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Ryan Armstrong there he is hey man
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[Music]
00:00:08
let your winner slide
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[Music]
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we open source it to the fans and
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they've just gone crazy
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[Music]
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uh Brian Armstrong is the co-founder and
00:00:26
CEO of coinbase which is the largest
00:00:29
exchange here in the United States and
00:00:31
according to Bill Gurley he's hoping for
00:00:33
more regulations so he can pull up the
00:00:36
ladder behind him so let's start there
00:00:38
because we're here for bill gurley's um
00:00:40
generally speaking your reaction
00:00:42
I thought that was such an amazing talk
00:00:44
I was like cheering backstage when I
00:00:46
heard that I think we need more of that
00:00:48
I haven't seen somebody laid out that
00:00:49
clearly in a while
00:00:51
he's totally right I mean regulatory
00:00:53
capture is a huge drain on Innovation
00:00:55
um you know and the incentives are set
00:00:57
up in kind of a bad way right if you
00:00:59
take our company for instance
00:01:01
um you know if you ask me just
00:01:02
personally I think there should be less
00:01:04
regulation around this I think it would
00:01:06
create more Innovation
00:01:08
um you have to society would have to
00:01:09
tolerate greater variance right there'd
00:01:11
be there'd be more scams there'd be more
00:01:13
highs there'd be more lows but the truth
00:01:15
of the matter is a lot of times you have
00:01:16
regulation and it ends up having the
00:01:18
opposite of the intended effect so we
00:01:21
don't live in that world where people
00:01:22
are going to say well let's just be
00:01:24
hands off and do nothing so when I go to
00:01:25
DC the Overton window of discussion is
00:01:28
basically we're going to do the
00:01:29
regulation for you or you can engage and
00:01:32
have have a say and so of course we're
00:01:34
going to take the other side and say
00:01:35
okay let's try to help craft that
00:01:37
regulation but if you ask me just
00:01:38
personally as like a citizen there
00:01:40
should be less regulation I think what
00:01:41
do you think the regulation should be as
00:01:43
we kind of get through the boom bust
00:01:45
cycle all the scams and fraud that
00:01:47
occurred and you know now it seems like
00:01:50
the enforcement has gotten particularly
00:01:52
intense
00:01:53
what would be a balance that would
00:01:55
protect us from going
00:01:57
um protect us going forward and
00:01:59
eliminate the massive amount of grift
00:02:02
the massive amount of crime and stealing
00:02:05
and fraud that happened in crypto that
00:02:07
we all witnessed in is undisputable but
00:02:10
then also would allow us to innovate and
00:02:12
not have it all go offshore because you
00:02:14
said listen if you don't want us here
00:02:15
you opened I think uh on some foreign
00:02:18
Islands some entities so you're ready to
00:02:20
walk out of America I understand if they
00:02:22
don't make great regulations so we're
00:02:24
not leaving America that's for sure I
00:02:26
mean this is our biggest Market you know
00:02:27
I'm an American we started listed
00:02:30
everything about Bitcoin and ethereum
00:02:32
what would you do then the thing is
00:02:34
that's just I don't think that's in the
00:02:35
realm of possibility because that's not
00:02:37
what the law says
00:02:39
um so we can start with what I think
00:02:41
regulation could be or should be and
00:02:42
then let's talk about what The
00:02:43
Regulators are actually doing because
00:02:45
it's a little bit different so you know
00:02:47
the the actual regulation that would
00:02:49
allow this industry to be built here in
00:02:51
a safe way but also protect the
00:02:53
Innovation it would do things that are
00:02:55
actually kind of similar to the
00:02:56
traditional Financial Services industry
00:02:57
so you would have some basic rules in
00:02:59
place around okay you need to get these
00:03:01
audits complete you know lost trading is
00:03:04
illegal let's make an actual process for
00:03:06
somebody who wants to register a crypto
00:03:08
security and it could trade on a broker
00:03:10
dealer or or these kinds of things and
00:03:12
so these are actually not rocket science
00:03:14
they're just kind of copying a lot of
00:03:15
the best practices like AML kyc those
00:03:17
kind of things from the traditional
00:03:18
Financial Services industry and
00:03:20
centralized players in crypto should
00:03:21
have to follow those now if you're doing
00:03:22
a decentralized thing I don't think
00:03:24
that's a financial service business
00:03:25
you're never taking possession of
00:03:27
customer funds like these decentralized
00:03:29
protocols or self your wallets I think
00:03:31
that should be treated more like the
00:03:32
software industry and the centralized
00:03:34
players should be more regulated now you
00:03:37
can also do things like have a Sandbox
00:03:39
for Innovation and say okay if you're a
00:03:40
startup and you can't afford 20 million
00:03:42
dollars a year in legal bills you know
00:03:44
you're under a certain amount then you
00:03:45
can operate on in this sandbox and
00:03:47
there's other things other countries
00:03:48
have done
00:03:49
what's actually happened is not quite
00:03:51
that although there are some good Bills
00:03:53
going through Congress unfortunately we
00:03:55
have a regulator the chair of the SEC
00:03:57
who's kind of weaponized the agency for
00:04:00
his own political purposesler right
00:04:02
along with Elizabeth Warren who've they
00:04:05
just don't want crypto to exist in the
00:04:07
United States isn't their argument well
00:04:10
just register like we all do when we
00:04:12
sell Securities and what's your best
00:04:15
argument for why crypto shouldn't just
00:04:19
do what we all do every day which is
00:04:21
register Securities I'm all for that
00:04:23
yeah I mean there should be a robust
00:04:25
healthy Market to trade crypto
00:04:26
Securities in the US
00:04:27
there is not currently a way to register
00:04:30
and so they've been sort of talking out
00:04:32
of both sides of their mouth and then
00:04:33
saying hey just come in and register and
00:04:35
then you'll see these exchanges come in
00:04:37
that have never traded a single coin as
00:04:39
like you know the ones that are propped
00:04:41
up as like the the ones that are
00:04:43
following the rules so they're actually
00:04:44
I think what their true intention or
00:04:46
belief is behind the scenes and I'm
00:04:47
speculating a little bit here is they
00:04:49
just don't want it to exist and so
00:04:51
they're trying to cast a shadow over the
00:04:52
whole industry to make it difficult
00:04:54
they're just sending subpoenas and Wells
00:04:56
notices exist why I believe it's because
00:05:00
um and again this is just me speculating
00:05:01
a little bit I think it's because they
00:05:03
don't want to lose power they they think
00:05:05
the government should run Financial
00:05:07
Services they have their hooks into the
00:05:10
big Banks they can pressure the big
00:05:12
Banks to close accounts on in you know
00:05:15
if you have the wrong political opinion
00:05:16
or you have you're in the wrong industry
00:05:18
you're in oil and gas or whatever the
00:05:19
flavor of the day is they want to be
00:05:21
able to pressure companies because they
00:05:24
can't get it done through Congress they
00:05:27
want to pressure it through the big
00:05:28
Banks and crypto in America people
00:05:30
should be free to have control of their
00:05:32
own money to use new technologies it's
00:05:35
fundamentally anti-American what they're
00:05:36
doing and I think next year in the
00:05:38
elections we need to make sure that all
00:05:40
voters and people who are pro-innovation
00:05:42
pro technology vote people out of office
00:05:45
who are trying to curtail our freedoms
00:05:47
around crypto hold on but they're
00:05:51
would be
00:05:52
that
00:05:55
but you're the largest player in
00:05:58
um stole a bunch of money from consumers
00:06:00
and perpetrated
00:06:02
tens of billions at a minimum of crimes
00:06:06
and so they would not say they're doing
00:06:09
it to control they would say they're
00:06:10
doing it I'm not saying this is my
00:06:11
opinion but they said they would be
00:06:13
doing it to protect customers and you've
00:06:15
had tons of fraud you had issues inside
00:06:17
your own company with people pre-trading
00:06:20
uh coins before they were listed yeah
00:06:22
and so that wasn't us that was an
00:06:24
employee who okay got convicted yep
00:06:26
former employee the space you would
00:06:29
agree is Rife with crime so if they want
00:06:33
to you know and that's their counter so
00:06:35
respond to their counter what's true
00:06:37
about what they say
00:06:38
well they're absolutely correct that
00:06:40
this industry has attracted some really
00:06:42
bad people right I will admit that if
00:06:45
you look at the beginnings of any new
00:06:46
technology you know the internet there
00:06:48
was lots of scams even in traditional
00:06:50
Financial Services we have Bernie Madoff
00:06:52
and Exxon periodically right so what you
00:06:55
should do in a free Society is if
00:06:57
somebody commits fraud absolutely that's
00:06:59
what the justice system should do is go
00:07:00
after them create a deterrent put them
00:07:02
put them in jail you know Sam bankman
00:07:04
freed should go to jail it does not mean
00:07:07
it does not mean that the industry
00:07:09
should be outlawed and the one of the
00:07:11
really dangerous things that's happening
00:07:13
is that you know the Constitution says
00:07:15
that Congress creates the laws what's
00:07:18
happened sort of is that we've created
00:07:20
these agencies and because they can just
00:07:23
send subpoenas to everybody or publish
00:07:24
these guidance letters you know this is
00:07:27
kind of the administrative state if you
00:07:28
will they are de facto creating laws you
00:07:31
know other Industries like in the FDA if
00:07:33
the FDA puts out a guidance letter and
00:07:36
you don't like it what's what are you
00:07:37
going to do it's a de facto law and so
00:07:39
there's an interesting constitutional
00:07:40
argument around this is like is the
00:07:42
administrative State overreaching and I
00:07:44
think we've seen that in this example
00:07:45
with the SEC
00:07:49
well said but yeah and but isn't one of
00:07:52
the fundamental premises of of Bitcoin
00:07:56
blockchain technology that we can
00:07:59
wrestle away control from the government
00:08:01
and so you are de facto putting yourself
00:08:03
in this kind of opposing position to the
00:08:05
government but you live in a country
00:08:06
that the government has the laws and the
00:08:08
ability to create new laws and enforce
00:08:10
those laws upon you
00:08:12
and ultimately crypto is going to be
00:08:15
challenged by the fact that it is a
00:08:16
challenge to centralize governments
00:08:18
yeah I mean that's exactly right anytime
00:08:20
you create a startup and you go up
00:08:21
against some big incumbent there's going
00:08:23
to be a shift of power and you know in
00:08:26
the U.S
00:08:27
um the government enjoys this Monopoly
00:08:29
on issuing the currency right they have
00:08:31
in the US our banks are more privatized
00:08:33
than you say China or most other
00:08:35
countries but they're quasi-nationalized
00:08:38
in in the U.S I mean we talked about the
00:08:39
right you know the revolving door and
00:08:42
all the kind of oversight and like a
00:08:43
bank cannot launch a new product without
00:08:45
government approval so you know how how
00:08:47
really private Market is it I think some
00:08:49
I think Bill Gurley showed that graph of
00:08:50
like there haven't been any new Banks
00:08:52
really created since Dodd-Frank so it's
00:08:55
a quasi-nationalized industry
00:08:58
um of course some people are going to be
00:08:59
upset about losing the power of that but
00:09:03
um in America this this is a free
00:09:04
country and people American citizens
00:09:06
should be free to use any technology
00:09:08
that they want they should be free to
00:09:09
use cryptocurrency and as long as you're
00:09:12
not hurting somebody else that should be
00:09:13
protected as a freedom here so what's
00:09:15
the what's the path Prime because it
00:09:17
seems like what you guys are had to do
00:09:19
you and others
00:09:20
basically use the courts to beat back
00:09:22
the administrative State
00:09:24
um do you want to talk about that
00:09:25
process and you know one example is this
00:09:27
Bitcoin Futures thing that just
00:09:29
I'm not even sure if it was resolved in
00:09:31
the last few weeks or not there was like
00:09:33
a pretty important ruling do you want to
00:09:34
just update people about that kind of
00:09:36
stuff yeah well the so that is one of
00:09:38
the great things about America that
00:09:39
makes me bullish on it is that we do
00:09:41
have these different branches of
00:09:42
government that are such a great check
00:09:43
and balance and you're right and the
00:09:45
court the judicial branch has been kind
00:09:48
of my favorite branch of government in
00:09:49
the last few months
00:09:50
um and they've really kind of the SEC
00:09:52
has gone zero for three in the courts
00:09:54
the courts kind of keep upholding rule
00:09:56
of law which has been really great so
00:09:57
there's been a handful of cases there
00:09:58
was the Ripple one there was the
00:10:00
terraform one which agreed on this idea
00:10:02
that the underlying crypto assets
00:10:04
themselves were not Securities that's a
00:10:05
very important fact by the way in our
00:10:06
case with the SEC and then um just
00:10:09
recently there was this Grace Grace jail
00:10:11
trust ETF and um you know the the judge
00:10:15
ruled that the SEC was arbitrary and
00:10:17
capricious and unlawful and not
00:10:19
approving their applications
00:10:20
what you mean when you say they're just
00:10:22
de facto passing laws where they don't
00:10:24
necessarily have the rights to do it
00:10:25
they're blocking free enterprise they're
00:10:27
blocking the ability for you guys to
00:10:29
just do business yeah and unless you're
00:10:31
a big company like coinbase you don't
00:10:33
have the legal the budget legal budget
00:10:35
to kind of go to court and fight these
00:10:36
things out and you know I can tell you
00:10:38
as a public company there I talk to a
00:10:40
number of other people and they were
00:10:41
like you know oh my gosh you can't sue
00:10:42
the SEC like or engage in litigation
00:10:44
with them
00:10:46
um you're a public company you have to
00:10:47
settle you have to settle and and like I
00:10:50
was sort of the settlement option on the
00:10:52
table was to essentially de-list
00:10:53
everything other than Bitcoin and so
00:10:55
that would have been the Android your
00:10:57
business the end of the industry in the
00:10:58
US it was it was an easy choice of
00:10:59
course if we think the law doesn't say
00:11:01
that we're going to go to court
00:11:06
yeah
00:11:07
um so I want to ask you about uh use
00:11:10
cases Ryan so I think you know we've had
00:11:11
Bitcoin now for over a decade I think
00:11:13
it's been volatile but I think proven
00:11:15
very robust no one's been able to double
00:11:17
spend the Bitcoin I think like for store
00:11:19
of value I think that use case is pretty
00:11:21
much proven then we had the rise of
00:11:23
ethereum and this idea of a world
00:11:26
computer and there was a lot of talk for
00:11:28
a while especially like during the like
00:11:29
very frothy sort of bubbly period that
00:11:32
there'd be all these use cases you know
00:11:34
that were would be built on the world
00:11:35
computer people might even be running
00:11:37
social networks on them stuff like that
00:11:40
um I think there's sort of been a
00:11:41
correction from that I mean I think
00:11:42
people now sort of realize there's
00:11:44
certain there's a lot of applications
00:11:46
where it just makes sense to use a
00:11:48
centralized database blockchains
00:11:50
wouldn't be efficient enough for that
00:11:51
I'm kind of wondering at what point at
00:11:53
this point
00:11:54
where do we stand in terms of use cases
00:11:57
being proven out beyond the original
00:11:59
Bitcoin store value like you know what
00:12:02
are the other big applications that have
00:12:05
either been validated or that we should
00:12:07
expect to be built on top of all this
00:12:10
this infrastructure
00:12:12
yeah so I'll run through a couple of
00:12:13
them that are there already today and
00:12:15
then there's a couple on the horizon so
00:12:16
obviously trading was this first use
00:12:18
case then we saw things like you know
00:12:21
stable coins have actually gotten quite
00:12:23
a bit of adoption there's about 150
00:12:24
billion or so locked up in stable coins
00:12:26
uh useful for payments you know
00:12:28
cross-border stuff all kinds of things
00:12:31
um you know defy obviously got to I
00:12:33
think it's probably about 50 billion
00:12:35
total value locked up in that which is
00:12:36
not as meaningful I wouldn't say it's
00:12:38
been mainstream by any stretch but it's
00:12:40
certainly material even nfts got to a
00:12:43
pretty I think it came down like 90 plus
00:12:45
but it's still it's in the tens of
00:12:47
billions okay so those are things I'd
00:12:49
say are you know they they worked and I
00:12:51
think they'll grow over time I'll talk
00:12:52
about what I think could unlock that
00:12:54
next wave of growth too but there's a
00:12:56
couple others that are on the horizon so
00:12:57
decentralized identity you know ens is
00:12:59
probably the most popular one there's
00:13:01
only been about three million or so
00:13:02
people have used ens so far but you see
00:13:04
it show up a lot explain what that is
00:13:06
well ens is the ethereum name system so
00:13:08
it's a it's a decentralized identity so
00:13:10
you can control your own
00:13:12
um information online it's not like
00:13:14
using Google or Apple or a big so my
00:13:16
Twitter X profile my Facebook profile
00:13:18
this is who I am I can prove it yeah and
00:13:20
this is kind of the vision of web3 is
00:13:22
that if everybody has their
00:13:23
decentralized identity then you can now
00:13:26
create a follower graph you could make
00:13:28
posts associated with that like text
00:13:29
video audio to make a decentralized
00:13:31
social network you know artists could
00:13:33
have a direct relationship with their
00:13:35
fans and have provenance and if you're
00:13:37
you know seeing CNN and you want to
00:13:39
publish an article you it can be
00:13:41
cryptographically proven that it came
00:13:42
from that account it's not like a fake
00:13:44
uh
00:13:46
Sax's question why has crypto as an
00:13:50
industry and the entrepreneurs there or
00:13:52
have done such a terrible job at making
00:13:54
it easy for consumers to use the product
00:13:57
and I know that's something you've
00:13:59
really spent a lot of time on making
00:14:00
this easy or easier and trustworthy but
00:14:03
we're in the second decade here and if
00:14:05
you ask somebody to you know do what you
00:14:08
just said create a decentralized
00:14:09
identity they would not even know where
00:14:12
to start so maybe we could talk about
00:14:13
why that blocker exists
00:14:15
yeah so I do think there's a few things
00:14:17
that can help unlock this next wave of
00:14:19
adoption ux is one of them I mean so
00:14:22
it's it starts with what we started with
00:14:23
at the beginning pretty much every
00:14:25
crypto startup is just getting a
00:14:26
subpoena right now and that's not fun
00:14:28
especially if you're two kids with a
00:14:29
laptop and a dream and like you know
00:14:31
your parents are worried you're going to
00:14:32
go to jail or something so the the
00:14:34
regulatory apparatus has been quite bad
00:14:35
and I think that that'll hopefully shift
00:14:37
here in the next few years as we get you
00:14:38
know Congress to act or a new SEC chair
00:14:40
or cftc or someone but put that aside
00:14:43
the other big blocker has been the
00:14:45
scalability of the blockchains so to do
00:14:47
every transaction on chain is still if
00:14:49
you do it on layer one it's like
00:14:51
anywhere from five to twenty five
00:14:52
dollars it takes anywhere from a few
00:14:54
minutes to an hour to confirm so that's
00:14:56
like that's not going to work in this to
00:14:58
really build decentralized applications
00:15:00
where every upvote or like or post could
00:15:02
you know has to happen on chain so we're
00:15:04
getting now to layer two solutions which
00:15:06
is sort of like the internet going from
00:15:07
dial up to broadband and coinbase is
00:15:10
trying to help that you know we launched
00:15:11
our own Layer Two solution called base
00:15:12
recently and it gets the cost and the
00:15:15
speed down by about an order of
00:15:16
magnitude I the the metric I've been
00:15:18
tracking internally and I kind of push
00:15:20
our team on is we need every transaction
00:15:22
to get under one cent in one second if
00:15:24
that that feels like a threshold where
00:15:26
we'd see an explosion of new use cases
00:15:29
um the last one is the ux as you put it
00:15:30
and today it's it's kind of remarkable
00:15:32
actually how many people use these
00:15:33
things like Define nfts because the
00:15:35
process to actually use it is crazy it's
00:15:37
like you you buy the crypto and coinbase
00:15:38
sometimes you'll move it to a Chrome
00:15:40
extension you have to connect your
00:15:41
wallet into this thing and you're like
00:15:42
you have to know what private keys are
00:15:44
and so if we can just make that where
00:15:46
you know it's it's sort of like a WeChat
00:15:48
app or something where you know you're
00:15:50
instantly connected in your wallet and
00:15:51
your identity when you load it up in
00:15:53
your browser or equivalent
00:15:54
self-custodial wallet and it's just one
00:15:57
click and it's done you know that's what
00:15:58
we need to get to as an industry
00:15:59
scalability ux regulatory Improvement
00:16:02
that's a at the core and this is where
00:16:04
you and I we you've been on this week in
00:16:06
startups I think three times we've had
00:16:08
deep discussions about this the core of
00:16:10
financial regulation the United States
00:16:12
is based on accredited investors
00:16:14
qualified purchasers which are six
00:16:15
percent of the country and 94 percent of
00:16:18
people in the country are not allowed to
00:16:20
participate in the wealth creation that
00:16:21
everybody on this stage has benefited
00:16:23
from many people in the audience have
00:16:24
benefited from which is the formation of
00:16:27
companies it sounds crazy that we have
00:16:29
not evolved this since the 1930s would
00:16:32
this entire problem be solved if we
00:16:35
could have an accreditation test a
00:16:37
sophistication test where if you passed
00:16:40
it like a driver's license you could get
00:16:42
in the car and drive it knowing the
00:16:44
responsibility it takes we could simply
00:16:46
give people a test and make them
00:16:48
sophisticated investors and then if you
00:16:49
wanted to buy cryptocurrency or startups
00:16:52
or real estate you would be allowed to
00:16:55
do it yeah I know you're hot on this
00:16:58
idea and I think the key part what you
00:17:00
said is it's not based on your net worth
00:17:02
it's based on the it's passing the test
00:17:04
your knowledge I think that's a good
00:17:05
idea I but by the way I think accredited
00:17:08
investor laws are sort of an example
00:17:09
what I was saying earlier about
00:17:10
regulation that had an unintended effect
00:17:12
where you know it was trying to protect
00:17:14
people but it actually made it illegal
00:17:16
to get rich unless you're already rich
00:17:17
it was like this incredible exclusionary
00:17:19
thing
00:17:20
um so anyway a version of it that was
00:17:22
not based on net worth I think could be
00:17:23
good I you know I'm not opposed to that
00:17:25
I think it's an economics professor
00:17:27
making 150 000 a year would not be able
00:17:30
to participate in startups or crypto or
00:17:32
whatever whereas somebody who inherited
00:17:34
a million dollars would it was crazy to
00:17:37
think that that law exists I agree one
00:17:40
of the things that you need for a
00:17:41
vibrant ecosystem
00:17:43
um
00:17:44
is a lot of practical thinking sometimes
00:17:46
and just having been around crypto since
00:17:50
2011 my observation I just want your
00:17:53
reaction is too many people are caught
00:17:55
up in the philosophy of being unplugged
00:17:59
from the system and you know being
00:18:00
unavailable to the man and all of this
00:18:02
and all it does is actually
00:18:04
create shitty products actually because
00:18:07
people don't think about wanting to get
00:18:08
to 500 million people people like it
00:18:10
when it's used by 5 000 people because
00:18:12
there's this weird culture of like let
00:18:13
me just build for myself and my you know
00:18:15
nine other friends who want to live off
00:18:17
the grid I really believe that crypto
00:18:20
struggles with that like there are a few
00:18:22
people like you who are like I'm just a
00:18:24
practical ambitious person who wants to
00:18:26
take it to every single person and I
00:18:28
just want your reaction do you see that
00:18:30
did you see it before is it changing
00:18:33
it's an interesting point I mean there
00:18:35
are a lot of people that are the early
00:18:37
it's just like crossing the chasm or
00:18:39
that book right you know the early
00:18:40
people who join these things they really
00:18:42
don't like the existing system they're a
00:18:44
little quirky they have higher risk
00:18:45
tolerance and you do need to get into
00:18:47
better bigger concentric circles to
00:18:49
cross the chasm right and the internet
00:18:51
was the same way I mean the early
00:18:52
internet was weird right and and people
00:18:54
would compare that to New York Times or
00:18:57
watching cable TV and they'd be like oh
00:18:58
my gosh this is so illegitimate like
00:19:00
these these silly blog posts and stuff
00:19:02
and it slowly became you know bigger
00:19:04
than the traditional thing you guys are
00:19:06
an example of that so I think crypto
00:19:09
will get there but yes it has to there
00:19:10
has to be a willingness to bring in the
00:19:12
next round of people and the next one
00:19:14
and maybe they're into art or maybe
00:19:15
they're into just earning a living and
00:19:17
paying their family overseas they're not
00:19:19
even into crypto itself for some
00:19:20
libertarian Paradise yeah and I think
00:19:22
exactly right I think this is sort of
00:19:24
what explains the massive complexity
00:19:26
only somebody who wants to minimize the
00:19:28
market would create a nine-step process
00:19:30
to be able to do something yeah right
00:19:31
because the average smart person would
00:19:33
say that should be two steps
00:19:36
done a lot of that complexity arise from
00:19:39
the sort of the the substrate which is
00:19:41
you're building on top of blockchains
00:19:43
and people want that decentralized like
00:19:46
trustless sort of layer I mean isn't
00:19:49
that
00:19:50
I mean I think I think all these
00:19:51
companies could be doing a much better
00:19:52
job with the UI I agree it's a problem
00:19:54
but does it arise from the limitations
00:19:57
of the tech stack yeah well it's
00:19:58
remember it's just like um people used
00:20:00
to only write desktop software like
00:20:02
Microsoft Office and then Google came
00:20:04
along and they're like hey what if we
00:20:04
could do everything in a browser and you
00:20:06
know Google Docs and sheets was
00:20:08
initially like way worse than a desktop
00:20:09
software it was always going to be
00:20:11
slower because it was a new you're
00:20:12
building on a web stack and all this and
00:20:14
you know the tools got better and
00:20:15
JavaScript engines got better and and I
00:20:17
think that's the you know Broadband
00:20:19
happened I think that's the error that
00:20:20
crypto is going through and it's our
00:20:21
responsibility as the companies in the
00:20:23
space to make this happen no one's going
00:20:24
to do it for us we you know there's all
00:20:26
these competing protocols there's big
00:20:28
there's big egos there's personalities
00:20:29
we've got to come together make the
00:20:31
tools simpler integrate them make them
00:20:33
intraoperable
00:20:34
um I this is where I feel like I should
00:20:36
have I could have done so much more over
00:20:38
the last five years you know and it
00:20:39
doesn't happen in Hardware earlier
00:20:41
what's that same happened in Hardware
00:20:43
early on yeah and one of the big things
00:20:46
I always try to do it I know we have
00:20:47
these court cases going on and stuff
00:20:48
like that but I always try to make sure
00:20:50
and I I told the team this too is like
00:20:51
we have great lawyers you know like five
00:20:54
percent of our resources is going to go
00:20:55
deal with that make sure that's not an
00:20:56
issue 95 of us are here to build
00:20:58
products let's never lose sight of that
00:21:00
otherwise we just become some lawsuit
00:21:01
what is the product I'm I'm going to ask
00:21:03
you a question before actually does your
00:21:05
mom use coinbase yeah
00:21:10
but do you think if you weren't the
00:21:12
founder and CEO would your mom use it so
00:21:14
the demo like not out of love but out of
00:21:16
like necessity or need or interest yeah
00:21:19
I mean we've had over 100 million people
00:21:21
sign up globally I mean a lot of them
00:21:22
are um the biggest demographic is excuse
00:21:25
younger right it's people in the 25 35
00:21:27
year old bracket initially the users
00:21:30
were often doing they wanted to just own
00:21:32
a piece of the future and it was like
00:21:33
some trading thing now about half our
00:21:35
active customers do something other than
00:21:37
trading and it runs the gamut you know
00:21:39
they're um they're spending crypto with
00:21:41
coinbase card they're earning staking
00:21:43
rewards they're starting to engage in
00:21:45
some of these these dapps and and doing
00:21:47
payments with standpoints but it's it's
00:21:49
a wide range where I'm going with this
00:21:50
is do you try to allocate resources
00:21:52
inside your company to answer that use
00:21:54
case which is all right folks we have
00:21:56
this core fervent obvious demo and we
00:21:58
can always grow with that demo and wait
00:22:00
for that demo to be you know 50 years
00:22:02
old but that's going to take 30 years
00:22:04
instead we have to get that 50 year old
00:22:06
today what is it that he or she actually
00:22:09
wants or needs that they'll actually
00:22:10
adopt and then all of a sudden 100
00:22:12
million users can become 500 can be
00:22:14
become 2 billion absolutely I do think
00:22:16
that is our responsibility and that's
00:22:17
what I'm pushing people internally on
00:22:19
and we need to drive the utility of
00:22:21
crypto because if it's just the
00:22:23
speculative thing for what you know I
00:22:25
didn't get into this because of trading
00:22:26
I'm not really like a Trader I got into
00:22:28
it because I wanted there to be a more
00:22:30
open and fair and free financial system
00:22:32
for the world that reduced friction
00:22:33
allowed new businesses Capital formation
00:22:36
all these things to happen you know take
00:22:38
out the middlemen who are just charging
00:22:39
all these fees so that's that's what we
00:22:40
have are you tempted to then go outside
00:22:43
the U.S like because then when you say
00:22:44
that
00:22:45
but I think most people would say ah go
00:22:47
to India and sit on top of UPI go to
00:22:49
Africa so how do you maintain that Focus
00:22:51
yeah so we are definitely focused on
00:22:53
International expansion I just I just
00:22:54
wanted to make the point clear we're not
00:22:55
giving up the home base
00:22:57
um but yeah there's there's a lot we
00:22:59
just launched in Canada
00:23:01
um last month
00:23:02
um you know we just launched an
00:23:03
International Exchange earlier this year
00:23:05
uh which I think will help us get to a
00:23:07
bunch of a wide range of markets our
00:23:08
self-custodial wallet could do better in
00:23:10
Emerging Markets
00:23:12
um India is its own uh challenge I've we
00:23:14
launched and it got shut down three days
00:23:16
later and we're gonna try to relaunch it
00:23:18
again so we we need to get it together
00:23:20
in Emerging Markets too Ryan while we
00:23:22
have a few minutes
00:23:23
um can you share with us some of your
00:23:25
work outside of coinbase you've been
00:23:26
making investments in projects like
00:23:29
research Hub you've started new limit
00:23:31
maybe share with us if there's a Common
00:23:33
Thread to some of the work you're doing
00:23:34
outside of coinbase does it connect back
00:23:36
or is it entirely distinct yeah well I
00:23:38
mean the thing I get excited about is
00:23:40
how do we accelerate progress in the
00:23:41
world and I think Technology Innovation
00:23:44
some of the regulatory challenges all
00:23:46
this all the stuff you guys talk about
00:23:47
it's part of the reason why I love the
00:23:48
Pod is like this is a unique voice in
00:23:50
the world that is pro Builder Pro crypto
00:23:52
it's like we can we can just listen to
00:23:55
the Pod by the way oh I mean you've been
00:23:56
on you're really the seventh bestie in
00:23:59
terms of appearance frequency yeah
00:24:01
you've been on twice yeah but anyway I
00:24:03
think that that voice is so missing in
00:24:05
our society and so I just love that you
00:24:07
guys have taken the mantle on that but
00:24:09
um yeah so anyway my investments have
00:24:11
followed along with that research Hub is
00:24:13
is trying to make scientific research
00:24:15
more like open source software and make
00:24:17
that more efficient
00:24:18
um you know new limit is doing research
00:24:20
into longevity with epigenetic
00:24:22
programming so I'm trying to use my own
00:24:23
Capital to further this and just
00:24:26
accelerate progress in the world get
00:24:27
people to build more stuff and before we
00:24:29
wrap I want to I want to mention one
00:24:30
thing you know everybody clapped when I
00:24:31
mentioned um the voting situation next
00:24:34
year with crypto and how important that
00:24:36
is and uh we did we created this website
00:24:38
stand with crypto.org everybody should
00:24:40
go check out we're trying to get people
00:24:41
to raise their hand and say that they
00:24:43
want to stand up in our democracy and uh
00:24:46
make sure make sure that the right rules
00:24:47
get put in place for crypto so if people
00:24:49
can check out each candidate is the most
00:24:51
Pro crypto at this point I mean I know
00:24:52
RFK seems to be right
00:24:54
yeah I mean it's been interesting um and
00:24:57
you know by the way coinbase is
00:24:58
apolitical but I if anything in service
00:25:00
of our mission around crypto is fair
00:25:02
game but a lot of the the channel
00:25:04
Challenger presidential candidates have
00:25:06
all been pretty Pro crypto I mean the
00:25:08
vague
00:25:09
um I think I think Tim Scott is good on
00:25:11
this I think DeSantis is good on this I
00:25:12
think RFK so I'm hoping this becomes a
00:25:15
bigger issue in the presidential race
00:25:16
and you know the Biden Administration
00:25:18
with with Warren and Gensler has not
00:25:20
been good for Americans on this
00:25:22
Dimension and it's pushed a lot of tech
00:25:24
jobs over so much of a a crater has Sam
00:25:28
bankman fraud put on the industry
00:25:32
it's definitely not good I mean this it
00:25:34
reminds me a little bit of Mount gox
00:25:35
when that happened back in the day and
00:25:37
um luckily people turn the page on this
00:25:40
thing and they move on after about a
00:25:41
year and so I think we're coming up on
00:25:43
that did you meet with him and I know he
00:25:45
wanted to do business with you at what
00:25:47
point did you realize this guy was a
00:25:49
complete sociopathic fraud you know
00:25:52
I I wish I could have told you that I
00:25:55
knew in advance um I had met him and
00:25:57
spent time with them here in their
00:25:58
period I didn't know right
00:26:00
sorry didn't get a sense when you met
00:26:02
him no I got the sense that he was very
00:26:04
smart and that he was perhaps a bit
00:26:06
Reckless um and young and I I wondered I
00:26:08
wondered at times like where is he
00:26:10
getting all this liquidity to go write
00:26:11
these huge checks and everything I knew
00:26:13
what our budget was and I was like I
00:26:14
didn't I don't know where he was getting
00:26:15
the money but customer accounts
00:26:16
apparently but um everyone said the same
00:26:19
thing about Bernie Madoff by the way no
00:26:21
one knew when they met him no like no
00:26:23
one meets the guy and says and what
00:26:25
about CZ there's like there every few
00:26:27
months there's something on Twitter that
00:26:28
blows up about how binance is just
00:26:30
there's something amiss yeah you know I
00:26:33
don't want to comment on that I I've met
00:26:35
CeCe a number of times too and I think
00:26:37
he's done a lot of good things for
00:26:38
crypto but I don't have any insight
00:26:40
inside information into what's going on
00:26:41
inside their house so we'll have to see
00:26:44
Brian I just want to say you know it's
00:26:46
very brave uh I think the work you're
00:26:48
doing and uh it both in terms of when we
00:26:50
talked about on the pod people can refer
00:26:52
to the episode about you know the cancel
00:26:54
culture and uh hysteria uh you know in
00:26:57
people's slacking rooms and I you
00:26:59
getting focused and being a driven
00:27:02
CEO that really wants to do good for
00:27:04
people in the world who you and Toby the
00:27:07
two most seminal business CEO essays of
00:27:09
the last two years yeah I think you
00:27:11
turned the tide from and made people
00:27:13
really focused on what matters which is
00:27:15
building products that help humanity and
00:27:17
for that we thank you thank you
00:27:19
foreign
00:27:26
[Music]
00:27:29
[Applause]
00:27:30
[Music]
00:27:46
oh my God
