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[Music]
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We're here on the Celsius Galway in
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Sabine Pass uh just outside of Bowmont,
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Texas with the Secretary of the
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Interior, Doug Bergam. The crew is
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giving us a tour. This is an amazing
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export facility, the largest in the
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United States, second largest in the
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world. We're going to talk with the
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secretary in a minute about American
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energy independence and the role that
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this company, this facility, and this
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process plays. So excited to have the
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conversation with the secretary.
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[Music]
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[Applause]
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[Music]
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What' you think? Well, I he was
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fantastic, but to be on a brand new ship
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like this is pretty special. I mean,
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like brand spanking like this is the
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first cargo it's taking. This is like
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this is like not even out of the
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showroom. Brand new. Yeah. I mean, look
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at that. Those are spotless. Yeah, this
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was definitely coordinated for you. I
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have a suspicion. But it's beautiful. I
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think they coordinated for you. They
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heard you were coming, Doug. They were
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saying in 2008, this facility was
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basically bankrupt. Yes. And this has
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been a development project since about
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2012 and it went from practically
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nothing to the largest LNG exporter in
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the world in 13 years. In 13 years. And
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prior to that, when it was originally
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built, because this is before the
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amazing miracle of the of the whole
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shale revolution in our country, right?
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without that this was being built as a
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LG import facility. That was the
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original thing. We're going to have to
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import LG to America. Now LG is the
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number two dollar export on the alltime
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list for the country. It's the second
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most highest dollar value we export. We
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went from from being like, oh, we're
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going to run out of oil and gas to today
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uh we're energy independent on a net
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basis and we're on our path towards
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becoming energy dominant. I'm going all
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in. All right, besties. I think that was
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another epic discussion. People love the
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interviews. I could hear him talk for
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hours. Absolutely. We crushed your
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questions in a minute. We are giving
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people ground truth data to underwrite
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your own opinion. What do you guys
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think? That was fun. That was great.
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Welcome to the all-in interview here
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today with Secretary Doug Bergam, the
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55th Secretary of the Interior of the
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United States of America. We are here in
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beautiful Sabine Pass in Louisiana today
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at the Shener LNG facility. It's been an
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amazing tour this afternoon. It's a
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little bit windy, but it's still a
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beautiful afternoon. Thanks for joining
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me today, Doug. David, it's great to be
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with you. Thank you for coming down and
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uh seeing this amazing facility. So, we
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just took a great tour here. Why were
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you here today? And what are we checking
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out? Well, I think President Trump, one
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of his core goals, if we talk about
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energy dominance, which is beyond energy
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independence, it's not just a a slogan.
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It's really about how do we have the
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power to power AI in America? How do we
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power the remanufacturing in America?
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And then how do we sell energy to our
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friends and allies so that they don't
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have to buy it from our adversaries. And
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what what we you and I had a chance to
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see today is the largest LG export
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facility in America, the second largest
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in the world. Yeah. I was struck. I
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didn't really realize how quickly this
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facility grew up just about a dozen
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years ago. There was nothing really
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going on here. And now it's the second
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largest export facility of methane in
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the world. And methane is seeing a a
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massive resurgence around the world
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because it has a lower carbon footprint.
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There's demand. It's transportable. So
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there's a lot of reasons why there's a
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massive growing market for for liqufied
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natural gas or methane. Absolutely. And
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part of the amazing energy
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transformation that I think is not fully
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appreciated by most Americans is when
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this plant began uh in the early 2000s,
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it was meant to be an LNG import
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facility. America was running out of oil
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and gas and they said, "Wait, we got to
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be ready to start importing it just to
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meet our needs." Well, along comes the
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shale gas revolution again driven by
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technology. That technology of
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horizontal drilling, that ability to,
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you know, fractionate rock uh and get
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oil and gas out of places that people
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thought was just impossible that we
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would ever be retrieving uh that those
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resources from those from those hard
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rock shale locations. And so then this
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thing after the financial crisis turned
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around and began its life as an export
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facility and now as you say the only one
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larger in the world is in the Middle
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East. So I I want to go back a little
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bit and how you ended up in the seat,
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how you ended up um not just being the
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secretary of the interior but you're
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also the chair of the National Energy
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Dominance Council. I really want to talk
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about the importance I talk about on the
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podcast a lot about the importance of
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growing energy production in this
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country. But you're a tech entrepreneur
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who is from North Dakota, became
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governor of the state, and I'd love for
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you to just do your highlights, how you
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ended up there, what you did with
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respect to energy, um, and also how that
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translated into a surplus of jobs and
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economic prosperity for that state. It's
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been quite a journey. uh you know
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starting out in a town of 300 people in
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North Dakota with all gravel streets and
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no computers uh to end up having an
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opportunity to uh to be part of a
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software startup you know grow that
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business take it public have a great run
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as a public company get acquired in an
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all stock deal by Microsoft stayed there
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for seven years uh you know helping grow
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Microsoft from 40,000 people to to
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90,000 people and there was 2,000 of us
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at great plains when we got acquired
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there was 1,200 in Fargo 400 rest in
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North America, 400 rest of the world, we
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become a this improbable global software
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company uh coming from the from the
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great plains. And then when I left
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Microsoft to uh uh presumably spend more
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time with kids, retire uh that was an
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epic fail. Ended up in uh two more
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startups within six months. Uh was
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involved in three more software IPOs and
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dozens of other uh businesses and I mean
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software businesses. And then uh in 2016
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at a time when we were having an energy
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collapse in prices uh there was an open
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seat for governor and I threw my hat in
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the ring and uh we were uh down at 6910
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in the polls in January. The primary was
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in June. Uh Katherine was who became the
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first lady was like, "Oh, we've got a
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great life. Let's why would we why would
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we get into politics? Why would we get
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into that?" And I assured her that we
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had no chance of winning and she didn't
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have to ever worry about being first
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lady. but this would be fun for six
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months to create some competition. But
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we ended up winning that primary and and
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then went on uh got it was a good year
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for outsiders. So we took office the uh
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about in North Dakota you start middle
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of December. So about 36 days ahead of
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President Trump we were sworn in had
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four amazing years uh working with
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President Trump as a governor. There was
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a win behind our back and then second
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term uh we got reelected by the largest
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margin in the country of any race. But
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then that was I was serving as a
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governor under the Biden administration
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and in a state where we'd become we're
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rapidly becoming a very ris resourcerich
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state. Uh we had climbed to being the
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number two oil producer in the country.
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Uh we had you know tremendous coal
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resources, incredible agriculture
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resources and in ranching and the Biden
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administration really was having a war
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on on on whether it was timber grazing,
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oil and gas, coal, critical minerals. I
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mean anything that had to do with
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extraction uh there was a regulatory
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battle going on and and I and I would
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have to say that a part of me uh not
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just became frustrated I became very
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concerned about the future of the
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country and that led to you know jumping
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at the national level and saying hey
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we've got to have a policy uh because if
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we don't if we don't have energy
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security we're not going to have
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national security and that's what really
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uh drove the to sort of this us sitting
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here right now today. So, you ran for
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president. You ran for the Republican
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nomination against President Trump and
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others. And then, um, obviously,
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President Trump got that nomination. Did
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you keep in touch with him after that?
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And how did you kind of work with his
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staff and his office as he was moving
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his campaign forward? Well, we were we
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were in touch uh because we you know we
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knew each other as a governor would know
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a president, but I was never really
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running against President Trump. And I
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think the record shows that I was really
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running against these horrifically
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dangerous uh and uh you know unsound,
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unsafe uh policies of the Biden
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administration, which are almost, you
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know, too numerous to enumerate. When I
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left office last December 15th, just
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December 15th of of 2024, uh, as
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governor, I was involved in 30 lawsuits
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against the Biden administration. You
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know, many of them including against the
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agency the the agency that the bureaus
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that I'm now leading uh because the
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regulatory regime was such that it
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wasn't about regulating oil and gas. It
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was about eliminating oil and gas from
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America. and and and if there was some
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sort of false god around climate
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ideology that they were that was being
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chased, it was like, "Oh, if we stop the
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supply coming from the US, we're going
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to somehow save the planet." But there
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was no reduction of demand. The demand
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was just being filled by by, you know,
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Iran, Venezuela, Russia, and they and
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they were funding wars against us. So, I
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mean, I thought it was closest thing to
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insanity that I'd ever seen. And so when
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uh when we when we dropped out uh very
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quickly uh I was the first of any of the
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other candidates to endorse President
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Trump uh and uh and then spent last year
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campaigning for him. Yeah. And then
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there was, can I say this, some rumors
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that you might have been in the running
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for vice president, but you obviously
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stayed close with the the president and
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and his staff and found your way into
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this role. How did that process go for
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you? How did you end up in this role
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that you're Well, I it's a I love what
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I'm doing and I love the role. Uh
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because of course as a western uh
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western governor uh we have all the
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things that interior has as governor of
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North Dakota which is a jam-packed fun
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job. Uh you've got you're chairman of
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the land board and just being governor.
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Well then meant you know dealing with
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land and minerals and all the leasing
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and all the issues with the energy
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industry. You're also the uh head of the
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water commission. Uh interior has the
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bureau of reclamation which is the
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second largest hydroelect electric
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producer in the country and manages you
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know the miracle of irrigation that the
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Roosevelt came up with. We wouldn't have
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agriculture in Arizona or California
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without that. Uh and then Bureau of
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Indian Affairs is part of Interior. Uh
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and that's a uh something I had a lot of
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experience with and all the challenges
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that we face in terms of healthcare and
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education on the tribal areas. So across
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the whole realm of
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interior everything that I had in North
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Dakota is part of my job today except
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one thing uh and that's offshore oil
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production because uh North Dakota as
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you would know is the center of North
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America. So if you're afraid of sharks,
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you should move to North Dakota because
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it literally is the furthest place in
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North America from any ocean. So we had
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no offshore, but uh today earlier today,
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I had a chance to get on my first
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offshore platform and and uh and see uh
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the innovation and entrepreneurship
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there that's uh again now providing
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about 16% of the uh oil for the America.
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So I mean let's talk about the energy
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problem, the energy opportunity. Before
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we do, I think 50% of the potential
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audience of this
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conversation cue out and say this is
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evil. There's good and there's bad. This
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is bad. Exploitation of natural
00:11:16
resources. Extraction of natural
00:11:19
resources damages the planet, ruins the
00:11:22
environment, puts carbon in the
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atmosphere, drives climate change. and
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they won't listen to any conversation
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about the pragmatism of energy security
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and the importance energy plays in
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prosperity. Taking people out of
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poverty, raising them up, raising living
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standards and giving access to things
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around the world that every individual
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wants, which is more prosperity. And one
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statistic I always quote is that if you
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go back 500 plus years, you can see and
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there's all these studies that have
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tried to understand energy production
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versus GDP, which translates to
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prosperity per capita. And there's a
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linear relationship. The more energy
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that's produced, the higher the GDP per
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capita. And that's what we see around
00:12:02
the world in developing markets today.
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So I guess maybe you could just take a
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moment to talk to those folks. Share a
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little bit about your perspective of the
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relationship between taking care of the
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environment and the planet and the
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importance of energy demand and energy
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security before we get into the things
00:12:20
that are going on. Well, I I think
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you're uh you're spot on. I mean, human
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flourishing depends on on everyone. And
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I think if you're talking about access
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for everyone, uh you just take a look. I
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mean, we have we could have as many as
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800 million people on the planet uh you
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know, shy of a billion uh that don't
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have access to electricity and they they
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need more energy. Now, with AI coming,
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the demand for power is going to go up.
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Uh the demand for advanced
00:12:44
manufacturing. So, we're not in any kind
00:12:46
of energy transition. We're in an area
00:12:48
where we need energy addition. And if we
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want human flourishing, if we want to
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reach our planet's fullest potential and
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if we want to take care of our
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environment, which you we can do all
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these things at the same time, that even
00:13:00
that requires uh requires energy. I
00:13:02
mean, if you if you if you're worried
00:13:04
about, you know, water sources, well,
00:13:06
desalination, which we can do, requires
00:13:08
a lot of energy. Uh you know,
00:13:10
transportation of goods requires energy.
00:13:12
Uh so whether you know it's the the
00:13:14
clothes on your back, the food on your
00:13:15
table, the the transportation drive,
00:13:17
there's an energy component to all of
00:13:19
that. and electrifying stuff doesn't
00:13:21
change. It just changes the source of
00:13:22
the we still need to create the
00:13:24
electricity. So I feel like that if
00:13:26
anybody is concerned about the
00:13:27
environment, they should want to have it
00:13:30
every ounce of a liquid fuel and every
00:13:33
electron produced in the United States
00:13:35
because if you compare us to any other
00:13:37
any other country, we produce it
00:13:39
cleaner, safer, smarter, and healthier
00:13:41
than anyone else. that I learned in
00:13:42
North Dakota over those eight years as
00:13:44
governor where we were always on the top
00:13:45
of the list of, you know, cleanest
00:13:47
water, cleanest air, best soil health,
00:13:50
all of these things that we were able to
00:13:51
achieve. And we were going up the charts
00:13:53
in terms of energy production. These
00:13:55
things go hand in hand. They're not it's
00:13:56
not either or. It's it's a plus when you
00:13:59
can do both. And we were just talking to
00:14:01
this crew on board uh the ship we just
00:14:03
visited. They're on their way to Taiwan
00:14:05
and they go to Japan. And so if we can
00:14:07
produce liquid methane in this country
00:14:09
with a lower carbon footprint, then that
00:14:12
methane might be produced elsewhere,
00:14:13
which is the case. We use we have
00:14:14
cleaner methods for production. And that
00:14:16
demand exists regardless of whether or
00:14:18
not the United States produces it. It's
00:14:20
important that the United States take
00:14:22
advantage of the opportunity to produce
00:14:24
it cleaner, more safely, and with a
00:14:26
lower footprint and and build economic
00:14:28
prosperity for us as exporters. Yes,
00:14:30
absolutely. I mean, so the the the net
00:14:33
formula that you've just described is
00:14:34
the more energy that's produced in the
00:14:36
United States, the better it is for the
00:14:38
globe and the better it is for American
00:14:39
prosperity. And I would say it's not
00:14:41
just for the globe environmentally. It's
00:14:42
also for for peace. It's not just
00:14:44
prosperity at home, but literally the
00:14:46
two the two proxy wars that we've been
00:14:49
involved in with Russia after Russia
00:14:50
invaded Ukraine and after uh you know
00:14:53
Iran funding 24 different terror groups,
00:14:56
they were funding those wars against us
00:14:58
with their oil and gas sales. And so if
00:15:00
if we can replace their customers with
00:15:02
US sources, they have less revenue. They
00:15:04
have less funding literally to fund
00:15:06
terrorism. So it is prosperity at home,
00:15:08
peace abroad, it's nothing short of
00:15:10
that. So let's talk about the energy
00:15:12
demand equation. The US is forecasted to
00:15:15
increase its electricity production
00:15:16
capacity from 1 to 2 terowatt by 2040 15
00:15:20
years from now. During that same period
00:15:22
of time, China is going to go from 3 to
00:15:24
8 terowatt. And that China forecast, by
00:15:27
the way, excludes any of the Gen 4
00:15:29
nuclear reactors, the new hydroelectric
00:15:30
facilities, and the new thorium, or if
00:15:32
that ever scales that they're
00:15:34
considering rolling out in addition to
00:15:36
what they've already planned to roll
00:15:37
out. So, in the next 15 years, China is
00:15:39
adding five Americas. Yes. In
00:15:41
electricity, production capacity. And if
00:15:44
everything gets automated, factories are
00:15:46
automated, AI becomes the great
00:15:48
accelerant of the global economy, China
00:15:51
is hugely advantaged relative to where
00:15:52
we sit today. What do we need to do
00:15:55
about it? Well, this is the if you were
00:15:57
to ask me what's the thing that keeps me
00:15:58
awake at night. Uh this is this is the
00:16:01
issue and it's so thrilling and
00:16:04
refreshing that you understand the
00:16:06
scale, the magnitude and the importance
00:16:08
of this uh the AI arms race which is
00:16:10
really driven by access to electricity.
00:16:13
And China last year brought on 94 and a
00:16:16
half gigawatts of coal powered
00:16:19
electricity. One gawatt is Denver. So
00:16:21
they brought on 94 Denvers just last
00:16:23
year. That's more than all we have today
00:16:26
for all of California and all of New
00:16:27
York is less than 94. So they added a
00:16:30
New York and a California worth of
00:16:31
electricity last year just from coal.
00:16:33
They're still getting 60% of their base
00:16:35
load from coal. And people people may
00:16:37
they stop listening when they hear the
00:16:38
word coal. But coal from an electricity
00:16:42
standpoint, thermal coal uh is fantastic
00:16:45
base load. uh it has, you know, all the
00:16:47
characteristics to allow you to maintain
00:16:49
amperage and voltage to keep a system
00:16:52
going. And I think we just saw in Spain,
00:16:54
you know, they were celebrating on April
00:16:55
12th of this past month that they'd shut
00:16:58
down their last coal plant. And then a
00:16:59
week after that, they were celebrating
00:17:01
the fact that they had their first day
00:17:03
of 100% renewables on their system. And
00:17:05
then the next week, uh they were global
00:17:07
news story because people were trapped
00:17:09
in subways. Uh all airline flights
00:17:11
canled. uh hospitals were panicking with
00:17:14
a lack of power uh because they had a uh
00:17:16
you know a rolling blackout and grid
00:17:18
failure because it just defies physics.
00:17:20
You can't run an electrical grid with
00:17:23
just intermittent power. You cannot run
00:17:25
with something that is based in
00:17:27
intermittent is the definition of solar
00:17:30
or wind because the sun doesn't shine at
00:17:32
night uh and the wind doesn't blow every
00:17:34
day and you can have have it and so we
00:17:36
in America we became dangerously close
00:17:38
to that right now. We've got parts of
00:17:40
our country that are at risk for those
00:17:42
same kind of of what I'll call the Biden
00:17:44
brownouts and blackouts to happen
00:17:46
because we overs subsidized the
00:17:48
intermittent and we overregulated uh all
00:17:51
of the base load in an idea to quote
00:17:53
save the planet and all we're doing is
00:17:55
potentially putting our own country at
00:17:56
risk. So it was regulatory action that's
00:17:59
been taken and I've got to imagine it's
00:18:01
not just the Biden administration. This
00:18:03
has to go back cuz this is in 35 years
00:18:05
in this country, we only
00:18:07
added6 terowatts of electricity
00:18:09
production capacity to the grid. What's
00:18:12
gone on in this country that's made it
00:18:13
so hard for us to operate more
00:18:15
efficiently in terms of adding new
00:18:17
energy capacity to the grid? Is it
00:18:19
regulatory only or are there capital,
00:18:22
social and other reasons that this has
00:18:23
become a challenge for us? Well, the the
00:18:25
regulatory uh attack was a whole of
00:18:28
government. So, it did attack the
00:18:29
formation of capital. I mean, you you
00:18:31
came up with regulatory rules that made
00:18:33
it impossible for for base load power uh
00:18:36
from fossil fuels even, you know, get a
00:18:38
permit. Well, if you can't get a permit,
00:18:40
then you can't get access to capital.
00:18:41
You can't get access to insurance. Uh
00:18:43
and then you had, you know, protest and
00:18:45
social media and everybody going online
00:18:47
saying, "Oh, we've got to exit from all
00:18:48
this." And this same phenomena happened
00:18:50
in Germany. Uh it's I think it's very
00:18:52
clear right now that a lot of that a lot
00:18:54
of what I call the social mediadriven uh
00:18:58
concerns were part of you know scops
00:19:00
operations from places like Russia. I
00:19:02
mean it was Russia's great advantage to
00:19:04
get Germany to shut down nuclear to shut
00:19:06
down all their coal production and hey
00:19:08
we have a solution just buy all your
00:19:10
natural gas from us. So Germany spent a
00:19:13
half a trillion dollars$500 billion
00:19:15
dollars on the quote air quotes
00:19:17
transition to to green energy. They were
00:19:20
transitioning to wind and solar. H half
00:19:23
a trillion, $500 billion. They today
00:19:25
produce 20% less electricity. And that
00:19:28
electricity cost three times as much as
00:19:30
it did before they began the transition.
00:19:32
And now we have the the war, you know,
00:19:34
with Russia inventing Ukraine. What are
00:19:36
they doing? They were scrambling to try
00:19:38
to reopen coal plants. They were
00:19:40
scrambling to try to get back in the
00:19:41
nuclear game. They were saying, "Wow, we
00:19:43
overshot the mark. We went too far." Uh
00:19:46
again, highly subsidizing uh
00:19:48
intermittent sources. And so it it's
00:19:50
like I think part of the awakening that
00:19:52
is occurring right now is that if the
00:19:54
the greatest existential threat to the
00:19:56
planet and to America is not one degree
00:19:59
of climate change in the year 2100
00:20:01
because guess what innovation will solve
00:20:03
will solve any challenges that we have
00:20:05
with climate change with innovation and
00:20:07
we won't have innovation without
00:20:08
electricity and actually losing the AI
00:20:10
arms race to China uh is the real
00:20:13
threat. I do agree with you. I'll be
00:20:14
declarative on this because a lot of
00:20:16
people ask me I started a company called
00:20:17
the climate corporation. We talked a lot
00:20:19
about climate change. I believe deeply
00:20:21
in a lot of this climate science, but I
00:20:24
also believe more deeply that innovation
00:20:26
will solve a lot of the challenges that
00:20:28
may arise. And there's a whole series of
00:20:30
solutions that are developing. And we
00:20:32
can talk a little bit about some of
00:20:33
those longerterm solutions that
00:20:35
ultimately yield to unlimited free
00:20:39
scalable energy production. And when
00:20:41
that happens, you know, all bets are
00:20:44
off. No. And some of that could and we
00:20:45
have line of sight to that. Yeah. And
00:20:46
some of that could be coming in the next
00:20:47
decade. It doesn't help us today cuz
00:20:50
today uh we've got to shore it up. And I
00:20:52
think one thing that you know having
00:20:53
spent 30 years in tech, we never used
00:20:55
more than 1% of the nation's electrical
00:20:57
production and it was because uh
00:21:00
computers were getting more tech. Yeah.
00:21:01
Tech the tech industry. Tech industry.
00:21:04
We used 1% and no one paid any attention
00:21:06
and the tech industry didn't pay any
00:21:08
attention to power generation because
00:21:09
they didn't have to because PCs got more
00:21:12
efficient, software got more efficient
00:21:14
and then America was rich. we everyone
00:21:15
was buying appliances that were more
00:21:17
efficient. So there was wasn't ever
00:21:19
really a demand curve on electricity.
00:21:21
But then today with AI, the demand curve
00:21:24
is just flying in the face. And when I
00:21:26
was at at uh Sarah Week, which is the
00:21:28
biggest uh energy conclave, uh when I
00:21:32
was speaking to the group, I said
00:21:33
there's something different here this
00:21:34
year. And what's different is the five
00:21:36
biggest tech companies in America showed
00:21:39
up at that conference with $300 billion
00:21:41
dollar of capex. you know, the big ones
00:21:44
have got 75 billion 75 billion a piece,
00:21:47
you know, for the top ones on that
00:21:49
chart. And and I'll reflect back to not
00:21:52
that long ago, a couple decades ago, I
00:21:54
was a corporate officer at Microsoft for
00:21:56
seven years. I never went to a capex
00:21:58
meeting, right? Somebody said, "Well,
00:22:00
weren't you invited?" I said, "No, there
00:22:01
were no capex meetings." You know, we
00:22:02
hired salespeople and software
00:22:04
developers, and if we needed an office
00:22:06
in Singapore or Munich, we rented it,
00:22:08
leased it, and so there was no capex.
00:22:10
And now they showed up at that
00:22:12
conference and I had to speak to all the
00:22:14
executives and said, "Look, these guys
00:22:15
aren't here trying to sell you software.
00:22:17
They're your biggest customers. They
00:22:19
need power and they will do anything."
00:22:21
And the regulated uh power providers and
00:22:23
some in the industry have just have
00:22:25
never seen a demand curve. So, it's like
00:22:27
a collision between high-tech and the
00:22:29
power generation in America. And and
00:22:31
coming from that, we've got to figure
00:22:32
out a way to break through this. We just
00:22:34
got back from DC. There was this hill
00:22:36
and valley forum this week. Every single
00:22:38
speech, every single talk, every
00:22:40
conversation in the hallways was all
00:22:42
about the energy demand coming from AI.
00:22:44
I don't think the public realizes, I
00:22:46
don't think the broad business community
00:22:48
realizes how energy hungry AI is and how
00:22:52
this is going to ramp up like no one's
00:22:54
ever seen in history. And by the way, we
00:22:56
haven't yet seen the ramp up of robotics
00:22:59
and automation. There's going to be a
00:23:00
breakthrough in the next year or two
00:23:02
that's going to unleash this additional
00:23:03
demand curve. We're going to have a
00:23:05
100red million robots in the United
00:23:06
States that are all electrified. They
00:23:08
all got to get charged up. That power
00:23:10
has got to come from somewhere. So,
00:23:13
this feels like a massive challenge for
00:23:16
America, like going to the moon,
00:23:18
fighting World War II in Europe, a
00:23:21
Manhattan Project style set of solutions
00:23:23
are needed to address this. What is this
00:23:27
council that you're leading, the
00:23:28
National Energy Dominance Council,
00:23:31
doing? What are kind of the top three
00:23:32
things that you think unlock the energy
00:23:35
potential in the United States and meet
00:23:37
the demand curve that's kind of tidal
00:23:40
waving its way across this country right
00:23:42
now? Well, I'd say that the the good
00:23:45
news is that we have a president of the
00:23:47
United States that understands this.
00:23:49
Yeah. And that's why on day one in
00:23:51
office, he declared an energy emergency.
00:23:53
some folks that aren't familiar with
00:23:56
what you've just described, uh, this
00:23:58
awareness that we've we're facing a
00:24:00
crisis, uh, were, you know, questioning
00:24:02
whether we had an energy emergency, but
00:24:05
as you've just described, we have a huge
00:24:06
one relative to our grid, grid
00:24:08
stability. We don't have enough power to
00:24:09
win the AI arms race. And AI arms race
00:24:12
means without that, we lose the defense
00:24:14
battle because it's not just robotics in
00:24:17
manufacturing. you know, if we're going
00:24:19
to have a golden dome, if we're going to
00:24:21
have any, you know, ability to defend
00:24:23
ourselves from hypersonics or, you know,
00:24:25
protect our fleet uh around the ocean,
00:24:27
not to have them all wiped out in the
00:24:29
first hour of a conflict, we have to
00:24:31
have AI uh both targeting and a defense
00:24:34
standpoint. So, you can't separate
00:24:36
defense from AI anymore either. So, this
00:24:38
is it's mission critical. So, with that
00:24:41
with that energy emergency, then we have
00:24:42
to pull out all stops. So, back to NE
00:24:44
DC. Uh, which by the way, for those that
00:24:47
are easy to remember, it's like AC/DC.
00:24:49
It's NEC. And then we could even have a
00:24:51
little lightning bolt in the logo. I
00:24:52
don't know if you're going to get there,
00:24:53
Doug, but but you know, t-shirt have
00:24:55
t-shirts with I actually might make that
00:24:57
t-shirt for you. I'll I mean, I think
00:24:59
it's You guys sell swag on this podcast.
00:25:01
I think that's going to be the new one.
00:25:03
Uh, new bestseller. Anyway, with with
00:25:05
the You could sell that swag. You know,
00:25:06
we could fund a new energy program.
00:25:08
Yeah, we go with with the but with our
00:25:11
We're not a organization. We're like a
00:25:13
small tiger team and think of it more
00:25:15
like a governor's economic development
00:25:18
super super team. President Trump is
00:25:20
asking us to find things that are
00:25:22
critical to the infrastructure where
00:25:24
they're running into roadblocks and then
00:25:25
help them. I want to say white glove
00:25:27
concier service. Help them get the
00:25:29
permit, help them get started. The
00:25:30
capital is there. It's often a
00:25:33
regulatory thing that's stopping uh you
00:25:35
know like natural gas getting into New
00:25:37
England. We've got I mean we're never
00:25:39
going to build an AI data center in New
00:25:41
York or in New England if the price of
00:25:43
natural gas is three times higher than
00:25:45
it is in Pennsylvania. And yet they're
00:25:47
still campaigning on, hey, we blocked
00:25:49
this natural gas pipeline. You know, I
00:25:51
mean, everybody in Pennsylvania loves
00:25:53
that because they'll get all the data
00:25:54
centers, they'll get all the advanced
00:25:55
manufacturing. I mean, we've got, you
00:25:57
know, in Arizona, you've got, you know,
00:25:59
the TSMC plant coming there that's going
00:26:02
to require enormous amounts of power. uh
00:26:04
people want to put data centers there
00:26:06
and yet you know their utility is just
00:26:08
shutting down a coal plant and it's like
00:26:10
okay how are you going to power this
00:26:12
stuff and so one of the goals we have is
00:26:14
don't shut down any more base load
00:26:16
preserve what we have uh and help you
00:26:18
know get other get new sources of power
00:26:20
permitted does that include nuclear some
00:26:22
of the reactor shutdowns that are
00:26:23
planned yeah we got to keep everything
00:26:25
going and we got to go fast on the small
00:26:27
modular nuclear and but again that's
00:26:29
really kind of in the 2030s so there
00:26:31
that's that's in our next it's it's in
00:26:34
important uh but it's a little less
00:26:36
urgent. We need to fasttrack all that
00:26:38
stuff long term. That's where the
00:26:39
solutions will likely lie. But in
00:26:41
between now 2025 and 2030 uh a lot of
00:26:45
it's going to come back to LG because
00:26:46
that the fastest thing we can get online
00:26:49
uh for more electricity generation is uh
00:26:51
LG power plants. LG power plants. So
00:26:53
that's number one. I mean, just to frame
00:26:55
things up for folks, you know, you
00:26:57
mentioned the city of Denver utilizes
00:26:59
about a 1 gawatt of of electricity, a
00:27:02
standard Gen 2 scaled nuclear reactor
00:27:05
facilities producing about a gigawatt.
00:27:06
And these small modular reactors, these
00:27:09
SMRs as they're called that China now
00:27:11
has demonstrated 5 megawatts. They can
00:27:13
be small, they can be located in an
00:27:15
office complex or in a downtown area of
00:27:17
a city. And they're designed to have
00:27:19
redundant systems for safety and not
00:27:21
having meltdowns and so on. talk a
00:27:23
little bit about the opportunity for
00:27:25
nuclear. You know, you're seeing the
00:27:27
2030s. Meanwhile, China's got several
00:27:28
hundred that they're in construction on.
00:27:31
There's clearly technology available
00:27:33
today. Uranium is not hard to get. We
00:27:35
have a lot of it. Thorium is not hard to
00:27:37
get. We have an incredible amount of
00:27:38
thorium. Those are the two fuel sources.
00:27:41
Why can't we move faster with nuclear?
00:27:43
What's the hold back? And why is the US
00:27:45
so different than China in being able to
00:27:48
scale up nuclear? A big difference is
00:27:50
again back to the regulatory
00:27:52
environment. I mean the the regulatory
00:27:54
environment on nuclear uh has been so
00:27:57
burdensome uh in terms of adding to the
00:28:00
cost and the time frame and bring it on
00:28:02
that and then when that cost was put
00:28:04
onto a utility and then utility felt
00:28:06
they had to put that back on the rate on
00:28:08
the on their on the uh the rate payers
00:28:10
their consumer customers uh there was in
00:28:12
some ways a revolt and it wasn't safety
00:28:14
related. It was like oh you want nuclear
00:28:16
but now my electricity is going to cost
00:28:17
twice as much. I'm not for that. So we
00:28:20
have to be able to get that regulatory
00:28:21
regime down and allow them to go faster.
00:28:23
And of course on the SMRs once that
00:28:26
design gets approved we should be able
00:28:28
to have essentially like a manufacturing
00:28:30
where we've we've we regulate the design
00:28:33
the design is proven and prove out. As
00:28:35
long as the manufacturing plant is
00:28:37
producing that same design then we don't
00:28:39
have to do this stick built show up you
00:28:42
know you work for a week the inspector
00:28:43
shows up oh this is off by you know one
00:28:46
millimeter you got to redo it. I mean
00:28:48
some of that is where you end up with
00:28:50
doubling of co I mean you can't I mean
00:28:52
some of the projects that have just been
00:28:53
completed you know that took you know
00:28:55
close to two decades on nuclear and then
00:28:57
had double the cost and double the time
00:29:00
you know that's that's not economically
00:29:02
sustainable. So part of it is we've got
00:29:04
to streamline the process, but these
00:29:05
smaller amounts, they can be daisy
00:29:07
chained. They could be great solutions.
00:29:08
And then the other piece which you love
00:29:10
about having the small moducer is we can
00:29:12
spend money on power generation as
00:29:14
opposed to money on transmission because
00:29:16
transmission is also it's really hard to
00:29:18
build a transmission line in this
00:29:20
country because whether it's a linear
00:29:22
infrastructure which includes natural
00:29:24
gas pipelines CO2 pipelines oil and gas
00:29:27
pipelines or transmission lines those
00:29:29
become the focal point for protests
00:29:32
because if they have any nexus an 1100
00:29:36
mile long pipeline could have one mile
00:29:38
that touches federal ground. That is
00:29:40
where the protest is going to occur. So,
00:29:42
going back to your deregulatory action,
00:29:44
can you do that in the seat that you're
00:29:47
in? Who can take that deregulatory
00:29:49
action? Do you need Congress to get
00:29:50
involved? I I've got a great partner,
00:29:53
Chris Wright, uh, incredibly talented,
00:29:56
arguably uh, the most qualified
00:29:58
Secretary of Energy we've ever had
00:30:00
leading that effort because the
00:30:02
Department of Energy has got most of the
00:30:04
responsibility related to nuclear
00:30:06
because they also are in charge of our
00:30:08
nuclear stockpile. I mean for the
00:30:10
military I mean DOE has got direct
00:30:12
defense responsibilities and and as part
00:30:14
of that uh they we've also got the 15
00:30:17
national labs and there's been great
00:30:19
work that's happening in Los Alamos and
00:30:21
Scandia. I mean uh you know you go
00:30:24
around the whole country and we've got
00:30:26
an incredibly talented group of people
00:30:27
and and research dollars have been
00:30:29
flowing but we've got to get some of
00:30:30
that commercialized and out to the
00:30:32
public. So but again you think of it
00:30:34
literally as a Manhattan project. These
00:30:36
were the these were the places where we
00:30:37
did the Manhattan project. when you
00:30:39
think of Los Alamos and others. So,
00:30:41
we've got to mobilize these government
00:30:42
agencies to help us on the current the
00:30:45
current crisis we're facing, which is
00:30:46
this energy emergency. We should talk to
00:30:48
Chris Wright. Um, yes, you should. And
00:30:50
then what's your what's your point of
00:30:52
view on the timeline for the SMRs? Do
00:30:53
you think it's 2035, 2030 when you have
00:30:56
that approved design and you stamp them
00:30:58
out? Is it 2040 or is it still Well, the
00:31:00
fun thing when we the fun thing when we
00:31:01
meet with all of these uh people in the
00:31:03
nuclear industry, if you were doing this
00:31:05
5 years ago, you'd have been talking to
00:31:07
regulated utilities. Today you can talk
00:31:09
to venture funded venture funded
00:31:11
startups and there's at least 10 that
00:31:13
are out there today uh that are chasing
00:31:15
new designs. There's people that are
00:31:17
changing chasing not just vision but
00:31:19
fusion and so all of that is exciting.
00:31:21
Uh and if you think about our think of
00:31:23
us having an air base in Alaska I mean
00:31:26
think of being able to daisy chain some
00:31:27
SMRs there and not having to build
00:31:29
transmission. I mean the applications
00:31:32
for the military purposes and for other
00:31:34
and then if you have distributed it's
00:31:36
harder for the enemy to knock out your
00:31:38
power source because it's not all
00:31:39
sitting in one spot. Do you think
00:31:40
America has a risk tolerance problem? My
00:31:43
view is we've gotten so wealthy and
00:31:46
comfortable and we have such prosperity
00:31:47
in this nation just like what happened
00:31:49
in Europe. You eventually say I don't
00:31:52
want to take any risk anymore and
00:31:53
everything gets regulated to the point
00:31:55
that you don't want to have any damage
00:31:57
or hurt or downside. Like this is the
00:32:00
whole thing with self-driving cars. Elon
00:32:02
just put out a tweet saying he's seeing
00:32:04
one car crash every 5 million miles or
00:32:06
something on self-driving versus 1
00:32:08
million miles when there's not
00:32:09
self-driving on. So it's a safer
00:32:11
technology, but the focal point is if
00:32:13
it's new technology and it causes any
00:32:15
harm or any loss, it's worse versus
00:32:18
looking at the calculus of the whole.
00:32:20
Have we lost that ability as a country?
00:32:22
And how do we grade leadership to
00:32:24
rethink a risk-taking America again?
00:32:27
Well, I don't know if we've lost it or
00:32:29
it's just the enumery of being selective
00:32:31
about what industry or what form of
00:32:33
transportation because on the automobile
00:32:35
side again, we'll track this year
00:32:37
between 38 and 40,000 deaths on highways
00:32:40
in America. Half of those are because of
00:32:42
impaired driving either from people
00:32:44
texting or or uh you know impaired drug
00:32:47
or alcohol use. And and apparently
00:32:49
everybody's okay with that because you
00:32:51
know we lose a 100red people a day and
00:32:53
there's never a story about it. I mean
00:32:55
more than 100 people a day, but you know
00:32:57
if you lose 70 you lose 70 people in the
00:33:00
first first airline crash in 12 years in
00:33:04
America and we're still talking about it
00:33:06
3 months later because because that
00:33:07
somehow that is news and and people
00:33:10
dying on highways is not and and in a
00:33:13
nuclear it's the same thing. Uh I I
00:33:15
actually checked on this because of
00:33:16
course we've had no n deaths from
00:33:18
anything related to nuclear power in our
00:33:21
country. Uh yeah, in the in since
00:33:23
inception, but the the best I can find
00:33:26
on the federal safety statistics is
00:33:28
there's about 37 people that have died
00:33:31
from getting angry at vending machines
00:33:33
and then pounding on them and then they
00:33:35
tip over and fall on them literally and
00:33:36
they and they crush them. Where do you
00:33:38
find that? Yeah, you just go
00:33:40
go search online, but it's it's out
00:33:42
there thing. But I mean it's like so so
00:33:45
it's like if you're if you're afraid of
00:33:47
nuclear, you know, then take a wide
00:33:49
birth. If you see a vending machine,
00:33:51
steer clear of it. And or the same
00:33:52
thing. I mean, I when I was uh when I
00:33:54
was, you know, campaigning for President
00:33:56
Trump and I said I was pro- nuclear and
00:33:58
someone said, "Well, would you know, oh,
00:34:00
really? But would you live near one?
00:34:01
Would you raise your family near one?"
00:34:02
And I said, "Well, I would." And they
00:34:04
said, "Well, how can you say that?" I
00:34:05
said, "Well, I raised them on a farm in
00:34:06
North Dakota and our farm was near a
00:34:09
road." And they said, "What do you mean
00:34:11
a road?" I said, "Well, there's it's
00:34:13
more risky than a nuclear power plant."
00:34:14
Yeah. It's like way more. I said when
00:34:16
the kids were out, if they were out on
00:34:17
a, you know, going to going to a dance
00:34:19
at high school on Friday night, I was
00:34:20
worried about them, not on the road, not
00:34:22
not about anything else. Okay. So, the
00:34:24
the the the crisis that we're in from
00:34:26
energy is not the only crisis America
00:34:28
faced. We're facing a a debt and deficit
00:34:30
crisis um that's going to challenge this
00:34:33
nation in ways we've never been
00:34:34
challenged before. 38 trillion of debt,
00:34:36
$6.75 trillion budget, $2 trillion
00:34:39
deficit. The numbers are staggering.
00:34:41
It's frightening. There's a lot of
00:34:43
economic studies that show you can't tax
00:34:44
more than 18% of GDP or else you lose
00:34:47
GDP. We're at that
00:34:50
point. You've talked a lot about
00:34:52
America's balance sheet as a way to
00:34:54
unlock opportunity to grow GDP and grow
00:34:56
our way out of this deficit debt
00:34:58
problem. Talk a little bit about what
00:34:59
you mean when you say America's balance
00:35:01
sheet and what does that entail. Well,
00:35:03
first of all, I love David the way
00:35:06
you're framing it. And I would just add,
00:35:07
you know, that two trillion dollar
00:35:09
deficit means that in the last year of
00:35:11
the Biden administration, 2,000 billion
00:35:15
2,000 billion more was spent than came
00:35:18
in. And and coming in, we have other
00:35:20
ways to bring money in other than taxes.
00:35:23
And how is that possible? Well, it's
00:35:25
because of America's balance sheet. Our
00:35:26
balance sheet isn't just the financial
00:35:28
assets. It includes the fact that just
00:35:30
within Interior alone, there's 500
00:35:32
million acres of surface land. within
00:35:34
throw in US forest service add another
00:35:36
200 million that's like nearly a third
00:35:39
of US land yes and then we have uh 700
00:35:42
million acres of subsurface sometimes
00:35:45
connect continuous and some
00:35:46
discontinuous but we own all these
00:35:48
minerals that are underground uh then
00:35:50
there's about uh you know between 2 and
00:35:52
a half and three billion acres of
00:35:54
offshore that contain critical minerals
00:35:57
and oil and gas minerals all of that is
00:35:58
under the federal purview if interior
00:36:01
was a standalone company it would have
00:36:03
the largest balance sheet in the world
00:36:05
by so far. I mean, you know, Saudi A
00:36:07
Ramco wouldn't even come close. And then
00:36:09
you'd say, okay, well, if that's if you
00:36:10
have this this, we all know about the $
00:36:13
38 trillion in debt. It gets, you know,
00:36:15
hammered all the time. It's used in
00:36:17
campaign things. But I was uh, you know,
00:36:19
even at the Hill and Valley conference
00:36:21
this week, I
00:36:23
without asking the audience, okay, how
00:36:25
many, you know, how many know the 38
00:36:27
trillion? Everybody, how many of you
00:36:28
know what our balance sheet on the asset
00:36:31
side is? Well, nobody knows because none
00:36:33
of the senators know because we haven't
00:36:35
calculated, but we're working in the
00:36:36
Trump administration to try to come up
00:36:38
with that number. And in and one
00:36:40
estimate this week is we think just on a
00:36:42
just on public land alone, there may be
00:36:44
8 trillion dollars of coal resources.
00:36:46
And I know coal is sometimes, you know,
00:36:49
it's a dirty word. It is. But, you know,
00:36:50
it's uh we need to also remember that if
00:36:53
we're going to have steel in this
00:36:54
country and we need and we all agree we
00:36:55
have need to have a steel industry. We
00:36:57
need to have for defense. We need to
00:36:58
have it for advanced manufacturing. We
00:37:00
also need to have a shipping industry
00:37:02
that comes back to our country. You need
00:37:03
steel for that. Well, guess what you
00:37:05
make steel out of? Well, part of it you
00:37:07
make it out of you need you need coke.
00:37:08
And coke comes from a certain kind of
00:37:10
metallurgical coal. So, if we kill the
00:37:12
coal industry, you can't have a steel
00:37:13
industry unless we're going to have
00:37:15
somebody ship metallurgical coal to us.
00:37:17
In the coal resources around our
00:37:19
country, the coal is also filled up with
00:37:21
the critical and rare earth minerals uh
00:37:23
that we need to go in this battle with
00:37:25
China. Particularly now with China just
00:37:26
in weeks ago putting on export controls
00:37:29
on a number of minerals that we need for
00:37:31
doing things like you know batteries
00:37:33
that we need for electric motors for
00:37:35
whether it's cars or home drills or or
00:37:37
you know rockets missiles. I mean the
00:37:39
the the the magnets that are at risk now
00:37:43
because we became so dependent on China.
00:37:45
So when you take a look at the the this
00:37:47
balance sheet you know we need it for
00:37:49
defense, we need it for national
00:37:50
security. But theore Roosevelt who was
00:37:52
be instrumental in putting away these
00:37:55
hundreds of millions of acres in the
00:37:56
original intention that said this was
00:37:58
there for the benefit and use of the
00:38:00
American people. And it al he also said
00:38:03
very explicitly that that conservation
00:38:06
meant meant you know sustainable use not
00:38:09
just preservation because we saw what
00:38:11
happened you know following the uh the
00:38:14
the extremism that that landed around
00:38:17
the spotted owl which is oh we've got to
00:38:19
stop not just the harvesting of certain
00:38:21
old growth timber and it killed the
00:38:23
timber industry in America and when we
00:38:26
killed it back in the 1990s uh then and
00:38:30
it has never come back. And now what's
00:38:32
happening 30 years later because those
00:38:34
timber companies that would get a lease
00:38:35
from the federal government, they would
00:38:37
have the responsibility for going in and
00:38:39
thinning and cleaning and responsibly
00:38:42
managing that and they would send a
00:38:43
check to the federal government. We'd
00:38:45
have revenue instead of revenue today,
00:38:47
we have expense. We burn more board feet
00:38:50
of lumber in this country every year
00:38:53
right now than we are harvesting because
00:38:55
because of the wildfire because of
00:38:56
uncontrolled wildfires. And then the
00:38:58
uncontrolled wildfires are some of our
00:38:59
biggest emitters, you know, in terms of
00:39:01
CO2. You burn a tree, it releases the
00:39:03
carbon. So again, the folks that wanted
00:39:05
to, you know, reduce emissions, save the
00:39:08
planet, you know, help the wildlife,
00:39:10
we're actually doing the opposite of
00:39:11
that. So we have to get back in the
00:39:13
business of of, you know, grazing our
00:39:15
lands, managing our forest, developing
00:39:18
our our our resources and our critical
00:39:20
minerals, getting back. We have to mine
00:39:21
again in this country. Mining can't be,
00:39:24
you know, if we want to be a strong
00:39:25
country, we've got to do that. Uh, and
00:39:27
of course oil and gas. You do all of
00:39:29
those things that I just named. All of
00:39:30
those involve selling a lease to a
00:39:32
private company. They send a check and
00:39:35
then they develop the resource and then
00:39:36
they send us a royalty. The little
00:39:38
company that I just met with this
00:39:39
morning out on the platform on the Gulf
00:39:41
of America in its inception. This is a
00:39:43
company with 450 people. They have sent
00:39:45
1.2 billion dollars to the US Treasury
00:39:48
over the life of their company. You
00:39:50
know, show me a tech company that's done
00:39:51
that. I mean, impossible for a lease to
00:39:53
access that resource. Well, the the
00:39:55
lease and and they they lease it up
00:39:57
front. So, they write a check up front
00:39:58
to have the to have the opportunity to
00:40:00
take the risk. They take all the risk.
00:40:02
They build the platform. They hire the
00:40:04
people. They do the seismic. They figure
00:40:06
it out. And if they hit a dry hole, it's
00:40:07
all on them. Taxpayer nothing. But if
00:40:09
they score, then they pay us a royalty.
00:40:11
And what do we use that for? We use it
00:40:13
for, you know, we use it for paying down
00:40:15
the deficit and the debt. We also use it
00:40:16
for coastal restoration. You know, along
00:40:19
this beautiful Gulf Coast, you do
00:40:20
coastal restoration. With that, the
00:40:21
dollars go back to the states. the
00:40:23
largest funer of coastal restoration in
00:40:26
this country is the oil and gas industry
00:40:28
uh you know here in the Gulf. So again
00:40:30
the it's you know if like I said if you
00:40:32
if you've driven on an in on an
00:40:34
interstate highway in your life or if
00:40:36
you've gone to a public school you
00:40:37
should send a thank you note to the the
00:40:40
natural resource industries because they
00:40:41
were helping to pay for that. But what's
00:40:43
happened if I if there's a hundred
00:40:45
trillion dollars on the balance sheet,
00:40:46
just say that. And and now and you're a
00:40:49
finance, tech, venture guy, you could
00:40:51
say, "Okay, we'll we'll allow uh the
00:40:53
federal government to be the worst. You
00:40:55
guys can have a 1% return on your
00:40:57
natural assets. That would be $1
00:41:00
trillion." Okay, last year, Interior
00:41:03
brought in 22 billion. So, so we're off
00:41:05
we're off by a factor of 50 from having
00:41:08
bad performance on getting a return on
00:41:10
investment for the American people. I
00:41:12
guess you know the assets only count if
00:41:14
you can access them, utilize them,
00:41:15
monetize them. We all know from a
00:41:17
finance perspective there's goodwill
00:41:19
that could sit on an asset line and
00:41:21
doesn't mean anything at the end of the
00:41:23
day. If you can't monetize it, it's not
00:41:25
worth much. So, how do you think about
00:41:27
the target you're going after? Is it a
00:41:29
trillion? And then when do you develop
00:41:31
and deliver a plan to the American
00:41:33
people that says, "Guys, here's our
00:41:35
target. Here's when we're going to get
00:41:36
there." Do you think about it that way?
00:41:38
We don't have a target yet because we
00:41:39
don't even know what the base unused
00:41:41
resources. I mean, we're trying to get
00:41:42
our hands around, you know, what what is
00:41:44
our timber worth? What is our, you know,
00:41:46
oil and gas? And that goes back to the
00:41:48
core mission of the US Geologic Survey.
00:41:50
Its original core mission was to map.
00:41:52
So, when we say it's, you know, it's
00:41:54
it's map, baby, map. uh because then
00:41:56
that can tell you, you know, where
00:41:58
you're supposed to mine, baby mine,
00:41:59
where you're supposed to drill, baby
00:42:00
drill. But getting back to the mapping
00:42:01
and working with the private sector,
00:42:03
who's outstripped, who's outstripped. I
00:42:06
mean, ground penetrating radar, uh, is,
00:42:08
you know, a new advancement, uh, that's,
00:42:10
you know, more accurate than seismic and
00:42:12
less intrusive. And we need to really
00:42:14
understand what America's balance sheet
00:42:16
is. And some of that's going to take
00:42:17
some work for us to get out there and
00:42:18
really survey it. And, and then when we
00:42:20
have that, that's public domain. publish
00:42:22
that information and that'll help the
00:42:24
private sector steer where they should
00:42:26
put their resources to help develop
00:42:27
this. Let's talk about mining. The
00:42:30
United States used to mine. You and I
00:42:32
had a dinner a couple weeks ago. You
00:42:34
gave me a statistic which I hadn't heard
00:42:36
before, which is we only graduate 200
00:42:39
people in degrees in mining today. Why
00:42:42
did we stop mining? Why did we stop
00:42:44
developing our own natural resources and
00:42:47
shift to a model where we're buying
00:42:48
dependent and now have critical supply
00:42:50
chain dependencies? What happened in the
00:42:52
United States? Well, I think there was
00:42:55
there was some, you know, our country
00:42:57
was a powerful and great minor and it
00:42:59
was when you think back to, you know,
00:43:01
even the early 1900s, you think about
00:43:03
where we were, you know, what we were
00:43:04
doing in gold and silver and then, you
00:43:06
know, through World War II, uh, and even
00:43:08
up into the 1980s, we were still very
00:43:11
strong as a mining country and a mining
00:43:13
industry. And then and then uh there
00:43:15
were some environmental issues that
00:43:16
environmental awareness you had some
00:43:18
super fund sites and and it just became
00:43:20
you know one of the focal points of the
00:43:22
attack of of uh of hey then it sort of
00:43:25
was all a sudden all mining was bad as
00:43:27
opposed to one operator in one location
00:43:30
uh that you know maybe wasn't maintained
00:43:32
right and so then I think whether it was
00:43:34
young people choosing careers or whether
00:43:36
it was press whatever but then the
00:43:38
regulatory environment piled on in a
00:43:40
heavy way to the point that you know
00:43:42
it's just amazing one of the resolution
00:43:44
copper. We're just in the process now of
00:43:46
issuing them a permit. It's taken about
00:43:48
three months here in the Trump
00:43:50
administration. They started this
00:43:52
process over 29 years ago. Wow. I mean,
00:43:55
this is this is this has gone three
00:43:56
decade long saga to open up a copper
00:43:59
mine. And guess what? We need copper
00:44:01
more than we've ever needed before. I
00:44:03
mean, it's it's part of, you know, every
00:44:04
electric motor. It's a part of all of
00:44:06
the advanced stuff that we're building.
00:44:08
And and so, I mean, it's thrilling that
00:44:10
we're going to open a copper mine in
00:44:11
America. And then some of the mines that
00:44:13
have barely hung on uh but are still
00:44:15
going whether it's gold or silver uh or
00:44:18
others uranium in some cases uh along
00:44:21
with that mining process there are
00:44:23
critical minerals that are adjacent. I
00:44:25
mean we can add a critical minerals
00:44:26
refining because it's not just that we
00:44:28
aren't mining those raw materials. China
00:44:31
has got the corner on the refining not
00:44:33
just mine to refine. So when they're in
00:44:35
they're in the you know the the Congo in
00:44:37
Africa pulling out those those those
00:44:39
those rich research rich minerals
00:44:42
they're bringing those back to China.
00:44:43
We've got examples of companies in
00:44:45
America that were mining in America but
00:44:47
there was no process. They were sending
00:44:48
it to China and China was doing the
00:44:50
refining. Well now we're in a we're
00:44:52
literally in a in a in a war around
00:44:54
these critical minerals which we need
00:44:55
for defense. Uh and and we don't have a
00:44:57
stockpile. So part of what we're
00:44:59
concerned with right now and said you
00:45:01
know how do we get capital flowing back
00:45:02
to mining? How do we start building
00:45:04
stockpiles in America the way we have
00:45:06
the strategic petroleum reserve across
00:45:08
the top 20 most important critical
00:45:10
minerals? And then how do we derisk it,
00:45:12
you know, if someone's going to get into
00:45:14
mining? And do we need uh like a
00:45:16
sovereign risk insurance, but not
00:45:18
because you're working overseas because
00:45:20
you're working here because the next
00:45:21
administration may use an EO to wipe out
00:45:23
your mine. Uh, and so again, giving
00:45:26
giving the capital providers the
00:45:28
confidence that if somehow they're
00:45:30
regulated out of business, they'll get
00:45:31
compensated through an insurance
00:45:33
program. And what about in your role
00:45:35
administering the EPA, looking out for
00:45:38
environmental standards, protecting our
00:45:39
environment, protecting our communities,
00:45:41
there were toxic super fund sites.
00:45:44
What's the thinking from your point of
00:45:45
view on making sure that we're doing
00:45:47
this in a clean way and how important
00:45:48
that is in this calculus? Well, Lee
00:45:50
Zeldon, uh, our EPA administrator is is
00:45:53
also a key part of the energy dominance
00:45:55
council, as is about half of the
00:45:57
cabinet. I mean, we've got, you know,
00:45:59
Howard Lutnik, Scott Bessant, uh, Brook
00:46:02
Rollins, you know, from a with US forest
00:46:04
everything. There's literally about half
00:46:06
the cabinet. Uh, transportation, Sean
00:46:08
Duffy's on there. Uh, everybody's, you
00:46:10
know, part of this team of trying to
00:46:12
solve this larger complex thing. But I
00:46:14
would say that the one thing we forget
00:46:15
about when we often there's these
00:46:17
national discussions which is that every
00:46:19
state also has a regulatory environment.
00:46:22
And in my time as governor, one thing I
00:46:24
learned was that there was I had I never
00:46:27
met a bureaucrat from DC that cared more
00:46:29
about the land, the water, the soil
00:46:31
health or the air in our state than the
00:46:33
people that lived there and the people
00:46:35
that worked for our own DEEQ. And so
00:46:37
when people say, "Oh, you know, we're
00:46:38
reducing headcount at the EPA. The
00:46:40
world's going to fall apart." No, we
00:46:42
have two issues with regulation. One is
00:46:44
is the overreach which is you have
00:46:46
people going beyond the law on their
00:46:48
original charter and regulating things
00:46:50
you know regulate when they're supposed
00:46:52
to be regulating water and I need and a
00:46:54
water permit should be about turbidity
00:46:57
and temperature and is the fish in this
00:47:00
area going to be affected as opposed to
00:47:03
oh oh we're not giving this permit
00:47:04
because we're worried about climate
00:47:05
change is because the thing in your pipe
00:47:06
is natural gas. I mean that's a real
00:47:08
example. That's how Cuomo knocked out a
00:47:11
a permit that was, you know, way beyond
00:47:13
what the law said. I mean, if there was
00:47:15
an issue with how the company was
00:47:16
crossing a water course, like 38,000
00:47:19
other LG crossings of of water courses
00:47:23
in America, if there's a real problem,
00:47:25
then tell them that and they'll
00:47:26
horizontally direct drill it 50 feet
00:47:28
below the bottom of the river. It'll
00:47:29
never touch the river and give them a
00:47:30
permit. Instead, they'd be like, "No,
00:47:32
you know, there's no permit because
00:47:33
we're concerned about climate change."
00:47:35
That's overreach. But the overlap that
00:47:37
occurs every day is that the federal
00:47:39
government infrastructure is overlapping
00:47:41
with the states. And there isn't a need
00:47:43
to do both of those things. And and you
00:47:45
might, you know, go to path for, you
00:47:48
know, two years, three years and get
00:47:49
your federal permit and then find out,
00:47:51
oh, that a state like New York is is not
00:47:54
going to provide it. Or you might get a
00:47:55
a permit in six months in a in a state
00:47:57
that's that can efficiently do
00:47:59
permitting and get all the work done and
00:48:01
take care of everything and then find
00:48:02
out that the federal government's going
00:48:04
to sit on it for an entire presidential
00:48:06
term because they're ideologically
00:48:08
opposed. When we do that to ourselves,
00:48:10
then we have no chance against a country
00:48:12
like China that is focused on on on an
00:48:15
outcome which is they're going to
00:48:16
achieve prosperity. they're going to
00:48:18
achieve uh all of their environmental
00:48:20
goals by having the power to have all
00:48:22
the solutions as opposed to uh the uh
00:48:25
the environment we have now which
00:48:27
restricts that that innovation.
00:48:28
President Trump's uh just finished his
00:48:30
100 days in office. Are you glad you
00:48:33
took the job? What's been most
00:48:35
surprising for you since you've been in
00:48:37
the role? Well, I'm I'm having a blast.
00:48:40
Uh and I'm thrilled to be in this
00:48:42
position where we can have an impact.
00:48:43
you know, you get up every day and it's
00:48:45
a little bit like the old uh, you know,
00:48:47
World War II uh, you know, Marines in
00:48:49
the Pacific would say, you know, the
00:48:50
bad, you know, we're in a foxhole. The
00:48:52
bad we're in a foxhole, we're on a
00:48:53
beach. The bad news is, uh, you know,
00:48:55
we're surrounded. The good news is we
00:48:56
can attack in any direction. And and so
00:48:59
every day you can get up and go make a
00:49:01
difference in in people's lives. And and
00:49:03
that's and for anybody that's in tech or
00:49:05
anybody that's listening, you know, that
00:49:07
poo poos public service, they ought to
00:49:08
really think about the fact, I mean, we
00:49:10
need people that are, as Teddy Roosevelt
00:49:11
said, that are willing to get in the
00:49:12
arena because in these jobs, uh, that
00:49:15
are, you know, really purposeful, you
00:49:17
can make a difference for a lot of
00:49:18
people thing. But what's surprising
00:49:20
about the job was I I knew that the from
00:49:23
a tech standpoint because I lived
00:49:24
through it eight years in North Dakota
00:49:26
where where where state government
00:49:29
wasn't up to speed on just basic
00:49:31
technology and basic business systems
00:49:33
and all the things that that uh that
00:49:35
that reduce productivity and create uh I
00:49:40
say agony for state or federal
00:49:42
employees. I mean, we we asked them to
00:49:44
do mind-numbing and soul sucking work
00:49:46
for like 20% of their time because we
00:49:48
haven't given them the basic tools that
00:49:50
everybody in the private sector has had.
00:49:52
And so, it's not like that anybody's bad
00:49:54
a bad people, but you could get rid of
00:49:56
20% of this of the quote work by just
00:49:59
bringing in the tools that are there. I
00:50:01
mean, you could have 20% less people,
00:50:02
then the people would have a more
00:50:03
meaningful, more purposeful job, more
00:50:05
productive. Yeah. All of those things.
00:50:07
And so, what I thought was it can't be
00:50:09
worse than it was in North Dakota. And
00:50:10
then I got into the at least in the
00:50:12
department of interior and uh we are we
00:50:16
are further behind. I mean we're going
00:50:17
to you know this is a the land of you
00:50:20
know decommissioning main mainframes and
00:50:22
then we could just you know take them
00:50:23
straight to the Smithsonian to the 1980s
00:50:25
exhibit. I had dinner with a couple CIOS
00:50:28
CTOs that are that have now been put in
00:50:30
the government and um the stories are
00:50:32
incredible. Totally echo what you what
00:50:34
you're saying. Secretary Bergam, thank
00:50:36
you for this opportunity to join you
00:50:37
here on this beautiful day. I really
00:50:39
appreciate the work you're doing. It's
00:50:40
fantastic to hear that there's someone
00:50:42
in the administration with your
00:50:44
perspective, your experience doing this
00:50:45
work. And so I just want to say thank
00:50:47
you. And David, I want to return that. I
00:50:50
want to thank you and all your
00:50:51
compatriots at Allin because uh you're
00:50:54
you're really uh allowing an opportunity
00:50:57
for America to have a dialogue that goes
00:50:58
deeper than the sound bite. Yeah. And I
00:51:00
I think that all of you may
00:51:02
underestimate the impact that Allin has
00:51:04
had. Uh I know that uh that it's a
00:51:07
you're influencing policy. You're you're
00:51:09
you know helping people understand the
00:51:11
complexity and both the opportunities
00:51:13
and the threats of big things that
00:51:14
really matter to all Americans. And so
00:51:16
and and thank you for being so well
00:51:18
informed and thanks for coming all the
00:51:19
way down here to Louisiana to share this
00:51:21
beautiful day on the coast. Thanks.
00:51:23
Thank you.
00:51:27
[Music]
00:51:32
I'm going all in.
