00:00:00
they were asking the right questions we can stop as much as you want by the way
00:00:14
Game of Thrones flips my whole world on its head I sometimes worry that I'm like
00:00:20
alienated because it will happen when I was so young and like literally from the age of 12 I've been like set for life
00:00:27
I had a traumatic relationship with my dad and ever since I can remember like
00:00:34
I've really struggled sleeping it had like met its like Peak and I was at school I was taken by a teacher to the
00:00:41
staff room she was saying like what's happened I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening I didn't realize
00:00:47
that they were wrong I would look around at other kids and be like where does the
00:00:52
joy when does that come for me
00:00:58
when you were 22 you talked about issues with substance abuse yeah I would just
00:01:04
had that sense of impending doom and I didn't know how to make it go away
00:01:14
[Music] I'm gonna come and give you a hug
00:01:19
[Music]
00:01:26
before this conversation starts I've got a favor to ask from you 74 of people that watch this podcast frequently
00:01:32
haven't yet hit the Subscribe button and nine percent of people haven't yet hit the Bell to turn notifications on the
00:01:38
bigger this platform gets the bigger the guests get so if you could do me one favor if you've ever enjoyed this
00:01:43
podcast please hit the Subscribe button and turn notifications on without further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this
00:01:50
is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this yourself
00:01:57
[Music] foreign
00:02:05
what do I need to understand who you are now what do I need to know about
00:02:10
that part of your life um well I as like a young child before
00:02:17
the age of like eight um had
00:02:23
quite a traumatic like relationship with my dad and I don't really want to go
00:02:29
into it too much because it affects my siblings and my whole family um but like that really consumed a lot
00:02:35
of my childhood um ever since I can remember like I've really struggled sleeping and I think a
00:02:43
lot of the traumatic things that were happening I didn't realize that they were wrong but I knew that like I would
00:02:49
look around at other kids and be like why why like why don't they seem to
00:02:56
understand this like pain or dread or fear like like you know what where does the joy
00:03:04
like when does that come for me like I you know I kind of always felt like a
00:03:09
felt things very deeply um in comparison to other people and so when that sort of period of my life
00:03:15
ended um I imagined that like you know everything is just like up from here
00:03:22
like everything's perfect now um all those things that I was concerned about were actually wrong and like now
00:03:30
I'm sort of free um yeah and then you know at different
00:03:35
stages in life you realize that there's never like an end destination for that freedom um and it's
00:03:44
yeah it kind of comes from within I guess like when are you going to let yourself be free from
00:03:52
from the pain but yeah that really consumed a lot of my childhood that was sort of like what I was identified as
00:03:58
you know what I identified myself as for a long time and then
00:04:05
you know everything changed and I sort of became this like you know character who
00:04:13
uh who wouldn't let anything bad happen to her or anyone around her and
00:04:19
yeah I guess like maybe there is some sort of like connection between those two things
00:04:24
your mother left your father yeah before I was born actually well no I guess
00:04:29
she escaped when I was about four months old so
00:04:34
it was you know bad before that and then uh yeah have you spoken about this
00:04:40
before no I don't know I like you I'm sorry I feel
00:04:46
like this is an um it's something that I've been like learning a lot about recently and I feel
00:04:51
like I can speak about it now yeah um does it has it taken you time to like
00:04:57
to can I ask the question about have you spoken about it before because um
00:05:03
I think at like 25 years old there was like really foundational things I learned about myself that that I only
00:05:10
learn I mean you know sometimes you read something or you hear something and you go [ __ ] that explains this thing
00:05:16
so my question there was just like did it take you time to connect those dots yeah definitely
00:05:21
I think that people sort of talk about like rewiring people on your podcast actually speak about rewiring your brain
00:05:28
but that first in order to do that you have to recognize when your your brain
00:05:33
is doing a pattern that you want to rewire and quite often like it's already triggered so many things and like you're
00:05:40
in a bad mood and you have no idea why and it's hard to kind of like Trace back from that point so like that awareness
00:05:48
um and like finding that kind of for me had to come first like when it really
00:05:55
started to I don't know when I really started to understand it it was like capturing those minutes
00:06:01
where I was like why does that make me feel really uncertain or angry or like make me wanna like
00:06:10
shout at someone like what what is that and then you can start to go like
00:06:17
work your way back you know so you were seeing like social triggers or situations where you were you know I saw
00:06:24
you I saw you said when you spoke to Lewis house you said I've always been quite an anxious person yeah and I
00:06:30
really reflect on that because I you know I'm not an expert in anxiety I've
00:06:35
been anxious myself I've been an anxious person at times myself but um I I've always wondered for many years if
00:06:43
we're we're born that way or if if we're predisposed or if something happens and
00:06:48
then we become anxious have you thinking about how you saw sort of social triggers have you connected any
00:06:54
dots regarding being an anxious person as you call it to those early years
00:07:00
as you've grown up now um yeah
00:07:07
I guess I think like a lot of that anxiety as I started to sort of recognize it it
00:07:14
came from like not really being myself and like then feeling anxious about the
00:07:21
way that you're being perceived or whatever but knowing that you're not really being honest and that will of
00:07:28
course make you very anxious because if you have no idea who you're projecting then you really have no idea how other
00:07:34
people are going to hear it because you don't even know how you mean it and you know that sort of like facade of like
00:07:41
I don't know whoever you know whoever I thought was like capable of like getting
00:07:48
through interviews or social like settings or whatever
00:07:54
um and I think that like struggle with identity and like the big questions of
00:07:59
like who am I I think that everyone struggles with that
00:08:04
um but I think that like you know there's a period of your childhood
00:08:10
um where you know certain situations can really stunt
00:08:16
um like or just Ulta forever like who you are
00:08:21
going to become um and that's not to say that you can't
00:08:26
also just like become a very peaceful and uh
00:08:31
you know content and fulfilled person um but like that sort of Basic Instinct
00:08:38
of like what do I what brings me joy you know you've kind of second guessed that a lot as a kid and you're not known
00:08:46
you know whether to trust what you really think or feel or you know whatever sort of like mental
00:08:52
manipulation um and that can yeah really have like lasting effects so
00:08:58
yeah kind of like discovering that and being like yes I struggle with you know
00:09:03
my identity and knowing who I am so that brings me anxiety because I don't know
00:09:09
who to be in a social situation um but then also sort of going back back
00:09:14
far enough that you're like oh I don't know if that person really exists anymore and that's okay because I
00:09:21
can find you know something um yeah you know find like a good
00:09:30
version of myself um but yeah I don't know how do you what do you think about that
00:09:37
um about which part well I guess um like it feels like a lot of people
00:09:43
are trying to retreat to like being a child and like the things that brought you Joy and like who you are at your
00:09:50
core and who you are when no one's looking and um uh but you know can can that that part
00:09:58
of you be so damaged from a very a young age that that you could be searching for
00:10:04
something that um you know is just for you to make up that's a really interesting question
00:10:11
when I've never even pondered before um I was thinking about in fact Lewis Howes and I think shortly after you had
00:10:19
a conversation with him it would have been because I know the timeline he I think he opened up for the
00:10:25
first time it's so funny because when I rewatched your conversation with Lewis you start sharing things that were
00:10:32
difficult in your early years you don't share anything like this with him and then he says to you he's quite stoic and he goes yeah I went through things like
00:10:38
that as well you're aware of what he yeah yeah I am now see he went through
00:10:45
um they're pretty you know horrific uh child abuse at a young age from I
00:10:50
believe a babysitter if I'm correct that was looking after him I had sexually abused him and he talks
00:10:57
my reference is only him talking about how he feels he has to go back and for like forgive
00:11:03
himself the child that he was and heal himself heal the child yeah yeah so he has I
00:11:10
don't know if you know but he has his face at that age on his wallpaper of his phone and with his therapist he's worked
00:11:17
through healing that young version of himself and then moving on to the next to the teenage years and so do I do I do
00:11:23
I know if we can um if that child that we're seeking still exists in there I mean my very
00:11:30
naive assumption would be that they do yeah um are they are they still going to be
00:11:35
childlike I don't know there's something
00:11:41
quite naive about it being childlike which may be wisdom makes irreversible but
00:11:48
when you when you talk about Joy you talk about struggling to feel Joy at a young age
00:11:54
what is that how do I how do I how do I understand those words
00:12:04
I think like you know when you watch
00:12:10
kids play um and like there's struggles and there's
00:12:16
tiffs and there's like whatever but there's like just like complete inhibition right and
00:12:24
it's just like running or it's like going on the slide or it's like I felt like I would often stop in a
00:12:30
situation like that I'd be doing something and then I would just stop and be like something awful is going to happen
00:12:36
and just like I couldn't continue
00:12:47
um tissue yeah maybe Jack could you grab a tissue please
00:12:54
we can stop as much as you want by the way we don't have to carry on it's a great thing for podcasting yeah
00:13:04
yeah maybe I'll hide them around the other side I could put them just like here cool is that that's off camera yeah
00:13:11
it's all good um yeah I would just
00:13:17
um had that sense of impending doom and I didn't know how to make it go away
00:13:24
um and I had to like
00:13:31
great memories I don't even know it's hard to remember a lot of them a lot of those times that I felt very free I was
00:13:39
actually on my own um but I would never have like thought I
00:13:44
was like an introverted person like I always would have thought that I was quite extroverted because
00:13:50
um I'd perform a lot of people you know um but yeah I yeah I struggled I yeah I
00:13:58
struggled with that when I was a kid um and just thought like
00:14:03
how do I stop feeling like this and just feel like everything's okay you know but at that
00:14:09
age I'm guessing you didn't know why you felt like that so knowing how to to go about yeah healing from it is is an impossible
00:14:16
task right it's good point about you can't solve for something that you you're not aware of yeah
00:14:22
going like nothing's wrong like nothing is wrong everything's the way that it's supposed to be
00:14:29
but it wasn't but I did I just would tell myself that like what is wrong with you like
00:14:35
was there an age when you found found out because I kind of asked this question earlier but was there any was there a
00:14:41
moment where you found out what was wrong yeah when I was about eight
00:14:46
um I
00:14:53
was quite like a complex like string of events that happened but basically it had like met its like
00:14:59
Peak and I was at school and I guess I was well I mean obviously
00:15:05
I was really struggling um and I don't really know what happened but I was taken by a teacher to the
00:15:11
staff room and um she was saying like what's wrong you
00:15:18
know like what's happened have you are you hungry well and she said I don't know
00:15:24
yeah you're hungry I said yeah she said did you eat breakfast and I said no and she said oh why not and I said we just
00:15:29
didn't have any breakfast and you know and then she says well you know do you normally have breakfast and he's not really and so you know the sort of they
00:15:37
were asking the right questions
00:15:48
okay so you can get them
00:15:55
I'm gonna come and give you I feel really confounded
00:16:05
okay yeah yeah
00:16:13
no I I do think it's important because I had so many people who loved and cared
00:16:19
about me so much but I'd never been asked the right questions where I could really say what was wrong
00:16:26
um and um my mum came to school and picked me
00:16:34
up and um my siblings were also at secondary school at the time and they
00:16:42
um some of them was were with mum and one was not and they were dead still and
00:16:49
yeah um and it was the first time that like
00:16:54
it was all of the doors were sort of open and all of these things that we
00:17:00
were experiencing were like out on the table and
00:17:05
it was really really hard because I still wanted to fight and say no like
00:17:12
these things aren't bad like you're trying to take me away from my
00:17:18
dad and that's wrong you know like um because I was like indoctrinated in a
00:17:26
way like you know um I think that's why I'm obsessed with
00:17:32
Cults because I'm like I get it I get it I was in a child cult against my mother
00:17:39
um yeah so I really was sort of fighting it for for at the beginning but but basically like my whole
00:17:47
world like flips on its head and even though all
00:17:52
these things that I'd was feeling I thought oh my God I'm so glad I don't have to see my dad anymore
00:17:58
uh it still was like against everything that I had ever knew to be true you know
00:18:07
I don't know if I'm being too cryptic no I don't think I am I don't think you are you can be as cryptic as you wanna
00:18:13
yeah yeah I understand what you're saying and that's the that's one that I need to to get the context um and you
00:18:20
can just talk as come whatever you about whatever you want to talk about in terms of what makes you comfortable I don't
00:18:25
know I don't know where your line is yeah you need that um
00:18:31
when I watch cult documentaries there's a lot of um manipulation that goes on in
00:18:38
these documentaries there's a lot of fear that causes silence um
00:18:43
and that's usually why people find it that's often why people
00:18:49
find it difficult to leave those situations and then when they do have these like I always observe this like conflicting array of emotions like they
00:18:55
have this love for this person but at the same time as you've you've described it once out of that situation there's somewhat are
00:19:02
probably you know a spirit spiritually free and happy to be gone so that that conflict of emotions always fascinated
00:19:08
me how two truths can almost exist in the same place you can feel
00:19:15
you know so um liberated and free and at the same
00:19:21
time just like that impending doom is kind of still there where yeah
00:19:27
it's like all your problems don't just sort of like go away you know um
00:19:34
yeah you still like care a lot about that person or you
00:19:40
still sort of understand you know the pain or whatever that led
00:19:45
to those very very poor decisions
00:19:52
as you sit here today 25 years old how do you feel about your father
00:20:02
well to be honest with you I've been thinking about this a lot
00:20:09
um and
00:20:15
like I've been trying to do this thing where I stopped taking things personally and like not just like you know when
00:20:23
someone's had a bad day and they like push in front of you in the queue but like the big things in life like what if
00:20:31
I said that it was not like it wasn't because of me that that happened
00:20:37
like it it if it if I wasn't there it would
00:20:42
have been something someone else like it's not um
00:20:48
yeah it wasn't like because there's something wrong with me that
00:20:53
like these bad things happened when I was a child is that a thought you had
00:21:01
yeah yeah yeah I felt like there was something
00:21:07
inherently wrong with me or us because like we did lots of things wrong all the
00:21:13
time which is like why you know you you know you'd be mistreated or
00:21:20
whatever because you're like oh like we really need to be better at this because we keep doing things wrong and we keep
00:21:28
getting in trouble type thing um but then I was like well you know like and especially well because it was
00:21:36
someone you know my a parent and I felt like oh they're supposed to like like
00:21:42
you and so you know but then I was like well what if like there's just like no connection
00:21:48
between like me being you know his daughter and like it could
00:21:54
have been like literally anyone like experiencing that pain and it would like still be the
00:22:00
same and then I just kind of could separate myself from it a little bit and
00:22:05
I could start to sort of reflect on him as a person and be like what happens that you get so stuck in your mind that
00:22:14
you can just like you know permanently like mistreat people
00:22:20
um you know what children
00:22:26
children like your own children but but you know
00:22:34
taking that step back and seeing it like more objectively kind of like makes me quite interested
00:22:40
in in the guy I don't know him at all um and I'm like
00:22:46
what happened to you when you were a kid like who are your parents
00:22:52
is this something that you were always like when you were a kid did you like pull the legs off bugs or like
00:22:58
you know did this did you learn this like you know these are all the questions that I would ask yeah yeah and
00:23:05
so that's kind of like how I feel about them now where I'm just like what if like he would make a fascinating documentary and it's like nice to to
00:23:13
like you know not feel the the personal pain
00:23:18
of that anymore and actually just think like you know
00:23:24
I don't know if any of the answers to that will like help me in my journey um but it is sort of like a nicer way to
00:23:30
think of him than you know as like someone who doesn't love me or like me or like whatever
00:23:37
you know he talked about that feeling that you were to blame for
00:23:43
outcomes in your life that might well especially as a relationship early as that weren't you weren't to blame for
00:23:49
um were there symptoms of that as you grew up this kind of the feeling that you know
00:23:55
um when things happen it was because you did something wrong or you were you were to blame for things did you feel that as an adult in your teenage years at all
00:24:02
yeah definitely I think that like I really um wanted to control a lot of things that
00:24:08
you just can't control because like if I don't then if I'm not worrying or
00:24:14
thinking about this or like wanting to control this then like it's all going to fall down and like then I'll blame myself and it'll be like a you know
00:24:23
something that I could have done better or should have done differently
00:24:28
um yeah I feel like
00:24:34
I guess it was more just like trying to control like the uncontrollable and that
00:24:39
then leading to like another way that I could like beat myself down you know
00:24:48
it's interesting because I've seen so many other interviews you've done and without knowing that early context a lot
00:24:54
of those a lot of the things I was hearing didn't make sense yeah yeah not
00:24:59
that you know it makes sense is maybe an interesting use of words but um it always felt like there was a part
00:25:06
of your story that was Untold yeah
00:25:12
it you know I think when I was like 12 and I'd done a bit of Game of Thrones
00:25:19
and was doing interviews and like the first interviews that I'd ever done I remember people sort of being like but
00:25:26
you're so young like how do you protect like how do you show this pain
00:25:31
like you've just seen like the death of your father or like how do you know that
00:25:37
like how no how do you act that sort of like Fury and I just
00:25:44
like in my head was like that's a really stupid question because I've known how
00:25:50
that feels but like you know I it's like I don't know something nice to just like
00:25:56
leave in the past I guess but it's it's hugely influenced like
00:26:02
everything that I do as an actor like I get to access all of that confusion and
00:26:09
pain in my job and I get to like really feel it in like every
00:26:15
fiber of my being but there's no like consequence and there's no like you're
00:26:21
not really shouting at anyone or hurting someone or it's like it's all pretend but like the emotion is is real and like
00:26:28
just being able to like let that out is something that I didn't do for a long
00:26:33
time and so it's like it just all sort of came to the surface and I guess like holding you know
00:26:42
the early part of my story like to myself is also just because I haven't really understood it the way that I have
00:26:49
now and and I'm sure I'll understand it you know far better in the future but
00:26:55
I feel um I feel like now there's like some
00:27:00
sort of closure to it where the journey might help other people whereas before
00:27:06
it was just like pain pain pain pain and no like conclusion right right no
00:27:14
like okay we're through the other side yeah it was just like other problems
00:27:19
that come from like the same problem problems yeah um but yeah I mean it's like you know
00:27:31
going into that audition to play Arya Stark I was sort of surrounded by girls
00:27:37
that like were joyous and like were free and like
00:27:44
like they were kids there were kids who were happy and um you know
00:27:50
had you know had whatever they had um and I thought wow I really
00:27:57
um you know here we go again like gonna be a disappointment but you know for
00:28:02
that moment actually that was that was what they needed and so that was sort of like
00:28:09
a moment in my life where I was like huh maybe this thing isn't all bad maybe
00:28:14
there can be something like beautiful that comes from you know this this part of myself that I
00:28:21
find like um unnatural like or like just different to
00:28:29
to other kids here we go again I'm going to be a disappointment oh yeah
00:28:36
yeah what do you mean by that so when you when you got the role you
00:28:42
presumed that you were going to let people down yeah yeah no
00:28:48
I just like going into the room I meant like okay oh no I'm not gonna be what they're looking for but I I did end up
00:28:54
being what they were looking for but like you know I just um yeah yeah yeah of course
00:29:01
um yeah I don't know like did you did you like
00:29:10
always feel ever feel like disappointing
00:29:15
yeah yeah of course yeah there's been moments in my life where I've definitely feel
00:29:20
like I've let myself down and other people down and it's not a good feeling to to sit with but I think I've tried to
00:29:27
channel it into um into making myself I actually went for
00:29:33
an audition at 14 years old to do the junior Apprentice you know The Apprentice the TV show so they launched the junior apprentice and I went for the
00:29:39
first audition got through to the final 20 and then I got long story but I got this email from the BBC saying that someone had leaked the press that I was
00:29:46
going on the show so they said this is jeopardized your chances of going on the show and I don't come from a family
00:29:51
where we had much so going back to Plymouth and telling everyone you know like all my friends oh he's going to London and going back and saying like
00:29:58
they've just called me and told me I'm not on the show was was devastating for a long time lots of tears I felt like a
00:30:04
disappointment of that phase in my life um and several times subsequently but
00:30:10
um I I think I've always been somewhat optimistic going into situations
00:30:17
I generally feel like I've got nothing to lose um [Music]
00:30:22
and I think maybe that's a bit of a privilege to be honest I think mindset privilege is a real thing just like
00:30:27
perspective privilege something we don't talk about enough and um had I been in an early situation
00:30:34
where someone was continually telling me the things that I was were doing were wrong or not good enough or
00:30:40
whatever I can quite easily see how I would anticipate that feedback going into anything where
00:30:47
um feedback was going to be given and it's actually pretty remarkable I mean
00:30:52
you know because those early experiences you would assume would smash someone's like self-esteem pretty severely and and
00:30:58
make them kind of retreat into safe places one of the safest places is where we don't get feedback and someone
00:31:04
doesn't shout at us or you know but that that first this is your first audition
00:31:09
right Game of Thrones yeah or one of I I had an audition before that which I also
00:31:14
was very excited about and then didn't get so that was like my first like okay you know professional rejection but
00:31:19
you're still putting yourself out there in situations where you could be rejected yeah definitely and I think it
00:31:24
was because I the only time that I really felt that joy that I saw in other
00:31:30
people was when I was like dancing or performing and there was this feeling
00:31:37
that I would get that I was like this is like I feel like human you know
00:31:44
um and so I was like I've just got to do anything I can to like do this forever and so from a very young age I was like
00:31:51
I want to go to Stage school and I want to yeah I'm happy to leave everything and
00:31:58
go and do that and um yeah so I I really every opportunity
00:32:03
was like um yeah I guess that little part that you said like I've got nothing to lose
00:32:10
it was like yeah on the other side of this could be absolutely everything so I I have to do
00:32:16
it I read this book I say red I watched the summary on YouTube
00:32:22
but I'll just say it sounds more impressive I read this book called The Body holds the score then if you ever
00:32:27
heard of it and one of the most fascinating things about it is it talks about how acting and moving the body in
00:32:33
like yoga have been proven to be the best forms of um uh antidepressant like
00:32:39
without you know taking ssris or anything they've been proven to and I remember thinking acting is a great
00:32:44
antidepressant how is that possible but what you're saying now Rings it talks about how it kind of disassociates from
00:32:51
Identity when we Act um and so what you're saying now seems
00:32:56
to validate what I read I'd love to read that because that's like exactly what I
00:33:02
instinctively like discovered uh like it just happened and I thought
00:33:07
ah like this is what I'm supposed to do um have you ever figured out why why
00:33:13
acting was a because I I say the word escapism but it why it was so liberating
00:33:20
for you is it because is it escapism is it because it disassociates you from your own identity is it because you can
00:33:26
create this new there's like two parts of it it was like how I felt
00:33:33
like within my body like everything floated away and like the way that it
00:33:39
felt to move my body or the way that it felt to like contort my voice or like whatever it just like like that feeling
00:33:48
when you're like can't stop laughing it was just like incredible and then there was the way
00:33:53
that it made other people feel and I guess like with with acting with
00:33:59
dancing it was like it was very it was very much about the way that it felt and not necessarily the way that it looked
00:34:04
or like how other people would experience it but with acting it's like you get that sort of two-way thing and I
00:34:11
also saw the joy that it would bring other people and like
00:34:16
I guess like you don't you're like not disappointing you're like making someone laugh or you're making someone happy or
00:34:22
you're like and that was like you know fun and new
00:34:28
yeah I was gonna say Game of Thrones was a Smash Hit but it feels like a slight understatement
00:34:35
I feel like smash it is let's yeah it
00:34:40
it huge the fame piece I've had a smidge of Fame like seven
00:34:48
people know who I am right and sometimes it can be a little bit difficult so I can't even you know I can't even imagine
00:34:55
especially with the the sort of confounding factors of your age trying to figure out who you are becoming famous for being a character on
00:35:02
a huge show yeah um being in your sort of adolescent years all of these things all at the same time
00:35:09
when you look back and you know you and you remember you're saying about how people were like forecasting your
00:35:15
downfall because of all those factors yeah yeah
00:35:25
that actually the strangest thing about it the hardest thing I think was
00:35:33
like needing to articulate who I was and what I loved the things
00:35:40
that I didn't like and what I had an opinion on and what like you know
00:35:45
um yeah that I remember at the time being like oh gosh I really don't know anything about anything I really need to
00:35:51
know these things I need to you know and then like you know years later you
00:35:59
go like oh I said that my favorite film was this and like that's not true and
00:36:04
it's like you don't need to know any of that stuff no like it's all um it's all just like a journey right
00:36:11
it's all like there's never like an end um what advice would you give that person 13 year old
00:36:18
amazing to be honest with you like I wish that I'd have just um like trolled it all a bit more
00:36:25
and like whatever I like instead of really digging deep and going
00:36:31
oh what is the real just like whatever you feel that day that's okay and it can
00:36:36
change the next day because that is just like life you don't have to be beholden to
00:36:41
anything that you've said or done you can let it all go and like rip up the rule book because I hated London moved
00:36:48
back to Manchester and went to New York and you go actually I'm gonna go back to London like this is what I'm gonna do now and it's not going to be like
00:36:53
something that you're like oh I wish I hadn't done this like you're like no this is this is what I want now and that's like
00:36:59
that's just sort of the way it is so I kind of wish that I'd just like you know not just like tortured myself to know
00:37:05
like what is the real answer to these like silly fun questions
00:37:12
um and then been like oh no I've like portrayed myself all wrong this is not who I am because it's just it's like
00:37:20
it's like water would you would you change the timing of the events that happened in your life if
00:37:27
you if you could like acting when I was super young um
00:37:33
the only thing I really feel like we didn't have a lot growing up but like
00:37:39
I've I've never you grew up on a continent in a council house and
00:37:45
like you know have always had like a awareness of how hard my mum worked like
00:37:50
raising us giving us everything that you know she did putting food on the table um you know but that kind of I I never
00:38:00
I remember like when I was sort of like 18 and a lot of my friends started going to UNI getting jobs whatever I remember
00:38:07
like there was like I was like I never even though I know what that struggle
00:38:13
was like growing up like I've never like struggled to get a job or
00:38:18
um struggle to make rent or anything like that and I think not that I would change that of course
00:38:25
like I'm so fortunate but I guess like I I never want to I never
00:38:32
want to lose sight of like the perspective of like just how fortunate
00:38:37
that I've been and like just how tone deaf it is for me to believe that I like
00:38:43
would understand what it's like to you know to struggle to make rent and want to be a creative person and not
00:38:49
know whether to get like a sensible job or to like because I don't know what that struggle is like at all
00:38:55
um so yeah I don't know that like I I sometimes worry that I'm like alienated in in some
00:39:03
ways because it will happen when I was so young and like literally from the age of 12 I've been like sat for life and
00:39:08
that's like very different to how I was like before that age is there a mixture of emotions
00:39:15
surrounding that like being set for life at 12 um as you grow now I've sat here with a couple of guests who come from like a
00:39:21
council a council estate or grew up in in very difficult situations and they often express this kind of I remember Jack commit doing it expressed this kind
00:39:27
of almost guilt's a bit of an interesting word but like why did I I remember Jack saying to
00:39:33
me I can make thousands and thousands of pounds from just making YouTube videos and I watched my dad not make the same amount of money in like a year or
00:39:39
whatever and I could just make it from one YouTube video and he would go back and feel he'd meet someone I remember him saying he met someone in a pub that
00:39:45
was like a cancer doctor and he's making more than them just sat
00:39:51
at home he anyone who expresses his kind of like I don't know guilt or Injustice have you ever felt that
00:39:57
um definitely like um just yeah real like the guilt around
00:40:04
like allowing yourself to have nice things or
00:40:10
do nice things because you're like able to like I felt like when I was a kid
00:40:16
everything stopped happening and all my problems were going to go away and then like all my problems didn't go away and
00:40:22
then I was sat for life when I was 12 and I thought all my problems gonna go away and I was like well this doesn't it's not like that unless all of my
00:40:28
friends and family are that way too because like how are we all supposed to like be okay if the only one person is
00:40:34
okay and
00:40:40
you know you give people what you can but you don't see the the pain take that
00:40:48
take the pain away for another person doesn't take the pain away for yourself like and then you realize that like actually
00:40:54
life is something else entirely and like the biggest problem that a lot of people
00:41:00
face is making money and like I'm making enough money to live
00:41:06
and like support their family but being able to do those things
00:41:15
isn't in it like the only thing that like makes you happy like when you take
00:41:21
that problem away there's sometimes still a very hard discussion that you have to have with yourself where it's
00:41:29
like a yeah like a fundamental chat where you have to tell yourself that
00:41:36
well I don't know there's a lot of things I don't want to take away from the fact
00:41:42
that like having money enables you to like even be able to comprehend or like
00:41:47
another set of problems yeah yeah like I know that that in itself is like an
00:41:52
incredibly privileged position to be in um uh
00:41:58
but like money won't take the pain away it will take like the stacking bills or
00:42:04
you know um or the fear of like losing a house you know
00:42:11
um it doesn't undo trauma you can't you can't buy you know yeah yeah yeah yeah even if you can keep
00:42:18
the heat on and the electricity and feed yourself there's still there's stuff for many people another level of trauma which um money can't seem to solve for
00:42:25
directly um the the post game of thr you know I I
00:42:32
remember sitting here with some one of the guys from One Direction Liam Payne and um he talked about how
00:42:39
post One Direction you he has this identity which is he's a part of a boy band and then leaving that it can be
00:42:45
quite Troublesome psychologically who and I think he talked about the same thing which is like who am I where do I
00:42:50
belong how do I then go and ident like find out who that person is and start creating for that and not just being
00:42:57
this this character this you know member of a boy band that I've that the world knows before did you ever feel that post
00:43:02
um Game of Thrones yeah in a way but but I felt like I had got to a point already within being in
00:43:09
the show that I was like oh I feel like I'm like cosplaying as this like person I've
00:43:16
created and I don't think that this really is who I am so sort of leaving the show me that I
00:43:22
could leave that as well um you know I kind of like wanted to like
00:43:28
say the right thing and do the right thing and like act like I had everything figured out and like be a good role
00:43:34
model and you know and which is all very good things to want but it's like it was it wasn't like
00:43:41
very authentic it was like just like trying to be liked I guess right and
00:43:46
then you're like oh I actually you know I don't want to do things that make people like happy because like I wanted
00:43:53
things to make me happy and like I want to you know represent myself the way that makes me feel most comfortable
00:44:00
um and not like just the way that's most like palatable or like whatever and so I I already got to the point
00:44:05
where I was like oh this isn't really me and I'm like desperate for something to just like drastically change so as I can
00:44:12
like cut from that and and that's sort of what happened when the show ended then also sort of sped up by the
00:44:19
pandemic and being like ins like solitary
00:44:24
um so I was kind of like very ready for that and it wasn't like oh who am I I was kind of like oh who could I be you
00:44:32
know 21 21 22 years old how are those years for you so this is
00:44:37
like around the time the show is concluding yeah included when you're 22. yes when it came out yeah
00:44:44
um I just didn't really go out a lot and I
00:44:49
I just felt quite I just I don't know it was just like it
00:44:55
was like the most successful it was ever going to be and it was like most people would like recognize you on the street
00:45:01
and and like I had just got so like rehearsed at like oh thank you that's so
00:45:08
nice and I just like everything I said and felt and did it was just like oh none of this is it's like
00:45:15
um I just I felt like very going through the motions of Life uh it was like yeah
00:45:22
acting again yeah yeah yeah yeah um it wasn't
00:45:28
the like the the hardest like most awful and traumatic like oh it was like terrible it wasn't it was fine but I
00:45:36
just like I knew that something better was coming at that age they're 20 years old how do you feel about yourself
00:45:42
oh I didn't really have a very like good opinion of like myself and my self-image
00:45:48
it's I forget that I really didn't like myself that much um
00:45:55
I don't know I just I just told myself that I
00:46:00
was like awful and disgusting and like unattractive and unkind and
00:46:10
like just like not a a good person and like unlikable I just told myself that
00:46:17
like every single day and so in ways I sort of became like that because
00:46:23
um you just like beat yourself into like a mess you know mind is quite powerful
00:46:30
in that way yeah really powerful mm-hmm Fern talks to me about this a lot I know
00:46:36
you did have podcasts right yeah yeah I listened to her chatting about this on your podcast yeah yeah
00:46:43
do you know the origin of those of those of that self story like where where it originates from obviously you have a a
00:46:50
thread that most people don't have which is the world is giving feedback on you every day now because you're in the
00:46:55
press and you're a young woman and we know what that can be a pretty vicious thing but it do you know the origin of
00:47:00
those self stories I feel like I've I've felt self-conscious like even before all
00:47:05
of that so it definitely before like Fame and so it definitely was enhanced by that but I think it came a lot
00:47:11
earlier um and I'm actually still trying to figure this
00:47:18
out like at the moment with my therapist we're trying to really Trace that back and a lot of this like has come a lot of
00:47:26
the discovery has come through meditation I've been doing a lot of Transcendental Meditation and like
00:47:32
there's something about going into that state that like brings up like a little ticket and I go ah like that's but but I
00:47:39
haven't quite figured out the answer to this one yet I'll wear it like initially stems from but I've definitely felt like
00:47:46
embarrassed of myself or ashamed or like you know thought oh like I'd be playing
00:47:53
at a kid's house and thinking like their parent thinks that I'm like awful I'm like the child that all parents don't
00:48:00
want their kids to hang out with like I've just felt this way about myself and I was like
00:48:05
you know I wasn't trying to get them to do like naughty things or anything I just was like a kid that was just like but I thought you know I'm I'm like
00:48:14
like I'd go to someone's house and I'd like my shoes and like maybe they're not in the right place and I haven't put my
00:48:20
bag in there and this parent is gonna like not like me or like whatever I I
00:48:25
like felt that like like self-awareness to that degree where
00:48:30
I've like critiqued and like beat myself up like since I was very very small
00:48:38
yeah I don't really know I don't know where it comes from yet Elena well the
00:48:43
question I I naturally ask is when when was the first time someone told you those I mean even the example
00:48:49
of like oh God if I put my shoes in the wrong place well you know what happens if they're in in the wrong place and
00:48:56
what's the consequence of my shoes being in the wrong place because Me growing up with my shoes were in the wrong place there's not really a consequence for
00:49:02
that no you know yeah
00:49:12
I don't know well I have some theories on it
00:49:21
um but I don't know it can it doesn't concern just me so I don't know yeah
00:49:29
yeah just like I I think that I've like um I've witnessed
00:49:37
uh like people just feeling like just them existing in one spot is like them
00:49:43
just taking up too much room in this world and I think that I've like just
00:49:48
taken on a piece of that um where like just living and breathing
00:49:55
like you're too much and like you're irritating so
00:50:01
but it's not true and if anyone ever feels like that it's not true
00:50:10
because we can know these things are objectively not true but it just this is the thing that really fascinates me is
00:50:15
like how can we have how can we in one on on one hand know that something is not true yes and seemingly we're not
00:50:22
able to completely eradicate that story because
00:50:27
that you know I I used to think definitely used to believe before doing this podcast that these stories we believe there's evidence we have whether
00:50:33
it's wrong true or false about ourselves I used to believe that there was some way of just like
00:50:38
erasing it and you just you do this you do this you tap your head you wiggle your stomach like that and then it's
00:50:44
gone to therapy twice you do this spin around and it's gone but no matter like
00:50:49
I don't think I've ever met a guest on this podcast that has gone through some kind of traumatic early experience in
00:50:54
their life and has ever erased it ever people will say they've you know they've
00:51:00
built new evidence which counteracts it so that the New Evidence makes the decisions in their life but it's still
00:51:06
there and traumatic events can make it flare up I'm one of like I consider myself to be
00:51:12
one of those people where I've got to be very aware of of my my triggers because you know they might
00:51:18
take over the control room once in a while um and start calling me shots so
00:51:24
I I feel like um
00:51:30
I feel like just like experiencing it all in the moment
00:51:38
is interesting and like not sort of like predicting that there's like an end to it
00:51:43
but you go like huh I have been in this situation before and like last time I
00:51:50
wasn't aware of these triggers and now I see exactly what's what wants to happen and I'm not gonna do it
00:51:57
and like there's the piece of your brain that's like actively making those decisions and going but then there's the
00:52:04
like I don't know Consciousness or like you know the spirit that then observes it
00:52:09
and goes huh like what happens next like you're playing a
00:52:15
board game right and like something happens and then like you're sort of above it and you go where will this go
00:52:21
next and and every time that your brain doesn't manage to do that it's not like
00:52:27
going straight back to that place that point even though like that's the way your body's reacting it's like you're
00:52:34
still at this point in the Journey of life and this is how you're experiencing
00:52:39
it in this moment and like it's not like oh you failed at like healing because
00:52:45
like there's no end to it it's just you know in this moment what can you
00:52:52
what can you can what can you learn your brain has gone back there even though like previously you've managed to avoid
00:52:58
this or you've managed to sort of like avoid a trigger or like you know rewire something but it hasn't this time so
00:53:04
it's like what can we learn from looking at it this time how do I see it differently to a time when I would have like done this before
00:53:11
and it just it keeps going like every minute is like an opportunity to like
00:53:18
see where it will go next um
00:53:25
and it will never be erased because like it's a vital part of who you are and
00:53:30
like without it like you're you would be in an entirely different person it's
00:53:36
like what is that film um Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind he like gets his relationship removed
00:53:43
from his brain basically wait yeah I haven't no but yeah I've heard about this thing called the Eraser test which
00:53:49
they do on people which sounds exactly the same yeah um it's important it it gives you it it
00:53:57
gives you you know all of the tools to make decisions in your life um if I could give you an eraser
00:54:05
um would you use it not a single piece
00:54:13
why because
00:54:21
I feel I think that there's a point in everyone's life where
00:54:28
they experience firsthand that life is extremely unfair
00:54:36
and it can happen at any point and it's unavoidable I think well I
00:54:43
don't know Melissa maybe isn't in a few years I might have a different answer to this question
00:54:50
but the things I experienced when I was a
00:54:55
child no person should ever experience at any point in their life
00:55:01
but it's taught me so much
00:55:12
and I feel this like
00:55:24
com complex like
00:55:30
a deep emote like these complex Deep Emotions um
00:55:36
that are ultimately what I use every single day as an actor and
00:55:44
um I can I can I can recall those things and I'm I don't know that
00:55:49
I'm grateful for that I'm grateful to understand
00:55:54
the deepest pain and fear and also like the most
00:56:02
liberating joy and freedom
00:56:08
and like maybe you don't have to go through those awful awful things to feel that but I did and
00:56:13
you know this spectrum of emotions that are like within me I feel like incredibly
00:56:21
fortunate for because I think that that is something that's different about me
00:56:27
so you you go through that phase after being 20 you go through quite um significant what's the word
00:56:34
self-disparaging self-hate um as I've heard you describe it
00:56:40
you find it hard to to think or say nice things about yourself have you overcome that
00:56:48
because when you did that interview with Lewis you were talking as if it was in the past yeah I desperately wanted it to
00:56:54
be and I still do I think that um I've got like a lot better at it
00:57:01
um but you know whenever whenever
00:57:07
you know I sort of fall back into
00:57:12
pain or whatever it always comes back to like this
00:57:17
fundamental feeling that like I'm just not worth like
00:57:23
any of it like I'm just like not worthy of like
00:57:28
you know and that's like
00:57:34
it's like it's hot it's it's hard to combat that when you're
00:57:40
like well but I'm really really talking to myself differently and I'm really trying to like put up boundaries and I'm
00:57:46
trying to really respect myself and like do you know
00:57:51
um treat myself with some respect and then you just like still get to this point
00:57:56
where you're like ah so that's like difficult and like that is something that I struggle with and I
00:58:03
have like you know periods of a long time well that doesn't happen and then you know periods where
00:58:08
it comes back again um but yeah just like keep combating it and
00:58:15
telling myself that it's not true and that I am like
00:58:21
I'm worthy of everything in life of of
00:58:27
whatever I want from life has has um has anything helped
00:58:33
truly not like you know we say oh this helped uh here's five tips to help you [ __ ] [ __ ] we write in our books
00:58:40
and stuff but has anything truly helped to advance that feeling of worthiness yeah I
00:58:47
meditation and uh spirituality which are
00:58:52
two things I didn't have a relationship with for my whole life up until
00:58:58
um 2021 so yeah five minutes ago five minutes
00:59:04
ago yeah so just last year um everything everything really changed
00:59:10
after that point I you did mushrooms didn't you no
00:59:16
it was it was awesome Transcendental Meditation
00:59:21
um uh and and then like a couple of like very
00:59:28
like surreal life-changing spiritual experiences just like in day-to-day life
00:59:34
like not high or anything um that I just like couldn't ignore and
00:59:39
I felt like oh I'm like I'm not alone like
00:59:45
you know like there's something else um even on like the hardest days like
00:59:50
there's something here that's like gonna be there like gonna you know
00:59:57
take care of me um yeah
01:00:03
and so that's like easier to then just like keep going you know
01:00:09
when you were 22 you talked about um previously having
01:00:14
issues with substance abuse uh yeah well yeah did you talk about
01:00:20
that or have I just inferred that from you use the word substance I mean I I feel like I spoke about this a little
01:00:25
bit on Louis yeah yeah but like I don't want to undermine it but
01:00:32
I guess whom I say like what normal teenagers do
01:00:38
and what normal teenagers don't do um but like you know I like party like took a lot of party
01:00:45
drugs and like partied when I was like a teenager um and
01:00:52
I was in the position where like I could buy more but I didn't really do that
01:00:58
you know to a terrible degree I yeah yeah and but but it was like
01:01:04
definitely something that I was like I need to stop doing this if I want to like feel happiness um
01:01:09
because that's the slippery slope especially things like very accessible things like alcohol even yeah you know
01:01:14
I've had people very close to me that have have become alcoholics because of you know trauma they've been through and
01:01:21
stuff like that and I do do you drink now what's your relationship like without alcohol and stuff no not really
01:01:27
I mean I I don't I'm not like sober um but I don't I don't really drink like
01:01:33
in the house or like on a weeknight type thing it's usually like with dinner or like you know a gig or with friends or
01:01:41
yeah but yeah a lot of that is like quite um
01:01:47
was quite a welcome like release I guess it wasn't like something
01:01:54
that I you're so busy as well I struggled with if you're filming like 250
01:02:00
filming days per season or per year yeah I mean the whole production yeah okay
01:02:05
but yeah yeah exactly it was it was it was like hot it was you know very busy schedule a lot of sleep needed to do to
01:02:12
get through there I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower and
01:02:19
she said to me that she tried the heel protein shake which lives on my fridge over there and she said it's amazing low calories you get your 20 odd grams of
01:02:26
protein you get your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's nutritionally complete in the protein space there's lots of things but it's hard to find something
01:02:32
that is nice especially when consumed just with water and that is nutritionally complete and that has
01:02:38
about 100 calories in total while also giving you your 20 grams of protein if
01:02:44
you haven't tried the heel protein product do give it a try The Salted Caramel one if you put some ice cubes in
01:02:51
it and you put it in a blender and you try it is as good as pretty much any
01:02:56
milkshake on the market just mixed with water it's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie
01:03:01
intake and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet so this is where he all fits in my life thank you
01:03:06
heal for making a product that I actually like The Salted Caramel is my favorite I've got the banana one here which is the one my girlfriend likes but
01:03:12
for me salted caramel is the one quick one as you might know crafted are one of
01:03:18
the sponsors of this podcast and crafted are a jewelry brand and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry the really
01:03:25
wonderful thing about crafty jewelry is it's super affordable it looks amazing the pieces hold tremendous meaning and
01:03:31
they are really well made I think I've worn this piece for almost a year it
01:03:36
hasn't broken hasn't changed color because it's really really good quality and it costs roughly 50 Quid people will
01:03:44
be surprised when they hear that they'll probably assume that all of my jewelry is like solid gold and cost thousands and thousands of pounds but what's the
01:03:50
point when you can achieve the exact same effect from a piece of jewelry that's high quality and costs 50 Quid
01:03:56
that's why I buy crafted we before we start recording we talked a bit about Reuben yeah
01:04:02
your voice changed when I mentioned Ruby yeah yeah and you're you're wearing a
01:04:08
shirt that he a t-shirt that he designed yes created yeah inspired by these artists called
01:04:15
Jean-Claude and Christo it's dope my husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of
01:04:20
iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric so cool yeah it's quite cool it's very
01:04:27
me so um when I'm not wearing all black to try and be uh stew Economist on this podcast
01:04:34
um what is how is how is how has it been going through trying to
01:04:39
figure out romantic love that's a that was a very difficult thing for me as I talked about earlier but how's it been for you what's that
01:04:45
Journey been like um I think that I I definitely like
01:04:50
resonated when you spoke about um like rejecting a lot of like
01:04:57
relationships friendships or whatever because it's like cringe or like not real or like whatever
01:05:04
I I feel like I definitely spent a lot of time doing that and I never really confronted
01:05:11
um the the part of myself that
01:05:17
um I know it was like desperate to love and be loved but I didn't really know how I
01:05:24
didn't really know what that looked like or whatever um
01:05:30
I don't really know how deep to go with this
01:05:35
I never like had relationships where I was like mistreated
01:05:41
um but that was mostly because like my trauma response was like whenever there
01:05:48
was like any hint of like I don't know conflict I was like I'm out
01:05:55
like no I don't I seen this one before and I'm not gonna be Hoodwinked by this but
01:06:02
like the truth is is like they were just like nice people and I just ran away like you know and
01:06:08
and cut off like whatever emotions were there and just like Marie sorry like it's not really gonna work type thing
01:06:16
um and then you know with confronted with someone like Reuben who
01:06:22
um stop [Laughter]
01:06:29
um I think that I I met someone who um whenever I would start doing that and
01:06:35
start going like oh they he like saw it within me and was
01:06:42
like you see what you're doing like you're you're like trying to
01:06:47
sabotage yourself again and like you can do that like I'm not gonna stop you yeah
01:06:53
that was the first time that like someone was patient enough you know even though you're really
01:06:59
trying to push them away to be like that's fine like I'm not trying to like
01:07:04
tell you not to but like just observe what is happening right now and like
01:07:09
you can sleep on it fine like you can sleep on it for a month if you want to fine like whatever
01:07:15
and it was the first time that yeah I
01:07:20
I realized this pattern that I hadn't been able to capture like catch before
01:07:26
and um yeah it's been incredible it's been like four years now and we live
01:07:32
together and um I've like never never knew that like
01:07:39
peace and joy and like happiness and like like coexisting with another person
01:07:44
could like be this way I never saw this in my life and like it's just all new
01:07:50
and like yeah all beautiful so interesting how sometimes it takes a
01:07:57
certain person to like get over that wall you know and it's funny because I feel
01:08:02
the exact same way we try and stop people getting over the wall because it feels like self-defense it's ultimately self-sabotaged but we we try and prevent
01:08:08
them climbing the wall but then if that person can get in they can go about writing a new set of evidence you know
01:08:15
we talked about evidence if that wall is essentially evidence it's like it's it's a it's a shield built on faulty evidence
01:08:22
from a from another experience if they get over it they can help us go on the Journey of making new evidence but it's
01:08:30
it's very difficult to get over and then eventually something they do can just back get inside that that last line of
01:08:37
defense and it's good when they do right because you can learn how wrong you were about so many things you believed um
01:08:44
and then you go like wow every single thing that I've just like Define myself as like
01:08:52
it can all be different and like that's
01:08:58
like real freedom I I think
01:09:04
like yeah just one of those little pieces were
01:09:10
yeah everything you thought you knew about the world just like
01:09:15
changes you can then be like what else am I wrong about or like what else
01:09:22
not like even right or wrong it's like what other ways can I like experience this like what are the
01:09:30
how else can um
01:09:35
yeah like what new sort of like possibilities are there for like who I am and what I'm gonna do
01:09:43
who are you and what are you gonna do [Laughter]
01:09:49
um I am a
01:09:54
um I'm like a kind and sensitive
01:10:00
person and I
01:10:09
want uh
01:10:15
and I want to like I want to like I want other people to
01:10:21
feel happy like I want to I can't like bring like
01:10:27
make people happy but like I want to cons I like I'm considerate of like
01:10:34
people around me and like how they might be feeling or whatever why is that difficult to say I don't know
01:10:43
I don't know
01:10:48
I don't know if I had to like really think about it maybe it's like
01:10:55
like um if I if I if that's like really who I am at my core which like I I
01:11:01
really feel like I'm speaking from that there's pain there because
01:11:07
why was I made to like feel like I was such a monster you know
01:11:16
yeah it's painful because I think like if I take away all of the things that I
01:11:21
project and like oh like I'm someone who like speaks their mind and like I don't
01:11:27
care what you think and if I like take all of that away and I'm like who am I really and I actually just like
01:11:33
you know like someone who's quite sensitive and like wants to make you know want wants
01:11:40
to be considerate of the people around them like why why do you just like keep
01:11:46
putting things in front of you that are going to stop you from just like being that when who you truly are isn't a bad
01:11:51
thing like those aren't bad qualities to have as a person so why like why
01:11:57
you know why am I so ashamed of that or like whatever you know
01:12:05
like why yeah why why am I tripping myself up to like not be that maybe
01:12:11
because like once that wasn't good enough right and I'm telling myself like you know that's not good enough
01:12:21
it seems like it makes sense as an explanation yeah I was thinking as you're saying I
01:12:26
was thinking well you know if you've if at one point you had to be someone else or you had to be you had to meet
01:12:33
expectations in order to be told that you were good enough expectations that were
01:12:38
unmutable you might spend your life dancing from one expectation to another just trying to please the world's expectations and I know you
01:12:45
know now because I've heard you talk about it that expectations are really trying to meet social expectations anyway really are the
01:12:52
slippery slope isn't quite the word but but it is quite I think slippery slippers maybe a good phrase to use
01:12:58
because it's all down from there isn't it once you start playing that game it's the self-destructive spiral down to
01:13:05
[Music] a place that's hard to climb out of like maybe I don't value just like
01:13:16
like just kindness and can sit like cons uh consideration in other people
01:13:26
I'm just spitballing on this by the way yeah so am I yeah what makes you think you're invaluate other people well
01:13:33
just because I I have this other sort of theory that I've been like steering for a while where it's like you
01:13:40
you hate them like you you despise the most like what you are
01:13:49
or like you're you're the you reject the most like
01:13:54
who you are inside that would make sense if who you were was rejected right
01:14:00
if you were told that who you were is not a good person and that is a belief that you have then if you see that in
01:14:06
other people you think well that's not a good person because yeah yeah
01:14:16
I'm just a bit boiling as well but um you said that you
01:14:21
kindness was a quality that you um in other people either didn't you thought you weren't didn't like it yeah maybe
01:14:27
it's something I don't that like value enough I don't like if I don't think it's I'm work like well you were told
01:14:33
not to Value right directions in a sense because you were that and it was real negatively reinforced yeah
01:14:41
yeah I'm just guessing but yeah I guess we both of them yeah what what
01:14:47
is success to you if you are if you know if you look back in 10 years from now and say I was successful over those last
01:14:53
10 years what would that be well there's like a lot of like tangible
01:14:59
things that I want to do with my career um no no no right okay so yeah just like
01:15:05
exactly you know yeah but like I mean I guess success would be like
01:15:11
like knowing in my soul that like I just I deserve any of any of those things or
01:15:16
like like just uh um
01:15:23
feeling adequate what is success
01:15:29
well I've I've already said that I don't feel like it's a destination right
01:15:35
it's like a happening every second it's not like it can't look I can't
01:15:42
stand on the other side of success and look back and be like what a look at that moment it's like what you look back
01:15:48
on it's every like every time you're at a Crossroads or a decision and like how
01:15:53
what did you choose to do that's all you can control is like what's happening right now
01:15:58
like are you going to choose this path or this path like are you
01:16:03
going to behave one way or another way are you going to do the things that you don't like about yourself and continue
01:16:10
to do them or are you gonna like do it differently and you're gonna like talk about yourself in a different way like
01:16:16
and that's like it's every second and and there's no other side to it
01:16:22
um I don't know maybe Enlightenment if you if you believe that um
01:16:30
but it's about the the journey with you're 35 years old you
01:16:37
sat here again yeah and you go those last 10 years yeah they were a
01:16:43
good 10 years yeah which I'm sure you will say but if we sat here you're 35 years old I'm like
01:16:48
I'm dead by then I'm like 75 or something I've just turned 30 and I'm like living
01:16:55
a crisis I'll be 40. so um I love all my 40 year old listeners
01:17:01
thank you subscribe um but you're 35 um I'm sat here and I'm 40. we're
01:17:06
looking back on the last 10 years and we're going yeah that was really really a great 10 years what would have had to have have happened in your estimation
01:17:13
for that to be true um I guess like
01:17:20
um like control oh no control that sounds like
01:17:26
like I I um
01:17:32
I guess it would be like looking back at all of the moments and you know seeing seeing the the conscious
01:17:38
decisions that were made rather than just like acting on impulse right
01:17:44
I guess success would be like that was a point that was really challenging and like I feel really proud that I didn't
01:17:51
slip back into that old habit or I didn't like you know
01:17:56
I I didn't like just go completely selfish and think like oh my problems are the worst in the world like I just
01:18:01
think had a bit of perspective and I like picked myself up and I I kept going like I guess that's like I would look
01:18:07
back on those moments and feel like those decisions like would define those ten years and I'd be like proud like
01:18:14
proud of of that um yeah do you have a do you have a do you
01:18:20
have a sense of mission about you at all Mission definitely I mean
01:18:26
the the freedom and
01:18:31
like the The Joy the I feel through performing
01:18:39
um and I'm I like it's just it's changed my life right
01:18:44
and like we're at a place where you know there's a lot of people who
01:18:50
want to like you know make art creative people who want to
01:18:56
um sustain a lifestyle of like making art and like you know um whether that be acting singing you
01:19:03
know writing uh and now I guess like the mission is like
01:19:10
I I want to build companies or like um you know work with people and like
01:19:19
kind of continue the ethos of like um you know pushing creative people to
01:19:25
be able to sort of like sustain a life of like you know creative work because I'm like in a very fortunate position
01:19:31
where I do what I love and what
01:19:36
I do also brings me money and the way that the work makes me feel is
01:19:43
like the best thing ever and like that those like three things I
01:19:48
think are like a foundational piece of like being a like a human and like
01:19:54
it's like should not be as hard as it is for like people to be in that position
01:20:01
and um I when I when I'm around like down about like the world and like
01:20:09
like whether it's the government the environment or like anything
01:20:15
um I like kind of Wonder I'm like what if like more people could do what they love for a living like would we actually be
01:20:22
in like just in a better place like
01:20:27
not that those things like influence any of these like poor decisions but like I see like so much there's a lot of
01:20:33
pain like like there's a lot of pain in the world and like life causes people a
01:20:40
lot of pain and I am yeah I just I feel
01:20:47
um I feel like you know art and like expression through ART and like
01:20:52
channeling like creativity I wonder if that would contribute to
01:20:58
making the world a better place I want for that to contribute to making
01:21:03
the world a better place you're a very different person to the person I watched in all of the previous interviews
01:21:09
yeah well I didn't I'm still the same person but I definitely have a different perspective when I watched um because
01:21:17
you did a few interviews about three four years ago and in those interviews um just like I don't know what it was
01:21:23
you were very very high energy
01:21:29
do you know what I mean like very very high energy um you seem to yeah exactly sorry that
01:21:34
yeah yeah yeah you seem to just be very um considered and
01:21:41
uh what's the right word very considered and a bit more
01:21:48
calm now then oh now now yeah yeah I think that that's like exactly
01:21:55
how I feel and like it's so like it's so exhausting like
01:22:03
performing in that way it's not fulfilling it's not real
01:22:09
it was like I guess I was that way as like an escape from
01:22:19
from the the quite like the quiet like I didn't know what was going to be in there when I like stopped
01:22:26
like I think that it's like quite a scary
01:22:33
even though like on the other side of like self-discovery or like trauma
01:22:38
healing like on the other side of it is like the answer to all of your problems like it's it's terrifying it's
01:22:45
terrifying to look inside you because you've always told yourself that like you're not good enough and like it's
01:22:53
terrifying because you're worried you're gonna look inside and be like Oh all of
01:22:58
those things were true but no it's it's terrifying to be like wait maybe like I
01:23:04
am actually worth like worthy of like a good life like and maybe I'm like
01:23:11
stopping myself from doing that like that's a crime
01:23:17
that's not like and I think I mean it's like I've said this a lot but it is a
01:23:22
journey but I think it's it's it's like a scary thing to start buying off and then once
01:23:28
you start buying off then you start to realize like how selfish that you've
01:23:34
been and you you don't like yourself for like a number of reasons but then you start to
01:23:41
like not other reasons to dislike yourself but it's like
01:23:47
you just I don't know I feel like I like this you have one life and like and I've
01:23:52
been spending all of this time like stopping myself from doing it and like that's
01:23:58
awful of myself to do that but it's also to do that to yourself
01:24:05
it's also just like a waste of all of that and there's like that other perspective
01:24:11
um yeah
01:24:16
but yeah just like stopping and having that
01:24:21
having that sort of um conversation I guess like with myself has like it's
01:24:27
changed everything it's changed like and it's been so much better now
01:24:32
so much better and it's less tiring so many people don't don't want to go near that
01:24:38
onion yeah you know they don't want to they don't want to go near it and it's funny because I I I I you know sometimes
01:24:45
with my own naivety or my own um mindset privilege or because I'm someone
01:24:51
that loves introspection I'm like go and peel it back go and peel it why won't you peel it back on let's go to therapy
01:24:57
yeah you know I must be a pretty difficult friend to have if you don't want to peel back layers because I only
01:25:03
want to peel back I don't want small talks so yeah yeah but but I sometimes encounter people that don't want to peel back the layers and it's frustrating
01:25:10
because you you see the consequences of unpeeled back layers everywhere in their behavior and you think well you just
01:25:16
need to peel back the layers and you'll find the sauce once you know what the sauce is then you can go about solving against it or understanding it um
01:25:24
but yeah I don't know what to say to people when they don't they don't I guess it's none of my business and
01:25:31
everyone in their own time some people maybe will never start the Journey of understanding
01:25:37
themselves and healing and peeling back layers yeah sometimes people who you love and are very very close to and like
01:25:45
you you'll never be able to control that or or like
01:25:50
force them to or do it for them was there a catalyst or something that helped you to take that step and and
01:25:57
start wanting to peel back layers and understand was there anything that
01:26:02
or was it just the pain of staying the same was greater than the pain of making a change
01:26:09
I think like I had always been searching but I never I never knew like how to go deeper how
01:26:18
to like yeah okay and I think
01:26:24
um yeah Reuben
01:26:31
meditation therapy the pandemic like well because we were
01:26:39
just at home every single day like a lot of variables like stopped shifting so I could track my mood like
01:26:47
more um accurately because like there wasn't a
01:26:53
bunch of different things happening each day but I could see like like I could see it so I guess like the Stillness you
01:27:00
know um but like you have you have to you
01:27:08
you have to you have to choose like what you want there's Comfort sometimes within the pain or within like the
01:27:17
um onion and like you have you have to
01:27:23
choose whether got like going going there
01:27:32
it is gonna be like paint like the most painful thing you ever do but like have
01:27:40
you know every possibility on the other side or is it just like safer to like
01:27:46
not and like get by and like it's okay because I'm not hurting anyone and like I hurt myself a
01:27:51
little bit but like I can deal with it it's like that's the thing you and it's like at that sort of a hard decision to
01:27:57
make and there's never a right time and like it never like happens as fast as you want it to happen and you just like
01:28:04
have to chew like that ultimately is a choice that only you can make and you can't make for other people you can't
01:28:10
like persuade them and you can't like you just have to choose and you have to
01:28:17
do that multiple times where you go I'm fixed now and then you're not and so you have to choose again like am I going to
01:28:22
get back on the horse or am I gonna not and it yeah it's just
01:28:28
professionally then yeah yeah oh your face lit up again
01:28:33
I'm like it's I I it's very liberating to speak this
01:28:39
freely um in with you in this private setting but like understanding that it's going to be public because I I've never really
01:28:47
done that I don't think um and I'm a bit scared I have to be honest like I'm quite like concerned a
01:28:54
little bit it's like creeping him yeah but I really hope that it like
01:28:59
um Can Help the people that it's like you know or I don't know well I hope but um yeah
01:29:06
I hope that's okay what is what is the concern um I don't know it's
01:29:12
like the media training part of you that's like don't say this and also
01:29:18
because like a lot of things that I've discussed like they do concern other people and so you know there's that as
01:29:24
well um because it it just gets yeah I don't know
01:29:30
but it's it's fine it's fine it's gonna be okay
01:29:40
were you were you um were you anxious about coming here today
01:29:45
um uh yes but I had prepared well no I just had
01:29:56
I wanted
01:30:06
sometimes I'm anxious because I don't know where it's going to go and other times I'm I'm anxious because
01:30:13
um I I like it's like are you gonna be open
01:30:19
or not or are you going to be honest or not I guess yeah so that was sort of the anxious thing where it was like
01:30:25
you know I I went to morning yoga this morning and I was doing breathing exercises in the car
01:30:32
um because it's like it's very easy to slip back into the like uh yeah yeah
01:30:38
it's like still a part of me it's still a very very prominent part of me so yeah
01:30:43
why did you want to do that today why did you why did you want to be um open today
01:30:49
like there's a piece that's like missing and like if I try and really talk about things honestly like I just know that
01:30:56
there's this like massive like hole that I'm like dancing around the edge of
01:31:02
um and I don't think that it like yeah
01:31:09
I don't think that that like helps anything so yeah
01:31:18
I guess like what I what I wanted to speak about today and like we've got we
01:31:23
have spoken about it and it's like been a lot more emotional than I
01:31:29
you know anticipated but it always is right um but I I it's like
01:31:39
you know like freedom of expression and like making art really did change everything and like
01:31:46
I want other people to to feel that and like I couldn't talk about that and
01:31:51
without like fully talking about what it helped me escape from I guess
01:31:57
so yeah it's funny with being an artist that we um I used to think that our creating art was exclusive I said this
01:32:04
in our show what we did up and down the country open with this I say once upon a time I used to think that art was exclusively reserved for people that
01:32:10
were like artists if it's in your bio then you can do it you can paint you can create you can make music you can dance
01:32:16
but it only fits in your buy and you've gone to like school for it yeah everyone else we're all like other things artists
01:32:23
over there everyone else over here and um it was actually when I left my job as
01:32:28
a CEO that I thought to myself at a fundamental level if I remove all these labels that society's given me what am I
01:32:34
and that's when I discovered the art in me that I'd been suppressed because society says you're an artist and I'm a
01:32:39
CEO yeah but we're all artists and that realization has been so amazing for me
01:32:46
in my mind and my mental health and all those things do you think we're all artists I do and
01:32:53
I think that you can there's a lot of words you can use for that that might make you know people more comfortable with you know that as a label but I
01:33:00
think like fundamentally like since the beginning of time like humans have like made things and they've just
01:33:08
like got increasingly like complex and like they maybe they've altered like the
01:33:14
human state in like lots of ways and like you know the way we think and the way we behave or whatever but like we've
01:33:20
always made things like at our fundamental level like we've used tools and we we've made things
01:33:26
and whether you like see your approach to life or like your mind is like more
01:33:32
like analytical or something like it's there's it's still like creation like
01:33:39
you're still creating things um and finding like
01:33:46
what you create like very freely and like being able to do that as much as
01:33:51
possible is like an incredibly fulfilling thing and it doesn't have to be like painting or like these very sort
01:33:59
of rudimentary like clear sort of artists Industries like
01:34:05
I don't know like I I've listened to like some business podcasts and stuff and they talk about like sort of like running a company yeah you can probably
01:34:12
have more insights but like when people are doing like what they're amazing at and like other people are doing things
01:34:19
that they're amazing at and like you don't get people to do things that like they're very slow
01:34:24
and like don't understand or like don't like doing or like and that's like how you can like move very quickly
01:34:31
[Music] and and so it's like but what about like the whole world like not that the whole
01:34:36
world is like a company or whatever but like like what if we could all do what we're like that comes effortlessly to us like
01:34:47
yeah and it's not just like a but like a bunch of people sitting around painting like it's not that at all if you think
01:34:53
about artists as like that very sort of like but if people were like free to create
01:34:59
and to like explore their mind and like you know Express through through
01:35:04
building through making um the thing that um people sometimes struggle with is they will say well I've
01:35:12
got this job and I I can't do that I'm a you know I gotta go to this building sir and I gotta put you in I've got to do this thing and I've got I'm a cleaner so
01:35:18
I've got to do this or I've you know I work in a supermarket or um I'm a driver so I can't I can't be an
01:35:25
artist I can't create anything sorry Maisie yeah well
01:35:30
and this is what I always want to be like incredibly um
01:35:37
I guess like from that person's perspective yeah I
01:35:42
don't have a clue like what I'm talking about right and it's like it's all like
01:35:49
very nice like in theory but like get in the real world and like I understand
01:35:54
that perspective and that's why I think it's like
01:35:59
a like
01:36:06
like a like a a problem like that's rooted through like even the way that
01:36:11
like children are like educated like all the way through to like the way we see
01:36:17
like our working life span like but I believe I I understand what you're
01:36:22
saying you're saying wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody could get to that place if that was even if it's a you know and I I I personally think that
01:36:30
um I really would love you know if I could waive a wand and everyone listening to this could maybe take one
01:36:36
thing away from this from my my from how I've received it it's like we don't have
01:36:41
to give up on that dream of creating just because like I remember working in call centers I remember doing all of those things but I would
01:36:48
I would also prioritize as much as I possibly could understanding the context I'm in and
01:36:54
everyone's in a different context not one that I can speak to that um the way out of that for me was
01:36:59
like owning my my own space of creation even if that meant home and like playing a video game where I got to like build a
01:37:05
virtual world or in the case of me it was I was building this business called wallpark and it's actually more so now
01:37:11
that I'm like learning to DJ and I'm like doing these shows I'm writing these books that I'm like
01:37:16
um no matter how much I get caught up in my identity of like building businesses whatever I should always reserve a split
01:37:21
space for like creating if possible and that is so good for the mind I hope
01:37:27
everyone because I know everyone listening to this there'll be a guy you know driving up in a lorry listening to this right now but he knows he loved
01:37:34
playing the drums and at some point he told himself that oh I can't do that that's a silly thing that's a
01:37:40
distraction yeah it's a waste of time that's the worst one yeah yeah I think
01:37:45
like the the like snowball of like opportunities that
01:37:51
like or possibilities that it opens up when you just like yeah you don't tell yourself no I can't
01:37:57
do that anymore because I don't have time or I don't have um you know it's like yeah I'm I have to
01:38:04
do this instead or I have to do this instead like switching switching like a little portion of your week over
01:38:11
to like freely creating um I I think it can bring incredible things
01:38:19
for people wasted time is a really interesting concept that I've I think in the last two weeks of doing this podcast I start to think a lot about was
01:38:25
actually last night someone said to me oh we should watch um but they say Prison Break
01:38:30
and I remember like my brain went that's a waste of time and then I corrected
01:38:35
myself to them and I didn't say it to them but I remember going do you know what nothing is really a waste of time
01:38:40
because if you think about the way creativity works and how we Source inspiration from so many random things I
01:38:46
think it's and also if you just if it relaxing is not a waste of time no but I think we've been quite conditioned to
01:38:52
see if it's not productive and resulting in some kind of you know quantitative Roi it's a waste of time yeah what's
01:38:59
your relationship with time and empty time and space
01:39:04
well I mean it's changed a lot but I think like currently um I I don't
01:39:11
like I don't try and like control like time this is taking too long this isn't like
01:39:19
you know this needs to happen now or like oh I should be doing this but I haven't um
01:39:27
I've spent like a lot of my time like I've spent a lot of my time uh like it's torching myself over like
01:39:35
whether I spent time in like the most like uh
01:39:41
like useful way or whatever um
01:39:46
but now it'll it
01:39:52
feel like we even said something recently because like we've been talking about time a lot and like
01:39:58
sort of this discussion of like is it linear like and this is kind of like you know quite
01:40:05
like can be quite sort of hypothetical or whatever uh dense things
01:40:11
about like the history of the universe and like what we all are and what it all means but he said something very interesting
01:40:17
recently where he was like I I feel like what time can do is like arrange itself before you
01:40:24
and like he sort of talks about like his schedule like sometimes in a week like there's a million meetings and they're
01:40:29
all happening at the same time and it's like uh like are you gonna go like uh I need to change everything he was like oh
01:40:36
do you just like Let It Be and then it magically kind of like this person needs
01:40:41
to do something earlier and this person needs to do something like later so like these calls all move and then we need to
01:40:46
cancel because so I've got covered like he was like it like if I like stress and
01:40:52
try and manipulate my calendar to be like perfect one that's really really stressful and
01:40:59
two I don't do that and it sometimes just like it most of the time just sort
01:41:04
of falls into into place and so I I've always thought that was really interesting so in those
01:41:10
times where I was like I I need to be doing this right now but like I can't do it I can't focus I can't whatever
01:41:16
I am like the space the the block of time where I'm supposed to do this is
01:41:22
going to find me that sounds like I'm like avoiding all responsibilities no it makes perfect
01:41:28
sense to me many ways I received that the first one was just like okay I can't control the
01:41:35
future anyway so there's so much anxiety surrounding trying to the second thing is that like
01:41:42
my priorities and what I care about will end up shaping this all anyway so like if this ran over by a couple of minutes
01:41:48
and I wanted it to run over that's fine because I made the conscious decision that this was my priority versus I don't know walking my dog or something and so
01:41:54
my priorities my values will hopefully lead me and then there's loads of things out of my control which is not for me to worry about anyway so the future should
01:42:01
be somewhat fluid and accepting that's not always an easy thing but it's
01:42:06
probably a better way to look at our time I want to enjoy the journey so you're enjoying the journey right yeah
01:42:13
more so now than ever yeah good
01:42:18
are you uh yeah I'm enjoying the journey yeah yeah I am I just take every day I
01:42:24
think I've just always just taken every day as it comes and like some days I do really [ __ ] and that's okay
01:42:30
but I can't do anything about it now so I just try and to just as I said earlier like channel that into
01:42:35
like learnings feedback yeah
01:42:41
being better we have a closing tradition on this podcast which you might be aware of
01:42:46
um it's where the last guest writes a question for the next guest oh cool now I have okay I haven't okay so they don't
01:42:52
know who they're writing it for and you will never know who asked it okay
01:42:58
and I don't get to read it until now okay this person has a bit of a interesting handwriting okay mine is
01:43:05
worse I'll say but but um here we go what's the last decision you made
01:43:14
that went completely sideways plus what did you do
01:43:22
to correct it brackets if you could correct it
01:43:30
was like a lot of a lot of things I'm thinking of and I don't know like
01:43:36
Okay so I have been working in Paris recently as you know
01:43:42
um and I uh I was diagnosed uh like a year
01:43:48
and a half ago with ADHD and I take medication every day and I like
01:43:53
prescribe that in the UK and I'm like working in France so I ran out
01:43:59
um and like couldn't get any more in time to like go away
01:44:06
I don't know if this is going to be like insightful nobody's been sightful at all
01:44:11
um to correct it I tried to get some sent over but that like wasn't working for lots of different reasons
01:44:17
um but I guess like the main thing that I did was like stop beating myself up about
01:44:25
like not like organizing it better so as I
01:44:31
had it because I was already feeling like terrible
01:44:36
um but you know torturing yourself over this and telling yourself oh you could you
01:44:42
could have your medication right now if you'd have just or if you'd have just done this then you'd be fine right now
01:44:47
but instead you're gonna struggle like instead of sort of going down that path I just was like it's done I can't change
01:44:55
it like I'm I can't do this like oh like my my brain is like hitting a wall with
01:45:01
like you know I don't know to-do list or like whatever and I had just have to ride it out what
01:45:09
made you want to go and get checked for ADHD but then even that assumes you wanted to go get checked
01:45:15
I've been speaking to a psychiatrist for like a long time so he's known me for for quite a while
01:45:22
um and we've sort of like yeah between between him and like therapy that I do
01:45:29
sort of more actively um like more regularly yeah
01:45:35
um and he suggested it yeah yeah and it made sense to you it did
01:45:40
like a lot of the things that I like have noticed about myself
01:45:45
um like I always remember my mom being like yeah but you know I struggle with this and I struggle with that too like you
01:45:52
know and I think she raised me knowing all the things that she knew about herself like in a very particular way
01:45:58
and I got to do a lot of things that came very naturally to me um uh and she was sort of forced to do
01:46:05
things like she just you know and so but it was like funny because he
01:46:10
was sort of telling me all these things I'm like yeah but my mum does that and he's good yeah it runs in the family interesting so um yeah it was quite a it
01:46:18
was quite a interesting thing just for me and my mum to go through actually um yeah like had more perspective on myself
01:46:25
but also like more perspective on on her too which was kind of cool what is your relationship with the mum I realize I've
01:46:30
not mentioned her yeah we haven't um my relationship with my mum is in a
01:46:36
really really good place now um no I mean she it's like it has been my whole life
01:46:43
um she I mean she like kind of gave me the greatest gift of all and just like
01:46:50
supported whatever it is what I wanted to do um and it kind of led me to like the most
01:46:57
extraordinary places and we did a lot like together um
01:47:02
and in more recent years I think I've like I've well you know grown up but
01:47:07
also sort of like you know been more more independent and like that is like adjusted our relationship
01:47:14
um as it does like you know very naturally um but it's just been like interesting for the two of us to navigate that from
01:47:19
from being like quite in ways codependent you know like she traveled with me while I was like
01:47:26
between the age of like like 12 to 16 17 and like those are
01:47:32
usually the years when everyone's like Mom like you're not cool I don't like you and like me and my mom were like thick as thieves and we just like
01:47:38
traveled like travel the world together like me and her um uh so we were like very like very
01:47:46
very close and like very like had a you know and we still are we still have all those things but it was it's just been
01:47:52
very interesting like you know growing up and and having uh
01:47:57
like having parts of my life that that are like just simply my own and like parts of my career and struggles with my
01:48:03
career that I get through on my own because like you know I I that's okay I can do that now and just like the way
01:48:08
that that's been like strange for us both I think was there a point with your relationship
01:48:14
with your mother where you started having those difficult conversations about the things you were realizing about yourself and your past and is
01:48:21
there because I I'm just I'm not that close to my parents so I've just never had um I've never had those conversations
01:48:27
yeah like we yeah we've definitely had like those conversations
01:48:33
um yeah it's like incredibly painful like
01:48:41
it it yeah I think there's like so much pain you know that
01:48:47
you have like in your own experience but like you know you'll it's yeah it's like
01:48:56
very painful to think about like people that you love like being in pain as well or like whatever so
01:49:01
yeah well Maisie um thank you thank you for
01:49:10
uh thank you for coming here today and thank you for having this conversation with me um I learned so much from you know some
01:49:16
everyone I speak to but um it's interesting
01:49:23
You're such I feel like I feel like you're I feel that you're such a good human being at your core and it it
01:49:30
almost um uh yeah it's difficult for me I feel
01:49:36
like you're such a pure good human being you know and so I really like feel I
01:49:42
feel like every tear you've cried and I feel all of your all of your pain as well um I've never actually got up and hugged
01:49:48
someone during the conversation but no you are you're such a beautiful pure human being and um I'm so deeply hoping
01:49:57
that you um you get comfortable with that truth too
01:50:02
however long that takes for you because it is the truth and um because that is
01:50:07
the truth it means that you're so deserving of so much more so than I am you're definitely no
01:50:13
you are because you are you are literally like a within there you are a complete Ray of joy and sunshine and
01:50:19
love and kindness and all those things that I'm striving to be even better at so um thank you and you know
01:50:26
uh thank you for your honesty because it's unbelievably difficult and it's easier not to be but you you won't even
01:50:33
get to see all of the the people that it serves and helps in so many profound ways so that's what I want to thank you
01:50:39
for and your suit and it's just tremendously inspiring we didn't even get to talk about how hard you've you've
01:50:44
worked um professionally we did a little bit off off air but um to achieve all the things you've achieved at such an
01:50:49
unbelievably young age but um that inspires me um your openness and honesty inspires me your wisdom inspires
01:50:56
me and you know I'm so excited you're 20 [ __ ] five which is unfair it's like crazy it's crazy
01:51:04
um crazy that you've done so much and you're such a beautiful person at such a young age so thank you Maisie thank you
01:51:10
thank you for having me um and thank you
01:51:15
um thank you for this incredible podcast I think
01:51:21
um you as you have spoken about have a real
01:51:26
range of guests but I think that you um you approach everyone on like a very
01:51:33
sincere and like um consistent level and I think that
01:51:39
like you as a person are like very real and that sort of brings out like a real
01:51:46
openness and in the people that you talk with but you also like
01:51:51
clarify at every sort of Point any part that you don't understand which not only
01:51:57
makes it helps you understand but it brings like the audience in in a way
01:52:03
that like a lot of other people don't whether because like they don't want to ask questions because they don't want to
01:52:10
look like they don't know or whatever like you you are like very authentic
01:52:17
um and like it's incredibly calming to be around
01:52:23
um so thank you huge compliment thanks Maisie
01:52:30
[Music]
