00:00:00
where things collapse is where there
00:00:01
hasn't been enough attention to really
00:00:03
making things a tacit more explicit,
00:00:05
more understood, more codified. We can
00:00:07
get trapped by by sort of success in
00:00:09
many ways. We're all in this together. I
00:00:11
think anything we do to avoid this sense
00:00:13
that there's that kind of driver
00:00:14
passenger dynamics.
00:00:16
Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm
00:00:18
Erica Ilas Norris and today's
00:00:20
conversation explores how purpose
00:00:22
becomes progress and how leaders can
00:00:25
build meaning that lasts across
00:00:26
generations.
00:00:28
My guest is Sherah Javan Obbe, a trusted
00:00:31
advisers to CEOs and leadership teams
00:00:33
worldwide. As founder and executive
00:00:36
chairman of Intrinsic Labs and leader of
00:00:38
the generational success lab at Oxford
00:00:40
University's SIAD Business School, he
00:00:43
helps organizations build purposeful
00:00:45
strategies, enduring cultures, and
00:00:47
authentic intergenerational
00:00:48
collaboration. His clients include
00:00:51
Oxford and Cambridge universities, Teach
00:00:54
for All, L'Oreal, Shopify, and the NHS,
00:00:57
and many more. Shareth is the author of
00:00:59
Intrinsic and Inflection, is now writing
00:01:02
Inheritable, a novel exploring
00:01:04
intergenerational leadership.
00:01:06
Previously, he founded and led Stir
00:01:08
Education and Teaching Leaders, reaching
00:01:10
over 10 million children across 40,000
00:01:13
schools globally. Outside work, Sherath
00:01:16
is an internationally competitive pickle
00:01:18
ball player and a student of wine. He
00:01:20
lives in London with his wife and two
00:01:22
teenage sons. Shareath, welcome to Grit
00:01:25
in the Boardroom.
00:01:25
>> Thanks, Erica.
00:01:27
>> So, to start with, uh, you often speak
00:01:30
about futureproofing lasting success.
00:01:33
What does that really mean in practice
00:01:35
for leaders and organizations today?
00:01:37
Yeah, I think one of the challenges,
00:01:38
Erica, I don't know if you would agree
00:01:40
from your boardroom experience is our
00:01:42
time frames are quite short and I see,
00:01:44
you know, even CEOs of organizations,
00:01:47
you know, I think a lot about the the
00:01:48
second hand, the minute hand and the
00:01:50
hourhand and so much of the pressure
00:01:52
today is on the second hand, the minute
00:01:54
hand
00:01:55
>> rather than thinking about the hourhand
00:01:56
and what is that long-term direction,
00:01:59
purpose, um the place that the leaders
00:02:02
really want to go to help people get to
00:02:04
places they wouldn't have got to
00:02:05
otherwise. That's my definition of
00:02:07
leadership. And what's been coming out
00:02:09
from that is also not just within a
00:02:11
generation, but also taking the long
00:02:12
road and thinking what that means
00:02:14
crossgenerationally as well.
00:02:17
>> And how do you think leaders can support
00:02:20
with that crossgenerational work?
00:02:22
>> I think part of it is trying to really
00:02:23
find disruptive ideas that really will
00:02:26
shape um shape the future, will shape
00:02:28
that better world. So I've been lucky to
00:02:30
work with about 30 or 40 really exciting
00:02:32
organizations. they they can be um
00:02:34
ventures, they can be part of larger
00:02:36
organizations um startups, you name it,
00:02:40
that are trying to build a different
00:02:41
future um in terms of how kids, for
00:02:43
example, experience the world in terms
00:02:45
of how young people enter the workforce.
00:02:48
All of those kinds of themes as well. So
00:02:50
part of the work is really helping that
00:02:51
that disruptive community thrive,
00:02:54
flourish, and be even more distinctive
00:02:55
and be more successful. The other side
00:02:58
of work I find myself doing is helping
00:02:59
existing organizations that have scale
00:03:02
already, large corporates, large
00:03:03
foundations, um, public sector
00:03:05
organization like the NHS
00:03:07
>> think about how they can actually manage
00:03:09
and navigate that intergenerational
00:03:10
transition better so that understanding
00:03:13
collaboration can happen better between
00:03:16
generations. I sort of think we need new
00:03:18
new ideas, new ways of doing things
00:03:19
coming into the world, but we also need
00:03:20
those who've already got power and skill
00:03:23
to reshape what they do at the same
00:03:24
time.
00:03:25
And when you look at boards um in
00:03:30
today's society, do you think that
00:03:32
they're prepared for the expectations of
00:03:34
that kind of Gen Z kind of investors,
00:03:36
let's say, and employees alike?
00:03:39
>> Yeah, I think boards are in a very
00:03:40
tricky place right now overall. I've had
00:03:41
a chance the fortune to work with many
00:03:43
of them. Um I mostly work with
00:03:44
leadership teams and CEOs, but of course
00:03:46
the board is an important factor and
00:03:48
almost always our work tends to
00:03:50
>> interface with that really important
00:03:51
element. I still think board I know your
00:03:53
work is all about this Erica but um it's
00:03:56
still very much a defensive sort of
00:03:57
play. It feels very much about
00:03:58
mitigating risk often is often the
00:04:00
mindset.
00:04:01
>> Yes,
00:04:01
>> it's quite cautious. Um
00:04:03
>> it can often be quite short-term. That's
00:04:05
something that really surprised me
00:04:07
observing some of the boards I was able
00:04:08
to work with. I thought that the idea of
00:04:10
uh being a steward in that way was to
00:04:12
have that long-term stewardship that
00:04:13
would futureproof really an organization
00:04:16
two to many years maybe decades maybe
00:04:18
centuries ahead. But often the pressure
00:04:20
is on quarterly results or short-term
00:04:22
performance. And I think it's an
00:04:24
interesting question of how leadership
00:04:26
team CEOs and and boards work together
00:04:28
better to to shift that culture. I think
00:04:30
as well
00:04:31
>> yeah I think sometimes boards can be
00:04:34
very focused on as you say the short
00:04:36
term because that's what they're
00:04:37
incentivized that's the performance
00:04:38
metrics and therefore that directs
00:04:40
travel. How do you think leaders can
00:04:43
help look at that longer term view? How
00:04:45
do you help um organizations do that? So
00:04:47
being super honest, I often take them
00:04:49
out of the board structure for a little
00:04:50
while to give them a safe space often
00:04:52
three or six months where they can
00:04:53
explore different realities.
00:04:55
>> I think with the with a board um
00:04:58
dynamics even when there's the closest
00:04:59
relationships I'd say between a board
00:05:01
chair and CEO and I say this having had
00:05:03
an excellent board chair myself when I
00:05:04
was a a CEO um over my years of leading
00:05:08
um there's still a performative element
00:05:10
of that game, right? You're still trying
00:05:11
to show that you're in control. You've
00:05:13
got it sorted. It's quite hard to be
00:05:15
vulnerable if you're a CEO. hard to
00:05:17
express doubt, not even doubt, but even
00:05:19
express uncertainty and I'm not quite
00:05:21
sure these are three crossroads I could
00:05:23
take and I'm not sure which way to go.
00:05:25
That can often make us here look what's
00:05:28
a her or him look weak, indecisive and
00:05:31
so on. And that says a lot about how we
00:05:32
think about leadership um and some of
00:05:34
our sort of mental models about it and
00:05:36
how maybe mism they are but that's it is
00:05:38
what it is. So often taking CEOs and
00:05:41
leadership teams away for a little
00:05:42
while. I don't mean physically all the
00:05:43
time, but give them that safe space to
00:05:45
reflect, think about what they really
00:05:47
see the problem being in their sector or
00:05:49
industry. Help them think about what
00:05:51
makes their perspective unique and
00:05:52
different. And from them crafting a
00:05:55
direction that really feels authentic
00:05:56
and distinctive to them rather than just
00:05:59
copying what every everyone else is
00:06:00
doing. And around halfway through that
00:06:02
process, usually a couple of months in
00:06:04
where they've gained some confidence,
00:06:05
feeling good about things, we often
00:06:07
bring in the board for an early pass to
00:06:09
say how does this feel and really want
00:06:11
to make sure they shape it of course and
00:06:13
play a very very proactive role. But I
00:06:15
have had fun just giving a bit of of
00:06:16
neutral space can be quite helpful in in
00:06:19
that regard actually.
00:06:20
>> And why does so many leadership teams
00:06:24
they seem to really struggle with
00:06:25
planning for success beyond their own
00:06:27
tenure? Why do you think that might be
00:06:30
and what can they do to kind of overcome
00:06:31
that barrier?
00:06:33
>> And I say this, you know, myself as a
00:06:34
founder CEO and it's very tricky. We
00:06:36
entangle ourselves, I think the
00:06:37
therapist would say, in mesh ourselves
00:06:39
with with uh, you know, with the
00:06:41
organizations we we lead. That's it's
00:06:42
very hard to separate those things. I
00:06:44
think one of the things I found the best
00:06:46
CEOs and leadership teams doing is say,
00:06:47
look, um, I'm here to take the
00:06:50
organization to a place it wouldn't have
00:06:51
got to otherwise. That's my role. I'm
00:06:53
going to take it from A to B, but I know
00:06:55
someone else who needs to take it from B
00:06:56
to C, C to D. There going to be many
00:06:59
more chapters. Think of it almost like a
00:07:00
novel. Um, as a result, I need to create
00:07:03
the foundational scaffolding of culture
00:07:06
in particular that allows us to keep
00:07:08
reinventing, keep being relevant. And
00:07:10
that kind of lifelong learning muscle is
00:07:12
is really important, especially in this
00:07:14
day and age where things are changing so
00:07:15
fast. How do we really try and build
00:07:17
that culture and where people are open
00:07:19
to being adaptive to to be reflective to
00:07:22
be experiment experimental where needed?
00:07:24
>> Um, so I think there's a lot CEOs can do
00:07:25
to prepare. They may not know what the
00:07:27
next few chapters of the book might be,
00:07:29
but they can set almost the chapter
00:07:30
outline well by creating that cultural
00:07:33
foundation and and role modeling and
00:07:35
showing them they themselves don't have
00:07:36
all the answers. They're trying to
00:07:38
search and discover things, find that
00:07:40
from different people. M um and there
00:07:43
are writers as well that talk as well
00:07:45
about seasons. So they say you might be
00:07:47
a winter CEO or a summer CEO depending
00:07:50
if you're talking about the highs and
00:07:51
the lows and they very much are very
00:07:54
good in certain situations when you're
00:07:57
riding on a very high high or perhaps
00:07:59
you know it's a turnaround situation.
00:08:01
There are many people that kind of focus
00:08:02
in on that sort of approach and they
00:08:05
have that level of experience. How how
00:08:08
can someone be, I suppose, open to being
00:08:11
challenged, but also be self-aware
00:08:13
enough to work out and establish where
00:08:16
they fit best and where their skills
00:08:17
are.
00:08:18
>> I think No, I think it's really powerful
00:08:20
the sort of the seasons metaphor, the
00:08:22
winter summer stuff. We've got global
00:08:23
warming happening, whatever happens. And
00:08:26
I'm almost more interested in sort of um
00:08:28
how to see us build that long-term
00:08:30
muscle where they can think, you know,
00:08:32
much more strategically, much more with
00:08:34
a 10 20 year horizon towards what
00:08:36
they're doing. So they may be in a
00:08:38
turnaround but they're thinking about
00:08:39
okay how do I not just get us back to
00:08:41
where we were but actually build towards
00:08:43
the future or they're really thriving
00:08:45
and flourishing and think how can they
00:08:47
get you know much more u have much more
00:08:49
impact in the world be much more
00:08:50
influential
00:08:52
make a real difference to our customers
00:08:53
or or clients or communities whatever
00:08:55
sector they're in. So I sort of feel
00:08:57
like there's that seasonality piece but
00:08:59
there's also that long-term
00:09:01
um you know existential questions that I
00:09:02
think every every business or
00:09:03
organization should try and try and
00:09:05
focus on. M and where do you think those
00:09:08
questions should be asked and by whom?
00:09:11
>> Good question. I think I think
00:09:13
ultimately the the C and the leadership
00:09:14
team are accountable for it. I think
00:09:16
boards can play an important um senseing
00:09:19
and stewardship role, but there's always
00:09:21
an asymmetry of information of of
00:09:23
involvement as well, right? They're just
00:09:24
much more into the the day-to-day there.
00:09:27
I think a lot of it comes from discovery
00:09:29
and searching and being able to ask good
00:09:32
questions, being much more curious about
00:09:34
the world, asking their customers that
00:09:36
the communities are impacting their
00:09:38
employees of course um what what they
00:09:41
can do more really as well and being
00:09:42
that kind of really thinking about being
00:09:44
being observant. So if I take an
00:09:46
example, um I've been working with
00:09:47
King's College London, um obviously a
00:09:49
really premier uh global research
00:09:51
university. There's been about£100
00:09:53
million pounds of research funding
00:09:55
coming through for for really important
00:09:57
areas around global health and there's
00:09:59
been a big shock to that system with
00:10:00
some of the the aid cuts around the
00:10:02
world and and so on. So what the
00:10:04
university said is look, we've got all
00:10:06
this funding. Are we really pulling it
00:10:08
together in the best way possible? Right
00:10:10
now each researcher each department is
00:10:11
going off on a its own sort of separate
00:10:13
path if you like as well. How can we be
00:10:16
more than the sum of our parts and how
00:10:18
can we create a they've created an
00:10:19
institute and there's a really inspiring
00:10:21
director there called Alia bus and how
00:10:24
can we make um give a really coherent
00:10:26
frame to where we want to go and what
00:10:28
they've decided to do is think about how
00:10:30
do we partner with with universities in
00:10:32
the global south who themselves have
00:10:34
been hit very very hard by some of these
00:10:36
cards how can we help build their
00:10:37
leadership their capabilities their
00:10:39
reputation so they can retract attract
00:10:41
research funding themselves but also
00:10:43
build a new generation of research
00:10:45
searches at the same time. So that's I
00:10:47
think a good example where it's not just
00:10:48
a linear let's go from A to B, but try
00:10:51
to go from uh you know to to many more
00:10:54
levels at the same time.
00:10:56
>> And how how do you think leadership
00:10:58
teams can overcome some of those blind
00:11:00
spots because um you know you don't know
00:11:02
what you don't know essentially. How how
00:11:05
can you kind of hold a mirror up and
00:11:06
actually see behind behind you where you
00:11:09
can never see.
00:11:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's one of
00:11:11
the most challenging uh pieces and I
00:11:12
definitely felt it myself as as a CEO.
00:11:14
And what I found is most teams um among
00:11:17
the 50 or so organizations I've worked
00:11:18
with over these these past years, they
00:11:21
tend to look um outside in rather than
00:11:23
inside out, Erica. So
00:11:25
>> rather than look at themselves and say,
00:11:26
look, what are we doing well? What can
00:11:28
we go? Often we do the kind of SWAT
00:11:29
style thing, you know, it's called
00:11:30
different things and basically that's
00:11:31
what it is.
00:11:32
>> Yeah.
00:11:32
>> Instead, look at the problem itself.
00:11:34
What's the sector you're contributing?
00:11:35
Let's say it's healthcare. Um what's
00:11:37
happening in healthcare? Now we know for
00:11:39
example I've just been working with the
00:11:40
NHS and there's been a whole migration
00:11:43
to community health and and primary
00:11:44
care. If that's happening what does that
00:11:47
mean for how we need to structure the
00:11:49
whole service but also what does it mean
00:11:51
from a leadership capability piece? So
00:11:54
very practically if you have surgeries
00:11:55
GP surgeries how do you make sure that
00:11:59
uh those leading those are senior
00:12:00
partners and so on know what to do to
00:12:02
attract the next generation of trainees
00:12:04
and young doctors and help them create
00:12:06
that long-term pathway. So I think a lot
00:12:08
of it is going back to the problem
00:12:09
itself and saying you know what have we
00:12:11
learned new what's different about our
00:12:12
understanding of that how do we try and
00:12:15
um you know accelerate that in the
00:12:17
future
00:12:19
>> and where did your curiosity about
00:12:21
purpose and human motivation where did
00:12:23
it begin
00:12:24
>> so I'm I'm the son of Indian immigrants
00:12:26
to this country I came when I was about
00:12:27
four we grew up quite a bit in the
00:12:29
Middle East as well my parents worked
00:12:30
there in Saudi Arabia um and I think
00:12:33
there was always quite a lot I I have
00:12:35
incredible parents who did everything
00:12:36
for us to succeed and be successful.
00:12:39
Classic sort of immigrant story. They
00:12:40
were highly educated but come to a new
00:12:42
country had to start again in many ways.
00:12:45
But I think as a result there was quite
00:12:46
a lot of pressure to to pursue extrinsic
00:12:48
definitions of success external. So you
00:12:51
know um high status jobs um financial
00:12:54
success of course um education and those
00:12:56
were all useful to a point but I
00:12:59
realized at some point I had to find my
00:13:00
own path and about 10 or 12 years in I
00:13:03
jumped off the corporate so treadmill
00:13:05
honestly at some point and uh became an
00:13:07
entrepreneur set up these two
00:13:08
organizations that you mentioned earlier
00:13:10
on and it was the best thing I I could
00:13:12
have done. I think I realized that
00:13:13
sometimes we can get trapped by by sort
00:13:15
of success in many ways and defining it
00:13:18
for ourselves going intrinsically
00:13:20
thinking about our own um purpose and
00:13:22
and so on can can matter a lot and and
00:13:25
by a strange coincidence I worked with a
00:13:27
lot of teachers um about 200,000
00:13:29
teachers in those first organizations
00:13:31
helping them think about their purpose
00:13:33
and and meaning in in their profession
00:13:35
and so that sort of made me you know
00:13:37
think a lot about what does it mean at a
00:13:39
large scale you know for for many jobs
00:13:41
in the workforce this is is a problem.
00:13:43
How do we make this something that
00:13:44
really is applicable to anyone at the
00:13:46
same time?
00:13:49
>> And talking a bit about purpose, how how
00:13:52
do organizations, how do leaders avoid
00:13:55
purpose washing and how do you kind of
00:13:57
bring that in to be part a core part of
00:13:59
strategy?
00:14:00
>> Yeah, there's a lot of I mean the
00:14:01
unilver stuff about you know how do
00:14:03
mayonnaise being purpose all that
00:14:04
there's a lot of we can joke about. I
00:14:06
think one of the key things that I found
00:14:08
that's really important is to be really
00:14:10
authentic and distinctive. So I think
00:14:12
about the corporate world. Um I was
00:14:13
helping the BCore movement um about a
00:14:16
year and a half ago. Um they certify
00:14:17
companies to uh signal corporate
00:14:20
responsibility. We had very large
00:14:21
companies like Whole Foods, Coots, etc.
00:14:24
sign up. About 2 or 3% of GDP now in the
00:14:26
UK uh comes to that movement in just a
00:14:29
few years. So I think it would been very
00:14:31
easy for them to say let's go from I
00:14:33
think at that point they were 2% let's
00:14:35
go to 5% over the next 3 years. But they
00:14:38
had a very um um enlightened sort of CEO
00:14:41
and leadership team and it was really
00:14:42
great working with them and helping
00:14:44
think about some of these things. But
00:14:45
they were saying let's rather than do
00:14:46
that only let's look at the underlying
00:14:49
drivers who influences businesses that's
00:14:51
pension funds, regulators, government um
00:14:54
and of course the business community
00:14:55
itself. how can we start to work at some
00:14:58
of the root cause level
00:15:00
>> and and really start to work much more
00:15:02
systemically, much more structurally um
00:15:04
as well as keep growing of course the
00:15:06
number of members and the share of GDP
00:15:08
at the same time. So yeah, I think it's
00:15:10
that sort of being able to flip and and
00:15:12
and think differently about things
00:15:14
>> and was there a defining experience or
00:15:17
person who shaped your view on
00:15:18
leadership as a service? H um I think to
00:15:22
be honest so I I would go and work with
00:15:25
governments a lot Erica in when I was
00:15:26
working in education and see civil
00:15:28
servants often in places like Africa or
00:15:30
India where they were just thrown there
00:15:32
was just so much going on they had to
00:15:34
deal with hundreds of thousands of of
00:15:36
staff members um
00:15:37
>> I think India has about now about 1.2
00:15:39
two million schools to take an example.
00:15:41
Just the scale of these systems was just
00:15:43
unbelievable. to what puts anything in
00:15:45
the UK um you know it sounds like
00:15:46
peanuts in in comparison but they still
00:15:49
were visionaries still very driven uh to
00:15:51
make a difference in very very
00:15:53
challenging uh context and they weren't
00:15:56
always you know fully successful but
00:15:58
there was a real um desire to still make
00:16:00
that change despite the the difficult
00:16:03
odds against them I think as well and so
00:16:05
it made me think you know I live in a
00:16:07
much more privileged um part of the
00:16:08
world I work with many organizations
00:16:10
that are in much better financial shape
00:16:12
for example we must make the most of
00:16:14
what we can surely what we've got there
00:16:16
as well. So I think that's seeing that
00:16:18
you know what is possible under under
00:16:19
challenging circumstances.
00:16:22
>> It's very motivating isn't it?
00:16:23
>> It's very grounding.
00:16:24
>> Yeah it is. And I think they had a very
00:16:26
clear sense you know I define purpose
00:16:27
very simply about how you know how does
00:16:28
our work help and serve others. They had
00:16:31
a very strong sense if I do this that
00:16:32
means a teacher in our system will uh be
00:16:35
able to teach much better. They'll have
00:16:37
more space to do that. They'll feel more
00:16:38
empowered. That will mean the child uh
00:16:41
will be more receptive. They'll build a
00:16:43
better relationship etc. So they could
00:16:45
see all the way through the chain if you
00:16:46
like of impact and see what will my work
00:16:48
sitting in some fancy office or actually
00:16:51
wasn't always that fancy in a ministry
00:16:52
what will that mean at the level of the
00:16:54
the individual I'm ultimately helping
00:16:55
and serving.
00:16:57
>> Yeah that's pretty amazing. You create a
00:16:59
legacy don't you?
00:17:00
>> I think legacy I think my generation is
00:17:02
uh uh is struggling with quite a bit.
00:17:04
I'm almost 50 now I should say Eric and
00:17:06
uh you know we've been joking a lot
00:17:08
about um quiet quitting among Gen Z. I
00:17:10
do quite a bit of standup jokes around
00:17:12
it, but I do think my generation is
00:17:14
quiet leading. I think we're not always
00:17:17
really partnering with the nextgen and
00:17:20
working with them to redevelop a common
00:17:22
understanding of what success looks
00:17:23
like, how to shape the future, what the
00:17:25
strategy of the organization needs to
00:17:27
be, what how we can contribute to being
00:17:29
a better world as well. We've tended to
00:17:31
often we're quite comfortable. We know
00:17:32
what we're doing. We're now working a
00:17:34
bit more remotely as well which gives us
00:17:36
more reasons to sort of insulate
00:17:37
ourselves from the next generation. I
00:17:40
think it's more important than ever for
00:17:41
us to collaborate and that's why you
00:17:43
sent set up this new center at Oxford
00:17:45
side business school where the whole
00:17:47
idea is to help the next gen on the
00:17:49
program think about how they can have
00:17:51
more impact influence with those above
00:17:52
them in the workforce those that will be
00:17:54
leading them um but also to um we bring
00:17:58
in senior leaders all the time to work
00:18:00
with them on those questions. So there's
00:18:02
real dialogue and collaboration and
00:18:04
there are moments of frustration,
00:18:05
inertia, dissonance, all of it. But it's
00:18:08
amazing once that sort of once it clicks
00:18:10
you can get really great collaboration
00:18:11
and just deeper empathy and
00:18:13
understanding between generations at the
00:18:14
same time.
00:18:15
>> Do you think that there are things to be
00:18:17
learned from one generation to the next
00:18:20
older generations to younger and
00:18:22
likewise the other way around?
00:18:23
>> Absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's a
00:18:24
lot of um I think generational trauma I
00:18:26
think that many of us experience. So
00:18:28
things that we passed down to us. I
00:18:29
think if I think of my generation we're
00:18:31
in that sort of seauite typically many
00:18:34
things were sort of given almost like
00:18:35
biblically this is how you do this is
00:18:36
how you lead you we watched all these
00:18:38
films and you were taught you had to
00:18:40
have a step up a lip and be very calm
00:18:41
and all of those elements um I don't
00:18:44
think we often ask why you know why did
00:18:47
we why was that the receive wisdom was
00:18:49
that what were the assumptions of those
00:18:51
times are they relevant to a world now
00:18:52
which is moving at hyper hyper speed is
00:18:55
very volatile has AI as a big feature a
00:18:58
lot of that stuff I think we need to
00:18:59
offload and take away the baggage. Um
00:19:03
yeah, so I think if if the you know my
00:19:04
generation can think a little bit more
00:19:06
reflectively what do we want to keep on
00:19:08
to hold on to from our our past
00:19:10
experience but what what are we meant to
00:19:12
let go of? I think the next gen is much
00:19:14
more
00:19:16
much more in a much more radical spirit.
00:19:18
They really want to reshape the world
00:19:19
much more profoundly and I think we can
00:19:21
look incremental to them and I think
00:19:22
boards can look even more incremental
00:19:25
and I think we have to respond and we
00:19:27
have to show we are open to reshaping
00:19:28
things together. M I gave a talk at a
00:19:32
senior school only a couple of weeks ago
00:19:34
16 17 year olds talking about careers
00:19:37
and kind of pathway forward and I asked
00:19:41
them how many of them wanted to go to
00:19:43
university um I asked them how many of
00:19:45
them wanted to go into business given
00:19:47
that was what I was talking about and
00:19:49
I'd say a smaller percentage than I
00:19:51
thought put their hand up for university
00:19:53
and I would say 80% of the room put
00:19:56
their hands up for some sort of
00:19:58
entrepreneurial business having some
00:20:01
autonomy to kind of manage things
00:20:03
themselves and do things maybe as a
00:20:05
consultant, maybe as a sole consultant.
00:20:08
Um, but there seems to be a very
00:20:10
different view of the art of possible
00:20:15
>> I would say in this uh younger
00:20:17
generation that's kind of coming through
00:20:18
now.
00:20:18
>> Yeah. No, so I'm hosting a dinner on
00:20:20
Wednesday actually at the wine makers
00:20:21
club. I'm a wine fanatic as you know and
00:20:24
um it's all it's with parents actually
00:20:26
who have got older children who have
00:20:28
around you know 19 20 21 who are leaving
00:20:30
university find the job market very very
00:20:33
tough right now and the discussion we're
00:20:35
talking about is sort of and it's with a
00:20:36
collaborative called Matt Nichols a good
00:20:38
friend this idea of family business 2.0
00:20:41
Oh
00:20:42
ter term he invented but this kind of
00:20:44
idea that um you know in in previous
00:20:46
generations we would try and integrate
00:20:48
vertically as families because the
00:20:49
economic environment was so uncertain.
00:20:51
We didn't have those structures of big
00:20:53
corporates or big employers in the same
00:20:55
way. We're kind of throwing the question
00:20:56
out of do we are we going back into that
00:20:58
world where you know if your kids are
00:21:00
living with you when they're 22 or 23 um
00:21:03
they can't afford their own housing the
00:21:05
job market's more precarious. What do we
00:21:07
do as parents? Do we try and uh do we
00:21:10
work with them? Do we create things
00:21:11
together? Do we invest in ventures they
00:21:12
do for example? Whether that's directly
00:21:14
or indirectly what's our role as
00:21:17
parents? So I think it's some
00:21:18
interesting questions and quite tricky
00:21:19
ones to navigate. But again I think if
00:21:21
we get the the conversations going
00:21:23
better between generations that
00:21:26
collaboration can be much more fruitful.
00:21:27
I think that will be a way of life and
00:21:29
that that might simply be just being
00:21:31
encouraging and supportive in the
00:21:32
broader sense or it might be actually we
00:21:34
can do something and um and and do
00:21:37
something very tangibly at the same
00:21:38
time.
00:21:40
And looking at the the kind of younger
00:21:43
generation, there's definitely some
00:21:46
different ideas around ethics perhaps
00:21:48
that maybe a number of generations above
00:21:51
us would would have kind of thought it's
00:21:54
all about profit, it's all about money,
00:21:55
I'm in a business, whereas they have
00:21:57
some some different kind of views around
00:21:58
ethics. I'm interested to know your your
00:22:01
thoughts
00:22:03
if given your kind of BC Corp background
00:22:06
as well and and the work you've done
00:22:07
with them in an organization if they
00:22:10
were to be a profitable organization but
00:22:14
essentially ethically indefensible
00:22:17
>> and wanted to change and to move and to
00:22:19
pivot and do things differently. I know
00:22:21
a number of organizations for instance
00:22:23
that fit into that category that find it
00:22:24
very difficult to hire the younger
00:22:26
generation because they just the whole
00:22:29
concept of what they do just turns them
00:22:31
off. How how do organizations move and
00:22:34
shift into that new space?
00:22:36
>> So I think what what happens a lot I
00:22:38
think we get into a lot of these
00:22:39
questions around greenwashing and all
00:22:40
these things about these big questions
00:22:42
around purpose and so on. I think a lot
00:22:44
of it's more dayto-day and much more
00:22:46
mundane about how we treat people
00:22:47
dayto-day. So, I I was a big I'm not
00:22:50
going to mention the company, but I was
00:22:51
I was using a wine service, an online
00:22:52
thing, and I was a big fan. I bought a
00:22:54
bar about 50 bottles of last couple
00:22:56
years from them. They had an event where
00:22:59
you had to sign up to the event and you
00:23:00
could bring a guest, but the guest had
00:23:02
to sign up for their service and put
00:23:04
their credit card down and all this kind
00:23:07
of stuff. And I I just I just cancelled
00:23:08
my script. I look, this is not I almost
00:23:10
said like, what would a Gen Z think? I
00:23:11
need to do the same thing. This is not
00:23:13
it's not that it's you know some deeply
00:23:15
it's not corruption in some way but it's
00:23:17
it just doesn't feel right why why are
00:23:19
you doing this if the service is good
00:23:20
someone will sign up why do you need to
00:23:22
force people um into this kind of stuff
00:23:24
as well so I do think a lot of it is
00:23:27
less about finding these benign
00:23:28
industries where everything's perfect as
00:23:31
we know companies or industries are
00:23:32
perfect that way but each day are we
00:23:34
trying to have that intention to do
00:23:36
something positive treat people with
00:23:37
dignity with respect that's a lot easier
00:23:40
than we actually think and I think jenz
00:23:42
can be quite helpful to collaborate
00:23:44
around that and perhaps less critical,
00:23:47
perhaps less of a council culture and
00:23:48
more of what do we practically do to
00:23:50
help our customers feel more, you know,
00:23:53
better in their lives, our staff to feel
00:23:55
more valued and able to flourish um
00:23:58
communities around us as well.
00:24:01
>> And how do you help leadership teams
00:24:03
rediscover meaning when they've become
00:24:05
disconnected from it?
00:24:07
>> I think what happens is we sort of end
00:24:09
up playing the game. I don't know if
00:24:10
you'd agree from your your experience,
00:24:11
but there's a sort of metaphor business,
00:24:13
especially in large corporates or even
00:24:15
medium large corporates. There's a sense
00:24:17
you you're playing a game here. This is
00:24:19
all a game and this is all sort of
00:24:20
somewhat artificial. We're all here to a
00:24:23
bit like Game of Monopoly actually
00:24:24
often. I think a lot of it is reconnect
00:24:26
people to say, "Look, you're not this is
00:24:27
not a game, right? You're you're
00:24:28
actually making whether you like it or
00:24:29
not, you're impacting people positively
00:24:31
and negatively.
00:24:32
>> Let's really be honest about what that
00:24:34
looks like. What what is the reality out
00:24:36
there in the world you're operating in?"
00:24:38
So um if you I've done work with groups
00:24:40
like L'Oreal and so on if you're even
00:24:42
something the world of beauty for
00:24:44
example um that has lots of questions to
00:24:46
think about but what is the impact
00:24:48
you're having um how can we be positive
00:24:51
role model in that how can you make this
00:24:53
a positive experience for those who are
00:24:55
buying your products for example um all
00:24:58
the way through so yeah I think there's
00:24:59
a lot that can be just with a bit of
00:25:01
thought a bit of reflection stepping
00:25:03
back it can be powerful
00:25:05
>> so I presume the disconnection
00:25:08
it often comes from a disconnection from
00:25:11
either the product that or service that
00:25:12
they're selling or the stakeholders that
00:25:14
sit around that organization.
00:25:16
>> So either it's around the service
00:25:17
product often and not even about um the
00:25:21
product intrinsically. It's more about
00:25:23
what's around the product. Are we doing
00:25:24
everything we can to so many I think the
00:25:26
beauty actually is a good example.
00:25:28
There's been so much more focus now on
00:25:30
positive images trying to make these
00:25:32
things feel the idea that we can all be
00:25:34
normal. we're not trying to create some
00:25:36
kind of um some crazy superhuman um you
00:25:39
know image of what PT looks like or
00:25:41
wellness looks like and so on. Um so I
00:25:43
think that's one example where that
00:25:44
there have been some positive trends.
00:25:46
There's been negative stuff as well but
00:25:47
in general there's some positive things.
00:25:49
So it's more going back to saying in the
00:25:51
world we're in people are going to be
00:25:52
buying these products for a long time.
00:25:54
>> That's a reality rather than sort of
00:25:57
think about should there be it's more
00:25:59
how can we try and make that better for
00:26:00
them? How can we make it a more a more
00:26:03
positive journey with with those
00:26:05
elements? How do we bring stakeholders
00:26:06
along on that journey and engage in a
00:26:08
conversation with them at the same time?
00:26:10
>> And how would you suggest that
00:26:11
organizations start to make those steps
00:26:13
in that direction?
00:26:15
>> I think first thing is we start with
00:26:16
your employees actually. They often have
00:26:18
eyes and ears. Often as we get more
00:26:20
senior organizations, we get more and
00:26:21
more detached from the from the front
00:26:23
line,
00:26:23
>> whatever that is, whether in the army or
00:26:25
if we're selling, you know, whatever
00:26:26
toilet paper or whatever it might be.
00:26:28
So, how do we reconnect with those
00:26:30
younger employees? How do they see the
00:26:32
world? How are they interacting with our
00:26:34
customers, clients, stakeholders,
00:26:35
communities? And let's start to
00:26:38
understand their perspective.
00:26:40
Um, if we do the same on our end and
00:26:42
those in the seauite on the boards,
00:26:44
let's come together and say what's
00:26:45
common and what's different and how do
00:26:47
we try and understand that piece. The
00:26:49
the work I've been doing in Oxford is
00:26:51
just about four things that are making
00:26:53
big generational difference. One is
00:26:54
around perspective. We're seeing the
00:26:57
world differently. You know, we're we're
00:26:58
perhaps more incremental. Perhaps the
00:27:00
next gen is a little bit more radical.
00:27:02
Um, authenticity. I think we have a a
00:27:05
view of of the world of work being a bit
00:27:06
more of a game. I think there's more of
00:27:08
a desire uh to be more authentic at work
00:27:11
from from Gen Z. Connection. I think
00:27:13
we've focused a lot on um often the
00:27:16
efficiency of connection rather than the
00:27:18
quality of it and the um and the depth
00:27:23
of that connection. And the last thing
00:27:24
in terms of excellence, I think we tend
00:27:26
to have a more absolute definition.
00:27:28
there's a sort of floor or ceiling. I
00:27:30
think Gen Z tends to have more of a a
00:27:32
mastery mindset. We want to go on a
00:27:33
journey towards excellence and neither
00:27:36
view the spectrums are right or wrong.
00:27:38
It's a where different sort of ends of
00:27:39
the spectrum. How do we find a middle
00:27:41
ground around those elements of pace
00:27:43
there's four sort of pieces there. So I
00:27:46
think actually exploring them, making
00:27:47
them open, discussing them, building
00:27:49
them into company culture, think about
00:27:51
how we run things in terms of processes,
00:27:53
structures can be really gamechanging in
00:27:55
terms of future proofing. you know, both
00:27:57
generations feeling at ease and able to
00:27:59
to to prosper as as the organization or
00:28:01
company grows.
00:28:03
>> And how how can organizations get those
00:28:07
candid kind of insights, feedback?
00:28:11
Obviously, the culture needs to be well
00:28:14
good enough, well established enough for
00:28:16
people to feel comfortable speaking
00:28:19
truth to power because otherwise there's
00:28:20
a different challenge there altogether.
00:28:22
But how how do they they kind of start?
00:28:24
I know that lots of companies do
00:28:26
surveys, but arguably the number of
00:28:28
people that fill them out or the
00:28:30
purpose. I remember one survey that I
00:28:32
was sent through when I was in an
00:28:34
organization as a consultant. I
00:28:35
shouldn't have received it. I wasn't an
00:28:36
employee, but I did. And they had little
00:28:38
smiley faces underneath like one to
00:28:40
five. And and the first the top kind of
00:28:44
two had green smiley faces of of kind of
00:28:47
different levels of smile. Um, and then
00:28:50
as soon as you got to kind of three, it
00:28:52
was like a complete flatline. And then
00:28:54
as soon as you got to the the bottom
00:28:56
two, they were red. So instantly you
00:28:58
draw people into a certain um output.
00:29:02
And even I looked at it as a as somebody
00:29:04
that obviously had no skin in the game.
00:29:06
And I thought, wow, okay, you're the
00:29:09
smiley face is definitely the draw to
00:29:10
this is the right answer. Click that
00:29:12
button rather than just having numbers.
00:29:14
>> Um, how can organizations make sure
00:29:16
they're not so biased, let's say. Um and
00:29:18
also getting the the real truth about it
00:29:21
because a survey sometimes is a very
00:29:22
flat piece of data.
00:29:24
>> I think I I've worked at god probably
00:29:26
dozen hundreds of pulse surveys over
00:29:28
these past years and I think always find
00:29:29
that there's a sort of passenger driver
00:29:31
dynamic right somehow the driver is the
00:29:33
you know the leadership team or whatever
00:29:36
um everyone else is is the passenger and
00:29:38
there's a sense of that the the
00:29:39
passenger is giving feedback to the
00:29:40
driver. I think a much better metaphor
00:29:43
is that we're all driving this together.
00:29:44
Some of us may be towards the front of
00:29:45
the the train or the car, some of us may
00:29:47
be in the middle um and so on. But we're
00:29:49
all in this together. I think anything
00:29:51
we do to avoid this sense that um that
00:29:54
there's that kind of driver passenger
00:29:56
dynamic. So a lot of it is just having
00:29:58
conversations and it might be um I I am
00:30:00
ending up actually being quite a bit a
00:30:02
lot of kind of generational mediator in
00:30:03
what I'm doing right now talking to Gen
00:30:06
Z first or younger employees in the
00:30:07
workforce understanding their so talking
00:30:09
to perhaps say the partners of a law
00:30:11
firm and then trying to bring them
00:30:13
together and say this is what I'm
00:30:14
hearing on this side this is what I'm
00:30:15
hearing this these are some of the the
00:30:17
points of similarity let's embrace them
00:30:19
how can we go even further with them
00:30:21
often we forget there's actually a lot
00:30:22
we do agree on on these points of
00:30:24
difference they tend to relate to this
00:30:26
kind idea of pace you know there's four
00:30:28
areas um how how do we resolve them how
00:30:31
do we address them and how do we find a
00:30:32
good middle ground and middle doesn't
00:30:34
mean exactly in the middle it means
00:30:36
based on those things it requires
00:30:38
reflective leaders though I think who
00:30:39
are open to listen it also reflect
00:30:42
requires um younger employees to also be
00:30:44
open to understand that there are
00:30:45
realities of running a business they've
00:30:47
got to be it's got to be financially
00:30:48
sound got to make sure that they're
00:30:50
healthy first and foremost so I think
00:30:52
but a lot of it if we can have a safe
00:30:54
neutral space where um we can talk
00:30:57
together and really de develop ideas
00:30:59
together. We we live in a very polarized
00:31:00
world as we know more generally Erica
00:31:02
and
00:31:02
>> that's really shut down a lot of the
00:31:04
discussion the sense of us creating
00:31:06
constructively together um across
00:31:08
generations and and more widely
00:31:10
>> and people need to feel that they can
00:31:13
voice their perspective without um
00:31:16
having potential backlash from that
00:31:19
whether it's whatever obviously within
00:31:21
the realms of you know what's decent and
00:31:24
right and fair for everybody but having
00:31:27
to kind of tow the line sometimes on a
00:31:30
particular strong character's
00:31:31
perspective and feeling very much having
00:31:34
to keep their own perspective boxed and
00:31:38
quiet can be quite a challenge. How do
00:31:41
you how do you balance the the different
00:31:43
generations? Because the different
00:31:45
generations don't necessarily perfectly
00:31:47
fit in in an organization that all of
00:31:50
the younger people sit at the bottom of
00:31:52
the food chain and all the older people
00:31:54
sit at the top because you can you can
00:31:56
end up with all sorts of different
00:31:58
dynamics and that can really change a
00:32:00
leadership team if you have somebody
00:32:02
quite young. I was 32 when I was a
00:32:04
seauite governance professional and that
00:32:08
was quite young compared to everybody
00:32:10
else that was around me
00:32:12
>> and that created some tension of itself
00:32:16
not purposefully but just a different
00:32:18
generation different conversations and
00:32:20
it it's a shift isn't it
00:32:23
>> how do people make that shift
00:32:26
>> yeah so I think we're now I think
00:32:27
Patrick Dun's done some really good work
00:32:28
on this but there's there's now five
00:32:30
generations in the workforce and So um
00:32:32
that's the most we've ever had really in
00:32:34
any meaningful way, tangible way. So
00:32:36
that's a key piece. So it's less about
00:32:38
binary, it's less about one gender
00:32:40
versus another. I think it's another way
00:32:41
of thinking about inclusion
00:32:44
um and creating cultures that really
00:32:45
allow everyone to find that that sweet
00:32:47
spot for themselves I think is is part
00:32:51
of that that that sort of battle there.
00:32:52
I would say though I think seuite
00:32:54
leaders themselves feel quite attacked
00:32:55
right now. M
00:32:57
>> so I feel many who've been on panels in
00:32:59
front of their employees and they will
00:33:00
say something probably a little bit off
00:33:02
color or slightly out of context and
00:33:04
they will get hammered by by by the
00:33:06
younger employees. So I think it's
00:33:08
two-way thing. I think it's definitely
00:33:09
true that many youngies don't feel
00:33:10
particularly emotionally or
00:33:11
psychologically safe to express things
00:33:13
for sure. But I think many sees are they
00:33:16
are quite quitting. They're quite
00:33:17
leading too because they feel if I'm
00:33:19
honest about stuff. So if I'm honest
00:33:21
what it takes to be successful to really
00:33:23
get to the top of their organization,
00:33:25
they will be criticized or maybe even
00:33:27
attacked by those um earlier on. So I
00:33:30
sort of feel like both sides are sort of
00:33:31
switching off and defending each
00:33:34
themselves rather than really coming
00:33:35
together and connecting and saying let's
00:33:37
find a common point of view here
00:33:39
>> and you you reconnect them by bringing
00:33:41
them together and allowing them space.
00:33:44
>> Yeah, I think I think in person is is
00:33:45
powerful. I think a lot of it though
00:33:50
is
00:33:51
getting a sense of what the issues
00:33:52
really are. It's classic sort of
00:33:54
mediation in many regards when it comes
00:33:55
to this kind of work. Um and sometimes
00:33:57
it's about trying to find a middle
00:33:58
ground between sometimes it's about
00:34:00
finding another alternative that will
00:34:01
actually break the deadlock altogether.
00:34:04
So I was talking remember talking to one
00:34:06
professional services firm where there
00:34:08
was a big thing about work life balance
00:34:10
right and Gen Z employees were often
00:34:12
saying look I I really want work life
00:34:13
balance for that's an important value
00:34:16
and the managers of the organization
00:34:17
were saying yeah but I also I'm a human
00:34:19
too and what if you if you go down this
00:34:20
route I'm going to be the one who's
00:34:22
deeply unbalanced and it was super
00:34:24
simple stuff but actually seeing that
00:34:26
and hearing there was a a personal
00:34:28
consequence to all of this stuff really
00:34:30
helped unlock it for them and we some
00:34:32
new ways of thinking about how do we all
00:34:34
just achieve better work, really high
00:34:36
quality work together, uh much more
00:34:38
meaningful, much more client friendly.
00:34:40
Let's take out some of the bells and
00:34:41
whistles that was taking up a lot of
00:34:42
time that the client didn't really
00:34:43
value, but would actually make almost
00:34:46
make them feel that you were providing a
00:34:47
better service to them.
00:34:49
>> Yes. In in organizations, you can have
00:34:54
um different generations
00:34:56
um in different sectors, whether that's
00:34:58
or different levels of management,
00:35:00
whether they are employees or very
00:35:02
senior. How do you blend a variety of
00:35:05
different generations within let's say
00:35:07
the kind of lowest tier of um employees
00:35:10
or even from my own experience I was 32
00:35:12
when I stepped into um the boardroom
00:35:14
that created some tension of itself
00:35:17
because I was all of a sudden in the
00:35:19
seauite um level of people how how do
00:35:22
organizations manage that
00:35:25
>> yeah so we've got five generations that
00:35:26
work nar as we know and uh probably the
00:35:29
most in terms of just real magnitude of
00:35:31
of a piece and I think the way that our
00:35:32
pension systems are working and so that
00:35:34
probably might continue for quite a
00:35:35
while. Maybe we'll get to six, who
00:35:36
knows? But um I think that's a really
00:35:39
exciting opportunity because we're no
00:35:40
longer it's no longer sort of binary.
00:35:42
We're not looking up or looking down.
00:35:44
We're looking both ways. And so the
00:35:46
group I teach at Oxford, for example, on
00:35:48
the generations lab course, what we're
00:35:50
talking a lot about how do you have
00:35:52
influence upwards and downwards. So at
00:35:53
the beginning of your career, it's
00:35:55
probably going to be more upwards. It's
00:35:56
going to be think about how do you
00:35:57
impact those above you and influence
00:35:59
them and try to help shape the world in
00:36:01
different ways.
00:36:02
>> But almost certainly from the beginning
00:36:04
you're going to have teams right after
00:36:05
you finish the MBA who you're also
00:36:07
leading and trying to be a role model
00:36:09
towards as well. And it's a bit like you
00:36:11
know um my wife has um recently become a
00:36:12
therapist and uh she still has to do
00:36:15
therapy herself and it's really
00:36:16
important to sort of see both sides of
00:36:18
it actually to u it makes us I think
00:36:20
more reflective it makes us I think more
00:36:23
self more self-critic in a good way in
00:36:25
that regard as well. So yeah, so I don't
00:36:27
think it's about one way up, but it's
00:36:30
really thinking about how do I take that
00:36:31
generation perspective to everything I
00:36:33
do, whichever way that issue might be
00:36:36
facing. An issue might be more relevant
00:36:38
for for Gen Z. It might be more relevant
00:36:40
towards seauite. I find many seuite
00:36:42
leaders now feeling quite vulnerable.
00:36:43
They're not able to be fully honest
00:36:44
themselves when they speak at public
00:36:46
forums or even internal employee forums.
00:36:48
They feel a bit guarded. Um I think
00:36:51
we've got to think about how we can
00:36:52
attack those issues from different uh
00:36:55
different points in the generational
00:36:56
spectrum.
00:36:57
>> Yeah. And the kind of the organizations
00:37:00
as you say where those CEOs are feeling
00:37:03
quite guarded. I think you're right.
00:37:05
there's so many more people being so
00:37:08
much more vocal um about how they feel
00:37:11
and we see that in politics um and we
00:37:14
see that in organizations um and we see
00:37:16
that in people standing up and being
00:37:19
those advocates for particular
00:37:20
perspectives in the world.
00:37:23
>> How how do you manage that? Because
00:37:25
obviously as a CEO you also need to be
00:37:27
able to lead and if you feel like you
00:37:30
can't speak your truth to everybody else
00:37:32
that's obviously can be a limiting
00:37:34
factor. it can hold you back.
00:37:36
>> Um, but also you have to understand who
00:37:39
sits within your organization and who
00:37:40
those stakeholders are wider than just
00:37:42
those employees.
00:37:43
>> It's a it's a big balance, right?
00:37:45
>> It's a tricky one. I think ultimately
00:37:46
you have to stand stand for something as
00:37:48
a leader. I think you know our prime
00:37:49
minister in the UK has had this right
00:37:51
where we won an election in a way almost
00:37:53
being the opposite of something else
00:37:55
that was there rather than being
00:37:57
particularly clear what really we were
00:37:59
standing for. And I think that's now
00:38:00
coming back to bite very heavily. And
00:38:02
it's a real I'm sure I'm really hopeful
00:38:04
they'll find a way out, but it's it's
00:38:05
tricky period to be in right now. So I
00:38:07
do think it's important to, you know, in
00:38:09
that back to that definition of I'm
00:38:10
helping people reach places they
00:38:11
wouldn't reach otherwise. We've got to
00:38:13
define what that new place is, why it's
00:38:15
better, and we've got to stand our
00:38:17
ground and say this is important. I know
00:38:19
there'll be some tough um compromises,
00:38:21
some maybe some sacrifices along the way
00:38:22
to get there, but let's really talk
00:38:24
about that new place. Why is it
00:38:26
exciting? Why will everyone benefit?
00:38:28
where it would be a better place for us
00:38:30
all. That's the bit I think leaders now
00:38:32
find quite tricky to do. It's become I
00:38:34
think leadership has become management.
00:38:36
It's become mechanized.
00:38:37
>> It's become a series of quarterly
00:38:39
templates and results and earnings and
00:38:41
all these things we're comfortable. You
00:38:43
know, we see so much on the board
00:38:44
attention go to rather that deeper
00:38:46
question. What are we actually trying to
00:38:47
to achieve? Where are we trying to go?
00:38:50
How do we all get there together? The
00:38:51
core of it.
00:38:52
>> Yeah. And looking more at founders, they
00:38:57
can find it quite difficult to step back
00:38:59
from operations as the team and the
00:39:02
business grows and becomes a bigger
00:39:05
organization. What have you learned
00:39:07
about leading through that sort of a
00:39:09
situation? Yeah, I was I was actually a
00:39:11
very fascinating discussion with a group
00:39:13
of um um folks who work with founders
00:39:15
last week actually and there was a um a
00:39:16
psychotherapist who came um and talked
00:39:18
and she was talking about how many
00:39:20
founders actually have had them some
00:39:21
kind of generational trauma themselves.
00:39:23
They've had often it's fathers for
00:39:25
example who perhaps um left or or passed
00:39:28
away early and they want to prove
00:39:29
something to the world as well if it's
00:39:31
if it's guys and perhaps the other way
00:39:32
for for female founders. But um I think
00:39:36
there's something very powerful about
00:39:37
founders that we need them to change the
00:39:39
world. we won't be able to get to where
00:39:40
we need to get to without that energy,
00:39:42
that creative creative destruction
00:39:44
that's part of their work as well. At
00:39:46
the same time, I think there's something
00:39:47
about um helping founders see
00:39:52
something beyond them and not completely
00:39:55
imsh what they do versus what the
00:39:56
organization needs. And I I stepped out
00:39:59
of my second organization that I founded
00:40:01
because I felt I there was founder
00:40:02
syndrome. I was being the constraint to
00:40:04
growth after a point of being at 10
00:40:06
years. We got to very big scale. it
00:40:08
wasn't my skill set. I really enjoyed
00:40:10
the more nimble entrepreneurial days as
00:40:12
well. But I think often we need to give
00:40:14
space founders to think about
00:40:16
um where they are. They're really the
00:40:18
right place for their organization at
00:40:19
this point. But also what do they want
00:40:21
to do next? Often a lot of it's they get
00:40:23
stuck because they don't know what the
00:40:25
next step is. They can still have impact
00:40:27
influence in a different way. It could
00:40:28
be as an adviser, an investor for
00:40:31
example. Um yeah, lots of other
00:40:33
permutations there as well. They could
00:40:34
set up something new in a new area. But
00:40:37
helping them feel positive and bring
00:40:38
that energy somewhere else I found is
00:40:41
really important for founders so they
00:40:42
can unlock something new and then they
00:40:44
really leave a strong legacy and
00:40:46
succession with their existing um
00:40:48
organization at the same time. And that
00:40:50
sort of principled approach can also
00:40:52
really help I guess as an organization
00:40:54
grows because as they take those hats
00:40:56
off and start passing them to other
00:40:58
people that sit within their
00:40:59
organization they need to start
00:41:02
relinquishing some of that
00:41:03
responsibility and giving that trust to
00:41:06
others otherwise you end up stifling all
00:41:08
sorts of growth and opportunities and
00:41:10
also the people that are in your
00:41:12
organization.
00:41:13
>> Yeah. And I think back to that kind of
00:41:15
hour hand, minute hand, secondhand
00:41:16
metaphor. If if as leaders, we want to
00:41:18
play at the the hourhand level as a
00:41:20
seuite or the CEO level. Um we need to
00:41:23
make sure they're strong people at the
00:41:24
second and the minute hand as well. So
00:41:26
how do we give them that autonomy? We
00:41:27
don't um second guess decisions. We
00:41:29
don't try and get to operationally. We
00:41:31
make sure that the overall metrics and
00:41:34
performance is going well, but we really
00:41:36
focus on where how we building the new
00:41:37
place, that new destination. That's
00:41:39
where I find the most healthy um teams
00:41:42
work. and everyone knows where they fit
00:41:44
in. They see it all come together. They
00:41:46
can be honest with each other's
00:41:47
different points and then it's easier
00:41:49
for a founder to know this is a time to
00:41:52
um yeah almost my I've got it to the
00:41:54
place I wanted to get to. Now someone
00:41:55
else needs to come with new energy take
00:41:58
you to that that next place from there.
00:42:00
M there's definitely been a lot of
00:42:02
discussion particularly on social media
00:42:05
about founders kind of leaving and then
00:42:08
the organization crumbles because they
00:42:10
were part of the glue that held it all
00:42:11
together and a let's say a hired CEO can
00:42:15
never quite have the same level of
00:42:17
passion as the person that created in
00:42:18
the first place. Do you think that's
00:42:20
true?
00:42:21
>> Definitely seen lots of it and I've I've
00:42:23
stepped into help quite a few of those
00:42:24
situations. I think of back to the sort
00:42:26
of a wine analogy, you know, you almost
00:42:28
want to have culture in organization
00:42:29
like a bottle of wine. We look at the
00:42:30
label, look at what's in there, what
00:42:32
grapes are in there. It needs to be
00:42:34
defined and codified. It can mature. It
00:42:36
can evolve as any good windups, but
00:42:38
there's something already quite um
00:42:40
strong as a foundation for that that
00:42:42
that that bottle to to begin with. Then
00:42:44
I think the where that happens where
00:42:46
that where things collapse or um is
00:42:49
where there hasn't been enough attention
00:42:50
to really making things
00:42:53
more explicit, more understood, more
00:42:54
codified, especially as organizations
00:42:57
grow. So as new people come in, culture
00:42:59
can get quite watered down. It can get
00:43:01
diluted. How do you really keep that
00:43:03
that sort of the integrity of that
00:43:04
bottle all the way through?
00:43:07
>> And moving more to kind of inflection
00:43:10
points. So you often describe leadership
00:43:13
as being tested at moments of
00:43:15
inflection.
00:43:16
>> Um can you share a time when you saw
00:43:19
that tested kind of up close um either
00:43:22
your own journey or with a leader that
00:43:24
you've supported?
00:43:25
>> So um I was the CEO of an education
00:43:27
organization at that time. We were
00:43:29
working in about um 300 schools at that
00:43:31
point in India and the government of
00:43:33
Delhi came to us and said we really want
00:43:35
um want to work with you, want to
00:43:37
collaborate, partner with you, but we
00:43:38
want you to get to 20,000 schools almost
00:43:41
overnight.
00:43:42
And um I tried for four to four or five
00:43:45
times to actually just shut it down and
00:43:47
sort of not get into it. Felt too crazy,
00:43:49
too um uh almost too mystical to try and
00:43:52
achieve. But they were just being so
00:43:55
persistent. At one point they said,
00:43:56
"Look, you know, either go big or go
00:43:57
home. we'll we'll stop you know the
00:43:59
partnership altogether if you don't
00:44:00
scale in the way we need we need you to
00:44:02
really be um working with every child in
00:44:05
our system and to be fair you know going
00:44:07
back to boards our board was really
00:44:08
great about that they say look this is
00:44:10
the story where this is the reality
00:44:11
we're in we're not sure we can how to
00:44:13
get there exactly but we trust that
00:44:15
you'll be able to find your way through
00:44:17
our job as a board is let's meet every
00:44:19
quarter as we do now but let's focus on
00:44:21
less about current metrics because they
00:44:23
were close to relevant now as you go on
00:44:25
this new journey let's look at the the
00:44:28
direction you're going and what do we
00:44:29
need to to to know as you go along that
00:44:31
you're on track towards that new
00:44:32
direction. So are staff able to lead um
00:44:36
in a much more leverage way? Could they
00:44:37
work with people already in the system
00:44:39
and get them to more of the day-to-day
00:44:41
work of our approach? Could they uh were
00:44:44
we really getting senior level buy from
00:44:46
the very top of government so we could
00:44:48
get the right cultural changes into the
00:44:49
system for example? So it was a kind of
00:44:52
yes, we're very much there to support
00:44:53
you but we want to show see that you're
00:44:56
really on track. you're not deluding
00:44:57
yourselves. This can be done. Let's use
00:44:59
the next 18 months to test whether we
00:45:01
can go on this new journey of
00:45:03
inflection, but if there are any sort of
00:45:04
roadblocks, let's come back and think
00:45:06
about things again and maybe slow things
00:45:08
down if we need to along the way. So, it
00:45:10
was a great example of board not saying
00:45:11
yes or no or trying to um out guess me
00:45:14
as the CEO, but saying yeah, we we
00:45:17
understand where you're coming from. Let
00:45:18
us be the kind of guard rails around
00:45:20
that. Let's ask good questions and make
00:45:23
sure that you're really going on the
00:45:24
journey in the in the best way possible.
00:45:26
And it really helps the CEO when you
00:45:28
have that support of the board knowing
00:45:30
that they are trying to set you up for
00:45:32
success. Okay? They understand that
00:45:34
there could be some challenges along the
00:45:36
way and it may not be successful.
00:45:38
>> But they're there with you. That must
00:45:40
have really helped how you how you dealt
00:45:43
with the situation.
00:45:44
>> And I was very entrepreneur. So I wasn't
00:45:46
a sort of st I wasn't a you know a
00:45:48
mature se who wanted to keep things very
00:45:50
stable. Well, I think what the best
00:45:52
boards I've seen at least work with um
00:45:54
they tend to help the CEO be the best
00:45:56
version of themselves they can be.
00:45:58
They're not trying to change the person.
00:45:59
They realize they've got a certain
00:46:01
style, certain approach, but they are
00:46:02
trying to make sure they are um that
00:46:05
they really flourish in that
00:46:06
perspective, but they don't also um hit
00:46:08
any kind of jihari window areas, areas
00:46:10
where you can't see ourselves or we have
00:46:12
these blind spots. So, just making sure
00:46:14
that nothing goes wrong along that
00:46:15
piece. They're very very supportive
00:46:17
especially in that growth stage when
00:46:19
it's sort of more founder driven and so
00:46:20
on but they are also critical friends
00:46:23
and honest and open but always in a way
00:46:26
of supporting the CM leadership team to
00:46:27
get to where they want to go. I think
00:46:29
where things break down is when the
00:46:30
board starts playing um almost wants to
00:46:33
own the strategy drive and there's a
00:46:35
myth in corporate and most organ that
00:46:38
board set strategy. I think that's
00:46:39
really it's rare I think as well maybe
00:46:42
technically perhaps in a fiduciary sense
00:46:44
but there's such an asymmetry of of of
00:46:46
of involvementally for most sports that
00:46:49
that isn't realistic in most cases to in
00:46:51
my knowledge anyway
00:46:53
>> and I suppose it works the other way
00:46:54
round as well. I've got from my own
00:46:57
experience of running a business and
00:46:59
having um two people that sit as
00:47:01
independent directors on my board
00:47:03
>> that as the CEO, you can be in
00:47:06
situations where you ask questions of
00:47:09
them or you're presenting a particular
00:47:12
idea to them and they they do come back
00:47:14
and whilst they are supportive, they
00:47:17
also respect that you have a a different
00:47:19
perspective and a different approach.
00:47:21
And although they may have felt that the
00:47:23
direction of travel on reading the
00:47:25
agenda in the papers was a certain way,
00:47:27
they're actually happy to be um I
00:47:30
suppose steered to a certain extent. Not
00:47:33
pushed out of what they believe.
00:47:35
>> That's not quite what I'm saying, but
00:47:37
more um their eyes are opened to a
00:47:39
different way because that CEO, they
00:47:41
trust in that CEO as much as they are
00:47:44
given trust to that CEO.
00:47:46
>> Yeah. The best board meetings I I've
00:47:47
attended I've helped um co set up quite
00:47:49
a few of these is where all the sort of
00:47:51
more formal stuff the report the
00:47:53
performance overview all of that side is
00:47:54
done in the in 45 minutes and then
00:47:56
there's two hours of open discussion of
00:47:58
whatever at that point is the most
00:47:59
pressing issue it's it's also anchored
00:48:01
on the strategy and milestones and so on
00:48:03
but it's open to discuss whatever it is
00:48:05
and it genuinely is a discussion and the
00:48:07
co will say look I'm really torn between
00:48:09
these are three paths I could take
00:48:10
here's the situation I've got these
00:48:12
options I'm not sure about the financial
00:48:15
implications of A or I'm worried about
00:48:16
the people implications of B and it's a
00:48:19
genuine discussion where people are
00:48:20
creating together and doing that as
00:48:22
well. So it's not not performative.
00:48:24
You're not going in to play a game. It's
00:48:26
really one where you're trying to use
00:48:27
all of that external perspective the
00:48:29
board has that their diverse strengths
00:48:30
and and skills and it's additive to the
00:48:33
company itself. But I don't think that
00:48:35
many I you know better than I do, but
00:48:36
not that many board meetings work in in
00:48:39
quite that way.
00:48:40
>> No. No, they definitely don't. Um and
00:48:43
that is something that's always strikes
00:48:45
me as interesting.
00:48:47
>> Um before I stepped out to be a CEO, I
00:48:51
was advising boards. Therefore, it was
00:48:52
very easy for me to have an objective
00:48:54
independent perspective and say you
00:48:56
should be using the time with the board
00:48:58
to help air some of your ideas. They're
00:49:00
there to help move things forward. And
00:49:02
if you feel that you've only got to you
00:49:04
can only present them with the finished
00:49:05
article, that's never going to it's
00:49:08
never going to help. Uh, and the board
00:49:09
is then pretty much just a box tick.
00:49:12
It's like, okay, this is what we're
00:49:14
being presented. This is the answer. Do
00:49:16
we agree? Don't we agree? If we don't
00:49:17
agree, maybe we fall out with the CEO or
00:49:20
create some unnecessary tension. Is it
00:49:22
worth it? How do we put where do we put
00:49:24
the pressure? Do we say yes or no? Which
00:49:26
of the agenda items do we agree on or
00:49:28
which ones do we, you know, want to push
00:49:30
a little bit? And then it becomes a
00:49:32
game. But it can becomes a game from the
00:49:33
other side as well of like trying to
00:49:35
keep um tensions um low. essentially.
00:49:39
But you need that curiosity and you need
00:49:41
those discussions that are a bit more
00:49:44
interesting, a bit more exciting. You
00:49:46
need to have that disagreement. You just
00:49:47
need to be respectful disagreement.
00:49:49
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the
00:49:50
generation element plays out in boards.
00:49:52
So I see a lot of boards which are
00:49:53
basically captured by usually a couple
00:49:54
of people who've been there for a long
00:49:56
time. they may formally be the chair or
00:49:58
or not but implicit everyone sort of
00:50:00
cowtows to them and it's um there's not
00:50:03
much disscent and much much genuine
00:50:05
discussion and debate and it becomes
00:50:06
very you have that's the I think the
00:50:08
irony of the board story is that we've
00:50:10
been bringing many more diverse people
00:50:11
to boards but in terms of cognitive
00:50:13
diversity it sort of still hasn't really
00:50:15
opened up different ways of thinking
00:50:17
different ways of exploring issues and I
00:50:19
think that needs to shake up generate
00:50:20
often the younger generations of board
00:50:22
members will often now come on boards
00:50:24
>> there's a very strong implicit um
00:50:26
message that your job is just to stay
00:50:28
largely quiet. You can make a comment
00:50:30
here, but you're not really going to
00:50:31
rock the boat too much. And that's why I
00:50:33
think when we get into our biggest
00:50:34
problems is when that that isn't
00:50:36
happening at the board level also.
00:50:39
>> And what gives you hope about the next
00:50:41
generation of leaders?
00:50:43
>> Um I just think there so there's just
00:50:46
less crap. I think it's just more
00:50:47
they're much wanting to cut to the the
00:50:48
chase. I think they haven't been
00:50:51
all of these things are not good things.
00:50:52
They weren't able to get perhaps on the
00:50:53
housing ladder in the same way we were.
00:50:55
they weren't able to perhaps or perhaps
00:50:57
aren't able to have the same security
00:50:58
early on in their careers. Um they
00:51:00
didn't have the same intimacy I mean in
00:51:02
terms of um professional in terms of
00:51:05
really having mentors and nurturing
00:51:07
perhaps the way we did in our early
00:51:08
careers especially in more structured
00:51:10
job environments. But as a result, I
00:51:12
think they're much less tolerant of of
00:51:14
the nonsense we put up with, I think, as
00:51:15
a world. And much more willing to get to
00:51:16
the chase and say, why are we doing
00:51:18
this? And I think there's a real desire
00:51:20
to know why why do we need to do it this
00:51:21
way? And some of that is naive. Some can
00:51:24
be can be frustrating. And I felt it at
00:51:26
times, but a lot of it actually if you
00:51:28
really ask that question, why are we
00:51:29
doing it? There isn't often a a good
00:51:31
reason. It can be done so much better.
00:51:33
And so if you can use that um that's
00:51:35
that restlessness, that openness, that
00:51:37
willing, that wanting to reshape things
00:51:38
more radically in a positive way, but
00:51:41
add the wisdom and experience that comes
00:51:43
with um with age and with with sort of
00:51:45
time in in a in a role, I think we can
00:51:48
have a really beautiful sort of um
00:51:49
cocktail of the two things happening.
00:51:52
That's why I think optimistic. We need
00:51:53
to crack that that generation
00:51:55
collaboration understanding, but it can
00:51:57
unlock so much in in in shaping a better
00:51:59
world.
00:52:01
And you've spoken a little bit before,
00:52:04
you've used the analogy um from Mike
00:52:06
Tyson or the quote from Mike Tyson. Um a
00:52:09
fight plan is great until you get
00:52:11
punched in the face.
00:52:13
That's really quite pivotal. I think I
00:52:16
know you've spoken about it in a uh in a
00:52:20
teaching kind of education perspective,
00:52:22
but have you got any examples uh with
00:52:25
regards to organizations you've worked
00:52:27
with or anything that might be helpful
00:52:29
for our listeners with regards to
00:52:31
boards?
00:52:32
>> Yeah, so I think um I should say Mike T
00:52:34
is not the perfect role model, but it
00:52:36
was I think it was a very good quote um
00:52:37
on that one. But on that point, I think
00:52:40
um I've been helping a group in America
00:52:41
called Partners Public Good. They've
00:52:43
been they've just spun out of Harvard.
00:52:44
Um and they're trying to reimagine
00:52:46
procurement actually. So a lot of it is
00:52:48
around governance and so on and make
00:52:49
procurement across I think it's about
00:52:51
several trillion dollars of spend every
00:52:53
year across the states more um just more
00:52:56
thoughtful more intentional so we can
00:52:58
all have better public services as
00:52:59
citizens. And what's been really
00:53:01
impressive with the spinout is they
00:53:03
they've done it. They've felt this is
00:53:04
the time to do it. Um they've kept very
00:53:07
good relations with Harvard which they
00:53:08
owe a lot of um uh gratitude for for
00:53:11
everything they've done to get through
00:53:12
to this point. But they've also been
00:53:14
feeding their way very um very
00:53:15
emergently really as well. There's been
00:53:17
they're building for example a network
00:53:19
of of professionals I've been helping
00:53:20
them think about but they haven't gone
00:53:22
and saying this is the only answer.
00:53:24
We'll try things. We'll try events.
00:53:25
We'll try platforms. See what sticks.
00:53:28
We'll talk to our members and we're kind
00:53:30
of gradually edging to the the right
00:53:32
answer. It's not going to happen
00:53:33
overnight. It's going to be a much more
00:53:35
emergent view of getting to that that
00:53:37
goal of helping influence um yeah better
00:53:39
better services for all in that that
00:53:41
regard. And if you could leave one
00:53:44
message for our listeners about
00:53:46
leadership that lasts, what would that
00:53:49
be?
00:53:50
>> Yeah, I think really try and think about
00:53:52
how you can future proof success. Um,
00:53:54
first of all, um, but with with a with a
00:53:57
long a long haul perspective and ideally
00:54:00
across generations. So, let's really get
00:54:02
to that hour hand really feel like an
00:54:04
hour hand taking that much longer term
00:54:07
perspective. And I think everything we
00:54:08
do then will feel um much more
00:54:10
meaningful, much more purposeful and
00:54:12
will leave a much bigger and better
00:54:14
legacy.
00:54:15
>> It was really great to speak to Sharath
00:54:17
today. Um he really opened the box on
00:54:20
the generational challenges within
00:54:22
organizations and how organizations can
00:54:25
start to unpack that. I think that it
00:54:27
starts with finding purpose and that
00:54:30
purpose is something then that
00:54:31
generations can get behind and assume
00:54:34
that they are able to do that. That then
00:54:36
means that the organization can move
00:54:38
forward where everybody, as he
00:54:41
mentioned, wherever they are sat on the
00:54:42
bus, whether they're at the front or the
00:54:44
back, um they can move forward and they
00:54:46
can feel really part of what they're
00:54:49
trying to create. I think finally, it's
00:54:52
also about impact. So, what do you do
00:54:54
and what does that look like in reality?
00:54:57
And you can talk quite a lot about
00:55:02
generational challenges, but the reality
00:55:04
is what are you going to do about it and
00:55:06
how are you going to engage those
00:55:08
people? Uh, and one of the insights that
00:55:10
I got from him was that it's all about
00:55:11
conversations. It's about talking to
00:55:13
those individuals, really understanding
00:55:14
and learning what it is that matters to
00:55:17
them. And whilst that might not
00:55:19
necessarily meaning meet perfectly in
00:55:21
the middle, it does mean that you will
00:55:24
understand those stakeholders, those
00:55:25
individuals, and hopefully you can move
00:55:28
forward together um with a shared
00:55:30
purpose. That's it for this episode of
00:55:32
Grit in the Boardroom. Thanks to Sherath
00:55:35
for sharing his story with honesty and
00:55:37
insight. And thank you for listening. If
00:55:40
you found this conversation valuable,
00:55:41
please follow the show and share it with
00:55:43
someone who leads through complexity.
00:55:45
Until next time, stay thoughtful, stay
00:55:48
brave, and stay in the room.
