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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello and welcome to episode 89
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer later in today's episode
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Katie got tosson from the money with
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Katie show will be joining us we're very
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excited to have Katie on the show but
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first we're going to do our usual little
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thing a quick little monologue from me
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and before we get to that we'll have our
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customary review of the week this one
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comes in from WRB Superman who wrote
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excellent concise easy to understand and
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responsive my multi-millionaire friend
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recommended the best interest podcast
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and it is my go-to on my drive into to
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work well Superman I'm glad that your
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friend made the referral and and and the
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fact that they seemingly have found some
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financial success hopefully means that
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they have uh good taste in podcasts
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thank you for the kind words I'm glad
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you find it concise and easy to
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understand that is the goal here so WRB
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Superman if you're listening to this
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shoot me an email Jesse bestter
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interest. blog and we'll get you hooked
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up with a super soft best-interest
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t-shirt and now as you'll hear later
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Katie from the money with Katie show
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does a really cool job of kind of
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weaving in stories that have to do with
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the economy RIT large society as a whole
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and how these things affect us on a
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personal finance level and one topic
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that I've written about a few times
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before and I I think I'm have some some
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nuanced thoughts on where I kind of see
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both sides of the argument is the whole
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student loan conversation so I'm going
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to talk a little bit before we bring
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Katie on today about some of my thoughts
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on student loan forgiveness or the whole
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student loan and student debt epidemic
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that that we're seeing here in the US
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now this first post is called loan
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forgiveness ain't magic and I think this
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is useful and helpful and it it's just
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factual it's not too opinionated yet
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it's the kind of thing where I mean
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share this with anyone in your friend
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group who believes that Uncle Sam that
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the US government can just magically
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snap his giant fingers to eliminate
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student loan debt because student loan
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forgiveness is not the same as student
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loan disappearance there's nothing magic
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going on here and we're going to start
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with a very simple loan analogy imagine
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that you lend $500 to your brother and
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of course that $500 could be in your
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pocket earning you know 4% in a high
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yield savings account so you agreed to a
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4% interest rate on the loan and I know
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would you charge your own brother
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interest well first off relax it's an
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analogy and second off at least here in
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the USA even personal loans like family
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loans and friend loans per the IRS per
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the law you need to charge interest on
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those loans of course you can do
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something behind the irs's back if you
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want to that is on you but yeah
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technically speaking you do have to
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charge interest on loans even to family
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it's okay you lend your brother $500 and
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you charge him interest and your brother
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makes a few payments back to you but
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eventually your brother complains to
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your parents he says that the loan is
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just too burdensome and he wants it
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forgiven and he must be pretty
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convincing cuz he convinces your parents
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and your parents agree and they forgive
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the loan so poof Presto magic the loan
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is now forgiven and of course from that
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day on everybody lives happily ever
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after well except for you right because
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you're still out the $500 you can't just
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make a loan disappear because somebody
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somewhere is owed that money so let's
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repeat that you can't just make a loan
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disappear because somebody somewhere is
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owed that money now when a loan is
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Forgiven their forgiving party such as
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your parents they take on responsibility
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for that loan they pay the lender that's
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you they pay the lender the balance of
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the loan and then they tell the borrower
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your brother that they are now forgiven
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but forgiveness is not the same as
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disappearance because someone and in
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this case it's your parents someone is
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now out the $500 right the original $500
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principal is still quote unquote missing
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and that debt or that payment either
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ends up on your parents balance sheet as
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a debt or it ends up on their
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essentially their cash flow or their p&l
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statement if you were a business it ends
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up somewhere as a loss someone is losing
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that money now an alternative
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forgiveness method I suppose something
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like the government forcing A lender to
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forgive a loan is the equivalent of your
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parents forcing you to just eat the $500
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debt that your brother owes you how you
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know the Injustice right I mean that's
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just not fair now in the case of student
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loans here in the US about 92% of
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student loan debt is owned by the US
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government the US government is the
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lender in that case it's not owned by a
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person uh like the way that you would
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own your brother's debt it's not owned
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by private lenders only about 8% of US
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debt is owned by private lenders now I
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think that this fact the fact that an
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intangible government body owns the debt
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combined with some other factors like
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loan forgiveness programs political loan
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forgiveness rhetoric combined with the
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fact that we don't always clearly
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understand or explain how loan
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forgiveness actually works it leads
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people to falsely believe that the
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government can magically make student
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loans simply disappear well the debt
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doesn't dis disappear right it's either
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paid off and forgiven where the
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government takes on responsibility for
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the loans just like your parents took on
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responsibility for the the money that
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your brother owed to you or the loans
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could be unjustly and and forcibly
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forgiven which as far as I can tell
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doesn't happen in Equitable Society
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that's kind of like a Law and Order type
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thing it just that wouldn't happen in in
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in a fair society that wouldn't happen
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so in other words it's really just the
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first option it's the first option where
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the government decides to take on the
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debt themselves onto their balance sheet
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and since the federal government
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obviously owns 92% of the student loan
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debt it means that student loan
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forgiveness equates to the government
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eating that loss just as your parents
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could have eaten the $500 your brother
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owed you and what that really means is
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that taxpayers will eat the loss now is
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that good is that bad well that's not
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really the point of this article
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personally I'm a big fan of certain ways
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in which the government chooses to spend
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money to benefit Society
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and I really don't like other ways in
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which it chooses to spend money and I
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bet you have your opinions too and you
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probably like some governmental spending
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and you dislike others now personally
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I'm a big fan as an example of the pslf
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which is public sector loan forgiveness
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program and and similar programs
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although in practice the programs
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Administration has been bungled pretty
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badly pslf if you're not familiar it's
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not complete forgiveness it requires a
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borrower to make uh 10 years worth of
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ontime payments of their student loans
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and it also requires that person to work
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a public service job for 10 years
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something like a teacher or a law
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enforcement officer or a firefighter in
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other words it requires the borrower to
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make some sacrifices and to give back to
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society in a very direct way through a
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public service job and if they follow
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those two rules 10 years worth of
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payments and then 10 years in a public
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service job the remainder of their loan
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is forgiven by tax dollars right by tax
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dollars so it's this middle of the road
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solution that incentivizes something
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that our society needs that's a win-win
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so anyway that's just one of my opinions
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now I'm not here to pass judgment on the
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government or taxpayers taking a loss on
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their balance sheet to forgive student
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loans I mean maybe it's net positive
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maybe not but the point instead is a
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simple reminder to you listening that
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loan forgiveness isn't Magic the debt
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must be paid off somehow someone must
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take responsibility for that debt
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somehow and in the case of these student
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loan forgiveness proposals
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the method that's going on behind the
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scenes behind the curtain that no one
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really wants to explain is that
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taxpayers are absorbing the loss I'll
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let you be the judge on that and
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obviously you can call your elected
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representatives to make your opinion
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heard now going backward I I wrote an
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article in December of 2020 so it's a
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pretty old article now and it's called
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curses Miracles and the best interest
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student loan solution cuz you know again
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student loans uh and student loan debt
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it comes in and out it weaves in and out
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of the public discourse at various
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different times and I was thinking to
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myself on the one hand we have people
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saying forgive the entire thing and on
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the other hand we have people saying no
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no you borrowed the money it is your
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responsibility and you got to pay it off
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I found that the public discourse was a
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bit binary right it was one or the other
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status quo is this haunting curse that
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kind of looms over a lot of my peers
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young adults Millennials but then again
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the proposed solution was this kind of
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divine Miracle right government coming
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down and and forgiving the entire thing
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and I thought why not try to find
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something in between so my idea whether
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it's good or bad I'm sure it has holes
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in it but my idea is that I think people
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should repay the principle that they
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borrow but if need be we could have
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Smart incentivized Systems to lend a
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helping hand with paying back the
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interest and I think this proposal it
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checks all the good boxes I think the
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math works it tiptoes this tenuous line
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of personal responsibility and morality
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that that some people would bring up uh
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I think the government would be equipped
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to enact such a program so I ask you to
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consider this proposal if you feel like
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biting my head off again you can uh
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submit those complaints to Jesse ATB
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bestin interest. blog so before we talk
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about the college loan solution let's go
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back to one of my favorite places that
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I've talked about many times here on the
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podcast including I think last episodes
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let's go back to the adarand every year
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thousands of people descend upon the
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beautiful adarand mountains seeking the
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silence and Solitude and remoteness of
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the mountains unfortunately many of them
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come unprepared uh longdistance hiking
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is not just a walk in the woods it's not
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a simple walk in the woods and despite
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the efforts of outdoor Educators hikers
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regularly find themselves in over their
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heads miles out in the woods not enough
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food not enough water no warm clothes no
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survival skills uh it happens all the
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time in the aderan deck like a weekly
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basis you get articles about um search
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and rescue that happens up there now if
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these hikers were student debtors I
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think some people would say screw them
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you chose that hike you're out there
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it's on you we all got to die somehow
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deal with it and I think other people
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might say oh my gosh someone stuck out
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in the woods all hands on deck all
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points bulletin yank out all the stops
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we have to save that person by any means
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necessary but okay how does our society
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actually react in those situations well
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in reality a small team of New York
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Department of Environmental Conservation
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Rangers they hike out to the people in
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trouble they give them Aid if needed and
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then they tell these troubled hikers tie
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up your boots again we're walking out of
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here we're not going to carry you on a
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gurnie unless you're truly injured and
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we're going to give you a ticket for
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being unprepared it's certainly not full
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forgiveness for getting yourselves in
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this trouble but it's legitimate aid for
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someone who found themselves in over
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their heads I think that's a pretty
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interesting example and we'll keep that
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in mind now there is a bit of a moral
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hazard of forgiving loans and I think
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people you know whether it's people on
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the left whether it's Democrats liberals
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people who kind of skew that direction
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they might fall in line with the this
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kind of sweeping student loan
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forgiveness for example Alexandria
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Ocasio Cortez supported the student debt
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cancellation Act of 2019 which would
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forgive outstanding Federal and private
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student loans of all previous and
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current students in our education system
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we would forgive all again we already
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talked about this 92% are owned by the
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government 8% are private and this act
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would have canceled all of them or would
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have forgiven all of them essentially
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meaning again that the taxpayer would
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take on the entire debt and Bernie
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Sanders supported a similar program
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which would cancel all student loan debt
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for some 45 million Americans who at
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that time owed about $1.6 trillion in
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debt and then it would place a cap on
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student loan interest rates going
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forward at
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1.88% which at the time was above what
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typical interest rates were right 1.88%
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at the time you could probably only get
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0. 25.5% in a high yield Savings bank so
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that interest rate maybe made sense at
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that time but many Americans many people
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find or found uh significant problems
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with those proposals and for what it's
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worth I don't blame those people at all
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I get it there's a missing sense of I
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don't know if Justice is the right word
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but there's a missing sense of
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responsibility or Justice in in the full
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forgiveness proposal for example number
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one it would reneg on a clear agreement
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if I borrow $20 from you we both expect
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that I will pay you back number two it
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would provide more benefits to people
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who made ostensibly worse choices right
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if you borrow $200,000 to attend Harvard
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my first question would be does it make
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more sense to just borrow $100,000 and
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attend a state school instead if you
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forgive everybody student loans I mean
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you are essentially providing more
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benefits to people who made essensially
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worse choices number three everything
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about the college attendance process was
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voluntary right we all chose to attend
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the colleges we went to or not we chose
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our Majors uh we chose our future career
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prospects in that way so does it make
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sense for the taxpayer to bail people
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people out who find themselves in
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student debt number four if we're going
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to forgive student loan debt why not
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bail out credit card debt why not bail
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out Automotive debt let's pay everyone's
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mortgage too if student debtors are
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receiving trillions of dollars of debt
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relief why aren't other debtors as well
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number five who exactly becomes
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responsible for the cost of school
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itself if everything's forgiven will
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students care will colleges care what
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the cost is right it's free essentially
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now College becomes free universities
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won't care for the same reasons why they
00:13:59
don't care much right now that is that
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their customers the students have easy
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access to free money so who becomes
00:14:06
responsible for the cost of college
00:14:08
itself well the taxpayer the government
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does in that case and the number six
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which is related to number five about
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the rising cost of school baby boomers
00:14:17
don't fully understand their the crisis
00:14:19
right now because their four-year
00:14:21
education cost well like less than a
00:14:24
sixpack of beer right College costs have
00:14:25
rocketed through the poorly maintained
00:14:28
fraternity roof and now it's raining on
00:14:30
the pong table and if you go back and at
00:14:33
this time this is just a chart that I'd
00:14:34
found that looked at 1978 through 2015
00:14:38
so what's that about 37 years and the
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cost of college has gone up about
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250% which isn't even close to anything
00:14:47
else when it comes to like inflationary
00:14:49
costs in fact some things like new
00:14:51
vehicles food apparel have actually
00:14:54
decreased in overall inflation adjusted
00:14:56
pricing so do I believe wholeheartedly
00:14:59
in those six arguments I just outlined
00:15:00
not necessarily I I understand all six
00:15:03
arguments though right I can easily see
00:15:05
why other people believe in those
00:15:06
arguments there is a moral hazard which
00:15:09
is a good economics term if you're not
00:15:10
familiar there's a moral hazard
00:15:12
associated with full forgiveness in
00:15:14
economics moral hazard specifically
00:15:16
refers to the lack of accountability or
00:15:18
the lack of balance between risk and
00:15:21
consequence we can also think about
00:15:23
moral hazard in terms of traditional
00:15:25
morality namely if you borrow money you
00:15:27
should pay it back actions have
00:15:29
consequences and circumventing that in
00:15:31
some way feels a little bit amoral but
00:15:33
then again right and this is where I I
00:15:35
see both sides there's a moral hazard of
00:15:38
letting people drown so having described
00:15:40
the moral hazard of full forgiveness let
00:15:42
me draw another Line in the Sand
00:15:44
allowing the student loan crisis to
00:15:46
continue unabated is more hazardous than
00:15:49
full forgiveness and yes I I use the
00:15:52
word drowning I know maybe it's a bit
00:15:53
dramatic because previously I I
00:15:55
mentioned some legitimate gripes about
00:15:57
forgiveness and now I'm using this
00:15:59
flowery emotive language to Pander to
00:16:01
your emotions drowning well yeah debt
00:16:04
truly is a life and death issue for some
00:16:07
people it might not be deadly today and
00:16:09
it might not be deadly for every person
00:16:10
but there's clear data measuring the
00:16:12
negative effects of debt on
00:16:14
psychological and physical health and
00:16:16
when multiplied across millions of
00:16:18
people uh who are struggling with
00:16:20
student loan debt there's no doubt about
00:16:22
it that this is a important issue that
00:16:25
truly impacts people's lives we can
00:16:27
consult some surveys here granted
00:16:28
surveys aren't necessarily the same as
00:16:30
period reviewed data according to a
00:16:32
survey of readers from student loan
00:16:34
planner mental health issues and student
00:16:37
loan debt are clearly linked for example
00:16:39
the survey concluded that 53% of high
00:16:42
debt student loan borrowers have
00:16:44
experienced depression because of their
00:16:45
debt that nine in 10 borrowers
00:16:47
experienced significant anxiety due to
00:16:50
their loan burden and that one in 15
00:16:52
student loan borrowers surveyed have
00:16:54
considered suicide due to their student
00:16:55
loans now that's millions of people
00:16:57
right millions of people millions of
00:16:58
lives these are our fellow citizens and
00:17:00
they could use a little bit of help and
00:17:03
here's an interesting one that many of
00:17:04
you might know right these people can't
00:17:06
utilize bankruptcy student loans are one
00:17:09
of the very very few types of debt that
00:17:11
are not forgiven by bankruptcy so we're
00:17:14
we're chaining these people to a cinder
00:17:16
block and telling them that they can't
00:17:17
cut the chain it's like you know that
00:17:19
Phil Collins song well if you told me
00:17:21
you were drowning I would not lend a
00:17:23
hand
00:17:24
well me you were drowning
00:17:29
I not a Phil Collins might not lend a
00:17:33
hand but I think Phil's probably wrong
00:17:35
and writing this article I went back and
00:17:37
thought to myself how do you explain
00:17:38
$100,000 of loans to a 17-year-old so
00:17:42
here's one way to do it you're sitting
00:17:43
down with a 17-year-old they're right in
00:17:45
front of you and you say hey dude think
00:17:47
back to the time when you were in
00:17:48
kindergarten can you picture that yep
00:17:50
that's 12 years ago when when Timmy
00:17:52
spilled milk on your head okay now think
00:17:54
about every single month from that time
00:17:56
when you were in kindergarten until
00:17:58
right now when you're junior or senior
00:17:59
in high school and imagine for that
00:18:02
every month that you've been paying
00:18:04
$11,200 to a loan serer okay got it can
00:18:07
you imagine that that's what $100,000 of
00:18:09
loans is like well I can answer this
00:18:12
hypothetical for the nation's
00:18:14
17-year-olds who would say no idiot
00:18:17
Jesse I can't imagine that I don't even
00:18:19
remember all my teachers names in school
00:18:22
I can't contemplate I can't perceive the
00:18:24
idea of paying $1,200 a month which is
00:18:27
more money than I've ever earned in any
00:18:29
sort of summer job I can't imagine
00:18:31
paying that for the last 12 years it
00:18:33
goes back to the the famous Bill Gates
00:18:34
saying that's probably been overstated
00:18:36
we always overestimate the change that
00:18:38
will occur in the next two years and
00:18:39
underestimate the change that will occur
00:18:41
in the next 10 years our brains when
00:18:44
we're that age when we're thinking about
00:18:46
getting student loans when we're 17 or
00:18:47
18 years old our brains are excited for
00:18:50
what well for freshman year at school
00:18:52
for freedom for new friends for
00:18:54
interesting classes our brains are
00:18:56
mildly prepared for the four years of
00:18:58
Ramen dinner that we're about to consume
00:19:01
but our brains are certainly not
00:19:03
considering the 10 or 15 or 20 years of
00:19:06
student loan induced Ramen dinner that
00:19:09
will follow the first four right we're
00:19:10
not even thinking about the fact that
00:19:12
our 20s or 30s might be defined by
00:19:14
student loan repayment all we're
00:19:15
thinking about are the weeks or months
00:19:18
or maybe even a couple years ahead of us
00:19:20
at that time now quick little side note
00:19:22
that I wasn't very familiar with it's
00:19:24
the fact that actually the people who
00:19:25
are typically in the worst positions
00:19:27
when it comes to student loans are
00:19:29
people who never finished College in the
00:19:30
first place now many people feel some
00:19:33
sort of pressure to attend college but
00:19:35
then they find the classwork too
00:19:37
difficult they maybe need to drop out
00:19:38
due to family issues they drop out
00:19:40
because of financial reasons and yes
00:19:42
some people just party too much freshman
00:19:44
year and they drop out too and people
00:19:46
without college degrees have an average
00:19:48
salary that's $32,000 per year lower
00:19:51
than those with college degrees so
00:19:53
College dropouts they still have to
00:19:55
repay the loans that they've taken but
00:19:57
they must do so on significant lower
00:19:59
salaries so do we allow them to drown as
00:20:02
well that's a question we should ask
00:20:03
oursel and the highest default rates
00:20:06
tend to come from student debtors who
00:20:07
went to for-profit universities think
00:20:10
things like the University of Phoenix or
00:20:12
DeVry the kind of universities that are
00:20:15
constantly having commercials on TV so
00:20:18
is it a moral system where we encourage
00:20:20
young adults to pursue their dreams yes
00:20:22
pursue your dreams but we're going to
00:20:23
saddle you with some debt and then we're
00:20:25
going to profit off your struggle now
00:20:28
surely that is some form of moral hazard
00:20:30
as well so now that I've kind of argued
00:20:32
both sides of the argument it brings me
00:20:34
to the best interest student loan
00:20:36
solution I don't want people to drown I
00:20:39
don't want people to die in the woods
00:20:40
but I also want to maintain some
00:20:42
semblance of accountability here so my
00:20:45
solution and I have the power of a of a
00:20:47
calculator so you can see it for
00:20:48
yourself is that we don't forgive
00:20:50
student loan principle but we do help
00:20:52
forgive at least partially student loan
00:20:55
interest so we don't forgive the
00:20:56
principle if I borrow $20 from you I'm
00:20:58
going to pay it back however the
00:21:00
principal the $20 isn't really the
00:21:02
problem with student loans it's the
00:21:04
interest or as I've described it before
00:21:06
on on the blog interests and and debt it
00:21:10
has this silent assassination technique
00:21:12
right interest is really sneaky because
00:21:14
many people are are paying thousands of
00:21:16
dollars per month against their loans
00:21:18
but sometimes quite often less than 10%
00:21:21
of that payment actually goes toward
00:21:23
principal the rest just pays off monthly
00:21:26
acre interest a lot of people don't know
00:21:28
understand that which is also
00:21:29
unfortunate and maybe this podcast can
00:21:31
help educate them on that front it's a
00:21:33
big issue but the student loan solution
00:21:35
that I'm offering here provides them a
00:21:38
way out so we'll look at an example
00:21:40
graduate a person who's earning a
00:21:41
$50,000 salary but they're $100,000 in
00:21:44
debt and we'll say that their debt has a
00:21:46
5% interest rate so you probably know
00:21:48
this kind of person she might be a
00:21:50
teacher or a nurse he might be the the
00:21:52
guy in the office the new guy who's
00:21:54
great at spreadsheets it's a pretty
00:21:55
normal person and it's a pretty normal
00:21:57
kind of situation $50,000 salary against
00:21:59
$100,000 in debt if this person repays
00:22:03
their loans using 10% of their salary
00:22:05
which is $47 per month they will end up
00:22:08
paying a total of
00:22:11
$390,000 over 78 years okay that's
00:22:14
pretty unrealistic okay so let's apply a
00:22:17
bit of my student loan proposal and part
00:22:19
of my idea again we want to incentivize
00:22:22
people to contribute what they can to
00:22:25
paying back their loans so part of my
00:22:27
idea is that the more or someone's
00:22:29
willing to contribute on a monthly basis
00:22:31
and you know we can work through the
00:22:32
details of course maybe it's a
00:22:34
percentage of their salary maybe it's
00:22:35
just a flat dollar amount but the more
00:22:37
that someone contributes the higher a
00:22:40
percentage of Interest the government
00:22:42
will forgive so in this case let's say
00:22:44
our our hypothetical person is paying
00:22:47
10% of their salary and let's say that
00:22:49
they would get 80% of their monthly
00:22:52
interest paid by my Solutions
00:22:55
governmental program again this only the
00:22:56
interest the principal is still on them
00:22:59
but we're helping them pay off their
00:23:00
interest so via the program's interest
00:23:03
assistance this particular loan would
00:23:05
instead be paid off in 22 years using
00:23:09
$111,000 of the debtor's money and
00:23:12
$45,000 from the government now that's a
00:23:14
total difference of of
00:23:16
$233,000 right it's 390,000 of repayment
00:23:20
in the original solution versus
00:23:23
156,000 in in my solution and it saves
00:23:27
56 years where of debt payments off this
00:23:29
person's life now how is this Stark
00:23:32
difference even possible well it's
00:23:34
because interest is the silent killer
00:23:36
now even if you disagree with the the
00:23:38
details of this plan totally fine that's
00:23:40
totally fine but I think the truth
00:23:42
remains pretty clear if we if the
00:23:44
government if the taxpayer helps forgive
00:23:46
interest payments in some form then
00:23:49
principal repayment becomes much more
00:23:51
attainable and in this particular my
00:23:54
particular student loan proposal the
00:23:55
individual is incentivized to pay more
00:23:57
if they're able so if they contribute
00:23:59
say 12% of their salary which would be
00:24:01
in this case $500 a month then maybe the
00:24:04
government covers all of their interest
00:24:05
payments and that particular loan would
00:24:08
be repaid in 17 years using $100,000
00:24:11
from the individual and $41,000 from the
00:24:13
government now both the individual well
00:24:16
the individual saves money compared to
00:24:18
the you're out on your own in the
00:24:20
wilderness plan that we currently have
00:24:22
the current solution but the government
00:24:24
saves money especially compared to this
00:24:26
whole idea of complete forgiveness
00:24:29
now I do think it's worth understanding
00:24:30
who wins who loses well I know at least
00:24:33
I think I know from the point of view of
00:24:35
who who loses it's a zero sum game now
00:24:37
before Johnny was paying $150,000 to a
00:24:41
loan serer and now Johnny is paying
00:24:44
$100,000 to the loan serer the
00:24:46
government is paying $20,000 to the loan
00:24:49
serer that the taxpayer but because the
00:24:51
loan has been paid off early the
00:24:54
remaining $30,000 that would have gone
00:24:56
to the loan serer in the future never
00:24:58
goes to the loan serer so you could say
00:25:01
that the loan serer is out future income
00:25:04
but essentially all we're doing here is
00:25:06
just reducing the repayment period of
00:25:08
the loan servicer whoever that is
00:25:10
whether it's the government holding the
00:25:11
debt or whether it's a private entity
00:25:13
they're still getting all their
00:25:15
principal back and they're still
00:25:17
collecting the correct amount of
00:25:18
Interest over the period of the loan if
00:25:20
it's a 5% loan they're still receiving
00:25:23
all 5% for the number of years that the
00:25:25
loan exists all we're really doing is
00:25:27
just cutting cutting off the term of the
00:25:29
loan by increasing the rate at which the
00:25:31
loan is repaid and yes in that way I
00:25:33
suppose we are messing with free
00:25:35
enterprise and it might affect Loan
00:25:37
servicers in some way but that's the
00:25:40
nature of government programs I suppose
00:25:42
right this isn't truly a Laz Fair
00:25:44
economics free enterprise system that we
00:25:46
live in anyway it's also not a socialist
00:25:49
system in which we aren't allowed the
00:25:51
free movement of capital it's something
00:25:53
in between and I think this program this
00:25:55
proposal again is something in between
00:25:58
so feel free I I know listeners out
00:26:00
there are all over the political
00:26:02
Spectrum you come here mainly to learn
00:26:04
about personal finance and investing not
00:26:06
necessarily to learn about deep uh
00:26:09
socioeconomic issues like student loans
00:26:11
so I'm I'm an open book when it comes to
00:26:13
what you guys think of this idea here's
00:26:16
a quick ad and then we'll get back to
00:26:17
the show every week I send a quick free
00:26:20
email to thousands of readers that
00:26:21
shares three Simple Things One my new
00:26:24
articles and podcasts two the best
00:26:27
financial cont content of the week from
00:26:29
all over the Internet and three a
00:26:31
financial chart that explains some
00:26:33
important Concept in the news that week
00:26:36
it's a great primer to boost your
00:26:38
financial knowhow ah but Jesse I don't
00:26:40
want another email well this might not
00:26:43
be for you but I do hear you which is
00:26:45
why I make it very short sweet and full
00:26:47
of only the essentials a whopping 66% of
00:26:51
subscribers read my email at least once
00:26:53
a month they're enjoying it and maybe
00:26:55
you will too you can subscribe for free
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on the homepage at bestter interest.
00:27:00
blog again that's a free no strings
00:27:02
attached subscription at bestin
00:27:04
interest. blog but with that I think
00:27:07
it's high time to bring Katie Gotti
00:27:09
tosson onto the podcast Katie is the
00:27:12
founder of money with Katie whose
00:27:14
mission is to be the intersection where
00:27:16
the economic cultural and political meet
00:27:19
the Tactical practical personal finance
00:27:22
education everyone needs money with
00:27:24
Katie was founded in 2020 as a space for
00:27:27
Katie to document everything she was
00:27:28
learning about Personal Finance on her
00:27:30
journey to financial Independence and as
00:27:33
she watched her net worth grow in tandem
00:27:35
with her financial literacy she realized
00:27:38
just how valuable this information was
00:27:40
and sharing it with others became her
00:27:42
Obsession Katie left her full-time job
00:27:44
at the end of 2021 to devote all her
00:27:46
energy to building money with Katie
00:27:49
which was acquired by morning Brew in
00:27:51
2022 and today Katie runs the money with
00:27:54
ktie brand as part of a team of three
00:27:57
and they are rapidly growing so I'm very
00:27:59
excited to introduce to you Katie Gotti
00:28:02
[Music]
00:28:06
tosson Katie thank you for joining the
00:28:09
best interest podcast today and from my
00:28:11
perspective as a reader and at times as
00:28:13
a listener Katie I think I'd categorize
00:28:16
your content as this witty and and
00:28:18
perceptive takes that go beyond you know
00:28:21
the nuts and bolts of personal finance
00:28:22
and maybe focuses more on these broader
00:28:25
socioeconomic topics but topics that
00:28:27
certainly do affect our individual lives
00:28:30
for example you tend to say things like
00:28:32
well we live in a society that does
00:28:33
things this particular way and and why
00:28:36
is that and is that a good thing for us
00:28:38
or not so I thought we'd start with an
00:28:39
interesting topic that we actually
00:28:41
covered here on episode 79 with Phil
00:28:43
Pearlman and that's the intersection of
00:28:45
wealth and health so Katie what is the
00:28:48
news that makes money feel worthless yes
00:28:52
well Jesse thanks for having me I really
00:28:54
appreciate that the news that makes
00:28:55
money feel worthless I wrote a piece
00:28:58
about this because I was in an Urgent
00:29:01
Care a couple weeks ago I have kind of
00:29:04
The Chronic Millennial woman stomach
00:29:07
issues where my stomach always hurts and
00:29:10
started to kind of manifest in this new
00:29:12
and exciting way and I was like I should
00:29:13
probably go get this checked out so I
00:29:15
drove down the street to the Urgent Care
00:29:17
I had selected my New York Magazine that
00:29:20
I just come in the mail as my reading
00:29:22
material to be like I'll probably be
00:29:24
waiting for a little bit so let me bring
00:29:25
something to read not realizing that I
00:29:28
had actually picked up the health issue
00:29:30
of this magazine and basically all of
00:29:33
the stories in the magazine that issue
00:29:36
were about people who went to the doctor
00:29:39
saying I'm not feeling well the doctor
00:29:42
was like ah it's fine you need to eat
00:29:44
more fiber uh it's no problem it's just
00:29:46
your hormones and then bada bing bada
00:29:49
boom what do you know oh actually I have
00:29:51
cancer and now it's stage three and I'm
00:29:52
screwed and so I'm sitting in this
00:29:54
waiting room reading these stories about
00:29:57
to go tell a doctor like hey I have this
00:30:00
issue and I started to reflect on how my
00:30:05
material and how other personal finance
00:30:07
material and all of these little hacks
00:30:09
and optimizations and incremental
00:30:12
improvements must feel to somebody that
00:30:16
has just been told they have a stage
00:30:18
three diagnosis I was like wow I can't
00:30:22
imagine reading my silly little
00:30:24
newsletter about capitalism while I am
00:30:27
literally fighting for my life and I was
00:30:30
reflecting on that while at the same
00:30:32
time answering questions to this billing
00:30:36
department about my insurance and I'm
00:30:38
like but interestingly enough finding
00:30:41
out you're sick is both the news that
00:30:44
makes money feel worthless and the news
00:30:47
that makes money now basically the most
00:30:50
important tool that you have to get
00:30:52
healthy again what do we typically do
00:30:54
with that information if you are a
00:30:56
rational actor in a human body you're
00:30:59
going to go well I will spend as much
00:31:02
money as I need to keep my life I will
00:31:04
blow the life savings if it means I get
00:31:06
to keep my life right and that was a
00:31:08
dichotomy that I was playing with and
00:31:10
interested in and it kind of culminated
00:31:13
in the piece and like yeah this is why
00:31:15
Healthcare doesn't work as a Marketplace
00:31:17
because a market only functions if the
00:31:20
consumer has a rational alternative if
00:31:23
they can walk away you can't walk away
00:31:26
if your life is on the line no rational
00:31:28
person is going to make that choice you
00:31:30
are going to do whatever you need to do
00:31:32
so the incentives are all screwed up so
00:31:34
it was kind of a a little reflection
00:31:37
based on an experience that I was having
00:31:39
I have since gotten a $600 bill for a 45
00:31:42
minute office visit you know how that
00:31:44
goes oh always always yeah and you know
00:31:47
it was kind of a quintessential to your
00:31:49
point about the way that I like to
00:31:51
approach these topics it was also like
00:31:52
yeah and hey by the way the fact that we
00:31:55
have a HealthCare Marketplace and not a
00:31:56
system is ridiculous and like let's
00:32:00
point out all the reasons that this is
00:32:03
ridiculous yeah Healthcare frustrates
00:32:06
the you know what out of me uh for no
00:32:07
other reason than exactly what you just
00:32:10
pointed out you have a little thing
00:32:11
that's nagging you a little pain you're
00:32:13
a little more sick that's comfortable
00:32:15
you go in you do what you're quote
00:32:16
unquote supposed to do go see a doctor
00:32:19
and maybe you have Platinum Insurance
00:32:22
where the the premium is probably
00:32:23
multiple thousands of dollars a month
00:32:24
but if you don't have that Platinum
00:32:26
Insurance maybe you have a high
00:32:27
deductible Health Plan well that's a
00:32:29
multi office visit out of pocket which
00:32:33
nine times out of 10 they say you know
00:32:34
what yeah it's just a little bit of the
00:32:36
flu and uh want me to drink some more
00:32:38
fluids and here's a script for you and
00:32:40
it just doesn't quite feel I mean it's
00:32:41
just very expensive and I've certainly
00:32:43
had sometimes where I'll sit there at
00:32:45
home and go well am I sick enough to pay
00:32:48
$500 right exactly that's not a fun
00:32:51
that's not a that's a calculus anyone
00:32:53
wants to be making yeah exactly I think
00:32:56
what I learned this time with that bill
00:32:58
I have a high deductible plan and as I'm
00:33:01
sure your listeners know from a
00:33:02
financial perspective that actually
00:33:04
almost always is going to make more
00:33:05
sense unless the deductible is like
00:33:07
outrageous but I max out the HSA right
00:33:10
I'm in a high marginal tax bracket so I
00:33:12
get some good tax savings there it's
00:33:14
invested all the best best practices
00:33:17
have been followed but the issue that
00:33:19
I'm running into and that I ran into in
00:33:20
this particular instance because I've
00:33:22
now been to four appointments for this
00:33:24
issue with one of the appointments that
00:33:25
they charged me 64 $ for I call them cuz
00:33:30
I see that my insurance only knocked off
00:33:32
81 bucks and I'm like hey trying to
00:33:34
negotiate right I'm like employing all
00:33:36
my little tips and tricks for okay I
00:33:38
know the Medicare reimbursement rate I
00:33:39
looked at the CPT code I'm going to try
00:33:41
to haggle with you to get this down I go
00:33:44
I'm willing to pay 350 today they go
00:33:47
well you have Anthem and our contract
00:33:50
with Anthem says that we are allowed to
00:33:52
charge you $564 for this appointment I
00:33:55
said cool then I don't want to use
00:33:56
Anthem let's do cash pay what's cash pay
00:33:59
they go oh it's 46% off okay quick
00:34:02
calculation that's 350 bucks I'm like
00:34:04
cool I all do cash pay they go you can't
00:34:06
you have Anthem so we have to charge you
00:34:08
that and I'm like the fact that having
00:34:11
Insurance makes it more expensive to you
00:34:14
out of pocket than not having Insurance
00:34:16
the price signal is broken the fact that
00:34:20
Anthem can collude with the healthcare
00:34:23
provider and so those are the types of
00:34:25
things that yes it is helpful to know
00:34:27
how the system works you can navigate it
00:34:29
a little more Savvy if you understand
00:34:32
those nuances you can at the outset say
00:34:34
what's your cash pay rate and they're
00:34:36
going to go do you have insurance and
00:34:37
you say I asked what the cash pay rate
00:34:39
is I'm not answering that question yet
00:34:42
because I need to assess this but even
00:34:45
knowing that information is not the
00:34:46
perfect solve because if they tell you
00:34:48
oh it's 350 you're probably going to go
00:34:50
oh there's no way insurance is going to
00:34:52
make it cost more than that but it can
00:34:54
and it's that lack of
00:34:56
transparency that is the connection
00:34:58
between the lack of transparency in a
00:35:01
system like that and how it necessarily
00:35:04
is going to have Downstream impacts on
00:35:07
you as the consumer and it's going to
00:35:09
impact your personal finances yes it
00:35:11
behooves you to understand it but it
00:35:13
also behooves you to realize that like
00:35:16
that is absurd and that is only that way
00:35:20
because there are laws that say they can
00:35:22
do that but laws can change and if
00:35:24
enough people know that oh my health
00:35:28
insurance is the one that's deciding how
00:35:30
much this thing can charge me and I
00:35:32
would actually have a cheaper path if I
00:35:34
didn't have insurance at all if enough
00:35:36
people can realize that well now we
00:35:38
actually have a chance at fixing some of
00:35:40
that stuff and people going you know
00:35:41
what hey we don't like this like we
00:35:43
should be able to choose yeah I can have
00:35:45
my private health insurance but I should
00:35:46
be able to choose if I want to pay out
00:35:47
of pocket what the sticker price is and
00:35:50
what it cost to go through insurance so
00:35:52
now I'm really on a tangent this was
00:35:54
Jesse you should have known better than
00:35:56
bringing up the Healthcare System with
00:35:58
me but I think it's just like it's the
00:36:00
perfect example of individual choices
00:36:02
and the systemic reality coming together
00:36:05
to create a more complex and more
00:36:07
nuanced picture than like here's how a
00:36:10
deductible works I totally relate Katie
00:36:13
you you you aren't going on tangents we
00:36:14
like tangents here actually we we like a
00:36:16
good tangent I don't know if I've told
00:36:18
this story on mic with the podcast
00:36:20
audience or not but so we had our first
00:36:23
baby a baby daughter back in early June
00:36:25
now it's August 23rd thank you thank you
00:36:27
and as a personal finance nerd financial
00:36:30
planner I'm like okay we're going to get
00:36:31
our ducks in a row and figure out what
00:36:34
this is going to cost child birth is not
00:36:36
cheap hospitals charge a pretty high
00:36:38
amount for it and and what if it's a
00:36:40
C-section and what's our all these kind
00:36:42
of questions are floating around in my
00:36:43
mind and so I say you know we're going
00:36:45
to call we're going to figure this out
00:36:46
well ahead of time so I reach out to
00:36:48
First the insurance provider because I
00:36:50
figure that's the good place to start
00:36:51
and I ask those kind of Common Sense
00:36:53
questions what is this going to cost me
00:36:55
how much is going to be out of pocket
00:36:56
are there any monsters lurking behind in
00:36:59
the shadows behind the curtain of the
00:37:00
hospital room that I need to be aware of
00:37:02
and their answer is pretty simple they
00:37:03
say you know what that's a great
00:37:04
question you need to reach out to the
00:37:06
hospital do you know where you're
00:37:06
delivering so I go yeah I do know where
00:37:09
I'm delivering okay I'll reach out to
00:37:10
the hospital well the hospital says
00:37:11
Jesse great questions make sure you
00:37:13
reach out to your insurance provider I
00:37:15
said I just did that and literally it's
00:37:17
the Spider-Man meme of they're pointing
00:37:18
at each other and I'm the Lan consumer
00:37:21
in the middle and ultimately what I
00:37:23
ended up doing was downloading a
00:37:25
spreadsheet of CPT codes a specific
00:37:28
spreadsheet that's put out by the
00:37:30
hospital that says here are the CPT
00:37:32
codes and here's what the payouts pay
00:37:34
ratios whatever the terminology is for
00:37:36
all the various insurance providers
00:37:38
locally so I find the CPT code for
00:37:40
childbirth I find my insurance provider
00:37:43
and then I start to get a picture of oh
00:37:45
okay this is what they would charge me
00:37:47
this is what the insurance provider
00:37:48
would cover and therefore this is how
00:37:50
much is coming out of pocket it was a
00:37:52
few hours of work right some annoying
00:37:53
phone calls and I just sat there and
00:37:56
thought to myself I mean how many
00:37:57
individual consumers are willing to do
00:38:00
that are going to do that it's such a
00:38:02
frustrating process and you have these
00:38:05
legitimately billion dollar
00:38:06
organizations on either side and here I
00:38:09
am the lone consumer just one guy with a
00:38:12
pregnant wife it's like what are you
00:38:14
going to do you're going to be like oh
00:38:16
well I'm G to actually not go to the
00:38:18
hospital then it's like you don't have a
00:38:20
choice you literally don't have a choice
00:38:23
they have you on the ropes the fact that
00:38:25
you were even able to I've done the same
00:38:28
thing with like downloading the CPT code
00:38:29
spreadsheet I know exactly what you're
00:38:31
talking about but the fact that you were
00:38:33
able to even associate those CPT codes
00:38:35
with prices and rates I think it's
00:38:36
actually a law that they do have to
00:38:39
publish the rates but the fine for not
00:38:42
publishing them is like $500 a day so
00:38:46
the vast majority of these hospitals
00:38:48
that make billions of dollars a year are
00:38:50
just like all right we'll just pay the
00:38:51
fine we're not going to publish our
00:38:53
rates that does nothing to help us okay
00:38:55
ready for a tangent there's a great
00:38:57
story in the book Freakonomics if if if
00:39:00
you've read it or if any listeners have
00:39:01
read it uh and it has to do with an
00:39:03
Israeli daycare center that had a
00:39:05
problem of chronic late pickups yes I
00:39:08
remember this yes and so it's it's
00:39:10
annoying right you have workers you have
00:39:12
employees they want to go home at a
00:39:13
reasonable time but they can't because
00:39:15
the kids are still here because the
00:39:16
parents are coming in on time so they
00:39:18
said you know what we're putting our
00:39:19
foot down every time you're late to pick
00:39:21
up your kids we're going to find you I
00:39:23
don't know what the Israeli currency is
00:39:25
shame on me $10 we'll say and the
00:39:27
delinquency rate went up because parents
00:39:30
said oh 10 bucks just to come and pick
00:39:33
that's great that's a luxury I'll pay
00:39:35
that all day and it just go right when
00:39:37
you have perverse incentives if the fine
00:39:39
isn't harsh enough yeah well they're
00:39:40
just G to say great I'll just pay the
00:39:42
fine and continue on business as usual
00:39:45
here's a quick ad and then we'll get
00:39:46
back to the show one of the more common
00:39:49
questions I hear is Jesse what do you
00:39:51
like and use books blogs podcasts even
00:39:54
Banks and brokerage firms what are your
00:39:56
recommendations
00:39:57
so to answer that question I put
00:39:59
together a web page you can check it out
00:40:02
at bestin interest. blog
00:40:05
reccommendations again that's bestin
00:40:07
interest. blog reccommendations to check
00:40:10
out how I'm improving my financial life
00:40:13
all right let's switch gears a little
00:40:15
bit about some other things that we're
00:40:16
concerned about this isn't a specific
00:40:18
question at all Katie do you at all
00:40:20
worry that your savings and Investments
00:40:22
these things that we talk about and here
00:40:24
we are young we want compound interest
00:40:26
to work on our side are you worried that
00:40:28
all this time and effort and saving and
00:40:30
sacrifice that you're doing today will
00:40:32
simply get passed down to some future
00:40:34
nephew or stepson who's just going to
00:40:37
spend it all chasing 70-year-old then
00:40:39
Taylor Swift touring around the country
00:40:41
or I guess put another way how do we
00:40:43
balance the the constant reminders to sa
00:40:45
for our future with the current reality
00:40:47
that life is passing Us by absolutely I
00:40:51
worry about that the balance and the
00:40:53
reason I think this is difficult
00:40:55
particularly when you are in educator is
00:40:58
that you almost always are going to have
00:41:01
two very different types of people that
00:41:04
are listening to you some of those
00:41:06
people that are listening to you are
00:41:08
Savers they're obsessed with personal
00:41:10
finance they got 60% save rates already
00:41:13
they're trying to eek out a couple more
00:41:14
percentage points they're into the hacks
00:41:16
baby they want to know how to get as
00:41:18
rich as possible that group does not
00:41:20
need to be told to save more money right
00:41:23
they need to be told hey go touch grass
00:41:25
go on a vacation spend some of your
00:41:27
money the other group that's listening
00:41:29
to you are people who cannot hold on to
00:41:32
a dollar who have a either a compulsive
00:41:35
relationship with spending or just have
00:41:37
never been taught how to manage money
00:41:39
and so they are struggling right they
00:41:41
need to be told this is how much you can
00:41:43
save this is how you do it here's how
00:41:45
you can optimize so the problem that I
00:41:47
run into as a publisher of this type of
00:41:49
material is I'm trying to balance
00:41:52
between how do I talk to both of those
00:41:54
groups and deliver the information that
00:41:56
they need to hear perfect example of
00:41:58
this we just did an episode about money
00:42:01
dysmorphia which is essentially it's a
00:42:03
it borrows from the phrase body
00:42:05
dysmorphia which is where your
00:42:07
perception and reality are not matching
00:42:09
up and so typically with finances this
00:42:12
manifests in one of two ways you're
00:42:14
killing it you're crushing it but you
00:42:17
never feel like you're doing enough you
00:42:19
always feel like you should be doing a
00:42:20
little bit more you always got that kind
00:42:22
of chip on your shoulder that that
00:42:24
concern the monkey on your back of like
00:42:26
I don't know is it going to be enough
00:42:27
and so you're constantly on your back
00:42:29
foot operating from this position of
00:42:30
scarcity and to your point you're
00:42:32
forgetting that life is passing you by
00:42:34
right now or you are avoidant with money
00:42:38
and you are not attached in any
00:42:41
meaningful sense to your financial
00:42:42
reality that you can't afford to go to
00:42:45
yacht week because you have a $500 to
00:42:49
your name and the credit card is maxed
00:42:51
out but you're avoidant right you've got
00:42:53
your head in the sand you don't want to
00:42:55
look at it you for whatever reason
00:42:57
believe that everything is going to be
00:42:58
okay even though there is nothing about
00:43:00
your reality that would be indicating to
00:43:01
you that you should be feeling that way
00:43:03
well when I put out a call for questions
00:43:04
I said hey tell me if you feel like you
00:43:07
have money dysmorphia here's what it is
00:43:08
here are some different ways it can
00:43:09
manifest email me and let me know 137
00:43:13
people emailed me and about 125 of them
00:43:17
it was the former it was I never feel
00:43:19
like I'm doing enough hey I'm 28 and I
00:43:21
have a paid off house and half a million
00:43:23
dollars in Investments am I going to be
00:43:24
okay I still feel like I should be
00:43:26
saving it was that type of person right
00:43:29
only like 10 people of this hundred and
00:43:31
something submission were like yeah I
00:43:33
don't know I just can't stop spending
00:43:35
and like for whatever reason I'm just
00:43:36
not worried about it but someone after
00:43:39
the fact so we do the episode with that
00:43:41
larger audience in mind hey guys you
00:43:43
know chances are you're actually doing
00:43:45
quite a bit you're listening to this
00:43:46
show which tells me you're probably
00:43:48
thinking about this a lot but someone
00:43:50
reached out and was like that episode
00:43:51
really missed the mark for me I it made
00:43:53
me feel really really insufficient
00:43:56
because like I'm living paycheck to
00:43:57
paycheck on $160,000 a year I can't
00:44:00
figure it out like I've love your show
00:44:02
but sometimes I feel like I just need
00:44:03
the basics I need you to give me the
00:44:05
tough love and tell me that I need to
00:44:07
save money it's just the nature of the
00:44:11
game right totally and I think for me
00:44:13
personally I definitely skew more the
00:44:15
former camp and that's why thinkers like
00:44:17
R Sati have been so impactful thinkers
00:44:19
like Bill Perkins people who remind you
00:44:23
that your life has to be lived now and
00:44:26
there are experiences that you can have
00:44:28
now that you cannot have when you're 60
00:44:31
years old so if you are thinking that
00:44:33
you are going to defer all of your
00:44:35
enjoyment of life into the future you
00:44:37
need to think really hard about the bet
00:44:40
that you're making and what you are
00:44:41
giving up in the present moment to do
00:44:43
that you mentioned Taylor Swift one of
00:44:46
the things that I did this past summer
00:44:48
was I spent $10,000 taking myself and
00:44:51
three of my friends to Paris to the ARs
00:44:54
tour and I paid for all of it it was the
00:44:57
best money that I have ever spent and it
00:45:01
was such an incredible experience I am
00:45:04
so happy that I am in a position to be
00:45:06
able to do that and I want to hold
00:45:09
myself to doing things like that every
00:45:11
single year 10 grand I mean in some ways
00:45:14
that's a lot of money in other ways for
00:45:16
like a once- in a-lifetime experience
00:45:19
that is a decision I would make 8 days a
00:45:21
week that is a a thing that I'm going to
00:45:23
remember for the rest of my life and I
00:45:25
think that Perkins is idea concept of
00:45:28
memory dividends is so valuable in that
00:45:31
way because it puts it in terms that
00:45:33
Finance people can understand it's like
00:45:35
oh yeah the earlier I do this the more
00:45:38
of my life I'm going to be able to spend
00:45:40
looking back on that and being like wow
00:45:42
what an incredible experience trying to
00:45:45
unpack and understand what things you
00:45:46
can spend money on that are going to
00:45:48
really give you that high Roi
00:45:51
emotionally is an introspective Journey
00:45:55
but that's something that three years
00:45:57
ago when I was so deep in the fire
00:45:59
mentality I never in a million years
00:46:01
would have taken other people on a trip
00:46:03
I feel so lucky that I've been able to
00:46:06
go on this journey now not just
00:46:08
financially but psychologically to be
00:46:10
able to do that and feel incredible
00:46:12
about it and I'm like I would have spent
00:46:14
10 times that to have that experience it
00:46:16
was that good I think that that's really
00:46:18
important that that reminder the whole
00:46:21
idea of almost you know I'm thinking of
00:46:23
this this image in my head of literally
00:46:24
like a fir Walker walking through fire I
00:46:27
I went through the same thing Katie and
00:46:28
just when I read whether it's Reddit
00:46:30
when I hear from my readers or listeners
00:46:32
it seems like a kind of common theme
00:46:34
where you discover Financial
00:46:36
Independence you discover this idea of a
00:46:38
savings rate and keeping costs low and I
00:46:40
can retire by what an early age and you
00:46:43
start down this very good path in terms
00:46:44
of improving your personal finance
00:46:46
habits but at some time you kind of
00:46:48
realize like wait so I'm just going to
00:46:49
I'm going to retire early I'm going to
00:46:51
have this big pot of money that I'm
00:46:53
going to sit on but I'm kind of always
00:46:55
going to be a little bit chronically
00:46:56
concerned that that's going to run out
00:46:57
so I'm going to live a relatively meager
00:46:59
Frugal lifestyle yeah and at some point
00:47:01
you realize like is that really what I
00:47:02
want and you have to kind of find some
00:47:04
balance right the pendulum swings back
00:47:06
and forth as you were describing your
00:47:08
audience and that ratio of whatever it
00:47:09
was you know 125 out of 137 emails were
00:47:12
all on the one side where people are
00:47:14
saying I'm constantly worried about
00:47:16
money even though objectively I'm
00:47:17
probably doing all right I I wonder
00:47:19
about that too and I have a feeling that
00:47:22
my audience would probably skew somewhat
00:47:24
similarly and I just wonder if that's
00:47:26
like a selection surv bi you say what
00:47:29
kind of people are going to be out here
00:47:31
listening to our convers right now it's
00:47:33
people who about their own personal
00:47:35
finances enough that they're probably
00:47:37
doing all right and that's why they're
00:47:39
probably here to learn more because
00:47:40
maybe they're worried if they're not
00:47:41
doing enough but it is interesting I I
00:47:43
thought too as you were giving your
00:47:45
answer about the the Dave ramies or like
00:47:47
the Caleb hammers of the world who very
00:47:50
much I feel like serve the other end of
00:47:52
the spectrum where they're quite
00:47:54
deliberately seeking out conversations
00:47:56
with people who can't keep a dollar in
00:47:58
their pocket and whether you approve of
00:48:01
their tough love approach or not at
00:48:04
least there is someone out there who's
00:48:05
directly talking about people who really
00:48:07
do need those kind of square one Basics
00:48:10
nuts and bolts how do I keep more money
00:48:12
in my pocket and what do I do with it so
00:48:13
you know it's all all shapes and sizes
00:48:15
well the Caleb Hammer example is a good
00:48:17
one because I went into his subreddit
00:48:19
once sub about his show cuz I was like I
00:48:22
want to get a Vibe for like who are the
00:48:24
people that are watching this because it
00:48:25
is so aggressive
00:48:27
style it's like a very particular style
00:48:31
I wouldn't go there I think he's playing
00:48:32
a character and there were some posts in
00:48:35
here that are like Caleb saved my life I
00:48:38
was $30,000 in credit card debt and
00:48:41
still taking my family on these luxury
00:48:43
vacations we couldn't afford that tough
00:48:45
love style there is a market for it
00:48:48
there is a place for it it is necessary
00:48:51
there are areas of my life where I need
00:48:53
someone to have tough love with me I
00:48:55
will sit there and eat a bag of twist
00:48:57
if no one stops me but I needed a
00:48:59
nutritionist to be like stop doing that
00:49:02
you need fiber idiot you need protein
00:49:05
I'm going to teach you how to eat and
00:49:06
then you're going to track it in this
00:49:08
app and I'm going to watch what you're
00:49:09
eating and we are going to work on this
00:49:11
together I needed someone to hold my
00:49:14
hand and kind of force the issue so that
00:49:18
I could see how much better it feels to
00:49:20
have enough protein and water and fiber
00:49:22
intake to go oh yeah wait this rocks
00:49:24
like I'm going to eat like this all the
00:49:26
time I'm going to put down the bag of
00:49:27
Twizzlers but for some people spending
00:49:30
is the bag of Twizzlers and until
00:49:31
someone kind of forces them in to seeing
00:49:34
it differently and how good it feels to
00:49:36
be financially secure it's just people
00:49:38
are wired differently so I completely
00:49:40
agree like I don't love the Dave Ramsey
00:49:44
like methodology around how he runs his
00:49:46
business but from a messaging standpoint
00:49:49
for him KB the more tough love types
00:49:52
like we need that too cuz for every
00:49:55
person that's listening to this who has
00:49:56
they're you know what together there's
00:49:58
someone else that needs someone to kind
00:50:01
of step on them a little bit and help
00:50:02
them get it together and like that's
00:50:04
what they're seeking they want someone
00:50:06
to step on them a little bit because
00:50:07
they feel like they need that push for
00:50:10
you it was Twizzlers for me it's Wheat
00:50:12
Thins and Tostitos whole bag whole bag
00:50:15
it's probably Twizzlers are probably
00:50:16
better I don't know NE neither one's
00:50:17
great but you reminded me there of a
00:50:21
couple of my high school classmates
00:50:22
teammates we had this one basketball
00:50:24
coach thankfully only for a year here
00:50:27
who was such a dick I know you you just
00:50:30
prevented yourself from swearing which I
00:50:31
appreciate I don't mind saying dick this
00:50:33
guy was such a dick and borderline like
00:50:35
physically abusive and Midway through
00:50:37
the season all of us on the B go we all
00:50:39
look at each other we're like we hate
00:50:40
this guy right yeah we hate but then
00:50:42
after the season a few of the players
00:50:43
were like you know what I actually liked
00:50:45
him I liked him because he pushed me in
00:50:47
a way that I I didn't push myself before
00:50:50
maybe they just didn't have a
00:50:51
disciplinarian in their life and they
00:50:53
actually liked a little bit of
00:50:54
discipline and structure and and it made
00:50:56
me realize and especially now maybe with
00:50:57
the benefit of hindsight and a little
00:50:59
more maturity that yeah I mean some
00:51:01
people out there they don't want to be
00:51:03
yelled at or screamed at and but some
00:51:05
people they say you know what if in the
00:51:07
end I'm actually a better person for
00:51:09
being yelled at maybe yell at me it's
00:51:12
it's not me personally and it's it's
00:51:14
probably not your style either it sounds
00:51:15
like but yeah there for some people out
00:51:18
there it obviously hits home those two
00:51:20
individuals we mentioned specifically I
00:51:21
mean they've done pretty interesting
00:51:23
things in this whole personal finance
00:51:25
space thinking of Looking Backward at
00:51:27
life I look at the way that my parents
00:51:29
and grandparents lived and I feel like
00:51:31
I'm not participating enough maybe not
00:51:34
volunteering enough know not running for
00:51:36
the school board not coaching Little
00:51:38
League Boy Scouts what whatever instead
00:51:40
I feel like I'm this atomized individual
00:51:43
and that is stealing some verbiage from
00:51:45
from one of your articles Katie because
00:51:47
as you pointed out it can even extend to
00:51:49
a fear that you're somehow even a burden
00:51:51
in people's lives like you you choose to
00:51:53
kind of pull yourself out of society or
00:51:55
out of communities you're hesitant to
00:51:57
ask your friends or neighbors for a
00:51:59
favor I have a lot of different thoughts
00:52:01
when it comes to this but what exactly
00:52:02
is going on here from your point of view
00:52:04
and and what can we do either
00:52:05
individually or societally to start
00:52:08
working together more asking for simple
00:52:10
favors participating I mean what what's
00:52:12
going on well the way that I thought
00:52:14
about it and the reason that I noticed
00:52:16
it is because I kept seeing strains of
00:52:19
this rhetoric online that we're kind of
00:52:22
taking the concept of boundaries to a
00:52:25
really extreme place like don't ask me
00:52:29
to drive you to the airport don't
00:52:30
inconvenience me in that way like I'll
00:52:32
save a friendship get an Uber to LAX
00:52:35
that type of language same thing with
00:52:37
like a lot of that therapy speak that
00:52:39
got really popular during the pandemic
00:52:42
where it was like here is a copypaste
00:52:45
paragraph that you can send to your
00:52:46
friend if they're dumping on you in a
00:52:48
time when you don't have the capacity
00:52:50
and it's like hey can you maybe schedule
00:52:52
a time to have this breakdown with me it
00:52:54
just I was reflecting on it because we
00:52:56
were going to be going out of town and I
00:52:59
was hiring a sitter to come over and
00:53:01
feed my cat and at the same time my
00:53:06
nextdoor neighbor had come over and was
00:53:08
like hey I I'm bringing you we picked
00:53:10
these peaches from our tree in our back
00:53:11
yard here you go was kind of thinking
00:53:13
about the fact that like when they had
00:53:15
gone out of town they were like hey can
00:53:16
you come over and walk Toby I was like
00:53:18
yeah I'd be happy to do that for you so
00:53:20
we kind of have this very mutually
00:53:22
beneficial relationship where they do
00:53:24
things for us we do things for them
00:53:27
and I was like oh there's actually a
00:53:28
really interesting Financial angle here
00:53:31
and if I'm being a little bit tinfoil
00:53:33
hat about it it would make sense that in
00:53:36
a highly individualized capitalist
00:53:39
Society it would be beneficial to the
00:53:41
people in power if everybody is super
00:53:43
atomized from one another because that
00:53:45
means you have to pay for everything you
00:53:46
need you have to pay for all the food
00:53:49
you need you have to pay for every ride
00:53:52
you need you have to pay for someone to
00:53:55
come over and help you mount a
00:53:56
television you have to pay for someone
00:53:57
to come over and watch your pets if
00:54:00
you're not getting anything that you
00:54:02
need from the fabric of your community
00:54:05
the only thing that is left is to Shell
00:54:07
out money to meet those needs and I just
00:54:11
thought it was really interesting to
00:54:13
think about that type of boundary
00:54:15
setting and this idea of being a burden
00:54:17
and this idea of inconveniencing others
00:54:20
thought it was interesting to think
00:54:21
about it from a financial perspective in
00:54:23
that way and ultimately what I decided
00:54:25
was the relationship that I have with
00:54:27
that neighbor it feels really good I
00:54:30
really like to do things for them it
00:54:32
does it's not a burden to me I like to
00:54:34
be needed you know I like to help them
00:54:37
and I think they like to help us too and
00:54:39
so the fact that it ends up saving both
00:54:41
of us money that we're able to kind of
00:54:43
be there for one another is obviously an
00:54:46
ADD and bonus but it reveals this
00:54:48
reality that when we're afraid to burden
00:54:51
others what we're really doing is
00:54:52
robbing ourselves and them of building
00:54:55
meaning Community friendship is not
00:54:58
about convenience like friendship is
00:55:00
about being there for one another even
00:55:02
when it is not convenient for you but to
00:55:07
willingly atomize yourself to
00:55:09
voluntarily atomize yourself is to
00:55:11
deprive yourself of that chance to build
00:55:14
community and in that way it's very
00:55:17
shortsighted because you're also not
00:55:19
being there for other people when that's
00:55:21
kind of your Mo and when that's the
00:55:23
collective Mo and what was really cool
00:55:25
about that piece is I heard from some
00:55:27
people that live in neighborhoods where
00:55:29
they have a very very tight-knit
00:55:31
Community a lot of these neighborhoods
00:55:33
are people who lived somewhere during Co
00:55:36
so during the the lockdown stage of Co I
00:55:39
should say and during the lockdown stage
00:55:42
they would have they called them gappy
00:55:44
hours which were happy hours but in
00:55:46
their front yard six feet apart so they
00:55:48
would be like sitting in these chairs
00:55:50
social distanced and that through that
00:55:53
period they developed relationships with
00:55:55
one another
00:55:56
now they help out with each other's kids
00:55:58
they make each other food they lend each
00:56:01
other tools they help with house
00:56:02
projects and like it has created these
00:56:05
vibrant little communities in these
00:56:08
neighborhoods that they never would have
00:56:10
gotten had they not been willing to ask
00:56:12
and receive and I think it's just that
00:56:15
Humanity of asking and receiving that we
00:56:17
give up when we financialized every
00:56:20
single transaction of everything that we
00:56:21
need so not to you know drop the comma
00:56:25
quote joke but like we really do exist
00:56:27
exist in the context we live in a
00:56:29
society there is no escaping that and we
00:56:32
shouldn't want to escape it I think is
00:56:34
the point and so it's like you shouldn't
00:56:35
see yourself as a burden for needing
00:56:37
help needing help is very human so is
00:56:39
helping others you remind me of the
00:56:41
principle of reciprocity if someone does
00:56:43
something nice for me I'm kind of
00:56:44
hardwired because we're social animals
00:56:46
that that is kind of the fabric of
00:56:48
community and Society is this natural
00:56:50
reciprocity that we all feel of looking
00:56:52
out for one another and and even to
00:56:54
hearken back to like it sounds kind of
00:56:56
CLE cliche but what's it you know it
00:56:57
takes a village to raise a child like
00:56:59
that kind of thing and it's like well if
00:57:00
I don't know anybody in my neighborhood
00:57:03
like is it taking a village to raise a
00:57:05
child or is it all up to me or I mean
00:57:07
again takes a lot of money to raise a
00:57:09
kid right money has to fill in the Cs or
00:57:12
just like child care itself is this
00:57:14
thing where daycare is so godforsaken
00:57:18
expensive that I I think to myself like
00:57:20
okay you and I both know the stats and
00:57:22
we know what the median salary is and
00:57:25
what certain people are earning and it's
00:57:26
like how do people below a certain
00:57:28
income level have children and continue
00:57:30
to work and the answer for some of them
00:57:33
is that the family is their community at
00:57:35
the very least where it's like oh well
00:57:37
Grandma she's not doing anything she's
00:57:39
going to watch the kids while I go work
00:57:41
and that I think probably used to be a
00:57:43
little bit more commonplace maybe or or
00:57:45
maybe there was just a little bit more
00:57:46
trust in society and you had latch key
00:57:48
scenarios or whatever it may be where
00:57:50
it's like you know what that the
00:57:51
community will take care of the children
00:57:52
enough such that they can be trusted on
00:57:55
their own but for whatever reason I
00:57:57
don't know enough about it I'm not a
00:57:58
sociologist or Anthropologist or
00:58:00
anything like that but there is this
00:58:02
atomization that seems to be going on or
00:58:04
I I certainly feel it in my life and I I
00:58:07
wonder if I should be participating more
00:58:09
but last last one I want to throw a
00:58:11
quote at you Katie it's a really cool
00:58:13
quote that you wrote or or maybe that
00:58:15
that one of your friends spoke to you
00:58:17
and then and then you put it down and
00:58:18
the quote is I kept struggling to decide
00:58:21
whether to film it or just to be present
00:58:24
and enjoy it and that quote has has to
00:58:26
do with what filming a live show a music
00:58:28
a concert something like that and
00:58:30
referring to your friend's desire to to
00:58:32
film the show and then to share it on
00:58:34
social media and now I more or less
00:58:36
abandoned social media certainly I cut
00:58:38
down my use by you know 95% or whatever
00:58:41
a couple years ago but I did so I think
00:58:43
at my own Peril because you know
00:58:45
selfishly here any traffic to the best
00:58:47
interest from Instagram or Twitter or
00:58:49
Facebook probably has gone to zero and
00:58:52
there might be a 100 plus content
00:58:55
creators that I used to network with or
00:58:57
be connected with socially on social
00:58:58
media I haven't interacted with them in
00:59:00
years and meanwhile you've used
00:59:02
successfully used social media as a part
00:59:05
of money with Katie's amazing growth and
00:59:07
so I suppose maybe this is a personal
00:59:09
question I don't know how many of the
00:59:10
listeners are going to be interested but
00:59:11
I suppose they're probably all on social
00:59:13
media themselves most of them so do you
00:59:15
feel like you've struck a good balance
00:59:16
between harnessing the good of social
00:59:18
media while avoiding the bad this is
00:59:21
such a funnily timed question because I
00:59:24
was literally just this morning my
00:59:26
friend Caro she's incredible she's a
00:59:29
novelist she just sold her film rights
00:59:32
to an Hathaways production companies
00:59:34
she's she's on the CB up she's a stock
00:59:36
that's on the rise and I bought in early
00:59:40
so but she's like a 100,000 followers on
00:59:43
Tik Tok and she posts these very it's
00:59:45
like uh the think boy she's like a
00:59:47
thought daughter okay she she's the
00:59:50
opposite she's a think girl so she's
00:59:52
always posting this cultural criticism
00:59:54
cultural commentary on Tik Tok she's
00:59:55
accumul ated 100,000 followers doing
00:59:58
this and she recently like in the last
01:00:00
day or two posted this video being like
01:00:03
hey I don't think I'm going to post here
01:00:05
very much anymore because what I don't
01:00:07
like about this platform is that
01:00:10
anonymity in the profiles and anonymity
01:00:13
in the users is really not conducive to
01:00:17
a positive environment for creators so
01:00:22
she kind of sets up this dichotomy the
01:00:24
creators are the people who are creating
01:00:27
the product they are making the thing
01:00:30
that everyone else is consuming and the
01:00:32
vast majority of people on Tik Tok are
01:00:34
just consuming content they are not
01:00:36
producing it but when a platform
01:00:39
culturally however it develops and
01:00:41
whatever the incentives are that like
01:00:43
Instagram anonymity is not as common as
01:00:46
Tik Tok anonymity most people on
01:00:47
Instagram are being themselves right
01:00:50
it's unusual to have like a troll on
01:00:52
Instagram that isn't at least tied to
01:00:53
someone's real account on Tik Tok that's
01:00:56
very prevalent and she was like this
01:00:58
platform basically incentivizes and
01:01:00
allows anonymity at a level that
01:01:02
emboldens people to be really nasty I
01:01:06
think X has this same problem on Twitter
01:01:08
you also have a lot of trolls that are
01:01:12
potentially Bots potentially real people
01:01:14
but they're not people that are putting
01:01:15
their name in face behind what they're
01:01:17
saying so yes on the internet people are
01:01:20
emboldened to be a little bit spicier
01:01:23
but when anonymity is involved it's much
01:01:26
worse so she said you know what I don't
01:01:28
need this I'm not making these I'm out
01:01:30
at least for a couple months I need a
01:01:31
break because I am
01:01:33
exhausted from arguing with people that
01:01:37
I'm not even convinced are real they
01:01:38
might be Russian Bots user
01:01:41
7654321 and she was like it's just not a
01:01:44
good use of my time and I text her about
01:01:46
it I'm like hey is everything okay like
01:01:48
did something specific happen or what
01:01:49
cuz I get it like I've been there I know
01:01:52
that when you put out a video or you put
01:01:54
out a post and it strikes the wrong cord
01:01:58
it blows up your entire day if not your
01:02:01
week because you are Fielding responses
01:02:03
you are monitoring comments you are
01:02:05
going back and forth with people it is a
01:02:07
nightmare and Beyond the time that it
01:02:09
takes to do that monitoring and
01:02:11
responding it psychologically just
01:02:13
railroads you because all you can think
01:02:16
about as humans we are wired for this
01:02:18
right we don't want to be ousted we
01:02:20
don't want to be in the outg group
01:02:21
that's dangerous so if you feel like
01:02:23
everyone online is pissed at you and
01:02:25
taking the wrong way you are not going
01:02:28
to be able to meaningfully think about
01:02:29
anything else until that situation is
01:02:32
resolved and so she tells me like no you
01:02:34
know it just I'm really tired of the
01:02:36
psychological and emotional bandwidth
01:02:38
that this takes and she was like and
01:02:40
honestly I don't need it I'm a novelist
01:02:42
I want to spend my time producing long
01:02:44
form work whether that is writing my
01:02:46
book writing the screenplay or working
01:02:49
on you know we have she and I have a
01:02:50
podcast together that's like a little
01:02:51
substack project or doing our podcast
01:02:54
but she was like I just think my my time
01:02:56
can be so much better spent and I sat
01:02:58
there and I started to think about it
01:02:59
Jesse I was like you know what a lot of
01:03:01
the people whose work that I pay to
01:03:05
consume like if books could kill one of
01:03:08
my favorite podcasts so funny so well
01:03:10
done the author Gia Tolentino who also
01:03:13
writes for the New Yorker Haley n who
01:03:16
writes a substack called Maybe Baby
01:03:17
Hunter Harris who writes a substack
01:03:19
called hung up these are all people who
01:03:21
I pay at least $5 a month to consume
01:03:24
their work not not one of them is on
01:03:26
social media talking into the void right
01:03:29
and I still found them and like them
01:03:32
enough to pay money for it so I'm like I
01:03:34
don't think that this is as much a
01:03:36
necessity as we have all kind of been
01:03:38
told that it is it does facilitate
01:03:41
growth but I think it's so important to
01:03:43
ask at what cost what are you giving up
01:03:46
for that growth and are the people that
01:03:49
are finding you on social media really
01:03:51
going to go be subscribers or listeners
01:03:54
or what have you some of them will be
01:03:57
that number is a lot lower than I think
01:03:58
a lot of us want to believe and so I am
01:04:01
currently in that phase of like what is
01:04:03
social media really giving me and is
01:04:05
there a way that I can relate to it that
01:04:07
is just fun and beneficial how does that
01:04:10
look because I think right now if I were
01:04:12
honest about the ROI I think it takes a
01:04:15
lot more than it gives I feel your pain
01:04:18
as far as what it's like when you get
01:04:20
dunked on right what it's like when you
01:04:21
put something out there and people start
01:04:23
saying something bad about you I know
01:04:25
reddit reddit was always the same thing
01:04:26
for me I still spent a tiny bit of time
01:04:28
on Reddit Twitter obviously was the same
01:04:30
with the anonymity but Reddit is just
01:04:33
you know all just a username and there
01:04:36
were some times when I would share what
01:04:38
in my opinion was extremely useful
01:04:41
article there yeah oh but because it's
01:04:43
self-promotion it gets dunked on and you
01:04:46
know so someone finds a way to make an
01:04:48
argument with it you use I think you
01:04:50
said something about like it railroads
01:04:51
your brain and it totally would I'd be
01:04:53
thinking about it all day I'd come back
01:04:54
to it and see if someone else had dunked
01:04:56
on it see it's so it's so petty I
01:04:59
remember once Jesse I can't remember how
01:05:02
I found this but I saw a post in the
01:05:04
personal finance Reddit that was mine it
01:05:07
was like someone shared my back to a
01:05:08
Roth IRA article and the top comment was
01:05:11
like this is the most obnoxious thing I
01:05:14
have ever read and I remember just being
01:05:17
like well then why don't you write
01:05:18
something better yeah like good for you
01:05:21
you know it's like I think that there's
01:05:23
it's just so easy to critique yeah and
01:05:26
it's much harder to produce totally
01:05:29
totally and so I feel your pain I know I
01:05:31
I had to stop myself I was like I'm not
01:05:32
going to read the rest of this I it's
01:05:33
none of my business what these people
01:05:35
think about my writing style all that I
01:05:36
care about is that I like what I'm
01:05:38
writing and that I'm proud of it and
01:05:41
I'll check the scoreboard right like I'm
01:05:43
the one with the Porsche in the garage
01:05:45
so you can talk your on Reddit and
01:05:47
it's just kind of like at some point you
01:05:49
have to kind of like rope the ego back
01:05:51
in but that is the only way that I have
01:05:54
found that allow ows me to live with it
01:05:57
is like I have to pump myself back up I
01:06:00
have to be like no I'm killing it I'm
01:06:02
doing a great job and people are going
01:06:04
to some people are going to hate it and
01:06:05
they're going to take to other platforms
01:06:06
they're going to anonymously troll me
01:06:09
let them who cares talk about me go
01:06:11
ahead but I don't like being that person
01:06:14
you know what I mean like I would much
01:06:15
rather just not have to think about it
01:06:17
at all than to play those psychological
01:06:19
games and to be like yeah but I'm
01:06:21
successful and who knows what these
01:06:23
people are they're they're spending
01:06:24
their time anonymously trolling me on
01:06:25
the internet who cares but like yeah
01:06:28
it's just sometimes I'm like it would
01:06:29
just be easier and better to not even
01:06:31
have to spend any mental bandwidth
01:06:33
playing that game or pumping myself back
01:06:36
up what if I wasn't getting torn down in
01:06:38
the first place wouldn't that be better
01:06:40
like I don't know I'm still negotiating
01:06:41
my relationship with social media I
01:06:43
don't really use it in a personal way in
01:06:45
any meaningful sense like I post so
01:06:47
little on my personal account and at
01:06:49
this point it is kind of a scarcity
01:06:51
mindset thing where I'm like well if I'm
01:06:53
not there what's going to happen but I
01:06:54
do think that it is ultimately better to
01:06:56
spend the time and energy on the things
01:06:59
that move the needle in a real way
01:07:01
putting out amazing podcast episodes
01:07:03
that people are going to find Value in
01:07:05
putting out really thoughtful essays
01:07:07
that are going to make people think
01:07:08
differently about things that is so much
01:07:10
more it's such such a more valuable use
01:07:12
of our time than putting out a video
01:07:15
that people are going to take the wrong
01:07:16
way and then sitting there for eight
01:07:17
hours and like stressing out over the
01:07:19
comments it's like H it's just stupid
01:07:21
but it's it's hard it's really hard to
01:07:23
disengage because these platforms are
01:07:24
designed a designed to hook us
01:07:27
psychologically and make us feel as
01:07:29
though if we're not on them that like
01:07:30
we're missing out on something right
01:07:32
right and two they've kind of changed
01:07:34
the way people consume information like
01:07:36
distribution has been fundamentally
01:07:39
Changed by them so I don't know do you
01:07:41
read any Cal Newport uh yeah I'm
01:07:43
familiar with Cal Newport yeah I don't
01:07:45
think he's on social media at all he's
01:07:46
pretty A-list and he's incredibly
01:07:49
successful and I think that that's like
01:07:50
a I love looking at anytime I can point
01:07:53
examples like that and like it is
01:07:54
possible it possible to do this without
01:07:56
social media it is totally totally and
01:07:58
that's I mean I I'll say I feel fomo or
01:08:01
you know scarcity mindset is what you
01:08:03
said about essentially the opportunity
01:08:05
that I've missed from not being on
01:08:07
social media not sharing my stuff as
01:08:08
broadly as I could have been the last
01:08:10
two years but at the same time right I I
01:08:13
see the podcast download stats I see the
01:08:15
newsletter subscriber stats and I like
01:08:16
okay things are working in some
01:08:18
Grassroots fashion which is great and
01:08:20
also as far as communication channels I
01:08:23
mean email has some unique manages in my
01:08:26
opinion and and email is this thing
01:08:28
where well first off people really have
01:08:29
to opt in if they want to be on your
01:08:31
email list they choose to be there they
01:08:34
click to open it every week but then as
01:08:36
far as email communication goes it's I
01:08:38
can't even think of an example where
01:08:40
someone has gone out and dunked on me
01:08:42
via email oneon-one in a private
01:08:45
conversation right it's just a different
01:08:47
kind of it's not a public Arena it's if
01:08:50
their names at all associated with their
01:08:51
email address they're just so maybe the
01:08:54
people who would dunk on me they just
01:08:55
choose not to via email because who does
01:08:57
that yeah and instead all I get are
01:08:59
positive emails and it's kind of nice
01:09:01
it's kind of nice when you see someone
01:09:03
so anyway I've gotten some email dunks
01:09:05
but what's funny is that when I respond
01:09:07
yeah they take it back immediately it's
01:09:09
like oh my God I didn't know I was going
01:09:10
to read this like it's really it's a
01:09:13
really funny Dynamic but you're right
01:09:15
it's the environment is different and I
01:09:17
would say you see your stats right you
01:09:19
see your grassroot growth but you also
01:09:22
what you're probably not thinking about
01:09:24
think about this sanity points you have
01:09:26
gained think about how much time I have
01:09:30
wasted over the last two years stressed
01:09:32
about this that you are not
01:09:34
thinking about it like that is really
01:09:36
valuable and at the end of the day when
01:09:37
it comes down to it like I think that's
01:09:39
kind of the to wind it all back to the
01:09:42
conversation we were having about saving
01:09:44
enough not saving enough you know money
01:09:45
money money money money we're probably
01:09:47
both wired to optimize for money right
01:09:49
and so we're probably both wired
01:09:50
optimized for growth but when I think
01:09:52
about it I'm like I have enough money I
01:09:54
don't need more money okay so I grow a
01:09:56
little bit slower okay but am I sane
01:10:00
perfect that is an amazing tradeoff like
01:10:02
I am happy to make that trade-off and I
01:10:05
think that that's like I I have been
01:10:06
winding back a lot of what I share like
01:10:08
I used to post twice a day I now post
01:10:11
twice a week if I'm sharing something
01:10:13
that is spicy I just won't read the
01:10:15
comments I'll be like all right fight
01:10:16
amongst yourselves I'm not going to deal
01:10:18
with this like take me the wrong way if
01:10:20
you must but I think that there are ways
01:10:21
to change that relationship and my my
01:10:24
dream world is one in which there's no
01:10:26
no Instagram meta goes down and never
01:10:28
comes back I'd be like amazing I love it
01:10:31
Temptation gone Katie I think after this
01:10:34
conversation some people are going to
01:10:35
reach out and leave you some really nice
01:10:37
comments maybe send you some really nice
01:10:40
emails and or or leave you a really nice
01:10:42
rating on Apple podcast something like
01:10:44
that no dunking listeners not allowed I
01:10:47
won't permit it by the way listeners if
01:10:49
you want to laugh go check out my Apple
01:10:51
podcast and look at the one review that
01:10:53
was a total dunk on me from a couple
01:10:54
years ago it's pretty hilarious it's
01:10:56
still out there it's still out there
01:10:58
it's the one star review that's out
01:10:59
there but the point being Katie people
01:11:01
are want to go listen to more of your
01:11:03
cool thoughts how can they find you so
01:11:06
if you like podcasts I would definitely
01:11:07
recommend checking out our show the
01:11:09
money with Katie show you probably have
01:11:10
a sense for like the vibe of it by now
01:11:13
after listening to me blabber and rant
01:11:14
at Jesse for an hour if you like to read
01:11:17
money withth katy.com is where I publish
01:11:19
my essays and there's also a newsletter
01:11:20
that you can subscribe to there I send
01:11:22
them out on a weekly basis and if you
01:11:25
are an Instagram user I am money with
01:11:27
Katie on Instagram not sharing as much
01:11:30
there but that is a place that I share
01:11:31
more casual thoughts and more short form
01:11:33
stuff so Jesse thank you so much for
01:11:35
having me on it was a pleasure I loved
01:11:37
your questions and it was just so fun to
01:11:38
get to chat with you oh Katie thank you
01:11:41
for being here thank you for stopping by
01:11:43
the best interest
01:11:45
podcast thanks for tuning in to this
01:11:47
episode of the best interest podcast if
01:11:49
you have a question for Jesse to answer
01:11:51
on a future episode send him an email at
01:11:54
Jesse best interest. blog again that's
01:11:57
Jesse at bestter interest. blog did you
01:12:00
enjoy the show subscribe rate and review
01:12:03
the podcast wherever you listen this
01:12:05
helps others find the show and invest in
01:12:08
knowledge themselves and we really
01:12:10
appreciate it we'll catch you on the
01:12:11
next episode of the best interest
01:12:16
podcast the best interest podcast is a
01:12:19
personal podcast meant for education and
01:12:21
entertainment it should not be taken as
01:12:23
Financial advice and is not prescriptive
01:12:25
of your financial situation
