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Jared Isaacman was nominated by
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President Trump to become the 15th
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administrator of NASA in December. He
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passed out of the Senate committee in
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May and was set to be confirmed by the
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full Senate this week. However, on
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Friday, President Trump withdrew his
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nomination for Isaacman. We asked Jared
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to sit down with us for a conversation.
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We dive into everything. his experiences
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as a successful entrepreneur, fighter
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jet pilot, commander of the world's
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first all civilian space flight and the
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first civilian to conduct a spacew walk.
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What he saw in his six months studying
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NASA. How American government
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bureaucracy has eroded its performance
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and puts the nation at risk in the great
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space race underway with China. And what
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really happened? Was it a discovery
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about prior donations to Democratic
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candidates or an association with Elon
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Musk that lost him the nomination?
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Here's my conversation with Jared
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Isaacman.
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All right, besties. I think that was
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another epic discussion. People love the
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interviews. I could hear him talk for
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hours. Absolutely. We crushed your
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questions in a minute. We are giving
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people ground truth data to underwrite
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your own opinion. What do you guys
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think? That was fun. That was great.
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Jared, welcome. I, like many space
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enthusiasts, was thrilled for your
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nomination to lead NASA as the 15th
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administrator of the agency. Founded in
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1958, the year after the Russians put
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Sputnik into orbit, NASA's perhaps, in
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my opinion, the US government's most
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pioneering agency, having organized and
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led our exploration missions to the
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moon, Mars, the outer solar system, and
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beyond, as well as the launch of
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important scientific missions to observe
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the Earth, to observe our solar system,
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and the deep universe, and of course,
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the installation and operation of the
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ISS. and you seemed really qualified for
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the job as uh a business manager, a
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successful
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entrepreneur, a flight and space
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enthusiast. So, I'm really curious to
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hear your views on NASA, the space
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industry overall, the race with China,
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and frankly hear a little bit about what
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the heck just happened with your
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nomination. A lot of people have a lot
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of questions that we'd love to hear your
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point of view on. So, I thank you for
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joining me today, Jared. I'm thrilled to
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be here to chat. And as a someone who's
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been a space enthusiast since
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kindergarten, whether it's through the
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lens of commercial space or, you know,
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the great space race from the 1960s or
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NASA today, like these are all subjects
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I get pretty charged up about. So, love
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to chat about what inspired you to get
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into space. You went to Embry Riddle
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Aeronautical
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University and you later became an
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entrepreneur, but were you always kind
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of obsessed with space and did you
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always dream of doing what you got to do
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last year, which is walk in space? Yeah,
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so the this is all my parents fault.
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They um they skimped out on a babysitter
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as a kid and just put me in front of the
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TV. So, uh, I was watching movies like
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Top Gun, uh, The Rights Stuff, um, Space
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Camp, the movie, you know, 1980s movie
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where if you go to Space Camp, a robot's
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going to launch you into space. This was
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all stuff in like my elementary school
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year. So, um, I mean, I told I just
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showed it to my kids last week, by the
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way. So funny that you say that. I I
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pulled up Space Camp. I had to buy it
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because it's not on any of the streaming
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services to show it to my kids. Yeah.
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Okay. I've been to Space Camp to like
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speak to the students a number of times
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and I ask them like, "All right, raise
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your hands if you've seen the movie
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Space Camp here and know who Jinx is and
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like no one raises their hands and that
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just goes to show I'm I'm old." So, so
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you were always into it. Is is that what
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you wanted to do to work in aeronautical
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engineering or as a pilot or what were
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you thinking of doing? Yeah, I mean so
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kind of interesting start to the story.
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I mean I um I started my day job which
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is shift for you know it's a it's a
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pretty large large fintech now when I
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was 16 and I was just like most you know
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as you know entrepreneurs you're you're
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burning yourself out waking up on the
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keyboard and you know I said I need a
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hobby in life uh so I picked up my
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passion for flying and I I I basically
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had parallel careers you know in
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aviation and in and in business and I
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started flying air shows in uh in 2010
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and 2011. 11 and I was flying with a
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bunch of really talented ex-military,
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even current military pilots and they
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were like, you know, you could fly in
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the, you know, in the Air National Guard
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or the reserves and um and I found out,
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well, wow, that's amazing. You can fly
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fighter jets part-time and serve the
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country. You need a college degree. I
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never had one cuz I I started my
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business at 16. So, that's actually why
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I went back to why I went back to
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school, went to Embry Riddle because
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it's a I mean, it's an aviation school.
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Uh I think it graduates um more Air
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Force pilots every year than the Air
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Force Academy. But anyway, that that's
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ultimately why I I got my degree. But my
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my pursuits kind of in parallel of of
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business and aviation has existed, you
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know, really since I was a teenager. So
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you're running this business. So Shift
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4, just for those who are listening, is
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a payment processing company that is a
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public company today, $8.5 billion
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market cap. So you've built an
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incredible business. And then on the
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side, my understanding is you've flown
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like 7,000 hours in fighter jets and
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you've tried to beat the
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circumnavigation record a couple of
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times now. So, were you kind of going to
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work and then on the weekends flying? I
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mean, how did you kind of balance
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running a company trying to do that
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today while balancing this podcast? I
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can tell you it's really hard to do that
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and anything else. It's like how did you
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how did you do that? Well, I mean, you
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know, again, I started my business at
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16. I started flying a couple years
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after that. You know, this is before you
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have a, you know, a family and other
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responsibilities. So, like literally all
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I was doing was working and flying.
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Mostly flying at night, which was
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great. You know, I did that around the
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world record flight. Didn't get it in
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08. Broke it broke that record in09. We
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did it to raise funds for Makea-Wish
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Foundation, which was which was cool.
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And it was a great challenge. And then,
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um, later on started flying air shows,
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which was great. And you know, we did a
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lot to raise money for Make a Wish
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there. And then we we kind of took uh
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the air show flying, which was just
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maximum fun, super adrenaline, and was
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like, we're we're doing loops and rolls
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to music, you know, 10 ft off the
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ground, 18 in between our wings. We
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probably should pivot this to something
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that keeps the fun factor up, but has
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some commercial intent, also helps the
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country. So, we started a a defense
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company called Draen. We w up assembling
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the world's largest fleet of fighter
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jets, jets just like this behind me. And
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we were professional bad guys for the
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Department of Defense, the Air Force.
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Like we would fly as aggressors just
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like in Top Gun replicating Russian and
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Chinese Iranian tactics. I literally I
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mean I remember at Christmas parties in
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you know 2014 2015 speaking to the to
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the workforce I was like I hope you all
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know next to commercial space and what
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Elon's doing at SpaceX. This is the
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second coolest company. Like we get to
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be professional bad guys all the time.
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It was awesome. So I again I've had two
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awesome parallel careers. Um, but hey,
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running two companies like nothing
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compared to Elon. I think I I can't even
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He's got to be up to like a half a dozen
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CEO titles uh in parallel right now. Not
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to mention trying to save the, you know,
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the country um you know uh and get it
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back on a good fiscal footing. So, it's
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my my responsibilities are pale in
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comparison. Well, so when did you first
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meet Elon and how did you meet him? So,
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it's interesting and I almost like
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guarantee you wouldn't uh remember it.
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Uh after well, first I think like in
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early 2000. So, I started my fintech in
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1999. I actually think we were on like
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the same like uh old uh it was like a TV
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show being interviewed um in the early
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2000s and we that was probably the first
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handshake. It was after we set the uh we
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broke actually the uh I'm sorry we
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didn't break the record. This was in
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2008 the around the world record. We
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came up short. Peter Demanis, Dr. De
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Manis reached out and um asked if uh if
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I wanted to go to Bikenor and see a
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Soyuse launch with some of the uh kind
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of early commercial space pioneers. I
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remember, you know, all the Google
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founders were on that
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TU154, you know, Russian transport. I'm
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like, man, if if this thing goes down,
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you're you're wiping out a lot of like a
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lot of brain power here because Sergey
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Larry, Eric Schmidt was on it. And that
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that was um it was coming back from
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that. I think there was a charity poker
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event or something at Elon's house in um
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it was early days of of Tesla. So, I
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think I met him again there, but but
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really we you know, like we don't know
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each other that well. I've only spoken
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to him, you know, a couple dozen times
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maybe over the years and almost entirely
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related to my commercial space missions,
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Inspiration 4 and Plaston. Oh, so you're
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not like super close with him because I
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think there's this narrative that you
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and Elon have a secret, you know, deep
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connection and he's one of your best
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friends. And you know, that's kind of
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like how how your hearing went when I
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look on the some of the video clips of
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how some of the senators were treating
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you. They're like, "Oh, you're you're
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doing this all for Elon. He's your best
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friend."
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Yeah, you know, the sen I think almost
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every one of the senators on both sides
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of the aisle made that assumption and
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asked a lot of questions on that. And I
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said, look, I Elon is one of the most
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accomplished, if not the most
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accomplished entrepreneur in modern
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history. Every one of his companies sets
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out to solve some of the greatest
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engineering problems for all
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humankind. Even his, you know, kind of
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super selfless service to the to the
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government of trying getting us back on,
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again, like I said, sound fiscal
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footing. Um, I admire a lot of what he
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does, but but honestly, and I told the
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senators, my connection is I I I paid
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his company to go to space twice. And
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look, if there was more than just SpaceX
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out there offering the service and you
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had competition, I probably would have
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paid less. Like, it's like, so if
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anything, I'm very pro competition in
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this regard. And uh, you know, I don't
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consider myself beholden to Elon at all.
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I want to see all of commercial space
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succeed. I'm I'm a huge space
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enthusiast. Let's go through that. So,
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you met Elon. Did you get involved as an
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investor in SpaceX along the way? How
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did the inspiration 4 mission come to
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be? In uh 2020, uh I did hear that, you
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know, SpaceX was doing another one of
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its secondary rounds and I was connected
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through, you know, I think it was city
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and I w up speaking to the CFO at uh at
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SpaceX and he's like, "No, look, the you
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know, funding round is closed and um you
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know, we're kind of pretty selective on
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on who we let in." I was like, "Okay,
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great. Well, hey, you know, back in
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2008, I actually got the uh the first
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offer to pilot the first Dragon
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spacecraft, which is wild to think
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about, like 2008. And um even if I can't
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be an investor, you know, at some point
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or another, I'd love to have an
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opportunity. And he was like, well,
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can't be an investor now, but we could
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talk about uh a human spaceflight
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mission. And I had no idea I was going
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to have an opportunity to be the first.
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I assumed there was a lot of people in
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front. And um man, it was uh what a
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privilege to be able to do that. Um be
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part of mission design and select a crew
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of inspiring individuals and raise a
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quarter of a billion dollars for St.
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Jude. And it was just a successful
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mission. It helped open the door for a
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lot of other commercial missions to
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come. So awesome experience. So in 2021,
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you commanded inspiration 4, which was
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the first all civilian space flight
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using the SpaceX Crew Dragon. Yep. And
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that was just truly like a momentous
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mission. It was just so beautiful to
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watch. And I remember it was also like a
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tough year because it was a year after
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co. So it was so great to see that
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happening. But I had assumed and I think
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a lot of people had assumed that you
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were like a big investor in SpaceX or
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really tight. But it just happened
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within a a one and a half year or year
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period that you kind of went from, hey,
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I'd love to put some money into SpaceX
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to, oh, I can participate and command
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inspiration for and get out there into
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space. Like that's a year and a half
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days. Like I like literally from that
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phone call in, you know, October, um,
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Inspiration 4 was born. A week or two
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later, we did a like a ceremonial
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signing at the uh at the Crew One
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launch, which is wild, too. And it
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speaks to the confidence of SpaceX that
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they were ready to sign up for the first
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commercial, like the first civilian
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mission to orbit before they even
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returned operational capability uh for
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human space flight to NASA. Now, they
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did demo two, of course, with with Bob
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and Doug, but crew 1 had not flown when
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SpaceX said, "We're going to get this
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done." And then 10 months later, we were
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in orbit, and it was an incredible
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experience. And obviously, we followed
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it up with a whole development program
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with Polaris and um and flew a second
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mission as well. So, yeah. So, just
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going back, you said you were made, you
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were given an offer to pilot a Crew
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Dragon in ' 08. Is that correct? When
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did that how did that happen? So it was
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it was right after I came back from that
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around the world flight and again I said
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you know Dr. Dmanis reached out and uh
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we met in the city and he was like you
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seem to be like kind of thinking the way
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we think uh in in terms of you know a
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more exciting future in transportation
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and and aerospace. Now of course his
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interests cover everything from like
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human life extension to he likes to
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solve a lot of world problems too. Yeah.
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And it was through those connections and
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coming out to
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Bikenor that I did get that uh I did get
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that offer. I still have the agreement.
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It was funny. I uh I showed it to some
00:13:06
of the SpaceX folks when we were talking
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about Inspiration 4, but yeah. Amazing.
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Yeah. Just knocked on the door every now
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and then and got lucky in 2020. Um it
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was certainly through the approach of
00:13:15
trying to be an investor, but it it
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revisited old conversations and moved
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very quickly. Kind of funny that a
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banker called you from city and that led
00:13:22
to you. Oh, I called the banker. Oh, you
00:13:25
called the banker. They called the
00:13:26
banker trying to get the the a contact
00:13:29
uh like a a recent contact and that's uh
00:13:31
that's that's like hook me up. I want to
00:13:33
get in. That's crazy. Yeah. Okay. So
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then you said hey that was a successful
00:13:37
mission. You had obviously a good
00:13:39
relationship with SpaceX and the
00:13:41
operations team there I'm assuming and
00:13:43
you said hey I'd like to come back and
00:13:47
like Polaris dawn was formed at that
00:13:48
time or did that come together later
00:13:50
just for the audience. So last what was
00:13:52
it
00:13:53
September you were the first private
00:13:55
citizen in human history to perform a
00:13:58
spacew walk which again another
00:14:01
incredible moment and you know I think
00:14:05
it was inspiring for people who realized
00:14:08
at that moment that perhaps you didn't
00:14:10
need to become an astronaut to be able
00:14:13
to walk in space. I mean it was really
00:14:14
just incredible. But how did the
00:14:16
continuation go from inspiration 4 to
00:14:17
Polaris dawn? Yeah and I I loved it. I
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mean, Plaston was filled with we crammed
00:14:22
so many really incredible objectives in
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five days uh on top of about 40 science
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experiments. It was an awesome mission.
00:14:29
I'd love to tell you about it. And and
00:14:31
you know, but uh yeah, so when we came
00:14:33
back from Inspiration 4, I thought we
00:14:36
checked the box on every objective. I
00:14:38
mean, we navigated the whole, you know,
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billionaire in in space thing, which at
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the time with, you know, some of the
00:14:44
other, you know, missions that were
00:14:45
going off was um was attracting a lot of
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a lot of heat and really focused it on
00:14:49
trying to to do good in the world that,
00:14:51
you know, we can make progress in space
00:14:53
and try and, you know, make the, you
00:14:56
know, mother earth a better place. And
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we focused on raising a lot of money for
00:15:00
St. Jude. And um and anyway, like we did
00:15:02
and we did three days of science and
00:15:04
research experiments. It felt really
00:15:05
good and we were a little bit short on
00:15:08
our uh on our um you know our
00:15:10
fundraising goal for uh St. Jude. I mean
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we we set out to raise over $200
00:15:15
million. We wound up raising $250
00:15:18
million but we were a little short and
00:15:19
we came back and I was like man we
00:15:20
almost got everything done and then Elon
00:15:22
sent a tweet right after Splashdown. 40
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minutes after Splashdown and he said put
00:15:26
me in for 50 million. And he already had
00:15:28
put in five and we we we exceeded our
00:15:31
goal and I was like man we got
00:15:33
everything done. We set the bar high.
00:15:36
Maybe this is it. And um it was a couple
00:15:39
weeks later that I was invited to go to
00:15:41
Starbase. Uh this was the second time I
00:15:43
went. This was like October of 21. And
00:15:46
we sat down with a number of folks
00:15:48
including Elon. And we talked about, you
00:15:51
know, doing a um like a developmental
00:15:53
program where we actually can build
00:15:55
things and test things that hadn't been
00:15:56
done in a while. And I remember Elon,
00:15:58
he's like, "We we can build a suit. I
00:16:00
know exactly how I would do it. and
00:16:02
let's go up really high, you know, let's
00:16:04
get past the Gemini 11 record, go
00:16:06
farther into space than anyone's gone
00:16:07
since we last walked on the moon because
00:16:09
it's it's different. It's hard and we're
00:16:11
going to learn a lot. And that's what
00:16:12
you need to do when you want to inspire
00:16:14
people is not kind of do the same things
00:16:15
over and over again, but but do things
00:16:17
that are different and build up to an
00:16:19
even grander objective. And I was like,
00:16:21
"All right, I'm totally in." And we
00:16:22
contemplated other missions, you know, a
00:16:24
follow on to Polaris dawn and then the
00:16:25
first crude flight of Starship. But, uh,
00:16:27
the nomination came in and, you know,
00:16:29
had to put my my, uh, fun space career
00:16:32
on hold to to to for an incredible
00:16:34
opportunity to serve the country and
00:16:36
contribute to the world's greatest space
00:16:37
agency. So, let's get into that. How did
00:16:40
the
00:16:41
conversation lead to you becoming the
00:16:45
nominee to administer NASA? Were you in
00:16:48
conversations with Elon first? Is that
00:16:51
how this this kind of began for you? No.
00:16:55
So, and and I think like that's another
00:16:57
thing that, you know, almost every
00:16:59
senator wanted to ask is, you know, you
00:17:01
know, weren't weren't you Elon's guy in
00:17:03
this? Like I I have no doubt. I mean,
00:17:04
look, he he he helped the president win
00:17:06
the election. He he's was in Air Force
00:17:08
One, Marine One. He was at Mara Lago
00:17:10
throughout the campaign. I'm I'm I'm
00:17:11
sure he had inputs. I was getting text
00:17:13
messages from generals that I uh that I
00:17:17
got to know when I built, you know,
00:17:18
helped build that defense company,
00:17:20
Draen. Uh that's where we flew all the
00:17:22
fighter jets and and you know, they were
00:17:24
in now positions of influence and said,
00:17:26
"Would you like to serve in the in the
00:17:28
administration and and it wasn't even
00:17:30
just NASA. I mean, there were roles from
00:17:32
Treasury to uh the department, you know,
00:17:35
to the Air Force." And I was like, I am
00:17:37
honored to contribute anyway. you know,
00:17:38
I've had I've been, you know, relatively
00:17:40
apolitical, but if I've had one
00:17:42
political position that I've been
00:17:43
pounding the table on since I um since I
00:17:46
I was exposed to the defense industry at
00:17:47
Draen, it's the competitiveness of the
00:17:49
nation. And that's because I saw when we
00:17:51
were replicating, you know, enemy
00:17:53
tactics in 2015 in fighter jets, the gap
00:17:58
between our capabilities and the bad
00:17:59
guys was wide. And you felt very
00:18:02
confident and every year it started to
00:18:04
shrink. And it's like, what is going on
00:18:06
here? Why are we paralyzed? Why are we
00:18:08
slowing down while while the Chinese
00:18:11
especially are moving wicked fast? Um,
00:18:13
and I've spoken out about it from time
00:18:15
to time on where I think some of the
00:18:16
problems are and over consolidation of
00:18:18
the defense industry. So anyway, I I was
00:18:21
absolutely honored to have a chance to
00:18:22
serve. I'm sure Elon contributed into
00:18:24
the, you know, was supportive in it, but
00:18:26
it was a number of folks and I got a
00:18:28
call from Howard Lutnick, who was
00:18:30
leading the uh, transition team, and he
00:18:31
did a phone interview and the next thing
00:18:32
you know, like 40 hours later, I was at
00:18:34
Mara Lago. He said, "Hop on a plane.
00:18:36
Come out
00:18:38
here." Having a lot of friends of mine
00:18:41
who are serving in this administration,
00:18:44
your story sounds familiar that folks
00:18:48
that are close to this whole group that
00:18:51
was sitting at Mara Lago for several
00:18:54
weeks and months after the
00:18:57
election. I've heard a lot of similar
00:18:59
stories that folks got called saying,
00:19:01
"Hey, would you like to consider
00:19:03
something?" And it was very open-ended.
00:19:05
It's like we've gotten to know you. We
00:19:07
trust you. You're reliable. But most
00:19:09
importantly, we're looking for folks
00:19:11
that have experience and acumen in
00:19:14
operating a business, in understanding
00:19:16
how to manage at scale, and really have
00:19:19
a similar sort of belief system, I would
00:19:21
say, to the folks that that were
00:19:22
stepping in to run this administration.
00:19:24
So, I I do think what you're saying
00:19:26
sounds like what I've heard and makes a
00:19:28
lot of sense to me. Um, so so you then
00:19:30
fly out to Mara Lago. What was that
00:19:31
like? Oh man, that was so cool. I mean
00:19:34
it just happened so suddenly and I I
00:19:36
mean just you know kind of put together
00:19:39
uh a quick plan. Uh, at that point I
00:19:42
knew it was consideration for NASA
00:19:44
administrator, but I'll tell you in the
00:19:46
days leading up to it, I was hearing
00:19:47
everything from being at the Treasury
00:19:49
Department in various roles and to um,
00:19:52
you know, again to the Department of the
00:19:53
Air Force, but I knew it was NASA and I
00:19:55
was like, well, I got to I got to come
00:19:57
with a plan and uh, and I, you know, we
00:20:00
put together a one pager for the
00:20:02
president and it was a it was a great
00:20:05
interview. I mean, I never really met
00:20:07
him in person. and I shook his hand kind
00:20:08
of once in passing uh 10 plus years
00:20:11
earlier and the president was incredibly
00:20:14
knowledgeable. Um I was impressed. He
00:20:16
knew a lot about the space program which
00:20:18
makes sense. He I mean you know he
00:20:21
helped with commercial crew return
00:20:22
operational capability to the US with
00:20:24
with
00:20:25
Dragon. You know a big push on the
00:20:27
Artemis program created the space force.
00:20:29
He knew a lot he knew a lot about China.
00:20:31
Uh he kn we talked a lot about their air
00:20:33
force actually which I thought was
00:20:34
interesting. some of my my um you know
00:20:36
defense experience and uh it was
00:20:39
incredible. I mean it was an hour plus
00:20:40
long and I um I uh I came away with it
00:20:43
feeling uh you know really good about
00:20:45
the opportunity. Who coached you on your
00:20:47
one page there and what did it say?
00:20:49
Nobody coached me on it. It was it was
00:20:51
just I generally you know I've had an
00:20:53
opportunity to obviously interact with
00:20:54
NASA over the last I mean my my
00:20:56
commercial space career now goes on uh
00:20:58
well it'll be it'll be 5 years in a in a
00:21:01
couple months from when it began. And
00:21:03
you know during Polaris storm when we
00:21:05
were doing suit development spent a lot
00:21:06
of time at NASA using their chambers and
00:21:08
facilities had a lot of you know kind of
00:21:10
firsthand experience certainly Kennedy
00:21:11
Space Center. So I had a good starting
00:21:13
place and uh I think it really just
00:21:15
centered on look in in in this kind of
00:21:18
environment budgets aren't getting
00:21:20
bigger. Uh we do have to do more with
00:21:22
less. The agency is doing a lot of
00:21:25
littles a lot of things that other
00:21:26
agencies departments companies are
00:21:28
capable of doing. That's not why the
00:21:30
taxpayers fund NASA. Like NASA's funded
00:21:32
to do the near impossible that no one
00:21:34
else can do, not things that, you know,
00:21:36
companies should be doing for their own
00:21:38
competitiveness. You know, uh NASA helps
00:21:40
fund like engine efficiency programs for
00:21:44
you know um commercial jet engine
00:21:46
providers. It's like don't they need to
00:21:48
do that themselves or else they lose to
00:21:49
their competitors? Like why are we
00:21:51
funding this? So basically like an idea
00:21:53
to kind of go in stop a lot of the
00:21:55
littles that are not needle movers that
00:21:57
are not why the agency exists and
00:21:59
concentrate on the needle movers. So,
00:22:02
you know, that's leading in the high
00:22:03
ground of space. Uh, let's get let's,
00:22:05
you know, let's complete our our lunar
00:22:06
obligations cuz that's a whole another
00:22:08
story with with China. At the same time,
00:22:11
parallel the the, you know, parallel the
00:22:13
capabilities to get to Mars, help
00:22:14
commercial industry uh, develop the the
00:22:17
rapid reusable heavy lift capability
00:22:19
that allows us to go anywhere, pivot
00:22:21
from competing with industry to doing
00:22:23
what no company would ever do, which is
00:22:25
build nuclear spaceships. There's a lot
00:22:27
of advantages to it. nuclear electric
00:22:29
propulsion for sure. You know, we don't
00:22:31
have to worry as much about refilling.
00:22:33
It's hyperefficient transport of mass.
00:22:35
It opens up, you know, beyond Mars. And
00:22:38
and frankly, like look, it takes the
00:22:40
pressure off insitu resource
00:22:41
manufacturing. And if you are going to
00:22:43
do insitu resource manufacturing, you're
00:22:45
going to need nuclear power. And the
00:22:46
farther we get away from the sun, the
00:22:47
less reliant we are on solar. A lot of
00:22:49
reasons why that should not be a small
00:22:51
program in the lab right now doing light
00:22:53
bulbs, but should be a billion dollar
00:22:55
initiative. you know, figuring out the
00:22:57
space economy and uh increasing the rate
00:22:59
of world changing discovery. Those have
00:23:01
been my priorities. Uh it's what I told
00:23:03
briefed the president. It's what I went
00:23:04
through the Senate and the hearing on.
00:23:06
It's what we would have tried to
00:23:08
concentrate on if I got the job. There's
00:23:09
a lot in there we should
00:23:11
unpack. I want to just get your
00:23:15
perspective on the arc of NASA. You
00:23:17
know, NASA is a storied
00:23:20
institution, inspirational to many.
00:23:24
You and me the same. I still wear a NASA
00:23:26
hat with pride often, but you know, the
00:23:30
agency from an outsers's perspective
00:23:33
feels like it's become a lagard. It
00:23:35
feels like it's kind of lost a little
00:23:36
bit of its luster. Why is that? Do I
00:23:39
have that wrong? And if I don't, what
00:23:42
has happened to the administration of
00:23:44
the agency over the decades that's led
00:23:46
to this this moment? Well, I like you, I
00:23:49
love NASA, and I was so excited to to
00:23:51
contribute. I was honored that the
00:23:53
president nominated me. I mean, you've
00:23:54
got the best and brightest that show up
00:23:56
to work every day and want to win in the
00:23:58
high ground of space and I would have
00:23:59
been thrilled to work alongside him.
00:24:00
You're totally right. Everything about
00:24:02
it, even that just looking at the
00:24:03
insignia, how how damn inspiring it is,
00:24:06
but NASA's got problems and um but
00:24:09
that's that look that's not unique to
00:24:11
them. It's going to be governmentwide.
00:24:12
Whatever I tell you that I think is
00:24:13
wrong with NASA, I would guarantee it,
00:24:16
you know, is uh like, you know, it's
00:24:18
systemic across uh every government
00:24:20
agency and department. Uh the
00:24:22
bureaucracy is super real. No one's
00:24:24
gonna be surprised about that. You know
00:24:26
the you have dozens of layers of
00:24:28
leadership. Everybody's got a deputy. I
00:24:31
mean you know things that you know I
00:24:33
know like you know we know in business
00:24:35
that certainly Elon knows and instills
00:24:36
in his companies across commercial space
00:24:38
like ownership like you push ownership
00:24:40
down to the lowest levels. You empower
00:24:42
the smart people to make good decisions.
00:24:44
You know you give them the tools to make
00:24:46
those good decisions. You hold them
00:24:47
accountable when you get them wrong.
00:24:48
That does not exist inside NASA or the
00:24:50
government. There is so many layers of
00:24:52
management. Everybody's got a deputy.
00:24:54
It's crazy. I would have deleted all
00:24:55
that. Like not that not the people don't
00:24:56
need to go, but they need to, you know,
00:24:58
the the the amount of deputies,
00:25:00
assistants, associate assistant to the
00:25:02
deputy, the amount of committees, the
00:25:04
meetings with 200 people on them, the
00:25:07
review boards, like like all that needs
00:25:10
to go. You need so many more doers. And
00:25:12
there's a lot of them there. They're
00:25:14
really smart, but you you got to push
00:25:15
down uh you know, ownership to the
00:25:17
absolute lowest level. So you you got
00:25:19
this crushing bureaucracy that impedes
00:25:21
progress. And then and here's where
00:25:22
Congress plays a role. Every state's got
00:25:25
some equity that they care about and
00:25:27
they protect like hell and it impedes
00:25:29
the big progress. You know, like I I
00:25:31
tell you, I I love talking to all the
00:25:33
senators and the Senate was so fair to
00:25:34
me and and I know I would have had a lot
00:25:36
of great votes, but you talk to some
00:25:38
senators and they're like, you know, we
00:25:39
have a local rocket club that supports
00:25:42
these schools and NASA contributes it to
00:25:44
every year and I want to make sure that
00:25:45
continues. It's like, well, why can't
00:25:46
you do a car wash for the rocket club?
00:25:48
Like, this isn't huge dollars. Why can't
00:25:50
the community raise those funds? And
00:25:52
then you might say, well, what's wrong
00:25:54
with a couple rocket clubs, you know, to
00:25:55
inspire the kids all across the country?
00:25:57
Well, well, one turns to 10 turns to
00:25:59
thousands, and it becomes a distraction.
00:26:02
Those are parts to delete. Those are
00:26:03
resources that are draining away from
00:26:05
what every senator should care about,
00:26:07
which is how do we get to the moon, get
00:26:09
to Mars, and shock the world with, you
00:26:11
know, with with with world changing
00:26:13
headlines. That's what people are are
00:26:15
waiting for from NASA, you know, 100%. I
00:26:18
mean, man, what you're saying resonates
00:26:19
with me so much. It's not just NASA.
00:26:21
It's across the federal government. I've
00:26:23
spent enough time now interacting with
00:26:26
folks and meeting with folks and hearing
00:26:28
similar stories. It's just the chaos
00:26:30
that that builds with scale, with age,
00:26:33
with bureaucracy, with competing
00:26:35
interests that all have to be met and
00:26:37
you end up diluting everything away.
00:26:39
It's so frustrating to hear that. I
00:26:41
think this does play into um why China
00:26:45
is is really just moving at at lightning
00:26:48
speed right now. They have this immense
00:26:50
second mover advantage that is um that
00:26:53
is crushing across all technology. You
00:26:55
know when you had the Manhattan project
00:26:58
we uh we had the the technical knowhow,
00:27:00
the will and the resources to get
00:27:02
something done and we set up facilities
00:27:04
where we needed them. you know, Oakidge
00:27:07
and Lawrence Liverour and um you know,
00:27:09
like you know, you get um you put the
00:27:12
facilities where you need them and the
00:27:13
talent where you need them to execute on
00:27:15
the mission and everything builds up
00:27:17
logically to it and you and you deliver
00:27:18
a win. And we did the same thing with
00:27:20
the space program, you know, in the in
00:27:22
the in the 1960s. Well, now all of those
00:27:25
national labs and all and really
00:27:27
honestly a lot of the facilities within
00:27:28
NASA are doing lots of little things for
00:27:31
existence. Um and some of them are
00:27:33
relevant to the mission and some are
00:27:35
not. And when you try and do something,
00:27:37
you know, glorious now, you have to try
00:27:40
and repurpose those resources that are
00:27:42
super entrenched and they don't want to
00:27:43
necessarily move. And then, of course,
00:27:44
you have Congress that's protecting
00:27:45
their programs. China is literally doing
00:27:47
what we are do what we did, you know, in
00:27:50
the in the ' 40s and 60s and saying,
00:27:52
we're going to, hey, we're going to go
00:27:53
after fusion, um, or we're going to work
00:27:55
on next generation fifth gen nuclear
00:27:57
reactors. We're going to build sixthgen
00:27:58
fighter jets. And they put the
00:27:59
facilities where they belong with the
00:28:01
right people and resources. There's no
00:28:03
baggage. and they have this incredible
00:28:05
second mover advantage and they're able
00:28:07
to get things done at lightning speeds
00:28:08
because they don't have all that drag
00:28:10
and we have a lot of drag and again it's
00:28:12
not just NASA it's it's governmentwide
00:28:14
and do you think there's a way to fix it
00:28:18
without Congress or is the only way to
00:28:20
fix it without
00:28:22
Congress
00:28:24
meaning there needs to be no Congress if
00:28:27
we have a shot at fixing this and there
00:28:29
needs to be a different governing model.
00:28:31
Yeah. You know, look, I I think the uh I
00:28:34
think this is this is why I I absolutely
00:28:36
support the the president that, you
00:28:38
know, despite all I I mean, I my single
00:28:40
largest political donation ever was to
00:28:42
was to President Trump in this uh you
00:28:44
know, to support his inauguration. It's
00:28:46
why I got charged up with uh you know,
00:28:48
with Elon assembling the Doge team is
00:28:50
like we do have to shrink the
00:28:52
government. We do have to get rid of all
00:28:53
these inefficiencies, these the waste
00:28:55
and the distractions from the mission,
00:28:57
things that we don't need every taxpayer
00:28:59
contributing to and actually concentrate
00:29:01
those dollars, real dollars, on the
00:29:03
things that the taxpayers should be
00:29:05
fighting for. And when you do that, you
00:29:07
know what, like 20 billion or 25 billion
00:29:09
is actually a lot of money. And you
00:29:11
know, and I know like it's it's a super
00:29:12
tough budget environment right now. And
00:29:14
people people hate change, but I'm
00:29:16
always surprised when like a million is
00:29:17
not a million anymore and a billion is
00:29:19
not a billion because you do an awful
00:29:21
awful lot with that. So, if there was
00:29:23
ever a time to get this done, uh it's
00:29:25
now with President Trump with when he
00:29:27
has the House and the Senate behind him
00:29:29
and and I'm not surprised that there is
00:29:31
frustration from from people that were
00:29:33
really passionate um and and and are
00:29:35
still passionate when uh when this much
00:29:37
time goes by and we're not able to get
00:29:39
those things done that we thought we
00:29:40
we'd be able to. So, NASA's budget last
00:29:44
year, $25 billion. Break it down for us.
00:29:47
How is that money being spent?
00:29:50
what are the dimensions upon which you
00:29:52
would kind of categorize that budget?
00:29:54
Um, and we'll talk about kind of what's
00:29:56
going forward.
00:29:58
Yeah, I mean, look, I I think an
00:30:01
incredibly large portion of it is with
00:30:03
human space flight and uh and
00:30:05
specifically uh the Aremis program and
00:30:08
SLS and it's a lot of billions going to
00:30:12
a disposable rocket. It is billions that
00:30:14
when I you're talking so I mean I think
00:30:16
it's like five or 600% overrun to build
00:30:19
the mobile launcher 2 for the next
00:30:21
generation SLS. So sorry just tell us
00:30:24
what SLS is for the audience. That's the
00:30:26
space launch system I think or it's uh
00:30:29
they also call it the Senate launch
00:30:31
system I think and uh it's spread across
00:30:34
um a lot of dollars are spread across
00:30:36
some key states. Well just to give you
00:30:38
an idea so SLS is just repurposed
00:30:41
shuttle hardware. So, uh, and I don't
00:30:44
blame anyone for putting us down this
00:30:46
path because at the time you did not
00:30:48
have Blue Origin or SpaceX or any of
00:30:49
these other commercial companies doing
00:30:50
the things that are doing today, but
00:30:52
they were like, "Let's, uh, let's take
00:30:54
the shuttle program parts and put into a
00:30:55
program called Constellation, and let's
00:30:57
take the Constellation parts and put it
00:30:59
in a program called uh, SLS." And and
00:31:02
essentially, again, it's the it's it's
00:31:04
it's it's the same shuttle motors. It's
00:31:06
the same solid rocket boosters. You're
00:31:08
basically taking the tank and putting
00:31:10
Orion on top of it. Orion is 20 years
00:31:12
old, by the way. It hasn't flown humans
00:31:13
yet. And it's incredibly expensive and
00:31:15
very disposable, but it creates a lot of
00:31:17
jobs in certain states and um and it's
00:31:20
like at some and look, there's enough
00:31:22
hardware now to fly a couple missions
00:31:23
and make sure you beat China back to the
00:31:25
moon. But but you can't be stuck on this
00:31:26
forever. This is literally the
00:31:28
equivalency, by the way, of taking P-51
00:31:30
Mustangs from World War II and using
00:31:32
them in Desert Storm because uh we got
00:31:34
to keep the plants open. And that
00:31:36
obviously makes no no logical sense
00:31:38
whatsoever for factories that are making
00:31:40
this stuff that used to make landing
00:31:42
ships in World War II that made Saturn
00:31:44
rocket that pivoted to shuttle to SLS
00:31:46
and now to believe that you can't make
00:31:48
another pivot is is kind of crazy and
00:31:50
the right thing you should pivot towards
00:31:51
honestly is nuclear. I want to just talk
00:31:53
about the the Trump budget proposal for
00:31:55
NASA. So this is the NASA budget over
00:31:59
the history of NASA. And
00:32:02
the proposed budget would basically
00:32:05
create the lowest budget since
00:32:09
1961. So they're proposing to reduce the
00:32:12
overall budget from 25 billion a year
00:32:14
down to 19 billion a year. Were you part
00:32:17
of the conversation on building this
00:32:20
budget? And then I'll highlight some of
00:32:22
the features of this budget here in a
00:32:23
moment. But did did you um have
00:32:25
conversations with the administration as
00:32:28
this was being put together and some of
00:32:29
these proposals were being considered? I
00:32:30
mean, how how deep have you gone in
00:32:32
this? No, you know, when you're a
00:32:33
nominee, you're actually kept in the
00:32:35
dark on a lot of things. Um you do get
00:32:37
briefed on everything that's going on
00:32:39
with every center, you know, every major
00:32:41
program, things that senators could ask
00:32:43
you about from a um from like a
00:32:45
one-on-one perspective, but you're not
00:32:46
given access to sensitive information.
00:32:48
you almost need some deniability when
00:32:50
you're talking to senators on that or
00:32:53
else your nominations could get held up
00:32:54
really big time. So, I wasn't aware I
00:32:57
honestly uh I was voted out of
00:32:59
committee, you know, uh the commerce
00:33:00
committee by um you know, Senator Cruz
00:33:02
and and you know, 18 other it was 19
00:33:05
senators in total. And the next day, the
00:33:07
skinny budget came out. And if that
00:33:09
skinny budget had come out uh you know
00:33:11
again a day or two earlier I would I
00:33:13
would never have made it out of
00:33:14
committee because obviously as as I
00:33:16
think is playing out right now both
00:33:18
sides of the aisle are not happy about
00:33:20
the you know the budget. Okay. So, in
00:33:23
this budget, there's a proposal to
00:33:25
cancel
00:33:26
SLS and Orion, terminate numerous
00:33:30
robotic science missions, including the
00:33:32
Mars sample return mission. Mhm. Um,
00:33:35
probes to Venus, and several future
00:33:38
space telescopes. And it represents the
00:33:40
White House's desire to end the
00:33:42
development of a nuclear thermal rocket
00:33:45
engine. I guess having scrutinized this
00:33:47
budget, how do you react to what you see
00:33:49
being proposed? And does it solve what
00:33:52
you've identified as some of the
00:33:54
challenges in NASA? Or are those more
00:33:56
management challenges? Does budget
00:33:58
create a constraining force here that
00:34:00
fixes some of the issues with respect to
00:34:02
focus and concentration of capital into
00:34:04
the right projects for from your point
00:34:06
of view? Yeah, it's a it's a it's an
00:34:08
excellent question. So So first, like
00:34:10
look, the the the reduction the big
00:34:13
budget reduction is a great forcing
00:34:15
function for change. And I know there's
00:34:17
a lot of people that probably don't want
00:34:18
to don't want to hear that, but uh it is
00:34:20
true. That doesn't mean I would have
00:34:22
landed at 19 billion in this whole
00:34:24
thing, but I fully support uh the
00:34:26
president and uh with the goal of
00:34:29
shrinking the budget and and and and
00:34:31
getting back to responsible footing and
00:34:32
I do think billions can go a very long
00:34:34
way. So uh I will just start with that.
00:34:37
I I everything you just said
00:34:39
directionally is is is kind of in the
00:34:40
right direction. We've already got paid
00:34:41
for enough SLS hardware that if you were
00:34:43
to terminate for convenience now, you
00:34:45
got enough to launch like two or three
00:34:47
of them. It's enough to get you back to
00:34:48
the moon, check that box to make sure
00:34:50
that you don't have any economic or
00:34:52
scientific or national security reasons
00:34:54
to stay on the moon and and put your
00:34:56
energy much more towards um commercial
00:34:57
industry. Look, nuclear thermal uh
00:34:59
propulsion I'm not a fan of. I like
00:35:02
nuclear electric. Nuclear thermal to
00:35:03
test it, you're spewing radioactive
00:35:05
debris here on Earth. It's not going to
00:35:06
go over well to anyone and it doesn't
00:35:08
really solve your refueling problem. you
00:35:10
still need to top it off with hydrogen
00:35:12
in space if you want a reusable space
00:35:14
plug. So I don't like that either. And
00:35:15
and it's subscale. It's it's a fact.
00:35:18
It's a program that sits in a lab
00:35:19
forever. Like what you need in nuclear
00:35:22
electric I'm passionate on the subject
00:35:23
is you you need us to get back to the
00:35:24
good old days. Like we went from the
00:35:26
atomic bomb in 1945 to laying the keel
00:35:29
on the nautilus in 1951. Five six years.
00:35:32
We didn't keep it in a lab forever. We
00:35:33
said, you know what, we're going to do
00:35:35
big bold things. And that's what we need
00:35:37
to be doing with uh in space with when
00:35:38
it comes to uh to nuclear. Look, a lot
00:35:41
of the science programs I'm huge fans of
00:35:43
Mars sample return. The best thing to do
00:35:45
is when the astronauts get there to
00:35:47
bring the samples home. Why would we
00:35:49
spend billions to send a robotic
00:35:50
mission? We can put that into commercial
00:35:52
industry and accelerate their timeline.
00:35:54
So, I'm not I I wasn't a fan of a pure
00:35:56
robotic mission on that one. And you
00:35:58
know, a lot of the big science programs
00:35:59
I want to see James Webs and Hubble
00:36:01
telescope programs launching annually,
00:36:04
if not more. Um, flagship programs
00:36:07
definitionally are billion dollar spends
00:36:10
and if you spend a billion then you got
00:36:11
to get it right and that means lots of
00:36:13
requirements and and and we can't take
00:36:15
unnecessary risk and a billion becomes a
00:36:16
three billion program and it's never on
00:36:18
time. Like we should be challenging the
00:36:19
best and brightest. Give me 10 $100
00:36:22
million missions a year. Let's try that
00:36:24
and let's accept that three fail and get
00:36:26
act you know I was going to introduce
00:36:28
like time to science as a KPI like how
00:36:32
why don't why do we accept things taking
00:36:34
10 years when they could be a year even
00:36:35
the decal process of of prioritizing
00:36:37
scientific missions over a 10-year span
00:36:40
is kind of insane 100% 100% and I I
00:36:45
think a lot of people hear budget cuts
00:36:46
and I I hear this on the NIH side as
00:36:49
well now that the administration and
00:36:51
budget cutting is going to take lives
00:36:53
people going lose lives. We're going to
00:36:54
lose science. This is an anti-science
00:36:57
agenda. But the if you can get more
00:37:00
efficient with how you deploy capital
00:37:03
and how you manage the deployment of
00:37:05
that capital and the utilization of that
00:37:06
capital, you actually accelerate
00:37:08
science. You accelerate outcomes and you
00:37:11
improve the condition and the prosperity
00:37:13
for humanity and for America. And it's
00:37:16
completely a misdirected statement when
00:37:18
people say that a budget cut is an
00:37:20
anti-science movement. It's about
00:37:22
finding the right places so that you get
00:37:24
more outcomes and redeploy in a smarter,
00:37:26
more efficient way. It drives me nuts. I
00:37:28
just see it, you know, all over uh right
00:37:30
now. That's just I mean it's just
00:37:32
politics. I do think overfunding leads
00:37:34
to complacency, leads to bureaucracy,
00:37:36
which actually leads to a slowdown in
00:37:39
discovery, a slowdown in invention, a
00:37:41
slowdown in progress. Anyway, I'm sorry
00:37:42
for my rant. I agree. Look, as I mean,
00:37:44
as entrepreneurs, we know like some of
00:37:45
our probably best decision-m is always
00:37:47
when we were running low on cash. So,
00:37:49
um, you know, it kind of drives
00:37:50
efficiency and, uh, it is a, you know,
00:37:53
necessity, mother of all invention
00:37:54
there. Yeah. Look, I think that's just a
00:37:56
product of some of our and I'm not
00:37:57
familiar with any of the NIH or and I'm
00:37:58
I'm not pretending to go deep on that at
00:38:00
all. Just I do think this is kind of a
00:38:02
product of of of the politics of our
00:38:04
time. It's a very divided country. You
00:38:05
know, people have to take an opposing
00:38:07
view and and and go to extremes. People
00:38:09
will die over over this. But the
00:38:11
government is terrible capital
00:38:12
allocators. Come on. We should all know
00:38:14
that. And you know we should as
00:38:16
taxpayers we should be contributing to
00:38:17
the things that no one else is willing
00:38:19
to do where there is no good business
00:38:20
use case or or economic model you know
00:38:23
it is in you know if competition is
00:38:25
working they can solve a lot of problems
00:38:27
and we should put our energy to what
00:38:28
they won't solve. Um and and look I
00:38:30
think Katzios by the way in science he's
00:38:32
a great leader. I I've spoken to him a
00:38:34
bunch of times. Um you know he he's not
00:38:36
a quag. He doesn't think wild things
00:38:38
like that. He he wants you know the
00:38:40
golden age of science and discovery. I'm
00:38:42
fair. Yeah. Good science. Yeah.
00:38:43
Absolutely. Well, let's talk about
00:38:45
Artemis. I think this is a big piece
00:38:47
that that the American public doesn't
00:38:49
fully gro that we have this effort and
00:38:53
maybe you can just lay out for us the
00:38:55
case for Artemis. Lay out for us the
00:38:58
case for Mars. Tell us about the
00:39:01
relationship between the two and the
00:39:03
timelines. Sure. And why Yeah. Why are
00:39:05
we doing them? Let's just say I I am in
00:39:07
the return to the moon camp. doesn't
00:39:08
mean like uh you know I and I'm I know
00:39:11
that you know Elon is very focused on on
00:39:14
Mars and he has a lot of great reasons
00:39:16
why including just the survival of our
00:39:18
species. I mean the long term it is the
00:39:20
right move. I remember um during my
00:39:23
hearing uh one senator was really
00:39:24
grilling me a lot of like what really
00:39:26
what's the difference between you know
00:39:28
moon and Mars and uh you know isn't
00:39:30
moons a stepping stone. I'm like well
00:39:31
one's a planet you know and uh you know
00:39:33
it has an atmosphere and if you looked
00:39:35
at the moon it doesn't look pretty. I
00:39:37
mean, it's getting beat up all the time.
00:39:38
It has no protection from, you know,
00:39:40
from solar radiation. So, reality is
00:39:43
like you should go to the moon if it
00:39:45
because for 35 years we said we were
00:39:47
going to. And I think that's very
00:39:49
important. You know, we it's it's it's
00:39:51
very late in the game to say, well, we
00:39:53
did it in the 60s and early 70s. You
00:39:56
know, that would have been the fine
00:39:57
position to state the entire time that
00:39:59
we've done it and we're moving on. But
00:40:01
we didn't. For 35 years, we said we're
00:40:03
going back and we spent over a hundred
00:40:05
billion of taxpayer dollars saying we
00:40:06
were going to do it. And for us not to
00:40:08
be able to do it now and watch China do
00:40:10
it. Like I said, it's it signals a far
00:40:12
greater disease across our our
00:40:14
government and and how our system
00:40:16
operates. And I don't think we want that
00:40:18
reckoning. So look, we paid for the
00:40:19
hardware anyway. We let's let's go back,
00:40:21
but let's parallel going to Mars. So
00:40:22
that's what Artemis is really about. I
00:40:24
mean, you can say Artemis is about Mars,
00:40:25
too, but that's like 100 years down the
00:40:27
line. And like I said, it's a giant
00:40:29
disposable rocket program that
00:40:30
repurposes shuttle hardware. It's
00:40:32
incredibly expensive. We signed up a lot
00:40:34
of international partners to support it
00:40:36
because we like collecting flags. Um,
00:40:39
and it doesn't necessarily always mean
00:40:41
that what they're contributing to is in
00:40:42
the best interest of the program. Case
00:40:44
in point, you know, we had, you know,
00:40:46
gateway man like this is going down a
00:40:48
rabbit hole of a lot of things because
00:40:49
of the shortcomings of the vehicle, but
00:40:51
it's expensive. It's disposable. it is
00:40:53
not the way to do uh affordable,
00:40:56
repeatable, efficient exploration
00:40:58
whether it's to moon, Mars or anywhere
00:41:00
else. So let's get it done and then
00:41:02
focus on the on the right way to go
00:41:04
about doing this so that we're not
00:41:05
seeing people walk on the moon every 5
00:41:07
years or something crazy that it's
00:41:09
happening all the time which is what we
00:41:10
get excited about. What is there to do
00:41:12
on the moon? Why should we go back? What
00:41:14
is the purpose? I think, you know, it's
00:41:16
it's it's almost like a, you know, if
00:41:18
you're going to go and commit yourself
00:41:20
uh take risks in a in a conflict, you
00:41:22
know, you want clear objectives. And in
00:41:24
my mind, again, aside from the fact that
00:41:26
the hardware is already essentially
00:41:28
purchased, it's clear objectives. Is
00:41:30
there any economic, scientific, or
00:41:32
national security reasons to be here?
00:41:34
And I don't think we can say that
00:41:35
conclusively right now that that there
00:41:37
are none. and China is going uh and if
00:41:40
they were to find something even a small
00:41:42
probability a 1% let's just say
00:41:44
hypothetically it's helium 3 and and
00:41:46
they're going to usher in a new form of
00:41:47
power. Think about how many conflicts
00:41:49
that we've had over the last century
00:41:53
over uh over sources of power over
00:41:55
energy. Do we want to get that one
00:41:57
wrong? And and are we willing to take a
00:41:59
1% chance and and that could shift the
00:42:01
balance of power here on Earth? I don't
00:42:03
think so. And we said we were going to
00:42:04
do it for 35 years and we and we spent
00:42:06
100 billion of taxpayer money. Like I
00:42:07
said, the hardware is there. But I think
00:42:08
you do it. You make those
00:42:09
determinations. Is there scientific,
00:42:11
economic or national security reason to
00:42:13
be here? And if not, you move on. And if
00:42:15
companies like Blue Origin and SpaceX
00:42:18
and even Rocket Lab are successful with
00:42:20
their vehicles, you're going to have
00:42:21
like the optionality to go to the moon.
00:42:23
It's not the Delta V is a negligible
00:42:25
difference between whether you're going
00:42:26
to the moon or Mars. And we should
00:42:28
colonize Mars. We should build a colony
00:42:30
on Mars. I think we need to go there. Um
00:42:34
and by going there it is a it is the
00:42:36
first step on a far grander journey you
00:42:39
know and uh you know I I I you know Elon
00:42:41
is obviously very passionate about it
00:42:43
occupy Mars like he knows it's not the
00:42:44
perfect destination there's nothing like
00:42:46
you can you know it's unlike anything in
00:42:48
in Earth's history you know people say
00:42:51
it's analoges to you know the explorers
00:42:53
of the 1400s or putting people in like
00:42:55
those shipping containers for six months
00:42:56
and saying we know how to live on Mars
00:42:58
it's you know you could work
00:43:00
your whole life on Mars and you still
00:43:02
live in a bubble
00:43:03
You know, so it's not like it's not
00:43:05
going to be an easy way of life, but it
00:43:07
is a step in the right direction. Like
00:43:09
our destiny is out and among the stars.
00:43:11
Like we will inevitably learn something
00:43:14
out there that's going to change our
00:43:16
thinking and we it's going to it's going
00:43:18
to create a a craving for that knowledge
00:43:20
and we are going to want to continue to
00:43:22
go out and explore and learn even more.
00:43:24
Mars is the best stop first step on that
00:43:27
journey. So, let's talk about getting
00:43:30
there and achieving some of the other
00:43:32
missions that we might have as a
00:43:34
country, as a
00:43:35
species, and the relationship with
00:43:38
private
00:43:39
industry. Elon believes he can get
00:43:42
payload into orbit for $10 per kilogram
00:43:44
with the Starship platform, which is,
00:43:47
call it a roughly 100x reduction in
00:43:49
cost. Yeah. Um maybe more. Maybe from
00:43:52
some from a depending on the point at
00:43:54
which you're measuring it, maybe a
00:43:55
thousandx reduction in cost. And that
00:43:58
unlocks the potential to do these things
00:44:00
in an economically viable way. Going to
00:44:02
the moon, going to
00:44:04
Mars.
00:44:06
Why shouldn't NASA be more fully
00:44:10
embracing of this private industry
00:44:13
capability? Is it because it's Elon or
00:44:16
is it because it reduces money going to
00:44:19
defense contractors? What is the
00:44:21
motivation against going all in on this
00:44:25
company SpaceX or companies like it that
00:44:29
have built these competencies that would
00:44:30
have been unfathomable just a few
00:44:32
decades ago but are real here today? Oh,
00:44:35
this is such a a deep conversation. Uh
00:44:39
so, um look, I I one thing I'd say is
00:44:42
like I obviously I love SpaceX and they
00:44:44
safely put me into space twice on two
00:44:46
awesome missions, brought me home and
00:44:47
I'm cheering them on. I I'm I'm happy
00:44:49
what SpaceX is doing. I'm thrilled about
00:44:51
the investments that Blue Origin's
00:44:52
doing, that Rocket Lab is doing, you
00:44:55
know, uh Firefly. So, it's a look, we
00:44:57
have a great industry. So, the broader
00:44:59
question is just why isn't why isn't
00:45:00
NASA leaning more into commercial? Well,
00:45:02
look, it's NASA's foresight that gave
00:45:04
birth to the commercial crew program
00:45:06
that enabled even me to go to space. So,
00:45:08
like they are thinking in that
00:45:08
direction, but there are politics in
00:45:10
play. The nice thing is is those winds
00:45:12
are shifting uh throughout my you know,
00:45:15
whole confirmation process. you know,
00:45:17
you are educated heavily by some very
00:45:19
smart political folks. Uh they sherpa
00:45:21
you around every senator and they were
00:45:23
like, look, the, you know, a year ago,
00:45:26
two years ago, the idea of talking to
00:45:28
senators that are in SLS states and
00:45:30
convincing them we need to be looking a
00:45:32
little bit more to the future with
00:45:33
commercial and maybe pivoting to things
00:45:34
like nuclear propulsion would be a
00:45:37
non-starter. And I'll tell you, they
00:45:38
were very reasonable. uh all of them
00:45:40
were very reasonable that they know that
00:45:42
you're you know this this rocket built
00:45:45
on 60-y old technology that's $4.5
00:45:47
billion a launch has an expiration date.
00:45:50
So I do think like that ship is turning.
00:45:52
It's just this isn't like a this isn't a
00:45:54
speedboat. The government, you know,
00:45:55
it's a it's turning like it's a giant,
00:45:58
you know, shipping container. It turns a
00:45:59
half a degree like a year and uh and
00:46:01
that's not obviously fast enough for a
00:46:03
lot of us. Um but I would say it's
00:46:05
moving in that uh that direction. And
00:46:07
then NASA also has to, you know,
00:46:09
repurpose its resources on things that a
00:46:11
SpaceX or Blue Origin won't do. They're
00:46:13
not going to put a rock, they're not
00:46:14
going to build a nuclear reactor and
00:46:15
launch it. Uh you're not going to get
00:46:17
the indemnities for that. Even shipping
00:46:20
highlyenriched uranium is a nightmare.
00:46:22
That is what the government should be
00:46:23
doing. Like so NASA should be doing what
00:46:25
the commercial industries can't. And
00:46:27
that by the way takes so much stress off
00:46:28
a company like SpaceX trying to get to
00:46:30
Mars. Like if you can minimize the
00:46:32
number of space-based refueling or the
00:46:34
insitu resource manufacturing, look,
00:46:36
even when a starship gets to Mars,
00:46:38
you're betting on like you know a 100
00:46:40
consecutive miracles happening to top to
00:46:43
mine propellant there and bring it back.
00:46:45
NASA should be helping. The government
00:46:46
should be helping with that because it
00:46:48
it creates a lot of other optionality.
00:46:49
We can have you know nuclear battle
00:46:51
stars in lower Earth orbit um you know
00:46:53
as part of uh Golden Dome. There's a lot
00:46:55
of reasons why you know it's not all
00:46:57
SpaceX all commercial versus NASA. both
00:47:00
totally. So just to compare last week
00:47:03
Space Epoch, a Chinese rocket company
00:47:06
completed its first sea recovery test.
00:47:09
So much like we saw a few years ago with
00:47:11
SpaceX, they had a vertical launch and
00:47:13
they landed back in the ocean about 125
00:47:16
second flight. The key question a lot of
00:47:18
folks are now asking, has China caught
00:47:20
up? Is this a space race? Why does it
00:47:23
matter? Because isn't space big enough
00:47:25
for everyone?
00:47:27
I mean the space is the ultimate high
00:47:29
ground and the high ground has mattered
00:47:31
you know it's had tactical and strategic
00:47:33
significance since like the beginning of
00:47:34
humankind. It matters. I was grateful to
00:47:37
have the opportunity to lead you know
00:47:38
the peaceful exploration uh of space but
00:47:40
it's not all peaceful like we we we
00:47:42
can't be naive to the fact that it has
00:47:44
been
00:47:44
weaponized and you know China leading in
00:47:47
this domain makes a difference. Um there
00:47:50
are things of scientific and economic
00:47:52
and again national security value out
00:47:54
there and we we can't we have to lead we
00:47:57
can't fall behind. If we fall behind we
00:47:58
may never catch up. So and I am
00:48:00
concerned about that uh you know China
00:48:02
moving closer to reusability. They
00:48:04
launch the second most uh orbital
00:48:06
rockets every year without reusability.
00:48:08
Uh you know thank goodness for for
00:48:10
SpaceX or or we definitely be already
00:48:12
behind in that regard. So um I am
00:48:15
concerned about it. It it it honestly it
00:48:17
is a race and like yeah we we the domain
00:48:20
is vitally important we can't fall
00:48:21
behind. So that gives them the high
00:48:24
ground with respect to weapons systems
00:48:26
with respect to observational platforms
00:48:28
sensors etc. Right. Yeah. Okay. So so
00:48:32
let's talk a little bit about your
00:48:33
nomination. You seem I would give you my
00:48:35
vote. You should be the administrator of
00:48:36
NASA. It would be amazing. Um thanks.
00:48:39
You testified in front of the Senate
00:48:41
committee on April 9th. I think it was a
00:48:43
19 to9 vote to move you out of
00:48:45
committee. Yes. Then there were reports
00:48:48
going into this weekend that you were
00:48:49
going to
00:48:50
be voted on by the full Senate this week
00:48:53
and the estimates were you were going to
00:48:54
get 70 confirmation votes or that was
00:48:57
some news report I had read. So it seems
00:48:58
like you were going to fly right through
00:48:59
and administer NASA. Um so then what
00:49:03
happened? So I I mean I got a call um
00:49:06
Friday of last week that um you know the
00:49:10
uh the president has decided to go into
00:49:11
a uh go in a different direction. Uh it
00:49:15
was a um uh it was a real bummer and I
00:49:19
uh I know like a number of parties in
00:49:21
government need to be notified of that
00:49:22
which um you know I expected to kind of
00:49:25
have just a peaceful weekend and the
00:49:27
next thing I knew on Saturday you know
00:49:28
it was uh there was a lot of activity on
00:49:30
the internet but maybe that's just like
00:49:32
my perspective cuz I follow space uh and
00:49:34
and such but it was certainly uh you
00:49:36
know disappointing but uh you know the
00:49:38
president needs to have you know his
00:49:40
person that you know he counts on to to
00:49:42
fulfill the agenda And
00:49:45
um yeah, I uh the person that called
00:49:48
you, what was what did they tell you was
00:49:50
the reason the president was withdrawing
00:49:51
his nomination? Uh just said the
00:49:54
president had decided to go in a
00:49:55
different direction. We all serve at the
00:49:56
pleasure of the president. Um now I mean
00:49:59
I started to get some more details as it
00:50:01
went on. I honestly also like I'm not
00:50:03
like I don't like play dumb on this. I I
00:50:06
had a pretty good idea of um you know
00:50:09
that um you know I don't think that the
00:50:11
timing was much of a coincidence uh that
00:50:14
you know there was other changes going
00:50:16
on the same day and uh you know it was
00:50:19
kind of uh obviously a little bit of a a
00:50:21
disappointment. So are you referring to
00:50:24
Elon?
00:50:26
I I just you know there was uh obviously
00:50:30
there was more than more than one you
00:50:33
know departure that was covered on that
00:50:35
day and um it became uh you know at
00:50:38
least from what I what I've heard that
00:50:40
it was uh there was a um you know there
00:50:42
was and I'm just you know I read the
00:50:44
news same as everybody else but I you
00:50:45
know had obviously was in the in DC for
00:50:49
the last 6 months getting ready that you
00:50:50
know there were some people that um you
00:50:53
know that had some axes to grind I guess
00:50:55
and uh and I was a a good visible
00:50:59
uh target. I know that like the the news
00:51:01
talks a lot about like that, you know,
00:51:02
Democratic donations is the cause. Um
00:51:05
that was not a new development. You just
00:51:06
Google, you can they're all public. The
00:51:08
New York Times published an article
00:51:10
saying that President Trump knew about
00:51:12
your Democratic donations in the past
00:51:14
when you received the nomination. So
00:51:15
that was actually not news according to
00:51:18
the New York Times that that was well
00:51:20
understood, well covered. So kind of put
00:51:22
the kibos on that explanation. So what
00:51:25
are the axis to grind or the access to
00:51:27
grind with Elon? Are there kind of two
00:51:29
factions? Whatever you can kind of
00:51:31
provide some color on, I think it would
00:51:32
be really helpful to understand because
00:51:34
there's a lot of speculation going on
00:51:35
right now and I would say some folks are
00:51:38
really disappointed in some of the
00:51:39
transitions that are taking place and
00:51:41
some folks are really trying to grock it
00:51:42
and understand it. So anything you can
00:51:43
do to help folks understand would be,
00:51:45
you know, I think helpful. You know,
00:51:47
first I just I want to be overwhelmingly
00:51:48
clear. I I I don't fault the the
00:51:50
president at all. I fully support him
00:51:52
that you know the president of the
00:51:53
United States you know the leader of the
00:51:54
free world makes a thousand decisions a
00:51:56
day with seconds of information. He's
00:51:58
got to get a lot more right than wrong.
00:52:00
Um so I don't I mean you know I don't
00:52:02
blame you know an influential adviser
00:52:05
coming in and saying look here's the
00:52:07
facts and I think we should kill this
00:52:08
guy and the president's got to make a
00:52:09
call and move on. Um I think that's
00:52:11
exactly uh you know kind of how it went.
00:52:14
Um it was not the Senate at all. Uh you
00:52:17
don't get floor time by the way. uh you
00:52:19
know there's a hundred nominees that are
00:52:21
like waiting for floor time. The only
00:52:23
way you get floor time is when a lot of
00:52:25
senators you know call Senator Thoon and
00:52:27
say this is our guy and we got to move
00:52:28
him along. That's how you know it's like
00:52:30
a high you're going to get a high vote
00:52:32
count. So the Senate was very fair,
00:52:34
really nice. I I enjoyed that
00:52:36
experience. I you know I think you you
00:52:39
got one person um and I don't know the
00:52:42
history on like what the trigger was or
00:52:44
wasn't but um you know decided to to
00:52:47
kind of make a move and again I don't
00:52:49
fault the president for it at all but
00:52:51
you know look in in in terms of
00:52:52
donations I I've always been you know
00:52:55
somewhat of a moderate I actually like I
00:52:57
am like a right leaning I I I do support
00:52:59
you know the president's agenda that's
00:53:01
why I made as big of a donation as I did
00:53:03
to his cause. Let me just ask for
00:53:05
clarity. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. I was
00:53:07
just going to say like when you fill out
00:53:08
your questionnaire for the Senate
00:53:09
committee, which is public, it asks you
00:53:11
to list every donation. Before you go in
00:53:13
front of a single senator, before you do
00:53:15
a hearing, you do these um prep sessions
00:53:17
at the White House where people pretend
00:53:19
to be senators and they prep you on the
00:53:21
donation question. So like that wasn't
00:53:22
new news. Might have been new to the
00:53:24
president at that, you know, might have
00:53:26
refreshed his memory perhaps, but uh
00:53:28
that I don't I don't think that was the
00:53:29
cause. I think the media has got it
00:53:30
pretty accurate.
00:53:32
So, was this a shot at Elon by someone
00:53:35
that is anti- Elon?
00:53:38
I mean, you know, people can draw their
00:53:41
their own conclusions, but I I think the
00:53:43
direction that people are going is um or
00:53:45
thinking on this seems seems to check
00:53:47
out to me. And what is the root of that?
00:53:49
Is it vested interest in spending that
00:53:52
Elon is advocating gets cut? Is it
00:53:55
diametrically opposed philosophical
00:53:57
points of view on the role of
00:53:58
government? What is the root anti- Elon
00:54:00
sentiment?
00:54:02
that is kind of on the other side of the
00:54:04
equation here. Do you think I mean I
00:54:06
think that the uh the people
00:54:07
overwhelmingly voted for the president
00:54:10
to go in and shrink the government and
00:54:12
bring about change and get rid of fraud,
00:54:14
waste and abuse of which I am a
00:54:16
thousand% behind the president and I I
00:54:18
believe that that's what you know Elon
00:54:20
and Doge was working towards. But people
00:54:23
also hate change. Like we all know this
00:54:25
and um you know people can uh be very
00:54:28
protective of their empire and you know
00:54:30
when somebody comes in you know Elon's
00:54:32
got a playbook and I think he knows how
00:54:33
to get things done. And I and I I think
00:54:35
you know in a lot of respects that um
00:54:37
that rub some people or you know what I
00:54:39
think that was one of you know or um had
00:54:41
some axes to grind. I don't know. And uh
00:54:44
and um you know we're just waiting. I I
00:54:46
I don't I you know I don't want to
00:54:49
speculate on all this but yeah. No, I
00:54:51
mean, um, I think that that you've said
00:54:54
enough and I I
00:54:58
guess you've seen the tweets from Elon
00:55:00
today where he was pretty negative about
00:55:05
the House bill that is being labeled the
00:55:09
big beautiful bill, making the case that
00:55:12
it's actually going to drive up a
00:55:14
government deficit to over two trillion,
00:55:15
two half trillion dollars a year. It
00:55:17
doesn't make deep enough cuts. There's a
00:55:20
lot of pork in there, a lot of wasteful
00:55:21
spending in there. And then the House
00:55:24
Speaker today responded to Elon saying,
00:55:26
"Hey, we've still got a recision bill
00:55:28
coming. We've still got an appropriation
00:55:30
bill coming where we're going to start
00:55:31
to fix the budget." But clearly Elon is
00:55:34
now getting vocal about his point of
00:55:37
view on this. Have you spoken with him
00:55:38
at all about what's going on and
00:55:40
government spending and his kind of take
00:55:43
on things as he's walked out of the
00:55:44
office there? Well, you know, as you
00:55:46
know, I kind of mentioned, I told the
00:55:48
Senate, too, like I've only spoken to
00:55:49
Elon, you know, I don't know, a couple
00:55:51
dozen times, most of which related to
00:55:53
human space flight missions, but when I
00:55:54
was talking to him towards the end of
00:55:56
last year, it it was all on government
00:55:58
efficiency related programs. And I think
00:56:01
Elon got a lot of people excited about
00:56:04
Doge u by making like one simple point.
00:56:07
The interest rate on the national debt
00:56:09
exceeds, you know, the DoD budget.
00:56:11
that's scary and it's getting worse and
00:56:13
we can't spend our way out of this
00:56:15
problem. Um, which we've grown a habit
00:56:17
to doing and I know he's very passionate
00:56:19
about it and um, you know, he sacrificed
00:56:22
a lot along with all the others you know
00:56:23
at Doge to try and bring about some
00:56:25
significant you know spending cuts and
00:56:27
then you know to see a bill come in you
00:56:30
know uh whatever 1,200 pages or so that
00:56:32
you know adds you know to the deficit I
00:56:35
think was pretty you know pretty
00:56:36
disheartening. Uh I suspect I mean I'm
00:56:38
not I'm not um you know I'm not in this
00:56:41
uh in this fight and I think like trying
00:56:43
to codify like you know a handful of
00:56:46
billions in cuts probably is you know a
00:56:49
drop in the in the bucket. So I can't
00:56:51
imagine that's too exciting.
00:56:54
You think he's going to get more vocal?
00:56:57
I I I don't I wouldn't presume to know
00:57:01
what goes on through his mind. Like I
00:57:02
said, I think he spends a lot of time
00:57:04
trying to solve a lot of world's
00:57:05
problems and and a problem for this
00:57:06
country and I think a lot of people
00:57:07
agree with it is that the um you know
00:57:10
this national debt is just getting way
00:57:12
out of hand. I mean, this has been my
00:57:14
case for about four years that if we
00:57:16
don't fix this, it eventually becomes an
00:57:19
intractable death spiral. And uh when
00:57:22
that happens, all of the wrangling we're
00:57:25
doing over budget, priorities, programs,
00:57:28
interests,
00:57:29
jobs are no longer
00:57:31
possible. It's like you're trying to
00:57:34
rearrange the deck chairs on the
00:57:35
Titanic. You don't get the choice of
00:57:37
what programs to fund when there is no
00:57:38
funding. And that's the unfortunate
00:57:40
iceberg we're running into. Do you think
00:57:42
Doge is dead? Any point of view on that?
00:57:46
I mean, it was interesting. You know,
00:57:47
obviously there was kind of the grand
00:57:49
exit uh this past week and then I don't
00:57:51
know, at least in my Twitter feed, I try
00:57:52
and follow a lot of the cabinet
00:57:53
secretaries. You know, they were all
00:57:54
coming out and saying, you know, Doge is
00:57:57
alive and well embedded inside the I you
00:57:59
know, I think it was more implying that
00:58:00
like, you know, we're going to clean
00:58:02
house. We're going to take care of our
00:58:03
own house as opposed to letting other
00:58:05
people help us do it. Problem is, like
00:58:07
we haven't been very successful at that
00:58:09
historically. So, I suspect going into
00:58:11
the midterms, people don't want to, you
00:58:13
know, let the other side be pounding the
00:58:15
table on Doge. So, I I don't know. I
00:58:16
mean, I look, I was I've been an
00:58:18
outsider nominee, so I have no idea how
00:58:20
it'll play out, but I I I I think that
00:58:22
some I imagine some people in the
00:58:24
government want to see it go quiet late
00:58:25
in the
00:58:26
night. Is there a deep state? And does
00:58:29
the deep state's like, is it too big to
00:58:34
break? You know, I don't I don't I don't
00:58:36
like know what I would classify a deep
00:58:38
state or not. Like there are there are
00:58:42
there is an absolutely bloated
00:58:45
bureaucracy that uh hates change uh gets
00:58:50
very entrenched that is happy to ride
00:58:52
out uh political appointees like you
00:58:55
know what you're gone in three four
00:58:57
years or you know you're or dead before
00:59:00
you even arrive in my case uh we'll wait
00:59:02
you out. So, I think there's some of
00:59:04
that uh and then I think there's some of
00:59:06
that in with actual, you know, uh
00:59:08
politicians and political appointees
00:59:10
that um uh advocate like hell for the
00:59:12
status quo. And some of it might be good
00:59:15
intended because they're just afraid of
00:59:17
what comes next. And you know, why um
00:59:20
why take a risk when you've got
00:59:21
something right now that supposedly
00:59:23
works? And I ask like, you know, what
00:59:25
what if that what if that comes at the
00:59:26
competitiveness of the nation and our
00:59:28
economic security? What if we get it
00:59:29
wrong because you weren't willing to
00:59:31
take some risk and and make changes? Um,
00:59:34
so I don't think they're necessarily all
00:59:36
evil, by the way. I just think some
00:59:38
people get very comfortable in the
00:59:39
status quo.
00:59:41
Are you going to go back to space?
00:59:45
I um I don't know. You know, this is
00:59:47
like the first time in 26 years that
00:59:50
I've been, you know, really kind of out
00:59:52
of work. Uh I'm sure I'm definitely
00:59:54
going to go back and help Shafor. I
00:59:55
won't ever rob my CEO of his
00:59:57
well-deserved, you know, title now. I
01:00:00
I'll probably be an exec chair or
01:00:01
something. And, you know, I got to work.
01:00:03
I got to have a mission. Um, but I'll
01:00:05
find something to to contribute to. And
01:00:07
man, I I love uh I love flying and I
01:00:09
love space and I like the philanthropic
01:00:12
efforts we've been doing with St. Jude.
01:00:13
So, I'll keep busy. Amazing. Well, look,
01:00:16
you're you've been, if nothing, Jared,
01:00:18
an inspiration to many. Uh, I appreciate
01:00:21
your commitment to service, your
01:00:23
commitment to charity, your commitment
01:00:24
to discovery, and uh, I want to thank
01:00:26
you for the time today. It's been really
01:00:28
great talking with you. Thank you. Oh,
01:00:30
thank you. I, uh, I appreciate having
01:00:32
the opportunity to chat.
01:00:35
[Music]