00:00:00
I could position it that it was like a,
00:00:02
you know, positive in that I'm super
00:00:04
resilient and uh, you know, I was just
00:00:06
determined to succeed. I think actually
00:00:09
I stayed because I was afraid to leave.
00:00:12
The key first task for any leader is to
00:00:15
build belief. If I could say one thing
00:00:17
to to leaders at any level is that
00:00:20
culture isn't bigger than you. Culture
00:00:22
literally is you. that your ability to
00:00:25
create an environment where your people
00:00:27
achieve things they wouldn't achieve if
00:00:29
you weren't there is the key and so I
00:00:33
think one of the key tasks for a CEO
00:00:36
this is one of the piece of advice I
00:00:38
give to anybody trying to change any
00:00:40
business or just lead any business is
00:00:45
>> welcome to grit in the boardroom I'm
00:00:46
Erica IAS Norris today I'm joined by
00:00:49
someone who has spent his career
00:00:51
reshaping what it means to lead at the
00:00:53
Pop. Chris Hurst is an award-winning
00:00:55
author, leadership coach, and former
00:00:57
global CEO of Havs Creative. Before
00:01:00
that, he led Grey London through a
00:01:02
dramatic turnaround, transforming both
00:01:04
its culture and commercial performance.
00:01:07
He challenges the myth of the heroic
00:01:09
leader and instead argues that clarity,
00:01:11
courage, and culture are the true
00:01:13
engines of performance. We'll be talking
00:01:16
about what it really means to lead
00:01:17
through crisis, how CEOs build trust
00:01:20
with boards when pressure mounts, and
00:01:22
how to stay human in an age obsessed
00:01:24
with speed and certainty.
00:01:26
>> Hi Chris.
00:01:27
>> Hi.
00:01:28
>> Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. Let's
00:01:29
get into it.
00:01:30
>> Yeah, nice to be here. Thank you.
00:01:32
>> So, every leader has a moment that tests
00:01:36
their judgment. Um, for you, was there a
00:01:39
single crisis or turning point as a CEO
00:01:43
uh during your career that defined how
00:01:45
you think about leadership?
00:01:47
>> It definitely was. Um, but mine was, I'd
00:01:49
say, a very slow motion sort of grinding
00:01:53
[laughter]
00:01:54
experience rather than a sudden like
00:01:56
oneoff event.
00:01:58
>> It was this unfixable business. And I
00:02:00
was hired by this very charismatic, also
00:02:02
very young CEO. and he hired me and
00:02:05
another a team of four people to fix
00:02:07
this business. And um and for me like
00:02:10
this was the dream job. I got made
00:02:11
managing director. So I was a deputy to
00:02:13
the CEO basically. And and and I
00:02:17
remember like I don't think anybody said
00:02:19
this out loud but I kind of remember we
00:02:22
was had a had a sort of a first meeting
00:02:24
together, you know, probably at some
00:02:27
fancy restaurant or something, I don't
00:02:28
know. And I remember sort of the sort of
00:02:31
mood around the table was everybody
00:02:32
looking around at each other and
00:02:34
thinking, well, you know, I think I'm
00:02:37
pretty good. And uh and and and I and I
00:02:40
kind of know they're all pretty good, so
00:02:42
this is going to be this is going to be
00:02:43
a cakewalk, right? I mean, we're all
00:02:45
good and it's going to be great. It's
00:02:46
going to make our careers. And basically
00:02:48
um Nemesis follows Hubris, right?
00:02:51
Basically. [laughter]
00:02:52
Um [snorts] and so within six months,
00:02:55
the charismatic CEO had gone under and
00:02:57
that's a whole story in itself. And
00:02:59
within about 18 months, I was basically
00:03:01
the only one left of this of this group.
00:03:04
And then I was passed over successively
00:03:07
to be the new CEO. So I think I had two
00:03:09
or three possibly uh new bosses uh over
00:03:12
the next six years. And so six years
00:03:14
later, I'm now no longer, you know, in
00:03:16
my early 30s. I'm now in my late 30s,
00:03:18
nearly 40. Um and the business was still
00:03:20
a dog of a business. And I'd been hired
00:03:23
as part of the solution, but now I was
00:03:24
part of the problem. And I and I
00:03:26
genuinely thought honestly I think with
00:03:29
some justification that I kind of
00:03:31
screwed my career really. I mean you
00:03:33
know you know I'd been hired as but you
00:03:36
know this new wave and we'd failed and
00:03:38
we'd failed for a long time and so it
00:03:39
looked like I wasn't going to get
00:03:40
promoted there. It looked like I wasn't
00:03:42
going to get promoted anywhere else. Why
00:03:44
would anybody in fact realistically I
00:03:46
wasn't even going to get a sideways move
00:03:48
because why would anybody what what have
00:03:50
I got to recommend my success as a
00:03:52
managing director essentially [laughter]
00:03:54
you know zero. Yep.
00:03:55
>> The short version of the story was that
00:03:57
I kind of got a bit lucky. Uh they hired
00:04:00
a new boss, another new boss. I was
00:04:02
passed over again and unexpectedly he
00:04:06
got promoted very quickly. Um and he
00:04:09
didn't particularly want to be he wanted
00:04:12
to do something in this job first, but
00:04:14
he was given one of those well either
00:04:15
you take it or we hire somebody else. So
00:04:17
what are you going to do? So you take
00:04:19
the job, right? And he took a chance on
00:04:20
me. So suddenly I find myself a CEO of
00:04:23
this business that I'd been there
00:04:25
failing in and and really that was a
00:04:29
pivotal point for me because I I kind of
00:04:33
felt like I had nothing to lose. I'd had
00:04:35
this unexpected chance where I thought
00:04:37
that my chance had gone and I didn't
00:04:41
have great clarity over how we were
00:04:43
going to fix this business which was
00:04:44
still a dog for business. But what I did
00:04:46
know was two things I suppose. one, I'd
00:04:50
seen a lot of I and others had made six
00:04:53
years of mistakes. So, I was determined
00:04:54
we weren't going to make those mistakes.
00:04:56
We were going to make new ones all of
00:04:58
our own.
00:04:58
>> Yep.
00:04:59
>> And second of all, I felt like cuz I
00:05:01
kind of had nothing to lose, I felt like
00:05:03
I'm not going to treat the business's
00:05:06
crappy reputation as a millstone, I'm
00:05:08
going to treat it as an opportunity. So,
00:05:11
if we're going to fix it, we're going to
00:05:12
have to break some things. We're going
00:05:13
to have to make lots of mistakes, but
00:05:15
we're going to we're going to really be
00:05:17
iconoclastic and go for it. And I I I
00:05:20
know and over the next three years, we
00:05:22
transformed that business. We we
00:05:23
absolutely transformed it. We turned it
00:05:25
from a terrible terrible one of the
00:05:26
worst ad agencies in London to one of
00:05:28
the best in London, one of the best in
00:05:29
the world, arguably because if you're
00:05:31
one of the best in London, you are still
00:05:32
one of the best in the world. And I
00:05:34
think that swing that that the sort of
00:05:36
the six years that preceded and the six
00:05:38
years that that followed that that event
00:05:41
I think both halves of those contributed
00:05:44
equally if you like to my view on what
00:05:46
leadership is and how to do it well.
00:05:49
>> Really interesting. And a couple of the
00:05:51
things that you said are also
00:05:53
interesting for kind of follow-up
00:05:54
questions. So you say you were passed
00:05:56
over a number of times to be CEO. I've
00:05:59
seen that in my own experiences, not
00:06:02
myself personally, but I've worked in
00:06:05
seuite roles and seen people apply,
00:06:08
sometimes a CFO, sometimes an MD of a
00:06:10
subdivision applying for that CEO role
00:06:13
and then the majority of the time they
00:06:16
decide to leave or I don't know if
00:06:17
they're pushed, but they they make a
00:06:19
decision to no longer stay with that
00:06:20
business. How did you keep up that
00:06:22
resilience? Because that's a number of
00:06:24
times, right? Well, I could I could
00:06:27
position it that it was like a, you
00:06:29
know, positive in that I'm super
00:06:31
resilient and you know, I was just
00:06:33
determined to succeed. I think actually
00:06:36
I stayed because I was afraid to leave.
00:06:39
>> Okay.
00:06:40
>> Um because I think it beca it was a very
00:06:44
big promotion for me.
00:06:46
>> Yeah.
00:06:46
>> From where I was to become ND that was a
00:06:48
big step. Like I say the point was I was
00:06:50
very young really. I was too young for
00:06:52
the job and I was certainly too young
00:06:54
for a job when I suddenly didn't have
00:06:56
the boss who hired me to sort of teach
00:06:58
me and bring me through.
00:06:59
>> Yes.
00:07:00
>> So I think that I didn't have the
00:07:03
courage really to step out because
00:07:06
stepping out would have meant stepping
00:07:08
back.
00:07:09
>> Right.
00:07:10
>> And so in a sense I feel like I was a
00:07:13
little bit trapped. I mean it's all in
00:07:16
my own head. I mean nobody nobody was
00:07:18
physically trapping me but I trapped
00:07:20
myself in a way. So whether that
00:07:22
perception was true or not, I certainly
00:07:24
think there's some truth in it. And
00:07:26
that's why, you know, I don't want to be
00:07:29
overly self-deprecating, I mean, you
00:07:31
know,
00:07:33
he, my boss, to his credit, you know, we
00:07:35
were successful when he appointed me. So
00:07:37
I obviously had done something to
00:07:39
demonstrate to him that it was it was
00:07:42
worth taking a a risk on me, I guess,
00:07:44
and making me CEO. But nevertheless, I
00:07:46
mean, I think if he hadn't been
00:07:48
promoted, and I I had got to the point
00:07:51
when I'd been passed over again where I
00:07:53
thought, and in fact, I'd begun to say
00:07:55
to them, I I I have just got to the end
00:07:58
of my tether. I am going I have to step
00:08:01
out of here. I don't know what I'm going
00:08:02
to do, but I can't keep doing this. So,
00:08:05
a number of, you know, the planets did
00:08:07
just align at the right time, I think.
00:08:10
>> So, there's a certain amount of
00:08:11
resilience needed in there as well,
00:08:13
though. There's there's definitely
00:08:15
resilience. I mean, and I think I am
00:08:17
quite a resilient person, but but the
00:08:20
resilience
00:08:22
isn't the only explanation for why I
00:08:25
stay. I didn't stay because I thought
00:08:27
I'm going to be super loyal and you know
00:08:29
I mean I did believe in myself and I did
00:08:32
think you know there is a path for me
00:08:35
and I did think I was doing a good job
00:08:38
but at the same time you know I I feel
00:08:42
like that was a you know after I mean it
00:08:44
was six years and it's quite a long time
00:08:46
and so in time that was eroding away um
00:08:50
>> but yeah I think I think you always you
00:08:54
need resilience
00:08:56
in life.
00:08:57
>> Indeed.
00:08:59
>> Indeed. And when you were CEO of that
00:09:01
business and you were part of that
00:09:03
turnaround, I mean, there's many leaders
00:09:07
that will try um and fail.
00:09:11
>> Obviously, you'd been part of a team
00:09:13
that hadn't been successful, but
00:09:15
obviously you were no doubt a smaller
00:09:17
cog in that machine, and then all of a
00:09:19
sudden, you were in in a place where you
00:09:21
could make bigger decisions. How how do
00:09:23
you even start to look at that? How how
00:09:26
do you approach that?
00:09:28
>> As a consequence of this, one of the
00:09:29
things that I mean it really made my it
00:09:31
really made my career. That that that
00:09:34
moment made my career and I suppose then
00:09:37
really my reputation as a CEO became the
00:09:40
person who fixes broken businesses.
00:09:43
And I then went on and and and sort of
00:09:45
did it again subsequently. But I'll be
00:09:49
honest, that isn't necessarily a path I
00:09:51
would have deliberately chosen. It's a
00:09:53
hard way to make a living. I I often
00:09:55
joke with people and think, you know, it
00:09:57
would be really nice if once like a head
00:09:58
hunter would ring me and say, "Oh, hey
00:10:00
Chris, we've got this business. It's
00:10:02
just a great business. It's doing it's
00:10:04
doing just fine. They just want somebody
00:10:05
to come in and just keep doing what
00:10:07
they're doing." But I never got that
00:10:08
call. I always got the, "Oh, Chris,
00:10:11
right, got look, hear me out before you
00:10:13
say no. [laughter]
00:10:15
It's a basket case. So I think that I
00:10:19
remember that that quite clearly
00:10:22
actually that moment where I it gets
00:10:24
announced that I'm the CEO and I stand
00:10:27
up in front of the company and uh and of
00:10:30
course for 6 years I had been in their
00:10:33
shoes looking up at the succession of
00:10:35
new CEOs so I could look there was about
00:10:37
200 people in the company at the time
00:10:39
>> and and therefore I knew what they were
00:10:42
thinking
00:10:43
>> because I'd been I like been standing
00:10:45
there myself Right. That's a challenge
00:10:47
though, right?
00:10:49
>> Yeah. And they're sort of standing like
00:10:50
this. And
00:10:52
uh and what they were thinking was, and
00:10:54
this is common in most businesses, if
00:10:57
not all businesses in that position,
00:10:59
people don't need convincing that change
00:11:02
would be a good thing. People know if
00:11:04
the business is a crappy business. It
00:11:06
doesn't mean they're necessarily
00:11:07
unhappy. It doesn't mean they're not,
00:11:08
you know, there's there's people can be
00:11:10
happy in businesses that aren't
00:11:11
performing well. People can have good
00:11:13
careers in businesses that aren't
00:11:14
performing well. It's just harder and
00:11:16
less common.
00:11:18
>> But what people were thinking was, okay,
00:11:22
we know that change would be a good
00:11:24
thing. But why should we believe that
00:11:26
you are going to be any different to the
00:11:29
long line of people that have been
00:11:31
before you and stood and said the same
00:11:32
things as you and
00:11:34
>> it hasn't changed. And I think that um
00:11:37
for leaders all leaders all new leaders
00:11:39
in any role I mean not many leaders find
00:11:42
themselves in such a sort of a
00:11:44
particular circumstance as that perhaps
00:11:46
but you don't have to be a CEO to be a
00:11:48
leader. The key first task for any
00:11:51
leader is to build belief I think is for
00:11:54
people is to not just say the right
00:11:56
things. You know we're going to be the
00:11:57
agency of the year in three years time.
00:11:59
Yeah. Right. I mean okay fine we've
00:12:01
heard this before. but to help people
00:12:04
believe that that is actually going to
00:12:08
happen. And the thing that I was
00:12:10
determined about and the the advice I
00:12:12
would give to every leader in any new
00:12:15
leader, well any leader, but certainly
00:12:16
any new leader is you have to start with
00:12:20
a real sense of urgency. We were
00:12:23
determined to create a sense of physical
00:12:28
change as quickly as possible. So I I
00:12:32
think of it as like concrete. Okay. So
00:12:36
if you imagine, you know, when you lay a
00:12:39
path for example, okay, and you put the
00:12:41
mold down and you pour the concrete in
00:12:43
and the concrete's wet. Yeah. Okay. And
00:12:45
you cats leave their paw prints across
00:12:47
it and people squiggle their name in it
00:12:49
with a stick. In time, that concrete
00:12:51
sets.
00:12:52
>> And if you want to change it, you have
00:12:54
to smash it. You have to take hard
00:12:57
physical actions to create space for
00:12:59
something new.
00:13:01
Uh the other the other example I use is
00:13:03
like a sledge stuck in the ice. Okay, if
00:13:06
you want to if you know where you want
00:13:07
to get to get there, the first thing you
00:13:10
have to do is free the sledge. So you
00:13:12
don't just you don't just stand and push
00:13:14
it in the direction you ult want go in.
00:13:17
You kick it, you swear at it, you smash
00:13:19
it, you rock it, you fight with [snorts]
00:13:20
it to get it free. And then once you've
00:13:22
got it moving, you can then start to be
00:13:25
more specific around, you know, the
00:13:28
point you want to get to. And so what we
00:13:31
did was we really set about being
00:13:33
absolutely iconoclastic. And I'll give
00:13:35
you a I'll give you a great example
00:13:37
that's not an example you ever read in
00:13:38
business books. Um and it now that
00:13:41
people working more flexibly it might be
00:13:43
slightly less relevant now although I
00:13:45
think it's still it still matters. But
00:13:48
in those days of course everybody
00:13:50
everybody went to the office every day.
00:13:52
And um the the first thing that we did
00:13:55
was we said we are going to get rid of
00:13:58
all of the offices in this building and
00:14:00
we are going to just mix everybody up.
00:14:02
We are we are going to literally pull
00:14:04
names out of hats out of a hat and
00:14:06
that's going to determine where you're
00:14:08
going to sit. So when you come to work
00:14:10
on Monday, you are going to physically
00:14:13
experience something completely
00:14:15
different. This is a different
00:14:18
business that we you're in right now.
00:14:21
And people of course hated it
00:14:23
>> because there's nothing that people
00:14:25
people if you want to get people's
00:14:26
attention
00:14:27
>> you can write them strategic
00:14:29
presentations and all that stuff and
00:14:30
people are like yeah right for all this
00:14:32
before get their attention tell them
00:14:33
they're sitting somewhere else
00:14:35
[laughter]
00:14:35
>> and people really pay attention right
00:14:37
and so
00:14:38
>> it's their personal space
00:14:39
>> it's their personal space and what what
00:14:42
matters is though so first of all
00:14:44
getting people's attention but what we
00:14:46
did was we told people why and what the
00:14:50
way
00:14:51
The way that change needs to work is you
00:14:53
need to explain to people the logic for
00:14:55
why you're doing what you're doing. And
00:14:58
even if people don't necessarily like
00:15:02
all the things you do, they at least
00:15:05
don't just feel like it's capricious.
00:15:07
They they understand what it is you're
00:15:09
trying to do and why you're trying to do
00:15:10
it. And we said, well, I won't bore you
00:15:12
with our whole strategy, but the short
00:15:14
version of that is because we want to
00:15:15
work in a different way. We don't want
00:15:18
We were in advertising. It's a service
00:15:19
business. We are our whole thing is
00:15:22
we're not going to ask our clients to
00:15:23
fit around us. We're going to fit around
00:15:26
our clients. And to do that, we need to
00:15:27
smash down department boundaries. Um,
00:15:30
and we don't want you to be able to tell
00:15:32
what people do based on where they sit.
00:15:35
But maybe we do want to be able to tell
00:15:37
which clients you work on based on where
00:15:39
you sit. And what I became obsessed with
00:15:43
certainly in that first 12 months, 18
00:15:45
months, I became obsessed with this idea
00:15:48
of how do we make
00:15:51
change
00:15:52
a permanent like permanently slightly
00:15:56
off balance.
00:15:57
>> Yeah.
00:15:58
>> So we don't ever want that concrete to
00:16:01
fully reset. We want to continually be
00:16:04
thinking h okay how do I make uh Monday
00:16:09
different to the preceding Friday when
00:16:11
people come to work I mean you can't do
00:16:13
something that dramatic every week but
00:16:15
some way of pushing us forward
00:16:17
continuously um
00:16:19
>> it's that incremental 1% change right
00:16:21
>> it's incremental 1% but I don't think
00:16:24
that is the way you approach inflection
00:16:28
type point of inflection type change
00:16:30
>> okay
00:16:30
>> you know that we did Not we absolutely
00:16:33
did not take a certainly in that first
00:16:36
12 months we did not take a incremental
00:16:39
gains approach. No
00:16:40
>> we took a two-footed knee high tackle
00:16:43
approach [laughter]
00:16:44
you know we we took a we are going to
00:16:47
absolutely make this place feel as
00:16:49
different and we're going to keep doing
00:16:51
things. So we tore up every process that
00:16:55
we had in the business. We said we're
00:16:56
going to get rid of every single
00:16:57
process. We are going to change people's
00:17:00
roles. we are going to redefine the
00:17:02
roles of how we run individual client
00:17:04
businesses. Some of the things we did
00:17:07
didn't work. So actually the seating
00:17:09
thing it wasn't a disaster but it wasn't
00:17:12
a success.
00:17:13
>> Okay.
00:17:13
>> So what we did was we went okay we've
00:17:16
gone too far.
00:17:17
>> Mhm.
00:17:18
>> So we have to dial that back slightly.
00:17:20
So there is there you know in some
00:17:22
places this doesn't work. We're not
00:17:23
going to put everybody back in their
00:17:24
offices. We're not going to do that.
00:17:25
We're still going to stick with the
00:17:26
principles but we're going to refine the
00:17:28
principles.
00:17:30
And I think that was an important lesson
00:17:32
to the business because the important
00:17:34
lesson was we to for us to get to where
00:17:37
we're going to need to get to, we're
00:17:38
going to have to try lots of stuff and
00:17:40
we're going to have to accept that some
00:17:41
of that stuff's not going to work. And
00:17:43
when it doesn't work, we're going to say
00:17:44
this isn't working. We could we just try
00:17:46
something else. Yeah.
00:17:47
>> We're not going to stubbornly say this
00:17:49
is a principle. We're [clears throat]
00:17:51
going to say the objective is what's m
00:17:53
what matters and we'll try stuff and
00:17:54
we'll learn on the go as to what works
00:17:57
and what doesn't. This is a very
00:17:58
different approach to leadership than I
00:18:02
have seen in I'd say the majority of
00:18:04
organizations that I've worked with or
00:18:06
worked for.
00:18:07
>> I think Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. But
00:18:10
and and it was that sort of stuff that
00:18:12
we that we smashed up.
00:18:15
>> Um and and and people say so like you
00:18:18
know this like I say this business was a
00:18:20
notoriously crappy business and we we
00:18:25
genuinely and publicly transformed this
00:18:27
business. We were we were agency of the
00:18:28
year three years later which was
00:18:30
preposterous really. We said that's what
00:18:32
we were going to do but I mean I don't
00:18:33
think we even believed it if I'm really
00:18:34
honest. But and people would say so what
00:18:36
did you do? I mean okay wow I mean what
00:18:38
what did you do? And really I think what
00:18:40
we did was we made the culture the
00:18:42
strategy. That's really what we did. Uh
00:18:46
and and I I talked to as I'm sure you do
00:18:49
I talked to a lot of uh CEOs in all
00:18:52
sorts or not just CEOs but senior people
00:18:53
in all sorts of different businesses.
00:18:56
>> Yeah. And culture is one of those words,
00:18:58
right, that I I almost now like wish I
00:19:01
could find a different word for it
00:19:02
because I feel like people's eyes glaze
00:19:06
over slightly
00:19:08
um when you mention it because it's sort
00:19:10
of seen as this thing that yeah, we know
00:19:13
it's sort of important,
00:19:15
but it's kind of really difficult to
00:19:18
change, isn't it? and I can't easily see
00:19:21
it and touch it and it's a and it and a
00:19:24
lot of people who talk about it talk
00:19:26
about it frankly in my view in a kind of
00:19:28
way which is which is this sort
00:19:31
of slightly let's all be nicer to each
00:19:33
other and let's have pilateses at
00:19:34
lunchtime and fresh fruit and culture
00:19:36
has got nothing to do with these things.
00:19:37
Culture isn't a soft squishy thing. It's
00:19:39
a hard physical thing. It determines how
00:19:43
we behave in that environment.
00:19:45
Which is why the same person can go from
00:19:48
team A to team B and go from zero to
00:19:50
hero or hero to zero. It's the person
00:19:52
doesn't change. The environment changes.
00:19:55
And I think it matters in all
00:19:57
organizations. And one of the big
00:19:59
fallacies about it, I think, is that
00:20:01
people talk about it as even CEOs,
00:20:05
they they don't say this, but I can kind
00:20:06
of see the the mist glows across their
00:20:09
eyes because people see it as somehow
00:20:12
something that's bigger than them,
00:20:14
right? It it's somehow bigger because I
00:20:17
particularly people who maybe even
00:20:19
senior people who aren't the CEO see it
00:20:21
as it matters, but it's somehow bigger
00:20:23
than me. I can't do anything about it.
00:20:26
And the reality of it is if you're a
00:20:28
leader, whether you whether you're a CEO
00:20:30
or whether you're a department head or
00:20:32
whether you're have a team of six,
00:20:35
you determine the culture in your team.
00:20:38
Organization culture is not homogeneous
00:20:41
across an organization. It's a
00:20:43
patchwork.
00:20:45
Each team within that organization has
00:20:47
its own flavor of that culture and it
00:20:49
has its own flavor because it has a
00:20:51
different leader and the leader sets the
00:20:53
culture in that team. So if I could say
00:20:55
one thing to to leaders at any level is
00:20:58
that culture isn't bigger than you.
00:21:00
Culture literally is you and you can
00:21:03
change the culture almost immediately.
00:21:07
But the way you do that is you have to
00:21:10
change how you behave.
00:21:13
>> That's interesting. And you've had
00:21:14
experience of having smashing that up
00:21:16
and starting it again. Yeah. Do you do
00:21:19
you think or have you found that the
00:21:22
organizations that you go into are kind
00:21:23
of the same type? Um so therefore it's
00:21:28
translatable or do you think that you
00:21:30
could go into any organization and kind
00:21:34
of make a positive impact if they were
00:21:36
flatlining as it sounds like you're kind
00:21:38
of
00:21:38
>> that would be incredibly arrogant of me
00:21:40
to suggest that I could go to any
00:21:41
organization and transform it. Um,
00:21:46
at least at least I'm not saying this in
00:21:48
public. [laughter] Um, I think I could
00:21:50
go to any organization and make it and
00:21:51
make a positive impact on the
00:21:53
performance of that organization. Yes.
00:21:56
Because most I'm sure there's
00:21:58
exceptions, but most organizations
00:22:01
really are about people. I mean, people
00:22:03
lie at the heart of those organizations.
00:22:05
I know there's this debate now around
00:22:06
the role of AI and things like that, but
00:22:08
where people are concerned. So I spent
00:22:11
time with all sorts of different
00:22:12
organizations from you know ad agencies
00:22:14
which is where I started my career to
00:22:16
Google and I mean I I went and did a
00:22:19
some work with Nissan and the car
00:22:21
factory you know in Sunderland it's huge
00:22:22
plant it's incredibly impressive
00:22:24
organization and I remember going up
00:22:27
there and thinking you know goodness me
00:22:30
I mean what I don't know anything about
00:22:32
about car factories what on earth am I
00:22:35
going to say to these people about I
00:22:38
don't know about car factories and and
00:22:40
so we were in a room and had about a
00:22:41
hundred of their senior leaders in the
00:22:43
room
00:22:44
>> and guess what? They're just people and
00:22:45
the challenges they face are people
00:22:47
related challenges.
00:22:48
>> Um and so actually what I found is
00:22:51
everywhere that I've gone and everybody
00:22:53
I've talked to in every organization
00:22:54
I've been in, your ability to create an
00:22:57
environment where your people achieve
00:22:59
things they wouldn't achieve if you
00:23:01
weren't there is the key. And so yes, I
00:23:05
think I I think I could make a
00:23:07
difference. I and and and One of the
00:23:09
things I've always been quite
00:23:11
comfortable about doing is being
00:23:13
realistic about what I think I can do
00:23:15
and what I can't do as well. So, so and
00:23:18
I think that's key for all leaders to be
00:23:20
able to recognize within any
00:23:23
organization, whatever your title is,
00:23:25
which are the bits of this am should I
00:23:28
be spending my time on? And there's
00:23:31
going to be a number of other parts that
00:23:34
are very important that I'm not best at.
00:23:37
whoever whoever I am and what I need to
00:23:39
do is ensure that I have the right
00:23:41
people with the right autonomy and the
00:23:43
right support and all those other things
00:23:45
to enable [snorts] them to do
00:23:47
brilliantly in those areas. And in fact,
00:23:49
ad agencies are interesting in this
00:23:51
because the most important person in ad
00:23:52
agency is the creative director. I mean,
00:23:54
they're the people that physically, you
00:23:56
know, if you're a client and you go to
00:23:57
an I mean, meet me, I'm the CEO and they
00:23:59
go, "Well, yeah, be like Chris. He seems
00:24:00
like a nice guy, great, but I'm like,
00:24:02
but he's I'm not going to write the ads
00:24:03
or direct them or any of that kind of
00:24:05
stuff."
00:24:06
>> Yeah. And so or indeed the strategy
00:24:08
director or the digital all these other
00:24:09
roles.
00:24:11
I always saw my role as being the person
00:24:15
who did I suppose two things ensured
00:24:18
that our most valuable resource which
00:24:21
was our most highly paid people who were
00:24:23
the strategy directors and the and the
00:24:25
creative directors. Yeah.
00:24:26
>> That they were spending their time in
00:24:27
the places that mattered most to us as a
00:24:30
business. It's not always easy to do.
00:24:33
And second, could I create the
00:24:35
environment which is really a cultural
00:24:37
point to enable them to perform at their
00:24:39
best? How did I enable my our star
00:24:44
talent
00:24:46
to deliver maximum value to our
00:24:49
business?
00:24:51
So I presume I'm right in thinking that
00:24:53
you feel that a CEO is part of not
00:24:56
necessarily the whole piece but it's the
00:24:58
first kind of starting point of culture
00:25:01
and building a culture out works within
00:25:05
organization because if that doesn't
00:25:07
work
00:25:08
>> the rest of the organization you may
00:25:10
have pockets of good leaders and good
00:25:12
culture but like you say the overall
00:25:14
>> approach is going to be challenging
00:25:16
right
00:25:17
>> obviously the CEO is the most important
00:25:19
person in the business um and the person
00:25:22
most who is able to exert most effect on
00:25:26
the performance of the business should
00:25:28
be the CEO and the biggest cultural
00:25:30
influence is the CEO. So when I when I
00:25:35
see people with titles like head of
00:25:36
culture and stuff like that
00:25:38
>> I mean I'm like it's just it it's just a
00:25:41
joke. It's just laughable. It's just
00:25:43
it's just outsourcing. It's just saying
00:25:46
we think culture matters but we don't
00:25:47
want to do anything about it so we're
00:25:48
going to give it to somebody as a job
00:25:49
seller and we're going to put it over
00:25:50
there. It fundamentally misunderstands
00:25:53
what culture is. Culture is the behavior
00:25:55
of leaders. Um and all leaders uh have
00:26:00
to understand that and the more seen you
00:26:02
are the more influence you have. You're
00:26:05
not a sole influence but the more
00:26:07
influence.
00:26:08
>> Yeah. Lots of CEOs find that boardrooms
00:26:12
can be quite political or at least as
00:26:14
political as they can be strategic.
00:26:17
>> How did you build trust and alignment
00:26:21
with your board um especially when ch
00:26:23
when kind of the plans changed? You
00:26:25
spoke a little bit about that rather
00:26:26
than just maintaining that status quo.
00:26:28
How do you bring everyone else along?
00:26:32
Well, I think there's a [sighs]
00:26:36
I mean there is there is an an element
00:26:38
of I hate the expression but you know
00:26:40
carrot and stick about that.
00:26:43
First of all, clarity is king, you know.
00:26:47
So, and this and it isn't always the
00:26:50
case, but the first thing you have to do
00:26:51
is you have to be ensure that everybody
00:26:54
within well ultimately as many people as
00:26:56
possible in the whole organization, but
00:26:58
let's just start with the, you know, the
00:26:59
the senior team. You have to be sure
00:27:03
that those people understand not just
00:27:06
where you're trying to get to, but how
00:27:08
you're going to try and get there. So
00:27:11
let's say objective and strategy in
00:27:13
simple terms.
00:27:15
And they have to buy into those things.
00:27:17
That's the important point.
00:27:19
>> They could conceptually understand how
00:27:22
you're trying to do it, but whether or
00:27:25
not they feel that they're going to take
00:27:27
part in that is a separate thing. And
00:27:29
that's where you get and and those
00:27:32
people those people who might understand
00:27:35
and smile to your face and all that kind
00:27:36
of stuff, but decide that for whatever
00:27:39
reason they're not going to
00:27:43
play ball. They are in some ways the
00:27:47
most dangerous people to have in your
00:27:50
leadership team to have around you
00:27:53
because the rest of the organization are
00:27:56
looking at you as a team and they can
00:27:58
see those gaps. And so I think one of
00:28:01
the key tasks for a CEO is and I this is
00:28:06
one of the piece of advice I give to
00:28:07
anybody trying to change any business or
00:28:10
just lead any business is you have to
00:28:13
ensure that you have an indivisible unit
00:28:16
at the top of your organization.
00:28:19
A a a group that absolutely doesn't just
00:28:22
buy in but feels co-ownership
00:28:27
of what it is you're trying to do. And
00:28:30
if and ultimately I don't think you
00:28:33
should shoot from the hip. I don't think
00:28:34
you should turn up on day one and go
00:28:35
that's you. That's you. That's not you.
00:28:37
That's you. That's not you. I I think
00:28:39
you have to behave in an adult way and
00:28:41
take ideas from other people and give
00:28:43
things time. But ultimately if you have
00:28:46
people that aren't prepared to do that,
00:28:47
they have to go because they'll derail
00:28:49
you. And and and I think there's a sort
00:28:52
of a triage approach you can take to
00:28:54
that. I always say to people there there
00:28:56
are not all senior roles are created
00:28:58
equal. There are some roles that I think
00:29:03
I always think to myself, well, you know
00:29:04
what? I'd like, let's say we've got 10
00:29:07
people, let's say, on the senior team.
00:29:09
I'd like all, of course, I'd like all 10
00:29:12
to be absolutely absolutely, you
00:29:14
couldn't put a cigarette paper between
00:29:16
them. But you might think, okay, but
00:29:19
that person, they if if I don't get them
00:29:22
aligned,
00:29:24
I don't think that is critical right
00:29:26
now. I see them as like rocks in a
00:29:28
stream. we can flow around them. We'll
00:29:31
come back to them. We'll come back to
00:29:32
it. And sometimes those people when they
00:29:35
can see, oh actually things seem to be
00:29:37
going quite well, it might be my
00:29:39
interests to get with this group, you
00:29:40
know, and then they join in. And
00:29:41
sometimes they don't, in which case you
00:29:43
can deal with them later. There are
00:29:44
other people within that group that you
00:29:47
have to have aligned. So if your CFO
00:29:51
isn't aligned, you've got a big problem.
00:29:54
you know that that that is a role that
00:29:56
is capable of totally derailing um what
00:29:59
it is you're trying to do for example
00:30:01
yes and there'll be I picked CFO because
00:30:03
it's a you know it's a role that we all
00:30:05
understand different companies have
00:30:06
different types of roles
00:30:07
>> and so I've been in roles where
00:30:10
sometimes I've been super fortunate and
00:30:12
you know we've just had a CFO that I
00:30:14
just thought wow this person's just
00:30:15
absolutely incredible they're going to
00:30:16
be a great partner to me off we go uh
00:30:20
and other times that we haven't moved
00:30:22
until we've changed that
00:30:24
Yeah, and that's a challenge in
00:30:26
businesses that I've seen. I've seen
00:30:29
CFOs step up to be CEOs and then bring
00:30:32
in a new CFO. And that is very
00:30:36
interesting because from what I've seen,
00:30:40
it becomes quite challenging if you
00:30:42
can't let go of your old job and
00:30:44
actually fully embrace your new job. And
00:30:46
it can be a quite different mindset to
00:30:49
be a CFO to being a CEO. a completely
00:30:52
different mindset. [laughter]
00:30:53
>> The blue sky thinking doesn't doesn't
00:30:56
happen or doesn't have to think clearly.
00:30:59
Yes.
00:30:59
>> With regards to CFO role. Yes. Whereas
00:31:01
the CEO role has to be focused on
00:31:04
innovation and potentially change
00:31:06
evolution whatever that might be. The
00:31:08
CFO has to be that rock that stays
00:31:10
steady and is that
00:31:12
>> that's totally different jobs. Being a
00:31:16
CEO, lots of CEOs, they talk about
00:31:20
accountability.
00:31:21
>> In practice, it can be really lonely
00:31:23
being a CEO.
00:31:24
>> Yeah.
00:31:25
>> When did you last make a decision that
00:31:28
no one else wanted to make and what gave
00:31:30
you that courage to follow through?
00:31:32
>> I certainly for me the most difficult
00:31:34
decisions were often people related
00:31:35
decisions because well for obvious
00:31:38
reasons they're you know they're human.
00:31:40
It's humans. other people and uh and you
00:31:42
often having to make decisions. Well,
00:31:45
let's let's call it what it is. Firing
00:31:47
people.
00:31:48
>> Y
00:31:49
>> uh it's a lot it's a lot more harder
00:31:50
firing people than hire than hiring. You
00:31:52
know that hiring people can promoting
00:31:54
people can be a difficult decision, but
00:31:55
it's not of an order of magnitude of
00:31:57
firing people. And often um or not
00:31:59
often, well, yeah, I think often you
00:32:01
might find yourself firing people who
00:32:03
you know well.
00:32:04
>> Yes.
00:32:04
>> Right. Who you've worked with for quite
00:32:05
a long time, who you know well. And I
00:32:08
think that can
00:32:12
be pretty lonely on a number of levels.
00:32:16
I think it's lonely because ultimately
00:32:19
you're conscious that it's particularly
00:32:21
if it's a senior person. I mean a lot of
00:32:24
difficult people related decisions get
00:32:26
dodged. We all know that.
00:32:27
>> Yes.
00:32:27
>> Right. Right. And it's and it is and it
00:32:30
is a major barrier for businesses to
00:32:32
progress. I talked about that example
00:32:34
before when you have your senior team
00:32:36
and you've got somebody who is a nice
00:32:38
person. You like them, but they're just
00:32:39
obviously not
00:32:42
on the bus.
00:32:43
>> Yeah.
00:32:44
>> Um but that person who's not on the bus
00:32:46
might have a fantastic relationship with
00:32:47
a client.
00:32:48
>> Yes.
00:32:49
>> For example, that's a a classic example
00:32:51
of is that. And so there's really good
00:32:55
reasons for why there's like tactical
00:32:59
reasons outweigh the strategic reasons
00:33:01
if you like. But ultimately those people
00:33:04
are capable of massively holding you
00:33:07
back because they fracture your team.
00:33:09
They have a huge impact culturally for
00:33:11
example because people look at people
00:33:13
around you say well you were talking
00:33:15
this talk about culture but that person
00:33:17
you know the culture only doesn't really
00:33:19
matter does it because that person could
00:33:20
do what they like just because client X
00:33:22
really likes them. So actually the rules
00:33:24
don't really apply do they? principal is
00:33:26
not a principle till it cost you money,
00:33:27
right? So, I think those decisions where
00:33:31
you you if if if like firing somebody,
00:33:34
right, if it's just like really obvious
00:33:38
and straightforward, then it's not
00:33:41
pleasant um and it's emotionally can be
00:33:44
emotionally difficult, but you don't
00:33:46
feel unduly exposed by it. But in
00:33:49
[clears throat] my experience, that's
00:33:50
never the case, right? [laughter] That's
00:33:53
almost never the case. it always feels
00:33:55
like a 5248 decision.
00:33:58
>> Yeah.
00:34:00
>> Um so I think that for me those are the
00:34:02
those are the really difficult ones.
00:34:04
What I would say though is that nearly
00:34:06
always once you've made that call it
00:34:11
feels like a weight is lifted.
00:34:14
you know, it feels like like
00:34:19
not necessarily because those problems
00:34:21
that you imagined aren't real, but
00:34:23
[snorts] because it it frees you now to
00:34:27
be able to begin to fix the things that
00:34:29
really matter to you. Um, it it's like
00:34:31
almost like I think leadership really is
00:34:34
about taking control [snorts] or le but
00:34:39
let me be clear what I mean by that. I
00:34:40
don't mean that in a control freak way.
00:34:43
I mean, it's about understanding the
00:34:45
things you can control because most of
00:34:48
the things that affect our our lives and
00:34:51
our professional our personal lives, our
00:34:53
professional lives, our businesses, most
00:34:55
of the things that affect them aren't in
00:34:57
our control. So, if you're a CEO of a
00:34:59
business, most of the things that affect
00:35:01
your business, you can't control. You
00:35:02
can't control the economy. You can't
00:35:03
control what your competitors do. You
00:35:05
can't control geopolitics. I mean, the
00:35:06
list is endless of the things you can't
00:35:08
control. The weather, right? If you sell
00:35:09
ice cream and it's a rainy summer,
00:35:11
right? there's nothing you can do about
00:35:12
it. What you have to do as a leader is
00:35:15
understand the relatively small list of
00:35:17
things that you can control and not
00:35:20
ignore the external factors. Of course,
00:35:22
the external factors might determine the
00:35:24
decisions you take, but [snorts] you
00:35:26
have to understand what's in your
00:35:28
control and focus your energies and work
00:35:30
out how you're going to use those levers
00:35:32
to get you to where you want to get to.
00:35:35
I I always imagine that that great
00:35:38
leadership is the difference between a
00:35:39
sailing ship and a cork. If you drop a
00:35:41
cork in an ocean, okay, it's the tides,
00:35:46
the winds, and the currents determine
00:35:49
where that cork ends up. The cork has no
00:35:53
control over its destiny.
00:35:55
A sailing ship uses the tides and the
00:35:58
currents and the winds to get from where
00:36:01
it wants to get to get from its start
00:36:02
point to its end point. It doesn't go in
00:36:04
a straight line. It's not like a an
00:36:06
ocean liner. It has to zigzag its way
00:36:08
around, but with the right captain,
00:36:10
it'll get there. And I think that's what
00:36:12
leadership is about.
00:36:14
>> That's really interesting. I think
00:36:16
there's always a tension um in
00:36:19
organizations, but I think that there's
00:36:21
particularly
00:36:22
>> a tension in many organizations between
00:36:25
long-term vision and quarterly results
00:36:29
or kind of short-term short-termism,
00:36:32
let's call it that,
00:36:33
>> because many investors want regular
00:36:37
updates on what's going on um and how
00:36:39
things are progressing. And therefore it
00:36:42
does potentially force a CEO into a
00:36:45
position where they're having to give
00:36:47
either too frequent updates for what
00:36:49
they can actually helpfully add more
00:36:53
value to the previous update they may
00:36:54
have been a quarter ago. Uh how how do
00:36:57
CEOs look more to that longer term? You
00:37:00
obviously had to do that with regards to
00:37:02
the turnaround because whilst there were
00:37:04
probably short-term changes then were no
00:37:06
doubt changes that you wanted to do
00:37:08
longer term but that was just further
00:37:10
down the track. How do you manage to
00:37:12
balance that?
00:37:13
>> So I think stakeholder management is
00:37:15
really really important for for leaders.
00:37:18
Um and typically well for somebody like
00:37:20
a CEO you're going to have I guess
00:37:22
shareholders, customers and and
00:37:24
employees would be I mean maybe there's
00:37:26
some others but that's a let's say
00:37:28
they're the big three. Y
00:37:30
>> um and you have to take all three groups
00:37:32
with you. You and that's why
00:37:35
communication is so important.
00:37:37
>> You have to make sure in a sense that
00:37:39
belief point we were talking about.
00:37:41
>> Yes. Though all three of those need to
00:37:45
believe all of [snorts] your three
00:37:47
beliefs and if they really believe and
00:37:50
the way and the way of course if you
00:37:52
have like five quarters of terrible
00:37:55
results okay I mean belief is going
00:37:58
belief is going to filter away
00:38:02
but so
00:38:03
but if they believe in where you're
00:38:06
trying to get to and if you do a good
00:38:08
job of ensuring that they believe in how
00:38:11
you're trying to get there and you do a
00:38:14
good job of of demonstrating to them at
00:38:18
regular intervals that you are making
00:38:20
some progress
00:38:23
against the towards those things they
00:38:26
will cut you slack that you know I think
00:38:29
I mean I'm generalizing I can't say how
00:38:31
every single investor and every single
00:38:33
but that is my experience my experience
00:38:35
is if you can demonstrate that you have
00:38:39
momentum and that you are moving enough
00:38:43
of the key metrics in the right
00:38:45
direction most of the time because
00:38:48
nobody nobody has as well obviously
00:38:51
we've got these crazy huge monopoly
00:38:53
businesses that you know the tech let's
00:38:55
put those aside but in real businesses
00:38:58
very few people have brilliant quarters
00:39:00
every quarter and everything goes in the
00:39:01
right direction but it's it's a I think
00:39:04
ensuring that you have that level of
00:39:06
belief communication is the way you do
00:39:08
that and [snorts] and you what people
00:39:13
how you communicate often can be just as
00:39:17
important as what you communicate. Most
00:39:20
business communication is just terrible.
00:39:24
>> Okay? And people obiscate uh because
00:39:27
they they worry. They think, "Oh, well,
00:39:29
you know, we haven't moved all the
00:39:31
needles in the right direction and we
00:39:33
haven't, you know, you know, there are
00:39:35
some bits that we'd like to hide and all
00:39:37
this kind of stuff." Like this is real
00:39:38
world CEO, right? because it's always
00:39:40
this feels like it always feels like
00:39:42
you're drinking from this fire hydrant.
00:39:44
And you know, I think great
00:39:46
communication is concise, precise, and
00:39:48
clear.
00:39:50
Precise, concise, clear. And the more
00:39:54
precise and the more concise and the
00:39:56
more clear you can be, the more people
00:39:58
trust what you say. And yet, so often in
00:40:01
business communication, people do the
00:40:04
opposite. you know, they they they use
00:40:06
jargon and just and long
00:40:08
sentences because they want to try and
00:40:10
and it gives you even if they're not
00:40:11
doing it for this reason, it looks like
00:40:13
you're trying to hide something.
00:40:15
>> Yeah.
00:40:15
>> It looks like baffles brains.
00:40:18
And so, and it requires a degree of
00:40:20
confidence, I think, to be able to say
00:40:23
maybe everything hasn't gone exactly how
00:40:24
we'd like it to, but but one of the ways
00:40:28
you get people to trust you is by doing
00:40:31
that. No, of but I mean of course you
00:40:35
also need to demonstrate that some
00:40:37
things are going in the right direction
00:40:38
of course.
00:40:39
>> Um but but but I I think that that being
00:40:43
good at communicating is critical to
00:40:45
keeping your stakeholders on board on
00:40:48
side and um actually interestingly I
00:40:51
think one of the groups of stakeholders
00:40:52
that many CEOs don't spend enough time
00:40:55
on is their employees.
00:40:58
you know that because they they they're
00:41:00
so conscious of these these let's say
00:41:02
call them external pressures whether it
00:41:03
be investors and and customers they feel
00:41:06
these are the people that can fire me
00:41:08
you know in crude terms um but actually
00:41:11
the people that are going to get them
00:41:14
over the line is the third group their
00:41:16
employees
00:41:18
>> yeah that's true and I guess a little
00:41:20
bit to your kind of head of culture type
00:41:22
job when you have HR that doesn't
00:41:24
necessarily mean that you delegate whole
00:41:27
responsibility for employees to somebody
00:41:29
else.
00:41:30
>> You I mean I I I had a CEO that worked
00:41:34
for me. Um and I said to him, "So who
00:41:39
are your 20 most who are your the 20 key
00:41:42
people in your business?" Um and he
00:41:45
said, "I'll get back to you that I'm
00:41:46
going to go and talk to HR." And I was
00:41:48
like, [laughter]
00:41:49
"Are you got to be kidding me?"
00:41:53
[laughter]
00:41:53
Um I think having a good HR partner is
00:41:57
great.
00:41:58
>> Yes.
00:41:58
>> Okay. That it's great but they are not
00:42:03
responsible for culture. They are not
00:42:05
responsible for uh people. Uh people
00:42:08
work for you. Uh in the same way that
00:42:11
you know having a CMO or a head of
00:42:12
growth. Okay that's a critical role but
00:42:15
ultimately as a CEO the you're
00:42:18
responsible for growth. Let's be clear.
00:42:20
I mean in virtually every business
00:42:23
growth is the metric and what you're
00:42:26
there to do is to deliver growth. That's
00:42:28
your job and then you have people around
00:42:30
you of course that are experts in
00:42:32
particular aspects of that. So not
00:42:34
nothing against having a chief growth
00:42:36
officer or whatever as long as that
00:42:37
doesn't mean that you forget that
00:42:39
actually that's you that's your job in
00:42:42
the same way that you could I mean I
00:42:44
wouldn't ever have somebody called head
00:42:45
of culture but but you cannot forget
00:42:47
that culture is you
00:42:51
>> can't it definitely something that many
00:42:56
CEOs that I've seen have like like you
00:42:59
kind of said at the beginning diverted
00:43:00
away from or kind of said this is too
00:43:03
big for me to deal with. Therefore, I'm
00:43:05
just going to opt out.
00:43:06
>> Well, I think there's there's what I
00:43:08
think of as the leadership industrial
00:43:10
complex. Okay? And the leadership
00:43:12
industrial complex makes a lot of money
00:43:15
from u making leadership
00:43:18
uh seem like really complicated
00:43:21
[laughter] uh you know and and guess
00:43:23
what they've got the answer. It's
00:43:25
complicated, but hey, come to us. We've
00:43:26
got the answer. And leadership isn't.
00:43:28
It's difficult. There's no question
00:43:30
about that. But it's not complicated.
00:43:32
And I think the same applies to culture.
00:43:35
Like I said earlier, very often you have
00:43:37
lots and lots of people making lots of
00:43:38
money out of the culture industry. And
00:43:41
what they do is they come into an
00:43:42
organization and say, "Well, okay, I'm
00:43:43
going to come on and do six months of
00:43:44
consultancy with you and we're going to
00:43:45
do loads of all this stuff, whatever it
00:43:47
is, and then we're going to come up with
00:43:48
a culture, you know, culture for you."
00:43:51
This is total
00:43:54
Every great culture has basically the
00:43:57
same characteristics. There are
00:44:00
thousands of ways of doing it wrong. But
00:44:02
there's a relatively small number of
00:44:05
characteristics of great cultures. You
00:44:07
know, their trust, it's support, it's
00:44:09
great communication, it's autonomy.
00:44:13
Not going to exhaust this, but if you
00:44:15
just start with those four, okay, you're
00:44:17
you're going to be way ahead of most.
00:44:20
What's difficult, as we keep coming back
00:44:22
to in this conversation, is how do Okay,
00:44:24
great. I buy that. But but you've got
00:44:26
those four to start with. You don't need
00:44:28
to spend three months coming up with
00:44:30
those words. That's what we're aiming
00:44:32
towards. Okay. Now, we might need to
00:44:34
spend some time working at how we're
00:44:36
going to take our organization and
00:44:38
really make those a reality in in our
00:44:40
organization. But that is ultimately
00:44:44
that has to be something that the CEO
00:44:45
owns
00:44:47
>> because it's it's it's it can't culture
00:44:50
isn't something you write on PowerPoint
00:44:51
slides and put on the website.
00:44:54
That's why
00:44:56
the logic the the logic behind our
00:44:58
madness of saying we are going to just
00:44:59
pull apart how and where everybody sits
00:45:01
in this organization is because we
00:45:03
wanted to create space for new behaviors
00:45:05
ultimately. Um and even though the way
00:45:08
I'm describing it to you is now is the
00:45:11
benefit with of hindsight. I think
00:45:13
instinctively that's what we were
00:45:16
working towards. It changes an
00:45:18
organization, a culture, but as you say,
00:45:21
leadership can change it overnight.
00:45:23
>> It can. It really can. But it but it it
00:45:27
it is difficult to do because it it
00:45:29
means that not just the CEO, but the
00:45:31
CEO's leadership team and then not the
00:45:33
the then each of them have their own
00:45:35
departments and their own people that
00:45:37
work for them. It requires all of those
00:45:40
people to
00:45:42
think about their behaviors and how they
00:45:44
run their teams. And you can't you
00:45:47
literally cannot change a culture
00:45:50
without changing the behaviors of the
00:45:52
people that run it. You you literally
00:45:54
cannot do it. You might say, "Well, we
00:45:57
don't want to change our behaviors
00:45:58
because we think they're just fine as
00:46:00
they are." I I'm not here to tell you
00:46:02
they're not, but I'm telling you, your
00:46:04
culture won't change if you don't. and
00:46:06
you've led teams
00:46:08
through layoffs, restructuring,
00:46:11
um industry upheaval, yet you've always
00:46:14
seemingly
00:46:16
um maintained your optimism. How do you
00:46:18
maintain that optimism through those
00:46:21
kind of difficult times as a CEO?
00:46:25
>> I mean, there were times [laughter]
00:46:27
times when it was pretty bloody
00:46:29
difficult to maintain my optimism. I
00:46:30
could tell you I um so I stood up in
00:46:34
front of the company as the CEO.
00:46:37
I thought to myself, really, this sounds
00:46:40
a slightly mad thing to say, but it
00:46:42
wasn't until that point that I stood up
00:46:44
and asked myself this question, which
00:46:46
was we're not in denial about about the
00:46:51
state of our business. Fine. Some
00:46:54
businesses are, by the way, but we
00:46:55
weren't. But the key question is why?
00:46:59
Why is our business a crappy business
00:47:04
where you know we all know our
00:47:06
competitors, every business is only too
00:47:09
familiar with its competitors and every
00:47:10
business in every sector will be able on
00:47:14
a fairly informal basis maybe will be
00:47:16
able to tell you who the great
00:47:18
businesses are in that sector. Of course
00:47:20
most by definition are average. It's the
00:47:23
definition of average and there's going
00:47:25
to be some struggling ones.
00:47:27
>> Yep. in every sector
00:47:29
and we were definitely in the struggling
00:47:31
end. Why? Why is there another another
00:47:35
agency 300 yards down the street that's
00:47:39
a great business? What have they got
00:47:42
that we haven't got? Because they're
00:47:45
just a building with people in it. We
00:47:48
are just a building with people in it.
00:47:50
They don't own their building. We don't
00:47:51
own our building.
00:47:54
We don't own any IP. There's nothing
00:47:56
other than a load of people that walk
00:47:57
through the door every day.
00:48:00
And that applies to a lot of businesses.
00:48:04
>> Definitely
00:48:04
>> right. A lot. I mean, there are some
00:48:06
that own IP and things like that, but
00:48:08
even those that do, their competitors
00:48:10
own IP, too. So, you know, it it's and
00:48:13
[snorts] the only answer I ever came up
00:48:16
to with that question was talent and
00:48:18
culture.
00:48:19
Okay. Now, I always found this in answer
00:48:25
to your optimism question both
00:48:27
intimidating and liberating because it's
00:48:30
kind of intimidating because you think,
00:48:32
well, I actually haven't got there's not
00:48:34
many levers to pull here.
00:48:36
>> Yes.
00:48:36
>> But at the same time, none of the
00:48:39
businesses that are doing great have
00:48:41
really got anything that we can't have
00:48:45
>> if we put our minds to it.
00:48:46
>> Yeah. and we work hard enough and we
00:48:48
keep trying and we keep trying and
00:48:49
failing and zigzagging around and maybe
00:48:52
we need to change some people and maybe
00:48:53
we need to try different ways of
00:48:54
creating the culture we want but there's
00:48:56
nothing in innate that's stopping us
00:48:59
getting there and and that's I think
00:49:02
that's ultimately the thing that kept me
00:49:05
optimistic the the other answer to that
00:49:08
question is that there's a little bit
00:49:11
that I didn't tell you in the interest
00:49:13
of time but in the middle of this this
00:49:16
uh this kind of difficult part of my
00:49:18
career. I went and did the advanced
00:49:20
management program at Harvard.
00:49:22
Um, and that's a that that really
00:49:24
changed my life. That did. Um, but one
00:49:27
of the things that we did on that was we
00:49:30
studied successful
00:49:32
leaders. uh you know um I mean it was
00:49:35
quite a long time ago now. So, we'd
00:49:36
probably look at different people now,
00:49:38
but whoever that was, you know, um
00:49:40
Carlos Goon hilariously before he uh got
00:49:43
arrested in Japan and fled to Lebanon
00:49:45
and uh and uh Meg Whitman at eBay and
00:49:49
all and Jack Welsh at General Electric
00:49:52
and people like this, you know, these
00:49:54
real these really
00:49:56
mega CEOs who'd run huge businesses and
00:50:01
achieved remarkable things.
00:50:05
And one of the things that I came back
00:50:08
to our piddly little 200 person at the
00:50:11
time business
00:50:14
um that had been struggling and bumbling
00:50:17
along and I thought I reckon these guys
00:50:20
they'd fix this in an afternoon.
00:50:23
I mean what are we [laughter] playing
00:50:25
at? you know, Carlos go, you know,
00:50:28
transforms Renault Nissan in in in about
00:50:32
3 months or I mean, I'm exaggerating,
00:50:34
but there's the scale of the change and
00:50:36
the pace of the change that these people
00:50:38
achieved was remarkable and and I found
00:50:41
that I found that quite liberating. Now,
00:50:43
by the way, I actually don't know
00:50:45
whether they would fix it enough because
00:50:46
make things being smaller does not
00:50:48
necessarily make them easier. Let's be
00:50:49
clear about that. That is true. [snorts]
00:50:51
But but nevertheless, I did find it
00:50:54
inspiring
00:50:56
that that that
00:50:58
to look at the these gargantuan tasks
00:51:02
that that just regular people like you
00:51:04
and me,
00:51:05
>> I suppose to an extent, had taken on and
00:51:07
achieved. And therefore, I thought,
00:51:08
well, we must be out 200 of us. We must
00:51:10
be able to do something, mustn't we?
00:51:13
>> So, yeah,
00:51:14
>> that's great. Thank you very much. And
00:51:17
thank you for joining me.
00:51:18
>> Thanks for having me. That was great.
00:51:20
really enjoyed it.
00:51:21
>> So I think there were a number of
00:51:23
aspects [music]
00:51:24
that were really interesting with the
00:51:26
conversation with Chris today. One of
00:51:29
them related to [music] the CEO being
00:51:32
the driver of culture. He spoke quite a
00:51:34
bit about um people being hired as a
00:51:37
head of culture and said that whoever
00:51:39
gets hired into that type of a position,
00:51:41
it doesn't discharge the responsibility
00:51:43
that the CEO has to manage that [music]
00:51:45
culture within an organization and
00:51:47
that's where it should start. He also
00:51:49
talks about leaders and the fact that
00:51:51
leaders can be at all levels of an
00:51:52
organization. Those leaders [music] help
00:51:54
to bring that message of culture to
00:51:58
other teams. He also [music] talks about
00:52:01
difficult decisions and he says that
00:52:03
those are the ones related to people
00:52:05
which I can absolutely personally agree
00:52:08
with. Uh they are the human ones. um
00:52:11
[music] the changes, the challenges um
00:52:13
particularly if you're in a process of
00:52:16
removing some from the company, whether
00:52:18
[music] that's firing, making them
00:52:19
redundant. It's that human challenge
00:52:22
that can be really difficult as a CEO to
00:52:24
manage and sometimes quite isolating.
00:52:27
And the other point that I think is
00:52:29
important to bring out is the
00:52:31
communication piece. So he talks [music]
00:52:33
about what you communicate, but he also
00:52:36
talks about how you communicate. And
00:52:37
that how is really important to make
00:52:40
sure that the message gets across in a
00:52:42
way that people will appreciate, they
00:52:44
will understand, and they will continue
00:52:46
to believe in the vision and the mission
00:52:48
that you have as an organization. That's
00:52:50
it for this episode of Grit in the
00:52:51
Boardroom. Thanks to Chris for sharing
00:52:53
his story with honesty and insight, and
00:52:55
thank you for listening. Until next
00:52:57
[music] time, stay thoughtful, stay
00:52:59
brave, and stay in the room.
