonderful stories and make people laugh like if I could have been stayed hooked into that and I did get
00:57:21
hooked back into that that was this was a I'm describing a period of like three
00:57:26
years three to four years where I was really struggling with that and then and then I I came around
00:57:31
um doesn't rub you of your ambition though this is a question I always used to mull with myself because that that
00:57:37
rain that wanted more versus the rain I guess I'm grateful for what I have is one more or less
00:57:43
ambitious than the other yeah that's a that's a great question and I don't know the answer to that
00:57:48
because there is um did my chronic dissatisfaction fueled my
00:57:54
spiritual drive and also fueled my career drive and my ambition
00:57:59
um because I was so chronically dis disenchanted and disaffected uh that I I
00:58:06
wanted uh I wanted more I wanted more opportunities I wanted more money I
00:58:11
wanted more knowledge I wanted more wisdom um there's there's a drive there that
00:58:17
can be healthy in a drive that's there's an unhealthy aspect to it so I don't really know the answer to that I think
00:58:22
for now when I look in my life like I still have great ambition like I still want Soul boom as a brand I'm just kind
00:58:30
of starting to think about like how to expand that as a brand um I still want to act in movies you
00:58:36
know I want to direct I want to maybe create companies you know I created Seoul pancake maybe create another
00:58:42
company or something like that and there's a lot I want to do um but I'm hoping to bring the best
00:58:49
aspects of myself towards that ambition and for me that has to do with service
00:58:56
and um and God and
00:59:02
um and utilizing myself my god-given talents and faculties and maximizing
00:59:09
those um and living in God's will I'm sorry to
00:59:14
get all hippie dippy religious now but to me that's what's driving me now but it's uh
00:59:22
as long as we're in the battle of the ego and that's the most ancient bright
00:59:27
human spiritual struggle it's the battle of the ego and psychologists talk about it and Prophets talk about it and gurus
00:59:34
talk about it right so as long as we want to promote the self and the
00:59:39
self-will and ego satisfaction we'll never be happy are you happy I am yeah
00:59:47
Happy's the wrong word but whatever it is you mean by happy I have that thing what is that thing
00:59:55
um I don't know what the word is and I I Ponder this a lot like what's the perfect word you know social scientists
01:00:01
talk about well-being so I like that one a lot that works it's
01:00:06
partially contentment but it's also partially meaning and purpose and vision and when
01:00:14
I'm in alignment with meaning and purpose and vision um then I feel
01:00:20
like I'm vibrating on the right frequency I discovered a
01:00:25
product which has changed my life called Eight sleep and I'm so proud to say today that I had a chat with the founder of the brand and they are now a podcast
01:00:31
sponsor and one of the things I've come to learn on this podcast from speaking with Sleep Experts like Matthew Walker is how important temperature is when it
01:00:39
comes to sleep the temperature of your room the temperature of your bed and also one of the big insights I had from
01:00:45
speaking to some experts was that the temperature of the room should fluctuate throughout the night as you move through
01:00:52
different stages of sleep so when you first get into bed it should be quite cool in bed it should then get a little
01:00:58
bit cooler and then the temperature should increase near the end and that is a reflection of what would have happened
01:01:03
in nature once upon a time you've probably come to learn that I have sponsors on this podcast that I use and
01:01:10
products that I love my sponsors should be a reflection of the conversations I'm having but also a reflection of what I'm
01:01:16
using in my life so to celebrate them being a new podcast sponsor I always want to get a discount for you guys and I've got one go to atesleep.com which is
01:01:24
e i g h t sleep.com slash Stephen and if
01:01:29
you do that you'll save a hundred and fifty dollars on the Pod cover that I have on my bed the one I'm talking about
01:01:35
grab your pod cover send me a DM and let me know how you get on quick one you
01:01:41
guys know that for years now my office is quite literally been everywhere on a plane in the back of my car in a
01:01:47
terminal in an airport or on a train you name it I've probably worked there ever since I started my first business at 19
01:01:53
years old I've been working on the move all I need is Wi-Fi a desk and my headphones and I'm set and one of the
01:02:00
places that has always had my back when I'm struggling to find an office is wework I've been using wework for years
01:02:07
now whether it's in Manchester London Manhattan or La wework is easy it literally requires no thinking there's
01:02:13
no stress of finding the perfect working location we work does it all for you plenty of desk space meeting rooms
01:02:19
collaboration spaces drinks snacks it's all there so for your next remote working trip away from the office or if
01:02:25
you want a new Fresh space to work in then don't just work anywhere wework might just be your answer you can get 25
01:02:31
off your first six months of wework all access by using Code CEO works that's
01:02:36
one word CEO works and to redeem this offer visit we.com
01:02:41
CEO works still struggle with because sometimes
01:02:47
when we we read the books and stuff and I've written a book myself it can sometimes
01:02:53
exude the illusion of fixed or figured it all out I'm done
01:02:59
right what so what do you still struggle with on an ongoing basis yeah uh I think
01:03:06
that uh I can be a better husband um and I think I can be a Kinder father
01:03:13
and a more compassionate friend um there's still some really basics of
01:03:20
human interaction that I haven't quite gotten figured out well because I wasn't really I didn't
01:03:27
learn these things from my parents right I didn't learn um you know connection and compassion in
01:03:34
the household that I grew up in so I've had to you know a parent my adult self in that in that direction and you know
01:03:42
to really I I struggle with um making sure that I'm again using the
01:03:49
tools that God has given me to try and make the world a better place I think there's a lot more that I could be doing to uh try and make the world better and
01:03:57
to help heal people that are disenfranchised and
01:04:03
bring more joy to people's lives and um and try and bring spiritual tools to
01:04:08
a young generation that I think will make their lives better there's there's more I could be doing to that end
01:04:14
and I still have a big ego you know I'm still narcissistic and I still you know
01:04:19
want ego satisfaction and it's always there you know it's it's uh it's uh
01:04:27
you know they always say an addiction that your addict is in the basement doing push-ups you know even when it but
01:04:32
I would say the same thing about the ego you know it's there in the in the basement doing push-ups just getting
01:04:38
ready to come in and take the reins does it speak to you sometimes the the guy in the basement
01:04:45
yeah absolutely yeah you know Jung talks about the shadow side and it's so
01:04:50
important and part of the therapeutic process is to get to know one's Shadow because and to know and embrace and
01:04:57
accept and love one's Shadow and I have a I have a dark shadow you know it's an addict Shadow and it's a miserable
01:05:04
Shadow and it's self-important and righteous and entitled and this is this
01:05:10
is part of who Rayne Wilson is you know and I'm not going to get rid of those
01:05:16
aspects of Myself by keeping that shadow at arm's length or locked in a closet or something like that I have to you know
01:05:23
keep you keep your enemies closer you know keep that keep that shadow there you are buddy there you are right on the
01:05:30
belly yeah you little you little mean little addict you know your little narcissistic
01:05:38
entitled [ __ ] I love you I love you you're right here with me you're part of me let's go on
01:05:45
this we're in this together I got you right where I want you everyone's got a shadow um a lot of people are trying to fight
01:05:50
their Shadow I mean a lot of the prevailing narratives are that you can therapy your way out of the Shadow yeah
01:05:57
no it's it's sitting there you gotta [ __ ] sit the shadow on the lap almost
01:06:02
like a ventriloquist dummy you know it's uh that's why I love ventriloquist ventriloquist stories and horror films
01:06:10
of like the dummies that come to life and attack you know because that's that's your Shadow is is that hello how
01:06:19
are you [ __ ] you Stephen Diary of a [ __ ] CEO get a new t-shirt idiot
01:06:25
that's gonna be the trailer
01:06:33
um the 12-step program you and Russell have both spoken to me about this but Macklemore's talked to me about it as well and what I've since the
01:06:39
conversation with Russell I've spent a lot of time talking to other people about um really like what makes us change so
01:06:47
the 12-step program is has some principles which I think are applicable for all of our lives about how to how to
01:06:53
create change um if someone's going through something in their lives now and they're they're
01:06:59
struggling to change it how does that 12-step program help us to go to change
01:07:05
what what is it about that program that causes that change in people do you know I love the 12-step program that's such a
01:07:11
great question there's going to be people that are way more um knowledgeable than I
01:07:18
but I will say there are some essential components of the 12-step program that you write are applicable to everyone and
01:07:23
could make everyone's lives better uh I think society as a whole could benefit from a lot of the way that the 12 Steps
01:07:31
work um I think it's the most profound spiritual movement of the last several
01:07:38
hundred years uh it has transformed millions of people's lives
01:07:44
first of all there's the idea that there's this wonderful dichotomy at the
01:07:50
center of the 12 steps which is if I Surrender if I admit defeat if I admit
01:07:57
powerlessness I find great strength so there's a there's a beautiful
01:08:02
spiritual koan at the center of that I give up I throw up the White Flag I
01:08:08
can't do this on my own I need the support of a community I need to get vulnerable
01:08:14
I need the support of a higher power and then I find great strength there's something just so beautiful about that
01:08:21
and the community of the 12 steps is amazing too like sharing with like-minded alcoholics
01:08:29
and getting the support of that Community the fact that their servant leaders that there's elections that it's
01:08:35
it's a run it's the inmates running the Asylum you know there aren't these kind
01:08:40
of leaders in fact there if there's someone who kind of presents as like a leader and 12 steps
01:08:46
you should be immediately wary of them that they have any kind of answer at all
01:08:52
the surrender Point really is the thing that's compelled me in fact it's when Russell was talking about this idea of
01:08:58
um I think the kind of what he said was like he broke it down into three kind of processes awareness of whatever it is
01:09:04
the belief that you can change the thing and then this third step this principle of kind of surrendering to it and and in
01:09:10
an individualistic Society materialistic Society where we're becoming more and more
01:09:15
isolated and individualistic in our approach to life we are living in full white walls alone more than ever before
01:09:21
you know we we think we can do it ourselves right this idea of surrender
01:09:26
and admitting that you need the collective and help with something that you might not have the answers I think
01:09:32
is so powerful so so important as well I think we all need to surrender in many ways I think I need to surrender in terms of my ego I
01:09:39
think I need to surrender um in terms of even spirituality I told you
01:09:44
a second ago about my partner who is very s whatever anyone might call spiritual and surrendering to her way of
01:09:52
living has brought me so much value in my life so this idea of surrender being
01:09:58
the solution to um the resistance we're encountering by the
01:10:04
ways that we're living I think is something that everyone can consider like if you're feeling a deep sense of dissatisfaction in your life
01:10:11
surrendering and saying I need help I don't know the answer
01:10:16
um can can you help me yeah brings in
01:10:22
everything you're Pro it's probably that the medicine that you're seeking but surrender feels like an interesting word it feels like powerlessness right but
01:10:29
again there's great power in that powerlessness and what do you surrender to and that's why there's a higher power
01:10:34
as well and uh boy there's so many things I wanted to say there uh
01:10:40
but uh there's a humility in the process that is missing in contemporary Society
01:10:46
right let's say we're the least humble that humans have been uh in in our
01:10:52
history all eight billion of us sharing this planet so um
01:10:58
and I think God or a higher power requires a certain humility like there is a power greater than myself the ego
01:11:06
is the opposite of surrender the ego wants to control outcomes the ego wants
01:11:12
to control other people right as long as we're trying to control other people and control outcomes we're going to be
01:11:18
unhappy so there's something about surrendering like you know your your partners
01:11:23
you know Journey you surrender to that you don't know what she's gonna go live
01:11:29
on a commune or worship a mushroom or something like that okay you're on your journey she already knows babe
01:11:35
you know so it's it's again that Central spiritual struggle is is the is the is
01:11:43
the ego is the premises the Primacy the Primal C of I the self as being separate
01:11:51
from everything else and the essential spiritual teaching at the center of every Faith tradition is that we're all
01:11:58
connected we're all United we're all one this is an illusion of self
01:12:04
so surrender eliminates that illusion of self but there's so many other nuggets in 12
01:12:10
steps like one of them just in the middle of the steps is when we are wrong promptly admit it like that's just a
01:12:18
really good piece of advice and you know what we could all benefit politicians could benefit CEOs could benefit
01:12:25
um people in relationships parents with their children people in in Partnership could benefit like when we're wrong
01:12:32
promptly admit it promptly being the word not eventually you know
01:12:38
um as soon as you know say you're sorry and do it faster you know and do it better and uh the world would be a much
01:12:44
better place if everyone around said when I'm wrong I'm going to promptly admit it that's just one little gem
01:12:50
there's so many dozens more holiday yeah she's been with
01:12:55
you through a lot yeah yeah when I was looking at the timeline of when you you guys got together I think you met in an
01:13:01
acting class right yeah it's been a long time almost four decades right hell a long time yeah we were an acting
01:13:08
class together in 1985. we weren't together as a couple till 1991 really
01:13:13
when she moved to New York but uh yeah I wasn't even born then you've grown a whole Stephen in that time [ __ ]
01:13:21
I was born in 92 so what is she what is she what does she mean to you are you gonna make me cry aren't you
01:13:27
you're gonna try and make me cry I don't know I don't know you might hate her um
01:13:33
she's everything to me I mean I am so blessed to have her in my life um she's dealt with me when I've been a
01:13:39
raging [ __ ] and she's dealt with me when I've been depressed when I've when
01:13:45
I've let my anxiety get the best of me um we've had a lot of ups and downs in
01:13:50
our marriage and I think that that's really important for people to hear like uh I we're soul mates
01:13:58
um and uh I really wouldn't have achieved anything that I've achieved
01:14:04
without her help and guidance and love and support and it you know it all
01:14:09
sounds like a cliche but it's just it's just the truth and she's really the
01:14:15
wisest person that I know she has a deep deep wisdom and she knows me better than
01:14:20
anyone so I'm just grateful and I tell her every day I tell her every day what
01:14:26
she taught you about the nature of what love is you know it's interesting she also had a
01:14:33
very traumatic childhood and a difficult her parents had a very difficult situation and she she had a lot of
01:14:40
issues in her own way and her own Journey I'll let her tell that story but
01:14:46
um she loves very naturally in a way that
01:14:52
it's a lot more work for me so she just has a big heart and is just
01:14:58
able to love our son and other people and animals and
01:15:04
uh you know I I always felt like is an analogy I use in uh in
01:15:12
my in my books where because I had such a weirdly fractured childhood
01:15:18
I would observe how humans interacted and uh try and emulate that because I
01:15:23
didn't understand it so if I would like observe people in the lunchroom at my school and they'd come in and someone
01:15:29
would say like hey buddy how's it going you have a good weekend good to see you and I would I would watch it and I would
01:15:36
I'll be like oh that's that's how normal people interact and so I would I would
01:15:41
literally copy it and I would try it out and I'd go up to someone like hey buddy uh how you doing you have a good weekend
01:15:50
you know so for me I felt like I was an alien like I was literally like a science fiction film where I was like
01:15:55
this alien like learning about human behavior and interaction and like studying humans and and seeking to to
01:16:03
fit in and I bring this up because holidays uh does this stuff so naturally
01:16:10
you know she just has a natural warmth and and Grace uh so and sometimes I
01:16:16
emulate her about oh here's what it means to be loving and and warm and uh
01:16:22
and live life with with Grace you and me both
01:16:27
my partner sounds exactly the same and I feel like I've learned how to love someone by emulating the things she does
01:16:33
so naturally the things she says the things she admits when she says sorry how open she is the her ability to tell
01:16:40
me her feelings all of these things I've I've learned from just watching that she seems to have no issue or no resistance
01:16:46
in doing it that makes sense I've learned that a parent from her so well and our son uh
01:16:52
bless him Walter is 18 and a half about to go off to college um but I always wanna
01:16:59
maybe lecture or react a little too much or say the thing I feel that needs
01:17:05
saying and and my wife is so good and like she'll see me starting to do it and she'll just be like
01:17:12
just just this little thing and I'll be like and I think Walter well we'll we'll talk about it later I
01:17:18
just I take my cues from her little Alexis she's a conductor with my she's a conductor of my parenting too
01:17:26
rain thank you so much we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving
01:17:32
the question for they leave it in the Diary of a Seer that's good the question they have left for you I
01:17:38
didn't get to read it until so give me a second handwriting isn't always great
01:17:44
can you recall a time when you
01:17:50
observe he reads it observed someone being treated badly and could have
01:17:56
intervened but didn't uh so what might you have done
01:18:03
differently if you could go back to that moment
01:18:09
that's such an exceptional question I was reading a uh someone was writing
01:18:15
about bullying and they were talking about how bullying is a three-step process like
01:18:22
you stop the bully you say hey that's not okay speak up to the bully maybe
01:18:27
don't get in a fight but speak up to the bully tend to the bullied
01:18:33
and then report it to an authority and we often just kind of view bullying
01:18:39
as like that first step process of like trying to shut down the bully and
01:18:45
you know back in the 70s and 80s when I was growing up uh there was a hell a lot of bullying going on and
01:18:52
um and I I feel bad that I didn't bully myself because I was far too nerdy
01:19:01
um to partake in bullying but if that's any reason why
01:19:07
well part of it was part of it was because I wish that I could have been a part of that process of especially
01:19:15
people that had been bullied to uh I I guess I just didn't have the tools to give them empathy and
01:19:23
compassion and support and then to take an active part in you know reporting
01:19:29
this whole dynamic to the authorities because I when I go back uh and replay
01:19:34
my high school years in junior high in elementary school years it's non-stop bullying I mean it was it was taunting
01:19:42
and teasing and you know taking the piss out and and demeaning and belittling and
01:19:49
um and hierarchies and uh we may be going a little too far in contemporary Society about what
01:19:57
qualifies as bullying because it's not criticism and it's not even necessarily like having some good-natured fun you
01:20:04
know but uh I wish I had been uh I'm more actively
01:20:10
a participant in kind of a part of the three-step process
01:20:16
it's super interesting never heard about that three-step process before this particular individual I don't usually give Clues but uh but um they're writing
01:20:23
a book about adult bullying as well um having been on the receiving end of that they think adult bullying is something
01:20:29
we don't really talk about a lot which is like the workplace stuff and um you know as we get older
01:20:36
Wayne thank you so much um thank you for so many things my there's two real really incredible
01:20:41
things that um changed my life in a really important way the first was obviously the office you know you were
01:20:46
by far my favorite character and I think that I just can't understand how a human can be could have been so good at acting
01:20:54
and I really mean that like I don't [ __ ] people but you're so good at acting playing that role of Dwight I
01:21:01
think there was occasions where I tried to do it like I tried to so it's almost
01:21:06
it's it comes as a shock to many people that and you know this because you kind of allude to it in the first chapter of
01:21:12
the book that someone that could embody Dwight can
01:21:18
also write such a great book like this about something that is so far from what I think Dwight might be interested in
01:21:24
and it's actually all a testament to your ability to your ability to act really really unbelievable I think your
01:21:30
role as Dwight is one of the all-time great performances in any show like that it's it's incredibly incredible and you
01:21:36
talk about as I said in the 10th chapter of the book about spreading Joy you gave me so much joy and then you came out
01:21:43
with this app called Soul pancake back in the day which caught me at the perfect moment where I was a young man that was really obsessed with these big
01:21:49
questions still am um and it allowed me to find this community where I just peppered people
01:21:54
with really profound questions about whether dogs have you know a soul and
01:21:59
all these kind of things that I was struggling with at the time so thank you for both of those things because you helped me in ways that you'll never know
01:22:04
and I live tens of thousands of miles that way and it changed just nudged the the direction of my life and so many
01:22:10
important ways and it's led me to this moment now which you can understand for me is an incredible absolutely
01:22:16
incredible one so thank you means a lot and everyone should go check out this book it's it's wonderful it's super accessible it's it kind of I don't know
01:22:23
how to describe this but it as as it relates to books that are confronting this idea of the spiritual
01:22:29
Revolution it takes it easy on you and it holds your hand across the bridge you know and that that I think is important
01:22:35
because that person in the Lorry or the truck that's exactly what they need if they are going to access the wisdom in
01:22:40
this book so thank you rain Stephen what a profound pleasure thank you for having me on the show congratulations on all
01:22:47
the incredible work that you do and um thank you for acknowledging the fact
01:22:53
that you owe everything to me [Laughter]
01:22:59
and that's a wrap foreign
01:23:05
as you know they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company one of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a
01:23:12
relationship with huel one day in the office many years ago a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a
01:23:17
heeled t-shirt and I was really compelled by the logo I just thought from a design aesthetic point of view it was really interesting and I asked him
01:23:24
what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt and he said it's this brand called heal and they make
01:23:29
food that is nutritionally complete and very very convenient and has the planet in mind and he the next day dropped off
01:23:36
a little bottle of fuel on my desk and from that day onwards I completely got it because I'm someone that cares
01:23:42
tremendously about having a nutritionally complete diet but sometimes because of the way my life is
01:23:47
that falls by the wayside so if there was a really convenient reliable trustworthy way for me to be
01:23:53
nutritionally complete in an affordable way I was all ears especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet give
01:23:59
it a chance give it a shot let me know what you think [Music]
01:24:07
oh [Music]
01:24:16
foreign
01:24:22
[Music]