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where things collapse is where there hasn't been enough attention to really making things a tacit more explicit,
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more understood, more codified. We can get trapped by by sort of success in many ways. We're all in this together. I
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think anything we do to avoid this sense that there's that kind of driver passenger dynamics.
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Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm Erica Ilas Norris and today's conversation explores how purpose
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becomes progress and how leaders can build meaning that lasts across generations.
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My guest is Sherah Javan Obbe, a trusted advisers to CEOs and leadership teams worldwide. As founder and executive
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chairman of Intrinsic Labs and leader of the generational success lab at Oxford University's SIAD Business School, he
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helps organizations build purposeful strategies, enduring cultures, and authentic intergenerational
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collaboration. His clients include Oxford and Cambridge universities, Teach for All, L'Oreal, Shopify, and the NHS,
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and many more. Shareth is the author of Intrinsic and Inflection, is now writing
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Inheritable, a novel exploring intergenerational leadership. Previously, he founded and led Stir
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Education and Teaching Leaders, reaching over 10 million children across 40,000 schools globally. Outside work, Sherath
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is an internationally competitive pickle ball player and a student of wine. He lives in London with his wife and two
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teenage sons. Shareath, welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. >> Thanks, Erica.
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>> So, to start with, uh, you often speak about futureproofing lasting success.
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What does that really mean in practice for leaders and organizations today? Yeah, I think one of the challenges,
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Erica, I don't know if you would agree from your boardroom experience is our
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time frames are quite short and I see, you know, even CEOs of organizations, you know, I think a lot about the the
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second hand, the minute hand and the hourhand and so much of the pressure today is on the second hand, the minute
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hand >> rather than thinking about the hourhand and what is that long-term direction,
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purpose, um the place that the leaders really want to go to help people get to places they wouldn't have got to
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otherwise. That's my definition of leadership. And what's been coming out
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from that is also not just within a generation, but also taking the long road and thinking what that means
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crossgenerationally as well. >> And how do you think leaders can support with that crossgenerational work?
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>> I think part of it is trying to really find disruptive ideas that really will
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shape um shape the future, will shape that better world. So I've been lucky to
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work with about 30 or 40 really exciting organizations. they they can be um ventures, they can be part of larger
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organizations um startups, you name it, that are trying to build a different future um in terms of how kids, for
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example, experience the world in terms of how young people enter the workforce. All of those kinds of themes as well. So
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part of the work is really helping that that disruptive community thrive, flourish, and be even more distinctive
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and be more successful. The other side of work I find myself doing is helping existing organizations that have scale
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already, large corporates, large foundations, um, public sector organization like the NHS
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>> think about how they can actually manage and navigate that intergenerational
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transition better so that understanding collaboration can happen better between generations. I sort of think we need new
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new ideas, new ways of doing things coming into the world, but we also need those who've already got power and skill
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to reshape what they do at the same time. And when you look at boards um in today's society, do you think that
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they're prepared for the expectations of that kind of Gen Z kind of investors,
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let's say, and employees alike? >> Yeah, I think boards are in a very tricky place right now overall. I've had
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a chance the fortune to work with many of them. Um I mostly work with leadership teams and CEOs, but of course
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the board is an important factor and almost always our work tends to >> interface with that really important
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element. I still think board I know your work is all about this Erica but um it's
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still very much a defensive sort of play. It feels very much about mitigating risk often is often the
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mindset. >> Yes, >> it's quite cautious. Um >> it can often be quite short-term. That's
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something that really surprised me observing some of the boards I was able to work with. I thought that the idea of
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uh being a steward in that way was to have that long-term stewardship that would futureproof really an organization
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two to many years maybe decades maybe centuries ahead. But often the pressure is on quarterly results or short-term
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performance. And I think it's an interesting question of how leadership team CEOs and and boards work together
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better to to shift that culture. I think as well >> yeah I think sometimes boards can be
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very focused on as you say the short term because that's what they're incentivized that's the performance
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metrics and therefore that directs travel. How do you think leaders can help look at that longer term view? How
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do you help um organizations do that? So being super honest, I often take them out of the board structure for a little
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while to give them a safe space often three or six months where they can explore different realities.
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>> I think with the with a board um dynamics even when there's the closest
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relationships I'd say between a board chair and CEO and I say this having had
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an excellent board chair myself when I was a a CEO um over my years of leading um there's still a performative element
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of that game, right? You're still trying to show that you're in control. You've
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got it sorted. It's quite hard to be vulnerable if you're a CEO. hard to
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express doubt, not even doubt, but even express uncertainty and I'm not quite
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sure these are three crossroads I could take and I'm not sure which way to go.
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That can often make us here look what's a her or him look weak, indecisive and
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so on. And that says a lot about how we think about leadership um and some of our sort of mental models about it and
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how maybe mism they are but that's it is what it is. So often taking CEOs and
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leadership teams away for a little while. I don't mean physically all the time, but give them that safe space to
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reflect, think about what they really see the problem being in their sector or industry. Help them think about what
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makes their perspective unique and different. And from them crafting a direction that really feels authentic
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and distinctive to them rather than just copying what every everyone else is doing. And around halfway through that
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process, usually a couple of months in where they've gained some confidence,
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feeling good about things, we often bring in the board for an early pass to say how does this feel and really want
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to make sure they shape it of course and play a very very proactive role. But I have had fun just giving a bit of of
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neutral space can be quite helpful in in that regard actually. >> And why does so many leadership teams
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they seem to really struggle with planning for success beyond their own tenure? Why do you think that might be
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and what can they do to kind of overcome that barrier? >> And I say this, you know, myself as a
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founder CEO and it's very tricky. We entangle ourselves, I think the therapist would say, in mesh ourselves
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with with uh, you know, with the organizations we we lead. That's it's very hard to separate those things. I
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think one of the things I found the best CEOs and leadership teams doing is say,
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look, um, I'm here to take the organization to a place it wouldn't have got to otherwise. That's my role. I'm
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going to take it from A to B, but I know someone else who needs to take it from B
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to C, C to D. There going to be many more chapters. Think of it almost like a novel. Um, as a result, I need to create
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the foundational scaffolding of culture in particular that allows us to keep reinventing, keep being relevant. And
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that kind of lifelong learning muscle is is really important, especially in this
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day and age where things are changing so fast. How do we really try and build that culture and where people are open
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to being adaptive to to be reflective to be experiment experimental where needed?
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>> Um, so I think there's a lot CEOs can do to prepare. They may not know what the
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next few chapters of the book might be, but they can set almost the chapter outline well by creating that cultural
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foundation and and role modeling and showing them they themselves don't have
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all the answers. They're trying to search and discover things, find that from different people. M um and there
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are writers as well that talk as well about seasons. So they say you might be a winter CEO or a summer CEO depending
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if you're talking about the highs and the lows and they very much are very good in certain situations when you're
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riding on a very high high or perhaps you know it's a turnaround situation. There are many people that kind of focus
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in on that sort of approach and they have that level of experience. How how can someone be, I suppose, open to being
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challenged, but also be self-aware enough to work out and establish where they fit best and where their skills
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are. >> I think No, I think it's really powerful the sort of the seasons metaphor, the
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winter summer stuff. We've got global warming happening, whatever happens. And
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I'm almost more interested in sort of um how to see us build that long-term muscle where they can think, you know,
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much more strategically, much more with a 10 20 year horizon towards what they're doing. So they may be in a
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turnaround but they're thinking about okay how do I not just get us back to where we were but actually build towards
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the future or they're really thriving and flourishing and think how can they
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get you know much more u have much more impact in the world be much more influential
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make a real difference to our customers or or clients or communities whatever sector they're in. So I sort of feel
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like there's that seasonality piece but there's also that long-term um you know existential questions that I
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think every every business or organization should try and try and focus on. M and where do you think those
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questions should be asked and by whom? >> Good question. I think I think ultimately the the C and the leadership
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team are accountable for it. I think boards can play an important um senseing and stewardship role, but there's always
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an asymmetry of information of of involvement as well, right? They're just much more into the the day-to-day there.
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I think a lot of it comes from discovery and searching and being able to ask good
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questions, being much more curious about the world, asking their customers that the communities are impacting their
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employees of course um what what they can do more really as well and being that kind of really thinking about being
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being observant. So if I take an example, um I've been working with King's College London, um obviously a
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really premier uh global research university. There's been about£100 million pounds of research funding
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coming through for for really important areas around global health and there's
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been a big shock to that system with some of the the aid cuts around the world and and so on. So what the
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university said is look, we've got all this funding. Are we really pulling it
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together in the best way possible? Right now each researcher each department is going off on a its own sort of separate
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path if you like as well. How can we be more than the sum of our parts and how can we create a they've created an
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institute and there's a really inspiring director there called Alia bus and how
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can we make um give a really coherent frame to where we want to go and what they've decided to do is think about how
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do we partner with with universities in the global south who themselves have been hit very very hard by some of these
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cards how can we help build their leadership their capabilities their reputation so they can retract attract
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research funding themselves but also build a new generation of research searches at the same time. So that's I
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think a good example where it's not just a linear let's go from A to B, but try
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to go from uh you know to to many more levels at the same time. >> And how how do you think leadership
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teams can overcome some of those blind spots because um you know you don't know
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what you don't know essentially. How how can you kind of hold a mirror up and
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actually see behind behind you where you can never see. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's one of
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the most challenging uh pieces and I definitely felt it myself as as a CEO. And what I found is most teams um among
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the 50 or so organizations I've worked with over these these past years, they
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tend to look um outside in rather than inside out, Erica. So >> rather than look at themselves and say,
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look, what are we doing well? What can we go? Often we do the kind of SWAT style thing, you know, it's called
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different things and basically that's what it is. >> Yeah. >> Instead, look at the problem itself.
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What's the sector you're contributing? Let's say it's healthcare. Um what's
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happening in healthcare? Now we know for example I've just been working with the
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NHS and there's been a whole migration to community health and and primary care. If that's happening what does that
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mean for how we need to structure the whole service but also what does it mean from a leadership capability piece? So
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very practically if you have surgeries GP surgeries how do you make sure that uh those leading those are senior
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partners and so on know what to do to attract the next generation of trainees and young doctors and help them create
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that long-term pathway. So I think a lot of it is going back to the problem itself and saying you know what have we
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learned new what's different about our understanding of that how do we try and
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um you know accelerate that in the future >> and where did your curiosity about
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purpose and human motivation where did it begin >> so I'm I'm the son of Indian immigrants
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to this country I came when I was about four we grew up quite a bit in the Middle East as well my parents worked
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there in Saudi Arabia um and I think there was always quite a lot I I have incredible parents who did everything
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for us to succeed and be successful. Classic sort of immigrant story. They were highly educated but come to a new
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country had to start again in many ways. But I think as a result there was quite
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a lot of pressure to to pursue extrinsic definitions of success external. So you
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know um high status jobs um financial success of course um education and those were all useful to a point but I
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realized at some point I had to find my own path and about 10 or 12 years in I jumped off the corporate so treadmill
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honestly at some point and uh became an entrepreneur set up these two organizations that you mentioned earlier
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on and it was the best thing I I could have done. I think I realized that sometimes we can get trapped by by sort
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of success in many ways and defining it for ourselves going intrinsically thinking about our own um purpose and
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and so on can can matter a lot and and by a strange coincidence I worked with a lot of teachers um about 200,000
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teachers in those first organizations helping them think about their purpose and and meaning in in their profession
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and so that sort of made me you know think a lot about what does it mean at a large scale you know for for many jobs
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in the workforce this is is a problem. How do we make this something that really is applicable to anyone at the
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same time? >> And talking a bit about purpose, how how do organizations, how do leaders avoid
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purpose washing and how do you kind of bring that in to be part a core part of strategy?
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>> Yeah, there's a lot of I mean the unilver stuff about you know how do
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mayonnaise being purpose all that there's a lot of we can joke about. I think one of the key things that I found
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that's really important is to be really authentic and distinctive. So I think
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about the corporate world. Um I was helping the BCore movement um about a year and a half ago. Um they certify
00:14:17
companies to uh signal corporate responsibility. We had very large companies like Whole Foods, Coots, etc.
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sign up. About 2 or 3% of GDP now in the UK uh comes to that movement in just a few years. So I think it would been very
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easy for them to say let's go from I think at that point they were 2% let's
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go to 5% over the next 3 years. But they had a very um um enlightened sort of CEO
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and leadership team and it was really great working with them and helping think about some of these things. But
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they were saying let's rather than do that only let's look at the underlying
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drivers who influences businesses that's pension funds, regulators, government um
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and of course the business community itself. how can we start to work at some of the root cause level
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>> and and really start to work much more systemically, much more structurally um
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as well as keep growing of course the number of members and the share of GDP at the same time. So yeah, I think it's
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that sort of being able to flip and and and think differently about things >> and was there a defining experience or
00:15:17
person who shaped your view on leadership as a service? H um I think to be honest so I I would go and work with
00:15:25
governments a lot Erica in when I was working in education and see civil servants often in places like Africa or
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India where they were just thrown there was just so much going on they had to deal with hundreds of thousands of of
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staff members um >> I think India has about now about 1.2 two million schools to take an example.
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Just the scale of these systems was just unbelievable. to what puts anything in the UK um you know it sounds like
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peanuts in in comparison but they still were visionaries still very driven uh to
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make a difference in very very challenging uh context and they weren't always you know fully successful but
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there was a real um desire to still make that change despite the the difficult odds against them I think as well and so
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it made me think you know I live in a much more privileged um part of the world I work with many organizations
00:16:10
that are in much better financial shape for example we must make the most of what we can surely what we've got there
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as well. So I think that's seeing that you know what is possible under under
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challenging circumstances. >> It's very motivating isn't it? >> It's very grounding.
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>> Yeah it is. And I think they had a very clear sense you know I define purpose
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very simply about how you know how does our work help and serve others. They had
00:16:31
a very strong sense if I do this that means a teacher in our system will uh be able to teach much better. They'll have
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more space to do that. They'll feel more empowered. That will mean the child uh
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will be more receptive. They'll build a better relationship etc. So they could
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see all the way through the chain if you like of impact and see what will my work
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sitting in some fancy office or actually wasn't always that fancy in a ministry
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what will that mean at the level of the the individual I'm ultimately helping
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and serving. >> Yeah that's pretty amazing. You create a legacy don't you?
00:17:00
>> I think legacy I think my generation is uh uh is struggling with quite a bit.
00:17:04
I'm almost 50 now I should say Eric and uh you know we've been joking a lot
00:17:08
about um quiet quitting among Gen Z. I do quite a bit of standup jokes around it, but I do think my generation is
00:17:14
quiet leading. I think we're not always really partnering with the nextgen and
00:17:20
working with them to redevelop a common understanding of what success looks like, how to shape the future, what the
00:17:25
strategy of the organization needs to be, what how we can contribute to being a better world as well. We've tended to
00:17:31
often we're quite comfortable. We know what we're doing. We're now working a
00:17:34
bit more remotely as well which gives us more reasons to sort of insulate ourselves from the next generation. I
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think it's more important than ever for us to collaborate and that's why you
00:17:43
sent set up this new center at Oxford side business school where the whole idea is to help the next gen on the
00:17:49
program think about how they can have more impact influence with those above them in the workforce those that will be
00:17:54
leading them um but also to um we bring in senior leaders all the time to work with them on those questions. So there's
00:18:02
real dialogue and collaboration and there are moments of frustration, inertia, dissonance, all of it. But it's
00:18:08
amazing once that sort of once it clicks you can get really great collaboration and just deeper empathy and
00:18:13
understanding between generations at the same time. >> Do you think that there are things to be
00:18:17
learned from one generation to the next older generations to younger and likewise the other way around?
00:18:23
>> Absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of um I think generational trauma I
00:18:26
think that many of us experience. So things that we passed down to us. I think if I think of my generation we're
00:18:31
in that sort of seauite typically many things were sort of given almost like biblically this is how you do this is
00:18:36
how you lead you we watched all these films and you were taught you had to have a step up a lip and be very calm
00:18:41
and all of those elements um I don't think we often ask why you know why did
00:18:47
we why was that the receive wisdom was that what were the assumptions of those times are they relevant to a world now
00:18:52
which is moving at hyper hyper speed is very volatile has AI as a big feature a lot of that stuff I think we need to
00:18:59
offload and take away the baggage. Um yeah, so I think if if the you know my generation can think a little bit more
00:19:06
reflectively what do we want to keep on to hold on to from our our past experience but what what are we meant to
00:19:12
let go of? I think the next gen is much more much more in a much more radical spirit.
00:19:18
They really want to reshape the world much more profoundly and I think we can look incremental to them and I think
00:19:22
boards can look even more incremental and I think we have to respond and we have to show we are open to reshaping
00:19:28
things together. M I gave a talk at a senior school only a couple of weeks ago 16 17 year olds talking about careers
00:19:37
and kind of pathway forward and I asked them how many of them wanted to go to university um I asked them how many of
00:19:45
them wanted to go into business given that was what I was talking about and I'd say a smaller percentage than I
00:19:51
thought put their hand up for university and I would say 80% of the room put their hands up for some sort of
00:19:58
entrepreneurial business having some autonomy to kind of manage things themselves and do things maybe as a
00:20:05
consultant, maybe as a sole consultant. Um, but there seems to be a very different view of the art of possible
00:20:15
>> I would say in this uh younger generation that's kind of coming through
00:20:18
now. >> Yeah. No, so I'm hosting a dinner on Wednesday actually at the wine makers
00:20:21
club. I'm a wine fanatic as you know and um it's all it's with parents actually
00:20:26
who have got older children who have around you know 19 20 21 who are leaving university find the job market very very
00:20:33
tough right now and the discussion we're talking about is sort of and it's with a
00:20:36
collaborative called Matt Nichols a good friend this idea of family business 2.0
00:20:41
Oh ter term he invented but this kind of idea that um you know in in previous generations we would try and integrate
00:20:48
vertically as families because the economic environment was so uncertain. We didn't have those structures of big
00:20:53
corporates or big employers in the same way. We're kind of throwing the question
00:20:56
out of do we are we going back into that world where you know if your kids are living with you when they're 22 or 23 um
00:21:03
they can't afford their own housing the job market's more precarious. What do we
00:21:07
do as parents? Do we try and uh do we work with them? Do we create things together? Do we invest in ventures they
00:21:12
do for example? Whether that's directly or indirectly what's our role as
00:21:17
parents? So I think it's some interesting questions and quite tricky ones to navigate. But again I think if
00:21:21
we get the the conversations going better between generations that collaboration can be much more fruitful.
00:21:27
I think that will be a way of life and that that might simply be just being encouraging and supportive in the
00:21:32
broader sense or it might be actually we can do something and um and and do something very tangibly at the same
00:21:38
time. And looking at the the kind of younger generation, there's definitely some
00:21:46
different ideas around ethics perhaps that maybe a number of generations above us would would have kind of thought it's
00:21:54
all about profit, it's all about money, I'm in a business, whereas they have
00:21:57
some some different kind of views around ethics. I'm interested to know your your
00:22:01
thoughts if given your kind of BC Corp background as well and and the work you've done
00:22:07
with them in an organization if they were to be a profitable organization but essentially ethically indefensible
00:22:17
>> and wanted to change and to move and to pivot and do things differently. I know
00:22:21
a number of organizations for instance that fit into that category that find it very difficult to hire the younger
00:22:26
generation because they just the whole concept of what they do just turns them off. How how do organizations move and
00:22:34
shift into that new space? >> So I think what what happens a lot I think we get into a lot of these
00:22:39
questions around greenwashing and all these things about these big questions around purpose and so on. I think a lot
00:22:44
of it's more dayto-day and much more mundane about how we treat people dayto-day. So, I I was a big I'm not
00:22:50
going to mention the company, but I was I was using a wine service, an online thing, and I was a big fan. I bought a
00:22:54
bar about 50 bottles of last couple years from them. They had an event where you had to sign up to the event and you
00:23:00
could bring a guest, but the guest had to sign up for their service and put their credit card down and all this kind
00:23:07
of stuff. And I I just I just cancelled my script. I look, this is not I almost said like, what would a Gen Z think? I
00:23:11
need to do the same thing. This is not it's not that it's you know some deeply
00:23:15
it's not corruption in some way but it's it just doesn't feel right why why are
00:23:19
you doing this if the service is good someone will sign up why do you need to force people um into this kind of stuff
00:23:24
as well so I do think a lot of it is less about finding these benign industries where everything's perfect as
00:23:31
we know companies or industries are perfect that way but each day are we trying to have that intention to do
00:23:36
something positive treat people with dignity with respect that's a lot easier
00:23:40
than we actually think and I think jenz can be quite helpful to collaborate around that and perhaps less critical,
00:23:47
perhaps less of a council culture and more of what do we practically do to help our customers feel more, you know,
00:23:53
better in their lives, our staff to feel more valued and able to flourish um communities around us as well.
00:24:01
>> And how do you help leadership teams rediscover meaning when they've become
00:24:05
disconnected from it? >> I think what happens is we sort of end up playing the game. I don't know if
00:24:10
you'd agree from your your experience, but there's a sort of metaphor business,
00:24:13
especially in large corporates or even medium large corporates. There's a sense
00:24:17
you you're playing a game here. This is all a game and this is all sort of somewhat artificial. We're all here to a
00:24:23
bit like Game of Monopoly actually often. I think a lot of it is reconnect people to say, "Look, you're not this is
00:24:27
not a game, right? You're you're actually making whether you like it or not, you're impacting people positively
00:24:31
and negatively. >> Let's really be honest about what that looks like. What what is the reality out
00:24:36
there in the world you're operating in?" So um if you I've done work with groups
00:24:40
like L'Oreal and so on if you're even something the world of beauty for example um that has lots of questions to
00:24:46
think about but what is the impact you're having um how can we be positive role model in that how can you make this
00:24:53
a positive experience for those who are buying your products for example um all the way through so yeah I think there's
00:24:59
a lot that can be just with a bit of thought a bit of reflection stepping back it can be powerful
00:25:05
>> so I presume the disconnection it often comes from a disconnection from
00:25:11
either the product that or service that they're selling or the stakeholders that
00:25:14
sit around that organization. >> So either it's around the service product often and not even about um the
00:25:21
product intrinsically. It's more about what's around the product. Are we doing
00:25:24
everything we can to so many I think the beauty actually is a good example. There's been so much more focus now on
00:25:30
positive images trying to make these things feel the idea that we can all be normal. we're not trying to create some
00:25:36
kind of um some crazy superhuman um you know image of what PT looks like or wellness looks like and so on. Um so I
00:25:43
think that's one example where that there have been some positive trends. There's been negative stuff as well but
00:25:47
in general there's some positive things. So it's more going back to saying in the
00:25:51
world we're in people are going to be buying these products for a long time.
00:25:54
>> That's a reality rather than sort of think about should there be it's more
00:25:59
how can we try and make that better for them? How can we make it a more a more positive journey with with those
00:26:05
elements? How do we bring stakeholders along on that journey and engage in a conversation with them at the same time?
00:26:10
>> And how would you suggest that organizations start to make those steps in that direction?
00:26:15
>> I think first thing is we start with your employees actually. They often have
00:26:18
eyes and ears. Often as we get more senior organizations, we get more and more detached from the from the front
00:26:23
line, >> whatever that is, whether in the army or if we're selling, you know, whatever
00:26:26
toilet paper or whatever it might be. So, how do we reconnect with those younger employees? How do they see the
00:26:32
world? How are they interacting with our customers, clients, stakeholders, communities? And let's start to
00:26:38
understand their perspective. Um, if we do the same on our end and those in the seauite on the boards,
00:26:44
let's come together and say what's common and what's different and how do
00:26:47
we try and understand that piece. The the work I've been doing in Oxford is just about four things that are making
00:26:53
big generational difference. One is around perspective. We're seeing the world differently. You know, we're we're
00:26:58
perhaps more incremental. Perhaps the next gen is a little bit more radical. Um, authenticity. I think we have a a
00:27:05
view of of the world of work being a bit more of a game. I think there's more of
00:27:08
a desire uh to be more authentic at work from from Gen Z. Connection. I think we've focused a lot on um often the
00:27:16
efficiency of connection rather than the quality of it and the um and the depth of that connection. And the last thing
00:27:24
in terms of excellence, I think we tend to have a more absolute definition. there's a sort of floor or ceiling. I
00:27:30
think Gen Z tends to have more of a a mastery mindset. We want to go on a journey towards excellence and neither
00:27:36
view the spectrums are right or wrong. It's a where different sort of ends of
00:27:39
the spectrum. How do we find a middle ground around those elements of pace there's four sort of pieces there. So I
00:27:46
think actually exploring them, making them open, discussing them, building them into company culture, think about
00:27:51
how we run things in terms of processes, structures can be really gamechanging in
00:27:55
terms of future proofing. you know, both generations feeling at ease and able to
00:27:59
to to prosper as as the organization or company grows. >> And how how can organizations get those
00:28:07
candid kind of insights, feedback? Obviously, the culture needs to be well good enough, well established enough for
00:28:16
people to feel comfortable speaking truth to power because otherwise there's
00:28:20
a different challenge there altogether. But how how do they they kind of start? I know that lots of companies do
00:28:26
surveys, but arguably the number of people that fill them out or the purpose. I remember one survey that I
00:28:32
was sent through when I was in an organization as a consultant. I shouldn't have received it. I wasn't an
00:28:36
employee, but I did. And they had little smiley faces underneath like one to five. And and the first the top kind of
00:28:44
two had green smiley faces of of kind of different levels of smile. Um, and then
00:28:50
as soon as you got to kind of three, it was like a complete flatline. And then as soon as you got to the the bottom
00:28:56
two, they were red. So instantly you draw people into a certain um output. And even I looked at it as a as somebody
00:29:04
that obviously had no skin in the game. And I thought, wow, okay, you're the
00:29:09
smiley face is definitely the draw to this is the right answer. Click that button rather than just having numbers.
00:29:14
>> Um, how can organizations make sure they're not so biased, let's say. Um and
00:29:18
also getting the the real truth about it because a survey sometimes is a very flat piece of data.
00:29:24
>> I think I I've worked at god probably dozen hundreds of pulse surveys over
00:29:28
these past years and I think always find that there's a sort of passenger driver
00:29:31
dynamic right somehow the driver is the you know the leadership team or whatever
00:29:36
um everyone else is is the passenger and there's a sense of that the the passenger is giving feedback to the
00:29:40
driver. I think a much better metaphor is that we're all driving this together.
00:29:44
Some of us may be towards the front of the the train or the car, some of us may be in the middle um and so on. But we're
00:29:49
all in this together. I think anything we do to avoid this sense that um that there's that kind of driver passenger
00:29:56
dynamic. So a lot of it is just having conversations and it might be um I I am ending up actually being quite a bit a
00:30:02
lot of kind of generational mediator in what I'm doing right now talking to Gen
00:30:06
Z first or younger employees in the workforce understanding their so talking to perhaps say the partners of a law
00:30:11
firm and then trying to bring them together and say this is what I'm hearing on this side this is what I'm
00:30:15
hearing this these are some of the the points of similarity let's embrace them
00:30:19
how can we go even further with them often we forget there's actually a lot we do agree on on these points of
00:30:24
difference they tend to relate to this kind idea of pace you know there's four
00:30:28
areas um how how do we resolve them how do we address them and how do we find a good middle ground and middle doesn't
00:30:34
mean exactly in the middle it means based on those things it requires reflective leaders though I think who
00:30:39
are open to listen it also reflect requires um younger employees to also be open to understand that there are
00:30:45
realities of running a business they've got to be it's got to be financially
00:30:48
sound got to make sure that they're healthy first and foremost so I think but a lot of it if we can have a safe
00:30:54
neutral space where um we can talk together and really de develop ideas together. We we live in a very polarized
00:31:00
world as we know more generally Erica and >> that's really shut down a lot of the
00:31:04
discussion the sense of us creating constructively together um across generations and and more widely
00:31:10
>> and people need to feel that they can voice their perspective without um
00:31:16
having potential backlash from that whether it's whatever obviously within the realms of you know what's decent and
00:31:24
right and fair for everybody but having to kind of tow the line sometimes on a particular strong character's
00:31:31
perspective and feeling very much having to keep their own perspective boxed and
00:31:38
quiet can be quite a challenge. How do you how do you balance the the different generations? Because the different
00:31:45
generations don't necessarily perfectly fit in in an organization that all of
00:31:50
the younger people sit at the bottom of the food chain and all the older people sit at the top because you can you can
00:31:56
end up with all sorts of different dynamics and that can really change a leadership team if you have somebody
00:32:02
quite young. I was 32 when I was a seauite governance professional and that was quite young compared to everybody
00:32:10
else that was around me >> and that created some tension of itself not purposefully but just a different
00:32:18
generation different conversations and it it's a shift isn't it >> how do people make that shift
00:32:26
>> yeah so I think we're now I think Patrick Dun's done some really good work
00:32:28
on this but there's there's now five generations in the workforce and So um
00:32:32
that's the most we've ever had really in any meaningful way, tangible way. So
00:32:36
that's a key piece. So it's less about binary, it's less about one gender
00:32:40
versus another. I think it's another way of thinking about inclusion um and creating cultures that really
00:32:45
allow everyone to find that that sweet spot for themselves I think is is part of that that that sort of battle there.
00:32:52
I would say though I think seuite leaders themselves feel quite attacked right now. M
00:32:57
>> so I feel many who've been on panels in front of their employees and they will
00:33:00
say something probably a little bit off color or slightly out of context and they will get hammered by by by the
00:33:06
younger employees. So I think it's two-way thing. I think it's definitely
00:33:09
true that many youngies don't feel particularly emotionally or psychologically safe to express things
00:33:13
for sure. But I think many sees are they are quite quitting. They're quite leading too because they feel if I'm
00:33:19
honest about stuff. So if I'm honest what it takes to be successful to really
00:33:23
get to the top of their organization, they will be criticized or maybe even attacked by those um earlier on. So I
00:33:30
sort of feel like both sides are sort of switching off and defending each themselves rather than really coming
00:33:35
together and connecting and saying let's find a common point of view here >> and you you reconnect them by bringing
00:33:41
them together and allowing them space. >> Yeah, I think I think in person is is
00:33:45
powerful. I think a lot of it though is getting a sense of what the issues really are. It's classic sort of
00:33:54
mediation in many regards when it comes to this kind of work. Um and sometimes it's about trying to find a middle
00:33:58
ground between sometimes it's about finding another alternative that will actually break the deadlock altogether.
00:34:04
So I was talking remember talking to one professional services firm where there was a big thing about work life balance
00:34:10
right and Gen Z employees were often saying look I I really want work life balance for that's an important value
00:34:16
and the managers of the organization were saying yeah but I also I'm a human
00:34:19
too and what if you if you go down this route I'm going to be the one who's
00:34:22
deeply unbalanced and it was super simple stuff but actually seeing that and hearing there was a a personal
00:34:28
consequence to all of this stuff really helped unlock it for them and we some new ways of thinking about how do we all
00:34:34
just achieve better work, really high quality work together, uh much more meaningful, much more client friendly.
00:34:40
Let's take out some of the bells and whistles that was taking up a lot of time that the client didn't really
00:34:43
value, but would actually make almost make them feel that you were providing a better service to them.
00:34:49
>> Yes. In in organizations, you can have um different generations um in different sectors, whether that's
00:34:58
or different levels of management, whether they are employees or very senior. How do you blend a variety of
00:35:05
different generations within let's say the kind of lowest tier of um employees
00:35:10
or even from my own experience I was 32 when I stepped into um the boardroom that created some tension of itself
00:35:17
because I was all of a sudden in the seauite um level of people how how do organizations manage that
00:35:25
>> yeah so we've got five generations that work nar as we know and uh probably the
00:35:29
most in terms of just real magnitude of of a piece and I think the way that our pension systems are working and so that
00:35:34
probably might continue for quite a while. Maybe we'll get to six, who knows? But um I think that's a really
00:35:39
exciting opportunity because we're no longer it's no longer sort of binary.
00:35:42
We're not looking up or looking down. We're looking both ways. And so the
00:35:46
group I teach at Oxford, for example, on the generations lab course, what we're
00:35:50
talking a lot about how do you have influence upwards and downwards. So at the beginning of your career, it's
00:35:55
probably going to be more upwards. It's going to be think about how do you impact those above you and influence
00:35:59
them and try to help shape the world in different ways. >> But almost certainly from the beginning
00:36:04
you're going to have teams right after you finish the MBA who you're also
00:36:07
leading and trying to be a role model towards as well. And it's a bit like you
00:36:11
know um my wife has um recently become a therapist and uh she still has to do therapy herself and it's really
00:36:16
important to sort of see both sides of it actually to u it makes us I think more reflective it makes us I think more
00:36:23
self more self-critic in a good way in that regard as well. So yeah, so I don't
00:36:27
think it's about one way up, but it's really thinking about how do I take that
00:36:31
generation perspective to everything I do, whichever way that issue might be facing. An issue might be more relevant
00:36:38
for for Gen Z. It might be more relevant towards seauite. I find many seuite leaders now feeling quite vulnerable.
00:36:43
They're not able to be fully honest themselves when they speak at public forums or even internal employee forums.
00:36:48
They feel a bit guarded. Um I think we've got to think about how we can attack those issues from different uh
00:36:55
different points in the generational spectrum. >> Yeah. And the kind of the organizations
00:37:00
as you say where those CEOs are feeling quite guarded. I think you're right.
00:37:05
there's so many more people being so much more vocal um about how they feel and we see that in politics um and we
00:37:14
see that in organizations um and we see that in people standing up and being those advocates for particular
00:37:20
perspectives in the world. >> How how do you manage that? Because obviously as a CEO you also need to be
00:37:27
able to lead and if you feel like you can't speak your truth to everybody else
00:37:32
that's obviously can be a limiting factor. it can hold you back. >> Um, but also you have to understand who
00:37:39
sits within your organization and who those stakeholders are wider than just those employees.
00:37:43
>> It's a it's a big balance, right? >> It's a tricky one. I think ultimately
00:37:46
you have to stand stand for something as a leader. I think you know our prime minister in the UK has had this right
00:37:51
where we won an election in a way almost being the opposite of something else that was there rather than being
00:37:57
particularly clear what really we were standing for. And I think that's now coming back to bite very heavily. And
00:38:02
it's a real I'm sure I'm really hopeful they'll find a way out, but it's it's
00:38:05
tricky period to be in right now. So I do think it's important to, you know, in
00:38:09
that back to that definition of I'm helping people reach places they wouldn't reach otherwise. We've got to
00:38:13
define what that new place is, why it's better, and we've got to stand our
00:38:17
ground and say this is important. I know there'll be some tough um compromises,
00:38:21
some maybe some sacrifices along the way to get there, but let's really talk
00:38:24
about that new place. Why is it exciting? Why will everyone benefit? where it would be a better place for us
00:38:30
all. That's the bit I think leaders now find quite tricky to do. It's become I
00:38:34
think leadership has become management. It's become mechanized. >> It's become a series of quarterly
00:38:39
templates and results and earnings and all these things we're comfortable. You
00:38:43
know, we see so much on the board attention go to rather that deeper question. What are we actually trying to
00:38:47
to achieve? Where are we trying to go? How do we all get there together? The core of it.
00:38:52
>> Yeah. And looking more at founders, they can find it quite difficult to step back
00:38:59
from operations as the team and the business grows and becomes a bigger organization. What have you learned
00:39:07
about leading through that sort of a situation? Yeah, I was I was actually a very fascinating discussion with a group
00:39:13
of um um folks who work with founders last week actually and there was a um a psychotherapist who came um and talked
00:39:18
and she was talking about how many founders actually have had them some kind of generational trauma themselves.
00:39:23
They've had often it's fathers for example who perhaps um left or or passed
00:39:28
away early and they want to prove something to the world as well if it's if it's guys and perhaps the other way
00:39:32
for for female founders. But um I think there's something very powerful about
00:39:37
founders that we need them to change the world. we won't be able to get to where
00:39:40
we need to get to without that energy, that creative creative destruction that's part of their work as well. At
00:39:46
the same time, I think there's something about um helping founders see something beyond them and not completely
00:39:55
imsh what they do versus what the organization needs. And I I stepped out of my second organization that I founded
00:40:01
because I felt I there was founder syndrome. I was being the constraint to growth after a point of being at 10
00:40:06
years. We got to very big scale. it wasn't my skill set. I really enjoyed the more nimble entrepreneurial days as
00:40:12
well. But I think often we need to give space founders to think about um where they are. They're really the
00:40:18
right place for their organization at this point. But also what do they want to do next? Often a lot of it's they get
00:40:23
stuck because they don't know what the next step is. They can still have impact
00:40:27
influence in a different way. It could be as an adviser, an investor for example. Um yeah, lots of other
00:40:33
permutations there as well. They could set up something new in a new area. But helping them feel positive and bring
00:40:38
that energy somewhere else I found is really important for founders so they can unlock something new and then they
00:40:44
really leave a strong legacy and succession with their existing um organization at the same time. And that
00:40:50
sort of principled approach can also really help I guess as an organization grows because as they take those hats
00:40:56
off and start passing them to other people that sit within their organization they need to start
00:41:02
relinquishing some of that responsibility and giving that trust to others otherwise you end up stifling all
00:41:08
sorts of growth and opportunities and also the people that are in your organization.
00:41:13
>> Yeah. And I think back to that kind of hour hand, minute hand, secondhand
00:41:16
metaphor. If if as leaders, we want to play at the the hourhand level as a seuite or the CEO level. Um we need to
00:41:23
make sure they're strong people at the second and the minute hand as well. So
00:41:26
how do we give them that autonomy? We don't um second guess decisions. We don't try and get to operationally. We
00:41:31
make sure that the overall metrics and performance is going well, but we really focus on where how we building the new
00:41:37
place, that new destination. That's where I find the most healthy um teams work. and everyone knows where they fit
00:41:44
in. They see it all come together. They can be honest with each other's different points and then it's easier
00:41:49
for a founder to know this is a time to um yeah almost my I've got it to the
00:41:54
place I wanted to get to. Now someone else needs to come with new energy take you to that that next place from there.
00:42:00
M there's definitely been a lot of discussion particularly on social media about founders kind of leaving and then
00:42:08
the organization crumbles because they were part of the glue that held it all together and a let's say a hired CEO can
00:42:15
never quite have the same level of passion as the person that created in the first place. Do you think that's
00:42:20
true? >> Definitely seen lots of it and I've I've stepped into help quite a few of those
00:42:24
situations. I think of back to the sort of a wine analogy, you know, you almost want to have culture in organization
00:42:29
like a bottle of wine. We look at the label, look at what's in there, what grapes are in there. It needs to be
00:42:34
defined and codified. It can mature. It can evolve as any good windups, but there's something already quite um
00:42:40
strong as a foundation for that that that that bottle to to begin with. Then I think the where that happens where
00:42:46
that where things collapse or um is where there hasn't been enough attention
00:42:50
to really making things more explicit, more understood, more codified, especially as organizations
00:42:57
grow. So as new people come in, culture can get quite watered down. It can get diluted. How do you really keep that
00:43:03
that sort of the integrity of that bottle all the way through? >> And moving more to kind of inflection
00:43:10
points. So you often describe leadership as being tested at moments of inflection.
00:43:16
>> Um can you share a time when you saw that tested kind of up close um either
00:43:22
your own journey or with a leader that you've supported? >> So um I was the CEO of an education
00:43:27
organization at that time. We were working in about um 300 schools at that point in India and the government of
00:43:33
Delhi came to us and said we really want um want to work with you, want to collaborate, partner with you, but we
00:43:38
want you to get to 20,000 schools almost overnight. And um I tried for four to four or five
00:43:45
times to actually just shut it down and sort of not get into it. Felt too crazy,
00:43:49
too um uh almost too mystical to try and achieve. But they were just being so persistent. At one point they said,
00:43:56
"Look, you know, either go big or go home. we'll we'll stop you know the
00:43:59
partnership altogether if you don't scale in the way we need we need you to really be um working with every child in
00:44:05
our system and to be fair you know going back to boards our board was really great about that they say look this is
00:44:10
the story where this is the reality we're in we're not sure we can how to
00:44:13
get there exactly but we trust that you'll be able to find your way through our job as a board is let's meet every
00:44:19
quarter as we do now but let's focus on less about current metrics because they
00:44:23
were close to relevant now as you go on this new journey let's look at the the
00:44:28
direction you're going and what do we need to to to know as you go along that
00:44:31
you're on track towards that new direction. So are staff able to lead um in a much more leverage way? Could they
00:44:37
work with people already in the system and get them to more of the day-to-day work of our approach? Could they uh were
00:44:44
we really getting senior level buy from the very top of government so we could get the right cultural changes into the
00:44:49
system for example? So it was a kind of yes, we're very much there to support
00:44:53
you but we want to show see that you're really on track. you're not deluding
00:44:57
yourselves. This can be done. Let's use the next 18 months to test whether we
00:45:01
can go on this new journey of inflection, but if there are any sort of roadblocks, let's come back and think
00:45:06
about things again and maybe slow things down if we need to along the way. So, it
00:45:10
was a great example of board not saying yes or no or trying to um out guess me as the CEO, but saying yeah, we we
00:45:17
understand where you're coming from. Let us be the kind of guard rails around
00:45:20
that. Let's ask good questions and make sure that you're really going on the
00:45:24
journey in the in the best way possible. And it really helps the CEO when you have that support of the board knowing
00:45:30
that they are trying to set you up for success. Okay? They understand that there could be some challenges along the
00:45:36
way and it may not be successful. >> But they're there with you. That must
00:45:40
have really helped how you how you dealt with the situation. >> And I was very entrepreneur. So I wasn't
00:45:46
a sort of st I wasn't a you know a mature se who wanted to keep things very stable. Well, I think what the best
00:45:52
boards I've seen at least work with um they tend to help the CEO be the best
00:45:56
version of themselves they can be. They're not trying to change the person. They realize they've got a certain
00:46:01
style, certain approach, but they are trying to make sure they are um that they really flourish in that
00:46:06
perspective, but they don't also um hit any kind of jihari window areas, areas
00:46:10
where you can't see ourselves or we have these blind spots. So, just making sure
00:46:14
that nothing goes wrong along that piece. They're very very supportive especially in that growth stage when
00:46:19
it's sort of more founder driven and so on but they are also critical friends
00:46:23
and honest and open but always in a way of supporting the CM leadership team to get to where they want to go. I think
00:46:29
where things break down is when the board starts playing um almost wants to own the strategy drive and there's a
00:46:35
myth in corporate and most organ that board set strategy. I think that's really it's rare I think as well maybe
00:46:42
technically perhaps in a fiduciary sense but there's such an asymmetry of of of
00:46:46
of involvementally for most sports that that isn't realistic in most cases to in
00:46:51
my knowledge anyway >> and I suppose it works the other way round as well. I've got from my own
00:46:57
experience of running a business and having um two people that sit as independent directors on my board
00:47:03
>> that as the CEO, you can be in situations where you ask questions of them or you're presenting a particular
00:47:12
idea to them and they they do come back and whilst they are supportive, they also respect that you have a a different
00:47:19
perspective and a different approach. And although they may have felt that the direction of travel on reading the
00:47:25
agenda in the papers was a certain way, they're actually happy to be um I suppose steered to a certain extent. Not
00:47:33
pushed out of what they believe. >> That's not quite what I'm saying, but
00:47:37
more um their eyes are opened to a different way because that CEO, they trust in that CEO as much as they are
00:47:44
given trust to that CEO. >> Yeah. The best board meetings I I've attended I've helped um co set up quite
00:47:49
a few of these is where all the sort of more formal stuff the report the performance overview all of that side is
00:47:54
done in the in 45 minutes and then there's two hours of open discussion of whatever at that point is the most
00:47:59
pressing issue it's it's also anchored on the strategy and milestones and so on
00:48:03
but it's open to discuss whatever it is and it genuinely is a discussion and the
00:48:07
co will say look I'm really torn between these are three paths I could take here's the situation I've got these
00:48:12
options I'm not sure about the financial implications of A or I'm worried about
00:48:16
the people implications of B and it's a genuine discussion where people are creating together and doing that as
00:48:22
well. So it's not not performative. You're not going in to play a game. It's
00:48:26
really one where you're trying to use all of that external perspective the board has that their diverse strengths
00:48:30
and and skills and it's additive to the company itself. But I don't think that
00:48:35
many I you know better than I do, but not that many board meetings work in in quite that way.
00:48:40
>> No. No, they definitely don't. Um and that is something that's always strikes
00:48:45
me as interesting. >> Um before I stepped out to be a CEO, I was advising boards. Therefore, it was
00:48:52
very easy for me to have an objective independent perspective and say you should be using the time with the board
00:48:58
to help air some of your ideas. They're there to help move things forward. And
00:49:02
if you feel that you've only got to you can only present them with the finished
00:49:05
article, that's never going to it's never going to help. Uh, and the board
00:49:09
is then pretty much just a box tick. It's like, okay, this is what we're
00:49:14
being presented. This is the answer. Do we agree? Don't we agree? If we don't
00:49:17
agree, maybe we fall out with the CEO or create some unnecessary tension. Is it worth it? How do we put where do we put
00:49:24
the pressure? Do we say yes or no? Which of the agenda items do we agree on or which ones do we, you know, want to push
00:49:30
a little bit? And then it becomes a game. But it can becomes a game from the other side as well of like trying to
00:49:35
keep um tensions um low. essentially. But you need that curiosity and you need those discussions that are a bit more
00:49:44
interesting, a bit more exciting. You need to have that disagreement. You just need to be respectful disagreement.
00:49:49
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the generation element plays out in boards.
00:49:52
So I see a lot of boards which are basically captured by usually a couple of people who've been there for a long
00:49:56
time. they may formally be the chair or or not but implicit everyone sort of cowtows to them and it's um there's not
00:50:03
much disscent and much much genuine discussion and debate and it becomes very you have that's the I think the
00:50:08
irony of the board story is that we've been bringing many more diverse people
00:50:11
to boards but in terms of cognitive diversity it sort of still hasn't really
00:50:15
opened up different ways of thinking different ways of exploring issues and I think that needs to shake up generate
00:50:20
often the younger generations of board members will often now come on boards >> there's a very strong implicit um
00:50:26
message that your job is just to stay largely quiet. You can make a comment here, but you're not really going to
00:50:31
rock the boat too much. And that's why I think when we get into our biggest problems is when that that isn't
00:50:36
happening at the board level also. >> And what gives you hope about the next
00:50:41
generation of leaders? >> Um I just think there so there's just less crap. I think it's just more
00:50:47
they're much wanting to cut to the the chase. I think they haven't been all of these things are not good things.
00:50:52
They weren't able to get perhaps on the housing ladder in the same way we were.
00:50:55
they weren't able to perhaps or perhaps aren't able to have the same security
00:50:58
early on in their careers. Um they didn't have the same intimacy I mean in terms of um professional in terms of
00:51:05
really having mentors and nurturing perhaps the way we did in our early careers especially in more structured
00:51:10
job environments. But as a result, I think they're much less tolerant of of the nonsense we put up with, I think, as
00:51:15
a world. And much more willing to get to the chase and say, why are we doing this? And I think there's a real desire
00:51:20
to know why why do we need to do it this way? And some of that is naive. Some can
00:51:24
be can be frustrating. And I felt it at times, but a lot of it actually if you really ask that question, why are we
00:51:29
doing it? There isn't often a a good reason. It can be done so much better. And so if you can use that um that's
00:51:35
that restlessness, that openness, that willing, that wanting to reshape things more radically in a positive way, but
00:51:41
add the wisdom and experience that comes with um with age and with with sort of time in in a in a role, I think we can
00:51:48
have a really beautiful sort of um cocktail of the two things happening. That's why I think optimistic. We need
00:51:53
to crack that that generation collaboration understanding, but it can unlock so much in in in shaping a better
00:51:59
world. And you've spoken a little bit before, you've used the analogy um from Mike
00:52:06
Tyson or the quote from Mike Tyson. Um a fight plan is great until you get punched in the face.
00:52:13
That's really quite pivotal. I think I know you've spoken about it in a uh in a
00:52:20
teaching kind of education perspective, but have you got any examples uh with regards to organizations you've worked
00:52:27
with or anything that might be helpful for our listeners with regards to boards?
00:52:32
>> Yeah, so I think um I should say Mike T is not the perfect role model, but it
00:52:36
was I think it was a very good quote um on that one. But on that point, I think um I've been helping a group in America
00:52:41
called Partners Public Good. They've been they've just spun out of Harvard.
00:52:44
Um and they're trying to reimagine procurement actually. So a lot of it is around governance and so on and make
00:52:49
procurement across I think it's about several trillion dollars of spend every
00:52:53
year across the states more um just more thoughtful more intentional so we can all have better public services as
00:52:59
citizens. And what's been really impressive with the spinout is they they've done it. They've felt this is
00:53:04
the time to do it. Um they've kept very good relations with Harvard which they
00:53:08
owe a lot of um uh gratitude for for everything they've done to get through to this point. But they've also been
00:53:14
feeding their way very um very emergently really as well. There's been they're building for example a network
00:53:19
of of professionals I've been helping them think about but they haven't gone
00:53:22
and saying this is the only answer. We'll try things. We'll try events. We'll try platforms. See what sticks.
00:53:28
We'll talk to our members and we're kind of gradually edging to the the right
00:53:32
answer. It's not going to happen overnight. It's going to be a much more
00:53:35
emergent view of getting to that that goal of helping influence um yeah better better services for all in that that
00:53:41
regard. And if you could leave one message for our listeners about leadership that lasts, what would that
00:53:49
be? >> Yeah, I think really try and think about how you can future proof success. Um,
00:53:54
first of all, um, but with with a with a long a long haul perspective and ideally
00:54:00
across generations. So, let's really get to that hour hand really feel like an
00:54:04
hour hand taking that much longer term perspective. And I think everything we do then will feel um much more
00:54:10
meaningful, much more purposeful and will leave a much bigger and better legacy.
00:54:15
>> It was really great to speak to Sharath today. Um he really opened the box on
00:54:20
the generational challenges within organizations and how organizations can start to unpack that. I think that it
00:54:27
starts with finding purpose and that purpose is something then that generations can get behind and assume
00:54:34
that they are able to do that. That then means that the organization can move forward where everybody, as he
00:54:41
mentioned, wherever they are sat on the bus, whether they're at the front or the
00:54:44
back, um they can move forward and they can feel really part of what they're
00:54:49
trying to create. I think finally, it's also about impact. So, what do you do
00:54:54
and what does that look like in reality? And you can talk quite a lot about generational challenges, but the reality
00:55:04
is what are you going to do about it and how are you going to engage those people? Uh, and one of the insights that
00:55:10
I got from him was that it's all about conversations. It's about talking to
00:55:13
those individuals, really understanding and learning what it is that matters to them. And whilst that might not
00:55:19
necessarily meaning meet perfectly in the middle, it does mean that you will understand those stakeholders, those
00:55:25
individuals, and hopefully you can move forward together um with a shared purpose. That's it for this episode of
00:55:32
Grit in the Boardroom. Thanks to Sherath for sharing his story with honesty and insight. And thank you for listening. If
00:55:40
you found this conversation valuable, please follow the show and share it with someone who leads through complexity.
00:55:45
Until next time, stay thoughtful, stay brave, and stay in the room.