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all right
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this segment is on ukraine and we've uh
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we're calling the ukraine debate because
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we have two great writers and thinkers
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up here who are on slightly different
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sides of this issue of the us
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involvement in ukraine
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antonio garcia martinez writes is the
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author of the best-selling book chaos
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monkey is about silicon valley he writes
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a sub-stack called pull request
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and also has a great call-in show
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and glenn greenwald is uh glenn
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greenwald is back with us uh from
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yesterday
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uh also a phenomenal writer has a uh
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amazing sub stack all of you guys should
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check out as well and a great call-in
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show um
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so in in setting up this topic let me
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just say i think you know that
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um
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you know in thinking about the us
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involvement in ukraine um you know
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there's not a lot of debate about this
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topic and in that sense it's pretty
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similar to other wars that the us has
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gotten into
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many of you probably are not old enough
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to remember when the u.s got into iraq
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or afghanistan
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and i'm not old enough to remember the
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us getting into vietnam but the thing to
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understand about all those wars is that
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they were incredibly popular
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at the time that we entered them and by
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the time that they ended they were not
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and now i'm not saying i'm not
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prejudging ukraine and saying it's one
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of those i think there's important
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differences that we should get into but
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i think we should at least have this
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debate and we need more discussion
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around this and so for that i'm grateful
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that antonio and glenn decide to
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participate
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[Music]
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so what i'm going to do is kick it to
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each of them for kind of five minute
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opening statements and then we'll just
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get into sort of more of a back and
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forth and we'll start with antonio
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cool thanks thanks david uh thanks for
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skewing the moderation from like
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literally the first second comparing it
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to a rock because i come up here to say
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it's not about a rock at all um
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but um
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yeah so let's just start off with i
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think probably most people here know
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that i actually spent some time in
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ukraine um unlike a lot of the
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independent voices um
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who decided to opine from afar about
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ukraine i i felt that the american media
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discourse about ukraine was completely
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skewed and it just smelled kind of
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bullshitted to me and so i thought i had
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to go and actually see it and so i spent
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some time on the polish border with
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ukraine uh this was kind of in the
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earliest part of the war kind of early
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march and the western part of ukraine
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which by the way is not particularly
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dangerous or anything is probably no
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more dangerous than walking across san
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francisco these days to be honest um but
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it was interesting to actually go and
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see and i took away two things i wrote
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two subset post about it that i want to
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share with you
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two parts of the ukraine story one the
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refugee situation is incredible it is
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something that you have to see to
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believe and even then you can't quite
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understand the scope of it 10 million
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ukrainians fully a quarter of the
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country is currently displaced something
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like six million ukrainians have left in
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the span of two months when you stand at
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the border at um
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medica which is one of the the border
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crossings with poland what you see is
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you're you're at it and you realize
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you're at the fringes of sort of normal
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you know western european life and
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you've entered on the other side of that
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is hell that people are escaping and
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what do you see you see
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again the men can't leave because
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they're prohibited from leaving because
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they're because they have to fight and
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so you see is old people or women with
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children imagine a woman in her 30s with
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two kids a little rolly bag and like a
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cat in a bag like that's the typical
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thing and just a line of them going over
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the border again and again and again
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right and the polls have been amazing
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and how they receive the ukrainians
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literally millions of ukrainians but all
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the same it's an enormous strain
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everywhere you go in eastern poland or
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western ukraine that's a big open area
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is basically a refugee camp whether it
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be a train station repurposed warehouses
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all of it the human situation is just
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kind of mind-boggling the other thing
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i'd like to share i crossed the border
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it was weird crossing the border there's
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this line of people looking to leave and
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there's like you with my little starlink
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and my little bag and my little body
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armor like walking across the other way
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because you can't take cars across
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everyone walks across and everyone's
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looking at me like i'm crazy
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because why are you walking in the other
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direction bro and so anyway i walked in
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the other direction had a driver pick me
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up experienced a little bit of western
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ukraine for for a few days and i
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experience what i think probably nobody
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here has experienced directly which is
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total war right a society that's
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completely and totally mobilized to
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repel a foreign invader right i was in a
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city called la viv which is one of the
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western cities that sort of free ukraine
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and everything there is either men and
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weapons and trucks going east or women
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and children and refugees going west
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that's all you would see that's all that
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would happen there and all of society
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from the interpreter i had because
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unfortunately i speak no ukrainian to
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the driver who would drive me around to
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the hacker interviewer who was like
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ddosing russian websites all of them
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would punctuate their statements with we
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will win right and that's when i
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realized that the big mistake that
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everyone had made i think particularly
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in the u.s discourse is underrating
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ukrainian resolve and their zeal for
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their own nationalist project right
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after
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after spending a day there and again
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remember this is the relatively early
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days of the war keeve is still encircled
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it wasn't clear if they were if the
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belarusians would start a western front
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it was all still up in the air but i was
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starting to think you know i i don't see
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how the russians win this like this just
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seems impossible ukraine is the size of
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texas it has a population of 40 million
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people roughly the size i imagine the
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russians showing up with 200 000
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soldiers and trying to control
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california it's going to be very
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difficult to do particularly when
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literally everybody is staring at you
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and saying we will win which is what
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what happened and that's when i realized
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that this whole story was very different
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than it's being projected in the united
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states and that's i felt um i felt
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vindicated and going because i think
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there aren't that many american
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journalists there and i think a lot of
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the discourse in the u.s tends to skew
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towards iraq or towards projection of
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american political domestic neuroses and
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not the facts on the ground in
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ukraine in which you have devastated
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cities you have women and children
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refugees you have literally a total war
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situation that the western world hasn't
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seen since world war ii that's the
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reality of ukraine and what i hope to
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debate here
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all right thank you glenn
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great so i certainly have respect for
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anyone's decision to go actually see a
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place that you want to talk about i
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think that there is though a question of
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how much you can actually learn about a
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country of 44 million people with an
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incredibly complex history with extreme
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diversity of thought
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in terms of the population by going for
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whatever it is a week or 10 days to a
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kind of sliver of that country that has
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extremely different views than another
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region for example if in 2003 you wanted
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to go before the war in iraq and figure
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out what iraqis thought if you went to
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the kurdish regions of iraq you would
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hear nothing but i want the united
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states to come and liberate us from
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salaam hussein if you went to the sunni
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triangle you would hear if you come if
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the united states comes here we're going
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to make this a graveyard
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of of americans and and similarly if you
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go to western ukraine of course you're
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going to hear
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we want american help we want to fight
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the russians to the end if you go to the
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eastern up regions of ukraine which are
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russian speaking who identify with
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moscow you're going to hear the exact
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opposite so i think you know it it's
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commendable to go to a country like
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ukraine i think we have to be humble
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about our ability to
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understand
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the thoughts of the population the
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reality on the ground when you go to
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certain segments that you select um and
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that are almost likely to kind of feed
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back to you what it is that uh you're
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already expecting to hear the other
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thing i think is very important to note
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is that
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you know first of all
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i'm a little surprised by the idea that
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i guess it was implicit that antonio
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felt that the media narrative has been
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off or one-sided in the sense that it
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hasn't been favorable enough to the idea
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that ukraine is the victim that needs
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help and russia is the
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clear aggressor i can't remember
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ever reading an article on the
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mainstream press since the invasion that
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said anything other than that which is
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why you know 80 percent of americans the
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entire bipartisan class in washington of
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both parties are essentially unified in
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support of the narrative that antonio
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believes in my opinion with great
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sincerity i think there's been if
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anything a kind of
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lack of dissent available
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in the united states on the other side
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and this is one thing i want to
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emphasize is
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there has been this claim this sort of
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implicit claim sometimes explicit claim
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that the entire war is united behind the
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united states behind ukraine against
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russia
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the reality is overwhelmingly
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the
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most of the world is in fact not united
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behind the united states and then in a
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position on ukraine most of the global
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south 15 of the most of the 20
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most populous countries on the planet
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either abstained or voted no when it
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came time to decide whether to expel
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russia from the human rights council
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and some of those countries are
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tyrannies many of them such as india the
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world's largest democracy brazil the
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second largest democracy after the
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united states um
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very much deviates from the re the the
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consensus in the united states and and
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sometimes i think if we're americans and
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we're living in a country in which we're
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bombarded with one message it's
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incumbent upon us to ask why it is that
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so much of the rest of the world does
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not believe that the united states is
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participating in the war in ukraine with
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benevolent intentions or with the desire
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to protect democracy or protect against
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aggression when in fact the the rest of
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the world looks at the history of the
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united states not just distant but very
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recent and sees a country not devoted to
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protecting democracy but to propping up
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tyranny to
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fighting wars not to protect innocents
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but to sacrifice innocence in its own
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interests and so i think that's one
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really important thing is to make sure
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that we're looking at this war not as a
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country that's essentially a belligerent
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in it but as a country that is just a
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small part of the rest of the world that
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has a lot of opinions the other thing i
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would point out is
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war in general
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is
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the worst thing that humanity can
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unleash upon itself there is no war that
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doesn't involve extreme amounts of
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atrocities extreme amounts of war crimes
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all kinds of hideous things and if you
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look at any war any war
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not just the ones that united states the
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united states adversaries have started
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but once the united states has started
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ones that the united states is allies
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have started that we support
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you're going to find enormous amounts of
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atrocities and any decent person
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with any kind of a minimum moral compass
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who looks at any war like that is going
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to walk away horrified and disgusted and
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wanting to do something about it
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the only difference between what's
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happening in the war in ukraine and so
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many other wars
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is that the u.s media is constantly
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showing us images
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and stories about ukrainian victims as
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it should
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but think about the wars that the united
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states has itself started or is propping
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up like for example the war in yemen
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that has been going on for many years
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that is still going on because the
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united states is supplying saudi arabia
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not exactly a democracy with enormous
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amounts of weapons and and money and
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intelligence to fight that war
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and think about how much you've heard or
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seen
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about the victims of yemen how many
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yemenis have you heard from talking
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about their relatives who have been lost
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in in in battle or how many uh people
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who we bombed in wedding parties and the
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like have been lost and well and so i
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think what this can happen is it can
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create an imbalance in our perception
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the imbalance isn't that the war in
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ukraine really isn't horrible it is but
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that there's really nothing
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extraordinary about what's taking place
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in that war all wars including the ones
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we start the ones that were waging the
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ones that were supporting have the same
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kinds of atrocities and the question
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ultimately becomes does the united
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states really have benevolent motives in
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trying to
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defend ukraine instead of sacrifice it
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and secondly does the united states have
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the ability to foster a positive outcome
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on the other side of the world involving
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extremely complex cultures and histories
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and two countries of very intertwined
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geostrategic interests that even if we
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did have the right motives would we
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really have the ability by flooding this
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country with weapons and all the other
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things we typically do in wars to foster
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a positive outcome and i think that's
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why the rest of the world has a lot of
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doubts
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okay thank you lin so glenn went a
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little bit longer so antonio i want to
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give you a couple of minutes to respond
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to that and then i want to ask you both
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a question okay i think i've welcomed
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the wrong thing i didn't realize we're
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debating yemen instead of ukraine glenn
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um or indian foreign policy instead of
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our own um one thing i'd say is one
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thing you said is just completely wrong
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it's not the case that eastern ukraine
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is pro-russian if so how do you explain
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mariopol a city completely destroyed
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that fought to the last man with
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civilians literally hauling up in a
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steel plane how do you explain all the
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successes in the eastern part of the war
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you never actually mentioned the facts
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of the war you're is what abouting other
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countries reaction to the war the fact
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that the eastern front in russia the war
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is going very poorly for russia how do
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you explain that fact that if eastern
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ukraine is actually pro-russian that the
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russians are doing so poorly there the
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other thing i would say i don't think
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it's the fact if you look at most polls
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and it's funny this poll came out and
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instantly your friend tucker carlson as
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well as jd vans have to change their
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line on ukraine because they realize
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that it's hard to be a populist if your
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views aren't very popular right ap did a
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poll and not just democrats support
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biden being tougher on russian
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republicans do as well right and why is
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that because you have a small country
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that's getting crushed by a country
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that's been the historical sworn enemy
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of the united states as long as anyone
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can remember i live out in the middle of
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nowhere in a red state trump country in
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the desert outside of reno and people
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are flying ukrainian flags along with
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the u.s flags i don't think that's
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because they read the new york times
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right
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um
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the other
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so antonio let me ask a question so we
00:13:46
recently had
00:13:47
uh well previously binding can i just
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address one last thing there because
00:13:50
several points there um you know the
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other thing i would say is that you know
00:13:54
this in that country don't support it
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one thing i found one aspect of the
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story that i found was very interesting
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was that all of europe has shown up on
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ukraine's door to help out the
00:14:03
ukrainians right usually i'm
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i'm both eu us citizen usually i read
00:14:07
both media it's like the u.s that is
00:14:09
like the hard line real politique and
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then the eu that's in like geopolitical
00:14:13
la la land i think in the case of this
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story it's been reversed
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and i think the us is taking ukraine and
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projecting it in its own domestic
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political narratives like lenas and i
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think the europeans actually see their
00:14:23
own collective history in the ukrainian
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story because whether it be the spanish
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civil war whether it be the germans they
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all remember what total war actually
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means what it is to stumble through
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destroyed streets and be a refugee and a
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displaced person americans don't have an
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experience of that they can't really
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resonate with that fortunately for us to
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be clear but i think europeans do so if
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you go to that border area you will see
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all of europe as far away as spain
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denmark whatever showing up to actually
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help the ukraines the last thing i would
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say is i think one thing that unites i
00:14:49
think the old left that you probably put
00:14:51
yourself into in with glenn like a
00:14:52
bernie leftist and the new right is that
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both consider two key things one the us
00:14:58
can never act abroad in a legitimate
00:15:00
good way everything the u.s does abroad
00:15:02
is always a fiasco and then two
00:15:03
everything that happens abroad is our
00:15:05
fault like literally the entire world's
00:15:07
events are downstream of the state
00:15:08
department phone call and i just don't i
00:15:11
just don't think that's true being in
00:15:12
ukraine it doesn't seem to me as if the
00:15:14
us is pulling all the strings on the
00:15:16
contrary it seems like a very chaotic
00:15:17
situation where the ukrainians are
00:15:19
trying to improvise as much as they can
00:15:20
and so again on the one hand i reject
00:15:21
the fact that the u.s can't act abroad
00:15:23
well i think it can if you look at
00:15:24
things east asia japan korea western
00:15:27
europe itself the u.s has created the
00:15:28
conditions for democracy in the past
00:15:29
okay but antonio is there a limit to
00:15:31
wise us involvement in ukraine so
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you know we have biden basically said
00:15:37
that putin cannot remain in power and
00:15:38
then immediately his own press secretary
00:15:40
walked that back as a gaff he then had
00:15:42
secretary of defense austin say that our
00:15:45
objective in ukraine is not just to
00:15:48
expel the russians but to weaken russia
00:15:51
as a great power so it can never
00:15:52
threaten anyone again you then had seth
00:15:54
moulton the the uh a democrat of the
00:15:56
house armed services committee saying
00:15:58
that we were in a proxy war with russia
00:16:00
and then cindy hoyer the house majority
00:16:02
leader said we are at war with russia do
00:16:05
you think we are at war with russia and
00:16:06
is that wise no we're in a proxy war
00:16:08
we're in a proxy worth russia what is
00:16:10
the vital national interest of the
00:16:11
united states that compels us to be in a
00:16:13
war admittedly through a proxy with
00:16:16
russia that has six thousand nuclear
00:16:17
weapons even if i were to grant that we
00:16:20
should be trying to out of humanitarian
00:16:23
motives expel the russians
00:16:26
from ukraine do you believe that we
00:16:28
should be trying to destabilize and
00:16:29
topple putin
00:16:31
let me counter that with the questions i
00:16:32
feel like i'm debating two people but
00:16:33
like i jumped in my tweet the odds are
00:16:36
even worse for the ukrainians so i'll
00:16:37
take it but um
00:16:40
i mean i ask you this question in miami
00:16:41
not too long ago david um you're the one
00:16:43
who said oh we're threatening world war
00:16:45
three we're engaging in nuclear
00:16:46
brinksmanship by the way things that we
00:16:48
did all throughout the cold war right i
00:16:50
was raised as an 80s kid here in miami
00:16:52
we used to do this thing all the time at
00:16:53
what point would you stop at what point
00:16:54
do you think it's actually worth rolling
00:16:55
the dice at what point between levive
00:16:58
and warsaw and your front door would you
00:17:00
stop and say actually world war iii
00:17:01
nuclear war is worth risking because
00:17:02
that's an answer i don't get out of the
00:17:04
appeasers at what point do you actually
00:17:05
put your foot down
00:17:06
well i mean look what i've said is that
00:17:08
i'm willing to arm ukraine under cold
00:17:11
war rules i.e the way that we armed the
00:17:14
mujahideen in afghanistan so we provided
00:17:17
them with stingers but it wasn't a u.s
00:17:18
flag on the box and we didn't draw you
00:17:20
know it wasn't us flags on the trucks we
00:17:23
there were a certain set of rules by
00:17:25
which we engaged in to avoid the risk of
00:17:27
world war three with the russians do you
00:17:29
feel that's not the case now i think
00:17:31
it's i know because we have now defined
00:17:33
our objectives in a much more expansive
00:17:35
way and i'll let glenn speak for himself
00:17:36
because i think he would not go as far
00:17:38
as me i'm sort of
00:17:39
i'm willing to do a little bit more but
00:17:41
um but no i mean look you have the
00:17:44
president united states saying
00:17:46
that he wants to basically topple putin
00:17:49
you've got austin saying that our
00:17:50
objectives here go beyond ukraine it's
00:17:53
basically to kick russia out of the
00:17:54
league of great powers and moreover
00:17:57
you've got the state department
00:17:58
declaring that we're in a global
00:17:59
struggle between autocracy and democracy
00:18:02
so we've defined the struggle in
00:18:04
manichaean terms and if somehow ukraine
00:18:06
were to lose there's like there's a
00:18:08
domino theory where dictators are going
00:18:09
to take over the whole globe and so i
00:18:11
think we've invested ukraine i would
00:18:14
give them
00:18:15
some help but i would not allow the
00:18:18
we no american president has ever
00:18:20
claimed that the united states has a
00:18:22
vital national interest in ukraine name
00:18:25
of the president has done it before can
00:18:26
i
00:18:28
so first of all
00:18:29
at the start of every war that we fought
00:18:32
over the last 60 years the same climate
00:18:34
if we were in the united states would
00:18:35
prevail as the one that's in this room
00:18:37
every time some comment was made that
00:18:38
the united states is on the right side
00:18:40
we're actually doing the right thing
00:18:41
we're fighting on behalf of everybody in
00:18:43
the auditorium
00:18:44
a pod it's really good it's a good
00:18:46
feeling to feel like your country your
00:18:48
government is doing something deeply
00:18:50
moral so again i just want to show and
00:18:53
maybe you know this doesn't matter
00:18:56
because you think that most other
00:18:58
countries are
00:18:59
primitive or arrogant or immersed in
00:19:02
propaganda and we're we're not but here
00:19:05
are the top 20 countries by population
00:19:08
and the ones in yellow are the ones who
00:19:10
refuse to support the u.n resolution
00:19:12
expelling russia
00:19:14
from
00:19:15
the un human rights council and you can
00:19:17
see that it's nine out of the ten
00:19:19
most populous countries that are on the
00:19:21
opposite side of all the cheering that's
00:19:22
taking place in this auditorium this is
00:19:25
exactly what has repeated itself every
00:19:27
time we've gone to war in vietnam in
00:19:29
iraq in afghanistan in libya in syria
00:19:33
all americans across the board 80
00:19:36
percent 85 are on board with the war in
00:19:38
the beginning because it feels so good
00:19:40
to believe your country is going to
00:19:42
where to do something positive and then
00:19:44
six months later or a year later or five
00:19:47
years later every single one of those
00:19:49
wars overwhelming majority say it was a
00:19:52
huge mistake that at least to me would
00:19:54
cause some humility to ask why does that
00:19:57
pattern keep repeating itself
00:19:59
why am i as american an american always
00:20:02
so susceptible to cheering my
00:20:04
government's involvement in a war when
00:20:06
the rest of the world is telling you
00:20:09
that actually you're being propagandized
00:20:11
that the motive the united states
00:20:12
government is claiming to have which is
00:20:14
defending democracy is not actually
00:20:16
their motive as illustrated by i don't
00:20:19
know why the rule is we're not allowed
00:20:21
to evaluate other things the united
00:20:23
states is doing to determine whether
00:20:25
those motives are real like what we do
00:20:27
in saudi arabia or what we do in yemen
00:20:29
it seems like if someone comes to you
00:20:31
and claims that they're acting with a
00:20:33
certain motive to determine whether
00:20:34
that's really the motive you'd want to
00:20:36
look at the history of that person and
00:20:38
whether their behavior is consistent
00:20:40
with that motive that's what the rest of
00:20:42
the world is doing and the reason why
00:20:44
they find these propagandist claims of
00:20:47
the united states so preposterous
00:20:49
because so many of them have been
00:20:51
victimized by the united states
00:20:53
overthrowing their democratically
00:20:55
elected governments not in the distant
00:20:57
past but in the recent ones here's the
00:21:00
next uh 10 most populous countries 6 out
00:21:02
of 10
00:21:03
also deviates from the us position and
00:21:06
then as far as what david was saying
00:21:07
this was
00:21:09
barack obama so it's not what antonio
00:21:12
was saying people on the far left my
00:21:14
friend tucker carlson evil far right
00:21:16
people this is barack obama in 2016 on
00:21:20
his way out the door
00:21:21
he was confronted in a very lengthy
00:21:23
interview by jeffrey goldberg the
00:21:25
neoconservative editor-in-chief of the
00:21:26
atlantic who probably did more than
00:21:28
anybody else to convince americans to
00:21:31
support the war in iraq in 2002-3
00:21:34
by claiming that al-qaeda was in an
00:21:36
alliance with sodom hussein and he was
00:21:38
demanding to know why obama spent his
00:21:41
presidency refusing to arm the
00:21:43
ukrainians and refusing to confront
00:21:45
moscow and here's what jeffrey goldberg
00:21:48
in 2016
00:21:50
quoted obama as saying this is
00:21:51
goldberg's uh quote for obama quote
00:21:54
obama's theory here is simple
00:21:56
ukraine is a core russian interest but
00:22:00
not an american one so russia will
00:22:02
always be able to maintain escalatory
00:22:05
dominance there quote the fact is that
00:22:07
ukraine which is a non-nato country is
00:22:09
going to be vulnerable to military
00:22:10
domination by russia no matter what we
00:22:12
do it's realistic but this is an example
00:22:15
of where we have to be very clear about
00:22:17
what our core interests are and what we
00:22:19
are willing to go to war for and then
00:22:22
here is the
00:22:24
current cia director william burns who's
00:22:27
also not on the far left or part of the
00:22:31
far right who in 2008 in a memo to
00:22:34
condoleezza rice when the bush
00:22:35
administration wanted to expand nato up
00:22:37
to russian borders warned this is what
00:22:39
he wrote quote ukrainian entry into nato
00:22:42
is the brightest of all red lines for
00:22:44
the russian elite not just putin in more
00:22:47
than two and a half years of
00:22:48
conversations with key russian players
00:22:50
from knuckle draggers in the dark
00:22:52
recesses of the kremlin to putin's
00:22:54
sharpest liberal critics i have yet to
00:22:57
find anyone who views ukraine and nato
00:22:59
as anything other than a direct
00:23:01
challenge to russian interests this has
00:23:03
been conventional wisdom in washington
00:23:05
up until february 24th when it suddenly
00:23:08
became taboo to talk about russia
00:23:11
views ukraine as the most vital interest
00:23:13
to it because it was twice used by
00:23:16
germany to invade russia in the 20th
00:23:17
century and virtually destroy it and
00:23:19
that ukraine never has been and never
00:23:22
will be of vital interest to the united
00:23:26
states okay let me let's go to antonio
00:23:28
okay give him a chance okay glenn i
00:23:29
think that arguments on it better than
00:23:30
the original russian to be honest i mean
00:23:32
i don't know why you're sitting here
00:23:33
citing six-year-old atlantic pieces
00:23:34
about obama are you going to address the
00:23:36
reality what we're talking about in that
00:23:37
list of nations by the way you included
00:23:39
such human rights luminaries as iran and
00:23:41
china as having voted against it let me
00:23:42
ask you a direct question should russia
00:23:44
be sitting on the u.n human rights
00:23:46
council a country that routinely
00:23:47
incarcerates journalists and has a
00:23:49
heinous human rights record i mean the
00:23:50
quote
00:23:51
if you look at who else is on the human
00:23:53
rights council like the united states
00:23:55
like you're always what about it just
00:23:56
answer the question it's not what about
00:23:58
ism to say you have to look at what the
00:24:01
rest of the world is doing in order to
00:24:03
understand the moral framework why is it
00:24:05
that the united states that still has
00:24:07
people in guantanamo for 20 years with
00:24:09
no trial that destroyed the country of
00:24:11
iraq a country of 25 million people that
00:24:14
is the created the worst humanitarian
00:24:16
crisis in yemen that is imprisoning
00:24:18
journalists like julian assange with no
00:24:20
charges for over a decade now has any
00:24:22
moral credibility to say we are morally
00:24:25
superior i know it feels good to say
00:24:27
that but the reality is the united
00:24:30
states if you look at what it's actually
00:24:31
doing which is going around the world
00:24:33
and has always done this supporting
00:24:35
tyranny not supporting democracy
00:24:37
propping up despots not fighting them
00:24:40
if you want to believe that there's a
00:24:42
way to go into ukraine and defend the
00:24:45
ukrainians and all of that i believe
00:24:47
that that's what you want to do but it
00:24:49
would be incredibly naive to refuse to
00:24:51
ask ourselves whether that's really the
00:24:53
goal of the united states given
00:24:55
everything we know about the government
00:24:57
and if the goal of the united states is
00:24:59
not the benevolent one that you hope
00:25:00
they have and that you have but it
00:25:02
instead is a different one
00:25:04
namely not to defend ukraine and
00:25:06
ukrainians but to sacrifice ukraine in
00:25:09
pursuit of this broader geopolitical
00:25:11
goal that david mentioned that they're
00:25:13
now admitting which is to weaken russia
00:25:15
and bring about regime change then
00:25:17
you're cheering for a war that is
00:25:19
completely different than the war that
00:25:20
is actually being fought no i disagree
00:25:22
and i think i think you've spent too
00:25:23
long in plato's cave of twitter and you
00:25:25
don't you don't stare at reality anymore
00:25:27
to be quiet no no what i showed you
00:25:28
excuse me twitter not what i just showed
00:25:30
you came from twitter yeah it came from
00:25:31
the six-year-old atlantic piece it's
00:25:32
even less relevant just this week the
00:25:35
finnish and swedish parliaments voted to
00:25:37
join nato why is that your your argument
00:25:40
is completely backwards russia's not
00:25:42
aggressive
00:25:43
hold on hold on let me finish the
00:25:44
thought right right no hold on russia
00:25:46
let me respond to the point that you sat
00:25:48
there for two minutes staring at russia
00:25:49
is not surrounded by nato
00:25:51
russia isn't aggressive because it's
00:25:52
surrounded by nato it's surrounded by
00:25:54
nato because it's aggressive okay and
00:25:56
countries like finland and sweden have
00:25:57
been living under the russian boot and
00:25:59
finland most of all knows it from the
00:26:00
winter war and that threat has been
00:26:02
there constantly so
00:26:03
again what do you know that the finnish
00:26:05
and swedish parliaments who are trying
00:26:07
to make a decision for their people
00:26:08
don't know right if i were a country and
00:26:10
i and the and and i had the option to
00:26:12
have the richest and most powerful
00:26:14
country with the biggest military tell
00:26:17
me that if anyone invades you i'm gonna
00:26:19
go into war and fight against you i
00:26:21
would say yeah i would love that also
00:26:22
that sounds like a really great thing of
00:26:24
course every country would love to have
00:26:26
a pledge from the world's greatest
00:26:27
military that if anyone are you
00:26:28
seriously saying that countries would
00:26:30
line up to be ukraine
00:26:31
what do you know what do you know
00:26:33
about united the united states
00:26:35
intentions that all of the countries i
00:26:37
just showed you not including tyrannies
00:26:40
many of which are on the united states
00:26:42
side but many democracies who have had
00:26:44
their democracy subverted by the united
00:26:45
states who are saying we do not believe
00:26:48
the united states is well intentioned
00:26:49
that every time the united states
00:26:51
involves itself in a war it convinces
00:26:53
its own citizens that it's going to do
00:26:55
benevolent things but the reality is
00:26:57
exactly the opposite what do you know
00:26:59
that the entire rest of the world
00:27:00
doesn't it's not the entire rest of the
00:27:02
world the europeans
00:27:03
the europeans who are close to the
00:27:04
conflict completely disagree with you
00:27:06
the danes the cuddly little danes are
00:27:07
seeing left lethal aids ukraine first my
00:27:09
own country the spanish are us and
00:27:11
europeans are let's make shift gears i
00:27:13
want to get another aspect of this topic
00:27:14
so
00:27:15
um let's let's start with you antonio
00:27:18
what is the outcome that you would like
00:27:19
to see here and um
00:27:22
you know right now the way that victory
00:27:24
is being defined
00:27:27
by ukraine and by
00:27:30
our state department is that
00:27:32
we kick russia out of ukraine maybe even
00:27:36
crimea too that's the official policy
00:27:38
and maybe we destabilize and topple
00:27:40
putin
00:27:41
i mean where wh
00:27:43
where's the like what do you what's the
00:27:45
outcome that you think our objective
00:27:47
should be here my ideal outcome is
00:27:49
whatever the ukrainians want for
00:27:50
themselves which
00:27:52
seems to be
00:27:54
if you listen to them
00:27:56
seems to be a liberal democratic ukraine
00:27:58
that wants to join the greater eu
00:28:00
western sphere if you look at the the
00:28:02
maidan protest in 2015 this is when
00:28:04
everyone kind of revolted against the
00:28:06
the pro-russian leader at the time and
00:28:07
there were civilian shootings and if you
00:28:09
talk to ukrainians i mean there's been
00:28:10
200 years or longer of ukrainian sort of
00:28:12
nationalism kind of brewing but the
00:28:14
2014-2015 protests were really a
00:28:16
formative period where the ukrainians
00:28:18
really said this is it we've got our own
00:28:20
country and if you talk to them they're
00:28:21
like we've had seven years of democracy
00:28:22
we're not giving it up now right and if
00:28:24
you look at things like the mass graves
00:28:26
discovered abuca when the russians
00:28:27
pulled back they look at that and they
00:28:28
say if we fail that's the future that
00:28:30
awaits us right so they want the
00:28:32
opposite of that
00:28:33
apparently 80 to 90 of the population in
00:28:35
crimea is russian and wants to be part
00:28:38
of russia does that go back to ukraine
00:28:40
or does that go to russia
00:28:42
it's a good question but the ukrainians
00:28:45
under zielinski believe that crimea
00:28:47
belongs to them so is he wrong about
00:28:49
that
00:28:50
doesn't the principle of
00:28:51
self-determination mean that those
00:28:53
peoples should get to decide which
00:28:55
country they go with
00:28:56
i mean that's as much a question for
00:28:58
crimea as it is catalunya in spain i
00:28:59
mean uh
00:29:00
you want me to speak for the lens
00:29:02
but but the russians have a naval base
00:29:04
at sevastopol that gives them control
00:29:06
over the black sea and if you tell them
00:29:08
that
00:29:09
that what ukrainian victory means here
00:29:11
as they get kicked out of that naval
00:29:13
base and lose control of the black sea
00:29:16
you have threatened them existentially
00:29:18
and you know their policy with regard to
00:29:21
nuclear weapons is it's allowed if their
00:29:23
nation is existentially threatened so we
00:29:26
are playing with fire here is that an
00:29:27
objective that we are willing to risk a
00:29:29
nuclear war for
00:29:31
as we did in cuba with nuclear weapons
00:29:32
there
00:29:34
i don't think we should be so
00:29:36
we need to define our objectives here in
00:29:38
a more limited way than just whatever
00:29:39
the ukrainians say but here's the
00:29:41
reality right again this is one of the
00:29:43
things you get into american political
00:29:44
discourse everything isn't downstream of
00:29:46
american decision this will come down to
00:29:48
the fortunes of war on the ground in
00:29:49
ukraine which is partially a function of
00:29:51
how much it would give them obviously
00:29:52
yes and we can put strings on those
00:29:54
weapons right
00:29:56
40 billion of weapons are going there
00:29:57
and it's just this month's delivery
00:30:00
so i mean and it's a good question to
00:30:01
ask what happens to those weapons after
00:30:03
which i'm sure is a concern do you
00:30:05
believe our state department is working
00:30:07
for a negotiated peace
00:30:09
i don't know the inner workings of the
00:30:10
state department but should they be
00:30:13
no i think the worst stops in the
00:30:14
ukrainians wanted to stop
00:30:16
glad your views
00:30:18
there's so many countries all over the
00:30:20
world who want the united states to do
00:30:22
things that we don't that we don't do
00:30:24
for them the yemenis have been begging
00:30:27
the united states for six years to stop
00:30:30
sending huge amounts of weaponry and
00:30:32
intelligence to
00:30:33
the the saudis and you can say oh yeah
00:30:35
yemen is a totally different country
00:30:37
yemen's a different country but it's
00:30:39
still the united states government and
00:30:40
it is extremely disturbing to me i have
00:30:42
to say
00:30:43
that we suddenly seem to care so much
00:30:46
about the lives of
00:30:48
ukrainians and seem to care very little
00:30:52
about the lives of all the countries in
00:30:53
which we ourselves are the aggressors
00:30:56
and you can say well that's a completely
00:30:58
different issue but it's not a
00:31:00
completely different issue because what
00:31:01
the united what the outcome is of the
00:31:03
united states's role in ukraine is
00:31:05
determined by the us motive and what you
00:31:08
have to do to look at what the us motive
00:31:10
is is not pick the rhetoric that makes
00:31:13
you feel good we're on the side of
00:31:15
liberation that's what george bush said
00:31:17
in his 2003 state of the union speech
00:31:19
we're going to iraq because we love
00:31:21
democracy and we're going to liberate
00:31:23
the iraqi people from saddam hussein
00:31:25
that's what lyndon johnson said about
00:31:27
why we're getting involved in the war in
00:31:29
vietnam we love the south vietnamese
00:31:31
democrats and we're going there to
00:31:32
protect them from the south vietnamese
00:31:35
communists maybe if that had been true
00:31:37
those words would have had much
00:31:38
different outcomes but that wasn't the
00:31:40
reason that was the propagandistic
00:31:42
pretense and so to refuse to say i'm
00:31:45
going to interrogate the authenticity of
00:31:47
what u.s motives are is it just wash
00:31:50
your hands of the reality of the war
00:31:52
instead of what you hope the war is and
00:31:55
and that's
00:31:56
given antonio the last word yeah
00:31:58
okay right
00:31:59
we're good i'm gonna give you the last
00:32:00
one we're gonna give antonio the last
00:32:02
word since he was a little bit outgunned
00:32:03
here uh not outgunned because you did
00:32:05
more than fine on your own but there was
00:32:07
a little bit of two on one so we're
00:32:08
gonna give interview a lot david what
00:32:10
what were you guys talking about
00:32:12
somalia apparently or yemen apparently
00:32:14
but anyhow so when i was coming back
00:32:15
from ukraine and i was crossing back and
00:32:17
suddenly i was obviously i wasn't really
00:32:18
a refugee but i was in the refugee line
00:32:20
along with all the ukrainians leaving
00:32:21
and you're at the border it's the middle
00:32:22
of nowhere by the way it's not like a
00:32:24
big city or anything and you saw a sign
00:32:26
in polish that said you're entering
00:32:27
poland and the eu flag right and as a
00:32:29
new citizen that flag never really meant
00:32:30
much to me but and again not that my
00:32:33
time in ukraine was that bad but it did
00:32:34
feel precarious and it was a war zone
00:32:36
and sirens going off and all that stuff
00:32:38
to go back to what seemed like an
00:32:39
ordered liberal world seemed magical to
00:32:41
me i had the same feeling i went to
00:32:42
report on cuba on the internet years ago
00:32:44
for wired magazine and when i landed at
00:32:46
miami airport here was like man god
00:32:48
bless america i'm glad to be back here
00:32:49
there's a certain order and and rules to
00:32:51
life i think the global liberal order is
00:32:54
real and i think those who tend to [ __ ]
00:32:56
on it or at least question its value are
00:32:58
those that typically tend not to live
00:33:00
outside of it for one and undervalue its
00:33:02
importance in the world ladies and
00:33:04
gentlemen a debate for the ages well
00:33:06
done
00:33:15
[Music]
00:33:23
it to the fans and they've just gone
00:33:24
crazy with it
00:33:29
[Music]
00:33:34
besties
00:33:36
[Music]
00:33:48
it's like this like sexual tension but
00:33:50
they just need
00:33:51
[Music]
00:33:58
we need to get these
00:34:01
[Music]
00:34:07
i'm going on
00:34:09
[Music]
