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You cannot abdecate decision-making
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and that emotion you have with the
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organization to technology or AI. When
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you talk about emotional intelligence,
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it's not about the sort of touchy-feely.
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No, it's about having a finger on the
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pulse of your organization. Joining a
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board can be a daunting thing,
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especially if it's your first rodeo,
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your first board.
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Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm
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Erica Iliesan Norris. Today, I'm joined
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by Dr. Neka Abolekwe OBE. Neka, welcome
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to Grit in the Boardroom. Thank you. A
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pleasure to be here. Lovely to be here
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with you as well today. Um let's get
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into it. Thank you. If you could if you
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could quietly observe any boardroom,
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which board would you choose to step
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into or be a fly on the wall of and why?
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Hm, that's an interesting question.
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Um I serve on a variety of boards, you
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know, so governing and non-governing and
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advisory boards and um they all bring
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very different things to the table.
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If I was on a hop if I was to say, I
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would say possibly a listed company
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board.
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And because of the layers of governance
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and the guardrails that we find in
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listed company boards.
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Um
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it's always been quite an interesting
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one for me. Um I joined a listed company
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board um
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4 years ago
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and the first year was pretty much
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getting my head around, you know, the
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governance and things and settling into
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it. You know, you usually have times
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where you settle into things.
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And um it's been incredibly insightful,
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really insightful. Just it's a lens into
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a different world, very different from
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an exact role, you know. And I found
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that the other boards I've been on are
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to a varying degree. But, you know, so
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if I would say the listed board was at
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one end of the spectrum and then the
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other sort of vary.
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But, it is it's been exposure into um
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the capital markets, You know, it's been
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exposure into a very different and would
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I say, um,
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regulated way of governance. What do you
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think you've taken from your other
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boards into that FTSE,
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um, listed environment? Oh, the other
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boards, I mean, the other boards are
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they are advisory boards, so
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international advisory boards.
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And you see, I would
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urge anyone who is looking to do a board
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career to sit on those kind of boards
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because the insights you get from those
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boards, the people you're on I mean,
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you're serving on the boards with, you
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know, these are international, so you
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have an international audience from so
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many disparate backgrounds. You know, so
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you're getting the best I mean, I'm on
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the on the the board of visitors for the
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Ashmolean
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and that is on that is the Ashmolean
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Museum, University of of Oxford.
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That gives me a rich insight, you know,
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I did my first degree in history and
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archaeology, so that is something that I
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know. That was really, really dear to
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me. So, all the objects digitizing the
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entire collections and all of that, so
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that's something different. And on the
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international advisory board for
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Cranfield School of Management and that
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is, um,
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people who have been through I mean,
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some some people are we're all Oh, are
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we not all alumni of Cranfield, but
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we've come from so many parts of the
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world from different disciplines, you
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know, on different boards at various
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stages of their careers and things like
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that. So, it's really been, you know,
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very, very useful useful, um, insights,
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useful, um, experience, useful, you
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know, understandings that I can take
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straight into my, you know, my my, um,
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boards on the private equity and the
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listed company boards, yeah. And for
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anyone that's interested in moving into
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that listed experience, sometimes it can
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be quite challenging and daunting,
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maybe, to step into those boards. How
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different have you found it to some of
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your other, like you say, international
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large boards?
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You see, what you're seeing is the tip
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of the iceberg, you see, and I mean with
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the with being on the listed board
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my board journey, I did an exec career
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right up until the management board of a
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company, Sopra Steria.
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And then when I left, I then went into
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the various institutes. So I did some
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work for the corporate governance
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institute. I did some work with the
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British Computer Society. And then I
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chaired the the
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nominations committee for ISACA, which
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is the the It's assurance governance and
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assurance and more into cyber
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into the cyber area. So I did things
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that were really within my area, but
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that was a really good way of cutting my
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teeth. And then transcended into
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different boards. And then I did my had
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my first board role with a private
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equity company,
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which was then
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small and had ambitions to grow, which
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is 5 years ago. And that has just been
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incredible. Halfway through that, I got
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my 2 years into that, I got my role with
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the listed company. So it's really been
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sort of a very gradual but a really good
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stepping stone into into that sort of
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into the getting to the listed boards
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and then sort of the exposure into
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public and private capital.
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>> [snorts]
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>> And then running organizations, you
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know. And with my perspectives on
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on governance, my perspectives are more
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around people, people-centric
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governance. And that is something that I
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hold very dear and something that was
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born from my research, my doctoral
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research into And that was My
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contribution was into the area of the
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governance of outsourcing. So that sort
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of put me into that area, which is very,
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very useful and very topical today. You
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know, we have with cyber,
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AI, you know, and boards and board
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intimacy. So it's really, really
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important here.
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And can you go into a bit more detail on
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that that people-centric governance?
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What does it mean? What What is What are
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you kind of saying there? Yes, so that
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is okay.
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>> [snorts]
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>> You see, I worked for I worked in IT
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services. So my my whole career or most
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of my career has been in IT services
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working for some of the large
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multinationals.
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And
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um I was a project manager. So, I
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started off as a project manager, which
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has been my pathway into the boardroom.
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So, it's not been finance. It hasn't
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been, you know, any of the commercial it
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was from my project management days.
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And um I was delivering projects,
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programs, you know, um global projects,
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really critical business-critical
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projects. And um and then I went into
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recovery, projects recovery and project
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assurance.
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And out of that um I started looking at
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what makes or what maketh successful
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projects.
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And then I started looking around and
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looking around in literature. And then I
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found the International Center for
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Project Management at Cranfield um
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School of Management, Cranfield
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University.
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And then um they were very interested in
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my my research topic. And then I started
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that. So, I was looking at success. And
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what happened was that throughout my
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four year I was doing this alongside my
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full-time role. So, I was looking at
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success factors within the delivery of
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technology projects, okay? So, working,
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you know, and then also effecting
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strategic change within the
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organization. So, global organizations,
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I was looking at the offshore onshore
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models, all of that. And what I found or
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what eventually came out of it was the
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thing I was looking at was governance.
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And it looked at people. So, people were
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the success factors for projects.
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Projects being the unit of analysis. So,
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you look at project governance. And then
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you look at operational governance. And
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then that also then boils into
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strategic, you know, or corporate
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governance. So, you find out that those
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companies that can align themselves or
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have that governance alignment starting
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from the person, you know, because you,
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me, and everybody else, you know, we
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come it's that collective. And how you
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then provide human oversight, you know,
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and then, you know, and how you realize
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the potential of your people within the
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organization.
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Now that it fast forward now in a board
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role, I mean, I am the the employee
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engagement director. You know, I chair
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responsible business committees, but
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that has been a golden thread throughout
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what I have done. So, it's always been
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with a focus and how you then engender
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that human capital to then begin to
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deliver and deliver your strategic
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objectives. So, it was it was quite an
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interesting study, the first that had
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been done in that area cuz I started as
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an analyst in the service in that same
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industry and then went from that into a
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project manager, senior project manager,
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program manager, um delivery director,
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and executive director, and now a
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non-executive director. So, so that has
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been my my thing. So, now I focus on um
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organizations that are um professional
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services,
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deliver service, and are
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people-oriented.
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And that has sort of kept me in good
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stead right through um to my OBE as
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well, which was given for um um for
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services to business. So, that has all
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sort of brought things um um
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um brought it all together for me. It's
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really interesting you talk about
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success factors with regards to that
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people-centric governance because
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there are so many people out there that
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wouldn't necessarily link the two. They
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would say governance is a back office
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function or it's just something about
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it's just
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how processes work and policies are
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written, but it's it's so much more than
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that, right? It's a strategic enabler.
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Absolutely a strategic enabler.
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And it's not you see okay, today we work
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in a regulated and some parts of the
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industry I work in are highly regulated.
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So, this isn't at odds with the
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regulation, but what we say is you need
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human oversight.
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And even with AI today, it's all around
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humans at the center of AI. So, AI makes
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the processes and and practices much
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more efficient, but then you have to
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have that human oversight and that human
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in the loop, even at the boardroom, you
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know, or in the boardroom. You have AI,
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yes, it can do all the summaries, it can
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do things, it can summarize meetings, it
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can it is absolute one of absolutely one
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of the things on the agenda and the
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strategic agenda, but you cannot
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abdecate decision-making
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and that emotion you have with the
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organization to technology or AI.
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You know, so it it really is that thing
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that holds people hold That's the way
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that holds things together, very much
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so. That's really interesting. There's
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definitely been some some thoughts
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around AI and AI directors and will we
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at some point have someone that sits
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There's AI that sits there and adds a an
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alternative perspective or a different
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voice.
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Um what what do you think? It is
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important. I mean, AI technological
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advancement in AI has outpaced even
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boardroom governance.
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It is hurtling. I mean, it is it is
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coming, okay?
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Is it a major threat? It depends on how
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you look at it.
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You see, technology in itself, as I
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said, is an enabler.
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Governance is the compass and people are
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the heart.
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So, when you look at it and that is
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exactly the intersection of where I sit.
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You see, so I look at the um
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from a technology lens.
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AI is here. AI is here to stay. AI is
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here to transform the way we do
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business, but in order for AI to be
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effective and of strategic value to any
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organization,
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it needs a
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complete cultural and transformational
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change within the organization.
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And that can be done together. So, you
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have to bring your people on board. The
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lifeblood that runs through any of the
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models is data.
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Data starts with you and me and all the
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the the the the processes, the
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practices. It informs all of that right
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up to the boardroom.
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The boardroom is there for holding or I
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mean I'm I'm talking about a listed
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company or even a a
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um
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a
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a private company.
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You're acting on behalf of your
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shareholders or your stakeholders. It
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could be investors, the shareholders, it
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could institutional, it could be retail,
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you know, investors. But you are there
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to then provide that
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oversight.
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Now, with AI, AI is here as I said is
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here to stay.
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Um there's been some fear around AI
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saying that AI is going too fast and it
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may I mean we we I mean it it may may be
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a bust like the dot-com bust.
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But because AI is such a galvanizing
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force, I don't believe that it will be a
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there will be a bust. I think it there
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may be a deflation or a sort of course
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correction where things settle. But I'm
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not one of those people who thinks that
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no no no there's going to be a bust and
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everything's all the investment we've
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done is all new Gucci. No, it is here to
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stay. There's a lot of capital and
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operational and cap cap cap capital
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expenditure as well as operational
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expenditure to get AI going. But it is
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and I can say that with AI it is a force
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for good. I mean it has other tentacles
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into cyber, it has other tentacles into
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other parts of the business. But as it
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stands and with the with in terms of the
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boardroom, you definitely need AI
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literacy and oversight in the boardroom
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especially [clears throat]
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to shape your strategy. Do you think
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that how do you manage I suppose
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governance before it kind of runs away
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with itself with regards to AI's that AI
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governance?
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Where do you where do you start because
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you do say AI is moving exceptionally
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quickly
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um and quicker than people can even, you
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know, try and catch up.
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How does an organization prioritize
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what's important with regards to AI
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governance and what isn't? You see, in
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the boards, you see, we talk we talk we
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often talk about the board room, yeah?
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And the board room is the highest
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governing body of any organization,
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okay?
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But you also have the committees as
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well.
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And the committees are the engine room
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of the board. And the committees now
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straddle both the board and the exec.
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And this is where a lot of the
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challenging and a lot of the
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conversations, I mean, that's why I say
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it's the engine room. Go on, okay?
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Now, it's incumbent on the board to
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understand that AI is here to stay and
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then set
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or put those guardrails around, okay?
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So, we have committees whereby we
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challenge the AI strategy as an example,
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okay? Because AI has come and as I said
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to you, it is outpacing business in
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itself. It is almost railroading us.
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And organizations have to stand up very
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quickly.
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And especially for execs, you know,
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execs, I mean, have to almost act like
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they know. And we as board directors as
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well have to either upskill ourselves
00:14:44
very quickly or
00:14:46
sometimes act like you know.
00:14:49
But I've been fortunate to be around
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boards whereby it has been recognized
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that AI is really intrinsic or it's
00:14:58
pivotal to our future direction.
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And for the future sustainability of the
00:15:03
business.
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Also,
00:15:06
in the environment in which we are, in
00:15:08
which
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geopolitics plays a massive role in how
00:15:13
organizations are run today,
00:15:16
things like AI give us an
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it is the way because
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we have to
00:15:25
in terms of things like profit and loss
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and all of that, it's not all around
00:15:28
efficiencies. You know, it's all around
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organic growth. It's all around how then
00:15:33
do you engender your human capital, your
00:15:36
people again, to think innovatively,
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and then
00:15:41
and then and to facilitate ourselves or
00:15:43
grow ourselves out of this
00:15:46
where we find ourselves today. You know,
00:15:48
there's been there hasn't been very much
00:15:50
growth.
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And the hope has been pinned on AI to
00:15:54
get us out of there. So, how then do we
00:15:57
square that circle? And how then do we
00:15:59
then begin to build at scale solutions,
00:16:03
technological or technology solutions,
00:16:05
that really then grow the organization?
00:16:09
So, when you talk about AI, you talk
00:16:10
about the board, you talk about you can
00:16:12
see the now the the threat about people.
00:16:14
It's all around people. AI is there to
00:16:17
amplify our minds, what we can do as
00:16:19
people. You know, but it doesn't have
00:16:21
the it doesn't have the ability to have
00:16:22
that emotion and that decision-making.
00:16:25
We take all of that, that processing
00:16:27
power makes us much more quicker,
00:16:28
better, faster, efficient, but then you
00:16:31
have that human at the center to then
00:16:33
make those decisions. So, for
00:16:35
organizations today, we are
00:16:38
organizations are having to sort of um
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to learn as they grow. You know, there's
00:16:43
a lot of investment. Last year, there
00:16:45
was a lot of investment in terms of
00:16:47
proof of concepts and things like that.
00:16:49
Now, we're deploying.
00:16:51
You know, and we're moving at scale. So,
00:16:53
things are moving along.
00:16:55
I mean, the
00:16:56
um the um the biggest growing companies
00:16:58
in the states are all most of technology
00:17:00
companies, you know, the Nasdaq and
00:17:02
stuff. So, they are the growth engine.
00:17:05
You know, so I think things will
00:17:06
stabilize, but boards need to have the
00:17:09
AI literacy, not just AI, cyber. Cyber
00:17:12
is another big threat,
00:17:13
because we use AI as a force for good.
00:17:16
They AI to engender deep fakes as a
00:17:19
source for bad to then topple what we
00:17:21
kind of kind of things we do. So, it you
00:17:23
see there's beginning you see that into
00:17:25
the the linkage there there. So, it's
00:17:27
really important that that we have that
00:17:30
level of human oversight in the
00:17:32
boardroom. And looking at the human kind
00:17:35
of aspect, so as you say the the
00:17:37
people-centric governance, how can
00:17:40
organizations bring that into an
00:17:43
organization? Perhaps they already have
00:17:45
it. Um I always say that you know,
00:17:47
governance is there whether it's being
00:17:49
tended to or not. It it's there.
00:17:52
Um
00:17:53
how do you see it working to be that
00:17:56
success factor? It's not easy,
00:17:59
but it can be done.
00:18:01
And it's a big cultural change within
00:18:04
the organization,
00:18:06
you know.
00:18:07
I've seen it done very differently in in
00:18:09
different organizations, but the moment
00:18:11
you then begin to realize that your
00:18:13
people are an asset, and you treat them
00:18:15
as an asset, and you create an
00:18:17
environment in which people can succeed,
00:18:20
and you put the people agenda on the
00:18:22
strategic arm.
00:18:24
You see? And it is monitored, it is
00:18:27
measured, you know? So, whatever is I
00:18:30
always say to people whatever is on the
00:18:31
revenue side of an a business, you know,
00:18:33
if you're pitching, pitch it on the
00:18:35
revenue side, you know? It will get
00:18:37
attention. You know, it's not a drain on
00:18:38
the business. It is part It is intrinsic
00:18:40
to your strategy. If your strategy is to
00:18:43
grow to become the biggest or the number
00:18:44
one, your people are going to take you
00:18:46
there. You know, if you have the right
00:18:48
environment that engenders that and you
00:18:50
make your people felt feel heard, and
00:18:54
they feel heard and valued,
00:18:57
you get that big you begin to get that
00:18:59
critical mass,
00:19:00
you know? And um
00:19:02
I say and um I did an article with the
00:19:05
um the the Governance Institute. It was
00:19:07
called
00:19:08
it is it's people first and the
00:19:10
governance will follow. That was it that
00:19:12
was the title of the article.
00:19:14
And it talked about commitment being a
00:19:16
very strong currency, you know, and
00:19:18
almost trumping
00:19:20
um compliance.
00:19:22
It's not at odds with compliance, but
00:19:24
when you have a committed workforce, and
00:19:27
you have people who are committed and
00:19:29
will put their chest to the wheel of an
00:19:31
organization, the sky's the limit. I
00:19:33
have seen it work in practice. I have
00:19:36
seen cultural measures and even employee
00:19:38
engagement programs every I mean every
00:19:41
board I sit on I'm I'm quite vocal about
00:19:44
this. I'm I'm I'm known for this.
00:19:46
The You see, you're putting the employee
00:19:49
engagement programs, the pulse surveys,
00:19:51
you know, all these things are not just
00:19:53
tick boxes. Yes. Your employees will
00:19:55
tell you where the pain points are.
00:19:58
You know, modern governance today, the
00:20:00
modern boardroom calls for more intimacy
00:20:02
between the board and the organization.
00:20:06
You know, and it's that layer
00:20:08
between that and it's how you manage
00:20:10
that layer, and how you then ensure that
00:20:13
it bubbles up to the committees, whether
00:20:16
it's the responsible business committee,
00:20:17
whether it's the audit and you you you
00:20:19
have the oversight for risk, you know,
00:20:20
you have audit and risk, whether the
00:20:22
exact are remunerated in a way that then
00:20:26
engenders you know, so it it's actually
00:20:27
has tentacles into the remuneration.
00:20:30
And then that also then has cross, you
00:20:32
know,
00:20:33
touch points with the responsible
00:20:35
business and all these kind of things.
00:20:36
So, it's quite an interesting
00:20:39
mix at the board level. You asked me
00:20:41
about the FTSE board. You know, it's
00:20:42
quite a complex, but it it does make
00:20:45
sense, you know, and when it is run
00:20:47
well, and when it is recognized, and
00:20:50
when it is then cascaded down through
00:20:52
the organization, and the feedback comes
00:20:55
back upwards through the organization as
00:20:57
well, you have a meeting point whereby
00:20:59
you're not just a board there to tick
00:21:01
boxes, but you're there to listen and
00:21:04
effect change. And this is where
00:21:06
influence, which is a big I mean is is a
00:21:08
big thing in the board, then shines
00:21:10
through. Who should take ultimate
00:21:12
accountability and responsibility for
00:21:15
the governance of an organization, for
00:21:17
implementing this? As I say, it starts
00:21:19
with the unit, the person.
00:21:21
You it is each and every one of us. I
00:21:24
mean, if you go back to the the the
00:21:27
origins of governance and stuff, it's
00:21:28
all it's for the people, of the people,
00:21:30
by the people, that kind of thing. But,
00:21:32
within it is everybody. It is the
00:21:34
responsibility of everyone. It's not the
00:21:36
preserve of, let's say, HR or anything.
00:21:39
We have to take individual
00:21:40
accountability for our organizations,
00:21:43
for showing up, for showing up as best
00:21:45
as we can, the organizations for
00:21:47
creating that environment in which we
00:21:49
can show up, and we can be our best
00:21:51
selves and do well. And the board also
00:21:54
for then
00:21:55
owning that, you know. So, the corporate
00:21:58
governance is owned by the board.
00:22:00
Okay? The operational governance is
00:22:01
owned I mean or we hold the executive
00:22:04
account. The board is held to account
00:22:06
for the corporate governance by the
00:22:08
shareholders, reporting to the
00:22:09
shareholders. You know, we have the
00:22:10
responsibility of appointing the
00:22:12
executive the the the executive
00:22:15
directors. But, also the operational
00:22:18
governance is then you know, there's a
00:22:19
line there's an alignment between the
00:22:21
corporate governance, operational
00:22:23
governance, and if that is then then
00:22:25
that goes down to projects and
00:22:27
everything. Because for every single
00:22:30
project or program, I go back to my
00:22:32
project management days. Projects
00:22:33
deliver um output.
00:22:36
Programs deliver outcomes.
00:22:38
Those outcomes inform your strategy.
00:22:41
So, the projects, the programs are all
00:22:44
inextricably linked to the strategy of
00:22:46
that organization. You don't have
00:22:48
orphaned projects. So, when you then
00:22:50
begin to think about it, then you then
00:22:53
begin to think about even in in project
00:22:55
financing and stuff. You do you or
00:22:57
you're doing all the management
00:22:58
accounting. You're then doing the
00:22:59
financial accounting, which is then to
00:23:01
the which is looking
00:23:03
backwards. The management accounting
00:23:05
looks forward. You're forecasting,
00:23:06
you're budgeting, and things like that.
00:23:08
And those kind of things are the key
00:23:10
decision makers for the board to then
00:23:12
use to then inform the markets and then
00:23:14
our shareholders. So, it's all that
00:23:16
whole thing that goes through, you know,
00:23:18
so it's it is very important to
00:23:20
understand that, yeah. Mhm. And do you
00:23:21
think there's ever a time where you can
00:23:25
over-govern an organization? So,
00:23:28
too much bureaucracy, 100 million
00:23:32
committees to agree to sign off
00:23:34
someone's expenses.
00:23:35
Have you experienced that before?
00:23:37
>> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
00:23:39
>> You look exhausted just thinking about
00:23:41
it.
00:23:41
>> even as I mean even when I was um during
00:23:44
my as part of my career, you know, there
00:23:46
is something and that can be I mean that
00:23:48
can I mean you talk about analysis and
00:23:50
paralysis but so paralysis by analysis,
00:23:52
you know, that that those sort of
00:23:53
things. Those kind of things come from
00:23:54
too much governance, you know, and this
00:23:56
is where I talk about in that in the
00:23:58
article I talked about um
00:24:00
um um um with the governance institute,
00:24:03
I talked about something to do with
00:24:04
lightning controls and giving human
00:24:07
oversight, but not in heavily I mean not
00:24:09
in highly regulated industries. So,
00:24:11
where you have professional services and
00:24:13
things like that. But you see it's it's
00:24:15
a function of many many many things, you
00:24:17
know, we have regulation
00:24:19
and for a long time I mean regulation
00:24:22
has almost been seen I mean that there
00:24:24
there's some quarters where it's seen as
00:24:25
almost punitive.
00:24:27
You see, whereby regulation I mean of
00:24:29
course you have policy, then you have
00:24:31
legislation, and then you have
00:24:32
regulation, okay? So, the regulators are
00:24:34
there to enforce the law and we have to
00:24:37
act in deference to regulation, okay?
00:24:40
But sometimes and I see this happening
00:24:42
and I hope that I mean we will reform
00:24:44
the way
00:24:45
we um just in terms of how we regulate
00:24:48
business because sometimes it can dull
00:24:52
one's creativity.
00:24:53
You see, where you when you're working
00:24:55
in a very black and white I mean it's
00:24:56
it's on and off is binary.
00:24:58
But when you then begin to stray into
00:25:00
the areas, the gray areas, whereby
00:25:04
there's a need for innovation, there's a
00:25:06
need and always as we talked about it,
00:25:09
um
00:25:10
what do you call technology and
00:25:11
technological advancement may
00:25:14
an innovation, innovation in its truest
00:25:16
sense, may also outpace regulation. So,
00:25:20
regulation is tracking innovation.
00:25:22
Now, those gray areas, where how well
00:25:26
how do you play in that?
00:25:28
You know, look at cyber as an example.
00:25:30
In companies I've I've advised and I've
00:25:32
been in companies that have been hit by
00:25:34
cyber. It is it takes its toll and the
00:25:37
emotional toll on an organization. I
00:25:40
cannot tell you. Spare a thought for the
00:25:41
execs because they are there working.
00:25:45
But what happens sometimes is
00:25:48
people don't realize that you have to go
00:25:50
out, especially for listed companies,
00:25:51
with things that are factually correct.
00:25:54
This is more, okay?
00:25:56
Yes, so and then, you know, and then in
00:25:59
doing that, you have to be circumspect
00:26:01
about how you go out to the market.
00:26:03
Your people at the front end are there
00:26:06
fighting your or working with your
00:26:08
customers who are panicking, rightly so.
00:26:11
You know, but that circumspection then
00:26:14
breeds uncertainty. And sometimes, you
00:26:16
know, you're not And then in the absence
00:26:18
of saying things, of course, people will
00:26:20
make things up. But that is in a sense
00:26:22
regulation then almost dulling the
00:26:24
capability of our being able to think
00:26:27
our way out of a critical situation.
00:26:30
You see, so this is sometimes where But
00:26:32
I think that things are I think the
00:26:33
regulate the regulators' position is
00:26:35
softening now because what is happening
00:26:38
again is that we now have enough
00:26:40
companies. It's not about an if, it's
00:26:42
almost a when.
00:26:43
It would be foolhardy of any board to
00:26:44
think that you're not going to be hit by
00:26:45
cyber. But now there is it there are
00:26:48
enough
00:26:49
organizations that have been hit and I
00:26:51
think the regulators are now
00:26:52
understanding that, "Listen, you need to
00:26:54
step back at some point and let you know
00:26:56
let and let the organization understand
00:26:58
where it is." And this is to my point
00:27:00
whereby good practice informs policy,
00:27:04
then policy then informs legislation,
00:27:06
and then it becomes regulation. So, you
00:27:08
see that whole feedback loop whereby you
00:27:11
are building that excellence into the
00:27:13
into the practice, the process, and how
00:27:16
you safeguard companies.
00:27:19
You're absolutely right. And with with
00:27:20
the MAR regulations, the market abuse
00:27:22
regulations, there's there are so many
00:27:25
times that I've been in corporates, in
00:27:28
organizations, listed organizations
00:27:29
obviously that have to comply, financial
00:27:32
services, and they are almost hamstrung
00:27:35
to need to say something because the the
00:27:40
monkey on their shoulder essentially is
00:27:42
the after the event, if the share price
00:27:44
moves significantly, then they could end
00:27:46
up with
00:27:48
um an investigation from the financial
00:27:50
regulator coming in and asking why they
00:27:53
didn't release an announcement earlier,
00:27:54
coupled with the fact that as you say,
00:27:56
going out to the market and saying
00:27:58
something they're not 100% sure of
00:27:59
equally could do the same the other way.
00:28:02
Um
00:28:03
absolutely, it's so difficult.
00:28:06
>> It's so difficult, but then you have the
00:28:07
regulators there, you have your
00:28:08
shareholders, your institutional and
00:28:10
your retail shareholders, you have your
00:28:12
employees, you have your suppliers. It's
00:28:15
a whole ecosystem, you know, and you're
00:28:17
right in the middle of that trying to
00:28:19
balance things out, trying to hold that
00:28:21
tension. And it's there for the board to
00:28:24
also support the execs. I mean, I have
00:28:26
enough respect for any organization and
00:28:29
and and execs that um um um that have
00:28:31
been hit and the amount of work that
00:28:33
goes on in the background that people do
00:28:35
not see.
00:28:36
You know, it is it is almost it is
00:28:37
commendable. And off the back of that as
00:28:40
well, we are we we're in choppy waters
00:28:42
now, and um
00:28:43
you know, there are times when
00:28:45
we do good things, you know, there good
00:28:47
things done and with across the
00:28:48
business, we're moving the business
00:28:50
forward and one thing can happen that
00:28:53
steals a headline and it drowns out all
00:28:55
the good stuff you're doing. So, you're
00:28:57
you're you're consistently or you're
00:28:59
continuously then sort of morale
00:29:02
building, you know, trying to find that
00:29:03
good story, that good win, that thing.
00:29:06
You know, it's it's it's it's it's it's
00:29:08
it's challenging times but very
00:29:09
interesting times at the same time,
00:29:10
yeah. Mhm, absolutely. I was really keen
00:29:13
to start up this podcast for exactly the
00:29:16
reason that you just said about bringing
00:29:18
to light how challenging it is because
00:29:20
from afar, depending on the level of
00:29:22
communication and sometimes depending on
00:29:23
the type of organization, leaders
00:29:25
sometimes can, sometimes can't explain
00:29:28
why things happened in a certain way and
00:29:32
taking employees as a stakeholder group
00:29:33
for instance, if there is mass
00:29:36
redundancy or there are particular
00:29:38
divisions that are sold or liquidated,
00:29:41
whatever it might be,
00:29:42
I've heard conversations with those type
00:29:45
of employees saying, "They didn't care.
00:29:48
I was just a number on a spreadsheet and
00:29:50
it was just, oh, no, we don't need them.
00:29:52
Bye-bye. Move on." And I know from being
00:29:55
the other side of it in boardrooms that
00:29:56
that isn't the case and although the
00:29:59
decision may well need to be made, it's
00:30:02
made with humanity and with thought and
00:30:06
there is consideration
00:30:08
the majority of the time for the
00:30:09
communication style and how that's
00:30:11
spoken about and there is sadness as
00:30:14
well even within boardrooms that I've
00:30:16
been in of feeling either personal
00:30:20
failure or company failure or just
00:30:22
disappointing whoever those people are
00:30:24
and I think that's really important
00:30:26
point that you just brought out there.
00:30:28
You know, it's never easy and we can
00:30:29
stand in judgement and I look back on my
00:30:32
career and I look at the times when
00:30:36
I would think, you know,
00:30:38
delivering and I've been a a
00:30:40
seen my um some teams crash and burn as
00:30:43
well.
00:30:44
You question what management are doing.
00:30:46
You question how things are are going
00:30:48
and you say to you and that is me saying
00:30:50
to myself,
00:30:52
you know, if I was in a position of
00:30:53
authority and influence, I would do
00:30:55
things entirely different.
00:30:58
Fast forward today,
00:31:00
that is still my watchword. It is still
00:31:02
incumbent upon me
00:31:04
as a board director and um even as a
00:31:08
just as another human being to spare
00:31:10
thought for the next person, you know,
00:31:12
and how and for the employees as well.
00:31:15
And know that um when we do things,
00:31:17
there are human casualties,
00:31:19
you know, and when when and we're we're
00:31:21
now in times where
00:31:23
it's all around the efficiencies
00:31:25
and all around um how well
00:31:28
and um how well we can generate either
00:31:31
the revenue or the the top or the bottom
00:31:33
line.
00:31:34
And it's that thing in the middle,
00:31:36
you know, where we then begin to take
00:31:38
cost out and stuff. It has I um real,
00:31:41
you know, implications for people. It's
00:31:43
definitely a bit of a a story or a
00:31:45
narrative going on at the moment um that
00:31:48
successful technology businesses are
00:31:51
ruthless, they're cutthroat, they're all
00:31:53
about the money, uh particularly some of
00:31:55
the big Silicon Valley players.
00:31:58
>> [snorts]
00:31:58
>> Do you think that they have to be or
00:32:01
maybe it's even the perception they
00:32:02
either created themselves or that is
00:32:04
reality, but do you think that that is
00:32:08
the only way to create high-performing
00:32:10
culture and team? No, I don't absolutely
00:32:13
not. It's not the only way. You know, it
00:32:15
is a way.
00:32:17
I do not subscribe to that way,
00:32:19
but I believe in doing good business,
00:32:22
okay, profitable business.
00:32:25
But profitable business at what cost?
00:32:28
Yes.
00:32:29
>> this is where exactly conscientious
00:32:31
business comes into it as well.
00:32:33
Profitable business at the cost of your
00:32:36
employees.
00:32:37
There are times when needs must and when
00:32:40
you find that you expend your
00:32:42
expenditure, your spending as much as
00:32:43
your and your revenue, you have
00:32:45
investors. So, you then have to These
00:32:48
are decisions that are all taken in the
00:32:49
boardroom. You know, so what do we do in
00:32:51
the best interest of the organization?
00:32:54
And there are times when organizations
00:32:56
are indeed inefficient and you know, you
00:32:59
know, inefficient. And we have to find
00:33:01
the efficiencies across the piece. This
00:33:03
is not the preserve of the or this has
00:33:05
happened or I mean I've I've I've grown
00:33:08
up in the technology industry. You know,
00:33:10
from one different I mean in different
00:33:11
regions and stuff. And it's a cyclical
00:33:14
thing as well. When times are good, you
00:33:16
know, they're employing en masse. We
00:33:18
don't remember that bit when
00:33:20
organizations are employing en masse,
00:33:22
you know. And when times are bad or when
00:33:24
we have to, you know, we we were almost
00:33:26
on the brink of a recession.
00:33:28
You see and um we are still, you know,
00:33:32
interest rates are coming down, you
00:33:33
know, inflation as well. You know, it's
00:33:35
not quite there as yet.
00:33:36
You know, so we have these and we have
00:33:38
all these business challenges that we
00:33:40
need to do. So, sometimes it is
00:33:42
necessary, but it's how it's also done
00:33:45
as well. You know, when it when it when
00:33:47
it is done in a way that is that takes
00:33:49
the
00:33:50
the um the employees into account as
00:33:52
well.
00:33:53
You know, and things are explained or
00:33:55
then they're cascaded or you have those
00:33:57
you have the lines of communication, you
00:34:00
know, and very clear lines of
00:34:01
communication and it's also done fairly.
00:34:04
You see, not at the expense of one or
00:34:06
disproportionately or things like that.
00:34:08
When it is done fairly.
00:34:11
Onto people,
00:34:12
um you know, it's um
00:34:15
it's it can be it's it's not an easy
00:34:17
thing. It's not an easy thing for the
00:34:18
board. It's not an easy thing for the
00:34:20
exec, you know, it's not easy for the
00:34:22
employees as well.
00:34:24
But organizations have to succeed and
00:34:26
organizations are there for a purpose.
00:34:29
You know, to deliver services, to
00:34:30
deliver good business, you know, how we
00:34:33
ranked and how we measured on against
00:34:36
our success. What is that success
00:34:38
predicated on? You know, so it's it's
00:34:40
all these things. So, it's not just a
00:34:41
very simple thing whereby you say
00:34:43
they're ruthless. I mean, and you know
00:34:45
what? If there are unscrupulous
00:34:46
companies like that that yeah, they may
00:34:48
be, but I certainly do not agree with
00:34:50
that
00:34:51
um mode of management, not at all.
00:34:54
It's also the approach that I've kind of
00:34:57
always thought about that it isn't
00:35:00
necessary to become
00:35:03
a non-human to just see see people as
00:35:06
numbers, whoever they are, whichever
00:35:08
role they occupy, whether they whatever
00:35:10
stakeholder group they might sit in.
00:35:13
I think that that human bit of it is
00:35:16
really important.
00:35:17
>> It is. It is. And that feedback as well.
00:35:19
You see
00:35:20
You see, we think um
00:35:22
you know, when you talk about the
00:35:23
emotional intelligence, it's not about
00:35:25
the sort of touchy-feely. No, it's about
00:35:28
having a finger on the pulse of your
00:35:29
organization, understanding the
00:35:32
sentiment from your employees.
00:35:35
And [snorts] that is such a great
00:35:37
insight into your organization and the
00:35:40
pulse, you know, the pulse of the
00:35:41
organization. Do you have a finger on
00:35:43
the pulse of that and your people? You
00:35:45
know, and how well do you then respond
00:35:48
to that? You know, this that that is a
00:35:50
top table discussion. It is.
00:35:53
Without your workforce, you're nothing.
00:35:55
Yeah. Indeed.
00:35:57
You know, so it's not it's no longer it
00:35:58
is actually almost a strategic
00:36:01
imperative. You know, as well that also
00:36:04
bleeds into things like diversity,
00:36:05
things, you know, it's it's it's all of
00:36:07
those things in the mix. You know, and
00:36:09
how then do you then build that
00:36:11
competitive advantage?
00:36:14
You know, because it's a highly
00:36:15
competitive world out there.
00:36:17
It doesn't necessarily need to be
00:36:19
cutthroat. You know, but you can be
00:36:21
competitive and you can run business in
00:36:23
a conscientious way. And if you're
00:36:26
purpose-led as well, if you have those,
00:36:28
you know, those values, those core
00:36:30
values that you instill, not just you
00:36:33
model those values at the board level,
00:36:35
but you it makes sure that you hold your
00:36:37
executive accountable and they they
00:36:38
exhibit those values or those behaviors,
00:36:41
and that is cascaded down to the
00:36:43
organization, that is how cultural
00:36:45
change is is born. And then you get the
00:36:47
feedback from, you know, so you cascade
00:36:50
down and you get that feedback, you
00:36:52
know, and then you begin to act on that.
00:36:54
It is incredibly powerful when done
00:36:56
well. And you just mentioned diversity.
00:36:58
What do you see as diversity when you're
00:37:00
talking about the boardroom?
00:37:03
I think it's a key strategic enabler.
00:37:05
And I think it's um it is it is a
00:37:08
competitive advantage. It's those
00:37:11
differences
00:37:12
that become an asset to the company.
00:37:15
You see,
00:37:16
now just in in today's world where there
00:37:19
is a where it's highly competitive,
00:37:23
when is it ever good to have a
00:37:27
proportion of um of your employee
00:37:29
[clears throat] base
00:37:31
disadvantaged?
00:37:33
When would you not look to harness the
00:37:36
potential
00:37:38
in that, you know? So, whether it is
00:37:40
females in the boardroom, whether it is
00:37:42
ethnic minorities in the boardroom, that
00:37:45
is what you can see, that is what is
00:37:47
optically visible,
00:37:49
but
00:37:50
there's much more to it. And I say to
00:37:53
people on a board and I would I mean I
00:37:54
would love to get to a point whereby
00:37:57
those differences are celebrated. And I
00:37:59
say to people
00:38:00
um a world I want a world in which it
00:38:03
would be that I'm a technology,
00:38:05
governance, you know, sustainability
00:38:07
expert who just happens to be a black
00:38:08
woman.
00:38:10
But there in, you know, so would you
00:38:12
then discount that because I look
00:38:15
different?
00:38:16
And don't get me wrong, you know, it is
00:38:18
it's never easy because um
00:38:22
um
00:38:24
I know when I join I mean organizations
00:38:26
when I join you know you you you you
00:38:28
a lot of times I'm the lone ranger
00:38:30
there.
00:38:31
And um
00:38:32
and I know I'm being assessed and I know
00:38:35
and you know you you you want to get to
00:38:37
the point whereby
00:38:39
you are there in your substantive right
00:38:41
sitting shoulder to shoulder with the
00:38:43
next person.
00:38:44
And what happens invariably is that um
00:38:46
people then they begin they get past it
00:38:48
quite quickly, you know, and then you're
00:38:50
there as a substantive board director
00:38:53
who has who has value to add. Um and my
00:38:57
race or my gender should not have a
00:39:00
bearing on what I have between my ears
00:39:03
or the intellectual capital that I bring
00:39:05
to the table. Now transcend um transpose
00:39:08
that into the organization whereby you
00:39:11
have a whole you know um a range of
00:39:14
people from different parts of the
00:39:15
world, different protected
00:39:17
characteristics.
00:39:19
And how that can be pulled together into
00:39:22
such a powerful force for good. So we're
00:39:25
not looking at our differences but we're
00:39:27
looking at the strength that the
00:39:29
collective bring to the table.
00:39:32
And those organizations that can
00:39:35
integrate that seamlessly into the
00:39:38
governance, into the processes, into the
00:39:40
practices, and into the um
00:39:43
the the framework for how organizations
00:39:46
work are those that will succeed.
00:39:49
>> [snorts]
00:39:49
>> You know, it's it's it's it it is a very
00:39:51
powerful force.
00:39:53
How can people avoid
00:39:56
that
00:39:57
I suppose like you say making someone
00:39:59
feel like they're a box tick. I assume
00:40:02
that the reason that this continues is
00:40:04
the fact that people don't know any
00:40:05
different not that they proactively go
00:40:07
out of their way to be like that. So
00:40:09
what do you think people can do
00:40:10
practically to make people feel
00:40:12
supported?
00:40:13
>> Okay, there's a lot of discomfort around
00:40:14
it. You know, even talking about it
00:40:16
there's a little bit of discomfort
00:40:17
around it, but um
00:40:19
one of the biggest things for me is
00:40:21
around allyship.
00:40:23
And not just allyship in terms of
00:40:26
speaking, so allyship in its
00:40:28
quintessential, you know, in its its um
00:40:31
um definition
00:40:33
is yes, I mean, that lending your voice
00:40:35
to that person who isn't there and stuff
00:40:37
and you know, supporting all of that.
00:40:39
But in speaking up for others as well.
00:40:44
You know,
00:40:45
if you see things that are going wrong,
00:40:47
if you know that you have a really good
00:40:50
colleague who has worked twice as hard,
00:40:53
who is working hard but is overlooked
00:40:55
for promotion, what stops Why when is it
00:40:57
ever acceptable to say yes, I mean, this
00:41:00
person is there and then yes, I'm being
00:41:01
promoted and that's fine. When is it
00:41:03
ever acceptable? I'll take that further
00:41:06
and I'll take that to the organizational
00:41:07
level.
00:41:09
When you begin to bake in practices and
00:41:11
build a culture that is predicated on
00:41:15
allyship and you encourage that and you
00:41:17
model that at the board level,
00:41:20
you don't know the amount of people who
00:41:22
have come up to me and saying just
00:41:23
seeing a black female at the board level
00:41:26
just optically alone gives me hope that
00:41:29
I can aspire.
00:41:30
You can see what you you know, you can
00:41:32
be what you can see.
00:41:34
So, if you then begin to build a system
00:41:38
whereby it is acceptable
00:41:41
to then and it is actually rewarded, you
00:41:44
know, and you see people as your allies
00:41:46
and you know that it is a fair and this
00:41:49
goes back to the and the values of the
00:41:50
organization, you know, your personal
00:41:52
values, those intrinsic values
00:41:55
and then you begin to then foster that
00:41:57
across the organization,
00:41:59
you know, it's a big signal. It's a
00:42:00
massive signal. So, when you talk about
00:42:03
people who are diverse and you tick box,
00:42:06
you know, and I mean, I sit I serve on
00:42:08
boards and I'm the I'm yes, I'm the the
00:42:11
only black female, but I can tell you
00:42:13
that yes, I am, but I have earned that
00:42:15
position.
00:42:16
You know, I have gone I have been
00:42:18
through the you know, the the levels and
00:42:20
you find that and I'm not alone. There
00:42:23
are plenty of me out there.
00:42:25
You know, who are just looking for that
00:42:26
opportunity.
00:42:27
And then the moment we begin to change
00:42:29
our mindset, but it's for people like
00:42:32
myself who are now there to then show
00:42:35
and to open that door and to hold it
00:42:38
open for the others and to be that
00:42:40
advocate as well for others.
00:42:42
You see, and not just others that look
00:42:44
like me
00:42:45
leveling that playing field.
00:42:48
Something that
00:42:50
we that that doesn't get enough
00:42:52
attention is we all we ultimately look
00:42:55
at the ascending voices, you know, the
00:42:57
voices that you talk about, but think
00:42:59
about the the dissenting voices as well.
00:43:01
You know, those tell you things as well
00:43:04
whereby you can then get to that point
00:43:06
of almost coexistence where you have
00:43:08
almost
00:43:09
opposing diametrically opposing forces
00:43:12
and then you find that middle ground,
00:43:13
that center ground because what it is is
00:43:15
not about displacing others. It's not a
00:43:18
zero-sum game for one to gain, the other
00:43:20
must lose. No, why can't the tide rise
00:43:23
for all?
00:43:25
You see, that [clears throat] is a
00:43:25
powerful situation. That is potential
00:43:28
within an organization. That is your
00:43:31
competitive advantage.
00:43:33
You see, so when you when when the tide
00:43:35
rises for all or when you build
00:43:37
equitable systems that that that then
00:43:40
engender inclusivity.
00:43:43
You see, so there's something about
00:43:44
diversity. Yes, you get the bumps on
00:43:46
seats. You get yes, you know, and
00:43:48
diversity is not always visible
00:43:50
optically visible. But the big thing
00:43:53
there is inclusion.
00:43:55
And then how do you then begin to build
00:43:58
an inclusive ecosystem within your
00:44:00
organization? Powerful when you get it
00:44:03
right, but it starts from having those
00:44:05
conversations.
00:44:07
You know, that initial conversation and
00:44:09
when you then signal that you are open
00:44:11
to having those conversations can be
00:44:13
such a massive force for good and for
00:44:17
that momentum as well. Yeah.
00:44:20
That's really powerful.
00:44:21
And I think that
00:44:23
what you said would be so useful for so
00:44:26
many leaders to
00:44:28
start to build [snorts] a different
00:44:30
world.
00:44:32
It's definitely
00:44:34
Yeah, there's there's so many aspects of
00:44:36
what you've said that I can experience
00:44:39
myself. A lady once told me
00:44:42
when I gave a talk,
00:44:44
I was talking about my upbringing and my
00:44:46
background and the fact that I came from
00:44:48
an underprivileged working class
00:44:51
background and had a very difficult
00:44:53
education kind of process in order to be
00:44:56
able to just fight to even just be able
00:44:58
to get into school and to be able to do
00:45:00
all those things and kind of move
00:45:02
through the the education system. But
00:45:05
one lady did say to me when I spoke
00:45:07
about my past experience, she was not a
00:45:10
white woman and she said, "But you have
00:45:12
white privilege."
00:45:14
And it was probably the first time that
00:45:16
I really thought
00:45:18
she's right.
00:45:20
She's right.
00:45:21
I I may not appreciate that that's what
00:45:24
I have, but I do.
00:45:27
And I think that's the piece that I have
00:45:29
people need to reflect and I hadn't even
00:45:31
thought about it. I don't wake up every
00:45:33
morning and look at my skin color and
00:45:34
think, "Look what color I am." It's just
00:45:38
didn't even occur to me.
00:45:40
Um, but I think when somebody calls you
00:45:42
out on something and yeah, it felt
00:45:43
really uncomfortable at the time because
00:45:45
I kind of thought, "Oh my gosh, I've
00:45:46
just offended loads of people
00:45:49
more by not identifying that than what
00:45:51
I'd actually said." But yeah, I think
00:45:53
people need to open their eyes and
00:45:55
realize that the world is how it is. And
00:45:58
like you say, allyship is is a really
00:46:01
strong part of it. See, but to that
00:46:02
point as well, you see, I don't wake up
00:46:04
either thinking that I'm a black woman
00:46:06
and I'm disadvantaged. I think I'm a
00:46:08
human being and I go in there, you know,
00:46:10
in my own right as a human and why not?
00:46:12
If not, why not? This is not a limiting
00:46:14
factor. If anything, this is my this is
00:46:17
me. This is my superpower. This is this
00:46:19
is Neca. You know, so it's it's a it's a
00:46:22
core
00:46:24
part of me.
00:46:25
You see, it's it it it is.
00:46:28
So, when it is not or when it is a seen
00:46:31
as a limiting factor or when it is when
00:46:34
you're made to feel that it's a limiting
00:46:36
factor,
00:46:37
it can be really soul destroying, you
00:46:40
know, especially when you are
00:46:42
um you're you're you are a contributor.
00:46:45
You have a lot to contribute, you know,
00:46:47
and you have just as much or maybe even
00:46:49
more than the next person to contribute,
00:46:51
but you're discounted on factors that
00:46:53
have no bearing on the intellectual
00:46:56
capital you bring to the table.
00:46:59
You know.
00:47:00
Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:02
Um and to close out, what would you say
00:47:06
would be some valuable things for
00:47:09
somebody to bring to the table if
00:47:12
they're joining a board, maybe as a
00:47:14
non-exec director, maybe a different
00:47:16
sector or just a different step out,
00:47:19
maybe it's their first um role.
00:47:22
Maybe in the first 90 days, what would
00:47:24
you say that they should really be
00:47:26
thinking about and um working on? And
00:47:30
joining a board can be a daunting thing.
00:47:31
I mean, it it is daunting to the even to
00:47:33
the most confident and especially if
00:47:35
it's your first rodeo, your first board
00:47:37
and stuff and um
00:47:39
you know, it's I would say
00:47:43
almost be kind to yourself. You will
00:47:46
wobble.
00:47:48
You know, any board or any position I've
00:47:50
gone into, you know, the the first few
00:47:52
days you're trying to Not even the first
00:47:53
few days. I mean, the as you say, the
00:47:55
ninth first 90 days or whatever, you're
00:47:57
finding your feet. You're understanding
00:47:59
your your building chemistry with
00:48:01
others. Those relationships are really
00:48:04
important and will put you in stand you
00:48:05
in good stead moving on forward.
00:48:08
But, I would say I mean it's not even a
00:48:10
but, it's something that you bring your
00:48:13
skills to the table. The modern boards
00:48:16
these days or the way the boards are
00:48:18
evolving
00:48:21
commercial all the experience you've had
00:48:24
as an or in your in your um
00:48:27
commercial or your exact career
00:48:30
comes to bear bring that to bear as
00:48:32
well.
00:48:33
You know, it's important you have
00:48:34
relevant skills. Boards I mean they you
00:48:38
know each
00:48:39
um on the okay I got on the boards you
00:48:42
you bring a particular
00:48:44
um expertise or discipline to the board,
00:48:47
okay? So, it may be HR in my own it but
00:48:50
it was all my operational
00:48:53
um experience, my technology experience,
00:48:55
my governance experience. Others may be
00:48:57
in finance, others may be in human
00:48:59
resources, commercial, all those kind of
00:49:00
things. But,
00:49:02
it is for the right board it is
00:49:04
relevant.
00:49:05
So, go in there
00:49:07
step up to the plate
00:49:09
and bring your skills forth. You know,
00:49:12
it's um
00:49:15
I would say I mean and also on the
00:49:16
softer side of things
00:49:19
the higher you go in an organization
00:49:23
the more exposed you you are to the
00:49:26
elements of politics. And at the board
00:49:29
level it becomes a bit more
00:49:31
sophisticated and a bit more nuanced.
00:49:34
Okay?
00:49:35
So, the relationships you you build or
00:49:39
you're able to build as part of your
00:49:42
board or even getting in there is very
00:49:44
very important. You know,
00:49:47
I I remember when I um joined and in
00:49:51
both I mean the private equity that any
00:49:54
of the boards that actually I've been on
00:49:56
and you are a bit trepidatious. You
00:49:58
don't know what to expect, you know, and
00:50:00
um
00:50:01
and
00:50:03
you go out you go in there
00:50:05
and um
00:50:06
you build the relationships.
00:50:10
A lot of things are not necessarily
00:50:13
agreed or rubber stamped at the board
00:50:14
meetings that I talked about. You have
00:50:16
committee meetings, you have you know,
00:50:17
and it's those sort of strong
00:50:18
interpersonal relationships, the
00:50:20
integrity you take.
00:50:22
You know, I say to people my integrity
00:50:24
walks before me. It is what precedes me,
00:50:26
you know.
00:50:27
And also a big thing also is the
00:50:32
humility you take into the boardroom.
00:50:35
For me I found that
00:50:37
I was in tutelage working with some
00:50:39
really seasoned, you know, professionals
00:50:42
that you learn things from. You know, I
00:50:44
talked about the different boards I
00:50:45
serve on, you know, the different
00:50:46
things. You're taking things, you see
00:50:49
some people you emulate the best. You
00:50:51
know, you the the the the the is
00:50:54
training
00:50:56
but there other things that you cannot
00:50:58
be trained for. There things that you
00:51:00
will experience will teach you.
00:51:02
>> [snorts]
00:51:02
>> So you go in there and you're in some
00:51:04
some sort of tutelage first, you know,
00:51:07
you don't go in there and say where's my
00:51:08
chairman role, you know, and this is
00:51:09
where I'm I'm here, you know, no.
00:51:11
No, there's um there's some element of
00:51:13
that and then you go in there and then
00:51:15
you sort of build your confidence, you
00:51:16
know, I worked and then eventually I
00:51:18
became a chair for committee, you know,
00:51:20
and then you know, you you then begin to
00:51:22
understand more about how the whole
00:51:23
thing comes together. And um the
00:51:26
relationships with the exec also matter
00:51:29
big time, massively.
00:51:33
Thank you very much. Thank you Nneka for
00:51:35
all of your contributions today. It's
00:51:36
been great to talk. Thank you. Thank you
00:51:38
for having me. It's been a pleasure.
00:51:43
It was great [music] to speak to Nneka
00:51:44
today um and she covered some really
00:51:47
interesting topics.
00:51:49
One of the topics that really stood out
00:51:50
to me was her discussion around AI.
00:51:53
She spoke about how it was a force for
00:51:56
good,
00:51:57
how she doesn't think that AI will reach
00:51:59
this peak and then bust. She thinks that
00:52:01
it may step back a little bit, but it
00:52:03
will always be there, and that the
00:52:05
governance and the way that an
00:52:06
organization runs is made more efficient
00:52:09
by good use of AI.
00:52:12
She also spoke quite a bit about the
00:52:15
modern boardroom and what that looks
00:52:16
like. She said that intimacy was needed
00:52:19
more with regards to understanding what
00:52:21
people need and what they want, that
00:52:24
kind of human factor. She said that
00:52:26
people decisions were always very
00:52:28
challenging. And she also spoke about
00:52:31
allyship with regards to diversity,
00:52:34
having someone there that is
00:52:36
speaking up for you, even if you're not
00:52:38
in the room, and allowing leadership to
00:52:42
[music] embrace that helps show those
00:52:45
people that sit within the organization
00:52:47
and external to the organization that
00:52:50
you really care and you really mean what
00:52:51
you say. And being able to do that, I
00:52:53
think, is the start of making change
00:52:55
across any organization with regards to
00:52:57
culture and diversity. That's it for
00:53:00
this episode of Grit in the Boardroom.
00:53:02
Thanks to Nneka for sharing her story
00:53:04
with honesty and insight, and thank you
00:53:06
for listening.
00:53:07
If you found this conversation valuable,
00:53:09
please follow the show and share it with
00:53:11
someone who leads through complexity.
00:53:13
Until next time, [music]
00:53:15
stay thoughtful, stay brave, and stay in
00:53:17
the room.
