00:00:15
tell me about
00:00:17
the problems that banks have that people
00:00:19
aren't
00:00:20
taking a close look at what are the
00:00:21
skeletons in the closets that
00:00:23
that don't get talked about usually when
00:00:25
we talk with
00:00:27
professionals who sometimes have an
00:00:28
interest in in
00:00:30
presenting let's say the best foot
00:00:32
forward sure
00:00:34
uh steve you know i think i think it's
00:00:36
well known that they're somewhere in the
00:00:38
range of
00:00:38
1.5 to 1.8 trillion dollars worth of
00:00:42
commercial real estate loans
00:00:44
that are coming due over the course the
00:00:46
next year four to five years
00:00:48
um during 2009 it was about 200 million
00:00:53
and a lot of that was extended i think
00:00:56
you've heard the phrase coined extend or
00:00:58
pretend
00:00:59
um at some point the banking community
00:01:02
is going to have to deal with
00:01:04
uh these maturities if there's not a
00:01:06
refinancing market
00:01:08
how is it going to be dealt with is it a
00:01:09
modification is it a foreclosure
00:01:12
reo real estate owned taking back the
00:01:14
keys to the property
00:01:16
or is there going to be some other
00:01:18
solution i think a lot of the banks
00:01:20
right now
00:01:21
have not taken what people refer to as
00:01:23
the mark
00:01:24
and writing those to assets down to the
00:01:27
level that perhaps
00:01:28
folks think the market value is today
00:01:30
now we heard on
00:01:31
the panel this morning that very few
00:01:34
banks want to do that because they don't
00:01:36
have to do it at least right now because
00:01:38
of
00:01:38
the low interest rate environment and
00:01:40
should interest rates change then we've
00:01:42
got an entirely different
00:01:44
environment of course is so
00:01:47
can how long can this extend and pretend
00:01:50
go on is that the same thing as asking
00:01:52
how long are we going to have interest
00:01:54
rates this low
00:01:56
uh interesting question i i think at
00:01:59
some point
00:02:00
um for the origination markets to really
00:02:04
open up
00:02:04
uh people the banks are going to have to
00:02:06
deal with these issues so
00:02:08
a lot of people say there's a stoma
00:02:10
right now between
00:02:11
the equity that's sitting on the
00:02:13
sidelines that looks to
00:02:14
to potentially buy these assets and then
00:02:17
the banks themselves who are holding
00:02:19
these these mortgage loans
00:02:20
that's the bid ask spread uh in terms of
00:02:23
you know when they're going to deal with
00:02:25
it um it's going to take one of
00:02:27
several things uh it's going to take a
00:02:30
government action
00:02:32
for example what kind of action um in
00:02:34
terms of you know
00:02:35
for for example um setting a set of
00:02:38
guidelines that actually prescribes how
00:02:40
banks are supposed to specifically mark
00:02:41
these items
00:02:42
uh it could be a regulatory angle it
00:02:44
could be an accounting standard change
00:02:46
there's been a lot of that already had
00:02:47
some of those had some of that yes and
00:02:49
they've had their fair share of
00:02:50
controversy
00:02:53
my sense is and then you've also had
00:02:55
some transactions
00:02:57
which have occurred albeit in a world of
00:02:59
distress
00:03:01
my sense is that we're getting closer to
00:03:04
a point where people are getting ready
00:03:05
to transact
00:03:07
and absent any more intervention or
00:03:10
changes at either a regulatory
00:03:12
or a an accounting policy level
00:03:16
at some point in the next 12 to 18
00:03:18
months you're going to see a lot more
00:03:20
transacting with these loans
00:03:22
um larger banks will have the benefit of
00:03:26
multiple other income streams and and
00:03:28
trading operations being able to cover
00:03:30
if you will um
00:03:32
the need to make large write-downs on
00:03:34
these assets smaller
00:03:36
regional and community banks will be
00:03:38
subject to a different set of dynamics
00:03:40
and then you have you know banks that
00:03:42
are on fdic watch lists right now
00:03:44
uh which desperately need capital um
00:03:48
and it's interesting that they need
00:03:49
capital to survive and yet we have this
00:03:51
capital that's on the sideline and we're
00:03:54
still not getting to a point where
00:03:56
there is a flow of activity what do you
00:03:58
think is the ideal solution
00:04:00
do you think that there's something
00:04:02
positive the government could offer here
00:04:05
um you know it's interesting uh you've
00:04:08
got a lot of
00:04:08
industry observers commenting on what
00:04:10
they believe
00:04:11
uh needs to happen um
00:04:15
my lens talking to my clients some of
00:04:17
them are a private equity
00:04:19
and uh institutional investors uh some
00:04:22
of them are banks
00:04:24
and then also talking to you know folks
00:04:26
who have dealt
00:04:27
uh frequently and recently with with
00:04:30
government agencies
00:04:31
is it actually needs to involve a
00:04:33
cooperation of
00:04:34
of multiple parties it might be a
00:04:37
situation where we have
00:04:39
private equity comes into part of the
00:04:41
equation um
00:04:43
existing healthy banks are also part of
00:04:45
the solution
00:04:46
and then perhaps you've got fdic as a
00:04:48
backstop
00:04:50
um even for commercial property you're
00:04:52
suggesting
00:04:53
uh that even for commercial property so
00:04:56
after
00:04:57
after the bank bailouts that we've had
00:04:59
and the sentiment out there
00:05:00
um do you really think there's going to
00:05:02
be much appetite for public money to be
00:05:04
used for commercial i think it's a
00:05:06
backstop
00:05:07
you know i think the the bailout of the
00:05:09
big banks has been just that it's been a
00:05:11
bailout of the big banks
00:05:12
and i think samsel made the comment
00:05:14
today is like a lot of
00:05:16
folks out there don't realize that
00:05:18
bailing out the big banks
00:05:19
on wall street is bailing out what
00:05:22
uh main street as well because those
00:05:24
banks and those institutions are
00:05:26
critical
00:05:27
to main street right that gets
00:05:29
translated differently through the
00:05:30
politics of course
00:05:31
it does of course um however i think a
00:05:35
lot of the regional and community banks
00:05:36
have not been recipients
00:05:39
of that funding but they're actually the
00:05:41
ones who have a fairly large exposure
00:05:44
to lending on the commercial real estate
00:05:46
side so that's interesting because i
00:05:48
i've read someplace that the top 20
00:05:50
banks basically have very little
00:05:52
exposure to commercial real estate
00:05:54
and it's it's the big regional banks and
00:05:56
the small banks
00:05:57
big regional and community banks
00:05:58
community banks with construction loans
00:06:00
and so forth
00:06:00
the construction loans are challenging
00:06:02
uh just lack of cash flow
00:06:06
and i think a stabilized asset is an
00:06:09
easier one
00:06:10
to deal with from a loan perspective and
00:06:13
then to the actual underlying asset but
00:06:15
a non-cash flowing asset
00:06:16
one that needs continued investment or
00:06:19
incremental investment
00:06:20
is more challenging to work through you
00:06:23
know whichever way you look at it steve
00:06:25
it's going to require participation from
00:06:27
multiple constitu constituents
00:06:30
and so you know i'd like to think that
00:06:33
you know given given
00:06:34
my my lens on in the world right now
00:06:36
that
00:06:37
the um regional community banks
00:06:40
uh some of them will be healthier than
00:06:42
others and and have an opportunity
00:06:44
to participate in this process to expand
00:06:47
their footprint i'd like to think that
00:06:49
the fdic or other government agencies
00:06:52
will be there to endorse or bless a
00:06:54
transaction
00:06:54
i'd like to think that the private
00:06:56
equity participants can also
00:06:58
play an important role of recapitalizing
00:07:01
some of those institutions into a
00:07:03
healthier state
00:07:04
is that something like what was done
00:07:06
with the
00:07:07
snls in the late 80s early 90s in other
00:07:10
words
00:07:11
you had institutions flat on their back
00:07:13
you had government come in and at least
00:07:15
propped them up to the extent that they
00:07:17
they didn't go out which they would have
00:07:19
without the propping up and then you had
00:07:22
bottom feeders come in and buy them up
00:07:23
at
00:07:24
prices and that were very attractive if
00:07:27
you had confidence in the market and of
00:07:28
course they made a killing by the mid
00:07:30
90s some of these
00:07:31
these players that had consolidated a
00:07:32
lot of these little banks were were big
00:07:34
regional players themselves and they had
00:07:36
done
00:07:36
exceptionally well yeah uh different
00:07:39
world today
00:07:39
obviously um and i have heard people
00:07:42
reflect upon you know why aren't we
00:07:44
doing an rtc type structure today
00:07:47
there's definitely a different political
00:07:49
landscape right now
00:07:51
and there's also a very large volume if
00:07:54
you look back to the rtc days or the
00:07:56
savings and loans and you compare it to
00:07:57
the volume
00:07:59
of distress out there today so there's
00:08:01
already been more
00:08:02
money far more money lend to aig alone
00:08:04
than there was the entire snl industry
00:08:06
at that time
00:08:07
absolutely um and i think back in in the
00:08:10
snl uh um crisis or
00:08:14
if you will um you also had a much
00:08:16
different array of loan product
00:08:18
um and you know since the snl crisis uh
00:08:21
you really had proliferation and new
00:08:23
sorts of
00:08:24
sources of capital one of them was cmbs
00:08:27
and so that was kind of post snl and i'd
00:08:30
say
00:08:30
that that has added to the complexity
00:08:34
and then you add to that as well
00:08:37
multiple participations by different
00:08:38
banking institutions
00:08:40
in the site in the one loan um
00:08:43
and you have various forms whether it's
00:08:45
syndication
00:08:47
or uh or going out there and secured as
00:08:50
a securitizing product
00:08:52
that basically makes for a much more
00:08:55
complicated capital stack
00:08:57
in some instances uh we've seen a couple
00:08:59
of examples already
00:09:00
with the the complexity within the
00:09:02
capital stacks today
00:09:04
is such that folks are saying the only
00:09:06
way to deal with this
00:09:07
is through some kind of cleansing
00:09:09
process
00:09:10
whether it be a foreclosure or more
00:09:13
pointedly a bankruptcy
00:09:15
and we have seen examples of that so
00:09:17
given that
00:09:19
commercial real estate is a lagging
00:09:21
indicator and what you're suggesting
00:09:23
is that things are coming to a head as
00:09:26
it were
00:09:26
that some of the problems are that have
00:09:29
been able to be
00:09:30
extended and pretending that that
00:09:33
payments were being made when in fact a
00:09:35
lot of concessions were
00:09:36
were being made behind the scenes that
00:09:38
that peers
00:09:39
going to be forced to come to an end uh
00:09:42
the kinds of changes you're talking
00:09:43
about
00:09:44
may be starting to begin how long of a
00:09:46
process is it until
00:09:48
the market sort of washed out and and
00:09:50
ready to look ahead to
00:09:52
more normal times i'm assuming we're
00:09:55
talking years here steve i wouldn't be
00:09:56
here if i knew the answer to that
00:09:58
uh you know crystal ball aside you know
00:10:01
there's a lot of
00:10:02
a lot of issues that need to be worked
00:10:05
through
00:10:06
the good news is there's a lot of
00:10:08
capital on the sideline it's and they
00:10:10
are patient pools of capital and they
00:10:11
want to deploy but they also want to
00:10:13
deploy in an environment
00:10:14
in which they have a little bit of
00:10:16
certainty around the investment
00:10:18
parameters
00:10:19
uh there's been a lot of concern about
00:10:21
the uh the bow out of big banks and the
00:10:23
impact that that's had on
00:10:24
you know compensation and other areas of
00:10:27
scrutiny from the investing public
00:10:29
um so that's created a little bit of
00:10:32
angst
00:10:33
um i think there's also a little bit of
00:10:34
angst in the system right now in terms
00:10:36
of
00:10:37
people that do participate in the like a
00:10:40
loan sale
00:10:41
program or process uh that is being run
00:10:44
are frustrated at the number of other
00:10:46
bidders that are coming in and bidding
00:10:48
up the price of the assets
00:10:49
or the underlying quality of the
00:10:51
information so
00:10:53
systemically there are a number of
00:10:56
things
00:10:57
uh that are little that are roadblocks
00:10:59
to
00:11:00
an efficient recovery if you will
00:11:03
what are some or who are some of those
00:11:05
investors
00:11:06
we're talking about u.s commercial
00:11:07
property here i assume uh and who are
00:11:09
some of these investors that uh
00:11:11
that are crowding out the field is it
00:11:13
are the overseas investors for example
00:11:16
sovereign wealth funds perhaps uh yeah
00:11:19
there's
00:11:19
there's an array of different investors
00:11:21
and you you're obviously familiar with
00:11:23
the private equity capital i think uh
00:11:25
one of our panelists
00:11:26
today talked about the 78 billion
00:11:30
dollars sitting there on the sidelines
00:11:32
ready to deploy into commercial real
00:11:34
estate
00:11:34
majority of that is looking at paper and
00:11:37
not the underlying assets
00:11:39
so you've got that pool of capital
00:11:41
you've got the pool of capital with
00:11:42
uh in the public markets in the last
00:11:45
eight months nine months
00:11:47
the public markets have been very uh
00:11:49
positive towards real estate
00:11:51
whether it be newly formed reits that
00:11:54
are going out there to pursue a mandate
00:11:56
in distress buying distressed
00:11:58
opportunities or originating
00:12:00
or alternatively recently we've had a
00:12:02
number of blind pool reits
00:12:04
going after specific asset classes like
00:12:06
hotels
00:12:07
so there's been 30 plus billion raised
00:12:10
in that area
00:12:11
and then for the so so reits are very
00:12:14
positive and bullish
00:12:15
yeah and the public markets have have
00:12:16
provided some liquidity there and it's
00:12:18
interesting that
00:12:19
that that source of capital the public
00:12:21
markets provides an interesting vehicle
00:12:23
for real estate because it gives people
00:12:25
the exposure the asset class
00:12:27
but it also gives them liquidity uh
00:12:30
so you can sell down a portion of your
00:12:32
holding whereas it's it's tough to sell
00:12:34
down a porsche
00:12:35
an office building so how interest rate
00:12:37
dependent is all this
00:12:39
and then continue can i come back to the
00:12:41
interest rate dependency
00:12:43
okay and then add category number three
00:12:46
is
00:12:46
is you've got you know large pools of
00:12:49
these
00:12:49
um reits that are non-traded
00:12:53
and i think that's about 70 billion
00:12:54
dollars year-to-date and then you have
00:12:57
individuals high net worth individuals
00:12:59
domestically who are
00:13:00
looking at this as rtc2 saying this is
00:13:04
how all the big
00:13:05
guys today uh got to where they are they
00:13:08
made some prudent purchases during the
00:13:09
last down cycle
00:13:11
and and were able to you know come out
00:13:14
of that cycle
00:13:15
you know very strong and then you've got
00:13:18
offshore capital and with exchange rates
00:13:21
where they are right now
00:13:22
you've got offshore private equity also
00:13:25
looking at the u.s saying
00:13:26
risk adjusted this is a good place to be
00:13:28
given asset prices right now
00:13:30
sovereign wealth even though some
00:13:32
sovereign wealth have got their own
00:13:34
share of issues
00:13:35
i think there's still a huge pool of
00:13:37
capital out there
00:13:39
looking for an allocation towards u.s
00:13:41
commercial real estate i mean that's
00:13:42
very the very group that can afford to
00:13:44
to buy and sit and wait i would think uh
00:13:46
they're long-term players without a
00:13:48
doubt
00:13:48
and a lot of them are looking to put
00:13:50
commercial real estate into their
00:13:51
portfolios as
00:13:52
a tool for for diversification sorry
00:13:55
i i went on there that's okay do you
00:13:57
want me to address the uh the interest
00:13:58
rate issue please yes
00:14:00
because can you repeat the question the
00:14:01
question is isn't all this
00:14:03
in interest rate dependent in other
00:14:05
words um
00:14:07
at some point interest rates are going
00:14:08
to have to rise and the timing is
00:14:10
everything
00:14:11
and if it if if rates rose
00:14:14
sooner rather than later that could
00:14:16
throw pretty big monkey wrench in some
00:14:18
of these scenarios couldn't it
00:14:20
uh without doubt without doubt i mean i
00:14:22
think if we listen to some of the panels
00:14:24
this morning
00:14:25
uh i would say there was a consensus
00:14:27
view that rates need to start being
00:14:29
ratcheted up now
00:14:31
um you know to curb fears of
00:14:34
of you know high or hyperinflation
00:14:37
down the track and so you know right now
00:14:41
you look at the lending environment and
00:14:44
the cost of funds is very low um
00:14:47
but there isn't a lot of lending going
00:14:48
on um
00:14:50
you know it does dampen as interest
00:14:52
rates go up i think what we did here
00:14:54
however steve is that
00:14:55
you could still you go up a a a couple
00:14:59
of percentage points
00:15:00
and that the dampening effect on
00:15:03
investment and commercial real estate
00:15:04
would be not so
00:15:05
significant but yet it would have a
00:15:07
moderating impact
00:15:08
you know in the macro economy and then
00:15:11
there's the question of really whether
00:15:13
folks may be advocating slightly higher
00:15:16
rates but whether the economy
00:15:17
or the authorities would actually do
00:15:19
that given the fragility of the economy
00:15:20
right now
00:15:22
that's absolutely true so another
00:15:23
question uh
00:15:25
dubai world we have to ask you about
00:15:26
that and even though
00:15:28
it looks as i guess we're about two
00:15:30
weeks since that's happened it's been
00:15:32
announced
00:15:32
um the the the waiting to to pay back
00:15:36
debt
00:15:37
uh at first there was a big reaction now
00:15:39
there's less of one
00:15:41
what kind of an effect does that have on
00:15:43
u.s investors just in terms of thinking
00:15:45
about
00:15:46
uh investing in projects in in real
00:15:48
estate in general
00:15:50
making them more cautious or or in what
00:15:52
other ways might it affect
00:15:54
uh investor psychology yeah
00:15:57
all of these uh items impact investor
00:16:00
psychology
00:16:01
um seeing a large public rate
00:16:04
um file for bankruptcy protection
00:16:07
investor sentiment it impacts a segment
00:16:10
that they're in
00:16:11
seeing another privately held company
00:16:16
file for bankruptcy as well in the you
00:16:18
know extended
00:16:21
hotel segment also creates um
00:16:24
an impact on investors sentiment you
00:16:26
know similarly
00:16:27
dubai world um you know has an impact on
00:16:30
the investor sentiment
00:16:33
i don't think it's any different to
00:16:35
other investors
00:16:37
who in this last cycle invested in
00:16:40
commercial
00:16:41
real estate and employed leverage
00:16:45
i know some participants right now look
00:16:48
at that
00:16:48
set of factors as being
00:16:52
creating conditions that that might be
00:16:55
appealing to an investor
00:16:58
i see other folks looking at that saying
00:17:00
well that creates a lot of distress
00:17:03
and dampens you know investor sentiment
00:17:05
i think
00:17:06
it depends which lens you're coming from
00:17:09
um
00:17:10
you know i i you know in many instances
00:17:13
given my role i'm subject to limitations
00:17:15
on what i can share
00:17:16
but i think it does obviously have an
00:17:18
impact on investor sentiment
00:17:19
um what i would say though is yeah
00:17:22
overall
00:17:23
um i would expect over the next you know
00:17:26
three to five years time
00:17:28
to see a broader deleveraging of
00:17:32
the commercial real estate markets
00:17:35
perhaps
00:17:36
back to more sustainable levels
00:17:40
i've heard a lot of people you know
00:17:42
touting somewhere between 60 to 70
00:17:44
percent ltv
00:17:45
the question is what is v
00:17:48
and i think that's driven to some extent
00:17:50
by leverage
00:17:53
my expectation is that that
00:17:56
the public markets the private capital
00:17:59
the offshore capital
00:18:01
um and the banking you know sector as
00:18:04
well as the government
00:18:06
are all going to be part of this uh you
00:18:08
know solution if you will
00:18:10
to have a broader deleveraging of real
00:18:12
estate you know commercial real estate
00:18:13
in the u.s
00:18:15
and that will happen over roughly what
00:18:17
kind of period three to five year period
00:18:18
of time three to five years yeah
00:18:20
okay let's switch topics quickly to uh
00:18:23
distressed debt
00:18:24
sure give me your sense of what the
00:18:25
contours are of distressed debt
00:18:28
in the u.s and then in europe it seems
00:18:30
to me from what i'm reading that in
00:18:32
in the u.s the amount of distressed debt
00:18:35
has come down quite a bit in the last
00:18:36
year
00:18:37
where it looks like europe may be just
00:18:40
about
00:18:41
to ratchet up what's your view uh
00:18:44
yeah my lens to you know lens on the u.s
00:18:47
is a lot sharper than it is
00:18:49
in in europe and i would probably
00:18:51
contend your view that
00:18:52
uh things in the us have
00:18:56
been dealt with i'm not sure what your
00:18:58
exact words were there but
00:19:00
uh i think there's still a huge amount
00:19:01
of distress in the system in the u.s
00:19:03
for debt underlying commercial real
00:19:05
estate there's a huge amount that's
00:19:07
coming up over the next five years that
00:19:09
has to be dealt with
00:19:11
i think similarly but on a lesser scale
00:19:13
in
00:19:14
europe the issue has to be dealt with
00:19:18
in in some respects some of the marks
00:19:20
have been taken
00:19:21
in europe under ifrs or under the u.s
00:19:24
accounting models
00:19:25
some of those marks to mark the loans
00:19:27
down in market value have not occurred
00:19:30
so you know in terms of scale the us
00:19:32
market has a huge
00:19:34
nut to deal with in in that regard let
00:19:37
me just
00:19:38
read you something from the ft because
00:19:39
this is what i was referring to the
00:19:41
rating agency
00:19:42
talking about moody's here now forecast
00:19:44
that default rates for us jonker's
00:19:46
speculative grade
00:19:47
debt will peak near 14 in november
00:19:50
before falling back swiftly to four
00:19:52
percent in a year's time
00:19:54
that's that sounds like a big change
00:19:58
that is a big change and you know to be
00:20:00
honest it's probably one that i don't
00:20:01
want to comment on
00:20:03
just because you know the speculative
00:20:05
nature
00:20:06
is is there more you can you can offer
00:20:08
though on your views of distressed debt
00:20:11
yeah it's interesting we you know we
00:20:12
work um
00:20:14
as a practice with a number of different
00:20:16
constituents within the distressed
00:20:17
the world of distressed debt we work
00:20:19
with debtors who are trying to deal with
00:20:21
banks
00:20:22
modify their loans see if they can
00:20:25
extract
00:20:26
um alternate scenarios with their
00:20:29
current borrowings and we have the
00:20:30
lenders who are dealing with
00:20:33
who are trying to work out what's this
00:20:35
loan really worth
00:20:36
what are my options do i take the keys
00:20:39
back
00:20:39
do i extend to pretend do i modify it
00:20:44
or do i sell that loan to somebody else
00:20:46
and make it somebody else's problem
00:20:48
or does the government come in and then
00:20:50
i'm dealing with the investors
00:20:52
as well um who are trying to work out
00:20:56
how they can play
00:20:57
effectively in this in this space and be
00:21:00
part of the solution
00:21:01
so you look at those three constituents
00:21:04
um and there's a lot of different you
00:21:08
can come in at different lenses
00:21:10
um interestingly enough you know we have
00:21:12
the benefit of working with different
00:21:14
clients
00:21:14
across that kind of cycle and provide
00:21:18
a lot of that uh you know perspective to
00:21:20
different clients
00:21:22
you know based on what we see in the
00:21:23
marketplace i would tell you
00:21:26
there's a lot of distress to go around
00:21:28
right now
00:21:30
and and my view is is that it is going
00:21:33
to take
00:21:34
a diligent period of time to work
00:21:36
through the distress
00:21:37
it's certainly encouraging that the the
00:21:40
capital markets
00:21:42
on the public side for public reits
00:21:46
and new pools of capital are being
00:21:47
raised that's a positive
00:21:49
it's a absolute positive right now that
00:21:52
the markets have been able to absorb
00:21:54
uh and over-subscribe a couple of recent
00:21:56
cmbs offerings
00:21:58
some of which are tough backed and some
00:22:00
of which are non-talf-backed
00:22:02
so you know i see those as two positive
00:22:05
signs
00:22:06
and we see that you know one or two
00:22:07
transactions have occurred
00:22:10
uh with with you know fdic-sponsored
00:22:13
deals
00:22:14
so you look in the world of distress and
00:22:16
you say
00:22:18
there are some positive signs um you
00:22:20
know we'll get through this
00:22:22
and it will result in a de-leveraging of
00:22:24
real estate
00:22:25
is also going to result in a shift if
00:22:27
you will
00:22:28
of of real estate wealth from
00:22:32
one set of hands to another set of hands
00:22:35
and there might be some folks who are on
00:22:38
both sides of the table
00:22:40
might be thanks for joining us my
00:22:52
pleasure
00:22:54
you
