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I did everything that voice told me to do that night had that voice have told me to jump off Thames Bridge I would
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have done it please welcome David
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it's U.S drama home the most influential voices on race and mental health
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I remember reading about a moment when you come home you find your father's typewriter with one word written on the
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typewriter which is an illness and I didn't quite know what it was but I knew something was off I haven't seen dad for a while and then one morning I got up
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and my mom said don't go into the kitchen and go straight to school out the front door for that night that's when my mom told me that that'd be
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David Harewood was the first black actor to play this part the hostility that I
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was met with as a young black actor was ferocious newspapers reviews just
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dismissing me he looks more like Mike Tyson than Romeo what's he doing on the stage so I really did feel like I was an
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anomaly the whole thing the stress the smoke the overthinking just ended up making me spiral that's what led to me
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just falling into psychosis I was lying in bed and I just heard this voice in my head he said he was Martin Luther King
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even though I'm speaking to you from Beyond the Grave I need you to close the
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gap between good and evil so you're gonna sacrifice yourself tonight and you're going to be an angel and that was the night I was eventually sectioned I
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just remember lots of flashing lights and then being in the back of a police wagon if that would have continued I'm
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not even sure I would have been here today before this episode begins I just want
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to say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers 74 of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before and
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we're now down to about 71 so that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain but simply the bigger
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the channel gets the bigger the guests get so if you haven't yet subscribed to the Diary of a CEO if I can have any favors from you if you've ever watched
00:01:50
the show and enjoyed it it's just to please hit the Subscribe button without further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this
00:01:57
is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this yourself
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[Music] foreign
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[Music] what do I have to understand about your
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very earliest years to understand the man you are this perspective you
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have and the work you do today what is the most important context wow that's an interesting question what
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do I need to what do you need to know about me then um that I was probably naive
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open innocent uh and probably more
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um probably more conflicted than I thought I was I I was a vessel and into that vessel
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was just been poured so much I'll say false information wrong
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information that um at some point it had to
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smash break I grew up at a time when there weren't many black people on television and
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there weren't many black images that on television or anywhere
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and I think I think that is I think that seriously
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put me at a disadvantage but I I grew up with a false sense of myself and that
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that false false picture
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uh has only recently emerged does that make sense
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not entirely unless I get further context what was the picture of yourself you grew up with
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I would say you know I just think I was just way too naive
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and way too
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way too that's hard that's a really interesting
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question I had really thought about that but I think it's only it's only in recently recent
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years and having asked myself some of the questions that I've been asking myself over these last couple of years and I've really started to get a
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real grip of the person that I am
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so who did you think you are when you when you were younger what did you think of the world in yourself when you're younger that was so naive and
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ill-informed um I think I was
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I didn't really think it was important I don't think my color was important
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and that's why I say I was naive I didn't think my color was that important I had no concept of myself
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as a sort of young black man and that's why I say I grew up at a time
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and there weren't any images of myself so I couldn't really structure my identity [Music]
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around a sort of solid identity and even my you know my mother was always sort of
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trying to steer me into a more Afrocentric mindset now I got back to Birmingham where I
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where I'm from and I look at how many of us are in interracial relationships of that generation we were constantly told
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to assimilate it was all about assimilating assimilate you're not even my you know I I heard the one I heard
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the phrase one time you're not black you're normal which is so bizarre
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so that your identity as a black person was sort of ironed out you you just you just
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you're British you're English and and
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so when I came out of drama school I think and the world said to me you're black
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it was a real sort of wake-up call for me and
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seriously contributed to what happened two years after I left
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going back to your your mother and your father how was their relationship and your early experience with them shaped
00:06:23
the man that you are today who are they as people
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wonderful people in a very very um my mother was extremely strong
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and uh my dad was a kind of a quiet silent type
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really uh very proud um
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didn't really speak much didn't really
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um it wasn't wasn't particularly involved in our education wasn't particularly
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involved in shaping who we were you know he
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was very much hands off you know it was a long distance large driver so he was away a lot
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and when he came back he would sort of sit and what's the telly and in peace and just you know
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I often tried to talk to him when I was a kid but he he was a very difficult man to sort of
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open up um whereas my mother was my mother was always sort of talking and
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and sort of cajoling and very welcoming of her friends and she was just a really wonderful
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character and still is very very funny but you know she tells me now stories that she used to you know some of the
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fights that she had some of the battles that she had when I was writing my book you know as I said we were the only
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black family on that street and she was constantly in conflict with with
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neighbors with um racists
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and she didn't back down she was very very sharp and fearless
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sounds like my mother Fearless
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your father um you write a lot about how hard working he was
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um the the lack of affection you've described there the lack of openness
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um as you look back now was there a is there was that was there a cost to that
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to him and to the family to you
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I think so I think so I think I think the fact that he didn't that's difficult
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because it feels as like I'm criticizing him and I don't really want to do that but
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I think it was a loving home there was a lot of laughter in the house but that's you know he he loved
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you know all the British sitcoms and of the time and one of my favorite sounds was the sound
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of him laughing I loved hearing him laugh hear my mum laughed it was the house seemed full of laughter
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when I was growing up so there was a lot of you know there was a lot of humor in the
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house but there wasn't necessarily a lot of tenderness and you know I I kissed my kids every
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morning when they go to school it's just that why but I I don't know why that's important to me maybe it's just become habit but I want
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them to know how much I love them and I want them to know
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um how much respect I have for them and how much how proud I am it's important for me to do that and maybe it's because
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my dad didn't do that not not because
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not because he he um purposely didn't do it I just think just don't think he thought it was that
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important maybe do you think he knew how to do that I don't know if he did
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I don't know if he did and um but I think that's kind of true of a lot
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of men of that generation showing emotion wasn't very easy for
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them and also I think it's really interesting a friend of mine
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tells me this story of it's very particular to the 60s and 70s
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which is why I'm you know I was a director and and I'm very I'm fascinated by this period
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of late 50s 60s 70s England
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because I don't think people understand the level of racism that was present in this country and
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he's got goosebumps then because they don't understand it and the idea of being othered
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that you would leave your house and literally take your life into your hands I mean I remember
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randomly getting off a bus and instantly being chased by a group of skinheads and you would just
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automatically find yourself runny now
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to to be to to have come here from the Caribbean with ideas of streets
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are paved with gold England being the mother country to have come here with that idea and to
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be met with that amount of hostility to be met with
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with that amount of abuse that amount of rejection
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I think it's seriously damaged not just my father but many people who
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came here in that generation that Windows generation because it's fascinating to me how many
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Caribbean parents do not want to talk about that period just do not want to go there
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because I think it was horrific and I think it damaged him
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I haven't really thought about that before well I you know really considered it before but I do think
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that was a tough period for a lot of a lot of us and whereas in America you
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know movies have been made plays have been written about that generation about that um period we've
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not really looked at it I have to be completely honest I you know I grew up in 90 I was born in 1992
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came to the UK when I was two years old from Botswana um I I always saw my mum have this I'll
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describe it as this like competitive uh
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I'd say it's slightly competitive attitude towards people and this like General belief that other people were racist and I never understood it I never
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understood I never fully understood it I just thought she she viewed the world as big being racist and as I've done this
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podcast and specifically spoken to people from the 50s 60s 70s 80s
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and and early 90s my mind has been blown because I don't get I didn't get it of course you know
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and it's interesting as I listened to the wonderful Chris yeah and the world
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that he was talking about I know that I've I I remember it
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you know growing up in those in in I was born just after Chris and five years after Chris but those
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which is why he's such a legend for me why him still Regis they are legends
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because as kids I watch them playing football knowing full well
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that 50 of that the crowd were giving him so much abuse
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regularly and yet he was able to play football smile score goals play aggressively I
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was in all of those guys because I just thought I would be scared
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as a kid I was scared and that's one of the things I've touched upon in my book is is owning up to that idea that
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I was terrified growing up in those days because you just never knew
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where a brick would come from where where you know your a car would a car
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would suddenly you'd be walking down the street whistling yourself having a great day next thing you know [ __ ]
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[Music] just monkey noises would just come from nowhere
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and you would just tighten tense up so I grew up in that environment and that's
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why I'm I'm well aware of it which is probably it goes back to that your first question about
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what you need to know about me that's the environment I grew up in so I it was trying to form a sense of myself
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it's constantly being sort of
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it's growing up at a period where you're othered where you're in fear
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and not understanding Who You Are
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was destabilizing I think and I'm in a sense lucky that my house fell down when
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it did and I was able to put it back together again
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where a brick would come from you talk about a story being I think five years old where brick comes through
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the window of your family home well
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[Music] I wrote about it in the book and how how you know exactly mornings was always
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cartoon morning you know Saturday morning cartoons back in the day again you're too young tonight
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um but it was always you know Tom and Jerry and Pepe Le Pew and I love Tom and Jerry it
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was great it was just they were just on constantly so you would sort of
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you know you'd sort of run down and and watch Telly and and my my mum's my mum
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was famous for her breakfasts English breakfast bacon eggs just chips Paula English
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which we used to love and I remember my mum calling us down
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for breakfast and running down the stairs and then hearing this smash and we ran into the lounge
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and there was an English breakfast in glass
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because a brick had come through the window and just there was glass all over our big kitchen
00:16:34
table and we just all sort of stood there in shock and Mom said go back to bed
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drapes back up the road back up to back up to bed but that was a sort of you don't know
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where it came from in the where it came from but we were targets
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your mum's reaction there when I read about this seemed
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uncomfortably calm well what are you gonna do you know and
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she wasn't always calm and there was times when she she did you know grab people by the
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colors and have people up there have people up the wall she's fearless and uh
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you know don't you ever call my son that's like get that name again and she was you know she was
00:17:24
Fearless but at the same time you're powerless in that
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in that setting because you don't know who threw that brick
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and um you're almost you know I think back to it now and think
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you know she she used to sort of walk me to school and be waiting at the school gate to
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walk me home and for me that was it was great to see my mom's face at the end of school
00:17:54
um but I realized later maybe why she did that because when you did go home on your own years later it was a bit of a
00:18:03
minefield you had to be careful
00:18:08
you were a target people don't understand that especially people especially people that haven't experienced race racist debut the idea
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of leaving the school Gates and the the journey home being anxious
00:18:21
and looking over your shoulder anxious there's a good word that's a good word yeah which I you know we I didn't
00:18:26
realize at the time but I think it was a huge amount of anxiety and then the thing that the amazing thing about it is
00:18:33
you might go a week without it you might go two weeks without it you might go three weeks with it and then you and you
00:18:38
relax yeah sure and then you're normal and then Bang casual Wednesday afternoon
00:18:43
middle of the day [ __ ] and suddenly you're right back to being
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scared and uh I I don't really think
00:18:58
my you know I I I I I think my whole sense of self
00:19:03
because you know you do your best to sort of you do your best to normalize
00:19:10
that stuff and think I'm not gonna let it affect me and I always had this and then my mother's
00:19:16
words ringing my head don't let it affect you hold your head up be strong
00:19:22
so you keep thinking no no I'm gonna I'm not gonna let this affect me is that good advice
00:19:31
well you know I think yes yes but um
00:19:38
it doesn't always work it doesn't always work and the the the you know it crystallized for me when
00:19:46
rather foolishly I went I was a leader I don't know why I was a lead United fan
00:19:51
and and um always used to watch watching Leeds United they were the champions back then
00:19:58
and they came to Birmingham one year to to to to play Birmingham city and like a
00:20:04
jackass I thought I'm gonna go and sit in the Leeds end
00:20:09
and back in the day back in the day you could um at half time you could literally walk into the ground
00:20:17
so I thought you know I think I was about 12 maybe about 9 10 or something like that
00:20:23
and I at half time I thought I'm gonna sit with the lease fans
00:20:29
the idea of it now but I walked into the leads and at first it was just a couple of monkey noises
00:20:35
and then it became like a chorus of monkey noises and then he became a chorus of go [ __ ]
00:20:42
and then it seemed like thousands of people was screaming abuse at me and I heard
00:20:48
these words in my my mother's words hold your head up don't be scared
00:20:53
so I thought I'm gonna go and take my seat and I kept walking down the touchline
00:21:00
but it got so loud that in the end I thought I don't want
00:21:06
to sit with these people so I turned around and walked away and
00:21:12
they cheat I remember them cheering but I remember I was really shaken
00:21:18
and I remember that I remember to this day this groundsman well Ward you know to start member of
00:21:24
Staff as I walked out the ground he shot you're like you're right kid and I just went I was nodded and just
00:21:29
walked home but I was really shaken by it because I'd done exactly what my mother
00:21:35
told me to but it didn't work in in your early teens after that your
00:21:42
father's mental health began to deteriorate what were the were there any events that
00:21:49
led up to that I I remember reading about a moment where you come home the lights are on and there's you find your
00:21:54
father's typewriter with one word written on the typewriter yeah you just said illness
00:22:01
uh my dad was a prolific
00:22:06
sort of organizer and uh
00:22:13
he started this this Darts League and
00:22:18
I was always on the typewriter writing out the results and writing out that who's played who and who had won and who
00:22:23
was going through to the next round and who needed the trophy and who was gonna where they were gonna play and what times they played and he just he loved
00:22:30
the darts but he just took too much on
00:22:36
and um he was constantly sort of working at
00:22:41
this organizing this whole thing and organizing the trophies at the end of
00:22:47
the season organizing the meeting organizing that he was just always I think he was just doing it all on his own
00:22:53
and um I I just think he just took
00:23:01
on too much and um
00:23:07
I didn't I didn't necessarily I didn't necessarily see it coming because I was quite Young
00:23:13
but um it happened very very quickly
00:23:19
and I always used to hear my dad go to work in the mornings which is he was Keys
00:23:26
jingle jangle down the stairs that was sort of my alarm
00:23:32
to get up for school was my dad hearing my dad come downstairs and think all right I've got to get up in a minute and for a couple of days I didn't hear
00:23:38
it and then we kept hearing arguments in my in the in my mum and Dad's bedroom
00:23:44
and I thought this is something's not right I'm saying that for a while
00:23:50
I've heard the jingle jangle down the stairs something's off I didn't quite know what it was but I knew something
00:23:56
was off and then one morning I got up and my mom said don't go into the kitchen
00:24:02
get changes up in the bedroom and go straight to school at the front door and um I did
00:24:09
and then that night that's when my mom told me that that had been sectioned so it happened it
00:24:15
happened really quickly and they sort of kept me away from it but unbeknownst to me my
00:24:20
brothers were holding my dad down in the kitchen because he would he he sort of lost it
00:24:29
how do they explain being sectioned to you when you're in your early teens because I you know I
00:24:34
I would have no idea what that meant in my early teens they didn't really and it's
00:24:40
it was you know Dad's not well father's not well he's been taken to hospital and
00:24:46
you know there's always that gig when there was that all there's always that sort of that uh Gadget school that you know the
00:24:55
men in the white coats will take you away you know you'll create that's you know you're crazy or are you gonna be you're going to be taken away
00:25:01
and that's what happened my dad was taken away
00:25:07
um I didn't see it but I I knew he was I knew that he'd been
00:25:13
unknown now obviously I'm having my recent years I know that that's what had happened to him he'd been sectioned
00:25:20
and when I was sectioned um I I suddenly realized
00:25:27
that I suddenly read especially when I was writing the book I thought that's what has happened to him and and that now
00:25:34
it's only once I'd written my book and really understood what that was like
00:25:39
having your Liberty taken away from you because I think that in prison is about the only being locked up in prison about
00:25:45
the only times when your Liberty is taken away from you
00:25:50
and it was only then I started asking myself sort of started looking at my Dad's life
00:25:56
in sort of retrospect and thinking because he hated it my dad hated it
00:26:02
and was never the same again when he when he was released he was never the same again and
00:26:09
I don't think I think he had a really bad time in
00:26:14
there a really really difficult and bad time which I don't think he ever
00:26:20
forgave my mother for understanding what you understand now
00:26:26
about the nature of mental health and what causes it and your own experiences with mental health
00:26:32
when you look at why how your father became to be sectioned
00:26:39
have you got any suspicions about why that happened beyond that he took on too much at the darts
00:26:45
I do think that there was a lot of resentment and anger built up in him and you've got to wonder
00:26:51
why and this is I only found this out again once I started writing my book and started looking at Mental Health
00:26:58
and the numbers of black black people are over represented in the mental health system in this country
00:27:04
and what I realized is that it was Jamaican psychologist who
00:27:11
who actually performed this um study and he realized that black people
00:27:18
there's way less Mental Health in Africa amongst black black communities there is mental health
00:27:24
problems but way less psychosis and but there's more in when they are
00:27:30
transmitted to a western culture so there's more Mental Health episodes of mental health in England
00:27:37
amongst the black community and in America amongst the black community and I think there's something about
00:27:43
I call it in my and this is one of the things that my therapist talks about when you're in a white space
00:27:50
and that's not a derogatory term but England is essentially a
00:27:57
what space and I'm sure you've been in rooms where you're the only person
00:28:03
color the higher ladder when they call it tall poppy syndrome where the higher up the
00:28:08
ladder you get the less yeah on your own people you see and I think you know my thing I think
00:28:15
I think my dad had found it very difficult coming from the Caribbean
00:28:21
and coming to England and
00:28:26
dealing with a completely different mindset I think he'd found that
00:28:33
difficult and um resentment had built up
00:28:40
and I I think I was going to say a point earlier on that illustrates this but a friend of mine used to told me that
00:28:48
his dad used to work on an assembly line and in the days of in the 70s when Jim
00:28:54
Davidson was doing his chalky routine
00:29:01
that and he was the only black person on the assembly line every Monday morning
00:29:06
after new faces or whatever it was that Jim was on the comedians or everything
00:29:11
was doing his chalky thing every Monday morning he would be chalky
00:29:17
and his dad would laugh and take it and and then you know throughout the week they'd be calling him chalky any big
00:29:23
daily development name chalky chalky he's chalky his dad would laugh and then on Friday night his dad would
00:29:30
get drunk and beat the [ __ ] out of him and his mother and I think that was just a buildup of
00:29:37
resentment of having to live in this place where
00:29:45
yeah everyone's calling me this name everyone thinks it's funny and I'm laughing but there's a buildup
00:29:52
of resentment that he then takes out on his family now I'm not saying my I'm not saying my
00:29:58
dad had that level of resentment but I think
00:30:06
it was just something about being here that he started to find difficult to live
00:30:12
with cope with mentally when I read through
00:30:17
your book and also a lot of the stories you've told me today I mean I remember one particular story where you gotta you
00:30:23
got a girlfriend in school and then you come into school the next day her father has said that she can't be with you
00:30:28
because you're black this constant constant rejection social rejection you
00:30:33
used that word earlier on the word rejection and it feels so apt because that's really what's I think in a psychological psychological level going
00:30:39
on even going to the football and then being rejected socially from that crowd and it's constant throughout your story
00:30:45
you know I've read these studies about labeling Theory where when the world tells when you tell somebody they are
00:30:50
something in these studies they they eventually become it so you know there's the famous prison study where they said
00:30:55
you're the guards who are the prisoners they had to stop the study because the guards were so harsh on the prisoners and labeling 3 says exactly that your
00:31:02
teacher says you're a d and you're going to be a failure the chances are that'll actually lower your performance your self-belief how do you stop that
00:31:08
happening when Society has rejected you for years and years and years growing up the most formative time
00:31:13
I think you know I think I was lucky because I I do think that uh
00:31:19
I lived amongst a lot of people who uh you know who didn't Define you that way
00:31:27
so I think that was I was very very lucky for that but
00:31:34
I think I think that person had to I think that house had to come down
00:31:41
which is why I think my breakdown was all about the more I learned about it the more I
00:31:47
realize that that image of that young boy
00:31:53
a desire to start again I had to rebuild my image of self
00:31:58
and um that's what I've sort of it's interesting because I even though it
00:32:04
happened 30 years ago I'm only now just dealing with it because I only found the records I only did that documentary I
00:32:10
only all this is recent and I think if I'd talk to you last year I'd probably be in tears by now because
00:32:18
so much of this is recent for me I'm having to deal with a lot of it I just
00:32:24
I've spent the last 30 years in this sort of cocoon not really dealing with a lot of this stuff
00:32:32
and it's only since reading my medical records and doing that documentary and uncovering all that trauma as I say the
00:32:39
first thing I read when I opened my medical records from 30 years ago which were the medical records that the
00:32:45
BBC found in the bowels of the Whittington psychiatric hospital I had no idea they were going to give
00:32:51
them to me no idea I had no idea they even found them the first thing I read was patient believes
00:32:57
he has merged hearts with a young black boy and I just thought what is that
00:33:05
what is and I just looked through the medical records and it's all to do with my race and my identity
00:33:12
all of it I was just confused I'd sort of Lost
00:33:17
touch with my identity going off to drama school and playing Romeo and Pushkin and doing all
00:33:24
these doing Molly air and Dostoevsky doing all these European romantic you
00:33:30
know playwrights and Shakespeare and all these different characters and thinking my character my color doesn't matter I can do all these wonderful things and
00:33:37
then I came out of drama school and every newspaper article was all about my color
00:33:44
every job I went through was all about my color I could go for these jobs and not these
00:33:49
jobs and I it just
00:33:54
it was like it it was like I hadn't
00:34:00
was like I hadn't um dealt with it
00:34:05
and dealt with my core identity as a young black man and
00:34:12
it all started to just I started overthink it
00:34:17
what was your core identity that you hadn't dealt with as a black man
00:34:22
I think just understanding myself as you what your first question was understanding myself in the world and
00:34:28
knowing having confidence in myself there's too many questions about my identity I think
00:34:34
one of the things I did when I saw a therapist after my documentary
00:34:42
was I sought out I've had therapy many times in my life
00:34:51
but I sought out a black therapist a black male therapist and that has been really strikingly
00:34:56
revealing to me because some of the questions I had he
00:35:04
would kind of say well what do you think why do you think like that and he would question why I think like that and
00:35:11
I found it remarkable how he was able to make me understand that a
00:35:18
lot of things that I most a lot of my fears a lot of my insecurities only natural uh
00:35:26
maybe potentially because I have maybe grown up
00:35:31
predominantly in the white environment and maybe I didn't
00:35:39
maybe I wasn't comfortable with myself I'm much more comfortable with myself now
00:35:47
what were those fears and insecurities
00:35:53
foreign black man
00:36:01
you know great at dancing great at sex great chatting women upgraded it's great at
00:36:08
that and I felt maybe that I didn't always live
00:36:15
up to that and if you have that idea that
00:36:21
you can only be one way as a black man but the world is telling you that you could only be this way
00:36:29
then you sort of don't feel like you measure up and actually I've learned yeah you can be
00:36:35
vulnerable that's okay you can be sensitive that's okay you
00:36:42
um it's okay to be not be you know
00:36:49
darkest McFly you know who just beats down all the girls dances fantastically
00:36:54
does you know he's the Alpha Black it's okay not to be the alpha black guy
00:37:02
it's okay and uh that's taken me a while to sort of understand about
00:37:09
myself I think Jay-Z it's interesting I think there's a thing about Jay-Z talks about
00:37:16
the gold silver bronze the gold I think it's a book called How to be black it's a very very funny book
00:37:22
we talked about the gold silver bronze um black man you know the gold born in
00:37:27
the ghetto black wife black friends you know silver ball in the ghetto
00:37:33
black wife went to University bronze
00:37:40
you know and you sort of you sort of get less and less you're almost like you get less it must be copper or something yeah
00:37:47
and and then you see but then you see the effects of that in schools where you go where you have teachers will tell me
00:37:53
that you know you get a really intelligent black kid but just to fit in with his peer groups he won't work as
00:37:58
hard because he fears the more intelligent he is the less black he is the brighter he is the less black he's
00:38:05
seen the more and I hate that isn't that funny being rejected by the White Community but also the black community
00:38:10
well that's exactly what I had so you know when I came out of Radha so I had I had tough I had this sort of when I was
00:38:18
started being an actor you know blackmens I'm like you're gonna be a what that's too white
00:38:23
you're too white man and then I went to Radha and kind of did all these Shakespeare all these plays and I came
00:38:29
out speaking like this and everybody went he's way too white and so you're getting rejected by the
00:38:37
press and critics because you're black and then you were also being rejected by the black community because they you
00:38:42
don't look or see them sound like you know man from the ends you don't
00:38:48
sound like you don't talk like that so I really did feel like I was
00:38:54
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heal for making a product that I actually like The Salted Caramel is my favorite I've got the banana one here which is the one my girlfriend likes but
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for me salted caramel is the one at age 23 I think it's age 23 you
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um that's that's around the time you were sectioned yeah this is a very
00:41:00
strange way of asking the question but in hindsight knowing now what you know about why you were sectioned what was
00:41:06
going on in your life your mind your environment the Press professionally personally
00:41:13
what would you have had to change a void do differently
00:41:20
before then to have avoided that happening
00:41:29
that's a million dollar question this really is a million dollar question and I'm not sure there was any
00:41:37
anything I could have done I think that
00:41:42
I think it had to come down so I I'm I'm a great believer that
00:41:51
in trauma there's a lesson that there was something in that for me of
00:41:57
value I don't think any I don't think I mean I was very lucky that I came out
00:42:02
of it but I do believe and as I have got older in my life
00:42:08
and having written the book and having had so many people tell me since writing that book
00:42:16
has so many people say thank you I'm not crazy thank you he really you
00:42:22
really articulated everything that goes on in my some of the frustrations that comments I've only given voice to a
00:42:27
thing to things that a lot of people experience just I took it to an extreme I think
00:42:33
and I think it's probably uh as an artist as an actor has benefited
00:42:38
some of my work it's enabled me to take things perhaps a step further than maybe what some people
00:42:45
can take things I think it's given me a perspective I think there's something I think there
00:42:52
was something of value for oh in it for me I don't
00:42:58
I think it had to happen I don't think I could have done anything to have stopped it which is
00:43:05
both um scary and um worrying
00:43:11
what do you remember about that time because it seems to be quite a blur when you recount the events you it's almost
00:43:17
like you have these abstract memories of just different moments well it's interesting because I do believe I I
00:43:22
started this process thinking that it was going to be fun
00:43:28
because it's like manic you know manic depression it is often psychosis
00:43:35
like like it's often preceded with a Mania heightened
00:43:41
Adrenaline Rush dopamine the dopamine levels in your brain are heightened and
00:43:46
it's quite exciting I'm not getting sleep it's often drug induced and you are
00:43:52
really sort of operating at this quite high level
00:43:57
and I I remember doing some pretty extraordinary things I remember brief
00:44:03
moments of real sort of mental acuity and
00:44:10
dare I say there was almost moments of fun
00:44:17
but it's usually preceded by a crash so I sort of went into this thinking I'm
00:44:23
gonna I'm gonna remember all our fun things I did some of the extraordinary things I did
00:44:28
and there were some really Wild things I was experimenting with
00:44:35
a sense of reality what was real and what wasn't real thinking I could do anything and
00:44:40
it was uh bizarrely
00:44:46
exciting give me an example of something that you recount that is well it's interesting
00:44:52
because my one of the Consultants that was in the documentary
00:44:57
tells me that um because I thought she asked me for an example and I
00:45:05
I said I was walking walking down the street one one morning I hadn't slept all night
00:45:11
and uh there was a guy across the road and he had this huge Doberman
00:45:18
huge kind of massive muscular and I'm normally quite afraid of dogs
00:45:26
and I just walked up to this I walked up to this guy said what's that dog's name and he
00:45:32
jab or something and I looked at this dog and I screamed the dog's name and looks at this dog quite aggressively and
00:45:37
right in its face and the dog just literally literally lay on the floor and started
00:45:43
whelping whelping on its back just freaked out
00:45:48
and the consultant said to me that often dogs can pick up um
00:45:56
some some uh Energies
00:46:02
Disturbed images and I'd obviously really this guy was really freaked out he said the dog was
00:46:08
literally whelping and moaning on the floor and I just fixed this dog with no
00:46:13
fear and screened its name right in its face just freaked the dog out at night you were sectioned I read I
00:46:21
read that you were you hailed a taxi and it was ultimately the exchange of the taxi driver I mean this was an extraordinary I mean that was an
00:46:27
extraordinary and again it was the voice of Martin Luther King that was in my head
00:46:33
you hear voices and when you uh one of the aspects of
00:46:39
psychosis which is what I suffered from you can hear voices he'd have Illusions
00:46:45
illusions delusions that seem incredibly real to you
00:46:55
and um I was lying in bed and I just heard this voice in my head
00:47:02
wake up in bed looking around the room thinking where's that come from
00:47:09
and this voice was in my head it sounds totally bizarre but
00:47:14
his voice was in my head and he went on to say look I don't want to tell you who I am right now because you're going to be really scared
00:47:20
but you have to go to Camden you have to walk into this store don't
00:47:26
be surprised if it's open it's three o'clock in the morning don't be surprised to open whatever you do do not turn around and it was all these things
00:47:32
I had to do whatever you do don't do this whatever you do don't do that but then go to go
00:47:38
into this store walk to the back of the store there's going to be one suit hanging up on a rack in the back at the
00:47:44
back of the store you need to put this suit on and when you turn around don't be surprised to find out that it's two
00:47:50
o'clock in the afternoon I said I'm gonna I'm going to close the space time continuum and we are going to close the
00:47:57
gap between good and evil this whole thing and it was it ended up being Martin Luther King he said he was Martin Luther
00:48:03
King and he said when you when you
00:48:08
because I played mine as a king as a kid and it was my first the first acting thing that I'd ever
00:48:14
done he said when you played me as a child I entered your heart
00:48:20
and when I was he said even though I'm speaking to you from Beyond the Grave
00:48:25
I need you and two or three other people in in the world to
00:48:31
activate something and close the the the gap between good
00:48:37
and evil and he said so you're going to sacrifice yourself tonight and you're going to be an angel and this voice was
00:48:44
swear to you was like real in my head
00:48:49
and I'm sobbing in my bedroom listening to this voice so tonight's the night and
00:48:55
that was the night I was eventually sectioned but I got up got my clothes on and walked all the way
00:49:03
to Camden obviously the shop was closed
00:49:09
it's 10 o'clock in the morning you know I'm out of my nuts so um
00:49:14
and I was exhausted and I thought I've got to go home and flagged a cab down
00:49:22
and I didn't have any money and uh I don't remember I just I just remember this driver looking around and
00:49:29
then the driver pulling over and then um lots of flashing lights obviously the
00:49:35
police and then being in the back of a police wagon and then
00:49:41
sitting in a cell and all this was just I'm in and out of
00:49:47
what seemed like a dream for me I didn't I I was in and out of I remember being in this cell and then going to
00:49:54
magistrates court in the morning and not remembering when they didn't
00:49:59
remember my name at all didn't know who I was couldn't remember who I was
00:50:07
and um the duty solicitor sort of talking about
00:50:14
my mom and then said my dad's name is Romeo and I went Romeo hang on a minute I've played Romeo
00:50:21
yeah I played Romeo played running you David David that's I used my I used my sort of
00:50:27
career to get back to who I was
00:50:32
then left went to court
00:50:38
and I had no idea what was happening in this court I mean I was the judge was speaking at me and I was just
00:50:44
a mess and I walked out of court and again
00:50:50
lucky but some woman who'd been in the court walked out and said
00:50:57
to me are you okay and I said I don't think so I don't know I don't know who I am and
00:51:03
she gets she said where do you live and I said I can't remember she said what's your nearest Tube Station
00:51:08
and I said yeah hybridizlington and she flagged the cab down gave the driver 10
00:51:14
pounds said take him to hybrid Islington and I got out of Hope in Islington
00:51:19
walked home and my friends were waiting for me because I've been looking for me all night couldn't find me
00:51:26
and that's the night that's the day that they knew something was even though they'd
00:51:31
been sitting with me and visiting me for the last couple of weeks because they knew something was off
00:51:38
they knew it wasn't well and that's the weird thing about mental health or particularly psychosis
00:51:44
you see somebody acting very strangely something you love
00:51:49
it could be your son your husband your mom your they just suddenly start acting out of character
00:51:55
becoming obsessed with something or it's like they just suddenly change and
00:52:01
you know you know something's wrong but you sort of Hope desperately hoping
00:52:07
that they sort of come back and that's sometimes you know they don't and you have to make that call
00:52:13
to have them sectioned and luckily for me my friends had been there because if
00:52:19
they weren't there I think I would have been in real trouble oh my God I would have been in real trouble
00:52:25
if that would have continued I'm not even sure I would have been
00:52:30
here today so I was very lucky
00:52:37
how long did that process last before you were sectioned of the slope the sort of gradual deterioration well I think it
00:52:43
was happening for a while because I I remember working and not feeling great
00:52:49
so I'd say at least two or three months there was a slow progression of
00:52:57
not sleeping overthinking trying to hide that
00:53:04
drinking to sort of self-medicate a new one wasn't well
00:53:11
but I thought I could handle it I'm trying to understand how much of that you believe is to a physiological
00:53:19
biological situation or maybe predisposed by biology versus circumstance experience
00:53:26
and the things that you'd been through I think and again I mean we didn't you
00:53:33
know speaking to my con the consultant who was working on my documentary It's a
00:53:39
combination of both things your propensity your your
00:53:50
uh the chances of you having a breakdown are sort of reliant on levels of stress
00:53:57
lack of sleep what's called Aces which are these fundamental like people who
00:54:05
experience trauma in life I mean for me I think it was
00:54:13
my parents divorce and not dealing with that
00:54:18
not dealing with that at the time so much of it has just been squashed not dealing with some of the trauma that was
00:54:24
in my life and I think a lot of it was coming out
00:54:29
slowly coming out then in that one slow progression of being deeply unhappy
00:54:35
why why were you deeply unhappy I read that and I thought what I as I say I came out
00:54:41
of drama school and the hostility
00:54:47
that I was met with as a young black actor was ferocious newspapers newspapers
00:54:55
reviews just dismissing me completely dismissing me and I sort of left John's school with a bit of heat people are all
00:55:01
really excited to see what I was going to do and school was very very excited to you know everybody was talking about this young
00:55:08
young kid coming out of drama school it's going to be you know and I just got
00:55:13
slaughtered slaughtered all about race all about race
00:55:19
I played Sloan in Entertaining Mr Sloan Mrs lonia who is quite a devious bisexual character
00:55:27
murder he's actually also a murderer and um not only there was one review a black
00:55:34
reviewer who said who was outraged that I'd taken the part because I was letting the side down
00:55:42
and he said that people should go and demonstrate their disapproval of Mr harewood's choice of employment
00:55:50
and I read it I was like wow put that down and I noticed that night
00:55:59
people as Sloane has this really kind of tough monologue
00:56:05
we talked about abusing somebody and in the middle of this monologue I saw people get up and walk out
00:56:12
and I noticed that they were black and then the next night more black people started walking out and it was
00:56:18
always in the middle of that monologue black people would get up and walk out
00:56:25
and it was really tough to deal with it was really tough to try and they were
00:56:31
such Chop Sing and but as they walked out
00:56:37
and sort of it was really disturbing me because I had to
00:56:43
get on with the play and that was only the second act there was another three so the whole way
00:56:48
through that play I Was sort of coping with why did they walk out get on with the play seems to be quite
00:56:54
an apt metaphor for that period of your life yeah and I wasn't really dealing with it so dealing with the fundamentals so I
00:57:01
think that's when the drinking started to to be able to get through the play I
00:57:07
started drinking to be able to I started self-medicating so I was drinking a lot before during after the show smoking
00:57:15
after the show and the whole thing the stress the smoke the overthinking
00:57:23
lack of sleep lack of sleep just ended up making me spiral
00:57:29
how long from being section to getting back to acting how long was that sort of recovery process per se it was a lot
00:57:36
quicker than I realized actually which I which surprised me I thought it was going to be months but it was I was
00:57:42
sectioned for about five days initially and then again in Birmingham
00:57:48
for another five days um and then the recovery was just about
00:57:57
convincing my mother that I was okay because she was she was convinced that it was acting it was acting that sent me
00:58:02
crazy and then I was never going to act again and that I was never going to go back to London again I was never going to be
00:58:07
allowed to act again uh so she kind of watched me like a hawk
00:58:13
for about a month maybe a month six weeks
00:58:19
and eventually uh she she allowed me to travel back
00:58:25
down to London and get on with my career I sat here with uh Maisie Williams
00:58:32
um the young Game of Thrones actress and she talked to me about how act acting was a form of escapism in her life
00:58:38
because her home had such little joy that acting became this place almost this therapeutic place where she could I guess in some respects abandon that
00:58:45
identity and I remember reading from this like Swedish philosopher which I wrote about my book Once Upon a Time who
00:58:52
said that when we um if we try and abandon ourselves um well ultimately just bear around he
00:58:57
wrote this 200 years ago so he was just you know yeah if it's still true that's right yeah that's why I really it always
00:59:03
stayed with me if we try and abandon ourselves and we're successful we'll despair at the fact that we've abandoned
00:59:08
ourselves and our identity if we try and abandon ourselves and we're unsuccessful we'll despair at being unsuccessful in
00:59:13
our in our attempts to become other than we are and he concludes in his like big philosopher piece that the only true way
00:59:21
to be happy is to accept that which you who you are and to not abandon yourself
00:59:26
um he you know that's his conclusion after this long study that he's done on people um it that kind of felt almost quite
00:59:33
true when I think about what acting is in many respects but for Maisie it was this this attempt to abandon the self
00:59:38
and actually to not confront the issues and then she ultimately had to at some point confront those issues and what had gone
00:59:45
on in her family home what her father had done to her but acting was her Escape at 12 or 13.
00:59:52
is any of that reminiscent to or does any of that ring true specifically this idea of like the role acting played in
00:59:58
identity for you acting is the only space I feel 100
01:00:06
confident in why because everyone knows the lines
01:00:12
everyone knows where they're going to go everyone knows the movement everyone knows the play on stage I just feel it's
01:00:19
probably my what's where I'm at my happiest why it's I can't explain it I just become
01:00:27
you become somebody else you know when you're when you're
01:00:32
the true nature of a thing of art it's like somebody who paints I think you know they want to create something and
01:00:38
they're free to create like Van Gogh could be taught that it could be tortured but he can still produce an
01:00:44
amazing piece of art you said that I'm not disappointing because I become someone else so what does that say about
01:00:51
oneself if I'm myself I'm full of this insecurities there's doubts there's
01:00:56
there's decisions to make there's about which is what which is why life I think
01:01:01
is so unique I don't know what you're going to say next none of us know that's what's so
01:01:08
beautiful about it and so fantastic about it but on stage it's a controlled environment so for those two hours
01:01:14
can be king Lear I can be a fellow and I completely put myself into that and it's
01:01:20
that's I feel it's like I'm at I guess you would I guess you could say I'm football to say that
01:01:26
you know on the pitch no problems George best on the pitch a
01:01:32
genius off it an alcoholic somebody who can't con somebody who
01:01:38
can't cope Maradona on the pitch a genius off the pitch something else you
01:01:45
can't cope with life life is uncontrollable life is
01:01:51
full of contradictions full of difference full of
01:01:57
failures and success it's just it's it's
01:02:03
uh it's very difficult to distill whereas on stage
01:02:11
I know you know I can play that and I can put myself into that and pour myself
01:02:18
into that character and I feel great it's the most freeing place for me it's the most
01:02:24
freeing thing I could it can I've ever experienced and that's why I love it so
01:02:31
much that's What Maisie said she said it was for her she said actually it was the only place she experienced Joy yeah I could not
01:02:37
completely completely understand that but what that not to be repetitive but
01:02:43
what is that saying about the nature of our our life in terms of why can't life be joyous as equally joyous what would
01:02:50
we have to do to make our our acting life when we're King well that's the secret I guess and that's that's the
01:02:56
secret of sort of finding a place where you can be and I'm sort of on the way you know where you can experience joy
01:03:04
and I think that's that's a it's a lifelong struggle but you have to
01:03:10
work at it 2019 you was the the first time 2017-2019 was the first time she
01:03:17
really opened up about your experiences in terms of to the Press I'd always I I mean like that's that was the
01:03:24
shock of it is that I tweeted 2017 tweet randomly tweeted
01:03:30
as somebody who's had a breakdown just want to say look have a great that was meant World mental health day oh yeah somebody's had a breakdown I just want
01:03:36
to say look after yourself today get some help if you can got on the plane flew to America got off the plane 50 000 retweets
01:03:43
calls from ITV calls from the BBC course from the guardian calls from the Independent oh my God you had to break a
01:03:49
nice completely forgot I hadn't gone public with it I've told everybody it's been a bit of an anecdote for me a
01:03:56
bit of a late night drunken anecdote for me that I'd had a breakdown and spent time in a minute but it's only since
01:04:02
doing that and I've really looked at it and really understood it that
01:04:08
moment of oversharing has led to all of this has led to my first book it's going
01:04:13
to lead to my second book it's led to this Reckoning which would not have happened had I not
01:04:21
have sent that tweet 2019 you um produced the documentary hmm
01:04:27
everybody talks about that documentary really incredibly powerful but just artistically brilliant in so many ways
01:04:34
but so many people talk about it you know I even had members of my team put in big brackets it is so good when they
01:04:40
were referring to a documentary they don't usually do that it was really profound and important in so many ways how did that change your life
01:04:50
again because um and it's this is really hard but I'd I'd
01:04:56
seen that documentary almost a thousand times because I watched it every day a year before it
01:05:02
went out the night it went out I was absolutely terrified and I as soon
01:05:09
as I saw adverts for it I panicked and I was you need to call the BBC and
01:05:15
said I don't want to go I I just take it off take it off I was really scared and and that that was really unusual with me
01:05:22
because I'd seen it and I I was happy with it but going public with it was a whole
01:05:28
nother thing and I was really scared really anxious and the hot I think the
01:05:34
whole house picked up on it because my kids went to bed early my wife went to bed early
01:05:40
you know and she watches you know she went and she was like she was afterwards
01:05:47
she said she was wearing the you know the kids might get ribbed at school or you know your dad's there is that
01:05:53
and I didn't even thought about that I suddenly thought [ __ ] you know
01:05:59
I'm letting people in here and I was really scared and I remember I that night I had a
01:06:06
therapy session online with my therapist and when we finished it it was kind of dark and I thought
01:06:12
well it's got half an hour left to go I'm not even going to watch it I'm just gonna go to bed
01:06:17
and I was just about to go to sleep and see every single device in my house
01:06:24
was beat everything was just buzzing and it was I
01:06:29
lost God and then the house house phone went and I jumped out of bed to I didn't want to wake the house and it was my mom
01:06:37
and first thing she said was brilliant and that really calmed me down I went on
01:06:43
my watch when she said I've just watched it she said it's brilliant well done son
01:06:48
huge side relief and then started looking at all these messages and emails and they were all
01:06:55
really emotional and like and moving
01:07:01
and um went to bed and got up enrollment to take my dog for a
01:07:07
walk like I normally and I could not walk 10 feet without complete strangers
01:07:14
coming up to me in tears I swear to God going I just want to say Mr Hayward
01:07:20
thank you and I'm normally when you're an actor people leave you alone you know what it's like when you're on
01:07:25
the telephone that's that God for telly but suddenly it was Mr Harewood not the
01:07:31
guy from the Homeland or the guy from Supergirl or the guy from it was Mr Harewood excuse me I just want to say
01:07:38
thank you so much tears strolling down their face my dad had a breakdown and we never talked about it and just want to
01:07:44
say the fact that you we all suddenly started talking about it and start talking about Dad and
01:07:49
I'm blubbing there crying then I go thank you very much walk up somebody else excuse me Mr hair we just want to
01:07:55
say and I I suddenly realized how common it is and how everybody was touched by it
01:08:01
because you just don't talk about it it's a shame attached to to particularly psychosis
01:08:08
and particularly to being taken away it's a shame attached to it for some
01:08:13
reason maybe because I'm an actor I have no shame so me a recognizable
01:08:21
successful actor talking about it allowed them to talk about it got a call
01:08:28
from mine saying phone's ringing off the hook people are talking about psychosis because they
01:08:33
didn't they didn't that now they understand what happened to their son now they understand what's happening to
01:08:39
their who's only just been sectioned that morning and on this book tour I've constantly
01:08:45
do signings and um
01:08:50
nearly every single time I sign I go to one of these book tours
01:08:56
there's somebody who comes up to buy the book for it to get signed and they're crying and they go I've just come out of
01:09:02
a mental institution I just want to say seeing you it gives me hope
01:09:07
that I can get better or there's a mother who says my son's just been crying her eyes out
01:09:13
my son's just been sectioned he was away at drama he was away at school because it happens normally when kids go to
01:09:19
university or when they go away from home and they might smoke they might drink they might
01:09:25
find themselves in a strange environment that's when it happens and uh
01:09:31
the amount of times I've had to kind of get up and just hug the stranger and just say they'll get better
01:09:37
I sometimes sit here with people and there's a moment where they let the wall down and the wall can be a number of
01:09:43
things sometimes it's sexuality sometimes it's something that they've been holding inside of them you know they might have told friends but letting
01:09:49
the world in and then feeling that feedback that that you know people did weren't attacking them they didn't lose
01:09:55
their job and and that sometimes can be quite a liberating thing from then on once we've let the wall down whatever it
01:10:01
is and really let people in and see our our deepest insecurities or our fears life can feel different we can be more
01:10:07
open and honest and vulnerable and can't say that happened because I then had three years of dealing with it yes tell
01:10:13
me about that because I thought oh okay I've let the world in and as you say Where's that moment of
01:10:21
relief yeah and it was torture because I couldn't cope
01:10:28
with all these people coming up and saying thank you so much normally you've
01:10:34
got that shield and said you've got that Shield as a recognizable face where people don't bother you on the train people don't bother you in the street
01:10:40
but they were and they were coming with these really emotional stories some people some people's parents died
01:10:48
being restrained now I I talk about seven policemen jumping on me and giving
01:10:54
me what's called an emergency tranquilization I'll talk about that in my book how I survive that I don't know because
01:11:01
countless people have died like that black people being restrained by police the amount of
01:11:07
Crim the criminalization of that the criminalization particularly black people in that period of illness of
01:11:14
psychosis is look at the people in America you people shot
01:11:19
because they're acting strange they're in they're in a moment of medical crisis but they happen to be naked running down
01:11:27
the street screaming you will get shot people don't understand it people have been arrested
01:11:32
people have been one guy knew he was having one guy I met knew he was having a breakdown I went to the hospital
01:11:39
they refused to treat him went to another hospital they refused to treat him started banging on the door they called the police he got arrested he got
01:11:45
into he got sent to prison and he was only in prison that he got treated so this whole book is has really opened
01:11:52
up the whole how particularly people of color are criminalized at a moment of crisis
01:12:00
by being arrested and then being treated like for me it was only when I showed
01:12:05
the book to my consultant she said do you realize you were given three times the legal doses of tranquilizers
01:12:14
and I said why is that she said well it was it's and then I again once the book got out I had somebody
01:12:19
contact me saying this is standard practice because most people are afraid of big
01:12:27
black men so most times a large black man is sectioned you will get knocked the [ __ ]
01:12:34
out for no medical reason other than we're scared of this big guy let's just up the
01:12:40
dose here and that's all it was so it just all this stuff was coming out
01:12:47
all these stuff was coming at me and I couldn't really
01:12:52
process it and I remember going into my therapist and just flying my eyes out because it's
01:12:58
too much it's too much I can't cope with it and funnily enough my medical records
01:13:04
that I find in the documentary I hadn't opened those
01:13:09
notes for two years since I got them since filming it but before I wrote the book and I knew
01:13:16
where they were they were in my flat in Vancouver and exactly where they were and
01:13:21
once I decided to write the book I remember flying back to shoots the next season of Supergirl
01:13:28
and we flew into quarantine because it was a couple years ago so you had 14 days on your own and the first thing I
01:13:34
did walk in the flat got my medical records out and I read them cover to cover
01:13:40
and that was really tough because you're reading your Disturbed self everything
01:13:45
that I'd said done was was recorded so I'm reading all the stuff I did and
01:13:52
flashes of moments that I thought [ __ ] that's where that memory comes from second Pace in the middle of the office
01:13:58
and just the most weird stuff that I did and
01:14:03
said is it scary to know that it's you're capable of going getting to that place
01:14:09
yes no and and you know again I think of myself thinking about the acting side of it you
01:14:15
know I've always had this ability to not method but I really throw myself into a
01:14:22
character and I love that and I think maybe there's part of me
01:14:29
that having pushed myself having let myself go not many people
01:14:36
go there I literally went crazy crossed the line into unacceptable
01:14:43
Behavior where your behavior is deemed we have to
01:14:49
take you away unsafe for yourself and for others sectioned
01:14:55
I've crossed that line so for me now I think
01:15:01
in acting anything up to that line is fair game it's a fair game and I love it
01:15:07
and I that's why I would more will push push myself and I look for characters
01:15:13
who are like that because who do push uh that's what I don't know that's what
01:15:19
makes acting so so great for me and so exciting because I can behave like something somebody else but even reading
01:15:25
about even reading about psychosis is someone that's never been through it it makes me realize that it's completely
01:15:34
possible for me to find myself in that situation absolutely anybody and that and that's what because you know when I
01:15:39
grow up with mental health I thought something happened to other people and then you and then you get a flavor of it right yourself and you go [ __ ] we can
01:15:46
all we all have uh mental health and and reading the stories of psychosis and how
01:15:52
a very normal young man can quite quickly apparently quickly very quickly
01:15:58
yeah but I mean you from what you've described it's a series of events over time but apparently very quickly fall
01:16:04
into that situation in some respects makes me
01:16:10
realize that you know we are very highly strong individually I'm in the brain
01:16:16
yeah you know how incredible that is an incredible muscle an incredible one so there's thousands
01:16:21
of of of uh firing Electro at five thousands
01:16:28
every day just going off in our brains some of the misfire
01:16:34
and you some of them very quickly can lead to you taking your
01:16:40
own life and you know I know how having you know having been there I said
01:16:46
I was I'm just lucky that I think my doctor said it that he said you know we're lucky David is uh
01:16:54
calm essentially a clown because my psychosis played out
01:17:01
in all sorts of silly ways but that I did everything that voice
01:17:06
told me to do that night had that voice of told me to jump off Thames Bridge I would have done it
01:17:13
I would have done it so I've met people who the voice told them
01:17:19
to throw themselves in front of as that young girl in the documentaries throw yourself in front of the next white van
01:17:25
and she did and he hit her
01:17:30
you know it is it is a very powerful
01:17:37
thing and it can happen to anybody
01:17:44
where did you find yourself today so you're three or three or four years on now from that documentary coming out and
01:17:51
you've been on that Journey as you describe it of rebuilding the house and yeah I think you know it's taken me this
01:17:58
long to I think I've come through I think I was really in pain I didn't realize at the time but I think
01:18:04
I was really specific when the documentary went out I was very very vulnerable
01:18:11
and it really was painful I and I it was uncomfortable
01:18:16
and I used I get what I would get very emotional I'd be in Tesco's and somebody had come
01:18:22
up to me as I bought my sausages to say I saw your documentary and I would just
01:18:28
go they'd go I'd go why being reminded of it was they would make
01:18:35
me cry because they'd tell me about their uncle and they'd start going I don't know it's
01:18:41
something about the helplessness of seeing a loved one
01:18:47
acting very out of character and some of them don't recover
01:18:54
because you don't understand it so I I used to find it very emotional and I think I've moved through that
01:19:01
period of vulnerability into a period of healing
01:19:06
and I think I'm in that healing period now I said to you if you just if we'd have done this doc this podcast last
01:19:12
year I don't think I'd have got through it like this it would have and every now and again I find a rising emotional
01:19:17
level as I'm talking about it now because I know it sounds very weird
01:19:24
yeah I feel like everyone must be sitting there thinking God he's nuts so you know
01:19:29
but I sort of dealt with that was there ever any regrets about doing that documentary yes really yes
01:19:37
which all disappeared the morning after I it went out the the regrets were all the night before after all the regrets
01:19:43
were and then maybe afterwards there was like maybe I've said too much you know maybe people don't now see because since
01:19:50
then I've done a lot more a lot more documentaries and um more documentaries than I have
01:19:57
dramas and I've been back in England now for a year
01:20:03
and in America I was playing leading characters three-dimensional authoritative characters and I haven't had a single
01:20:11
offer of anything like that since coming back and that's been really worrying I
01:20:16
suddenly thought thing well maybe I would say too much or maybe I'm not you know
01:20:22
you know I thought maybe I may be across the line but I don't care anymore and I've sort
01:20:29
of sort of gone well I'm embracing who I am now okay sorry you you've since you came back from America yeah you haven't had
01:20:36
enough uh to play leading characters not one and do you have a suspicion that that's to do with I I worried that
01:20:43
that's what I'm saying you say you know you you talk about do I think there was a fear of that I don't think that's the
01:20:49
case yeah but it's just but but again those are insecutors and fears and maybe
01:20:54
I've said too much maybe people feel now or you don't want One reviewer said oh
01:20:59
David all we see him now is in documentaries I said but the only reason you see me in that is because I'm not going to play some [ __ ] role hmm
01:21:05
I want complexity I want a challenge so when I'm finding that in the world of
01:21:11
documentaries and I really enjoy doing that this has never been done before
01:21:16
ever keeping a diary has fundamentally changed my life it's the single thing
01:21:22
that has advanced my personal development more than anything else that I've done I always say there's no
01:21:27
personal development without self-awareness you can read as many books as you like but if you can't read
01:21:32
yourself you'll never learn a thing this is the world's first Diary that listens
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01:21:44
Finance work and relationships so that you can overcome the things that are limiting you in order to reach your
01:21:50
Highest Potential a limited number of these Diaries are going to go on sale in November and the waiting list is open
01:21:56
now so go to thediary.com and add your name if you want to come on this journey with me
01:22:02
your career as an actor um and now as an entrepreneur and many other things in a director unbelievably
01:22:09
um successful unbelievably successful um against many many odds why you
01:22:15
yeah you have the talent you're a Class Clown you said that you know back in the school days and all these things you're a funny guy but that's not enough
01:22:21
I know lots of funny people they're not actors I don't think that's for me to say no
01:22:27
but this is this is why it's such a tough question because I actually think only you would read you know people
01:22:32
might have told you along the years but I really think that when you look at your peers that's one way I've tried to figure myself out is what makes me
01:22:38
different from these other my peers in my industry and I go oh ah that's the
01:22:43
thing I'm particularly good at that bit there that's interesting though because you know
01:22:48
and again maybe I'm over sharing but you know my therapist we talk you know sometimes you know when I first
01:22:54
started to ask him about this not living up to this ideal blackness
01:22:59
he said well part of the reason why you have been so successful is because
01:23:05
you are this you can go it can be over here you can be over
01:23:12
there you're formless and then I love that Bruce Lee will say it's not be like water
01:23:17
you pull water into cup it's a cup you pour water into a bottle it's a bottle you pull water into a teacup it's a
01:23:23
teacup I haven't tried to be one thing and I think some actors come out think I'm going to be like this
01:23:29
and I'm going to be like that and I haven't I changed my voice because I didn't want to play brummies All My Life
01:23:36
so I learned the RP I can do if I wanted to do Street I can do Street well which is always used to
01:23:42
pissed me up when I was young because people got always a bit too rather it's a Carrick I play characters but because
01:23:49
you're I don't know maybe black actors don't play characters they just play black people play characters and I think that
01:23:57
that USP that I've had that I like playing characters has enabled me to
01:24:06
change and it's also what's constrained me because as I said to you when I came out
01:24:11
of drama school you would you weren't an actor you were a black actor these days you're allowed to be an actor
01:24:17
John boyega is an actor Daniel kaluya is an actor he's not a black actor when I came out I was a
01:24:24
black actor and I found it so constricting I'm more than this I can
01:24:29
play anything and that's maybe you know that's what I
01:24:35
think is my of my generation that's probably one of the things that I
01:24:42
perhaps gave me my unique USP it's funny the things that often give us
01:24:47
our USPS are also entirely linked to the things that give us our difficulties and
01:24:54
our struggles and it seems to be the case in what you've said it's funny because what I heard from all of that is that your versity your versatility as an
01:25:00
actor came from the versatility that you you've had to demonstrate in your real life as well
01:25:05
100 and I think that my experience particularly
01:25:11
getting out you know getting out of a mental institution acting my way out of my institution uh
01:25:18
it's all been good training and I think you know my Crossing that line has given
01:25:23
me that USB that kid that came out of radar if you could have a chat with him if he was sat here
01:25:29
you could just say a couple of sentences to him the sentence is I would 100 tell
01:25:34
him and I tell this to all young actors two young people be prepared for
01:25:41
the tough times people think it's going to be life is going to be roses and people think it's going to be easy
01:25:46
and yeah things are great now but be prepared for when things get a bit Rocky
01:25:52
because they will get Rocky tough time you know yourself in business it's not all about
01:25:57
winning sometimes you learn your best lessons in failures
01:26:02
so I would would just and again we'll talk about this with my therapist that
01:26:10
I didn't take care of my younger self I did I didn't take care of him so now I
01:26:16
try and take care of my younger self and I always try and tell people look after yourself
01:26:22
really look after yourself because what does that mean to you look after yourself
01:26:28
uh control what I can control and don't if I don't get a job I don't
01:26:34
get a job I can't there's nothing I can do about that I can control how I feel about it
01:26:40
and just think it wasn't for me and right now as I said to you
01:26:46
there's thousands of things that are going my way and thousands of calls again acting maybe not but that's okay
01:26:52
it'll come around maybe it'll come around I can't control that I can control what I can control so I've just got to keep
01:27:00
myself sharp look after myself don't allow I could easily allow myself to get down now because I've not been
01:27:07
working but I'm I'm busier than I've ever been outside of that creating this company
01:27:15
looking to recreate other work doing documentaries meeting people it's it's a very exciting time for me
01:27:21
and I wouldn't have had this time had I been starring in some show so
01:27:28
there's benefits to having time on your hands when you said that about controlling what you can control it made
01:27:34
me realize that this word popped into my head I almost imagined myself stood at a Crossroads and one path was like control
01:27:40
what I can control and that says left acceptance and on the other hand the right turning
01:27:46
is the resentment that you said your father had which is that slowly slowly slow Insidious build up of like
01:27:53
resentment towards the world it's a choice it can't go that way and I'm determined not to go that way is keep it
01:28:00
open Keep attracting Good Vibes and at the moment that's where it's
01:28:06
leading and it's very it's a very exciting time I've only been back a year as well so who knows what's going to happen we have
01:28:12
a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest before I ask you the question I actually was really intrigued
01:28:18
because I know you've just you've started a production company what was the thinking behind that and how's that going
01:28:24
it's a new challenge it's very exciting and uh you know I think over the last
01:28:30
couple of years I've seen how some people I've been involved in projects and I don't I haven't exactly been run very
01:28:37
well and I think well I I you know I've now got the experience to know I can do that job
01:28:45
I I know I'm bringing my A-game but it's the people above me aren't bringing their a game it's gonna make it tough so
01:28:53
I'd like to bring Excellence to everything that I do that's what I think I do is I bring Excellence to everything
01:28:59
I do so I want to put some Excellence out there and what do you want to make what kind
01:29:05
of things documentaries dramas give myself some good roles um why not you know but ask questions of
01:29:14
of the audience work in a different way create work that isn't being written yet why wait for somebody else to write it
01:29:21
create it yourself yeah I'm 27 years old you look about 35. thank you and you say
01:29:28
to yourself well why isn't that role come along yet create it yourself
01:29:34
and that's one thing the younger generation are doing brilliantly starting their production companies
01:29:39
you know valuing themselves and I think that's um something I really want to do
01:29:45
but myself at the top be the boss man like you it comes with its costs but that's a
01:29:51
conversation for another time um the question that was left for you
01:29:58
what is a personal Legacy you want to leave
01:30:03
for yourself slash children foreign
01:30:11
I would say crack open the universe you know inspire
01:30:18
those around me an inspirational figure
01:30:24
in in what you do be an example in what you do and
01:30:31
let me I'll give you an example of that but I've just been casting this film
01:30:37
and as a director and um two leading roles two black two
01:30:44
two black people all these young black kids came in the door young black actors
01:30:53
and the first thing they said oh my God man I used to watch you when I was at school thank you so much for I had no
01:31:00
I'm like I was feeling I'd probably be feeling really depressed that morning but even without me knowing just being
01:31:07
there just by doing what I did I inspired that kid to think about even becoming an actor
01:31:15
just even think about it so I would say to you know that inspire
01:31:22
people by your action crack up in the universe because we're
01:31:28
still living in an age where we're the first I was the first black actor my fellow this was the first black person that was
01:31:34
still living in that age so I think there's a whole
01:31:39
Legacy to leave a whole Legacy to open up be an example
01:31:46
not just your generation but to Future Generations well David I have to say you're
01:31:52
certainly that you're certainly an example you're certainly that inspiration and that role models to so many people so if that is your objective
01:31:59
then I think you've already achieved it in a tremendous way um no doubt you've got so much more to
01:32:04
do and I have a sneaking suspicion based on your tenacity and your
01:32:09
um which has been present since you were a very young man that you'll find a way to to crack open the universe in any way
01:32:16
that you desire I have absolutely no doubt about that in fact thank you I hope to do that that's my plan thank you
01:32:21
for inspiring me as well and I don't act but watching um a black man rise so high
01:32:27
and Achieve so much is is incredibly inspiring for me and my role models um
01:32:32
are varied across Industries and you're certainly one of them so but you know what I I'm right back at you because you
01:32:38
inspired you likewise in yourself inspire people and you know I was listening to say listen
01:32:44
to your Chris Camara piece which was beautiful by the way no thank you and and and hearing how he's inspired people
01:32:53
in a lot of the people who go through that if they don't think it they can't even imagine the world but you even just
01:32:59
by being yourself you inspire people so let's right back at you
01:33:05
well thank you there it means it means a ton coming from you and I'm sure this conversation we're going to continue off there in various forms so thank you
01:33:12
thank you huge inspiration foreign
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