00:00:00
since time began we found ways to settle
00:00:02
our differences this town ain't big
00:00:04
enough for the both of us what you
00:00:08
heard looks pretty darn spacious to me
00:00:12
there ain't nothing but space but today
00:00:15
we don't shoot it out we bet it out
00:00:17
right draw right jockey man those one
00:00:20
shoots out the
00:00:25
gate bet it out with beta r18 bet
00:00:29
responsibly
00:00:36
serviceman Jay welcome to my podcast how
00:00:38
are you thank you very much for having
00:00:39
me on M I'm uh I'm um absolutely honored
00:00:43
uh to have you here today um I'm fizzing
00:00:45
to get into this I only got your book
00:00:48
serviceman Jay this morning so I'm I'm
00:00:50
yet to have more than a flick through it
00:00:51
but I've listened to so many podcasts
00:00:52
you've been on and um I'm I'm so
00:00:55
inspired by your story on my podcast I
00:00:57
uh tend to focus a lot on um you know
00:01:00
mental health and mental well-being and
00:01:02
I think for me that's part of the
00:01:03
inspiring thing about your story just um
00:01:05
the things that you've seen and done um
00:01:08
but just the work that you've done to be
00:01:10
the person that you are now and unpack
00:01:11
everything you've been through at the
00:01:12
back end of it it's inspirational
00:01:14
awesome thank you yeah looking forward
00:01:16
to unraveling it all yeah so um as I
00:01:19
said listen to a lot of podcasts um
00:01:21
there's a word that you use quite often
00:01:23
um like CL or cling clicking off cling
00:01:27
off what is that is that is that killing
00:01:29
someone no no clacking off is is like uh
00:01:32
someone who's wearing a suicide vest and
00:01:33
they have a you know they have a trigger
00:01:35
and they'll just you know detonate
00:01:37
themselves basically like people
00:01:38
clacking them off um and we encountered
00:01:40
a couple of those um on operations in
00:01:43
Afghanistan which was kind of the norm
00:01:45
over there to be honest uh as as bad as
00:01:48
it is but um yeah and when you're going
00:01:50
up against people like that um you know
00:01:54
you have to make sure you're you know
00:01:56
very careful and and not running to your
00:01:58
discs and uh
00:02:00
yeah just looking out for your mates and
00:02:02
uh making sure you're going to keep safe
00:02:04
all the way around because they'll
00:02:05
basically draw you in and then um try
00:02:08
and take as many as I can out um in the
00:02:10
explosion so yeah but just the the
00:02:13
frequency that you use this word like
00:02:15
it's just like
00:02:16
everyday like an everyday thing like
00:02:18
it's it's alarming the things you've
00:02:20
seen man yeah there a number of
00:02:22
operations so you know I guess early on
00:02:24
we're doing long range Patrols in the
00:02:26
desert and I guess we'll go into that
00:02:27
and then you know later on and the tours
00:02:29
we're doing um we're out in kabo in the
00:02:32
city and that was more close quar to
00:02:33
battle so we we're up up close and
00:02:35
personal so you have the New Zealand
00:02:37
gallantry star which is um the second
00:02:39
highest military honor uh that's from um
00:02:42
2011 where where is it this is something
00:02:44
I ask all the Olympians that I have on
00:02:46
the um sits in in a box in the shelf and
00:02:49
it come probably comes out once a year
00:02:51
if
00:02:52
that whatas on enac day a couple hours
00:02:56
yeah and that's about it and it goes
00:02:57
back into the box but um I'm not too
00:02:59
sure the olyp Olympians say but you know
00:03:01
for me the medal doesn't make the man or
00:03:04
the woman um at the end of the day it
00:03:06
just represents and sort of shows people
00:03:09
that understand what that metal looks
00:03:10
like um that's an experience that you've
00:03:13
been through um and that's what medals
00:03:15
represent we have been and you know
00:03:17
where you're recognized for stuff like
00:03:18
you know gallantry yeah but when when
00:03:21
you open up the door and you see it what
00:03:22
what do you feel you feel immense Pride
00:03:25
um do you do you feel like yes sad that
00:03:28
that chapter of your life would you seem
00:03:30
to love is it over or um I'm pretty
00:03:33
indifferent um like I said it's it's
00:03:36
just it's just at the end of the day you
00:03:39
know and I've said it before as you you
00:03:40
know in the number of the on the podcast
00:03:42
there that medal is a representation of
00:03:45
a team effort you know um at the end of
00:03:47
the day every single man and and that
00:03:50
was there that that night um should have
00:03:54
been recognized um but it doesn't always
00:03:56
work out that way because I don't
00:03:58
determine what that looks like I just
00:04:00
tell people you know what they've done
00:04:01
and they they see how that lines up
00:04:03
against the criteria so um yeah at the
00:04:05
end of the day I hold that for for
00:04:07
everyone as a leader and um as I said
00:04:10
before is that uh you know again it was
00:04:12
an A Team you know that made me look
00:04:13
good as a leader one of those one of
00:04:15
those uh situations and um yeah everyone
00:04:18
had to part part to play the success of
00:04:20
that operation yes so that's the the
00:04:22
gallantry Stars the second highest
00:04:23
military on um behind the the Victoria
00:04:25
Cross um what's what what's the
00:04:28
difference why didn't you get a Victoria
00:04:29
Cross
00:04:31
I again I don't make those decisions um
00:04:34
the it's whether or not you satisfy that
00:04:37
criteria I think with a Victoria Cross
00:04:39
um you know there has to be you know 90%
00:04:42
chance or higher that you've you could
00:04:44
have got killed in a particular action
00:04:47
um it has to be a significant action
00:04:48
whether it's something you know
00:04:50
offensively defensively or saving lives
00:04:53
um and yeah there there's levels to the
00:04:56
game so I guess I satisfied that that
00:04:58
level not the
00:05:01
90% sorry sorry j was 88% um so you got
00:05:05
that for the um the Intercontinental
00:05:07
incident yeah which is the 29th of June
00:05:09
2011 um where there were 19 Taliban at
00:05:12
the Intercontinental 20 civilians killed
00:05:15
um [ __ ] you must have been close to
00:05:16
getting the Vic
00:05:18
cross like it's a hell of a story and
00:05:20
you tell it so well and we'll get into
00:05:21
that but um it's um mate it's harrowing
00:05:25
it's terrifying yeah there's a lot in
00:05:27
that and do you want me to get into it
00:05:28
now no no no we'll get into pretty it
00:05:31
was pretty harrowing yeah it's um you
00:05:34
know those those spectacular attacks uh
00:05:36
Believe It or Not were were pretty
00:05:38
regular and um Regular enough to sort of
00:05:42
go oh okay you know um it's another
00:05:44
spectacular attack um but you know
00:05:47
there's always a huge loss of life and
00:05:49
um it's always done at a you know point
00:05:51
in time um of their choosing so that's a
00:05:55
surprise to everyone you know they don't
00:05:57
mind killing unarmed civilians you know
00:05:59
which is you know just I don't I I'm not
00:06:02
too sure what that mindset is all about
00:06:04
um and then you know at that point their
00:06:06
martys in their own eyes and um yeah
00:06:09
they're willing to die for their
00:06:11
cause so this photo that I've got here
00:06:14
um is is that from that day is that day
00:06:17
that's us coming out yeah and as you can
00:06:19
see like um really we should have been
00:06:21
masked up and we got a kick in the bum
00:06:23
for that but um you know we we were just
00:06:26
coming around those Vehicles there and
00:06:27
um all of a sudden you know the the all
00:06:30
these the pepperazzi were there
00:06:32
basically and they just started snapping
00:06:34
away on their cameras on Burst Mode when
00:06:36
we went in um you know they had an outer
00:06:39
quarter that was about 400 m away from
00:06:40
the hotel so we thought we had a bit of
00:06:42
clear clear ground but uh things changed
00:06:45
very quickly you see that photo um
00:06:47
obviously at the time it sucked for you
00:06:49
but what about now when you look at
00:06:51
it um when I look at it now I think uh
00:06:55
yeah I just look at a whole lot of um
00:06:58
stunned
00:07:00
um you know tied individuals um and when
00:07:02
I look at the the the look on the faces
00:07:05
um yeah I know why you know and um you
00:07:09
know now that I'm looking at it a
00:07:10
different perspective it's uh yeah very
00:07:12
interesting um particularly Steve you
00:07:14
know he had um done a lot in there um
00:07:19
he's the one that got shot on the side
00:07:20
of the and he had sh in his and around
00:07:23
his legs and his arms and his back which
00:07:25
you don't you don't see but um yeah and
00:07:29
uh yeah a couple other people who I know
00:07:30
what their roles were and I can see on
00:07:32
the looks of their faces um what they
00:07:34
had to go through as well so yeah very
00:07:36
very interesting I mean at this point
00:07:38
was it's still very procedural and um
00:07:40
you know the next part of the plan now
00:07:42
was to get people to hospital um and
00:07:45
yeah and we were supposed to go back to
00:07:48
camp but uh that didn't always go and
00:07:51
how how different are you now to that
00:07:52
person in the in the photo um yeah I
00:07:55
think night and day um and I guess we'll
00:07:58
get into transition but of taken some
00:08:01
steps to
00:08:02
really um delink myself from um that
00:08:07
particular person not all of it because
00:08:10
some stuff does you know help you um in
00:08:14
the civilian world and that and uh but a
00:08:17
lot of stuff needs to stay um
00:08:19
compartmentalized in in in in that
00:08:22
particular space are you you will get
00:08:23
into all that you you um you're sort of
00:08:25
downplaying it like you you've done the
00:08:27
[ __ ] work like no one and and no one
00:08:30
else can do it for you and I know
00:08:31
there's some some books that um you
00:08:32
swear by that have had a big part but um
00:08:34
I'm a I'm a reader myself and I know
00:08:36
that
00:08:37
um you can get good information from a
00:08:39
book but um a book can't change your
00:08:41
life you actually have to do the work
00:08:42
yourself and you've done all that and I
00:08:44
think that's something you should be
00:08:44
immensely proud of yeah thanks very much
00:08:46
yeah um just a couple of light ones
00:08:49
before we get into your backstory um
00:08:51
gaming like Call of Duty you you ever
00:08:54
you ever played that or not really no I
00:08:56
mean I think uh way back way back where
00:08:59
playing what is it mdal Gear Solid and
00:09:02
some of those older World War II games I
00:09:04
can't remember what they were called but
00:09:05
I wasn't really much of a gamer um yeah
00:09:08
any chance I got was uh skying to be
00:09:11
honest I started skying when I was 17 um
00:09:14
at of kypr flat there where it when it
00:09:16
was uh operating as a SC when was skying
00:09:19
Operation out there and then um yeah and
00:09:21
I just didn't look back I'm still doing
00:09:23
it now um but um fun yeah the funny
00:09:26
thing is I got into skydiving watching
00:09:27
Point Break You Know The Point Break
00:09:31
that probably that probably brought a
00:09:32
few people into the skydiving wood I saw
00:09:34
that saw the movie got the Yellow Pages
00:09:37
found out where the nearest drop zone
00:09:38
was called them on the landline you know
00:09:41
cell phones back then called them on the
00:09:42
landline oh yeah I'll go down there and
00:09:44
uh yeah pay for my first jump course and
00:09:46
uh yeah that's all she wrote I'm still
00:09:47
hooked that's um it's probably lucky cuz
00:09:50
from from what I um from what I've
00:09:52
learned about your story it's that you
00:09:53
were sort of at a Crossroads where you
00:09:54
could have gone off the rails um at that
00:09:56
point in your life before the military
00:09:58
um came along so you could have ended up
00:09:59
becoming a sky diver from Point Break or
00:10:01
a bank robber I could have yeah yeah
00:10:03
potentially yeah I know yeah it's crazy
00:10:06
just who you roll with and and I guess
00:10:08
you know I would have taken it to the E
00:10:10
degree uh regardless of which way way I
00:10:12
went so um again you know you don't know
00:10:15
uh spiritually I guess you know there's
00:10:18
plans for me that went going into the
00:10:20
darker side of the house so yeah crazy
00:10:22
um and John key as prime minister you
00:10:24
were like his um his bodyguard or for a
00:10:27
time yes I was his um personal
00:10:29
protection officer for the trip going
00:10:31
into Iraq and um yeah the p is the guy
00:10:34
that you kind of see on a shoulder so um
00:10:37
yeah had a bit of a um uh got to get to
00:10:40
know the man um good man uh what you see
00:10:43
is what you get as I've said before and
00:10:45
um yeah he good good to work with easy
00:10:48
easy going and uh Willie AATA the the um
00:10:51
the New Zealand with the VC were you you
00:10:53
you work together quite intensely were
00:10:55
you s were you sort of his boss or um
00:10:58
not really we were sort of rank coming
00:11:00
through um and that and um and yeah
00:11:04
we're in the same Squadron so we' been
00:11:06
on operations together we on a couple of
00:11:07
operations together did a lot of
00:11:09
training together so yeah we knew each
00:11:10
other pretty well what's um yeah what's
00:11:14
will the Willie apata that we don't see
00:11:16
like because whenever I see him it's on
00:11:17
the TV um he's very softly spoken uh
00:11:20
very quiet very humble but you must have
00:11:22
seen the The Savage side of him I guess
00:11:24
yeah yeah I mean the man's he's a man
00:11:26
Mountain he's very strong you know um
00:11:28
he's uh yeah um he does he can do the
00:11:33
work he's um yeah definitely a family
00:11:37
orientated individual um squared away um
00:11:41
obviously he's demonstrated his courage
00:11:43
there um and that kind of thing but um
00:11:45
yeah you'll drink any man under the
00:11:46
table I know that you'll go for days if
00:11:48
you need to uh he's definitely
00:11:50
demonstrated that but um yeah you'll
00:11:52
know well he's in the room cuz he's got
00:11:54
quite a significant laugh um and he's
00:11:56
always joking around um that kind of
00:11:59
thing but uh you know the VC I'm sure uh
00:12:03
has changed him over the years you know
00:12:05
um initially there was a bit of shocker
00:12:07
capture if you like you know when he was
00:12:09
brought out in front of the media which
00:12:11
is very difficult for any SAS Soldier to
00:12:14
do at that at that point point in time
00:12:16
you know in his life um as as I'm sure
00:12:19
the uh you know the public would have
00:12:20
seen and um but now I think he's really
00:12:23
grown into that that role um and how
00:12:26
significant um that medal is for New
00:12:28
Zealand
00:12:29
and you know I guess the work he's doing
00:12:31
out there is um yeah is is is hitting
00:12:35
the mark with different people have have
00:12:37
you in your old um what do you call it
00:12:39
is it a team a platoon what are you
00:12:41
Squadron Squadron do you guys have like
00:12:43
a WhatsApp group or are you still in
00:12:44
touch you support each other yeah we got
00:12:46
a got a kind of a Communication channel
00:12:49
that we we talk to each other in and
00:12:50
that kind of thing um but you know I
00:12:53
guess it's the sad reality of life is
00:12:55
that um you know we probably only really
00:12:57
get together at funerals
00:13:00
um you know we try and we try and do it
00:13:02
outside of that but you know the boys
00:13:04
will come from all four corners of the
00:13:06
earth um when one of the boys have have
00:13:09
passed away and um so it's interesting
00:13:12
with that cuz a number of guys have
00:13:14
passed away since I've um uh left the
00:13:17
service and even even when I was serving
00:13:20
and um I know initially um in the early
00:13:23
days the boys were quite sad and was
00:13:25
very heavily emotional um but nowadays
00:13:27
it's kind of a re Union and um it's a
00:13:32
lot lighter and you know although we're
00:13:34
sad that the person's passed on that
00:13:35
person has brought us all together again
00:13:37
and then we get together catch up have a
00:13:39
few beers you know go out for dinner
00:13:40
maybe you know hit it hit it quite hard
00:13:42
that night um if we feel like it but um
00:13:45
yeah it's just uh yeah it's more of a um
00:13:49
enjoyable exciting experience to come
00:13:52
down and say goodbye to one of my mates
00:13:53
and and catch up with everyone you know
00:13:55
you're going to catch up with people you
00:13:56
haven't seen them for a long time which
00:13:57
is a completely different mindset to be
00:13:59
honest it's probably a better mindset to
00:14:01
have it at a funeral celebrating rather
00:14:03
than you know really getting sad about
00:14:05
it yeah celebrating someone's life how's
00:14:08
how's everyone everyone doing like yeah
00:14:10
as I've mentioned a couple of times
00:14:11
already like you've done a lot of work
00:14:12
and as a result of that you're thriving
00:14:14
but if you look at um by the way I'm I'm
00:14:16
probably going to say or ask a lot of
00:14:18
dumb stuff because I've got no it's a
00:14:19
world that I've got no no idea about
00:14:22
it's all I'm I suppose I'm basing basing
00:14:24
this sort of theory or thought on as um
00:14:25
you the limited stuff I know about the
00:14:27
uh you American troops and in the
00:14:29
Vietnam War and a lot of people ended up
00:14:31
with like opad issues and mental health
00:14:33
issues and um you detrimental effects
00:14:36
for you and your old Squadron is it most
00:14:39
people thriving or doing okay yeah yeah
00:14:42
mostly mostly not all um it's a
00:14:46
different Journey for everyone of course
00:14:47
because we're all we're all you know
00:14:49
been through different experiences in
00:14:51
life it's how we're brought up and and
00:14:52
how we see view the world from our our
00:14:54
sort of corner of the room um but yeah
00:14:58
most people are doing very very well um
00:15:02
yeah but you know some people are still
00:15:04
struggling to I guess pull themselves
00:15:08
away from um the culture essentially
00:15:11
that's that's so strong you know and the
00:15:13
Brotherhood is so tight you know brother
00:15:15
and Sisterhood to be honest um is so
00:15:18
tight you know because only you guys
00:15:20
have been through that experience
00:15:21
together that's quite significant that's
00:15:23
on the top of you know the culture that
00:15:26
the Army instills into you and then
00:15:28
that's on top of the culture that the
00:15:29
regimen instills within you which is
00:15:31
stronger again you know accountabil very
00:15:32
very high high expectations high
00:15:34
standards need to be met um and so all
00:15:37
of that's is hard to pull away from I
00:15:38
mean you're given Blood Sweat and Tears
00:15:40
and your whole self to the cause um and
00:15:43
now you're out in the world and um you
00:15:46
know trying to figure things out in a in
00:15:49
a different way and and trying to be c a
00:15:51
patient so yeah it hasn't always landed
00:15:53
with a lot of people but um in general I
00:15:55
think the boys are pretty good you know
00:15:57
if someone's falling on high times or
00:15:59
someone picks up on a conversation that
00:16:01
potentially happen with someone that may
00:16:03
be um worth getting a bit of support
00:16:06
around that person then then that's what
00:16:08
we'll do you know yeah that that
00:16:09
Readjustment must be just unbelievably
00:16:11
tough like unbelievably tough and does
00:16:13
does it bother you the sort of um lack
00:16:15
of patriotism in New Zealand like I'm
00:16:16
thinking whenever I fly through America
00:16:18
and you're waiting for a domestic flight
00:16:20
um there'll be a boarding call and if
00:16:21
you're a serviceman yeah they're usually
00:16:23
in uniform and they let to board the
00:16:24
plan first yeah yeah I think I think New
00:16:27
Zealand culture I'm not too sure if want
00:16:29
to go that far into it you know and I I
00:16:31
actually I take my hats off to the
00:16:32
Americans because patriotism is
00:16:34
something they do very well but I think
00:16:36
but I think in New Zealand culturally
00:16:37
you know we're we're quite we're a
00:16:39
little bit different you know we don't
00:16:40
we don't try and overplay things um you
00:16:42
know I'm not expecting you run to have a
00:16:43
New Zealand flag outside their house and
00:16:45
that type of thing but um I think uh as
00:16:47
I said in the past you know we
00:16:48
definitely in terms of patriotism the
00:16:50
All Blacks are you know it and we
00:16:52
definitely um idolize them you know and
00:16:56
new zealanders in particular I'm not
00:16:58
speaking for everyone um but for the
00:16:59
military yes but but not so much you
00:17:02
know and um that's uh I mean I'm I'm
00:17:05
pretty indifferent about that you know
00:17:06
everyone makes their own own mind up
00:17:08
about it but um yeah we're doing some
00:17:10
pretty significant stuff out there and I
00:17:12
guess this book reveals some of that
00:17:14
yeah it must be nice to have that um
00:17:16
even though it goes against sort of you
00:17:17
know everything that's ingrained with
00:17:18
you like about you know keeping your
00:17:20
identity private and not speaking about
00:17:22
the stuff um it must be nice to have the
00:17:24
opportunity to share some of the stuff
00:17:26
you've done yeah I think so um
00:17:29
and um yeah I guess talking about the
00:17:31
reason why I wrote the book you know a
00:17:33
lot of people were saying to me hey you
00:17:34
know um Jamie I think you've got a story
00:17:37
to tell and at the time you know I
00:17:38
wasn't really ready to be listening to
00:17:40
that um but I just kept hearing it
00:17:43
enough times that it was time to sort of
00:17:46
um putting pen to paper but um as you
00:17:48
probably already would have seen in some
00:17:49
of those podcasts it wasn't until you
00:17:51
know a good friend of mine Steve esin
00:17:53
who's you know on that photo there um
00:17:56
you know that that guy there was uh you
00:17:59
know pretty pretty significant human
00:18:00
being but uh he ended up dying in the
00:18:02
port Hill fires as a lead pilot um The
00:18:05
Monsoon bucket wrapped around the tail
00:18:07
rotor and he you know that was a one way
00:18:10
took it out and that was the only way
00:18:11
he's going to die to uh something that
00:18:13
was outside of his control because he's
00:18:15
he could control all other factors um
00:18:18
when I heard about it hit me like a
00:18:19
brick um because in fact I dismissed it
00:18:24
and thought no there's no way you know
00:18:26
and then and then it became a reality so
00:18:29
yeah had his funeral went down to his um
00:18:32
uh house and saw his kids on the
00:18:34
trampoline and um yeah it was yeah bit
00:18:37
of a revelation that um anyway his dad
00:18:41
called me up um I couldn't remember
00:18:42
month month later or a year later and
00:18:44
just said hey Jamie can you I'm just
00:18:46
trying to get some information on Steve
00:18:47
as a soldier inside the regiment can you
00:18:49
write something up I said yeah sure I
00:18:52
didn't get around to it for a couple of
00:18:54
years um and then I just started sort of
00:18:57
writing some stuff down and and yeah
00:18:59
kind of one thing lead to another and
00:19:00
here we
00:19:01
are yeah I can tell you you um almost
00:19:05
get like a bit of motional even now when
00:19:06
you talk about him yeah it's had a real
00:19:08
impact on you right yeah yeah it's um I
00:19:10
mean when I got told about it he uh oh
00:19:14
sorry I I was at home I had a friend of
00:19:17
mine call me um we had Pilots a pilot
00:19:20
that was in the regiment and he I think
00:19:21
he' called back from his helicopter like
00:19:23
straight away saying hey uh Something's
00:19:26
Happened with Steve we think he might
00:19:27
have gone in got no comes with them and
00:19:30
um and I was getting that back and and
00:19:32
you know my friend on the phone said hey
00:19:33
sorry man and I just said uh yeah I kind
00:19:36
of don't believe it yet and then it
00:19:37
became a reality and you know I was
00:19:39
outside crying and then I pulled myself
00:19:41
together when my uh wife came home with
00:19:43
my son and then yeah I sort of got back
00:19:46
into that um she asked me a couple of
00:19:48
questions about things and yeah so um
00:19:51
yeah it's hard to hold it back uh when
00:19:52
you see an individual like that get
00:19:54
taken away and then you get into your
00:19:56
dark spaces about you know why other
00:19:57
people should be walking there
00:19:59
rather than this uh pretty significant
00:20:02
New Zealander um last last person you
00:20:05
want to see um taken
00:20:08
out are you a reasonably emotional
00:20:10
person no really no and and this is why
00:20:13
it was it um was a surprise to me as
00:20:16
well you know in general um but uh yeah
00:20:20
I I don't mind it's not a sign of
00:20:24
weakness you know if we're going to talk
00:20:25
about feelings and that kind of thing if
00:20:27
you feel like crying crack on you know
00:20:28
if you got the strength to do it if you
00:20:30
don't then yeah it's up to you but uh I
00:20:32
mean that wasn't the only time you know
00:20:34
I break down fromont my family and and
00:20:36
there was another time when we had a
00:20:37
memorial for him at the regiment and all
00:20:39
the boys were there and uh yeah I
00:20:41
started talking about him and I couldn't
00:20:42
I just yeah couldn't hold it back and uh
00:20:44
had to stop for a bit and compose myself
00:20:46
but um you know it's uh he's not the
00:20:51
first he won't be the last and uh I'm
00:20:53
sure I'll see him again at some point
00:20:55
what's a certainty for all of us he but
00:20:57
yeah after going through the things that
00:20:58
you went through together you know it
00:20:59
seems cruel to go in such a way yeah
00:21:02
yeah yeah and that's it you know he's
00:21:04
done some pretty significant stuff and
00:21:06
if you see it you know if you could see
00:21:07
it if we had a film reel you could see
00:21:10
the stuff uh he did and and how he acts
00:21:12
and you'll you'll get what I'm talking
00:21:14
about hey well thanks for sharing those
00:21:16
insights I think like by talking talking
00:21:18
about someone like that and keeping
00:21:19
their memory alive that's I don't know
00:21:20
it's cool it's kind of powerful 100% hey
00:21:23
um so let's get back to the early years
00:21:24
so from what I can gather um West
00:21:26
Oakland um you played soldiers in the
00:21:29
bush as a kid yeah yeah played soldiers
00:21:32
we were lucky enough to be in a colder
00:21:33
sack and uh I guess we were lucky enough
00:21:35
to have a whole lot of kids who were
00:21:37
kind of born around the same time and um
00:21:39
so you know after school and uh in the
00:21:41
weekends we had a big mob of kids that
00:21:44
were out out in the back of the reserve
00:21:46
there we had like a cold of sack all
00:21:48
houses were there and then there was a
00:21:49
massive Reserve with an hisy that was
00:21:51
around the edge of it and then and you
00:21:52
know back in those days yeah go for it
00:21:54
you know don't worry about the mang you
00:21:55
know we're going into the mangr by
00:21:57
ourselves and swimming the muddy water
00:21:59
you know you never do that these days
00:22:00
man or do you I'm not too sure but yeah
00:22:03
you know we used to play war make Cuts
00:22:04
you know climb trees and um uh yeah just
00:22:08
you know toriz the neighborhood you know
00:22:10
stealing bloody fruit off people's trees
00:22:13
you know what I
00:22:15
mean but we're stealing fruit off off
00:22:17
trees of the people that my parents knew
00:22:20
you know and they'd be like ringing them
00:22:21
up and say hey Jamie just just as a deer
00:22:23
you know and then then suddenly you know
00:22:25
there only three or four tours down I
00:22:26
mean we're just yeah crazy I think we're
00:22:28
having laugh but um yeah it's uh yeah it
00:22:31
was cool man we we uh were pretty lucky
00:22:33
but um yeah I just I think I always like
00:22:36
doing that stuff you know going around
00:22:37
the bush and and and and playing War
00:22:40
yeah and you mentioned the skydiving
00:22:41
thing before um you're also into martial
00:22:43
arts boxing mountain bikes so it seems
00:22:46
like would it be fair to say you had
00:22:47
like like an appetite for calculated
00:22:49
risk yeah pretty much yeah I just like
00:22:51
getting after things that were that you
00:22:53
know gave you a bit of an adrenaline
00:22:55
rush and um yeah I mean Mountain biking
00:22:59
back then when when mountain biking
00:23:01
first became a thing all you had was a
00:23:03
solid frame bike I think all they really
00:23:05
had at the time were were front Rock
00:23:06
shocks like rock shock gen one you know
00:23:09
if you're really cool awesome and I used
00:23:11
to race on I used to race mountain
00:23:13
biking on a on a an Avan Sedona with no
00:23:15
shocks front and red a solid frame you
00:23:18
know and that and uh and and I did that
00:23:21
for a couple of years and then uh you
00:23:23
know I went up to I don't know if this
00:23:24
is in the book actually but I remember
00:23:25
going up to um I used to do I used to
00:23:27
live in bmal when I used to do some
00:23:30
rides out to mounted and you know just
00:23:31
go up and down up the hills to get my
00:23:33
legs used to it and um I got to the top
00:23:36
and um I stopped and these people were
00:23:38
looking at this guy and he he had tried
00:23:40
to ride down the the inside of the
00:23:42
crater of Mount Eden when you could go
00:23:43
in there oh my God that is so steep yeah
00:23:46
yeah and and he uh and he and he didn't
00:23:48
make it and this guy goes and this guy
00:23:50
goes I went wow that's awesome and he
00:23:51
goes you reckon you can do it and I was
00:23:54
like challenge accepted so I you I rode
00:23:58
around the other side and there was this
00:24:00
group of people on the other side
00:24:02
watching me and I was like looking at I
00:24:04
was like why did you have to do why did
00:24:06
you have to say you're going to do it
00:24:08
now you're committed and I ended up I
00:24:10
ended up going down there and and I made
00:24:11
it I made it down there I actually made
00:24:13
it down there without slamming into the
00:24:14
bottom because it is pretty see it's
00:24:16
almost like a vertical drop going down
00:24:17
there um but I managed to managed to
00:24:20
yeah through Pure Luck get to the bottom
00:24:22
without falling off and then I was like
00:24:24
they're like yeah you know clapping me I
00:24:25
was like yeah yeah no worries and I was
00:24:27
you know I would have been I don't know
00:24:30
13 you know I was only a young fell 13
00:24:32
14 so you know I must have had it in me
00:24:35
back then you know for that sort of
00:24:36
stuff and then yeah martial arts got on
00:24:38
the boxing skydiving all of it and um
00:24:41
yeah when when you say you were sort of
00:24:42
like um learning into a bad like a bad
00:24:45
crowd at that that point what do you
00:24:46
mean can't be just selling fruit or no I
00:24:50
won't go into too much detail but yeah
00:24:51
it was it was a we were just yeah we're
00:24:53
just Mischief you know and and what like
00:24:56
like fights rumbles or oh yeah yeah a
00:24:58
lot of stuff a lot of stuff yeah there's
00:25:00
there's a lot of things that went on but
00:25:02
why don't you want to get into it you
00:25:03
embarrassed or no not embarrassed it's
00:25:05
just um yeah it's uh I I'll just park
00:25:09
that area of my life over there um the
00:25:12
people I was with they're actually
00:25:13
they're actually good human beings yeah
00:25:15
but we just were a little bit mischief
00:25:18
and we're getting too big for our boots
00:25:19
and we're getting into things uh that we
00:25:23
shouldn't have and um and yeah and I
00:25:27
think when the Army came round when the
00:25:29
call to the Army came up it was at it
00:25:31
was perfectly positioned uh where I had
00:25:33
a fork in the road I was either going to
00:25:35
go one way or the other and um and it
00:25:37
was going to be you know boots and all
00:25:39
so uh yeah it was it was just a yeah one
00:25:42
of those points in time where you had to
00:25:43
make the right decision and and lucky
00:25:44
enough I didn't I had to make it
00:25:46
myself you were 17 and a half when you
00:25:49
applied for the Army yeah um and you
00:25:52
joined at 19 so it's quite funny cuz the
00:25:56
amount of like um discipline and self-d
00:25:58
discipline that's required to be in the
00:25:59
Army like as a complete jaxer position
00:26:01
to like a kid that's getting into
00:26:03
getting into trouble right yeah yeah and
00:26:05
that's the thing and I think you know
00:26:07
you just knew knew in your in your in
00:26:08
your soul that you needed it or yeah
00:26:11
well again you know when I um when I had
00:26:14
to look at my um file after 20 years um
00:26:18
and I got to the got to the the front
00:26:20
you know the start my my application I
00:26:22
wanted to know what I wrote on my
00:26:23
application and um at the back you know
00:26:25
it says what are your aspirations in the
00:26:26
military and it says to join the I mean
00:26:28
what that was at 17 and A2 so in me it
00:26:32
was already there you know that's what I
00:26:34
wanted to do and then my first selection
00:26:36
was a year after i' got into the army um
00:26:40
and then my second selection was a year
00:26:41
after that because obviously I didn't
00:26:43
pass the first one so I think I was
00:26:45
already always drawn into that and going
00:26:48
into the army wasn't a process of you
00:26:50
know um do your Fitness testing and um
00:26:54
you know you've been to like night
00:26:56
evenings where you get told what what to
00:26:58
do and you know a slow progression into
00:27:01
it um I I had an hour to decide to get
00:27:04
into the army you know the recruiter
00:27:06
rang me up and said hey there's 30 20 or
00:27:08
30 people have come off the um current
00:27:10
basic training so we're trying to fill
00:27:12
numbers straight away they've only been
00:27:13
there for a week you got to Y to think
00:27:15
about it um when you say go you'll be on
00:27:18
the uh van in two days and and you'll be
00:27:21
into it and so I really had nothing yeah
00:27:24
I had I just wa an hour to think about
00:27:26
it you brang me back I said yes and then
00:27:28
two days later I'm marching around Wu
00:27:30
getting yelled at in the snow and um and
00:27:33
wondering what the hell you were doing
00:27:34
oh yeah yeah it took a while but um but
00:27:37
inside I knew that was where I needed to
00:27:39
be and um it's something that I always
00:27:40
wanted to do yeah did you did you enjoy
00:27:42
it from the outset like did you take to
00:27:44
it like a duck to water
00:27:46
no I SM I was smoking I mean I was uh
00:27:49
you know uh you know partying in the
00:27:51
weekends and bits in pieces so it was it
00:27:53
was night and day um you know I had no
00:27:55
time I hadn't been doing any Fitness
00:27:57
training at that point you know gone off
00:27:58
the rails a bit and uh uh yeah just um
00:28:03
but yeah I just got into it and uh gave
00:28:05
it my all and yeah I just focused
00:28:08
straight away from my old life and
00:28:10
dialed straight in on what I needed to
00:28:12
do there but um you know if you look at
00:28:14
my reports from my basic training and my
00:28:16
infantry core training um timid weak you
00:28:20
know what I mean um that kind of thing
00:28:23
so yeah and uh that was brought out on
00:28:26
my farewell from the regiment always had
00:28:28
a bit of a laugh about it um but yeah I
00:28:30
was I was a completely different um
00:28:33
person back in those days and um um but
00:28:36
then the Army you know Drew Drew the
00:28:38
best out of me yeah do you think that's
00:28:40
that's fair like when you read when you
00:28:41
read that it's like were you timid and
00:28:43
week and hindsight
00:28:46
probably yeah I guess so I mean I don't
00:28:49
know they're looking at me you can't say
00:28:50
anything they're the ones looking at you
00:28:52
so um you know back the thing yeah they
00:28:56
just yeah Le like it was lack of
00:28:59
aggression and and that type of stuff
00:29:01
and um you know and uh if you show me
00:29:04
aggression I'll beat it out of you yeah
00:29:05
I know it was strange but um yeah you
00:29:08
know I mean I I mean it's so so long ago
00:29:10
now that it's um yeah anyway um it Maj
00:29:14
you though was the making of the man so
00:29:15
so so SAS what is it what does it stand
00:29:17
for Special Air Service Special Air
00:29:19
Service okay and what's the um like
00:29:22
what's the training or application um
00:29:24
you know process with that all all I can
00:29:26
sort of think about is like David GG
00:29:28
Navy SEALs Hell Week yeah no that's um
00:29:31
yeah that that like each each selection
00:29:33
course is designed to replicate a thing
00:29:36
you know and for us it's trying to
00:29:38
replicate the highest function of n
00:29:41
Soldier you know weight on your back
00:29:43
physically metaphorically checkpoint to
00:29:45
checkpoint any season weather or terrain
00:29:47
under time pressure sleep deprivation
00:29:50
food deprivation and there's no positive
00:29:52
or negative motivation you got to
00:29:53
intrinsically motivate yourself so
00:29:55
that's the highest function and it
00:29:56
replicates you know what we do at there
00:29:58
really really well and um yeah so you
00:30:01
get it's a 9-day selection process but
00:30:04
um you know that's really just the foot
00:30:06
in the door we're just seeing if you got
00:30:07
the grit and then after that you have to
00:30:10
um show us that you've got skill
00:30:12
assimilation and being able to operate
00:30:15
at a basic level as an SE Soldier so
00:30:17
essentially the um selection process you
00:30:19
know with the selection proper the you
00:30:22
know the the grip and then the um you
00:30:25
know near on year long um cyc training
00:30:29
so it's about a 12 it's about a 12 month
00:30:31
selection process because you're can be
00:30:32
taken off at any point in time and you
00:30:34
know we've deselected
00:30:36
people on badging day you know what I
00:30:39
mean or just before you're Jing
00:30:42
graduation happen before yeah they've
00:30:43
got very close and there cuz we are
00:30:46
training right up and testing right up
00:30:48
until the point that you get baded it's
00:30:49
not like we have a week off and then you
00:30:51
slowly prepare I mean man I was flying
00:30:54
and jumping out of helicopters over the
00:30:56
top of walk SE BD you know the morning
00:30:59
of our badging you know in the early
00:31:01
hours so um you know you jump straight
00:31:03
in so and that was a testing phase that
00:31:05
was our testing phase and so um yeah at
00:31:08
any point in time you can get out of
00:31:09
there you're under the
00:31:10
microscope um you you cannot
00:31:15
Escape
00:31:16
uh being looked at you know every part
00:31:19
of you is being looked at and reported
00:31:20
on and they can see you ws and all and
00:31:22
there's no way that you can hide your
00:31:25
character flaw because we're putting you
00:31:27
under under an immense amount of
00:31:28
physical mental emotional spiritual if
00:31:31
you like pressure and uh we will see it
00:31:34
you know what I mean and um you know you
00:31:36
get chances to uh you know to change
00:31:40
certain things or you know you'll get a
00:31:41
retest um but essentially after that you
00:31:44
know it's uh you're out the door um we
00:31:47
get psych tested so we know who's coming
00:31:49
in um and that and um so that's perfect
00:31:52
for what we're after but um you know it
00:31:55
doesn't stop after the it doesn't stop
00:31:57
after your badge either you know if you
00:31:58
start um uh lowering the standard um if
00:32:03
you're doing something that you
00:32:04
shouldn't um then yeah particularly
00:32:06
violating the values of the regiment the
00:32:08
tenants um we'll see you out the door
00:32:10
pretty quick you what are they what what
00:32:12
are the principles uh so the pursuit of
00:32:14
excellence in everything we do high
00:32:16
standards of discipline no sense of
00:32:19
class and humor and humility and that
00:32:21
humor humility I mean we'll talk about
00:32:23
it at the um at the intercon plays a big
00:32:25
part because um you you know you are
00:32:28
under the pump all the time and you want
00:32:30
to take the edge off whether you're you
00:32:31
know just being shot at in a in a in a
00:32:34
contact UM or you know you're out in the
00:32:36
snow in the middle of War training um
00:32:38
and you want to keep your the spirits up
00:32:40
we just have a bit of a laugh at how
00:32:42
tired and hungry and AMCI we're looking
00:32:44
at the moment you know just have a bit
00:32:45
of a laugh about it and that's I mean
00:32:47
that's been you know been around for
00:32:49
years you know that those tenants since
00:32:51
1942 so how how many people start and
00:32:53
how many people graduate is it like an
00:32:55
average um it's hard yeah it's hard to
00:32:58
know I think you'd get probably off a
00:33:01
selection course maybe 2 3% you do a
00:33:04
couple of selection courses yeah I'm not
00:33:06
too sure what they do now um and that'll
00:33:08
get trimmed down so I mean we started
00:33:10
with um 28 on our cycle of training and
00:33:15
I think we had 11 get through and that's
00:33:18
off the back of two cycles of training
00:33:21
which is anywhere between 100 to 200
00:33:23
people so it's a very small amount you
00:33:25
know what I mean do do many people self
00:33:27
eliminate or
00:33:28
yep yep so either you know you get
00:33:32
pulled off um you self eliminate or you
00:33:35
have an injury that stops you from
00:33:36
carrying on um but yeah it's uh again
00:33:42
you you could almost say that that
00:33:43
carries on through your
00:33:45
career because uh it just carries on I
00:33:47
mean people will um hit their threshold
00:33:52
the pressure increases as you travel
00:33:55
through your career um as you take up
00:33:58
leader leadership positions cuz now
00:34:00
you're in the position of leading um you
00:34:02
got to plan and prepare there's a lot
00:34:04
more there's a whole lot of more hours
00:34:06
that you got to put into the work um and
00:34:09
um yeah your work's very
00:34:11
strategic what what's the um the hardest
00:34:14
part part of the training like is there
00:34:15
is there like an apex in particular
00:34:17
where people self eliminate um yeah so
00:34:20
the uh for the cycle of uh sorry the
00:34:23
selection course uh the Jerry cans is
00:34:26
probably the the hardest thing you'll do
00:34:27
do the barrier test so that's uh you
00:34:29
know six Jerry cans weighing you know
00:34:31
Jerry can weighs about 20 kgs 20 L 20
00:34:34
kgs so you have six Jerry cans between
00:34:37
five people so two two Jerry cans you'll
00:34:39
carry at the front um every sof and
00:34:41
you're also carrying a pack weing a
00:34:43
rifle which is about 30 35 kg depending
00:34:46
on how you P your pack um and you got to
00:34:48
do that for 20 hours um 10 hours out 10
00:34:51
hours back and um yeah that that all
00:34:55
that trims down numbers pretty quick and
00:34:56
again you can't
00:34:58
not show your true self in those moments
00:35:01
and um you know you do see see people
00:35:04
starting to reveal their true sense of
00:35:07
identity um you know talking back to the
00:35:10
staff and um getting angry and these are
00:35:14
the things that we don't want to see we
00:35:15
want to see composure uh we want to see
00:35:17
people who are in control of their
00:35:18
emotions and who will just keep going
00:35:20
because again you know operations can be
00:35:23
very open-ended um in terms of time um
00:35:27
they could also be open-ended in terms
00:35:29
of how much you know uh sleep you don't
00:35:32
get you know so you got to operate for a
00:35:34
long period of time under a huge amount
00:35:35
of pressure um so yeah that that would
00:35:38
be the hardest uh for the cyc training
00:35:40
every course is difficult in its own way
00:35:44
um but yeah it's it's um yeah the
00:35:48
process of uh selection in particular
00:35:51
was designed you know well before my
00:35:54
time probably yeah well before I was
00:35:55
born um but it definitely perfectly
00:35:58
aligns with operations how did you get
00:36:00
through you just wanted it bad
00:36:02
enough yeah I just wanted to get badged
00:36:06
um obviously you know my application
00:36:07
saying I wanted to be the SS which I
00:36:09
didn't see um and then obviously doing
00:36:11
the selection course pretty much
00:36:12
straight away I just always had a um
00:36:14
drive to get in there um I was focusing
00:36:17
on getting badged everything else was as
00:36:20
in marching out getting my belt and ber
00:36:23
and um becoming part of the Squadron
00:36:25
that was my mind that was where my um
00:36:27
mind was that's what I was um
00:36:29
visualizing um everything else was just
00:36:32
a a step in that direction um some
00:36:36
people will bite it off in small chunks
00:36:38
like you know every single checkpoint
00:36:40
and I suppose to do that on selection
00:36:41
for me it wasn't really about the
00:36:43
checkpoint it was getting through the
00:36:44
day I had to get through the day and
00:36:45
then I had to get through the next day
00:36:46
and then I had to get through the next
00:36:47
day and then all of a sudden it will
00:36:49
merge I just um have always had a
00:36:52
mindset that the line will always come
00:36:53
and go regardless you know whether you
00:36:55
live or die um you know whether you go
00:36:58
out you know you see doing marathons
00:37:00
there's time doesn't stop you know it's
00:37:02
ticking away and and and it will end at
00:37:05
some point you just got to keep on going
00:37:06
you know get into your Zone if you need
00:37:08
to um get into Flow State if you need to
00:37:11
um go where you need to go and then just
00:37:13
uh settle into the work and um yeah the
00:37:16
end will come and then you know you
00:37:18
should feel good about your contribution
00:37:20
or or accomplishment yeah I notice you
00:37:22
mentioned Flow State just then and um
00:37:24
I've heard you talk about Flow State
00:37:25
when you talk about the Intercontinental
00:37:27
um day and I suppose all this SAS
00:37:29
training which seems like what's the
00:37:31
point at the time um it all added up to
00:37:35
this one moment really in a way didn't
00:37:36
it yeah 100% yeah strange so when so
00:37:39
when you're in the um when you get
00:37:41
badged like then whates do things get
00:37:43
easier for a bit no they still you got a
00:37:45
couple of years of Probation and what
00:37:47
that means is is that you're still you
00:37:50
know you're not you know you're badged
00:37:53
um but we still now you're being
00:37:56
integrated into a squadron trained SAS
00:37:59
soldiers you know at the different
00:38:00
levels and uh I was fortunate enough in
00:38:02
my time to have a uh um be part of a
00:38:06
real good Squadron full of some very
00:38:09
strong men um and leaders and um yeah
00:38:13
they they took us in and and sorted us
00:38:15
out um pretty quickly but you still got
00:38:17
to demonstrate the skill set you got to
00:38:20
uh bring yourself up to a higher level
00:38:22
and the level just gets higher and
00:38:23
higher and higher um The Never Ending
00:38:25
pursuit of excellence and everything we
00:38:27
do is is a thing um and that's what we
00:38:29
expect in making mistakes um although
00:38:33
you know you can make a mistake here but
00:38:36
don't make the same mistake twice you
00:38:38
know because if you do then you start
00:38:39
losing trust in others and then that's a
00:38:42
sort of a quick exit for you so yeah
00:38:45
there's the the yeah the need to perform
00:38:49
is high every single day you can't
00:38:51
really have many off days yeah and I've
00:38:52
heard you I've heard you talk about this
00:38:54
and this is something we'll get to when
00:38:55
we um talk about the work you've had to
00:38:57
do to sort of unpick um some of the
00:38:59
military stuff but um yeah that need for
00:39:01
excellence with yourself and for others
00:39:03
um you've had to lower your standards
00:39:06
since uh leaving the military which
00:39:08
is it sounds easy but it's an impossibly
00:39:11
difficult thing to do if it's um the way
00:39:12
you you know your brain's been wir yeah
00:39:15
yeah it's now it's knowing where you
00:39:17
need to go um like I'm still pursuing
00:39:20
Excellence but the um the time it takes
00:39:23
to get to where I need to go um with
00:39:26
certain teams is extended you know if i'
00:39:30
if I'm if I have an objective um and I
00:39:34
you know give give the clear intent and
00:39:36
about how we're going to get to that
00:39:38
objective to train s soldiers we can
00:39:40
pretty much do it right now you know
00:39:41
what I mean like they'll just get about
00:39:43
the business and not much will be said
00:39:44
but you know in this particular space
00:39:47
out here um the the journey is a lot
00:39:50
longer um but as long as we're traveling
00:39:51
in that direction then it fulfills my
00:39:53
need but um again you know you have to
00:39:56
uh this is where you need to figure out
00:39:58
what works what you need to take from
00:40:01
the regiment and what needs to be left
00:40:02
behind and one of them is um you know
00:40:04
the high expectation of yourself and
00:40:05
others um I'll always have high
00:40:07
expectations of myself but um my
00:40:09
expectations have lowered somewhat and
00:40:11
I'm just um being a lot more
00:40:14
communicative a lot more
00:40:16
collaborative um and it's necessary you
00:40:18
know what I mean because this is not
00:40:20
this is not uh building something um or
00:40:23
you know a survival on the battlefield
00:40:25
type training that we're doing you know
00:40:27
whereas you got to be this is why we're
00:40:29
so high on the standards and we're so
00:40:31
pantic um because at the end of the day
00:40:33
you put a foot wrong go left should gone
00:40:34
right that that could mean your life
00:40:36
gone or the life of your team so making
00:40:38
the right decisions as bang on whereas
00:40:40
out here you can you can make mistakes
00:40:42
reorientate and then carry on well yeah
00:40:44
yeah it's literally a matter of life and
00:40:46
death isn't it out here not so much yeah
00:40:49
um so you do um five deployments to
00:40:52
Afghanistan uh four I had four combat um
00:40:56
operations and then I've done a number
00:40:57
of other deployments you know which you
00:41:00
know in and out stuff but the main ones
00:41:02
were was were four four combat
00:41:03
deployments so the first time you you
00:41:06
get a first of what do these deployments
00:41:09
mean like how how long does each one
00:41:11
last for like what's the daily routine
00:41:13
over the year yep so initially we did um
00:41:16
I think the first trip I did
00:41:20
was four four or 6 months I think the
00:41:23
same the second trip was four or 6
00:41:25
months this was right back in the early
00:41:27
days when we were doing basically going
00:41:29
out onto the ground fact finding um
00:41:32
possibly getting in in contact with the
00:41:34
Taliban so figuring out where the enemy
00:41:36
positions were just finding out where
00:41:38
the pointy bits were and and some of the
00:41:40
gaps um you know making connections with
00:41:43
the local population um telling people
00:41:45
why we're there um which is what we're
00:41:47
good at um looking for terrain um areas
00:41:51
where we can build fobs potentially
00:41:52
Fields some pieces which is a common um
00:41:56
and we'd be out for anywhere between 2
00:41:58
to 4 weeks um doing these operations and
00:42:02
the fact that uh at that particular
00:42:04
point in time the kiwis had the longest
00:42:06
I think Patrol out on the ground 28 days
00:42:09
or 30 days um which was not normal
00:42:11
generally uh the Americans and and other
00:42:14
forces would be only out for maybe one
00:42:15
or two weeks so that was pretty
00:42:18
significant um and yeah that was that
00:42:21
those are interesting times and I mean
00:42:23
Afghanistan is amazing place it's um you
00:42:26
know I got the the uh opportunity to uh
00:42:30
be an outrider so we were ahead of the
00:42:32
Convoy and we' just stay ahead give
00:42:34
early warning um be able to um find the
00:42:37
roots for the vehicles so there wasn't
00:42:38
much stopping and starting so we're
00:42:40
keeping the Convoy going um and so we
00:42:42
got to see a lot more of the country
00:42:44
than the guys in the vehicles so we' be
00:42:45
a to go right up on top of the hills see
00:42:48
right out you know watch them watch them
00:42:50
Drive pass and I thinking man you know
00:42:53
if this place ever um gets itself sorted
00:42:56
out for for adventure racing of any type
00:42:59
you know mechanical or human the best
00:43:02
you know what I mean like getting a quad
00:43:04
oh yeah climbing um you know even you
00:43:07
know backpacking just epic you'd lose
00:43:09
yourself in there this is just amazing
00:43:11
the people in general are amazing uh
00:43:13
depending on what what tribe you run
00:43:15
into but um in general they they're
00:43:17
amazing people very accommodating
00:43:19
they'll have you on your village you
00:43:20
know they'll sit you down you'll have
00:43:22
meals share chai talk um and it's just a
00:43:25
different way of life you know you could
00:43:27
I could definitely see a lot of people
00:43:28
being consumed into these um into these
00:43:31
Villages and and integrating with the
00:43:32
cultures cuz it's very simple um and um
00:43:37
yeah very accommodating and respectful
00:43:40
um but yeah it's just a shame but uh
00:43:42
yeah hopefully one day that that happens
00:43:46
yeah sounds like I had a guy on the
00:43:47
podcast a couple of months ago called um
00:43:49
abas nazari he came to New Zealand as a
00:43:52
young Refugee um yeah do you remember
00:43:54
the tamper incident it was like a little
00:43:56
a little and his family like um escaped
00:43:58
on this boat it's the first time they'd
00:44:00
seen the ocean L and been on it the boat
00:44:02
sort of fell apart and they rescued by a
00:44:03
boat called the tamper the Australian
00:44:05
government didn't want yeah that's right
00:44:07
was a few years ago yeah yeah he's he's
00:44:09
a man now he's got a couple of
00:44:10
businesses but as a seven-year old boy
00:44:11
he was on this boat lucky to be alive
00:44:13
yeah um but yeah pre Taliban he painted
00:44:16
a beautiful idelic picture of
00:44:18
Afghanistan where they lived you know
00:44:19
fruit trees sort of sounded like Hawks
00:44:22
yeah amazing olive trees um you know
00:44:25
they've got the uh what is it bandam
00:44:27
Lakes up north just pristine blue you
00:44:31
know like kind of like the color of
00:44:32
these chairs just blue beautiful um but
00:44:36
yeah like I said yeah if I'm hoping I'm
00:44:38
praying that something like that opens
00:44:39
up we just people love it tourism wise I
00:44:41
think they do very very well so so these
00:44:44
these deployments when you're when
00:44:45
you're leaving New Zealand going to
00:44:46
Afghanistan for up to half a year um are
00:44:49
you are you leaving with like a a sense
00:44:51
of excitement or Adventure or is it like
00:44:53
sort of trepidation and fear both yeah I
00:44:56
mean um are you married at the time no
00:44:59
no I wasn't and um I think you know now
00:45:02
that I now that
00:45:04
I look at uh myself currently with a
00:45:09
family I'm not too sure how I'd be
00:45:12
feeling leaving you know cuz some of the
00:45:14
boys had um were married had you know
00:45:17
three kids two three kids and that would
00:45:19
have been pretty significant to leave
00:45:21
them behind for me um there definitely
00:45:24
was that sense of adventure and and
00:45:26
wanting to get out there and
00:45:27
particularly on that first tour I wanted
00:45:29
to know how I measured up out there on
00:45:31
operations and I wanted to make a good
00:45:32
impression and and just see how how I
00:45:34
went and um I was just wide open to to
00:45:37
really try and do well over there and
00:45:39
see how the training measured up but
00:45:41
also you know I found myself every time
00:45:44
we flew out I'd be looking at the window
00:45:47
um and seeing you know New Zealand go by
00:45:49
and then seeing the coast land Coastline
00:45:52
disappear and thinking um I wonder how
00:45:54
I'm going to come how are we coming back
00:45:56
um
00:45:57
uh oh yeah that's what I thought you
00:45:59
know what I mean like am I going to see
00:46:01
New Zealand again or am I is this it you
00:46:03
know is it a one way ticket and that's
00:46:05
the unknown and then I'd just switch
00:46:07
into cutting that out and just hey man
00:46:09
focus on what you need to do um and then
00:46:12
and then you know new Ze would come back
00:46:14
into view again as it always does um so
00:46:16
I was very lucky you know others
00:46:18
weren't um but that was what was
00:46:20
happening and you know you get you'd fly
00:46:22
into um we were in Kandahar at the time
00:46:25
and I remember you know leaving the
00:46:26
leaving the security of the of the camp
00:46:29
and the same thing would happen am I
00:46:30
going to am I coming back into camp or
00:46:32
am I not you know in which way um so
00:46:36
yeah but again like I said numerous
00:46:38
times before we're there to represent
00:46:40
New Zealand this is our job um our job
00:46:43
comes with um the uh possibility that
00:46:47
you can be koled or significantly
00:46:50
injured um or injured um and that's just
00:46:53
the way it is and the chance of that
00:46:55
happening is pretty high given given
00:46:56
what your what Your what your job is
00:46:58
here to do and that's you know that's
00:47:00
different to everyone you know it's um
00:47:03
it's highend it's complex um and has
00:47:06
there strategic effect
00:47:07
invol what was um what's Camp life like
00:47:10
over there is it I suppose I'm s maybe
00:47:13
thinking of like a I don't know like a
00:47:14
Jake Gyllenhaal movie or a Bradley
00:47:16
Cooper movie but are you playing is
00:47:18
there a rugby ball being tossed around
00:47:20
are you playing you got to you got a you
00:47:22
get uh a small little area of the camp
00:47:26
um and and um yeah we'd be in you know
00:47:30
you're in like these big tents um and
00:47:33
you have like the air con is pumped in
00:47:35
there if you didn't didn't have that
00:47:37
you'd die it' be like the worst sauna
00:47:39
you've ever had in your life you never
00:47:40
sleep even sleeping outside be quite
00:47:42
difficult um but yeah they have these
00:47:44
big tents and you probably got about you
00:47:45
know 10 to 15 of the boys are in there
00:47:49
um uh what else do we have um we had
00:47:53
like a little area where we had like a
00:47:55
um you know a blow up pool and would
00:47:58
have water in there so you could have a
00:47:59
bit of a swim you know just a just a
00:48:01
dunk in there the water's quite warm
00:48:03
though but it was better than being
00:48:03
outside um you'd have games and cards
00:48:06
and bits and pieces um we had our own
00:48:09
Chef which was a game changer so he
00:48:11
would um we to link up with the
00:48:14
logistics flights coming out of Dubai
00:48:16
and also from um North and in the USS
00:48:21
and um he would try and get fresh
00:48:23
supplies in for us which was different
00:48:25
to what the Americans were getting
00:48:27
um in the early days so we're pretty
00:48:28
lucky with that um to sort of break up
00:48:31
the monotony of having ration packs um
00:48:35
yeah we um we actually had this uh we're
00:48:37
the only little area in Camp that had a
00:48:40
lawn and I mean it doesn't seem like
00:48:42
much but having a green lawn is actually
00:48:44
quite nice to sort of lie on rather than
00:48:47
the Dusty Dusty Old Rocky ground um so
00:48:50
we had this lawn and we made sure it was
00:48:52
always watered and and that and then you
00:48:55
had our little pool and we had a little
00:48:56
B and um we had beers and that kind of
00:48:58
thing um only when we came back cuz when
00:49:01
we come back from from long Mobility
00:49:03
patrols you know we' earned it that's
00:49:04
for sure um and that and uh yeah it's
00:49:08
pretty pretty cool you know we' have it
00:49:11
was pretty it was pretty busy really you
00:49:14
go out for 2 3 4 weeks come back and
00:49:17
then we have a week before we turned
00:49:18
around and went out again you know we're
00:49:20
there for operation so we're getting
00:49:21
after it so we come back uh you know
00:49:24
we'd you know put our vehicles in to get
00:49:26
checked mechanically we clean out the
00:49:29
vehicles um do the deef all that kind of
00:49:32
stuff get about a day day and a half off
00:49:34
and then we'd be reorganizing and
00:49:35
getting brief to go out um for another
00:49:38
job and then it would take two days to
00:49:39
build up for that we'd probably go out
00:49:41
and do some test firing and check our
00:49:43
weapons and um you know change our
00:49:46
tactics potentially and then uh out we
00:49:48
go again and it just was rinse and
00:49:50
repeat has been pretty quick [ __ ] you
00:49:52
your cortisol levels must been through
00:49:53
the roof he you're just constantly in
00:49:55
this um state of high arousal yep the
00:49:57
whole time yeah and and again you know
00:50:00
probably subconsciously you're not
00:50:02
really switching off so I know in the
00:50:05
later tours you know when I was with CIU
00:50:08
in Camp Oly Camp Olympus in the middle
00:50:10
of town I would sleep I'd sleep 8 to 10
00:50:14
hours if I went to bed early enough you
00:50:16
know cuz we didn't have TV you didn't
00:50:17
have to worry about that being in your
00:50:19
face you just read a book and gone but
00:50:20
then I wake up and I'd just be still be
00:50:22
very very tired and so there was a I
00:50:25
guess there's an un under Ling
00:50:27
registering of threat um not only from
00:50:30
the outside because where we were and in
00:50:33
Camp Olympus were quite close to the
00:50:35
gate and you know attack point for
00:50:38
anyone hit the gate with a vbid vehicle
00:50:42
born um IED you a vehicle full of
00:50:44
explosives detonate and then the assault
00:50:46
force would come straight through so I
00:50:48
think your brain's you know thinking man
00:50:51
something's going to happen it's going
00:50:52
to happen there I mean we put sandbags
00:50:53
up and that kind of stuff to give us a
00:50:54
bit of cover if that happen but yeah I
00:50:56
just everyone's different but um I slept
00:50:59
well but I just didn't it I didn't feel
00:51:02
rested yeah yeah yeah it's not normal
00:51:06
eh the things that you've seen and done
00:51:08
it's it's crazy it's just so far from
00:51:10
nor and what's the um what's the what's
00:51:13
the culture like in he say like what is
00:51:14
there your duty of care is there
00:51:15
councelors on hand like are you guys
00:51:18
it's probably even different now to when
00:51:20
you were there but um you know is um
00:51:23
vulnerability sort of encouraged you
00:51:25
know you guys having deep convers ation
00:51:26
with each other yeah we have deep
00:51:28
conversations but um we're not we're not
00:51:30
trying to um coordinate it you know the
00:51:34
boys the boys will talk to each other
00:51:37
about things um but it just depends on
00:51:39
how close you are to certain people d a
00:51:42
care from a leadership perspective is um
00:51:45
top priority um looking after the boys
00:51:47
and making sure they're as safe as we
00:51:49
possibly can be but you know we're not
00:51:50
there to cover you and coton will man
00:51:52
we're we're in the war zone you know at
00:51:53
the end of the day we know why we're
00:51:54
there and that kind of thing but uh you
00:51:56
know I mean Willie aata's uh you know um
00:52:00
act that earned him the VC is you know
00:52:03
that's that represents what the
00:52:05
brotherhood's all about you know what I
00:52:07
mean whether if you if if if the um you
00:52:10
know the [ __ ] hits the fan so um yeah
00:52:13
it's uh yeah Jud care in terms of
00:52:15
counselors uh we don't have a site in
00:52:17
the early days we didn't have a site
00:52:19
there we only would bring in a Psy if we
00:52:22
really needed to um that would be on the
00:52:24
way out you'd go through the uh debrief
00:52:27
process
00:52:29
um and I don't know I I'm not too sure
00:52:31
what it's like now cuz a lot there was
00:52:33
you know a lot of good points that came
00:52:34
out of that light speed at which we were
00:52:36
coming back into New Zealand um was
00:52:39
something that we brought up um that
00:52:41
potentially needed to change um as in
00:52:43
shorter deployments or no as in you know
00:52:47
being away for four months um in a high
00:52:52
activity High threat environment and
00:52:55
then you know being on stand and then
00:52:57
within a week you're back in New Zealand
00:52:58
outside the gates getting picked up you
00:53:00
know that's quite quick um regardless of
00:53:02
how many days you're sort of sitting in
00:53:04
an intering country oh in terms of like
00:53:06
a reintegration yeah like reintegration
00:53:08
um and I know some some countries did
00:53:12
have um like a a week Where The Boys
00:53:16
actually came in did their site de reefs
00:53:18
decompressed you know went out and have
00:53:20
some beers maybe they went out into the
00:53:21
local area and did some tourist stuff
00:53:23
like that and just slowly get their
00:53:25
heads away from the game and then then
00:53:27
flying them back um back home um I'm not
00:53:30
too sure what the outcome is of that as
00:53:31
we thought that might have been a good u
00:53:33
a good way of doing things but again
00:53:35
we're just trying to find our own ways
00:53:36
new zealanders and that you
00:53:38
know Afghanistan was one of those
00:53:41
periods of time where we're trying to
00:53:43
find out what works and what didn't work
00:53:45
you know and so um
00:53:48
yeah when I was there the support the
00:53:51
support's all there you got to ask for
00:53:53
it uh and everyone has a different
00:53:55
experience and this is just mine it's
00:53:56
just my my opinion but you know if I
00:54:00
want to see a psych I can ask for a
00:54:01
psych and they will come and talk to me
00:54:03
and we can do something about it and
00:54:06
whether or not it sits at their level or
00:54:07
they need to bring me out to a you know
00:54:09
to a clinical psychiatrist or whatever
00:54:12
needs to happen then um yeah it's uh
00:54:16
it's there and it's available but
00:54:19
again it's that un it's that kind of um
00:54:22
thinking that if I put my hand up and
00:54:25
say that um something's wrong with me
00:54:28
then you know I may lose my job which is
00:54:31
wrong and or I may appear weak which is
00:54:34
wrong as well you know so um again it's
00:54:37
a it's it's one of those personal
00:54:39
perception issues you know whereas the
00:54:41
the units here to to wrap around support
00:54:44
yeah to to keep you in we're not going
00:54:46
to spend millions and millions of
00:54:47
dollars training you and giving you all
00:54:50
the specialist expertise to see you go
00:54:52
out the door um you know in that way um
00:54:55
so I think probably you know early on uh
00:54:59
people that left may or may not have uh
00:55:04
you know W being true to themselves and
00:55:06
we're probably more talking to each
00:55:08
other because the people that were in
00:55:09
the Squadron with us that were on those
00:55:11
operations we could look them in the eye
00:55:13
and say hey well you there and and let's
00:55:15
talk about that particular incident but
00:55:17
we don't have the specialist skills to
00:55:18
extrapolate the deeper information and
00:55:20
say hey man maybe you need some needs
00:55:22
some help so again it's there it's
00:55:24
whether or not you want to meet people
00:55:26
halfway um and you want to make that
00:55:28
that change but we can go into that yeah
00:55:31
but so you don't want to you were scared
00:55:32
of almost like showing weakness in a way
00:55:34
I think so because because at the end of
00:55:35
the day we're so highly competitive as
00:55:37
well you know it's a competitive
00:55:38
environment you're very highly
00:55:39
competitive you just think that's what
00:55:43
people will think you know like and and
00:55:46
the reality reality is couldn't be more
00:55:48
further from the truth the boys are
00:55:49
there support you if I had discussions
00:55:51
with someone and said hey man I'm not
00:55:53
not in a good way the boys will be
00:55:55
wrapping themselves around you know I'm
00:55:56
sure hoping but um the same would go
00:55:59
back the other way and it's happened in
00:56:00
the past so at the time young Fells you
00:56:03
know it's uh it's just the way it is
00:56:05
well you you you and I like careerwise
00:56:07
we couldn't come from more different
00:56:08
worlds I'm from broadcast media um but
00:56:11
I've got a a mate who um had severe
00:56:13
bipolar um ended up costing him his life
00:56:16
um but no one knew about it apart from
00:56:18
his like um immediate his wife and his
00:56:19
immediate family and that was the same
00:56:21
reason he didn't want to tell anyone it
00:56:23
worked because he was scared it might
00:56:24
cost him leadership positions or
00:56:25
opportunities yeah it's crazy it's just
00:56:27
um it's just the way we think we're
00:56:29
trying to put on a you know put on that
00:56:31
front um that everything's okay
00:56:33
regardless and um you know there's so
00:56:36
many worlds out there right you know
00:56:38
what I mean you just have to look at one
00:56:40
of those buildings in ockland an
00:56:41
apartment in every
00:56:43
single unit something's going on you
00:56:46
know what I mean and um you know I guess
00:56:48
as a person I think you should be saying
00:56:52
hey man hey you know I'm kind of open to
00:56:55
anyone if they want to talk about things
00:56:56
and people people do it or they don't
00:56:58
but um yeah I think just men in general
00:57:01
AR they great at at doing that kind of
00:57:03
thing feel like it's getting it's
00:57:04
getting better I don't know I think so
00:57:06
now I think so now that that we've yeah
00:57:09
it's sort of a it's a bridge that's
00:57:10
being built now and I think more people
00:57:13
are are coming across it's just it's
00:57:15
just how you go about it I think when I
00:57:17
look at vulnerability um I'm not looking
00:57:19
at myself sitting up on a chair um
00:57:21
crying and that kind of thing that's
00:57:22
just that's not how I do it but um you
00:57:25
know as I've been in the book I'm just
00:57:26
being honest about my particular Journey
00:57:29
from my perspective and what's happened
00:57:31
to me and um you know hoping that you
00:57:34
know primarily which is a purpose of the
00:57:37
book that
00:57:38
veterans um and and serving soldiers and
00:57:40
officers can actually align themselves
00:57:42
to my journey and and um either get
00:57:45
ahead of some of the stuff that um
00:57:47
happened to me um or understand where
00:57:50
they are at this point in time and
00:57:52
potentially look at some of the tools
00:57:54
that I used in and ways um um to get me
00:57:56
out out the other side in one piece you
00:57:58
know mentally it's so cool it's really
00:58:00
powerful stuff that you're sharing we're
00:58:02
just about to get to the 29th of June
00:58:04
the um intercon but one one um here just
00:58:07
one quick one first did you did you
00:58:09
trade a bunch of beers for some Hummers
00:58:11
some American Hummers did I did I hear
00:58:13
that like no I don't know where'd you
00:58:16
find that one I didn't I didn't I didn't
00:58:19
personally this is what we did we did
00:58:21
yeah we did yeah we did so we we a hell
00:58:24
of a swap yeah yeah well I mean it's a a
00:58:26
good swap yeah yeah so um yeah I mean we
00:58:29
we were um we were fortunate enough to
00:58:32
be able to you know have a few beers
00:58:34
after our trips and that type of thing
00:58:35
and that sort of grees the wheels quite
00:58:38
a bit with uh our our friends our
00:58:40
Coalition partners and um yeah so um I'm
00:58:45
sure there's a lot more to it than that
00:58:46
but you know you don't receive anything
00:58:48
for nothing and and um yeah with we we
00:58:51
just you know gave some beers and some
00:58:52
whiskey and and got some dumes and then
00:58:55
we had to you know what dumes they're
00:58:57
called dve desert Humvees oh right right
00:58:59
yeah it's a different different variant
00:59:00
and um yeah but then we had to you know
00:59:03
and then past that point we had to make
00:59:04
them into fighting vehicles and so for
00:59:06
us to do that we didn't uh have all the
00:59:09
sexy mounts like they do these days we
00:59:11
had the mounts for the main weapons on
00:59:12
the vehicle but not the the secondary
00:59:14
weapons and um so we had to go up the
00:59:17
dump and basically use that number
00:59:19
number eight wire approach uh and and um
00:59:23
you know uh put it all together and and
00:59:25
they were effective enough you know it
00:59:27
um got us out a few tangly situations
00:59:29
but um nowadays you know the the
00:59:31
regiment is a completely different
00:59:33
Beast thanks for sharing that that's a
00:59:35
that's a crazy story yeah yeah where are
00:59:38
those Vehicles now just like with local
00:59:39
why not why not yeah why not yeah I'm
00:59:41
not going to definitely you know you
00:59:43
don't want to get gifted eight eight hum
00:59:44
dumes and not give them anything for it
00:59:47
you know for sure yeah yeah yeah um okay
00:59:50
so um yeah 29th of June uh 2011 this is
00:59:53
the Intercontinental incident um yeah 19
00:59:57
Taliban there 20 civilians killed nine
00:59:59
nine Taliban nine Taliban yep yep y yeah
01:00:02
um 20 civilians killed roughly I think
01:00:05
the figures you know we'll never really
01:00:07
know so how how long yeah how long did
01:00:10
this play out over like is is it out a
01:00:11
couple of hours a day 10 hours hours yep
01:00:14
okay so yes so talk us through that day
01:00:16
so when did you you got you were asleep
01:00:17
and you got woken up yes I was asleep um
01:00:20
I got woken up at about 10:00 at night
01:00:22
uh by one of the um uh signals operators
01:00:26
um from the Tock the tech Corporation
01:00:28
Center and he said hey something Big's
01:00:30
going on in the city and um he said um
01:00:33
yeah can he the senior National officer
01:00:35
wants to have a chat to him and uh to
01:00:37
figure out a plan so I got up as a
01:00:39
ground Commander at the time on that
01:00:41
particular tour and I walked into the
01:00:43
Tactical operations center and he was
01:00:45
sitting at the back of the room and then
01:00:46
the Tactical Operation Center they got a
01:00:47
number of screens one of them was on Fox
01:00:49
News and really we're
01:00:52
just the best thing about that is
01:00:54
there's reporters inside theity and they
01:00:56
get word of stuff real quick you know
01:00:58
they'll hear something they'll get eyes
01:01:00
on pretty quick and that's what we're
01:01:02
worried about is the Optics and just a
01:01:03
general understanding of what's going on
01:01:04
and where um so that was up I can see
01:01:07
what was going on there we had a um ISR
01:01:10
platform above the um the
01:01:12
hotel and um and basically it was giving
01:01:15
us thermal imagery of of what was
01:01:17
happening on top of the roof and at the
01:01:18
time I could see um a couple of people
01:01:21
um moving about the roof and they're
01:01:22
shooting off the roof towards the inner
01:01:24
Cordon the Afghan National Police had
01:01:27
put a ring around the hotel and I come
01:01:29
out in and out and they basically in a
01:01:31
gun battle um with with the uh the
01:01:34
tourist on the roof and there was an
01:01:35
unknown number it sort of fluctuated in
01:01:37
numbers and um yeah and believe it or
01:01:40
not I said they went oh another spectac
01:01:42
spectacular attack at that point that
01:01:44
was my second tour done a couple of
01:01:46
those in the first
01:01:47
tour and um and he said um and I said oh
01:01:52
yeah what's happening he said oh yeah
01:01:53
InterContinental hotel has been attacked
01:01:55
um um there's a number of t on the group
01:01:58
roof as you can see but just the number
01:01:59
just keep changing so we're not too sure
01:02:01
exactly how many there are so we've got
01:02:03
some on the roof there could be some
01:02:04
more inside the building so we're not
01:02:06
too sure about the numbers and I said oh
01:02:08
yeah who's as the CIU responded and the
01:02:11
CIU was the crosses Response Unit whose
01:02:13
um we were partnering at the time and
01:02:16
and they they were based as I said in
01:02:18
Camp Olympus which is in the middle of
01:02:19
the town and the reason why that they
01:02:21
were there was because if a spectacular
01:02:23
attack happened um they were right in
01:02:26
the middle of the city they could
01:02:27
respond very quickly and um and get
01:02:30
after it we had uh two of our um badge
01:02:36
guys down there mentoring the CIU at the
01:02:38
time so they were there to train them um
01:02:41
so the CIU had deployed two squadrons
01:02:43
the mentors were on their way were in
01:02:44
coms with them and um they were heading
01:02:47
down to the hotel what's the CIU uh the
01:02:49
crisis response unit okay yeah so they
01:02:52
were basically their role was the um
01:02:56
sort of the security Safety and Security
01:02:58
of um kabo and the outline provinces so
01:03:00
they do highrisk of RS essentially
01:03:02
respond to spectacular attacks and um
01:03:05
yeah a number of sort of you know
01:03:08
secondary and tertiary
01:03:10
roles so um and i' I'd been a mental
01:03:13
with CIU squadrons uh a previous toour I
01:03:16
was there in cample and Pacific for
01:03:18
seven months and um I had a good
01:03:20
understanding of where they were with
01:03:21
things so they heading down uh I was
01:03:24
getting an update on what was I was
01:03:26
getting briefed on what was happening um
01:03:29
I got briefed of the S said yep we're
01:03:31
going to go down I actually said to him
01:03:34
hey um we got two squadrons down there
01:03:37
they're probably going to resolve it by
01:03:38
the time we turn up do you really want
01:03:40
us to go down there um and he said yep
01:03:43
just go down there um enable them with
01:03:46
your specialist skills and um we'll see
01:03:48
how this thing plays out so I said okay
01:03:50
cool brief up the boys uh let them know
01:03:52
we're ready gave us a green light to go
01:03:53
down we got in our vehicles here down to
01:03:56
the hotel it's like a racetrack at night
01:03:58
in Cabo there's a curfew at 10: streets
01:04:01
are clear there's just checkpoints in
01:04:02
place you just got to stop for the
01:04:03
checkpoints show your badge and then
01:04:05
carry on through uh got down to the
01:04:08
hotel and
01:04:09
um uh the outer Cordon so there's an
01:04:12
inner and an outer Cordon um was about
01:04:15
400 m away from the hotel so we decided
01:04:17
to stop there and not drive all the way
01:04:19
up to the hotel because we're in full
01:04:21
view of it instead we decided to
01:04:23
Dismount the vehicles and then U make
01:04:25
our way through the the Shadows nice and
01:04:26
nice and slow up to the
01:04:29
hotel we stopped at the incident control
01:04:31
point and the incident control point is
01:04:33
basically a command center and in the
01:04:34
command center with the all the
01:04:36
commanders of the units that were there
01:04:38
so the Afghan National Army Afghan
01:04:40
National Police the CIU and the minister
01:04:42
of interior was there as well went in
01:04:44
there talked to the c or ciou uh had a
01:04:47
check to the minister of interior as
01:04:48
well he gave us brought us such to speed
01:04:50
on what was happening and then um we
01:04:52
made our way up the the driveway um to
01:04:55
where the the the hotel was just as we
01:04:58
came up beside the inner Cordon um they
01:05:03
started getting into a gun battle again
01:05:05
right in front of us now we could draw
01:05:08
ourselves into it but I really wanted to
01:05:10
know where to get into the building as I
01:05:12
need to I need to get point we need to
01:05:13
get in there quickly our CIU squadrons
01:05:16
were already inside the building in the
01:05:17
lobby with our mentors and um so myself
01:05:21
and Steve esin got up onto the um up
01:05:23
onto this mound looked across the car
01:05:25
Park and I said where are you they said
01:05:27
I'll just flash light so they flashed
01:05:29
light across the car park said okay cool
01:05:31
Roger got you um came around behind the
01:05:34
um inner Cordon let them know we're
01:05:36
there got to be very deliberate about
01:05:38
that and then one by one we ran inside
01:05:40
the lobby we got inside the
01:05:43
lobby um while backing up a bit I think
01:05:47
the one of the things that um consumed
01:05:49
me the most about what was happening was
01:05:52
that the the guys that were firing off
01:05:54
the roof uh was shooting at the inner
01:05:56
Cordon but they always the aim is always
01:06:00
off and and it was quite high and so
01:06:02
they're firing rockets and um automatic
01:06:05
uh fire off the roof but it was it was
01:06:07
sort of going it was some of it was
01:06:09
coming down but a lot of it was going
01:06:10
across the top and it was heading out
01:06:12
into the local neighborhood and so
01:06:14
families are out there you know what I
01:06:15
mean and they have to stay put you know
01:06:17
they' be taking a risk to get out of
01:06:18
their their houses or they they're
01:06:19
trying to get out of there so we had to
01:06:20
think about that and thinking all right
01:06:22
we're going to have to resolve this
01:06:23
thing pretty quickly there you know
01:06:24
people outside the hotel are going to
01:06:26
get killed as well people that don't
01:06:28
want to be a part of this how how tall
01:06:29
is the hotel by the way how five stories
01:06:31
five stories okay plus a roof and is it
01:06:33
um having never been to um Afghanistan
01:06:36
like when I here InterContinental I
01:06:37
think like four to five star hotel
01:06:39
really nice is that what like an yeah
01:06:42
yeah three atast three three to four Max
01:06:46
was a one St by the time you guys
01:06:48
finished well yeah yeah there's quite a
01:06:49
bit of damage but um yeah so we got into
01:06:52
the lobby uh was Pitch Black um the you
01:06:55
were Milling about um there was a uh
01:06:58
Dead Terrorist on the floor he was
01:07:00
carrying an AK-47 had a grenade launcher
01:07:03
underneath it um he had a suicide vest
01:07:06
um he had a bag and the bag had um
01:07:09
grenades for the grenade launcher and he
01:07:11
also had normal handheld grenades he had
01:07:13
energy drinks bit of food and they all
01:07:15
they had new shoes and they all had new
01:07:17
shoes that was their gift I guess um for
01:07:20
um doing what they're doing um so when I
01:07:23
looked at him you know we had to assume
01:07:24
that everyone was stressed in that way
01:07:26
so we had to deal with you know not only
01:07:28
someone shooting at us but you know if
01:07:30
we got close they could cack themselves
01:07:32
off and um potentially take us out where
01:07:34
to be very careful about what we're
01:07:36
doing um at this point in time of the
01:07:39
cii's
01:07:41
training um history they had not done
01:07:46
anything big like this like they had not
01:07:48
done a large building of this size at
01:07:51
night five stories 150 rooms where were
01:07:55
more focusing on single multi-story
01:07:59
compounds um and so this came up and you
01:08:02
know training progression takes time so
01:08:06
um I could see that they went really
01:08:08
prepared uh for this so I put my guys in
01:08:11
front and we led the way with our
01:08:13
assault group um with the CIU behind us
01:08:15
as backup and it's it's it's dark at
01:08:17
this point is is the lights on in the
01:08:19
hotel no completely dark we've all got
01:08:21
mvgs on our night vision goggles and um
01:08:24
yeah and we've got our IR lasers and
01:08:26
bits and pieces so you know we can see
01:08:28
everywhere um no one else can really see
01:08:31
us but the other thing was that the ciou
01:08:34
um had hadn't done any type of sort of
01:08:37
quiet clearance training which is where
01:08:39
you you're kind of sneaking through the
01:08:41
building and being very very silent um
01:08:43
so there's a lot of a lot of noise
01:08:44
behind us that we had to have had to
01:08:46
think about so anywhere we were going to
01:08:49
go we're they were going to know we're
01:08:51
coming um so went down the corridor um
01:08:55
um someone called a body to the left um
01:08:58
I went and had a look um in the internet
01:09:00
room and um uh there's a guy that was
01:09:03
slumped up against the wall I just did a
01:09:05
quick check to to see if he was alive um
01:09:07
he was gone um he' been emailing on the
01:09:10
um the computer was just a guest or
01:09:12
something just a guest yeah sitting
01:09:14
there um leaning up against the wall
01:09:16
it's a shame um and then got out and
01:09:18
then went to the left sort of you know
01:09:21
we didn't have schematics or anything of
01:09:22
the the hotel um I'd been there in 200
01:09:25
too but I mean I'd forgotten about what
01:09:27
how it was all configured went around
01:09:29
went just naturally found ourselves in
01:09:31
the kitchen and then on the back of the
01:09:33
kitchen with the northern steer well
01:09:34
which is kind of where we wanted to go
01:09:36
anyway and then um so we went up the
01:09:39
steer well decided that we're going to
01:09:40
kind of clear each floor all the way up
01:09:42
to the roof but it became apparent as we
01:09:44
started doing that that the amount of
01:09:47
fire that was coming off the roof the
01:09:48
amount activity that was on the roof it
01:09:50
was probably best that we go all the way
01:09:51
to the roof deal with the threat clear
01:09:53
that and then retrospectively come down
01:09:55
clear all the clear all the rooms uh
01:09:57
clear all the floors and then start
01:09:58
clearing everyone else out of the rooms
01:10:01
so um we owned a small group of capable
01:10:03
people at the time um and the CIU were
01:10:06
just plugging the gaps so we started u
01:10:09
making our way up the stairwell Steve
01:10:11
esin was leading again pitch black was a
01:10:13
U-shaped steer well a lot of angles was
01:10:16
open um so we started making our way up
01:10:18
there we're making good
01:10:19
progress and then all of a sudden uh
01:10:22
Steve came round um the stairwell and he
01:10:27
came face to face with one of the
01:10:28
terrorists so they had heard us coming
01:10:30
up the stairwell and they'd sent on
01:10:33
person down um and what we didn't
01:10:35
realize is the person they sent one
01:10:37
person down and then at the top of the
01:10:39
stairwell they had someone covering them
01:10:41
and he was heavily armed so this guy
01:10:43
came all the way down they met each
01:10:44
other both raised their weapons I don't
01:10:46
know meter you away maybe a meter and a
01:10:48
half probably closer um both started
01:10:51
firing Steve had the mark the other guy
01:10:53
I don't know where the rounds went would
01:10:55
have skimm Steve I'm sure um but he
01:10:58
stood his ground dropped him and then he
01:10:59
just the guy just got up straight away
01:11:01
and then started running back up top of
01:11:03
the stairs probably the adrenaline and
01:11:05
then um got to the top of the steer well
01:11:07
popped out on the roof which is what we
01:11:08
saw later detonated himself and took one
01:11:11
of his other mates out so he did us a
01:11:13
favor nice so these these Sude sorry to
01:11:16
interrupt um so if if they designated
01:11:19
and you how close do you need to be to
01:11:21
be um hit with shrep um a couple of me
01:11:26
depends on how they configured some of
01:11:27
them are in like are just slabs of
01:11:30
plastic explosive inside a like a
01:11:32
military style pouched vest some have
01:11:35
bull bearings so when it explodes it
01:11:38
actually fires those bll bearings out at
01:11:40
you so it just depends and it depends on
01:11:42
where you're standing as well if you're
01:11:43
behind cover you'll be fine you know
01:11:44
what I mean even if you know this was
01:11:47
made of concrete and someone detonated
01:11:49
themselves by that door and we were
01:11:50
sitting here fine we just probably get
01:11:52
you know a little bit over pressure in
01:11:53
our our e drums which would Rock us a
01:11:55
bit but essentially um it just depends
01:11:58
on the amount of explosive um what they
01:12:01
got combined with it um but it' be a
01:12:03
good radius if we're all just in the
01:12:05
clear then you know maybe 10 10 maybe 10
01:12:10
20 M kill radius maybe depending on the
01:12:13
explosive quantity just depends the
01:12:15
number of different factors Al so um
01:12:17
this the story like we're not even
01:12:18
halfway through but you you can sort of
01:12:20
tell it without sort of any sort of
01:12:22
emotion has it always been that way or
01:12:24
is it this just through like muscle
01:12:25
memory no I mean um I'm starting to say
01:12:28
say this now after I've heard myself on
01:12:30
podcast I kind of think to myself yeah
01:12:33
I'm sure you you know if I was looking
01:12:34
at myself saying oh it was very matter
01:12:36
of fact to be like yeah yeah sure you're
01:12:38
trying to be tough I'm just I'm being
01:12:40
straight up like straight up the fact
01:12:43
where it's the facts it's we're process
01:12:45
driven we've done this thousands of
01:12:47
times not not in an operational setting
01:12:49
but in training we train in the dark all
01:12:52
the time we've trained in buildings like
01:12:54
this all the time
01:12:56
know thousands and thousands of hours
01:12:57
day and night shooting moving scenarios
01:13:00
the whole all of it all of it combined
01:13:02
you know leadership problems it's all
01:13:04
it's all been um designed into us so
01:13:07
it's kind of just this has happened do
01:13:09
that this has happened do that you know
01:13:11
it's just bang bang bang bang bang and
01:13:13
it's just constantly uh uh moving and
01:13:16
maneuvering to put pressure on them um
01:13:20
and and get on them quickly get them
01:13:22
focus on you and get their focus away
01:13:24
from doing stuff to the the hotel guests
01:13:27
yeah cuz just before you said H there
01:13:29
was a guy did sending an email that was
01:13:30
a shame um yeah at the time are you just
01:13:34
so busy and so focused on your job that
01:13:35
you just can't have any sort of yeah my
01:13:37
mind yeah I mean that's that but that
01:13:38
there's a the problems there the
01:13:40
problems there because they're either
01:13:42
going to kill the Afghan naitional
01:13:43
police who aren't designed for this
01:13:44
stuff and they're a pretty well-armed
01:13:46
Force I could see it RPGs you know
01:13:48
automatic fire then I'd seen they got
01:13:50
the grenades they got the 40 m uh
01:13:52
grenade launcher as well um and then
01:13:54
you've got the you know the families
01:13:56
outside so it had to be it was a very
01:13:58
easy decision to make let's just get
01:14:00
them focused on us we're designed for
01:14:01
this they're not um and let's get it
01:14:04
done so um so yeah I I don't know uh
01:14:08
yeah so going back to the stairwell um
01:14:10
you know obviously that guy detonated
01:14:12
and then um what we what we found
01:14:15
ourselves and past that point was um we
01:14:17
ended up getting a very heavy weight of
01:14:19
automatic fire come down on us and then
01:14:22
that was followed up by grenades and I'm
01:14:24
not tooo sure how long that went on
01:14:26
for but um yeah it went on for a little
01:14:30
bit the first grenade that dropped
01:14:32
dropped by Steve's
01:14:34
feet and then he ran he ran out to the
01:14:37
fourth floor the door was open luckily
01:14:40
but the grenade pretty much followed him
01:14:42
all the way out he turned the corner and
01:14:44
it followed him out bounced into the um
01:14:46
don't ask me how this is like a floak it
01:14:49
was like attached on by a string it's
01:14:50
like a piece of string got tied onto his
01:14:52
back it was tied onto the grenade
01:14:53
followed him all the way out into the
01:14:54
four floor exploded threw him on his um
01:14:57
you know dropped them uh he would have
01:14:59
been semic cussed for a period of time
01:15:01
cuz I was yelling up to him for a while
01:15:02
he just wouldn't come out he's on an
01:15:03
unclear floor we taking heavy weight of
01:15:05
fire so couldn't just easily cross into
01:15:07
the fourth floor you know it was just it
01:15:10
would be Madness so we had to deal with
01:15:12
a threat above us and then try and get
01:15:14
them out so um yeah again we don't know
01:15:17
how long the gun battle lasted for in
01:15:20
the stairwell
01:15:21
there
01:15:23
um but eventually
01:15:25
we were able to neutralize a threat
01:15:27
above our heads and then um uh call out
01:15:30
to Steve and he came too came around the
01:15:32
corter and we said hey you're right and
01:15:33
he said yeah I think I'm okay I think it
01:15:35
taken a few bit of stra my back arms and
01:15:37
legs um and then we called him across
01:15:41
gave him covering fire called him across
01:15:43
and then went down to the third floor
01:15:44
and reorganized themselves ourselves by
01:15:47
that time we had um a number of CIU in
01:15:50
the stairwell so we had ourselves
01:15:52
covered from pretty much the bottom
01:15:54
floor up 2 43 and then they were
01:15:57
starting to clear each of those floors
01:15:59
for us um so we have significant
01:16:01
presence in the in the steel there I
01:16:03
gripped up the um the CIU squadron
01:16:05
commander at the time he was in charge
01:16:07
of the two squadrons that were there and
01:16:08
I said Hey listen you guys just start
01:16:10
clearing all the all the people out of
01:16:12
the out of their rooms get them into the
01:16:14
kitchen hold them there um don't let
01:16:16
them go anywhere make sure we search
01:16:17
them before they come in because it
01:16:18
could be a few sleepers um and we're
01:16:20
just going to carry up to the top of the
01:16:21
roof and and deal with that you see Y no
01:16:23
worries and it was at this point that I
01:16:26
um when we're talking about flow state
01:16:28
is that I suddenly recognized that I was
01:16:30
just calm you know like he sitting here
01:16:33
Cal talking away um it was very strange
01:16:37
and and that and um at the time I didn't
01:16:39
really know anything about flow I don't
01:16:41
think we're talking about it in those
01:16:42
days but I was definitely in flow now
01:16:44
that I recognize it and you know my mind
01:16:46
mind was wide open um made my decision
01:16:50
making very clear I had a my brain had
01:16:53
had created this mental image of the
01:16:56
entire hotel in 3D could see all the
01:16:59
floors below me I could see the floors
01:17:00
above me I could visualize I could hear
01:17:02
the helicopter flying around and around
01:17:04
the shooting the terorists are shooting
01:17:06
off at the helicopter trying to get it
01:17:07
you know F shoot it out of the sky the
01:17:10
boys and we had a couple of our guys in
01:17:12
a in a Blackhawk helicopter that um got
01:17:14
picked up in Camp and came overhead so
01:17:16
while we were clearing through the
01:17:18
building they were um taking out some of
01:17:20
the terce on the roof so I can see all
01:17:22
of that and it just made everything very
01:17:25
easy for me Cal cool Cal collected you
01:17:28
know and again I'm not trying to be a
01:17:29
tough guy here it's just matter if this
01:17:30
is what happened um so I got a small
01:17:33
group of um badge guys together um
01:17:37
because they're trained and and we
01:17:39
wanted to go to the other steer well and
01:17:41
make our way up there um silently so we
01:17:44
made our way up that that southern
01:17:45
stairwell silently left the CIU to it
01:17:47
they're making a heap of noise down
01:17:49
there anyway so I would have been
01:17:50
drawing their attention over in that
01:17:52
direction which is what was happening
01:17:54
went up to the top of that steer well uh
01:17:56
put a charge on the door because it was
01:17:58
locked there was a steel bar across the
01:17:59
door and a lock um and then just came
01:18:03
back down and then I um called back to
01:18:05
our headquarters and said hey we're in
01:18:07
position to assault the roof um can you
01:18:09
get the helicopter off um give it some
01:18:11
space because you know if we blow the
01:18:13
when we blow particularly metal it just
01:18:16
goes everywhere you know what I mean you
01:18:18
don't want that wrapping into the into
01:18:19
the helicopter so they got into a wider
01:18:21
orbit and then um he said yep you guys
01:18:24
are cleared cleared to make entry and um
01:18:28
yeah I just said to the boys sayy
01:18:30
uh everyone on that roof is uh is armed
01:18:34
uh so whatever's in front of us just
01:18:36
drop them and um and I'll see you on the
01:18:38
other side and um yeah see on the other
01:18:42
side meaning just whatever happens
01:18:43
happens both yeah both meanings you know
01:18:45
we either going to get to the side the
01:18:47
other side together or we're not so um
01:18:50
and I'm sure that made sense afterwards
01:18:52
but uh yeah so we didn't know you know
01:18:55
we still had unknown numbers really um
01:19:00
and so yeah it was just a kind of a
01:19:02
question mark so yeah it was game one so
01:19:06
um yeah gave the standby standby go blew
01:19:11
the door off at SAS threw a couple of
01:19:13
grenades out to create space on the roof
01:19:15
and then we moved all moved out into
01:19:17
extended line and then started um facing
01:19:20
in the direction of of where these guys
01:19:22
were in front of us we could we had
01:19:24
these um um uh satellite dishes that
01:19:27
were standing up on kind of meter high
01:19:29
concrete platforms and they sort of
01:19:31
dotted all in front of us about I don't
01:19:33
know 5 or 10 m in front of us and then
01:19:36
behind that was the elevator the shelter
01:19:38
for the elevator mechanism that you know
01:19:40
obviously um could pull the elevators up
01:19:43
and down and then we're orientated to
01:19:45
the
01:19:46
north um yeah I got out into extended
01:19:49
line and then we just started um
01:19:51
basically putting down fire into um
01:19:54
areas of cover and what I mean by that
01:19:56
is cover is like a like something hard
01:20:00
that they can protect themselves from
01:20:02
our fire and so we just we're basically
01:20:04
doing that to keep them down and keep
01:20:05
them um suppressed you know what I mean
01:20:07
until we could get nice and close to
01:20:09
them take them out um there was a guy
01:20:11
underneath the satellite DH she was
01:20:12
engaged on the left hand side I wasn't
01:20:14
really focused on that that was
01:20:15
information I got um um um later on um
01:20:20
and then they started moving around the
01:20:21
left side of the um elevator mechanism
01:20:23
room room I was on the right
01:20:25
um I could see a leg sticking out from
01:20:26
one behind one of the satellite dishes
01:20:28
so I started engaging that came all the
01:20:29
way around and then when I came round on
01:20:32
on the leg I realized it was just a leg
01:20:34
that was had been separated from from
01:20:36
the hip so um the guy that detonated
01:20:41
himself after our gun battle in the um
01:20:43
stairwell like I said he took out a m of
01:20:45
his so that was a whole lot of body
01:20:47
parts um when the helicopter that was
01:20:50
circling the the roof took out a couple
01:20:53
of took out a um tourist on the roof or
01:20:55
a couple of tourists on the roof one of
01:20:57
them started firing and you saw on the
01:21:00
um information that we had after um they
01:21:02
started firing at this guy he dropped
01:21:05
and then he detonated so either did it
01:21:07
knowing that he was going out so he
01:21:08
detonated as well so that basically the
01:21:11
roof was covered in body parts and Blood
01:21:14
and Guts and bits and meat and heads and
01:21:16
it was just hanging everywhere so yeah
01:21:18
we were confronted with that um the guys
01:21:21
that were on the left-and side started
01:21:22
getting into a gun battle with the um
01:21:24
what we didn't know at the time but was
01:21:26
the remaining terrorist all the rest of
01:21:28
them had been taken out um and they
01:21:31
started getting after it it's like oh
01:21:33
yeah and so we decided to come around to
01:21:35
try and put pressure on him he must have
01:21:37
looked he he must have looked around the
01:21:39
corner to see if he could do the same
01:21:41
thing that we were doing get around
01:21:42
behind the other assault group and he
01:21:44
must have seen us coming and thought Oh
01:21:46
the G is up and then just he just
01:21:48
stepped back and just boom detonated
01:21:50
himself in front of us um and yeah it
01:21:53
was quite a significant blast
01:21:55
uh came around cleared make sure
01:21:57
everything was clear got to the top of
01:21:59
the uh Northern steell to make sure the
01:22:01
guy that we um neutralized was um done
01:22:04
um he was uh and then um we came back
01:22:10
cleared the elevator mechanism room and
01:22:12
then um so what does neutralized mean
01:22:15
neutralized means um made combat
01:22:17
ineffective basically so you can do that
01:22:19
in a number of ways whether you um
01:22:22
killing them is is destroying them uh
01:22:24
neutralizing you could neutralize
01:22:25
someone just by shooting them around the
01:22:27
legs if you wanted to make some they
01:22:28
can't really do much else be worried
01:22:30
about being shot around the legs so
01:22:31
there they're just tactical terms um so
01:22:35
you know that's kind of our first portol
01:22:37
Mak them combat and effective and you
01:22:39
know when we're in the stairwell we were
01:22:41
just making sure there was no more
01:22:43
rounds coming down on our heads you know
01:22:45
and grenades and so once we had done
01:22:48
that and we saw no further movement up
01:22:49
there it was time to move on and you
01:22:51
know we still had the CIU that was um
01:22:54
maintain in dominance in the steer well
01:22:57
so yeah cleared to the Northern end of
01:22:58
the steer uh and then I got called up on
01:23:01
Comm that there was a fire in the fifth
01:23:02
floor below us so there's a function
01:23:04
room quite a big function room um that
01:23:06
pretty much um took up about a third of
01:23:08
the fifth floor and uh they said hey
01:23:11
there's a fire on the fifth floor it's
01:23:14
right below you um uh you might want to
01:23:16
get out of there and I said okay no
01:23:18
worries um so I got the
01:23:20
boys um and said hey um just check that
01:23:23
these these guys
01:23:25
uh are done and then we'll go down the
01:23:27
stairwell Southern stairwell and then
01:23:29
we'll just start pushing all the guests
01:23:31
down clear all the rooms push the guest
01:23:33
down into the kitchen like I told the
01:23:34
CIU to do punch the fire alarms get spr
01:23:37
sprinklers going and then um we'll start
01:23:40
getting into that phase of the
01:23:42
operation um went down um punched the
01:23:46
fire alarm um to activate the sprinklers
01:23:48
didn't work punched another one didn't
01:23:50
work obviously the health and safety
01:23:52
manager needs to be fired um from there
01:23:54
that
01:23:55
job just wouldn't fly in New Zealand but
01:23:57
I was a surprise like oh here we go um
01:24:00
so um yeah and then then the next
01:24:03
problem we had to solve was reassuring
01:24:06
the guests that we were Security Forces
01:24:08
to get them out and down into the
01:24:11
kitchen oh so there were guests like H
01:24:13
up in their rooms yeah okay so um yeah
01:24:17
so we're knocking on the doors and they'
01:24:18
be and would say hey open up open up um
01:24:22
Security Forces you can come out to the
01:24:23
coral but aot them didn't believe it so
01:24:25
it took us quite a while to get them get
01:24:27
them down um into the kitchen so we um
01:24:30
suppose a kiwi accent or English
01:24:32
language yeah it would yeah because
01:24:34
initially the CIU were doing it and they
01:24:35
having real problems with it so um yeah
01:24:37
we just started telling them to come out
01:24:39
and then they just started coming out uh
01:24:41
we did searches searched them brought
01:24:43
them into the kitchen held them there uh
01:24:45
we told them that um you know we're um
01:24:49
ISF soft International Security
01:24:51
assistance Force Special Operations
01:24:52
forces to in the um the kitchen by that
01:24:56
point um we started seeing more Afghan
01:24:59
security coming into the hotel um so we
01:25:03
used a component of of the police here
01:25:05
to um provide protection for those guys
01:25:08
in the um kitchen so I didn't have to
01:25:10
put any Manpower from our end in there
01:25:13
um and I just said hey just just hold in
01:25:15
here until I say that it's clear to go
01:25:17
because you don't want to be going out
01:25:18
the doors cuz we don't know if um the
01:25:21
fif FL fif floor is clear that was the
01:25:23
only floor had been cleared because of
01:25:25
the there's a lot of smoke um we tried
01:25:28
to make entry in there s a couple of
01:25:29
guys up there to make entry it was just
01:25:31
too hard we're not firefighters we don't
01:25:33
have you know breathing apparatus and
01:25:35
that type of thing to get in there and
01:25:37
the Fly was still fire still raging so
01:25:40
we did that um the Afghan um
01:25:44
firefighters arrived and they had uh
01:25:46
AK-47s slung um which is not what you
01:25:49
see in New Zealand so it was
01:25:51
entertaining but I can see why and um
01:25:54
yeah they made this their way up the the
01:25:55
stairwell and started putting the fire
01:25:57
out out up there um anyone coming out
01:26:00
into the the fifth floor wouldn't have
01:26:01
made it far so we knew that you know we
01:26:04
still had the advantage of time um to
01:26:07
get in there and that and um so if
01:26:10
there's anyone up there they were
01:26:11
probably going to be Hol Up in a room so
01:26:13
I decided to make best use of time and
01:26:16
um we took the took the team up and um
01:26:19
did a battle damage assessment of the
01:26:20
roof and basically that was just
01:26:22
checking um uh all the bodies off um
01:26:26
trying to do a count of how many uh had
01:26:30
been killed and that was quite difficult
01:26:31
to do with the amount of body parts that
01:26:33
were up there so we had to make up
01:26:35
figure out what the numbers were um we
01:26:37
also had to so you're countings or heads
01:26:40
or things pretty much yeah and and then
01:26:41
we had to make safe the um suicide vests
01:26:44
I had um explosive ordinance disposal
01:26:46
guys that were part of my team um as
01:26:48
part of our enabling uh force behind the
01:26:51
assault group so they went in and did
01:26:52
their work we count Ed the uh the Dead
01:26:57
uh we cleared weapons asn't taking the
01:26:59
magazine off and making sure they're
01:27:01
safe um because it was now a crime scene
01:27:04
and um you know the Afghan police have
01:27:07
to go through due process and at that
01:27:09
time again we had more and more Security
01:27:11
Forces coming in because we had taken
01:27:13
the roof and and suddenly they had
01:27:15
confidence so um people started turning
01:27:17
up with v on some kind of f forensic
01:27:20
investigation people it's quite strange
01:27:23
so we're up there doing better damage
01:27:24
assessment I called back to a
01:27:26
headquarters just telling them where we
01:27:27
are are in the battle the fifth floor is
01:27:29
still raging um and um yeah we sort of
01:27:33
sat up there had a bit of a chat and
01:27:35
then um by this time it was about 4:30
01:27:39
in the
01:27:40
morning now I've only just um kind of
01:27:44
come to the realization of time and how
01:27:46
long it took us to get from the bottom
01:27:49
of the
01:27:51
um car park up to the roof and we hit
01:27:56
the roof at around about 4:00 a.m. so we
01:28:00
arrived at probably 11 so it took us 5
01:28:04
hours 5 hours and this is what I mean I
01:28:06
have no concept of 5 hours was about an
01:28:10
hour that's what it felt like 5 hours
01:28:13
was so it's interesting how the brain
01:28:15
works well you're just hypervigilant
01:28:17
that whole time aren't you that's that
01:28:18
yeah and this what I mean it's just
01:28:20
um yeah weird 5 hours so yeah 5 hours
01:28:24
had passed um we're standing up there
01:28:27
and then and um yeah and then all of a
01:28:30
sudden automatic fire just the sun had
01:28:33
come up because it comes up quite early
01:28:34
in the morning about 4:00 at 4:30 in the
01:28:36
morning um and all of a sudden some
01:28:39
automatic fire starts flying out of the
01:28:41
fifth floor um and we're sort of just
01:28:43
standing around and next minute we
01:28:45
started taking rounds um so we all hit
01:28:47
the deck and automatic fire and it just
01:28:50
started coming from all directions
01:28:51
thinking man what's going on here and um
01:28:56
I remember thinking uh you know they're
01:28:59
smart they've uh decided this is plan
01:29:02
you know this is the second stage of
01:29:03
their uh their plan so they're probably
01:29:05
shooting at us from The High Ground so
01:29:07
we looked around but I couldn't see any
01:29:08
firing points and it was still coming in
01:29:10
and then we realized we're being shot at
01:29:11
by the in Cordon so the inter Cordon um
01:29:15
had probably thought well it's kind of
01:29:17
over maybe they' turned away maybe
01:29:19
they're having a chai and and smoking
01:29:20
and then the automatic of fire occurred
01:29:23
they turned around some heads up on the
01:29:24
roof and then they just started having a
01:29:27
crack and so we're very lucky um that
01:29:29
nothing happened there so we hit the
01:29:30
deck um crawled to the edge you know
01:29:33
waved out um and you know they wav back
01:29:36
and the firing
01:29:37
stopped so yeah um that was interesting
01:29:41
and then I said hey uh where's the CIU
01:29:44
and um uh The Interpreter said uh they
01:29:47
got on their vehicles and went back to
01:29:48
Camp Olympus because um they're going to
01:29:50
reorganize just in case there's another
01:29:51
attack in the city and I said who who
01:29:54
told them to leave you know and they
01:29:56
said oh they make that their decision uh
01:29:58
by themselves and I thought uh here we
01:30:00
go so now we had the problem of uh only
01:30:04
having a very small team we had one what
01:30:07
we well one minimum uh more terror to
01:30:10
take care of um and now we didn't have
01:30:12
communications with the inter cordin
01:30:14
which is going to pose problems but I
01:30:16
didn't think it was going to be a
01:30:17
problem now that we' identified
01:30:18
ourselves on the
01:30:20
roof um but yeah it uh it did so said
01:30:24
okay cool let's put fresh magazines on
01:30:26
our weapons let's go down there and um
01:30:29
and sort this guy out so we went down
01:30:31
there went down onto the fifth floor um
01:30:34
the fire was out at that point or the
01:30:35
firemen were just just um in the the
01:30:38
late stages of putting the whole fire
01:30:40
out in the fifth floor function room um
01:30:42
and you know we went down there and
01:30:44
we're just trying to figure out how we
01:30:45
could get into the corridor cuz the
01:30:47
whole function room was just destroyed
01:30:50
um and it was it looked a little bit
01:30:52
difficult to get to the other side and
01:30:54
it was an open space as well which is
01:30:55
not ideal so while we were looking um
01:30:58
out of the smoke out of the corridor
01:31:01
come these three guys and they Pilots
01:31:04
they Russian Pilots dressed in their
01:31:07
white short sleeve shirts with their
01:31:10
Peak cats and there just their trundler
01:31:11
bags you know their carryon bags just
01:31:13
trundling along uh made their way out
01:31:15
and we went are you guys all right and
01:31:17
they went good good and and then they
01:31:20
left yeah I know it was just random and
01:31:22
they were just clean you know creases in
01:31:25
their arms and stuff like that I was
01:31:26
thinking where theyy guys guys you know
01:31:29
what have you been up to you know and um
01:31:31
yeah just walked out and then obviously
01:31:32
got in the taxi and headed out to the
01:31:34
the international airport to take you
01:31:35
know to
01:31:37
get I was thinking what the hell this is
01:31:39
crazy that's so weird it's just random
01:31:42
so um we ended up um uh there was a
01:31:45
balcony that went around the side of the
01:31:48
um uh down the western side of the hotel
01:31:52
and then went into the fifth floor
01:31:54
so we decided to go we here actually
01:31:56
started firing from so we wanted to go
01:31:58
you know to work it back from the firing
01:32:00
point so we started going down the uh
01:32:03
the balcony and in the middle of the
01:32:04
balcony was air conditioning ducting and
01:32:07
um and then past that were expanded
01:32:09
cartridges from his AK-47 so we're like
01:32:12
okay cool that's where he's where he's
01:32:13
done his thing so we stopped short of
01:32:14
the air conditioning du ducting and
01:32:16
that'll the air conditioning ducting
01:32:18
will become apparent later on but we
01:32:21
stopped short of it luckily and then um
01:32:24
we started discussing whether or not
01:32:26
we'd throw a grenade in there or a
01:32:27
flashbang we said well we don't you know
01:32:29
we just saw three guys come out um you
01:32:32
know with their with their suitcases so
01:32:34
maybe we'll just put in a flashband
01:32:35
grenade and essentially what a flashband
01:32:37
grenade in is it's non-lethal it's just
01:32:39
as a grenade that has whole lot of
01:32:40
explosives all all around the outside of
01:32:42
it but they but they just make the
01:32:45
grenade you know bounce around and it
01:32:47
doesn't do much damage might hit you in
01:32:48
the head and that's about it but it's
01:32:49
kind of nonlethal option they just sort
01:32:51
of you just bewildered after just distra
01:32:56
dists throws
01:32:59
youb we see flang thre the flashbang
01:33:02
grenade in around the corner and it just
01:33:04
went boom boom boom boom boom and then
01:33:05
all of a sudden we just started taking a
01:33:07
heavy weight of fire from the inner
01:33:08
Cordon again now we just straight away
01:33:12
duck down and little did we know and
01:33:15
just there was these like these panels
01:33:17
that were across the what do you call it
01:33:19
the ballustrade and and they had gaps
01:33:22
like that so panel a meter and then
01:33:24
little Gap like that and they sort of
01:33:25
all went down down and there was a
01:33:27
railing on top now we all hunkered down
01:33:29
behind those and luckily for us it was
01:33:32
concrete maybe like that and I think and
01:33:35
it must have been reinforced cuz it
01:33:36
wasn't you know what these bullets
01:33:37
weren't going in and out what I was
01:33:39
worried about though you know I was
01:33:41
looking up on the wall and I could see I
01:33:44
could see sort of the Roch the chunks
01:33:46
coming off the wall but I don't want to
01:33:47
see like big chunks from their 12.7 mm U
01:33:52
mounted weapons that they had on
01:33:54
heavy machine guns that they had on top
01:33:55
of their technicals um so we hunker down
01:33:59
and we're there for quite a while I
01:34:01
can't remember how long and um I turned
01:34:03
around and looked back the way we came
01:34:05
and I could see this Afghan policeman
01:34:07
looking around the corner and I was like
01:34:09
you know get them to stop firing and um
01:34:11
he just just kept looking at us and so I
01:34:14
got up on my radio and and I just said
01:34:17
someone get these guys to stop firing
01:34:19
otherwise we're all going to die down
01:34:20
here and um our interpreter we got our
01:34:24
interpret across and he put his hand up
01:34:25
and was just telling them to stop um and
01:34:27
then they stopped um and this I'm not
01:34:30
too sure how that long that went on for
01:34:31
but it was you know 10 seconds is long
01:34:34
enough you know uh when it's that heavy
01:34:37
um if those panels hadn't been concrete
01:34:39
uh we we'd all be dead uh the whole
01:34:42
assault group would have been gone um
01:34:44
and that's a fact um so we were very
01:34:47
very lucky uh happen that's um yeah
01:34:50
there's there's there's one thing that
01:34:51
you guys had in common with the the tban
01:34:53
that day you like you were both prepared
01:34:54
to die yep I suppose they they went
01:34:57
there knowing they were going to die to
01:34:59
become MERS or whatever but you guys
01:35:00
were prepared to
01:35:01
die yeah and I mean that's that's that's
01:35:04
the job you know and that's the job and
01:35:06
again you know I'm not trying to be a
01:35:07
tough guy or anything like that but just
01:35:09
it's just a um you know it's a matter of
01:35:11
fact we're there to do a job that's our
01:35:13
job you know just like you know
01:35:15
someone's down the dairy selling you
01:35:17
coca cross account I know it's not the
01:35:18
same but it's it is it's kind of that's
01:35:21
what I've signed up to do you know I've
01:35:22
made peace with it made peace with it
01:35:24
you know and that's what we're we're
01:35:25
they do and again you know uh and like
01:35:28
I've said said many times before it's
01:35:31
like training for rugby but never really
01:35:32
playing the game you know as soon as
01:35:34
it's game time you really want to get
01:35:35
into the game you know what I mean and
01:35:36
so when youve been out of the game for a
01:35:37
while you defitely want to get back in
01:35:39
there and see how you role particular
01:35:40
particularly in these these Peak Peak
01:35:42
experien these Peak situations so yeah
01:35:45
so um yeah the firing stopped very lucky
01:35:48
to get away with that um Steve was in
01:35:50
front of me and and I said is everyone
01:35:52
okay and um Steve said uh I think i'
01:35:54
been shot through the side of the head I
01:35:55
was like what um and and um he was he
01:35:59
was just in front of me so he turned
01:36:00
around said give me a look and he um and
01:36:03
I he said I justed through here and I
01:36:04
had to look at him in the the round I
01:36:06
don't know what happened it must have
01:36:07
been a Ricochet or I'm not too sure if
01:36:10
his head was too far back in between the
01:36:11
gaps but um it had gone just straight
01:36:14
through there and skimmed might has just
01:36:17
skimmed off his skull and his and his
01:36:18
ear was SED Trump style oh yeah pretty
01:36:21
yeah pretty much yeah yeah pretty much
01:36:23
yeah and um and and so uh I looked at
01:36:27
him and he looked at me and I said have
01:36:30
you had
01:36:33
enough I had to take the opportunity I
01:36:36
had to take the opportunity this is
01:36:37
human human right it sounds crazy coping
01:36:39
meis sounds crazy well that's what I
01:36:40
mean it sounds crazy and he looked at me
01:36:42
and he smiled and I went have you had
01:36:44
enough
01:36:45
yet cuz he had just been you know been
01:36:47
down in the stairwell got grenaded now
01:36:50
he's up here shot through the side of
01:36:52
the head and he's and he's starts and he
01:36:54
starts laughing and I said yeah you're
01:36:56
going to hospital now and he goes no I
01:36:58
don't need to go to hospital and I said
01:36:59
you're going to
01:37:01
hospital I'm taking you out you know
01:37:03
what I mean but this is the mindset
01:37:05
again selection One Foot In Front of the
01:37:07
other get the job done you know what I
01:37:09
mean like that's it you know like the
01:37:10
job's not done yet but um you know once
01:37:13
that happened everyone else was fine and
01:37:16
I just said That's it man like this is
01:37:19
going to go Pier sh we don't have comms
01:37:21
with the in cordon and and that and and
01:37:23
we've just been shot at by them twice
01:37:25
this was a little bit too close um
01:37:28
there's plenty of security inside the
01:37:29
hotel now they can they can sort this
01:37:32
out so uh we're all happy with that went
01:37:35
down the stairwell um we had a medic
01:37:37
down there so we used him to um patch uh
01:37:39
Steve up best he could and then we sent
01:37:41
him off to hospital got on the vehicles
01:37:43
I gave a hand over to the to the um
01:37:45
incident controller on the ground an
01:37:47
Afghan Commander um he said yep no probs
01:37:50
and so we started to make our way back
01:37:53
out to to Camp warehouse now what we
01:37:55
didn't know is that the CIU had gone
01:37:57
back they got wind of the terrorist that
01:38:01
had shot out through the top floor and
01:38:03
they were told to come back and sort it
01:38:05
out so as we're going into the city we
01:38:07
intercepted them and then followed on
01:38:09
behind them because wherever they go we
01:38:10
go so although I wanted to leave we
01:38:12
couldn't we couldn't leave now because
01:38:14
we still we're in a position our role
01:38:16
was still there to enable them so you
01:38:18
guys like
01:38:19
groaning not really no it was just now I
01:38:22
was just thinking right with we're going
01:38:23
to have we're you know I'm going to have
01:38:25
to have a discussion with them about
01:38:27
firstly leaving without telling me and
01:38:29
and what has happened post that and uh
01:38:32
now we're just going to go through a
01:38:34
situation where we have to be real
01:38:35
methodical and clear everything um
01:38:38
completely now yeah and and yeah so went
01:38:42
back um you know said to the squadron
01:38:45
commander like why did you guys leave us
01:38:47
behind we have no comm's connection with
01:38:50
u local forces he said oh sorry you know
01:38:52
not good uh I said yeah we we're very
01:38:54
lucky we just about we've been shot
01:38:56
twice by the the interance so um let's
01:38:59
get the groups in there check the floors
01:39:01
again um know that there's someone up on
01:39:03
the fifth floor and um to be prepared
01:39:05
for it so he said okay cool we'll sit
01:39:07
down here let us know when it's clear
01:39:09
and we'll support you if you need it he
01:39:10
goes yep no rose so everyone got about
01:39:13
their business there's a group up the
01:39:15
top um they went around the same way we
01:39:17
did on the fifth floor on the balcony
01:39:19
and then they crossed over the um the
01:39:21
air conditioning duck couple of guys got
01:39:23
over all right another person went over
01:39:24
kicked it and activated a rudimentary
01:39:27
IED which is an explosive device so
01:39:29
basically booby tra the um the air
01:39:31
conditioning ducting oh um and so that
01:39:34
could have been us you know um don't
01:39:36
know why we stopped short of it who
01:39:38
knows luck yeah just luck again um and
01:39:41
so one of the CIU guys ran back down who
01:39:43
got um who connected it and he had a big
01:39:45
chunk out of his arms so we patched him
01:39:47
up and then he went off the hospital so
01:39:49
we ran up to the fifth floor again uh
01:39:51
got our EOD team to drag clear the rest
01:39:54
of the debris just in case there's any
01:39:56
other uh IOD in there and what they've
01:39:59
done is just pausing that um going back
01:40:02
to the start when they first went into
01:40:04
the initial attack so they went in there
01:40:06
obviously killed some guests took
01:40:07
positions up in the hotel the roof and
01:40:09
then they started rigging up little um
01:40:12
trip wire grenades around the place so
01:40:14
they they rigged the place up as well
01:40:16
just with secondary explosives so um we
01:40:18
had to be uh careful of that um and that
01:40:22
that uh that actually
01:40:23
claimed a few lives after we left as
01:40:25
well again we didn't have the capability
01:40:27
to do the we had a smaller reduced
01:40:30
number of special force of soldiers we
01:40:32
had to leave it over to uh bigger
01:40:34
entities to go through there and do a
01:40:36
proper clearance of the hotel in terms
01:40:37
of clearing of explosives and bits and
01:40:39
pieces we could only do so much just
01:40:41
we're essentially one assault group um
01:40:43
which is not ideal so anyway went up
01:40:46
there cleared this air conditioning
01:40:47
duting um went into the fifth floor
01:40:49
grabbed some of the cou guys and so we
01:40:52
had to do manual entry into um these
01:40:54
rooms um because you know we weren't set
01:40:57
up for um 150 rooms in a hotel you know
01:41:01
we're essentially doing high-risk
01:41:03
arrests in the city um and you know
01:41:06
compounds which were quite small you
01:41:07
know like a house like this um or out in
01:41:09
the in the rural areas so you know to do
01:41:12
a hotel like that you need um you know
01:41:14
quite a number of people with specialist
01:41:16
explosives and um and you know people
01:41:20
with different roles um so we had to do
01:41:22
it um manually
01:41:23
as then using a hulie bar and um a bar
01:41:26
that can open doors um or you know just
01:41:29
kicking the doors down so we're using
01:41:31
the C you to do that they blew out quite
01:41:33
quick so we had our guys sort of getting
01:41:34
in the mix with them so we got sort of
01:41:37
halfway down the
01:41:38
corridor and we're making it our way uh
01:41:41
I was on a right angle and um so the
01:41:44
door's like that and I was on a right
01:41:45
angle here the entry team were making
01:41:47
their way in this way um so they cracked
01:41:51
they cracked the door as soon as the
01:41:52
door started opening up up bam there was
01:41:54
a massive explosion and um and
01:41:58
everything just disappeared into a ball
01:42:00
of dust at this point um and I've never
01:42:02
had it before and I've never had it
01:42:04
since um and hopefully I don't have it
01:42:06
since but um everything went into slow
01:42:08
motion for me so the the camera started
01:42:11
slowing down um obviously I now know
01:42:13
that my brain is um you know trying is
01:42:16
wide open and try to absorb the
01:42:18
information that's in front of it um and
01:42:21
I just saw the smoke slowly clear and
01:42:24
then out of it the CIU was sort of just
01:42:26
slowly trying to CLW their way out of
01:42:28
the uh the rubble and I could see look
01:42:30
of you know shock and disbelief on their
01:42:32
faces I grabbed them as they went past
01:42:34
pulled them past me and then um I called
01:42:37
I could hear someone call out man down
01:42:40
and the slow the smoke slowly um sort of
01:42:43
um disappeared and directly opposite the
01:42:46
door one of our guys um was slumped up
01:42:48
against the wall and so I could see him
01:42:51
and um and I just ran I ran in
01:42:54
everything started to speed up again
01:42:56
grabbed him picked him up pulled him out
01:42:58
of the um the um out of the the way of
01:43:02
the door and into the next room cuz it
01:43:04
was all they're all made of concrete and
01:43:06
I said your right man and he was um
01:43:08
non-responsive as and he was he was uh
01:43:11
conscious but not responding um to um uh
01:43:16
verbal cues and so I ran him down the
01:43:18
corridor put him in a chair he was white
01:43:21
um he he had a few cuts to his face and
01:43:24
um and in his arms and um he started he
01:43:28
started to go he starting to go
01:43:29
unconscious so I just yelled in his ears
01:43:31
to stay awake and then um we started to
01:43:34
patch him up um I started getting
01:43:37
involved in that because he's you know
01:43:38
he's a m of mine and then you know as a
01:43:40
ground Commander you shouldn't be
01:43:41
getting in on the finer details so pull
01:43:43
myself back got the guys to get on him
01:43:45
and then I moved down the corridor to
01:43:46
see if I could help with any anyone else
01:43:49
got down there the room was uh destroyed
01:43:52
um know pipes were you know the water
01:43:54
pipes were severed you know there's
01:43:56
water spearing everywhere the whole room
01:43:58
was just destroyed um I could see other
01:44:01
CIU members uh getting pulled out down
01:44:03
the coral they were
01:44:05
injured um and I said to my mate um one
01:44:08
of the other operators here I said what
01:44:10
was that was it an IED uh that was
01:44:13
connected to the door was a was a
01:44:14
suicide um suicide vest he said I was a
01:44:17
suicide V and I said and I said how do
01:44:19
you know that and uh he said his head's
01:44:22
at the door
01:44:23
oh yeah so you know when they when they
01:44:25
have these suicide vest generally what
01:44:27
happens is their head pops off and his
01:44:29
head was sitting right there at the door
01:44:30
so like oh yep so what he had done was
01:44:33
um you know he he had heard us coming
01:44:35
down the corridor and he was just
01:44:36
waiting playing the waiting game waited
01:44:37
for us to come all the way in and then
01:44:39
as we started making entry he just
01:44:40
walked straight up to the door B
01:44:42
detonated himself in the hope of ideally
01:44:44
taking yeah killing a couple of people
01:44:46
and taking them out with them so um
01:44:49
there's a there's an interesting news
01:44:52
article from Al jazer on YouTube um that
01:44:57
your listeners would probably want to
01:44:58
see is that um uh it's actually got the
01:45:02
conversation between the guys in the
01:45:03
hotel and their handlers in Pakistan um
01:45:07
and you can hear the guy talking about
01:45:09
how he's just going to wait on the
01:45:10
mattress he can hear us coming and then
01:45:13
um he's looking forward to you know
01:45:15
meeting his maker and and they having a
01:45:17
laugh about it so um yeah it's uh yeah
01:45:20
it's very very very interesting stuff so
01:45:23
yeah um
01:45:25
so the guy that uh got injured there so
01:45:28
we had obviously St gone to the hospital
01:45:30
now we had this guy uh who was injured
01:45:33
um and um we didn't know um you know
01:45:38
what what was potentially uh wrong with
01:45:41
him other than you know the superficial
01:45:42
wounds that he had um were're not
01:45:44
superficial they're pretty significant
01:45:46
but um we needed to get into a hospital
01:45:48
so he could really get checked out by
01:45:50
your standards are superficial well well
01:45:52
yeah yeah was just it's more not not
01:45:54
superval but um to a point where you
01:45:56
know our area of first aid expertise
01:45:59
comes to the Limit and so we need to get
01:46:00
them off to someone else just in case
01:46:02
things go terribly wrong like the fact
01:46:04
he had a whole lot of ball bearings um
01:46:06
fight at him um meant that uh some some
01:46:09
of the some of those ball bearings were
01:46:11
were inside of him and um interestingly
01:46:13
enough you know they found when he got
01:46:15
to the hospital that um one of the bull
01:46:17
bearings I think it ricocheted off his
01:46:19
um collar bone could be wrong um but it
01:46:21
actually um uh I think it went into his
01:46:25
chest cavity and potentially even
01:46:27
punction his lung and he was um
01:46:28
tensioning just before he got tension
01:46:30
thorax uh just before he got to the
01:46:32
hospital so lucky we got him out of
01:46:34
there so that was it for me done um we
01:46:37
taking two casualties I had a small team
01:46:40
I had to think about you know an
01:46:41
operation that was coming up in 3 days
01:46:43
time um so you know there's a lot of
01:46:46
things to think about there I need how
01:46:48
long is it going to take people to come
01:46:49
from New Zealand quite a long time um
01:46:52
and then they have to inducted so um
01:46:54
yeah I just thought you know things are
01:46:57
going from bad to worse uh if there's
01:47:00
anyone else in here I'm just going to
01:47:01
let the the CIU deal with it they can do
01:47:03
it themselves pass that point so um yeah
01:47:06
we bailed out of there uh left the CIU
01:47:08
to it and um and then came back and and
01:47:12
got the other guy to hospital checked in
01:47:14
with them made sure steel was all right
01:47:16
uh the guy that we pulled back from the
01:47:19
fifth floor he um went ended up going to
01:47:23
Germany straight away uh so we saw him
01:47:26
off and then uh we came back did a
01:47:28
debrief uh had a bit of breakfast lunch
01:47:30
brunch and then uh went to sleep and
01:47:33
then uh sort of debriefed the um at the
01:47:36
command meeting at about 6:00 and
01:47:39
um yeah and then yeah we're out the door
01:47:42
again a couple of days after that so how
01:47:45
do you how do you sleep after that in
01:47:46
terms
01:47:50
of yeah know I know you're tired you're
01:47:52
un un believably exhausted but just um
01:47:55
when you close your when when you close
01:47:57
your eyes like what do you
01:47:59
see uh
01:48:02
Darkness okay no yeah I know you're
01:48:04
saying I don't see I just I just to be
01:48:06
honest I was that tired like by the time
01:48:08
we had come and because it's um again
01:48:12
you you because of your training you you
01:48:15
kind of switch off but you don't it just
01:48:16
depends I mean in in Camp Warehouse
01:48:18
where we were I I could actually switch
01:48:20
off in Camp Olympus when where I was at
01:48:22
and in a previous tour that was where it
01:48:25
was difficult to switch off because you
01:48:27
wereing straight straight outside the
01:48:29
Gat whereas over in Camp Warehouse you
01:48:30
got a full Coalition Force looking after
01:48:32
your security and so I could actually
01:48:34
sleep so you know by the time I went
01:48:36
back done the debrief went and had a
01:48:38
feed had a shower soon as I had a shower
01:48:40
and I was out of my gear and my weapons
01:48:42
were away it was sort of like my brain
01:48:43
was like oh yeah we're done and then it
01:48:45
was just you know cuz you can imagine
01:48:47
the adrenaline that's being secreted
01:48:48
over a 10hour period it's just you know
01:48:51
the whole system yeah and so um yeah and
01:48:55
so I just I'm quite good like that I can
01:48:58
go to sleep in 30 seconds ask my wife
01:49:01
you you guys you guys are like um like
01:49:03
deprogrammed human beings aren't
01:49:05
you yeah uh in what way like it just
01:49:09
just how matter effect you know you you
01:49:11
have to have to do everything like in an
01:49:13
environment like that it's just so so
01:49:15
matter of effect it's like your robots
01:49:16
in a way yeah it's um but there's no you
01:49:19
you have to remove every bit of emotion
01:49:21
from it really don't you Yeah well yeah
01:49:23
and that's the thing and again this is
01:49:25
this is the beauty of doing training
01:49:27
that is as close to realism as possible
01:49:29
and that's what we're trying to do um is
01:49:31
trying to get that that realism and
01:49:33
training um with everything and so
01:49:36
that's what sets you up for success and
01:49:38
I think you know research shows that
01:49:40
that is that that is what helps with the
01:49:43
mental uh your mental health as well
01:49:45
post a lot of these incidents because of
01:49:47
yeah if it was anyone else um you know
01:49:50
they' probably have nightmares for the
01:49:52
rest of their life but for us um because
01:49:55
it's been repetitive training over and
01:49:56
over and over again um it's like oh yeah
01:49:59
okay cool still very significant event
01:50:01
you're being shot at um you know there's
01:50:03
been massive explosions but again you
01:50:05
know standing a right angle on that at
01:50:07
that door and the explosion go off it
01:50:09
was a shock and that's why my brain
01:50:11
slowed down but I've been on a right
01:50:14
angle on a door doing explosions for
01:50:16
years you know and so um yeah it's not
01:50:19
like anything haunted me I mean I can't
01:50:22
speak for again this is me personally in
01:50:24
my life um but I'm sure you know if if I
01:50:28
get uh in it in it deep with a lot of
01:50:30
the guys um they may have had different
01:50:33
experiences post that um and it just
01:50:35
depends but that's my perspective
01:50:37
realism of training sets you up for
01:50:39
Success the repetitive um shooting and
01:50:42
exposure to the different
01:50:44
scenarios um and the problems that are
01:50:47
put in front of you that you got to
01:50:48
solve the selection course the front
01:50:50
loading of the selection course and
01:50:51
everything else that they put in front
01:50:52
of you
01:50:53
um sets you up for success for the
01:50:54
battlefield and and after um a night and
01:50:58
day like that do you have is there a lot
01:51:00
of paperwork like a big incident report
01:51:02
or a review you know yeah yeah you got
01:51:05
to write a report and um then that that
01:51:08
that gets presented to the senior
01:51:10
National officer and then he represents
01:51:12
that at the um the ISF soft level so the
01:51:15
Coalition level to the fourstar general
01:51:18
um because a tax like that um clearly
01:51:22
you need to be briefing and then
01:51:24
obviously that goes back to New Zealand
01:51:25
and will go all the way up to the prime
01:51:26
minister to say that you know New
01:51:28
Zealand troops have been involved in a
01:51:29
significant event in the city and and
01:51:31
John Key um obviously relayed that and
01:51:34
he said exactly as as we said you know
01:51:36
we had to take over we had to take the
01:51:38
lead we made that decision and and that
01:51:41
was for the protection of um not only
01:51:43
the ciou um but Al also you know
01:51:45
civilian lives and around the hotel and
01:51:48
and security forces
01:51:49
so so yeah I mean you know
01:51:54
when when I talk about this um it's a
01:51:57
it's a it's a it is a peak event a peak
01:52:00
experience was it was definitely a
01:52:02
culminating point in my career like I'm
01:52:04
not too sure if anything could top that
01:52:07
um but at the time um you know one of
01:52:09
the boys said hey I think this probably
01:52:10
one of the one of the biggest operations
01:52:13
um that the regimen has been on and I
01:52:15
was like yeah you reckon you know so
01:52:18
just tossing it up you know but again I
01:52:21
was on the phone you know I was talking
01:52:23
to headquarters and I was still in
01:52:24
process mode you know and we really were
01:52:26
only halfway um that and I was like yeah
01:52:29
I guess so and it didn't really dawn on
01:52:31
me until um you know I got handed the
01:52:35
the letter um stating that I was going
01:52:37
to get presented with the gallantry star
01:52:39
and even then I said to the co you
01:52:41
sure D it's worth that he said well I
01:52:44
don't make these decisions so yeah I
01:52:47
don't know [ __ ] it makes me think what
01:52:48
what the hell do you have to do for a VC
01:52:50
oh my god um do
01:52:53
this this might be a entirely
01:52:55
inappropriate question um like do you
01:52:57
know how many people you you killed that
01:52:58
day or in total um so well we we took
01:53:02
all nine of them out yeah so we just
01:53:03
hunted them down so between us and the
01:53:05
um and the um the guys in the platform
01:53:10
above our heads yeah nine they're bad
01:53:13
people so it feels like you're removing
01:53:14
a cancer you're actually saving lives by
01:53:16
taking yeah it's a oneway ticket that's
01:53:19
uh you know whether you like it or not
01:53:21
theyve they are in there to um get the
01:53:25
world's media on them they're there to
01:53:27
be martys which is a good thing for them
01:53:29
as well because they think they're going
01:53:30
to a better place and maybe they are who
01:53:32
knows um they are there to legitimize um
01:53:36
themselves as a you know an organization
01:53:38
a terrorist organization um they're
01:53:41
there to get uh to maintain their
01:53:43
funding streams to get further funding
01:53:44
streams and then also recruitment plays
01:53:47
a role in that so they glamorize
01:53:49
martydom in those operations and uh
01:53:51
that's all part what they're about um
01:53:53
and you know at the end of the day if
01:53:55
we're looking at perspective then you
01:53:57
know where the Dark Knights say the
01:53:58
white nights you know if you ask me I'm
01:54:00
the White Knight there the Dark Knights
01:54:01
it's just that um interesting uh
01:54:04
position that we find ourselves in there
01:54:05
but um you know again going around and
01:54:08
killing innocent civilians and that type
01:54:09
of thing is just um you know not
01:54:12
something that the progressive World um
01:54:14
will tolerate and um it's people like
01:54:17
myself and my team and other you know
01:54:20
people that have come after me and
01:54:21
Special Forces around the world and
01:54:23
security forces around the world that's
01:54:24
what we're designed to do is to meet
01:54:26
these guys head on and make sure they
01:54:27
don't do any further damage when you um
01:54:30
heard you tell that that story and you
01:54:31
tell it so well now on on a number of
01:54:33
podcasts do you um when you tell it are
01:54:36
you sort of on autopilot or are you a
01:54:38
can you smell it and see every time it's
01:54:40
bur into my skull yeah I can I can walk
01:54:43
it through in my head every oh thanks
01:54:44
for sharing it cuz I'm sure it's not
01:54:47
easy yeah it's um it's it's um yeah I've
01:54:52
said it's I've talked about it so much
01:54:54
it's um yeah the best the best thing
01:54:57
about it is is actually extracting
01:54:59
further information from it like I
01:55:01
didn't actually realize until um you
01:55:04
know the last few hours actually that uh
01:55:08
it took us about 6 hours to get up to
01:55:10
the to the roof I I didn't really think
01:55:12
about it and now I'm like man how where
01:55:16
did that time go should have taken the
01:55:18
left way quicker yeah maybe I should
01:55:19
have put the stopwatch on and go okay so
01:55:22
that was um that was 2011 and then um
01:55:24
2016 um your son's born and you're
01:55:27
suffering burnout and that's when you
01:55:29
that's when you leave the army so did
01:55:30
five five more years um yeah was was
01:55:33
there a moment or an incident in
01:55:35
particular that you realized [ __ ] I got
01:55:37
to get out I got to do some work on
01:55:39
me yeah so um by the time I was leaving
01:55:43
I realized uh that I was completely I
01:55:46
was just tired all the time tired I was
01:55:48
burnt out um I did have long and
01:55:50
shortterm memory loss
01:55:52
um and you're probably thinking did you
01:55:54
have any memory at all and no I didn't
01:55:55
really um that became apparent that
01:55:58
raised its head when I noticed that a
01:56:01
friend of mine who I'd sered with in
01:56:02
Balian in the regiment n him for 20
01:56:04
years came into my office and we're
01:56:05
having a chat and then he left and I was
01:56:07
and I was thinking what's his name again
01:56:11
and I had to look on the computer to
01:56:12
find his name and I was thinking uh this
01:56:15
isn't good I wonder why this is
01:56:16
happening you know and I found I had to
01:56:18
have my notebook with me at all times
01:56:19
and I had to write everything down
01:56:21
otherwise I'd forget it you're only 42
01:56:23
at this point uh 41 42 40 yeah 40 41 um
01:56:28
and then and then I noticed that I was
01:56:30
sort of just dragging my feet when I was
01:56:32
walking around I'd trip over the
01:56:33
doorstep I'd always trip over the
01:56:34
doorstep I'd be sitting right right in
01:56:36
like this in meetings and people would
01:56:38
be like you know sit up what are you
01:56:40
doing sit up and um and and I just yeah
01:56:44
I was just I was just a I was sitting
01:56:46
inside myself you know it's just it was
01:56:49
very strange and um you yeah I just I
01:56:52
remember talking to my wife and on a
01:56:55
Sunday night and I just said man I think
01:56:58
I think that's it you know and it's a
01:57:00
hard realization cuz it's really hard to
01:57:02
get in there I've had all these
01:57:04
experiences um you know I was I become
01:57:08
an officer so I'd taken on a uh new
01:57:12
position and um career path and my goal
01:57:15
was to like take that all the way um but
01:57:18
I just it was a moment of realization
01:57:21
and just being realis sck and just
01:57:22
saying am I going to be be able to give
01:57:24
it my all and um yeah it was a hard pill
01:57:27
to SW so um yeah my son's there my
01:57:31
wife's here my wife highly ambitious
01:57:33
she's got um her own path to travel as
01:57:36
well and it was a case of um you know at
01:57:39
that particular point in time is is
01:57:41
supporting what she was doing so so yeah
01:57:45
put on my P papers the next day um I had
01:57:48
3 months worth of um long service Lea
01:57:53
and um that was my whole sort of uh
01:57:57
leaving time if you like as part of my
01:57:59
contract is 3 months you know by time
01:58:00
you put your papers in 3 months and you
01:58:01
can leave so put my papers in spent a
01:58:04
week just putting my gears away signing
01:58:07
at the March out form left came back for
01:58:09
my farewell and then I drove out the
01:58:11
gates and then it was it and this is
01:58:15
where um you know initially it was okay
01:58:18
CU I thought I was on leave you know had
01:58:20
that leave mentality and then they went
01:58:22
into months and then all of a sudden the
01:58:24
realization I've left and now I'm not
01:58:27
part of the culture yeah and it just go
01:58:30
and then it started rebling itself and
01:58:31
then I so then I started
01:58:34
um trying to replicate the the pattern
01:58:39
and so the first thing I'd do would be
01:58:42
um PT in the morning you know just be
01:58:44
training hard um whether there's a long
01:58:46
runs or you know going out and um you
01:58:49
know smashing smashing the assault bike
01:58:51
and doing weights and wads and whatever
01:58:53
whatever you call it hour hour and a
01:58:54
half you know on the rower and then I'd
01:58:57
come back in I'd be studying for my
01:58:59
masters I had the um you know uh I was
01:59:03
renovating my house I thought oh you
01:59:05
know maybe I'll go and get a pistol join
01:59:06
a pistol cup keep my shooting up keep
01:59:08
the rifle get a rifle do the rifle
01:59:10
shooting just comat mindset you know
01:59:12
staying in that mode you know to to stay
01:59:14
close to um something I'm comfortable
01:59:18
with um and so I picked up on all of
01:59:20
that um um I also picked up that um and
01:59:25
and I've said this before as as
01:59:28
the you know I used to get angry uh
01:59:31
coming coming home was when I was still
01:59:33
serving I'd be quite angry coming home
01:59:37
and um and so I get in my car and
01:59:39
normally you know the perception was as
01:59:41
a trip Commander for me personally was
01:59:43
that you I needed to be at work before
01:59:45
the boys and leave after the boys and
01:59:47
that was just me personally you know no
01:59:48
one was asking me to do that but um
01:59:51
exell thing yeah excellent thing yeah
01:59:53
and and what I think you know how I
01:59:55
think a SS officer should be acting um
01:59:57
but my son was born you know I had um
01:59:59
responsibilities at home so I had to
02:00:01
leave about 4:30 while the boys still
02:00:03
there and that that was really hard pill
02:00:05
to swallow and so I used to get angrier
02:00:07
the close got home come home and then
02:00:09
you know put my bag of [ __ ] on the
02:00:11
ground and expect people to eat it you
02:00:12
know not not in a physical way or
02:00:14
anything like that just just being you
02:00:16
literally being a pain in the ass and
02:00:17
just just everyone having to walk on
02:00:18
eggshells around you yeah yeah exactly
02:00:20
yeah distracted and you know not present
02:00:23
and yeah you just tend to I mean it's
02:00:25
not just not just you like um all of us
02:00:28
you tend to save your worst behavior for
02:00:29
the people you love the most it's just
02:00:31
how it is yeah it's unfiltered it's like
02:00:32
your kids right it's your your kids when
02:00:34
they come home unfiltered why cuz it's
02:00:37
because they can you know it's a safe
02:00:39
space you know what I mean but you're an
02:00:41
adult so uh yeah yeah but but it
02:00:44
happened over and over and over again
02:00:46
and then uh I just came to realize that
02:00:49
um you know I thought she was taking me
02:00:50
from my away from my High strategic P
02:00:52
purpose like taking me away from work uh
02:00:55
and what what I was um what I um uh
02:00:59
perceived to be something that was
02:01:00
really big and important and it is but
02:01:03
you know the most important part of your
02:01:04
life is your family and um you know
02:01:07
they're going to be the ones ear when
02:01:08
everything else is uh sort of shuts the
02:01:10
doors on you so that was interesting and
02:01:12
so anyway going going traveling forward
02:01:14
again to transition um you know I had to
02:01:17
figure that out um you know I'd have
02:01:20
dark thoughts when I was running and I
02:01:21
was using those to motivate me to get
02:01:23
get my energy to go out on on runs and
02:01:25
train and just be this you know Savage
02:01:28
yeah yeah yeah just what do you mean d
02:01:29
thoughts oh like you know if I went for
02:01:32
a run I'd be thinking about or even in
02:01:34
the gym I'd be thinking about scenarios
02:01:36
overseas you know where you know we come
02:01:39
under contact and this would happen that
02:01:40
like just running it through my head and
02:01:41
I just allow that to happen I just allow
02:01:43
my brain to to invent any scenario that
02:01:45
it wanted to um to give me the energy to
02:01:48
just just get after it and then if I was
02:01:50
running you know around peur you know I
02:01:52
was thinking oh you know if a couple of
02:01:53
guys come around the corner I'll do this
02:01:54
and that just crazy just why why what
02:01:56
was the point and so I slowly started
02:01:59
picking up on that and then I I would
02:02:01
pick up on that and then I would start
02:02:04
overlaying that with positive thoughts
02:02:06
so I started thinking about things I
02:02:08
wanted to do build I wanted to build a
02:02:10
um security company like Niche so I
02:02:12
started just as soon as that would
02:02:14
happen I just started going into design
02:02:16
mode and i' start designing things on my
02:02:18
head or you know something that I wanted
02:02:19
to achieve in skydiving start
02:02:21
visualizing that where I wanted to go
02:02:23
planning and then it took about it
02:02:25
literally took about six weeks six seven
02:02:27
weeks probably um and then my mind just
02:02:29
changed and it started going into
02:02:30
concept mode uh rather than the dark
02:02:33
thoughts and I realized I could get
02:02:34
energy on on that the other thing was um
02:02:39
uh like hypervigilance and being
02:02:41
completely aware of your surroundings
02:02:43
like always no one's going to get me you
02:02:45
know what I mean like um making sure
02:02:46
your head's on a swivel all times um and
02:02:50
so I had to shut that down that was a
02:02:51
hard one
02:02:52
because you know I didn't want anyone to
02:02:54
catch me out you know on the on the Trot
02:02:56
you know like if someone got me I'd be
02:02:57
like man you know I should have known
02:02:59
you know or sitting in the corner you
02:03:02
know with your back against the wall
02:03:03
observing the the entry uh to the to the
02:03:06
you know to the restaurant or wherever
02:03:07
you're sitting I mean all that's just
02:03:09
just playing in your mind so I had to
02:03:11
that was hard you you even did that
02:03:13
today when you arrived at my apartment
02:03:14
there's a
02:03:15
there's what's I'm already watching yeah
02:03:17
I'm already looking thing over there
02:03:19
yeah um but um yeah I find that I I have
02:03:23
definitely switched a lot of that stuff
02:03:25
off I'm a lot more
02:03:27
Cala um you
02:03:29
know things don't draw me in as much as
02:03:32
they used to um but yeah it was just
02:03:35
recognizing all these all these things a
02:03:36
distraction of you know um things that
02:03:39
happen on operations uh things that you
02:03:41
have to do and you know where you need
02:03:43
to be and I'm still working on I'm by no
02:03:46
means the finished product I mean we're
02:03:47
all we're all living in a fastpaced
02:03:49
world we're all busy and stuff like that
02:03:50
and trying to be present at at one
02:03:52
particular point in time gets quite
02:03:54
difficult um and so you know it's trying
02:03:57
to make sure I got time for my son and
02:03:58
my wife uh at the end of the day and and
02:04:00
I'm talking and giving them a hug and a
02:04:02
kiss and that kind of thing and doing
02:04:04
the same when I leave um otherwise that
02:04:06
time passes and you wish you'd had it
02:04:08
back um yeah so it was quite difficult
02:04:12
it was a very tumultuous period between
02:04:14
my wife and I um she's had some
02:04:18
experiences um overseas as well in
02:04:20
critical incidents she was a um an
02:04:22
officer in the New Zealand Army and she
02:04:25
um spent some time away um in Israel we
02:04:27
lived in Israel for a year um and she
02:04:29
was a UN military Observer and she she
02:04:32
got she got taken hostage so um she had
02:04:34
some stuff that she had to work out as
02:04:36
well even though she's a
02:04:38
psychologist and that and so um yeah for
02:04:41
a while there it was just uh you know
02:04:43
beating each other up a little bit not
02:04:44
physically just you know with words um
02:04:46
and and and just working things out and
02:04:50
um I think we're in a better place was
02:04:51
still very busy but um I think we've
02:04:54
just we're sort of sitting on the floor
02:04:57
you know Death By A Thousand Cuts you
02:04:59
know what I mean and it's like you know
02:05:01
we're a we're a lot better than what we
02:05:02
used to be that's for sure but it's
02:05:03
taken quite a bit of time and and you
02:05:06
know and this is this is a path you
02:05:08
travel and so you know if you you either
02:05:11
do or you don't you know if you yeah you
02:05:14
just either do or you don't so we've
02:05:16
we've managed to get this far because
02:05:17
we're quite strong minded and we've
02:05:19
decided that our relationship is worth
02:05:21
um um holding on to and you know for our
02:05:23
son's sake not only for us but um yeah
02:05:26
so still a lot to work on I mean yeah
02:05:30
some of the some of the things that some
02:05:31
of the lwh hanging fruit things uh do
02:05:35
bode well uh in your recovery and
02:05:38
definitely the um the meditative
02:05:40
breathing um yeah I've heard you talk
02:05:42
about this box breathing what is that
02:05:43
yeah box breathing so box breathing is
02:05:45
you know four 4 seconds in 4 seconds
02:05:48
hold 4 seconds out 4 seconds hold and
02:05:50
you just go round and round
02:05:52
um and you know for me you know I sort
02:05:54
of start doing that that deliberate
02:05:56
breathing like full you know
02:05:58
full amount of air in the lungs until
02:06:01
you feel the pains and you hold it and
02:06:03
then you know breathe all the way out so
02:06:04
you got exactly no air in your lungs and
02:06:06
and you hold it for 4 seconds you just
02:06:08
go around the box now I do that for 20
02:06:10
cycles that that sort of dials me in and
02:06:13
then um I sort of I just go to normal
02:06:15
breathing and then I start focusing on
02:06:16
other areas of my body whether it's my
02:06:18
um you know the wind playing with my or
02:06:22
you know I can feel stuff going across
02:06:23
my face the nose my shoulders and then I
02:06:25
go all the way down and then I get to a
02:06:27
point where I'm just listening to my
02:06:28
heartbeat and trying to feel it in my
02:06:30
fingertips which is you know acute
02:06:33
sensory sort of um dialing in on on that
02:06:36
so it gets your mind away from your
02:06:38
thoughts and what will happen is is that
02:06:41
you know as you're going through that
02:06:44
process your mind starts drifting and
02:06:47
wants to drift out into other areas
02:06:48
might be something that you're wanting
02:06:50
to do surely you got a Time to meet or
02:06:52
something that's happened in the past
02:06:53
but you need to be present here or you
02:06:55
know you hear a um you know the sound of
02:06:57
a horn going off from a car but you got
02:06:59
to bring yourself back into the present
02:07:00
moment so all you're really training
02:07:02
there is refocusing so focusing is one
02:07:05
thing but refocusing is a real skill you
02:07:07
know it bring yourself back again and
02:07:08
again again to the present moment and
02:07:10
being present in the present moment and
02:07:12
once you get that you become a lot more
02:07:13
aware about your you know as well as
02:07:15
with the breathing and and and going
02:07:17
back to yourself you start becoming more
02:07:19
aware of how you think and feel about
02:07:21
things
02:07:22
so controlling your thoughts how you're
02:07:23
feeling at this point in time putting
02:07:25
yourself in a bit um sort of um position
02:07:29
emotionally and now as I said before is
02:07:32
that you know it kind of it's kind of
02:07:34
like a um you know one of those um uh
02:07:39
monitors at a at a at a hospital where
02:07:41
you can see the heartbeat going on they
02:07:43
got all their vital signs I can track my
02:07:45
emotional state at any given point and
02:07:48
it changes all day long you know you
02:07:50
might wake up you have coffee yet you
02:07:51
might be a little bit grumpy or sad have
02:07:53
your coffee how do I feel now coffee is
02:07:55
one of those things that either gives
02:07:56
you a real good boost or it can can do a
02:07:58
number of things you know depending on
02:07:59
what you're doing but I try and set
02:08:01
myself up for Success there um and then
02:08:03
if I'm not feeling too good about things
02:08:05
I I'm questioning why that is you know
02:08:07
I'm not just running with my emotions
02:08:08
anymore um we all have that ability if
02:08:11
we become self-aware and that is through
02:08:13
breathing essentially is what what's
02:08:15
allowed me to get there not only the the
02:08:17
fact that breathing brings you back down
02:08:18
from your um sympathetic to your parent
02:08:21
athetic nervous system um people can
02:08:23
look that up but all the researchers
02:08:25
here about the benefits of of breathing
02:08:27
and and refocus and um yeah I think it's
02:08:30
it's helped me hugely in engagement with
02:08:34
others um being present in the present
02:08:36
moment for meetings and that kind of
02:08:38
thing and there's always a training
02:08:39
there's always a training um uh scenario
02:08:44
in front of you you know meeting is a
02:08:45
great one staying present for an hour
02:08:47
try that completely present listening to
02:08:50
the person talk to you or talk to others
02:08:52
and staying right there in in the
02:08:54
conversation and not letting your
02:08:56
thoughts dble away anywhere else you
02:08:58
know um so breathing can do that and and
02:09:00
sort of that concrete Focus um at
02:09:02
particular points but um yeah it's
02:09:05
helped me out greatly just to uh get a
02:09:07
grip of my thoughts and what you know I
02:09:09
should be thinking about um and what I
02:09:12
let in and what I don't let in it's a
02:09:14
lot of work though and you you've done
02:09:15
it all yourself yeah essentially out of
02:09:18
out of necessity do you think I think so
02:09:20
yeah and and
02:09:21
um but you know things happen for a
02:09:24
reason um I've done some professional
02:09:27
courses uh looking at these things as
02:09:30
well um and you know again the research
02:09:33
is out there it's just all all the
02:09:35
information is out there it's just again
02:09:37
it comes back to you and whether or not
02:09:38
you're going to apply you're going to
02:09:39
apply yourself to it in in a long period
02:09:41
of time with the mental stuff I think
02:09:44
that um you know there's three things we
02:09:46
can train our mind body and our Craft um
02:09:49
we're always good at the The Craft the
02:09:51
body stuff you know their work or
02:09:53
whatever it looks like and and and
02:09:55
arguably the body but the mental stuff
02:09:57
we don't really put much into we just
02:09:59
roll with our character traits and think
02:10:02
well that's just me and yeah it is it is
02:10:05
but you can identify some of the areas
02:10:07
where you know things may not be um uh
02:10:11
or may not suit uh this particular
02:10:15
situation um in particularly for
02:10:17
military people you know a lot of the
02:10:19
traits that we um were developed into us
02:10:22
over time um do not have a place in in a
02:10:26
normal sort of situation you know where
02:10:28
it's with your talking to your family
02:10:31
and and talking to your wife or you know
02:10:33
one of those things that I had to get
02:10:34
past was you know high expectations of
02:10:36
myself and others and I had high
02:10:37
expectations of my wife and my son I
02:10:39
mean it's just it's just
02:10:41
garbage you know you know I mean like
02:10:44
these your family you let some go yeah
02:10:47
yeah yeah yeah um and is that with the
02:10:49
book um of who us breaking the habit of
02:10:51
being yourself is that where this comes
02:10:53
in yeah yeah who who who who needs to
02:10:56
read that book right now what person
02:10:59
anyone that wants to look at their uh to
02:11:02
figure out to to become more aware of
02:11:05
their character traits and see what part
02:11:09
of your uh being basically your state of
02:11:11
being needs to be changed um and um I
02:11:15
think that yeah he does a really good a
02:11:17
good job of helping you understand how
02:11:20
we think and feel
02:11:21
and then how to break those character
02:11:23
traits down because you know as research
02:11:25
suggested about 35 I think our character
02:11:27
traits are pretty set but there is room
02:11:30
for improvement if you want to put in
02:11:31
the hard work I mean Arnold S Syer
02:11:33
didn't get to be the you know whatever
02:11:35
eight time Olympia CH as I don't know
02:11:38
whatever champion and grow big muscles
02:11:40
by sitting on the couch you got to do
02:11:42
the work the Deep work and um so again
02:11:44
all the information is presented to you
02:11:46
it's just whether or not you want to you
02:11:48
want to um dial into it I've read
02:11:50
there's three books that I've that have
02:11:51
been pretty beneficial for me it's into
02:11:53
the magic shop by Dr doy doy I think
02:11:57
yeah um Jonathan hate the happiness
02:11:59
hypothesis and um breaking the being
02:12:02
yourself but buy my
02:12:05
book you can read them after you there's
02:12:07
four books now servman J yeah but those
02:12:10
but those have been pretty beneficial
02:12:12
and they all sort of um cut across the
02:12:14
same Concepts around breathing
02:12:16
visualization refocusing and um breaking
02:12:20
down your character traits being a bit
02:12:21
of human being yeah but as I was saying
02:12:23
when I was um giving you flowers at the
02:12:24
beginning of the chat like you can read
02:12:25
a book um but if you don't Implement any
02:12:28
of the strategies you learn you know if
02:12:30
nothing changes nothing changes not at
02:12:32
all and and it's and it's a lot you know
02:12:34
that's the thing if you want to get good
02:12:35
in anything you got to do reps you know
02:12:36
what I mean like yourself you know I
02:12:38
don't think you just got up one morning
02:12:39
and started running marathons you know
02:12:41
what I mean you got to you got to train
02:12:42
up for it it's it's like anything we're
02:12:44
human that's it yeah skill Fade's a real
02:12:46
thing too by the way what is skill
02:12:48
Fade's a real thing you know you can't
02:12:50
you just got to you just got to keep
02:12:52
doing it keep doing hard stuff hey this
02:12:54
has been 2 and A4 hours um haven't even
02:12:57
talked about your rugby league job where
02:12:59
you're working with RTS and Sean Johnson
02:13:02
Summer mening and the Dorth stuff which
02:13:04
you're doing now which I can tell you're
02:13:05
really passionate about um but that's
02:13:08
cool we we'll we'll wrap up now but I I
02:13:10
think the exciting thing is you had this
02:13:12
long military career which went from
02:13:13
your teens until your early 40s and um
02:13:17
then the rugby league thing for a couple
02:13:18
of years and the door thing and I I I
02:13:20
suspect you're just going to keep on
02:13:22
Reinventing reincarnating with the
02:13:24
skills that you've got yeah I think
02:13:26
that's probably the biggest takeaway
02:13:27
from um moving away from 20 years in the
02:13:30
military in the high performing
02:13:32
environment like that is um you know um
02:13:36
reidentifying who I am has become uh
02:13:40
normal now whereas it was quite
02:13:41
difficult at the start but I've kind of
02:13:43
reent re um identified myself two times
02:13:48
now not only as a consultant but also
02:13:50
you know now working in schools and um
02:13:53
yeah I
02:13:54
mean I'm night and day away from you
02:13:59
know who I was you know um you know a
02:14:01
decade ago um still got stuff to work on
02:14:04
but yeah it's it can be done if I can do
02:14:06
it you know most people can do it but
02:14:07
again you got to put in the work you
02:14:09
know and you've got to um just really
02:14:11
look at yourself and seeing what's
02:14:12
holding you back I just saw your hands
02:14:14
are you a nail biter I am is that a
02:14:16
stress thing what is that anxiety thing
02:14:19
younger yeah younger it's all of it it's
02:14:21
Autumn stress yeah it's it's weird I
02:14:23
just I do it subconsciously yeah yeah
02:14:26
yeah um I need to get some fake ones
02:14:28
maybe you know stick on AC yeah maybe
02:14:32
that'll hey maybe that'll get me to do
02:14:34
it oh my God that' be amazing next next
02:14:36
time you you catch up with Willie AATA
02:14:38
you get some stick on nails real long
02:14:40
ones um just a couple of quick points to
02:14:42
finish with what do you what do you miss
02:14:43
and not miss about the
02:14:45
e um I've definitely missed the
02:14:48
Brotherhood um and I guess I don't miss
02:14:52
the um the amount of time away basically
02:14:56
that you have it used to be really
02:14:58
awesome at the start and you you know
02:15:00
you get to see some Far flung um areas
02:15:02
of the earth and um you know getting
02:15:04
down in the dirt with um people and
02:15:06
stuff like that but uh yeah that that I
02:15:09
yeah I don't don't miss that are you
02:15:11
proud of yourself yeah yeah yeah I'm I'm
02:15:15
I again I do it all again I have uh no
02:15:18
regrets um yeah it's an amazing
02:15:21
adventure if you really want to test
02:15:23
yourself then by all means front up to
02:15:25
selection and see how you go if you're
02:15:27
that type of person physically
02:15:28
emotionally spiritually mentally you
02:15:30
will be tested um and the you know the
02:15:34
stuff that you're doing there cannot be
02:15:36
replicated anywhere else and 2011 Jamie
02:15:40
this guy in the picture what would he
02:15:41
make of the guy sitting in the blue
02:15:43
velvet CH here now uh what are you doing
02:15:47
yeah what are you doing [ __ ] you're
02:15:48
talking lot mate yeah yeah shut sitting
02:15:51
there be like you know you shouldn't be
02:15:53
talking about this stuff yeah yeah um be
02:15:57
pretty yeah I think he would be I think
02:15:58
he'd be pretty surprised uh what I'm
02:16:00
doing at the moment he'd be thinking how
02:16:02
did you get there you know cuz it's
02:16:04
literally not a day I mean at the end of
02:16:06
the day I was a very staunch um SAS
02:16:08
senior NCO um guardian of the culture
02:16:12
and uh those that know me know um but um
02:16:16
yeah I'm sure there'd be a look of shock
02:16:17
on his face sitting across here that's
02:16:20
that's exciting thing about life you
02:16:21
never know um you know with each year or
02:16:24
each chapter what's going to happen it's
02:16:25
cool it's the roll with it all right
02:16:28
serviceman Jay um yeah 2 hours 17
02:16:31
minutes today um and we're just
02:16:32
scratching the surface of a life and a
02:16:34
career well L hey thank you so much for
02:16:36
your time today mate I appreciate the
02:16:37
opportunity it's amazing it was great
02:16:39
discussion yeah awesome yeah
