00:00:00
So, I called him and he's like, "Oh,
00:00:01
yeah, we need you to talk to Elon." And
00:00:02
I'm like, "Oh my god." Some of the
00:00:04
decisions you have to make about comp or
00:00:05
not, horrible, horrible decisions. It
00:00:07
was asymmetrical warfare because he was
00:00:09
so out of control. A good chair will
00:00:11
help [music] you make yourself heard.
00:00:13
But, the main thing is just to keep
00:00:14
listening and really, really, really try
00:00:16
and learn the business. We were in
00:00:18
Denver, we were in Paris trying to sell
00:00:20
the shares [music] and you have to make
00:00:21
sure that your business is robust enough
00:00:24
to do it.
00:00:26
Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm
00:00:28
Erica Elias and Norris. Today, I'm
00:00:31
joined by Dame Martha Lane Fox. Martha
00:00:34
co-founded lastminute.com through the
00:00:36
dot-com boom and crash. Helped set the
00:00:39
blueprint for the digital government
00:00:41
digital service, gov.uk. Founded dot
00:00:44
everyone to advance responsible
00:00:47
technology and has served as a
00:00:49
non-executive director on boards
00:00:51
including M&S, Twitter, and Chanel.
00:00:55
This conversation explores how boards
00:00:57
create real value, focusing on
00:01:00
innovation, decision-making, and
00:01:02
culture. Welcome to Grit in the
00:01:04
Boardroom, Martha. Thank you so much.
00:01:06
It's actually not just me. We have a
00:01:08
interloper on your podcast today.
00:01:10
>> [laughter]
00:01:10
>> You'll have to excuse me, there's two of
00:01:12
us. No problem at all. Let's get into
00:01:15
it. So,
00:01:17
if you could secretly sit on any FTSE
00:01:21
100 board today, uh which one would you
00:01:24
choose and why?
00:01:26
That's a really interesting question. I
00:01:29
I don't think this company would want
00:01:31
me, but I think I'd be very interested
00:01:32
to be in a pharmaceutical business right
00:01:34
now. Um so, you know, whether it was
00:01:37
Well, it's obviously got to be a
00:01:38
homegrown one, Glaxo. Uh that's the most
00:01:41
um
00:01:42
relevant one for for Britain, I suppose.
00:01:44
Uh I think that this is just such a
00:01:45
miraculous time of drug discovery and
00:01:48
the combination of AI application to
00:01:52
science with them what must be happening
00:01:55
internally as well at the same time. I
00:01:58
think that would be super fascinating.
00:02:00
Also huge global business, massive
00:02:02
consequence with how you distribute your
00:02:04
product, all of the stuff that um you
00:02:06
can imagine. So, yes, I think that so
00:02:08
would be the one. Although I'd be very
00:02:09
sad not to have worked with Emma.
00:02:12
Yeah, absolutely. Do you Do you think
00:02:14
that your knowledge, obviously you've um
00:02:18
you focused in a lot of digital
00:02:19
businesses, do you think that knowledge
00:02:21
from those type of businesses translates
00:02:23
well or perhaps it is just beneficial to
00:02:25
have a different perspective in
00:02:27
something like pharmaceutical or other
00:02:29
industries?
00:02:30
You know what? I think that after now so
00:02:33
long it's They
00:02:34
35 years
00:02:37
I've been doing this stuff. Uh I feel as
00:02:39
though um
00:02:41
it's not just about understanding the
00:02:43
digital world. I think for me it's about
00:02:45
having been through
00:02:46
moments of really accelerated change and
00:02:49
what that means for businesses. So, of
00:02:51
course at the minute we're talking about
00:02:53
AI and the
00:02:54
you know, profound platform shift that's
00:02:56
happening in companies and you know,
00:02:58
hopefully I'm useful my experiences of
00:02:59
understanding a little bit about that
00:03:01
world. But I think having grown up with
00:03:04
change as I hate this expression, but
00:03:07
change is the only constant in my
00:03:08
backdrop of my working life. I feel as
00:03:11
though you know, I've been on startup
00:03:12
boards, I've been on my own company
00:03:14
boards, I've taken public com- companies
00:03:16
public boards, I've been in private
00:03:17
boards, I've been in public private
00:03:19
boards like Channel 4, I've been on big
00:03:20
FTSE boards, I've been in you know,
00:03:22
crazy boards like Twitter and I you
00:03:24
know, and now I'm on Wood for Share with
00:03:25
and I'm on British Chanel, very
00:03:26
structured and structured again. So,
00:03:28
literally nothing phases me, I think and
00:03:31
I feel like I've seen a lot of complex
00:03:33
situations in those boardrooms either
00:03:35
because of personalities or because of
00:03:37
macro environment and hopefully I think
00:03:40
if you've been lucky enough to have that
00:03:42
experience it's those things that are
00:03:44
always translatable. And of course
00:03:46
trying to stay relevant with the world
00:03:48
as it's changing is another dimension to
00:03:49
that, but I think more fundamentally for
00:03:52
the
00:03:53
board members
00:03:54
I think just being able to be a bit of a
00:03:56
generalist and being able to see the big
00:03:59
picture, not
00:04:01
feel kind of stuck in the situation
00:04:04
where you feel like it's a crisis all
00:04:05
the time but see that wider view. I
00:04:07
think that's actually the biggest skill.
00:04:09
I think that's really interesting
00:04:10
because I do tend to find
00:04:13
people where or companies when they're
00:04:15
looking for non-executive directors,
00:04:16
they tend to go towards similar
00:04:20
industries to who they already have. So
00:04:22
if they're a product industry, they tend
00:04:23
to try and find product people. If
00:04:25
they're a service industry, they tend to
00:04:26
try and find service people. But maybe
00:04:28
it's worth mixing that up a bit from
00:04:30
what you're saying. Well, I think it's
00:04:32
it's both. I think
00:04:33
it's you have to be super clear if
00:04:35
you're finding a particular domain
00:04:37
expertise, you have to be super clear
00:04:39
that that person can also be outside of
00:04:41
their domain because no board member
00:04:43
should just be thinking all the time
00:04:45
about everything through the lens of I
00:04:46
don't know, cybersecurity. Very
00:04:48
important to sometimes to have that on
00:04:50
the board and to have that perspective
00:04:51
and to have that, you know, especially
00:04:53
now as there's alarm bells constantly
00:04:55
ringing. But it's not helpful if
00:04:58
everything is then always channeled
00:04:59
through that lens because boards are
00:05:01
beyond that, you know, you've got to be
00:05:02
able to sit on an audit committee or
00:05:03
comp committee. You've got to be able to
00:05:05
also think about changing CEO and
00:05:08
succession plans and the executive team.
00:05:10
So I think domain expertise is
00:05:13
invaluable but it can't be the only
00:05:15
thing and I think everybody's different
00:05:17
but
00:05:18
it's the combination of skills that are
00:05:20
what make a robust board.
00:05:23
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you've
00:05:25
been a founder, a chair, and also a
00:05:28
digital trailblazer
00:05:30
with lastminute.com.
00:05:32
What do you think is one thing that
00:05:33
boards consistently get wrong with
00:05:35
regards to innovation because that's
00:05:36
something that you've definitely driven
00:05:38
through your career?
00:05:40
Oh, I think it's incredibly hard. You
00:05:43
know, I think that's
00:05:45
innovation isn't something that sits
00:05:47
like over [snorts] here. It's a bit like
00:05:50
lots of planks of I think well how you
00:05:52
build a business now, you know, in my
00:05:54
opinion you can't have sustainability
00:05:55
sitting over there. You can't actually
00:05:58
we just talked about cybersecurity, you
00:05:59
can't have it sitting over there. Okay,
00:06:01
it's done because we have a person
00:06:02
worrying about innovation. I think that
00:06:04
truly innovative cultures are lived and
00:06:06
breathed through every single bit of it
00:06:08
and that like everything has to come
00:06:10
partly from the top. You've got to have
00:06:11
a CEO, you've got to have a board that
00:06:13
are actively showing that innovation is
00:06:16
they value and incentivize around.
00:06:18
You've then got to have you know, ways
00:06:20
and mechanisms that people in teams can
00:06:22
feel they can innovate either to fail or
00:06:25
not obviously ideally not but without
00:06:27
the massive consequence of failure
00:06:29
because that's what innovation obviously
00:06:30
often produces.
00:06:32
Um, so I think probably the the biggest
00:06:35
error if it's a if it's classifiable as
00:06:37
that is that it's seen as a separate
00:06:40
discipline as opposed to something
00:06:42
that's okay, if you want an innovative
00:06:43
culture it's got to be a cultural thing
00:06:46
right through the organization and you
00:06:48
have to make sure that your incentives
00:06:50
are aligned to that as a real point of
00:06:53
um,
00:06:53
you know, differentiation.
00:06:55
And what sort of companies would you
00:06:57
point to as being kind of good examples
00:07:00
maybe not in every scenario but good
00:07:02
examples in certain scenarios
00:07:04
that you would yeah, look at?
00:07:07
I think I think most businesses do
00:07:10
innovate or they don't survive. You
00:07:12
know, I think we can be quite hard on
00:07:14
corporates like oh, they do a bad job,
00:07:15
you know, my
00:07:17
airline seat is still rubbish or my
00:07:19
supermarket stuff but actually I think
00:07:20
if we think about it more deeply as a
00:07:23
consumer the process of innovation over
00:07:25
the last 20 years has been unbelievable.
00:07:28
It's been unbelievable. You know, we
00:07:29
expect things now just right there on
00:07:32
our smartphone devices. We expect to be
00:07:34
able to do everything in parallel. We
00:07:36
expect to go into a store and have this
00:07:38
perfect experience with like high
00:07:39
quality produce at good prices and we
00:07:41
can compare the market in a way we never
00:07:43
used to before. So,
00:07:45
I think, you know,
00:07:46
there's a lot of different strands to
00:07:48
it, but I think actually is particularly
00:07:50
in consumer businesses, we have seen
00:07:52
massive levels of innovation. Retail
00:07:54
obviously does always innovate because
00:07:56
otherwise, you know, they're not they're
00:07:57
not capturing the market in in the way
00:07:59
that they can.
00:08:01
But obviously the tech sector has been a
00:08:03
big
00:08:05
kind of disruptor into the macro
00:08:08
business climate over the last 40 50
00:08:10
years. And the culture in technology to
00:08:13
test things, to be constantly improving
00:08:16
and iterating just because you can,
00:08:18
because it's cheaper and the barriers to
00:08:19
entry are different, has I think created
00:08:22
a a different cultural kind of
00:08:24
culture sorry alongside perhaps a more
00:08:26
traditional corporate culture. So, um
00:08:28
it's not that I'm sitting here saying
00:08:29
every corporate is getting it right, but
00:08:31
I I do think that sometimes it's easy to
00:08:33
forget how much experience has changed
00:08:36
over the last 20 30 years.
00:08:39
Uh and perhaps, you know, one of the
00:08:41
issues that we have right now as a
00:08:44
society is that we are operating in a,
00:08:47
you know, 1850 operating model in
00:08:49
government and public services and we're
00:08:51
operating in sometimes a 2050 model of
00:08:54
our, you know, other user citizen
00:08:57
consumer experiences and that is such a
00:08:59
deep mismatch.
00:09:01
And why do you think that is?
00:09:03
Cuz I think it's much harder for the
00:09:05
public sector. I think public sector,
00:09:07
you know, I've I've done a lot of work
00:09:08
in the public sector where I helped
00:09:09
create the government digital and we
00:09:11
launched gov.uk,
00:09:13
um which was a a big step forward for
00:09:15
the government of the day and huge
00:09:17
enormous kudos to the team that enabled
00:09:18
that to happen.
00:09:20
And when I think about that experience,
00:09:22
you know, all the stars were aligned. We
00:09:23
had a prime minister who was absolutely
00:09:24
determined to do some bold digital
00:09:27
things. We had civil servants that uh we
00:09:29
got round to our
00:09:30
to to help us our way of thinking. An
00:09:33
amazing team that came from the
00:09:34
commercial sector to come and do some
00:09:36
public service. It was a big push though
00:09:38
and it needed that and I think that
00:09:39
quite often the public sector's
00:09:42
motivations and incentive structures are
00:09:44
just not aligned in the same way. You
00:09:46
know, you're not rewarded for
00:09:47
innovation, you're not rewarded actually
00:09:49
for thinking much about delivering the
00:09:50
past, but technology has changed that so
00:09:53
that's why I think right now we are at
00:09:55
this kind of delta where sometimes some
00:09:57
of the things and the speed and the
00:09:59
process that we expect in our the normal
00:10:02
other part of our lives, government just
00:10:03
hasn't caught up with yet. Mhm.
00:10:06
And you took
00:10:07
>> [snorts]
00:10:08
>> lastminute.com through the dot-com boom
00:10:11
and the crash. Yes. What The boom part I
00:10:13
remember only a little bit. The crash
00:10:15
part I remember really quite a lot.
00:10:17
>> [laughter]
00:10:18
>> What
00:10:19
what did that period of time or those
00:10:21
two periods of time, what did they teach
00:10:22
you about decision-making under extreme
00:10:25
uncertainty cuz I'm sure that there are
00:10:26
people listening and watching this that
00:10:29
are boards of directors, they are on
00:10:31
boards, they are CEOs and and you've
00:10:34
managed some very very big changes.
00:10:39
Yeah, I mean I think I would be really
00:10:41
lying if I said I could remember with
00:10:43
extreme clarity that period [laughter]
00:10:45
of time. I mean for a whole bunch of
00:10:47
reasons, some personal, some
00:10:48
professional. You know, after
00:10:49
lastminute.com I had a huge personal
00:10:52
accident and some of the things before
00:10:53
it are quite blurry just as a caveat.
00:10:56
But
00:10:56
>> you know, when you're 25 and then I was
00:10:58
29 when we took the business public,
00:11:00
Brent and I,
00:11:01
um
00:11:02
you know, you are only ever learning on
00:11:04
the fly because you know nothing. So we
00:11:06
were in this very strange very strange
00:11:09
market because landscape, perhaps a
00:11:12
better word, because not only were we
00:11:14
inventing things cuz no one had really
00:11:16
done a website where people were buying
00:11:17
this stuff. Amazon existed in the US,
00:11:19
there was a couple of people emerging
00:11:21
here, but really not very many. So we
00:11:23
were inventing stuff, but also we knew
00:11:25
nothing because we were very young and
00:11:27
the whole market was developing. So all
00:11:30
these layers were that really it was not
00:11:32
a kind of right or wrong situation. We
00:11:34
were just testing and trying to move on
00:11:35
quickly and trying to you know do the
00:11:37
right thing and stay very true to the
00:11:39
product focus. So I think if I think
00:11:41
back to how we tried to help keep
00:11:43
focused, it was you know, many things
00:11:46
but the things that stick in my mind are
00:11:48
such a clarity of purpose about what we
00:11:50
were building. You know, it was a
00:11:52
product both Brent and I wanted to use.
00:11:53
It came out of Brent's and and necessity
00:11:56
and
00:11:57
sorry, necessity to always organize
00:11:59
things at the last minute
00:12:00
in his late 20s. He was always trying to
00:12:02
get everything ready for the weekend and
00:12:04
was never anywhere help organize it. So
00:12:06
by having that very clear vision, that
00:12:08
helps. And then the second thing is just
00:12:10
really making sure we built the best
00:12:12
possible team we could around us.
00:12:14
Both um you know, amazingly bright young
00:12:17
incredible people but also people that
00:12:19
perhaps had done things in the sectors
00:12:21
we were trying to to to grow the
00:12:22
business in.
00:12:24
And how do you think you build that
00:12:25
great team? What what makes a great
00:12:27
team?
00:12:29
Right. Again, back to the clarity of
00:12:31
purpose and that being really
00:12:33
understood. You know, a really deep
00:12:35
shared understanding of the direction of
00:12:36
travel particularly in a startup. You
00:12:38
know, you have you can't say it looks
00:12:41
like that because you are building it.
00:12:43
So you have to really
00:12:45
have a very clear way of expressing the
00:12:47
story that you're telling to people that
00:12:48
might come and work with you. And I was
00:12:50
with a venture capitalist actually just
00:12:51
yesterday, brilliant British venture
00:12:53
capitalist Anne Glover, who said that as
00:12:55
a VC, she doesn't really ever just
00:12:58
invest in leaders in quotation marks.
00:13:01
She invests in people that people will
00:13:02
follow because leading is one thing but
00:13:04
getting people to follow you is another,
00:13:05
right? You can all say, "Right, we're
00:13:06
charging in that direction." But if no
00:13:07
one comes with you, that's not very
00:13:09
helpful. So I guess that um what Brent
00:13:11
and I always tried to do is make it feel
00:13:13
as though this was an exciting journey,
00:13:15
that the people working with us were
00:13:17
going to learn a ton. It was going to be
00:13:19
a ride. We were going to do an amazing
00:13:21
service for our customers and keep
00:13:22
reinforcing that all the time. So that's
00:13:24
the first thing in team. I think the
00:13:25
second thing in team is
00:13:27
in my opinion, didn't always do this
00:13:28
right at all, but this is where I think
00:13:30
people work well.
00:13:32
So, beyond that kind of overarching
00:13:34
vision, just a very clear set of things
00:13:36
that you are expected to deliver, and
00:13:38
then, frankly, to be left the F alone.
00:13:41
You know, you don't need to be
00:13:42
micromanaged if you have got that very
00:13:44
clear set of things around you, that
00:13:46
clear accountability, and you know what
00:13:48
your reward system is going to be. And I
00:13:50
think if those two pieces
00:13:53
are very clear, then you can have
00:13:55
confidence because it's very clear when
00:13:56
things haven't worked, and maybe the
00:13:58
person isn't in the right role, or maybe
00:13:59
they're in the wrong company, or
00:14:00
whatever the thing is. But then,
00:14:02
so easy to say that, and so incredibly
00:14:04
hard to do. Because in my experience,
00:14:07
and I don't know if it's the same with
00:14:08
you, Erica, you can think you've sold
00:14:10
somebody, "This is what I think you
00:14:11
should be doing, and these are the
00:14:12
things I want you to own." And they
00:14:14
might have a completely different take
00:14:15
on that, or they might not even have
00:14:17
heard it. Yes.
00:14:18
>> And you have to keep communicating it.
00:14:20
It's got to be something that is just
00:14:21
such a fundamental point of return all
00:14:24
the time, which is really boring as a
00:14:26
leader. Because it's really boring to
00:14:28
keep telling people, "Okay, just to be
00:14:29
clear, you are doing these three
00:14:31
things." And then to check back in on
00:14:32
those three things, and keep doing it.
00:14:34
So, you cannot have any room for kind of
00:14:36
um miscommunication in that. But then,
00:14:38
beyond that, if you get that bit right,
00:14:40
you really can leave good people alone,
00:14:41
and then they thrive, in my opinion.
00:14:43
Yeah. And looking at the other side, um
00:14:46
I actually I was chatting to somebody
00:14:47
yesterday about good teams. And one of
00:14:50
the things that they said, I asked them
00:14:52
what one of the most challenging things
00:14:54
was as a CEO. And I thought it would be
00:14:56
interesting to ask you that question. Um
00:14:59
they said that it was the people. And
00:15:01
they said that the hardest bit was the
00:15:02
hu- the human part of it, which was
00:15:04
sometimes the making people redundant,
00:15:07
firing people, whatever it might be.
00:15:09
Did you find the same?
00:15:11
Yes. Uh it's always horrible, and you
00:15:14
know, people are the inconsistent thing,
00:15:17
the variable thing, you know, the magic
00:15:19
thing and many times the way you have
00:15:21
the fun or the often, but also the thing
00:15:24
that's the hardest because we're people,
00:15:25
right? We're not just tick boxes and
00:15:27
we're not just ones and naughts.
00:15:29
So, thank god, but it is also a massive
00:15:32
massive headache very often. And what
00:15:34
I've perceived is that there are It's a
00:15:36
rare founder and I I'm really not sure I
00:15:38
was one of those people that is able to
00:15:41
be the visionary, get the product, drive
00:15:44
the teams, and build the culture. I
00:15:46
think that is a lot, right? You can
00:15:47
often have a brilliant CEO who's got a
00:15:49
very very clear vision of something and
00:15:51
might hire some fantastic people to help
00:15:52
do some of these other things around
00:15:54
them and has at least the self-awareness
00:15:55
not to try and do all the people parts
00:15:57
as well. I don't think I had that
00:15:58
self-awareness at 25. In fact, I think
00:16:01
now when I think back on it, at the time
00:16:02
I thought, "Oh, I'm quite good at this
00:16:03
culture people stuff." Now I look back
00:16:05
on it, I was 100% just fueling the
00:16:08
company with tequila and parties and
00:16:10
being ridiculous. And as you said, the
00:16:12
worst parts always, of course,
00:16:14
especially when you're building
00:16:15
something at speed
00:16:17
and everyone's very young or when you
00:16:18
have to get rid of people or move people
00:16:20
on or give people bad appraisals or do
00:16:22
all the stuff that is just the you know,
00:16:24
the bread and butter of business. And
00:16:27
you know, I can say with
00:16:28
you know, a couple of bad days at
00:16:29
lastminute.com, but one of the worst was
00:16:31
when I had to tell the customer service
00:16:33
team that we were outsourcing them to
00:16:35
India.
00:16:36
Uh and there were probably 100 people
00:16:38
and they were really really special
00:16:40
people. They'd worked with us since the
00:16:41
beginning and been on their bicycles
00:16:43
dropping tickets around London when
00:16:44
things had gone wrong and you know, just
00:16:47
been in the trenches with us and it was
00:16:49
horrible. It was really horrible cuz
00:16:50
even though it made
00:16:52
the business good business sense and
00:16:54
probably actually helped enable them to
00:16:56
go off and get better jobs, it was it
00:16:58
was brutal.
00:17:00
Yeah.
00:17:01
It's always about the people,
00:17:02
particularly if you're somebody that
00:17:04
cares.
00:17:05
Yeah. Um which isn't all leaders, I must
00:17:07
say, but I think some some of the best
00:17:10
are. Good ones do and I think
00:17:11
increasingly
00:17:13
you can't get away with not caring,
00:17:15
actually. I think that
00:17:17
uh, it's now
00:17:19
your EQ and your IQ are so much more,
00:17:22
um,
00:17:23
important than perhaps they've ever been
00:17:25
before because it's and it's
00:17:28
a much harder and a more ambiguous world
00:17:30
in many ways but therefore you need to
00:17:32
be able to express that as a leader.
00:17:34
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the
00:17:35
reasons I wanted to start this podcast
00:17:37
in the first place is to,
00:17:39
um, bring bring to light, um, how hard
00:17:42
it can be for leaders to to go through
00:17:45
some of these processes and as you say
00:17:47
about outsourcing to India, that's
00:17:49
something that an employee might might
00:17:51
just go, well, they didn't care about
00:17:52
me. What what what's the what's why did
00:17:54
this have to happen to me? They're just
00:17:56
sat in there at Ivory Tower and they're
00:17:59
just making that decision and they don't
00:18:00
even care about me and my livelihood and
00:18:02
my future. Um, You know, and the
00:18:04
equivalent now is, you know, people
00:18:05
aren't outsourcing to India so much
00:18:07
anymore but people are replacing
00:18:09
bits of teams with AI tools, right? So,
00:18:11
this is a very prescient discussion and
00:18:13
I was just with a business earlier today
00:18:15
where just talking about the the finance
00:18:17
function in that business and they're
00:18:18
not firing people but they're not hiring
00:18:20
any more people. And over the next 2
00:18:21
years will it shift and change that
00:18:23
team? Of course it will. And it's not
00:18:25
because the boss of that particular team
00:18:26
doesn't care, of course she does but
00:18:28
she's being judged on a set of metrics,
00:18:30
there's efficiencies in the team, you
00:18:32
know, there's just people's work
00:18:33
constantly changing and evolving. So, it
00:18:35
is really tough. It is really tough.
00:18:38
Yeah. And it's interesting that you
00:18:40
link,
00:18:42
um,
00:18:42
the kind of outsourcing with similar
00:18:44
sorts of ideas to AI.
00:18:47
Um, and I've I've heard that more than
00:18:49
once even just today,
00:18:51
um, on the kind of some of the
00:18:52
similarities of,
00:18:54
you know, some people when computers
00:18:57
were first introduced, they I've read
00:19:00
minutes and spoken to people that have
00:19:02
written minutes back in the day that
00:19:04
said, this is going to change the world.
00:19:06
Maybe we don't need too many computers
00:19:07
in the office because it's going to be a
00:19:09
real problem. And and it's really
00:19:11
interesting reading that now cuz you
00:19:13
think, "Wow, how how interesting?" And
00:19:16
no doubt in decades to come, we will
00:19:18
also look back and go, "Oh, I don't know
00:19:21
why they were worried about that." Or
00:19:23
they should have been even more worried
00:19:24
about it. Who knows? What's your take on
00:19:26
it?
00:19:27
I don't know. I think that uh
00:19:30
I have
00:19:31
I'm not prone to too much pessimism
00:19:33
generally in the world. I see it with
00:19:35
optimism cuz otherwise, frankly, what's
00:19:37
the point? And I uh but I do feel
00:19:41
a kind of generalized anxiety that
00:19:44
governments all over the world here as
00:19:46
well are not taking seriously the very,
00:19:48
very, very real shifts in the workforce.
00:19:52
And I don't know what that means work
00:19:54
looks like. I don't think anybody that
00:19:55
says they do is talking nonsense cuz who
00:19:57
the again, who the hell knows what the
00:19:58
next 5 years is going to look like, let
00:20:00
alone 15. But there will be massive
00:20:02
shifts, and the work will look
00:20:04
different, and it will look very
00:20:05
different for a whole bunch of people
00:20:06
and not the same people for whom often
00:20:09
worlds has changed most in the past, you
00:20:11
know, everyone's talked about how in the
00:20:13
past it was about the most kind of
00:20:15
entry-level jobs that got affected, and
00:20:17
now maybe it's going to be
00:20:18
mid-ranking jobs that are going to be
00:20:20
driven much more through technology,
00:20:22
whether you're a lawyer or whether
00:20:23
you're a accountant or whatever your
00:20:25
your backdrop might your your background
00:20:27
might be, sorry.
00:20:28
So I don't know what the answer is, but
00:20:30
I think we need to keep thinking about
00:20:31
it and having public conversation about
00:20:33
that and staying realistic that um
00:20:37
the headwinds of technology and the
00:20:39
climate crisis and you know, changing
00:20:42
demographics that that they're very
00:20:44
strong. They're very, very strong. Yeah,
00:20:46
absolutely. And it must have been
00:20:48
interesting to be so young IPO-ing a
00:20:53
company.
00:20:54
What's any advice that you would give to
00:20:57
Obviously, there's there's a lot of tech
00:20:59
kind of startup founders, whether
00:21:01
they're male or female.
00:21:02
And just kind of looking at how that
00:21:04
landscape looks, any kind of ideas that
00:21:07
you might give. I mean, I think
00:21:10
at the right point in time with the
00:21:12
right support and a solid business base,
00:21:14
going public is an extraordinary
00:21:16
experience.
00:21:17
I don't know if we had that at
00:21:19
lastminute.com. We were very small. We
00:21:21
were pushed to go public through this
00:21:22
insane kind of reputation and I don't
00:21:25
know whether it was the right decision
00:21:26
or if we would take it now. It was the
00:21:28
right decision in that we
00:21:29
got 100 million in the bank and Brent
00:21:31
says, you know, that was the best
00:21:32
defense to but Christmas growth or not.
00:21:35
But it was also brutal because it was a
00:21:36
week before the dot-com boom bust and
00:21:39
our share price collapsed and that's a
00:21:41
tough thing to navigate as a young pair
00:21:44
of founders with a young team who all
00:21:45
thought they might be gazillionaires and
00:21:47
we're just not going to be.
00:21:49
So, it was a mixed bag for us although
00:21:51
ultimately it'll be bonkers for me to
00:21:53
suggest it did anything other than give
00:21:54
us the cash piles and enable our
00:21:56
survival.
00:21:57
In terms of the So, I should start with
00:21:59
that because I think there's a tension
00:22:01
always in a startup that's particularly
00:22:02
got funding from a venture capital or,
00:22:05
you know, seed funding in some way to
00:22:07
have this exit. You people need a moment
00:22:09
for the realization of their profit,
00:22:10
right?
00:22:11
And that can sometimes be a real tension
00:22:13
because you can have a business that
00:22:14
might not be right to do it yet, might
00:22:16
not be big enough, might not be, you
00:22:18
know, the right business but there's
00:22:19
that internal tension. So, then you
00:22:20
might need to think about other exits
00:22:22
whether it's an acquisition or other
00:22:23
other mechanisms.
00:22:25
But the actual process of going public
00:22:26
is an extraordinary experience to go
00:22:28
through as a as a
00:22:30
um CEO, co-founder, founder
00:22:32
because
00:22:33
it it's really something that's hard to
00:22:35
describe unless you've been through it.
00:22:37
It's like a It's a job for 6 months or
00:22:40
so. You have to go and sell very, very
00:22:42
consistently all the time to different
00:22:45
funds that might believe in your
00:22:47
business. We went all over the world to
00:22:48
do that. We flew around in Mariah
00:22:50
Carey's jet, very fancy. Um
00:22:52
>> Wow.
00:22:53
>> [laughter]
00:22:53
>> But but you go into this kind of zone
00:22:55
where you sort of in a weird way leave
00:22:57
the business behind a bit. So, you have
00:22:59
to be sure that you've got somebody that
00:23:00
is still making sure your business is
00:23:02
working and money. Um, and we, you know,
00:23:05
we were in Denver, we were in Paris, we
00:23:08
were in, uh, obviously in London, we
00:23:10
were all over the place trying to sell
00:23:11
the shares. And so,
00:23:13
that's that's the main thing is just to
00:23:15
think about focus, how you're going to
00:23:16
do it, how you're going to cope with it,
00:23:18
what the storytelling and all that's
00:23:19
going to be. And at the same time, you
00:23:22
have to make sure that your business is
00:23:24
robust enough to do it, but also has
00:23:26
been set up ready for it. Because when
00:23:28
you go public, boom, that's it. Have you
00:23:29
got an audit committee? Have you got a
00:23:31
remuneration committee? Have you got the
00:23:33
right number of board directors? Have
00:23:34
you got some VCs off the board and some
00:23:36
new into um, independent directors in?
00:23:39
So, there's always things that you have
00:23:40
to kind of think about in the run up to
00:23:42
it, quite apart from the actual quite
00:23:44
grueling process of of all the sales to
00:23:46
get to the point of the IPO.
00:23:49
Yeah, no, you're absolutely correct. All
00:23:51
the all the kind of pre-setup is almost
00:23:54
expected at the point that you're
00:23:56
looking for that investment. And if you
00:23:58
haven't done it already, even though
00:24:00
you don't really need it if you don't
00:24:01
get the investment, is is that pre-work.
00:24:04
It's really important. Yeah.
00:24:06
Yeah. Do you um, so when you exited
00:24:10
lastminute.com through the IPO,
00:24:13
is there anything that you would
00:24:17
kind of look back now and wish somebody
00:24:19
had told you that would have made that
00:24:21
process less painful?
00:24:23
I mean, I think
00:24:27
it's hard not to be very personal at
00:24:28
this point because it was such an
00:24:30
exceptional time. And it's quite hard to
00:24:33
you know, this this nearly 25 years ago,
00:24:36
right? So,
00:24:37
not quite nearly actually. That's a
00:24:39
long, long time, especially in the tech
00:24:41
landscape. Things are very different
00:24:43
now. I think that um, I wish we'd been a
00:24:46
bit less naive about
00:24:48
what funds do, which is their job, but
00:24:50
it can feel pretty brutal when you're in
00:24:52
it, which is say, "Yeah, we're going to
00:24:53
buy a bunch of your stock. We'd love to
00:24:54
be long-term holders." I can think of
00:24:56
two funds that did that. They looked us
00:24:58
in the eye and they said, "We'll be
00:24:59
really long-term holders." And then on
00:25:00
the day of the IPO, they flipped our
00:25:02
stock, which meant they got the bump,
00:25:04
obviously, of that uplift in the share
00:25:06
price that went from, I can't remember,
00:25:07
£3.75 to £5.25, let's say, and then
00:25:11
helped in the collapse of that share
00:25:12
price. So, I think if I'd been more on
00:25:15
it and Brent had been more on it and
00:25:17
we'd understood more, we might have had
00:25:18
a bit more clout to be able to build our
00:25:21
cap table in a bit more an effective,
00:25:23
long-lasting way. That's one thing. Mhm.
00:25:25
And then also think um that as I was
00:25:28
then a young founder, going public is a
00:25:30
public moment, you know, to go in
00:25:32
public. And although it would be
00:25:33
different for founders now, I hope,
00:25:35
because it would be less unusual,
00:25:37
you know, I personally had a massive
00:25:39
amount of attention on me.
00:25:41
Uh huge amount of PR. And I think about
00:25:43
this a lot because if it was the age of
00:25:44
social media, I think it could have been
00:25:46
just completely overwhelming. It was
00:25:48
pretty bad then. I got
00:25:49
upwards of 100 letters calling me a
00:25:51
excuse me for my language,
00:25:53
because the share price share price had
00:25:55
collapsed, right? But imagine if that
00:25:57
was the age of social media, what I
00:25:58
might have had online. And you could
00:26:00
argue I put my head above the parapet. I
00:26:02
we used, you know, me as an idea to
00:26:05
build the brand of the company. And I
00:26:07
was a young woman and all that stuff. It
00:26:08
was terribly unfair. It was Brent's idea
00:26:09
of the company. And he'd get cut out of
00:26:11
photos in the press and so for just this
00:26:13
like young woman doing her thing. So,
00:26:15
you could argue I I'd done that to build
00:26:16
the business, but I think it was much
00:26:19
tougher than I had expected when the
00:26:21
um stock price began to fall. And I
00:26:23
personally got a lot of um um
00:26:26
thrown at me. So, I think being prepared
00:26:29
as a founder that you are now public and
00:26:31
your role is very different. You are in
00:26:33
a quarterly reporting cycle. You do have
00:26:36
to behave in a different way as a
00:26:37
company. You can't tell everybody
00:26:39
everything internally anymore. You need
00:26:41
It's It's different. It is just
00:26:43
different. And not always worse, you
00:26:44
know, it's a growth growth moment, but
00:26:47
be aware.
00:26:49
>> [snorts]
00:26:49
>> Yeah, that's really interesting. And
00:26:51
that inflection moment of
00:26:54
of that kind of
00:26:56
there's the media tend to like somebody
00:26:58
to dislike, and they tend to like you
00:27:01
for a bit and then dislike you, and that
00:27:04
switch is is interesting. It's the same
00:27:06
with potential like celebrities and the
00:27:08
like, but essentially somebody that
00:27:10
builds a business doesn't do it
00:27:11
necessarily to become a celebrity and to
00:27:13
put themselves in that situation. So,
00:27:15
that must have been really really hard,
00:27:18
and I know from the CEO that I spoke
00:27:21
Yeah, the CEO I spoke to only a couple
00:27:24
of days ago said to me that even some
00:27:26
family and friends were a little like,
00:27:30
"Ooh, look what I've read here, and is
00:27:31
this actually right?" And, you know, all
00:27:33
this sort of rubbish that gets stirred
00:27:36
up and started creating ripples beyond
00:27:39
just the just the business side of it.
00:27:42
So, then it was family life. Yeah,
00:27:44
that's interesting. I I don't remember
00:27:46
that so much, but it you know, it
00:27:49
the age of
00:27:51
What am I trying to say? The age of men
00:27:53
of kind of the excitement around the dot
00:27:54
com boom and then the bust was pretty
00:27:55
intense, but right now it is just as bad
00:27:58
for CEOs, right? You know, a little bit
00:28:00
of something on social media or a bit of
00:28:01
a knock on LinkedIn or something that's
00:28:04
bubbling in the employee base. It There
00:28:06
are a lot different dimensions to manage
00:28:08
as you become more public, and it
00:28:09
doesn't happen slowly. It happens boom,
00:28:11
just like that. You know, you're a
00:28:12
private company on a Thursday and you're
00:28:13
a public company on a Friday, and your
00:28:15
life has changed, and you're in the
00:28:17
public eye, and everyone knows kind of
00:28:18
nominally what you're worth as well.
00:28:20
That's another feeling because
00:28:23
I even though we, you know, I owned like
00:28:26
2% of the company by the time we went
00:28:27
public, it was still worth about 10
00:28:29
million quid, and there it was very
00:28:30
visibly and publicly, and that's a whole
00:28:32
other strange feeling, too. So, there's
00:28:34
a lot of different dimensions, none of
00:28:36
which is to complain about all of that.
00:28:38
You know, that is what you do. You put
00:28:39
yourself out there, but I just think as
00:28:41
a young founder, I wish I'd been a bit
00:28:44
less
00:28:45
perhaps naive about some of the
00:28:46
consequences of all of that. And I think
00:28:50
now it's just as intense. So it's worth
00:28:53
being aware of that as well as as
00:28:55
founders now.
00:28:56
Yeah, absolutely. And you've you've
00:28:59
obviously you now hold non-exec director
00:29:02
positions.
00:29:03
So you've moved away from that kind of
00:29:05
entrepreneur founder CEO space into the
00:29:08
non-exec director space.
00:29:10
As
00:29:11
as a kind of non-exec director [snorts]
00:29:13
>> however forgotten my karaoke business.
00:29:15
It's okay.
00:29:16
I [laughter] did start a karaoke
00:29:17
business. Lucky lucky voice.
00:29:20
Yes, I have overlooked that one. Well,
00:29:22
there you go. We've got six venues
00:29:24
around the country. I don't run it
00:29:25
anymore, but I did found it. So I
00:29:27
haven't completely moved away from crazy
00:29:28
ideas. So sorry to interrupt. No,
00:29:32
absolutely. No, that's great.
00:29:34
Um yes, as a as a non-exec director,
00:29:37
what do you think is one of the most
00:29:39
useful questions that can be asked of
00:29:42
your CEO? Now you're on the other side
00:29:46
of it.
00:29:48
Yeah, I mean it does depend on the
00:29:50
moment in time. Of course.
00:29:52
>> So you know, it's very different if
00:29:53
you're talking to a first-time beginner
00:29:56
startup founder to if you're doing a
00:29:57
scale-up founder to if you're doing to a
00:30:00
you know, a CEO of
00:30:02
like either a big scale business or
00:30:04
about to be public or public company. So
00:30:06
you know, it is very different and
00:30:08
I think that's part of it. It's to me
00:30:10
really listening to the CEO. I think
00:30:12
that one of the mistakes that sometimes
00:30:14
board members make is that they think
00:30:15
they're there to somehow catch out the
00:30:18
executives or the team. That somehow
00:30:20
they've done their job really well if
00:30:21
somebody's got a bit embarrassed in the
00:30:23
board meeting. Yeah.
00:30:24
>> [laughter]
00:30:25
>> It's such crap. It really is. If I
00:30:27
That's not your job. Your job is to pick
00:30:30
the CEO, get behind them, and then if
00:30:32
you don't like them, get rid of the CEO.
00:30:33
Don't keep calling out people. That's
00:30:35
not helpful. And with the executives, I
00:30:37
have the same pet peeve in a way. When
00:30:39
they're in the room, challenge them of
00:30:41
course, ask questions, get form an
00:30:42
opinion, and then give that opinion to
00:30:44
the CEO, their boss. You're not their
00:30:46
boss. So, I just carry out that at the
00:30:48
beginning because I think sometimes
00:30:49
people always think, well, I've got to
00:30:51
do a good job in my board meeting
00:30:52
because I got, you know, got Roger on
00:30:54
the back foot. It's like, no, no, no,
00:30:56
no, you don't want to be doing that. So,
00:30:58
in my opinion, I think questions that
00:31:01
people don't ask CEOs enough are things
00:31:04
that perhaps feel a little bit more
00:31:06
adjacent. Of course, you want to
00:31:07
understand how they're thinking about
00:31:08
the next 3 years, but how are you
00:31:10
feeling about the team? And what's
00:31:12
worrying you about the people in the
00:31:14
team at the minute? Or, you know, what's
00:31:16
keeping you awake at night? What's your
00:31:18
top priority in the next quarter and how
00:31:19
can we help you get there? You know, is
00:31:22
there anything we can do to make, you
00:31:24
know, chances of success more likely?
00:31:27
And I think, you know, trying to get
00:31:28
into their head, it's really freaking
00:31:30
lonely being a CEO. And sometimes the
00:31:32
board or the chair or people sort of
00:31:34
their peer group sometimes possibly are
00:31:35
the only people you can kind of share
00:31:36
that space with. So, that doesn't mean
00:31:39
you shouldn't have tough conversations.
00:31:40
Doesn't mean you shouldn't tell them
00:31:41
when you think things might not be going
00:31:42
in the right direction, but I would
00:31:44
always start from a point of view of
00:31:45
like trying to understand what they're
00:31:47
thinking about and what their anxieties
00:31:49
are. Um, and then start from there.
00:31:53
Yeah, I think that's great. Within a
00:31:55
within a the time scale of a board
00:31:58
meeting, and also given the fact that
00:32:01
it's supposed to be more strategic than
00:32:02
operational, there's only so much
00:32:03
information that a non-exec director or
00:32:05
chair can pull out of the executive. And
00:32:08
so, therefore, it is, as you say, a
00:32:10
matter of working out where their
00:32:12
where their pain points are. Um, and as
00:32:15
you say, encouraging and supporting,
00:32:17
assuming that obviously things are
00:32:19
traveling in the right direction. And I
00:32:20
think you're absolutely right. I have
00:32:22
seen way too many board meetings where
00:32:25
people have almost point scored, whether
00:32:28
it's the CEO with some of their own
00:32:29
executive team that might be nipping at
00:32:32
their heels and going, well, I'm going
00:32:34
to put them down because last board
00:32:36
meeting they said, oh,
00:32:37
are they your success Are they your
00:32:38
successor?" And they just don't The CEO
00:32:41
doesn't want to hear that. And then they
00:32:42
had The next time they just make them
00:32:44
look really silly by allowing them to be
00:32:46
under prepared. It does not work very
00:32:50
well. And the best non-exec directors
00:32:52
and chairs after meetings have even come
00:32:55
to me and just said, "Wow, that was
00:32:57
brutal and completely unnecessary." And
00:32:59
if it does anything, it just says, "What
00:33:01
is the culture of this business actually
00:33:03
like if someone The CEO is wanting to
00:33:06
throw under the bus one of their direct
00:33:08
reports who then manages a whole
00:33:10
division?" Um not helpful. Can really
00:33:13
not helpful. Completely agree. Mhm.
00:33:17
It's very challenging. But looking at it
00:33:19
the other side, when you were a chief
00:33:21
executive, it's a very different view.
00:33:24
And I'm finding this myself on my own
00:33:26
board, um where I was independent before
00:33:29
and now I'm the CEO and accountable to
00:33:31
the board. I can now see some of the
00:33:34
challenges of coming or going into
00:33:37
meetings or coming out of meetings and
00:33:39
either
00:33:40
uh kind of thinking I should have known
00:33:42
the answer to that question the board
00:33:43
asked me or why on earth did they probe
00:33:46
so deeply on that when there's so many
00:33:47
other issues that should have been
00:33:49
raised and I really wanted to get to
00:33:50
that, but they just would not get off
00:33:52
this one topic. With your view now of
00:33:56
being a non-exec director,
00:33:58
how do you think that having been a CEO
00:34:00
and now sitting on the other side of the
00:34:02
table it's changed your perspective on
00:34:04
how you operate as a non-exec director?
00:34:07
Uh I don't think it changed it because I
00:34:08
was only ever a non-exec having come out
00:34:11
of being a founder and have my own
00:34:13
board, right? So, I guess I've always
00:34:16
have tilted towards thinking about
00:34:17
things from the management perspective.
00:34:19
And I think most good non-executive
00:34:21
directors do try and do that because
00:34:23
most of them have been in some kind of
00:34:24
operational roles, so don't be too down
00:34:26
on everybody. But I think you can as you
00:34:28
get a bit grander and a bit more away
00:34:29
from operational detail, it's a bit too
00:34:32
easy sometimes to forget what that
00:34:33
actually feels like. Um
00:34:35
so, I don't know if it changed anything.
00:34:37
I hope that's why I've been anyway an
00:34:39
effective board member because I'm kind
00:34:42
of starting always with with the person.
00:34:44
Um
00:34:45
I I think the
00:34:47
the other thing to remember, and I I
00:34:48
always say this is, boards are basically
00:34:50
completely unimportant until they're
00:34:52
phenomenally important. And so, I always
00:34:56
just try and get in my head that the CEO
00:34:58
is not worrying about the board all the
00:34:59
time. That is just not That's not what
00:35:01
they feel is going to unlock the success
00:35:03
of their company. And if they are, then
00:35:05
there's probably an issue, right? So,
00:35:08
you know, the CEO is worrying about the
00:35:09
customer base, they're worrying about
00:35:11
whether the team is right, all the
00:35:12
stuff, geopolitical things might be
00:35:13
going on. And so, just bit bearing that
00:35:16
in mind, I think is also extremely
00:35:17
helpful. And most of the time boards are
00:35:20
there to be symbolic, they're doing
00:35:22
governance, they're obviously doing the
00:35:24
bits of legal stuff they have to do, all
00:35:26
that all that piece.
00:35:28
Only at moments of change, crisis,
00:35:31
acquisition, and all those things, that
00:35:33
the things become different. And I think
00:35:35
it's it is quite important to keep that
00:35:37
in mind. Mhm.
00:35:39
Absolutely. You've worked with some
00:35:42
really high-profile and continue to work
00:35:43
with some really high-profile boards.
00:35:46
When you walk into a boardroom, what do
00:35:50
you think instantly speaks to you about
00:35:53
the effectiveness of that board or what
00:35:55
signals toxicity um and maybe somewhere
00:35:58
that you might not want to be sticking
00:36:01
around for longer term?
00:36:03
I mean, I think the relationship between
00:36:05
the chair and the CEO is fundamental. Uh
00:36:08
if I haven't been the chair, then that's
00:36:09
the thing that I think creates the board
00:36:12
dynamic. Cuz if there's tension between
00:36:14
them, and I don't mean that there may be
00:36:15
a challenging question being asked from
00:36:17
the chair. I'm talking about something
00:36:18
more fundamental, then I it's I, in my
00:36:21
opinion, incredibly hard for the board
00:36:22
to function well because it keeps you
00:36:24
you just keep kind of ramming up against
00:36:26
that relationship. And I I've
00:36:28
unfortunately experienced that way too
00:36:30
many times in my life. So, that's the
00:36:32
first thing is just really understand
00:36:33
what that chair CEO relationship is
00:36:35
like.
00:36:36
If there's anything you can do to make
00:36:37
sure it's as productive and helpful as
00:36:39
possible. Um the second thing and you
00:36:41
already pointed it out is how the the
00:36:42
CEO treats the the executive team and
00:36:45
the team coming into the board, whether
00:36:47
more people do come to the board. Some
00:36:48
CEOs can be very private. I don't think
00:36:49
that's very good. I think you should be
00:36:51
using the board to expose your team as
00:36:53
much as possible. Um
00:36:55
that's that's a kind of indicator. So, I
00:36:56
I guess for me it is about those
00:36:58
relationships initially. And I And also
00:37:00
reaction to questions. So, you know,
00:37:03
when you ask a question, are they
00:37:05
interested? Do they want to give you the
00:37:06
answer? Or are they kind of trying to
00:37:09
push push you away from the answer and
00:37:11
and and close close you off.
00:37:13
Yeah. And what do you think is um
00:37:16
a kind of some good behaviors or
00:37:18
behaviors you've seen of the most
00:37:19
effective chairs? Cuz being a chair is a
00:37:22
massive responsibility, um but also
00:37:25
comes with some very different
00:37:26
challenges to being a non-exec director.
00:37:29
Yeah.
00:37:29
I mean, I think most most recently I
00:37:32
guess it was chairing WeTransfer up to
00:37:33
its acquisition by Bending Spoons, big
00:37:36
uh European tech company. And I guess I
00:37:38
saw my role there as obviously you just
00:37:40
have to spend a lot more time with the
00:37:41
company. It sounds obvious, but that's
00:37:42
the first thing, right? A good chair
00:37:44
doesn't just rock up and chair, you
00:37:46
know, you have to build a relationship
00:37:48
build a relationship with the CEO, build
00:37:50
relationships with the wider team, spend
00:37:52
time in the office, try to, you know, be
00:37:54
a bit more of the glue so that people
00:37:56
get to know you, they see you, you're
00:37:58
not ever acting in a surprising way,
00:37:59
they they know some of your surprising
00:38:01
behaviors. Um that's the first thing is
00:38:03
just more time.
00:38:04
Uh I think the second thing is
00:38:06
you know, you are chairing the meetings,
00:38:07
you're not running them, they're not
00:38:08
your meetings, they're not your voice,
00:38:10
they're not you deciding. That's the CEO
00:38:12
of the company. You have to facilitate
00:38:14
the effective challenge, the effective
00:38:16
um provocations or the the right
00:38:18
strategic direction. So, a lot of that
00:38:20
is about the agenda, making sure the
00:38:22
agenda is good, going through it with
00:38:24
the the CEO, making sure that you're
00:38:26
getting to a good cadence through the
00:38:27
year, you're covering off topics that
00:38:28
the board members want to talk about.
00:38:30
So, spending time with the company,
00:38:32
setting a really good agenda, and then
00:38:34
spending time with the other non-execs.
00:38:36
You know, I remember when I joined the
00:38:36
board of Twitter, I thought I come here
00:38:38
from the US UK, sorry, I don't know
00:38:40
anyone here in the US. I'm going to have
00:38:41
a cup cup of coffee with everybody on
00:38:43
the board, and got a board member said
00:38:45
it was the first time that any board
00:38:47
member had ever done something outside
00:38:49
the board with them. And I remember
00:38:50
thinking, "Wow, that feels completely
00:38:52
bizarre, because how can you function as
00:38:54
a group if you don't sort of know each
00:38:55
other a bit?" So, I also see a role of
00:38:57
the chair as kind of being that
00:38:59
facilitator, encouraging the non-execs
00:39:01
to form friendship not friendships, but
00:39:03
professional relationships, be able to
00:39:04
work together well. It doesn't just have
00:39:06
to be social, it can be, you know, just
00:39:08
professional as well, obviously. So, I
00:39:11
if I'm sharing something, I spend a lot
00:39:13
of time in the company with the CEO
00:39:14
without trying to dominate, a lot of
00:39:16
time on the agenda, a lot of time
00:39:19
getting to know the other non-execs, and
00:39:20
trying to facilitate that. So, always
00:39:22
making sure we have a non-exec only
00:39:24
session, a non-exec with the CEO of the
00:39:27
company session, and then a wash-up
00:39:29
after all of that kind of stuff, and
00:39:30
make sure if there's anything
00:39:31
outstanding, you go back to board
00:39:33
members, you call them, you you you're
00:39:34
available if anyone wants to talk to you
00:39:36
about stuff that might be worrying them
00:39:38
in the business. So, you know, it is
00:39:40
work, but it's not it's not rocket
00:39:42
science, it's about making the
00:39:44
relationships work, in my opinion.
00:39:46
Yeah. And you you mentioned Twitter
00:39:48
there, so you were part of the board up
00:39:51
until the the sale of Twitter to Elon.
00:39:56
How how did that all kind of not
00:39:58
necessarily come about, but how did that
00:40:00
work with regards to the board, because
00:40:02
that must have been quite an interesting
00:40:04
situation to be in?
00:40:06
Yes, interesting is one way of
00:40:08
describing it.
00:40:09
>> [laughter]
00:40:09
>> I'm trying to be diplomatic here. I was
00:40:12
chair of the nomination committee when
00:40:14
Elon decided he wanted to be on the
00:40:16
board. I'll never forget it. I got a
00:40:17
text message. It must have been early
00:40:19
San Francisco time, so like after lunch
00:40:21
UK time on a Sunday from one of the
00:40:23
other board members saying, "We need to
00:40:25
talk. Elon wants to join our board." And
00:40:27
I I didn't know Elon, so it was a joke,
00:40:29
basically. So, I called him and he's
00:40:31
like, "Uh yeah, we need you to talk to
00:40:32
Elon." And I was like, "Oh my god."
00:40:34
Because the first line of defense is the
00:40:35
nomination governance committee chair.
00:40:38
Um anyway, as it was the the CEO and the
00:40:40
the chair met him first and then I I met
00:40:42
him afterwards. But, you know, in my
00:40:45
official roles as chair of nomination
00:40:47
governance committee, I had to manage a
00:40:48
process
00:40:49
uh that then turned into acquisition. I
00:40:52
was also chair of the compensation
00:40:53
committee, so there was a whole bunch of
00:40:55
stuff around that with the acquisition
00:40:56
and people's comp and what that was
00:40:57
going to look like. And it was really
00:40:59
intense. And then I was also on the
00:41:01
transaction committee. There were just
00:41:02
three of us, me and the chair and
00:41:04
um
00:41:05
Patrick Pichette. So, it was for a
00:41:07
period of time it was like becoming an
00:41:09
executive in the company, to be honest.
00:41:11
It was work every day. I mean, obviously
00:41:13
I wasn't running Twitter. I was here in
00:41:14
the UK. But, you know, we had meetings
00:41:16
every day, sometimes multiple meetings.
00:41:17
I can remember twice we worked through
00:41:19
the night, 24 hours solid without
00:41:21
stopping cuz we had to try and get
00:41:22
contracts done.
00:41:23
Like two holidays completely trashed.
00:41:25
But, I don't mean like poor me. That
00:41:27
that's the job. But, I think sometimes
00:41:28
people don't appreciate that is the job.
00:41:31
You know, you you have to show up at
00:41:32
those moments of crisis. We had one
00:41:34
board member who I think just didn't
00:41:35
quite realize that, you know, taking
00:41:37
your kids to school is not a reason not
00:41:38
to come to a a Twitter board meeting
00:41:40
that was called an hour before. You you
00:41:42
have to show up. Um so, I feel in some
00:41:45
ways unbelievably lucky because
00:41:48
it was an exposure to a set of
00:41:49
circumstances that most people don't
00:41:52
have in their whole career. And I feel
00:41:54
as though stuff happened in that
00:41:56
that 18 months on that board,
00:41:57
particularly around the deal on bit that
00:41:59
was on the board sorry for 6 years, but
00:42:01
in that in that bit that was, you know,
00:42:04
most people would just love to have
00:42:06
exposure in their careers. But, in other
00:42:09
ways it it was really it was tough. It
00:42:11
was really tough. And it was unpleasant
00:42:13
and you know, we had to sell the Elon
00:42:15
because he'd given us this insane offer
00:42:16
for the business, but
00:42:18
no one woke up in the morning wanting to
00:42:20
to trash Twitter. We were on that board.
00:42:22
It was a difficult board to be on. It
00:42:23
was a complicated company. It was in the
00:42:25
public eye. And you know, I'm proud of
00:42:27
the fact that it didn't kind of turn
00:42:29
into the Hunger Games, which it could
00:42:30
have done. Didn't turn into the Hunger
00:42:32
Games in the press. We kept the board
00:42:33
together. Kept the management team
00:42:35
together.
00:42:36
And in the end,
00:42:37
despite what you might think about where
00:42:39
the company has ended up, we did the
00:42:41
right thing for shareholders, which was
00:42:42
our job.
00:42:43
Yeah, absolutely. And that that's
00:42:46
another moment of immense media
00:42:49
attention. Yeah. Um you you were used to
00:42:53
that, right? Cuz you had experienced it
00:42:55
in
00:42:55
>> I mean I guess that
00:42:56
fazes me so much and I I think the only
00:42:59
thing that fazes me was, you know, some
00:43:00
of the Elon tactics that he uses through
00:43:02
his lawyers are unpleasant and that's
00:43:04
not nice. But um you know, personally.
00:43:07
Uh but the the media stuff, you know, I
00:43:09
I I feel quite robust about that.
00:43:13
Yeah.
00:43:14
Oh, it's good. It is really interesting
00:43:17
and like you say, it's definitely one of
00:43:19
those moments that not everyone will
00:43:21
experience.
00:43:23
No, it really won't. And I remember
00:43:25
I kept the FT, I think, cuz I had one of
00:43:28
those kind of crazy 24-hour days and
00:43:30
then the next day on the front page of
00:43:31
the FT was all this stuff about what
00:43:33
we'd been doing. I was like, this is so
00:43:35
weird. It's like living in this parallel
00:43:37
universe where there's all this noise
00:43:38
about this deal. At least there was
00:43:39
noise around me. Um not I don't mean me
00:43:41
and the deal, I just mean where I was
00:43:43
looking, my newspapers or the radio. And
00:43:45
I'm in it and it's just so strange.
00:43:47
Sometimes you have this kind of weird
00:43:49
discombobulation feeling. Um but yeah,
00:43:52
it it's uh it was certainly well, I
00:43:54
learned a lot and I'm so lucky to have
00:43:56
worked with some really spectacular
00:43:58
people in in the business. They were
00:43:59
really amazing. But it it
00:44:01
sometimes I forget that it was
00:44:02
particularly intense because it came on
00:44:04
the back of two things that I had had to
00:44:07
lead for the company. The first of which
00:44:08
was managing Jack's transition out of
00:44:10
the company and recruitment of the new
00:44:12
CEO. So, I led that process and that was
00:44:14
pretty high-stakes and quite intense.
00:44:17
And also, had to move the activist
00:44:19
investor Elliott off the board. And I
00:44:21
remember I got a text message from the
00:44:23
general counsel first
00:44:25
first week of January saying, "Well,
00:44:26
nothing can possibly be as intense as
00:44:28
2021." Cut to then 2 months later, Elon
00:44:32
wants to buy the company. I was like,
00:44:33
"Oh my god." [laughter]
00:44:35
Wow. Yep.
00:44:37
Yeah, that that's definitely could be a
00:44:39
career-defining moment, but you've had
00:44:41
many of those. Many of those. I'm sure.
00:44:46
Um so, boards really do
00:44:49
um look at diversity and diversity of
00:44:52
thought. Um
00:44:54
and with that sort of thing, sometimes
00:44:57
there can be friction,
00:45:00
um but sometimes that can be necessary
00:45:03
as part of building building a good team
00:45:06
and building a challenging senior team
00:45:10
or even looking at the board itself.
00:45:12
Yeah.
00:45:12
>> Um what is one uncomfortable truth about
00:45:17
how people can avoid the box tick and
00:45:21
and support that kind of constructive
00:45:23
criticism without it getting too out of
00:45:26
hand? I'm sure you've experienced a lot
00:45:27
of egos in the various different boards
00:45:30
that you've been on over the course of
00:45:32
time or been part of.
00:45:34
What do you think is is a potential way
00:45:37
through that?
00:45:38
Well, the first thing I'd say is
00:45:41
read the room, right? You know,
00:45:43
different CEOs or different executives
00:45:45
react in different ways in different
00:45:47
circumstances, of course, cuz we're all
00:45:49
people and we all react in different
00:45:50
ways at different times. So, this kind
00:45:52
of one way of being a critic or being a
00:45:55
challenger might not always be
00:45:56
effective. So, read the room and
00:45:58
sometimes that will mean taking that
00:46:00
discussion outside the boardroom, not
00:46:02
because you're trying to have a sub
00:46:03
board meeting, but because might be more
00:46:04
appropriate just to say to the CEO, "You
00:46:06
know what? I didn't like it when you
00:46:07
called out Blair in the meeting. I I
00:46:09
could see they were uncomfortable. I
00:46:11
just wanted to give you that feedback. I
00:46:12
think it might be worth thinking about
00:46:14
that moment." Or it might be that the
00:46:16
right thing to do is to talk to a couple
00:46:18
of other non-execs and say, "Look, do
00:46:19
you think that was this is something we
00:46:21
should be having a bit more of a a
00:46:23
discussion about?" And and and then
00:46:24
coming to the CEO like that. Or it might
00:46:26
be absolutely that it's in the room. And
00:46:27
very often that is the right way. And my
00:46:30
own view is that
00:46:31
you want to
00:46:33
Partly this is a chair-based role, but
00:46:35
it's also
00:46:37
you can add to this as a good non-exec.
00:46:39
You want to build up trust by showing
00:46:41
you understand the company, putting in
00:46:42
the work, doing the time. You know, you
00:46:44
can't just walk into a boardroom and
00:46:46
start criticizing everybody. That's
00:46:47
obviously going to land deafly. But if
00:46:49
people can see that you are trying to
00:46:51
learn, you've been involved in the
00:46:53
business, you've got to know some of the
00:46:54
characters, you are doing the work, you
00:46:56
read the board papers. Again, I'm always
00:46:58
shocked by how many people sometimes I
00:46:59
feel like haven't read the board papers.
00:47:01
Then I think that's is your job. And it
00:47:03
doesn't have to be that you're doing it
00:47:05
in a way that sounds like you're being a
00:47:07
complete ass. You can do it in a way
00:47:08
that sounds like, you know, I'm
00:47:09
interested in this because when I was
00:47:11
thinking about it, a different
00:47:12
perspective came to me. How have you
00:47:14
been thinking about that? If you want to
00:47:16
have a light touch. Or you can say,
00:47:17
"Look, just to
00:47:18
give a perspective here. You told me
00:47:20
three board meetings ago that by this
00:47:22
board meeting this was going to happen.
00:47:23
Why has Why in your opinion has it not
00:47:26
worked?" Or something You know, you can
00:47:27
There's always a way to challenge
00:47:29
without making it sound like you're
00:47:31
trying to be scoring points or being a
00:47:33
bit of an ass.
00:47:34
But I think the first thing is read the
00:47:35
room. And it's not always that
00:47:38
one mechanism that's going to be the
00:47:39
most effective.
00:47:41
Yeah, absolutely. And obviously on the
00:47:43
flip side of having that constructive
00:47:45
challenge is group think. Yes.
00:47:48
>> Um how how do you think that chairs and
00:47:50
non-executive directors and and the
00:47:52
executives can help avoid that group
00:47:55
think? Because that puts everybody at
00:47:56
risk. Personal reputations as well as
00:47:59
potentially the organization. It's
00:48:01
really hard. It's really hard, and I
00:48:02
think
00:48:03
um
00:48:04
it is good to have some grit in the
00:48:05
oyster. You know, I've been on boards
00:48:07
with some really some really tricky
00:48:08
people, and sometimes they've been
00:48:09
tricky just being tricky, and it hasn't
00:48:11
helped, and then way of being tricky
00:48:12
hasn't been good. But what they've said
00:48:14
been saying is often been right. Uh I
00:48:17
think you know, healthy boards, in my
00:48:19
opinion, have a perspective wide-ranging
00:48:21
perspectives, and it is the chair's job
00:48:24
to bring them out, and not to be
00:48:25
frightened sometimes just to let those
00:48:27
opinions sit there. You don't always
00:48:28
have to react to everything. You can
00:48:30
bring out people who might say, "Erica,
00:48:32
what do you think? I'm sure you're going
00:48:33
to have a different point of view." And
00:48:35
you can sort of set it up, and then you
00:48:36
can enable that person to speak. It's
00:48:38
just basic common sense in many ways.
00:48:41
But I do think letting everybody speak
00:48:43
is a good way, so that people find their
00:48:44
voice. They feel like it's okay to talk.
00:48:47
And you can definitely help as chair.
00:48:49
And if you don't feel your chair is
00:48:50
helping you, then talk to them. And say,
00:48:53
"You might not be aware, but I don't
00:48:54
feel I can speak this stuff. Can you
00:48:56
help me express my opinion? Or what do
00:48:58
you think?" I think, you know, building
00:48:59
those outside relationships doesn't have
00:49:01
to be all in some kind of Lady Macbeth
00:49:03
plot. It can just be being smart about
00:49:06
building relationships, right? So, um
00:49:09
that's what I enjoy doing on boards. I
00:49:10
think helping them function better is is
00:49:13
really really important. And you know, I
00:49:15
just joined a board recently and just
00:49:18
asked the CEO if I could have some time
00:49:20
with them, and we had a really great
00:49:21
couple of hours. Some of it was about
00:49:22
the business. Some of it wasn't about
00:49:24
nothing about the business. But I know
00:49:25
that because of that, and he now trusts
00:49:27
me a bit more, we know each other a bit
00:49:28
better, I told him a couple of things I
00:49:30
thought actually just about the format
00:49:31
of the board meetings, and now I know
00:49:34
that if I was going to challenge
00:49:35
something a bit bigger and deeper, we've
00:49:36
just we've got that banked bit of trust.
00:49:39
So, you know, none of what I'm saying is
00:49:41
is anything other than common sense, but
00:49:43
again, just a perspective from so many
00:49:45
different boards is that
00:49:47
I think often people don't think that it
00:49:48
is important to put in the time on those
00:49:50
relationships to build that trust as it
00:49:53
as it can as it is I in my opinion.
00:49:56
Yeah, and people are human, right? So,
00:49:58
it's about having that humanity and
00:50:01
bringing that to the leadership position
00:50:03
the same as you would do any other role.
00:50:06
But the other thing to just remember is
00:50:08
you are not an executive. You're
00:50:10
non-executive, right? And so, sometimes
00:50:12
you will say things and you will be
00:50:13
disagreed with. And you will think
00:50:15
they're wrong and you will probably be
00:50:17
right. Sometimes you'll be wrong.
00:50:18
Sometimes you might be right.
00:50:20
That's it, right? You can only give your
00:50:22
perspective, but I think accepting that
00:50:24
you don't
00:50:26
you're not trying to drive always
00:50:28
the outcome, that you're trying to kind
00:50:30
of help in the process of the thinking.
00:50:32
That's quite a good way of thinking
00:50:34
about challenges well.
00:50:37
Yeah, [snorts] absolutely. And boards
00:50:39
when they have um their conversations
00:50:41
and debates, will talk about risk
00:50:44
appetite. Yes.
00:50:46
And I think few [snorts] fewer than I
00:50:50
would hope really understand what that
00:50:52
means. Yeah.
00:50:54
Um how do you think boards should
00:50:56
approach risk? The world is fast
00:50:59
changing, right? It's constantly
00:51:01
evolving.
00:51:02
I think risk registers are one of the
00:51:04
things that make me laugh the most. You
00:51:05
know, the charts where you've got like
00:51:07
you know, all these things plotted on a
00:51:08
picture and you think, well, now I
00:51:09
always say, "What do you do with this?
00:51:11
Where does this live in the business and
00:51:12
what has this What has changed in the
00:51:14
business because you've done this
00:51:15
picture?"
00:51:16
And I think that's quite a good starting
00:51:18
point. It's like, okay, what what is how
00:51:19
do you manage risk and really
00:51:20
understanding that as a board member so
00:51:21
that you can get a sense of it. Um
00:51:25
and obviously you have different levels
00:51:26
of risk in different bits of a business
00:51:28
and different life stages of a business,
00:51:29
but just having a general discussion
00:51:31
about, okay, what is our appetite for
00:51:33
risk?
00:51:34
If you're just pre-IPO, probably quite
00:51:35
low because you don't want to screw
00:51:36
everything up and you want to make sure
00:51:38
you're not going to do some crazy high
00:51:39
or some mad acquisition and and things
00:51:42
are going to go in the wrong direction.
00:51:43
So, I would say it does depend a bit on
00:51:46
the the time and space. Um and
00:51:50
apart from that, I think
00:51:52
it you've just got to keep it a live
00:51:53
discussion and it can't be again that we
00:51:56
started this conversation, oh risk, it's
00:51:58
over there. Yeah. It's got to be
00:52:00
something that you talk about as
00:52:02
something that is living and breathing
00:52:03
and and that it's a bit more
00:52:05
intentional.
00:52:06
Yeah. And and looking at risks when
00:52:10
things go wrong, that tends to lead to a
00:52:11
crisis and we've already mentioned a few
00:52:14
of them of those kind of intensive
00:52:16
public scrutiny or even IPO which isn't
00:52:19
necessarily a crisis, but it does create
00:52:22
that tension. How did you stay calm? I
00:52:25
think I am just lucky. I am quite a calm
00:52:27
person. I'm not I can get very over
00:52:29
excitable and I can be completely
00:52:31
ridiculous, but fundamentally I'm quite
00:52:33
calm and it's hard to analyze yourself,
00:52:35
isn't it? But I I'm again I I don't mean
00:52:36
to
00:52:37
uh get the the
00:52:39
the tiny violins out, but you know, the
00:52:41
accident I had was so completely
00:52:43
life-altering. I went from being an
00:52:44
able-bodied person to a disabled person.
00:52:47
And when that's your backdrop, you don't
00:52:49
sweat sweat the small stuff quite as
00:52:51
much. You just don't because I'm lucky
00:52:53
to be able to walk. And so even when,
00:52:55
you know, Elon's swearing at you and you
00:52:57
think you've got everything wrong and
00:52:59
all that, it's like just hold on for me
00:53:01
just hold on to that my central thing
00:53:04
which is I am alive and I'm able to
00:53:06
function. And so you just need to find a
00:53:09
thing for you that's that thing. And I
00:53:11
also um you know, this that's a bit
00:53:13
personal perhaps, but perhaps more
00:53:14
helpful than having a catastrophic car
00:53:16
accident, I'm not suggesting that.
00:53:18
I just have a hinterland. You know, I
00:53:20
say this all the time. You know, for me
00:53:22
again, it's reading, it's going to the
00:53:23
theater, obviously my family and all
00:53:25
those things, but it's incredibly
00:53:26
important to me to have something else
00:53:28
in my life. I'm not a kind of business
00:53:30
maniac. I'm not an obsessive just do
00:53:32
work work work. That's my business work
00:53:34
all the time. I would be terrible at
00:53:35
that. I like writing. I love reading. I
00:53:37
go to the theater a lot. I you know, I
00:53:39
enjoy a bunch of things and if I have
00:53:41
them in my life, I know I feel calmer,
00:53:43
and I can feel my head getting a bit
00:53:45
like full up and hectic if I don't have
00:53:47
that what for me is a pressure valve and
00:53:49
a release. So, find your hinterland,
00:53:51
whether that's exercise, being outside,
00:53:53
reading a book, whatever it is, reading
00:53:55
a poem.
00:53:56
Yeah.
00:53:57
That's That's a really good piece of
00:53:58
advice. It's probably good piece of
00:53:59
advice for anyone in any situation where
00:54:02
it's stressful.
00:54:04
Um Probably better than have a
00:54:05
catastrophic correct.
00:54:06
>> [laughter]
00:54:07
>> Yeah, but you talk about gratitude, and
00:54:08
that's important. Um and it's gratitude
00:54:11
for for life and what you have. Um and I
00:54:15
think that that everybody can and can
00:54:17
kind of take a piece of that and apply
00:54:20
it. And keeping perspective, you know, I
00:54:22
know some Some businesses are dealing
00:54:24
with life and death. I get that. I've
00:54:26
never really been involved in a business
00:54:28
that's where people might actually die.
00:54:29
I mean, now I'm on the board of British
00:54:30
Airways, it's slightly different. I'm on
00:54:32
the safety and security committee for
00:54:34
there, and uh Allison Britton, the very
00:54:36
other brilliant other non-exec, she's
00:54:38
always like, "This is actually the only
00:54:39
thing that I do where people might
00:54:40
actually die."
00:54:41
But generally, people aren't going to
00:54:43
die, and so I think it's just worth
00:54:45
Okay. So, maybe our SaaS sales this year
00:54:47
weren't that brilliant. I know it's it's
00:54:50
it's something we have to work through,
00:54:51
but just taking a breath and thinking
00:54:53
about what it's like being a woman in
00:54:54
Afghanistan. I also find that quite
00:54:56
helpful. Yeah, absolutely.
00:54:59
What do you think, talking about kind of
00:55:01
hard decisions, what do you think is one
00:55:03
of the hardest board decisions that
00:55:04
you've been part of, and what did it
00:55:06
teach you?
00:55:07
Definitely all the stuff around dealing
00:55:09
with the hardest stuff I had to deal
00:55:10
with. Um just the micro daily micro of
00:55:14
the stuff he was throwing at us as a
00:55:15
company or he's throwing at the
00:55:17
executive team, some of the decisions
00:55:19
you have to make about comp or not for
00:55:20
the team in the deal. Horrible, horrible
00:55:22
decisions. And dealing with it was
00:55:24
asymmetrical warfare because he was so
00:55:26
out of control. Um beyond that, I think
00:55:29
in boards, the difficult decisions have
00:55:31
normally been around CEOs and when to
00:55:33
move one on and whether to hire the a
00:55:35
new one. Um I feel like I've been
00:55:38
involved in far too many CEO transitions
00:55:41
of big public companies, of smaller
00:55:43
companies. It's never easy, especially
00:55:45
if you have to move someone on when they
00:55:46
weren't expecting it.
00:55:47
Uh, so I think they're they're the two
00:55:49
the two things.
00:55:51
Is there Do you think that there's any
00:55:52
way I've also been in situations where
00:55:54
I've seen CEOs being moved on and they
00:55:56
were totally blindsided by the whole
00:55:58
thing?
00:55:59
I'm I'm probably asking a question that
00:56:02
I don't even necessarily feel that even
00:56:03
I could answer, but do you think that
00:56:05
there is any anything that board should
00:56:08
be doing or maybe not to um
00:56:12
tip off or advise that the the CEO is
00:56:16
potentially in that area? I don't Some
00:56:18
of the situations.
00:56:20
Sorry to cut across you.
00:56:20
>> No, I think Yeah. I think the board
00:56:22
hasn't done its job if the CEO is
00:56:24
blindsided. Fair enough.
00:56:25
>> Because ideally you should have set up
00:56:27
clear measurable outcomes, metrics. You
00:56:29
should be judging the person regularly,
00:56:31
having regular feedback with them. And
00:56:33
so it shouldn't be it should never be a
00:56:35
surprise. The board has not done its job
00:56:37
well if it's a surprise. And from the
00:56:38
other side as well, and if the CEO
00:56:39
decides they want to leave, they should
00:56:41
also have built some succession plans,
00:56:43
had some open conversations. And that's
00:56:44
all about creating a collaborative
00:56:46
environment on the board. So it's not
00:56:47
like them and us. The CEO feels they can
00:56:50
talk to the chair. It doesn't have to be
00:56:51
the whole board even, but that that is
00:56:53
that is the fundamental job of a of a
00:56:55
board is to make sure the company is run
00:56:57
well. So I think that's a a fail.
00:57:00
Yeah, absolutely. And I've seen that
00:57:02
myself with CEOs deciding to leave and
00:57:06
there is then just a a gap because
00:57:08
everyone thought that they were in it
00:57:10
for the long term and they wanted to
00:57:11
stick around and do whatever it might
00:57:12
be, but there was just no way that that
00:57:15
was going to happen. And And that was
00:57:18
it, they were gone. Final question,
00:57:21
um, if you were mentoring a new
00:57:24
non-executive, so new to being a
00:57:26
non-executive, um, that had just joined
00:57:29
a board that you were on, what one piece
00:57:32
of advice would you give them that you
00:57:34
wouldn't find in a handbook?
00:57:41
I mean, I think a lot of things you
00:57:42
probably would find in the handbook, but
00:57:44
I'm not sure it's as easy to do them as
00:57:45
you imagine. So, I think the first thing
00:57:48
is this combination of finding your
00:57:50
voice quite quickly so that you're you
00:57:53
establish yourself but listening for a
00:57:55
very long time. So, that it can be a
00:57:58
tricky combination cuz when you first
00:57:59
going to be like, "Oh, I've got to
00:58:00
speak. I must make myself heard." But a
00:58:03
good chair will help you make yourself
00:58:05
heard. Um
00:58:06
but the main thing is just to keep
00:58:08
listening and really really really try
00:58:10
and learn the business. I think, you
00:58:12
know, as I said, I think the thing that
00:58:14
lots of people don't do that's always
00:58:16
valuable is just ask the other non-execs
00:58:18
to spend half an hour with you. Get
00:58:20
their perspectives on things. You know,
00:58:22
they may look like they're being
00:58:23
intimidating or they don't want to know,
00:58:25
but that's not true. Everybody likes to
00:58:26
be asked. The worst they can do is say
00:58:28
no. Um so, I would I would always say
00:58:31
you probably would anyway spend time
00:58:32
with the chair, but ask the other
00:58:34
non-execs to spend half an hour with you
00:58:36
and you'll learn a lot. And try and get
00:58:38
that combination right of finding your
00:58:39
voice but also taking the time to really
00:58:42
listen and learn from the business.
00:58:45
That's great. Thank you very much,
00:58:46
Martha. It's been fantastic to have you
00:58:48
on the podcast. Thanks for joining me.
00:58:50
Thank you for inviting me. And if you're
00:58:52
thinking about going on a board, do it
00:58:53
because it's an amazing extra piece of
00:58:55
the puzzle in the career, I think.
00:58:58
Yeah, thank you. That's great.
00:59:00
There were a number of elements that
00:59:03
stood out to me from the conversation I
00:59:04
had today with Martha.
00:59:07
Um one of them was around the learning
00:59:09
curve that she experienced with
00:59:11
lastminute.com. She was in her 20s
00:59:14
>> [music]
00:59:14
>> and moving through that process and also
00:59:16
stepping towards the IPO process and
00:59:19
what [music] that meant for the
00:59:20
organization and also for her personally
00:59:22
was really interesting. I think the fact
00:59:24
that she um said [music] that
00:59:27
understanding funds and investors more
00:59:29
would have helped her.
00:59:30
Um is hopefully incredibly helpful to
00:59:33
organizations that are going down that
00:59:35
IPO route um and uh allows them to
00:59:38
[music] think about some of these things
00:59:39
maybe in a little bit more detail.
00:59:41
She spoke about creating great teams,
00:59:44
which is what she said was part um if
00:59:47
not a very large part of her success.
00:59:50
[music] And she said that building those
00:59:52
teams was about having a strong sense of
00:59:55
purpose both [music] personally but also
00:59:57
the team as well.
00:59:58
I think that
01:00:00
realistically [music] in today's modern
01:00:03
world, modern boards, AI is going to be
01:00:05
a topic that comes up regularly. And
01:00:08
Martha spoke [music] to us about that
01:00:10
and said that it was really important to
01:00:12
keep AI under consideration. She didn't
01:00:14
have all the answers. I don't think
01:00:16
anybody does, as she said. Um but that
01:00:18
[music] real life impact on people and
01:00:20
human
01:00:21
uh humans is so important. Finally,
01:00:25
[music] I think the consequences of
01:00:27
going public was something that really
01:00:29
stood out to me. So, she spoke about the
01:00:31
consequences for her personally and the
01:00:34
fact that she was pushed [music] into
01:00:35
the spotlight even though she was a
01:00:37
co-founder. Um she was personally um the
01:00:41
person that everybody wanted to talk to.
01:00:43
[music] And she also spoke about a lot
01:00:46
of the negativity that came from that um
01:00:49
and a lot of the criticism that came as
01:00:51
a result.
01:00:52
If you found this conversation valuable,
01:00:54
please follow the show and share it with
01:00:56
someone who leads through complexity.
01:00:58
Until next time, stay thoughtful, stay
01:01:01
brave, and stay in the room.
01:01:06
>> [music]
01:01:14
[music]
