00:00:00
Bewildering, exhilarating, terrifying,
00:00:03
but it had to be doable. There There was
00:00:05
no alternative. I've been in board
00:00:06
situations [music] where there has
00:00:08
really been very little challenge, and
00:00:11
that is monumentally unhelpful.
00:00:13
Something awful happening to a student
00:00:15
on what is effectively my watch keeps me
00:00:18
awake.
00:00:19
>> Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm
00:00:21
Erica Ilias and Norris, and today I'm
00:00:23
joined by Professor Sally Wheeler, Vice
00:00:26
Chancellor of Birkbeck University of
00:00:28
London. Welcome to Grit in the
00:00:30
Boardroom, Sally.
00:00:31
>> Thank you.
00:00:31
>> Let's get into it. Sally, you've led
00:00:34
universities through extraordinary
00:00:36
challenges. When you think about
00:00:38
governance in higher education, what's
00:00:40
the moment that captures [music] its
00:00:42
reality for you?
00:00:44
>> I think my first ever
00:00:47
Board of Governors meeting at Birkbeck.
00:00:48
As Vice Chancellor, I'd been there
00:00:50
before, but I I went back after a period
00:00:52
of 20 years, and we were talking about
00:00:54
whether we were
00:00:55
in the terms [music] set by the Office
00:00:57
for Students a going concern or not.
00:01:01
Uh and that really did crystallize my
00:01:04
thinking, because although you get the
00:01:06
information before you start job, you
00:01:08
never get, as you said uh in your intro,
00:01:11
you never get quite the information you
00:01:14
need that makes you realize how against
00:01:17
the wall you are.
00:01:18
>> What was that like stepping in on the
00:01:20
kind of first meeting? What did What did
00:01:22
it feel like to be stepping in and then
00:01:24
to hear the information kind of land and
00:01:26
then kind of think, "Okay, well, what do
00:01:28
I What do I do now?"
00:01:29
>> Bewildering,
00:01:30
>> Mhm.
00:01:30
>> exhilarating,
00:01:32
but also a terrifying, but but it had to
00:01:36
be doable. There There was no
00:01:38
alternative but for it to be doable.
00:01:40
>> You obviously had a strong belief in in
00:01:42
the power of kind of turning that around
00:01:44
and the university itself.
00:01:45
>> University staff don't like it when you
00:01:49
refer to what they do, what they teach
00:01:51
on as products.
00:01:53
>> Yeah.
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>> But they are, essentially. And taking
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Birkbeck as a whole, I was convinced
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that its product was
00:02:02
saleable
00:02:03
that and that I could drive up student
00:02:05
numbers and drive up other activities to
00:02:08
bridge the gap. I wouldn't think that
00:02:10
about all HE institutions,
00:02:13
but I think there was enough uniqueness
00:02:15
there, there is enough new uniqueness
00:02:17
there to be able to turn it around.
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>> And you're in a better situation now
00:02:22
than you were back then?
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>> Yes, uh better as in there is a plan,
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there's a plan I think that will turn it
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around. All of these things come down to
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time. Do you have sufficient time to be
00:02:34
able to execute that plan?
00:02:37
In many worlds, you would just throw
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resources at that plan and you'd be able
00:02:41
to execute it more quickly, but of
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course, when you're up against it, you
00:02:45
can't. I think also
00:02:48
HE institutions are much less command
00:02:51
and control than corporations would be.
00:02:54
So, you can't just turn around and go,
00:02:56
"Oh, by the way, we're doing X from
00:02:59
tomorrow." and just filter that down.
00:03:01
You have to be able to socialize that
00:03:02
message, you have to be able to take
00:03:04
people with you.
00:03:05
>> What stood out to you in how the
00:03:07
leadership team handled that
00:03:09
uncertainty?
00:03:10
>> So, that's another thing that inspired
00:03:12
me to take it on. I think
00:03:14
I inherited a very good leadership team.
00:03:17
Uh I've lost a couple of people through
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natural attrition since then,
00:03:21
retirements, etc.,
00:03:23
but I've been able to replace them and
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one of the important things for me is
00:03:27
that
00:03:28
they slot into the team,
00:03:30
but they bring something different in
00:03:32
terms of how they think.
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Uh and I also know myself well enough to
00:03:37
know that I need people who say will say
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to me
00:03:41
without fear or favor, "You can't do
00:03:43
that. That's a crazy idea." or "That
00:03:45
won't work. Why don't we look at it like
00:03:47
this?"
00:03:48
>> So, the leadership team is a safe space
00:03:52
for people to challenge power
00:03:54
essentially.
00:03:55
>> Well, I would like to think it is. It
00:03:57
certainly feels like that. I hope they
00:03:59
would say the same. We're about to go
00:04:00
into a period of doing a 360 analysis
00:04:03
just to find out how we all fit
00:04:05
together.
00:04:06
But
00:04:07
yes, I have been challenged by people
00:04:09
and that's really good.
00:04:10
>> I think it's really important. I mean,
00:04:12
you know from kind of corporate law and
00:04:14
corporate governance that you
00:04:16
you teach that it's such a vital part of
00:04:20
leadership to be able to come with you
00:04:23
on the journey. It sounds like that's
00:04:24
something that you instill within the
00:04:26
team.
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>> Part of that journey is for them being
00:04:28
able to push back.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And just to say,
00:04:32
have you really thought that through?
00:04:33
Are we Is this really the way for Is
00:04:35
this really the thing to do?
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>> And do you feel that that experience in
00:04:41
any way shaped your
00:04:43
way of thinking about governance in
00:04:45
organizations, particularly higher
00:04:46
education?
00:04:47
>> I I've never been afraid to challenge. I
00:04:49
look back on my younger self. I think
00:04:51
sometimes I should have reined it in.
00:04:54
Um I think sometimes
00:04:56
people must have thought she's a pain.
00:04:58
>> But it's got you where you are today,
00:05:00
right?
00:05:01
>> Yes and no. I think luck luck plays an
00:05:05
enormous amount getting where you are.
00:05:07
Often there are choices, you make the
00:05:09
right choice, things roll out for you.
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You make the wrong choice, they come to
00:05:14
a juddering standstill.
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>> What would you say you would have done
00:05:17
differently then if you kind of spoke a
00:05:19
bit about um maybe reining it in a bit?
00:05:21
How would you have done that? What
00:05:22
advice would you give to others that
00:05:24
maybe feel like that?
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>> Uh keep emotion out of it.
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Always be considered.
00:05:29
And remember that people always remember
00:05:33
the worst bits about you.
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>> Wow, okay. You've had me thinking about
00:05:37
that now. That's interesting.
00:05:39
>> It's true, I think. If you're terribly
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emotional about things,
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uh if you're really really sharp and
00:05:44
confrontational about things, people
00:05:46
might remember the confrontation, but
00:05:48
they don't remember the substance of it,
00:05:50
and you've lost so you've lost them.
00:05:51
>> You've described graduation previously
00:05:54
as a symbol of hope. What does that How
00:05:56
do you know that?
00:05:57
>> Ah. What does that moment represent for
00:06:01
leaders?
00:06:02
>> I think
00:06:04
for both executive and non-executive
00:06:06
leaders of a university, graduation
00:06:08
week, we have 2 weeks in the year, is
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the best time ever. Students are
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delighted to have finished.
00:06:16
Everything now is in front of them.
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Everything that they have worked for for
00:06:20
the last however many years is in front
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of them. It's a massively exciting time.
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The families and friends who supported
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them are all there, and it's just time
00:06:31
for huge congratulations to them. It's
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the best week.
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>> And what do you think that that brings
00:06:37
to the leadership team and those that
00:06:39
work in academia?
00:06:40
>> I think it brings a feeling of a job
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well done.
00:06:44
That's That's the job you're there to
00:06:45
do, and for those people you have
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delivered.
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It is everyone's nightmare, something
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terrible happening to a student when you
00:06:53
should have intervened and didn't.
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Um yeah, I had a student last year who
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we were desperately trying to persuade
00:07:01
to go home to India. They were an
00:07:03
overstayer.
00:07:05
Um we had them in a hotel. We offered to
00:07:07
pay the flight. They wouldn't go home.
00:07:09
The authorities Have you ever tried to
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report anyone for overstaying? Don't
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bother.
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Um but they're not interested. Uh
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it was a really difficult situation.
00:07:19
There was nothing for her in the UK. She
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was going to end up in some awful hostel
00:07:23
or living on the streets. We had to get
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her away. I tried everything from
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getting a section, thinking that I the
00:07:29
mental health people might give me a bit
00:07:30
more help.
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Uh it was very very difficult.
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>> Hm, that sounds like
00:07:35
>> And that takes a toll on staff.
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>> Yeah.
00:07:38
>> Cuz they're desperate to get it right,
00:07:40
and the system just won't let them get
00:07:42
it right.
00:07:43
>> So, is that what keeps you awake at
00:07:44
night?
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>> Yes, something terrible happening to a
00:07:47
student where
00:07:49
perhaps we've intervened
00:07:51
and maybe that wasn't the right thing to
00:07:53
do, or we haven't been able to intervene
00:07:56
and we should have intervened.
00:07:58
So, something awful happening to a
00:08:00
student on what is effectively my watch
00:08:04
keeps me awake at night. I mean, there
00:08:05
are other things that keep me awake at
00:08:06
night, but but that is certainly core.
00:08:10
>> Yeah. And how does governance in higher
00:08:13
education differ from corporate
00:08:15
governance in uh perhaps a corporate?
00:08:18
And why do you think you talk quite a
00:08:21
bit about um risk management sitting at
00:08:23
the center of the survival of
00:08:24
universities? How do they kind of all
00:08:26
fit together?
00:08:27
>> My impression of corporations is that
00:08:30
certainly the large ones, the ones that
00:08:31
are on a turnover scale with
00:08:33
universities, are a little bit more
00:08:35
command and control. Universities
00:08:37
certainly aren't command and control.
00:08:39
They're they're quite flat hierarchies.
00:08:42
You often have people in really quite
00:08:43
senior leadership positions just for a
00:08:46
period of time and then they rotate back
00:08:48
to the ranks.
00:08:50
So, you don't see that in corporations,
00:08:51
so continuity is difficult.
00:08:54
Encouraging other people to both
00:08:57
see the risks and explain the risks
00:08:59
knowing that they will be back where
00:09:02
everyone sitting in front of them is now
00:09:04
in a couple of years' time can be quite
00:09:06
hard. Leadership positions it for that
00:09:09
reason in universities are not
00:09:11
necessarily that attractive.
00:09:13
So, it that it is difficult to get
00:09:15
people to take them on.
00:09:16
>> What would you say to someone thinking
00:09:19
about it? What what's the benefit in
00:09:21
doing it? Why have you done it?
00:09:22
>> Well, I like a challenge. I think it's
00:09:24
quite exciting.
00:09:26
I I like being able to do the deals in
00:09:29
inverted commas. Uh someone joked about
00:09:32
me the other day, although I don't think
00:09:34
they were joking really. They said,
00:09:35
"Also, Alice has to do the same thing
00:09:37
for the last 10 minutes. We better find
00:09:39
us something else to do in a minute.
00:09:41
So, I like the buzz
00:09:43
of it.
00:09:45
I think you can make a difference to the
00:09:46
lives of students. You can make a
00:09:48
difference to the lives of people in the
00:09:50
institutions if you if you step up and
00:09:53
do it.
00:09:54
>> Yeah, and what do you think the impact
00:09:55
is of someone in that sort of a
00:09:58
leadership role? What what can they hope
00:10:00
to bring?
00:10:01
>> They can they can set the culture. Is
00:10:03
the school, the department, the faculty
00:10:05
you run
00:10:07
is that a supportive place for people
00:10:08
developing careers? Is it a supportive
00:10:11
place for getting the best outcomes for
00:10:14
for students? Are you planning for the
00:10:16
future? Now, planning for the future in
00:10:18
universities
00:10:19
in some ways is quite difficult, but at
00:10:22
that level if you assume that nothing
00:10:24
there are going to be no external
00:10:25
shocks,
00:10:27
are you planning a viable future for
00:10:28
your subjects?
00:10:30
>> And how do you think that
00:10:32
governance creates silos in academia and
00:10:36
makes decision-making more complicated?
00:10:39
>> I think it creates silos because you
00:10:41
have distinct pillars. You have the way
00:10:43
you run your education and the way that
00:10:45
has to report. You have the way you run
00:10:47
research and the way that has to report.
00:10:49
Then you have various metrics for
00:10:51
student outcomes. You have the gender
00:10:55
pay gap. You have EDI initiatives. All
00:10:58
of those things can, if you're not very
00:11:00
careful, report just on vertical lines
00:11:03
and you miss the synergies that you can
00:11:05
create between them,
00:11:07
which
00:11:08
means that you might end up in a crisis
00:11:10
or you're missing an opportunity to
00:11:12
actually make something work better.
00:11:14
It's very easy, particularly in a large
00:11:16
institution, I think, that the first you
00:11:19
hear of something is almost when it's
00:11:21
too late to do something about it unless
00:11:23
you're very careful.
00:11:25
>> And how how can you help combat that?
00:11:28
>> I think
00:11:29
people naturally dislike matrix
00:11:32
management because it doesn't create
00:11:34
clear lines.
00:11:36
But universities are really only work on
00:11:39
matrix management and I think you have
00:11:40
to sell that to people very early on and
00:11:43
explain what it means.
00:11:45
I think it's difficult if you have
00:11:47
teams of people where
00:11:49
at a level
00:11:51
they don't respect and get on. And when
00:11:53
you have that, when you have suspicion,
00:11:55
one-upmanship, jealousy, etc.
00:11:57
Those personality traits make it very
00:12:00
difficult to avoid silos.
00:12:02
>> And how do you bring in the student
00:12:04
voice into the more senior kind of
00:12:06
discussions with leadership?
00:12:09
>> Some of that I think is down to you as
00:12:11
as a leader.
00:12:13
Most institutions will have students in
00:12:15
departmental meetings, faculty meetings.
00:12:18
So I meet with the students' union every
00:12:20
couple of weeks. In fact, I've just
00:12:21
taken on last year's student union
00:12:24
president into my office.
00:12:27
He
00:12:28
has various ambitions about things he
00:12:30
wants to do and we're trying to sort of
00:12:32
show him what all sort of aspects of the
00:12:34
business of HE look like. So I think you
00:12:37
have to maintain good relationships with
00:12:40
students. You have to be clear about
00:12:41
what is possible and you have to
00:12:43
encourage them to be ambitious and want
00:12:46
to be included. So there will be student
00:12:48
representatives on the board of
00:12:50
governors of most institutions. And it's
00:12:53
about making sure, I think, that they
00:12:55
feel involved, that they understand the
00:12:57
issues that are being discussed, even if
00:12:59
you have to put some time in with them
00:13:01
to explain those.
00:13:02
>> Sounds very similar to what some listed
00:13:06
companies kind of grapple with with
00:13:07
whether they have an employee on the
00:13:08
board. And there's always a lot of
00:13:10
questions around whether that's a good
00:13:12
idea or not, whether they can have an
00:13:14
equal voice or not. What are your kind
00:13:17
of thoughts from experience with higher
00:13:18
education?
00:13:19
>> So I think obviously on the board of a
00:13:21
corporation there are going to be legal
00:13:22
duties attached to them which make it
00:13:25
possibly
00:13:26
less attractive. You also got the role
00:13:28
of unions and you don't want to be
00:13:30
undermining those cuz
00:13:31
fundamentally they are a they are a good
00:13:33
thing. For for students, there has to be
00:13:36
an element of trust. If you say to them
00:13:38
this is confidential,
00:13:40
then they have to have enough trust in
00:13:42
you and respect for you as individuals
00:13:45
and an institution to keep that
00:13:47
confidential. And I've always been very
00:13:49
lucky.
00:13:49
>> Can you share an example of where
00:13:52
governance culture has shaped the
00:13:54
outcomes of a crisis?
00:13:56
>> Well, some some people might be
00:13:58
familiar with the University of Dundee
00:14:00
>> Mhm.
00:14:00
>> where [clears throat] there is an
00:14:02
ongoing financial crisis and they have
00:14:04
had a report publicly available from the
00:14:06
Scottish Funding Council where it seems
00:14:09
that the senior team was dysfunctional.
00:14:13
That for all sorts of reasons that there
00:14:15
were silos
00:14:16
that the board of governors or I think
00:14:19
they call it a court in Scotland didn't
00:14:21
seem to exercise very much challenge
00:14:23
function. So, they were receiving
00:14:25
management accounts, but they didn't
00:14:27
push back and ask why.
00:14:29
>> Right.
00:14:29
>> And so consequently, when it became
00:14:31
clear that they were running out of
00:14:33
money,
00:14:34
it was only it was possible to look back
00:14:36
and see the opportunities they had had
00:14:38
to intervene and had just not intervened
00:14:40
cuz they didn't have the information and
00:14:42
hadn't challenged why they hadn't got
00:14:44
it.
00:14:44
>> Do you think that comes down to
00:14:47
obviously you don't know all the facts,
00:14:48
but personalities that are sat in those
00:14:51
positions or is it something else? Could
00:14:53
it be more culture? I know you said you
00:14:54
have a very open culture.
00:14:55
>> I think it's partly culture. I think
00:14:58
it's partly the skill and experience
00:14:59
that board members bring.
00:15:02
Very few trustees, governors, members of
00:15:05
council, whatever you want to call them,
00:15:07
in HE are remunerated. So, they are
00:15:10
doing it to put something back. It
00:15:13
doesn't necessarily mean to say that
00:15:15
they bring with them
00:15:17
the time or the skills required to
00:15:20
oversee the running of a multi-million
00:15:22
pound business.
00:15:23
>> I presume many of them come from
00:15:24
academia.
00:15:25
>> I think that might depend on a leader as
00:15:27
to to what you want.
00:15:29
I don't have any current academics on
00:15:32
the board at
00:15:33
but but but my previous institution, the
00:15:35
Australian National University, that
00:15:37
that had
00:15:39
an external academic on it. You do have
00:15:41
staff members on on your board always.
00:15:44
I'm not sure how much having been an
00:15:46
academic
00:15:48
is that useful. You need people with
00:15:51
HR skills. You need people with audit
00:15:53
and finance skills. You need people with
00:15:56
risk management skills to be able to say
00:15:58
to you, "This is far too risky." Or
00:16:01
you're being far too conservative here.
00:16:03
>> Mhm.
00:16:04
>> So I mean quite candidly, one of the
00:16:05
issues that I've encountered in the last
00:16:08
18 months, my first 18 months at
00:16:10
Birkbeck, is the quality of our
00:16:11
forecasting.
00:16:13
Uh with governors quite rightly saying
00:16:15
to us,
00:16:16
"Your forecasting, you need to adjust
00:16:18
how you do this."
00:16:20
One of the crises you face every
00:16:22
September is the quality of your
00:16:24
forecasting has not prepared you for the
00:16:26
financial position you're going into.
00:16:28
And we've worked very hard on that.
00:16:30
>> Do you think that um there's a
00:16:33
perception maybe that going into being a
00:16:37
higher education leader
00:16:39
um is in some way
00:16:41
I don't know, maybe not as challenging
00:16:43
as a corporate and therefore you don't
00:16:45
have to deal with as many kind of
00:16:47
complex issues. Although from what
00:16:49
you're saying, there's some highly
00:16:50
complex issues and risk management, if
00:16:52
that's top of the agenda as to what
00:16:54
somebody needs to be good at, that's not
00:16:55
something you learn overnight. You can't
00:16:58
just turn up and be good at that.
00:17:00
>> So what I get from sort of friends
00:17:03
outside HE, family members sometimes, is
00:17:06
So students turn up in September.
00:17:09
They stay either for 3 years or 1 year.
00:17:11
They do a program with you. They get a
00:17:13
degree and leave. How hard can that be?
00:17:16
So I do think that that obviously in
00:17:19
that respect, it's not like running
00:17:20
Tesco's.
00:17:22
But, it is more complex than it looks
00:17:23
from the outside. There are lots of
00:17:25
external political shocks.
00:17:28
There are lots of potential economic
00:17:30
shocks that you might not know about.
00:17:33
And then there are simply changes in
00:17:35
student demand.
00:17:37
The external employment market always uh
00:17:40
sets part of the scene. That can change
00:17:43
very, very quickly, and that can affect
00:17:45
demand very quickly.
00:17:47
And unlike Tesco's,
00:17:49
if you have a lot of academics in
00:17:50
languages, and all of a sudden the
00:17:53
subject that takes off is environment
00:17:54
and sustainability,
00:17:56
you can't just move them across and ask
00:17:59
them to do that.
00:18:00
>> Do you find that some students then, as
00:18:02
well as the student demand being an
00:18:03
issue, it's the teachers on particular
00:18:06
courses that people want to join, that
00:18:09
be taught by particular academics, in
00:18:11
which case if those people leave, you
00:18:13
have a different you have a key person
00:18:14
key man um issue?
00:18:16
>> That's part certainly the case for
00:18:18
postgraduates.
00:18:20
It's increasingly
00:18:22
difficult to fill gaps where you have
00:18:24
downsized to fit a particular economic
00:18:27
situation
00:18:29
with staff that are not contracted to
00:18:31
you.
00:18:32
Simply because
00:18:34
quite rightly, they turn up, they teach
00:18:37
the hour that they're paid for, they do
00:18:39
the marking that they're paid for, but
00:18:41
you're not paying them to engage with
00:18:42
your wider systems, and they will be
00:18:44
working elsewhere. They don't have time
00:18:46
to do that. So, one of the issues then
00:18:49
is when they're asked questions and all
00:18:51
they have to say I just don't I simply
00:18:53
don't know. That is not a good feel for
00:18:55
students. Creates uncertainty for
00:18:57
students. Students don't like
00:18:59
uncertainty.
00:19:00
>> And I guess that's the same as having an
00:19:02
organization of any type that is run
00:19:04
largely by contractors. They don't
00:19:06
understand how things work in reality,
00:19:09
and maybe they don't create the same
00:19:11
level of culture cuz they don't they're
00:19:12
not around as much. They don't need to
00:19:14
contribute in quite the same way.
00:19:16
>> It's very difficult for I mean well, I
00:19:19
suppose for some hourly paid academics,
00:19:20
that's what they want. They might well
00:19:22
have a job elsewhere and they're just
00:19:23
topping up. But for quite a lot of
00:19:25
people, casualization is not a good
00:19:27
thing. Hard to build careers out of
00:19:29
casualization. Systems change, you're
00:19:31
not part of that change.
00:19:34
Uh so, you don't necessarily understand
00:19:35
what's going on. It's difficult to do
00:19:37
the sorts of things that we probably do,
00:19:39
credit cards, mortgages, that sort of
00:19:41
thing.
00:19:41
>> And universities are often said to
00:19:43
operate in a state of permanent cash
00:19:46
crisis. We've just been talking about
00:19:47
that. How does that shape the role of
00:19:50
governance?
00:19:50
>> I think it shapes it because you have to
00:19:52
constantly be looking at
00:19:55
not just uh cost control, but also what
00:19:58
you can
00:20:00
uh spend.
00:20:02
And you need to constantly keep
00:20:03
investing in facilities, constantly
00:20:06
looking at your backlog maintenance.
00:20:08
You've obviously got your statutory
00:20:10
duties around health and safe safety.
00:20:14
You've also got well-being for students.
00:20:16
There's a lot of support that students
00:20:18
and staff need outside of the classroom.
00:20:20
You've got to invest in those. But at
00:20:21
the same time, you've got to control
00:20:23
your costs.
00:20:24
So, you're constantly, it seems
00:20:26
it's almost like a game of chess. You're
00:20:28
constantly moving things around, looking
00:20:30
at
00:20:31
what you can automate or what you can
00:20:34
put through AI, not necessarily to to
00:20:36
remove people out of jobs, but so that
00:20:40
you can take some of the weight from
00:20:41
them so that they can major on other
00:20:43
things.
00:20:44
>> Mhm. Make things more efficient.
00:20:46
>> Yes.
00:20:47
>> How do boards and leaders balance that
00:20:49
reliance on tuition fees, international
00:20:52
students, and also that kind of
00:20:54
patchwork funding?
00:20:56
>> Well, I think now there is a general
00:20:57
acceptance from boards and leaders, it's
00:20:59
not enough.
00:21:02
And it's about how you can safely
00:21:04
assemble commercial income. How can you
00:21:07
come up
00:21:08
with a plan for things that are
00:21:10
sustainable? You need your board to be
00:21:14
across all of the risks.
00:21:16
And
00:21:18
we spend a lot of time, particularly in
00:21:20
light of the Dundee episode now,
00:21:23
thinking
00:21:24
have we have we given our governors
00:21:27
enough information
00:21:29
in order for them to be able to say yes
00:21:31
or no?
00:21:32
>> And just talking a little bit more about
00:21:33
the board setup,
00:21:36
how does that work in higher education?
00:21:39
Are they all external? I know you said
00:21:41
about other kind of members. How what's
00:21:44
the composition like?
00:21:45
>> The composition is is you have a
00:21:48
a majority of external members. You do
00:21:50
your normal board skills matrix to find
00:21:53
out what skills they have
00:21:55
and look to build in areas which you
00:21:57
think are crucial.
00:22:00
You have all your normal subcommittees,
00:22:02
so I have audit, finance, estates, um
00:22:05
digital and infrastructure.
00:22:07
>> And who from the university sits on the
00:22:11
board?
00:22:12
>> Well, I do.
00:22:13
Uh my
00:22:15
I call him CFO plus cuz I don't have a
00:22:18
COO.
00:22:19
So, he does.
00:22:21
On the main board of governors uh the
00:22:23
leadership team for other boards, so for
00:22:26
for the audit
00:22:27
uh for the audit board, we would invite
00:22:29
in then
00:22:31
um the deputy vice chancellor for
00:22:32
education or the deputy who who's ever
00:22:35
whoever's work is under scrutiny at that
00:22:37
particular time.
00:22:39
>> And do you have um
00:22:41
specific requirements for people to have
00:22:44
education background to be able to be on
00:22:46
on the board?
00:22:47
>> No, we don't. We we look to try and find
00:22:50
someone. Like all boards, you're looking
00:22:52
for that mix, but you don't want someone
00:22:54
who's necessarily an expert in
00:22:56
education. You want someone who's
00:22:59
interested in education and you're
00:23:01
looking for the same skills, ability to
00:23:03
assimilate large amounts of information
00:23:06
quickly and make a decision. So, you
00:23:09
want a board that's conservative but not
00:23:11
too conservative.
00:23:12
>> And it must be um as it is with most
00:23:15
people that are kind of the difference
00:23:16
between executive and non-executive
00:23:18
directors, obviously you're you sit in
00:23:20
an executive position.
00:23:21
It must be challenging sometimes to have
00:23:24
non-executive directors in there talking
00:23:26
to you, challenging you, um kind of that
00:23:28
don't [snorts]
00:23:30
have the lived experience that you do of
00:23:31
actually working in that in academia. Do
00:23:34
you find that or is that something you
00:23:36
haven't come across?
00:23:37
>> I've No, I've come round to really value
00:23:39
their challenge. That those often very
00:23:43
simple questions really make you think.
00:23:46
I've been in board situations where
00:23:48
there has really been very little
00:23:50
challenge.
00:23:51
And and that is monumentally unhelpful.
00:23:55
>> And then you everyone gets carried along
00:23:57
with the wave and
00:23:58
>> And everyone just assumes that because
00:23:59
they thought it was right at a
00:24:01
particular time, it continues to be the
00:24:04
right decision. No one interrogates it.
00:24:06
No one questions it.
00:24:08
And if it was the wrong decision, I've
00:24:10
been in situations where it's been
00:24:12
catastrophically wrong.
00:24:14
Makes for a very difficult situation.
00:24:17
>> And do you find um
00:24:19
that the
00:24:21
the kind of the non-academics or the
00:24:23
non-executives that are on the board
00:24:24
that they are supportive of you know the
00:24:28
way that you operate and the way that
00:24:29
you work. I know sometimes that can be a
00:24:31
a big challenge um on corporate boards.
00:24:34
>> I think the board that I currently have
00:24:36
at Birkbeck is is very supportive of of
00:24:39
what I'm trying to do. But I hear from
00:24:41
other VCs that they don't necessarily
00:24:43
think the same about their board.
00:24:47
I would feel confident um
00:24:49
speaking to the the chair of Birkbeck
00:24:51
governors about anything that I was
00:24:54
concerned about and know that they would
00:24:56
make time for me.
00:24:58
And I also feel confident that
00:25:01
they don't interfere unduly and cross
00:25:03
that line between essentially
00:25:06
stewardship and management, but I know
00:25:08
that is not true for everybody, for all
00:25:12
all VCs. And really the last thing you
00:25:14
want is a board member who's focusing on
00:25:17
one particular thing, driving one
00:25:19
particular agenda, which then becomes
00:25:21
bigger than Ben-Hur, crowds out other
00:25:24
things you should be looking at.
00:25:26
>> Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:27
And how do these pressures, in your
00:25:31
view, compared to kind of corporate
00:25:33
boards? Cuz this sounds all very similar
00:25:36
to me.
00:25:36
>> Well, I've never been on a corporate
00:25:38
board. I've been I've been a high school
00:25:40
secondary school governor.
00:25:41
Uh well, again, we didn't have any
00:25:43
money. I I would think that they are
00:25:45
pretty similar.
00:25:47
Also, we're all on 5-year contracts.
00:25:50
So, if things aren't going well, you
00:25:53
won't be looking at another contract.
00:25:55
And if things are not uh not are not
00:25:58
going really well,
00:26:00
it's not that big a deal to pay you off.
00:26:02
>> Mhm.
00:26:03
>> So, we used to see the average tenure of
00:26:05
VCs being 7 or 8 years. Now, it's down
00:26:08
to 4 years.
00:26:10
That's people finishing within 5 years,
00:26:12
people moving on to another institution
00:26:15
within within 5 years. I remember when I
00:26:18
first thought about looking for a VCs
00:26:20
job, a headhunter in Australia said to
00:26:23
me, "Well,
00:26:24
the thing is, there are always more
00:26:26
people looking for a VCs job than there
00:26:29
are VCs." I'm not sure that's true now.
00:26:32
>> And what's the tenure like for the
00:26:33
non-executives that are on the board?
00:26:36
>> They're So, all leadership team people
00:26:38
will be on 5-year contracts.
00:26:39
>> all are. Okay.
00:26:40
>> Yes. They They might have underlying
00:26:42
posts.
00:26:43
So, if it if they step down from that
00:26:45
post, they'll go back to being a
00:26:46
professor in
00:26:48
whatever.
00:26:49
Most people don't want to do that. They
00:26:51
might do it while they look for
00:26:53
something else.
00:26:54
But most VCs are just on a straight
00:26:56
5-year contract.
00:26:57
>> Mhm. Which essentially puts the
00:26:59
executives and the non-exec directors on
00:27:02
a equivalent level, which is not the
00:27:04
same as in corporate.
00:27:05
>> Right. Okay.
00:27:06
>> Um but that that's interesting.
00:27:08
Um because then everybody has the
00:27:10
potential renewal, whereas executives in
00:27:12
corporate tend to be on just an employed
00:27:15
contract, so they they're there
00:27:16
permanently until someone says that
00:27:18
they're not.
00:27:19
>> Well, that used to be the case for VCs,
00:27:21
but it changed a few years ago.
00:27:22
>> Universities are increasingly expected
00:27:25
to be providers of mental health and
00:27:28
well-being support as well as everything
00:27:30
else academic. How does that change the
00:27:32
role of governance?
00:27:34
>> It changes the role of governance in the
00:27:36
sense that we're not looking just at
00:27:38
processing students through to an
00:27:42
outcome.
00:27:43
It means we're looking at providing a
00:27:45
bigger range of services.
00:27:47
We're looking at employing different
00:27:49
people.
00:27:50
So, we'll employ people from counseling
00:27:52
backgrounds. We'll employ people from
00:27:54
social work backgrounds.
00:27:57
We have a different employment force
00:27:59
uh workforce.
00:28:01
And we need to be able to identify for
00:28:03
students areas of high risk as well.
00:28:06
So, um we have particular rules around
00:28:09
CCTV, around sort of a So, keeping
00:28:11
students safe and and well. So, we're
00:28:15
much more interested in student
00:28:17
outcomes. And by that I mean something
00:28:20
broader than just have they completed
00:28:22
their degree or not.
00:28:23
>> And where does governance draw that line
00:28:25
between pastoral care and academic
00:28:27
mission?
00:28:28
>> That's a really interesting question.
00:28:31
I think it's it's it is very difficult.
00:28:34
Um and I think it varies across
00:28:36
universities. If you're running a campus
00:28:39
university, where essentially what
00:28:41
you're offering is a boarding school
00:28:43
type experience to 18-year-olds,
00:28:47
I think your interventions and are very
00:28:49
different. They have parents, families,
00:28:52
a location that they've come from. The
00:28:54
vast majority of students in
00:28:55
non-residential universities are running
00:28:57
their own homes or living at home with
00:29:00
with their parents.
00:29:01
Um you need a a range of different
00:29:05
interventions there.
00:29:06
>> Are those sorts of conversations things
00:29:08
that the leadership team actively get
00:29:09
involved in or is it something that's
00:29:11
just dealt with by a sub-department?
00:29:13
>> No, they are things that we get involved
00:29:15
in. We need to know where students are
00:29:19
experiencing pressure.
00:29:21
You need to think about what how you set
00:29:23
your assessment cycles, what sort of
00:29:25
assessments, what sort of library
00:29:27
access, how you timetable things. All of
00:29:30
those things
00:29:32
they're designed as well for student for
00:29:34
student success, but they they're also
00:29:36
key well-being concerns. Are there
00:29:38
particular pressure points, things that
00:29:41
students are going to find difficult?
00:29:42
>> You've spoken about the skills gap
00:29:45
in university boards. What do you think
00:29:47
is missing today and why does it matter?
00:29:50
>> Amongst a lot of boards, there is
00:29:53
a risk appetite missing.
00:29:56
That either they don't challenge and so
00:30:00
executives take too much risk.
00:30:02
Or they themselves are too conservative
00:30:05
and constant constantly think that we'll
00:30:07
just recruit more domestic students or
00:30:09
more international students to our
00:30:11
campus and everything will be okay.
00:30:14
And of course
00:30:16
we'd all like to do that.
00:30:18
We can't all do that and so everything
00:30:19
won't all be okay.
00:30:21
>> And how do academic perspectives and
00:30:24
that kind of business expertise clash or
00:30:27
maybe complement each other when talking
00:30:29
about the board?
00:30:30
>> So I think it's quite interesting that
00:30:31
academics are usually appointed because
00:30:33
they've been good at thing A.
00:30:36
But of course when they come to sit on a
00:30:38
board, take on a
00:30:40
a leadership position at the top of the
00:30:42
organization, they'd probably never do
00:30:44
thing A again, and they're just expected
00:30:46
to pick up thing B and thing C.
00:30:50
I think universities have become better
00:30:53
at recognizing that people need
00:30:54
specialized management training just to
00:30:58
be able to process information, present
00:31:00
information, understand risk and
00:31:02
sustainability.
00:31:04
But we're not perfect at it, and we
00:31:06
certainly don't invest in it what the
00:31:08
private sector does, even though when
00:31:11
those things go wrong, they could be
00:31:13
catastrophic.
00:31:14
>> Are there lessons that you think that
00:31:16
corporate boards could potentially learn
00:31:18
from higher education? Obviously, one of
00:31:21
them I've learned today from speaking to
00:31:23
you is is that a tenure, a fixed tenure
00:31:25
on executives, because then they have
00:31:27
to,
00:31:28
you know, ship up or ship out,
00:31:30
essentially.
00:31:32
>> I think a fixed tenure is very good
00:31:35
in terms of how you process ideas.
00:31:40
If you stay too long, you you squash
00:31:43
other people's ideas. You also reject
00:31:45
ideas that you might have tried without
00:31:47
recognizing context has changed. As soon
00:31:50
as you do either of those things, it's
00:31:51
time you should know it's time to move
00:31:53
on. A 5-year deadline
00:31:56
really really pushes it for you. Makes
00:31:59
it absolutely clear
00:32:01
the time frame in which you have to
00:32:03
achieve results.
00:32:05
>> With With everyone essentially being up
00:32:08
for re-election, as the school of that,
00:32:11
that obviously creates a lot of turnover
00:32:14
on the board. How is that managed,
00:32:15
particularly if lots have joined at the
00:32:16
same time, then they'll leave at the
00:32:18
same time?
00:32:18
>> Well, you should you should set things
00:32:20
up so it rotates. So, at Birkbeck,
00:32:23
non-execs do periods of 3 years.
00:32:27
Uh they can renew, and we can renew with
00:32:30
a maximum of 9 years.
00:32:32
And for executives, it's 5 years
00:32:36
renewable, but regular performance
00:32:38
reviews should indicate the way in which
00:32:41
you're going. And academics get, just as
00:32:43
they would in corporate,
00:32:44
annual appraisals every year. So, it
00:32:46
shouldn't come as a It shouldn't come as
00:32:48
a surprise.
00:32:49
>> What's kind of the average tenure? Do
00:32:51
people tend to get reappointed after the
00:32:53
5 years if you're a VC? Is that kind of
00:32:55
normal?
00:32:56
>> It used to be. I think it's less normal
00:32:58
now. Partly, that's the pressure of the
00:33:00
job. People don't want to do it. It's
00:33:01
partly people who've done well moving on
00:33:03
for a bigger job.
00:33:05
Uh and it's partly boards thinking, we
00:33:08
need to try something else.
00:33:09
>> And if you look at the future, how do
00:33:11
you see the role of governance shaping
00:33:14
universities and society over the next
00:33:16
decade?
00:33:18
>> That's a very interesting question.
00:33:20
I think governance will become much more
00:33:24
intrusive than it currently is.
00:33:27
Not least because it's so much easier to
00:33:30
get information than it used to be. So,
00:33:32
if the board asks you, what is your
00:33:34
figure for
00:33:36
turnover of cleaners, for example, you
00:33:39
can just go and get it straight away.
00:33:41
What percentage of your students are
00:33:43
debtors after 6 months? Again, that's
00:33:45
easily available.
00:33:48
So, it's perfectly possible for
00:33:50
governors to become more informed. I
00:33:52
think also
00:33:54
in universities in particular, the
00:33:56
stakes are higher because the chances of
00:33:58
failure are so much higher. So, things
00:34:00
will have to become more
00:34:02
interventionist.
00:34:04
>> And looking at
00:34:07
AI, for instance, how do you think that
00:34:09
that might change how your board
00:34:12
operates into the future?
00:34:14
>> Well, we've already started doing all of
00:34:15
our board minutes through AI as a first
00:34:18
cut,
00:34:19
which frees up the governance team,
00:34:20
which is quite small, to do other
00:34:22
things. It means that I I think
00:34:26
recording of decisions, tabulating
00:34:28
decisions, distribution of what people
00:34:30
need to do for the next All of that
00:34:32
becomes so much easier.
00:34:35
Uh and that's quite exciting because you
00:34:37
can you can do more things with that.
00:34:39
>> It was great to understand a bit more
00:34:43
about higher education. Meeting her as a
00:34:45
person was fantastic. Um she had such a
00:34:48
warmth about her and was so open to
00:34:51
having candid conversations about some
00:34:53
of the struggles she's facing at the
00:34:54
moment within universities, um but also
00:34:57
beyond that looking at the future of
00:34:59
academia and higher education was really
00:35:02
insightful. That's it for this episode
00:35:04
of Grit in the Boardroom. Thanks to
00:35:06
Sally for sharing her story with honesty
00:35:08
and insight, and thank you for
00:35:10
listening. If you found this
00:35:11
conversation valuable, please follow the
00:35:13
show and share it with someone who leads
00:35:15
through complexity.
00:35:16
Until next time, stay thoughtful, stay
00:35:19
brave, and stay in the room.
00:35:22
>> [music]
