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Welcome to personal finance for long-term investors, where we believe Benjamin Franklin's advice that an
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investment in knowledge pays the best interest both in finances and in your life. Every episode teaches you personal
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finance and long-term investing in simple terms. Now, here's your host, Jesse Kramer. Hello and welcome to
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episode 112 of Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors. My name is Jesse Kramer. By day, I work for a fiduciary
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wealth management firm helping clients all over the country. For more details, you can go to bestinterest.blog/work
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and the link is in the show notes. And by night, I write a blog called the best interest. And I podcast here on personal
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finance for long-term investors. I help busy professionals and retirees avoid costly mistakes and grow their wealth.
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And I do so by simplifying complex ideas about personal finance from investing to
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taxes to retirement and beyond. And today I'm really excited because Peter Lazerof is back and will be joining me.
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Peter is the chief investment officer at Plan Corp and he's the host of the long-term investor podcast. Peter is
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routinely recognized for simplifying complex investing and planning issues for clients and for listeners. He's been
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repeatedly named a top 100 US financial adviser by Investopedia. He's always a
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great resource for teaching people about investing. And you'll see that today
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simply through the frameworks and explanation that he provides. Peter first joined me back on episode 77 of
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this podcast. Go ahead and listen to that one. And now he's back for round two today. As usual, before Peter joins
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us, I want to do a quick review of the week. A little bit of drama because this is a three-star review, not a five-star
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review. But listen, critical feedback is awesome. So, please bring on the feedback. And if I don't deserve five
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stars, that's okay. There's a chance that MJV92314 might have fat fingered the wrong number
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of stars, or he or she might just be a good critic. So, the three-star review, clear, straightforward personal finance
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info. Thank you, Jesse, for your excellent podcast. I just discovered it and I've listened to about five
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episodes. I appreciate that you don't have chitchat and superfluous dialogue
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about your dog, your breakfast, or anything that's not related to your topic. You have no fake or forced
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laughter during dialogue with your guests. That's a good one. You have no unrelated
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banter with your guests. Your excellent speaking skills. Thank you for not excessively saying like, sort of, or
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kind of. I will say now I'm a little self-conscious about that. And you keep
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it clean. Cursing adds nothing to an informative topic. Iinging agree with you. Your topics are timely,
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informative, and helpful. I appreciate you keeping the conversation focused. Thank you. Well, you're very welcome,
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MJV. And listen, if your stars are precious to you, and you only save your five-star reviews for that one ina
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million podcast, no worries. Your written review was very kind. I'm happily going to send you a super soft
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t-shirt. Drop me an email to jessebinterest.blog and I will get you hooked up with that
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t-shirt. That mother t-shirt. And listeners, if you have questions I can answer, especially for a future AMA
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episode and ask me anything episode, send those questions to Jesse at bestinterest.blog. Before Peter joins
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us, I want to read a couple fun articles to you that are going to be somewhat related to what Peter and I talked
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about. The first one I wrote recently in March, March of 2025, and it's called,
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"Are you not entertained?" Do you know that scene in Gladiator where Russell
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Crow's character Maximus, he yells to the crowd? He says, >> "Are you not entertained?" I'm more
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interested in Maximus's next line, though, cuz he asks, "Is this not why
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you were here?" If you don't remember the movie, maybe you haven't seen it.
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Gladiator. Maximus of Russell Crowe. It's one of his initial forays when he gets thrown into the arena and he has to
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battle as a gladiator for the first time. And the audience certainly came there to see some violence and some
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death. And specifically, the plan was for a bunch of local gladiators, heavily armored, fully armed, to kill off some
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foreign slaves, including Maximus. But because Maximus is the protagonist andor because he's a highly trained Roman
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legionnaire, he turns the tables on the local gladiators, he kills all of them single-handedly. And the crowd is really
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caught off guard cuz they did not come to see that kind of a turnaround. And they go silent and that cues up the
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immortal lines from Maximus, "Are you not entertained? Is this not why you are
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here?" Maximus also throws his sword at the box seats, which is a real power
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move. But the point is, the audience came to see violence and death. They just hadn't expected it could be
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delivered in quite that way. And that frustrates Maximus. Did they expect every slave just to get slaughtered
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without fighting back? What terrible expectations. Does a chef expect a Michelin star without some burns or some
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knife slips? No. Does a traveler expect every eye-opening experience without a single delayed flight? No. And does the
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long-term investor expect their portfolio to compound for decades without times like the tariff tantrum
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that we had here in 2025? I say no. I get it though. Loss aversion is real. It impacts all of us. It's natural to feel
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anxious when markets react to world events, to wars, to politics, to tariffs. But it's crucial to recognize
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that those external shocks have always been part of investing history. We've
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had world wars and pandemics and oil crises and banking explosions, inflation run a muck, etc., etc. And yet, here we
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are. The nature of long-term investing is one of volatility, of ups and downs. And the ups are easy. They are great.
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The downs if we're not careful can be really challenging and you might have felt that challenge here in 2025. That
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volatility though that is a feature not a bug. Again that is a feature not a bug. We want to see volatility. We want
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risk to be involved in our investing at least in some part of our investing endeavor because without that risk there
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is no compensatory reward. There's no point to investing in the first place without risk. Is that not why you are
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here Maximus? Right. having a little bit of risk. That is why we are here. Yet often people get stressed or scared or
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they make drastic changes in their portfolio when faced with volatility. Such a reaction is this glaring red
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light to me that suggests that the investor's expectations were not adequately set. If your monkey brain is
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screaming, get off this roller coaster when you have a little bit of volatility, we need to ask, why did you
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get on that roller coaster in the first place? Were you expecting a smooth ride?
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Such investments do exist perfectly smooth, but there's no real upside to them. There's no real reward. It's hard
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to set new investing expectations in the middle of market chaos. Just as teaching
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fire safety while the smoke alarm is going off, that's pretty hard, too. Instead, we run real fire drills during
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the safe times to ingrain the appropriate reactions in everybody. We don't run fire drills in the middle of a
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fire. We run them during the safe times to ingrain the appropriate reaction and approach. And similarly, we should be
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setting investing expectations during the calm or positive market times to ingrain how we should be reacting. Now,
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I know this episode's going to come out in July and right now I'm speaking to
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you in about mid June, but we've fully recovered from the volatility of April.
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So, if April scared you, I hope you didn't try to reset things in the middle
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of the fire drill of April. But now that things have gotten back to a calm or even a positive market, now might be the
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time to think about how you reacted. And if you reacted in a pretty negative way,
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now that it's calm, you might want to run a fire drill now and determine if you need to reset your investing
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expectations. You don't have that luxury in the middle of a fire drill. If the
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next time you find yourself in a fire drill and and one of the the second article I I read today will be about
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that, but the next time you find yourself in the middle of a fire, I should say, in the middle of volatility,
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in the middle of panic, a few things that I called back in April, I called them the midfire fire drill. A few
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reminders, if you will. The first one, markets don't go up in a straight line.
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They never have, and they never will. Volatility is the price of admission for long-term returns. If you're feeling
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uneasy, you need to remind yourself this is why investors get rewarded over time
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because they endure these kinds of ups and downs. This is why you're here and
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you must endure, too. The second reminder, this is why we diversify. Stocks aren't enough. Bonds play a role.
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International stocks are crushing it this year. Real estate alternatives can have a place in your portfolio, too. The
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third reminder, you need to zoom out. Short-term swings can feel dramatic, but the market has consistently trended
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upward over decades. If you pull up a multi-deade chart of the S&P 500, the former dips, the former crashes, the
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former outright panics now seem kind of small in comparison. Every single one of
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them felt scary at the time. Yet over time, the market has recovered and moved higher. The fourth reminder, focus on
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what you can control. You can control your time horizon. You can control your behavior. The quote that I like, it's
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more of a philosophical quote, is you can't control the waves, but you can learn to swim. and we all need to learn
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how to swim. And the fifth reminder, remember your financial plan. Why did you invest in the first place? What do
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you own and why do you own it? A well-thoughtout investment plan accounts for volatility before it happens. If you
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don't have a plan, now is a great time to create one. Ideally, one that helps
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you stick with it when things feel uncertain. The world is a volatile place, and when things get volatile out
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there, and by there, I mean like outside the markets in the real world, when things get volatile out there, I too
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grow concerned. But when the market gets topsyturvy, I say to my inner maximus, yes, this is why I am here. And the
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second thing I want to read to you today, listeners, inspired by a cool Jason Zwag Wall Street Journal article
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from a few years ago. This is the beginning of 2022 where like the worst of kind of the co not only the co market
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panic, but a lot of the worst of the co pandemic was over with. But 2022 was also the start of this interest rate
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shock and and markets were kind of doing some wild things starting at the beginning of 2022. And so inspired by
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Jason Zwig, I wrote myself a letter for when my portfolio crashes. And the article I called it break glass in case
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of market crash. And literally it's a letter that I wrote to myself. Jesse, you knew what you were getting into. You
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knew this could happen. And it's okay that it did happen. Your goals are big
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and your timeline is long. That's why you signed up for this risk-heavy portfolio. 60% of your assets are in the
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stock market and you knew the stock market could get cut in half. It's dropped like that before and surely it
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will again. You knew the recent market felt pretty frothy, especially after the COVID related stimulus. But you also
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knew that selling your stock position would have been short-sighted. Rather than sell, you've been rebalancing every
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6 months. You've been selling overpriced assets and buying underpriced assets.
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That's the smart thing to do. You knew that bonds were in a tough place to park
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your money. Yields were pretty low. That's why your allocation varied between 10% and 15% in bonds, but you
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also knew that all asset classes eb and flow over years and decades, just like a
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good quilt chart would show us. Your bonds aren't there to make you rich. They provided some diversification and a
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pool from which you can rebalance. You knew cryptocurrency could be a giant bubble, but you also convinced yourself
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that blockchain technology might have something to it. You balanced these opposing views by following John Bogle's
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famous advice to limit your sandbox, to limit your play money to less than 5% of
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your portfolio. You chose a percentage even lower than that. And you split that tiny fraction between Bitcoin and
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Ethereum, which okay, at the time were considered the two powerhouse cryptocurrencies. I guess the idea is if
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you're going to drink moonshine, you should drink the good stuff, but you should definitely take a small sip. And
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quick aside, listeners, if you're paying attention at home and adding up my portfolio percentages, you'll realize
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I'm not even at 80% yet. The difference is because when I wrote this article,
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rather than only focusing on my portfolio, I also added in the value of our primary home as part of our net
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worth, and that's the other 20 to 25%. Okay, back to the letter. You designed
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this portfolio with intention, and this outcome, a crash, was always one potential outcome of that design. And so
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the market crashed and you feel bad. What you shouldn't do is suffer the malady of resultsoriented thinking.
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Saying told you so isn't justified here. You did your research. You followed
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mostly best practices. Maybe cryptocurrency is the outlier there. And you executed a plan that you believed
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in. You made a smart bet with good odds and the dice haven't rolled in your favor recently. Does that mean it was a
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dumb bet? No, it doesn't. As Annie Duke writes in the book, Thinking and Bets,
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thinking in bets starts with recognizing that there are exactly two things that determine how our lives turn out. The
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quality of our decisions and luck. Learning to recognize the difference between the two is what thinking in bets
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is all about. In your case, Jesse, the right choice led to a bad outcome. The next part is painful. You've got to make
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the right choice again, even knowing it didn't work out perfectly the first time. That right next choice is to
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continue learning, to implement lessons learned, to continue rebalancing your portfolio, and most likely to continue
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holding the same asset classes as before. The one exception would be if crypto turns out to be a complete fraud,
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you should probably just stick to more traditional asset classes. In other words, stick to your guns with a small
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aotment for adjustment. Is that insanity? Are you suffering that trope of insanity is repeating the same
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actions while hoping for a different outcome? I say no. When the poker player goes allin with a pair of aces, we don't
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scold her for losing on an unlucky flop. We commend her for making the right decision with the information she had.
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We recognize the role of bad luck in that outcome. This untimely market crash is the same. It sucks. It doesn't feel
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great. But go back and reread Bogle, reread Burton Malke, reread your foundational books. You played your hand
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well. This bad luck was always a potential outcome. As insane as it sounds, you've got to stay the course.
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Good luck, dude. I'm pulling for you, obviously. And that's my letter. And if
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you haven't written a letter to yourself in case of market crash, if you haven't
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explained to yourself why you own what you own, and if you haven't explained to
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yourself what your range of potential outcomes could be, both in the short term, the midterm, and the long term,
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that might be a pretty interesting exercise for you to do. Here's a quick ad, and then we'll get back to the show.
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I love getting your questions and some of you ask me questions about the wealth management firm I work for in Rochester,
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New York. Others ask about the Best Interest blog and this podcast, Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors, which
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operate without advertising, without pushy sales, and with no payw walls. How can the blog and podcast stay afloat
00:14:12
without me dumping my own money into it? Well, to answer both those questions, I
00:14:15
want to point you to episode 78 of Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors. I intentionally recorded
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episode 78 to shine light on those topics and inform you how you are actually helping and can continue
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helping these projects carry forward. So if you've ever been curious about the
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business of my blog and podcast or if you're curious about my day job in wealth management, please check out
00:14:34
episode 78 and let me know what you think. And now without further ado, I want to welcome Peter Lazro on to the
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podcast. Again, Peter is the chief investment officer at Plan Corp, which is a independent registered investment
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adviser out of uh St. Louis and he's just got a great knack for simplifying the complex investing and financial
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planning issues. I mean, similar to stuff that I talk about. I really look at Peter as a as as a great peer,
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probably a peer who's, you know, 10 years ahead of me career-wise and someone I I aspire to cuz I think what
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he's doing is awesome. Just a great resource for teaching people about investing. And I think you'll see that
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today through the the frameworks and the explanations he provides. So again, here
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is Peter Lazeroth. Peter, you know, it's messy out there, man. Uh, we've had an interesting year
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so far. We're recording in mid June. This will probably publish in mid July.
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We started on some highs. Boom. April hit. We had some lows. Now, maybe we're
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we're back towards highs. But still, uh, you know, one thing I'm struck with is
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there's this big difference between short-term signals and long-term direction when it comes to investing.
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I'd love to maybe start with just how have you felt and what are some of your
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thoughts about how 2025 has been so far? >> Well, first of all, Jesse, thanks for
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having me on the show. And actually, since I know you don't use video, but I
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can see in the background this giant box behind me. You know how 2025 is going? It's going great cuz I'm cleaning out
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old stuff. And there's actually a box of books of making money simple. So, my
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first book came out in 2019, making money simple. And I was just telling you before the show that I'm putting the
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finishing touches on my next book which is called The Perfect Portfolio. But when I was on last year, your audience
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reached out. They were fantastic. And so what I am going to do is if your audience goes to peter
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lazar.com/freebook. I'm pausing. I think it's free book, not book. We'll put a link in the show
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notes. I'm going to send you one of those books that's sitting behind me.
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There's a box of them. I think there's like 32 per box. Somebody pulled them
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up. The postage date on them is September of 2020. So they've been sitting in storage. Nobody knows where
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they came from. I didn't tell you that I was going to self-promote and drop that,
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but now that I see it in my camera view, you ask, "How is 2025 going?" Man, think
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about being a long-term investor is that when you go into a year, clients are always talking about a few things. And
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tariffs were certainly on people's mind. you know, the election results have just
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come in and I would say in any presidential election, my experience has been that half of people are very upset
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and half of people are happy. And I think a lot of people who were upset were saying the market is going to
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crash. I don't like some of the policies and things that are being said on the
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campaign trail. And lo and behold, I mean, I wouldn't call a 20% drop a crash, but we had a near 20% pullback.
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And you have people who feel validated. And I can't tell you how many times in
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my career I've put up slides showing that who is president does not impact the stock market or a political party
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does not impact the stock market. So one frustrating part about 2025 is me now realizing in about 3 years when we have
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our next election that when I put up those charts people are going to say well what about the tariffs that that
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Trump put out there that did happen. I suppose that validated but as you mentioned we're already back. It's a
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great reminder that the market is going to fall 10% 20% with a pretty surprisingly large frequency and the
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story is always going to be different. But the most important thing that I was talking to clients about and talking to
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employees and friends and family is earnings. And like yes, in the case of tariffs, which by the way, by the time
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that this airs, that 90-day pause will be close to expiring. And so there'll
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probably be more headlines related to it. >> Here's the thing is no matter what the
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tariffs are, do you think McDonald's is going to try to sell us cheeseburgers or
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Coca-Cola is going to try to sell us Coke or that Ford's going to try to sell
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us cars? No. They're going to try to sell as much of their product no matter
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what. Will there be more obstacles? Have the rules to the game changed? It's like
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if we got out a board of monopoly and we've been playing by the same rules that monopoly has always existed with
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and suddenly we change some rules, it's going to change your strategy a little
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bit. But when you invest in the stock market, you are betting that CEOs like money and that shareholders will demand
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that CEOs maximize their value. So 2025 has been like a full long-term market lesson all wrapped up into six months.
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It'll be really interesting to see what goes on with tariffs, what goes on with
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the spending bill. Yeah. I mean, that was a really long answer to your question. So, let me let me take a
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breath here. What what are you thinking? >> It's a good answer. And in fact, I want
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to play devil's advocate here on behalf of the listeners, but also Pete, I mean
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on behalf of client conversations that you and I both have. Maybe someone's listening right now and go, okay, we
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don't know what'll happen over the next month between when we're recording and
00:19:27
publishing, but let's say the S&P stays about where it is right now, which is
00:19:31
close to all-time highs. Essentially, we we haven't really lost any ground on the
00:19:35
year. But imagine someone says, "I hear what you're saying, Peter. McDonald's
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will keep on trying to sell cheeseburgers, but we saw something this year where one politician was able to
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push some policy forward and then pull it back and then kind of push it forward and pull it back and just whipssaw the
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stock market and that has fundamentally shaken my faith in long-term investing. Is there any merit to that argument or
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just what's your response there? >> I think there's merit to that feeling.
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The feeling is valid. feeling concerned, feeling worried, feeling uncertain, all
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valid, all normal. Nothing wrong with that. When you take a step back and you think about why we invest in the first
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place, I always go back to really the first principle level is we invest because we're trying to grow our savings
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faster than the rate of inflation without taking undue risk. And so like what is undue risk? Well, yes, there is
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risk in that that concern and that feeling that one individual specifically is exerting a lot of influence over the
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short-term fluctuations of the market. There is a risk that the market will fall 10% roughly on average every 12
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months because that's what it's done historically and fall 20% every 3 to
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four years on average because that's historically what it's done and fall 30%
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or more about once a decade on average because again that's historically what
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it's done. I generally think that when I'm investing in stocks I'm going to
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assume that we're going to have downturns with a similar magnitude and frequency as we have in the past. And so
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to me, that's not an undue risk. That is risk. And it is okay to be uncomfortable
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with risk. It's okay to be even more than uncomfortable to be afraid. I think
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that's why some people hire an adviser. I feel like I operate with robotlike
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execution with clients. But even on myself, I don't. And let me give you an example, Jesse. So during this downturn,
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>> I don't have a lot of cash. I don't keep a ton of cash on hand. You know, my
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biggest asset is the firm that I'm a part owner of, Plan Corp. >> I fund all my retirement accounts. I
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fund my health savings account. And so, the best thing I could come up with was directing my entire paycheck to my 401k.
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So, basically like speed funding my 401k while the market was down. And typically, I wait to fund my HSA until
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December, like when I get my year-end bonus and I have a little bit more cash. But basically, I just took all my
00:22:04
paychecks and just put them right into the market. When you do it in a 401k, as your listeners and you and everybody
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probably knows, it goes right into the market. My HSA had to make a couple stops. And Jesse, it's we're recording
00:22:16
this on June 10th. The cash in my HSA is still not invested. I am human like all
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of the rest of you. And all of the systems that I have in place for myself that generally mean that money is
00:22:28
getting invested right away don't apply to my HSA. in part because of like the
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way the account's set up and in part because it requires me to click a button. Now, is it because I'm afraid?
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No. If if I'm being perfectly honest, I saw a little spike and in my head I said, "Well, surely, you know, most bare
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markets don't resolve themselves this quickly and here it didn't." Now, what
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am I waiting for this? I've not publicly shared this story. I guess by December
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when I normally would have made the contribution, I will definitely do it by then. Maybe I'll do it right when we get
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off the call. In fact, mark my words, I'm going to do it right when we get off
00:23:03
the call. My 2025 investment will get invested. So, by the time you were listening to this, dear listener in the
00:23:09
audience, um it will be done. But my point kind of going all the way back to your concern was I think it's valid. It
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is very human. We all feel it. And when people like you and I are telling you what's best, you know, what we have set
00:23:21
up for both your clients, what we have set up for my clients is to do it without emotion and to do it without
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human judgment and follow processes and financial theory because the long term those things turn to work work out
00:23:35
pretty well. But the problem with the long term is that it is an eternity to live through in the moment. And so for
00:23:41
the people who still feel uncertain and shaken about what has happened and what might happen, I will again reiterate for
00:23:49
the third fourth time in the past five minutes totally normal. Just remember why is it that we invest and what is a a
00:23:56
risk that you get compensated for and what's a risk that you don't you don't
00:23:59
get compensated for trying to time the market. You don't get compensated systematically at least for trying to
00:24:05
pick exactly the right security. So, even though I poorly timed the market here, I'm going to go buy the single
00:24:10
fund that I own that's 100% stocks, globally diversified, I will make no choices other than what my predetermined
00:24:17
plan is. And you go forward that way. And it can be one of the crazy things is you look back at every drop and it seems
00:24:24
like an obvious opportunity in hindsight, but it's always seems like a risk in the moment. And so find a way to
00:24:31
turn what feels like a risk into an opportunity. Cuz I can assure you that when you look at one of those long-term
00:24:37
charts that goes up and to the right and has all the headlines, this is just going to be one of those headlines that
00:24:42
shows up on the on the chart of long-term returns despite all of these headlines. This is going to be on that
00:24:48
chart. You just wait it. Give us a year so there's enough room on the chart to
00:24:52
include it and it'll be in every history book like that. >> You touched on a few things there,
00:24:56
Peter. Well, first off, I want to say that your your quote that part of our job and part of any investor's job is to
00:25:02
grow their assets faster than inflation without undue risk. I'll be honest, I've
00:25:07
stolen that one from you before and used it. That is a fantastic explanation of the reason why we're all here in the
00:25:12
first place. It's not to become gajillionaires and die at top the greatest pile of gold that we can. It's
00:25:19
to simply grow our assets faster than rel uh inflation, but also keeping risk in mind, which which is huge. I want to
00:25:25
dive more into behavior because to me when I've seen what's happened so far
00:25:30
this year, one of the biggest risks we all face as individuals is that risk of overreacting. It's that risk of
00:25:37
mistaking volatility for some sort of signal that we need to change our plan. And I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm
00:25:44
wrong here, I think I listened to a podcast episode that you put out earlier this year where you said something akin
00:25:50
of like there are some times actually where you suffer volatility maybe for the first time as an investor or the
00:25:57
first time as a retiree, your account, your portfolio really takes that first big drop and you learn that maybe your
00:26:04
risk appetite isn't quite what it is and changing your portfolio actually is the
00:26:09
right thing to do. It just so happens that it was also the right thing to do before the volatility hit. You just
00:26:15
didn't realize it. C can you dive into that logic a little bit? >> Yeah, it's interesting and I don't think
00:26:20
it's something that I would have said at the start of my career nearly two decades ago when my only education was
00:26:29
really that from a textbook. In reality, when you're dealing with humans, you
00:26:34
can't take the human nature out of humans. And you know, I think a lot of times as we work with clients, it's not
00:26:41
just to be a robot fact machine. I mean, in many instances, we have the unique privilege to listen like a therapist and
00:26:48
ask questions and dig deeper. What I've come to learn as a result of that is
00:26:54
nobody really has a problem with the volatility itself, with the down market. you we'll sign an investment policy
00:27:01
statement before we invest a client's assets just like any other good adviser
00:27:05
will do and you'll say hey the portfolio the worst 12 months it's had like if you
00:27:10
had a million would you be comfortable losing $360,000 of it or whatever you're
00:27:15
like yeah of course I really think people believe that and that's how we set that stock bond mix but what I've
00:27:21
come to learn is that while people can handle the volatility they can't necessarily handle the narrative and I
00:27:27
think that's a very different piece of the pie that has given me a different
00:27:33
appreciation for what my job is as like your portfolio sherpa. You know, I'm not
00:27:37
just here choosing investments. I'm going to give you the I'm going to think
00:27:40
a lot about the experience of investing. And if that means that we didn't dress
00:27:45
you warm enough for the winter, we're going to get you an extra layer of coats, which in this case, I guess, are
00:27:51
bonds. I don't know, this is off the cuff here. Or if you're too hot, you
00:27:54
know, we get you some swim trunks. In a perfect world, the market's down and you
00:27:59
find out that you're too conservative. That like you're in your 70s and you
00:28:03
have more money than you're going to need and so you're going to more closely
00:28:06
align your portfolio with the time horizon of those who are set to inherit it and you get more aggressive in a
00:28:12
downturn. But if you're approaching retirement or having just entered retirement and you realize that you
00:28:19
can't handle the downturn, yeah, it's not ideal to sell while markets are
00:28:25
down, but it is much better to adjust an allocation a little bit than to go to allcash. There is no doubt that getting
00:28:32
entirely out of the market is the wrong move. Naturally when people want to make
00:28:37
such a move I remember in the years 2007 2008 2009 that was a very common conversation I
00:28:45
want to get out of the market everything is going down everything's going down in
00:28:50
flames and we used to call them jumpers like they're jumping out of the market
00:28:54
not jumping off a bill but call them jumpers and like I was working in an office that had no individual offices we
00:29:00
were in a totally open floor work like all the founders and partners of the firm were dispersed equally among us and
00:29:05
so you could hear all the client calls and that to me was like a very different vibe like trying to make sure you don't
00:29:12
get all the way out of the market whereas if somebody's a 60% stock portfolio and they want to go to 50/50
00:29:18
in the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal if it will help you sleep at night it's not that big a deal
00:29:23
and I'm going to reluctantly say oh by the way if you really want to make a change that's going to make a real
00:29:28
difference in the long term should probably make a move by more than 10% but I don't know that off that that's
00:29:34
necessarily really what I want to see people do. I just I recognize that 10 percentage point changes aren't going to
00:29:39
really change your trajectory that much. And so, as a result, if it's really
00:29:42
going to help you sleep at night, that's fine. What I like to do in those instances is document it really for the
00:29:49
benefit of the client. So, if you think like the best traders in the world, and we're definitely not traders, but they
00:29:54
keep journals. They have their reasoning why, like what would make them change their mind and just like create an
00:30:00
archive of like, hey, this is what I heard during our conversation and why you want to make this move. And the
00:30:05
reason you do this is because if it fast forward 6 months or 6 years and the sentiment's totally flipped, you we have
00:30:12
to make sure that we have a a clear road map of why we got to where we were for making these changes. You can you're
00:30:18
allowed to make changes with your portfolio. The you know in a perfect world you pick one strategy and one
00:30:24
allocation you stick with it for as long as possible. But at the end of the day if you can afford to make that change
00:30:29
Yeah, you're right. I think I've I've become a little more lenient in my
00:30:33
sentiment around that issue. >> Yeah, you reminded me right there. There's this uh Cliff Asna story that
00:30:39
maybe you've heard before where I think it's his aunt or his great aunt. I think
00:30:43
she like lives in Australia, but she travels back and forth to I believe it's
00:30:47
the USA pretty often. And she knew that. Cliff asked us, if listeners, if you're
00:30:51
not familiar, he's a hedge fund guy, right? And so she would ask Cliff, she's
00:30:55
like, "Hey, I know you do these currency trades or whatever it is you do. When's
00:30:59
the right time in any given year when I need to move my Australian dollars to US
00:31:04
and US to Australian?" And for years and years and years, Cliff was like, "I
00:31:07
can't tell you that. Like, I can't zoom into it this specific day." And she
00:31:12
interpreted that as like you're just withholding information from me. Like you know the answer but you're
00:31:16
withholding from me. And so eventually he said he kind of got this better EQ emotional intelligence. And he'd say
00:31:22
like you know what Aunt Cindy next Wednesday you should do it next Wednesday because she got the narrative
00:31:28
that she wanted which was she was getting expert advice. And Cliff realized it's all just arbitrary anyway.
00:31:34
So telling her next Wednesday isn't any worse than telling her I don't know. And
00:31:39
there's a similar, not maybe exactly the same, but there's a similar idea that
00:31:43
you just described there, Peter, which is, you know what, if someone is 6040 right now, they feel like they have too
00:31:48
much risk and they want to go, you know, going 5545 or 50/50 makes them feel better for the rest of the year. Now,
00:31:57
okay, all else equal, it's probably not a coin flip. I would rather they stay
00:32:00
6040 if that's better for their plan. But if it does help them sleep at night,
00:32:05
it's close to being a coin flip and I'm okay with that change and it's a lot
00:32:09
better than than saying, you know, a month later, screw you, Jesse. You told me I can't change and now I'm going all
00:32:14
cash like sayanara. It's a much better outcome. So, it is there is this interesting gray area. I also wanted to
00:32:20
touch on the narratives idea a little bit more because one hard thing that I find Peter is I'm certainly not a fake
00:32:28
news kind of conspiracy they're all lying to us person but at the same time I do realize that if we consume too much
00:32:36
news whether that's cable news or just reading you know Google algorithm feeding you the news that you're already
00:32:42
reading it is easy to convince yourself that the narratives will start driving your portfolio decisions and So, one of
00:32:49
my struggles or just one of the hard parts I find about answering reader or listener questions or answering client
00:32:55
questions is when they say, "But haven't you been paying attention to the news?
00:32:59
You know, everything is going badly." And that's been the case. It was the
00:33:02
case when President Biden was in office and some people were saying everything is going badly. And now it's the case
00:33:08
when President Trump is in office and everything. And it really is largely narrative driven. So, yeah. again. I
00:33:13
mean, maybe I'm I'm beating a dead horse here, but what do you say to the the
00:33:17
client who's addicted to the news and is telling you that you're wrong about the
00:33:20
world? >> Yeah, I experience those same conversations. And I try my best to
00:33:27
always anytime the conversation comes up with a concern, the first question I ask
00:33:31
is, "How do you think that impacts earnings?" Because at the end of the
00:33:34
day, the stock market tracks earnings so closely, like shockingly closely. I mentioned working on this book. I have a
00:33:42
whole chapter. It's become such an important idea to me that it's almost an
00:33:45
entire chapter and there's some charts in there that you'll be able to see like
00:33:48
how closely it's all tracked. And the economy and the stock market are not the
00:33:53
same thing because the economy, they're real people losing their jobs. Kid businesses, they have access to sell to
00:34:01
the whole world. Now, are things worse because of a set of policies than they would have been otherwise? Perhaps. I
00:34:08
think that's a logical concern. But does that mean that earnings won't continue?
00:34:13
Let me put this a different way. So I own, you know, stake of the business that I'm in. I'm not selling my business
00:34:20
because of the way the world is going. We're trying to figure out as a business
00:34:23
how to earn as much money as possible. All of my clients who are business owners are doing the same thing. You
00:34:28
know, there is no policy. The front end of my career was mostly with doctors. Uh
00:34:32
when I came to Plane Corporate, I introduced a lot of business owners into like the type of people I worked with.
00:34:36
Mhm. >> And I've never ever ever met a business owner who says, "I'm going to just sell
00:34:42
my business because, you know, the economy is terrible. I'm just going to sell my business." What is it that we
00:34:48
all think we're doing in stocks? We own businesses. And that's where it's a
00:34:52
narrative correction. What's so interesting is so many times people give me all these reasons that things are
00:34:57
bad. I'm like that those are all facts, but they're not necessarily relevant.
00:35:02
That actually comes up with the investment case for a lot of things. Like we don't have to go down a huge
00:35:06
rabbit hole, but like one topic that I really struggle with, for example, are private investments. Like maybe they're
00:35:13
useful. If they're free, I'm all in, but I don't think they're necessary. And
00:35:17
like the primary narrative for using them are all facts. >> I'm just not sure they're relevant. When
00:35:23
you come to things on policy or the economy, all facts, all something that I think might impact you in real life. I
00:35:30
think especially in the last six months, you know, the thing I've kind of been
00:35:34
reflecting on is, hey, this is the sort of thing that's going to affect our everyday lives, but it's, you know,
00:35:39
long-term not really going to affect the way that businesses in the sense that they try to make as much money as they
00:35:46
possibly can. If we get to a point where businesses stop trying to make money, that is a massive problem. I don't
00:35:53
really see that happening. If the US consumer, they say, "Well, they have to
00:35:57
sell to the US consumer." If the consumer is worse off, you're like, "Well, they might be worse off, but
00:36:02
maybe they're going to go sell more in a different country." Well, aren't those
00:36:05
earnings less because of all the tariffs? Maybe. Yeah, but they're still going to try to make as much money as
00:36:10
they can. And this is not the first obstacle that businesses have faced. And so, I think kind of going back to like
00:36:17
these narratives of the economy is looking bad. And look to be clear actually the economy is showing some
00:36:22
like mild signs of strain. What does that mean? Nobody really knows because some
00:36:28
economic data doesn't read out the same way it used to. It all goes back to earnings. And that doesn't mean that you
00:36:34
can't have temporary declines in earnings. But generally speaking, as long as you think companies will keep
00:36:40
trying to make money, earnings have historically grown more than inflation. Well, that's because when there's
00:36:46
inflation, the businesses pass on the price increases and then boom, you got higher earnings. Well, then it's a
00:36:52
matter of well, some companies earn more than others because new markets are created. Think of like Nvidia. So, AI
00:36:59
like the chips that are needed to run AI programming, those were a market for the last like 10
00:37:06
years, but boy did they become an important market in the last year or two. And what's pretty crazy about the
00:37:12
stock market is less than like 5% of stocks drive all the returns basically in any given year. And so it's not that
00:37:19
every company is going to do needs to do well. And maybe that's something I should have uh led with. You get me
00:37:25
talking talking long enough. I'll get to the points eventually, but let's just go
00:37:28
strictly with tariffs. There will be winners and there will be losers. >> But the winners might win so big that
00:37:34
the losers it doesn't really matter. you know, they might more than make up the
00:37:38
earnings lost from some of the smaller companies. And oh, by the way, like some of these losers in the total stock
00:37:44
market make up like less than a tenth of a percent of it. So, it's not to say
00:37:47
there won't be winners and losers. It's not to say that there won't be winners
00:37:50
and losers in the real economy. And those are real concerns. And I feel really bad for a lot of people who this
00:37:57
impacts. And I'm going to say this, I hope the audience doesn't take it the
00:38:01
wrong way. I mean, one of the things about the policies recently as well as all of the policies since the great
00:38:06
financial crisis are that if you are an owner of financial assets, you're probably in pretty good position. So,
00:38:14
does that mean it widens the inequality gap? I'm not an expert in this space,
00:38:18
but my intuition would be yes. >> Mhm. >> If you're worried about being able to
00:38:22
meet your own financial goals, I would say that as long as you're a holder, because again, we're just trying to
00:38:27
outpace inflation here. That's the first principle why we're investing. If you
00:38:30
have financial assets, a lot of these things are, you know, maybe your assets won't grow 15% a year like they did for
00:38:36
a while there. That was unusual. That was not normal. But, but yeah, you're probably going to be okay long term.
00:38:43
>> That's always an interesting one to touch on, Peter. I've struggled with it
00:38:46
as a content creator over time, whether it's writing or podcasting, where we do
00:38:50
notice things where we say, "Boy, this particular tax law is probably going to
00:38:55
benefit, you know, it might make wealth inequality worse." Or there are some
00:38:59
things I know in like the financial independence movement where you say like, "Wait, you could retire with
00:39:04
millions of dollars, artificially, show very little income, and get totally free
00:39:08
healthcare." I mean, the answer is yes, you can. It's difficult for us in our
00:39:12
positions to fundamentally change policy. If someone wanted to ask us, we're free to give our opinions there
00:39:19
and say, "Yeah, and these policies aren't necessarily fair." But at the
00:39:21
same time, if our job here is to give the best advice we can to the individuals listening, yeah, there
00:39:27
there's something to be said where people who own incomeroucing assets have tended to benefit from that ownership
00:39:34
potentially to a disproportionate amount. Okay. But still, you're better off owning them than not. Maybe we'll
00:39:40
leave the uh philosophical discussion to a to another podcast or another episode.
00:39:44
Here's a quick ad and then we'll get back to the show. Every week I send a
00:39:48
quick free email to thousands of readers that shares three simple things. One, my
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00:40:01
financial chart that explains some important concept in the news that week. It's a great primer to boost your
00:40:07
financial knowhow. But Jesse, I don't want another email. >> Well, this might not be for you, but I
00:40:13
do hear you, which is why I make it very short, sweet, and full of only the essentials. A whopping 66% of
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subscribers read my email at least once a month. They're enjoying it, and maybe
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you will, too. You can subscribe for free on the homepage at bestinterest.blog. Again, that's a free no strings attached
00:40:32
subscription at bestinterest.blog. On the topic of recession, the one thing I wanted to touch on with you, and
00:40:38
again, neither you nor I are PhD economists. You might have you, you must >> No, no, no. Definitely not PhD. I got a
00:40:45
major in economics, but I don't think that even makes me remotely an economist.
00:40:50
>> But at least you >> That makes me a college graduate. Yes. You you can speak to this question
00:40:54
probably better than I can though which is I think some people very through through lucky circumstance last week I
00:41:01
got quoted in the in the Wall Street Journal which was wow big big honor and the article right the article was about
00:41:07
recessions and the fact that millennials might be as you alluded to some of the data is looking a little weak and
00:41:14
millennials might start living through what's our third recession the first one
00:41:18
being the great financial crisis which was like potentially one of the worst recessions the world's ever seen. The
00:41:24
second one being CO which reminded us that right anything can happen and and pandemics are real and now a third one
00:41:30
might might begin. But the question I have for you is does every recession have to be a great financial crisis or
00:41:38
come along with something like a global pandemic or is it possible to have a more vanilla recession?
00:41:44
>> Well, it's a great question. It's one of the reasons that a deep understanding of
00:41:51
history, economic and market and financial history can be so helpful to so many adviserss and even individuals
00:41:58
who have lived through these periods either were at a point in their lives where they had less money and didn't
00:42:03
care or they've forgotten or they never really realized what was happening in
00:42:08
the first place. And so recessions take on all shapes and sizes. And there can also, just for the record, a recession
00:42:16
doesn't mean that there's a bare market in stocks. And a bare market in stocks
00:42:19
doesn't mean that there's a recession. They often a bare market tends to
00:42:23
precede a recession. But like 2022 is a great example. Had a bare market in stocks, no recession alongside with it.
00:42:30
You kind of had this intermittent weakness in different sectors of the economy. There was a really good term
00:42:35
for it that's escaping me at the moment, but that's okay. So, I think a recession
00:42:39
doesn't have to be a crisis. Recession to me I think if you're going to try to
00:42:45
simply categorize it you think job loss. So recession you're typically going to
00:42:50
see a lot of job loss that can bring some real life implications and really shape what your world view is. So if you
00:42:58
are you mentioned a millennial if this is your third recession and you lost your job in each one of them you're
00:43:03
going to be really afraid of recession. If you're a millennial who did not lose
00:43:07
their job in any of the recessions and maybe even got to invest opportunistically, you're also going to
00:43:13
view recessions in a very different light. >> I think when you are thinking about
00:43:18
recessions, to me, it's less about your portfolio and more about your balance
00:43:22
sheet. And I tend to think of the two things differently myself in part because my portfolio is so boring. I
00:43:28
mean, I I already kind of referred to it. I own one fund that's 100% stocks. I
00:43:33
don't have any taxable dollars. is just my business. One day I aspire to have
00:43:37
taxable dollars again. But you know, in general, my balance sheet has different risks in a recession than my portfolio
00:43:43
does. My portfolio is all retirement accounts at this point. So I don't need
00:43:48
the money. I'm 40 years old. Let's say I don't need it for 20 to 30 years. A
00:43:53
recession has zero impact on my portfolio. A recession on my balance sheet is a little different. I have some
00:43:59
leverage tied to the commercial loan for the business that I own. my cash levels
00:44:04
like my business is kind of tied to the stock market. So if the stock market's
00:44:08
down, my income's down and my cash levels are low and like suddenly I have to think about balance sheet management
00:44:13
a little bit more. I'm just kind of talking about my own situation, but if you're listening to this, think about
00:44:19
your balance sheet. Think about the cash that's on it. Think about the long-term
00:44:22
liabilities, whether it's a mortgage or student debt or some kind of commercial
00:44:26
loan. Think about your portfolio, both retirement assets and otherwise, and how would a recession, how would a change in
00:44:33
your income stream impact your balance sheet? And I think, you know, if you're
00:44:37
near retirement, it could a lot. And I think that's a very valid concern. I won't make it sound too draconian, but
00:44:43
like a less than ideal scenario for somebody about to retire is that the first year that they're in retirement,
00:44:48
there's a down market. It's not the best thing to have happen because you have to
00:44:52
withdraw for your portfolio and you do permanently impair the portfolio's earning potential by doing that.
00:44:58
>> So what you might do if you're going into retirement is start building up a
00:45:02
cash reserve so that if there is a recession one, it won't delay your retirement. So I've seen that happen
00:45:08
before where people are like going to retire in a given year and then there's
00:45:12
a recession so they hold off retirement for another 6 to 12 months. Well, like look, you don't get to push out your
00:45:17
life expectancy to 6 12 months. So, I view that as not good financial planning. I view that as a missed
00:45:23
opportunity. And so, like having the cash to live through your first recession without needing to draw
00:45:28
through your portfolio is a really good preparation point. Doesn't have to be
00:45:32
something that's built overnight, but I mean, it could depending on the way that
00:45:35
you retire. If you have pensions, you know, you're a little more recession proof. If you're below the age of 50,
00:45:42
your portfolio is probably recession proof. And when I say recession proof, not that it's immune to losses, but like
00:45:47
you really don't need to worry about it. And so again, kind of going full circle
00:45:50
back to my original statement, I tend to think more about how would a recession imp impact my balance sheet than my
00:45:57
portfolio. And if you are retired, I think the same is true. Like yes, you should have a portfolio that is built
00:46:04
that assumes that you're going to have downturns again with a similar magnitude
00:46:07
and frequency as as you've had in the past. And so you've tested it in a Monte
00:46:11
Carlo analysis that shows yes, I can make this withdrawal in a down market. You should be good. Now it's just a
00:46:17
matter of managing the rest of your life. You don't have to wor about worry about losing your job in retirement
00:46:21
because you don't have a job. Do you have to worry about your kids losing a job and how you might respond if they
00:46:26
do? These are the things that I would be talking about more so than is my stock bond allocation right? Should I have
00:46:32
more international instead of more US? You know, do I need to make changes to where my cash is held, etc. I want to
00:46:39
touch on one of those things you said right there, but real quick, you did mention the sequence of returns risk.
00:46:43
So, listeners, I want to point you to uh back on episode 87, we had a deep dive on the sequence of returns risk that's
00:46:50
worth checking out. But right there, Peter, you just mentioned, you know, one of the questions you might ask is,
00:46:54
should you think about your international versus domestic holdings? The last question I want to pepper you
00:47:00
with today as far as 2025 so far has been this uh interesting at least shortterm maybe it'll stay short-term
00:47:08
change in international versus domestic stock returns. What have you seen out there? What kind of conversations have
00:47:14
have you had? I know I I've had some going back to the the news narratives. I've had some people who especially in
00:47:20
the downturn of April said, "Well, let's just go 100% international now." So, I
00:47:25
thought that was a fun conversation to have. But yeah, what do you see out there? Uh what a reversal from like the
00:47:30
past 15 years. So for context, I started my career in the summer of 2007 and basically every year through the
00:47:37
financial crisis into like 2011 2012 when the US debt was downgraded by S&P for the first time, everyone was
00:47:44
obsessed with owning more China. People did not want to own US. US was the worst. We should own all international,
00:47:51
more international. You know, the past 10, 15 years, people have said why do we own international? we should only own
00:47:58
US. And Jesse, I had my first conversation with a client a few weeks ago saying, I want to shift from the US
00:48:05
to international. So, it's finally happening. We're finally here. I'm
00:48:08
thinking, gosh, I can't wait till international outperforms so that I can stop having this conversation. But silly
00:48:14
me, I forgot that then people just want whatever's outperforming. And I'm not
00:48:17
making fun of anyone listening who feels that way. I mean, it's this is just our
00:48:20
job. It's hard not to laugh at it. And I think in general, let's go to the simple
00:48:26
why do we own international? There can be different reasons. I'll tell you why
00:48:29
I own it, Jesse, is I own it for diversification. I don't own it necessarily for higher returns. What is
00:48:37
good about diversification mathematically is if we have two portfolios with the same return and one
00:48:42
is has lower volatility and one has higher volatility. The one with lower volatility is going to compound at a
00:48:49
better rate and as a result have a higher compound return and that's like your real life money. You want high
00:48:55
compound returns. Your average return that you see you know on morning star of a fund doesn't really matter what did it
00:49:00
compound at. So if the two returns are the same but one is lower volatility, you want the lower volatility one. And
00:49:06
that's what diversification does. Now in reality, you do give up a little bit of
00:49:12
return by owning a global portfolio versus just an all US portfolio, but the corresponding reduction in volatility is
00:49:21
great enough that that compound return is attractive enough to diversify. So today when people are thinking about
00:49:29
like should I switch from one to the other you're kind of remembering why you
00:49:32
do it and the research will show that you get that diversification benefit that reduction in volatility benefit
00:49:40
from owning anywhere between 20 and 50% non- US stocks. The problem with the research is nobody knows what the magic
00:49:47
number is. >> And so I would tell you you pick a number and you just stick with it. Like
00:49:53
if I were a gambling man and I had my gun to a head and I had to bet what's going to have higher returns over the
00:49:58
next 10 years, US or international, I'd say international. But you know what? I
00:50:02
would have said that each of the last like four or five years, too, and been wrong. And so I'm a really big proponent
00:50:08
of pick a percentage and stick with it. Now, let me share one other quick narrative because I know we're running
00:50:13
long and I apologize. I'm a wordy guy. I remember being at my former firm. The
00:50:18
year is 2011 and we're looking at the return data set and from like the Msei
00:50:24
data starts in 1970 and so like 1970 through 2011 the returns of an all US portfolio were identical to the returns
00:50:31
of a global portfolio. And so we increased our international allocation and all the reasons showed that we
00:50:39
should do it at the time. But then you fast forward and wow did we make a bad decision. And actually a friend of mine
00:50:45
who has a similar role at a firm similar size as us did the complete opposite this year. You know they had been
00:50:50
overweight international for so long cuz the valuations suggest much like I just
00:50:54
said that international should outperform. They had been overweight international forever and then they
00:50:59
switched to overweight US at the beginning of this year like the exact wrong timing.
00:51:03
>> So you find a percentage between 20 and 50% of your portfolio and don't change
00:51:09
it. We happen to be at 30%. Why are we at 30%. I'll be honest, Jesse. This firm
00:51:14
was started over 40 years ago. I don't know why we did it, but I'm in charge
00:51:17
and we're not changing it. Is there data that could make me change my mind? Of
00:51:21
course. You give me 200 more years worth of data, which I know I can't have, but
00:51:24
like let's say I somehow magically could. I'm open to changing my mind, but
00:51:29
I think I've now watched too many instances of the timing getting wrong. We already know that we can't predict
00:51:34
the future. Why would this situation be any different? And so if you're sitting
00:51:38
in your globally diversified portfolio thinking that you want to move more intern into international or even go all
00:51:44
international, even if you're right, you're going to have to figure out when to switch back.
00:51:48
And chances are you're going to be wrong. Not because I'm making a prediction, but just because like we are
00:51:53
all terrible at timing the market. >> Peter, you are always a treasure trove
00:51:58
of good investing thoughts and that answer is just another example of that. Two vital questions for you. one being
00:52:05
let's let the listeners know where they can listen to you on a more consistent
00:52:08
basis, but then the second one being remind us a little bit about the timeline and the topic of your book that
00:52:14
you're working on right now. >> Okay. Well, yeah, thanks for the invitation to to share. So, my podcast
00:52:20
is called the long-term investor. So, you can go to the long-term.com or you can search the long-term investor in
00:52:26
your podcast app. I did double check the URL I shared earlier if you would like a
00:52:30
free copy of the book. I don't have unlimited, but I am looking at a box right now of like 30ome. You can go to
00:52:36
peterlazeroff.com/freebook. The new book, oh my god, I'm going to give you another URL. The new book you
00:52:43
can learn about by going to, drum roll, the perfect portfoliobook.com. It is due out, I think, in July of 2026.
00:52:53
But that last URL I shared, if you sign up for that, you are not on my normal email list. You're going to get early
00:52:59
access to chapters. You are going to get some special offers for like signed books. There's going to be some
00:53:04
subscriber only webinars and whatever else my marketing person comes up with between now and then. I'm going to do a
00:53:09
lot of behind the scenes stuff so you can get a sense. I know when you sign up for the newsletter like the outline of
00:53:14
the book is the third like you get three automatic emails over 3 days and then you get on a regular update. But you get
00:53:20
an excerpt from a chapter pretty quickly and you get the outline of the book and
00:53:24
I'm going to share chapters as you know in full when they're truly like publisher approved and done. And so,
00:53:30
yeah, would really appreciate anybody checking that out and follow along. And, you know, just like on this podcast, you
00:53:35
comment, you subscribe, you like, you follow. Those are like what help other people who are passionate about these
00:53:40
topics like you. You're listening to us right now. It means you're passionate
00:53:44
about this. When you review like Jesse's podcast or you review my podcast, it
00:53:49
helps other people like you find us. So, we both appreciate when you do that. >> 100%. That's totally true. Well, Peter,
00:53:55
thank you again for stopping by. Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors. >> Yeah, Jesse, thanks for having me.
00:54:00
>> Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors. If you have a question for
00:54:06
Jesse to answer on a future episode, send him an email over at his blog, The Bestinest. His email address is
00:54:12
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00:54:21
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00:54:28
we really appreciate it. We'll catch you on the next episode of Personal Finance
00:54:32
for Long-Term Investors. Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors is a personal podcast meant for education and
00:54:38
entertainment. It should not be taken as financial advice and it's not prescriptive of your financial
00:54:43
situation.