00:00:13
my father meant a great deal to me I
00:00:15
dream about what it would be like to
00:00:17
have him around today I went to my first
00:00:18
prom this year and you needed and needed
00:00:21
my dad to be there I celebrated my 16th
00:00:23
birthday recently and was very upset
00:00:25
because he couldn't be here all I want
00:00:27
to know is why I know what my father was
00:00:30
like and I'm aware of the actions that
00:00:31
took place in the murder I will do the
00:00:34
right thing and keep working towards
00:00:35
mine and my father's dreams which were
00:00:37
to go to college and open my own
00:00:39
[Music]
00:00:45
business I like just shut that part of
00:00:47
my life you know like I didn't cry I
00:00:50
just shut everything shut
00:00:54
down I don't
00:00:56
know it's it's something that I'm
00:00:59
dealing with in life
00:01:00
working
00:01:02
on learning feelings or expressing
00:01:06
feelings or knowing what you're feeling
00:01:08
I
00:01:09
[Music]
00:01:28
guess
00:01:33
I want him to kind of choose to it's so
00:01:35
hard like we've been married so long but
00:01:37
it's funny because I don't know exactly
00:01:40
what does he really like and then I was
00:01:41
thinking oh I'm going to get all these
00:01:42
things but at the same time I felt like
00:01:46
I wanted him to have a choice he's been
00:01:47
so many times told what to wear what to
00:01:50
put on I just you know bought a a shirt
00:01:52
with a pair of jeans considering the
00:01:54
fact he has not had any clothes for the
00:01:56
last 20s something years though I wanted
00:01:58
him to be able to decide what he wanted
00:02:00
to wear well you know it's funny cuz the
00:02:02
PA and I were saying oh who would sleep
00:02:04
on what side and um you know I told him
00:02:06
I'll probably sleep on the left side
00:02:08
because that's what I'm used to sleeping
00:02:12
on when something great happens what do
00:02:15
you do but have a bottle of champagne
00:02:16
everybody toast um you know to him being
00:02:19
home so I hear people comeing to work
00:02:23
and talk about their spouses oh they're
00:02:25
driving me crazy I can't stand him you
00:02:27
know and I'm thinking oh my God what I
00:02:30
would give to have paavo home what I
00:02:33
would give to have him annoying me or I
00:02:35
had to wash his clothes cuz he doesn't
00:02:37
want to wash it I would give everything
00:02:40
to have that
00:02:42
everything in the end it's about him
00:02:44
being free and them knowing he is
00:02:51
innocent everyone is suffering but I
00:02:54
don't I don't feel that bad
00:02:58
really
00:03:00
because they are suffering but her she
00:03:03
she put herself there you you know and
00:03:08
and she stayed
00:03:10
there I don't know and he let her stay
00:03:12
knowing that he was
00:03:16
guilty I
00:03:17
[Music]
00:03:19
mean I can't speak for any of their side
00:03:23
I
00:03:24
don't I have a totally different outlook
00:03:27
on things than I think they
00:03:28
do
00:03:30
but it's it's clearly
00:03:33
him they want to say the video is grainy
00:03:35
black and white whatever but DNA doesn't
00:03:39
lie DNA doesn't
00:03:51
lie is there any trial footage you know
00:03:56
video from past trials available to show
00:04:00
how exhibits were handled when they were
00:04:03
moved into evidence how they were
00:04:05
handled when Chuck is waving them around
00:04:08
as we he's known to do yeah I think we
00:04:11
have to look for pictures and video of
00:04:13
the evidence being handled in this case
00:04:15
there may be circumstances where you
00:04:17
actually see exhibits being passed down
00:04:19
Council table to Pablo and then passed
00:04:22
back and then and you've got all of you
00:04:25
know all of those documented so we're
00:04:27
not talking hypothetically we're and
00:04:30
this is what
00:04:38
happened real
00:04:41
organiz it's been open so much it's been
00:04:45
open so much here he goes no gloves you
00:04:49
want gloves wait did he just ask him if
00:04:51
he wants gloves she doesn't to say isn't
00:04:54
it possible
00:04:55
that with the gloves he puts it on the
00:04:58
floor the most contaminated surface in a
00:05:03
room people think that that evidence is
00:05:05
held like in a freaking scientific Vault
00:05:08
and stuff and if they see this they'll
00:05:10
be like that's how they handled it but
00:05:13
it needs to get in front of a jury I
00:05:15
mean that's the
00:05:19
[Music]
00:05:22
idea the DNA is going to be the issue
00:05:25
that Pablo has the most trouble
00:05:28
answering you can already see that their
00:05:30
strategy is that the T-shirt was
00:05:33
contaminated it's not easy to
00:05:35
contaminate something with DNA they're
00:05:37
going to make it seem a lot easier than
00:05:39
it really is and it doesn't mean it's
00:05:41
impossible doesn't mean that nobody
00:05:42
makes
00:05:45
mistakes we're going to continue with um
00:05:49
Mr sukalo thank
00:05:51
you good afternoon good afternoon Mr
00:05:53
suomo if you have familiarity with DNA
00:05:56
yes talk about the transfer of DNA yes
00:05:59
yes we know that DNA can come and
00:06:02
commonly referred to as touch DNA yes I
00:06:04
touch my laptop and the common phrase we
00:06:07
use is touch DNA is the transfer of my
00:06:09
skin cells to the laptop correct and
00:06:12
that type of DNA um is easily
00:06:15
transferred from one object to another
00:06:18
directly correct I shook hands with Mr
00:06:20
ebar this
00:06:22
morning that hand toand contact could
00:06:25
transfer his DNA to my hand it could yes
00:06:29
then I touched the
00:06:32
photographs now whatever was on my hand
00:06:35
could end up on the photograph
00:06:36
potentially that's secondary transfer
00:06:38
correct correct then Mr Morton touches a
00:06:44
photograph whatever was on that
00:06:45
photograph can end up on his hand
00:06:47
potentially yes and then Mr Mor touches
00:06:50
an object whatever was on his hand end
00:06:53
up on that object
00:06:55
correct and these are phenomenon that
00:06:57
are well known to crime investigators
00:07:00
correct it's the principles of crime
00:07:02
scene the principles of crime scene now
00:07:05
we talked about the FL box next to the
00:07:09
victim on the floor there could be
00:07:11
fingerprint evidence on
00:07:13
this at that time yes and there could be
00:07:16
DNA of it in on this possibly and was
00:07:19
this in fact the sealed container that
00:07:22
you use when you collected the Black Box
00:07:26
correct now when we were in court
00:07:29
yesterday yesterday and Mr Morton handed
00:07:32
you the bag it was open correct and did
00:07:35
you also see Mr Morton when he took the
00:07:38
bag he took the box out and examined it
00:07:41
for a second while he was standing by
00:07:42
Council table correct and then he handed
00:07:44
it to his Co counsil and she examined it
00:07:47
correct and then it was brought over to
00:07:49
you and what did you get I put on gloves
00:07:53
and what does that do two keeps me from
00:07:55
transferring my DNA to that particular
00:07:58
item or anything that you touch
00:08:01
correct
00:08:03
so really the use of gloves it's
00:08:08
pointless because at this point now Mr
00:08:12
Morton has contaminated this piece of
00:08:16
evidence somebody has prior to this yes
00:08:19
but it's continued so again if I touch
00:08:23
Mr E bar and then I touched the photos
00:08:26
that Mr Morton was going through
00:08:27
yesterday and then Mr Morton touched the
00:08:29
photos and then he touched the Box this
00:08:32
is now not a reliable piece of physical
00:08:34
evidence cuz it's been contaminated
00:08:35
potentially potentially for further
00:08:44
examination I no further questions thank
00:08:46
you
00:08:47
honor the black box was irrelevant it
00:08:49
was another red herring uh if there was
00:08:52
no contamination because I had never
00:08:54
touched anything that belonging to Pablo
00:08:56
ebar the only thing that would have
00:08:58
happened to that black box and I'm sure
00:09:00
that you understood it is that my DNA
00:09:02
and my prints would have been added to
00:09:04
it but I was not on
00:09:11
trial the Black Box the way it was
00:09:14
handled by Chuck in the courtroom may
00:09:16
have opened the door to that video mhm
00:09:20
now that we've had two instances in the
00:09:21
courtroom of somebody handling physical
00:09:24
evidence that was in the custody of the
00:09:26
clerk's office and then the state
00:09:28
improperly
00:09:29
we can try at some point and I don't
00:09:31
know how we get it in or who we get it
00:09:32
in through Chuck is also unaware of the
00:09:34
chain of custody yeah yeah his own chain
00:09:38
of
00:09:41
custody you follow the chain of custody
00:09:44
from the time it was first put in as
00:09:46
evidence at the trial and then every
00:09:48
time it's been moved or um examined
00:09:52
again could somebody have not been
00:09:54
wearing gloves could somebody have not
00:09:57
taken proper precautions putting in and
00:09:58
out of the bag you'd have to go each and
00:10:01
every step to see the chain of custody
00:10:04
of that evidence and that's not
00:10:12
easy uh judge there's the other video
00:10:15
that I provided to the state um I
00:10:16
imagine they have an objection to it do
00:10:18
you intend to introduce it this morning
00:10:20
I do okay I do so okay address it now
00:10:22
what it is is it's a video of Mr Morin
00:10:24
is interviewed um and the portion that I
00:10:27
intend to introduce and it shows Mr more
00:10:29
what I think is the state attorney's
00:10:30
office going through and displaying
00:10:33
exhibits it clearly exhibits that were
00:10:35
entered into evidence that we've seen
00:10:37
here in this in this trial um to the
00:10:41
camera crew and includes Mr Morton not
00:10:43
wearing gloves um the same way we've
00:10:45
seen Mr and others handling
00:10:47
evidence in this courtroom what's your
00:10:49
what's your argument on the on on the
00:10:50
request I'm holding this is the shoot
00:10:53
this is not SE he's saying this is
00:10:56
mishandling evidence your question issue
00:10:59
is has the evidence been tampered with
00:11:01
in any form or fashion to make it
00:11:03
relevant I'm holding it now this all
00:11:06
right has the shoe been tampered with at
00:11:09
all not at all is that mishandling one
00:11:12
way or the other does it does it
00:11:14
establish in some form of fashion that
00:11:16
evidence was transferred particularly
00:11:18
DNA uh which is which has nothing to do
00:11:21
with this shoe right here to the shirt
00:11:24
that was at that crime scene that has no
00:11:26
relevance at all so what what's your
00:11:27
objection
00:11:32
okay he find it's
00:11:34
relevant okay thank you Jud all right
00:11:38
bring in the
00:11:40
jury jury's
00:11:57
entering have you seen it yet did you
00:12:00
watch it with the uh defense attorney
00:12:03
you don't watch
00:12:09
it go nah that's all
00:12:18
right for
00:12:20
you yeah M this is it one with a unique
00:12:24
basketball player on it you see there's
00:12:26
the hands these are the ones that were
00:12:28
taken from
00:12:29
the um his friend these were removed
00:12:32
from
00:12:34
him all right please leave your notes
00:12:36
inside the envelopes leave your
00:12:37
envelopes on the chair do not discuss
00:12:39
the case in any way shape or form or do
00:12:41
any impedant investigation we'll see you
00:12:43
Monday morning at
00:12:44
9:30 thank you that was a totally unfair
00:12:48
presentation of the video edited
00:12:51
doctored uh and trying to create a a
00:12:54
false scenario of tainting physical
00:12:57
evidence that was really not relevant uh
00:12:59
to the case the way it was presented it
00:13:01
was indeed uh uh tried to it was
00:13:04
presented as a personal attack but
00:13:07
retaliate and try to uh make personal
00:13:09
attacks on on any opposing Council no
00:13:11
matter what he or she tries to do to
00:13:21
me c I think I
00:13:27
cried you didn't amazing job an amazing
00:13:31
job thank you thank you yes we're having
00:13:34
lunch tomorrow I didn't realize Joe was
00:13:36
as good as he is yeah Joe was
00:13:38
unbelievable Joe Knows DNA better than
00:13:40
anybody I've ever seen that's practicing
00:13:42
law right now and he did a phenomenal
00:13:45
job and as you know Joe was
00:13:50
[Music]
00:13:57
brilliant
00:14:25
I know that people can only make
00:14:26
decisions with the information they are
00:14:27
given right cuz that's how our system is
00:14:29
based I feel that way about Spain there
00:14:33
there's a lot of things that they don't
00:14:34
know so they're they're being
00:14:36
purposefully misled the only thing I can
00:14:38
say is that if if you're watching this
00:14:41
and you've been one of those people
00:14:43
whove bought into the narrative that the
00:14:45
United States wrongly picked up Pablo
00:14:48
ibar because he was Latino and that
00:14:51
there's no evidence against him you need
00:14:53
to get real familiar with the facts of
00:14:55
this
00:14:56
case because if you don't know know the
00:14:58
facts of the case you would really
00:15:00
believe that we have the wrong guy and
00:15:03
we
00:15:16
don't I was really
00:15:19
scared at first I got to admit I was
00:15:21
just scared I didn't want to dentify him
00:15:23
I didn't but I knew who it was cuz I you
00:15:26
know I there was the guy you know I mean
00:15:29
I would have never been able just right
00:15:30
afterwards they gave me 10 pictures and
00:15:32
I said boom that guy you know I mean I'm
00:15:35
he was a
00:15:39
[Music]
00:15:51
guy Fred you and I should do this
00:15:54
together what that's me sit down with
00:15:57
Pablo and and just go through this trial
00:16:02
with him because no one knows it better
00:16:04
than him there are subtleties here every
00:16:06
time I talk to him and I think I've
00:16:08
learned a witness or I think I've
00:16:10
learned something I learn something new
00:16:13
when I start talking to him about it
00:16:14
hopefully you you guys start breaking up
00:16:16
Witnesses deciding who's going to handle
00:16:18
who so you go sit down with with Pablo
00:16:20
and say okay I'm handling I don't go see
00:16:22
clients I got to go see this guy that
00:16:24
kills me that's my point I can't work in
00:16:26
the jail I don't hear well there I'm
00:16:28
going to go I don't need anybody else I
00:16:30
mean we don't need the whole team for
00:16:32
that I'm going to sit there and we'll do
00:16:33
it again later but I'm going to work up
00:16:35
Foy for whoever whoever's doing it'll
00:16:38
all be organized it'll be nice every
00:16:40
thought that Pablo has had for 22 years
00:16:43
about Foy will be considered it was
00:16:46
going to be me and Allan Al and I
00:16:50
thought he would live a little longer
00:16:52
than he did I was very surprised to hear
00:16:54
he passed but you know cancer does that
00:16:57
it it was sad
00:16:59
I really felt bad because he's such a
00:17:00
good lawyer and we lost him on this case
00:17:03
Allen's knowledge of the case equal only
00:17:06
Pablos and Allan put everything together
00:17:09
for me he was just a genius at that so
00:17:10
he's a huge loss to this
00:17:12
case I have read every single
00:17:15
transcript of all the
00:17:17
trials I've already know the facts
00:17:20
inside out I've got to put them in a
00:17:22
place where I want them because with
00:17:25
Allen dying I've got to be prepared to
00:17:28
do everything everything I'm more
00:17:29
familiar with the case than
00:17:31
anybody good morning Mr Foy good morning
00:17:36
so let's talk about then what you saw
00:17:39
getting in my van I was pulling out and
00:17:41
I was going up the street and I was
00:17:42
looking ahead of me and I saw two guys
00:17:44
getting in the car in front of Mr
00:17:47
Casey's house
00:17:49
um
00:17:50
describe how he appeared to you that day
00:17:53
through those periods that you were able
00:17:56
to observe it youngest white male
00:17:59
black hair short crew cut like a marine
00:18:01
cut scruffy face
00:18:04
looking did you identify any of the
00:18:07
photographs on July 15th in what's label
00:18:11
as lineup a which is now 6 yes I did um
00:18:15
they're number one two and three at the
00:18:17
top photos and then photos four five and
00:18:19
six at the bottom was one and five you
00:18:21
picked one and five you pick two photos
00:18:27
yeah
00:18:37
generally what police do is that they
00:18:40
select people who look remotely like the
00:18:43
suspect rather than select people who
00:18:46
match the
00:18:52
description Foyd tells the
00:18:54
police the passenger had a scruffy face
00:18:57
two people in the lineup have scruffy
00:19:00
faces the other four people don't if Foy
00:19:04
doesn't consider the other four
00:19:06
people functionally there are not six
00:19:09
people in the lineup and as it turns out
00:19:13
Foy says well I'm not sure if it's one
00:19:16
photograph or or the other photograph
00:19:18
but the two photographs that he
00:19:20
identifies both have scruffy faces you
00:19:23
can't be very confident and say it's one
00:19:26
of these two people
00:19:30
you recognize uh that photo yes I do and
00:19:34
is that a photo of the live lineup that
00:19:37
you asked to attend yes that was yep and
00:19:41
then did you pick out any individual in
00:19:42
that lineup number four you particularly
00:19:46
told the
00:19:47
police number one and number five were
00:19:51
persons that might have committed a
00:19:53
murder yeah and then when you went to
00:19:58
had live lineup isn't it true the only
00:20:01
person there was number five the scruffy
00:20:05
face person that you saw in the first
00:20:08
photo
00:20:10
lineup well he was there yeah was number
00:20:13
one there no I don't recall that but
00:20:15
what I did recall was number five was
00:20:18
there and he wasn't scruffy
00:20:22
anymore when Mr Floyd did the live
00:20:25
lineup identification you know lo and
00:20:27
behold picture that we had of Mr iar
00:20:30
he's got the same haircut he's got the
00:20:31
same mustache lo and behold the day you
00:20:34
know the day of the live lineup where
00:20:36
you bring Foy in Mr iar changes his
00:20:39
appearance is that a
00:20:41
coincidence the only person in the live
00:20:44
lineup that he saw in the photo array
00:20:47
was Pablo so how do we know that what he
00:20:51
really did was choose the person that he
00:20:54
saw the M of the murders or is what
00:20:58
really happened is he choose chose the
00:21:00
person that he saw in the photo array
00:21:03
and that's that's the question and we
00:21:05
think that the answer is
00:21:13
clear all right you ever testify
00:21:16
differently I don't know maybe could
00:21:18
have been all right it's been a lot of
00:21:20
years a lot of years and several
00:21:24
testimonies and and what are you saying
00:21:25
you change your testimony every time no
00:21:27
I just don't know I ask you if you ever
00:21:29
testified different yes or no do you
00:21:31
recall no I don't recall you you've got
00:21:33
the testimony let me see what I
00:21:36
said maybe I testify maybe I did it it's
00:21:39
been too many years I don't know maybe
00:21:42
I've testified so many times I
00:21:45
understand that we'll get to that a
00:21:46
little bit Yeah there people's memories
00:21:48
change over time and also Gary foy's
00:21:51
memory changed about what he thought he
00:21:54
told the police so sometimes he said he
00:21:56
thought he told the police one one thing
00:21:59
and other times he thought he had told
00:22:01
the police something else I I don't
00:22:03
think he was lying but memory is not a
00:22:06
perfect machine so I'm not surprised to
00:22:08
see that his memory changed over
00:22:12
time yeah he has to do cuz benel swears
00:22:16
that he would never show up
00:22:18
yeah we got to take a break yeah explain
00:22:22
it to him Che
00:22:26
yes can I have 3 minutes
00:22:28
abely let's take 10 ask him for 10 H ask
00:22:32
him for 10 what let's take 10 J can we
00:22:36
take 10 cuz I they want to go over a
00:22:37
couple things ladies and Gentlemen let's
00:22:39
have you step back in the Jury Room for
00:22:40
a couple minutes please leave your old
00:22:42
pads on your
00:22:48
[Music]
00:22:56
chair
00:22:59
so if people select somebody from a
00:23:01
lineup because this person looks
00:23:04
familiar but he looks familiar because
00:23:07
you've seen this person's photograph
00:23:09
before that's a problem that that
00:23:12
increases the likelihood of identifying
00:23:15
that person even if that's not the
00:23:17
criminal I think it's clear they Tim me
00:23:20
showed you some photographs right that
00:23:21
was on a flyer am I correct yes they
00:23:24
should here's where here's where you get
00:23:25
him before he does the photo lineup
00:23:28
right so he says they show me they were
00:23:29
blurry they they wearing hats they
00:23:31
weren't looking they were looking down
00:23:33
looking down wearing a
00:23:36
hat but how do we know and then he says
00:23:39
ultimately you
00:23:40
to ultimately you asked to do a live
00:23:43
lineup yes before that they showed me 10
00:23:45
mugs the 10 mugs are separate from the
00:23:47
blurry frows with the hats that doesn't
00:23:49
mean that he saw this that's we're going
00:23:51
to going to bite Us in the ass we're
00:23:54
going to
00:23:55
get where's the other where's the other
00:23:58
black and white sketch it's in the file
00:24:00
it's right there where's where's the
00:24:03
quote there it's it's page 19 and
00:24:08
20 I can't be that it's only 12
00:24:12
Pages it's probably number four but he
00:24:15
says in he says in his testimony
00:24:17
somewhere that they go how some Pap does
00:24:21
it help right now does that help what
00:24:24
help I'd say number four I mean
00:24:29
there's nothing it's no more clear he
00:24:31
picked number four I like Pablo he knows
00:24:35
everything about the case he knows every
00:24:37
bit of the testimony he knows everything
00:24:39
that I understand how it is he's anxious
00:24:43
he's nervous PE anybody would be but uh
00:24:47
I'm going to do it the way I think it's
00:24:49
best to do
00:24:51
it we can't switch up right know we
00:24:56
has if he claims an
00:25:00
illness yeah we could switch
00:25:02
on I'll do it if you
00:25:05
want huh okay yeah they're going to be
00:25:07
direct
00:25:08
anyway but he didn't knowbody he's
00:25:11
brought out the facts of I don't want it
00:25:14
coming
00:25:24
out what he worried about
00:25:29
you know we I think we would need a
00:25:30
little more than just that Fred's been
00:25:33
on the case for years and he's been
00:25:36
preparing for that cross what happened
00:25:39
what happened to all your transcripts
00:25:40
you just walked up there with him did
00:25:42
you bring the wrong ones he doesn't know
00:25:44
if he saw the fire before after just do
00:25:46
the way he says it he sees something
00:25:48
blurry when Fred was 50 he was like the
00:25:51
best at that sharp I mean you'd watch
00:25:53
him and just go wow that was fantastic
00:25:57
he knows
00:26:00
everything it's hard to tell this is not
00:26:02
easy stuff I mean Fred is getting
00:26:09
[Music]
00:26:16
old is Fred going to keep going or are
00:26:18
you guys switching or something there's
00:26:20
no switching you can't switch there one
00:26:21
lawyer one wit but if anybody can do it
00:26:24
it's
00:26:26
in
00:26:28
I can't find it in
00:26:42
my whenever you're ready judge I bring
00:26:45
in the
00:26:46
[Music]
00:26:56
jury
00:27:01
Joe Fred totally bodged Foy I mean he
00:27:05
doesn't have any of the transcript
00:27:07
straight I mean how do you how do you
00:27:09
come in here at at the moment of truth
00:27:12
and he he don't know what the
00:27:14
transcripts say it is it is it is what
00:27:17
it is but I'm just saying he didn't get
00:27:19
that we we know we miss some points the
00:27:22
jury has no idea all right before you
00:27:25
were shown that photographic lineup
00:27:28
were you shown shown a
00:27:31
flyer not to my
00:27:37
reconnection let me show you your
00:27:39
testimony who is this from That's from
00:27:42
the grand jury they never showed me a
00:27:44
flyer okay so your testimony here is
00:27:47
incorrect that they showed you a flyer
00:27:48
at some point can I see that it never
00:27:50
says they showed me a
00:27:55
flyer all right they showed did that was
00:27:58
on a flyer am I correct that no no let's
00:28:01
read up here let's read okay I tried to
00:28:03
make a composite they didn't really have
00:28:05
a lot they didn't have anything
00:28:06
ultimately they showed you some
00:28:07
photographs right that was on a flyer am
00:28:11
I correct that was Mr Morton asking you
00:28:13
do you remember seeing that yes they
00:28:16
showed me something and I said well I
00:28:18
know you it could be I didn't really
00:28:20
know very blurry and they all looked
00:28:22
like they were wearing hats would that
00:28:24
be what they showed
00:28:26
you
00:28:28
yeah something like that I guess I don't
00:28:30
know okay all right that was before you
00:28:32
saw the photo lineup right and
00:28:37
then again this is the document I just
00:28:39
show you correct yeah can you show that
00:28:41
to the jury not yet not yet no cuz you
00:28:44
can't tell anything judge I you can't
00:28:46
tell anything out of this it's so blurry
00:28:49
excuse me don't try that again what you
00:28:51
don't show anything to the jury the
00:28:52
attorney's handle
00:28:55
that all right yes sir
00:28:59
any further questions on
00:29:12
Cross Fred is a very successful very
00:29:16
good trial
00:29:18
lawyer his methods are
00:29:21
unique Fred is not somebody who's going
00:29:25
to write out a cross-examination
00:29:28
Fred doesn't want to hear from the
00:29:29
client he's not going to sit there and
00:29:32
tell you this is what I'm going to say
00:29:35
he's not going to go through the cross
00:29:36
examination Point by point he doesn't do
00:29:38
that he hasn't done it for 45 years he's
00:29:41
not going to start now we're the
00:29:43
lawyers you know this is our case and I
00:29:47
like Pablo but you I'm not having
00:29:49
somebody tell me what to do I've been
00:29:51
doing this
00:29:52
forever and uh I'll listen to him but
00:29:55
you know when you have 50 family members
00:29:58
sitting around telling you what to do
00:30:00
it's
00:30:15
difficult I feel like sometimes I don't
00:30:18
know if Fred really wants to be in this
00:30:20
because he has told us he's read
00:30:21
everything which frankly I don't believe
00:30:25
what have you really done you you read
00:30:28
and I know it's a lot to read but is
00:30:31
that worth everything we've paid you I
00:30:33
don't think so we didn't pay you just to
00:30:35
read we would be
00:30:38
stupid I don't know if he's angry or
00:30:41
he's mad does he want more money and
00:30:43
that's what makes him feel this way I
00:30:44
don't know how do I know he doesn't get
00:30:46
upset and then goes to say something to
00:30:48
the state because he's pissed up you
00:30:51
know what I'm saying to give our tactic
00:30:53
or because I don't know he just doesn't
00:30:55
seem happy right now
00:30:58
to be honest in the end if worse comes
00:31:00
to worse we're really going to have to
00:31:01
rely on Joe and Benji that is my only
00:31:04
saving
00:31:05
grace I don't
00:31:08
know I just do a lot of praying a lot of
00:31:17
praying Pablo I'm going to put you on
00:31:20
speaker phone is that okay PB Benji's
00:31:23
here and I'm on my house phone so he can
00:31:26
hear I don't care about who had a better
00:31:30
career who career started who hasn't
00:31:32
done that what I care about is winning
00:31:35
this cage and the Fred had that today is
00:31:39
not a person that I look at and say to
00:31:42
myself you're the best attorney in the
00:31:46
room I don't know what he used to be
00:31:48
before but the one that that I've had in
00:31:50
this Tri I'm not impressed but I would I
00:31:53
wouldn't I can imagine how he won all
00:31:55
these cases and he had this career he
00:31:57
had because what he's done in my Cas has
00:32:00
not been has not been up to my standards
00:32:02
let alone maybe an attorney standards
00:32:05
and I'm worried I'm worried that he's
00:32:07
telling me he's going to do this he's
00:32:09
telling me he's going to do that I I I
00:32:10
went over things with him and then when
00:32:12
he gets up there he just goes again and
00:32:13
does his own ad live ad live and then we
00:32:16
we don't get a whole bunch of stuff and
00:32:17
I am very worried about that I care
00:32:19
about showing the jury explaining to the
00:32:22
jury in
00:32:24
detail why you should find me not guilty
00:32:27
so you have a decision to
00:32:29
make I don't know I don't I
00:32:34
don't with Fred I don't know
00:32:37
man they didn't get the
00:32:39
cross-examination they expected from
00:32:41
Manzel and Foy so we see this breakdown
00:32:45
that the confidence that either Pablo or
00:32:48
the family have in
00:32:50
Fred that was the I probably the only
00:32:53
time or first time in his career where
00:32:54
someone said you're not getting up
00:32:57
I got a text message that Tanya decided
00:33:00
Jo was going to do cleto I said hey you
00:33:04
guys brought me that up with you
00:33:05
normally I would I would have fought
00:33:06
with them all but I'm not going to sit
00:33:07
there and get into a fight with with you
00:33:10
know my own client and the others if I
00:33:13
have to do it I will but uh Joe's going
00:33:15
to cross-examine him so that's where it
00:33:24
[Music]
00:33:25
is
00:33:28
[Music]
00:33:48
white male white shirt with a white H
00:33:50
over his head
00:33:55
back I was three more
00:33:59
shots1
00:34:06
751 the Miami day home invasion is one
00:34:09
thing that's probably the most unknown
00:34:12
fact about this case that most people
00:34:14
don't know about that no the jury can't
00:34:16
know that that's
00:34:18
prejudicial they had not a clue that the
00:34:21
person who was standing before them
00:34:23
Pablo iar was sitting in a Miami date
00:34:26
jail for a home invasion 2 weeks after
00:34:29
he killed my sister the jury was never
00:34:31
told that and they can't be told
00:34:34
that I don't know how
00:34:36
somebody commits a crime like that and
00:34:38
then a few weeks later goes and does
00:34:40
almost the same exact thing like we
00:34:43
don't know if the cops didn't come if
00:34:44
those people would have
00:34:47
lived he just got caught that time and
00:34:50
who knows how many times he did it
00:34:51
before not getting
00:34:54
caught if you're thinking about it it in
00:34:56
a trial for the for the Miramar
00:34:58
murders they shouldn't be able to bring
00:35:00
in any other bad acts that Pablo may
00:35:03
have done cuz that doesn't prove whether
00:35:04
or not he did this crime right you don't
00:35:07
want the jury to assume well because you
00:35:10
did one other home invasion you must
00:35:12
have done this
00:35:18
one there's one uh positive invocational
00:35:22
uh shoe print of was a property of
00:35:24
Francisco R and could have been the
00:35:27
footboard that made the impression his
00:35:29
other buddy his other roommate was
00:35:30
wearing these and then his second
00:35:32
roommate was wearing these these are the
00:35:33
ones that were taken from
00:35:36
ringcom his friend when they were
00:35:39
arrested in Miami during the course of
00:35:41
the robbery these were removed from him
00:35:43
during the other
00:35:45
robery if you look at a picture of
00:35:47
Francisco ranone from 1994 look like the
00:35:50
guy in the video he also looks like it
00:35:52
it could be him and that could explain
00:35:55
some other things the weak weak weak
00:35:58
week weak sample that they say matches
00:36:00
Pablo on that blue t-shirt so maybe the
00:36:02
contamination doesn't happen in the lab
00:36:04
it happens in the Lee Street house maybe
00:36:07
the murderers are people who hang out at
00:36:09
the Lee Street house but not Pablo but
00:36:11
they never bothered to investigate it
00:36:14
was actually the uh defense in Seth pen
00:36:16
Al's case that uh ring con was the the
00:36:18
other person at the scene his lawyer
00:36:21
Hillyard maldol argued that the person
00:36:23
in the Hat in the sunglasses was Ren KH
00:36:26
con not p
00:36:27
and the shoe prints matched that guy's
00:36:29
wearing the shoes from the
00:36:32
murder how did we not convict that how
00:36:35
do we not bring that guy
00:36:37
in the cops were n doesn't look like him
00:36:40
what do they know that guy's wearing the
00:36:42
shoes from the murder
00:36:46
a
00:36:50
[Music]
00:36:55
crazy
00:37:02
[Music]
00:37:06
State your full name spelling your whole
00:37:08
name for the record my name is Francisco
00:37:11
[Music]
00:37:17
Alon uh I want to talk
00:37:20
about uh your relationship with Mr ebar
00:37:24
and how it developed once you met him
00:37:27
you said that was in what year did you
00:37:28
meet him in
00:37:29
93 and how did your relationship develop
00:37:32
with from 199 mostly uh parties and went
00:37:37
to parties and clubs together was Casey
00:37:40
Nickelodeon one of those clubs it
00:37:43
was are you familiar with a home or a
00:37:48
house I'm just going to record to as the
00:37:51
Le Street house yes
00:37:55
sir it's a party house every night there
00:37:58
was girls in that house and a different
00:38:00
group of guys but the main group was
00:38:03
Pablo E bar uh Seth penol Francisco Ren
00:38:06
con for short and Jee clco imagine a
00:38:09
group of four or five 20-some year old
00:38:11
guys they're not married they don't have
00:38:13
kids you know they're not really working
00:38:15
full-time jobs so they're hanging out
00:38:19
smoking some weed drinking alcohol going
00:38:21
out to the bars and nightclubs at night
00:38:23
working girls home that's it night after
00:38:26
after night after
00:38:32
night if he's going to handle the
00:38:34
evidence to his gloves on the table okay
00:38:36
I'm not going to take it out of the bag
00:38:38
um just want to to show the
00:38:41
bottom the shoes that appears to have a
00:38:43
basketball player on it see those shoes
00:38:46
yes okay do you know if you've ever had
00:38:49
those shoes on I probably have I
00:38:52
probably did where did you get those
00:38:54
shoes those shoes I didn't I the shoes
00:38:57
weren't mine I I never bought them shoes
00:39:00
uh we used to we used to wear clothes we
00:39:02
to change each other's clothes uh before
00:39:04
we went out so I probably bought them
00:39:06
shoes from APO I'm not sure who whose
00:39:08
shoes they
00:39:09
were did other people wear each other's
00:39:12
clothing in that house during that time
00:39:14
yes
00:39:15
sir would that include shoes also
00:39:18
everything
00:39:21
[Music]
00:39:25
yes the tend to prove that Pao Community
00:39:27
crime it tends to prove that ring
00:39:29
Community crime bad though of course it
00:39:32
is it is potentially difficult evidence
00:39:35
for us though because if you think about
00:39:38
it there's no reason for any evidence in
00:39:42
the Le Street house to match up with the
00:39:44
crime
00:39:46
[Music]
00:39:55
scene
00:40:19
take a look at
00:40:21
this portion of the video from stat
00:40:25
exhibit
00:40:27
I see the person that's uh in front
00:40:30
there walking out shirt see that sir I
00:40:34
do is that you sir that's not
00:40:40
me they were Pablo was upset cuz R con
00:40:42
came and he said that he didn't commit
00:40:43
the murders of course you know that was
00:40:46
the stupidest question I've ever heard
00:40:47
asked of a witness did you is that you
00:40:49
in the video committing the murders no
00:40:52
of course not
00:40:53
it ring con's testimony was horrible for
00:40:56
the defense R con came in as a good
00:40:58
friend of Pablo's uh and put the shoes
00:41:00
on Pablo's feet uh our defense was going
00:41:04
to be yeah the shoes match but they're
00:41:07
not Pablo's shoes they're RN cones RN
00:41:10
con looks like the guy in the
00:41:12
video Ren con lives in a Lee Street
00:41:15
house where there was a tech 9 he's the
00:41:17
alternate
00:41:20
suspect so Mr
00:41:25
ringcon did you have anything to do with
00:41:27
the deaths Academy of Sakari Sharon
00:41:30
Anderson re Rogers any of those three
00:41:32
people killed in Mr sar's home no sir
00:41:34
were you there involved present no sir
00:41:37
any way did you help out a plan in any
00:41:38
way no
00:41:41
way I don't have any further questions
00:41:44
thank you cross
00:41:51
examination I don't think
00:41:55
you what are you saying saying don't ask
00:41:58
him anything I can't hear you don't ask
00:42:00
him anything I'm thinking maybe why
00:42:04
because all he can do is hurt us he
00:42:06
didn't hurt us at all right and there
00:42:09
you okay with that Pablo's not okay with
00:42:12
that you go ahead what we can ask
00:42:15
him PA of sh whatever you ask him is
00:42:19
going to hurt you he didn't
00:42:22
identify I why want to ask is that I
00:42:27
no Jesus
00:42:30
Christ he identify he's he told
00:42:34
me for real boo this is no
00:42:41
questions you
00:42:43
heard H it's too
00:42:46
dangerous what do you think he's going
00:42:48
to
00:42:51
say cross examination we have no
00:42:54
questions if you would let Mr rone know
00:42:56
that that we may recall him uh in our
00:42:58
case but we have no questions at this
00:43:00
time Pablo gets very caught up he
00:43:03
believes that people are going to do
00:43:06
what in his mind is the right thing so
00:43:09
if we stand up and ask ring con is that
00:43:11
Pablo in the video Pablo knows Ren con
00:43:14
is going to say no but we don't know
00:43:17
that we know he probably for
00:43:19
self-preservation is going to say yeah
00:43:21
that's Pablo in the
00:43:23
video right so he want us to
00:43:26
cross-examine R con there was nothing to
00:43:28
gain from asking him questions it would
00:43:30
only have gotten worse because we're
00:43:32
sure the prosecutors told Rin con that
00:43:34
we were going to blame him for the
00:43:36
murders so he was there to help
00:43:50
himself did you want to talk to him yeah
00:43:53
go ahead no I want I want to talk to him
00:43:55
alone would do you want to talk I'm to
00:43:58
Pablo's lawyer just going to ask you
00:44:00
what your phone number was so I could
00:44:02
call you and talk to you on the phone
00:44:04
number
00:44:06
anything you you need to stay here for a
00:44:09
few minutes because I'm going to tell
00:44:10
the judge what Mr Morton's doing right
00:44:13
now Mr Sinclair man want to take that
00:44:16
exhibit
00:44:18
down judge before you leave I I I got a
00:44:21
small issue on the yeah we need it on
00:44:25
the record
00:44:26
let's have Mr ringcon come in
00:44:31
please morning Mr ringcon want you to
00:44:33
grab the witness stand again please I
00:44:36
apologize for bringing you back
00:44:42
in you're still under roath Mr Ron okay
00:44:45
Mr KCK uh sure Mr R con uh I followed
00:44:49
you out as you were walking out so I
00:44:51
could get your phone number so that we
00:44:52
could call and talk to you later on the
00:44:54
defense team on Mr iar's team uh you
00:44:56
understand that correct uh you refuse to
00:44:59
do that explain to the court why you
00:45:01
refus to speak to me I don't refuse I
00:45:04
just want I want Mr Chuck to be pres
00:45:07
okay do you believe that he represents
00:45:08
you somehow no but I just rather have
00:45:11
him you have some kind of deal or
00:45:12
agreement with Mr Morton I do not uh so
00:45:15
basically you're saying you refuse to
00:45:16
talk to any defense attorneys on the
00:45:18
case unless Mr Morton personally is
00:45:20
present with you correct correct correct
00:45:23
okay how many times have you talked to
00:45:24
Mr Morton about the case today and so
00:45:28
you just showed up and you had a meeting
00:45:30
with him this morning correct all right
00:45:32
uh did he assure you that you're not
00:45:33
going to be charged with anything in the
00:45:35
case no he did not uh did he tell you
00:45:37
that you're just a witness in the case
00:45:39
you told me I was a witness yes okay uh
00:45:42
if you were informed by the judge now
00:45:43
that uh both sides have the right to
00:45:45
talk to you anytime that they want that
00:45:48
there is no requirement that Mr Morton
00:45:50
be present with you that that's not true
00:45:53
uh would you be able to understand and
00:45:54
follow that instruction from the court
00:45:56
first of all did anybody ever say that
00:45:58
that that I had to be present no you did
00:46:00
I tell you that it's your choice if you
00:46:02
wanted yes choose to speak to anybody
00:46:03
you want to defense and and and after he
00:46:07
said that and refused to walk away
00:46:09
that's when you refused to speak to me
00:46:12
correct correct okay no further
00:46:15
questions all right thank you Mr record
00:46:16
I appreciate it accept that I let the
00:46:18
ref record reflect that the witness
00:46:20
walked outside with Mr Morton he's not
00:46:22
present uh he's again giving him more
00:46:24
instructions but there is no requirement
00:46:26
that he be present uh in any contact
00:46:28
that I have with this person I have the
00:46:30
same access as the prosecutor's office
00:46:33
and you can see that I'm being
00:46:35
restricted my understanding is he's not
00:46:37
refusing contact with you he's refusing
00:46:38
to talk to any member of the defense
00:46:40
team without the State president why
00:46:41
does he need the protection of Mr Morton
00:46:44
personally on this case what has he been
00:46:50
told uh this this is I I would submit
00:46:53
this is misconduct I think this is the
00:46:54
way they handle all their Witness I
00:46:56
think all of their Witnesses are told
00:46:58
not to cooperate with the defense uh the
00:47:00
court knows that this is this is illegal
00:47:03
it's a bad I don't find any evidence of
00:47:05
them instructing the witness in any way
00:47:07
that's
00:47:08
inappropriate the witness is saying I
00:47:10
don't want to talk to the defense
00:47:11
without the state there so what was the
00:47:13
problem then of my walking up and asking
00:47:14
for the guy's phone number why was I not
00:47:16
allowed to do that by Mr Morton why did
00:47:19
he interrupt my sentence and tell the
00:47:22
witness you don't have to speak to
00:47:24
anybody unless a member of the process
00:47:26
unless I am present with you are you
00:47:28
asking me to do anything at this point
00:47:30
yes I'm I'm moving for administra at
00:47:32
this point in the trial the mode for
00:47:34
mist trial is
00:47:36
[Music]
00:47:46
[Music]
00:47:48
denied we had no idea where ringen was
00:47:51
coming no idea I was a
00:47:54
surprise
00:47:56
we were
00:47:57
told through third parties from the ebar
00:48:00
family that BR coh's not helping the
00:48:03
prosecution um so we stayed away from
00:48:07
them there was no obstruction at all the
00:48:09
judge found that there was no
00:48:10
obstruction a witness is entitled to
00:48:13
talk to anybody he wants to and in fact
00:48:15
that was my instruction to him you want
00:48:16
to talk to Mr culich uh fine anytime you
00:48:20
want to just remember you have the right
00:48:22
to have uh the state attorney present
00:48:25
during those conversations if you want
00:48:27
to so at no time did I ever say do not
00:48:30
talk to Kevin KCK I can't explain to the
00:48:34
witness his or her rights that's what I
00:48:36
did explained his rights to him he
00:48:39
understood apparently Mr K didn't like
00:48:43
it Chuck is uh still a very very tough
00:48:48
competitor he plays to win uh in past
00:48:51
trials with Chuck I would say that uh if
00:48:54
I had a weak judge a judge who didn't
00:48:56
really know the law that well uh chuck
00:48:59
would affirmatively move in and stop the
00:49:02
judge from making a mistake when he knew
00:49:04
it was going to be reversible error
00:49:05
Chuck actually did that a couple of
00:49:07
times
00:49:08
today you know Pablo was shocked that
00:49:10
his friend Francisco Ren con flipped on
00:49:13
him and I think what he forgets is that
00:49:14
people always care about themselves
00:49:17
first right no matter what relationship
00:49:19
you think you have with somebody their
00:49:21
relationship with themselves is always
00:49:23
much more important so when Ren con
00:49:25
believe they have something to gain to
00:49:27
help themselves they're going to change
00:49:29
their
00:49:39
testimony don't let the jury no judge I
00:49:42
don't see that you know it had any
00:49:45
effect on
00:49:47
us it's just just
00:49:49
BS just full of
00:49:51
crap they're always going to present
00:49:53
stuff that hurts us I mean you've been
00:49:55
there you've done on us and everybody
00:49:56
gets down about it what you do you know
00:49:59
you don't get down about it you just
00:50:00
fight
00:50:02
back think we're losing right
00:50:07
now
00:50:09
huh ask me after
00:50:12
clco were you sure right away that that
00:50:14
was Pablo on that tape yeah someone you
00:50:18
hang out with you know what I'm saying
00:50:20
you see them on tape
00:50:22
shocking the history of of Pablo and Jee
00:50:25
k is they were friends clco gets out of
00:50:28
prison Pablo takes him in lets him live
00:50:30
in the Lee Street house and he finds out
00:50:34
kesco is stealing from me and kesco was
00:50:37
taking drugs at the time and you know he
00:50:39
was in a in a rough time so he kicked
00:50:41
him out of the
00:50:42
house my name is from T SS i e r have
00:50:47
you ever been known by uh another last
00:50:49
name yes
00:50:54
clco
00:50:57
while growing up did you ever come to
00:50:59
know a person by the name of Pablo ibah
00:51:01
yes do you see Mr iar in the courtroom
00:51:04
today yes I do would you point him out
00:51:06
and describe what he's wearing for us
00:51:07
pleas uh he's wearing a blue
00:51:10
suit okay what was your relationship
00:51:13
with him at that
00:51:15
time like I said at first we were just
00:51:17
acquaintances and then we became friends
00:51:19
eventually we became very
00:51:21
close did you live with Mr eard in any
00:51:25
time well he let me uh he let me sleep
00:51:28
on his couch there for for a couple of a
00:51:32
week or 10 days do you
00:51:35
recognize uh this style of
00:51:39
gun this one what do you recognize that
00:51:42
to be what kind of
00:51:44
gun tech 9 you ever handled handled a
00:51:48
gun like that before
00:51:50
yes when and
00:51:52
where at Pablo's house on Lee Street
00:51:57
when you live with yes did you have any
00:52:01
information that may be relevant to this
00:52:03
case
00:52:05
yes tell us basically then what do you
00:52:11
know
00:52:13
um that morning uh the Sunday morning
00:52:18
they came in in the middle of the night
00:52:20
close to the morning Pablo went into the
00:52:23
into his bedroom and he came out
00:52:26
asking where was the tech uh where was
00:52:30
the
00:52:31
tech it's normally under the under his
00:52:34
bed in the case but I had it that
00:52:36
evening uh you've never said this before
00:52:39
have you no you've testified in many
00:52:44
proceedings PRI proceedings or several
00:52:46
PRI proceedings to this correct yes this
00:52:48
is the first time you sang that yeah why
00:52:51
I really just didn't want to be that
00:52:54
close to
00:52:56
a murder I didn't
00:52:58
really thought maybe I somehow I could
00:53:01
be implicated for holding a murder
00:53:03
weapon you know very shortly
00:53:05
before uh this happened U so continue
00:53:08
you said uh fa ebar as you where was the
00:53:11
gun how did you
00:53:13
respond I said I've got it I had it on
00:53:16
me and uh he's demanded to have it which
00:53:19
I gave it to him and uh then they left
00:53:25
they who is that Pablo and Seth left
00:53:27
with the tech
00:53:33
9 what is he standing there at 5: in the
00:53:36
morning holding the tech 9 in his hands
00:53:40
and then he hands it over them that's
00:53:42
what his testimony was and it's just
00:53:45
it's unbelievable and so you have to say
00:53:48
how does that just come forward 24 years
00:53:51
later for the first time when we know
00:53:53
that the state had access to him and we
00:53:56
don't know what that's about what what
00:53:59
happens in those conversations and and
00:54:01
I'm not I'm not saying that anything
00:54:04
unted or improper went on but why does
00:54:10
he do that today why is it changing and
00:54:13
I think I think he was shown to be a
00:54:15
liar in the past he was shown to have
00:54:18
lied at the trial and I think for him
00:54:22
once a liar always a liar
00:54:26
[Music]
00:54:51
uh
00:54:53
125 this is the video so taking a look
00:54:56
at this video where I've stopped this
00:54:58
video at
00:55:01
4.07 you recognize the person in that
00:55:03
video yes you point to it and describe
00:55:07
who that person
00:55:14
is that's
00:55:16
Pablo Pablo ebar yes the same man you've
00:55:20
identified here in the courtroom today
00:55:24
yes sh
00:55:27
[Music]
00:55:54
my
00:55:58
[Music]
00:56:06
[Music]
