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this podcast is brought to you by
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information America's government has
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failed America and the nation now faces
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Dreadful catastrophic consequences
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unless the government changes its ways
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says Wharton management Professor Larry
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rinc in his new book The mismanagement
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of America he writes the country is on
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an unstable burning platform of
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mismanagement Financial and fiscal
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irresponsibility ineffective
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intelligence gathering capabilities a
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destructive power structure and a host
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of other ominous and potentially
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dangerous problems to avoid its
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disastrous collapse major management
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changes and sound leadership are needed
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rinc lays out the changes that must
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occur and warns that there is no longer
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time for Americans to shrug their
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shoulders and dismiss government
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ineptitude as the inevitable result of
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politics thanks for joining us today
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Professor thank you you frame America as
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a failing Corporation why did you use
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that
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analogy that's a good question to start
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with I had done a lot of work over the
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years with corporations I've worked with
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a lot of global organizations and of
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course I was familiar with the corporate
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model I began looking at United States
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and I thought to myself this is like
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America Incorporated look at it it's
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huge it's over three and5 trillion
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dollars a year it's a big business it's
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Diversified it's in Defense Education
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media energy Banking and finance
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engineering science Transportation you
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name it Diversified large organization
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globally it acts like a business I mean
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it it hires people fires people has
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health care plans has retirement
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programs and so I started looking at it
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that way and said if I look at this
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organization as a large Global player
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trying to be efficient and effective run
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by top management run by I'm only
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focusing on top management White House
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and Congress let's see what we can say
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let's compare this organ gation to a
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large corporation to see how it's being
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managed and as you know most of my work
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in the past has been in management
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Strategic Management so I to me it was
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an interesting sort of challenge to
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relate what I know about business to
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America Incorporated in that analogy you
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come to the conclusion that the
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management we have isn't really doing
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the job for its shareholders or other
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stakeholders this is exactly right okay
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the shareholders the citizens taxpayers
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and so on uh overall it's the top
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management team is not performing some
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they're performing better for some than
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others as we know uh there's all sorts
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of data about income discrepancies in
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equities and so on so but overall no
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they're not performing very well at all
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you describe in your book the
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consequences that await us if the
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government doesn't change its ways and
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you describe those in a couple of
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different forms one of those is in
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fiscal matters you warned that we're
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facing a coming explosion of entitlement
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spending on things such as Social
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Security and Medicare as Baby Boomers
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prepare to retire can you describe that
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scenario and what kind of dramatic
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changes need to occur in order to avert
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that if you take a look at our country
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take a look at our debt for example
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we're at 9.5 trillion it's a a lot of
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money the debts growing at2 billion a
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day over $200,000 a second the debt is
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growing in the United States some
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amazing amount that's bad enough but the
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treasury itself has looked ahead and and
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talked about what I'll call a fiscal Gap
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they've looked ahead a decade or two or
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three and said given the entitlements
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that are coming up giving baby boomers
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uh growth coming into the market so to
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speak what is the fiscal Gap you know
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they projected at $63 trillion so if we
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have A1 trillion doll debt already with
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a $63
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trillion uh fiscal Gap what are we going
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to do about this we're not confronting
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the issue politicians on both sides of
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the aisle have ignored it it's been
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going on for a long time what do they do
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in the book I say for example they
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fiddle with deficits they fiddle while
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us Burns so to speak look at Social
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Security social security has been
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turning a profit and so what do we do
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with the profits from Social Security we
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take the profits we use it for existing
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budgets existing uh deficit reduction
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for example allak Clinton and some of
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the others but what do we do we then
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take IUS and put them in the Social
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Security trust fund and we call those
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IUS assets so we're putting debts into
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the trust fund calling them assets and
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saying we've got all these assets in
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Social Security no we don't we've got
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debt that someday is going to come and
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bite us on the lake we're going to have
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to pay for these things add in Medicare
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Medicaid take a look at all of the
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things we have and what are our top
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managers doing nothing they have the
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head in the sand they're not motivated
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to make changes and why you know it's
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some of it's obvious for example Social
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Security our top people don't worry
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about social security because they're
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not on Social Security the way they
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don't worry about health care I think
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people in Congress pay $35 a month for
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unlimited healthare they don't
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understand the problems of many
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Americans when it comes to healthcare to
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them they've got everything and they're
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ignoring the problem now if we don't
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take care of some of these things coming
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up soon if we don't bite the bullets
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soon if we don't worry about things like
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balance budgets uh constitutional
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amendments to curb spending we don't do
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these things we are going to find
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ourselves in a relatively short period
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of time in a major major problem that's
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not going to be reversed very easily
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other people have talked about this
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before in fact David Walker the
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controller of the currency has been
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traveling all over the country raising
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alarms about the coming fiscal problems
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that we're facing do you think it's
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possible in some way to get the
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government to recognize these problems
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that you're talking about I think we
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have to force them I don't know how uh
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but you know I guess what I'm saying is
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I'm hoping maybe against hope but I hope
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some of the politicians especially
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supposed new breed of politicians will
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make some changes I mentioned a uh
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balance budg amendment in a
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constitutional amendment we tried it
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with gram Rudman way back we tried there
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was some other one I forgot the name of
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it was a kind of fiscal control none of
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this has worked because we get around
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things they get around things with ear
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marks they get around things with with
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with spending I mean they attach ear
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marks in Congress to everything we are
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running 16,000 earmarks a year now
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attached to good bills these things are
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expensive they're not going anywhere so
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what do we do right here a
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constitutional amendment forcing a
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balanced budget I would eliminate all
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marks if something can't pass on its own
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merits as a bill it should not be
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attached to another bill I remember
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years ago Reagan Ronald Reagan vetoed a
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bill because it had a few hundred
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earmarks attached to it a transportation
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Bill one of the latest versions of the
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transportation bill I think 2006 had
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over 6,000 earmarks attached to the bill
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go one step further I know maybe I'm
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going too far a field but I just read
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something by our governor renell in
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Pennsylvania about how our bridges need
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work and how we all know what happened
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in uh Minnesota with the bridge collapse
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and so on here's another example since
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1970 when we passed that Highway
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Transportation Act we have had over 700
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billion doll supposedly dedicated for
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roads and bridges I think something like
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85% of that money those monies never
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reached Bridges and roads they went into
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senators and
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representatives uh earmarks private home
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uh based projects all of this is
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wasteful we just have to stop it no ear
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marks uh a balanced budget a
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constitutional amendment maybe change
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the tax code I know I'm getting the
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field but our tax code's a mess Bush
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came in saying he was going to reduce
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the tax code reduces his complexity in
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his first term he increased the tax code
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by over 10,000 Pages now again he's not
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alone other presidents have done the
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same thing why do we do that the greater
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the complexity the greater the number of
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loopholes the more we can hide stuff and
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so we just have to say let's revise the
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tax code make it simpler let's get away
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from all of these things that we're
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hiding so I like to think that our we
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have politicians who are going to wake
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up who are going to not be so short-term
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oriented and become more like managers
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thinking strategically long term that we
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can't create this debt and we can't
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leave it by the way this debt of course
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not only increases the cost of
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government it it crowds out private
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investment and so I'm worried about
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innovation and private investment in the
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country because more and more money is
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being taken up with the debt and with
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things like military spending it's
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burdening future Generations you know we
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we we just finished I think last year
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paying off the last 30-year bonds or
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bills for Vietnam and and you know here
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we go we're starting now of course to
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Iraq Afghanistan we're just picking up
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where we left off and so I think it's
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you know we're creating real problems
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trade imbalances I mean name it we've
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got all of this debt I mentioned the
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military I not against the military but
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when I look at the numbers as part of
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all of this I get
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scared the military budget's huge the
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online budget's huge and then we have
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all this offline uh you know Black Box
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stuff yeah where we add more things to
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the budget we just keep on adding to the
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I know we have to have a strong military
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but if I look at the military plus the
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interest on the national debt just those
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two things the military budget and the
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interest on the national debt I think of
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all of the tax dollars we're receiving I
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think 60 cents of it I'm sorry 40 cents
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of it goes to those two purposes we have
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60 cents left after the military and
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interest on the national debt no wonder
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we're losing out we can't afford am Trak
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we can't fix our roads we can't do so
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many things we can't support education
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because we're spending too much and of
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course not only do we have a
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military-industrial complex but a friend
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of mine just wired me emailed me and
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said we also have a military Golf
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Complex because the military runs 300
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golf courses this is so worldwide and
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and you know that's a big expense and I
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don't know where that fits into the
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defense scheme of things but we have to
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have those two 300 golf courses I guess
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well you want to have those Generals in
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a relaxed frame of mind all the time
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well that's the other thing if if the
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Specialists and e2s and threes and e4s
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and fives the enlisted men were using
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the golf courses maybe I'd feel a little
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better but I have a feeling that's not
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the case probably not probably not if if
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they're on the course they're caddies
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okay for the generals yeah a lot of that
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debt is held by Sovereign wealth funds
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and other foreign interests
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are you concerned about that well I
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think we should be concerned about it uh
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for example we have a lot of countries
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like China for example holding a lot of
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our debt now probably nothing bad will
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come from it but there's always the
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possibility for example we are now
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head-to-head with China and oil
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consumption I mean they are growing they
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are using more and more oil and if
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Supply stays roughly the same in the
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world or even uh less over the years in
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fact there's going to be a face-to-face
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head-to-head confrontation with China
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about who gets resources and they'll be
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fighting with us to see who could waste
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the most I guess because right now we're
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the biggest waste waster of resources
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well just look at that if they're
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holding a good chunk of our debt dollar
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denominated debt and we're fighting with
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them uh and if things happen in the
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world that we begin we're seeing now the
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Euro for example becoming stronger I
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know Europe recently is having some
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troubles but we know the Euro has grown
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amazingly so what
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if uh a lot of the countries start
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investing in Euro denominated death the
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dollar will go down if the dollar goes
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down
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a lot of these people holding dollar
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denominated debt will might want to get
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rid of some of that debt if they flood
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the market what will happen our dollars
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going to get hurt it's going to go down
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the tubes our interest rates are going
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to suffer we're going to have to raise
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interest rates in order to be attractive
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in the marketplace worldwide which means
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that inflation will probably go up and a
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lot of people will not be able to buy
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homes a lot of people will default on
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their credit card debt and will China do
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something like that political I hope not
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but in the history of the world it's
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happened that economic things overshadow
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and economic political things overshadow
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even Common Sense occasionally and so
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yes I do worry I I would like to see us
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to be a little bit more solvent in the
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world put it that way our return to the
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misery index only much worse than we've
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had before perhaps I I would think so
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and I I'm very concerned about that
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you've also raised concerns about the
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government's activity in the area of
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security Now terrorism is on the minds
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of many Americans and the government
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makes sure it stays there but you seem
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to think that the war on terror is not
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going very well well I have a concern
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here I I originally when I was looking
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at material for the book um didn't know
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much about the intelligence Community I
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picked up a couple of things I talked to
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some people and and and well I did some
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work for the intelligence Community
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years ago but on strategy organizational
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design that sort of thing so I had some
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interest well I started digging into
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things and I started looking at the
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management and organizational design of
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the intelligence Community to see if
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this could work to see if I could
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explain from a management point of view
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why we might be having troubles and I
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came up with you know some some notion I
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mean we're spending a lot of money I
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think it's 100 uh million dollars a day
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is it $100 million doar a day on on
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intelligence now we like to talk about
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our big intelligence the CIA uh FBI
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NSA but I started looking at this I
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started digging without a lot of trouble
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I found 64 different organizations
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involved in intelligence 4 every branch
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of service has its own every branch of
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service has its own there's all sorts of
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things I mean we turn around in the book
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I list them I can't there's so many of
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them I can't even remember half of them
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but we have so many of them and what do
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we find not only do we have too many
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agencies but we have divisive politics
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we don't have cooperation we have
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competition across these agencies for
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money these agencies don't share
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knowledge here's a quote a quote that
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came from a book of someone from someone
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who studied the CI he said something
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like the quote read we don't come to
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work asking what information can we
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share with our colleagues to solve
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problems we ask what information can we
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hoard keep away from others so that we
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could pursue our own goals translation
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we can keep our budget High we become
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the important agency and so on and so
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forth so we don't have 15 or 16 agencies
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we have 64 unclear responsibility no
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knowledge sharing and just look we
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created a zar what was it 2004 we
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created this act which said we need
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someone to coordinate we put a zar in
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charge of things but what did that mean
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if I look at these 64 organizations
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there are no solid lines all the lines
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are dotted from a management point of
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view what does that mean we have a zar
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who has no power he can appeal to people
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he can talk to people at the CIA and say
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please do this and they can say oh yes
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we'll think about it and then go and do
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what they want you're speaking of the
00:14:52
director of Homeland Security yes
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exactly it it's a powerless position and
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so when I look at all of these
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organizations pursuing their own goals
00:15:02
not sharing information when I look at
00:15:04
poort integration or coordination across
00:15:07
these agencies when I look at any
00:15:09
organization that would be this complex
00:15:11
with each agency doing its own thing I
00:15:14
call it when I looked at it I said the
00:15:16
intelligence Community is this is an
00:15:18
organization where people work alone
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together they don't like sharing so what
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consequences might that have well we
00:15:25
know what happened you know before 911
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we didn't know what was going on after
00:15:29
911 if we're not going to cooperate if
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we're going to have this complexity and
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we're not managing it well could you
00:15:36
know are we missing out on things that
00:15:38
are going on out there are we not
00:15:40
coordinating knowledge sufficiently I'd
00:15:42
like to think we are but I at least want
00:15:44
to raise a red flag I suggested in the
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book for example that reorganization
00:15:49
might be needed you know why not have
00:15:51
like again following a kind of corporate
00:15:54
logic if we have a corporation why not
00:15:56
break into like three groups foreign
00:15:59
intelligence domestic intelligence
00:16:00
Military Intelligence subsume all the
00:16:02
military under one with a head with
00:16:04
authority and have uh a domestic led by
00:16:07
the FBI have foreign led by the CIA and
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then start looking at these groups of
00:16:12
people with different agencies inside
00:16:14
collapsing agencies under the three and
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then worry about things like lateral
00:16:18
coordination sharing knowledge de
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devising ways to uh share information
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laterally laterally to coordinate across
00:16:27
these agencies I feel safer if we did
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that you say several times in the book
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that these problems are so serious that
00:16:33
we can no longer just shrug our
00:16:35
shoulders as Citizens and say well
00:16:37
that's just the way politics are there's
00:16:39
really not much we can do about it
00:16:40
because of the influence of lobbyists
00:16:42
and it's just the nature of the
00:16:44
political system but what can citizens
00:16:46
do to affect the kinds of changes you're
00:16:48
talking about here assuming those are
00:16:50
the kinds of changes that they want
00:16:52
that's a hard question it's an important
00:16:54
question but it's a difficult one
00:16:55
because sometimes be very Frank I'm very
00:16:58
pessimistic
00:17:00
uh citizens love their reality shows
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they love doing their things they don't
00:17:03
want to get get involved now lately how
00:17:06
do I say this nicely they've been
00:17:08
getting involved why because the gas of
00:17:10
price uh the price of gas has gone at
00:17:13
through the roof before when Supply was
00:17:15
plentiful gas was cheap no one
00:17:17
complained if we look at lobbyist
00:17:19
activity in our government mismanagement
00:17:21
for example in 1973 the Middle East cut
00:17:23
off all the oil people screamed and
00:17:25
shouted and and then all of a sudden
00:17:27
Supply came back and every politician I
00:17:30
think since has said we're going to
00:17:31
reduce oil dependency since 73 every
00:17:34
president-elect every Vice
00:17:35
president-elect everyone running for
00:17:37
congress says the same thing what's
00:17:38
changed nothing so finally people are
00:17:41
asking I think we've known about this
00:17:42
for decades nothing's been done what's
00:17:46
going to be done now so I hear at least
00:17:48
consumers screaming there actually I
00:17:51
read two days ago in a Wall Street
00:17:52
Journal they're writing letters to their
00:17:54
Congress people they're saying we have
00:17:56
to get out of this mess people people
00:17:59
because are getting hurt by the mortgage
00:18:00
crisis they are riding their Congress
00:18:03
people all I can think about is if there
00:18:06
is a silver lining maybe that's the
00:18:07
wrong word but from all of the turmoil
00:18:10
of late it's that we're getting people
00:18:12
involved that they are contacting
00:18:14
Washington if Washington and especially
00:18:17
with an election coming up if we get
00:18:18
some people in who for example go back
00:18:21
eliminate earmarks who demand balanced
00:18:23
budgets who reduce the power of
00:18:26
lobbyists with a real ethics Bill not
00:18:28
the one in 2007 which doesn't control
00:18:31
lobbyists at all if we did if we scream
00:18:35
for these things and eliminate the power
00:18:37
of the lobbyist and wrote our Congress
00:18:40
people and demand leadership finally I'd
00:18:43
like to think we might be able to make a
00:18:45
change we've seen it happen before in
00:18:47
our history we've seen it happen in
00:18:48
other countries who is it Bob Herbert is
00:18:51
that his first name Bob the New York
00:18:52
time yeah said what two years ago he
00:18:55
said the problem is the US is a nation
00:18:58
of nitwits
00:19:00
now there are times I believe that's
00:19:03
true quite frankly including me but I
00:19:05
think we're waking up I hope we're not
00:19:07
going to remain a nation of nitwits I
00:19:10
hope we're going to call our politicians
00:19:12
I hope we're going to exercise the right
00:19:14
to vote in this election coming up not
00:19:16
only for president and so on but you
00:19:19
know for our Congress people now having
00:19:22
said that I still worry about other
00:19:23
things for example the gerrymandering
00:19:25
laws the lobbyists you know if you look
00:19:28
at a man management from a management
00:19:30
point of view Lobby lobbyists are big
00:19:33
business there are 35,000 registered
00:19:35
lobbyists right now in K Street this I
00:19:37
call in the book what the pave Street of
00:19:39
gold 35,000 that's something like 65
00:19:42
lobbyists for every member of Congress
00:19:44
and they're holding money up they're
00:19:46
playing games and and and our Congress
00:19:48
people are succumbing to that money but
00:19:50
it's more than that there's something we
00:19:52
have to stop and also and that's what I
00:19:55
call in the book The revolving door the
00:19:58
half the people who leave public life
00:20:00
and take jobs in the private sector
00:20:03
become lobbyists so stop and think about
00:20:05
a a system of governance or system of
00:20:08
management that says on one side of the
00:20:10
aisle we have a lobbyist waving money on
00:20:12
the other side of the aisle a
00:20:13
congressman who wants that money whose
00:20:15
vanity is being fanned by that money wow
00:20:17
I'm important but also looks across the
00:20:20
aisle and said you know if I play my
00:20:21
cards right I might land that $400,000
00:20:24
job in a few years as a lobbyist well
00:20:28
what we should do then is ethics law has
00:20:31
to change the code has to change we've
00:20:33
got to reduce the power of lobbyists
00:20:35
take away their power we we might for
00:20:37
example focus more more on Public
00:20:40
Funding of general elections I know
00:20:42
we've been talking a little bit about
00:20:44
that but it's not happening you know
00:20:45
Obama backed out of it and other people
00:20:48
saying we should do it but we have to
00:20:49
get the power away from the lobbyists
00:20:51
from the big ones we have to have the
00:20:54
ethics Bill and in fact we have to well
00:20:57
Jerry mandering you know I read
00:20:59
somewhere what in 2004 the last big
00:21:03
election a
00:21:05
435 seats up in the House of
00:21:07
Representatives or something of the 435
00:21:10
I think 35 were contested the rest
00:21:12
because of jurry mandering were in any
00:21:14
contest so imagine people looking at
00:21:16
that why vote if the election is isoing
00:21:18
and so we have to make some other
00:21:20
changes I admit but I think with some of
00:21:23
these changes incrementally one at a
00:21:25
time focus on fiscal focus on the guest
00:21:29
problem focus on a host of things maybe
00:21:31
people will bounce back if a citizen is
00:21:34
concerned about the issues you rais here
00:21:37
about the state of Homeland Security
00:21:38
about the looming problem with
00:21:40
entitlements how should they be
00:21:41
preparing themselves for the coming
00:21:43
election we've often said that we need
00:21:45
to get more voter participation and
00:21:47
turnout but don't we have to have better
00:21:49
informed voters and what are the
00:21:51
responsibilities of a citizen who is
00:21:53
preparing to vote especially in light of
00:21:55
the upcoming November elections we can
00:21:57
answer the question by going we back to
00:21:58
Cicero and then Jefferson I mean
00:22:00
basically what did they say Cicero said
00:22:03
if Stu if citizens don't remain a breast
00:22:06
of the issues what will happen is
00:22:08
management oligarchy will form and
00:22:11
control the country and they will have
00:22:12
no power so Cicero first told us warned
00:22:14
up against the danger of being La AAS
00:22:17
agal Jefferson said the same thing you
00:22:19
know and all the founders so citizens
00:22:22
have a responsibility I've always felt
00:22:24
that people get the leadership they
00:22:26
deserve and if they want better than
00:22:29
what they have now if they want to avoid
00:22:30
some of the problems we're facing what
00:22:32
should they do their homework read up on
00:22:35
the issues challenge the candidates on
00:22:38
the issues I know that sounds almost TR
00:22:40
to say it but they have to get involved
00:22:42
they have to think about what the issues
00:22:43
are they just can't sit back and let
00:22:46
themselves be fooled by the normal TV
00:22:48
quick blurb uh sound
00:22:51
bite pardon me there has to be a kind of
00:22:54
Let's Ask hard questions let's look into
00:22:56
the positions on certain there are a lot
00:22:58
of things to look into right now Iraq
00:23:00
the military Afghanistan terrorism the
00:23:03
fiscal irresponsibility there's a lot of
00:23:05
things that they should be screaming
00:23:07
about to their Congress people
00:23:09
so I hope I'm not sounding too trite or
00:23:12
I hope it's not falling on deaf ears but
00:23:14
I'd like to see our citizens do more
00:23:15
homework get involved uh pursue the
00:23:19
tough questions and go with a a clear
00:23:21
head to these elections coming up in
00:23:23
November is the media doing its job no I
00:23:25
don't think so I I this I I'll probably
00:23:27
get in trouble for saying this I know I
00:23:29
don't think so I think I see a lot of
00:23:31
things in the media that are alarming uh
00:23:34
number one increased concentration you
00:23:36
have a fewer and fewer and fewer large
00:23:38
organizations controlling a lot of the
00:23:40
news people align themselves you know
00:23:42
for example what is it the fox
00:23:44
Republicans watch and CNN the Democrats
00:23:47
watching and we have all these blogs
00:23:48
someone once said to me with all these
00:23:51
internet blogs and whatever we have all
00:23:52
this news that people are well informed
00:23:54
and I said not really because the blogs
00:23:55
people are attracted to are those that
00:23:57
you know it's like preaching to the
00:23:59
choir they go to the blog that get that
00:24:02
gives them the point of view they want
00:24:04
and the blogs don't talk to each other
00:24:06
the people don't talk to each other it's
00:24:08
very
00:24:09
narrow I'm also very sad and you're
00:24:12
being an ex- newspaper man I can say
00:24:14
this and you would understand too many
00:24:16
of our newspapers are disappearing
00:24:17
people don't read one Beauty about
00:24:20
newspapers is that they normally present
00:24:23
normally especially your better
00:24:24
newspapers present both sides of a story
00:24:27
they'll have an editorial saying one
00:24:29
thing and they'll take opid p on another
00:24:32
side or there's a lot of stuff that
00:24:34
people can read on both sides and say
00:24:36
you know I like a and I like B but let's
00:24:38
put them together now it makes for an
00:24:40
intelligent consumer of information we
00:24:43
don't have that right now our newspapers
00:24:45
are disappearing the blogs are
00:24:47
increasing uh media is becoming
00:24:50
increasingly cons Consolidated and I'm
00:24:53
concerned about that uh what is the old
00:24:56
saying back uh
00:24:58
big brother is watching you and now I
00:25:01
think it's getting to be more I'm
00:25:02
getting nervous you are watching Big
00:25:04
Brother you are reading big brother you
00:25:06
are listening to Big Brother know Big
00:25:08
Brother's just not watching I'm afraid
00:25:10
that Big Brother's beginning to control
00:25:12
a little bit too much and I don't think
00:25:14
that consumers are doing enough to get
00:25:17
all sides of a story do you have a sense
00:25:19
that the time is right for this kind of
00:25:20
message perhaps you see some sort of
00:25:22
opportunity I think so I hope so you
00:25:25
know as I started to say before I called
00:25:26
it a silver lining maybe that's to too
00:25:28
strong but given all the problems we're
00:25:30
having given the price of gasoline given
00:25:32
the mortgage crisis given the fact that
00:25:34
people are getting hurt maybe this is
00:25:36
what we need for a kind of uh social
00:25:38
revolution of sorts that people are
00:25:40
going to scream and shout that they're
00:25:41
going to vote their conscience that
00:25:43
they're going to come along and demand
00:25:45
changes from their government now we
00:25:47
have to be careful here take yine you
00:25:50
know right now people are talking
00:25:52
politicians are talking guas holidays
00:25:55
and additional drilling now
00:25:58
well first of all I have some problem
00:26:00
with the drilling if we drill for
00:26:01
example in the Arctic National Refuge we
00:26:03
will incre in 10 years we will increase
00:26:07
uh our what our our use of gasoline from
00:26:10
our own sources by 3% hardly enough to
00:26:13
make a difference number one but number
00:26:15
two if we get enough of this increased
00:26:18
Supply uh by lowering the gas tax or
00:26:21
whatever uh by doing other things we're
00:26:23
just going to increase demand we are not
00:26:26
controlling demand so I would like to
00:26:27
see has now for example turn to people
00:26:29
and say this hurts gas prices are high
00:26:33
but look what's happening from gas
00:26:35
prices being high people are now buying
00:26:38
more efficient cars the demand side is
00:26:41
changing people are responding the way
00:26:43
they should respond maybe what we should
00:26:45
do is keep raise the gasoline tax allow
00:26:49
in on income tax for example truckers
00:26:51
and others to have deductions that's
00:26:52
their job but maybe there's a way to
00:26:55
control consumption and get people to
00:26:58
think more in terms of efficient use of
00:27:00
gasoline and resources and that would
00:27:02
force further our politicians to make
00:27:05
take some action maybe I'm too pie in
00:27:07
the sky but I'd like to think that
00:27:09
people are going to wake up and see the
00:27:10
problems here and want us to do
00:27:12
something about them well thanks so much
00:27:14
for joining us today it was my pleasure
00:27:16
thank you for giving me a forum to talk
00:27:17
about my new book I appreciate
00:27:19
[Music]
00:27:21
it for more information please visit
00:27:23
knowledge. won. up.edu
00:27:27
[Music]
