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our guest today is barbara khan
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professor of marketing at wharton and
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director of the jh baker retailing
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center
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she is also chair of the high velocity
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growth summit
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a conference on the retail and consumer
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package goods industries
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that knowledge at wharton is organizing
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in collaboration
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with the bakery tailing center on april
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28th
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and 29th barbara welcome thank you for
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joining us
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happy to be here so we are here to talk
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about your
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research and and one of the papers that
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you have written recently
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uh in collaboration with your colleague
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julio
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cervia is about the notions of a
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product's completeness
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and how they affect perceptions
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preferences and even purchase decisions
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of buyers
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uh what was the question you were trying
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to investigate in this research
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well one of the things that we know is
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that way people decide what to buy and
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what to eat and how much to eat is not
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necessarily based on objective measures
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but it's
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based more on their perceptions of how
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things work
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look etc and one of the big findings in
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the literature before we did our study
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was that product shape and size
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package shape and size affects how much
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people consume
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so there's been previous work that shows
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that holding the size of the
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of a product the same but changing its
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shape can
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influence how much people eat and we
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were interested in
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how whether or not you think the unit is
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complete
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versus an incomplete shape whether or
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not that affects how much you eat
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um so so just to make sure i got it
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right if i were to
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take a bag of cashews and i would eat a
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lot
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of the broken cashews at the bottom of
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the bag would i be right to be
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not feel guilty regardless of how much i
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consume because i think i haven't eaten
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the whole unit
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right yeah so that's the idea so
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whenever you eat a whole thing you think
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like you're
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the the process underlying is when it's
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a whole thing
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you feel like you're eating more um even
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if the amount is the same as a broken
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piece so if you ate a whole pretzel
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you'd be aware that you ate a whole
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pretzel whereas you ate a whole bunch of
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pieces
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you're not aware of how much quantity
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you're eating
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one of the things i found fascinating in
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your research is
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how do you exactly decide whether a
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product is complete or not
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well that is the interesting thing and
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we do show that you can manipulate what
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the expectation is
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and change people's behavior so for
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example we did a study in
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in this research where we had rolls or
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we had cheese
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and and the roll was incomplete because
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there was a hole in it and the cheese
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was incomplete because there were holes
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in the cheese
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and so it wasn't a solid piece of bread
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or a solid piece of cheese when we just
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called it a roll or
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cheese then people thought the ones with
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the hole in it were less complete and
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they did what i said they tended to
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consume more of the holy bread
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on the other hand if we set the
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expectation that it was a bagel or that
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it was swiss cheese
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and then their thought a whole bagel has
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a hole in it
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that reversed the findings how did you
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go about conducting your research
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well we did a lot of the research online
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with you know assume
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if this was what it looked like you know
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how much do you think you'd eat
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how much do you think you pay for it but
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we did run what i thought was really
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interesting and help validate the
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research we ran a field study
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and in that field study we did it we did
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it down in miami and it was for a class
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of people who were going for a health
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mba course and interestingly they were
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physicians and health
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professionals so they were senior
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sophisticated people who understand
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health
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and we had a condition where we had two
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classes
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and they either ate lunch in class room
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a or classroom b
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and what they had for lunch were
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sandwiches that were either cut in half
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or they were whole now we held constant
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in each one of these the amount of bread
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the amount of meat the amount of
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everything and and we also just counted
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how many sandwiches they ended up eating
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we were careful so that a normal portion
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size would be more than one
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because there's also some kind of bias
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called the unitary bias
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where you might just take one of
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something so these were small sandwiches
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and so people would naturally take more
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than one
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and what we found is when we held
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everything constant but we cut the
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sandwich in half
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versus the sandwich was a whole people
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ate more sandwiches when they were cut
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in half and mind you these were doctors
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and health professionals that were
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liable to fall for this bias as well
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interesting
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and what would you say were some of the
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main takeaways of your research
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the main takeaway i mean there's public
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policy takeaways and then there's
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marketing takeaways
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basically we add to this growing
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literature and there are others who
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found these kinds of things another big
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finding that people found
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is primary dimension and and that's um
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what people do is they focus on the
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primary dimension of the product
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and they do insufficient adjustment for
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the secondary dimension
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so if something has a long primary
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dimension and a small secondary
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dimension
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but it's the same size as something that
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had a little bit smaller primary
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dimension
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and a bigger secondary dimension so they
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were holding these things constant
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they overweight the primary dimension so
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that's similar to ours where they
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overweight the completeness
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and basically what it shows is that
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people are not normative decision makers
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they don't eat what they think they eat
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need to eat to feel
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full they eat what they perceive is the
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right amount and they use these implicit
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rules
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for deciding how much to eat so it
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suggests
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that people these things can um backfire
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boomerang we call it so for example
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there's other research
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not mine but it's related where they
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show sometimes if people eat in a
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hundred calorie pack or something like
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that
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they can end up eating more because
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their perceptions of how much they ate
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or something is based on the package
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or the shape of the product not how full
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they feel
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got it now
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based on what you said so far i guess
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the food industry in the beverage
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industry
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is is probably uh uh
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the most interested or or most uh would
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be most affected by the findings of your
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research
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are there any other industries that that
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also
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would uh where consumer preference would
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be affected by
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portions of completeness it's hard for
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me to think offhand but
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theoretically certainly it should be
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what's what we find is it affects
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choice and more importantly probably
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is that it affects consumption and what
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the difference is is choice tends to be
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a more
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mindful we call system two thinking kind
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of decision
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whereas consumption is more of a
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mindless kind of decision
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and so these things that are subtle and
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perception changes
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tend to affect the consumption decision
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and that tends to be more true in food
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you know
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a lot like when you buy clothing you
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know
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it's more of a conscious decision what
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you're buying um
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but it's anything that has some kind of
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mindless consumption pattern
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you'd find that these things would hold
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let's now to some of
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turn to some of your other research in
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other areas
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uh you you were just telling me about uh
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a new research
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uh paper you have done on uh on on
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online and offline
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uh uh perceptions uh could you explain a
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little bit about what was the
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issue you were trying to uh investigate
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there yeah so what we're
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we're what i'm generally interested in
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is this there's kind of a cottage
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industry of research that looks at this
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is well now we have online assortments
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and it's true also in category killers
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and offline
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we can have a lot of variety and there's
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a lot of research that's shown that
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there's such a thing as too much variety
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if you go into an assortment and there's
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so much going on there
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that you can't take it all in some
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research will show that people will
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choose not to choose
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because they're just overwhelmed by all
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the choices
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and so what i'm interested in is how i
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think choice is good though i think that
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what differentiates some retailers
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online and offline is to offer a wide
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variety of choices
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so what i'm interested in is how can we
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get consumers to pay attention
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to the variety so that it's not
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overwhelming and they can take it in
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and i've done several studies along that
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and the metric that i'm really
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interested or the measure that i'm
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really interested in is attention
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and we can now measure that because of
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eye tracking
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we have eye tracking we have an eye
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tracking lab here at wharton where we
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can put people in front of computers
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and see exactly what they're looking at
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we can also give people
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goggles and have them walk up and down a
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a real store and see what they're
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looking at
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so we can see how we can make changes on
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the shelf
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and how that affects their attention
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patterns similarly if you're buying
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online
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i can you know put the storefront or
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whatever on a computer
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and i can see how you're scanning that
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computer screen
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so some of the things that i've done one
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of the things i did and when we do
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experiments what i want to do is hold
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everything constant
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so i can say i know for sure this is
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what happened
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and so one of the things that we looked
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at is how do people pay attention
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differentially
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to an assortment if it's depicted
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visually
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or if it's depicted by words holding
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everything constant so that makes it a
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little less realistic but i can
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then make these generalizations and what
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were some of your main findings here
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so with the visual what we found is if i
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gave people a choice would you like to
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see the assortment
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shown visually or described by words
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overwhelming majority would prefer it
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visually and we tried all sorts of ways
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to try to get them not to prefer visual
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because i wanted to find a boundary
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condition
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so like you'd assume for something
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that's a very aesthetic category visual
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of course you'd rather see
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but what about a category like mutual
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funds if i could show it
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visually people would prefer to see
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mutual funds visually
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so it's kind of surprising how strong
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the preference was
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for visual depiction what we found was
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when the assortment was
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depicted visually versus verbally people
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perceived there was more variety
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in general that was the main effect and
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you can kind of understand why that was
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because
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you can take in more of the attributes
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at once you can see the interactions
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better
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whereas when it's verbal it's kind of
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piecemeal the way you process it
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so you tend to see more variety when
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it's visual versus
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verbal and people prefer it's
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emotionally nicer they like variety
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they prefer to see it in visual versus
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verbal
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and when the assortment is manageable
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visual is preferable
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because it's you know they like it
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better you can take all the variety in
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it's nice
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when the assortment gets really large
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what we found with the eye tracking
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is that people can't take in all that
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variety visually
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and what they tend to do when we know
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this from eye tracking
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is they tend to like kind of glaze over
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and look haphazardly randomly over the
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visual assortment
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and as a result of that they miss
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certain items
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and it becomes more complex and they're
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more willing
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to not make a choice on the other hand
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if the assortment's really large
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and i depict it verbally they may not
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like it as much but the only way they
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can take in that information
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is to spend a little bit more time and
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they tend to look a little more
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systematically
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so the net result of that is they take
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in more variety and they're more willing
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to make a choice
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that's fascinating so two follow-up
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questions on that
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first what do you think would be the
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implications for say a company like
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amazon which is though
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now calls itself the world's biggest
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retailer right
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and has an immense variety of products
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all depicted online what what would how
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would your research be relevant to a
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region of that
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so amazon sells anything so anything
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that's depicted online would be relevant
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i i haven't done research specifically
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with amazon but i have looked at some
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results like
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with campbell soup and with other
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packaged goods and it would be the same
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thing with anything
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is what we found is when people like
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what happens was say campbell soup
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you go to your favorite soup chicken
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noodle and you buy chicken noodle
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now campbell's has lots of variety what
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they want you to do is appreciate all
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that variety
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if what we found with goggles is if they
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look at just the pictures people glance
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over and they don't take in
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all the variety when we can get them to
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look at the labels the names
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they read it and then they see there's
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chicken noodles chicken stars
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chicken whatever but you have to you can
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can you picture what i'm saying like
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you'll just glaze it with you're looking
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at the picture but if you're reading
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you'll so like that's what we know with
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packaged goods i talk to a sports
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retailer i forget which one
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but they told me like with athletic
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clothes people buy black they buy black
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all the time
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but if you just had black on the shelf
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people wouldn't see all the different
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shapes and sizes you have
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so what some of the retailers do and you
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can imagine this online also
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is they insert like pink and orange not
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because they think people are going to
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buy that but because it gives them
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something to pay attention to
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and then you appreciate the different
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variety that's there so what you've got
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to do is get people to stop
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and pay attention to certain things or
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else they kind of glaze over
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i was also wondering how your research
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would relate to
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a company like walmart uh which again a
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huge retailer
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but it's not unlike sports goods it's
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it's a wide variety of products
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how how would they be how could they use
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your findings well i mean so i'm just
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looking at visual versus verbal and i'm
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looking
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at an attention getter when there's a
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wide variety of stopping to read and
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things
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but you can imagine doing more and more
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research on this and with these goggles
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you can watch people walk
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so what we know is if you're in a big
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store like a walmart with all this
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variety everywhere
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it kind of looks like this mountain of
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product and what you see is maybe what's
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on the end dial or under the for sale
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sign or something
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and so what you want to understand is
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how can we set up a store
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so that people take in all the variety
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that's there
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especially when you have your inventory
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out there on a shelf
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i was thinking about just recently i
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went downtown there's a store downtown
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that used to have ann klein which was
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clothing it now is stewart whitespin
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which is shoes
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the same exact physical space but the
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space is used differently in ann klein
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they keep all the inventory out
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right so all the dress sizes all the
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blouses all the different things they're
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out
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there's no back room really but if you
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think about a store
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a shoe store they have just a few shoes
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out
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and all the inventory is hidden in the
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back and so you think about just that
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different configuration of a store
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how much variety you're going to take in
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is really different and i never really
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thought about it until i saw the exact
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same physical space
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used a really different way that's
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fascinating
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and and one one more of your uh
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papers is about the horizontal versus
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vertical
00:14:43
dimensions of uh product uh placement
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can you speak a little bit to that
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research yeah that's
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also we used eye tracking and we had
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some theory on the theory of attention
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and perception
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so to get at that research we first
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stipulate which i think is true that
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there's two stages let's say there's
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more than two but let's start with two
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stages
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to your choice process one stage is when
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you see the whole category you kind of
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scan it quickly
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maybe you're not going to make a
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purchase it's three seconds or so and
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you walk by
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the second is when you plant your feet
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and you're ready to make a choice okay
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now you're spending unlimited time
00:15:18
and so we looked at those two stages and
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under those two stages should you do it
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horizontally or vertically
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horizontally or vertically in the two
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stages so stage one
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three seconds you're just scanning there
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what we found
00:15:30
is because your eyes are horizontal
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um you you can see things that are
00:15:36
horizontally
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more easily we call that higher
00:15:38
perceptual fluency so when things are
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horizontal
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and you're looking very quickly you take
00:15:44
in more variety
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when they're horizontal than vertical
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because it's harder to see vertical
00:15:49
because of the physical
00:15:50
way your your eyes are and so the result
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of that is
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if things are across a horizontal row
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and you're going past it quickly
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whether online or in the store you think
00:16:00
there's more variety you remember
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more variety when it's horizontal than
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when it's vertical
00:16:05
now when you get to the choice that's no
00:16:07
longer the case because i'm spending
00:16:08
enough time to look at it the quickness
00:16:11
or the ease of looking at is not a
00:16:12
relevant thing
00:16:13
but now what happens is there's another
00:16:15
perceptual uh
00:16:17
i don't know if you've ever seen this
00:16:18
but if you take the same line that's
00:16:20
vertical
00:16:21
and you take that same line horizontal
00:16:23
people always think that the vertical is
00:16:25
longer
00:16:26
than the same length line that's
00:16:27
horizontal so
00:16:29
what that perceptual says is that
00:16:31
perceptual bias says is when things are
00:16:33
horizontal
00:16:33
you think they're closer together we
00:16:36
also know when you think things are
00:16:37
closer together you think they're more
00:16:39
similar
00:16:40
so when you're evaluating things if you
00:16:42
don't have clear preferences
00:16:44
the things that are horizontal are seen
00:16:46
as closer together and more equal in
00:16:48
preference
00:16:49
and so you're more likely to say pick
00:16:51
one up
00:16:52
or more of them horizontally when you
00:16:55
see them vertically
00:16:56
they see more further apart there seems
00:16:58
to be an order to it more when it's
00:17:00
horizontal when it's vertical
00:17:02
and so you tend to pick one whereas this
00:17:04
way you tend to pick
00:17:05
more than one and so what we find in
00:17:08
general is things
00:17:09
horizontally you tend to pick more
00:17:12
variety you see more variety quickly and
00:17:14
when you evaluate
00:17:15
you think they're more acceptable
00:17:17
options and when it's vertical you tend
00:17:19
to pick one
00:17:20
and anecdotally i think retailers know
00:17:23
this i've looked at the stores and i've
00:17:24
looked at a lot of convenience stores
00:17:27
what they tend to stack horizontally are
00:17:30
things where you're going to take
00:17:31
more flavors what they tend to stack
00:17:33
vertically is
00:17:34
good better best or best better good you
00:17:37
know kind of like that
00:17:38
and then the notion is you're going to
00:17:39
take one when it's vertical
00:17:41
and when it's horizontal you take more
00:17:43
than one and so what my research has
00:17:45
done is the
00:17:46
retailers have kind of figured it out by
00:17:47
trial and error they don't care why they
00:17:49
just know it works
00:17:50
but what i do back in the lab is to
00:17:52
figure out how you pay attention and
00:17:54
your
00:17:55
resulting perceptions is part of why you
00:17:58
see that effect
00:17:59
because there's no reason that you know
00:18:01
thinking about in advance why something
00:18:03
would be horizontal or vertically
00:18:05
what's really interesting about what you
00:18:06
said is that in addition to retailers
00:18:09
there are also
00:18:10
companies that like netflix you know
00:18:13
that
00:18:13
show thousands of film titles
00:18:16
horizontally
00:18:17
and and different categories of film
00:18:19
types
00:18:20
vertically that that also can have a
00:18:23
tremendous bearing on on
00:18:25
what you just said yeah you see and like
00:18:26
it could be the other way around
00:18:28
but over time they figured out it worked
00:18:30
this way and i'm just saying yes that's
00:18:32
right
00:18:32
because you tend to pick more than one
00:18:34
in a particular category
00:18:36
and you choose one or another category
00:18:38
see that's that's exactly the same thing
00:18:40
and what i think is so interesting
00:18:42
is retailers frequently they're too busy
00:18:44
they just want to know what's worked
00:18:45
they do a b
00:18:46
testing or this ad works better than
00:18:48
that ad and they don't know why
00:18:50
and so a lot of times it's very
00:18:51
reassuring to see the results that i
00:18:53
find in the lab
00:18:54
validated by real world stuff and what i
00:18:57
can add to them is i know why that's
00:18:59
working that way
00:19:00
and it's important because when you're
00:19:02
going into new types of retail
00:19:04
so you're going into shopping online or
00:19:06
these omni channel things
00:19:08
you want to know is what worked offline
00:19:10
going to work online
00:19:11
if you understand why it worked offline
00:19:13
then you can make the adjustment more
00:19:15
appropriately to these new formats
00:19:18
so we've talked about three of your
00:19:20
really
00:19:21
interesting research papers any uh
00:19:24
future research
00:19:25
projects that you're working on that
00:19:27
that based on some of the findings of
00:19:29
these research papers
00:19:30
yeah i'm really am interested in how the
00:19:33
process
00:19:33
goes you know now in this new omni
00:19:36
channel world
00:19:37
so what's happening now is we know
00:19:39
there's stages to the purchase process
00:19:40
you know you have an idea you want to
00:19:42
fill something you about
00:19:43
you know you search for information you
00:19:45
evaluate the options you make a choice
00:19:47
you use the product
00:19:48
so there's all these different stages in
00:19:50
traditional research
00:19:52
you did a i mean retailing and
00:19:54
traditional retailing
00:19:55
you made the decisions in store and then
00:19:57
you took them home so there was in-store
00:19:58
and there was at home that was it
00:20:00
but now it's a 24-7 world you might look
00:20:03
on your phone for one you might look on
00:20:05
the computer
00:20:06
for something else you might go into the
00:20:07
physical store for something else
00:20:09
so you have all these different stages
00:20:11
that can be in all different channels
00:20:13
and i'm curious to know how separating
00:20:15
the
00:20:16
stages by channel by time affects
00:20:19
decision making so i'm working on a
00:20:21
project
00:20:22
and we started with warby parker as an
00:20:24
example warby parker the eyeglass
00:20:25
retailer started by four wharton
00:20:27
students
00:20:28
um what you do in warby park they've
00:20:30
changed it now because they've opened
00:20:32
real
00:20:32
stores but originally you made the
00:20:34
decision online you looked at this big
00:20:36
assortment
00:20:37
you waited a couple days and you got
00:20:40
five pairs to try on at home
00:20:42
so what i was interested in was that
00:20:44
separation
00:20:46
between making your decision online
00:20:49
having to wait a couple days to get the
00:20:51
physical glasses
00:20:52
how did that time between the two stages
00:20:55
affect your decision making
00:20:56
so we're in the process of doing that
00:20:58
research now and we're finding counter
00:21:01
to what people might
00:21:02
think the delay between the two stages
00:21:04
may not be bad it may be a good thing
00:21:07
well perhaps the high growth velocity
00:21:09
conference
00:21:10
where warby parker is going to be one of
00:21:12
the participants
00:21:13
might be a good way to continue this
00:21:15
conversation further barbara thank you
00:21:17
so much
00:21:18
for joining us today thank you
00:21:43
you
