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[Music]
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[Music]
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Dr Manu shandera so nice to have you
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here at the wton school thank you it's a
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pleasure so there is a lot of talk right
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now about Africa and uh all the ripe
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opportunities on the continent and I
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wanted to ask you uh as one of Africa's
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foremost Business Leaders how does the
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rest of the world participate in
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Africa's growth today well right now I
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think that the people who really want to
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make a difference and want to really
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make
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imprints they are going to Africa
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without asking specifically the
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China and after looking at China the
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India the Asia the
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Indonesians even the
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Koreans they're all coming very fast and
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they want to make an impression there uh
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the question is that Africa is growing
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at least this out of the
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10 topmost
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investment destination today six of them
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are in Africa this e Eastern Africa it's
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Kenya it's Angola it's South Africa it's
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Nigeria and in Tunisia uh and there are
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many more so I think that there is a
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huge potential right now that
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everybody's rushing because I think
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Africa is now providing a stable
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political climate ever before and number
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two that almost all the developing
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developed countries are now finding it
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extremely difficult in growth now Africa
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is going to grow probably at
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6% for coming years now yeah I think you
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mentioned a number of very interesting
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in points in your answer I want to
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really uh take one of them I mean if you
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were going to start on the continent
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today which sectors or which country
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would you look at
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first if I got an appetite which is big
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enough I'll go to Nigeria is 140 thou
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140 million people number one number two
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it also supports suring surrounding
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countries which are another 50 million
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so that is almost a quarter of Africa
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that area so I I'd go if I got that
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capacity to really handle that if my
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capacity is small then I'll going to
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East Africa because again East Africa is
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180 million people from Kenya Uganda uh
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Tanzania Burundi Rwanda and now we're
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expecting southern Sudan to join that's
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very good but Are there specific sectors
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that you would look at as you went to
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those countries well uh our sectors
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which we are now doing is the house
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housing and shelter and I think that
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that is ever growing I don't think that
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we will change that for anything else
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right now uh we are not very very sure
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that whether we will go into Electronics
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or software or telephony because that's
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not our speciality our speciality over
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the last uh 70 years or 80 years has
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been built on aluminium and steel and I
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think that there is a great need for
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both of them yeah but let me ask you
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another question so you I think you have
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had the benefit of building a major uh
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conglomerate Out of Africa and having
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invested in other parts of the world in
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India in China in the US in Europe how
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would you compare managing your
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Investments outside of africas to the
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one in Africa because sometime people
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say yes but Africa is tough to do
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business I think you have the
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perspective of being able to compare the
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two what can you tell us no I I think
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the managing businesses in Africa for us
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because we've been there for so many
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years we understand how it how it
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manages and how to manage it uh we find
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that uh specifically in in the last 10
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years because of the downturn in economy
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both United States Canada and Europe uh
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we are finding it that managing
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businesses there are more difficult than
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ever before I think the managing
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businesses in India is very competitive
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to us we are Indians but we still cannot
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manage a very strong and a Sound
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business in India because it's very
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competitive uh to me also managing
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businesses in Australia New Zealand
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China it's easy because they are very
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focused on certain areas as it's
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easier but to me because most of us came
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from Africa and we can understand the
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pulse of Africa to us it's quite easy
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to very good very good but you mentioned
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understanding the pulse of Africa can
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you tell us more about the type of
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mindsets it takes to succeed in business
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in Africa uh first you got to accept
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that it's a third world country it's not
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a first world country if you are
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thinking about the Comforts of the first
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world country it's not there but if you
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want to make sure that two multiplies by
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two becomes four and four multiplied by
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four becomes 16 then that's the area so
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pulse in Africa means uh there are
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speciality in every country there are 60
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countries in Africa a little more than
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that but each one has got a speciality
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and those speciality if you can really
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capitalize on those specialities I think
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that you're making a great can you give
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us an
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example well as for example let's say
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telephony yes uh recently the um the
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company in Airtel from India decided
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that they want to enter in Africa
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they've been thinking about Last 5 Years
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all of a sudden they came back and say
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all right will buy the whole company 16
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African countries they're now in one go
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that's one uh in telepon and also in
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telecommunication China is getting very
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very fast very fast inside um if you
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take the um computers and uh all those
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products or
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ICT uh I think that uh all the Western
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World Korea and the Japan and at the
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same time the United States Europe
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they're all forerunners there so depends
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upon where you're going and which
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particular part you're going if it's
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textile obviously it's not the cup of te
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for for UK for for Europe or for USA
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it's
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Chinese and China sometimes is wondering
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you know today they Supply about 22% of
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the world government
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world and their Ambitions are to go up
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to 33% the think one country 1.2 million
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people providing 1/3 of the governments
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every third government of the world of 7
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billion people that's that's a huge
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potential and I would like to actually
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come back to that point of China I think
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there has been quite a bit of debate
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around China's involvement in Africa and
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and most of the the undertone that you
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hear is rather negative where people say
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oh yes but you know China is trying to
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replace the West in Africa and we don't
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think it's for the benefit of the
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Africans what do you say to that well
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there are two ways of looking at it I
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think that this that the West had for
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last 10
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years has not really push what is known
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as social amenities they push more
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political
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they supported parties and supported
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government and this while these people
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came along and said first thing they
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will do build a stadium second thing
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they'll do build a road third thing they
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will do build a airport fourth thing
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they will do uh build a uh a a a
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hospital you know these are very much
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near to the hearts of the people it's
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not something which funding the
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government and saying this is your
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budget deficit so I think that it his
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own style of doing things
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and they know that they want so much
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more from Africa specifically all the
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oil that they can have it all the um
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other um copper
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aluminum boide anything that you can
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talk of that that can be done it's
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available in Africa and they got just
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they open up and that's that it's take
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it iron
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or and to me that's one part the second
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part is what they are not doing and
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which is very much necessary for them to
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understand that you cannot take the jobs
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of Africans into
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China you know when something is there
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in the ground we're not touched it it's
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not touching us at all if they come and
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take it out it's well and good but when
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there are thousand Africans employed in
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a plant and then they start competing
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with those products over there and
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closes the plant or
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almost on a on a on a on a on last
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minute closer that is stealing the jobs
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of Africans and that's where what you
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are seeing is negative attitude why
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would China want to do that is it that
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China China's own requirement and
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China's own middle class and ultimately
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they will have a uh lower middle class
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they itself own big market so I think
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that they should always trade and see
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that they do not put the feet on on
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little fits there and then get a bad
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name but otherwise I think that as far
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as nobody was digging iron or in Kenya
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if they dig well and good nobody's
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taking Zin from us if they do it well
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and good because it was not done anyway
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yeah yeah no that's a very interesting
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point let me then ask you about some of
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the funds there are major funds like
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Carly like KKR that that are now coming
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into Africa I was seeing somewhere that
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uh the level of fundraising to invest in
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Africa is at a record high how do search
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investors with a lot of capital coming
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from the west and the rest of the world
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partner with African entrepreneurs what
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would you tell them well I think that
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what they should be doing is that the
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they they should first have a a model
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which will work if it's a workable model
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says for example uh there's an
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agriculture project then it'll work in
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some part of Africa they can put all the
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money that they want that there not a
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problem but at the same time they must
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make very sure that African management
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is not replaced they must cultivate a
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better management capabilities if you
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bring everybody from outside and manage
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your project a time will come that
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you're not trans in the know how yeah so
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ultimately I think that all these big
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projects that are coming through will
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probably be you'll find that there will
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be a level at which the local persons
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and
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local intelligenti here will take over
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yeah I think we've talked about all the
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good things that are happening in Africa
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the opportunities but I think you have
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the benefit of perspective I mean you
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have also lived through some of Africa's
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quote unquote darket moment
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for example ID me in Uganda and some of
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the political crisis what would you tell
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people about managing uncertainty and
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risk in Africa well I would if I would
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be my way of doing is to educate more
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people give them a choice make them to
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understand what is good for them right
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now it is not being done quite a bit of
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people are just being all these examples
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of has left a very bitter test and many
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people in says for example Kenya 50
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years Kenyan still
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feels the whole generation which was
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born which was 20 years old and now 70
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year old at the time when the
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independence came they felt my God is
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going to be different after 70 after
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another 50 years of their life that 70
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nothing has changed to them they're very
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bitter and the younger people because
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they have no jobs they're also very
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bitter so I think that to me the best
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thing is just to this kind
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of if the West is not very careful and
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if West does not put the standards of
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governance together with the standard of
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democracy but standard of governance in
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all field whether it's education whether
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it's government government whether it's
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banking whether it's industry that
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governance must be something which must
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be they must start taking the the
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ownership and I think that's the only
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way we can change we have seen a
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mean Uganda used to be number one in
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East African territories Kenya was a
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colony Uganda was protectorate and
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Tanzania was territory and Uganda
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supported all the deficits of both tya
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and Tanzania where they were there today
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after I me
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gone 50,000 60,000 as nations were
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thrown out he went I don't know how many
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meetings pan had it in in in London in
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other places but only few people came
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back now to start something which was
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already there to destroy them and
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restart again it's a long process and
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that's why still they're
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fumbling and and yet not there but this
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should be I think there is a question
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there which is interesting because you
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mentioned something about the need to
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give jobs and the needs to educate I
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think that the business sector has a
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role to play in it as well uh and so and
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and I mean you started the foundation of
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your family Shand Foundation back in
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1953 long time ago I wanted to ask you
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from your experience what can business
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do to be more reconciled with Society
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well I think that if uh if any business
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who is to remain there they must
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remember that there is a a social
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responsibility uh for last few years we
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are pushing very hard the corporate
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social respons responsibility uh in that
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we feel that every person if you get
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something out of this country in terms
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of profits in terms of development in
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terms of growth must also invest
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something in this and specifically
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Education Health I don't think they can
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they can invest in in building roads but
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education they can touch one one life
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they can touch 10 lives they can touch
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100 lives it's necessary for them each
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one of them to take conscious decision
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that yes they are going to be there they
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will be making profits they will be
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building their uh the the setup at the
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same time they will make very sure that
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people who are working and who are not
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working with them they're benefited and
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I think this is most important part but
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how do we make that happen because I
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think you you have that belief and you
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are known to really walk the talk on
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philanthropy
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but you are only one African business
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leader out of many so how do we make it
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happen well let's see let's take for
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example in Kenya uh it was in 56 when my
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53 when I told my father that please
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let's have Chanda Foundation he looked
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at me I said you're are stupid I said
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what have I done wrong why I'm stupid he
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said you lived too long in United States
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I said I've lived three years in United
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States He said listen we're not for we
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are not
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Rockefellers we big hole over here fill
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it up first but I kept on arguing that
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we need a a focal point where the family
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if you're going to create wealth then we
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must have an understanding that this
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wealth is not going to be wasted away
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it's going to be also be responsible and
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the that wealth will support a projects
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and understanding so n56 says okay fine
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set it up
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now in Last 5 Years we had we created
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safaricom with the largest corporation
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safaricom
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Foundation the other Foundation East
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African breweries second largest
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corporation e African breweries
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Foundation kcb Kenya Commercial Bank
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again that a foundation we are now
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pushing as hard as possible that if you
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have a possibility create a foundation
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so that you have a
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compulsion that x amount of money is
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going to come out of your businesses and
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for profit and that you're going to look
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for Avenues where you can make a
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difference and and this is working now
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but it's very difficult now when you to
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ask me how many local
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Africans local Africans not conglomerate
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of a
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company like e brewi is is majority
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owned by probably still half 50% by
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overseas and 50% by local Kenyans but
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there are many billion years in Africa
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today how many of them are doing it
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that's where we go to crack how can we
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give them some kind of an exposure and
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bring them around and make them feel hey
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man you want something now let's become
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somebody in the society they will
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recognize and this a government play
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play a very important role and other
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foundations like our foundations is
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supporting many many people and come
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come along let's Hold Your Hand we'll
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hold your hand but let's go and do
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something good I think it's that doing
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good it's not that easy because it has
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to come
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both from your heart compassion has to
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come from here it's not just writing
00:18:46
checks and getting involved the minute
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you start getting involved I'm sure that
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you then start finding how life is
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difficult for the
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others as long as you are not under
00:18:58
standing that and you just write the
00:19:00
check and said take it away that's not
00:19:03
what we like to do we want to see that
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each one of
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them when I called the E breweries
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managing
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director at a opening up a clinic he's
00:19:14
there he understands and
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sees and he finds that this Clinic has
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no water how can you run a health clinic
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without water okay we'll put money we'll
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create create buildup tanks now we'll
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create a b hole and the water will be
00:19:32
available unless you see for yourself
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the difficulties in which the people
00:19:37
live you cannot you cannot understand
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and that's why many of times you find
00:19:43
that come and do the grassroot work the
00:19:47
minute you do the grassroot work you
00:19:49
don't have to be convinced you'll be
00:19:51
convinced automatically but one of the
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things that have been uh really really
00:19:56
pushing for and really advoca in for is
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entrepreneurship you are one of uh
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Africa most prized
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entrepreneur you've started businesses
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you've closed some of them uh what can
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you tell people that want to be
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entrepreneurs in Africa how do we create
00:20:13
wealth you mentioned that in your answer
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earlier how can they create wealth well
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the first thing is that you
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know first you got to have a fire in the
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belly you want to do do something you
00:20:24
want to become somebody without that
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looking around yes I will I will not no
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it's a risk the first thing is to take a
00:20:35
risk and say yes I am going to go into
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that
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water if I don't take that risk then I
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cannot go I cannot be standing on the
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bystander and just look at and say how
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do is the water is it cold is it warm is
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it hot no you cannot you got to B it and
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many times as I I tell many times youve
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heard me that if you want to go to
00:21:01
heaven you got to die
00:21:04
first and so entrepreneurship is nothing
00:21:07
but taking
00:21:09
risks collecting the risks and failing
00:21:13
if necessary failures always opens up
00:21:16
another
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opportunity that is what you should be
00:21:21
able to do it and take it if you don't
00:21:23
have the stomach for it then you can
00:21:25
just be not being able to do it but
00:21:28
there is a possibility there is a
00:21:30
necessity that people must wake up that
00:21:34
there is a necessity for
00:21:36
entrepreneurship to be in anything it's
00:21:37
not only in
00:21:39
business you're running a County Council
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how can you run the best you're running
00:21:43
a health clinic how can you learn the
00:21:45
best you know that's entrepreneurship is
00:21:48
in every Endeavor or human endeavor that
00:21:52
you can put an entrepreneurship but the
00:21:55
question is that first is to convince
00:21:58
yourself yourself are you want to do it
00:22:01
or not are you prepared to take the risk
00:22:04
are you prepared to go deep in it yes
00:22:07
answers are yes and you'll fail so
00:22:12
what it's not it's not that important
00:22:14
but the minute you fail you then gain
00:22:17
another experience that opens another
00:22:19
door opportunity so I think that there
00:22:22
is a tremendous necessity for people to
00:22:25
become little bit more
00:22:26
daring and say yes but if you just say
00:22:30
oh but you
00:22:31
know it's not safe but you know you
00:22:35
cannot go out but you know but you know
00:22:37
is not the
00:22:40
answer uh I was I was an
00:22:43
engineer and we started producing so
00:22:45
much of goods we could not sell and so
00:22:48
they asked me that why don't you go and
00:22:49
and start
00:22:50
selling to another country so I went to
00:22:53
Uganda I didn't know how to sell
00:22:56
anything and no Goods over
00:22:58
there but what I did was I carried my
00:23:03
brief I went to every shop who could be
00:23:06
my potential customers who were not
00:23:08
buying very much because there was a
00:23:10
competitor who' given small quantities
00:23:13
my quantities to come in large in a in a
00:23:16
big
00:23:16
truck so I'd go and talk to them and
00:23:21
what I read in the newspaper today is a
00:23:23
problem with this children if there's an
00:23:26
income tax problem what's happening in
00:23:28
the world you know in a year I made each
00:23:32
one of them feel that if I I'm there
00:23:36
I'll be the first one to get the
00:23:38
order the minute it happened I opened up
00:23:41
my God down and my competitor for 32
00:23:46
years came on
00:23:48
running
00:23:51
please because oldest fellows were all
00:23:53
fed up
00:23:54
anyway and the contact the human contact
00:23:59
of
00:23:59
winning was the most important part but
00:24:02
it took me six eight or N9 months to
00:24:04
establish myself to say hey man how are
00:24:08
you what's the problem with you our life
00:24:09
is it and all kinds of things but it
00:24:13
created one to one
00:24:17
contact and
00:24:18
that in by the time when I was ready
00:24:22
they're already so I think that there a
00:24:24
question is that how deep individual
00:24:28
want to build
00:24:30
relationships and World depends on
00:24:32
relationships it's one to one
00:24:34
relationship it's one to one country
00:24:36
relationship one to one continent
00:24:38
relationships if I go to Tanzania I'm
00:24:41
like there if I go to Nigeria I'm like
00:24:44
there because they all Now take me as an
00:24:48
investor investor not only interested in
00:24:51
profits alone but a track record of that
00:24:54
yes I'm also seeing that the population
00:24:58
gets something out of me because I've
00:25:01
taken something from you I'm sewing it
00:25:04
back and that's something which is very
00:25:06
interesting there is actually something
00:25:08
that you said which was very interesting
00:25:10
about the ability to really uh deal with
00:25:13
challenges so I wanted to ask you what
00:25:16
is the biggest leadership challenge you
00:25:18
have faced and then how did you deal
00:25:21
with it what did you learn from it you
00:25:23
know I when I was U when my my elder
00:25:27
brother was was managing the
00:25:29
businesses and he said that no now you
00:25:32
see you start spending some time with
00:25:34
me and every time his idea and my idea
00:25:38
were just
00:25:39
conflict will not will not
00:25:42
meet uh so every time there was an
00:25:46
argument so I asked myself what am I
00:25:50
going to do now am I going to win this
00:25:53
man or am I going to fight this man
00:25:58
and I made up my mind I'm going to win
00:26:01
this
00:26:03
man winning means what he said I did it
00:26:07
the way he said I did it but I did
00:26:10
better than what he would do then start
00:26:14
he all of a sudden started realizing my
00:26:16
God he's doing exactly what I wanted him
00:26:18
to do but even
00:26:20
better that day onwards so you go to
00:26:24
First you will meet this kind of crisis
00:26:26
in life that either you decide that yes
00:26:29
you want to sit in the mold which is
00:26:32
already there be inside then break the
00:26:35
mold but if you don't get inside you
00:26:38
don't break I could have just walked
00:26:40
away and said sorry I don't want to be
00:26:43
with you but no I thought that I want to
00:26:46
win unless and until you got that
00:26:49
capacity of challenges you know you
00:26:50
challenge yourself and say Yes I want to
00:26:53
win let me give a simple example in 2003
00:26:56
when the Kenya became uh the new
00:26:59
government after Mo came in one day they
00:27:02
they called a whole meeting of uh
00:27:04
academias and Nos and private sector and
00:27:07
government and they said one day asked
00:27:09
us why don't we make one umbrella body
00:27:14
of all the association commercial
00:27:18
Association so I laughed at him and he
00:27:20
said why are you laughing I said I'm
00:27:22
laughing simply because each Association
00:27:26
there are 200 each Association of
00:27:29
chairman and board of directors whose
00:27:33
ego is bigger than their shoulder now
00:27:36
how do you expect me to put everybody in
00:27:37
one
00:27:38
go he said no Mr Chand you don't
00:27:41
understand our problem we are new in the
00:27:43
government we don't know which is the
00:27:46
right which is wrong the the the the the
00:27:51
Traders wants a the manufacturers wants
00:27:54
B the transporter wants C the
00:27:56
governments want for how can we manage
00:27:59
this unless we know somewhere where we
00:28:01
can get one advice that this is good for
00:28:04
the country and this is what you will
00:28:06
support so next morning again they
00:28:08
called us and we said look then he said
00:28:12
I challenge you Mr
00:28:14
chandaria so I asked my people are we
00:28:18
prepared to take a challenge and
00:28:20
everybody said if you lead yes so we
00:28:23
created then I made the set the
00:28:25
government to if we make create capsa
00:28:28
Kenya private sector
00:28:30
Alliance then on the other side all the
00:28:34
all the doors of the ministers and pses
00:28:37
must be open for us we must come to your
00:28:40
office and we can
00:28:41
discuss it was done but the point is
00:28:44
that unless the challenges are thrown
00:28:46
unless the challenges are taken you
00:28:49
don't make anything you can talk that
00:28:52
doesn't mean you'll make it talk does
00:28:55
not make everything talk is an isue
00:28:58
necessary but after talk action is
00:29:01
necessary and once we delivered that
00:29:03
then it was okay so so any message you
00:29:08
want to basically leave uh potential
00:29:12
investors Africans and Leaders with as
00:29:16
we close this interview look uh my my
00:29:19
only message to them is very simple
00:29:21
Destiny is in your
00:29:24
hand don't expect somebody else to do it
00:29:27
for you
00:29:29
you say Mr X dies and I go to heaven no
00:29:31
it doesn't work Destiny is in your hand
00:29:35
unless you squarely make very sure you
00:29:38
are going to make it and you are going
00:29:40
to be in it and for it it not going to
00:29:45
happen so to my simple to every African
00:29:48
that comes up
00:29:51
yes it's not
00:29:54
color It's
00:29:56
ability to say I won't do it I must do
00:30:01
it first there is a message to myself
00:30:04
and said I must do it I want to do it
00:30:08
you can do it there's nothing that's
00:30:11
not from 40
00:30:13
people we started in when I came back
00:30:16
from school to 40,000
00:30:18
people you cannot even think of it how
00:30:20
can it be done in in 25 years we were in
00:30:23
25 countries how come it all
00:30:26
doable so there's nothing seent about it
00:30:30
that cannot be done but you must believe
00:30:32
in yourself number
00:30:34
one number two you must take risk number
00:30:39
three you must be in it involved you
00:30:43
don't
00:30:44
involve nothing happens and your own
00:30:48
destiny is in your hand please remember
00:30:51
if anybody else pains for your destiny
00:30:55
that will be
00:30:56
totally nor work so we kept on asking
00:31:00
that somebody else does the Destiny for
00:31:02
Africa no it cannot work the Africans
00:31:06
Must Die for themselves to make sure
00:31:09
what they want to create and the
00:31:11
capacity is there we are sitting on
00:31:15
huge huge huge um um
00:31:19
land water uh minerals you name it
00:31:24
what's not
00:31:26
there but you must have that
00:31:28
determination they want to make it and
00:31:31
that determination is the most difficult
00:31:34
one to make once you make it you cross
00:31:38
the
00:31:39
border Dr Manu shandara thank you very
00:31:42
very much thank you thank you for this
00:31:45
opportunity and I I'll appreciate that
00:31:48
because this is a message which I
00:31:50
certainly would like to see that it's
00:31:52
been distributed spread
00:31:54
out Destiny is with us
00:31:58
and we can make it thank you Asanti
00:32:01
thank you
00:32:05
[Music]
