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Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey

October 27, 2022 / 01:23:13

This episode features Dom Harvey and Sir John Kirwan discussing mental health, personal struggles, and the importance of emotional connection. They share experiences with depression, anxiety, and the impact of upbringing on mental well-being.

Sir John Kirwan reflects on his relationship with his parents, particularly his father, who emphasized the value of being remembered for one's character rather than material success. He discusses his battle with clinical depression and the pivotal moment when a teammate saved him from a suicide attempt.

Dom Harvey opens up about his own mental health journey, including challenges with relationships and coping mechanisms. He shares insights on the importance of addressing emotional issues rather than suppressing them.

The conversation highlights the cultural differences in discussing emotions, particularly between New Zealand and other countries, and the need for more open dialogue about mental health.

Both guests emphasize the significance of daily mental health practices, connection with others, and the necessity of seeking help when needed.

TL;DR

Dom Harvey and Sir John Kirwan discuss mental health, personal struggles, and the importance of emotional connection and daily practices.

Episode

1:23:13

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[Music]

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[Music]

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[Music]

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Runners only with dom Harvey and Sir

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John James Patrick Kerwin

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how does that sound you said John James

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Patrick since my mum told me off right

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isn't that right she's been passed for

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the last four years so there you go

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right oh sorry to hear that I wasn't

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aware of that yeah and uh This was 92.

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oh that was a good announcement and what

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about your dad is he still here he

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passed 10 years ago right right yeah he

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had his first triple bypass when he was

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sort of

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59 so he got through to 84 which is

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pretty good Innings considering the he

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had three triple bypasses and stuff

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might you step he used to have dripping

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on bread white bread for breakfast you

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know back in the day I think that's

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right we used to use that growing up as

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well what even was it just fat yeah no

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it's just pure fat I used to make it on

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a Wednesday morning when I was a butcher

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and basically you just all the cuttings

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of fat you just boil and then all the

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excess meat comes to the top scrape that

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off and then you pour it I used to pour

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it into those little dripping things

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amazing amazing I'd like to like touch

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upon that it's uh geez it feels like

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we're going straight into it but um you

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touch upon your relationship with your

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dad because I've heard some interviews

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that you've done and he's like an

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instrumental part of your life in a

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massive way yeah and I think um

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one of the one of the things that I talk

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about often

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is how the world is pushing us to

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think about a capitalistic form of

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success right

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um and both my mum and dad were amazing

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parents and Incredibly wise but if you

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put them on the world stage today you

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probably wouldn't give them any credit

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for being wise you know mum was was uh

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was a stay-at-home mum dad was a butcher

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but they were amazing parents and

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Incredibly wise and I remember when Dad

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was very very unwell you know I said to

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him I had very fortunate I had three

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days with him

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and I said Dad what's success and he

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said how many bastards want to carry out

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when you die you know yeah and Dad and

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you know when Dad passed you know like

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30 people said oh can I help with Dad

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you know you need any help can we carry

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him out and all that sort of stuff and I

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think that when I talk about the

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capitalistic world I'm a capitalist

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myself you know but I think the world is

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pushing us to think about success and

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material gain rather than

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possibly being a great dad or you know

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being a great friend yeah that's

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probably your dad's thing like how many

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people are willing to carry you out it's

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probably a good way of geez we're going

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straight deep into it it's probably a

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good way of looking at it because I mean

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there's um there's the rear few people

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like you uh who have done enough stuff

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in your life that you're going to be

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remembered by a broader audience people

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that don't even like know you personally

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but I suppose that's the thing for most

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people it's the impact you have on

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you know how sad other people that

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actually know you are going to be once

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you're gone

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I think um you know another thing data

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was sit the same in the same breath was

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you know it's nose having the Flash's

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car in the car park of the cemetery

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um you know you can't take anything with

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you okay yeah no absolutely and

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um you know I was brought up a Catholic

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and we believe in God and

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um you know that was a that was another

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interesting

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um search that I had to go on when I was

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you know coming out of my Illness but

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but I think I had a life-changing event

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which made me look at life way

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differently and that was you know a

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clinical depression and wanting to jump

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out of a window one night and I think if

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you talk to anyone who's had a

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a scare with health or whatever you know

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you do start to look at these things a

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little bit differently and you do start

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reassessing and I was very fortunate

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that I did that at 23. you know so

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um I keep get I keep getting dragged

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back into the the rat race I keep having

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to

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you know and I think you've been through

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it yourself you know you've done a bit

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of a journey of Discovery over the last

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what 18 months is it I I yeah um

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actually probably last last few years

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like I've um I don't know geez you know

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I suppose there was like a bunch of

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stuff that I just just didn't deal with

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um yeah I went through a relationship

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breakup went through years of like

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fertility treatment and IVF and there's

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a bunch of stuff and the analogy I like

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to use is it's like getting old gym

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clothes and shoving it in a bag and just

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leaving it there and zipping it up and

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the the smell is only going to get worse

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and worse and you need to address that

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and sooner rather than later and then I

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think

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um I never I never really felt suicidal

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or anything but there was um a therapist

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said to me you know she have you ever

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felt you know like taking your own life

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and I said not really but I said there

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are nights where I'll drink three

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bottles of wine maybe more and then just

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be quite content if I don't wake up in

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the morning she just sort of shrugged

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her shoulders and said that's not really

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a big deal a lot of people think that

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which made me feel really good but I

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think the big thing for me was um

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um a mate of mine took his he was

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bipolar and no one no one knew no one

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otherly his wife afternoon and some very

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close people but I consider myself a

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pretty good friend and I had no idea and

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he took his life in a very dramatic way

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like by getting in front of a train and

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um I thought at that point should have

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if Daryl was capable of having that weak

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moment where he makes a such a permanent

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decision to such a temporary problem

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then you know we could all have that

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moment and that was alarming for me yeah

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I mean I never planned my own suicide

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for that I was felt very very grateful

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but I'd had suicidal ruminations which

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was so damn scary that you know I used

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to end up shaking in bed yeah you

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mentioned before something about um

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wanting to jump out of a window yeah

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that was that was on the um on an all

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black tour actually and I've been hiding

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my mental health and my anxiety and my

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anxiety fell into a depression because

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uh two different illnesses and I had no

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understanding of either of them

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um you know you're probably old enough

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to remember One Flew Over the Cuckoo's

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Nest right yeah the Jack Nicholson movie

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yeah but that was my reference right

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that was my reference to mental health

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so I thought that if I don't if I you

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know if I I talk to someone I'm going to

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get locked up I'm going to get locked up

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with Jack Nicholson and chief the big

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American Indian guy and nurse ratchet

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yeah and I can laugh about it I can

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laugh about it now which is which is a

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healthy place to be but the reality was

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I just did not understand what was going

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on in my head and the three things I

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talk about with mental health

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that is part of the illness and I say to

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people it's an illness not a weakness

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right

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and

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what happened with me was I was ignoring

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the signs I didn't know what it was and

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this illness takes away your self-esteem

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your self-confidence and your enjoyment

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in life and life's pretty shitty without

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those three things right and that's

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where I was living and I had these

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suicidal ruminations which used to scare

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me and one night I was in a hotel room

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in in Buenos Aires the Hilton on the

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10th floor the window was open and I

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thought of sick of fighting this [ __ ] I

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was going to run and jump out guy lying

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next to me said JK you've got a good

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heart saved my life his name was Michael

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Jones

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Sir Michael Jones nice man the Iceman

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um and and have you you've obviously

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spoken to him in the years since did he

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have you asked him why or yeah why is it

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those words at that moment I've got

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goosebumps man just yeah yeah I mean the

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interesting thing about ice is a

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beautiful man I saw him yesterday

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actually

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um you know he said well God must have

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told me Jack I thought should if God

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knows who I am I'm all good

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um you know and and he he is you know I

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think when you when you talk about this

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world and you would have met people who

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have an amazing EQ and other people have

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an amazing IQ and some have great IQ and

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no EQ

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um but he had amazing EQ so I'm pretty

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sure he would have sensed it and and he

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would have felt it and and um

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and the timing of it was impeccable so

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so okay so so you're lying you're lying

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there on on your bed next to next to

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your teammate and you're having these

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thoughts about doing something as final

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as that and then he says those words

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that change your mind what happens then

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do you like do you do you break down and

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like can spell your guts no totally hide

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it

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um just got me through that moment

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carried on like he would have said it

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for no reason I wouldn't have reacted to

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it but I didn't jump out the window but

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he didn't know any of that was going on

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I played a test match for New Zealand

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the next day scored two tries of

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relevance like watching myself

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from the stand like an out of body

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experience which sounds a bit freaky but

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wasn't quite that but it was just like

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running

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just on nothing

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um but I think it was so frightening

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that it made me reach out to get help so

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I realized wow that was close I need to

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do something about that so that was sort

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of my pivotal moment and then when I got

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home you know I did reach out and I went

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and saw my doctor

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um the stupid thing was the doctor had

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been on tour with us for five weeks but

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I wouldn't talk to him about it yeah

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I've read this in your book how more

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Blackstone Christ so this is uh Dr John

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maker yeah yeah

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um so and that's another alarming thing

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it's like your your mask was so good

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none of your none of your teammates

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friends had any [ __ ] clue well though

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all our mass is good right yours was

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good yeah yeah you know I mean it's just

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what we do and I think part of our part

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of our cultural problem that we need to

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address like I talk about living in

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Italy right so living in New Zealand go

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to work in the morning morning how are

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yeah sweet bro yeah I've been fishing

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you know Life's good had a great weekend

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you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah you

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go to Italy and so how about I feel like

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[ __ ] you know

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had a fight with Mumsy like it's you

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know

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and it's more on a more authentic chat

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but but you get you feel awkward as a

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kiwi to start with right yeah because we

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are quite superficial and that's not a

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that's not a criticism that's just an

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observation of mine whereas in Italy

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people will say to you that they've got

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words for for stuff we don't talk about

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like in their common you know Commerce

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like

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Hi how are you I'm really nervous and

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anxious you know and people say that to

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you Australia and invariably you just go

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oh okay what's going on you know can I

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buy a cup of coffee or you know but then

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the next day as a kiwi oh [ __ ] should I

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say hello to them and you say hello to

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them and they say yeah I'm all good so

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so the whole

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um keeping

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key emotions down and I think there's

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two that especially as males I think

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females are way better and I don't know

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whether this is and it also reflects on

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our suicide rate

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um where we I wasn't brought up to deal

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with anger or crying two fundamental

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emotions to be whole

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right what do you mean I I sort of

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understand the crying thing like because

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um yeah I mean the title of your book is

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All Blacks don't cry but I think uh New

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Zealand men just don't cry it's an

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emotion that you um you try and suppress

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I guess but what what do you mean the

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anger thing um well I don't know if

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you've been to a pub lately or get to a

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pub around closing time you can actually

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feel oh the oh yeah gotcha you can feel

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because anger is a perfect emotion you

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should never hold it down but how you

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express it should be

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in a non-violent positive way for anger

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yeah right so once again talking about

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the Italians because I understand that

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culture and you've just been around the

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world on your trips

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um you know you see people arguing in

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Spain or in Italy and and they they get

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all this emotion out and then it's all

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over you know and so I think those

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things whereas we suppress it and it

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comes out at the wrong time and anger I

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think you know

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um you were talking about your emotions

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you know when you decided to change your

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life a couple of years ago and and I

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talk about you know when you're not

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feeling great you're

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you know your actions aren't aligned

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with your values right and so you always

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feel a bit

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off and so I think that what I learned

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during my depressive years was that I'm

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not my emotions on my values and so I'm

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okay if I'm angry now I just go and do

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something positive with it you know go

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for a walk or

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Danielle or listen to music Whatever

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Gets that to pass yeah so um so one one

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thing I wanted to talk to you about is

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um and uh Dr John May who addresses this

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in your book he talks about how you uh

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when you're at your worst you were

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scared of not necessarily like doing

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something bad to yourself like jumping

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out the window but about like doing

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something bad to to someone else what

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did he mean exactly

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I'd watch the news and then you know

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like if you watch the news last night

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there's been a shooter in the in the

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states or stabbing in early South

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Auckland

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um I'd be scared that that was me I was

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scared that this is what this illness

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was it was going to drive me to do

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something like that it's so irrational

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though oh exactly I mean I felt like I

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was going insane

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um and but it was a real fear and it was

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so scary like I walked past a knife in

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the in my kitchen thinking [ __ ] I'm

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going to stab someone and stab myself

00:13:22

right but that was the illness not me I

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just didn't know that right

00:13:27

um and that sort of stuff would drive me

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to bed having an anxiety attack or too

00:13:31

scared to go out or too scared to drive

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or you know and so if I wasn't

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ruminating about

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um suicide I was ruminated about being

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you know one of society's

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um headlines was it just all concerning

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oh every a minute felt like an hour an

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hour felt like a day and a day felt like

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a week how long how long are we talking

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uh I think probably off and on so like I

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would like for example during the 87

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World Cup I was having anxiety attacks

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but they'd come and go and I'd go back

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to normal so I had I was having a good

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time as well right so they'd come on for

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what like an hour a couple of hours yeah

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depending starting just briefly you know

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just short ones and then sometimes an

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hour sometimes half a day and then

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there's a hangover from it that I call

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fear and then which is not uncommon the

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anxiety then fell into a depression so

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it just didn't go away and that was

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probably uh two years

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and then it probably took me

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um from 1989 to 1996 to really come out

00:14:38

of it and get back to what I would say

00:14:40

you know one of the things I was scared

00:14:43

of was me getting myself back

00:14:45

but I actually think I got a better

00:14:46

version but I was getting getting back

00:14:49

to normal how do you mean one thing what

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do you mean one of the things you were

00:14:53

scared of was getting yourself back well

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you're in this altered state yeah you

00:14:57

know you're in this Freak Out World

00:15:00

um and it's so dominated by your illness

00:15:02

and stuff that what you're what you're

00:15:04

trying to do is just get through every

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day so and often when I'd have these

00:15:09

breaks from it so I'd feel okay I wanted

00:15:11

myself back I wanted to go back to what

00:15:14

I perceived was normal right

00:15:16

and the best way I could explain normal

00:15:19

is just unconscious mind you're just

00:15:21

living you're not thinking too much

00:15:22

you're just you know doing your [ __ ] and

00:15:24

having a good time and

00:15:25

um you know not not grabbing hold of

00:15:27

emotions too hard and just getting on

00:15:29

with it that's what I wanted back

00:15:32

um but that's a long time to be

00:15:35

basically riding through hell yeah

00:15:37

they're basically living with the

00:15:39

mentality you know these um there's

00:15:41

there's mantras and mentalities like put

00:15:43

one foot in front of the one put one

00:15:45

foot in front of the other no storm

00:15:46

lasts forever the sun always comes up

00:15:49

eventually but six or seven years [ __ ] I

00:15:52

mean this wasn't all it was yeah it

00:15:53

wasn't all bad I'm

00:15:56

I'm pretty scary I mean I remember when

00:15:58

I was relatively well and this is one

00:16:00

thing

00:16:01

it's really difficult when you start

00:16:02

coming out of it you're waiting for it

00:16:04

to come back so you're always living

00:16:05

with this on the knife edge yeah on this

00:16:08

edge of waiting and that's what I talk

00:16:10

about

00:16:11

um anxiety you know when you have an

00:16:12

anxiety attack you put it into the back

00:16:14

of your mind into the cupboard of your

00:16:16

mind but it leaves a little Scar and

00:16:19

that scar is called fear So eventually

00:16:21

ended up you end up living in more and

00:16:23

more fear and that's what happened to me

00:16:24

then I fell into depression which is

00:16:26

just like a full-time anxiety attack and

00:16:28

that sort of lasted

00:16:30

um and that when I say lasted you're not

00:16:33

getting any peace even when you're

00:16:34

relatively well you're thinking about it

00:16:36

coming back so you're just in this

00:16:37

constant cycle

00:16:39

and then I think once I reached out to

00:16:42

Doc sort of 89 so

00:16:46

um started getting anxiety attacks in 87

00:16:48

88 had a really good year but with

00:16:50

anxiety attacks so good year on the

00:16:52

footy field 89 sort of fell into it

00:16:56

um and uh you know I remember I remember

00:16:59

going to Italy and I was just crippled

00:17:02

for for a couple of weeks and then it

00:17:04

went away right and then when I flew

00:17:06

home in 89 I came back like I had a I

00:17:10

had a anxiety attack I walked I remember

00:17:13

um we'd won the championship in the

00:17:15

league

00:17:16

I went to the airport and my my

00:17:18

girlfriend then who who's now my wife

00:17:21

you know we'd fall in love had a I'd had

00:17:23

a really good five months to obtain team

00:17:25

at one I'd forgotten all about the first

00:17:27

two weeks where I was really unwell

00:17:30

um and I walked through customs and I

00:17:33

had this massive anxiety attack this is

00:17:34

in Italy you know with guys holding guns

00:17:36

and [ __ ] and I said I Associated my

00:17:39

anxiety attack and my depression to New

00:17:41

Zealand so I turned around and went back

00:17:43

and I was never gonna come back to New

00:17:45

Zealand so I turned went back through

00:17:46

customs

00:17:48

um but everyone had gone as you do you

00:17:49

know white people goodbye so I was

00:17:51

knowing this I went back through customs

00:17:52

right and came home

00:17:54

um and it never really left me then

00:17:56

probably until till 91 I was still on

00:17:59

antidepressants in the 91 World Cup

00:18:01

and then in 92 I started to really get a

00:18:05

handle on it and started to get some

00:18:06

confidence back and and started to ex

00:18:10

really really accept it and then really

00:18:11

work on it yeah are you still on any

00:18:14

sort of medication now or no no no no no

00:18:15

no I um well one of the mistakes I made

00:18:18

was that I came off my medication too

00:18:20

quick

00:18:22

um and the way the way I put it is you

00:18:25

know I've got friends of mine that are

00:18:26

on medication for all their life and you

00:18:29

know if I

00:18:30

if I say to people in a room you know

00:18:33

put up put up your hand if you're taking

00:18:35

an anti-inflammatory or a blood pressure

00:18:36

pill or whatever you know it just it

00:18:38

just is what it is but I was pretty

00:18:40

determined that I wanted to get a system

00:18:42

in place where I didn't have to

00:18:45

um and so it took me until about 1996

00:18:48

with a couple of false starts because I

00:18:51

think the antidepressants gave me

00:18:52

balance to work on my illness yeah and

00:18:54

the first time I thought the pills were

00:18:56

going to fix me and I didn't work hard

00:18:58

enough on my mental health plan and then

00:19:01

the second time you know I I came off

00:19:03

them a bit slower I had everything in in

00:19:05

place to look after myself

00:19:08

yes my um my exam JJ she's on them and

00:19:12

uh she said to a doctor at one point

00:19:14

like how long how long will I be on

00:19:15

these for him the doctor was like well

00:19:16

you've got a chemical imbalance in your

00:19:18

brain and these sort that out so there's

00:19:20

nothing wrong with being on them on them

00:19:22

forever

00:19:23

my brother and Perth he had a similar

00:19:25

thing he was he was on them and um he

00:19:27

felt amazing so he went off them and

00:19:29

realized the drugs were doing all the

00:19:31

work for him yeah yeah and I think I

00:19:33

think what I say to what I say to people

00:19:36

is

00:19:37

um

00:19:38

you know for me I was talking about it

00:19:40

the other day so in the 80s man the

00:19:42

beginning of the 1980s we all smoked a

00:19:44

have a [ __ ] and bloody a few beers and no

00:19:47

one really gave a [ __ ] by the end of the

00:19:48

80s people sort of saying you know the

00:19:50

Smoking Man

00:19:51

you need to look at the health

00:19:52

consequences and then the government

00:19:54

gets involved and then now if you smoke

00:19:56

I don't judge you you know the risks

00:19:58

it's your call I think mental health now

00:20:01

is is that where smoking was in the 80s

00:20:03

it's doing a whole lot of damage and we

00:20:05

all need to know how to look up to our

00:20:08

mental health you know and that's why I

00:20:09

created Groove and that's why I've got

00:20:10

Mighty the the Charities but you know

00:20:13

when you talk about the pills what I I

00:20:15

had an amazing woman called Dr Louise

00:20:17

Armstrong who said okay JK what are you

00:20:20

going to do every single day for your

00:20:22

mental health right and so I have a

00:20:25

daily mental health plan that I put

00:20:26

first and people say why do you put it

00:20:28

first I say well I'm a better husband

00:20:29

better father better work mate better

00:20:32

better mate

00:20:33

um so how do you do that and I think

00:20:36

you've got to build into these but build

00:20:38

it into your day and put it first so

00:20:40

obviously this is this is your plan so

00:20:42

this works for you but um yeah I mean

00:20:46

um what is it is it just like structure

00:20:48

structure and routine

00:20:58

um for example I went and saw my mum

00:20:59

right my mum said um

00:21:02

I said my mom did you know I'm dead

00:21:04

inside and she said well the good thing

00:21:06

about your dead son is you're still here

00:21:08

and she said and you can start again I

00:21:11

went right [ __ ] I can start again

00:21:14

because I always thought that I had to

00:21:15

bring my past with me and she said no

00:21:18

you can there's no rules in this world

00:21:20

boy you can start again and she said you

00:21:23

need to start by smelling the Roses

00:21:25

and I thought about that it's a bit of

00:21:28

an old saying and I thought about that

00:21:29

on the way home right

00:21:31

um

00:21:32

and I had nothing to look forward to so

00:21:34

depression and anxiety you've got

00:21:36

nothing to look forward to you are just

00:21:38

dead and so the next morning I had a

00:21:40

shower

00:21:42

um but for the first time

00:21:44

in my life I felt the water

00:21:46

and I actually just stood there for a

00:21:49

minute and a half got it really hot and

00:21:51

just really really enjoyed it

00:21:53

and I still don't do that to the stay

00:21:55

sort of mindfulness in a way that is

00:21:57

mindfulness right yeah but people say

00:21:58

what is mindfulness mindfulness is just

00:22:00

being in the prison and enjoying the

00:22:02

moment right and if you had a shower

00:22:04

this morning you might have been

00:22:05

thinking about [ __ ] what you did

00:22:06

yesterday you got that you got this

00:22:07

bloody podcast to do with JK and you've

00:22:09

got those 10 other things to do and you

00:22:12

know you get on this on this journey

00:22:15

without actually stopping and and so for

00:22:18

the first time in about five years I had

00:22:20

someone to look forward to every day and

00:22:21

that was my shower so then

00:22:23

um habitual change is quite hard so I

00:22:25

started building on that you know and I

00:22:27

absolutely love my coffee so straight

00:22:30

after I've had a shower I now

00:22:32

have a workout first and then I go and

00:22:34

have a shower and then I I have a coffee

00:22:37

but I don't invite my phone my phone's

00:22:39

not invited you know and I have a coffee

00:22:42

um so so there's so that so for example

00:22:46

the six pillars are chill what are you

00:22:49

doing just to really

00:22:51

relax and chill you know what are you

00:22:53

doing physically and you know you're

00:22:55

you're into your running

00:22:57

um but doing is very very important how

00:23:00

do you connect right so for me

00:23:02

connection when someone comes into my

00:23:05

heart either text or mothering them

00:23:06

connection is really really important

00:23:08

one of the things about

00:23:11

um about mental health is you feel

00:23:13

lonely you can be a room with 100 people

00:23:15

and you feel really good early so those

00:23:17

solid connections are really really

00:23:19

important right um

00:23:22

so so when you think about my daily

00:23:24

mental health plan so this morning I've

00:23:26

had a shower I've had a workout

00:23:28

right

00:23:30

um and I've had a cup of coffee Factor

00:23:32

two cup of coffee

00:23:33

but one was sitting in here with my

00:23:35

workmates and just have any on yeah

00:23:37

right

00:23:39

um so also I think

00:23:41

um I talk about

00:23:44

honey bitty right I had a nanny biddy

00:23:47

she had um purple here and she used to

00:23:49

knit

00:23:51

to drive us nuts but knitting is a form

00:23:54

of meditation so I tried meditation and

00:23:57

I can't meditate right I can't meditate

00:24:00

because I've got a ruminating mind right

00:24:01

it was really really busy I probably

00:24:03

could if I spent more time on it but I'm

00:24:04

also very busy so early in the piece

00:24:06

with Dr Louise she said well you know

00:24:08

you've got a you've got an act of mind

00:24:10

so I just call my my mind a monkey mind

00:24:12

you know I call my mind Bob the monkey

00:24:15

right so Bob the monkey hates reading

00:24:19

right when when I read Bob the monkey

00:24:21

goes into his cage has a banana and

00:24:23

falls asleep right

00:24:25

um Bob the monkey hates cooking yeah

00:24:28

right

00:24:30

um so every single day and uh during

00:24:33

covert covert was taking so much away

00:24:35

from me that I wanted to find another

00:24:37

thing to piss Bob the monkey off and

00:24:39

that was playing in the guitar now it

00:24:40

sounds like I'm killing a cat in the

00:24:42

lounge but after I played for half an

00:24:44

hour I feel amazing so I do the one of

00:24:47

those three things and sometimes all of

00:24:48

those three things in my day so I know

00:24:51

and then I breathe as well I do box

00:24:54

breathing six or seven times a day right

00:24:57

so

00:24:59

if I read before I go to sleep you know

00:25:01

what Bob does

00:25:03

goes in those caves and falls asleep if

00:25:04

I don't read before I say you know what

00:25:06

Bob does Yoo-hoo

00:25:08

yeah and he goes on this so if you put

00:25:12

those if you put those pillars into your

00:25:14

day and I just call them my daily mental

00:25:16

health plan right then you're starting

00:25:18

to do mindfulness you know you're

00:25:20

starting to connect you're starting to

00:25:21

move you're starting to do

00:25:23

um and you're starting to sexually build

00:25:25

this this day where you're taking that

00:25:27

time out for you the best way to explain

00:25:29

it is um we're animals at the end of the

00:25:32

day yeah right so there's a there's a a

00:25:35

zebra on the Savannah Desert and out of

00:25:38

the Bush Comes Alive trying to eat its

00:25:40

ass for breakfast they have this massive

00:25:41

chase the zebra gets away what does it

00:25:44

do

00:25:45

goes back to eating grass right what do

00:25:47

we do

00:25:48

we're always worried about the lion in

00:25:51

the bush and what is the line in the

00:25:52

bush the line in the bushes

00:25:54

emails that never stop your inbox is

00:25:56

always full

00:25:58

um there's no work-life balance anymore

00:25:59

you know you can it's just life you know

00:26:02

there's all this thing Wars in in

00:26:04

Ukraine all these things going on in our

00:26:06

in our world yeah so much stimulus so

00:26:09

much stimulus mate in this cell phone

00:26:10

which is a beautiful thing but also it

00:26:13

can take control I say to people don't

00:26:15

invite your cell phone to your coffee

00:26:16

date you know why because it'll get in

00:26:17

the way and you won't taste the coffee

00:26:19

so I think now in this modern world

00:26:22

technology has overtaken us

00:26:24

we've got all these inputs in our brain

00:26:26

and we just need to learn some of these

00:26:28

basic basic

00:26:31

tools for mental health so do you I feel

00:26:34

like they are um they're good pillars

00:26:36

and they're good things and I feel like

00:26:37

um I'll grab something for you very

00:26:39

quickly

00:26:42

there you go stay in here come out

00:26:58

so you can you can download this free

00:27:00

mate on the um

00:27:02

and the groove app but the thing in in

00:27:04

the we're on a podcast so you people

00:27:06

can't see it but what I like what I like

00:27:07

to do is show so this is this is all

00:27:09

based in in medical science if you do

00:27:12

these things every single day then

00:27:15

you'll you will be better but what I

00:27:17

didn't realize back in the day was that

00:27:19

my psychiatrist was building me to start

00:27:21

doing these things right and if you turn

00:27:23

it over that's mine

00:27:26

translated into what I do every single

00:27:28

day right Cafe shower read breathe tell

00:27:30

people I love them guitar yeah yeah you

00:27:33

know and I do that religiously and so it

00:27:36

can be anything you you you love your

00:27:39

running right yeah you're running for

00:27:40

you might be fundamental part of your

00:27:42

move and the other thing I say to people

00:27:44

is we're busy two birds with one stone

00:27:46

right so oh yeah 100 we're always

00:27:48

multitasking yeah exactly but you can do

00:27:50

that for your mental health so for

00:27:52

example I've got a I've got a I've got a

00:27:54

dog a little bit bigger than yours yours

00:27:56

is really small size mine

00:27:58

um but I take it with a walk for a walk

00:28:00

with my wife because that's the only

00:28:02

time we can connect right so I'm doing

00:28:04

my move

00:28:05

right I'm doing something physical but

00:28:08

I'm also connecting with my wife and the

00:28:10

dog's happy you can do those things in

00:28:12

our days because we need to

00:28:15

when um

00:28:17

when when what year did Junior wife meet

00:28:19

and has she been helpful in you being

00:28:21

more open and expressive not totally

00:28:24

yeah really did you suffer um like

00:28:27

mental health stuff before you met her

00:28:28

or would you um no it was sort of uh for

00:28:32

me it was

00:28:34

um a method so I got to Italy I had that

00:28:37

three weeks I was talking about it and

00:28:38

then I met her in this really beautiful

00:28:40

period of my life so I'd forgotten about

00:28:43

the three weeks of anxiety and that I'd

00:28:46

had and then I started playing really

00:28:48

well for me I met my wife you know I'm

00:28:50

living in Northern Italy going on dates

00:28:53

to Venice like just you know really full

00:28:56

time

00:28:58

um then the probably the next two years

00:29:00

for us were really rough I got really

00:29:02

unwell

00:29:03

um I was drinking too much it was she

00:29:04

doesn't agree with drinking

00:29:07

culturally very very different yeah you

00:29:09

know it came down to New Zealand didn't

00:29:11

like it to start with you know I'm

00:29:13

playing footy all sorts of different

00:29:14

stuff going on so we had a pretty we had

00:29:17

a pretty

00:29:18

um rough time early on yeah just early

00:29:20

on just yeah just

00:29:22

just change and her having both of us

00:29:25

having to change and so

00:29:28

um but then she was amazing

00:29:31

around my mental health because she just

00:29:33

thought it was normal whereas I thought

00:29:34

it was this massive thing in my life

00:29:37

which it was but she just thought it was

00:29:40

normal so she was really good at

00:29:42

accepting it and and helping me with

00:29:44

emotions you know I'm

00:29:46

I still I I'm still working on how good

00:29:50

they are at being emotional yeah

00:29:52

Italians you know like they can she can

00:29:55

fly off in that

00:29:56

you know and be angry and then in two

00:29:58

seconds later she's trying to give you a

00:30:00

kiss yeah well I went to um Argentina a

00:30:03

few years ago and I was surprised at um

00:30:04

the some this English speaking tour

00:30:05

guide I spoke to he said that most

00:30:07

people over there have a therapist and

00:30:08

it's just something they do so like a

00:30:10

therapist over there like personal

00:30:11

trainers here and people just go because

00:30:13

they like to gesticulate and vent and

00:30:16

but it's just not a not a kiwi way is it

00:30:18

it's like if you hear someone's going to

00:30:19

therapy it's like oh [ __ ] is everything

00:30:21

okay yeah and that needs to change yeah

00:30:23

I I uh I talk about the maid of mine who

00:30:26

came around and um

00:30:27

you know we're talking footy talking

00:30:29

code you know talking code and uh he

00:30:32

goes oh buddy you know stuff my knee at

00:30:35

touch the other night and I'm going like

00:30:36

yeah well we're playing the over 40 so

00:30:38

he gives a [ __ ]

00:30:39

it's not as if you're out out with

00:30:42

covert for the All Blacks no one really

00:30:45

cares

00:30:46

um but anyway we were talking away and

00:30:48

he said oh but that's not what I'm here

00:30:50

for bro you know I think I've got a case

00:30:51

of the jks and I said oh yeah he didn't

00:30:54

say that though yeah and I go okay okay

00:30:59

so what have you done for your knee and

00:31:01

he said well

00:31:02

you know it swelled up the next day I

00:31:04

went to the doctor the doctor gave me

00:31:05

some anti-inflammatory said oh you

00:31:06

better go and see you know a specialist

00:31:08

I went to see a specialist and and you

00:31:10

know the specialist actually is the

00:31:12

specialist that saw Sonny Bill Williams

00:31:13

I said well ask him to put some pace and

00:31:16

maybe some ABS back then when you get

00:31:17

operate on you know we're just having a

00:31:19

good old boys taking the test out of

00:31:21

each other

00:31:22

um and then he said and what the what

00:31:25

the doc said to me is actually do rehab

00:31:27

before I opt I'm going to get operated

00:31:28

in three weeks and then it's probably

00:31:30

going to be a you know a three to six

00:31:33

months recovery and I'll be back for

00:31:34

touch next summer I said oh cool no one

00:31:36

really gives a [ __ ]

00:31:37

but it's all good you know what I mean

00:31:40

um and I said what have you done for

00:31:42

your brain

00:31:43

anyway oh I've come to see you and I see

00:31:46

you I'm a butcher

00:31:47

yeah I can help you

00:31:50

and I'm happy to sit here and tell you

00:31:52

what I did but look what you did for

00:31:53

your knee

00:31:55

you should do that for your brain yeah

00:31:56

you know some of the greatest life

00:31:58

lessons I've learned have been off

00:32:00

psychologists and psychiatrists just

00:32:02

about understanding the Old nutmeg you

00:32:04

know

00:32:05

um so if we do it for our physical body

00:32:08

I'll say to you mate you've got a flu

00:32:10

for three days right what do you do you

00:32:12

go down to local chemist and whatever's

00:32:14

on TV Fire relax

00:32:16

whatever that is right and then after

00:32:18

three days if it hasn't come right you

00:32:20

go to the doctor yeah yeah and he says

00:32:22

oh well at the moment you know we can't

00:32:23

talk about the flu because everyone does

00:32:25

a covert test but you know what I mean

00:32:27

we take out we've got to take our mental

00:32:29

health like we do our physical health

00:32:30

yeah

00:32:31

well there's some since um I launched

00:32:33

this podcast in uh like February

00:32:35

um your mental health is something that

00:32:37

I've I've talked about a lot and I've um

00:32:39

I feel like I've got a lot of

00:32:40

undeserved and unnecessary

00:32:43

um DMS and kudos for people saying hey

00:32:45

it's good that you're talking about this

00:32:46

stuff

00:32:47

um but I feel like there's like physical

00:32:49

health and mental health and they

00:32:50

shouldn't be yeah you know you should

00:32:52

one shouldn't be excluded like the other

00:32:54

one isn't but I don't know if you

00:32:56

noticed on but you your head is attached

00:32:58

to your body you know what I mean yeah

00:33:00

by the neck right yeah and so everyone

00:33:04

has mental health right and mine came

00:33:07

out mentally I know people that it comes

00:33:10

out physically

00:33:11

um how do you mean how do you mean well

00:33:13

they just get aches and stomach aches

00:33:16

and caused by stress and yeah yeah and

00:33:18

chest pain and they go to the doctor and

00:33:20

Doctor there's nothing I mean I've I've

00:33:21

had I've had people that go to the

00:33:23

hospital with a heart attack and it's

00:33:24

anxiety yeah right so Stress and Anxiety

00:33:27

is a cumulative

00:33:29

if you don't get rid of it today you're

00:33:32

going to accumulate it for tomorrow and

00:33:34

you know you you I presume you've

00:33:37

changed your life in the last couple of

00:33:39

years but you had this incredibly busy

00:33:41

life right and I'll take you back to

00:33:43

when you're 23. you know you've finished

00:33:45

whatever your studies was and you start

00:33:47

your new job Christmas holidays come

00:33:48

around right by the time you get to the

00:33:51

car park you're on a holiday man you've

00:33:52

forgotten about work by the time you get

00:33:53

to your real holiday the next day it

00:33:55

feels like you've been on holiday for a

00:33:57

week you get three weeks off feels like

00:33:58

three months

00:33:59

what was the last time you went on

00:34:01

holiday how long did it take you to

00:34:03

disconnect from your phone how long does

00:34:04

it take you not to feel guilty about

00:34:06

answering emails how long does it take

00:34:08

you to stop your brain and just let your

00:34:10

brain wander you know like you pick up

00:34:12

your phone because your brain's so full

00:34:14

of [ __ ] now that you don't even know how

00:34:16

to just wander and think and create yeah

00:34:19

and and so if you don't get rid of your

00:34:22

stress and anxiety every day you're not

00:34:24

going to be able to recover on the

00:34:25

weekends you know so it's really really

00:34:28

important that we look at our mental

00:34:30

health like we do our physical health I

00:34:32

feel like the um the conversation has

00:34:34

come such a long way and you your the

00:34:38

work that you've done on that is just

00:34:39

phenomenal like you you were the you

00:34:41

were the Trailblazer like you were the

00:34:42

Edmund Hillary and the stuff why why

00:34:45

what year did you come out and talk of

00:34:47

mental health first of all and and why

00:34:49

did you decide that publicly when the

00:34:50

easy thing to do not the right thing to

00:34:52

do but the easy thing to do would just

00:34:53

be to keep it to yourself and keep it to

00:34:55

your family and keep it to Dr John

00:34:58

um so I think I'll be the face of this

00:35:00

for 15 years yeah it's been longer than

00:35:02

that though yeah yeah it feels longer

00:35:04

than that it does too

00:35:06

um and back back to my mum so uh

00:35:12

uh I didn't want to do it I thought I'm

00:35:14

going to ruin my reputation I'm going to

00:35:15

ruin everything I've worked hard for

00:35:18

people see me as

00:35:20

a leper in the society not good enough

00:35:23

not not

00:35:25

being able to handle the pressure

00:35:26

because this is what you go through when

00:35:28

you're in this hell you know you think

00:35:29

you think it's you rather than the

00:35:31

illness

00:35:32

and my mom said how bad was it in there

00:35:35

I said mum was hell on Earth like I

00:35:37

would not wish it on anyone and there

00:35:40

isn't anywhere in your head when you're

00:35:41

going when I was in depression right

00:35:42

right help

00:35:44

and she said well if you could help one

00:35:47

person not to live that hell would it be

00:35:49

worth it

00:35:50

and I said yes and she said well there's

00:35:52

your answer

00:35:53

so I've always done it for one person

00:35:57

whoever a I can help and B I just keep

00:36:01

telling the story because

00:36:04

um you know and I'm so pleased that

00:36:06

you're sitting here in front of me

00:36:08

because you are now picking up the Baton

00:36:09

and you're talking about it and you

00:36:11

might not have the same experience as me

00:36:14

but it doesn't matter everyone's got

00:36:15

their own mental health journey and

00:36:17

whether it's you know you're going

00:36:19

through your breakup or you know being a

00:36:21

celebrity or whatever that Journey was

00:36:23

for you everyone has their own mental

00:36:26

health and everyone has their own points

00:36:28

where we're we're pushing right so you

00:36:31

know I talked about bipolar before and

00:36:33

the stats in our country are four

00:36:34

percent of people are born with some

00:36:35

sort of mental health issue

00:36:36

schizophrenia bifolar some sort of

00:36:40

um some sort of personality disorder and

00:36:43

we should be spending as much money as

00:36:45

we can and getting them as early as we

00:36:47

can because I do believe the future of

00:36:49

those illnesses will be turned around

00:36:51

like all other illnesses four percent of

00:36:53

the population never suffer but the 92

00:36:55

percent of us you and me and everyone

00:36:57

else in this world we get pushed up and

00:36:59

down that Spectrum right so what

00:37:01

happened to me was I was an

00:37:02

anxiety-based person that didn't deal

00:37:04

with this anxiety and I got pushed

00:37:06

off the cliff we've got to stop pushing

00:37:09

people off the cliff we've got to put a

00:37:10

fence at the top of the cliff and move

00:37:11

that move that back

00:37:14

so you must be so proud of the stuff

00:37:16

you've done on this realm not at all

00:37:18

mate no no no I mean how can you not be

00:37:20

how can you say that um because mental

00:37:22

health taught me to live by the day so

00:37:25

can you change yesterday no can you tell

00:37:28

me what's gonna happen tomorrow no no

00:37:30

exactly right so

00:37:32

um I woke up five years ago and felt an

00:37:34

absolute failure and I felt a failure

00:37:36

now don't get me wrong

00:37:38

um

00:37:39

Friday used to be a big shock of mine

00:37:41

and it used to scare the [ __ ] out of me

00:37:43

and make me swim very fast as the Sharks

00:37:45

does but unfortunately sharks always

00:37:47

catch you and failure was one of my big

00:37:49

sharks but now I love failure it's one

00:37:52

of the greatest teachers yeah the

00:37:54

biggest lessons I learned yeah exactly

00:37:56

and so I embrace it so I woke up five

00:37:58

years ago and two things happened to me

00:38:01

I looked at the newspaper and our

00:38:04

suicide rates

00:38:05

are going the wrong way so by the end of

00:38:08

this evening

00:38:10

one person will be dead by tomorrow

00:38:12

evening three people will be dead two

00:38:15

males and one female three human lives

00:38:18

um so I felt like I'd failed and then I

00:38:22

get really really upset with

00:38:25

um people

00:38:27

sort of talking about this issue and

00:38:28

nothing really changing yeah so our

00:38:30

stats aren't eight hundred thousand

00:38:31

people committed suicide last year in

00:38:34

Australia 120 attempts eight deaths a

00:38:36

day so I've failed I might have raised

00:38:39

the awareness but we needed to look at

00:38:40

things differently and so I decided to

00:38:43

look at things very differently five

00:38:44

years ago and created a foundation which

00:38:47

has I facilitated for a year and we

00:38:50

created a a mental health curriculum for

00:38:54

primary schools and the first the first

00:38:57

thing we we spoke about was well we

00:38:59

should put it in secondary school

00:39:00

because the kids need it now at

00:39:01

secondary school but actually they need

00:39:03

to learn the tools by the time they get

00:39:05

to secondary school yeah they are

00:39:06

preventions better than a cure exactly

00:39:08

yeah and then the other thing the other

00:39:09

thing thing that I did was

00:39:11

depression.org.nz 12 years ago which we

00:39:13

created with the New Zealand government

00:39:14

was one of the most successful online

00:39:17

mental health tools in the world so it

00:39:19

won all these amazing Awards this is no

00:39:22

one's fault but for the last 12 years no

00:39:24

one spent any money on the technology

00:39:25

kept and I gave my image to the

00:39:29

government for nothing I was proud to do

00:39:30

so driving people to the site that was

00:39:33

then starting to get clunky so very

00:39:35

lucky I met my my business partner Adam

00:39:38

Clark who who's been absolutely amazing

00:39:40

and and my dream was to create a

00:39:44

world-class world-changing digital

00:39:45

platform

00:39:47

that people could teach and learn and

00:39:50

understand their mental health and what

00:39:51

we wanted to do was do that through

00:39:53

businesses because we didn't want the

00:39:54

end user to pay right I had a few false

00:39:56

starts and then I went to him and I said

00:39:58

okay I want to reach 2 million 456 000

00:40:00

people because that's the working force

00:40:02

of New Zealand

00:40:03

um and he said JK this is a worldwide

00:40:06

problem we should reach 100 million

00:40:07

people and save a hundred thousand lives

00:40:10

because I firmly believe that the future

00:40:12

is everybody understanding their mental

00:40:15

health and then having the tools and

00:40:17

techniques that they need every single

00:40:18

day to deal with what the world throws

00:40:21

at them so that's my journey at the

00:40:23

moment but I don't I don't look back and

00:40:25

I don't look forward all I do is I and

00:40:27

this was because I wanted to jump out of

00:40:29

a window one night all I want to be is

00:40:31

the best meat today and I break those

00:40:33

things into four things

00:40:36

I want to be a great

00:40:38

dad I want to be a great husband I want

00:40:42

to be really good at whatever

00:40:43

I'm doing so at the moment it's it's

00:40:45

mighty and and

00:40:48

um and growth and the last thing is I

00:40:50

want to be very spiritual

00:40:53

and that's another story because I had

00:40:55

some issues with God

00:40:56

but I want to make sure that I'm looking

00:40:58

after my spirituality and and my mental

00:41:00

health is

00:41:02

is the foundation yeah right those

00:41:04

things right yeah yeah can we talk about

00:41:06

the um the religion stuff because you

00:41:07

touched upon that early early in this uh

00:41:10

this conversation and you just brought

00:41:11

it up again now so you were raised

00:41:13

religious yeah I was raised to Catholic

00:41:15

ah same

00:41:17

in Europe as well have you got a guilt

00:41:21

shark most of us

00:41:22

got it every time um you're growing up

00:41:26

if um if if I did something wrong one of

00:41:28

my brothers did something wrong and went

00:41:29

to snitch to mum or dad it'll always be

00:41:31

like don't worry God will punish them

00:41:33

exactly or if you do that that's going

00:41:35

to happen so we feel guilty so much

00:41:37

can't let go so you're an atheist now no

00:41:39

no no no no no no no not at all I

00:41:42

um I'm not a practicing Catholic so I

00:41:45

don't

00:41:46

um I'm not a Vatican Catholic

00:41:48

but I well it's a really interesting

00:41:50

story so I got told all my life as you

00:41:53

would of that if I'm in trouble and I

00:41:55

need God and I pray he'd be there for me

00:41:57

I wanted to jump out a window I prayed

00:41:59

and it wasn't there

00:42:01

so I was pretty dark on him for a long

00:42:03

time and then I went and actually did a

00:42:06

prenuptial wedding thing

00:42:08

with my wife right and I said I'm not

00:42:10

doing it she said it's six week course I

00:42:12

said I'm not doing it like are you

00:42:13

kidding me but anyway I got her down to

00:42:16

three days any argument another one

00:42:21

yeah but anyway I walked in and I just

00:42:24

told this priest

00:42:25

[Music]

00:42:26

um

00:42:27

I just sit on man this is what happened

00:42:30

pretty hours guide and he said to me how

00:42:33

was um

00:42:35

how was your family when you told them I

00:42:37

said oh they were awesome you know they

00:42:38

showed me a lot of love

00:42:40

and he said okay and he said what about

00:42:41

your mates and I said well my mates were

00:42:43

really pissed off that I hadn't told

00:42:44

them about my depression and stuff but

00:42:46

when I told them they were amazing I

00:42:48

said they showed you a lot of love eh I

00:42:49

said

00:42:51

yeah and then and they said well what

00:42:52

about your wife to be how a chef's eyes

00:42:54

it's so patient amazing oh she showed

00:42:57

you a lot of money and I said yeah and

00:42:58

he said make God is love

00:43:00

that's all he is he is love and that

00:43:04

really gave me peace because then I

00:43:06

decided that if I show more love as much

00:43:10

love as I can to as many people as I can

00:43:12

then I will be a spiritually okay and

00:43:16

then if I do get to heaven and Izzy up

00:43:17

there I'm pretty sure he's going to let

00:43:19

me in anyway yeah yeah I mean the guys

00:43:21

hey Dom how are you met you in here

00:43:24

you know what I mean yeah we got all the

00:43:26

[ __ ] we got brought up yeah but if

00:43:29

you're a and this is this is this led me

00:43:31

to thinking about you know

00:43:33

um you know you see lots of other

00:43:35

religions but at the end of the day if

00:43:37

you as a person are going to show your

00:43:40

community and those around you as much

00:43:41

love as you can then I think spiritually

00:43:44

you're in a really good space yeah but

00:43:45

giving love

00:43:47

um takes a bit of time and takes a bit

00:43:49

of effort you know yeah it it takes work

00:43:52

on to be able to give back to your

00:43:54

community to be able to give to those

00:43:55

around you time especially right

00:43:58

um the world is taking time away from us

00:44:00

and so a lot of the love that you can

00:44:02

show to something you need to plan and

00:44:05

make sure you're doing it properly yeah

00:44:07

so so you mentioned before the um the

00:44:09

the priest or spiritual leader asking

00:44:12

you like how your friends were when they

00:44:13

found out about your depression I just

00:44:15

want to touch upon this for a second so

00:44:18

um I think it's Grant fox in your book

00:44:19

he he talks about how he had no idea

00:44:21

sort of thing did should it have been

00:44:24

and and like in hindsight you chose to

00:44:27

keep it to yourself and um they would

00:44:29

probably probably seem like the right

00:44:31

thing to do in hindsight should you

00:44:33

should you have told your friends that

00:44:34

were close to you on the team or should

00:44:36

have been up to them too no no no why

00:44:38

should the onus be on you when you're

00:44:39

the sick one because you can't see it if

00:44:41

I walked in limping today you'd say oh

00:44:43

it's okay what's wrong with your knee

00:44:44

right

00:44:46

um You can't see it yeah and so people

00:44:49

don't know

00:44:50

and as we mentioned before we faked I

00:44:53

faked it right so I'm leveling in this

00:44:55

hell but I could still sit down and do

00:44:57

an interview or I could go and play a

00:44:59

game of rugby right so

00:45:02

um I say this it is your health so you

00:45:05

share it with whoever you feel

00:45:07

comfortable with so I've shared mine

00:45:09

with the world but you you share it with

00:45:11

people who sure love you and care for

00:45:13

you right and you might lose a couple of

00:45:16

people around it right but those are the

00:45:18

decisions that you need to make and so

00:45:20

your mental health is to do what you

00:45:23

want to do with it but keeping it to

00:45:25

yourself and not telling people is not

00:45:26

the answer

00:45:27

the answer is you know if you don't want

00:45:30

to tell your friends you've got to tell

00:45:33

your family or if it's not your family

00:45:34

you've got to tell a psychiatrist a

00:45:36

psychologist you've got to get help

00:45:37

right so the most important thing is you

00:45:41

share it with those who you trust

00:45:42

because then it's half the load you know

00:45:45

when I started sharing I mean

00:45:47

that person's pain that through that

00:45:49

that person you know and you start

00:45:51

building a community which makes you

00:45:52

feel way more normal yeah because did

00:45:55

you find as soon as you came clean about

00:45:56

a whole lot of people came to you they

00:45:58

had exactly the same feelings yeah I

00:46:00

think

00:46:01

um I think the honesty that it creates

00:46:03

in a relationship is really healthy yeah

00:46:05

and I think especially for males because

00:46:07

often I have some beautiful

00:46:09

relationships with some really close

00:46:10

friends and it's not superficial it's

00:46:13

not a you know which I I also love our

00:46:16

superficial part of our relationship

00:46:17

because we're probably males you know we

00:46:19

love the banter and taking the piss and

00:46:21

that which I really enjoy but I've got

00:46:23

some really beautiful relationships

00:46:26

where my friends tell me they're not too

00:46:28

good you know and I think that's that's

00:46:31

cool and I have relationships where a

00:46:34

few see me and I know you and you ask me

00:46:36

how I am I'm going to tell you the truth

00:46:38

um

00:46:38

so you know and and some days I'll say

00:46:41

mate it's like I said who'd I say to

00:46:43

yesterday very very difficult to find

00:46:45

someone better than me at the moment

00:46:46

because I'm on fire but then I will tell

00:46:49

you a bit flat I'm a bit anxious or

00:46:51

whatever so some some days you just wake

00:46:53

up feeling [ __ ] for no reason

00:46:55

um I normally so so one of the one of

00:46:58

the things that we talk about and I talk

00:47:00

about and and being in your groove right

00:47:02

so when I'm in my groove how do I how do

00:47:05

I feel

00:47:06

and

00:47:07

and feel being in your groove is

00:47:09

actually feeling good and functioning

00:47:10

well right so when I'm in my groove

00:47:12

everything's going good at home I'm

00:47:15

really creative I'm really optimistic I

00:47:18

love the little things in life like I

00:47:19

laugh at some stupid stuff you know

00:47:22

um which is which is really really cool

00:47:24

so when I'm feeling like that I know

00:47:26

that I'm in my groove but I also talk

00:47:29

about my AAA Battery right so when my

00:47:31

battery is low I do three things which I

00:47:34

didn't do for a long long time which is

00:47:36

really important so my triple Bay a

00:47:37

battery is be aware

00:47:40

acknowledge and then act right so when

00:47:44

I'm feeling

00:47:45

flat sometimes I'll go okay I'm feeling

00:47:49

flat so I'm aware I'll acknowledge why

00:47:52

so three weeks ago I was really anxious

00:47:55

not feeling great it was a Monday and

00:47:57

then when I had a look at my life I

00:47:59

thought you've been breaking some of

00:48:00

your own rules JK you know you haven't

00:48:02

had a day off you've been doing this

00:48:03

doing that you know you've probably been

00:48:05

drinking a bit too much like you're

00:48:07

breaking your own rules so aware then I

00:48:10

acknowledged it and then I acted on it

00:48:12

and I and I said right I took a day out

00:48:14

of my week canceled some stuff

00:48:17

and went to the beach for three days and

00:48:20

just really reassessed where I was so I

00:48:23

don't let those sometimes I just feel

00:48:25

flat and I might be tired might not have

00:48:27

slept well I might have had too much

00:48:28

coffee yesterday those things are just

00:48:30

life but if I feel myself getting

00:48:32

anxious and some of my sharks are

00:48:34

turning Then I then I take a bit of a

00:48:35

triple a battery look at it and reassess

00:48:38

very quickly so I don't let that go

00:48:40

unfortunately I find a lot of people

00:48:42

just carry on you know

00:48:47

you know

00:48:50

and I just think that's really unhealthy

00:48:51

yeah

00:48:52

so the sharks are still there but you

00:48:54

know when they're getting close yeah no

00:48:56

I mean

00:48:57

I mean it's an interesting story it's

00:48:58

another story about um Dr Louise

00:49:00

Armstrong so when early in the piece

00:49:02

when I accepted my illness

00:49:04

she said okay well

00:49:06

what do you want to do I still want to

00:49:07

be great at it

00:49:08

so I'm going to be great at this illness

00:49:11

um and look I love being blissfully

00:49:13

average right so it's really cool

00:49:16

what do you mean what the hell have you

00:49:19

ever been blissfully average at I'm

00:49:21

blissfully yeah it's a guitar and

00:49:23

surfing okay and I think it's okay yeah

00:49:27

like I was talking to someone the other

00:49:29

day and they said um you know I just did

00:49:31

a marathon cool you know I took them for

00:49:34

whatever and and they said I was

00:49:37

blissfully average that's okay in some

00:49:40

of the things in your life yes right and

00:49:42

so I went to her and I was on my own how

00:49:45

would you look like to learn how to

00:49:48

um do self-hypnosis man this is the 80s

00:49:51

bro like if you did Jaeger you had dope

00:49:53

smoking so none of this funny

00:49:55

alternative [ __ ] back then this is one

00:49:57

of the Stars

00:49:59

exactly yoga you're kidding yourself

00:50:01

you're happy but anyway I I went and did

00:50:04

it and she said what do you love doing

00:50:05

and I said I love surfing she said okay

00:50:07

well in your mind

00:50:09

so we did this breathing exercises and

00:50:11

we did this thing with my arm and in my

00:50:12

mind I put on board shorts ran down the

00:50:14

beach without the water

00:50:16

paddled out two to three foot Perfection

00:50:18

surfed really well

00:50:19

and then when she brought me out of it

00:50:21

depression and anxiety offers this

00:50:24

heaviness on my head it's cloud and

00:50:27

um

00:50:27

that was gone so I went home and said to

00:50:29

my wife

00:50:30

was my girlfriend back then I'm going to

00:50:31

do that so I go upstairs a bit early do

00:50:33

the same you know do the breathing put

00:50:35

the bottles on run down feel the water

00:50:36

feels great paddle out two to three foot

00:50:39

Perfection four sharks in the water shut

00:50:41

myself and go down right and I go back

00:50:44

to the actual sharks well not the sharks

00:50:46

in your mind have you ever been yeah

00:50:48

have you ever been in the

00:50:50

water with a shark [ __ ] no yeah well you

00:50:53

can imagine yeah so I couldn't explain

00:50:55

what was going on on my head yeah there

00:50:57

was this fear

00:50:58

it's Fierce circling me that felt like

00:51:00

sharks in my mind so I called them my

00:51:02

sharks now I know I could explain back

00:51:03

to the psychiatrist was

00:51:05

there were sharks in my water she said

00:51:07

JK they're your sharks

00:51:10

um you have to get them smaller get the

00:51:11

teeth out of them and get them out of

00:51:14

your mind and so

00:51:16

my first shark was a dumb shot

00:51:19

now this took a while by the way so I go

00:51:22

home thinking sharks my sharks what is

00:51:23

this [ __ ] about okay what's really

00:51:25

what's really driving some of this

00:51:28

Behavior

00:51:28

yeah my first one was a dumb shark you

00:51:30

know I left school at 15 never passed an

00:51:32

exam in my life got told I was dumb

00:51:35

um you know my mates told me I was dumb

00:51:37

my teachers told me I was Dumb and so I

00:51:39

felt dumb

00:51:41

where are you though

00:51:42

were you done with just school to school

00:51:45

dumb yeah that's right and but I felt I

00:51:47

was dumb right right because

00:51:49

um Society tells you if you're

00:51:50

intelligent you pass these exams okay

00:51:52

right I never passed one so I'm dumb and

00:51:57

um that was my shock so what I did is I

00:52:00

thought okay I'm going to address this I

00:52:02

went back into the education system

00:52:04

that let me down or I let it down and

00:52:07

failed a game right but what I

00:52:10

what I do do now is I'm not

00:52:14

educated but I'm not done right but it

00:52:17

was a big shock you know then I had a

00:52:19

guilt shark I had an imposter syndrome

00:52:21

show

00:52:23

um you know and so I slowly dealt with

00:52:25

those with those sharks and now when I'm

00:52:29

getting

00:52:30

unwell

00:52:32

my sharks come back right where they

00:52:34

start when I start feeling what are you

00:52:36

doing jacket what are you talking to Dom

00:52:38

what are you doing a podcast for you

00:52:39

idiot like you dummy like you know I

00:52:43

know that I'm and it doesn't happen much

00:52:45

at all yeah yeah because I'm I'm always

00:52:47

right so you um there's there's no

00:52:50

reason for you ever to get I'm really

00:52:51

sick again because you're that

00:52:53

self-aware you've done that much work so

00:52:55

you know when when things are creeping

00:52:57

up on you yeah I'm not worried about it

00:52:59

yeah yeah I've taken the fear out of

00:53:01

I've taken the fear out of anxiety I

00:53:03

still have the anxiety attack you know

00:53:05

but instead of lasting a day it lasts

00:53:07

like 10 seconds yeah

00:53:09

um you know I had one the other night I

00:53:10

got a bit of you know

00:53:13

I'm actually going to see a specialist

00:53:14

today you know

00:53:15

and the other night I was lying in bed

00:53:17

my ears are ringing and I'm going

00:53:19

I started to get anxious about having to

00:53:22

live with us this could drive me insane

00:53:23

yeah yeah but then I just went don't

00:53:26

message okay you just need to

00:53:28

accept it and listen

00:53:30

because what I learned with my anxiety

00:53:32

the more I pushed it away the more it

00:53:34

had come forcing back into it of it

00:53:37

instead of actually accepting it and

00:53:39

sitting it on my knee so what I did the

00:53:41

other night was just a couple of my

00:53:42

techniques I just sat with it and just

00:53:45

thought it's going to be fine because if

00:53:46

you sit with it then you stop hearing it

00:53:48

so but I was really anxious for the

00:53:50

light my the the the the lockdown in

00:53:53

covert last year I just wasn't ready for

00:53:55

it for some dumb reason yeah and I

00:53:57

didn't have my support and experiment

00:53:58

and I was really really anxious for

00:54:01

three days until I went back to my

00:54:04

battery yeah why are you anxious what do

00:54:06

you need to do put the safety in it geez

00:54:08

that's some good takeaways I think that

00:54:10

things that anyone can Implement right

00:54:11

yeah of course you can because it's it's

00:54:13

just a daily Mental Health Plan like you

00:54:16

know I did some cognitive behavior

00:54:18

therapy and I was talking to Adam one of

00:54:20

my best mates the other day about it

00:54:21

about being anxious about mother

00:54:23

bringing in my ears but what happened

00:54:24

was I just call it rewiring your brain

00:54:27

my brain took over saying JK breathe

00:54:31

if you accept this you'll be fine you

00:54:34

know you've got you've booked the

00:54:35

specialist just relax and read a book

00:54:38

and that's what I did so that that's a

00:54:40

that's a series of things that you can

00:54:43

do when you're when you're anxious that

00:54:44

I had to learn

00:54:46

can we can we talk about a couple of

00:54:47

your sharks that you mentioned um first

00:54:49

of all

00:54:51

um The Imposter syndrome shark because

00:54:53

uh that's that's something I've had as

00:54:54

well and I I was on a podcast about a

00:54:56

month ago that you've been on as well

00:54:57

called between two beers and that they

00:54:59

asked me about it and the way I sort of

00:55:01

explained to them is like through my

00:55:03

through my radio career I said that it'd

00:55:05

be Peaks where it would go away like I'd

00:55:07

win an award and go away or someone

00:55:08

would try and poach me and I'd get a big

00:55:10

pay rise and would go away temporarily

00:55:11

I'd have these like Spike validations

00:55:14

and it would go away but in some ways I

00:55:16

look back on my uh 30 odd years and

00:55:18

radio and I think it maybe it was like

00:55:20

helpful in a way because it just made me

00:55:21

like swim harder because I felt like I

00:55:23

needed to to keep up was that the same

00:55:25

with you in rugby oh totally I mean and

00:55:27

it's really interesting because a lot of

00:55:29

successful people have an imposter

00:55:31

syndrome and like I say

00:55:34

um if you want to win an Olympic race

00:55:36

swimming

00:55:37

get chased by a shark

00:55:39

you're gonna you're gonna get that

00:55:42

record time but the shark is going to

00:55:44

eat you yeah the shark is going to win

00:55:45

that race right you know what I'm saying

00:55:47

so yeah the trouble is with giving up my

00:55:49

imposter shark was it made me who I was

00:55:52

it made me I did that good totally yeah

00:55:55

because I'm coming off the field

00:55:56

thinking I'm gonna get dropped on Monday

00:55:58

right

00:55:59

I'm not good enough when are they going

00:56:01

to find out I'm not good enough when

00:56:02

they're going to find out I'm just lucky

00:56:04

but the trouble is that often our brain

00:56:05

will lie to us you were amazing on radio

00:56:09

because you had a talent for it you did

00:56:12

the hard work right whatever that three

00:56:15

or four things where but you don't

00:56:17

listen to that all the time you go [ __ ]

00:56:20

but then you get addicted to

00:56:23

the shark because it actually drives you

00:56:26

because you've won that award and then a

00:56:28

week later think uh [ __ ] you know

00:56:30

I'm not any good anymore and you just

00:56:33

keep driving yeah and I think the

00:56:35

hardest thing when you're an imposter

00:56:37

syndrome is part of your success is

00:56:41

really identifying why you've been

00:56:43

successful and really embracing that and

00:56:47

um part of that for me was

00:56:50

um you know I I talk about my sister

00:56:53

Rings me and says g'day little bro how

00:56:55

is it fantastic how are you great why

00:56:58

are you so good I've just looked in the

00:57:00

mirror are you vain

00:57:03

but there's a part in imposter syndrome

00:57:06

that we actually never good enough and

00:57:08

we don't actually love ourselves and

00:57:10

look at the achievement that we've done

00:57:12

now

00:57:14

what happens is you get addicted to the

00:57:16

Imposter because that's driving you to

00:57:18

to keep getting better yeah so how do

00:57:21

you replace that and I think that was

00:57:23

one of the biggest things how do I

00:57:25

replace the shark

00:57:28

um but keep getting motivated and keep

00:57:30

driving and you're probably doing that

00:57:31

now you know you've given it all away

00:57:34

and you've got this new motivation and

00:57:35

you're finding other things that make

00:57:38

you want to be the best that you can be

00:57:40

every single day and I think once you

00:57:42

flick that and once you get rid of the

00:57:44

shark you you keep that same things

00:57:46

that's made you

00:57:48

who you are and what you're great at

00:57:51

um but you get rid of some of that

00:57:52

stress that comes with it that that that

00:57:54

running that chasing and real

00:57:57

interesting you talk about

00:57:58

um drinking you know I say to people uh

00:58:00

drinking is not my problem stopping us

00:58:04

oh yeah I think I'm like you I I love my

00:58:06

wine so Reds in particular but are you

00:58:09

have you got a healthy relationship with

00:58:10

alcohol now like can you drink like an

00:58:12

Italian as in I have two with dinner and

00:58:14

then have finished with a with a coffee

00:58:16

um I'm that's my challenge right yeah

00:58:19

yeah whenever I first time I went to

00:58:20

Europe it's like um you have two over

00:58:22

dinner and then the waiter would say do

00:58:23

you want a coffee and I'm like no no no

00:58:25

yeah I remember having a party in my

00:58:28

Italian house one night

00:58:30

um and the first night a whole lot of

00:58:32

kiwi mates came to visit and um my

00:58:35

father-in-law came up the next day to me

00:58:37

said to me oh I'm sorry what went wrong

00:58:41

and I said what do you mean he said wow

00:58:43

was the wine off and I said why he said

00:58:46

there's 36 bottles outside

00:58:49

right

00:58:51

and there was 10 of us at dinner

00:58:53

all right and um just the right amount

00:58:55

yeah and the next night I had ten

00:58:58

Italians for dinner and there was five

00:59:00

bottles outside but also I think one

00:59:03

point like you come to my placement I'm

00:59:05

pouring you wine in Italy you pour your

00:59:07

own one right right but I'm I don't want

00:59:10

you talking about wine so my

00:59:12

relationship with with alcohol I have a

00:59:14

wine company wine importing business I

00:59:16

love my wine and my goal is to actually

00:59:18

you know enjoy it for what it is and I I

00:59:22

have some triggers now that I try and

00:59:25

listen to

00:59:26

um but also I was brought up as a binge

00:59:29

drinking kiwi so it's still associated

00:59:31

with relaxing and having a good time

00:59:33

which is wrong but you know that's the

00:59:36

that's the culture we're always brought

00:59:38

up in and so it is a challenge for me

00:59:41

yeah

00:59:44

um can we talk about the um the other

00:59:46

shark that you mentioned the dumb shark

00:59:47

and then maybe we'll get into some fun

00:59:49

stuff before we finish I know I know you

00:59:51

say yesterday's in the past and whatever

00:59:53

but

00:59:54

um it's been I mean it's been a hell of

00:59:55

a life like we're focused on the mental

00:59:57

health stuff but

00:59:58

um a lot of like younger people I guess

01:00:00

listen to this won't have an idea of

01:00:02

like just what a phenomenal career you

01:00:04

have so

01:00:06

um

01:00:08

absolutely not it lives on YouTube

01:00:10

forever so yeah I'm the dumb Shack so

01:00:13

you left school at 15 and you you worked

01:00:15

with your dad as a a Butchery Apprentice

01:00:18

um was that a big call uh I'm guessing

01:00:20

you were like a talented or promising

01:00:22

rugby player no not really not really no

01:00:25

I was I was half back at school yeah I

01:00:28

made the first 15. you know I played all

01:00:30

sports like you know I loved all sports

01:00:32

because I only went to school to eat my

01:00:34

lunch and play sports films about it

01:00:36

really

01:00:37

um so yeah I made the first 15 as a half

01:00:39

back and then you know school just

01:00:40

wasn't for me obviously and so so it was

01:00:43

either you know I was going to go and

01:00:44

get a trade it was either be a butcher

01:00:46

or or be a builder and I just decided to

01:00:50

follow in Dad's footsteps so became an

01:00:52

apprentice butcher yeah did your parents

01:00:54

I don't know if you've had this chat

01:00:56

with them but they were sort of think

01:00:57

okay he'll do The Butchery thing and

01:00:59

rugby was still amateur them but you'd

01:01:01

still keep playing rugby and you'd keep

01:01:02

excelling at that or yeah well I think

01:01:04

no not at all so I went to Marist

01:01:07

um you know just went into the fifth

01:01:09

grade and

01:01:11

um you know I changed from Pete sneddon

01:01:15

who was my coach at the time he changed

01:01:17

me from half back to Wing I said I think

01:01:19

he'd be a really good Winger and so in

01:01:21

the fifth grade he changed me to the

01:01:22

wing and I really enjoyed it and I had

01:01:25

no Ambitions rugby was amateur rugby was

01:01:28

something that you did Tuesday Thursday

01:01:30

and Saturday right and even even at the

01:01:33

top level we're talking about then yeah

01:01:35

totally yeah yeah so I mean I was very

01:01:37

lucky I made the Auckland team when I

01:01:39

was 18.

01:01:40

um and we trained for Ma first on

01:01:43

Tuesday and Thursday and then you played

01:01:45

for you trained for Auckland on Monday

01:01:46

Wednesday

01:01:48

so and then we played on so I mean I

01:01:50

played a test match one of my first test

01:01:52

matches against France and came home and

01:01:54

played for Marist on Sunday

01:01:55

at uh in park number three so we were

01:01:58

totally amateurs I mean I I was not paid

01:02:01

to pay I was never a professional

01:02:04

rugby player in New Zealand ever I got

01:02:06

first got paid at the age of 29 when I

01:02:09

went to the Warriors right and then I

01:02:10

got paid for my last three years in

01:02:12

Japan as a professional so what did you

01:02:14

what did you get through your all black

01:02:16

years were you did you get like like per

01:02:17

dams like a daily yeah so I was players

01:02:20

committee

01:02:21

um towards the end of my career so when

01:02:23

I started it was 15 a day and pay for

01:02:25

your laundry

01:02:26

I was gonna ship money even back then

01:02:28

yeah and by the time I finished it was

01:02:32

55 a day and we're all trying to make

01:02:35

money you know around you know the game

01:02:38

was unsustainable in its current state

01:02:41

if you wanted to be best in the world so

01:02:44

by the end

01:02:45

um you know 94 when I finished rugby

01:02:48

went professional in 95 you know we were

01:02:50

we were getting money from Lion Nathan

01:02:53

or DB or whoever we could you know

01:02:57

um and so the game needed to go pro so

01:03:00

I'd go to Italy um 1989 you know I made

01:03:02

sixty thousand dollars and and that

01:03:05

might not sound a lot like a lot of

01:03:06

money to a lot of people but you could

01:03:07

buy a house in Mount Albert for 85. yeah

01:03:10

so wow yeah exactly and that was totally

01:03:13

illegal so you know Craig green and I we

01:03:16

often laugh about this he's over there

01:03:17

I'm catching up with him shortly my old

01:03:18

mate he's he's still in Italy he went

01:03:20

over after the World Cup in 87 and 88.

01:03:24

um and you know we'd drive across the

01:03:26

Swiss border and put money in a bank

01:03:28

account there

01:03:29

and then we'd send it to London and send

01:03:32

it home and if you declared it with the

01:03:33

with the government you were fine but if

01:03:36

rugby found out you'd be banned from the

01:03:38

game right so we had wow you just

01:03:41

weren't allowed to earn at all I know we

01:03:42

had to keep all that money yeah

01:03:44

um secret and one of the greatest things

01:03:46

I did after 89 is I brought I brought my

01:03:50

beach house or my Beach property with

01:03:52

that money because you had to spend it

01:03:53

straight away you know so um so the 1987

01:03:58

World Cup I I I wasn't I was never a

01:04:01

rugby player or anything but I was 14

01:04:02

years old at the time and you were as

01:04:04

big as big a star as what you could get

01:04:05

especially after this try you scored

01:04:07

against Italy you ran the length of the

01:04:08

field

01:04:09

um you must have got some like some some

01:04:11

money some commercial opportunities

01:04:13

after that some TV ads um yeah so it

01:04:17

um it was a really interesting time

01:04:18

because it was still amateur so we

01:04:19

weren't allowed to accept the money

01:04:22

um so it was all black money but right

01:04:24

yeah

01:04:26

um but I you know Andy Hayden May rest

01:04:28

in peace he was sort of the pioneer on

01:04:31

how to route the system of course he was

01:04:34

and make sure you got your money so I

01:04:37

think um

01:04:38

more so than 87 in 86 the Cavaliers tour

01:04:42

which I did not go on

01:04:44

um so that was to um a parad South

01:04:47

Africa yeah yourself and um David Kirk

01:04:49

did not go did not go no we did not go

01:04:52

um what was so for anyone for anyone

01:04:53

that can't remember that or has vague

01:04:55

memories of it what was the what was the

01:04:56

what was the controversy about it and

01:04:57

why did you decide not to go uh I was

01:04:59

the controversy is pretty easy because

01:05:02

South Africa was Apartheid yeah and

01:05:05

um the all black tour official all black

01:05:06

tour that I was available for because it

01:05:08

was official had been canceled

01:05:12

and so there was a Cavaliers tour

01:05:16

organized and

01:05:18

you know I decided that I wasn't going

01:05:21

to go if it wasn't an official

01:05:24

um so the plans that went was it like

01:05:25

it's a grade driven not really I I think

01:05:29

it's everyone has their own political

01:05:32

agenda and I you know

01:05:34

God or whoever you believe in will do

01:05:36

Judgment at the end of the day so some

01:05:37

people might have gone for the money

01:05:39

there was a decent amount of money

01:05:40

involved back in those days but some

01:05:43

people didn't think that Sports and

01:05:44

politics should mix and so it was

01:05:47

probably the worst time of my life to be

01:05:49

fair I had to grow up pretty quick I had

01:05:52

to stand up in front of my peers and

01:05:53

tell them I wasn't going and to be fair

01:05:55

to every single one of them they were

01:05:56

pretty good yeah about it

01:05:59

um so for me it was a it was a pretty

01:06:01

traumatic time but off the back of that

01:06:04

you know

01:06:06

the country was in real bad shape from a

01:06:09

rugby point of view the country was

01:06:10

divided

01:06:12

um the Cavaliers tour people it was the

01:06:15

first time it stopped being our national

01:06:16

game and people started thinking

01:06:18

stuff this so really difficult time but

01:06:22

then uh I actually started getting some

01:06:25

TV ads started to make a bit of money

01:06:28

outside the game right which which

01:06:30

really motivated me to try and continue

01:06:32

to be the best that I could be so back

01:06:35

then no one was professional and I

01:06:37

decided to get a personal trainer when

01:06:39

they went trendy and I decided that I

01:06:42

never I'd like to talk about imposter

01:06:44

shop I never thought I was good enough

01:06:45

so I thought how can I be better than

01:06:48

everyone else if I'm not good enough and

01:06:50

I thought that was through training

01:06:52

being as fit as I could and just being

01:06:54

an extra level from a physical point of

01:06:57

view and so that's that's what I that's

01:06:59

what I did in 1986

01:07:01

and then 87 came around and and

01:07:04

um you know I was probably in the best

01:07:07

form of my life with that combination

01:07:08

you know I'd matured enough at the test

01:07:10

Arena I've been going and training and

01:07:13

getting physically fit

01:07:16

um my my really good mate Pete young

01:07:18

hori who was my marriage training became

01:07:20

my personal trainer came around at six

01:07:22

a.m get me out of bed we did some really

01:07:23

interesting training through the trees

01:07:25

and it was just uh it was just a really

01:07:28

special

01:07:30

rugby timer Mars yeah through the trees

01:07:33

thing like I wanted to talk about that

01:07:34

because the the name of this podcast is

01:07:36

called Runners only believe it or not

01:07:37

and we haven't mentioned running at all

01:07:39

um but that try that I referenced just a

01:07:41

second ago in the 997 World Cup where

01:07:43

you basically ran the length of the

01:07:45

field through the Italian team how many

01:07:47

how many players did you pass like eight

01:07:49

I don't know I I don't know I keep

01:07:50

telling people I paid them they're all

01:07:52

my money and I'm still paying it was

01:07:55

like a length at the field try but you

01:07:57

you like trained for that moment by

01:07:58

running through like a forest yeah yeah

01:08:00

no if you go through Twin Oak Drive if

01:08:03

you're driving through Twin Oak drive

01:08:04

from the onion

01:08:06

um to the Epsom end if you go into the

01:08:09

trees to your left you'll find a row of

01:08:12

trees that has three trees and then a

01:08:15

gap and then another four trees and so I

01:08:17

ran through that

01:08:19

um at the uh so my dad once again I was

01:08:22

driving to work one morning and he said

01:08:24

I said I'm down I can't step and keep my

01:08:27

pace

01:08:28

he goes oh okay that's interesting

01:08:30

and he said

01:08:32

um oh okay so the next day he said in

01:08:34

the case said uh you want to fix that

01:08:36

step promise of you he said prepare to

01:08:39

pay the price I mean oh yeah okay so

01:08:43

about a week later he said to me on

01:08:44

Wednesday morning which was sausage

01:08:45

morning which was very difficult day if

01:08:47

you're a Apprentice butcher so you make

01:08:48

a couple hundred kilos of sausages and

01:08:50

he said take your boots so I take my

01:08:52

boots and and then after after lunch

01:08:56

Neville Denton comes in who was a maid

01:08:58

of my dad's and and they're standing

01:09:01

there and they're talking as if I'm not

01:09:02

there and Neville sister dad ah it's

01:09:04

just a boy yeah not much good eh there

01:09:07

goes no

01:09:08

[Laughter]

01:09:19

I'm just part of this conversation but

01:09:22

anyway he takes me up I do four four

01:09:24

hundreds then he takes me through the

01:09:25

trees and I can't do it I cannot do it

01:09:27

mate I step hit a tree like disgraceful

01:09:30

anyway we'll go back to work and um in

01:09:33

hindsight by the way would it have been

01:09:34

better if they were tackle bags or

01:09:36

something well no because a tackle bag

01:09:39

will actually fall over whereas the

01:09:41

trees are pretty good tackler you know

01:09:42

yeah you hit a tree at full Pace it's

01:09:45

gonna suppose that's the price you're

01:09:46

prepared to pay well no that's not the

01:09:48

price right oh yeah no so what happens

01:09:50

is I go back to work and you know Dad

01:09:52

says how's it going never goes no he's

01:09:54

no good I go back I go back every single

01:09:57

night it's like they thought you were

01:09:59

there exactly so I go back every single

01:10:01

night for like six months until I can

01:10:04

run through those trees at 100

01:10:07

um and that Italian try is actually for

01:10:10

me just trees I still see it now like if

01:10:13

I I know the angles even now that if I

01:10:16

run I know when I can step I know when

01:10:18

I'll hit the tree I know when I'm close

01:10:20

enough because the interesting thing for

01:10:21

me because I wasn't fast enough I needed

01:10:23

to leave you on the ground

01:10:25

when I beat you right because normally

01:10:28

you bring us back then we're way faster

01:10:29

okay

01:10:31

so anyway two weeks later it's sausage

01:10:33

day and Neville turns up with a wild pig

01:10:37

that's uh weighs 100 kilos

01:10:39

and

01:10:41

dad says to me

01:10:43

that's the price and you're not doing it

01:10:45

on my time so I had to break down the

01:10:47

peg make it into sausages and salami in

01:10:50

my lunch hour how long would that all

01:10:52

right so you get it done oh no probably

01:10:54

you know it probably took me it probably

01:10:56

took me two hours to do it yeah so yeah

01:10:59

but I wasn't allowed to do it on Dad's

01:11:01

time so I did on my lunch time and then

01:11:02

after work

01:11:07

hell yeah geez you're dead one

01:11:09

incredible man yeah

01:11:12

yeah yeah

01:11:14

um I I heard a story I don't know if

01:11:16

this is true or not um so you're 18

01:11:18

years old and John Hart wants you to

01:11:19

play for the Auckland B team and you're

01:11:21

dead yeah like negotiates to get you in

01:11:23

The A Team instead yeah yeah true story

01:11:26

so

01:11:27

um you know I played a game and and I

01:11:30

think John Graham May rest in peace he

01:11:33

was there and uh

01:11:34

anyway John Hart

01:11:36

contacted me and said like you'd like me

01:11:38

to come and meet with them so we're

01:11:39

butchers right so we still have those

01:11:42

elastic ties we even got 200 we've got

01:11:45

two two new ones man you know dad said

01:11:47

we better get dressed up we're going to

01:11:49

Fletcher Challenge and so I went to

01:11:51

Fletcher's and you know sixth floor and

01:11:53

we're we're there and and I'm 18 mate

01:11:56

like I'm totally out of my depth and I'm

01:11:59

thinking dad is as well you know we sit

01:12:01

in the reception and then in 60 so I'll

01:12:03

be with you in a minute and you know you

01:12:04

want a cup of tea and all that sort of

01:12:05

stuff which is I'm just shooting myself

01:12:06

you know walking and John Hart says to

01:12:09

my dad

01:12:10

um

01:12:11

you know I think your son's got some

01:12:13

real potential and I'd like him to pay

01:12:14

for Auckland bees on on Saturday in this

01:12:16

world 15 game that we're playing and I'm

01:12:19

going yes how good is that you know I'm

01:12:22

going to be playing for the Auckland

01:12:23

bees and dad said my son won't be

01:12:25

playing for the Beast and I go I'm

01:12:27

looking at him I'm going Dad this is

01:12:29

John Hart like he's walking coach like

01:12:31

what are you talking about

01:12:32

and dad said

01:12:34

um if he plays for the bees and he makes

01:12:36

a mistake he'll never be good enough if

01:12:38

he plays for the a side

01:12:40

and he makes a mistake it's just a

01:12:42

mistake

01:12:48

deal done

01:12:50

[ __ ] and there was the Auckland side was

01:12:53

a hell of a hell of a good top side at

01:12:54

that time yeah and then there must have

01:12:56

been intimidating as [ __ ] turning out

01:12:57

what how's this is another dad's story

01:12:59

so I am [ __ ] myself right I'm about

01:13:01

to go to my first training room all

01:13:03

right so you've got Andy Hayden uh Joe

01:13:06

Stanley uh Gary whetton

01:13:10

and uh I'm shooting myself sit down I'm

01:13:13

sure myself and he goes um

01:13:16

kilo ham kilo bunch and a kilosevelties

01:13:19

and I went what you want me to get an

01:13:21

order to get this [ __ ] cut me a killer

01:13:23

here cut me a kilo back okay uh lunch

01:13:25

and get a kilo so

01:13:28

I'm assuming myself there was a bit of

01:13:31

fill an order and so I fill the order

01:13:33

and I put it in HD

01:13:37

it said

01:13:39

take it to training and at the end of

01:13:40

training you open that up on the table

01:13:42

and they won't give a [ __ ] about whether

01:13:43

you train well or not they'll want you

01:13:45

back on Thursday that's so good

01:13:48

my train like [ __ ] obviously because I'm

01:13:51

so so nervous

01:13:52

they're getting a free thing yeah yeah

01:13:55

and um and I pulled it out after after

01:13:58

training and mate the boys just hoeing

01:14:00

into it you know I see you Thursday JK

01:14:02

but then after a month dad came to me

01:14:04

and said boy if you're not good enough

01:14:05

to start training without the ham

01:14:07

luncheon you can start I'm going to

01:14:09

start taking it out of your wages

01:14:11

how good is that yeah I'm guessing there

01:14:13

was no uh nutritionist back then as well

01:14:15

so lunch and after a session was

01:14:17

perfectly fine unbelievable unbelievable

01:14:19

and then um so then at the India rugby

01:14:21

you had a couple of um very successful

01:14:22

years in the Warriors you're like the

01:14:24

top try scorer one year yeah I had a

01:14:26

great I had a really great time I didn't

01:14:27

think I was that good at rugby league to

01:14:29

be fair

01:14:30

um but it was just this amazing time in

01:14:32

my life I um I was an amateur right

01:14:36

playing rugby union and trying to go to

01:14:38

Italy and make money and and I was

01:14:39

probably a little bit one I don't have

01:14:41

any regrets but one of the things that

01:14:43

happened later on in my career is I

01:14:44

probably should have changed position

01:14:45

you know I was getting a bit tired a bit

01:14:47

grumpy and I needed some extra

01:14:50

challenges and I was just coming out of

01:14:52

my mental health and you know there's

01:14:54

some things that I should have done that

01:14:55

I'd ever did but

01:14:57

um going to the Warriors was just this

01:14:59

new lease of life I just had an absolute

01:15:01

ball I trained as a professional got

01:15:03

paid as a professional and it was just

01:15:05

this great two years of my life

01:15:07

um can you remember what the money was

01:15:09

this was like 2005 2006 well I turned it

01:15:12

down the first time so it was 250 000.

01:15:15

back then which is a lot of money and I

01:15:18

said no especially a lot of money if you

01:15:20

haven't been earning much yeah exactly I

01:15:21

mean I had massive

01:15:22

message yeah 29 and

01:15:24

had my first kid and you know like so I

01:15:27

would have been finishing rugby with not

01:15:29

knowing what I was going to do and and

01:15:32

um I always remember I turned it down

01:15:33

and then every single night before I

01:15:36

went to sleep I'd say what if

01:15:38

what if what if I could make anything

01:15:40

and I remember back then

01:15:42

um Michael Jordan had gone from

01:15:44

basketball to softball baseball yeah

01:15:47

yeah and I read an article and he said

01:15:50

I don't want to have water for my life

01:15:52

and I was lying in bed that night and I

01:15:55

said to my wife I don't have water for

01:15:57

my life I don't care if I fail I'm going

01:15:58

to do this so I rang the back and I said

01:16:00

I'd love to have you JK but the price

01:16:02

has changed 150 Grand now all right oh

01:16:05

really yeah that delay cost you a handy

01:16:07

yeah it cost me a big handy but it

01:16:09

doesn't really matter at the time

01:16:10

because and then

01:16:16

and then it really opened up my my

01:16:20

um willingness to keep playing and then

01:16:22

I went to Japan as a rugby player for

01:16:24

three years which was just an amazing

01:16:27

time in my life you know I said I'd

01:16:29

never go I don't know why but I said you

01:16:32

know I'd never go and live in Japan

01:16:33

Never Say Never because it was

01:16:35

absolutely amazing I had this amazing

01:16:37

time and finished playing rugby 35. what

01:16:42

a career

01:16:43

it was a great fun man it was just

01:16:45

really really good

01:16:46

I feel very very fortunate and this is

01:16:49

this is one of the things I'm really

01:16:51

concerned about

01:16:52

you know and you're passionate about you

01:16:54

running

01:16:55

I'm really concerned that we are going

01:16:57

in our schools we're starting to have

01:16:59

academies of this and academies of

01:17:01

theirs and academies and kids are

01:17:03

failing at 13 if they don't make the

01:17:05

rugby Academy Soccer Academy or the

01:17:06

running team that is [ __ ] we should

01:17:08

be able to play anything because sport

01:17:10

is for life it's only three percent of

01:17:13

people who end up being a professional

01:17:15

rugby directly yeah but if you go to

01:17:17

London tomorrow and you join a rugby

01:17:18

club you'll have friends and a job

01:17:20

within two days you know as a runner I

01:17:23

bet you've gone to Madrid and ended up

01:17:25

running with a Spanish guy who you never

01:17:27

met before and had it made sense yeah

01:17:28

that's great that's great that's a great

01:17:30

Community yeah it's a sense of community

01:17:31

yeah

01:17:40

maintain as new zealanders you know it's

01:17:42

really interesting was it the was it the

01:17:46

um the was it Norway the team that won

01:17:48

the most

01:17:49

Winter Olympic Golds they don't let you

01:17:52

can play whatever you like to you're 18

01:17:54

and then you get

01:17:55

computer right and so I think New

01:17:56

Zealand needs to get back to saying that

01:17:58

sport whatever it is is a way of life

01:18:01

yeah it's a good way of looking at it I

01:18:03

mean um yeah I've never been a

01:18:05

particularly fast runner or anything but

01:18:06

I but I just love it and the um I know

01:18:09

it's running for me but I think the

01:18:10

mental health benefits that anyone can

01:18:12

get from any form of movement just you

01:18:14

know can't be underestimated it's

01:18:15

massive right well as part of my um part

01:18:18

of my sex pillars but the interesting

01:18:21

thing for me and this is when I talk

01:18:22

about

01:18:23

the amount of inputs we have into our

01:18:25

life right

01:18:27

so the pressure that's on our youngsters

01:18:30

so have you ever seen a fat bastard and

01:18:33

a photo on the wall of the

01:18:37

job no no everyone's perfect right yeah

01:18:39

absolutely you're right perfect that's

01:18:42

[ __ ] right so I I talk about the

01:18:46

most important thing about

01:18:48

whatever you do is you just move right

01:18:51

you love running I'm walking I go

01:18:54

surfing you know it's not about I say to

01:18:56

people I don't know what to eat I don't

01:18:58

know whether to be a eat the whole

01:18:59

garden eat a cow be who your Palio or

01:19:02

Julio I don't know anymore so effort

01:19:05

I'll just have a packet of chips and a

01:19:06

glass of wine yeah because we've got all

01:19:08

this information all the time yeah yeah

01:19:10

yeah right yeah but

01:19:12

um the most important thing for me is

01:19:13

that every single day I think nutrition

01:19:16

is really really important and you

01:19:18

should learn what's best for you and

01:19:21

then I think the other thing that's

01:19:22

really important is just to move if it's

01:19:23

running you know if it's walking if it's

01:19:26

surfing or whatever it is but moving

01:19:28

every single day is a mental health

01:19:30

exercise yeah for me hey I've taken up

01:19:34

so much of your time but I can't thank

01:19:35

you enough for sharing and I know that a

01:19:36

lot of people are going to get a lot of

01:19:37

good takeaways from this it's been

01:19:39

really good like you've you've done the

01:19:40

work and uh I I think I probably can

01:19:43

speak safely on behalf of most of New

01:19:45

Zealand when I can say thank you

01:19:47

um for everything you've done you you

01:19:49

were the first one that took the leap of

01:19:50

faith like you've you've paved the way

01:19:52

for any conversation I think that

01:19:55

happens in this country around mental

01:19:56

health these days you probably downplay

01:19:57

that but you really have yeah thank you

01:20:00

but I think back at you because

01:20:03

um you know I couldn't help but follow

01:20:05

your journey because you're in the

01:20:07

public eye you're a very successful you

01:20:10

know had a very public breakup but I

01:20:13

think both of you came out and spoke

01:20:14

about your mental health and that

01:20:16

journey and I think that that gives

01:20:18

everyone else the permission right um

01:20:20

and I think if we're in a situation of

01:20:25

um

01:20:26

I don't know what you'd call it we're

01:20:28

fortunate because of the ability that

01:20:30

God or whoever you want to believe gave

01:20:32

us we can use that platform to just tell

01:20:36

people it's normal because we're just

01:20:37

normal right you and I just normal yeah

01:20:38

yeah right so yeah thank you man for

01:20:41

carrying on the torch your turn

01:20:44

lastly before we head stop on this um

01:20:47

the next 20 years of your life what's

01:20:49

what's it looking like

01:20:50

much of a goal set or a planner no no

01:20:53

you see what comes your way yeah no I um

01:20:56

uh yeah I want to reach 100 million

01:20:58

people and save a hundred thousand lives

01:20:59

with the with with the business that I'm

01:21:02

in at the moment called Groove

01:21:03

um I think if we can make

01:21:05

well-being a successful business and

01:21:08

that workplaces realize that it's the

01:21:10

most important thing they do around

01:21:11

productivity and retention of good

01:21:12

people then we will definitely change

01:21:14

the world right because even the most

01:21:15

cynical [ __ ] as a leader knows that

01:21:18

has to look after them into half of

01:21:20

their people and then the second thing I

01:21:21

want to do is make sure that we educate

01:21:23

our tamariki to have a mental health

01:21:25

plan for what the world throws at them

01:21:27

and I think it's like English maths and

01:21:29

science we've got to teach our kids that

01:21:31

um but I don't think too far ahead I

01:21:33

just try and be the best meet today

01:21:36

um I the covert has been hard on me from

01:21:39

a from a

01:21:41

um I have half my life in Italy a lot of

01:21:43

great friends haven't seen my son

01:21:45

for a few years some really buoyant

01:21:48

about the World opening and being able

01:21:50

to to get out and and see the things

01:21:53

that I love to do but really I don't I

01:21:56

don't think too far ahead I think um a

01:21:59

friend once told me if you want to make

01:22:01

God laugh tell them your plans so so the

01:22:04

best thing for me is to be great today

01:22:06

I've got some got some goals that I'd

01:22:08

like to achieve but don't think too hard

01:22:10

about them yeah I'm brilliant well best

01:22:12

of luck with everything I'm sure it's

01:22:13

gonna work out just great like

01:22:14

everything else has in your life cool

01:22:16

and I've just released a nice Pinot Noir

01:22:18

that you might enjoy I made one for my

01:22:21

father-in-law he passed during covert

01:22:23

and I've released it today it's a Pinot

01:22:27

Noir I made in New Zealand but it's got

01:22:29

a lot of what I think Italian tastes

01:22:31

would be what sort of red do you like oh

01:22:33

I love my Pinos yeah okay I love my

01:22:35

Pinos but then again even the heavy ones

01:22:38

I'll never turn down a Malbec or a yeah

01:22:43

never met a red I didn't like there you

01:22:45

go I'll get you a bottle thanks JK

01:22:47

really appreciate everything you do and

01:22:49

have done pleasure thank you

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Episode Highlights

Defining Success
A poignant discussion on what true success means beyond material wealth.
“How many bastards want to carry you out when you die?”
@ 02m 28s
October 27, 2022
A Pivotal Moment
A near-suicidal moment that sparked a journey towards healing and self-discovery.
“I was going to run and jump out.”
@ 07m 10s
October 27, 2022
The Importance of Mental Health Plans
Daily mental health plans can improve overall well-being and relationships. 'I’m a better husband, better father, better work mate.'
“I have a daily mental health plan that I put first.”
@ 20m 25s
October 27, 2022
Mindfulness and Routine
Finding joy in simple moments can be transformative. 'For the first time in my life, I felt the water.'
“Mindfulness is just being in the present and enjoying the moment.”
@ 22m 02s
October 27, 2022
Breaking the Stigma
Discussing mental health openly can help others. 'If you could help one person not to live that hell, would it be worth it?'
“If you could help one person not to live that hell, would it be worth it?”
@ 35m 49s
October 27, 2022
Mental Health Awareness
A discussion on the rising suicide rates and the need for change in mental health awareness.
“Our suicide rates are going the wrong way.”
@ 38m 04s
October 27, 2022
The Importance of Sharing
Sharing mental health struggles can lighten the load and build community support.
“Your mental health is to do what you want to do with it.”
@ 45m 23s
October 27, 2022
Managing Anxiety
The speaker discusses techniques for managing anxiety and the importance of self-awareness.
“Be aware, acknowledge, and then act.”
@ 47m 37s
October 27, 2022
Imposter Syndrome and Motivation
Successful people often face imposter syndrome, which can drive them to excel.
“You get addicted to the shark because it actually drives you.”
@ 56m 23s
October 27, 2022
The Price of Success
Training hard and facing fears is essential to achieving greatness in sports.
“You have to prepare to pay the price.”
@ 01h 08m 39s
October 27, 2022
A Father's Wisdom
A father's advice led to a pivotal moment in a young athlete's career.
“If he plays for the bees and he makes a mistake, he’ll never be good enough.”
@ 01h 12m 34s
October 27, 2022
The Importance of Movement
Movement is crucial for mental health, regardless of the form it takes.
“The most important thing is you just move.”
@ 01h 19m 13s
October 27, 2022

Episode Quotes

I was going to run and jump out.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey
You can start again.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey
We've got to stop pushing people off the cliff.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey
The more I pushed it away, the more it forced back.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey
You get addicted to the shark because it actually drives you.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey
I don’t want to have water for my life.
Sir John Kirwin talks about hitting the trees! Training secrets | Runners Only! with Dom Harvey

Key Moments

Mental Health Struggles06:40
Pushing People37:06
Mental Health Curriculum38:50
Anxiety Management47:37
Imposter Syndrome55:31
Chasing Sharks55:36
Free Thing1:13:52
Career Reflections1:14:21

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

A truly inspiring chat with Dai Henwood || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

March 05, 2023

01:40:14

A truly inspiring chat with Dai Henwood || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Chanel Harris-Tavita on why he turned his back on pro sport || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 25, 2022

01:06:46

Chanel Harris-Tavita on why he turned his back on pro sport || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Jeremy Wells shares when he considered suicide || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 15, 2022

01:01:41

Jeremy Wells shares when he considered suicide || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Rich Farrell || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

April 06, 2023

01:01:57

Rich Farrell || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Dave Wood: The Man Elite Athletes Call When Everything Falls Apart

May 28, 2025

02:07:15

Dave Wood: The Man Elite Athletes Call When Everything Falls Apart

Cam Calkoen talks about the letter that changed his life || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 17, 2022

01:01:10

Cam Calkoen talks about the letter that changed his life || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Mitch James discusses mental health and suicide || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

April 04, 2022

01:15:54

Mitch James discusses mental health and suicide || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Rhys Darby on how to keep mental health in good shape || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 25, 2022

01:14:54

Rhys Darby on how to keep mental health in good shape || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Eric Murray kidnapped a swan (true story) || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

November 10, 2022

01:14:53

Eric Murray kidnapped a swan (true story) || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Rachel Maia || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

January 08, 2023

01:13:04

Rachel Maia || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Zac Guildford former All Black released from home detention || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

December 23, 2022

57:32

Zac Guildford former All Black released from home detention || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Ian Winson || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

December 25, 2022

57:12

Ian Winson || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey