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I was often in meetings [music] as the
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only woman. My eyes were open to the
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challenges quite early on. You've got to
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be asking deeper, better questions and
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engage with people. Walk the floors,
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find out what's really going on. One of
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the most valuable is that curiosity. How
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do you get people to talk to you? How do
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you get to the truth of the matter?
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Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom, the
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podcast that takes you behind closed
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doors to unpack the pivotal decisions
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that shaped organizations for better or
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worse.
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I'm Erica Iliesa Norris and each week I
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sit down with a senior leader who stood
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at the edge of a defining moment, a
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crisis, a turning point, a challenge
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where the stakes were high and the
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outcome uncertain.
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These are the conversations you won't
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find in annual reports. Honest,
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strategic, and grounded in lived
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experience.
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Because governance isn't about theory,
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it's about pressure, people, and making
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the call.
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My guest today is Emma Parry,
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a financial services senior executive
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turned board adviser whose career spans
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continents, industries, and some of the
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most complex governance challenges in
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banking and fintech.
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One thing that people probably don't
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know about her is that she began her
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career working for an Australian
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government in a department focused on
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intelligence and national security.
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A role that taught her early on about
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discretion, risk, and the importance of
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making the right call under pressure. At
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HSBC, she established and chaired the
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global product governance and best
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execution committees, influencing
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strategy across 39 countries, and
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working directly with regulators such as
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the UK's Financial Conduct Authority.
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Today, she is chair and independent
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non-exec director of Kyriba UK, founder
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of Novafin Consulting, and an expert
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witness in the UK High Court. She's
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advised on global anti-fraud and risk
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culture initiatives, written extensively
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on conduct and governance, and guided
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organizations on how to build fairer,
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more accountable outcomes for clients
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and stakeholders. Welcome to Grit in the
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Boardroom, Emma. Let's get into it.
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Thank you. It's great to be here.
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So, to start with, Emma, you've had a
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truly global career and you now sit on
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boards. Was there a particular moment
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that made you realize just how few women
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still make it into these spaces?
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>> Mhm. It's a really interesting question.
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So, much of my sort of last part of my
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career,
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notwithstanding the beginning in the
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Australian government, I was working in
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the investment bank and I was often in
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meetings as the only woman. So, in a
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way, my eyes were open to the challenges
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quite early on. More recently, I've been
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obviously I set up my own my own company
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and I continue to watch what's happening
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in the industry,
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um looking at the surveys that take
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place around gender balance, pay gaps,
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and whilst there is some improvements,
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there are still there's still a long way
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to go in terms of achieving parity,
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equity, um and creating diversity at the
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most senior levels of firms, but also
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throughout the organization so that
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there's actually a succession plan of
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women and diversity moving up through
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the ranks as well.
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And is that something that you say
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you've kind of noticed, but was that
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through the whole of your career when
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you were former early in your career?
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Did you see that that was the path that
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you were treading or is it only when you
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kind of got to the kind of boardroom and
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then you've looked back and then
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thought, "Actually, there's there's not
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that many women around."
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Yeah. Um it's become more apparent as
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I've been getting into the non-exec
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space. And to give you an example of how
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how I found my place in in on the board
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is
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actually I was approached by somebody
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who was already on a board and they
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recognized they had a diversity problem.
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There were no women
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not at the board level
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nor at the senior management level.
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And so,
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they were
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I'm not going to say desperate, but kind
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of desperate to get more
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diversity, diversity of thought,
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diversity of representation at the board
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level. And that's actually how I became
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um a non-exec is
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uh there's a longer story, but that's
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the the short answer to your question is
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it become more apparent as I've become
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more senior, I suppose, yes. So, how did
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you feel when you were approached to
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take on that role because you say that
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you felt to a certain extent that they
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wanted a woman on in that particular
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position. I think you and I would
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probably both agree that it's not great
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to be the token person and be be the
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person that's just put on put on that
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board just because you're a particular
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gender or just because you have a
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certain ethnicity or background or
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whatever that might be. How did you
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feel?
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>> And this is the challenge, right?
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Because you have that there is a
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in some quarters a sense of box ticking.
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We need to have a woman, we need to
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have, you know, African Caribbean,
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whatever the the box that needs to be
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ticked.
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I [snorts] did recognize there could be
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a challenge around that. So, I met with
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the CEO and had a discussion about the
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company, where they were at, and also to
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understand what gaps they had in terms
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of the capabilities at a senior level
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and [snorts] at the board. And it's
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quite interesting because it's a quite
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it's a very small board, so it's myself
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and another NED and then some of the
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C-suite.
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And
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they have a really good
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level of capability and expertise in
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payments, which is what the firm is
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about,
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>> [snorts]
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>> and around compliance as it relates to
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financial crime, AML, and so on and so
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forth.
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But what I bring and what I was really
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keen to explore further was my product
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governance background, my experience in
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dealing with clients. And so, bringing
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that additional
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dimension to the board, which wasn't
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there. So, whilst you could
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say was it box ticking? Well,
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potentially because they recognized a
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problem, but I bring quite a lot of
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additional value and expertise that they
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didn't have. So, I can very much justify
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and say I'm there for a reason and I've
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earned my place. Mhm. Absolutely. And
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how did they make you feel when you
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joined? Oh, I was it thrilled. Thrilled
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beyond thrilled because I had wanted to
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uh expand my career into the non-exec
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space for for years and I had attempted
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through various different channels to do
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that. So, for example, I had signed up
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to
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a quite a couple of what's now almost a
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cottage industry of firms and
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organizations that are set up to help
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non-execs get on executive positions.
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And they advertise that they've got job
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boards. Some of them are better than
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others, so some will critique your CV.
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And so, I had joined a couple of those
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through the years with no success, I
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hasten to add, although I now have a
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much better board CV. And it was just
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somewhat ironic that it was through my
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network, being tapped on the shoulder,
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and that's how I was approached about
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the board role. So, it's quite an
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interesting way in the end. For someone
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that's aiming for their first non-exec
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director role, what do you think they
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need to understand about board
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appointments that's not in the job
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description? You touched on it slightly
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there about some of the kind of skills
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that you bring, but also I think it's
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understanding the value that you bring
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to be able to step into that new role
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even when you may be slightly fearful
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this is the first time you've done it.
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So,
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how does that work?
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>> Yeah, it's it's a really great question
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because
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it's not just about your expertise
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anymore. In fact, when you craft your
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board CV, it's all about your committee
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experience, how you've gained consensus
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over a particularly difficult topic, or
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how you've led or helped to lead the the
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company through, say, an IPO or FCA
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approval. These are big strategic
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initiatives and they're not people
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aren't looking for your project
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management experience. They're looking
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at how you work with people, we touched
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on that a bit earlier, how you work with
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people, how you size people up, the
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sorts of challenges you might get in the
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boardroom, and how you can navigate
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those. So, people are looking for a
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different skill set. I mean, obviously
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you have to have the expertise behind
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you, but it's how you draw that
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information out and
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how you create your value proposition,
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how you sell yourself as a board member,
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not just a project manager or CEO or
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head of client service or whatever it
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might be. It's a very different lens
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that you need to craft. What sorts of
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skills do you think
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you can kind of pull out of an executive
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career to kind of adapt to that non-exec
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director role? Communication skills,
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absolutely front and center. The
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navigation through challenges and issues
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and how you can adapt your management
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style and your communication style to
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get through what can be quite tricky
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obstacles. So, there's there's those
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types of EQ skills. And then there's
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some sort of fundamentals around risk,
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finance, regulation. You've got to be
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able to understand broadly the types of
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challenges that your particular company
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is going to face. Some of them are going
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are going to be the same, but some of
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them are going to be quite specific. So,
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for example, we've all got legal
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challenges, we've all got financial
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challenges. But if you're a payments
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company, for example, obviously
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you've got to understand what the
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payments regulations are and understand
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so you can ask the right questions in
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the board meeting. So,
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it's [snorts] a a combination of things.
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And you've had a very interesting
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career,
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um particularly around um
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kind of the anti-corruption type work.
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And you must have worked with some
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organizations that have been through
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some quite challenging times. You talk
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about kind of communication skills. How
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How do you think that that experience
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you were able to kind of bring in with
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regards to communication skills, maybe
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completely different sector, completely
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different experience, but it shaped you
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as a person. How How has it done that?
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Because that might give kind of an
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example to people listening
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um about how they might adapt their own
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executive skills to something
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non-executive related.
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>> Yeah. So, I've got a few examples. One I
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think is particularly
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well, I'm quite proud of actually is,
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you know, being appointed
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or instructed as a an expert witness on
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a court case in the High Court. And that
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is all about communication. So, it's
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about in the first instance
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understanding the evidence that was
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presented. This particular case was a
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potential breach of regulations, so
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understanding what the regulations were.
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Doing a compare and contrast, and then
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writing the report that was then tabled
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in in the courtroom. And so that's very
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much honing the communications piece,
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but with a very precise
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application because in a court of law
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you've got to be precise, you've got to
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be accurate, you've got to be correct.
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And so,
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you know, this is not just writing like
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a novel.
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>> [laughter]
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>> You've actually got to write something
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that's going to stand up in court. So,
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that would be one example I'd give of
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where I've
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applied my communication skills. And
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then it's also I had to interview people
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as well. So, it's not just writing, but
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interviewing people who had been
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involved in the case
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to get their side of the story, to
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understand where they were coming from,
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understand
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um their understanding of the
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regulations as well. So, almost like an
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in
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an investigator, if you will. Yeah.
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>> Which requires you to have a certain
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level of objectivity and be able to take
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into account other people's perspectives
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that may not be yours.
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>> Precisely. Yes, exactly. Being able to
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stay attuned
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to the data and being objective is
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critical. And another thing that we know
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is important in the boardroom is like
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sometimes you can have a very heated
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discussion about a topic
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and you've got to gain consensus. How do
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you keep your calm? How do you keep your
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head in that?
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Stay with the data, stay with the facts,
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stay with the
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understand [snorts] where people's
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objections may be, but ultimately stick
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with the facts. What's the objective?
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Where do we need to get to? And and be a
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bit cool-headed about it to get that
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consensus in the end. And just a
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question from me, how did you manage to
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become an expert witness on a high court
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case? It sounds amazing.
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>> [laughter]
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>> I get that question a lot actually. Um
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so, I was recommended by a colleague.
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She is a lawyer and she was initially
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approached to be the expert witness, but
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she couldn't because she had a conflict
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of interest on the case. So, she
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recommended me to the barrister.
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I was then interviewed by the barrister
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and got the the the role. So, again,
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this is about the network.
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And we speak about that in terms of
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non-exec roles, board appointments. It's
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the often through the network.
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But a lot of my opportunities through
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work have been through my network, be it
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non-exec roles or
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you know, expert witness. Mm. And how
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have you built that network over time?
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Ah, [sighs]
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lots of ways. I go to a lot of
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conferences, I do lots of speaking
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events, so I network
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in person.
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I've got to admit I'm a bit of a fanatic
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on LinkedIn, which most some people will
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say, "Oh my goodness, why? Why are you
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mentioning LinkedIn?" Because I've found
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it really useful. I'm a naturally I'm
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going to say a naturally engaging
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person. I do find that, you know, I
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make connections quite easily. In fact,
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I was I think I talked the ear off the
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poor taxi driver on the way over here.
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I've just He got me talking about
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Australia, which is obviously where I've
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lived for a while, and I was giving him
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tips on traveling and don't go Christmas
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time cuz it's really expensive.
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>> [snorts]
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>> So, I just I'm a bit bubbly, I suppose.
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It's great though to be able to talk to
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people so openly and be your authentic
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self. I think that that can really help.
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I've definitely seen in my career
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directors that are trying to be someone
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or trying to be something because that's
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kind of what they feel the box needs,
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that type of person. And Yes. And they
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can often find it quite a stulting type
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of experience when they go into a
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networking event or even talking to
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people in the business and they just
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become somebody that's very different
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and they don't like it because they're
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oh hang on, I've stepped outside my own
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box here. But it sounds like that you
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don't have that problem. No. No, I
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don't.
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No, I don't think I've ever really had
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that problem. Um you know, as we were
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discussing earlier, I moved around a lot
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when I was growing up and it gave me
00:16:01
a lot of confidence and a lot of
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exposure to different cultures,
00:16:05
different ways of working and and, you
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know, I think that's rubbed off on me as
00:16:10
well as an adult. I'm much more
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confident to
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just go into a room and introduce
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myself, which I know is is hard for a
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lot of people. But I guess what's the
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worst that can happen? Well, yes,
00:16:21
exactly. What is the worst? They can
00:16:23
just turn away from you. It's unlikely.
00:16:26
Absolutely. And if you're not the person
00:16:28
that is
00:16:29
if you're the person that's being that
00:16:31
outgoing person, then the other person
00:16:33
probably instantly puts you in a box of
00:16:35
oh, they're really chatty, that's great.
00:16:36
Let's go and chat to them.
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>> Yes. And and then the pressure gets
00:16:40
taken off because then somebody else
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steps in. Yeah. Yeah. But do you find
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that? I mean, you seem very bubbly as
00:16:46
well, so
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Yes.
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>> [laughter]
00:16:50
>> I get spoken to all sorts of different
00:16:52
times and events and just even in the
00:16:54
supermarket people saying, "Should I buy
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this one or this one?" And I just think
00:16:58
I don't know why I have
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something to add to this discussion, but
00:17:02
you know,
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great. Some people gravitate to Yeah. I
00:17:07
think it's being open in terms of body
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language, in terms of approachability.
00:17:11
Yes. And just being a friendly face and
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smiling. I think sometimes people forget
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to do that. That's true. That's true.
00:17:18
So, you've led on culture, conduct, and
00:17:23
risk across global financial
00:17:25
institutions. Why do you think so many
00:17:28
board appointments still come through
00:17:30
the kind of closed legacy networks?
00:17:34
There has definitely been over the years
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the boys club and
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people
00:17:41
gravitating to people that they've
00:17:42
worked with. They're a known quantity.
00:17:45
They've worked with them, they for them
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it's a safe bet.
00:17:49
The challenge with that, and I'm I've
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seen it happen, is you get companies
00:17:54
with a senior management team that have
00:17:57
only ever worked together, majority
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male,
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and not necessarily therefore being
00:18:05
as cognitively diverse as they
00:18:08
potentially could be. So,
00:18:11
there is a need to break the boys club.
00:18:15
I mean, look, it can be a girls club as
00:18:16
well, I don't get me wrong. I have to be
00:18:18
a bit careful because I was tapped on
00:18:20
the tapped on the shoulder for my board
00:18:22
role because I was a known quantity. So,
00:18:25
it does work. I think the challenge for
00:18:28
boards particularly is
00:18:31
for the number of candidates that you
00:18:33
need to fill your NED roles, how are you
00:18:36
filling them? What's the process? And
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okay, so you've got maybe a in a large
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board you probably have a couple of
00:18:45
people who've worked together before or
00:18:47
know of somebody who might be
00:18:49
appropriate. Again, this is about
00:18:51
visibility and building your brand.
00:18:54
Where I'm going with this is it's you've
00:18:56
got to have an element of determined
00:18:59
process to create the diversity that
00:19:02
should be there. We talk about good
00:19:04
governance. It should be about having a
00:19:08
the cognitive diversity at the board
00:19:10
level. So, with uh the kind of cognitive
00:19:13
diversity, how do you think boards can
00:19:15
bring that in if they don't have it
00:19:18
already? Um because it can obviously be
00:19:20
quite challenging. You said that you
00:19:22
kind of were brought in as well. No
00:19:24
doubt those people knew each other
00:19:26
before on the board and you were
00:19:28
very different.
00:19:29
>> Yes. Um and you said that they welcomed
00:19:32
you, which is fantastic. But how do you
00:19:33
think that boards can help with that
00:19:36
sort of process? What do you think the
00:19:38
board that you were part of, what
00:19:40
thought processes did they go through to
00:19:41
get to the stage of thinking, you know,
00:19:43
actually we would like Emma on this on
00:19:46
this and we want to reach out to her?
00:19:47
Yeah. So, let me answer the broad
00:19:49
question first and then I'll answer the
00:19:51
specifics. So, things that boards should
00:19:54
be doing. So, there are now specialist
00:19:57
NED headhunters.
00:19:59
Um they are often on LinkedIn.
00:20:04
If you are interested in NED role, get
00:20:06
on LinkedIn, create a profile, start
00:20:09
reaching out. That's the first thing.
00:20:12
So, it's not just the board, it's the
00:20:14
people who want to be on the board. It's
00:20:15
a two-way street, right? How are they
00:20:17
going to find you if you're not visible?
00:20:20
So, [snorts] there's the the
00:20:21
headhunters. There's also quite a lot of
00:20:24
job boards that are actually free to
00:20:27
access. I'm going to mention LinkedIn
00:20:29
again, but also the government, the UK
00:20:32
government and cabinet office is also
00:20:35
actively
00:20:36
promoting its open vacancies and their
00:20:40
process is very much around ensuring
00:20:44
diversity. I know because I've applied
00:20:47
for unsuccessfully.
00:20:49
I don't know why. But their process
00:20:51
includes stripping away from your CV
00:20:55
anything that could indicate your
00:20:57
gender, your age, or anything that could
00:21:01
be almost discriminated against. And
00:21:04
then they also ask behavioral questions
00:21:06
as well. So, they And this is at the
00:21:09
start of the process. So, there are ways
00:21:11
that I'm seeing that boards can use to
00:21:14
get that diversity. So,
00:21:17
it's a bit lazy if all they're doing is
00:21:19
tapping someone on the shoulder.
00:21:21
Which brings me to my experience.
00:21:23
[laughter]
00:21:23
>> [gasps]
00:21:24
>> So, the company in question had a lot of
00:21:27
people who knew each other before the
00:21:29
company was set up.
00:21:32
Because they are open to the diversity
00:21:35
question, not everybody is,
00:21:38
>> [snorts]
00:21:38
>> they recognized they needed
00:21:41
diversity. Let's call it that. I was
00:21:43
visible and
00:21:46
I had expressed an interest in becoming
00:21:49
a NED. And so, it's a two-way thing. Oh,
00:21:52
Emma, we know Emma wants to be on a
00:21:54
board. She's already stated that. We
00:21:56
know what she can do because she's
00:21:59
visible and she tells us and she
00:22:01
promotes what she's been doing. So,
00:22:03
two-way street.
00:22:05
Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that
00:22:08
um
00:22:09
when you secured your first NED role, do
00:22:12
you think it becomes easier to show your
00:22:16
value? Because so many people have said
00:22:17
to me, until you get the first one, then
00:22:20
you can't do it. It's like the first
00:22:21
anything, whatever you want to train to
00:22:23
be, it's getting that first job that
00:22:25
shows that you can demonstrate your
00:22:27
skills. Until you get that break, it's
00:22:29
challenging.
00:22:30
>> I'm kind of laughing, smiling because
00:22:32
it's the catch-22.
00:22:33
>> [laughter]
00:22:34
>> Virtually every NED position at being
00:22:37
advertised, they say you have to have
00:22:40
previous NED experience. It's a
00:22:42
catch-22. How do you get that
00:22:43
experience? And so,
00:22:45
so ironically, yes, I'm now
00:22:49
getting interviewed for roles, other NED
00:22:52
roles, because I've already got one. So,
00:22:54
your point is very well made. It is
00:22:57
difficult and the
00:22:58
the the suggestion I have for people is
00:23:00
if they're in a current executive role
00:23:04
and they have capacity to do a trustee
00:23:08
role or some other type of board role,
00:23:12
do it and get that experience early on
00:23:15
because it makes it a lot easier later
00:23:19
if you are wanting to transition to a
00:23:21
portfolio career. If you've got the
00:23:22
experience, you're going to be able to
00:23:24
get more of those types of roles because
00:23:27
you've demonstrated your capability. Mm,
00:23:29
absolutely. And I found in my own
00:23:31
career, if you
00:23:33
can demonstrate the skill set that's
00:23:36
required for that particular role in a
00:23:37
different way, just as you say, then
00:23:39
that's really helpful. Even if it's
00:23:42
something that's completely different,
00:23:43
even if it's your local sports club or
00:23:46
whatever else it might be that you can
00:23:48
Yes.
00:23:48
>> volunteer to do something.
00:23:51
Um and it just gives you that edge of
00:23:53
being able to demonstrate what you're
00:23:54
saying you can do.
00:23:55
>> Exactly.
00:23:56
>> People want to be able to see that you
00:23:57
can actually do it before they give you
00:23:59
that opportunity.
00:23:59
>> Yeah. So, one of the um experiences that
00:24:02
I've put on my board CV are the
00:24:05
committees that I chaired at HSBC
00:24:08
because uh I set them up and then I led
00:24:11
them and that's great experience and
00:24:13
shows that you are, you know, board
00:24:16
ready.
00:24:17
Although, you know, albeit that your
00:24:19
experience was in um
00:24:21
uh you know, a salaried role as opposed
00:24:24
to a
00:24:25
non-exec, but um yeah, absolutely.
00:24:27
There's so much that we do as we go
00:24:29
through our careers um
00:24:32
and it's it it's a shame if we don't
00:24:34
repurpose and rebrand ourselves drawing
00:24:38
on that knowledge and experience that
00:24:40
we've we can bring to the table. Mm,
00:24:42
absolutely. And I think you're right.
00:24:44
I've heard it a few times now from
00:24:46
people in all different kind of
00:24:48
leadership roles of that rebranding, of
00:24:50
needing to on a regular basis, whether
00:24:53
that's six-monthly, annually, look at
00:24:55
what you're giving to the organization
00:24:58
and match that up with what you also
00:25:00
want to get out of it, whether you're in
00:25:01
a salaried role, whether you're in a
00:25:03
non-exec director role, and think, am I
00:25:05
adding the value that I should be
00:25:07
adding? Because that allows you to, you
00:25:10
know, throw away any imposter syndrome
00:25:11
you might possibly have, but also, if
00:25:13
push comes to shove and, you know,
00:25:15
there's an opportunity for you to move
00:25:17
somewhere else, then you can assess it
00:25:19
with much clearer head. Yeah. I think
00:25:21
that's so important now more than ever
00:25:24
because
00:25:25
the days of just being in one role for
00:25:28
30 or 40 or 50 years, depending on
00:25:31
>> [laughter and gasps]
00:25:31
>> your longevity, um
00:25:33
is is very rare. You know, you have to
00:25:37
And it's something that I've been
00:25:38
continually doing, in part because I'm
00:25:40
quite ambitious and
00:25:42
I like a new challenge, right? So, every
00:25:44
few years I've been like, right, what's
00:25:46
next? Cuz I've done that. Um but you
00:25:49
should be looking at what you're doing,
00:25:51
your CV, you know, your aspirations, and
00:25:54
also what the job market is doing. So,
00:25:57
I'm reading so much about AI and jobs
00:26:00
disappearing. But on the other hand,
00:26:02
there are other jobs appearing as well.
00:26:04
So, you've got to keep an eye out on
00:26:07
what the trends, the challenges, some of
00:26:09
the issues that we're seeing and think
00:26:11
about what How can I
00:26:15
reinvent myself if I had to, if I was
00:26:18
made redundant, or because I want to,
00:26:21
how do I reinvent myself? What skill
00:26:22
sets do I have that I can bring to the
00:26:24
table in a new role, in a new capacity,
00:26:27
in a portfolio career? Mm.
00:26:30
You seem very much like a self-driven
00:26:33
individual. What do you think has made
00:26:35
you like that?
00:26:36
>> [laughter]
00:26:37
>> That's a really good question. Um I
00:26:40
think in part it's it's the confidence
00:26:42
piece, but it's also I'm very much a
00:26:45
thinker. Ask me at 3:00 in the morning
00:26:48
when I'm awake, but I'm I'm just
00:26:51
I'm a curious person. I'm curious about
00:26:53
the world, how things are evolving. You
00:26:56
know, I'm one of these people, I don't
00:26:57
think I'll ever really retire because I
00:27:00
I like
00:27:01
having something to think about, you
00:27:03
know, puzzles to to to kind of solve.
00:27:06
That's just the way I've been made, I'm
00:27:08
afraid.
00:27:09
>> [laughter]
00:27:10
>> My DNA is curious. That's amazing
00:27:13
though. I think that if you can retain
00:27:16
that throughout, you know, your life on
00:27:19
a board, that brings such an amazing
00:27:22
dynamic because if you always have that
00:27:24
curious mind, then you're not going to
00:27:25
go in with that fixed mindset of this is
00:27:28
the way that it's always been, this is
00:27:29
the way it should be, this is the way
00:27:30
I've seen it done before, this is
00:27:31
definitely the answer. You're going to
00:27:33
go in and say, this could be the same
00:27:35
answer, but actually could be something
00:27:36
different.
00:27:37
>> Yeah. I see it in a lot of the the
00:27:41
fascination people have with dashboards.
00:27:45
So, I've seen it happen actually where
00:27:48
you've got an a dashboard that's all
00:27:50
green, everything's fine, and then the
00:27:52
next month there's some catastrophic
00:27:55
issue that comes out of the woodwork and
00:27:58
people are caught unawares. And so,
00:28:00
you've got to be asking deeper, better
00:28:02
questions and engage with people. Walk
00:28:05
the floors, find out what's really going
00:28:07
on. You've got to be curious and I think
00:28:09
that's one of the the the traits of a
00:28:12
board member that I think is
00:28:14
probably, from my perspective, one of
00:28:16
the most valuable is that curiosity. How
00:28:19
do you get people to talk to you? How do
00:28:21
you get to the truth of the matter? And
00:28:24
if you're all a bit shy and don't like
00:28:26
to network, then you you you need to
00:28:28
work on that because
00:28:30
you've got to be around the table
00:28:32
bringing that,
00:28:33
you know, bringing that information out
00:28:35
of people, drawing it out,
00:28:38
getting people to talk. Yeah, and
00:28:41
getting people to open up is really
00:28:42
important, particularly in a non-exec
00:28:44
director role, particularly if, as you
00:28:45
say, you're walking the floor, you're
00:28:46
you're finding out things from people.
00:28:49
It can be quite daunting, right? For
00:28:51
them to speak to somebody that in their
00:28:53
eyes is incredibly senior, particularly
00:28:56
if they are in a junior role
00:28:58
or a manual job, and they have someone
00:29:01
coming up and they instantly have that
00:29:03
imposter syndrome of someone's going to
00:29:04
come and criticize what I'm doing.
00:29:06
Actually, you're just asking questions,
00:29:07
but how do you get people to warm up to
00:29:10
you because you seem like the sort of
00:29:11
person that finds that very easy.
00:29:13
I'm very down to earth and so
00:29:17
I
00:29:18
often ask open with a question, not
00:29:20
like, oh, you know, what's the weather
00:29:22
doing or where was your last holiday,
00:29:24
but things like, um tell me a little bit
00:29:27
about your day. So, you ask an open
00:29:30
question rather than a yes/no is always
00:29:32
a good place to start. Get them talking
00:29:35
and then see what they offer up and from
00:29:37
there build on the insights that they're
00:29:41
starting to give you and
00:29:43
I'm not going to say interrogate, but
00:29:45
drilling into some of what they're
00:29:47
telling you, you know, say for example,
00:29:49
you're on the
00:29:51
the shop floor and it's a manufacturing,
00:29:53
you know, and you want to understand
00:29:55
more about health and safety, you could
00:29:57
quite justifiably ask, you
00:30:00
tell me about your day, how does it
00:30:01
start, what, you know, get them talking.
00:30:04
And then, if they happen to start
00:30:07
talking about health and safety or, you
00:30:09
know, perhaps last week there was an
00:30:10
accident or an incident,
00:30:12
ask them about it. What was their
00:30:14
experience of that? How did they become
00:30:17
aware of it, you know, what was done on
00:30:19
the back of it? So, you can start
00:30:21
asking those types of questions. Again,
00:30:24
open-ended, get them talking and be
00:30:27
quiet, get them to talk. Mhm.
00:30:30
And in all your roles, and particularly
00:30:32
as a non-exec director, ethics is really
00:30:35
important, and having strong values.
00:30:39
Yes. Do you feel you've ever had your
00:30:41
values or ethics tested in any kind of
00:30:43
environment so far in your career?
00:30:46
No, not not directly and personally.
00:30:50
What I would say though is I've
00:30:53
become aware of or have met or worked
00:30:56
with people who have had their ethics
00:31:00
challenged, and there are quite a number
00:31:03
of cases that people will be aware of
00:31:05
where
00:31:07
unethical behavior, in fact, misconduct
00:31:09
of the
00:31:10
most criminal level, happened at the
00:31:13
board level.
00:31:14
So, I know one of your other
00:31:16
interviewees is Pav Gill, the Wirecard
00:31:19
whistleblower.
00:31:21
That's a prime example of where the
00:31:23
board
00:31:24
ran rogue, completely. And
00:31:27
it's kind of interesting because you
00:31:29
hear a lot from regulators
00:31:32
and industry commentators about tone
00:31:35
from the top. You know, the board should
00:31:37
set the tone and then it should trickle
00:31:40
down. And what happens if it the tone is
00:31:43
toxic? Then, you know, obviously it's
00:31:46
not going to work. So, you've got to
00:31:49
instill, and I think this is where the
00:31:51
FCA here in the UK is doing a better job
00:31:54
than some others of the regulators, is
00:31:57
making it absolutely crystal clear that
00:32:01
con- conduct and ethical behavior is
00:32:03
everybody's responsibility. Doesn't It's
00:32:05
not just at the board level, but it's
00:32:07
all through the the layers of the
00:32:10
organization as well.
00:32:12
And what's one habit or step that our
00:32:15
listeners can take this week to move
00:32:17
closer to the boardroom?
00:32:20
Love that question.
00:32:22
And
00:32:22
>> [laughter]
00:32:22
>> you probably won't be surprised to say,
00:32:25
one of the things that I found
00:32:26
particularly helpful, and your listeners
00:32:28
may as well, is again, if you go on to
00:32:31
LinkedIn, there are a lot of senior
00:32:33
people, CEOs and board level
00:32:37
advisors, who post regularly about their
00:32:41
experiences, about strategy, about
00:32:44
challenges that they're overcoming, and
00:32:47
you can learn so much, and it's free.
00:32:50
And the bonus tip here is, if you really
00:32:52
want to start building your visibility,
00:32:55
is you can actually comment on those
00:32:58
posts as well. And I'm don't not just
00:33:01
some, you know, platitude, but if
00:33:04
they've raised a strategic question or
00:33:07
challenge, and you have an idea about it
00:33:10
or want to share a viewpoint,
00:33:14
do so. Don't be scared to share your
00:33:17
opinion, build your confidence in
00:33:19
finding your voice.
00:33:22
Yeah, that sounds great, and it does
00:33:23
sound like
00:33:25
LinkedIn is particularly helpful for
00:33:28
building those connections across
00:33:29
divides that may you may not have access
00:33:31
to those type of people already within
00:33:33
your network. Yeah, I mean, it's very
00:33:36
much an equal platform. I do go on about
00:33:38
it, I post a lot, I do a lot of
00:33:40
networking through it, and it's helped
00:33:43
me build my career since leaving the the
00:33:46
banking world and building a portfolio
00:33:48
career. Virtually all of my work and
00:33:52
initiatives have come through my network
00:33:55
that I've built through there, as well
00:33:57
as obviously meeting people in person
00:33:59
and, you know, socializing, but um
00:34:02
you know, I've found it particularly
00:34:03
helpful. Mhm. And my final question,
00:34:06
what do you think is the most underrated
00:34:08
skill for aspiring non-exec directors to
00:34:10
develop?
00:34:13
This, I think, is going to be
00:34:15
understanding corporate governance,
00:34:17
because I would say most people during
00:34:20
their salaried career wouldn't
00:34:23
necessarily have exposure to what a
00:34:26
corporate
00:34:28
governance person does. They might
00:34:30
think, oh, they just take the minutes,
00:34:32
but there's so much more to that, and it
00:34:34
becomes critical
00:34:36
when you're in a NED role. So, that
00:34:38
would be my my suggestion. Great,
00:34:41
fantastic. That's great. Thank you very
00:34:43
much for joining me on Grit in the
00:34:45
Boardroom, and for sharing such candid
00:34:48
look at what really goes on. It's been
00:34:49
my pleasure. Thank you for having me
00:34:51
here.
00:34:53
Reflecting on the conversation with
00:34:55
Emma, I think there are three key points
00:34:59
that I would like to cover.
00:35:01
One is that networking is absolutely
00:35:04
key. It's so important to be able to
00:35:07
diversify your network and grow it. She
00:35:10
made some very good suggestions about
00:35:12
LinkedIn, and I think that's something
00:35:13
that we can all take away
00:35:15
>> [music]
00:35:15
>> um and use. I think that it's also
00:35:17
important to bring your genuine self to
00:35:21
any non-exec director role, but also to
00:35:23
networking. I think that if people get
00:35:26
to know the real you, then you won't
00:35:28
have anything to worry about when you do
00:35:30
step into that boardroom for the first
00:35:31
time.
00:35:32
>> [music]
00:35:32
>> Um and I also think that
00:35:34
um it's really important to develop the
00:35:37
skill set that you will need for that
00:35:38
first non-exec director role ahead of
00:35:40
time. You can do that in an executive
00:35:42
career through, as Emma suggested,
00:35:45
chairing a committee, um or other skills
00:35:48
that may be part of voluntary work that
00:35:50
you might do. And that will allow you to
00:35:52
demonstrate in practice what that board
00:35:54
is expecting you to deliver in that
00:35:56
room.
00:35:59
>> [music]
