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The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot

April 24, 2026 / 59:37

This episode discusses Tucker Carlson's recent apology for supporting Donald Trump, the implications of his comments, and the concept of redemption in politics. The conversation features insights on figures like Ben Shapiro and Marjorie Taylor Greene, exploring their controversial statements and public perceptions.

Scott and Cara analyze Tucker Carlson's regret expressed on his show, where he acknowledges his role in Trump's rise. They consider whether Carlson's apology is genuine or a strategic move as he eyes a potential presidential run in 2028.

The discussion shifts to the broader theme of forgiveness in politics, questioning how society should respond to public figures who seek redemption after making harmful statements. Scott and Cara debate the responsibilities of media figures and the public's reaction to their past actions.

They also touch on the upcoming transition at Apple with Tim Cook stepping down and John Turnis taking over as CEO, reflecting on Cook's legacy and the challenges ahead for Turnis.

The episode concludes with a news roundup, including updates on SpaceX's IPO and the implications for Tesla, as well as a brief discussion on RFK Jr.'s controversial statements and their potential impact on public health.

TL;DR

Tucker Carlson apologizes for supporting Trump, sparking discussions on redemption and political responsibility while analyzing Tim Cook's legacy at Apple.

Episode

59:37
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See, we've had a good discussion about
00:00:01
this. We're still getting dragged online
00:00:03
and I get dragged with him. Thanks,
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Scott.
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Let's get to the news. Uh, first, Tucker
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Carlson, one of Trump's biggest
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supporters over the last few years, now
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says he regrets helping uh get Trump
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elected. He offered an apology on the
00:00:22
latest episode of the Tucker Carlson
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show while speaking with his uh brother
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Buckley, a former Trump speech writer.
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Uh uh Tucker and Buckley. Oh my
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goodness. Let's uh let's uh listen.
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>> You wrote speeches for him. I campaigned
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for him. I mean, we're implicated in
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this for sure.
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>> Yes.
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>> It's not enough to say, "Well, I changed
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my mind." Or like, "Oh, this is bad. I'm
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out." It's like in very small ways, but
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in real ways, you and me and millions of
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people like us are the reason this is
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happening right now.
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>> Yes. So, I do think it's like a moment
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to wrestle with our own consciences.
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Uh, you know, we'll be tormented by it
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for a long time. I will be. And and I
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want to say I'm sorry for misleading
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people in it was not intentional. That's
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all I'll say.
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>> So, Tucker might be tormented. Is he
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trying to pull a Joe Rogan? He's going
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back to Trump to to when he needs
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something. I mean, he's done this before
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in those emails during that tri the the
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um the the uh the trial that Fox had and
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lost. Uh he would call them demonic. He
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was he's been here and I don't think
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Trump has been anything but explicit
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about what he is for a very long time.
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So I'd love to talk about this and the
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idea of redemption like that Rogan was
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trying to do it and of course the minute
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he gave him his psychedelics he shows
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right up and how and Green is one you
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know you got a lot of push back for for
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your Ben Shapiro comments this week this
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week I
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>> not my comments my interview
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>> your interview excuse me but also what
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you said about him and stuff so these
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people seem to be moving this way in a
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way that's is it real is it not
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How much should we hold people
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responsible for the things they've said
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previously? Green has been terrible. Ben
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has been many things are not the stuff,
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especially around trans and people of
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color has been repugnant to me at least.
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Um, gay people.
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>> But you would put Ben and Tucker in the
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same category.
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>> I put them I put them all in a different
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way because I think a lot of what Ben
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has said previously is really if I read
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it I mean I can read it to you if you'd
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like. I want to talk about the bigger
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idea of giving people space. They are
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obviously Tucker is and Rogan is and
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Theo Vaughn is and Marjorie Taylor Green
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are trying even Megan Kelly on this sort
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of redemption tour in a weird way. And I
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don't I not necessarily believe it, but
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I want to talk about this issue of when
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you let people say I made a mistake a
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couple years ago when I said this
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heinous thing. Forgive me. That which is
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what Tucker's asking for here.
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Look, this is sort of do as I say, not
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as I do because I think the right thing
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is be careful shaming people for saying
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they were wrong and coming back into the
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fold, you know, because that's how we
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that's how we maintain our virtue and
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indignance and elected elect JD Vance. I
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think we just need to be a little bit
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more when people say I [ __ ] up and
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this guy is bad, fine, welcome them. I I
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that's the smart thing to do. I have a
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difficult time resisting calling, you
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know, telling Marjorie Taylor Green or a
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difficult time not telling her to sit
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down when all of a sudden, you know,
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when it no longer matters and she
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doesn't get his support or endorsement
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to run for Senate, she's all of a sudden
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decided that he's bad. For me, when I
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saw those comments from Tucker,
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I it seemed to me to be I thought I I
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think I absolutely know what's going on
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here.
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>> Mhm.
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>> He's running for president, Cara.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. And do you realize what an
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enormous lane there is for somebody who
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has very conservative values, an
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enormous media platform, an enormous
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army of acolytes that he could weaponize
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right away, and by the way is anti-Trump
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and anti- the war in Iran, which a huge
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swath of Republicans are now. Who
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occupies that lane right now? And I
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disagree with Kowi on this. I think here
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and now
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Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP
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nominee for president in 2028. Put him
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on stage with Rubio and Vance, he's
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going to slice and dice them. So, we do
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I believe as Democrats and I realize I
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bring some bias to the table. I think he
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could go six, seven people deep. I think
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you know the the eighth mo most likely
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person to get the nomination like a
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senator Clolobashar or uh an Osaf they
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are 10 times better than the person
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leading in the prediction platforms for
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the Republican party JD Vance we are we
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have a deep bench as deep as our bench
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is theirs is that shallow
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JD Vance I mean he makes
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Jesus Christ he makes goals likable I
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mean, the guy the guy is unattractive.
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They're going to have a field day taking
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all of his statements and his gymnastics
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and his hipp hypocrisy
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and his weirdness. Whether it's saying
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that the pope should be more careful
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speaking to notions of of of religion. I
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mean, he's said so many ridiculous
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things that they're going to have a
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field day with. Yes, he shifted rather a
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lot.
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>> And then they'll connect them and they
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haven't even started connecting him to
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Teal and that [ __ ] weirdness.
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>> Well, do do but the shiftingness of this
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Tucker thing for example? I mean I
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didn't he know or why did he suddenly
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know or was it just because it's Israel
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and um uh and this Iran war? What what
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what is it? It's like how do you
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>> It's calculated. It's strategy. in this
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case is calculated because I think he's
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already said this privately and it got
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out in those legal filings and
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>> he's always he's always hated Trump. I
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think anyone I think Tucker's a smart
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guy. I think anyone who's intelligent
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>> and whatever you say about Tucker I I
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don't know he he's an intelligent
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impressive media figure. He is very good
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at what he does and he could not stand
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Trump and then saw that his audience was
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going there and that's the way he was
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going to make money was to be just
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blindly supportive of Trump. Now he sees
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an opening.
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He's the he's the leading candidate for
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president.
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>> The heinous things he said like there a
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lot of look greenhouse.
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>> He's trying to recast himself. He's
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apologized and now he has two years to
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take on an anti-Trump
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uh Republican. He has two years to
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basically carve out and cement a lane of
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I am anti-Trump. I'm an anti-Trump
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conservative that was anti-war that
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neither Vance nor Rubio can carve out.
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He's he's very well positioned,
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>> right? But then how do you I want to
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talk about the bigger picture of
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escaping this like the Marjorie Taylor
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Greens and and Shapiro was doing that
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and and you know we've gotten some a lot
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of I get your flag too. Um
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>> bring it on.
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>> Okay. Explain because you said let me
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just push back at you if you don't mind.
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Um you said you appreciate his moral
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clarity and reasoning. I'm going to take
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issue. I think he's very smart. There's
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no question. I'm going to take some
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issue and I sometimes agree with some of
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the things he says, not a lot of them,
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but some of them. Okay. Um, he also took
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a shot at me that was inaccurate and put
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it in the commercial.
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>> That's right. On my podcast.
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>> Oh, no. You said on your podcast,
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>> he took a shot at you.
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>> No, no, no. Before previously, he's he
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he did call to apologize to me about it,
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which I appreciated. But that said, the
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moral clarity thing, I mean, I I I would
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have trouble h how do you escape things
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like, let me just tell you a couple of
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things he said, which sort of is why I
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found it a little bit disturbing. Um, he
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called transgenderism a mental disorder.
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He argues that homosexuality should
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remain in the DSM as a mental illness.
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He's called women who have abortions
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baby killers. He's um he said a man and
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a woman do a better job of raising a
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child than two men or women. That's not
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even getting into some of the the
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comments he makes about Arabs. He said
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this was a long time ago and he walked
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back those comments as being dumb when
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he said Israelis like to build Arabs
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like to bomb and live in open sewage
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which I didn't think was something one
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should say and any number of men and
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women things. But and then Green
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herself, let me move on to Green, you
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know, is saying a lot of incredible
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things. That said, she another person
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who attacks trans and gay people uh says
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every now and then drops what I consider
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to be very anti-Semitic tropes very
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quickly once she gets past I don't like
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war. It she shifts she she mix she she
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she she says Jewish when she means
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Israel quite a bit. And so you kind of
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see the play there. I I do want to like
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how do you I couldn't I don't think I
00:09:04
could talk to to Ben Shapiro because of
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a lot of the things unless in some way
00:09:09
how talk about this whether our country
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and I just talked to a Hearnden about
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this is that most regular people do
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forgive people or they say oh he didn't
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mean it and Tucker's trying to do the
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same thing Joe Rogan's trying to do the
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same thing
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>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do the same
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>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do yes he's
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shifting the other way which I I also
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have written him and said I find like
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what are you doing here? Um and and I we
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can disagree with each other, but how
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how easy it is is it to let people back
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in and what should be the um
00:09:42
I guess what should be the criteria? I
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guess there'll be different criteria for
00:09:45
each person.
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>> Look, I at a very spiritual level, the
00:09:51
question around letting people back in
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is forgiveness is divine and
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you know, you want to heir on the side
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of forgiveness. Having said that, I
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think the more salient question is who
00:10:01
do you decide to platform or not? So,
00:10:04
I've had a lot of people from quote
00:10:06
unquote the manosphere contact me
00:10:07
directly and say, "You have
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misrepresented me. You are part of the
00:10:11
manosphere, but you're manosphere light.
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We could have a productive conversation.
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I'm coming on." And I'm like, to be
00:10:15
blunt, I think what you have said is so
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unproductive and so damaging for young
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men that I don't want to give you any
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oxygen. I don't even want to get in your
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face. I don't want to have an argument.
00:10:25
I don't I don't use the most famous
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misogynist. I don't use his name because
00:10:30
I don't want to give them oxygen. So the
00:10:31
question is, do you give a guy like Ben?
00:10:34
>> Which one is it? Go ahead.
00:10:35
>> Well, you can probably guess anyways.
00:10:37
>> Andrew Tight.
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>> Well, someone who's been jailed for
00:10:41
accusations of of trafficking women.
00:10:44
>> I will use this.
00:10:44
>> I mean, okay. So, but I don't He likes
00:10:48
it. Every time his name is used, the
00:10:50
algorithms elevate his contact content
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and other platforms. Yeah, he's number
00:10:53
one on Substack right now.
00:10:54
>> And the reality is if you talk to young
00:10:56
men, most young men have written him off
00:10:58
a long time ago, but I think because we
00:11:01
he's such an easy punching bag. We
00:11:03
mention his name and the algorithms pick
00:11:05
it up and elevate his content. Anyways,
00:11:07
and a lot of young people will be drawn,
00:11:10
especially young men, to people who are
00:11:11
controversial figures. So my feeling is
00:11:14
there's certain people you just choke
00:11:15
off their oxygen supply. So the question
00:11:17
is with someone like Ben, he has said in
00:11:20
my opinion wrong, even maybe vile
00:11:24
things. I said to him, I said in my post
00:11:26
comments after my interview with him,
00:11:28
the thing that really bothers me about
00:11:30
Ben is that he has courageously called
00:11:34
out these far-right people and said,
00:11:36
"We're we can't engage in this
00:11:38
conspiracy theory, this hatemongering."
00:11:41
He said that to that group. I thought
00:11:43
that was fairly courageous of him to
00:11:45
call out those people. My issue or one
00:11:47
of my issues with Ben is that when they
00:11:50
were these people were conspiracy
00:11:52
theorists accusing world leaders, first
00:11:54
ladies of having penises or accusing
00:11:57
people of, you know, just very heinous
00:11:59
things, some of the transgender stuff,
00:12:01
he sort of was a bit of an apologist,
00:12:03
but then when they went against Israel,
00:12:05
that was the the red line for him. And
00:12:08
so I'm like, okay, basically Ben has
00:12:11
decided to excommunicate and call out
00:12:13
people on the far right, not when
00:12:15
they're homophobes or bigots, but when
00:12:17
they become anti-semitic.
00:12:19
And I said that I think I I disagree
00:12:22
with a lot of what Ben says. This is Ben
00:12:24
Shapiro. He grew up in a lower middle
00:12:26
class home. He's so [ __ ] smart. He
00:12:28
got to Harvard. He's built a great
00:12:30
company. He is willing to acknowledge
00:12:32
points. I love just watching him debate
00:12:35
to just take notes on how I make my
00:12:38
progressive viewpoints, how I articulate
00:12:41
my progressive viewpoints in a more
00:12:42
compelling way. And also, I am done with
00:12:45
this notion of this apostate culture on
00:12:49
the left where if I don't choose the
00:12:50
right words or have the right people on
00:12:52
my podcast, people act as if I've
00:12:54
betrayed them. There are there is a
00:12:57
line. I will never have Candace Owens on
00:12:59
my podcast. I will never have Nick
00:13:01
Quentes on my podcast, but I think I
00:13:04
think Ben brings a really
00:13:08
intellectual, adept, clever arguments
00:13:11
and viewpoints to issues I don't agree
00:13:13
with him on. And I think it's a healthy
00:13:15
dialogue.
00:13:16
>> I'm not sure they're saying you
00:13:17
shouldn't have him on. I think it was
00:13:18
the moral clarity thing I think was what
00:13:21
>> Okay, I chose Okay, I chose the wrong
00:13:23
word. I get it.
00:13:24
>> He doesn't back down. He has a view and
00:13:26
then he doesn't back down. He's not
00:13:28
trying to go where the wind goes or or
00:13:29
what gets him most the most likes on
00:13:32
Instagram. I respect that. I think he
00:13:34
genuinely believes what he believes. He
00:13:36
tries to provide evidence and argument.
00:13:39
Um I'm I'm
00:13:42
I said I'm a fan of Ben Shapiro. I'm a
00:13:44
fan. You have to separate the person
00:13:46
from the politics. I think he is an
00:13:48
impressive young man who has who has
00:13:50
demonstrated incredible intellect and
00:13:53
really made an incredibly successful
00:13:55
media company. And this notion that I
00:13:58
believe when we all start barking up the
00:14:00
same tree, we get really [ __ ] stupid.
00:14:02
And I think that people on the left and
00:14:04
the right have a tendency to all want to
00:14:06
find the right words, especially people
00:14:08
on the left, and get angry at anybody
00:14:11
that wants to have a discourse.
00:14:12
>> Come on, Scott. The right has gotten so
00:14:14
sensorious, like they're the ones who
00:14:16
are actually doing the censoring. There
00:14:18
is a purity test on the right right now
00:14:20
around Trump, around everything else.
00:14:22
And pushing these people pushing back is
00:14:24
hard, I have to say. Um, despite I
00:14:28
>> I find that the far right or the right,
00:14:30
not the far right, I find the right just
00:14:32
writes me and you off. They just say
00:14:34
we're livearts.
00:14:36
>> The most hate I get is from progressives
00:14:38
who are like, "We thought we you could
00:14:40
trust
00:14:42
>> when you said Biden was too old. You
00:14:43
don't understand the assignment. We
00:14:44
thought we could trust you,
00:14:46
>> right?"
00:14:46
>> Or, "Oh, wait. Do you remember the hate
00:14:48
I got on that podcast when I said that
00:14:50
transgender women should not be allowed
00:14:51
to compete in women's sports?" Do you
00:14:53
remember that one?
00:14:54
>> Mhm. I mean, it's okay. You are you are
00:14:57
with us 100% or you're against us.
00:15:00
>> Well, that's different than having a
00:15:02
debate over a very complex issue and and
00:15:05
saying transgenderism is a mental
00:15:07
disorder or that homosexuality.
00:15:09
>> Say that.
00:15:10
>> No, he did. Ben did. Okay. So, should we
00:15:12
not ever talk to Ben because he said
00:15:14
that?
00:15:15
>> I I think we
00:15:16
>> should not ask him to defend his
00:15:17
comments.
00:15:18
>> I I think it's that's what I'm asking
00:15:19
you. It's a really difficult thing. I've
00:15:21
thought about having Marjorie Taylor
00:15:22
Green on and then I read a lot. I'm
00:15:24
like, uh, I'm going to like just cuz I
00:15:26
like what she's saying. I I don't trust
00:15:29
any of these people. I'll be hon. And I
00:15:32
just think they see the wind
00:15:34
>> and I think they have legitimate
00:15:35
problems with Trump. I do think Green,
00:15:38
for example, is an America first and
00:15:40
she's always been. I think she's very
00:15:41
committed to the Epstein issues and I
00:15:43
think she is. I don't I don't I I think
00:15:46
she's sincere in this in that. And you
00:15:48
can hear it goes way back and I go and I
00:15:50
go way back to read her. But then when
00:15:52
it's accompanied by this other stuff,
00:15:54
how do you set I think it's gonna be a
00:15:56
very hard road back for everybody.
00:15:58
>> But let me just create let me just call
00:16:00
out a distinction. I struggle with the
00:16:02
thing same thing you're struggling with.
00:16:03
You have more license I think because
00:16:04
you're a journalist and so
00:16:08
getting Marjorie Taylor Green on on with
00:16:10
Caris Swisser and talking to her and put
00:16:12
and you're you're a great interviewer.
00:16:13
You're a much better interviewer than me
00:16:15
knowing how to forcefully push back. You
00:16:17
are you are you are great at that. But
00:16:19
I'll give you an example.
00:16:20
I don't think Ben would ever stalk
00:16:23
people who came to testify in front of
00:16:25
Congress who were Parkland shooter
00:16:26
survivors and follow them for four
00:16:28
blocks accusing them of lying and being
00:16:32
crisis actors. I don't see Ben Shapiro
00:16:34
ever doing something like that. At the
00:16:36
end of the day, this is your call and
00:16:39
people can decide that. All right, if
00:16:40
you're
00:16:41
>> That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking
00:16:42
about more as our country like when do
00:16:44
we let it go? Like that's going to be
00:16:47
the reason I'm asking is I just did this
00:16:49
incredible interview with the status
00:16:51
like when does it
00:16:53
>> the statute of limitations and when
00:16:54
people
00:16:55
>> when does do all of us have to just
00:16:56
leave Trump behind us and all the bad
00:16:59
and I'm not I blame him but I blame
00:17:02
ourselves because it's really hard and
00:17:05
it's and it's and the jumping like
00:17:08
listen I got like attacked for saying
00:17:11
Reese Witherspoon was just saying try
00:17:12
AI.
00:17:13
>> That was weird. That was just stupid. It
00:17:14
was weird, but it was also but I also
00:17:17
get it like the rage about it's
00:17:19
>> the machine looking for soft tissue to
00:17:21
pretend they're virtuous. That's stupid.
00:17:23
>> You know the right virtues you virtuous
00:17:25
we all
00:17:26
>> that's everybody everybody who's angry
00:17:27
about AI there's a there's there's
00:17:30
there's different this is right
00:17:32
>> that's all I'm saying is I get where
00:17:34
it's coming from. I get where it's
00:17:35
coming from and so I discount it. And
00:17:37
sometimes you know I was talking to
00:17:38
Claire this morning about some skull was
00:17:40
was being mad about his socks or
00:17:43
something like that. And I said to her,
00:17:45
it was we were driving to school and she
00:17:46
goes, "Oh yeah, he was really mad about
00:17:47
the socks." I said, "You know, he wasn't
00:17:49
mad about the socks. He was mad cuz I've
00:17:51
been away for a few days and he wanted
00:17:53
me to drive him to school and I'm
00:17:54
driving you." And I said, "Sometimes
00:17:56
people are mad about things that have
00:17:58
nothing to do
00:17:59
>> for a six-year-old. I couldn't have that
00:18:00
conversation with my 18-year-old."
00:18:02
>> And it was an interesting conversation.
00:18:04
>> You bring up Freud or Yungian
00:18:05
resentment.
00:18:06
>> No, I just used Claire's so smart. It's
00:18:10
crazy.
00:18:10
>> Let's watch Frozen.
00:18:12
>> Watch Frozen. Frozen, too. But it's just
00:18:14
I think we should be talking like what
00:18:16
is what do we have to do to get back to
00:18:19
some level of disagreement? And I do
00:18:22
think I I there's no question that the
00:18:24
Greens, the Shapiro, the Owens, the Meg
00:18:28
uh Megan Kelly uh and definitely people
00:18:31
on the left too, who I don't listen to
00:18:33
as much, which is interesting, have
00:18:35
tried to like poke at us and make us
00:18:38
really dislike each other in a way that
00:18:40
I think has been very dangerous. And at
00:18:43
some point there has to be some level of
00:18:45
reckoning over that because
00:18:47
>> the right word,
00:18:48
>> you know, it's a reckoning. And what is
00:18:50
that reckoning is really important.
00:18:52
>> Well, three points. There's some nuance
00:18:54
here. I would not group all of those
00:18:55
people into the same group. I think
00:18:57
there's different levels of
00:18:59
menaciousness and disingenuous and
00:19:01
saying hateful things for money. Um, the
00:19:05
right word. So, the first is
00:19:08
um what I'll call camera culture or
00:19:10
forgiveness. I think in a culture where
00:19:12
everyone's following each other around,
00:19:13
where everyone's tweets live forever, if
00:19:15
we don't expand the aperture of
00:19:17
forgiveness, we're just all going to
00:19:18
[ __ ] hate each other. I say stupid
00:19:20
[ __ ] all the time. I I'm putting out 14
00:19:23
[ __ ] hours a week of content. I'm
00:19:25
shooting from the hip. I If an
00:19:27
18-year-old shows up to a a a protest on
00:19:31
campus and says from the river to the
00:19:33
sea, not understanding how some people
00:19:34
perceive that, you know, I don't want to
00:19:36
kick him out of school. I don't want to
00:19:38
ruin his career. I don't want to I don't
00:19:40
want to contact JP Morgan, which some
00:19:42
people want to do, and get make sure he
00:19:43
doesn't his summer internship is
00:19:45
rescended. We have to get to a level of
00:19:48
more forgiveness in a culture where
00:19:50
there's incentive to find make a cartoon
00:19:53
of people's comments and press on the
00:19:55
soft tissue and and be outraged behind
00:19:58
our computers. I I and we have gone so
00:20:00
far from that. We need I'm trying to do
00:20:02
that. I'm trying not to call out people
00:20:04
for clicks when I see an opportunity.
00:20:06
I'm trying to take the temperature down.
00:20:08
The word you bring up though and it's
00:20:10
different is reckoning. And that is I do
00:20:13
not think this nation heals until there
00:20:16
is some form of reckoning. Marjorie
00:20:18
Taylor Green and Nancy Pelosi should
00:20:21
discourage their profits from insider
00:20:23
trading. The people who were in charge
00:20:25
or supervisors of ICE in Minneapolis
00:20:28
where an ICU nurse somehow ended up with
00:20:31
10 bullets in his person, those people
00:20:34
should be should be hauled in front of
00:20:36
committees and punished. I'm not saying
00:20:38
maybe they go to jail. When when there
00:20:40
are people in geopolitical advantage,
00:20:42
they should disorgge those profits and
00:20:44
be put on trial. There needs to be a
00:20:48
reckoning here. At the same time, with
00:20:50
respect to what people say or their
00:20:52
views or being incendiary or playing
00:20:54
into a far-left or a far-right media
00:20:56
ecosystem that then elevates it online,
00:20:59
we need to massively increase the
00:21:01
aperture around forgiveness.
00:21:03
>> Yeah, I think well, that's well said.
00:21:05
See, we've had a good discussion about
00:21:06
this. We're still getting dragged online
00:21:09
and I get
00:21:11
>> Thanks.
00:21:11
>> I think you should do the interview with
00:21:12
I would tune in for the interview with
00:21:14
Marjorie Taylor Green. I would love to
00:21:16
see what you said and how you how you
00:21:17
approach it. I think that would be
00:21:19
>> one of the reasons I would not interview
00:21:20
MTG is I don't feel like I have the
00:21:23
skills to handle that interview.
00:21:25
>> Well, yeah, it's hard because it's part
00:21:26
of me I'm like go girl and part of me is
00:21:28
like really some of the heinous things
00:21:29
you've done. Shall I? There's a point.
00:21:31
It's it's a difficult thing because you
00:21:33
know I just I'm like you very clearly
00:21:36
have issues with Jewish people like it's
00:21:38
uh you know you'd have to have an honest
00:21:40
convers you'd have to be open to an
00:21:42
honest conversation instead of just clap
00:21:44
clap clap we forgive you.
00:21:45
>> Can I give you can I give you a couple
00:21:46
real world examples? I was supposed to
00:21:48
go on Bill Maher and I found out that
00:21:51
Steve Bannon was one of the panelists.
00:21:53
you did. You removed yourself.
00:21:54
>> And I said, "Uh, this guy made what
00:21:56
looked like to me a Nazi salute."
00:21:59
And a lot of people say, "No, he didn't.
00:22:01
If I had more skills, I could handle
00:22:03
that conversation." I don't have that
00:22:05
skills, those skills. I I as a non to my
00:22:09
mother, I I feel like I would have to
00:22:11
[ __ ] say something to him on live TV.
00:22:13
I do not want to hijack Bill Mar show,
00:22:17
and I don't know how to thread that
00:22:18
needle, so I backed out. I was invited
00:22:20
to go on Steve Bartlett's podcast
00:22:22
tomorrow. I was supposed to be on with
00:22:24
Eric Schmidt on a discussion on AI. I
00:22:26
have a lot of respect for the brain of
00:22:28
Eric Schmidt. I I would learn a lot. I'm
00:22:30
like, I'm in. And they're like, Eric
00:22:31
can't do it. Can you come on in and this
00:22:33
panel with Sanker Chank? I mean, every
00:22:36
time I see that guy, he's yelling. I
00:22:38
don't want to get into a yelling match
00:22:40
with anybody.
00:22:40
>> You went on that Piers when I told you
00:22:42
not to.
00:22:43
>> Well, I didn't know he was going to he
00:22:44
was going to ambush me with some
00:22:46
farright weirdo.
00:22:48
>> Yeah. So, and by the way, I I I like
00:22:51
Pierce,
00:22:52
>> and he's been very generous to me. And I
00:22:54
called the producer and I said, "Never
00:22:55
again. Don't call me. You didn't warn me
00:22:57
that you were going to bring on some
00:22:58
right-wing weirdo to try and say to call
00:23:01
me desperate and unamerican. I don't
00:23:03
need that shit." And it wasn't a civil
00:23:05
conversation. It was you just trying to
00:23:06
get the YouTube algorithm to have a call
00:23:09
out moment such that you'd get another
00:23:11
[ __ ] $40 from AdSense. I'm not going
00:23:14
to engage in that. At the same time, I'm
00:23:16
not going to get on with I think that
00:23:18
guy is far left who every time I see him
00:23:20
is yelling. I'm like that that what good
00:23:23
does that do me? What what good does
00:23:26
that do the ecosystem or any sense of
00:23:28
civil discourse that this nation needs
00:23:30
to move toward?
00:23:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see how it goes.
00:23:34
It'll be interesting.
00:23:35
>> I'm so indignant right now.
00:23:36
>> What you
00:23:37
>> I'm so indignant right now. What do you
00:23:38
call What do you call What do you call a
00:23:41
black man on the moon?
00:23:42
>> Oh, no. Don't. Please don't. You're I'm
00:23:44
gonna have to fire you soon. What?
00:23:47
>> An astronaut. You [ __ ] racist.
00:23:48
>> Oh, I love it. That guy is amazing. He's
00:23:51
>> with his dog. That guy is amazing.
00:23:53
>> He's amazing. Like, oh, all right.
00:23:55
>> They make $150,000 a year.
00:23:57
>> One of them said I wouldn't fly with a
00:23:59
Who was the person who said I wouldn't
00:24:01
fly with a black pilot?
00:24:02
>> It was Charlie Kirk.
00:24:03
>> Was it Kirk?
00:24:04
>> He was making a point around DEI that he
00:24:05
thinks there's And by the way, Elon's
00:24:07
done it too.
00:24:08
>> Just so you know, how airlines I'm not
00:24:09
forgiving how airlines handle DEI. They
00:24:11
do widen the aperture in terms of who
00:24:13
makes it into the applicant pool, but
00:24:16
any pilot, female, male, black, white,
00:24:19
Latino, has to pass the exact same test
00:24:21
at the same level.
00:24:22
>> Ridiculous. It's [ __ ] ridiculous.
00:24:23
That those things I'm sorry. I'm not
00:24:25
going to be forgiving. Anyway, the that
00:24:26
pilot is amazing. Um, all right, we're
00:24:28
moving on. Speaking of Speaking of
00:24:30
>> I didn't mean to sound offensive
00:24:33
a lot in the last 24 hours.
00:24:34
>> I know. But you know what? It's good to
00:24:35
talk about because everyone wants me to
00:24:36
dump you.
00:24:38
>> Everyone wants you to dump me.
00:24:40
>> I'm not We're not doing it.
00:24:42
I'm just telling you today today today
00:24:44
I'm Scott did I have an effective and
00:24:48
substantive conversation about the issue
00:24:50
we talked about
00:24:52
>> just all right I'm moving on speaking of
00:24:54
people we may have to forgive Apple will
00:24:56
have a new CEO for the first time in 15
00:24:58
years come September Tim Cook is
00:25:00
stepping down as CEO and will move into
00:25:01
a new role as Apple's executive chairman
00:25:04
Trump praised uh Cook in a post on true
00:25:07
social also saying quote I was very
00:25:08
impressed with myself to have the head
00:25:09
of Apple calling willing to kiss my
00:25:11
ass," unquote. Unfortunately, this was
00:25:13
accurate. Uh John Turnis, the head of
00:25:15
Apple's hardware engineering, will
00:25:17
succeed Cook, first product person
00:25:19
running the company in a while. He's
00:25:21
been with the company for 25 years,
00:25:22
overseeing the engineering of the
00:25:24
iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Uh talk about the
00:25:27
legacy and you will have to include sort
00:25:30
of being tainted by this relationship
00:25:31
with Trump, including recently the
00:25:33
statue and the Melania thing. and Turnis
00:25:37
is joining Apple as the company is
00:25:38
fighting for a space in the AI race and
00:25:41
product innovation. Um, talk a little
00:25:43
bit about predictions for the Turnis era
00:25:45
and looking back at the Cook era. May I
00:25:48
start? I have to say he's 10x the amount
00:25:51
the value of the company. When when
00:25:53
Steve gave him the reigns and then died,
00:25:56
everyone thought it was curtains for the
00:25:58
company and that has not been the case.
00:26:00
He has been innovative with AirPods and
00:26:02
watch and not just not as sexy as as
00:26:05
Steve Jobs has been or as visionary. So
00:26:08
I think he's been a great um uh a great
00:26:11
leader for them. That said, he was
00:26:13
tarnished by some China all the China
00:26:16
manufacturing stuff for sure um because
00:26:18
he's a logistics guy. He he was maybe
00:26:20
too much of an automaton on that those
00:26:22
human rights issues. And then the
00:26:24
President Trump stuff is not a great
00:26:26
look, but I think he was taken one for
00:26:27
the team would be my guess in that
00:26:30
regard. Uh, as a person, I really like
00:26:32
him. He's he's been he's a really um
00:26:36
calm person. I think he could have been
00:26:38
slightly more outspoken about gay
00:26:41
issues, but that's his choice. Again, I
00:26:43
don't I don't force gay people have to
00:26:45
talk about it, but he's a good um role
00:26:47
model. Probably could have talked a
00:26:48
little bit more about it. That's my only
00:26:50
But that's again his choice. Um, and I
00:26:52
get why people don't want to. So, your
00:26:54
thoughts?
00:26:55
>> I think people's careers are, you know,
00:26:57
the second in the blink of a of the
00:26:59
corporate world in the universe. That
00:27:01
second 35 mm, right?
00:27:04
It no one gets all 35 mm perfect and Tim
00:27:09
Cook's running at 34 a 12. So to not,
00:27:12
this is his legacy. Tim Cook is the most
00:27:16
successful successor in corporate
00:27:18
history.
00:27:19
He talk about a guy that was set up to
00:27:21
fail by virtue of the idolatry of the
00:27:24
person who was taking over for it. They
00:27:25
were immediately second guess. His
00:27:27
record was pretty amazing. The record
00:27:29
itself, not just idol.
00:27:31
>> Yeah. It's like, okay, who inherits
00:27:32
Jesus's mand?
00:27:34
>> Yeah.
00:27:34
>> Steve Jobs was the new Jesus because we
00:27:37
had shifted from idolizing our athletes
00:27:40
and our government officials to the
00:27:42
idolatry of innovators as identified and
00:27:44
marked by Steve Jobs and then who was
00:27:46
taken from us early like Jesus. I mean
00:27:48
it was just he was he has become a
00:27:51
mythical godlike figure.
00:27:53
>> So any guy taking you want to talk about
00:27:56
the biggest shoes to fill in history and
00:27:58
what did Tim Cook do? He took the stock
00:28:01
up tfold
00:28:03
operationally. He built the most
00:28:05
probably the most robust impressive
00:28:08
supply chain in history. He figured out
00:28:10
a way in a foreign nation to take
00:28:12
advantage of the collision between
00:28:14
advanced manufacturing and low wages and
00:28:18
somehow get 2,000 parts to one place or
00:28:21
different places for assembly and build
00:28:24
a supercomput for $400 that if you tried
00:28:26
to build it anywhere else would cost
00:28:28
$4,000.
00:28:30
He figured it out. He also uh created
00:28:34
people say he wasn't a new product guy.
00:28:36
My favorite technology in history in
00:28:40
history.
00:28:40
>> Mhm.
00:28:41
>> These things.
00:28:42
>> The AirPods. You love your AirPods.
00:28:44
>> And AirPods if they were their own
00:28:45
business would be a Fortune50 company.
00:28:48
>> And it's I think of it's the most
00:28:49
successful piece of jewelry in history
00:28:51
in the highest margin.
00:28:53
>> In addition, what he decided to do was
00:28:55
to say, "Okay, I'm not going to launch
00:28:57
new products. I'm going to take existing
00:29:00
products and applications and take a
00:29:02
phone and evolve it to a supercomput
00:29:05
where you have payments, where you have
00:29:07
music.
00:29:08
>> So, an ecosystem is what you're talking
00:29:10
about creating an eos.
00:29:11
>> But he he took the iPhone from a phone
00:29:14
>> to a supercomput in your pocket that was
00:29:16
media transactions.
00:29:18
>> Yeah. Ecos
00:29:19
>> and and it became the iPhone pulled off
00:29:22
the impossible. And that is if you want
00:29:24
really high margins like Ferrari, it's a
00:29:26
niche with limited volumes. If you want
00:29:29
super high volumes like a Toyota, you
00:29:31
have to price it to get low margins. The
00:29:33
iPhone is the only product in history
00:29:35
that's managed to get the production
00:29:37
volume of a Toyota with the margins of a
00:29:39
Ferrari. The iPhone has created more
00:29:42
gross margin dollars than any product in
00:29:44
history. Arguably speaking, the iPhone
00:29:46
is the most successful product in
00:29:50
history. There's been nothing like it.
00:29:53
He did it with a lot of grace.
00:29:55
There wasn't anyone [ __ ] posting or
00:29:57
leaving or filing lawsuits. And if you
00:29:59
want to talk about Apple's ascent past,
00:30:02
say, Samsung or Android, go buy a phone,
00:30:05
an Android phone. You're you're talking
00:30:07
to a guy with a name tag named Roy who's
00:30:09
living with his parents in a bad place
00:30:11
with bad carpeting. And then you
00:30:13
>> It's still not great. I'll tell you
00:30:14
that. There's there's some beautiful
00:30:17
there's there's some beautiful form
00:30:18
factors that I like. I wish there was
00:30:20
more. No, I mean the retail the
00:30:21
distribution for Android.
00:30:22
>> Got it. Yeah.
00:30:23
>> You go into an Apple store.
00:30:25
>> Mhm.
00:30:25
>> If they opened a coffee store, it
00:30:27
probably be if they opened a coffee
00:30:28
counter in the Apple store, it' probably
00:30:29
be the highest grossing retail in the
00:30:32
world. And by the way, it became the
00:30:34
highest grossing per square foot retail
00:30:35
besting Tiffany in the early odds.
00:30:38
>> Let me ask you his negatives. What would
00:30:40
you say? I would definitely think the
00:30:42
the controversies around China
00:30:44
certainly, but that they seem in the
00:30:46
rearview mirror. What about the Trump
00:30:47
relationship? the China one. Look, he he
00:30:51
had to take a huge risk on a company
00:30:53
that we had geopolitical tensions with.
00:30:55
He couldn't look into a crystal ball.
00:30:56
And quite frankly, it looks as if we've
00:30:58
it looks as if we've survived it. And I
00:31:00
would argue I would argue that China and
00:31:03
the US have a vested interest in
00:31:05
figuring out a way to get along because
00:31:07
Apple is so important to China and China
00:31:09
is so important to this US company
00:31:11
called Apple. I think cross commerce, I
00:31:14
forget the German word for it, is firms
00:31:16
that trade trade with each other are
00:31:18
just less likely to go to war with each
00:31:20
other. So I I I am a huge fan of what he
00:31:23
has pulled off in China. The Trump
00:31:24
stuff, we were very vocal about it. It
00:31:27
pissed me off. I think Tim Cook, there
00:31:30
are few people who have benefited more
00:31:31
from the American system and civil
00:31:33
rights and gay rights and rule of law
00:31:36
and systemic laws around business and a
00:31:38
lack of favoritism and a lack of tariffs
00:31:40
than Tim Cook. And yet he, you're right,
00:31:43
he played the game. His priority was
00:31:45
shareholders, so he was strategic and
00:31:47
kissed the guy's ass. I get it. It would
00:31:49
have been nice if he had been a little
00:31:51
bit more forceful and pushed back, but
00:31:53
the reality is neither did the other 499
00:31:56
S&P 500 CEOs. So quite frankly, I think
00:31:58
he gets a
00:32:00
>> You don't see Nadella there. You don't
00:32:02
see like
00:32:03
>> Nadella went to the meeting. He
00:32:05
>> he went to the meeting, but I'm talking
00:32:06
about the like
00:32:08
>> he didn't go to the Melania premiere.
00:32:09
>> He didn't. and he didn't do the bring
00:32:11
him a present and just it was I thought
00:32:13
it was tainting of his long very decent
00:32:16
tenure and I don't think it I think I
00:32:18
know I have a feeling I know why he did
00:32:19
it. He's like, "It had to be done
00:32:21
essentially. I have to kiss up to him."
00:32:24
And then of course, Trump returned the
00:32:25
favor by saying, "He kissed my ass."
00:32:27
Which is just like typical.
00:32:28
>> Well, this is the question I would ask.
00:32:30
>> Yeah.
00:32:30
>> Of all the CEOs on a balanced scorecard
00:32:34
>> of having a good team, fostering
00:32:35
leadership, of of showing grace, not
00:32:39
posting other people. Who scores higher
00:32:41
than Tim Cook in the history of
00:32:42
business?
00:32:43
>> Cook or or Nadella? I would say Cook or
00:32:45
I think Navel really pulled the company
00:32:46
together.
00:32:47
>> So, we got a 99 point. He got 1590 on
00:32:50
the SAT. He did. He got one question
00:32:51
wrong. I mean,
00:32:52
>> okay, I got it. I'm just asking the
00:32:54
question. I would agree with you.
00:32:56
>> This guy is a first ballot hall of fame
00:33:00
>> 100% and American citizen
00:33:02
>> 100%. And when when people leave the
00:33:05
stage, everyone should just be
00:33:07
>> He's also leaving at the right time, by
00:33:08
the way.
00:33:09
>> Yeah. He's stepping down. He's not
00:33:10
clinging to power like an African
00:33:12
dictator.
00:33:13
>> So, um, Turnis, very quickly,
00:33:15
predictions for the Turnis era. Again,
00:33:19
talk about big shoes to fall. The the
00:33:21
only um you know him better than I do.
00:33:23
The only thing I find fascinating about
00:33:24
this guy is that he tinkers with like
00:33:27
go-karts and he's a hardware guy. So, it
00:33:29
says more about the board. They said
00:33:31
we're about hardware. We're not about
00:33:33
services and this is about trying to
00:33:35
innovate about products. You know him
00:33:36
better than I do.
00:33:37
>> I don't know him. I've met him a couple.
00:33:39
He wasn't he didn't stick out compared
00:33:40
to some of the others there that were in
00:33:42
the contention. But I do think he's
00:33:45
having a product person is really
00:33:46
important because they've got to really
00:33:48
evolve the iPhone in ways and and I
00:33:50
still have to get some glasses thing
00:33:52
going. I know you're against it, but
00:33:54
there's some lighter glasses thing that
00:33:56
has to get going. I think they haven't
00:33:57
been great in the home. They've been
00:33:59
okay. Um, and so there's a lot of and
00:34:02
and then of course how how AI is
00:34:04
integrated into all these products is
00:34:06
going to be with in with privacy and
00:34:08
safety, especially given the rage about
00:34:11
AI. Um, I know you all think AI is not
00:34:13
going to happen, but it's going to
00:34:14
happen. So I think that's I think we'll
00:34:16
see. I think it, you know, again, this
00:34:18
is a group of people that have been
00:34:19
there forever, and I would have liked to
00:34:22
see maybe a little bit more um shakeup,
00:34:26
but I see why they don't. Why would
00:34:27
they? and because it's working and so
00:34:29
he's, you know, he's younger, he's more
00:34:31
vibrant, and we'll see how he does.
00:34:33
Anyway, uh let's go on a quick break.
00:34:34
When we come back, uh new deals, new
00:34:37
details about SpaceX IPO.
00:34:40
>> Support for the show comes from BMC.
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00:36:44
Scott, we're back. as SpaceX Blockbuster
00:36:46
IPO approaches. The company is doubling
00:36:48
down on AI, striking a deal with Cursor,
00:36:50
a coding startup for a possible $60
00:36:52
billion acquisition.
00:36:54
Uh, also some new details from the IPO
00:36:56
filing. Elon and a group of insiders
00:36:58
will have control of the company through
00:37:00
a dual stock uh dual class stock
00:37:02
structure. What a surprise. Elon
00:37:04
increased his stake in SpaceX last year,
00:37:06
buying $1.4 billion worth of stock from
00:37:09
current and former employees. He stands
00:37:10
to get 60 million more in shares if
00:37:13
SpaceX market cap reaches $6.6 trillion
00:37:16
and the company completes a plan to
00:37:18
build data centers in space. Slight
00:37:20
hitch. The IPO perspectus warns that
00:37:23
data centers and plans for the moon and
00:37:25
Mars rely on unproven tech and might not
00:37:27
be commercially viable. Um let me just
00:37:31
add um talk about these plans and in
00:37:34
other news Tesla is out with it latest
00:37:36
earnings reporting better than expected
00:37:37
numbers but still way below levels from
00:37:39
a few years ago. One bright spot. The
00:37:41
company said demand around the world is
00:37:42
growing obviously because of rising fuel
00:37:44
prices increased demand for EVs and
00:37:46
they're the front runner in that shares
00:37:48
initially rose in extended trading but
00:37:50
gave up those gains since Elon warned
00:37:52
that significant increase in capital
00:37:53
capbacks which he noted was going to
00:37:56
start at $25 billion for robots and all
00:37:59
sorts of large ambitious projects. I
00:38:01
don't really care that he does those.
00:38:02
Cool. If it work great, if they don't,
00:38:05
too bad, you know, shareholders. Um, you
00:38:08
know, again, it's the Tesla, the car
00:38:10
business is not the business anymore, so
00:38:12
he's got to reach for something else. I
00:38:14
don't fault them for that. Um, any uh
00:38:17
any thoughts about the IPO and then
00:38:19
Tesla?
00:38:21
>> Well, the the the news is their
00:38:24
acquisition or announced acquisition of
00:38:26
Kurser and my sense is that XAI has not
00:38:30
figured out a way to develop a revenue
00:38:32
model or a product that garners revenue.
00:38:34
Well, all the all the founders have left
00:38:36
except for Elon. I think there's nobody
00:38:38
left.
00:38:38
>> Cursor is their attempt, I think, to
00:38:40
bolt on a front end that has a
00:38:41
commercially viable product.
00:38:42
>> Yeah, you're right.
00:38:43
>> The other observation I would make is
00:38:45
that,
00:38:46
>> you know, liars use statistitians lie
00:38:48
and liars use statistics. Some of these
00:38:52
numbers are just such [ __ ] So, when
00:38:54
OpenAI said they were raising money at
00:38:56
850 billion, okay, call it a trillion if
00:38:59
you guarantee me a 17% preferred return
00:39:01
and I have a liquidity preference. I
00:39:02
don't care what number you put on the
00:39:04
the press release. And then, you know, I
00:39:07
mean, Anthropic here and now is worth
00:39:09
more than um than OpenAI, but according
00:39:13
to OpenAI's press release, they're worth
00:39:15
two and a half times. The number that's
00:39:16
a lie here that I'd want to know more
00:39:18
information about is a $60 billion
00:39:20
acquisition price. And I would bet it's
00:39:22
structured something along the lines of
00:39:23
the following. it. If we go public and
00:39:26
get a one and a half or two trillion
00:39:28
dollar um market cap, we're going to
00:39:30
give you options where 3% of the
00:39:32
company, which da da da is $60 billion.
00:39:34
They don't have $60 billion in cash
00:39:36
anywhere. So,
00:39:37
>> and also Andre's all mobbed up with that
00:39:39
one, I think, and a whole bunch. They're
00:39:41
all the same people,
00:39:42
>> but they want to put out a headline
00:39:44
number of $60 billion to canote more
00:39:47
value in this thing than is probably
00:39:48
there. Let me be clear. No one no one is
00:39:51
cashing a check for $60 billion right
00:39:53
now. So look, I think that look Musk
00:39:57
with respect to business and what I'll
00:39:59
call perception and pulling and a
00:40:03
narrative around getting access to cheap
00:40:05
capital to pull the future forward. He's
00:40:06
likely the best in history. Maybe with
00:40:08
the exception of I don't know Netflix
00:40:11
and Amazon played that game really
00:40:13
really deafly as well. But his ability
00:40:16
to kind of continue to say no look over
00:40:18
here as I stuff the rabbit into the hat.
00:40:19
Oh, wait. You figured out Tesla is like
00:40:21
just a mediocre auto company with low
00:40:24
mark. Wait, look over here. Oh, SpaceX
00:40:26
is only got 12 billion in revenues and a
00:40:28
one and a half. Oh, wait. Look over
00:40:29
here. I mean, it's just and integrating
00:40:33
space connectivity, broadband,
00:40:35
satellites, AI, autonomous
00:40:38
>> centers in space. Not a bad idea.
00:40:40
>> It is like every 8-year-old boy's dream.
00:40:43
I mean, it's like a company envisioned
00:40:45
for an 8-year-old.
00:40:46
>> Yeah.
00:40:47
>> But he is very good at this. He's very
00:40:49
good at in creating 1 plus one plus a
00:40:53
little bit of jazz hands equals $1.5
00:40:56
trillion.
00:40:58
And I look at this acquisition makes no
00:41:00
[ __ ] sense. It's [ __ ] The $60
00:41:02
billion number, it's probably a good
00:41:05
idea because XAI needs more human
00:41:07
capital and it needs something. It it
00:41:09
quite frankly it just needs more product
00:41:10
management.
00:41:11
>> He has to hide things in things. That's
00:41:12
why Twitter went into Grock, right, into
00:41:14
XAI because you had to hide it in there,
00:41:17
like the losses and the declines and
00:41:19
whatever. It's still hugely influential
00:41:21
for him. Same thing with this is his
00:41:24
Grock thing like all the people who he
00:41:26
started it and touted it with have left.
00:41:28
Um, so he's got to make, you know, he he
00:41:30
makes a [ __ ] into a very tasty [ __ ]
00:41:33
sandwich sometimes. Um, and and
00:41:36
spending, you know, you're just going to
00:41:37
get what you get with this guy. He's
00:41:39
going to always advantage himself. Um,
00:41:41
he wants to do cool things. He's going
00:41:43
to take your money to pay for it. And
00:41:46
the these numbers are insane, but
00:41:48
they'll probably go up. So, we don't we
00:41:50
can't say don't invest, but the fact of
00:41:52
the matter is they're they're you know,
00:41:55
are there going to be a million robots
00:41:56
in their homes? You can. And you can, by
00:41:58
the way, there's a million movies of him
00:41:59
talking about uh full self-driving. And
00:42:02
I didn't even get into this here, but it
00:42:04
didn't happen. Like, everything he said
00:42:06
was going to happen didn't happen. But
00:42:08
he's really good at raising money. He's
00:42:11
really good at innovating certain
00:42:13
things, but then he moves on. And so I
00:42:15
think you just have to go with
00:42:18
and then he has a Starlink in the middle
00:42:20
of it. And so that's that's what you get
00:42:22
with this guy. Um the question is is it
00:42:24
rabbits and and silliness or is it the
00:42:27
real thing? It and does it hardly matter
00:42:29
given the spheres go up?
00:42:31
>> See this is a problem. When you control
00:42:33
a board and you have made all the board
00:42:35
members a lot of money, you end up doing
00:42:37
deals that have no fiduciary oversight.
00:42:39
So in this instance, and this [ __ ] is
00:42:40
boring, but no one pays attention to
00:42:43
this stuff. A it was a share for share
00:42:46
deal when when SpaceX acquired XAI. And
00:42:50
they valued XAI at 76 bucks and SpaceX
00:42:53
at 527.
00:42:55
If SpaceX had a board that could push
00:42:57
back, they would say, "No, XAI is not
00:43:00
worth in any way um 270
00:43:06
billion, which is the value they're
00:43:07
putting on Twitter with an AI veneer.
00:43:10
No, it's not worth that. So, we're not
00:43:12
taking that dilution." But because Elon
00:43:14
owns equally large amounts in each, he
00:43:17
doesn't care.
00:43:18
>> He doesn't care. That's why he's going
00:43:20
to have control, right? But meanwhile,
00:43:22
SpaceX shareholders, in my view, are
00:43:23
getting [ __ ] to try and bail out XAI
00:43:27
>> and Twitter before that
00:43:28
>> and Twitter and Tesla at some point
00:43:30
>> and is bailing out Twitter shareholders
00:43:32
who he promised back me in this
00:43:35
ridiculous overpay of $44 billion and I
00:43:38
will figure out a way to get you your
00:43:40
money back. But the problem is there's
00:43:42
no one who has who can be a real
00:43:44
fiduciary here and stand up for the
00:43:45
shareholders they're supposed to
00:43:46
represent because Musk is in charge. see
00:43:49
above two class two class shareholder
00:43:51
company.
00:43:51
>> Agree. No, I think you've got it just
00:43:53
right. And you know what? I hope he gets
00:43:54
a million robots. I've heard his robotic
00:43:56
stuff is revolutionary. But like just
00:43:59
land it. Land the [ __ ] plane. So, as
00:44:01
they say, but you know, it doesn't
00:44:02
matter. These shares are going to jump.
00:44:04
They're just he has this incredible
00:44:06
ability to do so. He's the Steve Jobs
00:44:08
used to supposedly have this reality
00:44:10
distortion field except they actually
00:44:12
delivered real company products. Um I
00:44:15
think he's got a reality distortion
00:44:16
field. Sometimes things happen,
00:44:18
sometimes they don't. All right, we're
00:44:19
going to go on a quick break. When we
00:44:20
come back, we'll do a quick roundup of
00:44:22
the rest of this week's news. There's so
00:44:24
much news.
00:44:25
>> Support for the show comes from
00:44:26
Anthropic. Not every question has an
00:44:28
easy answer. And when you're looking
00:44:30
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That's cloud.ai/pivot.
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And check out CloudPro, which includes
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in today's episode. cloud.ai/pivot.
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00:46:29
Scott, we're back. Now, let's end with a
00:46:31
news rundown of other stories I'd like
00:46:33
to hit quickly. First, Health Secretary
00:46:35
RFK Jr. made quite an impression as
00:46:37
usual this week, testifying before
00:46:39
Congress, besides heavy breathing on the
00:46:41
microphone, which was disturbing. Let's
00:46:43
hear a clip of him defending Trump math
00:46:44
while Senator Elizabeth Warren tries to
00:46:46
ask a question.
00:46:48
>> There's two ways of calculating
00:46:49
percentage. If you have a $600 drug and
00:46:52
you reduce it to 10, that's a 600%
00:46:54
reduction.
00:46:55
>> He just kept going on the math.
00:46:57
Elizabeth Warren wasn't having any of
00:46:58
it. Meanwhile, a report showing the
00:47:00
efficacy of CO 19 vaccines has been
00:47:03
blocked from being published in the CDC
00:47:05
and preventions scientific journal. It's
00:47:07
the second time they're doing trying to
00:47:09
pretend these vaccines didn't work. Um,
00:47:12
thoughts very quickly.
00:47:13
>> I think HEGs is doing more damage to
00:47:16
people outside of the US than any person
00:47:18
in re recent history. And I think RFK
00:47:20
Jr. is going to do more cause more
00:47:22
death, disease, and disability amongst
00:47:24
Americans than any person in recent
00:47:26
history. And President Trump has to take
00:47:28
credit for that, but when you listen to
00:47:30
the guy talk, he just he absolutely has
00:47:33
no qual. If there's one I mean, you just
00:47:36
did you're doing a show on this. If
00:47:38
there's one place you need to defer to
00:47:40
the experts and folks, expertise is an
00:47:43
actual thing, it's around health. And
00:47:46
they have clearly decided, all right,
00:47:48
this guy is a [ __ ] luth cannon
00:47:49
talking about raccoons genitalia. And
00:47:52
they have basically said, keep this guy
00:47:54
out of the news. What's interesting is
00:47:56
that if he had ovaries, they would have
00:47:58
fired him by now. I mean, they seem to
00:48:00
be quick to fire women.
00:48:01
>> Women. So, the dirty mouth lady left the
00:48:04
labor department.
00:48:04
>> I mean, what the three people now that
00:48:07
have been let go, all women. Anyway,
00:48:08
>> there was one guy failing who's fighting
00:48:11
with Hegath, but go ahead.
00:48:12
>> The Navy Secretary.
00:48:13
>> Yeah.
00:48:14
>> Yeah. So, look, he I I think RFK Jr. is
00:48:18
I and I this word's overused. RFK Jr. is
00:48:20
dangerous,
00:48:21
>> murderous,
00:48:21
>> and no one loves, you know, no one loves
00:48:24
RFK Jr. more than measles. And we're
00:48:27
about to see, in my opinion, we've
00:48:28
already seen it, a potential comeback of
00:48:31
some of the most devastating diseases
00:48:32
which we had eradicated because of just
00:48:35
junk science head up your ass um beliefs
00:48:39
and conspiracy theories. The fact that
00:48:41
this guy has been charged with the
00:48:42
health of America and oversees the CDC
00:48:46
is going to set us back
00:48:49
years if not decades.
00:48:50
>> Decades, decades. And also, he's just
00:48:52
such a suckup to Trump. Except, let me
00:48:54
just tell you, he's running for
00:48:55
president, too. By the way,
00:48:56
>> he's running for they all wake up in the
00:48:57
morning is. And those ma maha people
00:49:00
will stick with him.
00:49:01
>> They all wake up in the morning, look in
00:49:02
the mirror, and say, "Hello, madame or
00:49:04
Mr. President." All of these people
00:49:06
cannot be our president. like, oh god,
00:49:08
if I had to pick, I I don't know what I
00:49:10
would do. And I'm not going to have to
00:49:12
pick. I won't pick any of them. Um, very
00:49:14
quickly, cryptobillionaire Justin Sun
00:49:16
has sued the Trump family's crypto
00:49:18
venture, accusing criminal extortion for
00:49:19
freezing digital tokens over his refusal
00:49:22
to invest more money with the company
00:49:24
over at True Social. Devon Nunes has
00:49:26
departed as the company CEO after four
00:49:28
years in the role where they made, I
00:49:29
don't know, $5 million a year and one
00:49:31
year he was paid $46 million. He's an
00:49:34
incompetent [ __ ] Thoughts on that?
00:49:36
Just what a surprise, Justin son. You
00:49:38
tried to pay to get out of an SEC thing
00:49:40
and they [ __ ] you. What a surprise.
00:49:42
Mobsters are going to mob. I don't know
00:49:44
what else to say. And the Witoffs are
00:49:45
involved somewhere in here. It's one of
00:49:48
the children.
00:49:48
>> It goes to the notion of reckoning. I
00:49:50
think it should be done to the letter of
00:49:51
the law, but I I think right now uh the
00:49:56
many of the people running for president
00:49:57
or just many of our our fine people
00:49:59
serving in government in the Congress
00:50:01
should be outlining and putting out
00:50:03
plans to work with to coordinate with
00:50:05
states. AG that that somewhere has to be
00:50:09
a crime and I think we have to start
00:50:11
signaling we are going to pursue these
00:50:13
crimes and the statute of limitations I
00:50:15
believe on the imalments whatever it is
00:50:19
this is probably this is probably I bet
00:50:23
there's some very serious crimes this
00:50:24
could potentially under defense threats
00:50:28
so but the fact that I went to an event
00:50:31
where Steven Wickoff I spoke right after
00:50:33
him I just can't get over and the vice
00:50:36
president, vice president Gore was
00:50:38
there. I'm like, this guy is engaging in
00:50:41
naked criminality.
00:50:43
And so, and by the way, I don't think it
00:50:45
should be political retribution. I think
00:50:47
we also should go after some Democrats
00:50:49
specifically around insider trading.
00:50:51
>> Well, let me get to that. For the
00:50:52
prediction market news, Kelsey has fined
00:50:54
and suspended three congressional
00:50:56
candidates, uh, not both Democrats and
00:50:58
Republicans, uh, for betting on their
00:51:00
own races. That's not allowed over there
00:51:02
at Kelchi. uh thoughts. They're they're
00:51:05
that all these rules have to go in
00:51:07
place. A lot of companies are doing them
00:51:08
now. Um do not be do not be betting on
00:51:11
stuff like this. It is insider trading.
00:51:13
I'm glad Kelsey called it out as that.
00:51:15
>> It was a brilliant move on Kh's part. I
00:51:18
mean, okay, so there's good and really
00:51:19
bad here. The good is that Kali has
00:51:22
said, and this will cost them. The
00:51:24
politicians will come out against them.
00:51:26
They said you're not allowed to do this.
00:51:27
We're finding you. That's the good part.
00:51:29
Good for them. smart move politically,
00:51:31
strategically for uh Tar, the CEO of
00:51:34
Kelshi. This is what's wrong with it. We
00:51:38
shouldn't need companies to regulate
00:51:39
themselves. We the fact that, you know,
00:51:43
the marketplace hates a void. It hates a
00:51:46
vacuum. There's so little regulation
00:51:49
that the company itself
00:51:51
is finding people. It's like it if what
00:51:55
if what if all of a sudden Chevron said,
00:51:58
"Okay, you're manufacturing our oil and
00:52:01
putting too much carbon into the air
00:52:02
because we are so [ __ ] freaked out
00:52:04
about the lack of an an EPA." That's
00:52:07
where we are right now. The only
00:52:08
regulation that's come down the pike in
00:52:11
this stuff has usually been regulation
00:52:12
to stop regulation. And so when
00:52:15
companies feel everybody hopes that a
00:52:16
company's going to weigh in and regulate
00:52:18
themselves, that is not the way to run
00:52:20
industry or a country.
00:52:21
>> Not at all. And they are they are in
00:52:23
some cases. A lot several companies have
00:52:25
put in rules about this.
00:52:26
>> But it's insider trading is all we it's
00:52:29
insider.
00:52:29
>> But the fact that just gives you a sense
00:52:31
for the fact there's no sheriff here.
00:52:33
It's basically this is to a certain
00:52:35
extent it's kind of like vigilanteism
00:52:37
that because there's no sheriff around.
00:52:40
We have to enforce the law. So good on
00:52:43
Khi, but it's a it's a terrible
00:52:45
indictment on our lack of regulatory
00:52:47
infrastructure.
00:52:48
>> Agreed. One of them said he was doing it
00:52:49
for a reason to show how bad it was.
00:52:51
Give me a break. Anyway, uh, one more
00:52:54
quick break. We'll be back for
00:52:56
predictions.
00:52:58
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00:55:03
Okay, Scott, we're going to do some
00:55:04
predictions very quickly. So people
00:55:05
know, Warner Brothers shareholders just
00:55:07
approved the deal with Paramount,
00:55:08
although it's facing a lot of regulatory
00:55:11
scrutiny. I suspect it'll get through,
00:55:12
but it's going to be a lot bumpier. And
00:55:15
um so that's going to be an interesting
00:55:16
thing. There's a lot of push back from
00:55:18
Hollywood, all kinds of regulators. Um
00:55:21
so even if it's just reach this step, um
00:55:24
I got my thing in the mail. I own some
00:55:25
Warner shares. Um, thanks for the money,
00:55:28
David. Uh, uh, it's, uh, we'll see where
00:55:32
it goes. I I don't know. There might it
00:55:33
might be a little rockier than than
00:55:36
people think, but they'll probably shove
00:55:37
it through because they've only got a
00:55:39
few months to before Trump loses a lot
00:55:41
of power. Your your prediction?
00:55:43
>> By the way, it's right now on the
00:55:46
prediction markets, it's saying that the
00:55:48
likelihood it closes is around 72%,
00:55:50
which is less than I thought.
00:55:52
>> Yeah.
00:55:52
>> They're saying there's a real there's
00:55:54
like a one in three chance it doesn't
00:55:55
close. Yeah, there's some rockiness
00:55:56
there. Anyway, go ahead.
00:55:58
>> My prediction is that when the SpaceX
00:56:00
value when the SpaceX IPO goes out,
00:56:03
>> you will see an almost not an equivalent
00:56:06
but a proportionate decline in the value
00:56:08
of Tesla
00:56:10
>> because right now investors are paying
00:56:12
for that Elon premium and that is an
00:56:14
inflated multiple in exchange for Musk
00:56:17
charisma and vision. And right now
00:56:19
Tesla's Ford P is 185. That's 12 times
00:56:22
higher than the auto industry. And
00:56:24
basically they're they're paying 12
00:56:26
times what anyone else is garnering in
00:56:27
the auto industry for a car company that
00:56:29
has posted sales declines for two years
00:56:32
in a row. And abroad BYYD has surpassed
00:56:35
Tesla as the largest seller of EVs and
00:56:38
eating away its European share. In
00:56:40
addition,
00:56:40
>> new battery technology they're doing in
00:56:42
China right now that looks really
00:56:43
promising. Go ahead.
00:56:44
>> In addition, robo taxi and Optimus are
00:56:46
longshot bets that may not pay off for 5
00:56:48
years if at all. So essentially all of a
00:56:51
sudden retail investors are going to
00:56:53
have an opportunity to buy into some of
00:56:54
that Elon vision and magic but with
00:56:56
SpaceX. And so I think that magic
00:56:59
acolyte worship of that creates that 185
00:57:03
times earnings of Tesla is going to
00:57:05
massively deflate because I think all of
00:57:07
that idolatry revenue is going to go
00:57:08
into SpaceX.
00:57:10
>> Oh, that's interesting. So boom.
00:57:12
>> So what you'll see is
00:57:13
>> what if he merges it in?
00:57:16
>> Boom.
00:57:18
They need robots at their data centers
00:57:19
in space.
00:57:20
>> You've predicted that for a while.
00:57:22
>> I I was right about the last one.
00:57:24
>> Yeah, you predict. Well, okay, that's a
00:57:26
whole different ballgame. But if there's
00:57:27
assuming they maintain distinct capital
00:57:30
structures, you're going to basically
00:57:32
see just a massive transfer of market
00:57:34
cap from Tesla to SpaceX.
00:57:37
>> The the stuffing gets knocked out of
00:57:38
Tesla. They're not going to make the
00:57:40
robots that are going to run the data
00:57:41
centers in space.
00:57:42
>> I look, I think industrial
00:57:44
industrialized robots are incredibly
00:57:46
exciting. I I think the notion that
00:57:47
you're going to have a robot in your
00:57:48
house bringing you your soup or
00:57:50
whatever. I just don't I don't I don't
00:57:52
see that.
00:57:52
>> I'm gonna have that for you when you're
00:57:54
old in case you're
00:57:54
>> I've already got a Filipino man named
00:57:56
Manny with well moisturized hands lined
00:57:58
up.
00:57:59
>> No, you're getting a robot named
00:58:01
Barbara.
00:58:02
>> You're going to push me around. You're
00:58:03
going to have trouble sitting over the
00:58:04
back of my wheelchair
00:58:06
>> and I'll tell you dirty jokes and you'll
00:58:07
tell me to show
00:58:08
>> hitting you on the head like I can't
00:58:09
believe you said that back in 2014.
00:58:13
>> We're late for our podcast.
00:58:16
They they won a webbby 40 years ago.
00:58:18
>> Yeah, that's true. We won.
00:58:19
>> We didn't talk about the Webbies.
00:58:20
>> Oh my god. We won a Web We won. We won
00:58:22
both web. Both all of us. And also Lost
00:58:24
Boys got one, right? Is that correct?
00:58:27
>> So you won for On with Cara Swisser and
00:58:30
>> Interview.
00:58:31
>> And Pivot won its third year in a row
00:58:33
for best business podcast.
00:58:35
>> And my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice,
00:58:38
won for best business newsletter. And
00:58:39
>> it's a great business newsletter.
00:58:41
>> Thank you. and Lost Boys won for best
00:58:44
special series co-hosted with uh the
00:58:46
Mooch.
00:58:48
Five Webbby wins between the two of us.
00:58:50
Cara,
00:58:51
>> anyway, uh we appreciate that. We like
00:58:53
the Webbies. We have fun with them.
00:58:54
Anyway, that's a fun show. We want to
00:58:56
hear from you. Send us your questions
00:58:57
about business tech or whatever's on
00:58:59
your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot
00:59:01
to submit a question for the show or
00:59:02
call 8551
00:59:04
pivot. Okay, that's the show. Very good
00:59:06
show, Scott. That was a very good
00:59:07
discussion. I appreciate it.
00:59:08
>> I think I where I came across as
00:59:09
defensive.
00:59:10
>> No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You
00:59:11
didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't.
00:59:13
No, it was called a discussion. Anyway,
00:59:15
>> when will I be enough? Cara,
00:59:17
>> never. Thanks for listening to Pivot and
00:59:20
be sure to like and subscribe to our
00:59:22
YouTube channel. We'll be back next
00:59:24
week.

Episode Highlights

  • Tucker Carlson's Regret
    Tucker Carlson expresses regret for his role in supporting Trump, reflecting on the consequences of his actions.
    “It's not enough to say, "Well, I changed my mind."”
    @ 00m 38s
    April 24, 2026
  • 2028 GOP Nominee Speculation
    A bold prediction suggests Tucker Carlson could be the leading GOP nominee for president in 2028.
    “I think Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP nominee for president in 2028.”
    @ 04m 24s
    April 24, 2026
  • Censorship in Politics
    A discussion highlights how both sides of the political spectrum deal with censorship and purity tests.
    “The right has gotten so censorious.”
    @ 14m 14s
    April 24, 2026
  • The Reckoning of Culture
    A discussion on the need for forgiveness in a culture of outrage and division.
    “We need to massively increase the aperture around forgiveness.”
    @ 19m 12s
    April 24, 2026
  • Tim Cook's Legacy
    Tim Cook is hailed as the most successful successor in corporate history, transforming Apple into a powerhouse.
    “Tim Cook is the most successful successor in corporate history.”
    @ 27m 16s
    April 24, 2026
  • The iPhone's Unique Success
    The iPhone is recognized as the most successful product in history, combining high volume and high margins.
    “The iPhone is the only product in history that’s managed to get the production volume of a Toyota with the margins of a Ferrari.”
    @ 29m 35s
    April 24, 2026
  • BMC's Role in AI Evolution
    BMC is positioned as the automation engine for the AI era, ready to partner with businesses.
    “BMC is ready to partner with them.”
    @ 35m 17s
    April 24, 2026
  • Harvey AI's Vision for Law
    Harvey AI aims to revolutionize legal work with AI agents that handle complex tasks.
    “The future of law is Agentic.”
    @ 35m 42s
    April 24, 2026
  • SpaceX's Bold Moves
    As the SpaceX IPO approaches, Elon Musk increases his stake and explores a $60 billion acquisition.
    “What a surprise. Elon increased his stake in SpaceX last year.”
    @ 37m 04s
    April 24, 2026
  • Elon Musk's Business Tactics
    Musk's ability to create narratives and raise capital is both impressive and controversial.
    “He’s very good at creating a narrative around getting access to cheap capital.”
    @ 40m 06s
    April 24, 2026
  • Regulatory Challenges
    The current lack of regulatory infrastructure is leading to a vigilante approach in industry.
    “It's basically this is to a certain extent it's kind of like vigilanteism”
    @ 52m 33s
    April 24, 2026
  • Webby Wins
    Celebrating multiple wins at the Webbys, including for best business podcast and newsletter.
    “We won a Web We won. We won both web.”
    @ 58m 22s
    April 24, 2026

Episode Quotes

  • He makes JD Vance look likable.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot
  • The right has gotten so censorious.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot
  • I think Tim Cook is the most successful successor in corporate history.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot
  • BMC is ready to partner with them.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot
  • He’s got a reality distortion field.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot
  • Give me a break. Anyway, uh, one more quick break.
    The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot

Key Moments

  • Tucker's Regret00:38
  • 2028 Predictions04:24
  • Censorship Debate14:14
  • BMC Automation35:17
  • SpaceX IPO36:46
  • Elon Musk's Strategies40:06
  • Vigilanteism52:33
  • Webby Wins58:22

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

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America’s Credit Rating Dropped and You’re Going to Pay for It | Pivot
May 20, 2025
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55:59
America’s Credit Rating Dropped and You’re Going to Pay for It | Pivot