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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello and welcome to episode 80
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer later in the episode Evan
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kokis will be joining me Evan is the
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founder of the college confidence coach
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and yes Evan and I discussed some of the
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financial side of college and preparing
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your children for college but we
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actually spend much more time diving
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into the the non-financial aspects of
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helping teenagers make one of what
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perhaps will be one of the bigger
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decisions thus far in their lives and so
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if you're a parent of a future College
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attendee or perhaps you know such a
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parent in your lives I think evans's
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wisdom and expertise is fantastic in and
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really worth listening to today but
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first let's do one of our customary
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reviews of the week this one comes from
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Apple podcasts like all the other
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reviews and it comes specifically from
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user Kel's
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123321 Kel's writes in and says
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underrated and educational I'm 30
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episodes in I love the relevant topics
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how easy it is to understand Jesse has a
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real skill for making digestible
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breakdowns of complex topics as good as
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any Finance podcast out there flies
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under the radar deserves to get famous
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well thank you Kels I'm not sure Fame is
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in my future Kels but I appreciate your
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kind words and you know what if the
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podcast gets a little more traction
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because of nice reviews like this I will
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take it and I really appreciate it so
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thank you Kel's send me an email Jesse
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bestter interest. blog and we'll get you
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hooked up with some pretty cool
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best-interest gear some swag a nice soft
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t-shirt and before Evan joins us for the
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main conversation today I want to do my
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traditional little monologue and and
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spend a little bit of time
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talking about two subtopics surrounding
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529 College savings plans so to start
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for those unfamiliar the 529 College
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savings plan is a a tax advantaged
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investment account meant specifically
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for educational expenses as of the tax
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cuts and jobs act which was passed in
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2017 uh 529 plans can be used for
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college costs for K through 12 Public
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School costs for private Andor religious
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school tuition and so if you ever need
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to pay for your child's education then
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529 plans are for you now it's worth
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noting on that note that every state has
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its own 529 plan that they administer at
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a state level and different states
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provide different levels of benefit for
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for using 529s and the thing that I said
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a couple senten ago about using 529s for
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college or for high school well that can
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actually vary from state to state so
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you'll want to make sure that your
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State's 529 plan or or simply the the
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529 plan that you choose to use because
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you don't actually have to use your own
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States right I I live in New York I use
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New York's but if I wanted to I could
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use California's plan so that's
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important for you all to know but
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whatever state plan you end up using
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you'll want to know what you can use
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those $529 for for college yes for high
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school for middle school maybe if if
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they go to a private school that kind of
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thing now 529 plans as you couldn't tell
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right it's a numbered plan so it's got
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that similar kind of naming Convention
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as a 401k and that's because the name
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comes from the specific us tax code
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where the plan was written in to law
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it's in section 529 of Internal Revenue
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code 26 now that is very boring and
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doesn't really matter but that's where
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the 529 gets its name now there are tax
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advantages with the 529 and and this is
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kind of the last thing I'll say from a
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very general point of view is when you
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contribute money to a 529 plan in many
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states although not in all states you
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get a state tax discount right up front
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for example in New York state the first
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$10,000 that a couple contributes to a
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$529
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is deductible from state taxes so in you
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know my marginal New York state tax is
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roughly around 6% so I contribute
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$10,000 Kelly and I my wife and I as a
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couple contribute $10,000 into a $529 we
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pay $600 less of tax right very nice
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very nice thing up front but then you
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can invest the money in a 529 account
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and your investment grows tax-free no
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federal taxes paid on investment growth
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which is very nice you don't have to pay
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taxes on dividends you don't have to pay
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taxes on capital gains that's all well
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and good and then sometime in the future
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when you withdraw money from the 529 in
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order to pay for a qualified educational
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expense like college tuition there is no
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tax on withdrawing that money so
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tax-free growth and tax-free withdrawals
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as long as you're using the money for
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qualified educational expenses that is
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the deal of 529s the benefit are these
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these really nice tax advantages so long
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as you're using the money for the exact
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purpose of the plan which is educational
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expenses now there's a major downside or
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at least I should say a significant
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downside of 529 plans that in some cases
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turns people off against them and the
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downside is or the question that people
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ask themselves is what if I just save
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too much money in a 529 plan and I I
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have extra money there that my kids
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don't end up using what if my kid
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decides not to go to college and and I
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don't use the money at all it's just
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sitting there in a 529 plan what if they
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get a sport scholarship what if they
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into the military all good questions but
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really underlying all those questions is
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the fear that money will be put away in
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a 529 plan will be saved diligently will
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be invested smartly but then come the
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future won't be used for any sort of
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educational expense and then when the
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parents or whoever owns the 529 account
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wants to pull that money out if they
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don't pull it out for an education
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expense if they don't pull it out for a
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qualified expense then the federal
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government comes in and says hey you
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aren't using the 5 29 plan appropriately
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you aren't using it in the way that we
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intended you aren't using it for
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educational expenses therefore we are
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going to Levy taxes against you because
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we've given you all this taxfree growth
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and we're going to undo that we're going
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to charge you what ends up being uh
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regular income tax on any of the growth
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in the 529 plan which can be significant
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and then they also charge a 10% penalty
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on top of that now when you actually run
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the math and you look at the benefits of
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using a 529 plan in in the first place
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once the income taxes have been charged
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and and once the 10% penalty has been
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levied you'll see that that really
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nullifies all the benefit of using the
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529 so if you're going to have dollars
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left over in the 529 plan at the end of
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the day that you need to pull out
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because you have no other educational
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use for them well you are better off
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never putting those dollars in there in
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the first place that is the rub and
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that's the fear that many parents have
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to say well I'm not sure I want to use a
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529 plan because what if the future
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holds some sort of unknown situation and
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the dollars aren't used for educational
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purposes and we want access to them I
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don't want to have to pay that 10%
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penalty I don't want to have to pay
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those extra income taxes I'd rather just
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save for college some other way so that
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brings us to the first of today's main
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topics which I call the 50/50 rule for
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college saving you know after a few real
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life conversations and and running my
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own math I've decided that a 50/50 rule
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for college saving achieve achieves The
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Best of Both Worlds now I'll explain
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what 50/50 is and and why I chose that
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it's percentages right 50% and 50%
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adding up to 100 and as I go through
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this explanation and I'll come back to
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this idea at the end too it it doesn't
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have to be 5050 it could be 6040 or 7030
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but just keep that in mind as I talk
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about 50/50 today now the rule is 50% of
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your college savings goals should be
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saved via a 529 plan the other 50%
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should be saved via a taxable brokerage
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account now why is that the case
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well let's first discuss what we do and
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what we don't want from our College
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savings plans what we do want to save
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for college all right groundbreaking
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stuff there we do want to reduce our
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income taxes right that that's a good
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thing we do want our investments to grow
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taxfree excellent but we also do want
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flexibility while we save because life
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can throw us a curveball maybe our kids
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don't go to college so we want
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flexibility if we can achieve it and we
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don't want to end up with permanently
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frozen assets we don't want leftover
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$529 so now the traditional 529 College
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savings plans it offers some of those
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benefits it it it achiev some of those
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goals we just laid out but not all of
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them in fact 529 plans are actually
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terrible at achieving a couple of those
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goals we just mentioned they're good at
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reducing income taxes many states offer
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income tax deductions on 529
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contributions and we already went
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through the New York example taxfree
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growth 529 Investments grow tax three
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just like in a 401k or in an IRA there's
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there's no annual tax on dividends
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there's no tax on interest if you sell
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the Investments inside of 529 there's no
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capital gains so long as you eventually
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use the money for educational purposes
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now this leaves more dollars behind
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right the less tax you pay the more
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dollars are left behind to grow and
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compound extra compound interest that's
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a good thing if we apply these two tax
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advantages to a reasonable scenario I'll
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I'll link to this article in the show
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notes for the 50/50 Rule and there's a
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Google sheet we can link to as well well
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that shows this math where it's
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realistic to expect a 529 account to
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result in a 15 to 20% extra dollars for
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college when compared to a taxable
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brokerage account so if you assume that
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someone saves for you know 15 years of
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their children's lives they're saving
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for college at a reasonable amount every
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year 529 accounts the tax savings can
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end up being really significant an extra
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15 or 20% but if we look at the other
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side of the aisle at taxable brokerage
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accounts we'll see that they have some
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distinct advantages over 529s namely on
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flexibility and the idea of having
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frozen assets taxable accounts are very
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flexible you can withdraw from them at
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any time just like for example during a
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unexpected emergency you couldn't tap
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into your 529 plan but you can tap into
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a taxable brokerage account $529 must be
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spent on educational expenses cannot be
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withdrawn for other reasons what if your
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kid decides to skip College well unused
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funds in a 529 can be
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basically impossible to withdraw without
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paying taxes and penalties whereas
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taxable accounts avoid that situation
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now in case it ever comes up in your
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situation or in your conversations every
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529 withdrawal whether for educational
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purposes or not is made prata between
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your contributions and your earnings the
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contributions are never taxed and never
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penalized but the earnings can be if
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your withdrawal is not for a qualified
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educational expense now for example
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let's say your 529 plan has $100,000 of
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contributions and $50,000 of earnings so
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that's 2/3 contributions 1/3 earnings
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you want to make a $30,000 withdrawal
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just to pay for college you have no
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choice in that $20,000 of that
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withdrawal will come from your
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contributions and $10,000 will come from
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earnings because that's 2/3 and 1/3
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again now if that $33,000 withdrawal is
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for college expenses you're clear but if
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it was not for a qualified education
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expense then the the $10,000 earning
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portion the oneir in this case will be
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taxed as income which just is more
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marginal tax dollars on top of your
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regular income so that's not ideal and
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will also suffer that 10% penalty and as
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I alluded to before if you run the math
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you'll see that the penalty eats away at
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all of the 529 tax benefits in the first
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place so you do not want to suffer that
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penalty if you can help it and that
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means we need to try to find a balance
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between 529 accounts and taxable
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accounts how do we balance those various
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pros and cons well the 50/50 rule is a
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good place to start so let's say you aim
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to gift your children $100,000 over
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their four years of college very very
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generous of you I think that you should
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aim to have $50,000 of that gift coming
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from a$ 529 account the other $50,000
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coming from a taxable brokerage account
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now you know already we all know already
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that that solution won't be perfectly
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ideal because whatever reality throws at
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you you will wish that you had decided
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to go all in one direction or the other
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direction but we don't know the future
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and that fact the fact that we're all
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Mortals and we don't have a crystal ball
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it's one of the fundamental frustrations
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in all of financial planning if we knew
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the future right we could make a perfect
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financial plan but we don't so we can't
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our best Solutions therefore often
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involve hedging our bets we'd rather
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know we're 50% correct then be surprised
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later that we're 100% wrong and the
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50/50 rule is one of many types of
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financial planning tactics that
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guarantees a middleof the road solution
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you'll capture some of the tax benefits
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and you'll also retain some of your
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flexibility if Johnny gets a scholarship
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and only needs 70% of your saved money
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well that's actually kind of great
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because you'll still be able to use your
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$529 completely and then you'll dip into
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the taxable account only when needed
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it's keep keeping the remaining taxable
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dollars for other goals in life you'll
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be confident your 529 account will be
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completely drained avoiding any sort of
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frustrating taxes or penalties later on
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the 50-50 rule provides really The Best
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of Both Worlds provides flexibility and
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no matter what happens you'll know that
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you'll be in a pretty good spot for
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college savings now some of you might be
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thinking well what about the FAFSA after
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I wrote this original article one person
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uh an anonymous commenter wrote in on on
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the the best interest on the blog and
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they said Jesse Your solution doesn't
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factor in how FAFSA treats these
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accounts differently well that person
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unfortunately is wrong but they bring up
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a good point which is how does FAFSA
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think about these Assets Now FAFSA is
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the free application for federal student
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aid that's what FAFSA stands for and it
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looks at all sorts of assets going on in
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a family's life an income in a family's
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life and faf's is to estimate how much
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money family can contribute to their
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children's college now the FAFSA treats
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529 assets and parents taxable accounts
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precisely the same way that is up to
00:14:41
5.64% 5.64 you know between 5 and 6% of
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those accounts go directly into
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calculating a family's expected family
00:14:50
contribution or EFC that EFC really is
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the the big number in FAFSA right it's
00:14:55
what a family can be expected to
00:14:57
contribute towards College about 5 or 6%
00:15:00
of a 529 account and about 5 or 6% of a
00:15:03
taxable account will count towards the
00:15:06
family's EFC therefore you know the
00:15:08
higher the EFC the less Aid you get but
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the point being that both of these
00:15:13
accounts are counted for in in financial
00:15:16
aid and as long as they're in the name
00:15:18
of the parents they're counted the same
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way another smart piece of feedback I
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got from from this idea is the question
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of well does it have to be 50/50 now
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I'll admit dividing the two accounts
00:15:28
down the middle 5050 it's simply an easy
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shorthand you can choose a different
00:15:32
fraction but when thinking through what
00:15:34
fraction makes the most sense in your
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case or in my case my primary concerns
00:15:39
are that one we need to be confident
00:15:42
very confident that we are going to
00:15:44
drain the 529 accounts down to zero if
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Johnny's College will cost
00:15:49
$200,000 and you aim to have all
00:15:51
$200,000 in a 529 I don't like that
00:15:54
there's no margin for error even if you
00:15:56
wanted to have
00:15:57
$190,000 of the 200,000 in a 529 I still
00:16:01
don't think that's enough room for error
00:16:03
things can change Investments can grow
00:16:05
more than expected uh maybe a little
00:16:06
scholarship here a little bit of money
00:16:08
there and next thing you know you just
00:16:10
have leftover money in 529 and that's
00:16:12
something ideally we want to avoid and
00:16:14
then the second thing I want to keep in
00:16:16
mind is that during the saving process
00:16:18
right which can take 5 years or 10 years
00:16:20
or 15 years as we're building up to the
00:16:23
point when our kids are going to college
00:16:25
I want to have a large enough portion of
00:16:27
their college Savings in inside of a
00:16:29
taxable account to provide just in case
00:16:32
flexibility emergency fund whatever you
00:16:34
want to call it to the rest of my
00:16:36
financial life I don't want to find
00:16:38
myself in a situation where college is
00:16:40
still 5 years away I've got $100,000
00:16:43
saved in 529 accounts and nothing saved
00:16:46
in taxable accounts I'd much rather be
00:16:49
in a situation where I say well we're
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still 5 years away from college and
00:16:53
$50,000 are in a$ 529 account right now
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and the other part that I've saved now
00:16:58
I've got $45,000 over here in a taxable
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account because if the roof flies off in
00:17:03
a tornado I can dip into that taxable
00:17:06
account and and use it right now today
00:17:09
taxfree and penalty-free so the upshot
00:17:11
of all this is that maybe for you in
00:17:13
your life maybe 75 25 makes more sense
00:17:16
maybe 6040 makes more sense I can
00:17:18
totally get on board with that but for
00:17:20
what it's worth I probably wouldn't go
00:17:23
much higher than anticipating to pull
00:17:26
75% of college costs from a 529 now
00:17:29
let's work backwards you can work
00:17:30
backward from your future goal to
00:17:33
discover what today's saving rates need
00:17:35
to be now in our hypothetical scenario
00:17:38
let's say we want to have $50,000 in a
00:17:40
529 account and $50,000 in a taxable
00:17:44
account for college in 15 years let's
00:17:46
say we have a three-year-old child today
00:17:48
so 15 years from now we want to have 100
00:17:50
Grand and we're going to split it 50/50
00:17:52
between a 529 and a taxable account you
00:17:54
can plug that into a spreadsheet assume
00:17:58
a reasonable conservative rate of return
00:18:01
and you can get to a starting point that
00:18:02
says you need to put 2,000 per year into
00:18:05
each account or $170 per month into each
00:18:08
account great that's just how the math
00:18:10
shakes out in this case now depending on
00:18:12
your timeline and what you want to
00:18:14
assume for a rate of compound growth a
00:18:16
simple spreadsheet or a question to your
00:18:18
financial planner will inform you of
00:18:20
what your savings plan needs to be and
00:18:23
that quite simply is the 50/50 rule for
00:18:25
college saving and then I wanted to dip
00:18:27
into one more interesting 529
00:18:30
conversation before Evan guokas joins us
00:18:32
I want to talk about the important
00:18:34
details behind the 529 to Roth
00:18:37
conversions now if you haven't heard
00:18:39
about this the secure 2.0 Act passed in
00:18:42
2022 it featured many new tax and
00:18:45
investing rules and one of the most
00:18:47
publicized changes is that people can
00:18:50
now convert
00:18:51
$529 into Roth IRA dollars it's a very
00:18:55
popular idea because as we just talked
00:18:57
about with the 50-50 rule traditionally
00:18:59
$529 had no sort of pressure release
00:19:02
valve they'd be subject to income tax
00:19:04
and a 10% penalty if they weren't used
00:19:06
for educational expenses now this new
00:19:09
rule gives those unused $529 a potential
00:19:13
New Path into a Roth IRA but there is
00:19:17
much more to this Roth conversion rule
00:19:19
than meets the eye and there's a lot of
00:19:21
faulty advice bouncing around the
00:19:23
internet now as we've alluded to a
00:19:25
couple times in this episode the
00:19:27
downside of 529s is is that threat that
00:19:29
your money will get stuck there and that
00:19:32
leads you know the government or
00:19:33
legislators to a pretty useful important
00:19:36
question which is what's the point of a
00:19:38
tax advantage account that investors
00:19:40
avoid using for threat of the downsides
00:19:43
and this new Roth conversion rule aims
00:19:46
to fix that problem so first let's talk
00:19:48
about some of the basics with the
00:19:50
passing of the secur 2.0 act 529 account
00:19:53
holders can now convert
00:19:55
$35,000 from their 529 accounts into
00:19:59
Roth IRAs that money can then grow
00:20:01
taxfree in the Roth IRA and can be
00:20:04
withdrawn in retirement also taxfree
00:20:07
that's a wonderful thing but first
00:20:08
things first who receives the Roth IRA
00:20:11
dollars most of the time investors
00:20:13
create 529 accounts for the benefit of
00:20:16
another person like their child that
00:20:19
child is called the beneficiary now for
00:20:21
this Roth conversion rule the Roth IRA
00:20:24
has to be in the name of the beneficiary
00:20:27
of the 529 account account for example
00:20:29
the the student or the child however
00:20:32
that being said investors can always set
00:20:34
up 529 accounts with themselves as the
00:20:36
beneficiary and in that case the
00:20:38
investor could convert 529 money into
00:20:42
their own Roth IRA however there are
00:20:45
important timing restrictions here the
00:20:47
529 account must be held for the
00:20:50
designated beneficiary for at least 15
00:20:53
years before it's eligible for Roth
00:20:56
conversion if you start a 529 account
00:20:58
today today in April of 2024 it won't be
00:21:01
eligible for Roth conversion until
00:21:04
2039 and the reason here quite simply is
00:21:06
because the government wasn't really
00:21:08
interested in creating a shortcut they
00:21:11
weren't interested in creating a hack
00:21:13
where today I can create a 529 account I
00:21:16
can load it with money and then tomorrow
00:21:18
I can do a Roth conversion no no no no
00:21:19
no they essentially want quote unquote
00:21:22
honest use of this new rule the 15-year
00:21:25
rule means it's actually going to be
00:21:27
applied for most likely students and and
00:21:30
beneficiaries and the way that
00:21:32
legislators intend next question can the
00:21:34
conversion happen all at once right
00:21:36
there's a $35,000 conversion limit can
00:21:38
it happen all at once well the maximum
00:21:40
conversion in any one year is determined
00:21:43
by two factors the first factor is
00:21:45
whatever the maximum annual Roth IRA
00:21:48
contribution limit is for that year for
00:21:50
example here in 2024 the uh maximum Roth
00:21:54
IRA contribution limit is
00:21:56
$7,000 meaning if you were to do one
00:21:58
these 529 conversions in 2024 the most
00:22:01
you could convert is
00:22:03
$7,000 but then also just like real Roth
00:22:06
IRA contributions we have to look at the
00:22:09
529 beneficiaries earned income did the
00:22:13
beneficiary and make any money this year
00:22:15
W2 earned income or $199 there there are
00:22:18
many ways to earn income for what it's
00:22:19
worth not a tax professional but the
00:22:22
maximum annual conversion from the 529
00:22:24
to the Roth must be less than whatever
00:22:27
the benefici sh's earned income is if
00:22:30
you don't have a job if you're not
00:22:31
working and you don't have any earned
00:22:33
income then you cannot convert $529 into
00:22:37
your Roth if you want to convert the
00:22:39
full $35,000 which is the max under
00:22:42
current rules we can just do some math
00:22:44
in our heads and realize oh it will have
00:22:45
to occur over at least five years right
00:22:48
five years at $7,000 each year gets us
00:22:51
to
00:22:52
$35,000 and you'll have to earn at least
00:22:54
$7,000 of earned income in each of those
00:22:57
five years next question are there any
00:22:59
other limitations to this new rule uh
00:23:01
yes there are any 529 assets contributed
00:23:04
in the past 5 years and their Associated
00:23:07
earnings are not eligible for Roth
00:23:09
conversion now you might be saying to
00:23:11
yourself well we already covered that
00:23:12
with a 15-year rule right and the answer
00:23:14
is not quite the 15-year rule applies to
00:23:17
the age of the account itself the 5-year
00:23:20
rule applies to the actual dollars in
00:23:22
the account only dollars in the account
00:23:24
that are at least 5 years old or are
00:23:27
earned right our interest or growth from
00:23:30
dollars that are at least 5 years old
00:23:32
only those older dollars are eligible
00:23:34
for conversion uh the next question can
00:23:36
I do this for my my oldest kid child a
00:23:40
and then do it again for child B now if
00:23:43
each child has their own 529 plan then
00:23:45
yes you can but if the Roth conversion
00:23:47
dollars are only coming from one 529
00:23:50
account it can be challenging the
00:23:52
15-year rule is the main reason why
00:23:54
based on the way the rules are currently
00:23:56
written the 529 account would have to
00:23:58
list list child a as the beneficiary for
00:24:00
15 years and then you'd start a 5 to six
00:24:03
year Roth conversion window and then
00:24:05
child B would become the beneficiary
00:24:07
which would begin a new 15-year window
00:24:10
and then a new WTH conversion window
00:24:12
after that it's a 40-year total timeline
00:24:14
it just doesn't make much sense now
00:24:16
here's some personal commentary some of
00:24:18
my thoughts on the 529 accounts in
00:24:20
general and this WTH conversion rule
00:24:22
more specifically the 529 to Roth rule
00:24:24
is a good thing don't get me wrong it's
00:24:26
a net positive any way you cut the cake
00:24:28
it's just adding more functionality it's
00:24:30
adding a pressure release valve that
00:24:32
wasn't previously there it's only good
00:24:35
but with instate College costs well
00:24:38
above $30,000 per year and many out of
00:24:40
state college costs more than double
00:24:42
that it's a small solution to what's
00:24:45
probably a larger problem the larger
00:24:47
problem is that it's feasible for
00:24:48
$100,000 to get stuck in a 529 account
00:24:52
if we don't plan accordingly or if life
00:24:54
throws us curveball and the Roth
00:24:56
conversion rule only fixes quote unquote
00:24:58
fixes $35,000 of that problem what to do
00:25:02
instead it gets me back to the 50/50
00:25:04
rule if I'm being honest I think first
00:25:06
parents should determine a dollar amount
00:25:08
they'd like to contribute to their
00:25:09
children's college is it $10,000 a year
00:25:11
is it $100,000 whatever pick your number
00:25:14
and then parents should work towards
00:25:16
that goal by Saving in both 529 accounts
00:25:18
and taxable brokerage accounts as we
00:25:20
alluded to that the 50-50 rule or the
00:25:22
6040 rule whatever you end up picking
00:25:25
intentionally splits the difference some
00:25:27
of the money is locked away way for
00:25:28
college some of the money is not tax
00:25:31
advantaged but is perfectly flexible the
00:25:33
Roth conversion rule does add another
00:25:35
Knob to turn in our benefit and once we
00:25:37
get closer to college age maybe we do
00:25:40
want to sit down with a financial
00:25:41
planner at that point and say hey we
00:25:43
have X saved in a 529 we have y saved in
00:25:46
a taxable account here's how much we
00:25:48
want to contribute or gift to our
00:25:50
children to help them with college
00:25:52
should we be thinking about this Roth
00:25:54
conversion as well one thing I didn't
00:25:56
mention before that I probably should
00:25:57
have is uh the Roth conversion it takes
00:26:00
the place of what otherwise would have
00:26:02
been normal Roth contributions that year
00:26:04
so let's say your kid is 25 they're off
00:26:07
on their own post College they're
00:26:08
earning income they open a Roth IRA for
00:26:11
themselves and you as their parents say
00:26:13
Hey you have this leftover money in your
00:26:15
529 let's convert it from your 529 into
00:26:18
your WTH well if you do the $7,000
00:26:21
conversion for your child that year they
00:26:23
can no longer make their own
00:26:25
contributions to their Roth you can only
00:26:27
add 7,00
00:26:28
per year into a Roth from One Source it
00:26:31
can be from their earned income or it
00:26:33
can be from the $529 you can't send
00:26:35
$4,000 in 7 plus 7 from both sources so
00:26:40
good thing to keep in mind I suppose and
00:26:42
like I said before this Roth conversion
00:26:44
rule I've been kind of poo pooing it a
00:26:46
little bit right now on this podcast but
00:26:47
the main reason why is because too many
00:26:50
sources online are describing it as the
00:26:53
best thing since sliced bread and it
00:26:54
really isn't it's simply another Knob to
00:26:57
turn a nice little pressure release
00:26:59
valve uh but I wouldn't go out of my way
00:27:03
to ensure I have extra money in a 529
00:27:06
just so I can make the Roth conversion
00:27:08
later on I hope that by explaining some
00:27:10
of the downsides or some of the some of
00:27:13
the rules and the way they're written
00:27:14
today you'll see that legislators kind
00:27:17
of thought about that and they've
00:27:18
already made sure that you can't really
00:27:20
use this rule that way the 529 toal
00:27:23
conversion it's a good rule for Savers
00:27:24
and investors it's important you know it
00:27:26
you know how it works but it has
00:27:28
specific nuances that you'll need to
00:27:30
follow and it won't be applicable for
00:27:32
every possible case here's a quick ad
00:27:35
and then we'll get back to the show
00:27:37
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free no strings attached subscription at
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bestin interest. blog and with that I
00:28:26
want to bring on Evan giokas into the
00:28:28
conversation Evan is the founder and he
00:28:30
was the first employee the first coach
00:28:31
if you will at the college confidence
00:28:34
coach now that company the college
00:28:36
confidence coach Evans company provides
00:28:38
a unique service to help young adults
00:28:40
navigate what might be their first major
00:28:42
life decision that is where to go to
00:28:45
college do they even want to go to
00:28:46
college in the first place now for most
00:28:48
the transition from high school to
00:28:50
college and then from college into the
00:28:51
Working World can be very challenging
00:28:54
these are the first experiences in which
00:28:56
young adults have to rely on their in
00:28:58
ints and their core confidences to take
00:29:00
necessary steps towards their true
00:29:02
passions now when I go back and think
00:29:04
about my college decision and you know
00:29:06
what school do I want to go to and where
00:29:08
is it geographically of course how much
00:29:10
does it cost finances then what am I
00:29:12
going to major in and why am I going to
00:29:14
major in that and what kind of
00:29:15
employment do I hope to get on the other
00:29:17
side let alone some of the logistics I
00:29:19
mean can I even get into this college in
00:29:21
the first place now what I really like
00:29:22
about Evan and what I hope that you all
00:29:24
listening get from our conversation is
00:29:27
that it's a layer decision and it's
00:29:29
worth spending lots of time deciding
00:29:31
that decision it's personal it's
00:29:33
academic it's Financial of course it's
00:29:36
logistical and more than anything else
00:29:38
it's hard to ask a 17-year-old to make
00:29:41
that decision all by themselves and what
00:29:43
Evan dives into in just in funny and
00:29:46
smart ways that I think will get us all
00:29:48
thinking is the fact that we can extend
00:29:50
this decision out over time we can start
00:29:52
asking questions sooner and we can
00:29:54
ensure that our children our loved ones
00:29:57
that the people in our Lives who are
00:29:58
going to college that they're making
00:30:00
better decisions smarter decisions that
00:30:02
lead to Simply Better outcomes in their
00:30:04
own lives that can be better employment
00:30:06
outcomes it can be better Financial
00:30:08
outcomes it can just be a happier life
00:30:10
outcome because they've thought through
00:30:12
this massive decision and they got it
00:30:14
right the first time and so without any
00:30:16
further Ado here's Evan kokis of the
00:30:19
college confidence coach
00:30:21
[Music]
00:30:29
Evan thanks for joining today and I was
00:30:31
looking at your website and I was really
00:30:33
struck by something this idea that high
00:30:35
school students they're faced with the
00:30:37
challenge of deciding what to do after
00:30:38
high school sometimes it's it's one of
00:30:40
the first big decisions they've ever had
00:30:42
to make and so even though this is a
00:30:44
personal finance podcast it's an
00:30:45
investing podcast and we're going to get
00:30:47
into that side of the college decision
00:30:49
today we also have to realize that this
00:30:51
college conversation it's more than just
00:30:53
a financial conversation and i' I'd love
00:30:55
for our conversation here to be this
00:30:57
holistic resource for students and
00:30:59
parents to approach the entire College
00:31:01
conversation so maybe we can actually
00:31:03
start there when you sit down with a
00:31:05
student for the first time and and their
00:31:07
parents for the first time maybe they're
00:31:09
16 or 14 or 12 I mean what does that
00:31:11
initial conversation look like because
00:31:13
I'm assuming it's not purely Financial
00:31:16
yeah I would say at the very earliest
00:31:19
the finances get brought up after we've
00:31:21
determined what the student and the
00:31:23
parents objectives are for contacting
00:31:26
our firm and really getting an
00:31:29
understanding of whether or not we're
00:31:30
the right fit the way that the college
00:31:32
confidence program is designed and where
00:31:35
it originates from is helping students
00:31:37
navigate the first steps of the rest of
00:31:40
their lives and I think that that may
00:31:43
sound grandiose when you when you uh
00:31:46
pitch it for the first time but it
00:31:48
really is the first time that they're
00:31:49
faced with a decision that will impact
00:31:53
everything else that they do moving
00:31:54
forward so for us you know we get a mix
00:31:57
of different amilies who come in some
00:31:58
families are coming in and you know cost
00:32:00
isn't discussed until you know they're
00:32:03
done with the discovery process and some
00:32:04
are coming in and they're objective is
00:32:06
hey we've heard that there are ways to
00:32:09
negotiate and there are tactics to go
00:32:11
through the admissions process to make
00:32:13
College as affordable as possible and
00:32:15
that's what brought us here today so I
00:32:17
guess there's no Universal or right time
00:32:20
to bring that conversation in and it it
00:32:22
depends on the family but obviously
00:32:24
something that we are very very
00:32:26
conscious of and and trying to make the
00:32:28
best decision from all fronts return on
00:32:30
investment you know none the least of
00:32:32
which is part of the journey and process
00:32:34
yeah what are some of the common I mean
00:32:36
if we had to focus on some of the
00:32:38
non-financials I mean what are some of
00:32:40
the most common ones you hear is it
00:32:41
Majors is it the job that they hope to
00:32:44
fulfill once they're out of college is
00:32:46
it my parents went to Michigan so I want
00:32:48
to M want to go to Michigan you know go
00:32:50
Wolverines I mean what what are those
00:32:51
conversations like all of the above
00:32:54
right but when you look at what were
00:32:56
designed and how you avoid the mistakes
00:32:59
that end up leading to what I've termed
00:33:01
for I don't know 12 13 years now as the
00:33:03
college Money Pit trap the way that you
00:33:05
do that is by getting very intentional
00:33:09
into what is my unique ability where are
00:33:12
my unique talents and how does that
00:33:14
align to different career paths and how
00:33:16
does that align to different majors and
00:33:18
you know eventually different
00:33:19
universities we call this internal self
00:33:22
validation and the way that you get to
00:33:25
this really trusted an internal core
00:33:28
belief in the decision that you're
00:33:30
making is that you stop doing what
00:33:32
almost everybody who's 16 to 18 years
00:33:35
old does which is rely on the advice of
00:33:37
the people who you think know you well
00:33:39
and as parents you know we never want to
00:33:42
intentionally give bad advice to our
00:33:44
children and as teachers you don't want
00:33:45
to give bad advice to your students but
00:33:47
most of the time if not all of the time
00:33:49
you are taking a stab at what your child
00:33:52
or what your student is good at based on
00:33:54
external factors well they've always
00:33:56
been good at iner
00:33:58
subject matter you should go and become
00:34:00
insert career path or you know you've
00:34:02
always been inclined to to meet with
00:34:04
people you should become you know an
00:34:06
attorney you should become a broadcaster
00:34:08
you should become a podcaster whatever
00:34:10
that that external factor is and in
00:34:12
reality so many teenagers are starting
00:34:16
at that point to develop you know what
00:34:18
they really believe in and what really
00:34:20
excites them about the future and who
00:34:21
they want to help in their future career
00:34:23
but they're not approached that way and
00:34:25
the education system in general isn't
00:34:27
designed to approach them that way it's
00:34:29
systematic and it's routine and it's
00:34:30
directional and so I would say the
00:34:33
number one thing that we help students
00:34:35
and families with and that I would lend
00:34:37
my advice to any parent that's listening
00:34:40
to the podcast today is a do you
00:34:43
understand your student from a cognitive
00:34:44
and affective and most importantly a
00:34:47
cative level which I'm happy to share
00:34:49
some details on if you want to go into
00:34:51
and then from there reverse engineer the
00:34:52
process too often just like you said
00:34:55
student comes in I want to go to
00:34:57
Michigan well why do you want to go to
00:34:58
Michigan well it's Michigan right like
00:35:00
it's there's no validation and if they
00:35:02
understood the difference between the
00:35:04
raw School of Business at Michigan and
00:35:07
you know the Kelly School of Business at
00:35:08
Indiana even though from a national
00:35:11
ranking standpoint they could be two
00:35:12
different schools there could be
00:35:14
something that's in one program that's
00:35:15
actually a better fit from them that
00:35:17
would yield a higher return on
00:35:19
investment than another and so a lot
00:35:21
packed into you know a short question
00:35:23
that you asked but all of those factors
00:35:25
come back to are you internally self
00:35:27
validated and do you really understand
00:35:29
where you where your unique abilities
00:35:31
and talents are creating a path here
00:35:33
we're definitely going to come back to
00:35:35
was it the college Money Pit because
00:35:37
that that's just that's just too
00:35:38
enticing to ignore so that that'll be
00:35:39
our transition into the finances but
00:35:41
before we talk about that a couple
00:35:43
thoughts the Kelly school at Indiana
00:35:45
Great Name my spouse is Kelly I know
00:35:48
your business partner CJ his spouse is
00:35:50
Kelly and very conly my wife Kelly
00:35:52
graduated from the Kelly school about a
00:35:54
year and a half ago who I don't know how
00:35:56
she would have picked that Kelly going
00:35:57
into the Kelly school it's a great
00:35:59
neighbor business school I promise too
00:36:01
that was not intentional I had no idea
00:36:03
we did not met that out prior to the
00:36:06
podcast but before we before we
00:36:08
transition to the finances I mean some
00:36:09
of what you just outlined there Evan it
00:36:11
almost makes me think of yeah it can be
00:36:13
hard for teenagers to really understand
00:36:16
their own motivations and I don't know
00:36:18
why I thought of this but I had this
00:36:20
vision of you know the 18-year-old who
00:36:21
instead of going to college takes a gap
00:36:24
year and kind of explores the world and
00:36:26
it it sounds a little clich but
00:36:28
discovers thems before deciding what
00:36:30
their path forward is and it almost
00:36:32
sounds like some of your role is is
00:36:35
helping that process or or try are
00:36:36
trying to get the students to think that
00:36:38
way without maybe necessarily taking the
00:36:40
the one-year Safari that kind of thing
00:36:42
but let's dive into you mentioned a word
00:36:44
there that I I doubt many listeners are
00:36:46
familiar with it's conative let let's
00:36:49
dive into that for a couple minutes what
00:36:50
does that mean so conation in the theory
00:36:53
of conation was developed by Kathy Colby
00:36:55
and when you look at background and her
00:36:58
story she's actually the daughter of the
00:37:01
Wonder licks so if you're an NFL fan
00:37:04
you've heard of the wonderlick IQ test
00:37:05
that they used to give to uh prospects
00:37:08
during the combine and Kathy's parents
00:37:10
are the the people and the The
00:37:12
Originators of that and what that test
00:37:15
was intended to do and what it did for
00:37:17
you know as long as they used it in the
00:37:19
combine they recently just changed gears
00:37:20
and went to a another cognitive
00:37:22
assessment which different podcast I I
00:37:25
think that you know that was another
00:37:26
mistake but when you look at where the
00:37:28
theory was founded it was stemmed and
00:37:30
rooted in the idea that if someone was
00:37:33
cognitively inclined for a certain
00:37:35
position that they would perform at a
00:37:38
you know at a better level or at a
00:37:39
better rate and Cathy's thought process
00:37:42
was you can train people cognitive and
00:37:44
that really struck a chord with me I've
00:37:46
always believed that most students who
00:37:50
Peg themselves as you know not a good
00:37:53
math student or I'm not a good science
00:37:54
kid or I'm not creative it's not that
00:37:56
they're not cognitive ly able to perform
00:37:59
in those subjects or those materials
00:38:00
it's that they're affectively or
00:38:02
emotionally not motivated by those
00:38:04
materials and there's a multitude of
00:38:05
factors that can lead to those
00:38:07
deteriorating motivations but when you
00:38:09
look at the theory of conation what it
00:38:11
is the belief and the understanding that
00:38:14
before we have an affective or an
00:38:17
emotional response to any subject or any
00:38:19
task or any person uh and before we
00:38:21
start thinking about it cognitively we
00:38:24
have an instinct and so conation and and
00:38:27
the cative assessment that we use with
00:38:29
students that we use with professionals
00:38:31
that we use with people in career
00:38:33
transition is a measure for how their
00:38:36
instinctive needs would synergize or syn
00:38:40
into certain roles responsibilities and
00:38:43
potential career paths Majors
00:38:45
universities So when you say Discovery
00:38:48
and you know discovering yourself we
00:38:50
don't think that's you know some radical
00:38:52
term at all and you don't need to go to
00:38:54
Europe although I encourage everybody to
00:38:56
do that at some point but what you
00:38:58
really need is a discovery of you and so
00:39:01
Discovery is the nucleus of everything
00:39:03
we do and in the theory of conation and
00:39:05
our coded assessments that we use are a
00:39:08
fundamental part of our Discovery
00:39:10
toolbox and so when we give students
00:39:12
those assessments and there's a couple
00:39:13
of different things that we measure for
00:39:15
their cative abilities their affective
00:39:17
motivations and then cognitively where
00:39:19
are they you know in terms of their
00:39:21
education but that comes so far after
00:39:23
and when they get a look at who they are
00:39:24
from all three areas of their mind
00:39:27
becomes so much more clear for them to
00:39:31
explore a potential career path explore
00:39:34
a potential major and at that point you
00:39:36
take so much out of the guessing game of
00:39:39
well am I making the right decision my
00:39:41
friends are going here should I be going
00:39:43
there I read about this is it something
00:39:45
that I should have paid more attention
00:39:47
to or from a from a major in a career
00:39:49
point perspective you know everybody
00:39:51
told me I should do this I guess that's
00:39:53
what I'm going to do it eliminates that
00:39:55
right Jesse so you're you're going
00:39:56
through the process
00:39:57
you're seeing here's who I am
00:39:59
instinctively and this is what I
00:40:01
instinctively need in order to trigger
00:40:04
positive and rep repetitive emotions you
00:40:08
know that are hopefully positive right
00:40:10
and then that allows the cognitive to
00:40:12
function at its full capacity so it's
00:40:14
the belief that you are capable of doing
00:40:17
anything cognitively if it aligns with
00:40:20
what your conative and instinctive
00:40:21
abilities are triggering first I'm not
00:40:24
going to make this about myself I
00:40:25
promise all you listeners I'm not going
00:40:27
to make this about myself but as you
00:40:28
describe that Evan I do think of my own
00:40:30
story a little bit where I I went to
00:40:33
college mechanical engineering was my
00:40:34
major so I have a bachelor and Masters
00:40:36
in mechanical engineering I worked for a
00:40:38
large Aerospace uh defense engineering
00:40:41
firm for seven years and why well
00:40:44
because when I was in high school math
00:40:46
and science were my best subjects I was
00:40:47
on the science Olympian team I loved it
00:40:49
and even to this day I like getting into
00:40:50
the nitty-gritty and I like
00:40:52
understanding how things work and why
00:40:54
they work but ultimately I didn't really
00:40:56
enjoy the aspect of engineering that
00:40:58
tends to be you sit at your desk you do
00:41:00
analysis work you're pretty much working
00:41:02
by yourself because I also really enjoy
00:41:04
talking to people I really enjoy
00:41:06
educating and I found over time I mean I
00:41:08
ended up in this career path where you
00:41:10
know the best interest blog and the best
00:41:12
interest podcast led to my current
00:41:14
career in wealth management and I like
00:41:16
it so much more than I was doing before
00:41:18
and I think the cynic might say that my
00:41:21
degrees were wasted I don't think my
00:41:22
degrees are wasted because the ability
00:41:24
to solve problems is something I apply
00:41:27
in my work every single day and I really
00:41:29
like the engineering mindset but someone
00:41:31
could say you know boy you should have
00:41:32
been an economics major or a finance
00:41:34
major or something like that a business
00:41:36
major and that leads to this concept of
00:41:38
granted it's a little cynical but it
00:41:40
leads to the concept of you you
00:41:41
mentioned it before what is it the
00:41:42
college Money Pit trap I'm not exactly
00:41:45
sure but I think again the cynic might
00:41:46
say boy Jesse you have two wasted
00:41:48
degrees and however much tuition that is
00:41:50
but what is exactly that college Money
00:41:53
Pit trap so the college Money Pit trap
00:41:55
and I it was actually a a perfect segue
00:41:58
into it so job well done what you did is
00:42:01
not necessarily the foundation of what
00:42:03
the college Money Pit trap is because
00:42:05
and I guess I have to ask you the
00:42:06
question right you you ended up
00:42:07
graduating with that degree you didn't
00:42:09
pivot at any point right correct correct
00:42:11
y so again you know there's a couple
00:42:13
different layers to this when you look
00:42:14
at the college Money Pit trap it's the
00:42:16
fact that most students in the United
00:42:18
States don't graduate in four years
00:42:20
right they end up spending the extra
00:42:22
time in college it takes an extra
00:42:24
semester it takes an extra year
00:42:26
sometimes it takes an extra two two and
00:42:27
a half why does that happen well it's
00:42:30
because most universities are out there
00:42:33
marketing the fact that they offer
00:42:35
hundreds of different Majors as if it's
00:42:37
a good thing right and I guess from a
00:42:39
variety standpoint and a selectivity
00:42:41
standpoint you would want that but when
00:42:43
you're going to a college and you're
00:42:46
choosing a degree path based on the
00:42:48
advice of someone who you think knows
00:42:50
you well and you get two years into it
00:42:52
you know say you did get two years into
00:42:54
that engineering degree and you said you
00:42:56
know what no I I need a finance degree
00:42:58
well the likelihood of all of the
00:43:00
courses and the credits that you've
00:43:01
accumulated at that point for your
00:43:03
engineering degree transferring to the
00:43:05
College of Business is very very slim so
00:43:08
you've invested your time you've
00:43:09
invested your money into the engineering
00:43:12
program at X University and now you've
00:43:16
had the aha moment because you're 20 and
00:43:19
not 18 and you know it's well I really
00:43:21
found what motivates me is you know the
00:43:24
ability to teach others or the ability
00:43:26
to create this Mastery or you know this
00:43:28
nonprofit momentum that I want and I got
00:43:31
to change programs and then at that
00:43:33
point it's like all right great yeah we
00:43:34
we'll get you into the College of
00:43:35
Business no problem 12 out of the 30
00:43:37
credits that you've completed so far are
00:43:39
going to transfer or 20 out of the 60
00:43:41
are going to transfer so go ahead and
00:43:43
you know submit the paperwork and then
00:43:45
we'll graduate in 2029 and it's like
00:43:47
okay well I wish I would have known
00:43:49
prior you know that I that I was going
00:43:51
to make this transition and this move to
00:43:53
the new college so that's the easiest
00:43:55
way to fall into the college Money Pit
00:43:58
trap but there's so many other ways
00:44:00
right not understanding what your powers
00:44:03
are in the high school year in the
00:44:06
decision time that you do have the
00:44:07
ability to appeal and you do have the
00:44:09
ability to negotiate scholarship which
00:44:11
we can go into but they're not taking
00:44:13
advantage of different scholarships
00:44:14
grants loans and opportunities that can
00:44:16
reduce the cost so there's a lot of
00:44:18
different ways that you can get there
00:44:19
but your example is the number one way
00:44:23
that people fall into it because the
00:44:24
longer you're there the more you're
00:44:25
paying it's not rocket science there a
00:44:27
great answer no that's a great answer
00:44:29
yeah I can imagine Evan that parents and
00:44:31
students that's got to be one of the
00:44:33
fears probably especially for the
00:44:35
parents 16 17 18 the children are
00:44:38
gliding into college and the parent has
00:44:40
to have this fear of boy I really hope
00:44:42
there aren't any false starts I I hope
00:44:43
there aren't four changes of majors and
00:44:46
this four-year commitment becomes an
00:44:47
eight-year commitment on that note of
00:44:49
just the things that parents are
00:44:51
thinking about on behalf of their
00:44:53
teenagers what are some things that
00:44:55
parents can do to either increase the
00:44:58
chance of acceptance to to increase
00:45:01
scholarship or Aid packages I mean how
00:45:03
early should people really start
00:45:05
thinking about this kind of stuff what
00:45:06
are the ways that we can increase our
00:45:08
probabilities of having the college path
00:45:11
that we want for our children yeah I
00:45:13
think that's a really good question to
00:45:15
unpack in a couple of different ways so
00:45:18
first and foremost there is no right
00:45:21
time to start the admissions process and
00:45:24
I in any pre-discovery meeting I have
00:45:27
with the family tell them that if you
00:45:29
are in high school the clock started and
00:45:33
the program began the day that you
00:45:36
entered high school and in a lot of
00:45:37
cases it really starts in eth grade
00:45:39
because so many high schools at this
00:45:42
point will take credits from middle
00:45:44
school that uh will end up being visible
00:45:47
on on the students High School
00:45:48
transcript so at 10 11 12 13 years old
00:45:53
you don't really think about college and
00:45:55
a lot of parents you know know it's
00:45:57
coming and maybe financially they've
00:45:59
started to put away you know what they
00:46:01
believe they'll be able to contribute to
00:46:02
the cost but the what what they're
00:46:04
missing and where they could really
00:46:07
start to to get Savvy is helping their
00:46:10
students kind of understand where the
00:46:11
talents are and starting to explore what
00:46:13
different options may be for their
00:46:15
future and you don't want to put
00:46:16
pressure on a 13-year-old to say what
00:46:18
are you gonna do with the rest of your
00:46:20
life but you know maybe it is enrolling
00:46:22
in a couple of different summer camps
00:46:24
maybe it is shadowing different you know
00:46:26
opportunities maybe it's just you know
00:46:28
watching YouTube videos about like what
00:46:30
a day in the life would be and hopefully
00:46:33
you know you don't put your student to
00:46:34
sleep or you wouldn't put pressure on
00:46:35
them to say hey figure this out it's
00:46:37
more like hey like it's never too early
00:46:38
to start looking at at what this might
00:46:40
be so when you're looking at the
00:46:42
admissions process we love starting to
00:46:46
work with students and families as early
00:46:47
as we can no we won't work with them in
00:46:49
elementary school or even Middle School
00:46:51
we do have a middle school program but
00:46:53
that's more so just monitoring and
00:46:54
making sure that things are going well
00:46:55
academically but from the time they
00:46:58
enter High School what clubs they choose
00:47:00
what sports they play What classes they
00:47:03
take what their grades are everything
00:47:05
counts and I don't say that to put
00:47:07
pressure on people I don't say that to
00:47:09
make them afraid or you know to make
00:47:11
them anxious that they have to be
00:47:13
perfect from day one but anything that
00:47:15
you do participate in anything that you
00:47:17
do put your name on has the ability to
00:47:20
showcase on your transcript or your
00:47:23
application so you want to be involved
00:47:25
in things and hopefully you're you're
00:47:27
fortunate enough to understand yourself
00:47:29
ctively affectively and cognitively and
00:47:31
align yourselves in different activities
00:47:33
that you could potentially see yourself
00:47:35
doing from ninth grade to 12th grade
00:47:37
colleges value longevity they value
00:47:40
tenure you know in the things that you
00:47:41
participated in it shows a commitment
00:47:44
and the last thing they want is their
00:47:46
retention rate to fall right so if they
00:47:48
see that Johnny was captain of the crew
00:47:51
team Junior and Senior year but was you
00:47:53
know rowing since sixth grade and that
00:47:56
Rebecca is captain of the debate team
00:47:58
but also shadowed at a law firm and I
00:48:02
guess where I'm going with it is it
00:48:04
shows that the student has been
00:48:07
intentional with the journey that they
00:48:09
you know that they're on and that
00:48:10
they're they've applied for and so that
00:48:13
is a way that colleges are able to
00:48:15
review an application and say this is a
00:48:18
student that we really want to come here
00:48:19
so let's give them and incentivize them
00:48:21
with a little bit more merit scholarship
00:48:23
to reward them for their efforts and
00:48:25
that's one of 25 different strategies I
00:48:27
can think of off the top of my head but
00:48:29
the point is that it starts from the day
00:48:30
you enter I like part of your answer
00:48:32
there I mean I like your whole answer
00:48:34
let me start with that Evan but I I
00:48:35
specifically liked part of your answer
00:48:37
because we we have these balancing
00:48:39
conflicting kind of goals here where on
00:48:42
the one hand we want our children to be
00:48:44
successful we want to set them up for
00:48:46
success but at the same time we want to
00:48:48
be cognizant of the fact that we're
00:48:50
talking about 15-year-old and 16year old
00:48:52
kids we don't want to put the weight of
00:48:53
the world on their shoulders and
00:48:55
something I really like about your
00:48:56
approach and what we've been talking
00:48:58
about today is if you can understand
00:49:00
your children your students you can
00:49:03
understand what really motivates them
00:49:04
and what they really want to do then we
00:49:06
can align all of these things in the
00:49:08
same direction meaning if through the
00:49:10
testing and through getting to know the
00:49:12
student we understand that you know what
00:49:14
they actually are pretty well aligned
00:49:16
for this idea where maybe they would
00:49:17
enjoy Debate Club a lot and they would
00:49:19
enjoy shadowing at the local law firm
00:49:22
and they'd enjoy a real a service role
00:49:24
where they're working as an attorney and
00:49:25
if those Stars line and the student
00:49:28
naturally wants to start moving in that
00:49:29
direction and it also happens to build
00:49:32
their resume and get them into the right
00:49:34
school and into the right program at
00:49:36
that school then all of a sudden you are
00:49:38
kind of you're cooking with gas you've
00:49:39
got something good going on because some
00:49:41
of the the horror stories and I'm
00:49:42
interested if anything really comes to
00:49:44
mind from your end some of the horror
00:49:45
stories that you hear from say my end of
00:49:47
the personal finance world is someone
00:49:49
who says you know at 14 I had to join
00:49:51
every Club I had to play every sport
00:49:53
because I had to get into the ivy school
00:49:55
and I had to get to the ivy School
00:49:56
because I had to get into Yale law I had
00:49:59
to get to Yale law because I had to get
00:50:01
that associate job at the big New York
00:50:02
firm and then become the partner and
00:50:04
then become the managing partner and
00:50:06
next you know I'm 45 years old and I'm
00:50:08
burnt out and from the time I was 14 I
00:50:11
was doing everything in life just to hit
00:50:13
that next goal that next goal that next
00:50:14
goal and why what was it all for so
00:50:17
that's kind of the horror story and
00:50:19
sometimes it starts so early does that
00:50:20
trigger any sort of stories or thoughts
00:50:22
from from your point of view 100% we
00:50:24
call it the the anxious accountant it's
00:50:26
in one of our Publications and we were
00:50:28
working with this girl who came to us at
00:50:31
19 20 years old so fortunately she had
00:50:34
her breakdown prior to 40 but you know
00:50:36
her whole life she had watched everyone
00:50:38
in her family work for one of the big
00:50:39
four accounting firms I won't throw the
00:50:41
name under the bus but Dad was a
00:50:43
managing partner and you know that was
00:50:45
the path and her brother went down that
00:50:46
path and her sister went down that path
00:50:48
and then it got to her and everybody was
00:50:50
like all right you know we'll see you
00:50:52
we'll see you at work in four years or
00:50:53
five years after you get your MBA good
00:50:55
luck you know went through it and got
00:50:58
great grades and was masking everything
00:50:59
really well that this was the path and I
00:51:01
got into the university I was supposed
00:51:03
to and I'm in the program that I'm
00:51:04
supposed to be in and that's going to
00:51:06
lead me to my job offer in another
00:51:08
couple years and then the moment
00:51:10
happened where it was a complete panic
00:51:13
attack it was a complete outof body
00:51:15
experience where it was I'm not going to
00:51:18
be happy doing this and I'm not going to
00:51:19
be happy but I don't want to tell my mom
00:51:21
and dad and so kudos to her and the
00:51:23
story is that she reached out to us and
00:51:26
wasn't you know a typical engagement
00:51:28
where a parent reaches out to us and
00:51:29
says hey help my student this was a girl
00:51:32
at 19 years old 20 years old at the
00:51:34
University that she was attending
00:51:36
Googling where to find support for
00:51:37
something like this fortunately we
00:51:39
crossed paths and then I had to have an
00:51:41
intersection meeting with the parents to
00:51:42
say listen I'm mediating this at this
00:51:44
point by your daughter's request you
00:51:46
have her on a path which I think you
00:51:47
know makes a lot of sense and brings a
00:51:49
lot of stability but I've profiled your
00:51:51
daughter and she has initiating
00:51:54
improvising cative abilities and in
00:51:56
order for her to really fulfill her
00:51:59
needs and where she's going to find
00:52:02
success and long-term success she needs
00:52:04
a career path that allows for more
00:52:06
improvisation that Pro that provides an
00:52:09
ability to be you know more spontaneous
00:52:11
and I really suggest that we we explore
00:52:13
a couple different paths here and Mom
00:52:15
and Dad were both like what she
00:52:17
contacted you about that and yeah you
00:52:19
know she did and things aren't going
00:52:21
great you should really emotionally
00:52:22
check in right now and they said well we
00:52:24
always knew she shouldn't be an
00:52:25
accountant and I was like so why why put
00:52:27
the round hole or round you know peg in
00:52:29
the square hole like what what were we
00:52:31
thinking here and it ended up being like
00:52:33
almost humorous but the fact that she
00:52:35
for 20 years held that in and didn't
00:52:38
feel that she was confident enough to
00:52:39
express it or had been conditioned to
00:52:42
think that this was the only path the
00:52:43
safest path led to a you know a total
00:52:45
breakdown which thankfully led to
00:52:47
Clarity but how many people don't get to
00:52:49
that point I love that story I love that
00:52:51
story here's a quick ad and then we'll
00:52:54
get back to the show serious question
00:52:56
question why do podcasters constantly
00:52:58
ask for ratings and reviews yes they do
00:53:01
help highlight our shows to new
00:53:03
listeners they help strangers find us on
00:53:05
Apple podcast and Spotify it's totally
00:53:07
true and a good reason to ask for
00:53:09
ratings and reviews but I have something
00:53:11
more important at least more important
00:53:13
to me I want to know if you like this
00:53:15
stuff I want to know if you like my
00:53:17
podcast episodes my monologues my guests
00:53:20
the information I share with you and the
00:53:21
stories I tell I want to improve and
00:53:23
make your listening more enjoyable in
00:53:25
the process so yeah yeah I would love to
00:53:27
read your reviews and sure if you throw
00:53:29
a rating in there too that's great if
00:53:32
you like what I'm doing please share it
00:53:34
with me it's such a great feeling to
00:53:35
read your feedback I'd love to read your
00:53:38
review or see a rating on Apple podcasts
00:53:41
or Spotify thank you let's think now
00:53:44
let's pivot back a little bit to the
00:53:45
financial side I know some listeners out
00:53:47
there have cost Consciousness on on the
00:53:50
front of their minds college is more
00:53:52
expensive than ever you probably know
00:53:54
the data right off the top of your head
00:53:56
let's think of someone who is very is is
00:53:58
thinking about the bill you know the
00:54:00
bottom line and and some of the the
00:54:02
shortcuts if you will that I've heard
00:54:03
before or commonly talked about things
00:54:05
like you know State schools are cheaper
00:54:07
than private schools community college
00:54:09
credits are cheaper than than most other
00:54:11
credits and they transfer in students
00:54:13
they can get college credit while
00:54:14
they're still in high school I'm sure
00:54:16
there's some other kind of lwh hanging
00:54:18
fruit that maybe you're dealing with on
00:54:19
a regular basis what kind of advice can
00:54:21
you offer to the people out there who
00:54:23
are really worried about the cost of
00:54:24
college so couple different pieces so
00:54:27
point one everything that you mentioned
00:54:29
is true right there wasn't one thing
00:54:30
that I I would poke a hole in public
00:54:33
college on a a sheet and expected cost
00:54:36
is less expensive in most cases than
00:54:38
private school you can accumulate
00:54:40
community college credits that will
00:54:42
transfer to some you know public or
00:54:45
private universities you can start
00:54:47
taking dual enrollment credits in high
00:54:49
school there's so many different ways
00:54:51
right but when you look at the number
00:54:54
one piece of advice that I would give
00:54:56
anyone who's cost conscious it is start
00:55:00
demonstrating your interest as early as
00:55:03
possible a lot of these schools and
00:55:05
again if you're applying to Harvard or
00:55:07
you're applying to Michigan from out of
00:55:09
state that advice really isn't
00:55:11
applicable here you're if you're going
00:55:12
to go to a school like that you are
00:55:14
going to pay full price I guess another
00:55:16
piece of reality that I should be
00:55:17
talking to the cost conscious if you
00:55:18
want to be cost conscious make sure your
00:55:20
student knows that you're going to be
00:55:21
costc conscious because if they're going
00:55:23
and their goal is Harbor and their goal
00:55:24
is Princeton and you think you're going
00:55:26
to going to get something from those
00:55:27
schools you're you're in for another
00:55:28
harsh conversation but for you know a
00:55:31
student who doesn't know where they want
00:55:33
to go and they're going to explore you
00:55:35
know a multitude of different public and
00:55:37
private universities most of those
00:55:39
tuitions are negotiable and the way that
00:55:42
they become more and more negotiable
00:55:44
Beyond putting together an application
00:55:46
that is you know admirable by the
00:55:49
admissions committee who's reviewing it
00:55:51
you do have the ability to connect with
00:55:53
the uh admissions board or your Regional
00:55:56
admission adviser at the universities
00:55:58
that you plan to apply to and by
00:55:59
demonstrating that interest and starting
00:56:01
to let them know that if you were
00:56:04
offered the right amount that there's a
00:56:06
very high likelihood that they would get
00:56:08
you as a committed student and a
00:56:10
committed family that's one negotiating
00:56:12
tactic that we start working with really
00:56:15
really early on in the process so to get
00:56:17
it to something that's a little bit more
00:56:18
tangible and something that's a little
00:56:19
bit more applicable to the everyday
00:56:22
listener I would encourage everyone to
00:56:26
create a list by no later than the end
00:56:28
of sophomore year maybe the beginning of
00:56:30
junior year at the latest that has a mix
00:56:32
of those schools that you have done your
00:56:35
research that you understand what the
00:56:36
average cost to attend is and make a
00:56:40
list that is you know tiered three
00:56:42
different ways here are schools that we
00:56:45
know are going to be financially more
00:56:47
than the schools that are at the bottom
00:56:49
of the list and then the schools in the
00:56:50
middle are the ones that we feel we
00:56:51
might have the most negotiating power in
00:56:53
so be very transparent with that with
00:56:56
your your child you know as they're
00:56:57
going through the process and also do
00:56:59
your research I mean most of these
00:57:01
schools at this point are under a lot
00:57:03
more pressure than they've ever been
00:57:05
before have you ever heard of University
00:57:07
of the people no no what is that after
00:57:10
you you're done listening to the podcast
00:57:12
or if you want to hop on your you know
00:57:13
your browser on your phone right now
00:57:14
Google University of the people it is a
00:57:16
fully accredited bachelor's or master's
00:57:19
degree that you get in under 2 and A2
00:57:21
years for about 3,000 bucks the courses
00:57:25
that you take are actually courses from
00:57:27
Harvard from University of Washington
00:57:30
from Northeastern from highly accredited
00:57:33
institutions and it's all there for you
00:57:35
there's no live lectures you have to be
00:57:37
there at this time you just get through
00:57:39
but it's an accredited bachelor's degree
00:57:40
so as opposed to Southern New Hampshire
00:57:42
or you know Phoenix and all all these
00:57:44
places that you have seen commercials
00:57:46
for for the last 10 years University of
00:57:48
the people is really Shifting the
00:57:49
landscape that's it's a certified
00:57:50
bachelor's degree with a multitude of
00:57:52
different influences in your training
00:57:54
and education so again three different
00:57:57
points that I made there right
00:57:58
demonstrate interest to the schools that
00:57:59
you're really interested in make sure
00:58:01
that you're being transparent with your
00:58:03
child in terms of what costs of
00:58:05
different schools look like and make
00:58:06
sure that everybody is aware of that but
00:58:08
three make sure that you know what the
00:58:09
alternative options are there's so many
00:58:11
students who I work with that I
00:58:13
recommend at least exploring that as a
00:58:15
path because if you can get that in two
00:58:17
years why not get two bachelor's degrees
00:58:18
for sixth Grand instead of going and
00:58:20
trying to figure it out for but again
00:58:22
that's not a it's not a path for
00:58:23
everybody but it has shifted education
00:58:25
because if more and more University of
00:58:28
the peoples keep popping up traditional
00:58:30
universities are going to be forced to
00:58:32
keep up with their own you know
00:58:34
alternative methods or otherwise it's
00:58:36
just capitalism right right yeah totally
00:58:38
totally it's competition and this is
00:58:40
this a multi 100,000 decision in many
00:58:43
cases so I think it does it it behooves
00:58:45
you to do your research and to really
00:58:47
understand the nitty-gritty of what
00:58:48
you're getting into and why you're
00:58:50
getting into it and it's why you know
00:58:51
that it kind of comes full circle with
00:58:53
the college Money Pit trap and this idea
00:58:55
of boy it you really want to try to
00:58:57
avoid those false starts you want to try
00:58:59
to avoid that anxious accountant who
00:59:01
gets two years in and has a mental
00:59:02
breakdown and and it all of these things
00:59:05
that we're talking about really are
00:59:06
related right the finances are related
00:59:09
to the students motivations and the
00:59:10
students desires for all these different
00:59:12
reasons and and supporting another
00:59:13
thought you said there Evan which is the
00:59:15
idea that you know people need to be
00:59:16
honest with themselves and you use the
00:59:18
word transparent a couple times that's
00:59:20
something that I see on my end when
00:59:21
we're helping people a lot of times the
00:59:23
questions that we help answer are things
00:59:24
like how much should I be putting in 529
00:59:26
right now Jimmy is four and Carol she's
00:59:29
two how much do we need to put in at 529
00:59:32
today great great questions we're happy
00:59:34
to help answer those questions but a lot
00:59:36
of it comes down to well let's be honest
00:59:38
let's talk about what the prices of
00:59:39
colleges might be in 10 or 15 years
00:59:42
let's talk about how much you want to
00:59:43
help your children versus how much you
00:59:45
expect them to take on say in loans and
00:59:47
maybe we can come back to loans in a few
00:59:49
minutes but that idea of transparency I
00:59:51
think is very important but another
00:59:53
common question that I'm curious how
00:59:55
much you help and how much you work with
00:59:58
Evan is the FAFSA can can you really
01:00:00
briefly just maybe describe to the
01:00:02
audience who's unfamiliar just real
01:00:03
quick what the FAFSA is and then are
01:00:05
there anything that parents can do to
01:00:07
quote unquote optimize no not
01:00:09
necessarily defraud we don't want to do
01:00:10
anything illegal but optimize their
01:00:12
FAFSA Jesse you are bringing up the
01:00:17
hottest Topic in college admissions and
01:00:20
financial aid that I've ever seen I mean
01:00:22
I've been a professional since I created
01:00:24
this business in 200 12 and you know I
01:00:27
have an aafs an accredited college
01:00:29
financial specialist the Mark I have
01:00:32
that Mark on on my pedigree and you know
01:00:34
we've been doing fafsas with our
01:00:36
families and filing fafsas with our
01:00:37
families for the last 12 years first and
01:00:40
foremost the FAFSA is the Federal Form
01:00:43
that you are not necessarily required
01:00:46
which is a common misunderstanding but
01:00:48
encouraged to fill out simultaneously
01:00:50
while you're applying to different
01:00:51
colleges and this year it has taken a
01:00:55
very very drastic change so I'll get
01:00:58
into that in a second but when you do
01:01:00
file the form regardless of the changes
01:01:02
that have been made the objective is to
01:01:04
determine whether or not the family is
01:01:06
eligible for need-based and pel grants
01:01:10
if your financial circumstances the
01:01:13
amount of children that you have the
01:01:14
amount of dependence that you are
01:01:15
responsible for your income your assets
01:01:18
your business Farms anything that you
01:01:20
declare if it doesn't meet the
01:01:23
expectation of what's needed to fulfill
01:01:25
the student cost of education then
01:01:27
there's an opportunity for you to
01:01:29
receive a Federal grant regardless of
01:01:32
whether or not you qualify for the
01:01:34
need-based once your expected family
01:01:36
contribution is calculated which again I
01:01:38
promise I'll Circle back to anybody who
01:01:40
files the FAFSA or the majority of
01:01:43
people who file the FAFSA are then
01:01:45
eligible for the federal subsidized and
01:01:47
unsubsidized loans and so those are
01:01:49
fixed amounts that increase as you
01:01:51
continue through your undergraduate
01:01:53
years but it starts with a $3,000
01:01:54
federal subsidized loan and a $2,500 un
01:01:57
unsubsidized Federal Loan that you
01:01:59
become eligible for once you complete
01:02:01
the FAFSA so that's the holistic view on
01:02:04
on what it is and prior to this year I
01:02:08
would say that there were opportunities
01:02:11
to optimize your chances at receiving
01:02:14
grants from the FAFSA however this year
01:02:19
there's been a totally interjected
01:02:21
change that has been implemented by you
01:02:24
know an IRS review process that you
01:02:27
automatically you know declare that you
01:02:29
are comfortable with when you get to a
01:02:31
certain point in the form where it links
01:02:33
your most recent tax return to your
01:02:36
FAFSA ID and your student's FAFSA ID and
01:02:39
then leaves a very limited amount of
01:02:42
questions for you to fill in so
01:02:43
previously you would manually enter your
01:02:47
income you'd manually enter the tax that
01:02:49
you paid you'd manually enter what you
01:02:51
conceivably thought you could contribute
01:02:54
to your child's education and you would
01:02:56
go into your assets and you'd go into
01:02:59
anything else that they would ask about
01:03:01
on this form and you'd be able to fill
01:03:02
that in manually now unfortunately for a
01:03:05
lot of families that's not possible
01:03:08
they've done away with a lot of it so
01:03:09
they've automated it which is great for
01:03:11
families who are in positions that hey
01:03:14
there's really not that much to report
01:03:15
here and there's not really much to you
01:03:17
know to to decipher whether or not we
01:03:18
should be reporting it's not great for
01:03:20
the student and family who do have maybe
01:03:23
a more complicated Financial picture and
01:03:25
while they may look like there's there's
01:03:27
more money on the table on paper a lot
01:03:30
of those resources are being allocated
01:03:31
to different Investments or retirement
01:03:33
accounts or it's not necessarily there
01:03:35
just for the students taking or for the
01:03:37
college to say hey here's your EFC which
01:03:39
stands for expected family contribution
01:03:42
once you get that EFC and the FAFSA
01:03:44
calculates that number at this point
01:03:46
it's much harder but still possible to
01:03:49
go back to the university and and
01:03:51
explain to them uh that you'd like to be
01:03:53
flagged for verification and explain
01:03:55
things in a little bit more detail to
01:03:56
them but it's far less likely than it
01:03:58
used to be so again I don't know if I'm
01:04:01
painting the most optimistic picture for
01:04:03
our listeners today I think things have
01:04:04
definitely changed dramatically and we
01:04:06
haven't even seen FAFSA start processing
01:04:08
until you know about a month ago and
01:04:10
typically it would open in October your
01:04:13
EFC would be processed on the spot now
01:04:15
if they delayed the opening until
01:04:17
January most pasas and and PSA profiles
01:04:21
have just begun processing so that's
01:04:23
causing delays in admissions processing
01:04:25
it's causing delays in decision
01:04:27
processes it's it's really going to be a
01:04:30
problem not just for this class of 2024
01:04:32
but for the class of 2025 and hopefully
01:04:34
not beyond that but the changes that
01:04:36
have been made have been so drastic that
01:04:38
it definitely has taken away a lot of
01:04:40
opportunity to optimized got it got it
01:04:43
so to summarize a big kind of
01:04:45
fundamental shift in the way that fafsas
01:04:47
are filled out by parents and by
01:04:49
students and that logistically speaking
01:04:52
is kind of they're working out the Kinks
01:04:54
and that's causing some real Ripple
01:04:56
effects just in the admission process
01:04:57
and the acceptance process and the
01:04:59
decision-making process but from a
01:05:01
purely Financial point of view you're
01:05:03
saying the old FAFSA had some some
01:05:06
wiggle room so to speak or there are
01:05:08
some opportunities for optimization and
01:05:10
the new FAFSA not so much well the old
01:05:13
FAFSA was at your discretion right so if
01:05:16
you felt that the value of your business
01:05:18
was X you're not going to tell them that
01:05:19
the value of your business is zero
01:05:21
because that would be fraud right but if
01:05:23
you felt that the value of where your
01:05:24
business was and what it was evaluate it
01:05:26
at was less than what a form made DET
01:05:29
determine that it is you were able to
01:05:31
put that number and then it was up to
01:05:33
the school's discretion at that point to
01:05:35
come to you and say Dear Mr Kramer Why
01:05:38
why did you fulfill this number and can
01:05:39
you explain it to us and more often than
01:05:41
not it led to a very transparent
01:05:43
conversation I hate to keep using that
01:05:45
word but it's just it fits you know here
01:05:47
so you'd have a transparent conversation
01:05:48
with the financial aid representative or
01:05:50
the admissions representative depending
01:05:52
on whether or not you were negotiating
01:05:53
for more Merit or need-based Aid paid
01:05:56
and again now we should do a follow-up
01:05:59
interview at the end of the summer or
01:06:01
the beginning of the fall when the FAFSA
01:06:03
actually is a little bit more settled so
01:06:04
we'll see how that works but at this
01:06:07
point what we're finding is that the EFC
01:06:10
that's being calculated by the new form
01:06:12
is off the charts I mean just to give
01:06:14
you a practical example I was working
01:06:17
with a family uh just yesterday who the
01:06:20
father owns a successful business and
01:06:22
you know does well but wouldn't consider
01:06:25
himself well by any means and has saved
01:06:27
enough for what he thought that he'd
01:06:28
need to contribute but his son got into
01:06:30
UC Berkeley and he's from out of state
01:06:33
and it's a a lofty price tag that comes
01:06:35
along with that and then he's looking at
01:06:37
his EFC and it came back in like you
01:06:39
know hundreds and hundreds of thousands
01:06:40
of dollars and he's like how did that
01:06:42
happen and I said well because what they
01:06:45
did is in the new FAFSA on your your
01:06:48
report or on your return it took your
01:06:50
business's gross income and then the net
01:06:53
of what you paid in taxes and it calcul
01:06:55
that hey you can afford $300,000 plus to
01:06:58
contribute to your child's education
01:07:00
whether or not that's true is completely
01:07:01
irrelevant because the form calculated
01:07:03
it and he didn't have the opportunity so
01:07:06
now I've told him with UC schools I
01:07:08
don't know how much wiggle room there is
01:07:09
at all but at the same point that he
01:07:11
should at least formalize that he would
01:07:13
like the opportunity to appeal that
01:07:15
scholarship with the university yeah
01:07:17
that that's very interesting EV and that
01:07:19
leads to this whole student loan
01:07:20
question student loans are a almost a
01:07:22
topic unto themselves and actually you
01:07:24
you mentioned coming back i' I'd love to
01:07:25
have you back on the podcast in the
01:07:27
future and maybe we'll do a deep dive on
01:07:29
student loans then so listeners keep
01:07:31
your lookout for that maybe it'll take
01:07:33
us a few months but just because we we
01:07:35
can't let student loans go untouched
01:07:36
today I mean real quick do you have a
01:07:38
minute or two just to kind of give a
01:07:40
very high level overview of what you see
01:07:41
going on with student loans right now
01:07:43
yeah absolutely I mean again I'll save a
01:07:46
lot of this for the for the deeper dive
01:07:48
but when you look at it from a 30,000
01:07:50
put view there's obvious advantages to
01:07:53
taking certain loans and then there's
01:07:54
obvious you fundamental principles of
01:07:56
not wanting to bury students in debt and
01:07:59
you know with varied interest rates and
01:08:01
the way that you know Distributors are
01:08:03
attracting students and families I think
01:08:04
it's critical that families are paying
01:08:06
attention to the fine print and you know
01:08:08
I have so many families who talk to me
01:08:10
about well loan forgiveness is here to
01:08:11
stay and you know why do we have to
01:08:13
worry about it it's not the reality it's
01:08:15
it's not long term it's not a solution
01:08:17
it is going to be a conversation starter
01:08:21
I'm sure for at least the next decade
01:08:23
but at this point my very highlevel
01:08:27
advice is that the Federal Loan that
01:08:29
you're offered by completing the FAFSA
01:08:31
is a favorable loan and I do encourage
01:08:33
almost everyone regardless of their
01:08:34
financial position to take that loan and
01:08:37
if you have the ability to pay it back
01:08:39
as the student is in school absolutely
01:08:41
do that and let the student pay it don't
01:08:43
do it in your name let it be in their
01:08:45
name so they can build some credit with
01:08:46
it but in terms of private loans and all
01:08:49
of the the nuances and missteps that
01:08:51
people make with that I think we should
01:08:52
give the listeners a deeper dive on on
01:08:54
all of the danger and the opportunities
01:08:56
within it and we will do exactly that
01:08:59
Evan thank you so much for joining us
01:09:01
today I mean I learned a ton and I so I
01:09:03
know listeners will have learned a lot
01:09:04
too and now you're in my my second
01:09:07
adoptive Hometown Buffalo New York an
01:09:09
hour down the threeway from Rochester
01:09:10
and I know you work with plenty of
01:09:12
buffalonians but do you work with anyone
01:09:14
out of state in the rest of the country
01:09:16
and then on that note if anyone wants to
01:09:19
get a hold of you how can they find you
01:09:21
whether it's for the college work that
01:09:22
we Dove deep on today but you also do
01:09:24
some work on the professional side that
01:09:27
some people might be interested in so
01:09:28
how can people reach you so anybody can
01:09:31
reach us for college confidence coach
01:09:33
the website is the CC coach.com for MGM
01:09:37
coaching it's MGM coach.com and we
01:09:40
actually are are thrilled and this is
01:09:42
the first Public Announcement that we
01:09:44
have just launched our third coaching
01:09:45
company which is called Thrive together
01:09:47
which is relationship coaching parenting
01:09:50
advice connection with your partner from
01:09:52
a cative level so all three coaching
01:09:54
companies are incorporating a similar
01:09:57
Discovery nucleus in the assessments and
01:09:59
the tools and the exercises that we do
01:10:00
to get there with very different
01:10:02
objectives so you could Google me you
01:10:04
could go to any of the the individual
01:10:05
company websites but chesse we work with
01:10:08
people not just in state or nationally
01:10:11
but internationally so wherever you are
01:10:13
you know the world is so easy to connect
01:10:15
and it's so small at this point we're
01:10:17
proud to work with students in almost
01:10:18
every state in the United States and and
01:10:20
several countries outside it so don't
01:10:22
hesitate to reach out we have the
01:10:24
technological capab abilities of helping
01:10:26
and we're excited to to meet you at
01:10:27
whatever point in your journey you're in
01:10:29
fantastic we will throw those links in
01:10:31
the show notes everybody so you can find
01:10:32
Evan there and I can vouch for what Evan
01:10:35
just said because we're talking via Zoom
01:10:36
essentially right now and it was a very
01:10:38
easy fantastic conversation so don't let
01:10:41
the geographical distance get in your
01:10:42
way and so Evan guokas thank you for
01:10:45
joining us on the best interest podcast
01:10:47
Jesse thanks for having me I'm looking
01:10:49
forward to the next
01:10:50
one thanks for tuning in to this episode
01:10:53
of the best interest podcast if you have
01:10:55
a question for Jesse to answer on a
01:10:57
future episode send him an email at
01:10:59
Jesse bestin interest. blog again that's
01:11:03
Jessy at bestter interest. blog did you
01:11:06
enjoy the show subscribe rate and review
01:11:08
the podcast wherever you listen this
01:11:11
helps others find the show and invest in
01:11:13
knowledge themselves and we really
01:11:15
appreciate it we'll catch you on the
01:11:17
next episode of the best interest
01:11:22
podcast the best interest podcast is a
01:11:24
personal podcast
01:11:25
me for education and entertainment it
01:11:28
should not be taken as Financial advice
01:11:30
and is not prescriptive of your
01:11:31
financial situation
