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I'm
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going all right besties I think that was
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another epic discussion people love the
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interviews I could hear him talk for
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hours absolutely we crush your questions
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ad minute we are giving people ground
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truth data to underwrite your own
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opinion what you guys think that was fun
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pal all right everybody welcome back to
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the Allin podcast we're trying something
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new today you all love when we do
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interviews you love the great content
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that came out of the all-in summit but
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you also want to not miss an episode of
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the four of us talking about the news of
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the week so today we are doing our first
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episode of what we're calling the all-in
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interview what is the all-in interview
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well it's two of us interviewing one
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guest as opposed to 4V one which is
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quite unfair sometimes and a little bit
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unruly and so we're planning on doing
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these as an experiment maybe 10 times a
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year since we know you love interviews
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and today we are really excited because
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we have Jonathan height with us he is a
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Fearless author of some really amazing
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books freeberg you have read all four of
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them I have read two of them so why
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don't you give us your take on these
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four books Dave and then we'll kick it
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off to John it's great to have you John
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thanks for joining us I know you've done
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a lot of media lately and a lot of it
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has focused on the anxious generation
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which has obviously got some really
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important topical conversations embedded
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within it that people are now having
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because of it I first read the happiness
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hypothesis years ago in fact in one of
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our first episodes on of the all-in Pod
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back in 2020 I referenced it and I
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referenced some material from the
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happiness hypothesis my general take on
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the themes of your work is evolutionary
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biology meets modernity does that sound
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like a reasonable take that that the
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nature of the human being in a modern
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age causes these really interesting kind
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of points of tension conflict and
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behavioral shifts that maybe are
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undesirable or that are different than
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what we've had as a species in the past
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and so much of like how we're wired how
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our our brains work in the context of
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modern technology modern society is
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causing some behavioral system changes
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that maybe are a bit scary yeah yeah I
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does that sound like a fair a fair way
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to describe the art if you can just do
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two terms I'd say yeah evolutionary
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biology meets the problems of modernity
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but if we can add in evolutionary
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psychology meets anthropology and
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cultural psychology um with a little
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smattering of Sociology in the head of a
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guy who is just really bothered when he
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sees systems and institutions screwing
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up messing up and he thinks to himself
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wait if we just did this it would work
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better and so I get deeply involved in
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in what's going wrong with our democracy
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and that's that's the Righteous Mind
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what's going wrong with our universities
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that's the codling the American mind and
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my project at herox Academy and now
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what's going wrong with family life and
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and children and people born after 1995
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so I would just put a few more terms in
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there but yeah so from from an
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Institutional perspective fair enough
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yeah I thought about this deeply like
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outside of the context of your book that
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you know humans in the last kind of
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century and a half have had this kind of
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industrial production thrust upon us
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then digital media thrust upon us and
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then open markets and globalization
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thrust upon us all of which give us kind
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of instant access to knowledge about the
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state of the world in a way that we've
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never had historically humans maybe saw
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a family maybe their Village you know it
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wasn't like mass communication but with
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digital media I can see the good life of
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someone on a private jet a thousand
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miles away and I can live stream their
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their private jet experience I can
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theoretically order a Louis vuon bag and
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have it arrive in a couple of hours if
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only I had the means uh that creates
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this kind of like tension I can have any
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experience I I I want to because of the
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system of of markets that that have kind
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of put in place and I think like
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historically took generations for things
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like the Bible or the Quran or
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monarchical systems to kind of permeate
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and and you know kind of make Society
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believe a certain system but now you can
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kind of pump the right message to
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someone and shift their their brain and
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and things change quite
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considerably no that's right I mean
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things change at different speeds and of
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course Evolution um works extremely
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slowly unless you are a plant biologist
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who has a company that is making it
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happen very quickly but until you know
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until very recently you know our our
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psychological Evolution or the evolution
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of our minds happened at the level of
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tens of Millennia um and then culture
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changes more slowly and you know really
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the the origin the origin of sociology
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is really in the huge changes in the
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19th century um rought by the Industrial
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Revolution and some the first Industrial
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Revolution yeah I guess sure for you
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guys it's the first Industrial right
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yeah a lot of people discard it they
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don't they don't pay as much attention
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to it yeah it's not that big compared to
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what's happening now right and you know
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because often we can see that we can see
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changes on the surface like oh people
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will now have more access to information
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that's great but a lot of the early
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sociologists like you know vber and
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durkheim and Tunis and all these you
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know German European guys they could see
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that something something very deep about
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the way we live together is changing in
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ways that we don't really understand and
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you know one of my concerns again we'll
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talk a lot about this I love technology
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I love my phone I love all the
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convenience you know I'm not anti-tech
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but one thing that I'm thinking a lot
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about is how you how you guys whatever
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the the tech industry out in the west
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coast you do employ a bunch of social
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psychologists like especially meta a few
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other companies not necessarily for good
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I think sometimes for manipulation but
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you do employ some social psychologist
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I've never heard of any company that
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employs a sociologist and what I mean by
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that is the changes that are coming to
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us because of tech are so Earth
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shattering um and so fast that they are
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changing the basic conditions of
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America's liberal democracy in ways that
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I think it may not survive that is all
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the assumptions made by the founding
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fathers about how we live together how
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news travels why passions affect the
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legisl all all those assumptions might
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now be rendered moot in ways that we do
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not understand and no one is studying
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and so anyway that's just one of my
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causes for concern and to to bring this
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from a graduate school class and you
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know the 40,000 foot view you guys are
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talking about and bring it down to the
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the reality of today maybe 20 years ago
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25 years ago a lot of folks were
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building mobile social applications and
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they figured out hey games gamification
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levels being in martial arts going from
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white belt to yellow belt scoring
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becoming in Dungeons and
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Dragons 19th level Wizard or whatever
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this becomes highly addicting and they
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built it into these products and then
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once they built it into the products we
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then passed another Rubicon which was
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hey let's just hand this to machine
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learning or Ai and have them do the
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gamification without it being explicit
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and that's really Tik Tock so you had
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the gamification of Twitter and Facebook
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which was likes retweets follower count
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Instagram and then now it's transitioned
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into something even more
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pricious which is some Black Box on in
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Tik Tok knows this is going to maximize
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the dopamine hits so this is kind of
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gone this is an experiment that's gone
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ay I think so and just to build on that
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you know there was a lot of research on
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television television came in relatively
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slowly compared to what's happening now
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and uh you know television was kind of
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hypnotic and some kids could watch for
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hours you know I did sometimes um but
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just as like the move from from heroin
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to fentel kills lots and lots of people
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cuz fentel is so incredibly concentrated
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the move from television to algorithm
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driven social media where it's not just
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like massar marketed we think this show
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you know neelon ratings say this show is
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popular it's we have ai targeting this
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at you targeting feed at you so what
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happens when you have a society in which
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kids are consuming media they're playing
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sports they're reading books they're
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doing all sorts of things what happen if
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the media consumption suddenly gets a
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100 times more attractive or addictive
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or short-term dopamine focused and I
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think there are huge broad societal
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implications that we don't understand
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and I'm very concerned by them and what
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you're speaking to is the velocity here
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I think uh as well huh free BG Andel
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targeting is is just I think your TV an
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knowledge is really interesting because
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we're both I think we're all three of us
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gen xers here I'm baby boomer by two
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years I'm the end of the baby boom 63
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got it I think fre BR you're the tal end
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of Gen X uh we we would certainly take
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in the Gen X Draft when you look at this
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the the TV analogy is so good because we
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did have a moment in time where TV got
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faster and was gamified it was called
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MTV and they were like hey let's make
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this a lot faster you're right now
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you're just going to watch three minutes
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it's called a music video so we're
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taking your 30 minutes down to
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three and then in that video the
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directors of V music videos became the
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directors of movies and TV shows later
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that's where they cut their teeth on
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little
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$50,000 projects but because they had to
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do so many Cuts in those projects to
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tell the story in three minutes or four
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minutes of a Michael Jackson video that
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made its way into things like The
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Sopranos which had a much greater
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density of characters or Game of Thrones
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today and then that's giv way now to
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whatever the hell is going on on Tik
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Tock through our brain so I'm curious
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what you think that final jump the Tik
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Tok jump is doing to kids brains yeah I
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think this is the right way to look at
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things that to look at how the changes
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in technology even if they seem to be
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gradual they can have just really
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outsize effects um when I wrote I turned
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in the manuscript for the book in um
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last August of 2023 and I'd only taught
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this undergrad class on flourishing once
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I've taught it as a grad class for a
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long time but uh I teach at NYU Stern
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and in the fall I taught it again after
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I turned in the book and one thing I
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really learned from my students is is
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that Tik Tok and then YouTube shorts so
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the ones copying it you know Instagrams
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they're uniquely horrible and the reason
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there are many reasons why they're
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horrible and let's start with the the
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contrast so um as a little experiment I
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said to my class how many of you watch
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Netflix every week at least once a week
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almost every hand goes up how many of
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you wish that Netflix was never invented
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nobody no hands go up because stories
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are wonderful humans live in stories we
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tell stories we've always told stories
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the stories on TV are so much better
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today than were when I was a kid I'm
00:11:02
older than you guys but I remember like
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I Dream of Genie and you know um the
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Brady butt they were stupid shows very
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flat yeah very flat yeah yeah so stories
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are great there's no problem with
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stories no problem with Netflix and then
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I say how many of you use Tik Tok or one
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of those programs at least once a week
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the great not everybody but the great
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majority of hands go up how many of you
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wish that it was never invented the
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great majority of hands go up and what's
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happening to and these are 19-year-old
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they're smart kids they're you know
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they're mostly sophomores at New York
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University Stern School of
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Business um but these things aren't
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stories a story is entertaining but it
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doesn't give you a huge hit of dopamine
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it's it's it's if it's really well told
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it can be an aesthetic experience you
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lose yourself but it's not about the
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quick dopamine reward system um whereas
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Tik Tok and those that short form it's
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really you know it's able to optimize
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for whatever whatever gives you the U
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that little bit of dopamine in your
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reinforcement Pathways and because
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there's a behavior response Loop which
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you didn't have with television with
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television you could raise the volume
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lower the volume or change the channel
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that's it those were your options there
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was not like a feedback loop where the
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television is rewarding you for certain
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actions whereas what Tik Tok pioneered
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is we don't care who you know we only
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care what makes you pause what makes you
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click what makes you react so um Tik Tok
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is basically if BF Skinner could come
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back to life one of the founders of
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behaviorism and observe tick and observe
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Tik Tok you'd say this is brilliant this
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is so brilliant yeah variable rewards
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yeah exactly very can you just hit on
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why from an evolutionary biology
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perspective we are wired this way what
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what what caused what is the wiring
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that's being tapped into here so we have
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to go back before humans because the
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brains change very slowly and whatever
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was built in by the time you get to
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mammals and primates is the basic
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architecture of our minds so we have a
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reinforcement system which has worked
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really really well for other animals and
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it is when certain things happen when
00:13:07
there are signals that this is advancing
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your evolutionary project which is
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survive eat have sex leave Offspring um
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so if if something happens you're making
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progress towards say finding a mate you
00:13:22
get a reward and it feels good and that
00:13:25
doesn't make you say ah I got my reward
00:13:26
I'm done the way dopamine works is is
00:13:29
the the the the neurons I think it's in
00:13:31
the nucleus cumbent is one of the main
00:13:33
reward areas um those circuits that use
00:13:36
dopamine the dopamine says oh that was
00:13:39
good keep going get more and that's why
00:13:42
potato chips are the way they are
00:13:44
because you don't eat when say oh that
00:13:45
was good you eat one say now I want one
00:13:47
more than I wanted the first one so this
00:13:50
worked really well for other animals and
00:13:52
by the time you get to humans that's
00:13:53
what we're stuck with is this it's very
00:13:55
much based on a few kind of a few sort
00:13:58
of imperatives
00:14:00
um another but another thing which is a
00:14:02
little more uniquely human is the need
00:14:04
for reputation and so chanes do have a
00:14:08
whole lot going on about status I mean
00:14:09
so these systems go back before humans
00:14:12
um and status is is is life or death it
00:14:15
certainly is who get among males
00:14:16
especially it's who gets to mate um so
00:14:19
maintaining High status is extremely
00:14:21
important and we certainly see this in
00:14:23
adolescence adolescence are they you
00:14:25
know they would gladly do something that
00:14:27
knocked a few years off of their life at
00:14:28
the end of their life if they could be
00:14:30
more popular today again it's the short
00:14:32
term we we've got to do the thing that
00:14:34
seems so imperative to us now and that's
00:14:36
reputation so we have all so you know I
00:14:39
guess uh Dave you started off that I'm
00:14:40
something about evolutionary biology
00:14:42
yeah I love Evolution it is it's like
00:14:44
it's like what is the what is the design
00:14:46
manual for humans and then it's
00:14:48
customizable but what is the design
00:14:50
manual um and so once you start looking
00:14:52
at things like you know reward
00:14:54
reputation you know we we like outdoor
00:14:56
spaces that look like savanas and golf
00:14:59
course I mean there's all kinds of stuff
00:15:00
you can learn from Evolution and then
00:15:02
you can understand what some of these
00:15:04
guys hacked and we have actually chath I
00:15:06
think is one of the ones who talked to
00:15:07
there's a great quote I think I might
00:15:08
even you know what I think I even quote
00:15:09
him in the book there's all you know a
00:15:11
lot of the guys who were in there early
00:15:13
they could see they could see exactly
00:15:16
what was being done to hack into young
00:15:18
people's concerns for their reputation
00:15:21
and the prolonged dopamine release this
00:15:24
is not good for your brain it's one
00:15:27
thing to find a right
00:15:29
or a mate and have sex and like have
00:15:32
this dopamine release like okay yeah
00:15:33
let's find some more right peirs eat a
00:15:35
couple more till we're full this kind of
00:15:38
a A system that gets shut off naturally
00:15:40
in nature and with sex like okay yeah we
00:15:43
we've had this orgasmic release we don't
00:15:45
need to do it again for some period of
00:15:46
time not to get too graphic here about
00:15:48
Pairs and right pairs but you know when
00:15:51
you're doing Tik Tock there is an
00:15:54
addiction here that to Skinner to your
00:15:57
Skinner Point variable interal and its
00:16:00
variable reward something could be the
00:16:02
HW Tua girl and everybody in the world
00:16:05
is like oh my God sex and you know she's
00:16:08
spicy or whatever but then there's
00:16:10
another person on the other side of that
00:16:11
and a
00:16:12
society so you have the dopamine you
00:16:15
know very primal thing happening but
00:16:18
then you also have this next layer
00:16:19
you're talking about socially which is
00:16:22
now what happens to that girl what
00:16:24
happens to her family is she going to
00:16:26
kill herself is she going to become a
00:16:28
reality TV star I don't know I mean
00:16:31
we're in Uncharted Territory no human in
00:16:35
evolution did not anticipate a billion
00:16:38
people a million people understanding
00:16:42
one person's or digesting one person's
00:16:45
most candid worst embarrassing or
00:16:47
thrilling moment did it no that's right
00:16:50
we we evolved for small group
00:16:52
interactions with a lot of Gossip um and
00:16:55
when you you know so when kids are
00:16:57
talking in small groups and someone says
00:16:59
something stupid and others make fun of
00:17:00
them people laugh and then you move on
00:17:03
but when you put kids on a stage where
00:17:05
potentially millions of people could be
00:17:07
laughing at them and they could be the
00:17:09
internet topic of the day and it might
00:17:10
last for the whole week um a lot of
00:17:13
those kids are considering suicide
00:17:14
because when you are being shamed and it
00:17:17
seems like you're out um a lot of kids
00:17:20
will think of killing themselves because
00:17:21
that's a way to relieve the pain um so
00:17:24
however and the thing is look almost all
00:17:26
of us as adults we see this stuff we you
00:17:28
know you if if you post stuff on social
00:17:30
media and then you read the comments and
00:17:32
then you know you you can be upset by
00:17:33
the comments imagine if you were 12 or
00:17:36
13 your brain is not developed you don't
00:17:38
have any foundation uh yeah and then
00:17:41
some permanent solution for a temporary
00:17:44
problem seems like a fine idea that's
00:17:46
right and so I just you know I really
00:17:48
want to emphasize puberty as that's
00:17:50
puberty is one of the key ideas in my
00:17:51
book so in the anxious generation I
00:17:53
really focused on well the subtitle is
00:17:56
how the great rewiring of childhood is
00:17:58
is causing an epidemic of mental illness
00:18:01
so while it's childhood that got rewired
00:18:04
from 2010 to 2015 it is unrecognizable
00:18:07
the change that happened in those five
00:18:08
years is beyond what what anyone could
00:18:10
have ever imagined um and the
00:18:13
Millennials are fine because they were
00:18:16
already done with puberty by 2010
00:18:18
largely and so they had flip phones um
00:18:21
when they were going through puberty
00:18:22
let's say ages 11 to 12 it begins
00:18:24
typically little earlier for girls uh to
00:18:26
you know 156 is sort of the peak that's
00:18:29
like the ma you know it goes on until
00:18:30
your early 20s but it's especially early
00:18:32
puberty the early teens the mid- teens
00:18:35
that is the period where your brain is
00:18:37
literally rewiring it is literally from
00:18:40
Back to Front changing over from the
00:18:42
child form to the adult form which is
00:18:44
much more competent but much less
00:18:46
flexible we don't respond to brain
00:18:47
damage as flexibly as we did when we
00:18:49
were children because everything's
00:18:50
locked
00:18:51
in and so the difference between the
00:18:53
Millennials and gen Z is that the
00:18:55
Millennials went through puberty on flip
00:18:57
phones um and they actually and they Ed
00:18:59
those phones to meet up with each other
00:19:00
and they saw each other and they got
00:19:02
together in person they made eye contact
00:19:04
they laughed together they had a
00:19:06
recognizably human childhood by 2015
00:19:09
that's not happening anymore I mean
00:19:11
things have changed and so if j z
00:19:13
suppose you're born uh in 1990 let's say
00:19:16
born in 2000 um so you're seven when the
00:19:19
iPhone comes out but that's not so
00:19:20
important because the iPhone doesn't
00:19:21
change things for the first few years uh
00:19:23
you're nine when social media goes Super
00:19:25
viral when you get the retweet button
00:19:27
the share button the like button the
00:19:30
gamification yes exactly that's right
00:19:32
social media changes radically beginning
00:19:34
of 2009 the status aspect well that's
00:19:37
right because then it's it's not about
00:19:39
me connecting with your page it's now
00:19:40
about the news feed and likes and what
00:19:42
goes I I want to accumulate likes and
00:19:45
Views and I think that like and I want
00:19:46
to come back to this point about status
00:19:48
that you made earlier because uh and I
00:19:49
want to kind of relate it to human
00:19:52
history as well because it's really
00:19:53
important to understand where that where
00:19:55
that comes from where does status as a
00:19:57
desire come from yeah absolutely let me
00:19:59
just finish up the narration of j z and
00:20:01
we'll go right to that um so Jen Z had
00:20:04
the bad luck that they went through all
00:20:05
of puberties if you're born in 2000 you
00:20:08
are and let's say you're a girl 2011
00:20:12
2012 is when everyone is changing in
00:20:14
their flip phones for smartphones 2010
00:20:17
you get the first front-facing camera on
00:20:19
the iPhone and then Samsung copies that
00:20:20
right away so 2010 you get the
00:20:23
front-facing camera 2009 we got super
00:20:25
viral social media of 2012 Facebook buys
00:20:28
Instagram and that's when it really
00:20:29
becomes popular in this period is when
00:20:32
everyone's getting high-speed internet
00:20:33
in 2010 most people didn't have it so
00:20:35
the point is the Millennials in 2010 on
00:20:37
their flip phones could not spend all
00:20:39
day on their flip phones what are you
00:20:40
going to do texting like that difficult
00:20:42
texting on the number pad all day long
00:20:43
nobody did that um but by 2015 gen Z you
00:20:47
can be on your phone all day long like
00:20:49
and half of them say literally half of
00:20:51
American teenagers say that they are
00:20:53
online almost constantly so if they seem
00:20:56
to be talking to you they're thinking
00:20:57
about what's going on their phone if
00:20:59
they're on the bus next to other kids
00:21:01
they're on their phone if they're in
00:21:02
class the teacher's talking they're on
00:21:03
their phone which let's be candid
00:21:05
watching the funniest thing that
00:21:07
happened on planet Earth in the last
00:21:09
hour yeah yeah is by definition going to
00:21:12
be funnier or more entertaining than the
00:21:14
three of us having a burger that is a
00:21:17
great way to put it I'm going to take
00:21:18
that line and try to remember to credit
00:21:20
you for it watching the funniest thing
00:21:22
okay watching the funniest thing that's
00:21:24
great yeah yeah and so can you blame
00:21:27
them right it's it was kind this is my
00:21:29
point about like instant access I've
00:21:31
always had this belief that the Zen
00:21:32
Buddhists got it right like they always
00:21:34
had it right there are two key aspects
00:21:36
of human nature that if you can address
00:21:38
those you solve all the world's problems
00:21:40
which is desire and dualism dualistic
00:21:44
thinking tell me more what do you mean
00:21:46
do if you solve those two things so
00:21:48
desire yes Bud's all about cutting off
00:21:50
desire and and the aspect of Desire that
00:21:53
plays out in this context is I at any
00:21:56
given moment now have access or can can
00:21:59
see can create a desire for something
00:22:01
that I would if I was sitting in a
00:22:02
village without a phone I wouldn't have
00:22:04
a desire to be on a private jet but now
00:22:06
I'm sitting on this phone I'm seeing
00:22:07
this funniest moment or this most
00:22:08
beautiful person or this incredible
00:22:10
experience that I am not a part of I am
00:22:13
not in I don't get instant desire
00:22:14
creation for me so the do the dopamine
00:22:16
aspect I also question as anticipatory
00:22:20
because I I I think I don't know if it
00:22:21
was your book or some other research
00:22:22
I've read about dopamine being released
00:22:24
in anticipation not necessarily in the
00:22:27
satisfaction of AC
00:22:29
that the acquisition of something always
00:22:31
feels a little bit okay I got it whereas
00:22:34
the moment right before you get it it's
00:22:36
when you get the best opening like that
00:22:38
that anticipation is really it is the
00:22:40
experience of taking a scoop of ice
00:22:41
cream and John just to as as a fellow
00:22:44
East Coast where I grew up in Brooklyn
00:22:46
and went to forom and spent my first 30
00:22:48
years in Manhattan in Brooklyn what
00:22:50
you're experiencing here is also the two
00:22:52
most important things to Silicon Valley
00:22:54
people private Aviation and then the
00:22:56
next greatest height owning a sports
00:22:58
team so this is this is our version of
00:23:03
sex and ripe fruit oh wow yeah private
00:23:06
Aviation and then owning the Knicks the
00:23:08
two things I'm working towards we could
00:23:10
s here and talk about the dopamine
00:23:12
release of this but it is true that
00:23:14
there is an end state to all of this
00:23:16
private Aviation and
00:23:18
owning team
00:23:20
apparently but I but I do think like
00:23:22
this point about is status a point of
00:23:25
desire right so um I don't know that I
00:23:27
want something until I see someone else
00:23:29
with it like that becomes the notion of
00:23:31
desire for me absolutely absolutely that
00:23:34
and that plays in like I see someone
00:23:36
with a million likes on their photo I
00:23:38
don't have a million likes on my photo
00:23:40
so I suddenly want that like that
00:23:42
creates a new a new emptiness in my
00:23:44
spirit that didn't exist before or in my
00:23:46
brain that didn't exist before that then
00:23:48
I'm on this constant circuit looking for
00:23:50
how do I do something that creates a
00:23:51
million likes because that's something
00:23:53
that others have that I don't have yeah
00:23:55
that's right the there's a there's a a
00:23:57
great thinker who I I know is was talked
00:23:58
about in Silicon Valley Rene Gerard
00:24:01
French men who taught at Stanford uh I
00:24:03
read I read some of the chapters of one
00:24:05
of his books and you know I read some
00:24:06
summaries of his work I think it's it's
00:24:07
brilliant and the key thing is this we
00:24:10
kind of naively assume that young people
00:24:12
copy what they see other people doing
00:24:15
but that's not true you know if my if my
00:24:18
kid sees me doing something they're not
00:24:20
going to copy me I mean when they're two
00:24:21
they do but not older um if they see
00:24:24
some other kid doing something they're
00:24:25
not necessarily going to copy that just
00:24:27
because the kid is doing it
00:24:28
Gerard's point is what we copy is what
00:24:31
they want so if someone we don't know
00:24:34
what to want I mean yes we you know
00:24:36
we're hot we want cool but beyond that
00:24:39
we don't know what we want and so we're
00:24:42
incredibly attuned to what everyone else
00:24:44
in our reference group is
00:24:46
wanting and that's always been the case
00:24:48
and of course advertisers in the in the
00:24:50
19th century began to pick up on that
00:24:53
how do you make it seem like everybody
00:24:54
wants this product so advertising has
00:24:57
always been about about trying to hack
00:24:59
trying to really activate this Rene jard
00:25:01
mechanism that we're copying each
00:25:02
other's wants and um and that's where I
00:25:06
think influencer culture represents the
00:25:09
what not redu the like take it to its
00:25:11
extreme conclusion where I speak to
00:25:14
young people they come to ask me for
00:25:16
advice on how to be successful and some
00:25:19
of them have not even thought about what
00:25:22
they can do that would be of Worth to
00:25:24
anyone all they're focus on is how to
00:25:26
get more followers right so you know
00:25:29
like everybody wants likes so and
00:25:32
followers so I want likes and followers
00:25:34
well you know in the world before this
00:25:36
you had to do something to get Prestige
00:25:39
you had to have a skill you had to play
00:25:41
guitar you had to be rock singer Etc and
00:25:45
I think kids have actually I give kids a
00:25:46
lot of credit I think they've put it
00:25:47
together pretty wisely they watched Kim
00:25:50
Kardashian during this period of time
00:25:51
we're talking about release a a sex tape
00:25:55
uh or you know whatever participate in
00:25:57
the release a sex I'm not sure exactly
00:25:59
the details of it get a bunch of likes
00:26:01
get a bunch of followers get a private
00:26:03
jet get a TV show and to their point
00:26:06
this does actually make sense it is a
00:26:08
sequence of events that other people
00:26:11
have now done they're not wrong there is
00:26:13
a clear path that's right and that's a
00:26:15
trap that's a trap that leads to
00:26:16
unhappiness that's right but there's
00:26:18
there's always been this notion of
00:26:21
celebrity and kind of you know like this
00:26:25
there there the celebrity replaced the
00:26:27
monarchy replaced the church whatever
00:26:31
right um but nowadays with the the
00:26:34
influencer culture the celebrity is
00:26:36
accessible meaning I have access to
00:26:38
being in that state so it creates this
00:26:40
deep dark hole for me at least this is
00:26:42
my my read on it that I can't I'm not in
00:26:45
that state but I should be I could be
00:26:47
therefore I have this deep like
00:26:49
emptiness because I theoretically I
00:26:51
could be that person it's not like
00:26:53
there's a cast system it's not like
00:26:55
there's a monarchy where your blood
00:26:57
determines whether or not you get to be
00:26:58
a king or or the church where the Lord
00:27:00
determines whether you get to be in
00:27:02
charge in this case someone got there
00:27:04
but I'm not there so I get to see and
00:27:06
not only that but my reference library
00:27:08
historically was like four to six
00:27:10
sitcoms a week now my reference library
00:27:12
is four to six Tik Tok videos a minute
00:27:15
and you know I'm just like suddenly
00:27:17
there's all these different things that
00:27:18
I don't have as status statuses that I
00:27:21
don't that I hav an accumulated should
00:27:23
we talk about thoughtful uh proposals in
00:27:26
your book in the latest book uh the
00:27:28
anxious generation i i i two things
00:27:31
struck me as absolute Nob brainers and
00:27:34
you are currently in a war with people
00:27:36
trying to um I think maybe who got to
00:27:41
these topics before you and maybe feel
00:27:43
some ownership of them and they you've
00:27:46
basically
00:27:48
become I don't know the lightning rod
00:27:50
for all of this discussion now and
00:27:52
people are coming to you as the expert I
00:27:53
get the sense some of these sociologists
00:27:55
are a little upset that you've taken
00:27:56
their uh their their shine putting it
00:27:59
aside because you do reference them and
00:28:01
you give them a lot of credit in the
00:28:03
book The pouches at school for and the
00:28:06
phone lockers uh maybe you could touch
00:28:09
on that and then what's the proper age
00:28:11
for kids to get a
00:28:13
phone those two things to me seem like
00:28:16
the most pragmatic proposals in the book
00:28:19
okay so let me just set this up by by
00:28:22
sort of jumping ahead to the notion of
00:28:24
collective action problems and the four
00:28:26
Norms that I suggest in the book to
00:28:27
break out of collection Collective
00:28:28
action problems so uh the clearest
00:28:31
Collective action problem is any kid who
00:28:34
doesn't get a phone is left out and so
00:28:36
the kid says Mom I'm the only one
00:28:38
without a phone I'm in fifth grade
00:28:40
everyone else has a phone they're making
00:28:42
fun of me and this hurts us as parents
00:28:44
so we say okay I'll give you I'll get I
00:28:46
have an old phone here we'll reactivate
00:28:48
it for
00:28:49
you and so we can you can end up in a
00:28:52
situation where everyone has a bad
00:28:54
outcome which is you get to the point
00:28:55
where now you know in third and fourth
00:28:58
great kids are all getting phones um but
00:29:01
and you sort of get there because
00:29:02
everyone else is doing it and uh j z
00:29:05
feels trapped on social media I talk to
00:29:08
my students why are you on why are you
00:29:09
spending so much time on Tik Tok and
00:29:11
Instagram and five other platforms every
00:29:13
day you have no time to do anything of
00:29:15
any use to anyone and they say well I
00:29:17
have to because I need to know what
00:29:19
people are talking about I don't want to
00:29:20
be left out so this whole thing is a set
00:29:22
of collective action traps that's how we
00:29:24
got so deep into this and so the
00:29:26
solution is collective action uh so in
00:29:30
my book I kind of assume that we might
00:29:33
never get any real help from the federal
00:29:35
government that there is a chance that
00:29:36
coost of the kids online safety act will
00:29:38
will pass that is the one thing that
00:29:39
really could pass but I really wrote the
00:29:42
book assuming there's not going to be a
00:29:43
legislative solution to this we have to
00:29:45
do this ourselves and by changing norms
00:29:48
and so in the book I propose I mean have
00:29:50
like 50 suggestions 50 ideas for parents
00:29:52
and teachers and schools but but I
00:29:54
realized wait four of these are just
00:29:56
really foundational things that we can
00:29:57
do together and they're really powerful
00:29:59
so in order they are no smartphone
00:30:02
before high school we have just clear
00:30:04
this all out of middle school middle
00:30:05
schoolers should not be having the
00:30:06
internet in their pocket give them a
00:30:07
flip phone give them a phone watch give
00:30:09
them something else but not a smartphone
00:30:11
no uh social media till 16 social media
00:30:15
is wildly inappropriate for minors it's
00:30:17
full of extreme sex violence uh you know
00:30:21
men from all over the world reaching out
00:30:22
to you because they want sex I mean it's
00:30:24
insane that we have children talking
00:30:25
with men all over the world so no social
00:30:27
media 16 the third Norm is phone free
00:30:30
schools lock up the phones in a Yonder
00:30:32
pouch or in a phone Locker in the
00:30:34
morning they get it back at the end of
00:30:35
the day and the fourth Norm is far more
00:30:37
Independence free play and
00:30:38
responsibility in the real world because
00:30:41
until the 1990s kids had a childhood
00:30:43
they were outside a lot they had
00:30:45
Adventures they learned to be
00:30:46
self-governing self-supervised we took
00:30:48
that away from them beginning of the 90s
00:30:50
totally gone by 2015 so our kids never
00:30:53
get any fun or Adventure so all they
00:30:56
have is their screens so if we do those
00:30:58
four things we break out of these
00:30:59
Collective action problems we restore
00:31:01
childhood we delay the full social media
00:31:04
immersion until age 16 when they're you
00:31:06
know halfway or more than halfway
00:31:07
through puberty that's my basic proposal
00:31:10
so those are the four what's the
00:31:12
reaction been to this proposal amazing
00:31:14
it's not like it's not like met is gonna
00:31:16
wake up someday and Zuckerberg's gonna
00:31:18
have this Epiphany that he's done more
00:31:20
damage to Children than the toac well
00:31:22
I've got to imagine that the reaction
00:31:24
has been amazing to anyone that's not
00:31:27
gone through this problem as children
00:31:30
right like you if you have you have you
00:31:32
talked to the um the Gen Z about the
00:31:35
proposal my good I think yeah yeah
00:31:38
that's what's so exciting about this is
00:31:40
that so I propose these four Norms I
00:31:42
have this analysis of what happened at
00:31:43
gen Z I paint gen Z as a generation
00:31:46
that's been damaged that's going to be
00:31:47
less than they would have been they're
00:31:49
less ambitious they're less successful
00:31:50
they're less happy they're less
00:31:52
competent and I've given this I've given
00:31:54
versions of this talk in middle schools
00:31:55
in high schools in universities I always
00:31:58
ask at the end of it what do you think
00:32:00
did I get your generation wrong and I
00:32:03
and I usually try if I remember I
00:32:04
usually say Okay question time if you
00:32:07
think I got something wrong please raise
00:32:09
your hand now you know or or or or
00:32:11
please be the first up to the microphone
00:32:13
and maybe one time someone said I think
00:32:16
you got this wrong the other you know
00:32:18
thousands and thousands and thousands of
00:32:19
times they say yep that's basically
00:32:21
right now maybe some of them are too shy
00:32:23
to speak up but my point
00:32:25
is young kids like you know 9 10 they
00:32:29
desperately want phone Tik Tok
00:32:31
everything but by the time they're in
00:32:33
late high school or certainly College
00:32:35
the overwhelming view I find among gen Z
00:32:38
is wow did this mess us up U not that
00:32:41
I'm going to quit because I don't want
00:32:42
to be alone but man did this mess us up
00:32:44
and that's why when you ask them do you
00:32:47
wish social media was never invented
00:32:48
most of them say yes I wish it was never
00:32:51
invented so gen z um gen Z is incredibly
00:32:55
supportive if you go to the website for
00:32:57
the book anxious generation.com we have
00:32:59
all kinds of activities for you know
00:33:00
parents and teachers and genz we we have
00:33:03
writing on my substack after babel.com
00:33:05
by gen Z that's why this is so different
00:33:07
from any previous Tech Panic is that the
00:33:10
kids themselves see the problem what is
00:33:12
the connection
00:33:15
between beams and coddling of the
00:33:17
American mind and the anxious generation
00:33:19
and what we see on college campuses
00:33:21
recently so um can you comment on the
00:33:25
the protests MH the
00:33:36
continuation yeah so my previous book
00:33:38
The cing of the American mind began when
00:33:40
my by the way I I I gave a copy to
00:33:42
everyone at our Summit last year so we
00:33:43
gave away 1800 of it was my pick yeah
00:33:46
yeah so began when Greg lukanov who is
00:33:48
the president of the foundation for
00:33:50
individual rights and education noticed
00:33:52
that all of a sudden around 2013 2014 it
00:33:55
was actually the students who were
00:33:56
demanding protections from speech from
00:33:58
books from speakers shut this down ban
00:34:00
this stop this person from speaking and
00:34:02
he came to me and said something's go
00:34:04
something's wrong something's really
00:34:06
different about students today it wasn't
00:34:08
like this in 2012 um something's changed
00:34:11
uh and they are more fragile they want
00:34:13
more protection from words books
00:34:14
speakers they think speech is violence
00:34:16
and at the time we thought that these
00:34:17
were Millennials because that's was the
00:34:19
name for the Young Generation
00:34:20
Millennials um uh but and so we wrote an
00:34:23
article on this in the Atlantic like
00:34:25
laying out what we think is happening
00:34:26
something is teaching the students to
00:34:28
think in these distorted ways that are
00:34:29
like cognitive distortions um and then
00:34:32
in 2015 so the article comes out August
00:34:34
2015 in October 2015 or November 2015
00:34:37
everything blows up beginning at Yale
00:34:39
the Halloween costume protest all sorts
00:34:41
of things universities undergo a kind of
00:34:43
a cultural revolution really some very
00:34:45
similar a lot of similarities to the
00:34:47
Chinese Cultural Revolution of pulling
00:34:49
down everything High pulling down
00:34:50
everything old a kind of a revolutionary
00:34:52
young people's movement shaming
00:34:54
professors spitting on professors all
00:34:55
that sort of stuff um now so what's the
00:34:58
continuity today the one of the worst
00:35:01
things that the leaders did back then
00:35:03
the university presidents is they did
00:35:05
nothing uh students would shout down
00:35:07
speakers no one was ever ever punished
00:35:10
for shouting down speakers even when
00:35:12
they used intimidation I should clar
00:35:14
McKenna 20 there was one clar McKenna
00:35:16
did punish some students in 2018 but
00:35:18
hundreds and hundreds of shout Downs no
00:35:20
one ever punished the message was oh as
00:35:22
long as you're protesting for social
00:35:23
justice you know you can break the rules
00:35:25
you can use intimidation you can shout
00:35:27
people down you can bang on glass and
00:35:28
make people afraid for their lives you
00:35:30
can do those things cuz it's for a good
00:35:32
cause and besides we're actually kind of
00:35:33
afraid of you too so that was the
00:35:34
precedent that was set and that I
00:35:36
believe was the beginning of one of the
00:35:38
greatest brand destructions in American
00:35:40
history highered used to have one of the
00:35:42
greatest brands in the world Elite
00:35:43
highered was the Envy of the world now
00:35:44
it's a laughing stock it's a you know
00:35:46
Harvard is a punchline in jokes around
00:35:47
the world certainly in America um and so
00:35:50
it's because there was fear there was
00:35:51
lack of leadership and we permitted
00:35:53
intimidation rather than persuasion
00:35:55
universities must be about persu equ you
00:35:58
can never win an argument by saying if
00:36:00
if you don't agree with me I'm going to
00:36:01
hurt you I'm going to destroy you
00:36:02
socially we can't allow that but we did
00:36:06
uh and so now Along come the protests um
00:36:08
so of course the October 7th the the
00:36:11
massacre was
00:36:13
horrific the Israeli response has
00:36:16
produced horrific suffering and death
00:36:19
yes it's normal and expectable that
00:36:21
there would be debates on a college
00:36:22
campus there's no and nobody that I know
00:36:24
of is saying people shouldn't be
00:36:25
protesting in favor of the pales Ians
00:36:28
and but the question is really about the
00:36:30
encampments and other efforts to disrupt
00:36:34
the functioning of the university to
00:36:36
pressure the university to make a
00:36:39
statement pro- Palestine or anti-israel
00:36:42
or to divest from Israel so this is the
00:36:44
use of intimidation and disruption which
00:36:49
they allowed for nine years before they
00:36:52
said since 2015 as long as you're
00:36:53
protesting for social justice you can do
00:36:55
whatever the hell you want we're not
00:36:57
going to punish for anything so now the
00:36:59
sort of the intersectional social
00:37:00
justice protests that are pro Palestine
00:37:03
and often anti-israel and often shading
00:37:04
at
00:37:05
anti-Semitism um the presidents don't
00:37:07
know what to say and that was the
00:37:09
spectacle we observed on December 5th in
00:37:11
that uh house hearing room of the three
00:37:13
presidents who could not explain why it
00:37:17
was against their policies for people to
00:37:19
call for death to the Jews like they
00:37:22
couldn't they had been so tied in a not
00:37:24
with their hypocrisy they couldn't even
00:37:26
explain it so yeah there's there's a
00:37:27
very direct continuity and In fairness
00:37:29
if the protesters were simply doing a
00:37:33
Sittin they got a long history of people
00:37:35
sitting in in the 60s and 70s protesting
00:37:37
different things is virtuous it's this
00:37:40
sort of tipping over into intimidation
00:37:42
when five or six people surround a
00:37:45
student and or chase them into a library
00:37:48
or bang on the doors I mean if you were
00:37:50
to just I always use uh my friend Sam
00:37:53
Harris's you know technique which is
00:37:55
just replace you know go through through
00:37:58
each uh you know person on the victim
00:38:00
Olympics and the identity politics bingo
00:38:02
card yeah and just replace it okay now
00:38:05
white students are chasing black
00:38:07
students black students are chasing
00:38:09
Hispanic students Hispanic students are
00:38:10
chasing Japanese students lesbians or
00:38:13
chasing hetero people whatever it is
00:38:16
pick your from the bingo card and and
00:38:19
then just see if this stands up and if
00:38:20
it had been black students being
00:38:22
surrounded by white students like people
00:38:24
would be like what that's right exactly
00:38:27
this is my point about like dualistic
00:38:28
thinking like the whole core of like the
00:38:31
Zen Buddhist approaches to get rid of
00:38:34
the sides in a in a system but but can
00:38:37
you talk a little bit about this
00:38:39
oppressor oppressed yes concept and how
00:38:42
critical it is to social behavior and
00:38:47
now social Evolution I've thought a lot
00:38:49
about this over the last year and I feel
00:38:51
like so much of human societal
00:38:55
development politics purchasing behavior
00:38:58
is all driven by this concept of
00:39:01
oppressor and oppressed which can be
00:39:03
approximated as the Hales and the
00:39:04
have-nots and at any given moment I can
00:39:07
feel like a have not to some other have
00:39:09
and theoretically I'm a have to someone
00:39:12
else who's a have not my have not
00:39:16
identity drives me to purchasing to
00:39:19
getting likes on Facebook to changing
00:39:21
who's in office to deciding which
00:39:24
company I should spend money on and
00:39:25
which company I should not spend money
00:39:27
on and that this notion extends its way
00:39:30
into feeling oppressed meaning there's a
00:39:32
system in place that's keeping me from
00:39:33
having something that someone else has
00:39:36
and maybe you can talk a little bit
00:39:37
about has this changed has this always
00:39:39
been in human psychology is this
00:39:41
changing because of modernity and why
00:39:44
would be would be great no good no
00:39:45
that's right that's another point of
00:39:46
continuity from the codling uh so the
00:39:49
the central idea of the coddling was
00:39:51
that there are three great untruths
00:39:52
ideas that are so bad that if any young
00:39:55
person believes all three they're almost
00:39:57
certain to be depressed anxious um not
00:40:01
amount to much in life and those three
00:40:03
are what doesn't kill you makes you
00:40:05
weaker so avoid stressful experiences
00:40:08
avoid speakers who are going to say
00:40:09
things that you hate don't don't expose
00:40:11
yourself always trust your feelings your
00:40:13
feelings are right if you feel offended
00:40:15
by something that someone has offended
00:40:17
you um and and someone has to do
00:40:19
something about someone has to punish
00:40:20
that person and the third to your point
00:40:23
about Duality is life is a battle
00:40:25
between good people and evil people and
00:40:27
this is the Distortion that's caused the
00:40:30
most human misery I mean this is a
00:40:31
normal thing people do this is part of
00:40:33
being a tribal species we're very very
00:40:35
good at coming together to say our side
00:40:37
has been hurt or cheated or defiled by
00:40:39
their side um they're the evil ones
00:40:42
we're you know they're perfectly bad
00:40:43
we're perfectly
00:40:44
good uh so it's that third Distortion is
00:40:47
really the most pernicious from a for
00:40:49
societal level now what you just said
00:40:51
before about the Haves and the Have Nots
00:40:53
that's what the left used to be about
00:40:55
from the time of marks or the French re
00:40:57
ution even um until the 1950s or 60s it
00:41:01
was about the haves versus the have
00:41:02
knots and the left uh was the one that
00:41:05
stood up for the have knots and the left
00:41:07
uh you know stood up for the poor and
00:41:09
the people uh but we go through a period
00:41:11
in the 60s and 70s of the conversion
00:41:13
away from away from a a sort of a
00:41:16
Marxist idea based on economics to
00:41:19
something is it a little bit Marx is it
00:41:21
Michelle Fuko there's different
00:41:23
intellectual heritages here where now
00:41:25
it's all about power it's not or Have
00:41:27
Nots it's power and power is such
00:41:33
that whatever you look at in society you
00:41:36
will see that some people have power and
00:41:39
privilege and they use that to oppress
00:41:42
the opposite and this is what
00:41:44
intersectional intersectionality is
00:41:46
about it starts with a perfectly
00:41:47
legitimate point that there are multiple
00:41:49
dimensions of identity and um you know
00:41:52
to be a black woman is not just the sum
00:41:54
of being black or being woman they're
00:41:55
unique indignities that hit black women
00:41:57
that you don't notice unless you are
00:41:59
tuned into this so intersectionality
00:42:01
begins you know Kimberly crer with a
00:42:02
very good Insight which I think is
00:42:03
absolutely right but the way it plays
00:42:06
out on campus what what Greg and I
00:42:08
argued in our book is 18year olds coming
00:42:11
on to campus they're easily lured into
00:42:13
this incredibly simplistic and exciting
00:42:17
way of looking at the world which is I
00:42:20
don't have to know anything about you I
00:42:21
can just look at you and I can say oh
00:42:23
you're a man oh you're a white man oh
00:42:25
that means that you're an oppressor
00:42:27
um and I can feel virtuous to the extent
00:42:29
that I am not that and this puts a lot
00:42:32
of pressure especially on white kids to
00:42:34
try to develop some identity as a victim
00:42:37
um and which is incredibly
00:42:39
disempowering um and just you know not
00:42:42
good for the development and what we end
00:42:44
up with is a movement that that thinks
00:42:48
in these binary terms and this is what
00:42:49
brings us to today is of course you know
00:42:52
Jews I'm I'm Jewish we always thought
00:42:54
that we were among history's victims and
00:42:56
certainly you can't understand the
00:42:57
creation of the state of Israel without
00:42:59
understanding what happened in the
00:43:01
Holocaust um but because of the way
00:43:03
intersection played out because
00:43:04
whiteness is so quintessentially evil
00:43:07
like whiteness is the thing that is
00:43:10
ruining everything whiteness is the you
00:43:12
know so everything that's not whiteness
00:43:14
unites together to to fight whiteness
00:43:17
now most Jews as I understand it most
00:43:18
Jews in Israel are actually spartic uh
00:43:21
they're not from Europe uh but but in
00:43:24
America Jews are quoted as white and
00:43:27
therefore if there's a conflict between
00:43:29
the Jews and the Palestinians then
00:43:31
obviously one is the one is the
00:43:32
oppressor one is the oppressed now
00:43:34
obviously economically Israel is wealthy
00:43:36
Israel is powerful so it's not that that
00:43:38
there's no legitimacy to that view
00:43:40
obviously there's a huge power
00:43:41
differential in Israel versus Gaza um
00:43:44
but the mindset that says everything is
00:43:47
about power is so narrowing incorrect
00:43:52
boring and offensive I I you know I
00:43:55
spent so many years trying to help the
00:43:57
left using moral psychology so they
00:43:58
would stop losing elections and I
00:44:00
finally decided they're beyond hope the
00:44:02
right's Beyond hope too but um you know
00:44:05
the left is losing Asians it's losing
00:44:08
black men it's losing
00:44:10
Hispanics in the time of Donald Trump
00:44:12
why is this happening a big piece of it
00:44:14
seems to be this oppressor victim
00:44:16
mindset pushes policies that are so
00:44:18
offensive to most people of every race
00:44:20
that they're like I've had it with the
00:44:22
left I don't like this so sorry that was
00:44:24
a rant that was more of a rant than an
00:44:26
answer to your question but I hope it
00:44:27
was entertaining no I it it seems
00:44:30
accurate do you think the pendulum is is
00:44:32
Shifting what do you see broadly
00:44:35
socially right now are we still in this
00:44:37
Loop where we are creating
00:44:41
oppressor oppressed kind of construct
00:44:44
perpetuating policy or are folks in the
00:44:48
left saying it's gone too far it's time
00:44:50
to make a change now folks are feeling
00:44:53
because I've seen a lot of folks that
00:44:54
have traditionally been I'm not I'm not
00:44:57
a politics guy and I'm not a in a
00:44:59
political party or anything but um I've
00:45:01
seen like a lot of folks who I know who
00:45:03
are traditionally Democratic voters
00:45:05
Democrat voters who are now Republican
00:45:07
voters after what's happened over the
00:45:09
last couple of years surprisingly
00:45:11
shockingly would have never sworn that
00:45:12
would have been the case 10 years ago
00:45:15
are things changing now is that is that
00:45:17
sort of shift GNA be what what pulls
00:45:19
things policy-wise the other way yeah I
00:45:22
I think things are changing um so at
00:45:23
least on you have to look institution by
00:45:25
institution and so at least on campus
00:45:28
things got insane in 2015 I mean it was
00:45:30
again it was like the cultural
00:45:31
revolution began in 2015 it wasn't like
00:45:33
this in
00:45:34
2012 and and I started a group called
00:45:36
heterodox Academy if there are any
00:45:38
professors listening to this please join
00:45:39
heterodox Academy we advocate for
00:45:41
Viewpoint diversity among professors we
00:45:42
think that we shouldn't all think the
00:45:43
same we shouldn't all be on the left and
00:45:45
Progressive and every year since 2015
00:45:47
things got worse and worse and worse and
00:45:49
especially 2020 with Co then especially
00:45:51
George Floyd a lot of progressive ideas
00:45:53
got supercharged ibram kendi became the
00:45:55
patron saint everything was about
00:45:57
anti-racism so that's when things really
00:46:00
became completely Bonkers um not just on
00:46:03
campus but in journalism in museums you
00:46:06
know firing all the white guides and you
00:46:08
know all just crazy stuff was happening
00:46:10
2021 uh 22 uh business went many
00:46:14
businesses went that way but businesses
00:46:16
have to actually make money and so by
00:46:17
2022 a lot of businesses were rolling it
00:46:19
back they're saying whoa this stuff is
00:46:20
terrible this is not making life better
00:46:23
for for for members of minorities this
00:46:25
is actually just turning everyone
00:46:26
against everyone we all hate this um so
00:46:29
business has begun definitely moving
00:46:31
away from all this stuff um universities
00:46:34
were not doing we're not really moving
00:46:36
away until December 5th I think December
00:46:38
5th that that court that hearing was so
00:46:40
humiliating for higher ed I think a lot
00:46:42
of us feel much Freer now we feel like
00:46:44
you know what you know the
00:46:45
intersectional you know the the sort of
00:46:47
the the people who will destroy your
00:46:49
reputation if you question them they're
00:46:51
on the defensive now you know we don't
00:46:52
hear much from IAM kendi anymore we
00:46:54
don't hear him referred to very much
00:46:56
anymore um so I think that at least even
00:46:58
on campus the pendulum is swinging I I
00:47:01
was afraid it wasn't a pendulum I was
00:47:02
afraid it's more like a tower that just
00:47:03
Falls faster and faster but I do think
00:47:06
because the great majority of professors
00:47:08
and presidents are true liberals they're
00:47:10
on the left but they believe in free
00:47:12
speech they're not illiberal what I
00:47:13
think has happened on the far left and
00:47:15
the far right we have illiberalism so if
00:47:18
the far left is not liberal the far
00:47:20
right is not conservative um and most of
00:47:24
us the 70% in the middle are actually
00:47:25
pretty reasonable people who could live
00:47:27
together but we're all afraid of the
00:47:28
extremes but we're less afraid of the
00:47:30
extremes now than we were a year ago
00:47:32
because Cano culture has ended
00:47:35
essentially and like the left took it
00:47:37
too far and the right took it too far is
00:47:39
that what's you have to look institution
00:47:41
by institution and so in institutions
00:47:44
that are governed that are dominated by
00:47:45
the left and that is all the knowledge
00:47:46
creating institutions so it's journalism
00:47:48
the arts media universities most of the
00:47:51
scientific establishment other than the
00:47:52
hard Sciences um in all those areas yes
00:47:55
I think the left took it too far you
00:47:57
know we went into a point where
00:47:58
everything like chemistry has to be
00:48:00
about anti-racism and and you know
00:48:02
everything has to be about race and that
00:48:04
was just kind of nuts and and um so I I
00:48:07
I think there is a kind of a move to
00:48:09
Common more Comm konium very racist
00:48:12
element very racist element yeah just
00:48:16
subtly racist can you talk a little bit
00:48:18
about what traditional liberalism and
00:48:21
conservatism should look looks like
00:48:23
because a lot of people in our public
00:48:24
audience a lot of people I talk to
00:48:26
confused now about the terms because so
00:48:29
much of traditional liberalism feels
00:48:31
illiberal because of your point about
00:48:32
far-left Behavior traditional
00:48:34
conservatism feels illiberal because of
00:48:36
far-right behavior what is the
00:48:38
difference between the two and kind of
00:48:41
help us bring balance to the force you
00:48:43
know like so I'll answer your question
00:48:45
as a as a psychologist which is um one
00:48:48
of the amazing discoveries in Psychology
00:48:50
since the 80s is that is that almost
00:48:53
everything about our personality is
00:48:55
partly heritable and if you have an
00:48:57
identical twin separated at Birth you
00:48:59
never met but if you're very much on the
00:49:02
left your twin probably is too something
00:49:04
about our brains make us predisposed to
00:49:06
the right or the left and it goes back
00:49:08
to openness to experience and
00:49:09
conscientiousness a few personality
00:49:11
traits but basically there's a there's a
00:49:14
liberal or Progressive sentiment that
00:49:16
says it's captured by this Robert F
00:49:18
Kennedy quote some men see things as
00:49:20
they are and say why I dream things that
00:49:22
never were and say why not so
00:49:25
progressives hisor are the people who
00:49:27
look at existing institutions and say
00:49:30
you know why do we you know why don't we
00:49:31
change this like why don't we have some
00:49:33
other thing uh which might be more just
00:49:36
so progress is always pushing for
00:49:38
Progress for change U but then the the
00:49:42
um the wisdom of the right is to say you
00:49:45
know what we may not understand our
00:49:47
institutions but if we just go changing
00:49:49
them willy-nilly it's going to be a
00:49:51
disaster because we don't understand
00:49:53
what we're doing in fact I opened our
00:49:54
conversation with that that's actually a
00:49:56
conser one something I learned from
00:49:57
reading the the conservative
00:49:59
intellectuals uh going back to Edmund
00:50:01
Burke um you can't just go messing with
00:50:03
institutions and expect it to work out
00:50:05
well so a good liberal democracy is when
00:50:07
in which you have some people pushing
00:50:08
for change you got other people saying
00:50:10
slow down like not so fast like let's be
00:50:12
careful about this and that's William F
00:50:14
Buckley's famous quote about National
00:50:17
Review is going to stand a th history
00:50:19
yelling stop or least slow down so
00:50:21
that's great like you have a car with a
00:50:22
gas pedal and a Brak like you need that
00:50:24
and what happens when there are no
00:50:25
conservatives what happens when there's
00:50:27
no one to say slow down you know
00:50:29
Progressive revolutions have an almost
00:50:31
perfect record of disaster I mean it
00:50:33
always descends into chaos and economic
00:50:36
chaos and and and cruelty and what
00:50:38
happens when there are no progressives
00:50:40
when it's all conservative you tend to
00:50:42
get much more repressive you know
00:50:44
certainly lgbtq rights I mean you get
00:50:46
you get very predictable pathologies on
00:50:48
either
00:50:49
side and part of my analysis what I
00:50:51
think has gone wrong in in our country
00:50:53
what you know I'm very focused on what
00:50:55
social media has done to society as well
00:50:56
as to gen Z is there always was a
00:50:59
distribution where most people on the
00:51:01
left are reasonable left they're
00:51:03
progressives I sorry they're they're
00:51:04
true liberals they they believe in a
00:51:07
John Stewart Mill vision of a society in
00:51:09
which people are maximally free to
00:51:10
construct lives that they want to live
00:51:13
that I think is the heart of the liberal
00:51:14
Vision a liberal society and on the
00:51:17
right you have conservatives who
00:51:19
generally believe in Tradition family
00:51:22
group loyalty religion the things that
00:51:25
bind us together and and and limit bad
00:51:28
behavior this is Thomas Soul talking
00:51:30
about the uh the constrained vision of
00:51:32
humanity right so so that's all healthy
00:51:35
and then you always have some far-left
00:51:37
radicals who they become maist in one
00:51:39
generation they become robes peer in
00:51:41
another you know they chop off heads
00:51:43
prone to violence on the far left you
00:51:45
got a group prone to violence on the far
00:51:46
right that are reactionary that are
00:51:49
authoritarian and let's say there was
00:51:51
some distribution now then Along Comes
00:51:53
Twitter Along Comes Facebook Along Comes
00:51:56
social media
00:51:57
what happens uh Mark Zuckerberg used to
00:51:59
say how could it be wrong to give more
00:52:01
people more voice that sounds great but
00:52:04
what if you're not giving the
00:52:06
disempowered more voice what if you're
00:52:07
not giving everyone voice what if you're
00:52:10
bringing everyone into the Roman
00:52:11
Coliseum and saying okay let's fight it
00:52:14
out for the for the entertainment of the
00:52:16
people in the stands and the great
00:52:18
majority of people don't want to fight
00:52:20
with swords they just go quiet and some
00:52:22
people pick up the swords like yes let's
00:52:24
go um and and so the far left becomes
00:52:28
super empowered the far right becomes
00:52:29
super empowered and the center left and
00:52:31
the center right go silent and that's
00:52:33
what I think is you know that's I think
00:52:34
a real disaster for for our country I
00:52:37
think that was like such an excellent
00:52:39
like commentary for for people to hear I
00:52:43
want to ask one follow on which is why
00:52:45
has liberalism and conservatism in some
00:52:48
aspects switched so one one of the
00:52:51
things I think a lot of folks observe is
00:52:53
that modern liberalism is a lot of um uh
00:52:58
redistribution equality for the
00:53:00
oppressed bring everyone up to the same
00:53:03
outcome the same level on an outcome
00:53:05
basis which limits the freedom and
00:53:08
flexibility of others it limits free
00:53:11
markets for example you know more taxes
00:53:13
more regulations is one way to
00:53:15
characterize that that that
00:53:16
conservatives will say more taxes and
00:53:18
more regulation is not John Stewart Mill
00:53:21
it's not more free market enablement and
00:53:24
then on the flip side this idea of
00:53:26
conservatives want to have less
00:53:27
government less regulation less taxes um
00:53:31
uh which you know can drive more
00:53:33
inequality of outcome Etc could drive in
00:53:35
fact fundamentally and I believe this
00:53:37
very deeply free markets Drive progress
00:53:40
technological progress and social
00:53:41
progress and as a result by getting
00:53:44
technology out the most disempowered
00:53:46
benefit the most by new technology they
00:53:49
can they can progress more than the
00:53:51
wealthy can progress and so why has that
00:53:53
flipped why is conservatism and
00:53:54
liberalism in some aspects
00:53:56
flipped and when does that when did that
00:53:58
happen yeah so don't think of it as
00:54:01
though liberalism and conservatism have
00:54:03
flipped think of it as though the left
00:54:04
and the right have really changed one
00:54:07
thing I learned from studying
00:54:08
conservatism from the intellectual
00:54:09
historian Jerry Mueller is that
00:54:11
conservatism in every era is a reaction
00:54:14
to the excesses of the left I see so if
00:54:17
the left was the revolutionaries in the
00:54:20
French Revolution the right were
00:54:21
monarchists they they wanted the
00:54:23
restoration of the King right if the
00:54:27
left in America is about you know
00:54:30
pulling down the founding fathers
00:54:31
because they were slave owners the right
00:54:34
is going to be no we're going to get
00:54:35
extra patriotic we're going to wear
00:54:36
funny hats like the you know 18th
00:54:38
century
00:54:39
Americans so you you always have to
00:54:41
understand the right as a reaction to
00:54:42
what they perceive to be the excesses of
00:54:44
the left now a lot of what's happened is
00:54:47
as I said the the left is a political
00:54:50
Coalition that that votes similarly in
00:54:53
elections same with the right it's made
00:54:55
of ax of different kinds of people um
00:54:58
there's a wonderful study from Mor
00:54:59
common that talked about the seven
00:55:01
tribes of seven groups of Americans um
00:55:04
the the progressive activists which is
00:55:06
the group on the furthest left they were
00:55:08
never liberal in fact they're really
00:55:11
illiberal they're not even about
00:55:13
bringing up the bottom they're much more
00:55:14
focused on pulling down the top uh
00:55:16
that's a kind of a that's like the the
00:55:18
ugly side of egalitarianism so they're
00:55:20
very focused on restraining rich people
00:55:22
pulling down privilege they don't seem
00:55:24
as concerned about bringing up poor
00:55:25
people so that's the far that's the the
00:55:28
far left they're not liberal but now but
00:55:31
for a while they were really dominant
00:55:32
not in the Democratic party this is an
00:55:33
important point the Democratic party has
00:55:35
two Wings which one usually wins the the
00:55:39
liberal the moderate Wing not the not
00:55:41
the squad not the so if you just look at
00:55:43
the parties the Democrats are a
00:55:45
functioning center-left party with a you
00:55:48
know an outspoken Progressive Way that's
00:55:50
great that's Viewpoint diversity I love
00:55:52
that the right is different if you just
00:55:54
look at the party you used to have all
00:55:57
kinds of true conservatives you know
00:55:59
George HW Bush through Mitt Romney they
00:56:02
were true conservatives very decent men
00:56:05
they believed in decency family Val I
00:56:07
mean these you know I have a lot of
00:56:09
respect for traditional conservatives
00:56:11
but now it's the party of Donald Trump
00:56:13
and the Republican party has gotten rid
00:56:15
of nearly all its moderates the
00:56:16
Democrats pulled some dirty tricks that
00:56:18
actually wiped out a few of those
00:56:19
moderates which I I think they really
00:56:21
have a lot to answer for but my point is
00:56:23
if you just look at the parties the
00:56:25
Republican part has been gutted of its
00:56:27
moderates now they do crazy insane
00:56:29
things like let's work really hard to
00:56:31
solve the immigration problem Oh Donald
00:56:34
Trump says let's not do it okay let's
00:56:35
thread out the window I mean insane
00:56:37
stuff that is really hurting the country
00:56:39
so I just want to make it clear I talk a
00:56:41
lot about universities where the villain
00:56:42
is the left there really is no right to
00:56:44
speak of on University campuses but in
00:56:46
Washington you I think the Republican
00:56:48
party is the party that's really gone
00:56:51
farther off the reservation or if one
00:56:53
can still say that today uh whatever you
00:56:55
know that's gone can we do some quick
00:56:56
lightning round questions on sure on on
00:56:59
parenting so my kids are I got three
00:57:02
daughters under seven there's a
00:57:04
conversation amongst the parents when do
00:57:06
you let the kids get get phones when do
00:57:08
you let them get on social media and
00:57:10
some of the parents don't listen so then
00:57:12
the kid you got a couple kids in the
00:57:14
class that are on social media they're
00:57:15
on iPhones it's fifth grade fourth grade
00:57:18
whatever and the kids that aren't are
00:57:20
the Have Nots they're left out they're
00:57:22
they're not able to be on the text
00:57:23
streen with the kids that are so they're
00:57:25
not cool they're so disengaged they're
00:57:27
angry at their parents they're sad how
00:57:29
do you address that as a parent where
00:57:32
you've got some of the kids in the class
00:57:33
that are doing this given the the
00:57:35
framing you provided earlier on the best
00:57:36
rules yeah so the answer is collective
00:57:38
action so for each each kid feels left
00:57:41
out but what if you so I assume you
00:57:45
you're in contact with the parents of
00:57:47
your kids friends right because you got
00:57:48
to drop them off pick them up you do all
00:57:49
sorts of things so what if you were to
00:57:51
talk with the parents of a few of the
00:57:53
friends who don't have haven't given
00:57:55
phones yet
00:57:56
and you say hey we don't want our kids
00:57:58
to have a phone based childhood um you
00:58:01
know do you do you agree with me on that
00:58:02
should we work you know if we work
00:58:03
together you know John height says if we
00:58:05
work together we can actually give our
00:58:06
kids a fun childhood um are you in on
00:58:09
that and what that means is we're going
00:58:11
to follow the for nors we're not giving
00:58:13
we are not giving our child a smartphone
00:58:15
until High School let's just commit to
00:58:17
that now you know we should be sending
00:58:19
our kids out in which case like like I
00:58:22
bought my daughter a phone watch a gizmo
00:58:24
it could call three numbers that was it
00:58:25
right that was was enough for two or
00:58:26
three years that was all she needed she
00:58:28
could go out and do errands she could go
00:58:29
get bagels she could go you know bring
00:58:31
food to my office across the park so
00:58:34
it's okay to give kids a way to contact
00:58:36
you but you just all agree no smartphone
00:58:38
and you all agree no social media until
00:58:40
16 and that even includes Snapchat um
00:58:43
which is what the kids are using to
00:58:44
communicate but just lots of bad stuff
00:58:45
happens on
00:58:47
Snapchat but then if some of the parents
00:58:49
don't agree and then you've got this
00:58:50
class system that forms amongst the
00:58:52
social you know groups of the kids you
00:58:54
got some kids that are that
00:58:56
you just hold the
00:58:58
line H well but yes if you you can it's
00:59:02
hard to hold the line on on your own
00:59:04
it's much easier if you have three of
00:59:05
you holding the line but it's even
00:59:07
better if it's not holding a line it's
00:59:10
offering a more positive vision of
00:59:11
childhood so you and the kid so your kid
00:59:14
and the other kids who who your parents
00:59:16
all agree you make extra efforts to give
00:59:19
your kids an exciting fun childhood
00:59:21
where they do exciting things together
00:59:23
the other kids can be home on their bed
00:59:24
swiping all day long let do that they're
00:59:26
going to end up basically anxious and
00:59:30
never having really done anything to
00:59:31
grow up whereas your kids are getting
00:59:34
together for four-way sleepovers or
00:59:36
you're taking them you know bowling and
00:59:38
you just you know you just well to the
00:59:39
extent that you're allowed to you step
00:59:41
back like you let them be self-governing
00:59:44
you know you give them money or give
00:59:46
them an allowance I I suggest in the
00:59:47
book be really clear about chores
00:59:49
allowance and encourage them go ride
00:59:50
your go ride your bicycles down and go
00:59:52
get ice cream you know go get ice cream
00:59:54
just before dinner for all I care be a
00:59:56
little
00:59:56
rebellious so if you you know we've
00:59:59
really taken almost all the fun out of
01:00:01
childhood there's very little Adventure
01:00:02
left in child I've leaned into that my
01:00:03
kids love the fact that I told them my
01:00:05
Dad would kick us out of the house in
01:00:07
the morning in the summer and we could
01:00:08
come back on when the street lights came
01:00:10
on that's the common rule that's right
01:00:11
so tell me how you tell me how you do it
01:00:13
because that's there's a lot of
01:00:14
questions how do you do today and then
01:00:16
um I just had them leave the house and I
01:00:20
told them I'm locking the doors for 3
01:00:21
hours go have fun outside and then
01:00:23
sometimes when we're in town I'll have
01:00:25
them walk around I'll give them the 20
01:00:26
bucks I'll say you're going to meet me
01:00:28
at the Apple Store at this time if you
01:00:30
need to another time you can go ask them
01:00:32
but we're going to meet at the Apple
01:00:33
Store in two hours have fun anything
01:00:35
goes wrong just go into any store and
01:00:37
talk to an adult boom I'm just giving
01:00:39
them those kind of like free range
01:00:41
things yes that's beautiful and do they
01:00:43
see this as punishment or are they
01:00:45
excited they enjoy they love it of
01:00:47
course they love it of course they love
01:00:48
it they ran around the house found one
01:00:50
of the doors open and say you forgot to
01:00:52
lock this one lock it great and they
01:00:54
said what if we have to go to the
01:00:56
or we need a drink of water I said
01:00:59
there's the hose and there's a tree yeah
01:01:02
excellent that's how we did it inly yeah
01:01:04
got the host and that's they think it's
01:01:06
hilarious uh and they love it and then
01:01:09
the other thing I do as a tip is I you
01:01:11
know if they want to do screen time I
01:01:13
tell them great uh come up with a
01:01:15
creative project and uh one hour of
01:01:18
creative project you can do one hour of
01:01:19
TV or 1 hour of iPad or something so I
01:01:22
just do one for one with them they have
01:01:24
to earn it by doing something creative
01:01:26
and they're like we don't know what to
01:01:27
do and I'm like figure it out and then
01:01:28
boredom I explained to them equals
01:01:30
creativity you have to be bored your
01:01:32
mind clears and then you come up with a
01:01:34
great creative idea now they're writing
01:01:37
movies they're writing stories they're
01:01:38
making books they're writing songs like
01:01:41
they literally will complain it's like
01:01:44
you mentioned Skinner when you
01:01:45
extinguish a behavior like an addiction
01:01:47
yeah to devices the bad behavior spikes
01:01:50
they scream they cry and then boom it
01:01:53
drops down to zero and you're fine you
01:01:55
just have to weather that like brief
01:01:57
storm it's the withdraw that's right
01:01:59
because when you've had hyper
01:02:00
stimulation of quick easy dopamine those
01:02:03
systems uh downregulate they react they
01:02:06
try to restore homeostasis now it takes
01:02:08
more stimulation to get them to the
01:02:10
normal level you now you take away the
01:02:12
video gam you take away the phones and
01:02:14
for you know Anna lmy says it's you know
01:02:17
two or three weeks to overcome
01:02:19
withdrawal symptoms for especially for
01:02:21
more serious drugs but in my experience
01:02:23
is more like your it's like a few days
01:02:25
it's you know the first three
01:02:26
but by we actually most it that's like
01:02:29
summer camp so your kids to summer camp
01:02:31
and never your child to a camp that
01:02:34
allows kids to keep phones on them never
01:02:35
do that that's a wasted opportunity for
01:02:37
detox this is what kids want by the way
01:02:39
kids want to have a childhood they don't
01:02:42
you you asked them you pulled the
01:02:43
students and they they told you we don't
01:02:45
want to be addicted to the stuff that's
01:02:46
like if you were to ask Philip Seymour
01:02:48
Hoffman you want to be addicted to
01:02:49
heroin and you wish heroin was never
01:02:50
existed he'd be like yeah I'm dead of
01:02:52
course I wish heroin didn't exist yeah
01:02:54
that's right this thing ruin my life
01:02:56
like that they know they're on heroin
01:02:59
what' you say that that was a PLL like
01:03:01
the whatever just I'm thinking about New
01:03:03
York and just I mean I used to work out
01:03:05
in the same gym as in Chelsea Piers and
01:03:07
I'm every time I see Philip sore Hoffman
01:03:09
in like the master or long came poly I
01:03:12
just think this is what we're doing to
01:03:14
our kids they get addicted to these
01:03:15
things and then fent and all and like
01:03:17
Talented Mr Ripley wasn't he just so
01:03:19
many great artists gone and I think
01:03:22
that's what's happening to these kids
01:03:23
brains I think their brains are being
01:03:24
melted and all their creativity their
01:03:26
ability to learn an instrument to
01:03:27
interact with each other we stealing
01:03:29
their childhoods and replacing them with
01:03:31
Zuckerberg's payday yeah for the heavy
01:03:33
users especially I mean I try to avoid
01:03:35
saying brain melted I try to be a little
01:03:38
you know a little more precise for the
01:03:39
heavy users for the you know and and
01:03:41
this is the thing about five depending
01:03:43
how you measure it about 5 to 12% of the
01:03:45
boys do get do become problematic users
01:03:48
of video games so for most Boys video
01:03:49
games are okay they're they're a lot of
01:03:51
fun and I wouldn't say video games are
01:03:53
melting most boys brains but 5 to 12% is
01:03:56
a lot of boys to lose and these are boys
01:03:59
who are spending you know three four
01:04:01
five hours a day on video games for
01:04:03
years and years and years they don't
01:04:05
develop social skills they don't develop
01:04:06
dating skills these boys I think are
01:04:09
that's right exactly exactly it's just I
01:04:12
mean it is you may not like to say
01:04:14
you're an M Professor it makes these
01:04:16
kids really weird these I watch these
01:04:18
kids who are addicted to Tik Tock and
01:04:20
addicted to video games they get really
01:04:22
socially weird they can't make eye
01:04:23
contact they can't have a conversation
01:04:25
and then they become young adults they
01:04:27
don't know how to go on a date they
01:04:28
don't know how to talk to adults I mean
01:04:31
they don't know how to work yeah tell me
01:04:33
more about what you're seeing in in
01:04:34
Silicon Valley in the tech industry are
01:04:36
you talking only about boys or are you
01:04:37
saying girls are this way girls aren't
01:04:39
making eye contact no I think it's the
01:04:43
boys mainly the girls seem to be a
01:04:44
different subset of behaviors which is
01:04:48
like
01:04:49
um uh maybe more social pressure and
01:04:54
more Depression more disorders self harm
01:04:57
all that collection where maybe it's
01:05:00
directed you know in some way of um
01:05:03
harming yourself which is really
01:05:05
internalizing disorders that's right
01:05:07
internalizing disorders yeah yeah so and
01:05:10
and tell me how gen Z employees are
01:05:12
working out in general in your in your
01:05:14
they're terrible and that's that's what
01:05:16
I hear very widely yeah you just hire
01:05:18
people in Canada or the Philippines and
01:05:20
well Canada is almost as bad as America
01:05:22
Canada has problems too they're very
01:05:23
much like us but I agree immigrants from
01:05:27
non- English speaking countries that's
01:05:28
right they have a they have a better
01:05:29
work ethic um and I'm G to you know what
01:05:32
I'm hoping that will get to is because
01:05:35
this problem is so w like this is what I
01:05:36
you know I work in a business school I
01:05:37
talk to a lot of people in business I
01:05:38
always ask that question I always hear
01:05:39
the same thing I've never heard anyone
01:05:40
say oh yeah young people are so
01:05:42
wonderful people are having problems
01:05:43
integrating genz employees into their
01:05:45
companies they're they're fragile they
01:05:47
the top 20% are fantastic the majority
01:05:50
are do not have the wherewithal the
01:05:54
resiliency the Cal confidence the
01:05:56
communication skills to operate in a
01:05:58
business environment period full stop so
01:06:01
what you know what what what do you
01:06:02
think about this what about like instead
01:06:04
of like don't hire American kids saying
01:06:07
look for signs that this person can be a
01:06:09
team player and work with other people
01:06:12
so especially go for anybody who's
01:06:14
ex-military anybody who is Major team
01:06:16
sports yeah no people do hire based on
01:06:19
that they always did in sales like the
01:06:21
sales department you wanted military
01:06:23
people you wanted discipline because
01:06:24
it's a numbers game have to just grind
01:06:26
it out but I do think like even for what
01:06:30
what people don't realize is when
01:06:32
everybody went home for covid managers
01:06:35
learned how to manage remote workers
01:06:38
once they figured out I can manage a
01:06:39
remote worker dealing with somebody who
01:06:41
has too much anxiety to come to work
01:06:43
today or be in a meeting and told they
01:06:45
did a job and like you need to Buck up
01:06:47
and do a better job like people will
01:06:49
quit on the spot people will start
01:06:51
crying people will drop off the zoom
01:06:53
because there's too much anxiety to be
01:06:55
told you did a bad job now you tell that
01:06:58
to somebody who's working in India or
01:07:00
South America or Portugal or Manila hey
01:07:03
this is not the standard at which we
01:07:05
operate they're like can you tell me how
01:07:07
to do better is there a is let me go
01:07:09
look online I'll go find some way to do
01:07:11
my job better thank you for letting me
01:07:13
know that I could do better on my job
01:07:15
this generation can't handle even the
01:07:17
modest amount of I shouldn't say all of
01:07:20
them but a large percentage of them have
01:07:22
so much anxiety they cannot operate in
01:07:24
the workplace okay so that that is
01:07:26
similar to what I hear a lot from from
01:07:29
people who are hiring young people but
01:07:31
let me suggest one slight variation that
01:07:33
you might try because a really good
01:07:34
thing about jensi is that they're not in
01:07:35
denial all the things you say about them
01:07:37
agree with what I say in the book I
01:07:38
think that's basically true but what I'm
01:07:41
finding in my teaching what I find in
01:07:43
general is that if you approach them in
01:07:45
the right way and you first of all they
01:07:47
have to understand the concept of
01:07:49
antifragility very easy to explain
01:07:51
chapter one of the codling American mind
01:07:53
if you go to the coding.com I have
01:07:55
chapter one we put it up there so that
01:07:56
everybody can use it send it around to
01:07:58
all your employees you know it's what
01:08:00
doesn't kill you actually makes you
01:08:01
stronger and you grow through adversity
01:08:04
and it's stoic wisdom and it's wisdom
01:08:06
around the world so if you have that
01:08:08
concept you're talking about it and then
01:08:09
you say to your new genz employees okay
01:08:11
now we can do this in two ways um one is
01:08:15
um since I really want you to be
01:08:17
successful in this job so I'm going to
01:08:19
tell you everything I think you're doing
01:08:21
wrong and I'm going to try to make you
01:08:23
better that's option one
01:08:26
option two is I can be really sensitive
01:08:28
about your feelings and really try to
01:08:29
make everything gentle and try never to
01:08:31
upset you which one do you want and I
01:08:36
guarantee you the great majority are
01:08:37
going to pick option one because they do
01:08:39
want to grow they recog they're not in
01:08:41
denial they're not defensive they're not
01:08:42
like no I'm not like that no like so so
01:08:46
um I especially would not I'm I'm not
01:08:49
giving up on on genz especially those
01:08:50
who are still in the early 20s um you
01:08:53
know because that's what I'm teaching at
01:08:54
NYU and they show incredible growth now
01:08:56
there it's exciting because they're
01:08:57
doing it together I have a class of 35
01:08:59
students we're doing it together but if
01:09:00
you have a a cohort you know if you if
01:09:02
you if you're selective in your hiring
01:09:04
and you try to avoid the ones who are
01:09:06
most you know showing the signs of the
01:09:08
the sort of you know the extreme
01:09:09
activism and the the um extreme
01:09:12
emotionality um if you have a group and
01:09:15
and you and you're explicit that you
01:09:17
want them to get stronger you want them
01:09:19
to succeed and that's why I'm going to
01:09:21
give you some harsh feedback I think
01:09:23
actually they they generally love it I I
01:09:26
I do think some number will rise to the
01:09:27
occasion I think it's really good advice
01:09:30
the other advice you know I'll just tell
01:09:32
you what people do practically in the
01:09:33
real world please hire three people
01:09:36
expect that one's going to be fired in
01:09:38
the first six weeks because they present
01:09:41
well in an interview but they're going
01:09:42
to have a panic attack uh where they're
01:09:44
just going to be don't have the work
01:09:47
ethic to be successful in an intense
01:09:49
field like venture capital or a venture
01:09:51
back startup so and then one will leave
01:09:55
um
01:09:55
because they're got rich parents and
01:09:57
they don't need to have the stress of
01:09:58
the job whatever and then whoever's left
01:10:01
that's the winner and so that's how
01:10:03
people are approaching this now is
01:10:04
hiring people on Project basis let's see
01:10:06
them do the work let's see if they can
01:10:08
maintain the intensity and that's really
01:10:10
is like if you weren't allowed if you
01:10:13
were monitored and helicopter parented
01:10:15
and you didn't go to the store on your
01:10:16
own and you didn't get lost and you
01:10:18
didn't have somebody steal your money or
01:10:21
you know you didn't get in a fight in
01:10:22
the schoolyard or you didn't play tag
01:10:24
and you know
01:10:25
didn't get picked for Dodgeball you got
01:10:27
smashed in DodgeBall and they bullied
01:10:29
you if you didn't have all those
01:10:31
experiences that are formative yeah
01:10:34
you're not going to survive in the
01:10:35
corporate world there's no time there's
01:10:36
no time to teach you how to you know get
01:10:40
smashed in the face you know with a with
01:10:42
a dodgeball you know that should have
01:10:44
happened in 12 12 years old it's uh it's
01:10:47
going to be tough for them I I think
01:10:48
you're doing God's work trying to get
01:10:50
them back on track well let's you know
01:10:52
let's hope that that parents and schools
01:10:54
realize you know the the truth of what
01:10:56
you're saying and we get to the point
01:10:58
where um you know college admissions and
01:11:01
hiring is not just going to go for the
01:11:03
high GPA and the full resume of
01:11:05
extracurricular activities they're going
01:11:07
to go for signs of being a free range
01:11:09
kid they're going go for signs that you
01:11:11
traveled alone you traveled on your own
01:11:13
for three months someplace you know when
01:11:14
you were 18 or 19 they're going to go
01:11:16
for signs that that you actually can
01:11:19
handle adversity yeah I'd like to see
01:11:22
your project work you know I see an myu
01:11:24
or Forida I see any Ivy League school
01:11:27
degree or something like that you're
01:11:28
going to think oh my God this person's
01:11:29
going to come here and start a union a
01:11:31
movement you know they're going to
01:11:33
distract everybody this is why coinbase
01:11:35
and other folks are just saying we're
01:11:36
here for this purpose if you're here
01:11:38
you're here for this Mission and this
01:11:39
purpose anything else you want to do on
01:11:41
your own time they your business but got
01:11:44
major major kudos to coinbase they were
01:11:45
the first one Armstrong he was the first
01:11:47
one to really put that out there and a
01:11:49
lot of companies follow yeah that's yeah
01:11:51
now now it's the standard hey you're
01:11:53
here you the random group there's like a
01:11:57
random channel on slack that is like one
01:11:59
of the default channels that's where
01:12:01
chaos occurs the first thing you got to
01:12:03
do is delete the random Channel there's
01:12:05
no random here we're here to work yeah
01:12:07
there's no you know side hustle random
01:12:11
you know your
01:12:12
politics whatever indigenous group uh
01:12:16
you know whatever group that you care
01:12:18
most about yeah that's called the
01:12:20
weekend we had a word for that in Gen X
01:12:23
that's your weekend at 5 o'l on Friday
01:12:25
you could start thinking about that the
01:12:27
rest of the week you're
01:12:29
focused anyway I'm old school Gen X I'm
01:12:32
old school
01:12:33
now it's so great to have you on here
01:12:35
the books uh coddling of the American
01:12:38
mind anxious generation and the first
01:12:40
two buy all four everybody that's the
01:12:43
message you should get here stop what
01:12:44
you're doing get the audio book books
01:12:46
are the greatest deal in the world 10 15
01:12:48
bucks you get a ton of knowledge and
01:12:50
hopefully this podcast inspires you
01:12:52
whether you're a parent educator or a
01:12:54
young person to just understand what's
01:12:55
going on here John you're a great guest
01:12:58
thanks so much guys I just want to put
01:12:59
in just a quick note to learn more go to
01:13:01
anxious generation.com is the website
01:13:03
for the book after babble.com is my
01:13:06
substock where we put a lot of research
01:13:07
a lot of writing and letg grow.org is an
01:13:10
incredible organization that we created
01:13:12
with I skazi to give parents like you
01:13:16
more help more ideas in how to give your
01:13:18
kids a free range I have been all over
01:13:20
that website lots of great ideas there
01:13:23
yeah so I hope if there any
01:13:24
philanthropist in the audience who are
01:13:25
willing we we were it's a tiny little
01:13:27
organization we could do so much more if
01:13:29
we had some money and could hire some
01:13:30
hire more staff so now let grow.org
01:13:35
fantastic let your kids grow exactly
01:13:38
exactly and let us know what you think
01:13:40
of the all-in interview everybody who's
01:13:41
a fan uh John you are amazing great
01:13:44
guest thank you thank so much
01:13:48
[Music]
01:13:51
guys I'm going all in
