00:00:00
See, we've had a good discussion about
00:00:01
this. We're still getting dragged online
00:00:03
and I get dragged with him. Thanks,
00:00:06
Scott.
00:00:12
Let's get to the news. Uh, first, Tucker
00:00:15
Carlson, one of Trump's biggest
00:00:16
supporters over the last few years, now
00:00:18
says he regrets helping uh get Trump
00:00:21
elected. He offered an apology on the
00:00:22
latest episode of the Tucker Carlson
00:00:24
show while speaking with his uh brother
00:00:26
Buckley, a former Trump speech writer.
00:00:28
Uh uh Tucker and Buckley. Oh my
00:00:31
goodness. Let's uh let's uh listen.
00:00:33
>> You wrote speeches for him. I campaigned
00:00:35
for him. I mean, we're implicated in
00:00:36
this for sure.
00:00:37
>> Yes.
00:00:38
>> It's not enough to say, "Well, I changed
00:00:40
my mind." Or like, "Oh, this is bad. I'm
00:00:43
out." It's like in very small ways, but
00:00:46
in real ways, you and me and millions of
00:00:49
people like us are the reason this is
00:00:51
happening right now.
00:00:52
>> Yes. So, I do think it's like a moment
00:00:56
to wrestle with our own consciences.
00:00:59
Uh, you know, we'll be tormented by it
00:01:02
for a long time. I will be. And and I
00:01:05
want to say I'm sorry for misleading
00:01:07
people in it was not intentional. That's
00:01:09
all I'll say.
00:01:10
>> So, Tucker might be tormented. Is he
00:01:12
trying to pull a Joe Rogan? He's going
00:01:14
back to Trump to to when he needs
00:01:17
something. I mean, he's done this before
00:01:19
in those emails during that tri the the
00:01:22
um the the uh the trial that Fox had and
00:01:26
lost. Uh he would call them demonic. He
00:01:28
was he's been here and I don't think
00:01:30
Trump has been anything but explicit
00:01:32
about what he is for a very long time.
00:01:35
So I'd love to talk about this and the
00:01:37
idea of redemption like that Rogan was
00:01:41
trying to do it and of course the minute
00:01:42
he gave him his psychedelics he shows
00:01:44
right up and how and Green is one you
00:01:47
know you got a lot of push back for for
00:01:50
your Ben Shapiro comments this week this
00:01:52
week I
00:01:53
>> not my comments my interview
00:01:54
>> your interview excuse me but also what
00:01:56
you said about him and stuff so these
00:01:58
people seem to be moving this way in a
00:02:02
way that's is it real is it not
00:02:04
How much should we hold people
00:02:06
responsible for the things they've said
00:02:09
previously? Green has been terrible. Ben
00:02:12
has been many things are not the stuff,
00:02:14
especially around trans and people of
00:02:16
color has been repugnant to me at least.
00:02:19
Um, gay people.
00:02:21
>> But you would put Ben and Tucker in the
00:02:22
same category.
00:02:23
>> I put them I put them all in a different
00:02:25
way because I think a lot of what Ben
00:02:28
has said previously is really if I read
00:02:29
it I mean I can read it to you if you'd
00:02:31
like. I want to talk about the bigger
00:02:32
idea of giving people space. They are
00:02:36
obviously Tucker is and Rogan is and
00:02:39
Theo Vaughn is and Marjorie Taylor Green
00:02:41
are trying even Megan Kelly on this sort
00:02:44
of redemption tour in a weird way. And I
00:02:46
don't I not necessarily believe it, but
00:02:49
I want to talk about this issue of when
00:02:51
you let people say I made a mistake a
00:02:53
couple years ago when I said this
00:02:54
heinous thing. Forgive me. That which is
00:02:58
what Tucker's asking for here.
00:03:01
Look, this is sort of do as I say, not
00:03:02
as I do because I think the right thing
00:03:04
is be careful shaming people for saying
00:03:07
they were wrong and coming back into the
00:03:08
fold, you know, because that's how we
00:03:11
that's how we maintain our virtue and
00:03:13
indignance and elected elect JD Vance. I
00:03:15
think we just need to be a little bit
00:03:16
more when people say I [ __ ] up and
00:03:20
this guy is bad, fine, welcome them. I I
00:03:23
that's the smart thing to do. I have a
00:03:25
difficult time resisting calling, you
00:03:27
know, telling Marjorie Taylor Green or a
00:03:28
difficult time not telling her to sit
00:03:30
down when all of a sudden, you know,
00:03:32
when it no longer matters and she
00:03:35
doesn't get his support or endorsement
00:03:36
to run for Senate, she's all of a sudden
00:03:38
decided that he's bad. For me, when I
00:03:41
saw those comments from Tucker,
00:03:43
I it seemed to me to be I thought I I
00:03:47
think I absolutely know what's going on
00:03:49
here.
00:03:49
>> Mhm.
00:03:50
>> He's running for president, Cara.
00:03:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. And do you realize what an
00:03:54
enormous lane there is for somebody who
00:03:56
has very conservative values, an
00:03:59
enormous media platform, an enormous
00:04:02
army of acolytes that he could weaponize
00:04:05
right away, and by the way is anti-Trump
00:04:09
and anti- the war in Iran, which a huge
00:04:12
swath of Republicans are now. Who
00:04:14
occupies that lane right now? And I
00:04:17
disagree with Kowi on this. I think here
00:04:20
and now
00:04:22
Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP
00:04:24
nominee for president in 2028. Put him
00:04:27
on stage with Rubio and Vance, he's
00:04:31
going to slice and dice them. So, we do
00:04:36
I believe as Democrats and I realize I
00:04:38
bring some bias to the table. I think he
00:04:40
could go six, seven people deep. I think
00:04:43
you know the the eighth mo most likely
00:04:46
person to get the nomination like a
00:04:47
senator Clolobashar or uh an Osaf they
00:04:52
are 10 times better than the person
00:04:54
leading in the prediction platforms for
00:04:57
the Republican party JD Vance we are we
00:04:59
have a deep bench as deep as our bench
00:05:02
is theirs is that shallow
00:05:05
JD Vance I mean he makes
00:05:09
Jesus Christ he makes goals likable I
00:05:12
mean, the guy the guy is unattractive.
00:05:16
They're going to have a field day taking
00:05:18
all of his statements and his gymnastics
00:05:20
and his hipp hypocrisy
00:05:22
and his weirdness. Whether it's saying
00:05:24
that the pope should be more careful
00:05:26
speaking to notions of of of religion. I
00:05:31
mean, he's said so many ridiculous
00:05:33
things that they're going to have a
00:05:35
field day with. Yes, he shifted rather a
00:05:37
lot.
00:05:37
>> And then they'll connect them and they
00:05:38
haven't even started connecting him to
00:05:40
Teal and that [ __ ] weirdness.
00:05:42
>> Well, do do but the shiftingness of this
00:05:45
Tucker thing for example? I mean I
00:05:47
didn't he know or why did he suddenly
00:05:49
know or was it just because it's Israel
00:05:51
and um uh and this Iran war? What what
00:05:55
what is it? It's like how do you
00:05:57
>> It's calculated. It's strategy. in this
00:05:59
case is calculated because I think he's
00:06:01
already said this privately and it got
00:06:02
out in those legal filings and
00:06:04
>> he's always he's always hated Trump. I
00:06:06
think anyone I think Tucker's a smart
00:06:07
guy. I think anyone who's intelligent
00:06:09
>> and whatever you say about Tucker I I
00:06:12
don't know he he's an intelligent
00:06:14
impressive media figure. He is very good
00:06:16
at what he does and he could not stand
00:06:21
Trump and then saw that his audience was
00:06:23
going there and that's the way he was
00:06:24
going to make money was to be just
00:06:26
blindly supportive of Trump. Now he sees
00:06:28
an opening.
00:06:30
He's the he's the leading candidate for
00:06:32
president.
00:06:32
>> The heinous things he said like there a
00:06:34
lot of look greenhouse.
00:06:36
>> He's trying to recast himself. He's
00:06:37
apologized and now he has two years to
00:06:40
take on an anti-Trump
00:06:43
uh Republican. He has two years to
00:06:45
basically carve out and cement a lane of
00:06:49
I am anti-Trump. I'm an anti-Trump
00:06:52
conservative that was anti-war that
00:06:54
neither Vance nor Rubio can carve out.
00:06:57
He's he's very well positioned,
00:07:00
>> right? But then how do you I want to
00:07:02
talk about the bigger picture of
00:07:03
escaping this like the Marjorie Taylor
00:07:05
Greens and and Shapiro was doing that
00:07:08
and and you know we've gotten some a lot
00:07:11
of I get your flag too. Um
00:07:14
>> bring it on.
00:07:16
>> Okay. Explain because you said let me
00:07:17
just push back at you if you don't mind.
00:07:20
Um you said you appreciate his moral
00:07:21
clarity and reasoning. I'm going to take
00:07:24
issue. I think he's very smart. There's
00:07:25
no question. I'm going to take some
00:07:27
issue and I sometimes agree with some of
00:07:29
the things he says, not a lot of them,
00:07:30
but some of them. Okay. Um, he also took
00:07:33
a shot at me that was inaccurate and put
00:07:34
it in the commercial.
00:07:35
>> That's right. On my podcast.
00:07:37
>> Oh, no. You said on your podcast,
00:07:39
>> he took a shot at you.
00:07:40
>> No, no, no. Before previously, he's he
00:07:43
he did call to apologize to me about it,
00:07:45
which I appreciated. But that said, the
00:07:48
moral clarity thing, I mean, I I I would
00:07:50
have trouble h how do you escape things
00:07:53
like, let me just tell you a couple of
00:07:54
things he said, which sort of is why I
00:07:56
found it a little bit disturbing. Um, he
00:07:58
called transgenderism a mental disorder.
00:08:01
He argues that homosexuality should
00:08:03
remain in the DSM as a mental illness.
00:08:06
He's called women who have abortions
00:08:08
baby killers. He's um he said a man and
00:08:10
a woman do a better job of raising a
00:08:12
child than two men or women. That's not
00:08:14
even getting into some of the the
00:08:16
comments he makes about Arabs. He said
00:08:18
this was a long time ago and he walked
00:08:20
back those comments as being dumb when
00:08:23
he said Israelis like to build Arabs
00:08:25
like to bomb and live in open sewage
00:08:27
which I didn't think was something one
00:08:29
should say and any number of men and
00:08:31
women things. But and then Green
00:08:33
herself, let me move on to Green, you
00:08:35
know, is saying a lot of incredible
00:08:37
things. That said, she another person
00:08:39
who attacks trans and gay people uh says
00:08:42
every now and then drops what I consider
00:08:45
to be very anti-Semitic tropes very
00:08:47
quickly once she gets past I don't like
00:08:50
war. It she shifts she she mix she she
00:08:53
she she says Jewish when she means
00:08:56
Israel quite a bit. And so you kind of
00:08:58
see the play there. I I do want to like
00:09:01
how do you I couldn't I don't think I
00:09:04
could talk to to Ben Shapiro because of
00:09:06
a lot of the things unless in some way
00:09:09
how talk about this whether our country
00:09:11
and I just talked to a Hearnden about
00:09:13
this is that most regular people do
00:09:15
forgive people or they say oh he didn't
00:09:18
mean it and Tucker's trying to do the
00:09:20
same thing Joe Rogan's trying to do the
00:09:22
same thing
00:09:23
>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do the same
00:09:24
>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do yes he's
00:09:26
shifting the other way which I I also
00:09:28
have written him and said I find like
00:09:30
what are you doing here? Um and and I we
00:09:33
can disagree with each other, but how
00:09:36
how easy it is is it to let people back
00:09:38
in and what should be the um
00:09:42
I guess what should be the criteria? I
00:09:44
guess there'll be different criteria for
00:09:45
each person.
00:09:47
>> Look, I at a very spiritual level, the
00:09:51
question around letting people back in
00:09:52
is forgiveness is divine and
00:09:56
you know, you want to heir on the side
00:09:57
of forgiveness. Having said that, I
00:09:59
think the more salient question is who
00:10:01
do you decide to platform or not? So,
00:10:04
I've had a lot of people from quote
00:10:06
unquote the manosphere contact me
00:10:07
directly and say, "You have
00:10:08
misrepresented me. You are part of the
00:10:11
manosphere, but you're manosphere light.
00:10:12
We could have a productive conversation.
00:10:14
I'm coming on." And I'm like, to be
00:10:15
blunt, I think what you have said is so
00:10:17
unproductive and so damaging for young
00:10:20
men that I don't want to give you any
00:10:21
oxygen. I don't even want to get in your
00:10:24
face. I don't want to have an argument.
00:10:25
I don't I don't use the most famous
00:10:27
misogynist. I don't use his name because
00:10:30
I don't want to give them oxygen. So the
00:10:31
question is, do you give a guy like Ben?
00:10:34
>> Which one is it? Go ahead.
00:10:35
>> Well, you can probably guess anyways.
00:10:37
>> Andrew Tight.
00:10:38
>> Well, someone who's been jailed for
00:10:41
accusations of of trafficking women.
00:10:44
>> I will use this.
00:10:44
>> I mean, okay. So, but I don't He likes
00:10:48
it. Every time his name is used, the
00:10:50
algorithms elevate his contact content
00:10:52
and other platforms. Yeah, he's number
00:10:53
one on Substack right now.
00:10:54
>> And the reality is if you talk to young
00:10:56
men, most young men have written him off
00:10:58
a long time ago, but I think because we
00:11:01
he's such an easy punching bag. We
00:11:03
mention his name and the algorithms pick
00:11:05
it up and elevate his content. Anyways,
00:11:07
and a lot of young people will be drawn,
00:11:10
especially young men, to people who are
00:11:11
controversial figures. So my feeling is
00:11:14
there's certain people you just choke
00:11:15
off their oxygen supply. So the question
00:11:17
is with someone like Ben, he has said in
00:11:20
my opinion wrong, even maybe vile
00:11:24
things. I said to him, I said in my post
00:11:26
comments after my interview with him,
00:11:28
the thing that really bothers me about
00:11:30
Ben is that he has courageously called
00:11:34
out these far-right people and said,
00:11:36
"We're we can't engage in this
00:11:38
conspiracy theory, this hatemongering."
00:11:41
He said that to that group. I thought
00:11:43
that was fairly courageous of him to
00:11:45
call out those people. My issue or one
00:11:47
of my issues with Ben is that when they
00:11:50
were these people were conspiracy
00:11:52
theorists accusing world leaders, first
00:11:54
ladies of having penises or accusing
00:11:57
people of, you know, just very heinous
00:11:59
things, some of the transgender stuff,
00:12:01
he sort of was a bit of an apologist,
00:12:03
but then when they went against Israel,
00:12:05
that was the the red line for him. And
00:12:08
so I'm like, okay, basically Ben has
00:12:11
decided to excommunicate and call out
00:12:13
people on the far right, not when
00:12:15
they're homophobes or bigots, but when
00:12:17
they become anti-semitic.
00:12:19
And I said that I think I I disagree
00:12:22
with a lot of what Ben says. This is Ben
00:12:24
Shapiro. He grew up in a lower middle
00:12:26
class home. He's so [ __ ] smart. He
00:12:28
got to Harvard. He's built a great
00:12:30
company. He is willing to acknowledge
00:12:32
points. I love just watching him debate
00:12:35
to just take notes on how I make my
00:12:38
progressive viewpoints, how I articulate
00:12:41
my progressive viewpoints in a more
00:12:42
compelling way. And also, I am done with
00:12:45
this notion of this apostate culture on
00:12:49
the left where if I don't choose the
00:12:50
right words or have the right people on
00:12:52
my podcast, people act as if I've
00:12:54
betrayed them. There are there is a
00:12:57
line. I will never have Candace Owens on
00:12:59
my podcast. I will never have Nick
00:13:01
Quentes on my podcast, but I think I
00:13:04
think Ben brings a really
00:13:08
intellectual, adept, clever arguments
00:13:11
and viewpoints to issues I don't agree
00:13:13
with him on. And I think it's a healthy
00:13:15
dialogue.
00:13:16
>> I'm not sure they're saying you
00:13:17
shouldn't have him on. I think it was
00:13:18
the moral clarity thing I think was what
00:13:21
>> Okay, I chose Okay, I chose the wrong
00:13:23
word. I get it.
00:13:24
>> He doesn't back down. He has a view and
00:13:26
then he doesn't back down. He's not
00:13:28
trying to go where the wind goes or or
00:13:29
what gets him most the most likes on
00:13:32
Instagram. I respect that. I think he
00:13:34
genuinely believes what he believes. He
00:13:36
tries to provide evidence and argument.
00:13:39
Um I'm I'm
00:13:42
I said I'm a fan of Ben Shapiro. I'm a
00:13:44
fan. You have to separate the person
00:13:46
from the politics. I think he is an
00:13:48
impressive young man who has who has
00:13:50
demonstrated incredible intellect and
00:13:53
really made an incredibly successful
00:13:55
media company. And this notion that I
00:13:58
believe when we all start barking up the
00:14:00
same tree, we get really [ __ ] stupid.
00:14:02
And I think that people on the left and
00:14:04
the right have a tendency to all want to
00:14:06
find the right words, especially people
00:14:08
on the left, and get angry at anybody
00:14:11
that wants to have a discourse.
00:14:12
>> Come on, Scott. The right has gotten so
00:14:14
sensorious, like they're the ones who
00:14:16
are actually doing the censoring. There
00:14:18
is a purity test on the right right now
00:14:20
around Trump, around everything else.
00:14:22
And pushing these people pushing back is
00:14:24
hard, I have to say. Um, despite I
00:14:28
>> I find that the far right or the right,
00:14:30
not the far right, I find the right just
00:14:32
writes me and you off. They just say
00:14:34
we're livearts.
00:14:36
>> The most hate I get is from progressives
00:14:38
who are like, "We thought we you could
00:14:40
trust
00:14:42
>> when you said Biden was too old. You
00:14:43
don't understand the assignment. We
00:14:44
thought we could trust you,
00:14:46
>> right?"
00:14:46
>> Or, "Oh, wait. Do you remember the hate
00:14:48
I got on that podcast when I said that
00:14:50
transgender women should not be allowed
00:14:51
to compete in women's sports?" Do you
00:14:53
remember that one?
00:14:54
>> Mhm. I mean, it's okay. You are you are
00:14:57
with us 100% or you're against us.
00:15:00
>> Well, that's different than having a
00:15:02
debate over a very complex issue and and
00:15:05
saying transgenderism is a mental
00:15:07
disorder or that homosexuality.
00:15:09
>> Say that.
00:15:10
>> No, he did. Ben did. Okay. So, should we
00:15:12
not ever talk to Ben because he said
00:15:14
that?
00:15:15
>> I I think we
00:15:16
>> should not ask him to defend his
00:15:17
comments.
00:15:18
>> I I think it's that's what I'm asking
00:15:19
you. It's a really difficult thing. I've
00:15:21
thought about having Marjorie Taylor
00:15:22
Green on and then I read a lot. I'm
00:15:24
like, uh, I'm going to like just cuz I
00:15:26
like what she's saying. I I don't trust
00:15:29
any of these people. I'll be hon. And I
00:15:32
just think they see the wind
00:15:34
>> and I think they have legitimate
00:15:35
problems with Trump. I do think Green,
00:15:38
for example, is an America first and
00:15:40
she's always been. I think she's very
00:15:41
committed to the Epstein issues and I
00:15:43
think she is. I don't I don't I I think
00:15:46
she's sincere in this in that. And you
00:15:48
can hear it goes way back and I go and I
00:15:50
go way back to read her. But then when
00:15:52
it's accompanied by this other stuff,
00:15:54
how do you set I think it's gonna be a
00:15:56
very hard road back for everybody.
00:15:58
>> But let me just create let me just call
00:16:00
out a distinction. I struggle with the
00:16:02
thing same thing you're struggling with.
00:16:03
You have more license I think because
00:16:04
you're a journalist and so
00:16:08
getting Marjorie Taylor Green on on with
00:16:10
Caris Swisser and talking to her and put
00:16:12
and you're you're a great interviewer.
00:16:13
You're a much better interviewer than me
00:16:15
knowing how to forcefully push back. You
00:16:17
are you are you are great at that. But
00:16:19
I'll give you an example.
00:16:20
I don't think Ben would ever stalk
00:16:23
people who came to testify in front of
00:16:25
Congress who were Parkland shooter
00:16:26
survivors and follow them for four
00:16:28
blocks accusing them of lying and being
00:16:32
crisis actors. I don't see Ben Shapiro
00:16:34
ever doing something like that. At the
00:16:36
end of the day, this is your call and
00:16:39
people can decide that. All right, if
00:16:40
you're
00:16:41
>> That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking
00:16:42
about more as our country like when do
00:16:44
we let it go? Like that's going to be
00:16:47
the reason I'm asking is I just did this
00:16:49
incredible interview with the status
00:16:51
like when does it
00:16:53
>> the statute of limitations and when
00:16:54
people
00:16:55
>> when does do all of us have to just
00:16:56
leave Trump behind us and all the bad
00:16:59
and I'm not I blame him but I blame
00:17:02
ourselves because it's really hard and
00:17:05
it's and it's and the jumping like
00:17:08
listen I got like attacked for saying
00:17:11
Reese Witherspoon was just saying try
00:17:12
AI.
00:17:13
>> That was weird. That was just stupid. It
00:17:14
was weird, but it was also but I also
00:17:17
get it like the rage about it's
00:17:19
>> the machine looking for soft tissue to
00:17:21
pretend they're virtuous. That's stupid.
00:17:23
>> You know the right virtues you virtuous
00:17:25
we all
00:17:26
>> that's everybody everybody who's angry
00:17:27
about AI there's a there's there's
00:17:30
there's different this is right
00:17:32
>> that's all I'm saying is I get where
00:17:34
it's coming from. I get where it's
00:17:35
coming from and so I discount it. And
00:17:37
sometimes you know I was talking to
00:17:38
Claire this morning about some skull was
00:17:40
was being mad about his socks or
00:17:43
something like that. And I said to her,
00:17:45
it was we were driving to school and she
00:17:46
goes, "Oh yeah, he was really mad about
00:17:47
the socks." I said, "You know, he wasn't
00:17:49
mad about the socks. He was mad cuz I've
00:17:51
been away for a few days and he wanted
00:17:53
me to drive him to school and I'm
00:17:54
driving you." And I said, "Sometimes
00:17:56
people are mad about things that have
00:17:58
nothing to do
00:17:59
>> for a six-year-old. I couldn't have that
00:18:00
conversation with my 18-year-old."
00:18:02
>> And it was an interesting conversation.
00:18:04
>> You bring up Freud or Yungian
00:18:05
resentment.
00:18:06
>> No, I just used Claire's so smart. It's
00:18:10
crazy.
00:18:10
>> Let's watch Frozen.
00:18:12
>> Watch Frozen. Frozen, too. But it's just
00:18:14
I think we should be talking like what
00:18:16
is what do we have to do to get back to
00:18:19
some level of disagreement? And I do
00:18:22
think I I there's no question that the
00:18:24
Greens, the Shapiro, the Owens, the Meg
00:18:28
uh Megan Kelly uh and definitely people
00:18:31
on the left too, who I don't listen to
00:18:33
as much, which is interesting, have
00:18:35
tried to like poke at us and make us
00:18:38
really dislike each other in a way that
00:18:40
I think has been very dangerous. And at
00:18:43
some point there has to be some level of
00:18:45
reckoning over that because
00:18:47
>> the right word,
00:18:48
>> you know, it's a reckoning. And what is
00:18:50
that reckoning is really important.
00:18:52
>> Well, three points. There's some nuance
00:18:54
here. I would not group all of those
00:18:55
people into the same group. I think
00:18:57
there's different levels of
00:18:59
menaciousness and disingenuous and
00:19:01
saying hateful things for money. Um, the
00:19:05
right word. So, the first is
00:19:08
um what I'll call camera culture or
00:19:10
forgiveness. I think in a culture where
00:19:12
everyone's following each other around,
00:19:13
where everyone's tweets live forever, if
00:19:15
we don't expand the aperture of
00:19:17
forgiveness, we're just all going to
00:19:18
[ __ ] hate each other. I say stupid
00:19:20
[ __ ] all the time. I I'm putting out 14
00:19:23
[ __ ] hours a week of content. I'm
00:19:25
shooting from the hip. I If an
00:19:27
18-year-old shows up to a a a protest on
00:19:31
campus and says from the river to the
00:19:33
sea, not understanding how some people
00:19:34
perceive that, you know, I don't want to
00:19:36
kick him out of school. I don't want to
00:19:38
ruin his career. I don't want to I don't
00:19:40
want to contact JP Morgan, which some
00:19:42
people want to do, and get make sure he
00:19:43
doesn't his summer internship is
00:19:45
rescended. We have to get to a level of
00:19:48
more forgiveness in a culture where
00:19:50
there's incentive to find make a cartoon
00:19:53
of people's comments and press on the
00:19:55
soft tissue and and be outraged behind
00:19:58
our computers. I I and we have gone so
00:20:00
far from that. We need I'm trying to do
00:20:02
that. I'm trying not to call out people
00:20:04
for clicks when I see an opportunity.
00:20:06
I'm trying to take the temperature down.
00:20:08
The word you bring up though and it's
00:20:10
different is reckoning. And that is I do
00:20:13
not think this nation heals until there
00:20:16
is some form of reckoning. Marjorie
00:20:18
Taylor Green and Nancy Pelosi should
00:20:21
discourage their profits from insider
00:20:23
trading. The people who were in charge
00:20:25
or supervisors of ICE in Minneapolis
00:20:28
where an ICU nurse somehow ended up with
00:20:31
10 bullets in his person, those people
00:20:34
should be should be hauled in front of
00:20:36
committees and punished. I'm not saying
00:20:38
maybe they go to jail. When when there
00:20:40
are people in geopolitical advantage,
00:20:42
they should disorgge those profits and
00:20:44
be put on trial. There needs to be a
00:20:48
reckoning here. At the same time, with
00:20:50
respect to what people say or their
00:20:52
views or being incendiary or playing
00:20:54
into a far-left or a far-right media
00:20:56
ecosystem that then elevates it online,
00:20:59
we need to massively increase the
00:21:01
aperture around forgiveness.
00:21:03
>> Yeah, I think well, that's well said.
00:21:05
See, we've had a good discussion about
00:21:06
this. We're still getting dragged online
00:21:09
and I get
00:21:11
>> Thanks.
00:21:11
>> I think you should do the interview with
00:21:12
I would tune in for the interview with
00:21:14
Marjorie Taylor Green. I would love to
00:21:16
see what you said and how you how you
00:21:17
approach it. I think that would be
00:21:19
>> one of the reasons I would not interview
00:21:20
MTG is I don't feel like I have the
00:21:23
skills to handle that interview.
00:21:25
>> Well, yeah, it's hard because it's part
00:21:26
of me I'm like go girl and part of me is
00:21:28
like really some of the heinous things
00:21:29
you've done. Shall I? There's a point.
00:21:31
It's it's a difficult thing because you
00:21:33
know I just I'm like you very clearly
00:21:36
have issues with Jewish people like it's
00:21:38
uh you know you'd have to have an honest
00:21:40
convers you'd have to be open to an
00:21:42
honest conversation instead of just clap
00:21:44
clap clap we forgive you.
00:21:45
>> Can I give you can I give you a couple
00:21:46
real world examples? I was supposed to
00:21:48
go on Bill Maher and I found out that
00:21:51
Steve Bannon was one of the panelists.
00:21:53
you did. You removed yourself.
00:21:54
>> And I said, "Uh, this guy made what
00:21:56
looked like to me a Nazi salute."
00:21:59
And a lot of people say, "No, he didn't.
00:22:01
If I had more skills, I could handle
00:22:03
that conversation." I don't have that
00:22:05
skills, those skills. I I as a non to my
00:22:09
mother, I I feel like I would have to
00:22:11
[ __ ] say something to him on live TV.
00:22:13
I do not want to hijack Bill Mar show,
00:22:17
and I don't know how to thread that
00:22:18
needle, so I backed out. I was invited
00:22:20
to go on Steve Bartlett's podcast
00:22:22
tomorrow. I was supposed to be on with
00:22:24
Eric Schmidt on a discussion on AI. I
00:22:26
have a lot of respect for the brain of
00:22:28
Eric Schmidt. I I would learn a lot. I'm
00:22:30
like, I'm in. And they're like, Eric
00:22:31
can't do it. Can you come on in and this
00:22:33
panel with Sanker Chank? I mean, every
00:22:36
time I see that guy, he's yelling. I
00:22:38
don't want to get into a yelling match
00:22:40
with anybody.
00:22:40
>> You went on that Piers when I told you
00:22:42
not to.
00:22:43
>> Well, I didn't know he was going to he
00:22:44
was going to ambush me with some
00:22:46
farright weirdo.
00:22:48
>> Yeah. So, and by the way, I I I like
00:22:51
Pierce,
00:22:52
>> and he's been very generous to me. And I
00:22:54
called the producer and I said, "Never
00:22:55
again. Don't call me. You didn't warn me
00:22:57
that you were going to bring on some
00:22:58
right-wing weirdo to try and say to call
00:23:01
me desperate and unamerican. I don't
00:23:03
need that shit." And it wasn't a civil
00:23:05
conversation. It was you just trying to
00:23:06
get the YouTube algorithm to have a call
00:23:09
out moment such that you'd get another
00:23:11
[ __ ] $40 from AdSense. I'm not going
00:23:14
to engage in that. At the same time, I'm
00:23:16
not going to get on with I think that
00:23:18
guy is far left who every time I see him
00:23:20
is yelling. I'm like that that what good
00:23:23
does that do me? What what good does
00:23:26
that do the ecosystem or any sense of
00:23:28
civil discourse that this nation needs
00:23:30
to move toward?
00:23:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see how it goes.
00:23:34
It'll be interesting.
00:23:35
>> I'm so indignant right now.
00:23:36
>> What you
00:23:37
>> I'm so indignant right now. What do you
00:23:38
call What do you call What do you call a
00:23:41
black man on the moon?
00:23:42
>> Oh, no. Don't. Please don't. You're I'm
00:23:44
gonna have to fire you soon. What?
00:23:47
>> An astronaut. You [ __ ] racist.
00:23:48
>> Oh, I love it. That guy is amazing. He's
00:23:51
>> with his dog. That guy is amazing.
00:23:53
>> He's amazing. Like, oh, all right.
00:23:55
>> They make $150,000 a year.
00:23:57
>> One of them said I wouldn't fly with a
00:23:59
Who was the person who said I wouldn't
00:24:01
fly with a black pilot?
00:24:02
>> It was Charlie Kirk.
00:24:03
>> Was it Kirk?
00:24:04
>> He was making a point around DEI that he
00:24:05
thinks there's And by the way, Elon's
00:24:07
done it too.
00:24:08
>> Just so you know, how airlines I'm not
00:24:09
forgiving how airlines handle DEI. They
00:24:11
do widen the aperture in terms of who
00:24:13
makes it into the applicant pool, but
00:24:16
any pilot, female, male, black, white,
00:24:19
Latino, has to pass the exact same test
00:24:21
at the same level.
00:24:22
>> Ridiculous. It's [ __ ] ridiculous.
00:24:23
That those things I'm sorry. I'm not
00:24:25
going to be forgiving. Anyway, the that
00:24:26
pilot is amazing. Um, all right, we're
00:24:28
moving on. Speaking of Speaking of
00:24:30
>> I didn't mean to sound offensive
00:24:33
a lot in the last 24 hours.
00:24:34
>> I know. But you know what? It's good to
00:24:35
talk about because everyone wants me to
00:24:36
dump you.
00:24:38
>> Everyone wants you to dump me.
00:24:40
>> I'm not We're not doing it.
00:24:42
I'm just telling you today today today
00:24:44
I'm Scott did I have an effective and
00:24:48
substantive conversation about the issue
00:24:50
we talked about
00:24:52
>> just all right I'm moving on speaking of
00:24:54
people we may have to forgive Apple will
00:24:56
have a new CEO for the first time in 15
00:24:58
years come September Tim Cook is
00:25:00
stepping down as CEO and will move into
00:25:01
a new role as Apple's executive chairman
00:25:04
Trump praised uh Cook in a post on true
00:25:07
social also saying quote I was very
00:25:08
impressed with myself to have the head
00:25:09
of Apple calling willing to kiss my
00:25:11
ass," unquote. Unfortunately, this was
00:25:13
accurate. Uh John Turnis, the head of
00:25:15
Apple's hardware engineering, will
00:25:17
succeed Cook, first product person
00:25:19
running the company in a while. He's
00:25:21
been with the company for 25 years,
00:25:22
overseeing the engineering of the
00:25:24
iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Uh talk about the
00:25:27
legacy and you will have to include sort
00:25:30
of being tainted by this relationship
00:25:31
with Trump, including recently the
00:25:33
statue and the Melania thing. and Turnis
00:25:37
is joining Apple as the company is
00:25:38
fighting for a space in the AI race and
00:25:41
product innovation. Um, talk a little
00:25:43
bit about predictions for the Turnis era
00:25:45
and looking back at the Cook era. May I
00:25:48
start? I have to say he's 10x the amount
00:25:51
the value of the company. When when
00:25:53
Steve gave him the reigns and then died,
00:25:56
everyone thought it was curtains for the
00:25:58
company and that has not been the case.
00:26:00
He has been innovative with AirPods and
00:26:02
watch and not just not as sexy as as
00:26:05
Steve Jobs has been or as visionary. So
00:26:08
I think he's been a great um uh a great
00:26:11
leader for them. That said, he was
00:26:13
tarnished by some China all the China
00:26:16
manufacturing stuff for sure um because
00:26:18
he's a logistics guy. He he was maybe
00:26:20
too much of an automaton on that those
00:26:22
human rights issues. And then the
00:26:24
President Trump stuff is not a great
00:26:26
look, but I think he was taken one for
00:26:27
the team would be my guess in that
00:26:30
regard. Uh, as a person, I really like
00:26:32
him. He's he's been he's a really um
00:26:36
calm person. I think he could have been
00:26:38
slightly more outspoken about gay
00:26:41
issues, but that's his choice. Again, I
00:26:43
don't I don't force gay people have to
00:26:45
talk about it, but he's a good um role
00:26:47
model. Probably could have talked a
00:26:48
little bit more about it. That's my only
00:26:50
But that's again his choice. Um, and I
00:26:52
get why people don't want to. So, your
00:26:54
thoughts?
00:26:55
>> I think people's careers are, you know,
00:26:57
the second in the blink of a of the
00:26:59
corporate world in the universe. That
00:27:01
second 35 mm, right?
00:27:04
It no one gets all 35 mm perfect and Tim
00:27:09
Cook's running at 34 a 12. So to not,
00:27:12
this is his legacy. Tim Cook is the most
00:27:16
successful successor in corporate
00:27:18
history.
00:27:19
He talk about a guy that was set up to
00:27:21
fail by virtue of the idolatry of the
00:27:24
person who was taking over for it. They
00:27:25
were immediately second guess. His
00:27:27
record was pretty amazing. The record
00:27:29
itself, not just idol.
00:27:31
>> Yeah. It's like, okay, who inherits
00:27:32
Jesus's mand?
00:27:34
>> Yeah.
00:27:34
>> Steve Jobs was the new Jesus because we
00:27:37
had shifted from idolizing our athletes
00:27:40
and our government officials to the
00:27:42
idolatry of innovators as identified and
00:27:44
marked by Steve Jobs and then who was
00:27:46
taken from us early like Jesus. I mean
00:27:48
it was just he was he has become a
00:27:51
mythical godlike figure.
00:27:53
>> So any guy taking you want to talk about
00:27:56
the biggest shoes to fill in history and
00:27:58
what did Tim Cook do? He took the stock
00:28:01
up tfold
00:28:03
operationally. He built the most
00:28:05
probably the most robust impressive
00:28:08
supply chain in history. He figured out
00:28:10
a way in a foreign nation to take
00:28:12
advantage of the collision between
00:28:14
advanced manufacturing and low wages and
00:28:18
somehow get 2,000 parts to one place or
00:28:21
different places for assembly and build
00:28:24
a supercomput for $400 that if you tried
00:28:26
to build it anywhere else would cost
00:28:28
$4,000.
00:28:30
He figured it out. He also uh created
00:28:34
people say he wasn't a new product guy.
00:28:36
My favorite technology in history in
00:28:40
history.
00:28:40
>> Mhm.
00:28:41
>> These things.
00:28:42
>> The AirPods. You love your AirPods.
00:28:44
>> And AirPods if they were their own
00:28:45
business would be a Fortune50 company.
00:28:48
>> And it's I think of it's the most
00:28:49
successful piece of jewelry in history
00:28:51
in the highest margin.
00:28:53
>> In addition, what he decided to do was
00:28:55
to say, "Okay, I'm not going to launch
00:28:57
new products. I'm going to take existing
00:29:00
products and applications and take a
00:29:02
phone and evolve it to a supercomput
00:29:05
where you have payments, where you have
00:29:07
music.
00:29:08
>> So, an ecosystem is what you're talking
00:29:10
about creating an eos.
00:29:11
>> But he he took the iPhone from a phone
00:29:14
>> to a supercomput in your pocket that was
00:29:16
media transactions.
00:29:18
>> Yeah. Ecos
00:29:19
>> and and it became the iPhone pulled off
00:29:22
the impossible. And that is if you want
00:29:24
really high margins like Ferrari, it's a
00:29:26
niche with limited volumes. If you want
00:29:29
super high volumes like a Toyota, you
00:29:31
have to price it to get low margins. The
00:29:33
iPhone is the only product in history
00:29:35
that's managed to get the production
00:29:37
volume of a Toyota with the margins of a
00:29:39
Ferrari. The iPhone has created more
00:29:42
gross margin dollars than any product in
00:29:44
history. Arguably speaking, the iPhone
00:29:46
is the most successful product in
00:29:50
history. There's been nothing like it.
00:29:53
He did it with a lot of grace.
00:29:55
There wasn't anyone [ __ ] posting or
00:29:57
leaving or filing lawsuits. And if you
00:29:59
want to talk about Apple's ascent past,
00:30:02
say, Samsung or Android, go buy a phone,
00:30:05
an Android phone. You're you're talking
00:30:07
to a guy with a name tag named Roy who's
00:30:09
living with his parents in a bad place
00:30:11
with bad carpeting. And then you
00:30:13
>> It's still not great. I'll tell you
00:30:14
that. There's there's some beautiful
00:30:17
there's there's some beautiful form
00:30:18
factors that I like. I wish there was
00:30:20
more. No, I mean the retail the
00:30:21
distribution for Android.
00:30:22
>> Got it. Yeah.
00:30:23
>> You go into an Apple store.
00:30:25
>> Mhm.
00:30:25
>> If they opened a coffee store, it
00:30:27
probably be if they opened a coffee
00:30:28
counter in the Apple store, it' probably
00:30:29
be the highest grossing retail in the
00:30:32
world. And by the way, it became the
00:30:34
highest grossing per square foot retail
00:30:35
besting Tiffany in the early odds.
00:30:38
>> Let me ask you his negatives. What would
00:30:40
you say? I would definitely think the
00:30:42
the controversies around China
00:30:44
certainly, but that they seem in the
00:30:46
rearview mirror. What about the Trump
00:30:47
relationship? the China one. Look, he he
00:30:51
had to take a huge risk on a company
00:30:53
that we had geopolitical tensions with.
00:30:55
He couldn't look into a crystal ball.
00:30:56
And quite frankly, it looks as if we've
00:30:58
it looks as if we've survived it. And I
00:31:00
would argue I would argue that China and
00:31:03
the US have a vested interest in
00:31:05
figuring out a way to get along because
00:31:07
Apple is so important to China and China
00:31:09
is so important to this US company
00:31:11
called Apple. I think cross commerce, I
00:31:14
forget the German word for it, is firms
00:31:16
that trade trade with each other are
00:31:18
just less likely to go to war with each
00:31:20
other. So I I I am a huge fan of what he
00:31:23
has pulled off in China. The Trump
00:31:24
stuff, we were very vocal about it. It
00:31:27
pissed me off. I think Tim Cook, there
00:31:30
are few people who have benefited more
00:31:31
from the American system and civil
00:31:33
rights and gay rights and rule of law
00:31:36
and systemic laws around business and a
00:31:38
lack of favoritism and a lack of tariffs
00:31:40
than Tim Cook. And yet he, you're right,
00:31:43
he played the game. His priority was
00:31:45
shareholders, so he was strategic and
00:31:47
kissed the guy's ass. I get it. It would
00:31:49
have been nice if he had been a little
00:31:51
bit more forceful and pushed back, but
00:31:53
the reality is neither did the other 499
00:31:56
S&P 500 CEOs. So quite frankly, I think
00:31:58
he gets a
00:32:00
>> You don't see Nadella there. You don't
00:32:02
see like
00:32:03
>> Nadella went to the meeting. He
00:32:05
>> he went to the meeting, but I'm talking
00:32:06
about the like
00:32:08
>> he didn't go to the Melania premiere.
00:32:09
>> He didn't. and he didn't do the bring
00:32:11
him a present and just it was I thought
00:32:13
it was tainting of his long very decent
00:32:16
tenure and I don't think it I think I
00:32:18
know I have a feeling I know why he did
00:32:19
it. He's like, "It had to be done
00:32:21
essentially. I have to kiss up to him."
00:32:24
And then of course, Trump returned the
00:32:25
favor by saying, "He kissed my ass."
00:32:27
Which is just like typical.
00:32:28
>> Well, this is the question I would ask.
00:32:30
>> Yeah.
00:32:30
>> Of all the CEOs on a balanced scorecard
00:32:34
>> of having a good team, fostering
00:32:35
leadership, of of showing grace, not
00:32:39
posting other people. Who scores higher
00:32:41
than Tim Cook in the history of
00:32:42
business?
00:32:43
>> Cook or or Nadella? I would say Cook or
00:32:45
I think Navel really pulled the company
00:32:46
together.
00:32:47
>> So, we got a 99 point. He got 1590 on
00:32:50
the SAT. He did. He got one question
00:32:51
wrong. I mean,
00:32:52
>> okay, I got it. I'm just asking the
00:32:54
question. I would agree with you.
00:32:56
>> This guy is a first ballot hall of fame
00:33:00
>> 100% and American citizen
00:33:02
>> 100%. And when when people leave the
00:33:05
stage, everyone should just be
00:33:07
>> He's also leaving at the right time, by
00:33:08
the way.
00:33:09
>> Yeah. He's stepping down. He's not
00:33:10
clinging to power like an African
00:33:12
dictator.
00:33:13
>> So, um, Turnis, very quickly,
00:33:15
predictions for the Turnis era. Again,
00:33:19
talk about big shoes to fall. The the
00:33:21
only um you know him better than I do.
00:33:23
The only thing I find fascinating about
00:33:24
this guy is that he tinkers with like
00:33:27
go-karts and he's a hardware guy. So, it
00:33:29
says more about the board. They said
00:33:31
we're about hardware. We're not about
00:33:33
services and this is about trying to
00:33:35
innovate about products. You know him
00:33:36
better than I do.
00:33:37
>> I don't know him. I've met him a couple.
00:33:39
He wasn't he didn't stick out compared
00:33:40
to some of the others there that were in
00:33:42
the contention. But I do think he's
00:33:45
having a product person is really
00:33:46
important because they've got to really
00:33:48
evolve the iPhone in ways and and I
00:33:50
still have to get some glasses thing
00:33:52
going. I know you're against it, but
00:33:54
there's some lighter glasses thing that
00:33:56
has to get going. I think they haven't
00:33:57
been great in the home. They've been
00:33:59
okay. Um, and so there's a lot of and
00:34:02
and then of course how how AI is
00:34:04
integrated into all these products is
00:34:06
going to be with in with privacy and
00:34:08
safety, especially given the rage about
00:34:11
AI. Um, I know you all think AI is not
00:34:13
going to happen, but it's going to
00:34:14
happen. So I think that's I think we'll
00:34:16
see. I think it, you know, again, this
00:34:18
is a group of people that have been
00:34:19
there forever, and I would have liked to
00:34:22
see maybe a little bit more um shakeup,
00:34:26
but I see why they don't. Why would
00:34:27
they? and because it's working and so
00:34:29
he's, you know, he's younger, he's more
00:34:31
vibrant, and we'll see how he does.
00:34:33
Anyway, uh let's go on a quick break.
00:34:34
When we come back, uh new deals, new
00:34:37
details about SpaceX IPO.
00:34:40
>> Support for the show comes from BMC.
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00:36:44
Scott, we're back. as SpaceX Blockbuster
00:36:46
IPO approaches. The company is doubling
00:36:48
down on AI, striking a deal with Cursor,
00:36:50
a coding startup for a possible $60
00:36:52
billion acquisition.
00:36:54
Uh, also some new details from the IPO
00:36:56
filing. Elon and a group of insiders
00:36:58
will have control of the company through
00:37:00
a dual stock uh dual class stock
00:37:02
structure. What a surprise. Elon
00:37:04
increased his stake in SpaceX last year,
00:37:06
buying $1.4 billion worth of stock from
00:37:09
current and former employees. He stands
00:37:10
to get 60 million more in shares if
00:37:13
SpaceX market cap reaches $6.6 trillion
00:37:16
and the company completes a plan to
00:37:18
build data centers in space. Slight
00:37:20
hitch. The IPO perspectus warns that
00:37:23
data centers and plans for the moon and
00:37:25
Mars rely on unproven tech and might not
00:37:27
be commercially viable. Um let me just
00:37:31
add um talk about these plans and in
00:37:34
other news Tesla is out with it latest
00:37:36
earnings reporting better than expected
00:37:37
numbers but still way below levels from
00:37:39
a few years ago. One bright spot. The
00:37:41
company said demand around the world is
00:37:42
growing obviously because of rising fuel
00:37:44
prices increased demand for EVs and
00:37:46
they're the front runner in that shares
00:37:48
initially rose in extended trading but
00:37:50
gave up those gains since Elon warned
00:37:52
that significant increase in capital
00:37:53
capbacks which he noted was going to
00:37:56
start at $25 billion for robots and all
00:37:59
sorts of large ambitious projects. I
00:38:01
don't really care that he does those.
00:38:02
Cool. If it work great, if they don't,
00:38:05
too bad, you know, shareholders. Um, you
00:38:08
know, again, it's the Tesla, the car
00:38:10
business is not the business anymore, so
00:38:12
he's got to reach for something else. I
00:38:14
don't fault them for that. Um, any uh
00:38:17
any thoughts about the IPO and then
00:38:19
Tesla?
00:38:21
>> Well, the the the news is their
00:38:24
acquisition or announced acquisition of
00:38:26
Kurser and my sense is that XAI has not
00:38:30
figured out a way to develop a revenue
00:38:32
model or a product that garners revenue.
00:38:34
Well, all the all the founders have left
00:38:36
except for Elon. I think there's nobody
00:38:38
left.
00:38:38
>> Cursor is their attempt, I think, to
00:38:40
bolt on a front end that has a
00:38:41
commercially viable product.
00:38:42
>> Yeah, you're right.
00:38:43
>> The other observation I would make is
00:38:45
that,
00:38:46
>> you know, liars use statistitians lie
00:38:48
and liars use statistics. Some of these
00:38:52
numbers are just such [ __ ] So, when
00:38:54
OpenAI said they were raising money at
00:38:56
850 billion, okay, call it a trillion if
00:38:59
you guarantee me a 17% preferred return
00:39:01
and I have a liquidity preference. I
00:39:02
don't care what number you put on the
00:39:04
the press release. And then, you know, I
00:39:07
mean, Anthropic here and now is worth
00:39:09
more than um than OpenAI, but according
00:39:13
to OpenAI's press release, they're worth
00:39:15
two and a half times. The number that's
00:39:16
a lie here that I'd want to know more
00:39:18
information about is a $60 billion
00:39:20
acquisition price. And I would bet it's
00:39:22
structured something along the lines of
00:39:23
the following. it. If we go public and
00:39:26
get a one and a half or two trillion
00:39:28
dollar um market cap, we're going to
00:39:30
give you options where 3% of the
00:39:32
company, which da da da is $60 billion.
00:39:34
They don't have $60 billion in cash
00:39:36
anywhere. So,
00:39:37
>> and also Andre's all mobbed up with that
00:39:39
one, I think, and a whole bunch. They're
00:39:41
all the same people,
00:39:42
>> but they want to put out a headline
00:39:44
number of $60 billion to canote more
00:39:47
value in this thing than is probably
00:39:48
there. Let me be clear. No one no one is
00:39:51
cashing a check for $60 billion right
00:39:53
now. So look, I think that look Musk
00:39:57
with respect to business and what I'll
00:39:59
call perception and pulling and a
00:40:03
narrative around getting access to cheap
00:40:05
capital to pull the future forward. He's
00:40:06
likely the best in history. Maybe with
00:40:08
the exception of I don't know Netflix
00:40:11
and Amazon played that game really
00:40:13
really deafly as well. But his ability
00:40:16
to kind of continue to say no look over
00:40:18
here as I stuff the rabbit into the hat.
00:40:19
Oh, wait. You figured out Tesla is like
00:40:21
just a mediocre auto company with low
00:40:24
mark. Wait, look over here. Oh, SpaceX
00:40:26
is only got 12 billion in revenues and a
00:40:28
one and a half. Oh, wait. Look over
00:40:29
here. I mean, it's just and integrating
00:40:33
space connectivity, broadband,
00:40:35
satellites, AI, autonomous
00:40:38
>> centers in space. Not a bad idea.
00:40:40
>> It is like every 8-year-old boy's dream.
00:40:43
I mean, it's like a company envisioned
00:40:45
for an 8-year-old.
00:40:46
>> Yeah.
00:40:47
>> But he is very good at this. He's very
00:40:49
good at in creating 1 plus one plus a
00:40:53
little bit of jazz hands equals $1.5
00:40:56
trillion.
00:40:58
And I look at this acquisition makes no
00:41:00
[ __ ] sense. It's [ __ ] The $60
00:41:02
billion number, it's probably a good
00:41:05
idea because XAI needs more human
00:41:07
capital and it needs something. It it
00:41:09
quite frankly it just needs more product
00:41:10
management.
00:41:11
>> He has to hide things in things. That's
00:41:12
why Twitter went into Grock, right, into
00:41:14
XAI because you had to hide it in there,
00:41:17
like the losses and the declines and
00:41:19
whatever. It's still hugely influential
00:41:21
for him. Same thing with this is his
00:41:24
Grock thing like all the people who he
00:41:26
started it and touted it with have left.
00:41:28
Um, so he's got to make, you know, he he
00:41:30
makes a [ __ ] into a very tasty [ __ ]
00:41:33
sandwich sometimes. Um, and and
00:41:36
spending, you know, you're just going to
00:41:37
get what you get with this guy. He's
00:41:39
going to always advantage himself. Um,
00:41:41
he wants to do cool things. He's going
00:41:43
to take your money to pay for it. And
00:41:46
the these numbers are insane, but
00:41:48
they'll probably go up. So, we don't we
00:41:50
can't say don't invest, but the fact of
00:41:52
the matter is they're they're you know,
00:41:55
are there going to be a million robots
00:41:56
in their homes? You can. And you can, by
00:41:58
the way, there's a million movies of him
00:41:59
talking about uh full self-driving. And
00:42:02
I didn't even get into this here, but it
00:42:04
didn't happen. Like, everything he said
00:42:06
was going to happen didn't happen. But
00:42:08
he's really good at raising money. He's
00:42:11
really good at innovating certain
00:42:13
things, but then he moves on. And so I
00:42:15
think you just have to go with
00:42:18
and then he has a Starlink in the middle
00:42:20
of it. And so that's that's what you get
00:42:22
with this guy. Um the question is is it
00:42:24
rabbits and and silliness or is it the
00:42:27
real thing? It and does it hardly matter
00:42:29
given the spheres go up?
00:42:31
>> See this is a problem. When you control
00:42:33
a board and you have made all the board
00:42:35
members a lot of money, you end up doing
00:42:37
deals that have no fiduciary oversight.
00:42:39
So in this instance, and this [ __ ] is
00:42:40
boring, but no one pays attention to
00:42:43
this stuff. A it was a share for share
00:42:46
deal when when SpaceX acquired XAI. And
00:42:50
they valued XAI at 76 bucks and SpaceX
00:42:53
at 527.
00:42:55
If SpaceX had a board that could push
00:42:57
back, they would say, "No, XAI is not
00:43:00
worth in any way um 270
00:43:06
billion, which is the value they're
00:43:07
putting on Twitter with an AI veneer.
00:43:10
No, it's not worth that. So, we're not
00:43:12
taking that dilution." But because Elon
00:43:14
owns equally large amounts in each, he
00:43:17
doesn't care.
00:43:18
>> He doesn't care. That's why he's going
00:43:20
to have control, right? But meanwhile,
00:43:22
SpaceX shareholders, in my view, are
00:43:23
getting [ __ ] to try and bail out XAI
00:43:27
>> and Twitter before that
00:43:28
>> and Twitter and Tesla at some point
00:43:30
>> and is bailing out Twitter shareholders
00:43:32
who he promised back me in this
00:43:35
ridiculous overpay of $44 billion and I
00:43:38
will figure out a way to get you your
00:43:40
money back. But the problem is there's
00:43:42
no one who has who can be a real
00:43:44
fiduciary here and stand up for the
00:43:45
shareholders they're supposed to
00:43:46
represent because Musk is in charge. see
00:43:49
above two class two class shareholder
00:43:51
company.
00:43:51
>> Agree. No, I think you've got it just
00:43:53
right. And you know what? I hope he gets
00:43:54
a million robots. I've heard his robotic
00:43:56
stuff is revolutionary. But like just
00:43:59
land it. Land the [ __ ] plane. So, as
00:44:01
they say, but you know, it doesn't
00:44:02
matter. These shares are going to jump.
00:44:04
They're just he has this incredible
00:44:06
ability to do so. He's the Steve Jobs
00:44:08
used to supposedly have this reality
00:44:10
distortion field except they actually
00:44:12
delivered real company products. Um I
00:44:15
think he's got a reality distortion
00:44:16
field. Sometimes things happen,
00:44:18
sometimes they don't. All right, we're
00:44:19
going to go on a quick break. When we
00:44:20
come back, we'll do a quick roundup of
00:44:22
the rest of this week's news. There's so
00:44:24
much news.
00:44:25
>> Support for the show comes from
00:44:26
Anthropic. Not every question has an
00:44:28
easy answer. And when you're looking
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That's cloud.ai/pivot.
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And check out CloudPro, which includes
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00:46:29
Scott, we're back. Now, let's end with a
00:46:31
news rundown of other stories I'd like
00:46:33
to hit quickly. First, Health Secretary
00:46:35
RFK Jr. made quite an impression as
00:46:37
usual this week, testifying before
00:46:39
Congress, besides heavy breathing on the
00:46:41
microphone, which was disturbing. Let's
00:46:43
hear a clip of him defending Trump math
00:46:44
while Senator Elizabeth Warren tries to
00:46:46
ask a question.
00:46:48
>> There's two ways of calculating
00:46:49
percentage. If you have a $600 drug and
00:46:52
you reduce it to 10, that's a 600%
00:46:54
reduction.
00:46:55
>> He just kept going on the math.
00:46:57
Elizabeth Warren wasn't having any of
00:46:58
it. Meanwhile, a report showing the
00:47:00
efficacy of CO 19 vaccines has been
00:47:03
blocked from being published in the CDC
00:47:05
and preventions scientific journal. It's
00:47:07
the second time they're doing trying to
00:47:09
pretend these vaccines didn't work. Um,
00:47:12
thoughts very quickly.
00:47:13
>> I think HEGs is doing more damage to
00:47:16
people outside of the US than any person
00:47:18
in re recent history. And I think RFK
00:47:20
Jr. is going to do more cause more
00:47:22
death, disease, and disability amongst
00:47:24
Americans than any person in recent
00:47:26
history. And President Trump has to take
00:47:28
credit for that, but when you listen to
00:47:30
the guy talk, he just he absolutely has
00:47:33
no qual. If there's one I mean, you just
00:47:36
did you're doing a show on this. If
00:47:38
there's one place you need to defer to
00:47:40
the experts and folks, expertise is an
00:47:43
actual thing, it's around health. And
00:47:46
they have clearly decided, all right,
00:47:48
this guy is a [ __ ] luth cannon
00:47:49
talking about raccoons genitalia. And
00:47:52
they have basically said, keep this guy
00:47:54
out of the news. What's interesting is
00:47:56
that if he had ovaries, they would have
00:47:58
fired him by now. I mean, they seem to
00:48:00
be quick to fire women.
00:48:01
>> Women. So, the dirty mouth lady left the
00:48:04
labor department.
00:48:04
>> I mean, what the three people now that
00:48:07
have been let go, all women. Anyway,
00:48:08
>> there was one guy failing who's fighting
00:48:11
with Hegath, but go ahead.
00:48:12
>> The Navy Secretary.
00:48:13
>> Yeah.
00:48:14
>> Yeah. So, look, he I I think RFK Jr. is
00:48:18
I and I this word's overused. RFK Jr. is
00:48:20
dangerous,
00:48:21
>> murderous,
00:48:21
>> and no one loves, you know, no one loves
00:48:24
RFK Jr. more than measles. And we're
00:48:27
about to see, in my opinion, we've
00:48:28
already seen it, a potential comeback of
00:48:31
some of the most devastating diseases
00:48:32
which we had eradicated because of just
00:48:35
junk science head up your ass um beliefs
00:48:39
and conspiracy theories. The fact that
00:48:41
this guy has been charged with the
00:48:42
health of America and oversees the CDC
00:48:46
is going to set us back
00:48:49
years if not decades.
00:48:50
>> Decades, decades. And also, he's just
00:48:52
such a suckup to Trump. Except, let me
00:48:54
just tell you, he's running for
00:48:55
president, too. By the way,
00:48:56
>> he's running for they all wake up in the
00:48:57
morning is. And those ma maha people
00:49:00
will stick with him.
00:49:01
>> They all wake up in the morning, look in
00:49:02
the mirror, and say, "Hello, madame or
00:49:04
Mr. President." All of these people
00:49:06
cannot be our president. like, oh god,
00:49:08
if I had to pick, I I don't know what I
00:49:10
would do. And I'm not going to have to
00:49:12
pick. I won't pick any of them. Um, very
00:49:14
quickly, cryptobillionaire Justin Sun
00:49:16
has sued the Trump family's crypto
00:49:18
venture, accusing criminal extortion for
00:49:19
freezing digital tokens over his refusal
00:49:22
to invest more money with the company
00:49:24
over at True Social. Devon Nunes has
00:49:26
departed as the company CEO after four
00:49:28
years in the role where they made, I
00:49:29
don't know, $5 million a year and one
00:49:31
year he was paid $46 million. He's an
00:49:34
incompetent [ __ ] Thoughts on that?
00:49:36
Just what a surprise, Justin son. You
00:49:38
tried to pay to get out of an SEC thing
00:49:40
and they [ __ ] you. What a surprise.
00:49:42
Mobsters are going to mob. I don't know
00:49:44
what else to say. And the Witoffs are
00:49:45
involved somewhere in here. It's one of
00:49:48
the children.
00:49:48
>> It goes to the notion of reckoning. I
00:49:50
think it should be done to the letter of
00:49:51
the law, but I I think right now uh the
00:49:56
many of the people running for president
00:49:57
or just many of our our fine people
00:49:59
serving in government in the Congress
00:50:01
should be outlining and putting out
00:50:03
plans to work with to coordinate with
00:50:05
states. AG that that somewhere has to be
00:50:09
a crime and I think we have to start
00:50:11
signaling we are going to pursue these
00:50:13
crimes and the statute of limitations I
00:50:15
believe on the imalments whatever it is
00:50:19
this is probably this is probably I bet
00:50:23
there's some very serious crimes this
00:50:24
could potentially under defense threats
00:50:28
so but the fact that I went to an event
00:50:31
where Steven Wickoff I spoke right after
00:50:33
him I just can't get over and the vice
00:50:36
president, vice president Gore was
00:50:38
there. I'm like, this guy is engaging in
00:50:41
naked criminality.
00:50:43
And so, and by the way, I don't think it
00:50:45
should be political retribution. I think
00:50:47
we also should go after some Democrats
00:50:49
specifically around insider trading.
00:50:51
>> Well, let me get to that. For the
00:50:52
prediction market news, Kelsey has fined
00:50:54
and suspended three congressional
00:50:56
candidates, uh, not both Democrats and
00:50:58
Republicans, uh, for betting on their
00:51:00
own races. That's not allowed over there
00:51:02
at Kelchi. uh thoughts. They're they're
00:51:05
that all these rules have to go in
00:51:07
place. A lot of companies are doing them
00:51:08
now. Um do not be do not be betting on
00:51:11
stuff like this. It is insider trading.
00:51:13
I'm glad Kelsey called it out as that.
00:51:15
>> It was a brilliant move on Kh's part. I
00:51:18
mean, okay, so there's good and really
00:51:19
bad here. The good is that Kali has
00:51:22
said, and this will cost them. The
00:51:24
politicians will come out against them.
00:51:26
They said you're not allowed to do this.
00:51:27
We're finding you. That's the good part.
00:51:29
Good for them. smart move politically,
00:51:31
strategically for uh Tar, the CEO of
00:51:34
Kelshi. This is what's wrong with it. We
00:51:38
shouldn't need companies to regulate
00:51:39
themselves. We the fact that, you know,
00:51:43
the marketplace hates a void. It hates a
00:51:46
vacuum. There's so little regulation
00:51:49
that the company itself
00:51:51
is finding people. It's like it if what
00:51:55
if what if all of a sudden Chevron said,
00:51:58
"Okay, you're manufacturing our oil and
00:52:01
putting too much carbon into the air
00:52:02
because we are so [ __ ] freaked out
00:52:04
about the lack of an an EPA." That's
00:52:07
where we are right now. The only
00:52:08
regulation that's come down the pike in
00:52:11
this stuff has usually been regulation
00:52:12
to stop regulation. And so when
00:52:15
companies feel everybody hopes that a
00:52:16
company's going to weigh in and regulate
00:52:18
themselves, that is not the way to run
00:52:20
industry or a country.
00:52:21
>> Not at all. And they are they are in
00:52:23
some cases. A lot several companies have
00:52:25
put in rules about this.
00:52:26
>> But it's insider trading is all we it's
00:52:29
insider.
00:52:29
>> But the fact that just gives you a sense
00:52:31
for the fact there's no sheriff here.
00:52:33
It's basically this is to a certain
00:52:35
extent it's kind of like vigilanteism
00:52:37
that because there's no sheriff around.
00:52:40
We have to enforce the law. So good on
00:52:43
Khi, but it's a it's a terrible
00:52:45
indictment on our lack of regulatory
00:52:47
infrastructure.
00:52:48
>> Agreed. One of them said he was doing it
00:52:49
for a reason to show how bad it was.
00:52:51
Give me a break. Anyway, uh, one more
00:52:54
quick break. We'll be back for
00:52:56
predictions.
00:52:58
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00:55:03
Okay, Scott, we're going to do some
00:55:04
predictions very quickly. So people
00:55:05
know, Warner Brothers shareholders just
00:55:07
approved the deal with Paramount,
00:55:08
although it's facing a lot of regulatory
00:55:11
scrutiny. I suspect it'll get through,
00:55:12
but it's going to be a lot bumpier. And
00:55:15
um so that's going to be an interesting
00:55:16
thing. There's a lot of push back from
00:55:18
Hollywood, all kinds of regulators. Um
00:55:21
so even if it's just reach this step, um
00:55:24
I got my thing in the mail. I own some
00:55:25
Warner shares. Um, thanks for the money,
00:55:28
David. Uh, uh, it's, uh, we'll see where
00:55:32
it goes. I I don't know. There might it
00:55:33
might be a little rockier than than
00:55:36
people think, but they'll probably shove
00:55:37
it through because they've only got a
00:55:39
few months to before Trump loses a lot
00:55:41
of power. Your your prediction?
00:55:43
>> By the way, it's right now on the
00:55:46
prediction markets, it's saying that the
00:55:48
likelihood it closes is around 72%,
00:55:50
which is less than I thought.
00:55:52
>> Yeah.
00:55:52
>> They're saying there's a real there's
00:55:54
like a one in three chance it doesn't
00:55:55
close. Yeah, there's some rockiness
00:55:56
there. Anyway, go ahead.
00:55:58
>> My prediction is that when the SpaceX
00:56:00
value when the SpaceX IPO goes out,
00:56:03
>> you will see an almost not an equivalent
00:56:06
but a proportionate decline in the value
00:56:08
of Tesla
00:56:10
>> because right now investors are paying
00:56:12
for that Elon premium and that is an
00:56:14
inflated multiple in exchange for Musk
00:56:17
charisma and vision. And right now
00:56:19
Tesla's Ford P is 185. That's 12 times
00:56:22
higher than the auto industry. And
00:56:24
basically they're they're paying 12
00:56:26
times what anyone else is garnering in
00:56:27
the auto industry for a car company that
00:56:29
has posted sales declines for two years
00:56:32
in a row. And abroad BYYD has surpassed
00:56:35
Tesla as the largest seller of EVs and
00:56:38
eating away its European share. In
00:56:40
addition,
00:56:40
>> new battery technology they're doing in
00:56:42
China right now that looks really
00:56:43
promising. Go ahead.
00:56:44
>> In addition, robo taxi and Optimus are
00:56:46
longshot bets that may not pay off for 5
00:56:48
years if at all. So essentially all of a
00:56:51
sudden retail investors are going to
00:56:53
have an opportunity to buy into some of
00:56:54
that Elon vision and magic but with
00:56:56
SpaceX. And so I think that magic
00:56:59
acolyte worship of that creates that 185
00:57:03
times earnings of Tesla is going to
00:57:05
massively deflate because I think all of
00:57:07
that idolatry revenue is going to go
00:57:08
into SpaceX.
00:57:10
>> Oh, that's interesting. So boom.
00:57:12
>> So what you'll see is
00:57:13
>> what if he merges it in?
00:57:16
>> Boom.
00:57:18
They need robots at their data centers
00:57:19
in space.
00:57:20
>> You've predicted that for a while.
00:57:22
>> I I was right about the last one.
00:57:24
>> Yeah, you predict. Well, okay, that's a
00:57:26
whole different ballgame. But if there's
00:57:27
assuming they maintain distinct capital
00:57:30
structures, you're going to basically
00:57:32
see just a massive transfer of market
00:57:34
cap from Tesla to SpaceX.
00:57:37
>> The the stuffing gets knocked out of
00:57:38
Tesla. They're not going to make the
00:57:40
robots that are going to run the data
00:57:41
centers in space.
00:57:42
>> I look, I think industrial
00:57:44
industrialized robots are incredibly
00:57:46
exciting. I I think the notion that
00:57:47
you're going to have a robot in your
00:57:48
house bringing you your soup or
00:57:50
whatever. I just don't I don't I don't
00:57:52
see that.
00:57:52
>> I'm gonna have that for you when you're
00:57:54
old in case you're
00:57:54
>> I've already got a Filipino man named
00:57:56
Manny with well moisturized hands lined
00:57:58
up.
00:57:59
>> No, you're getting a robot named
00:58:01
Barbara.
00:58:02
>> You're going to push me around. You're
00:58:03
going to have trouble sitting over the
00:58:04
back of my wheelchair
00:58:06
>> and I'll tell you dirty jokes and you'll
00:58:07
tell me to show
00:58:08
>> hitting you on the head like I can't
00:58:09
believe you said that back in 2014.
00:58:13
>> We're late for our podcast.
00:58:16
They they won a webbby 40 years ago.
00:58:18
>> Yeah, that's true. We won.
00:58:19
>> We didn't talk about the Webbies.
00:58:20
>> Oh my god. We won a Web We won. We won
00:58:22
both web. Both all of us. And also Lost
00:58:24
Boys got one, right? Is that correct?
00:58:27
>> So you won for On with Cara Swisser and
00:58:30
>> Interview.
00:58:31
>> And Pivot won its third year in a row
00:58:33
for best business podcast.
00:58:35
>> And my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice,
00:58:38
won for best business newsletter. And
00:58:39
>> it's a great business newsletter.
00:58:41
>> Thank you. and Lost Boys won for best
00:58:44
special series co-hosted with uh the
00:58:46
Mooch.
00:58:48
Five Webbby wins between the two of us.
00:58:50
Cara,
00:58:51
>> anyway, uh we appreciate that. We like
00:58:53
the Webbies. We have fun with them.
00:58:54
Anyway, that's a fun show. We want to
00:58:56
hear from you. Send us your questions
00:58:57
about business tech or whatever's on
00:58:59
your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot
00:59:01
to submit a question for the show or
00:59:02
call 8551
00:59:04
pivot. Okay, that's the show. Very good
00:59:06
show, Scott. That was a very good
00:59:07
discussion. I appreciate it.
00:59:08
>> I think I where I came across as
00:59:09
defensive.
00:59:10
>> No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You
00:59:11
didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't.
00:59:13
No, it was called a discussion. Anyway,
00:59:15
>> when will I be enough? Cara,
00:59:17
>> never. Thanks for listening to Pivot and
00:59:20
be sure to like and subscribe to our
00:59:22
YouTube channel. We'll be back next
00:59:24
week.
