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You cannot abdecate decision-making and that emotion you have with the organization to technology or AI. When
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you talk about emotional intelligence, it's not about the sort of touchy-feely.
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No, it's about having a finger on the pulse of your organization. Joining a board can be a daunting thing,
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especially if it's your first rodeo, your first board. Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm
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Erica Iliesan Norris. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Neka Abolekwe OBE. Neka, welcome
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to Grit in the Boardroom. Thank you. A pleasure to be here. Lovely to be here with you as well today. Um let's get
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into it. Thank you. If you could if you could quietly observe any boardroom, which board would you choose to step
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into or be a fly on the wall of and why? Hm, that's an interesting question.
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Um I serve on a variety of boards, you know, so governing and non-governing and advisory boards and um they all bring
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very different things to the table. If I was on a hop if I was to say, I would say possibly a listed company
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board. And because of the layers of governance and the guardrails that we find in
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listed company boards. Um it's always been quite an interesting one for me. Um I joined a listed company
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board um 4 years ago and the first year was pretty much getting my head around, you know, the
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governance and things and settling into it. You know, you usually have times where you settle into things.
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And um it's been incredibly insightful, really insightful. Just it's a lens into
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a different world, very different from an exact role, you know. And I found that the other boards I've been on are
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to a varying degree. But, you know, so if I would say the listed board was at one end of the spectrum and then the
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other sort of vary. But, it is it's been exposure into um the capital markets, You know, it's been
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exposure into a very different and would I say, um, regulated way of governance. What do you
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think you've taken from your other boards into that FTSE, um, listed environment? Oh, the other
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boards, I mean, the other boards are they are advisory boards, so international advisory boards.
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And you see, I would urge anyone who is looking to do a board career to sit on those kind of boards
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because the insights you get from those boards, the people you're on I mean,
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you're serving on the boards with, you know, these are international, so you
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have an international audience from so many disparate backgrounds. You know, so you're getting the best I mean, I'm on
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the on the the board of visitors for the Ashmolean and that is on that is the Ashmolean
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Museum, University of of Oxford. That gives me a rich insight, you know, I did my first degree in history and
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archaeology, so that is something that I know. That was really, really dear to me. So, all the objects digitizing the
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entire collections and all of that, so that's something different. And on the
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international advisory board for Cranfield School of Management and that is, um,
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people who have been through I mean, some some people are we're all Oh, are we not all alumni of Cranfield, but
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we've come from so many parts of the world from different disciplines, you know, on different boards at various
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stages of their careers and things like that. So, it's really been, you know,
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very, very useful useful, um, insights, useful, um, experience, useful, you know, understandings that I can take
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straight into my, you know, my my, um, boards on the private equity and the listed company boards, yeah. And for
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anyone that's interested in moving into that listed experience, sometimes it can
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be quite challenging and daunting, maybe, to step into those boards. How different have you found it to some of
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your other, like you say, international large boards? You see, what you're seeing is the tip
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of the iceberg, you see, and I mean with the with being on the listed board my board journey, I did an exec career
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right up until the management board of a company, Sopra Steria. And then when I left, I then went into
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the various institutes. So I did some work for the corporate governance institute. I did some work with the
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British Computer Society. And then I chaired the the nominations committee for ISACA, which
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is the the It's assurance governance and assurance and more into cyber into the cyber area. So I did things
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that were really within my area, but that was a really good way of cutting my teeth. And then transcended into
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different boards. And then I did my had my first board role with a private equity company,
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which was then small and had ambitions to grow, which is 5 years ago. And that has just been
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incredible. Halfway through that, I got my 2 years into that, I got my role with
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the listed company. So it's really been sort of a very gradual but a really good
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stepping stone into into that sort of into the getting to the listed boards and then sort of the exposure into
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public and private capital. >> [snorts] >> And then running organizations, you
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know. And with my perspectives on on governance, my perspectives are more around people, people-centric
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governance. And that is something that I hold very dear and something that was born from my research, my doctoral
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research into And that was My contribution was into the area of the governance of outsourcing. So that sort
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of put me into that area, which is very, very useful and very topical today. You
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know, we have with cyber, AI, you know, and boards and board intimacy. So it's really, really
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important here. And can you go into a bit more detail on that that people-centric governance?
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What does it mean? What What is What are you kind of saying there? Yes, so that is okay.
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>> [snorts] >> You see, I worked for I worked in IT services. So my my whole career or most
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of my career has been in IT services working for some of the large multinationals.
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And um I was a project manager. So, I started off as a project manager, which has been my pathway into the boardroom.
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So, it's not been finance. It hasn't been, you know, any of the commercial it
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was from my project management days. And um I was delivering projects, programs, you know, um global projects,
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really critical business-critical projects. And um and then I went into recovery, projects recovery and project
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assurance. And out of that um I started looking at what makes or what maketh successful
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projects. And then I started looking around and looking around in literature. And then I
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found the International Center for Project Management at Cranfield um School of Management, Cranfield
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University. And then um they were very interested in my my research topic. And then I started
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that. So, I was looking at success. And what happened was that throughout my four year I was doing this alongside my
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full-time role. So, I was looking at success factors within the delivery of technology projects, okay? So, working,
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you know, and then also effecting strategic change within the organization. So, global organizations,
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I was looking at the offshore onshore models, all of that. And what I found or what eventually came out of it was the
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thing I was looking at was governance. And it looked at people. So, people were the success factors for projects.
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Projects being the unit of analysis. So, you look at project governance. And then
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you look at operational governance. And then that also then boils into strategic, you know, or corporate
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governance. So, you find out that those companies that can align themselves or have that governance alignment starting
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from the person, you know, because you, me, and everybody else, you know, we come it's that collective. And how you
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then provide human oversight, you know, and then, you know, and how you realize the potential of your people within the
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organization. Now that it fast forward now in a board role, I mean, I am the the employee
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engagement director. You know, I chair responsible business committees, but that has been a golden thread throughout
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what I have done. So, it's always been with a focus and how you then engender
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that human capital to then begin to deliver and deliver your strategic objectives. So, it was it was quite an
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interesting study, the first that had been done in that area cuz I started as an analyst in the service in that same
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industry and then went from that into a project manager, senior project manager,
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program manager, um delivery director, and executive director, and now a non-executive director. So, so that has
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been my my thing. So, now I focus on um organizations that are um professional services,
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deliver service, and are people-oriented. And that has sort of kept me in good stead right through um to my OBE as
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well, which was given for um um for services to business. So, that has all sort of brought things um um
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um brought it all together for me. It's really interesting you talk about success factors with regards to that
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people-centric governance because there are so many people out there that wouldn't necessarily link the two. They
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would say governance is a back office function or it's just something about it's just
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how processes work and policies are written, but it's it's so much more than
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that, right? It's a strategic enabler. Absolutely a strategic enabler. And it's not you see okay, today we work
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in a regulated and some parts of the industry I work in are highly regulated. So, this isn't at odds with the
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regulation, but what we say is you need human oversight. And even with AI today, it's all around
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humans at the center of AI. So, AI makes the processes and and practices much more efficient, but then you have to
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have that human oversight and that human in the loop, even at the boardroom, you
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know, or in the boardroom. You have AI, yes, it can do all the summaries, it can
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do things, it can summarize meetings, it can it is absolute one of absolutely one
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of the things on the agenda and the strategic agenda, but you cannot abdecate decision-making
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and that emotion you have with the organization to technology or AI. You know, so it it really is that thing
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that holds people hold That's the way that holds things together, very much so. That's really interesting. There's
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definitely been some some thoughts around AI and AI directors and will we at some point have someone that sits
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There's AI that sits there and adds a an alternative perspective or a different
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voice. Um what what do you think? It is important. I mean, AI technological advancement in AI has outpaced even
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boardroom governance. It is hurtling. I mean, it is it is coming, okay? Is it a major threat? It depends on how
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you look at it. You see, technology in itself, as I said, is an enabler. Governance is the compass and people are
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the heart. So, when you look at it and that is exactly the intersection of where I sit.
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You see, so I look at the um from a technology lens. AI is here. AI is here to stay. AI is
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here to transform the way we do business, but in order for AI to be effective and of strategic value to any
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organization, it needs a complete cultural and transformational change within the organization.
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And that can be done together. So, you have to bring your people on board. The lifeblood that runs through any of the
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models is data. Data starts with you and me and all the the the the the processes, the
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practices. It informs all of that right up to the boardroom. The boardroom is there for holding or I
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mean I'm I'm talking about a listed company or even a a um a a private company.
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You're acting on behalf of your shareholders or your stakeholders. It could be investors, the shareholders, it
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could institutional, it could be retail, you know, investors. But you are there to then provide that
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oversight. Now, with AI, AI is here as I said is here to stay. Um there's been some fear around AI
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saying that AI is going too fast and it may I mean we we I mean it it may may be
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a bust like the dot-com bust. But because AI is such a galvanizing force, I don't believe that it will be a
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there will be a bust. I think it there may be a deflation or a sort of course correction where things settle. But I'm
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not one of those people who thinks that no no no there's going to be a bust and
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everything's all the investment we've done is all new Gucci. No, it is here to
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stay. There's a lot of capital and operational and cap cap cap capital expenditure as well as operational
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expenditure to get AI going. But it is and I can say that with AI it is a force for good. I mean it has other tentacles
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into cyber, it has other tentacles into other parts of the business. But as it stands and with the with in terms of the
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boardroom, you definitely need AI literacy and oversight in the boardroom especially [clears throat]
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to shape your strategy. Do you think that how do you manage I suppose governance before it kind of runs away
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with itself with regards to AI's that AI governance? Where do you where do you start because
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you do say AI is moving exceptionally quickly um and quicker than people can even, you
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know, try and catch up. How does an organization prioritize what's important with regards to AI
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governance and what isn't? You see, in the boards, you see, we talk we talk we
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often talk about the board room, yeah? And the board room is the highest governing body of any organization,
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okay? But you also have the committees as well. And the committees are the engine room
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of the board. And the committees now straddle both the board and the exec. And this is where a lot of the
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challenging and a lot of the conversations, I mean, that's why I say it's the engine room. Go on, okay?
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Now, it's incumbent on the board to understand that AI is here to stay and then set
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or put those guardrails around, okay? So, we have committees whereby we challenge the AI strategy as an example,
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okay? Because AI has come and as I said to you, it is outpacing business in itself. It is almost railroading us.
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And organizations have to stand up very quickly. And especially for execs, you know,
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execs, I mean, have to almost act like they know. And we as board directors as well have to either upskill ourselves
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very quickly or sometimes act like you know. But I've been fortunate to be around
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boards whereby it has been recognized that AI is really intrinsic or it's pivotal to our future direction.
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And for the future sustainability of the business. Also, in the environment in which we are, in
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which geopolitics plays a massive role in how organizations are run today, things like AI give us an
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it is the way because we have to in terms of things like profit and loss and all of that, it's not all around
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efficiencies. You know, it's all around organic growth. It's all around how then
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do you engender your human capital, your people again, to think innovatively, and then
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and then and to facilitate ourselves or grow ourselves out of this where we find ourselves today. You know,
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there's been there hasn't been very much growth. And the hope has been pinned on AI to
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get us out of there. So, how then do we square that circle? And how then do we then begin to build at scale solutions,
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technological or technology solutions, that really then grow the organization? So, when you talk about AI, you talk
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about the board, you talk about you can see the now the the threat about people.
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It's all around people. AI is there to amplify our minds, what we can do as people. You know, but it doesn't have
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the it doesn't have the ability to have that emotion and that decision-making.
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We take all of that, that processing power makes us much more quicker, better, faster, efficient, but then you
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have that human at the center to then make those decisions. So, for organizations today, we are
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organizations are having to sort of um to learn as they grow. You know, there's
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a lot of investment. Last year, there was a lot of investment in terms of proof of concepts and things like that.
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Now, we're deploying. You know, and we're moving at scale. So, things are moving along.
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I mean, the um the um the biggest growing companies in the states are all most of technology
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companies, you know, the Nasdaq and stuff. So, they are the growth engine. You know, so I think things will
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stabilize, but boards need to have the AI literacy, not just AI, cyber. Cyber is another big threat,
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because we use AI as a force for good. They AI to engender deep fakes as a source for bad to then topple what we
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kind of kind of things we do. So, it you see there's beginning you see that into
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the the linkage there there. So, it's really important that that we have that
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level of human oversight in the boardroom. And looking at the human kind of aspect, so as you say the the
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people-centric governance, how can organizations bring that into an organization? Perhaps they already have
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it. Um I always say that you know, governance is there whether it's being tended to or not. It it's there.
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Um how do you see it working to be that success factor? It's not easy, but it can be done.
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And it's a big cultural change within the organization, you know. I've seen it done very differently in in
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different organizations, but the moment you then begin to realize that your people are an asset, and you treat them
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as an asset, and you create an environment in which people can succeed, and you put the people agenda on the
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strategic arm. You see? And it is monitored, it is measured, you know? So, whatever is I
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always say to people whatever is on the revenue side of an a business, you know,
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if you're pitching, pitch it on the revenue side, you know? It will get attention. You know, it's not a drain on
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the business. It is part It is intrinsic to your strategy. If your strategy is to
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grow to become the biggest or the number one, your people are going to take you there. You know, if you have the right
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environment that engenders that and you make your people felt feel heard, and they feel heard and valued,
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you get that big you begin to get that critical mass, you know? And um I say and um I did an article with the
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um the the Governance Institute. It was called it is it's people first and the
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governance will follow. That was it that was the title of the article. And it talked about commitment being a
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very strong currency, you know, and almost trumping um compliance. It's not at odds with compliance, but
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when you have a committed workforce, and you have people who are committed and will put their chest to the wheel of an
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organization, the sky's the limit. I have seen it work in practice. I have seen cultural measures and even employee
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engagement programs every I mean every board I sit on I'm I'm quite vocal about
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this. I'm I'm I'm known for this. The You see, you're putting the employee
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engagement programs, the pulse surveys, you know, all these things are not just tick boxes. Yes. Your employees will
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tell you where the pain points are. You know, modern governance today, the modern boardroom calls for more intimacy
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between the board and the organization. You know, and it's that layer between that and it's how you manage
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that layer, and how you then ensure that it bubbles up to the committees, whether
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it's the responsible business committee, whether it's the audit and you you you
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have the oversight for risk, you know, you have audit and risk, whether the exact are remunerated in a way that then
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engenders you know, so it it's actually has tentacles into the remuneration.
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And then that also then has cross, you know, touch points with the responsible business and all these kind of things.
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So, it's quite an interesting mix at the board level. You asked me about the FTSE board. You know, it's
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quite a complex, but it it does make sense, you know, and when it is run well, and when it is recognized, and
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when it is then cascaded down through the organization, and the feedback comes back upwards through the organization as
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well, you have a meeting point whereby you're not just a board there to tick
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boxes, but you're there to listen and effect change. And this is where influence, which is a big I mean is is a
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big thing in the board, then shines through. Who should take ultimate accountability and responsibility for
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the governance of an organization, for implementing this? As I say, it starts with the unit, the person.
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You it is each and every one of us. I mean, if you go back to the the the origins of governance and stuff, it's
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all it's for the people, of the people, by the people, that kind of thing. But,
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within it is everybody. It is the responsibility of everyone. It's not the preserve of, let's say, HR or anything.
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We have to take individual accountability for our organizations, for showing up, for showing up as best
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as we can, the organizations for creating that environment in which we can show up, and we can be our best
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selves and do well. And the board also for then owning that, you know. So, the corporate
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governance is owned by the board. Okay? The operational governance is owned I mean or we hold the executive
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account. The board is held to account for the corporate governance by the shareholders, reporting to the
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shareholders. You know, we have the responsibility of appointing the executive the the the executive
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directors. But, also the operational governance is then you know, there's a line there's an alignment between the
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corporate governance, operational governance, and if that is then then that goes down to projects and
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everything. Because for every single project or program, I go back to my project management days. Projects
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deliver um output. Programs deliver outcomes. Those outcomes inform your strategy.
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So, the projects, the programs are all inextricably linked to the strategy of that organization. You don't have
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orphaned projects. So, when you then begin to think about it, then you then begin to think about even in in project
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financing and stuff. You do you or you're doing all the management accounting. You're then doing the
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financial accounting, which is then to the which is looking backwards. The management accounting
00:23:05
looks forward. You're forecasting, you're budgeting, and things like that.
00:23:08
And those kind of things are the key decision makers for the board to then use to then inform the markets and then
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our shareholders. So, it's all that whole thing that goes through, you know,
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so it's it is very important to understand that, yeah. Mhm. And do you think there's ever a time where you can
00:23:25
over-govern an organization? So, too much bureaucracy, 100 million committees to agree to sign off
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someone's expenses. Have you experienced that before? >> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
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>> You look exhausted just thinking about it. >> even as I mean even when I was um during
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my as part of my career, you know, there is something and that can be I mean that
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can I mean you talk about analysis and paralysis but so paralysis by analysis, you know, that that those sort of
00:23:53
things. Those kind of things come from too much governance, you know, and this is where I talk about in that in the
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article I talked about um um um um with the governance institute, I talked about something to do with
00:24:04
lightning controls and giving human oversight, but not in heavily I mean not in highly regulated industries. So,
00:24:11
where you have professional services and things like that. But you see it's it's
00:24:15
a function of many many many things, you know, we have regulation and for a long time I mean regulation
00:24:22
has almost been seen I mean that there there's some quarters where it's seen as
00:24:25
almost punitive. You see, whereby regulation I mean of course you have policy, then you have
00:24:31
legislation, and then you have regulation, okay? So, the regulators are there to enforce the law and we have to
00:24:37
act in deference to regulation, okay? But sometimes and I see this happening and I hope that I mean we will reform
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the way we um just in terms of how we regulate business because sometimes it can dull
00:24:52
one's creativity. You see, where you when you're working in a very black and white I mean it's
00:24:56
it's on and off is binary. But when you then begin to stray into the areas, the gray areas, whereby
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there's a need for innovation, there's a need and always as we talked about it,
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um what do you call technology and technological advancement may an innovation, innovation in its truest
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sense, may also outpace regulation. So, regulation is tracking innovation. Now, those gray areas, where how well
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how do you play in that? You know, look at cyber as an example. In companies I've I've advised and I've
00:25:32
been in companies that have been hit by cyber. It is it takes its toll and the emotional toll on an organization. I
00:25:40
cannot tell you. Spare a thought for the execs because they are there working. But what happens sometimes is
00:25:48
people don't realize that you have to go out, especially for listed companies,
00:25:51
with things that are factually correct. This is more, okay? Yes, so and then, you know, and then in
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doing that, you have to be circumspect about how you go out to the market. Your people at the front end are there
00:26:06
fighting your or working with your customers who are panicking, rightly so. You know, but that circumspection then
00:26:14
breeds uncertainty. And sometimes, you know, you're not And then in the absence
00:26:18
of saying things, of course, people will make things up. But that is in a sense regulation then almost dulling the
00:26:24
capability of our being able to think our way out of a critical situation. You see, so this is sometimes where But
00:26:32
I think that things are I think the regulate the regulators' position is softening now because what is happening
00:26:38
again is that we now have enough companies. It's not about an if, it's almost a when.
00:26:43
It would be foolhardy of any board to think that you're not going to be hit by
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cyber. But now there is it there are enough organizations that have been hit and I
00:26:51
think the regulators are now understanding that, "Listen, you need to step back at some point and let you know
00:26:56
let and let the organization understand where it is." And this is to my point
00:27:00
whereby good practice informs policy, then policy then informs legislation, and then it becomes regulation. So, you
00:27:08
see that whole feedback loop whereby you are building that excellence into the into the practice, the process, and how
00:27:16
you safeguard companies. You're absolutely right. And with with the MAR regulations, the market abuse
00:27:22
regulations, there's there are so many times that I've been in corporates, in
00:27:28
organizations, listed organizations obviously that have to comply, financial services, and they are almost hamstrung
00:27:35
to need to say something because the the monkey on their shoulder essentially is
00:27:42
the after the event, if the share price moves significantly, then they could end
00:27:46
up with um an investigation from the financial regulator coming in and asking why they
00:27:53
didn't release an announcement earlier, coupled with the fact that as you say,
00:27:56
going out to the market and saying something they're not 100% sure of equally could do the same the other way.
00:28:02
Um absolutely, it's so difficult. >> It's so difficult, but then you have the
00:28:07
regulators there, you have your shareholders, your institutional and your retail shareholders, you have your
00:28:12
employees, you have your suppliers. It's a whole ecosystem, you know, and you're
00:28:17
right in the middle of that trying to balance things out, trying to hold that tension. And it's there for the board to
00:28:24
also support the execs. I mean, I have enough respect for any organization and and and execs that um um um that have
00:28:31
been hit and the amount of work that goes on in the background that people do not see.
00:28:36
You know, it is it is almost it is commendable. And off the back of that as well, we are we we're in choppy waters
00:28:42
now, and um you know, there are times when we do good things, you know, there good
00:28:47
things done and with across the business, we're moving the business forward and one thing can happen that
00:28:53
steals a headline and it drowns out all the good stuff you're doing. So, you're
00:28:57
you're you're consistently or you're continuously then sort of morale
00:29:02
building, you know, trying to find that good story, that good win, that thing. You know, it's it's it's it's it's it's
00:29:08
it's challenging times but very interesting times at the same time, yeah. Mhm, absolutely. I was really keen
00:29:13
to start up this podcast for exactly the reason that you just said about bringing
00:29:18
to light how challenging it is because from afar, depending on the level of communication and sometimes depending on
00:29:23
the type of organization, leaders sometimes can, sometimes can't explain why things happened in a certain way and
00:29:32
taking employees as a stakeholder group for instance, if there is mass redundancy or there are particular
00:29:38
divisions that are sold or liquidated, whatever it might be, I've heard conversations with those type
00:29:45
of employees saying, "They didn't care. I was just a number on a spreadsheet and
00:29:50
it was just, oh, no, we don't need them. Bye-bye. Move on." And I know from being
00:29:55
the other side of it in boardrooms that that isn't the case and although the
00:29:59
decision may well need to be made, it's made with humanity and with thought and
00:30:06
there is consideration the majority of the time for the communication style and how that's
00:30:11
spoken about and there is sadness as well even within boardrooms that I've been in of feeling either personal
00:30:20
failure or company failure or just disappointing whoever those people are and I think that's really important
00:30:26
point that you just brought out there. You know, it's never easy and we can stand in judgement and I look back on my
00:30:32
career and I look at the times when I would think, you know, delivering and I've been a a
00:30:40
seen my um some teams crash and burn as well. You question what management are doing.
00:30:46
You question how things are are going and you say to you and that is me saying to myself,
00:30:52
you know, if I was in a position of authority and influence, I would do things entirely different.
00:30:58
Fast forward today, that is still my watchword. It is still incumbent upon me as a board director and um even as a
00:31:08
just as another human being to spare thought for the next person, you know, and how and for the employees as well.
00:31:15
And know that um when we do things, there are human casualties, you know, and when when and we're we're
00:31:21
now in times where it's all around the efficiencies and all around um how well
00:31:28
and um how well we can generate either the revenue or the the top or the bottom line.
00:31:34
And it's that thing in the middle, you know, where we then begin to take cost out and stuff. It has I um real,
00:31:41
you know, implications for people. It's definitely a bit of a a story or a narrative going on at the moment um that
00:31:48
successful technology businesses are ruthless, they're cutthroat, they're all
00:31:53
about the money, uh particularly some of the big Silicon Valley players. >> [snorts]
00:31:58
>> Do you think that they have to be or maybe it's even the perception they
00:32:02
either created themselves or that is reality, but do you think that that is the only way to create high-performing
00:32:10
culture and team? No, I don't absolutely not. It's not the only way. You know, it
00:32:15
is a way. I do not subscribe to that way, but I believe in doing good business, okay, profitable business.
00:32:25
But profitable business at what cost? Yes. >> this is where exactly conscientious
00:32:31
business comes into it as well. Profitable business at the cost of your employees.
00:32:37
There are times when needs must and when you find that you expend your expenditure, your spending as much as
00:32:43
your and your revenue, you have investors. So, you then have to These are decisions that are all taken in the
00:32:49
boardroom. You know, so what do we do in the best interest of the organization? And there are times when organizations
00:32:56
are indeed inefficient and you know, you know, inefficient. And we have to find the efficiencies across the piece. This
00:33:03
is not the preserve of the or this has happened or I mean I've I've I've grown
00:33:08
up in the technology industry. You know, from one different I mean in different regions and stuff. And it's a cyclical
00:33:14
thing as well. When times are good, you know, they're employing en masse. We
00:33:18
don't remember that bit when organizations are employing en masse, you know. And when times are bad or when
00:33:24
we have to, you know, we we were almost on the brink of a recession. You see and um we are still, you know,
00:33:32
interest rates are coming down, you know, inflation as well. You know, it's not quite there as yet.
00:33:36
You know, so we have these and we have all these business challenges that we need to do. So, sometimes it is
00:33:42
necessary, but it's how it's also done as well. You know, when it when it when
00:33:47
it is done in a way that is that takes the the um the employees into account as well.
00:33:53
You know, and things are explained or then they're cascaded or you have those
00:33:57
you have the lines of communication, you know, and very clear lines of communication and it's also done fairly.
00:34:04
You see, not at the expense of one or disproportionately or things like that. When it is done fairly.
00:34:11
Onto people, um you know, it's um it's it can be it's it's not an easy
00:34:17
thing. It's not an easy thing for the board. It's not an easy thing for the
00:34:20
exec, you know, it's not easy for the employees as well. But organizations have to succeed and
00:34:26
organizations are there for a purpose. You know, to deliver services, to deliver good business, you know, how we
00:34:33
ranked and how we measured on against our success. What is that success predicated on? You know, so it's it's
00:34:40
all these things. So, it's not just a very simple thing whereby you say they're ruthless. I mean, and you know
00:34:45
what? If there are unscrupulous companies like that that yeah, they may be, but I certainly do not agree with
00:34:50
that um mode of management, not at all. It's also the approach that I've kind of
00:34:57
always thought about that it isn't necessary to become a non-human to just see see people as
00:35:06
numbers, whoever they are, whichever role they occupy, whether they whatever stakeholder group they might sit in.
00:35:13
I think that that human bit of it is really important. >> It is. It is. And that feedback as well.
00:35:19
You see You see, we think um you know, when you talk about the emotional intelligence, it's not about
00:35:25
the sort of touchy-feely. No, it's about having a finger on the pulse of your
00:35:29
organization, understanding the sentiment from your employees. And [snorts] that is such a great
00:35:37
insight into your organization and the pulse, you know, the pulse of the organization. Do you have a finger on
00:35:43
the pulse of that and your people? You know, and how well do you then respond to that? You know, this that that is a
00:35:50
top table discussion. It is. Without your workforce, you're nothing. Yeah. Indeed.
00:35:57
You know, so it's not it's no longer it is actually almost a strategic imperative. You know, as well that also
00:36:04
bleeds into things like diversity, things, you know, it's it's it's all of
00:36:07
those things in the mix. You know, and how then do you then build that competitive advantage?
00:36:14
You know, because it's a highly competitive world out there. It doesn't necessarily need to be
00:36:19
cutthroat. You know, but you can be competitive and you can run business in a conscientious way. And if you're
00:36:26
purpose-led as well, if you have those, you know, those values, those core values that you instill, not just you
00:36:33
model those values at the board level, but you it makes sure that you hold your executive accountable and they they
00:36:38
exhibit those values or those behaviors, and that is cascaded down to the organization, that is how cultural
00:36:45
change is is born. And then you get the feedback from, you know, so you cascade down and you get that feedback, you
00:36:52
know, and then you begin to act on that. It is incredibly powerful when done well. And you just mentioned diversity.
00:36:58
What do you see as diversity when you're talking about the boardroom? I think it's a key strategic enabler.
00:37:05
And I think it's um it is it is a competitive advantage. It's those differences
00:37:12
that become an asset to the company. You see, now just in in today's world where there
00:37:19
is a where it's highly competitive, when is it ever good to have a proportion of um of your employee
00:37:29
[clears throat] base disadvantaged? When would you not look to harness the potential
00:37:38
in that, you know? So, whether it is females in the boardroom, whether it is ethnic minorities in the boardroom, that
00:37:45
is what you can see, that is what is optically visible, but there's much more to it. And I say to
00:37:53
people on a board and I would I mean I would love to get to a point whereby those differences are celebrated. And I
00:37:59
say to people um a world I want a world in which it would be that I'm a technology,
00:38:05
governance, you know, sustainability expert who just happens to be a black woman.
00:38:10
But there in, you know, so would you then discount that because I look different?
00:38:16
And don't get me wrong, you know, it is it's never easy because um um I know when I join I mean organizations
00:38:26
when I join you know you you you you a lot of times I'm the lone ranger there.
00:38:31
And um and I know I'm being assessed and I know and you know you you you want to get to
00:38:37
the point whereby you are there in your substantive right sitting shoulder to shoulder with the
00:38:43
next person. And what happens invariably is that um people then they begin they get past it
00:38:48
quite quickly, you know, and then you're there as a substantive board director
00:38:53
who has who has value to add. Um and my race or my gender should not have a bearing on what I have between my ears
00:39:03
or the intellectual capital that I bring to the table. Now transcend um transpose
00:39:08
that into the organization whereby you have a whole you know um a range of people from different parts of the
00:39:15
world, different protected characteristics. And how that can be pulled together into
00:39:22
such a powerful force for good. So we're not looking at our differences but we're
00:39:27
looking at the strength that the collective bring to the table. And those organizations that can
00:39:35
integrate that seamlessly into the governance, into the processes, into the practices, and into the um
00:39:43
the the framework for how organizations work are those that will succeed. >> [snorts]
00:39:49
>> You know, it's it's it's it it is a very powerful force. How can people avoid
00:39:56
that I suppose like you say making someone feel like they're a box tick. I assume
00:40:02
that the reason that this continues is the fact that people don't know any different not that they proactively go
00:40:07
out of their way to be like that. So what do you think people can do practically to make people feel
00:40:12
supported? >> Okay, there's a lot of discomfort around it. You know, even talking about it
00:40:16
there's a little bit of discomfort around it, but um one of the biggest things for me is
00:40:21
around allyship. And not just allyship in terms of speaking, so allyship in its quintessential, you know, in its its um
00:40:31
um definition is yes, I mean, that lending your voice to that person who isn't there and stuff
00:40:37
and you know, supporting all of that. But in speaking up for others as well. You know,
00:40:45
if you see things that are going wrong, if you know that you have a really good colleague who has worked twice as hard,
00:40:53
who is working hard but is overlooked for promotion, what stops Why when is it ever acceptable to say yes, I mean, this
00:41:00
person is there and then yes, I'm being promoted and that's fine. When is it
00:41:03
ever acceptable? I'll take that further and I'll take that to the organizational
00:41:07
level. When you begin to bake in practices and build a culture that is predicated on
00:41:15
allyship and you encourage that and you model that at the board level, you don't know the amount of people who
00:41:22
have come up to me and saying just seeing a black female at the board level just optically alone gives me hope that
00:41:29
I can aspire. You can see what you you know, you can be what you can see. So, if you then begin to build a system
00:41:38
whereby it is acceptable to then and it is actually rewarded, you know, and you see people as your allies
00:41:46
and you know that it is a fair and this goes back to the and the values of the organization, you know, your personal
00:41:52
values, those intrinsic values and then you begin to then foster that across the organization,
00:41:59
you know, it's a big signal. It's a massive signal. So, when you talk about
00:42:03
people who are diverse and you tick box, you know, and I mean, I sit I serve on boards and I'm the I'm yes, I'm the the
00:42:11
only black female, but I can tell you that yes, I am, but I have earned that position.
00:42:16
You know, I have gone I have been through the you know, the the levels and you find that and I'm not alone. There
00:42:23
are plenty of me out there. You know, who are just looking for that opportunity.
00:42:27
And then the moment we begin to change our mindset, but it's for people like
00:42:32
myself who are now there to then show and to open that door and to hold it open for the others and to be that
00:42:40
advocate as well for others. You see, and not just others that look like me leveling that playing field.
00:42:48
Something that we that that doesn't get enough attention is we all we ultimately look
00:42:55
at the ascending voices, you know, the voices that you talk about, but think about the the dissenting voices as well.
00:43:01
You know, those tell you things as well whereby you can then get to that point of almost coexistence where you have
00:43:08
almost opposing diametrically opposing forces and then you find that middle ground,
00:43:13
that center ground because what it is is not about displacing others. It's not a
00:43:18
zero-sum game for one to gain, the other must lose. No, why can't the tide rise
00:43:23
for all? You see, that [clears throat] is a powerful situation. That is potential
00:43:28
within an organization. That is your competitive advantage. You see, so when you when when the tide
00:43:35
rises for all or when you build equitable systems that that that then engender inclusivity.
00:43:43
You see, so there's something about diversity. Yes, you get the bumps on seats. You get yes, you know, and
00:43:48
diversity is not always visible optically visible. But the big thing there is inclusion.
00:43:55
And then how do you then begin to build an inclusive ecosystem within your organization? Powerful when you get it
00:44:03
right, but it starts from having those conversations. You know, that initial conversation and
00:44:09
when you then signal that you are open to having those conversations can be such a massive force for good and for
00:44:17
that momentum as well. Yeah. That's really powerful. And I think that what you said would be so useful for so
00:44:26
many leaders to start to build [snorts] a different world. It's definitely Yeah, there's there's so many aspects of
00:44:36
what you've said that I can experience myself. A lady once told me when I gave a talk,
00:44:44
I was talking about my upbringing and my background and the fact that I came from
00:44:48
an underprivileged working class background and had a very difficult education kind of process in order to be
00:44:56
able to just fight to even just be able to get into school and to be able to do all those things and kind of move
00:45:02
through the the education system. But one lady did say to me when I spoke about my past experience, she was not a
00:45:10
white woman and she said, "But you have white privilege." And it was probably the first time that
00:45:16
I really thought she's right. She's right. I I may not appreciate that that's what
00:45:24
I have, but I do. And I think that's the piece that I have people need to reflect and I hadn't even
00:45:31
thought about it. I don't wake up every morning and look at my skin color and
00:45:34
think, "Look what color I am." It's just didn't even occur to me.
00:45:40
Um, but I think when somebody calls you out on something and yeah, it felt really uncomfortable at the time because
00:45:45
I kind of thought, "Oh my gosh, I've just offended loads of people more by not identifying that than what
00:45:51
I'd actually said." But yeah, I think people need to open their eyes and
00:45:55
realize that the world is how it is. And like you say, allyship is is a really strong part of it. See, but to that
00:46:02
point as well, you see, I don't wake up either thinking that I'm a black woman
00:46:06
and I'm disadvantaged. I think I'm a human being and I go in there, you know,
00:46:10
in my own right as a human and why not? If not, why not? This is not a limiting factor. If anything, this is my this is
00:46:17
me. This is my superpower. This is this is Neca. You know, so it's it's a it's a
00:46:22
core part of me. You see, it's it it it is. So, when it is not or when it is a seen
00:46:31
as a limiting factor or when it is when you're made to feel that it's a limiting
00:46:36
factor, it can be really soul destroying, you know, especially when you are um you're you're you are a contributor.
00:46:45
You have a lot to contribute, you know, and you have just as much or maybe even more than the next person to contribute,
00:46:51
but you're discounted on factors that have no bearing on the intellectual capital you bring to the table.
00:46:59
You know. Yeah, absolutely. Um and to close out, what would you say would be some valuable things for
00:47:09
somebody to bring to the table if they're joining a board, maybe as a non-exec director, maybe a different
00:47:16
sector or just a different step out, maybe it's their first um role. Maybe in the first 90 days, what would
00:47:24
you say that they should really be thinking about and um working on? And joining a board can be a daunting thing.
00:47:31
I mean, it it is daunting to the even to the most confident and especially if it's your first rodeo, your first board
00:47:37
and stuff and um you know, it's I would say almost be kind to yourself. You will
00:47:46
wobble. You know, any board or any position I've gone into, you know, the the first few
00:47:52
days you're trying to Not even the first few days. I mean, the as you say, the
00:47:55
ninth first 90 days or whatever, you're finding your feet. You're understanding
00:47:59
your your building chemistry with others. Those relationships are really important and will put you in stand you
00:48:05
in good stead moving on forward. But, I would say I mean it's not even a but, it's something that you bring your
00:48:13
skills to the table. The modern boards these days or the way the boards are evolving
00:48:21
commercial all the experience you've had as an or in your in your um commercial or your exact career
00:48:30
comes to bear bring that to bear as well. You know, it's important you have relevant skills. Boards I mean they you
00:48:38
know each um on the okay I got on the boards you you bring a particular um expertise or discipline to the board,
00:48:47
okay? So, it may be HR in my own it but it was all my operational um experience, my technology experience,
00:48:55
my governance experience. Others may be in finance, others may be in human resources, commercial, all those kind of
00:49:00
things. But, it is for the right board it is relevant. So, go in there step up to the plate
00:49:09
and bring your skills forth. You know, it's um I would say I mean and also on the
00:49:16
softer side of things the higher you go in an organization the more exposed you you are to the
00:49:26
elements of politics. And at the board level it becomes a bit more sophisticated and a bit more nuanced.
00:49:34
Okay? So, the relationships you you build or you're able to build as part of your
00:49:42
board or even getting in there is very very important. You know, I I remember when I um joined and in
00:49:51
both I mean the private equity that any of the boards that actually I've been on
00:49:56
and you are a bit trepidatious. You don't know what to expect, you know, and
00:50:00
um and you go out you go in there and um you build the relationships. A lot of things are not necessarily
00:50:13
agreed or rubber stamped at the board meetings that I talked about. You have committee meetings, you have you know,
00:50:17
and it's those sort of strong interpersonal relationships, the integrity you take.
00:50:22
You know, I say to people my integrity walks before me. It is what precedes me, you know.
00:50:27
And also a big thing also is the humility you take into the boardroom. For me I found that
00:50:37
I was in tutelage working with some really seasoned, you know, professionals that you learn things from. You know, I
00:50:44
talked about the different boards I serve on, you know, the different things. You're taking things, you see
00:50:49
some people you emulate the best. You know, you the the the the the is training but there other things that you cannot
00:50:58
be trained for. There things that you will experience will teach you. >> [snorts]
00:51:02
>> So you go in there and you're in some some sort of tutelage first, you know,
00:51:07
you don't go in there and say where's my chairman role, you know, and this is
00:51:09
where I'm I'm here, you know, no. No, there's um there's some element of
00:51:13
that and then you go in there and then you sort of build your confidence, you know, I worked and then eventually I
00:51:18
became a chair for committee, you know, and then you know, you you then begin to
00:51:22
understand more about how the whole thing comes together. And um the relationships with the exec also matter
00:51:29
big time, massively. Thank you very much. Thank you Nneka for all of your contributions today. It's
00:51:36
been great to talk. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
00:51:43
It was great [music] to speak to Nneka today um and she covered some really interesting topics.
00:51:49
One of the topics that really stood out to me was her discussion around AI. She spoke about how it was a force for
00:51:56
good, how she doesn't think that AI will reach this peak and then bust. She thinks that
00:52:01
it may step back a little bit, but it will always be there, and that the governance and the way that an
00:52:06
organization runs is made more efficient by good use of AI. She also spoke quite a bit about the
00:52:15
modern boardroom and what that looks like. She said that intimacy was needed more with regards to understanding what
00:52:21
people need and what they want, that kind of human factor. She said that people decisions were always very
00:52:28
challenging. And she also spoke about allyship with regards to diversity, having someone there that is
00:52:36
speaking up for you, even if you're not in the room, and allowing leadership to
00:52:42
[music] embrace that helps show those people that sit within the organization and external to the organization that
00:52:50
you really care and you really mean what you say. And being able to do that, I think, is the start of making change
00:52:55
across any organization with regards to culture and diversity. That's it for
00:53:00
this episode of Grit in the Boardroom. Thanks to Nneka for sharing her story with honesty and insight, and thank you
00:53:06
for listening. If you found this conversation valuable, please follow the show and share it with
00:53:11
someone who leads through complexity. Until next time, [music] stay thoughtful, stay brave, and stay in
00:53:17
the room.